can the Church adapt?

Nearly everyday we learn more about the earth, about the universe and the Creation. Sometimes these new things change our perspectives, such as when great telescopes were used to determine that the universe is expanding outward in all directions. this discovery overthrough the idea of Steady State, that many athiests scientists held (because it implied that there was no beginning or end to the universe.) The subsequent discovery of universal background radition (noise) that shouldn't be there lent further evidence for the big bang that created the time/space continuum.

To me, neither of these discoveries contradicts anything in the Bible. but this is not so for quite a few Christians.

what is concerning me is that the Church is keeping the baby (Jesus) in the bath water, and it is getting cold. The people who wrote the Old Testament were great people, Children of God that brought the Faith and understanding of man's place and role on earth to us. But lets face it. They didn't understand the facts of nature at all. For them, the earth was at the center of the universe and everything else (the heavens) revolved around it. They knew nothing about biology, nothing about comets, or even that stars were other suns which had planets.

my great concern is the clinging to the INTERPRETATIONS of Old Testament writers, and then saying that if they are not true, then the rest of the Bible is suspect, and then following on this, that we can't trust what it says about Jesus.

scientific progress and discovery is not going to sit still. but the words of the Old Testament cannot be updated or revised, as we do with just about everything else when new things are discovered. so rest assured that the Church that sits still on conventional interpretation of the Old Testament will continue to be contradicted by scientific discovery. and slowly this will erode peoples' faith in the Church.

In life we move ahead with what we learn, or ignore our misunderstandings and fall behind.

The real jewels in the Bible are the teachings of Christ Jesus and the crown is His attonement for our sins. and this is the point of the Bible. It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

bub

Hi Bubba,

To me, neither of these discoveries contradicts anything in the Bible... It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

The problem some Christians have is not the definitions of what really had been identified - however imperfectly - and retained for us in scripture - but they have been taught that science and God are opposed to each other.

This is the real flaw in the logic, for God created [i]everything[/i].

What science often does, though, is to force people's eyes off the Creator, and on to the created - the creature - whether it be an invention like the corkscrew, a lens or a calculator (for examples), and to let these dictate our view of God, rather than our view of God being that He is infinitely [b][i]greater[/i][/b] - He whose mighty power framed the whole thing, from stardust to human, and even became a Man Himself.

The church should never adapt to the world but the world to the church.

The tragedy is when as the old saint horatius bonar exclaimed in his day: "I looked for the church and found the world and looked for the world and found the church!"

postmodernism is not a new way of sharing the gospel, people still are the same and need the old gospel of the cross.

Compton wrote:
Hi Bub,

It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

The bible is also a book about facts. If the bible isn't factual, then why should it inspire faith?

MC

Good!

so rest assured that the Church that sits still on conventional interpretation of the Old Testament will continue to be contradicted by scientific discovery. and slowly this will erode peoples' faith in the Church.

I agree... it will erode the intellectual faith of unconverted church members. For the true child of God who has been powerfully and radically born again, made a brand new creation in Christ, and filled overflowing with the Holy Spirit, modernism and the latest theories will not cause them to bat an eyelid - let alone be shaken in their faith.

Jim

First of all, Bub, the old testament was not written by "GREAT PEOPLE", BUT AS THE WORD SAYS, "AS THE HOLY SPIRIT SPOKE, THROUGH THE MOUTHS OF THE PROPHETS. Remember?? All the hundreds of prophecies about Jesus, His birth, death, and Kingdom???Written by great people???.....The Bible, all of it, was written by God himself..That's Chritianity 101,,to those who have been born again.....,.,.,,,,,,,,..........So, we should move on because science disagrees with the Bible, and oooooh, I cringe in terror and disdain that anyone would lose faith in the church.........You cannot see that just maybe those that say we are the church may not be???....So called men of God SLAUGHTERED...hundreds of thousands of men, women and children during the dark ages, and reformation[ which was simply
Divine deliverance]That was the Church. Gosh, I would hate for people to lose respect!!.......and just for the record,,,,Science had proved, and believed that the world was flat, a few hundred years ago,,,and a "great church" burnt alive a few of their church members for considering it was round,,and it was right there in the bible all along....When Jesus appears as Almighty Creator and Judge, we will see Him as he is. The Bible says, that He will collapse this Universe you speak of, by melting every molecule, to erase every stain of sin and death, and make a new one, after dinner...........God never said to trust in the church, but he did say,[ if you believe that God Yahweh wrote it].....CURSED IS HE THAT PUTS HIS TRUST IN MAN.....The Bible also says, that the earthly mind is an Enemy to God, and will always war against His Holy Spirit, both within and without. God wants you in his Holy Heaven, but believing the Bible was written by man, and that science trumps his knowledge isn't going to help.........MARVEL NOT THAT I SAY, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN..........WITHOUT HOLINESS,NO MAN SHALL SEE GOD....Tom

Here is an example of what i mean: the flood, from Noah's point of view, covered the whole world. the story was written from this perspective. they could not possibily know what was going on in Australia.

from our perspective, reading this story, to assume that Noah's perspective is the whole truth is to throw context completely out of the story. we would not read any other story this way, but because Christians insist on factual stories instead of the "Parables down to the foundation of the earth" as Christ TELLS US explicitly, they missinterpret the story entirely.

I'm certain there was a great flood of the Holy Lands that destroyed everything there. I'm certain that Noah built a boat and rescued his family and as many domesticated and other animals as they could find (they would need them after the flood)

But when Christians start insisting that the whole world was flooded and there were two of every kind of animal (including baby dinos) on Noahs Ark, then i understand why people dismiss Christianity as a fantastic cultural myth. From Noahs point of view, the whole world was flooded. From Noah's point of view he had an ark that held all the animals he could come up with. Polar bears, penguins, etc. were not on this boat. The logistics are completely impossible. and it doesn't say that God gathered all the animals from the four corners of the earth and put them on the boat.

this is just one example where Christians ignore the perspective of the author completely and insist on facts that were not intended by the author because they insist on literal translations and physical facts from a book that is about our spiritual condition and salvation.

bub

THE BIBLE SAYS IN GENESIS, THAT THE "HIGH MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED" BY THE FLOOD. NOW I ASSUME YOUR SCIENTIFIC MIND UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORT OF THAT. THAT IS WATER, 6 MILES HIGH...ABOVE SEA LEVEL. THE EARTH ROTATES, AND GRAVITATIONAL PULL CREATES SEA LEVEL, OUR BODY WEIGHT, AND OUR ABILITY TO JUMP OVER THE TREES, OR NOT......THAT'S GLOBAL, BUB....EVERY GRAIN OF SAND, EVERY RIVER, EVERY TOILET YOU FLUSH, IS CONNECTED TO THIS THING THAT INVOLVES SEA LEVEL AND GRAVITY. .......I,M GUESSING YOU HAVE IT IN AUSTRALIA TOO??....SO IF EVEREST, K4, AND OTHER MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED,,,YOU THINK THAT POSSIBLY THE PACIFIC OCEAN WOULD HAVE HELD OUT UNDER SEA LEVEL, FOR 3 MONTHS....YOU KNOW, THROWN UP SOME NATURALLY SELECTED DAMS AND DYKES?, TO PROTECT ITSELF FROM GROWING TOO TALL???[EVEREST IS UP NORTH, BY CHINA, BY THE WAY, NOT NEAR EGYPT].....THERE IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE OF A CATACLYSM THAT SEPARATED LAND MASSES AROUND THAT TIME....AUSTRALIA COULD HAVE BEEN NEXT TO PEORIA[MY BIRTH PLACE]. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THESE SUPPOSITIONS AND THEORYS..................AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE WEREN'T POLAR BEARS AND PENGUINS ON THE ARK? YOU DON'T, BUT YOUR EXERCISING YOUR FAITH TO TRUST YOUR THEORIES, THAT IT 'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE. AFTER ALL, SCIENCE DISPROVES IT. .......AFTER 3 OR 4 YEARS IN THE OREGON MOUNTAINS, A HEREFORD BULL APPEARED IN THE CIVILIZED AREAS WHERE I WAS CRUISING IN MY MOUNTAIN BIKE. HE WAS UP THERE ON A PINE FILLED NOLL, MAD AS A HORNET, AND TERRIFING. HIS HORNS HAD GROWN TO A FULL 6 FEET, HIS BODY HAIR FELL TO THE GROUND, 5 FEET, LIKE A WOOLY MAMMOTH. HIS BODY MASS APPEARED BIGGER TOO. I GAVE HIM HIS WAY ANYWAY HE CHOSE....THE POINT I'M MAKING, THAT THE LORD HAS PUT ADAPTION, FOR SURVIVAL, DEEP IN OUR GENETIC CODE. WHO SAID A SPECIES CANNOT ADAPT...EVER SEE A STRAY CAT, THAT WENT WILD???AND HER KITS AFTER A FEW GENERATIONS....THEY ARE DIFFERENT CREATURES.....DID YOU EVER THINK, THAT FOR SOME TIME, ALL THE CHURCH HAD ....TO FEED ON....WAS THE OLD COVENANT WRITINGS? YIP, POLAR BEARS, KOALAS, TAP DANCING PENGUINS......8 WERE SAVED WHEN THE ARK FLOATED BY, "ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH",......AND THE HOLY SEED OF GOD WAS IN THAT BLOOD LINE, JESUS THE CREATOR,,,,,AND ALSO THE GOD OF JUDGEMENT ON A PLANET STEEPED IN SATANIC UNBELIEF, SUCH AS EVOLUTION. ....."AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, SO SHALL IT BE ON THE DAY THE SON OF MAN RETURNS, AND SHALL HE FIND FAITH?".............TOM

bubbaguy wrote:
Here is an example of what i mean: the flood, from Noah's point of view, covered the whole world. the story was written from this perspective. they could not possibily know what was going on in Australia.

from our perspective, reading this story, to assume that Noah's perspective is the whole truth is to throw context completely out of the story. we would not read any other story this way, but because Christians insist on factual stories instead of the "Parables down to the foundation of the earth" as Christ TELLS US explicitly, they missinterpret the story entirely.

I'm certain there was a great flood of the Holy Lands that destroyed everything there. I'm certain that Noah built a boat and rescued his family and as many domesticated and other animals as they could find (they would need them after the flood)

But when Christians start insisting that the whole world was flooded and there were two of every kind of animal (including baby dinos) on Noahs Ark, then i understand why people dismiss Christianity as a fantastic cultural myth. From Noahs point of view, the whole world was flooded. From Noah's point of view he had an ark that held all the animals he could come up with. Polar bears, penguins, etc. were not on this boat. The logistics are completely impossible. and it doesn't say that God gathered all the animals from the four corners of the earth and put them on the boat.

this is just one example where Christians ignore the perspective of the author completely and insist on facts that were not intended by the author because they insist on literal translations and physical facts from a book that is about our spiritual condition and salvation.

bub[/quote

Tom, you have ignored the point altogether. From the perspective of the author the mountains were covered by water. as far as he could see the whole world was underwater. you are ignoring the perspective of the author who cannot see the whole world, but only has experience of the place he lives (is).

next, Australia. there is clear evidence that the Aboriginies have been living on the island for well over 50,000 years. they were not wiped out by the flood, cause it happened on the other side of the world!

then explain to me how Australian mammals got on the Ark! this kind of ridiculous talk tells me that you aren't concerned about reality or facts.

bub

No, I addressed the point exactly, but , I give. I know the Lord is bigger than your unbelief, or your faith in the facts or science. Jesus must reveal Himself to you . He said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you....FOR SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE CLEARLY SEEN,BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE....THEY BECAME FUTILE IN THEIR THOUGHTS, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED............PROFESSING TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME ....FOOLS....IT IS MY HOPE THAT YOU WILL FIND JESUS IN FULLNESS, AND REJECT VAIN KNOWLEDGE OF MAN,,,,TOM

Miccah, Tom,

this all or nothing approach to the Bible is exactly what i fear will be undermining the faith in the future. it is unreasonable, and willfully refuses to consider the facts written into the Creation by God.

bub

I guess my question has been answered.

but keep in mind that God's Creation is a direct communication from HIM.

The Book is inspired by God and His Creation, but this Word has been assembled, interpreted, translated, retranslated, reassembled etc. by men over the ages. It is a great work, and tells us of our role on earth (having dominion), comdemns us for our grave sin and explains where this sin comes from (our egos and disobedience) and provides us with the way to Salavation. I don't expect any more from this book. It has done so much for me already!!!

Nevertheless, the DIRECT Word of God is available in the Creation. And where the Bible provides cultural and historical context for man's relationship with God, the Creation provides the actual details of His Works!!

if God's Direct word tells us that descent with modification is a rule in nature, well, i am going to take God at His word and let the Bible do what it is supposed to do, help us find salvation through Christ.

bub

Bub, I'm not putting you down here, but what a pile of double talk here,I suppose to save face. You still choose to compartmentalize the Holy Writ, saying, in short, The part about going to Heaven is really important, and us all getting along in Jesus, but this total truth stuff just isn't true. The Bible is fragmented by man's interpretations; not historically accurate, and the like.
Satan confronted the Lord Jesus, with several attacks on His faith, before His ministry began. Each time, Jesus responded, "It is written.", and quoted the old testament writings, and drove Satan away, standing before the Father.
"I have magnified my Word above my Name"
He said. The universe is hung on the fabric of the Word. You see, truth is bigger than our Ideas.It is the fiber of God Himself. We would, as men, call it, His Character. Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Truth."
Jesus trusted in the written word, the Bible, in all that He did. John writes, "The Spirit and the Word agree." Bub, how could this be, if it was the humanistic mess you claim it to be?
I've read the gentle responses by anointed Brothers and Sisters to you. All want you to see, and believe. You are in danger, in an eternal way, of losing the greatest prize in human history.
I loved to confront Christians, and inwardly I knew they were just weaklings, who needed a crutch to cope. I thought they were intellectually retarded, and I let them know it .I went to and from Viet Nam, as a US marine, and spent time back in America as a depraved wanderer. I despised anything that reeked of religion and Jesus. It was in this blasphemous state that He ran me down, with mercy; the Hound of Heaven. He loved me, when I hated Him. I bowed my knee, with a hairbreadth of faith, and He flooded my soul with a mighty wind of his Love, like a tornado,, and I felt every sin, every one , leave me like a torrent. I was born again by the Spirit
I have led many people to Jesus, around the World. Just returned from China, India etc. The first thing I do, and the church, is to see people who are born again "get grounded" in the Word of God. If people don't, they usually fall away, because the winds of the world, their satanic nature's in them, and the Demons will attack them, and they have no defence or ground to stand. Jesus cried to the Wicked One, "It is written!", and overcame. Can you do so, if you cannot believe it is God's pure Word?....You must be born again. God's people love you, as does God himself, and his desire is to make you one with Him..Tom

BrotherTom,

i don't disagree that Creation is hung on the Word. God said, "Let there be Light," and (BIG) BANG, it was so.

your account of your life tells me you are a person of extremes. no middle ground.

i don't doubt your faith or salvation, but i do doubt your capacity for rational thought. this is most terribly clear in your first sentence:

"I'm not putting you down here, but what a pile of double talk here,I suppose to save face."

you say you aren't putting me down, but immediately do so with the "save face" comment. (as if i needed to or am ashamed of anything i have posted)

you say "what a pile of doubletalk" but don't cite any examples and then, your sentence itself is double talk. this reflects on your thinking.

what i have been saying is that God's creation is also a form of communication from Him, as well as the Bible. the Bible is the inspired word accounted for by men. the earth and the universe are also inspired "word", studied and interpreted by men. we should learn about God from both and where there are apparent conflicts, well, that is what God gave us brains for. figuring it all out. the conflict is also a blessing, if you will have it. (but i know fully well you will refuse and take an extreme point of view.)

bub

sorry about the insult, Bub, it just seemed so evasive and unclear too me. forgive me, please, it was a proud thing to say. But please consider that my extreme views are directly related to my extreme commitment to the Word as truth, and Jesus as God and Lord, not to my background. Hope you find Him in peace,,Tom

Tom,

your commitment is clear and your works to spread the faith are admirable (but that isn't why you do it.) i know that what you have been doing overseas is something i am incapable of. public ministry for me is limited to the occasional times that the Holy Spirit visits our Meetings for Worship and compells me to rise and speak. (i think it takes a spiritual crowbar to accomplish this)
:-?

your candor and honesty are refreshing. thank you, and God Bless you.

bub

Hi Bub

I have a question for you :-) Do you believe in the supernatural?........Frank (This would be a great yes or no question:)

appolus, great question.

but, it depends on what you mean. because from one point of view, everything God created is "natural" and this would include what we term to be miraculous, or supernatural. (when we don't understand how something works it becomes supernatural, doesn't it?)

if you ask me, did Jesus multiply the loaves, walk on water, heal leppers, etc? i would say yes, and this appears to us to be "supernatural" because we can't conceive of how this could be done.

the virgin birth would be termed "supernatural" but recently i saw an interview where a biologist explained that a rare occurance is a woman with both x and y chromosomes. most of these xy women have no womb, but a few do. thus the biologist (not a Christian) said that he could not rule out the possibility of virgin birth.

yes, or no??? yikes! I don't think we understand enough to be able to make such determinations as to what is natural and what is "supernatural."

bub

ps. i believe the big bang was "supernatural"

HI Bub....not exactly a yes or a no :-) If you do believe in the supernatural, and I think that is what you said(I would include parting of sea, walls of Jericho, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and so on) then , as a rational man, you are saying that you believe in a God that frequently, if not thousands and hundreds of thousands of times has invaded the natural , changing the very laws that that every scientist would hold too. Whether this is putting the sun back in the sky or growing a limb where there is no limb or indeed raising the dead after 4 days. All of this is a suspension of the natural, and of course makes all things possible that the Bible claims, despite what we might rationally deduce given natural elements. If God works supernaturally once, and you agree to that, then all bets are of for everything that you argued. For I would simply assert where natural evidence contradicts Biblical accounts, then God simply invaded the natural in such a way that no scientist could ever explain. If you would like to read "The vastness of God and how he can be know," please fo to my website. I think, using quotes , my opinin and my experience, you will see just how limited the human brain is in comparison to God .............Frank

could your description, "where natural evidence contradicts Biblical accounts, then God simply invaded the natural in such a way that no scientist could ever explain" include God laying down a false geological record that gives us widely corroborated evidence that evolution occurred? this is what you are suggesting; that, in some sense, God lied in the geological record.

i'm not buying that for a second. and it is a dangerous idea.

bub

Not a false geographical record, just a faulty analysis of the data coming to the wrong conclusion, do you admit that this is a posibilty Bub? Or are you suggesting some kind of infallibity in the scientists and their data and their conclusions?

Tozer says................

Another of the questionable things is the manner in which we try to call upon science to prove Christianity.
We have just come through one of those long tunnels when the evangelical church was running to science to get some sort of help, not knowing that science has no technique for investigation of all that is divine in Christianity.

The things that science can investigate are not divine, and the things that are divine, science cannot investigate. Oh, science can make the satellites and the spaceships—many wonderful things in the human field—but all of that is really nothing. Christianity is a miracle and a wonder—something out of the heavens—something let down like Peter's sheet, not depending upon the world nor being a part of the world, but something from the throne of God like the waters of Ezekiel's vision.
Science knows nothing about that. It can only stand back, looking it over, and doesn't know what to say. But if we don't have this inner intuition, if we don't have this comprehension of the miraculous, we run to science. Some of those in this category say they want to believe in miracles. A fellow finds a fish washed up on shore and he gets a tape measure and crawls inside the bony skeleton and measures its gullet. He finds out that it is as broad as the shoulders of a man and he says, "See, Jonah could be swallowed by a great fish!"
Well, I believe the miracles—I believe them all, but I don't believe them because science permits me. I believe them because God wrote them and detailed them in the Bible. If they are there, I believe them!
You may have heard of the two scientists who reported that the story of Balaam's ass speaking to the prophet is false because "the larynx of a donkey could not possibly articulate human speech."
A thoughtful Scotchman overheard them and he walked up to them and said, "Man, you make a donkey and I'll make him talk."
There you have it, brother. If God can make a donkey, God can make him talk. Christianity stands or falls on Jesus Christ—stands or falls on the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
—Counselor, The

come on now guys. . . God created the universe and the sciences and the laws of nature. Why in the world would He need to break laws that He created? it is nonsense.

yes, scientists commonly use faulty analysis of evidence they don't understand to come to conclusions that aren't true. happens all the time.

but the scientific peer review process is built to deal with these errors. and then there is the test of time. ideas about things like gravity have been gotten wrong time and again, but eventually scientists learned that time and space are a part of the same fabric, inseprable, and that gravity is a force that actually curves the time space continuum. it took many scientists hundreds of years to work this out. the same process has been operating in the field of human evolution and the dating technologies and discovery process are much more refined and accurate than in the past.

they are getting much better at reading the Word of God written into the Creation and it is telling us the details of the first "days" and then some more. (without an earth rotating around a sun i cannot figure out what a day is) in Genesis, as i mentioned, when God said "let there be light" boom. there are many other similary comparisons that make Genesis and evolution compatible and even corroborating accounts of creation. there is nothing false or innaccurate about the Genesis account.

bub

I think Compton has captured Bub's position best. He says

Quote

"This is the risk we take when placing a professors' lecture over the word of God. In a generation or so, the great man and his beliefs will be replaced, but the bible will still be the truth for an entire spiritual nation that will never pass away until the coming of Jesus."

I am going to try again and ask Bub if believes in the supernatural, maybe now a plain yes or no would be in order. If he wishes to be a higher critic and take the postion that there is no supernatural, no miracles, then that is an honest position which we can discuss.

Do you believe that God held the sun in the sky? (Joshua 10:12-13) Do you believe that the sun went back 10 degrees? (2 Kings 20:9-11) Do you believe that God parted the red sea or that dead men were raised, after days of being dead? These are simple enough questions for any professing Christian. And when I say believe, I mean that these events were caused by God breaking in and causing these events, violating scientific principals, the laws of our very nature. Cmon Bub, stand up and tell us the truth. :-)

One more question Bub. Have you yourself had a supernatural encounter with God? Have you knelt in His presence? When man worships himself, it is because he only believes what he himself can comprehend................Frank

We interpret Genesis differently. I view the creation story as a parable with symbolic meaning. your (biblical) interpretation is taking things presented as literal. there is sound biblical reasoning for interpreting parts of Genesis as a kind of parable story, and i have covered this already.

yes, i have had experiences of a transcendental spiritual nature, where God is present. have i experienced the miraculous? i consider the leadings of the Holy Spirit an ongoing miracle that all Christians can partake in, if they will "Wait Upon the Spirit."

With regard to all of the OT miracles you cite, some are undoubtedly misunderstandings of the people experiencing them and some are acts of God. i'm not going to try to sort through them all and make a determination. there is no point or need. God works in mysterious ways.

bub

Not saying God is "subject to His own laws". God exists beyond the time/space continuum, which is our universe. thus, there is no need for God to break laws that apply in this universe. (He can act with or without anyone noticing. everything will just seem to work as normal to us.) (i know this is a difficult conception, and as i said, God works mysteriously.)

bub

Hey Bubba,

brothers, there's no point in laboring about this. You can't convince somebody of truth. we are coming to this type of conclusion (please forgive me bubba, i don't mean to infer as if you are any less of a christian that any of us, for the Lord Jesus is that uphold us in our christian walk), because we have no supernatural manifestation of God. I tell you though, Do you know it's only in the West people say there is no God? the rest of the World, the contention mostly is that my god is better than your god, which most of the times comes to .... "not with enticing words, but with power"

not saying the Bible is wrong. saying there is more than one way to interpret and we need to take into account the perspective of the person writing (as with all writing)

next, i don't need to defend this position before the Lord. it cannot lead sincere, thinking people astray, as i am not saying anything about our salvation. My salvation is dependent entirely upon my faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Period.

Miccah said:

"If you do not believe what the bible says as it is said, how can you believe what it says about Christ"

Brother, this is my point exactly. if i don't read the Genesis account as literal, then you contend i have no rationale for believing the rest of the Bible, and what it says about Jesus. This all or nothing approach is what will be used against those who hold it, in end times. Those holding to literal, word for word interpretation, with no respect for the teachings of Jesus about "parables down to the foundation of the world" will be crushed and will be the first to fall away because they are holding God up to their own selfish expectations!

bub

Paul,

because it is a demand being made upon God.

This book we have MUST BE PERFECT! would be my paraphrase.

bub

of course not, but most people know this and expect the trial and error process.

Only God Alone is perfect. and nothing from the hands of men is. it is possible to make an idol of the Bible.

bub

Hi Bub

You dissapointed me Bub, you do not have the guts of your conviction. I only gave you four miracles to say yes or no and we got the political answer. As I said before, if you do not belive it, stand up and be honest before us, I would have more respect for that postion. I could debate with a higher critic, of course he would have to admit he is one. Maybe you are fooling yourself Bub? Is that possible?.....Frank

Crosscheck,

here's something to chew on.

in scientific theory of the universe the original state is a nondimensional void.

Genesis says . . "the earth was formless and empty"

next the scientists tell us that the Big bang released radiant energy

Genesis says . . . "let there be light"

next, science tells us that the planetary systems developed

Genesis says that night and day are divided (rotating planets are required to divide night from day)

next, scientists say that comets deposited large volumes of ice (water) on the earth (the "bombardment", it is called)

comparably Genesis next tells us about the "separation of the waters"

Next science says all land was gathered into a supercontinent called "Pangea"

comparably Genesis next tells us that the "waters were gathered into one place" (with one great land mass, all the water would be in one ocean!)

next scientists say that complex earth chemistry begot life.

Genesis says "the earth brought forth life"

if you are willing to have an open mind and think about comparables, the Genesis story and the story that evolutionary scientists are telling us are very similar. in fact i think they are the same. scientists are discovering the details of the Genesis account.

God's Word written in the earth is as true as it is in Genesis.

bub

Mike: I see this thread as a very positive one, allowing so many to search their faith to believe. The scripture comes to me, "It is necessary that there be divisions among you, that those who are approved would be manifest."

This discussion, as i see it, has brought out much truth and faith, and I don't think at the expense of Bub, either. It's a good thing to determine our faith in the face of adversity, and also discover that there really is some mercy that the Lord has deposited in us.

The truth needs no defenders, only witnesses. I appreciate your Bible based faith and compassion for the lost. Brother Tom.

If we have science, why do we need faith?

There is no scientific evidence of Isaac whom God said Abraham and Sarah were both past the age of child bearing? Faith is Believing what GOD said is true, even if we don't understand or can/cannot explain scientifically.

James 1:
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Hebrews 11:

3[u][b]Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.[/b][/u]

Job 38
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Katy

" Would we still be engaging in discussions like these? "

I certainly hope so, but I know I would. Why? Because Hades is a real place, designed by God, for punishment of the Devil, and those deceived by him. It is eternal, and painful. I did not enter in for the sake of argument, or to be right, but that a lost soul would believe the truth, and be saved. I wanted to minister , to serve for salvation. When I perceived a chewing of pearls and constant butting, I withdrew. Tom.

I am trying[was] to Bub, who rejected the word over and over. I have led seekers to Christ, a few times. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"...after a wholesale rejection of the word, I've done what I could do to help, and truely hope he comes tp faith. tom

I posted 6 paralells between the Genesis account and the Scientific (evolution) account earlier today. No reaction so far. I could cite another dozen easily, but i would like to hear folks reaction to the ones posted so far.

crsschck, you in particular, please. (AND anyone else who has some insight or comment.)

bub

I posted 6 paralells between the Genesis account and the Scientific (evolution) account earlier today. No reaction so far. I could cite another dozen easily, but i would like to hear folks reaction to the ones posted so far.

Here are 7 scriptures that do not parallel scientific evolution!!!!

(1)

Psalm 33:6-9
6By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

(2)

Isaiah 45:18
18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else

(3)

Job 12:7-10
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

(4)

Colossians 1:12-16
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(5)

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
(6)

Hebrews 11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

(7)

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see

Bubbaguy, one day there will be a NEW Heavens and NEW Earth having NOTHING to do with anything that parallels scientific evolution !!!!!

Katy

yeah, and i could go on all day long citing things that have nothing in common with each other. that's too easy Katy. and this post illuminates nothing. except for the hard shell you are wearing.

nevertheless, bless you. may God open your heart to the possibilities of a coherent universe.

bub

Bub, you do know if those who lived in the dark ages who thought the earth was flat had read this and believed it..well???? But I don't think the ordinary people had the Bible as we do today...I'm not sure but wasn't it Galileo who said the earth was not flat, or that the sun circles the earth and was called a heretic. I'm also thinking he found scripture to back up, but it was just a matter of interpretation.

A circle is a circle.....round.

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

But here is a question for you. How do you explain this scripture based on scientific evolution?

Will the end be as the beginning? Is this based on science or God's Word?

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Katy

You were considered a heretic if you didn't believe that the earth was the center of the universe. the center of God's creation. so of course the sun revolved around the earth!

(re Isaiah, people have known that the earth was round since the days of the ancient Greeks. it was worked out by measuring the angles of shadows at certain times of day and distances to the horizon. the geometery showed curvature to the earths surface. but the vast majority of people didn't know this until much more recently, and assumed the flat earth.)

unfortunately, Matt, 24:29 is talking about a future nuclear war. (God help us!)

bub

unfortunately, Matt, 24:29 is talking about a future nuclear war. (God help us!)

Really??

Haggai 2:6
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

Hebrews 12:26
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Well, that's all for now Bubba.

Katy

PS Added for content:

Psalm 105
1O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.

2Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.

3Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

4Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

5Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;

6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

7He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.

8He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

9Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

10And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

11Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:

12When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

13When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;

14He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;

15Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

16Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.

17He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:

18Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron:

19Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.

20The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free.

21He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance:

22To bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom.

23Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

24And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.

25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

26He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen.

27They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham.

28He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word.

29He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish.

30Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings.

31He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts.

32He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.

33He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts.

34He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number,

35And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground.

36He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength.

37He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes.

38Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them.

39He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.

40The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.

41He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.

42For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.

43And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:

44And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;

45That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

;-)

Mike ;thank you, I will and I am grateful to add in here, and be admonished. I believe in "adaption",,and in some cases natural selection, as a means of survival inherit in our genome, given to creatures great and small, by the Godhead upon creation. I have also been somewhat attune to this controversy for many years, but the difference being, not in the whole sale rejection of the Word in Scripture;[not that you ever have.]

which, wouldn't you agree, is the case here?

"If, in giving liberty to the many theories, and by the way, as much as it has been adapted as reality,[evolution] it is a theory, and nothing more, we reject God's word, as God's Word, we pass into the nether world of what if[?] and possibilities. The string theory is next, down the food chain of endless speculation reducing God's order to endless parallel Universes and time continuums with De'javu'curling back and forth[you know, man, history repeats itself!

" Avoid endless discussion without profit". Paul admonished. There are many, many mysteries in Creation, but the Spirit and wisdom in me soothe me in my quest for God, and I am quietly convinced in the Genesis account. God created.

To me, it is bringing every thought into captivity unto the mind of Christ in me. In short, my thinking is an act of worship, unto obedience.

If we endure discipline, then we are sons indeed, but if we choose our own way, and what SEEMS RIGHT, we become bastards. I fear God very much and believe Him, and His word is paramount in this covenant. He gave us this awesome gift of the written word, which even Jesus our Lord lived by and taught by, quoting it over and over. So, should anyone, or any idea, or any many faceted theory draw me off the Ground that Jesus walked on, let the Lord catch me, and set me stait. I want to live, and the just shall live by faith, and faith comes for those who hear, and ACT ON the word. It is written. It is without fail the truth, and nothing but the truth, and if I allow it to subdue me, and my mind, I will see the face of God, along with my eternal family. He'll explain some mysteries then, for we will have time.

If we bend or pollute the purity of the word, and there-by our faith, how can we endure? Where do we go next? Does our faith evolve with our expanding and individual possibilities or theories that seem right and good? Of course not; our faith is turned inward, to the vanity and foolishness of a mind lost and hiding from the light. "ADAM, WHERE ARE YOU?"

brothertom

If we bend or pollute the purity of the word, and there-by our faith, how can we endure? Where do we go next? Does our faith evolve with our expanding and individual possibilities or theories that seem right and good? Of course not; our faith is turned inward, to the vanity and foolishness of a mind lost and hiding from the light. "ADAM, WHERE ARE YOU?"

We should learn a lesson!

Romans 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Katy

If you insist that "the waters were gathered in one place" has nothing to do with supercontinent Pangea and all the waters being gathered into one place on earth. if you insist that Genesis has nothing in common with evolution, then fine. Physical reality and Genesis are mutually exclusive. you can also put a bag overhead and pretend to be blind.

bub

Bubba said

scientists are discovering the details of the Genesis account.

God's Word written in the earth is as true as it is in Genesis.

You probably know that I agree in principle that scientists can only truly discover the facts of the physical matter. (Only if they [i]pray[/i], are they likely to discover the facts of the metaphysical matter.)

The trouble you encounter here, is more about calling what scientists discover, 'evolution'. If you would say they are discovering God's creation, there wouldn't be a problem; although there might be some discussion about the scientists who wish to bring theories to bear which are incompatible with either scripture or science.

In the days when I watched tv, I was interested in the scientific thinking which was brought to public attention. But, there are two problems of which I saw only one in those days.

The first and main concern about the rejection of creation as the cause of us all, is the rejection of the Creator. I do know that many scientists turn to God in the end, in desperation for some sense to be made of their lives' work so far. But, the difficulty for an evolutionist is, he (and she) are not really interested in [u][b]truth[/b][/u]. This shows itself in an almost fanatical clinging to the theory of evolution, sometimes against real findings, which protects them from having to deal with [u]both[/u] [i]unbelief[/i] and [i]sin[/i]. Sin is a thorny one, because giving up sin, would mean posting honest results, which do not deny God, as much as facing them with the matter of faith. (Just my 2c.)

The second problem I [i]now[/i] see, is that people who don't have the Holy Spirit, or even the light of faith in God, are working in the dark both spiritually and intellectually. This is the very last thing they need, if they are to 'discover' absolute truth. And, if they are ever to encounter Jesus [u]the[/u] Truth, their minds must be both willing to come to the Light, and to bow to Him.

Linn said:

This shows itself in an almost fanatical clinging to the theory of evolution, sometimes against real findings, which protects them from having to deal with both unbelief and sin

The underlining work of disproving the existence of God is evolution. It's man's intention to do away with the thought of God in their vain imagination so that they can't be responsible for their sin.

The hard part of this problem and scientists are well aware of this (which they do not publicly disclose) and that is the conscienceness of man. This is what separates us from the beast of the field - this conscienceness.

It's from this mind that you see men who are trying their best to prove that evolution is true and God is not and by that mind they curse God.

If God is not real, what are they cursing?

if evolution is "man's intention to do away with the thought of God", how come the evolution story starts out with a "void" just like Genesis? and then carries on with so many other similar events. couldn't they come up with something completely Godless? like steady state? oh, they already did that.? and their own science proved them wrong? if they admit there was a beginning, they have to admit something caused it. so, evolution keeps bringing them back to the fact that the universe was created.

bub

Bubba said

so, evolution keeps bringing them back to the fact that the universe was created.

There are Christians in science who see more clearly both because of God in their lives, and because God in their lives makes them honest workmen.

Those who reject God are disingenuous to keep teaching a theory which mostly misleads and particularly directs their children away from their Saviour.

how come the evolution story starts out with a "void" just like Genesis? and then carries on with so many other similar events. couldn't they come up with something completely Godless? like steady state? oh, they already did that.? and their own science proved them wrong? if they admit there was a beginning, they have to admit something caused it.

Like.... if you used the wrong stain, or the wrong microscopic technique, you could kid yourself certain bacteria don't exist. But, those who kept checking, finally found that what had been invisible became visible when rightly tagged, and the truth of their existence could not be denied.

how come the evolution story starts out with a "void" just like Genesis?

Bubba, can GOD be put under a microscope?

I don't see a void here. What I see in the beginning is this:

Genesis 1
1In the beginning [u][b]God created the heaven and the earth.[/b][/u]

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Just as God created Angels
God created Man

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Genesis 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Now, those In Christ are a NEW CREATION....old things pass away and all things become NEW.

This is more confirmation regarding Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Katy

PS I would say it really is a rejection of the Deity of Christ...yet we know one day

EVERY knee will bow and confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Interesting verse here:

Revelation 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The question i would ask mr. Dawkins is: If God did not design the universe in such a way that Life was inevitable, why are there amino acids, the building blocks of organic proteins, in the tails of comets?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003480694_comet16m.html

these guys really do not have a clue where the universe came from. they are completely stuck and want an answer that gives them complete independence from God's existence. But they know that there is no such evidence. SO, they continue hoping for it to come along, and continue to bash the God that they dispise, because of their egos. They so want their own selves to be real, and independent of any intentional Creator, that they will say anything, even if it disparages their integrity and the theory of Evolution in the end.

MC, because they are atheists, say stupid things, and believe in existence without a Creator, (that 1 really equals zero!?!) says nothing for or against whether evolution is real. the fly that says the swatter doesn't exist, gets smacked just the same.

bub

"You may feel it is possible to achieve the paradoxical feat of blending Darwinian evolution with faith in the biblical God, but when we statistically look at the people who professionally espouse evolution, such a feat is exceptional and rare."

Mike, Mike, Mike, this is no feat. the Creation and the Word are in accordance. if what is presented in the geological record does not match what is presented in Genesis, then we are interpreting one or the other incorrectly. my point all along is that there are plenty of points where the creation story and the evidence for evolution concur.

The separation of the Celestial waters from the Terrestrial waters occured during what scientists call the "bombardment," which was a period of time when comets, laden with ice from space, pummeled the planet for thousands of years, creating the ocean.

the waters were gathered into one place, or there was one land mass, pangea.

"the earth brought forth life."

both sides are saying the same thing!! but from very different cultural settings. this is not random or by chance. and it is no feat to see that the Word of God is reflected in the Creation of God.

bub

Mike,

thank you! i can cross this off of my to do list now!!

resolved Creation/Evolution Debate -- Check!

:-P

bub

At first I thought your post was a joke, but after reading your previous ones, I think your serious.

As a Son of God, and follower of the Messiah, if your primary goal is to revert the Earth into farmland and farmers and friends, and secondly to stop the bad people and those bad nukes, my question would be, "How can the Holy Spirit dwell with you, day after day?"

You seem to be so far away from Biblical faith, that it's laughable;[or cry-able],unbelievable. Jesus' goal in the gospel is to CONVERT the Earth, through faith in His willing offering of Himself through death and rising to God, preparing a way to Eternal Peace forever for those WHO BELIEVE! He firmly stated that there would NEVER BE PEACE until He came to deliver the Kingdom to God. He said there would be wars, and rumours of war, until then.[ MATT:24] The new Earth is given to those who have washed their garments in His Blood, not to the Satanic New Age Religion that worships Mother Earth as Creator and God, and must be saved by those bad humans who use carbon based fuel, and bad, bad, nuclear power, and weapons.

The Pope is Al Gore, and the queen of Heaven is Oprah....and it really isn't New Age...just for our age. ....The same old Earth Worship of Babel, and behind that, sit Powers, and Principalities, and Spiritual Wickedness in High Places, enraged that they were unseated from Heaven, waging war against Yahweh and His Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

Threaded in this deception is another THEORY..Global warming[ by the way 2007 was cooler, is mamma earth catching a cold??]and that carbon fuel[oil and such] is the cause. Again, those bad humans!, All going back to the Demonic Creation worship of God in the rocks, sky, SUN,, and let us not forget.....US. WE are gods! and We must SAVE the Earth.

Arise and Shine, for the Light has come, and the Glory of the Lord has Risen upon you....for behold, DARKNESS covers the Earth,, and GROSS DARKNESS the people, BUT...the Lord Will ARISE upon the end.[that's now, if you haven't perceived that], and His glory shall be seen upon you. ...Isaiah60 vs. 1 on.

Jesus Saves the Earth. He is returning to do so. What we must do is GO, as he commanded. He will bring Salvation, and, for the record, He will totally destroy this Earth, and Universe, stained by Satan's rebellion, and all of those who got in his line,,,including the New Age crowd who hate His Dominion!
2PETER...CHAPTER 3,,,VERSES 10&11.

"AND NATIONS SHALL COME TO YOUR LIGHT, AND KINGS TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF YOUR RISING!"

Oh, but how? Stop the nukes, annihilate carbon fuel, and get behind that plow, boy! [after destroying all those bad cities and factories, of course].

Jesus commanded to GO, TO ALL Nations, preaching the truth, to make them Disciples of Himself, you know....Saved....you remember that don't you. If we love Him, the Glorious Son of God, and Love His life more than ours, then our heart "will figure out what to do", and what we must "persuade" others to do.

Turn back to Jesus as absolute Lord over your life, please. Tom

Post deleted by Poster

Greetings Brothertom,

I couldn't help but notice the first line of your response to MC, and hope you will not mind if I show you a more representative sample of his thinking, to help you know him a little better - the truly serious side of him - which the smilies were intended to hint upon.

I was particularly reminded of this from an old thread, hoping it may comfort some of your anxiety. He said: [i]'... While I would love to sit down and share a cup of coffee with a Buddhist humanist Christian to listen and talk…. I can’t recognize such a person as properly joined to [b]the New Man[/b] that is the Christian church. [/i][emphasis mine][i]

Now, I must confess I loathe some of the denominational defamation that goes on in the name of Christ. So-called “discernment” ministries often have the biggest logs in their eyes.

Like I said…. I was an early evangelical fan of the Emergent Church. Yet, now I feel hoodwinked by them. With best selling books like "Blue like Jazz" Emergent leaders claim they are replacing “triumphalism” with meekness, and “absolutism” with honest doubt. Yet at the center of this meek doubt is a stiff commitment to triumph over orthodox faith with a new “spirituality” that does not recognize biblical concepts of sin, falling away, and idolatry. Sadly, such false light lacks a via negative to help define biblical concepts of love, forgiveness, and righteousness.

The past century has buffeted the church with some profound cultural hurricanes...it was just a matter of time before the levee would break in our churches allowing the world to start defining what it means to be a Christian. Intellectual and philosophic schools of thought that were famously anti-Christian are now shaping the theology of the local church...'

MC ~ October, 2005[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7695&forum=36]from : Confessions of an almost Emergent Christian[/url]

Brothertom,

I don't know you well at all, yet, but I can tell you're as serious about serving the Lord as anyone else here, and that's wonderful to behold - a great encouragement to the heart. I look forward to understanding your calling better, and enjoying your ministry to the body as we get to know each another more.

:-)

Dorcas; Thank you so much for setting me strait here, and MC, I repent in sackcloth and ashes on my fingertips :-o for any accusations identifying you with Oprah Winfrey and Al Gore as your tutors. YUK! what a slam....but please consider that I've never used a smiley until 30 seconds ago, and I took your post at "face" value, Ha!

Dorcas, I did take the time to read the entire post of Mike's about "emergence", and I enjoyed it, and it's clarity. I was saved in the very early 70's, and from day one, was involved in "radical, cutting edge," Christianity; not always on track 100%, a lot of pride and prejudice, but somehow I survived. Many, many, that I know, did not. Some have denied Christ, some have been consumed by the World, some by the Devil, some by the Flesh.

I guess the reason I survived is three fold; One, I had a dynamic conversion experience with the Holy Spirit flooding me for days, and from day one, I began to lead people to Christ, so they could be saved , and know him too. I was really Born Again!...Hallelujah!..Secondly, I had an intense hunger for the Bible, to devour it, and there was never a question whether it was the Truth, or the Word of God. Each moment I read the Word, the Holy Spirit leaped in me as He bore witness that this was the Eternal Truth and God talked to me through His Word!

Thirdly, in an epiphany experience with my sin and His wrath, and after being hung out over a real and literal Hell observing the terrifying torments of the dead,[This lasted several hours] I feared God. I am terrified to this hour, 20 years after that night, 16 years after I was born again.

Your right, I am anxious. I had the mercy given to me, and unmerited favor, to get grounded in The true gospel of Jesus, by faith. My grief and alarm, as I read many of these posts, is that unless there is a revelation of Jesus and a revelation that the Bible is God's word, how do these little ones have a prayer of survival? They will perish in their sins, as cool as they may think Jesus is.

There was much peer pressure to be cool, and be a Christian, to live a life, along with a reaction to the sterile , suit wearing, pew sitting, Bart Simpson type Pastors and churches,
that a venue was created. It's cool to be a Christian, and an aire of acceptance followed that God is love, so just "come as you are", and God isn"t a Judge, and we won't judge you either. Thereby a theology was created, as Mike pointed out so poignantly. Servant Evangelism evolved into a theology that if we would just silently hand out cokes with a smile on any corner USA, everyone would know that we are the good guys, and God is Love. Change light bulbs, rake lawns for Jesus, etc, etc.

The God is love theology evolved into a thinking that we no longer needed Roman's Road, the old Babtist method of sharing 4 or 5 scriptures out of Romans that defined sin and God's grace.[ It worked, a lot.] I personally know of one brother who was rebuked out of a church for sharing the Gospel with a Muslim, in Philadelphia. The Pastors were infuriated because this unbeliever had been attending for years, and they were sure that he was right on the edge of getting saved.{imagine that for 10 seconds] [how?] My friend told him that Jesus was the only way. The Islamic man told the pastors how offended he was, and my buddy got the ax.

Health, happiness, and prosperity for the individual and the church overthrew the archaic foundations of repent and believe and self denial as the only way to God, and Heaven. These came embracing all social categories, not just the young and hip, but the rich and the jet. Charles Schueller forbids any mention of sin, suffering, or the Blood , in his church or his famous and elite school in his church, and has done so for decades.

I shouldn't have to mention Joel Olsteen, and Rick Warren, as it obvious they hold similar views in the Man's eternal journey with God. "God is for you. He wants success to pour out of your being, as you speak, walk and give in this life. This is your purpose for BEING!"

The hip and young have similar apostolic voices, leading them wholesale into a belief system that is absolutely foreign to becoming as Christ, to have Christ formed in us by Him possessing us, as we look to His cross, deny ourselves, AS WE BEAR OUR CROSS. Two crosses. Not just "For God so loved the World", but the believing part too. The clinging, the trusting, the obeying part too. That's believing in Bible reality, not "come as you are", but turn from as you are, and He will give you power to BECOME A SON OR DAUGHTER OF GOD.

"in the latter days, perilous times will arise, and some will fall away from the faith"

Where are the Fathers?

My love in Christ. Tom

Brothertom, thank you for taking time to read more, and for the synopsis of your testimony.

MIke said

Always risky

Tom, yes, the Lord is coming in judgement to set the world anew.

this does not absolve us of our responsibility to our fellow humans and the earth.

from what i read in your posts, we should just trash the earth because we don't need it and it is not important. God will save us.

such disregard for nature and others, such contempt for the Creation as a gift given to us, such blithe, banal, contempt for the rights of others and the gifts of God i haven't encountered very often. you seem to be proud of it.

bub

Bub, where are these quotes about contempt and disregard for Creation, {which you don't seem to believe anyhow], and what about my "contempt concerning the rights of others," and my "contempt for the gifts of God???"

" Blithe and banal"? My posts are based in God,s Word mostly, and if there is contempt, it appears it may be emitting from someone other than me.

Please be more specific. I just don't want folks to go to Hell unneccesarily by believing a lie.

"THY WORD IS TRUTH."

Tom, here you go.

"The Pope is Al Gore, and the queen of Heaven is Oprah....and it really isn't New Age...just for our age. ....The same old Earth Worship of Babel, and behind that, sit Powers, and Principalities, and Spiritual Wickedness in High Places, enraged that they were unseated from Heaven, waging war against Yahweh and His Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

Threaded in this deception is another THEORY..Global warming[ by the way 2007 was cooler, is mamma earth catching a cold??]and that carbon fuel[oil and such] is the cause. Again, those bad humans!, All going back to the Demonic Creation worship of God in the rocks, sky, SUN,, and let us not forget.....US. WE are gods! and We must SAVE the Earth."

this sound like contempt to me. anybody who cares about the very significant impact that humans are having on the earth . . . is an earth worshiping pagan, according to this.

have you ever met Al Gore, read any of his books? he is a smart man, a Christian, and cares deeply about his fellow humans. but you disparage him as if he were actively leading an anti-christian, pro-pagan, cult. this is just simple callousness and utter nonsense. when you speak about your own life and convictions, i believe you. but, when you speak of others, as you have done here, you sound like anything goes for truth, as long as it fits the anti-intellectual anti-science agenda.

bub

PS. i firmly believe in the creation, but i intepret Genesis differently than some, as i allow for evidence of evolution as part of the Story.

Thank you so much for clarifying your position. I believe you have clearly understood my position, and I must say that I am sorry. You have accurately portrayed me, for what I am, and am not. Christ's love,,, Tom

Yea Al, is making big bucks off Global warning products. Quite a bit of stink been raised since they did a study showing that temps have actually been cooler lately instead of hotter. Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Also heard that Al's jet dumped fuel into the atmosphere awhile back, to set aside all the fuel the jet burns running around the country preaching energy conservation. Be sure your sins will find you out.