Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us

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There are three major questions that we must ask; and I would like to emphasize very strongly that, in my judgment, we need to ask them precisely in the right order:

(1) What do I owe the person who differs from me?
(2) What can I learn from the person who differs from me?
(3) How can I cope with the person who differs from me?

1 Thessalonians 2
1For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

2But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, [u]we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.[/u]

When it comes to the Gospel, as there is only ONE Gospel.....I would say...count it all Joy when you are reviled, hated, heckled for contending for it.

To Contend for the [u]faith[/u] means the Gospel.

What **other faith** ;-) could anyone be referring to?

What do I owe the person who differs from me?

The Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth...so help me God!

And if you don't receive any contention...:-? Something is very very wrong.

But our new *Humanism approach to peaching the Gospel is to check in with self first, apply worldly principles of psycho-babbel, and when you have the world eating out of your hand...you are on your way to becoming the next Movie Star Christian!!!

Katy

roadsign wrote:

more here: [url=http://www.founders.org/FJ33/article3.html]Polemic Theology: How to deal with those who differ from us [/url]

I went over the entire article today and found it very, very good. Really, everyone here on SI that takes place in active discussions [b]should[/b] read this article and at the very [i]least[/i] pray about incorporating some of these principles into the discussions that take place here on SI. I feel like I have a [i]long[/i] ways to go in learning how to properly deal with those who differ with me, but this article has helped me to see where my weak points are and what I need to work on.

Thank you, Diane, for sharing this! I'm so glad you did! :-D

~Joy

Hi Paul,

I've been thinking about your definition of the box, and I think yours is more like the Ark. The people in the Ark were alive (still\\already), because of faith.

I think they were the ones who gladly thought outside the 'box' of David's reflection, in which the people who need [i]revival[/i] need to be willing to leave their carnal thinking (mindset\\box), and get into God's thinking\\mindset.

Although I've never heard the point made within the context of [i]revival[/i], that the 'religious' may be 'offended', I've certainly heard it preached here at home in the context of evangelism. Reading from John 15, the evangelist said 'If we love one another as it says here, and go out and preach the gospel, [i]knives will be out for us[/i]'. He was referring to maliciou opposition from other local [i]Christian[/i] groups.

To be honest, although I was shocked, I was also encouraged to believe God.

[u][b]1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us WISDOM from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption [/b][/u]

Proverbs 8
1Doth not [u][b]wisdom[/b][/u] cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

[u][b]11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. [/b][/u]

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Katy

psalm1 wrote:
Paul West, your insults and belittling.....I hope you are doing that for yourself because those things dont impress me.

Too bad you see the working and power of the Holy Spirit with such disdain.

do you also see Elisha catching the mantle of Elijah as a cheap superman trick?

the 5 wise virgins were wise due to the fullness of their lamps.

the oil is a type of the Holy Spirit.

But why would someone forbid or belittle anyone seeking oil?

David

Too bad you see the working and power of the Holy Spirit with such disdain.

Is that so, Paul?

In any case, there is no question whatever here, of treating the workings of the Spirit with distain, but there [i]is[/i] disagreement on whether certain things [i]are[/i] the workings of the Holy Spirit or not.

the 5 wise virgins were wise due to the fullness of their lamps.

As indeed happened. They made it to the Feast because they had not only oil, (as you say, representing the Holy Spirit), but a store for the dark days and nights of waiting that came before his return to claim his bride.

That's what we will need in the times that are ahead.

And we have to be sure that the oil is unmixed with anything else.

We all know what happens if the fuel we put in our cars is contaminated.

This I think is Paul's concern, not to reject all the workings of the Spirit, but to recognise the conterfeit "bad oil" that could dim our lamps permanently.

in Him

Jeannette

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

roadsign wrote:
Who does not encounter from time to time people who are not in complete agreement?

2 Timothy 2:23-25

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Psalm 35:1
Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

Isaiah 41:11
Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.

Matthew 12:19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

We are called upon by the Lord to contend earnestly for the faith (Jude 3). That does not necessarily involve being contentious; but it involves avoiding compromise, standing forth for what we believe, standing forth for the truth of God--without welching at any particular moment.

I drafted a warm, accepting, "lets be friends" sort of reply, but the Lord wouldn't let me send it.

In the end He enabled me to send a (hopefully) gracious response, but one that still made it absolutely clear that there was to be [i]no compromise whatsoever[/i] in the area of Truth.

For one like myself, who had a real phobia of any kind of conflict or unpleasantness, this was a big victory!

Among other things, the Lord reminded me of the two good kings, Jehoshaphat and Hezekiah. Both really nice guys (if a king can be called that!), and true men of God. Yet they compromised and made leagues with their enemies, and with the enemies of their nation, and, more disastrously, with enemies of God.

Indeed, Isaiah's words to Hezekiah, after he'd received the Babylonian envoys and showed them all his treasures, seem to imply that Hezekiah's compromise with Babylon was at least in part the cause of the Babylonian captivity! And I was on the verge of opening my heart, as Hezekiah did his treasures, to an "envoy of Babylon", because I was so thrilled at the prospect of reconciliation!

There's such a fine line between contending for the faith in a right spirit and compromise, or contending wrongly.

May the Lord give us all boldness, wisdom, grace, discernment and clarity in these things!

Amen!

Jeannette

A deception with consequences

In Joshua 9, Joshua was proceeding to conquer the land promised to Israel as God had commanded him to do. He was proceeding as directed to kill all of the inhabitants of that land. In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel. Please make note of this important fact: they are lying through their teeth! In verse 14, it says that Joshua and his men looked at them and were convinced that they were telling them the truth because of their appearance and the condition of their food and garments. The bible says they “didn’t even inquire of the Lord.” Instead, vs. 15 says Joshua and his leaders “made a peace covenant with them.”
Immediately after this, someone found out that they were not from far away as they had implied; instead, they were from just over the hill. Joshua and his men then realized they had been lied to. You would think Joshua and his men would have risen up and killed all of them for their lies, and for making them look very foolish. You would think they would have said, like many today would say, “We didn’t know what we were doing. They fooled us.” But vs. 18 says, “And the children of Israel smote them not because the princes of the congregation had sworn.

Now, to clarify that the Gibeonites NEVER became part of Israel, but became *servants*,to Israel not brethren. They did not inherit any land.

History will tell the end of this story.

My understanding is that the Gibeonites were always a pain in the neck to Israel, but because this covenant was made by an oath ( be careful of what and who you allow in your life. If there was originally to be an exception for the Gibeonites, the Lord would have said so from the beginning…He did not!.) ) and God honored that oath the princes of the congregation made

…….but it came back to bite them all.

2 Samuel 21:1
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

2 Samuel 21:2
And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)

2 Samuel 21:3
Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?

2 Samuel 21:4
And the Gibeonites said unto him, We will have no silver nor gold of Saul, nor of his house; neither for us shalt thou kill any man in Israel. And he said, What ye shall say, that will I do for you.)

They asked for Saul's 7 sons in retribution!

2 Samuel 21:9
And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.

Katy

Hi Paul,

(I began writing this some hours ago, and have been distracted, during which time the conversation has moved on; however I think I shall complete and post what I had prepared, by way of expanding our communication generally.)

I think we were saying the same thing, and I'd like to share with you how I come to that conclusion, because perhaps it will help us get to know each other a bit more, and only for that reason. Ahead of this short explanation though, let me explain something you would never guess unless I share it unsolicited. When I was in that church I refer to as cultish, I was under constant attack by the leader for my use of English in terms such as 'swallowed a dictionary again', and, (in some ways this next point is more important), when I attributed [u]to the Lord[/u] what He was doing for me, I was told it couldn't have been God, or, everyone (else) knows that (aspect of truth already, except you (me), of course), and, various terms of reference were banned (for me personally), even if I heard others using them (including the accuser) [i]all the time[/i]. This had the desired effect on me, namely to [i]not[/i] give God the glory, and to [i]not[/i] mention Jesus Christ if it could be avoided.

Now..... baring oneself to the world on a Christian website (SI), and not knowing who is going to fall like a ton of bricks from on cyberhigh on some phrase one uses accidentally triggering an adverse spiritual reaction from others, I have developed a very passive way of expressing my thoughts, including the use of biblical metaphor without very much explanation (in this case 'Ark'). People will either get it or they won't. I could not number the excellent and spiritual sermons I heard in 3D, while having no personal comprehension of what was [i]really[/i] being said. So, it doesn't bother me that not everyone understands everything I say, and, I enjoy being challenged by what I hear from others, which [i]I[/i] don't understand.

But, I do depend on the Spirit to connect me to people. This is the bond of unity which we are to endeavour to maintain. As long as that is being nurtured, the matter of teasing out what was in a person's heart when they chose the words they used to try to convey it, is just one of the extenuations of using a keyboard. I remind myself that a short post from anone who doesn't touch-type, may have taken quite a long time to write, and its content has been shrunk to the key point they wish to contribute for others to consider.

Getting back to faith, and Ark, I'm sure I don't need to tell you the Ark is a type of Christ, and it took faith to get in; whichever way you look at the underlying truth. The comparason of boxes I realised afterwards, might better have been put in the term MikeB is fond of - the 'fallen cranium' - to represent those who are not (yet) thinking with the mind of Christ, even though they may make a religious presentation to the world.

I'm sure that in the things I've said here so far, we are barely talking about 'polemic theology'; but, let's acknowledge the process on which we all have embarked. Hearing of the dear brother from a pentecostal church childhood, who eventually settled in the Russian Orthodox church (in the UK) because it gave opportunity for the contemplative aspect of our faith, and, of your gradual migration to a more biblical creed, and, knowing my own shocking transition from forms of worship which required mostly mute participation, to ones in which I was ready to share my bread every week, it's clear [i]change[/i] is a necessary manifestation of [i]growth[/i], if we are to become the people [u]God[/u] wants us to be.

In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel.

How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood? I believe a christian can be decieved into thinking they are being holy but are in fact self righteous for example. They have a spirit but it's not of God but they can be misled into thinking that it is God. Usually other people are the first to notice it but the one who is decieved becomes comfortable with it and can even justify it in their own mind. I see it happen all the time.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

David, Yes, the oil is a TYPE of the Holy Spirit...period.

And Yes I also agree what you are saying about BOX here......

Many today speak truth by the Holy Spirit, but those in their own little BOX of self defined doctrines/denominations actually *muzzle the OZ*.

We have on other threads the issue of [u][b]Grace[/b][/u]VS Law. The Holy Spirit certainly doesn't anoint LAW.

The word was full of Grace and Truth.....and is called in Hebrews 10...*the Spirit of Grace*.

It was this Spirit of [u][b]Grace[/b][/u] that was rejected by the Pharisees, of which Jesus rebuked, stating, that sin against Him would be forgiven, however sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

Why, because it is by this GRACE we are Saved, and to reject Grace is to reject salvation.

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the [u][b]Grace[/b][/u] of God was upon him.

Yet those who are still thinking inside their own boxes are rebuking those who have jumped outside the box of Law, and Jumped into the Box of Grace + Nothing.....by faith....

Katy

Psalm18 wrote:

In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel.

How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood? I believe a christian can be decieved into thinking they are being holy but are in fact self righteous for example. They have a spirit but it's not of God but they can be misled into thinking that it is God. Usually other people are the first to notice it but the one who is decieved becomes comfortable with it and can even justify it in their own mind. I see it happen all the time.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ezekiel 14:4
4Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

According to my interpretation of this verse if a christian has an idol in thier heart and they refuse to repent God will allow them for a time atleast to believe that what they have in their heart is from God. Of course in time they will get sick of their idol and realize it is not of God and hopefully give it up.

You can only plead with someone for so long and than the Lord has to chasten them.

Now, to enter the discussion a little more deeply on the matter of religiosity, there must be many of us who were desperate to experience God in a deeper way, who either brought a church-going background to our apparent Christian testimony, or who quickly acquired one so that we didn't lose the approval of those with whom we attempted to have fellowship. Yet, amongst that group of outwardly Christian witnesses (by the church-going and the attendance at church activities), ther are those who are not in the least interested in knowing God for themselves if they can wield power within the organisation. It's not until there's a bit of heat, though, that the true hearts begin to show.

Observing this over the years has really left a bad taste in my mouth when I hear of "gifts" in Pentecostal circles.

but I will continue to warn against charismatic superficiality, and do all I can to prevent debatings on such and vain jangling from prevailing here.

I can appreciate very much Brother Paul's remarks (coming from a similar background in the Church of God) regarding the direction of what was once a dynamic movement of God which started first and foremost as a hungering and thirsting for personal holiness and total surrender to God, but ... has been emphasized almost to the exclusion of those repeated commands to take up the cross, and self-denial, and to have a servant's heart

Think of me as just a loving brother trying to exhort others to "say in the center of the road", and not veer too much to the left or right.

Have you ever had a PM from someone who said something like this... [i]I want to let you know what I think about your post in such and such a thread, privately, in case you think I'm stupid, because if I post in the thread, everyone will [b]know[/b] I am[/i]...? Well, it's been a while, but I have, and recently I've been thinking about all the great brethren and sisters who came here once or twice, and posted pure truth, full of faith and encouragement, and then vanished again. [i]Where are you all?[/i]

It was on my mind to share with you that in my experience of 'the charismatic movement' in the UK, there is, yes, a variety, and I don't go along with everything. But, God seems to put up with a lot, seeing He sees everyone's true hearts.

The cross, Romans 6, new birth and being a new creation was at the very centre of the theology which I mostly sat under in house-churches. 'Gifts' were deemed to be the natural outworking of a life surrendered to God, in obedience to Christ as Lord and filled with the Spirit. But, even when my life did not look like that, God still sought to encourage me with the power of His Spirit to work in me, to bring down the strongholds and exalt Christ as King over me, and to use me in the lives of others.

I believe the body here will never develop beyond a large amorphous bundle, if we keep on crushing every move towards differentiation (of member parts), made by the Spirit. A mature body has clear parts, joined in function through [u]the Head[/u]. True, some parts are joined to and dependant one upon another (such as the forearm supplies power to the wrist), but, there is clear division (for instance, between the hands and the feet), which enables the body to deliver that for which it was created. We need to [u]trust[/u] [b]the Lord[/b] and not [i]fear[/i] the effect of allowing others to mature in [i]their[/i] calling, even if we [i]think[/i] have outgrown that stage ([i]always a risky conclusion, in my view[/i]).

This is a continuation of my previous post, just in case anyone wonders. MrBillPro you explain that stuff about the Holy Spirit opening scripture to our understanding like no-one else I know. Amen!

psalm1 said

There is no possible way to add polluted oil into the parable.

Look at scripture ! History repeats itself .....they accused Jesus of having polluted oil."he casts out Satan by the power of satan"

"he healed the sick on the sabbath! Everyone knows he cant be of God. No real man of God would break Gods law like that"

So we have it today....to be outside the box like Jesus incurs the ire of the religious establishment.

[color=6633FF]1 John 2 (3 - 14)

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [i](but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also[/i].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [i]even[/i] eternal life.
26 These [i]things[/i] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. [/color]

I want also to say in the passing, that however far from sound manifestation of the Holy Spirit people claiming to be charismatic have drifted or been dragged by false shepherds, the word 'charisma' is scriptural; the 'charismata' (as you know), being [i]the graces[/i] bestowed by the Spirit, and I would want here in SI, the word 'charismatic' to be given its original meaning, when arising in our discussions, just as we would want to re-instate the [u]biblical[/u] definition of [i]faith[/i], where it has been hijacked by the Word of Faith movement.

I'm pretty easy going now, having been quite the opposite during the days when I was trying to pull my life into some sort of order, and will-power was very much required to get anything done at all, but it bothers me greatly when genuine questions about biblical ministry are sidelined by those to whom they are not especially relevant because different callings and opportunities rest on their lives.

I realise that in posting all this, I may be a long way behind where the conversation has got to. Thanks for your patience, everyone.

EDIT: Thanks, Paul, for the acknowledgement. I don't know how anyone reading could possibly have guessed the 'where' you are coming from, [i]before[/i] you posted the explanations of your reasons for using the language you chose. I have been taught to reason as the others have put forward, using scriptural language as the common denominator. Normally, thinking 'outside the box' is leaving the confines of received natural wisdom or training. I do completely see your resistance to any interpretation which in meaning seeks to draw men away from sound doctrine and rest in Christ.

How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood?

It applies very much to Christians today!

Leaven, we are warned by Jesus ..***beware of the leaven of the Pharisees***

Again by Paul....

God does not work through the flesh, as the law was for the flesh...pointing to SIN, and our schoolmaster as well.

Yet so many want to legalize GRACE, or co-mingle the two. You are correct, it is spiritual warefare when these two completely different doctrines are at war, just as was in Jesus time.

Legalism is one of the greatest enemies to the Church today...

Beware!
1 Corinthians 5:6
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth(RUINS) the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Katy

Katy-did wrote:

How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood?

It applies very much to Christians today!

Leaven, we are warned by Jesus ..***beware of the leaven of the Pharisees***

Again by Paul....

God does not work through the flesh, as the law was for the flesh...pointing to SIN, and our schoolmaster as well.

Yet so many want to legalize GRACE, or co-mingle the two. You are correct, it is spiritual warefare when these two completely different doctrines are at war, just as was in Jesus time.

Legalism is one of the greatest enemies to the Church today...

Beware!
1 Corinthians 5:6
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth(RUINS) the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Katy

Amen, I agree I just wanted to get your view on it.

Hello again Paul,

Please don't take my contribution to this thread as if it is directed solely at you. I've been following it from the beginning; also, have been in more than one thread with David, where raising the dead has been discussed. I'm British. I've heard about revivals going off the rails, and I don't know anyone who thinks it's a good thing when they do. Honestly, as per the article, I'm trying to understand your sweeping dismissal of a command of Christ 'Raise the dead', which dismissal seems to be on the basis that certain charismatics have over-egged the proverbial pudding. The question is, (surely,) how do we know when to raise the dead, or not raise them; which begs any questions about faith in action (works)?

I utterly reject this notion. What I did, Mr. Bill and Linn, is invert the discussion to demonstrate that the true "box" could be a quiet life in Christ, in all balance and proportion to scripture, and I'm showing that being "in the box" in this respect may not be a bad thing at all. The other camp purports that we must "step out of the box" if we want to "fulfill our destiny" (I have no idea what that means), but the box they are encouraging to "step out of" must be regarded as safer than the area we are told to step into, if only by virtue of the litmus test they place upon certain manifestations for "being in the Spirit".

I am simply proposing my view with a twist: from inside the very box charismatics would call me out of! I already know what is "outside the box" and I've seen enough to know how it much it greviously misses the mark.

I would rather call them back into the box of sound doctrine where there is safety, security, growth, and an increasing knowledge of God's ways. Stepping out of the box in this regard is stepping into unsound doctrine and polluted waters.

I do accept you don't have to address David's point, now that you've clarified what [i]you[/i] meant, but, it would be interesting to hear a more detailed account of your understanding of Christ's command in respect of raising the dead, cleansing lepers, casting out demons (and so on), by way of justifying your rejection of David's comments. Would that be possible?

Please, let's not bring up psychology, as I've noticed each time I engage in a discussion hinging on a disagreement with someone here you invariably join in to make a case against what I am doing.

By the way, I don't 'invariably join in to make a case against what [you are] doing'. I'm not even challenging you confronationally. I'm simply reflecting back some of the meaning of what you've already said, but in a qualified way. I realise that can be annoying for anyone who writes how they would normally speak - where immediate misunderstandings are sorted out on the wing, as it were. Whereas posting is not so simple, and here, I know I don't join all the threads where you post. I pick up on some of what you say because it is extremely one-sided. Also, because I would like to communicate with you in a meaningful way, if that's possible.

psalm1 wrote:
Quote:

the 5 wise virgins were wise due to the fullness of their lamps.
-------------------------------------------------No, they were wise because they also had spare oil with then in a vessel. This was in case the night of watching and waiting for the Bridegroom proved too long for their lamps to last out.

As indeed happened. They made it to the Feast because they had not only oil, (as you say, representing the Holy Spirit), but a store for the dark days and nights of waiting that came before his return to claim his bride.
--------------------------------------------------------
OK I say oil is a type of the Holy Spirit and you say No.

Then you say it is a type but not like you say it?

I was thinking of the oil in the lamps as representing a [i][b]"temporary"[/b][/i], supply of the Spirit, that one might get in lively meetings, or special seasons of blessing that we may experience.

But what happens when the blessing fades?

That is when we need an extra supply of "oil" - indeed a constant supply (see below)

Read the parable, (my emphasis):

[color=990000]1 ¶ Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But [b][i][u]the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps[/u][/i][/b].
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.[/color]

Dear David, the Bridegroom came at "midnight". In other words, a time where there will seem to be be no blessing, no revival, no sign of light; indeed as Amos says, a famine of even the word of the Lord.

Surely these "wise virgins" are spoken of in Daniel 12:3

[color=990000]3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.[/color]

In John's Gospel the Spirit is likened to water:

John 7:38 [color=990000] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow [i][b]rivers[/b][/i] of living water.[/color]

Rivers are supposed to flow [i]constantly[/i]; an even stronger indication that there is need for a greater supply of the Holy Spirit that can be contained in one feeble "oil lamp".

Thus, in Ps 104:16 those who "drink constantly of the Holy Spirit are likened to trees:

[color=990000] The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;[/color]

And your own Psalm 1:
[color=990000]1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 [b][i]And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.[/i][/b][/color]

and Jeremiah 17:7-8
[color=990000]7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
8 For [i][b]he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.[/b][/i][/color]

Take all these things together (other scriptures keep coming to mind but the above are probably enough!) and a picture begins to emerge - of those who are not merely filled with the Holy Spirit but who flow in a constant supply of the Spirit; even in the darkest, hardest times; those who are rooted in Him, and never depart, and whose supply therefore never runs dry.

Isn't that what you want? I do.

I'm not talking of quenching the Holy Spirit - far from it! I'm talking of "rivers of living water, a greater and constant supply that will carry us through anything we may have to face in this life!

When I used to go to conferences as a fairly young believer I lived from one conference to teh next. I was dependant on the spiritual "boost" they supplied and thought it was impossible to do without them; that my faith would weaken unless regularly boosted through the ministries of godly speakers, and the blessing and "atmosphere" at such gatherings.

Returning home after a conference used to feel so flat, and the sense of blessing would pop like a soap-bubble in almost no time.

But in recent years the importance of this external source of supply has lessened, as I have gradually (with many stumbles, and days of apparent "failure" even now) begun to learn to rely on the Lord for my daily Supply of the Spirit.

This is basically what I was talking about all along.

...There is another misunderstanding that maybe needs clearing up. As you said, "polluterd Holy Spirit" is an oxymoron. But that wasn't actually what I meant at all. Rather than adding to the parable of the ten virgins, I was using a parabolic illustration of my own.

Not being as good at parables as Jesus, maybe it wasn't clear enough!

As you said, the [i]Holy Spirit[/i] can't be polluted, but [i][u]we[/u][/i] can. For example, if we allow "self" to intrude, rather than walking in the Spirit, or if we receive another spirit that is [i]not[/i] the Holy Spirit.

The latter was Paul's concern I think, and has been my concern too, because the wilder manifestations seen in some of the movements you mentioned seem no different from the actions of someone manifesting a demon!

Love in Jesus

jeannette

I would rather call them back into the box of sound doctrine where there is safety, security, growth, and an increasing knowledge of God's ways. Stepping out of the box in this regard is stepping into unsound doctrine and polluted waters.

Paul manifested both the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and he set forth to the Gentile churches the things that you and I embrace inside the box of sound doctrine.

I do understand what you are saying in regards to what Charismatics have embraced, but do we negate the power of God because certain men have crept in unawares have led many astray thru their "signs and wonders"?

I know your answer would be no.

As a general rule most of the Church should live a holy and quiet life before God and man. Then there are those whom God calls for a specific purpose where they have to step outside that box because even those that are in the box don't understand them.

Billy Graham wasn't always a meek and mild speaker as he is today. In his hayday, he was radical. Billy Sunday was another loud mouth. We have no idea what Moody was all about or even Charles Spurgen. But when the fire of God is in your bosom and you need to speak that message out, your not going to be like everyone else. But they are no different then you or I, whether we are in the box or out of the box, we are all one in Christ Jesus our LORD. Each are where they are at, as God has called them to be.

For me, I like to be both in the box and out of the box.

Matthew 12:20

20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Praise God, those who are Born of the Spirit of the Life of Christ, have been sealed until the day of redemption.

Oh Dear Saints, Remember this promise and cling to it! He will never leave you or forsake you!

Katy

Hi Paul,

Hi Linn. Do we even read each other's posts before replying? I mean really read them?

Raising the dead, laughing revivals? [b]Friend, I agree we should throw these out.[/b]

That's really all I want to say, seeing we all think we believe in apostolic Christianity. I don't know how any of us can take the controversy out of that.... Better get used to it, and learn to stick together while we have the leisure to get to know one another.

Hi Paul,

I thought we were all in this together. Seriously. All threads are linear. Yes, you replied to David and I joined in later. My comment about placcation was to do with your response to me on this page.

Now, going back to p1, there has been a simple misunderstanding. If you look at what preceded David's 'throw out' comment, it did not mean 'let's discard'.

He said:

'Wow i have arrived !! finally a home! An actual thread where i am welcome!!
Where do we start???

Lets throw out some possibilities;'

Does this sound as if he was [i]discarding[/i] topics - or, was he [u]suggesting[/u] them?

Diane, I know you can't see what's going on in my ears, but I am listening very carefully to my brother Paul. Perhaps that's the trouble.

Diane, my heart is racing because I feel as though I am stepping on Holy ground by entering your thread - but I need to let out what is in me stronger than life itself.
I downloaded your article as soon as you posted it.

I can't post anymore after this post - but the Holy ground I feel on this thread and where I feel it's trying to draw us to, is to 'no one' or 'nothing but' [b]HIMSELF~JESUS.[/b]

That is why certain ministries have attracted me so. Such as Chip's - Art Katz' - Richard Wurmbrand and so forth and even my own local Church.

"[u]CHRISTOCENTRIC[/u]"

This is what I pray and have been praying since I first came in 2005.

It's NOT about "us" --- and when we see that it is "Not all about us" or "Not about us at all" - then Glory-Forever when HE and HE Only is lifted up.

This quoted post and thread link is not about me - though I know for most, I didn't have to say that.

This is what I pray for this year again. [b]JUST GIVE ME JESUS ![/b]

Brother Everett, right now I'm so caught up in JESUS, all day praying for them up in Canton has got me in tears.

[b]WE NEED JESUS!!![/b]

Brother I can barely speak. Reading what Apollos wrote yesterday and knowing what it is to have HIM allow us to actually sit with HIM in HIS Presence is beyond words. So many days, I've turned to Him and merely whispered, are You there for me to be with and talk to and HE was always faithful to be there and allow me - a wretch like me - to feel like I was part of His Bride. What on earth could be more unimaginable than that?

JESUS-JESUS-JESUS - there is nothing else.

Until we come to the complete end of ourselves and HE allows us to be stripped of everything and we're left to do nothing but cleave to HIM for our very life - we'll only give birth to the wind.

Help me pray brother - Bring JESUS and nothing and no one else to us.

That we'll know HIM and how to come into HIS Presence when we are alone. And take HIM with us when we leave.

Oh just give us JESUS Dear GOD.

Let our Love for HIM increase to the point where we can barely stand it or contain it - without saying HIS Name again and again and again.

Just give us JESUS. Nothing else will do. Nothing else is REAL. No other words but HIS are Real or Reality.

OH JESUS WE LOVE YOU. Please hear the cries of your Saints Dear LORD. Please hear their cries Precious Savior Lord and GOD.
We Love YOU.

GOD Bless you.
Just give us Jesus.

Anne

AMEN!!! Annie and Dom, thank you!

… we owe it to our opponents to deal with them in such a way that they may sense that we have a real interest in them as persons, that we are not simply trying to win an argument or show how smart we are, but that we are deeply interested in them--and are eager to learn from them as well as to help them.

Diane, much of this article is based on humanism...political correctness, now being pushed off in the Church as well as the world.

I do see however this idea used to bring together Protestants and Catholics....Mormons and Christians through friendly dialogue.

I also remember a very good comment on another thread when someone asked how to witness to a Muslum....answer......don't go off on rabbit trails...stick right to the heart of salvation...SIN.

This article is written by a Reformed Theologian, and the real JIST of this article is how Calvinists and Arminians can work things out.

I know the greatest **pick up line** Calvinists use is....""Ask me a quetion and I will answer it for you"".

I do believe when the HOLY SPIRIT is in control, we speak SCRIPTURE, and Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE.(((nothing about ours))

Sorry Folks......We compare Spiritual with Spiritual, and some things are non-negotiable.

Then we have one who may have spiritually grown out of some silly ideas, and now because of this *what ever you call it*** article ..... apologizing ...but not for his spiritual growth I hope.

Don't put your faith in the wisdom of men...but in the power of God!!!!

Katy

You can speak scripture all you like and still give no evidence of the Holy Spirit's control. In fact, it proves just the opposite far too often

Mike, I agree. But I said [u]when the Holy Spirit is in control[/u]

Katy

Katy, I'm just curious, do you think that there is anything at all in this article that is salveable for yourself, personally?

Quote from article:

The first thing that I should be prepared to learn is that I may be wrong and the other person may be right. Obviously, this does not apply to certain basic truths of the faith like the Deity of Christ or salvation by grace.

Lets take this point for example.

Calvinists have a very DIFFERENT understanding of Salvation by Grace. AND according to Nicole, to a Calvinist...according to *Calvin* beliefs....to them this is non...negotiable.

I believe in Salvation by Grace through faith, but NOT Calvinism.

You will also see on many threads here extensive dialogue between these two groups that has NEVER ended with a Calvinist saying....gee, maybe I'm wrong. They will never...and according to this comment...they will never!

So, we see all else is built on this foundation correct?

I believe in eternal security, but not Calvinism.

Diane, many BIBLE Believing Christians believe in their eternal security based on scripture, not Calvinism. Abram Cooper III is one.

What I saw here was interesting. You posted a place where anything goes ((according to some who took this thread that way.... Quote: Now I've found a place where I am welcome,..... and used it to push an agenda....and used this article as his defence not to be challenged.

Is this what you wanted to accomplish?

Personally, I believe anyone who tries to raise the dead...after their souls have passed to either to be with the Lord, or held in hades, can NOT be summonsed back to enter back into their bodies. I call that witchcraft.

Jesus said *I AM* the resurrection, and blessed are those who have part of the First Resurrection.

I will not negotiate THAT belief with anyone either. Sorry David, I love you, but are you raising a dead person without their soul? or isn't this getting in tough with the departed called sourcery, mediums? Isn't this what they do at those 1-900 numbers, palm readers, cristal bowl peepers....

My understanding about these raised people is no one can find them to interview!

Katy

PS, but according to this author only the Deity of Christ and salvation by Grace is non negotiable.

There are many things non-negotiable....and what do I owe someone .....lengthy conversations? No I owe them scripture....

Paul said OWE NO MAN anything, but to love one another.

He also said in Galatians concerning the Lawyers.....not even for one minute!

Katy said

Personally, I believe anyone who tries to raise the dead...after their souls have passed to either to be with the Lord, or held in hades, can NOT be summonsed back to enter back into their bodies. I call that witchcraft.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=21670&forum=48&start=90&viewmode=flat&order=0]Bush launches key Mid-East tour to last ONE WEEK[/url]

Katy,

I do accept how you feel about this topic and I don't pretend to understand it fully, but, I believe there is a world of difference between people calling up dead spirits (without their bodies), as the witch of Endor did, and what Elijah, Jesus, Peter (at least), and possibly other apostles (including Paul) did, during their ministries. How do you interpret the raising to life which God has done since then?

EDIT: What I mean is, for instance... in the middle of p6 of this thread, PaulWest recalls Smith Wigglesworth's testimony, even

one of raising an embalmed body from the dead at a funeral parlor.

How do you interpret the raising to life which God has done since then?

Can you prove through scripture these raised were 6 feet under? Or possibly just passing. We also have in our day Doctors who can bring a patient back to life...however none have ever confessed they came back from hell or were asleep in the Lord.

I don't see any scripture where teh Apostles were taken to graveyards and raised anyone ancestors.

So we do need to put things into perspective.

Those spoken in Luke, one group on the side called Abraham's bosom, and the other...hades, state no one return back, or even could send messages back.

Here is what the Bible says:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men [u]once to die[/u], but after this the judgment:

Chris, to your reply or question or comment. I am sorry that comment hurt you. But this is not even my question or comment, but a comment coming from many many who have been HURT by the teachings of Calvinism.....

I also believe, if not in this thread but maybe a post later was based on those who BOYCOTT revivals wearing T Shirts that say...NO CHOICE.

So, I would have to read the WHOLE conversation in it's original context.

Katy

Can you prove through scripture these raised were 6 feet under?

It is you who has introduced the '6 feet under' clause. But that is not in scripture. The closest to come to this are Lazarus and Jesus, who had been formally laid in their tombs.

At no time have David or myself advocated the digging up of bodies.

To me the Box is the "law"

Here is a beginning quote from this article:

Christians have not managed in many cases to win over their opponents

Now, what and who are the **opponents**...the unsaved or the saved?

Diane, not wanting to dig up more dead weight here but here is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. On another subject (two maybe more posted here on the sabbath) but that thread was concerning the sabbath as being Saturday, to be kept.

Yet we see Paul's words here say we are to be fully persuaded [u]in our own mind[/u].

Taking a closer look at this, would you say that some things are based upon PERSONAL Conviction, and don't need to be undermined by someone elses Theology?

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded [u]in his own mind[/u].

Somethings we don't need to let others make up our minds for us.

We're not all going to agree on many issues..especially in today's world of Christianity. With Apostasy on the rise, the Emergent Church, those who throw out those who adhear to the Truths of scripture are called the troublemakers. Be that as it may. Maybe that's the MARKS of the Lord Jesus we bare in our bodies.

(( Never to be ashamed of))

You see, many want **their mark** upon you. A Trophy they seemed to have won over to their theological stand point. This is what this article says to me. It's not about preaching the Gospel...but Theology....

Added:

Galatians 6:13
[u]For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.[/u]

This ol game has been around for sometime now.

That's why we have many diferent denominations. Due to Theological differences. The reason it is so, is because these issues could not be ironed out to begin with.

We need the wisdom of God to know the difference between the Doctrine of Jesus Christ, doctrines of demons, and the doctrines of men.

Jude says beware of those who sneak in unaware.

2nd & 3rd John says...don't even let them in the door.

Katy

PS and as you see, that issue was not resolved by either side. AND I thoroughly believe it NEVER will.

Hello Diane,

God bless you, too, sister. :-)

First, let me say I'm not replying to your previous posts to me, or to Paul's, until I've settled on the best way to do that, overall.

Does this not come very close to the language of inclusivism...

I thought 'inclusivism' meant we all have to [i]give up some[/i] of what we believe, to come a bit closer ('water down' according to Mr Obama) to each others' views. Or, would my definition of the word be a shifting of the original goal posts? (And would we be surprised if it is?)

Linn, I too seem to understand that the same as you. And I thoroughly agree with what you said here.

What we do see happening is a melting down and meshing together through this type of article.

MY comments Diane were based on what I have seen here on SI with many discussions of many topics.

I also used an example of a subject that has NEVER been resolved, not only here but out there as well. Does that make ME a cynic? No actually a realist.

This article is one man's opinion, and is not added into the Bible as ordained by God. It can be used in a good way as well as a bad way.

It's not my fault Protestant mean to protest Catholicism. They separated themselves based on irreconcilable differences.

But now we do see this approach used opening dialogue . Has this weakened the CHURCH? I do believe it has.

Now there is different stages of spiritual growth….and we are called to MATURITY. That’s non-negotiable. Those aren’t the opponents I believe this article is speaking to.

One thing I do find interesting as well. *This article* should not be held over anyone’s head as a club to bring anyone into submission for boldly stating personal conviction…that has been stated by many a Godly Pastor TODAY.

Katy

crsschk said

there is no need for any of us to be speaking in his stead

I linked to the old thread to try to avoid it, but for the sake of those who might think the digging up of bodies had been advocated by those in the previous discussion[u]s[/u] - going back beyond the linked thread - I believe it was necessary to mention it here most clearly, especially since 'raising the dead' has been one of the balls in this conversation.

Diane asked:

These all seem to portray a tone of decided defeat. Or is the reason you are not delving into the article, even in order to use any of it to prove your point, is that it is uncharted territory for you?

Actually No Diane,

Is Paul here stating defeat?

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

It's important to know who considers you an opponent. If a Calvinist considers me the opponent who wants to win me over.....can't be done.

Does that make them the defeated?

I hope so!!!

We are more then conquers In Christ Jesus....overcoming anything that is NOT of Christ!

Katy

Excellent Bill! The Holy Spirit IS our Teacher, the is HIS ministry. HE will lead us into all truth.

Here is what Scripture tells us concerning those who [u]oppose themselves[/u].

2 Timothy 2:20-29

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that [u]oppose themselves[/u]; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Katy

Are we spending our time discussing or obeying.

2 Timothy 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

We see the friends of Job wanting to discuss Job’s situation while Job, going through those firey trials was the one who said “I shall come forth as GOLD“, all the while the friends of Job, giving WRONG advise, whom God was very angry.

There is no other foundation that can be laid. That’s a done deal.
Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone. We are told to be careful how we build upon this foundation. We can build Gold, silver and precious stone, or wood, hay and stubble. This Gold and Silver only comes to us one way….through the fellowship of His sufferings. This does not come through vicarious discussions….but personal intimate union with Jesus Christ as we live by the Faith of Christ….

Philippians 3:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Note Paul stresses those who are otherwise minded GOD shall reveal even this unto you.

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Who is speaking here? Who do we buy this gold from? Is it for sale that others can sell, or cheaply purchased through discussions , having a head knowledge of this truth but no reality of this evidence.

Notice the word of BEATEN work…. This is beaten by pounding as with a hammer….wrought in. So, it wasn’t just purified through the furnace, but beaten as well.

Exodus 37:17
And he made the candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work made he the candlestick; his shaft, and his branch, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, were of the same:

Proverbs 17:3
The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts

Who do the candle stick represent?

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do some spend their lives in discussions with the opponent? I suppose when the Lord returns, these same people will still be discussing, while others, who have Eyes to see and Ears to Hear the Lords Voice won’t spend too much time discussing the WORD, but OBEYING the word.

Katy

As well versed as you may be there is a continual overlooking of those things which even are suggested. You are constantly either creating a controversy or in the midst of one. Diatribes of scriptural bigotry are leveled far and wide, post over post. Stubborn, haughty and proud. No backing off or considering of others, no forthcoming of fault or error, the accusations that are leveled backfire in your own lap but you have gone deaf from hearing your own speaking. It never applies to your own self

Paul said:

1 Corinthians 4:14-16

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

One of the headings of this article is:

[b]What can I learn from others[/b]

But have we first considered scripture and that comes ABOVE and beyond?

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and [u][b]learn [/b][/u] of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath [u][b]learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[/b][/u]

John 7:15
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never [u][b]learned [/b][/u]?

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our [u][b]learning [/b][/u], that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have [u][b]learned [/b][/u]; and avoid them.

1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might [u][b]learn [/b][/u] in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Ephesians 4:20
But ye have not so [u][b]learned [/b][/u] Christ;

Philippians 4:9
Those things, which ye have both [u][b]learned [/b][/u], and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

2 Timothy 3:14
But continue thou in the things which thou hast [u][b]learned [/b][/u] and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet [u][b]learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;[/b][/u]

And there will come a day when no one can [u][b]learn [/b][/u] this song but those whom GOD has taught!

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could [u][b]learn [/b][/u] that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I'm so sorry Mike that you seem to find criticism towards those ...even your remark to Bill, who you in your own pride never think your remarks apply to yourself.

I'm giving a different perspective here that we LEARN of GOD, and not to put too much in the wisdom of men.

God Bless you Mike!

Katy

Diane, THAT is the most beautiful and profound thing said here from the very beginning.

This thread is really a catch 22. As we each express our thoughts, to agree and agree to disagree, also stating why we do so, backing with scripture, there are those who still want to make railing accusations of hurt towards those who disagree....as was demonstrated.

Walls of divisions become set in cement, where no one really expects it to change or even want it to change.

From the very beginning of my coming on here Mike has set up his walls against my posts, with the same spirit today as was months ago.

That was why I said this article could be used in a good way and bad way.

We were discussing the article here, not people.

I saw all three come to rebuke Forrest for questioning the authority of Paul, yet did I fail to see such defence when the Deity of Christ was in question? Maybe I missed that!

No, I saw rebuke, and those called troublemakers who did, being accused of causing contention...thereby locking threads. I'm sorry Mike, but you've locked many threads I have never even posted on.

Is this what these discussions are resulting in, Compromise?

Do we sometimes keep our mouth shut for fear of being accused of taking sides with people rather then siding with truth?

Yet we pray for revival....and wonder why God isn't listening!

I forgive you Mike! Maybe we all got a little stung on this thread.

Katy

Mike, something I said in an earlier post (page 3, I think) is relevant here:

Among other things, the Lord reminded me of the two good kings, Jehoshaphat and Hezekiah. Both really nice guys (if a king can be called that!), and true men of God. [b]Yet they compromised and made leagues with their enemies, and with the enemies of their nation, and, more disastrously, with enemies of God[/b]

1Kings 20:42 [color=000000] And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.[/color]

Of course there's no question of killing anyone, but this is the spiritual principle at stake here.

Her manner of expressing it may leave something to be desired, but in this aspect Katy is right.

And again the Word speaks of those who protect the evil and condemn the righteous

Ezekiel 13:22
...ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life...

Please Mike, this is not the first time I've seen you do this.

Moderator or no (and you could have both of us banned for this) I plead with you as a brother in Christ, please listen before its too late!

in Him

Jeannette

ChrisJD,
I understand many things said here on SI have hurt you deeply. We discussed this on another thread you started about Judging.

You were totally offended by those going back into the history of the Reformers, stating they had no right to state such things.

I do believe, if not mistaken, even Mike was agreeing with the right to post those comments, regardless if it was hurtful to anyone.

In relation to my comment Chris, under the theology of Calvinism, God's sovereignty chooses those He saves, and He has sovereignty chosen those He has chosen to Hell. The question came up about witnessing on many a Calvinist blog if this were so.

Again, I asked a question ...not a statement.....

If those who are Calvinists who boycott revivals wear t-shirts saying NO CHOICE, then I believe THAT is more HURTFUL by 1000% then my question.

I would hope and pray you too find that more hurtful, as we put hurt in perspective.

I did apologize to you that that hurt you.

Now, Jayyou may come on line here as say how hurt he was that I said Jesus was not Michael the Arc angel. I would tell him the same thing I am saying to you.....I'm sorry that comment HURT you, however, reducing Jesus Christ to an Angel is far more hurtful.

Sharon may come on line here and say how hurt she was that many defended the Deity of Christ, rebuked her, but reducing Jesus to anything but GOD is more hurtful.

Forrest I'm sure was Greatly HURT when she questioned the authority of Paul... I know she was hurt, but what she was teaching was far more hurtful then the rebukes she received.

(And I applaud the Moderators for his defence)

The list can go on and on. Yet, all I can say Chris is I'm sorry you are hurt by many comments here, not just mine.

Katy

PaulWest wrote:
Before [i]what's[/i] too late?

Don't ask me, ask the Lord

Jeannette

Chris....this is my LAST post to you.

I've said what I've said out of personal conviction of my conscience.

You've said what you've said out of yours.

This thread is not about Calvinism to begin with, or healing hurts.

End of discussion Chris!

Katy

“Surely you desire truth in the inner parts;
you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.” Ps. 51;6

Oh Diane, how your last post brought to mind Ephesians 3

Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Katy

[b]"[u]GOD[/u]"[/b] -ordained leadership and counsel ?

With all due respect Diane - but this has nothing to do with "forgiveness" at this time - but a veil that's been pulled back - but no one has been able to get it out here or get the attention to WHO needs it from us the Most - JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.
And one reason is - is because Forums are ADDICTIVE 'TO SOME' ('THAT' is where "souls are fading away" Brother) and they are afraid of backlash or the excessive banning and the other reason is some are young - which to me is under 50 - and for another - they are banned before they can finish spitting it out. Many joined here already wounded only to be finished off here.

It is time to expose the wizard of oz - because enough have been USED AND ABUSED. ENOUGH !!!

AND MOST ESPECIALLY, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN 'USED', ARE THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN HEAVEN AND CANNOT PROTECT THEIR WORKS OR SIT HERE AND WATCH FIVE YEARS WORTH OF MISTREATMENT.

Pardon me Diane - but I'm about to use the word "you" quite excessively now.

And we DON'T NEED a "LEAD EWE" - [b]WE NEED THE CHIEF SHEPHERD HERE.[/b]

_____________________________________________________________

ChrisJD - what did you do to the "Desiring the Gifts on the Spirit" thread and elsewhere ?

_____________________________________________________________

Mike Balog - to not publically say to you what is being held inside by not a few, would be a very great "disservice" {to use your own phrase} to all those who I've come to know here or have seen here (past tense) and on other Websites and even in the Churches or to THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

You cannot and have not even begun to follow the Article that Diane posted - nonetheless, have dealt fairly with countless members here since I've have viewed this forum - going back to 2003.

When I joined - all the threads from the beginning were still here and I read them all.
I downloaded some that really showed how things were. SOME of the posts are mysteriously gone now or edited and I need not say who's. We just watch the locked Moderators forum to know when the next head will fly for years now.

Not only can you Not follow how GOD's WORD directs "leaders" to treat people, but you cannot even follow this simple piece that Diane posted - nor will you ever - because there IS a tyrannical spirit here and always has been.

[b]There has always been an extremely strict - overbearing ruling on "proper behavior" - which is very narrowly defined for 'most' of us - but HERETICS that deny the Deity of Christ, and the such, can come here and not only be nasty to you and to us - but are encouraged to stay - while the rest of us must post with fear and trembling - even if all we are asking for is more emphasis on JESUS AND HIS WORD.

You in leadership here have Never considered members ages - yet you posted on respecting elders just the other day.

Everything you have posted is pure hype and things that you should have looked in the mirror first, before you posted. Everything I've read that you've posted 'just' since March 12th - this month - has been nothing but the "cover-up".

Yes, being disabled gives one an advantage to notice the same pattern over and over and over for almost 5 years now.

You are ever writing EXTRA LONG posts to make up for your obvious LACK OF CHRIST - and THAT I TRIED TO WARN YOU ABOUT LAST OCTOBER. AND NOT FOR ME, BECAUSE I DON'T[u] NEED[/u] A FORUM --- WHEREAS WITHOUT THIS FORUM - YOU HAVE NOTHING.[/b]

I'd rather have a slightly "not so polite" Doctrinally Correct person on my website than nasty warlords or polite heretics or pandering PC people.

YOU are why so many don't post here anymore [u]and the few posters who have made of themselves your personal bouncers.[/u]

It is and has been YOU and up until 3 years ago - since certain posts were deleted - YOU WEREN'T THE ONLY ONE BEING NASTY TO POSTERS.

Plain English with no big words - so that ALL can understand me.

A good Pastor makes for a good Church and the opposite holds true also for those who abuse their "authority" !!!

CHRIST JESUS IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF THIS WEBSITE - IT IS BUILT AROUND THE EXALTATION OF A MAN. IF REVIVAL 'AS UNTO THE LORD' HAD BEEN THE SOLE AIM AND NOT THE GLORIFICATION AND CRUELTY OF MAN HERE - THE BACKING WOULD BE THROUGH THE ROOF.

THIS SITE HAS BEEN TO THE GLORY OF A MAN - AND NOT FOR JESUS ONLY OR ALONE.

HOW DARE YOU JUDGE OR SPEAK TO ANYONE THE WAYS YOU HAVE, FOR GOING ON FIVE YEARS NOW ?

THIS is what needs to be exposed here and that day is coming - because HE WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY WITH ANOTHER AND WILL NOT ALLOW HIS SHEEP TO BE CONSISTANTLY BEATEN DOWN - NOR HIS DEPARTED PREACHERS USED TO PROMOTE YOUNG MEN WHO WON'T GO THROUGH THE HELL THAT THEY DID, TO GET THE SERMONS THEY DELIVERED FROM THEIR TRIED-HEARTS !

THE FARCE OF IT ALL - IS THAT THE "GREAT" MEN OF GOD WHO'S SERMONS WERE USED TO PROMOTE THIS SITE, ARE BEING USED HERE TO PROMOTE ONE MAN WHO'S SIGNED ON A "BOUNCER" TO DO HIS VERY DIRTY WORK OF BEATING UP ON SISTERS AND SENSITIVE MEN --- WHEREAS PRIOR TO LATE 2005 - HE'D BEAT THEM HIMSELF ALSO.

The Exodus started this past week with me over the Deity of Christ. You will destroy anyone here that shows you for what you [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=10214&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0] LACK.[/url]

[size=x-small][b]Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute Me {saith the LORD} among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread {or a "name" or "position"}, [i]to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live,[/i] by your [u]lying[/u] to my people that hear your [u]lies[/u]?"[/b]

Again - I asked you last May to ban me but STOP TREATING PEOPLE THIS WAY - BECAUSE WITHOUT PEOPLE - THERE WOULDN'T BE A WEBSITE.

"STOP THE SLANDER" WAS WHAT I POSTED [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=18396&forum=45&start=50&viewmode=flat&order=0] BY OSWALD SMITH (here)[/url], WHEN I ASKED TO BE BANNED LAST YEAR - [u]FOR THAT REASON[/u] - BUT 'THAT' YOU DIDN'T CATCH - OBVIOUSLY - BUT CATCH IT NOW - THESE PEOPLE ARE [b]GOD'S[/b] SHEEP.

IF YOU WANT TO BAN ME - BAN ME - BUT LEAVE THESE OTHERS ALONE AND GO AFTER THOSE WHO DENY HIS DEITY AND DIE TO SELF YOURSELVES BY CEASING THIS ACCUSING OF ANYONE [i]ELSE[/i] OF "PRIDE", WHEN THIS WHOLE SITE HAS BEEN RUN BY THE PRIDE OF MEN.
I, just for one, have not seen the HUMILITY OF CHRIST FROM THE LEADERSHIP SINCE SEARCHING THESE "CORRECTING" POSTS SINCE 2003 ![/size]

The practice ---- BAN THEM AND THEN LIE ABOUT THEM TO COVER FOR YOURSELVES has gone on long enough.

It's [u]not[/u] unforgiveness in the least - but ENOUGH people have been hurt now - ENOUGH of [b]His Sheep[/b] have been scattered under a Pretense of "The Old Paths".

[b]The "Ancient Paths" is [url=http://artkatzministries.org/ask-for-the-ancient-paths/]Our God & Savior Himself ![/url]

Heavy Handed Leadership = Pompous not Pious - 'Self'-Serving, not Servants of Christ ![/b]

The paranoia you've always felt is not because the enemy is after a "righteous cause" but because of the treatment of His Sheep - His WORD - and use of The Classics, etc. for 'self'-promoting ends [u]and for NOT defending HIM here.[/u]

Had it been for Jesus and Jesus alone - you'd all have NO FEARS - nor reason to.

That 'will' come out in The End.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22307&forum=35&start=30&34

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=21739&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

[b]You can rule by LOVE or by continuing this practice of trying to make people 'fear' you all.

Pro 29:25 "The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be Safe." ---- EVEN IF HE/SHE MUST STAND OR BE ALONE UNTIL HE COMES.[/b]

I have [b]locked[/b] this thread.

To all people who cannot just post edifying topics and have problems with moderators or sermonindex in general I ask that you perhaps move on from "not" participating in the sermonindex forums.

It is sad to argue and waste time on a internet forum. People from over 50 countries weekly are viewing the forums and what everyone is posting. I am sure many are not understanding why people are posting such threads.

Please keep posting more towards the sermon materials on the website and scriptures toward edifying.