Wilkerson Has Partaken Of "Holy" Laughter?

sermonindex Jun 16, 2004

In his sermon, found on this iste, "The Gift Of Righteousness", Pastor David Wilkerson claims that he believes in and has experienced the manifestation os uncontrollable laughter; he claims in this sermon that this was of the Holy Ghost. (Begin listening to the particular sermon in question at 4 minutes)Now, here's the problem:Pastor Wilkerson literally blasts the holy laughter movement in his sermonn "Reproach of the Solemn Assembly"; he says, "thousands are dying...what are you laughing about?"Would someone please explain this apparent contradiction to me?Daniel

jeremyhulsey Jun 16, 2004

Daniel,There is a world of difference between laughing for joy in the Lord because He is making you holy, and an unsanctified person manifesting laughter in the face of an unchanged life.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

Amen Jeremy! I agree!The only problem is that Wilkerson said and claimed to have UNCONTROLLABLE laughter and he SPECIFICALLY said he was NOT coming against the laughter movement in his sermon. Check the sermon out and get back.In Christ, Brother Daniel

RobertW Jun 17, 2004

When I listened to the sermon it seems that it was a bit older compared to some of the more recent sermons. Based upon what I have followed in His ministry I would say that he certainly did not intend to identify himself with what we regard now as the "Holy Laughter Movement" with Rodney Howard Brown and others. Scaling the language barrier is sometimes difficult as we may use similar or identical terms and be pouring different meanings into those words (or catch phrases). When He spoke of his laughter it seemed to be more of a personal testimony of God working in Him something that He certainly did not go to seed on and felt it was an isolated thing given of God for a certain purpose at a certain time. This is WAY different than the Holy Ghost Bartender madness that vexes anyone who is concerned with genuine repentance. Wilkerson has wept much over the years in sermons I have heard and if God in his prayer closet deemed it necessary to pour a very special grace upon him, I would not interpret that as partaking of "Holy Laughter" in the coercive and vexing fashion which those who have promoted and probigated it. Wilkerson has preached more tears to me than he ever could laughter. Often he silences the crowd when they try to applaud or laugh or something. As for Jimmy Swaggart; pointing out apparent contradictions in Dave Wilkerson's ministry will not rebuild Jimmy Swaggart's. I have attended his crusades and defended him in the late 80's as so many wanted to see him come down. I have listened frequently to Sonlife Radio to see where Jimmy seems to be in terms of His walk with God and the focus of his ministry. I was priveledged just last year to hear him RARELY discuss his fall into sin and I took some fairly good notes. Jimmy has historically taken on a lot of people in his time (Jim Baker, PTL, etc.). He is more effective preaching the CROSS. If Jimmy Swaggart is ever to be restored to a place of ministry and repentance and holiness style messages; God is going to have to do it. In the mean time we must refrain from sowing discord among brethren as it is an abomination to God. If there is one thing that really upsets me its to see my boys arguing and fighting. That is a real NO-NO! Is it not also the grief of God's heart? God Bless,

crsschk Jun 17, 2004

Thanks Robert, most helpful!

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

The only problem is that Wilkerson said and claimed to have UNCONTROLLABLE laughter and he SPECIFICALLY said he was NOT coming against the laughter movement in his sermon. Brother Daniel I am just wondering what point you are trying to come to? Are you saying that Wilkerson is pro for some of the laughter revival manifestations? I know that he is strongly preaching against the prosperity movement, and I do believe him and carter conlon are firmly against most of these phenomenon that don't line up with the scriptures. I personally was able to go to NYC about 8 months or more ago and I visited TSC and Brooklyn Tabernacle and there was no manifestations such as laughter and the sort but just full-heartly worship and preaching of truth from the scriptures.

TheophilusMD Jun 17, 2004

When He spoke of his laughter it seemed to be more of a personal testimony of God working in Him something that He certainly did not go to seed on and felt it was an isolated thing given of God for a certain purpose at a certain time. This is WAY different than the Holy Ghost Bartender madness that vexes anyone who is concerned with genuine repentance.I was in the church when Ps. David preached that message and, yes, it was a personal testimony of how the Lord made him laugh. I have sat under Ps. Dave's ministry since February 1993 and since Ps.Carter Conlon came to Time Square Church and not once was there any laughter manifestation in the church like the "bartender madness." That our pastors are against this "movement," as it is called, is both unequivocal and explicit.

Rahman Jun 17, 2004

I think the following scriptures pretty much sums up the consequences of any Christian not practicing what we preach, and especially those of us in the national and international eye ...Rom.2[1] Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.[2] But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.[3] And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?[4] Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?[5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:[7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:[8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,[9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;[10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:[11] For there is no respect of persons with God.[21] Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?[22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?[23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?[24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.[25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.Gal.6[1] Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.[2] Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.[3] For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.[4] But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.[5] For every man shall bear his own burden.[6] Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.I'm so glad that our Lord has brought me to such a place of Christian maturity that I no longer stumble when other men of God (whomever) trip and fall (for whatever reason) ... Know why? ... Because my faith, hope and trust is in Jesus Christ alone ... Only He is infallible, sinless and worthy of casting stones ... Amen

TheophilusMD Jun 17, 2004

I think the following scriptures pretty much sums up the consequences of any Christian not practicing what we preach, and especially those of us in the national and international eyeMaybe I did not explain it well. It is best to listen again to the exact words said by Ps. David Wilkerson. The reason why he gave the testimony is to differentiate what's happening in the "holy laughter movement" and a genuine experience of joy in the Holy Ghost.

Rahman Jun 17, 2004

TheophilusMD,My post was a double entendre of which you may not know about, which has to do with another thread that brother Daniel posted in regards Jimmy Swaggart, and how so many Christians have judged him so adversly ...So what my post addresses is whether a man of God is fallen from grace and judged in carnal sexual sin by many, or whether he falls from grace by seeming to totally waffle docrinally, in the greater panorama of God's plan our preoccupation with such matters is like our straining at gnats while swallowing camels ... The bottom line being that if any person in God doesn't practice what we preach, adverse reaping is gonna come because it's a universal law of God ... Brother Swaggart has certainly reaped adversly and still is, and right now brother Wilkerson seems to be in question by brother Daniel regarding whether or not he's waffled doctrinally on this horrible laughing revival craze ...I listened to the sermon in question and was shocked to hear Brother Wilkerson say that he's laughed for hours in the Spirit, and it certainly sounded contridictory to me in light of his withering sermon against said laughter craze ... But are we gonna stumble, and question, and argue, and harraunge, and judge the people of God who trip and fall? ... Or are we gonna keep stepping in our own pace with the Lord, while praying that our fallen commrades will be quick to getting back up in repentance, and be humble enough to accept the fact that their fall is gonna bring them a certain time of reaping adversly ... So here are my main points scripturally, secumb to (in the dark) what you vehemently contradict and it will turn around and ravage you visciously (in the light) ... We reap in spades what we sow ... whatever it is ...If brother Wilkerson is guilty of having in his eye the splinter of attempting to fit in by becoming one of the laughing boys, then brother Daniel's question is but the genesis of his adverse reaping ... I hope this makes better sense, if not I rest from this thread for I've got my hands full (as the Spirit has so recently reminded me) with this giant beam protruding from my own eye ...In Him,Bro. R

jeremyhulsey Jun 17, 2004

After listening to this sermon, it doesn't sound like any kind of endorsement for the Holy Laughter movement. He's just not condemning those who have had an experience with the Lord as though all "holy laughter" is intrisicly evil or a false manifestation. There are testimonies from some very godly people early in the Pentecostal movement that reported experiencing holy laughter. It's not that "holy laughter" is automaticly bad, but that there is a categorical and qualitative difference between one who is experiencing the Lord and another who is being confirmed in their rebellion.I have one sermon where Bro. Wilkerson talks about himself being slain in the Spirit. He contrasts the true against the false. His final statement went something like "If the Lord's gonna lay you down, He's gonna lay down a clean vessel!" The jist of his sermon was that we often bypass the laver of cleansing to go straight to the altar for a blessing.(I'll have to search my tapes to see exactly which sermon it is.)I came up with a statement at bible school that sort of goes with this, "Truth without fire is dead. But fire without truth is deadly."In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

Your statement on the issue was brief and certainly to the point!I could not have said it better myself!Notice in my originbal post I DEFINATELY did not claim wilkerson was "endorsing" the various movements and false revivals among us; I was simply ASKING.... :)Why did I post this issue? To receive individual responses to Wilkerson's sermon.Husley, you LITERALLY have stated what I have always believed...each word posted by you is the word in my own heart.I have been "slain" in the Spirit twice in my life as a Believer; once when I was 17 years old and once when i was 24, and the same PAOC Evangelist (Silas Matchett) prayed for me on both occassions, and this man is a Holiness Pentecostal who knows his God as all do who are truly Redeemed.Both occassions I was literally struck to the floor weeping and sobbing over the Holiness of God and my own sin present before me; both times a definate change took place, a softening of my heart towards the Spirit of Christ.Does God move? Yes!The thing I learned at VBCI (Victory Bible Colleges International) is that the Lord moves in PATTERNS, PROMISES and in STRANGE WAYS, as David described His Spirit in Psalms.Example: Philip ran as fast as the Chariot in Acts; however, does God give a promise, "Thou canst run as fast as a car" ? No; thus we call this a STRANGE ACT of God.Example: People all through the Book of Acts prayed in other Tongues, prophesied, spoke the Word with boldness,etc etc, and in ACts 2:39 it says that the Gift of the Spirit is a PROMISE to all who are afar off.....The Spirit in PERSON is a PROMISE indeed.Example: Each time a nation/individual turned FROM God TO idols/sin, God's PATTERN was to pour out wrath....EVERY SINGLE TIME, except where repentance was sought and found.Thus, Wilkerson and anyone else who has had experiences that are starnage are not always in "the wrong".My Pastor friend (best friend and Mentor, Pastor Daniel Jalbert who is also a friend of TSC) saya it like this: If God gives you an experience that cannot be validated by the WHOLE of Scripture, tell no one and leave it to you and the Lord alone as precious and special between you and He.Pastor Dan Lirette

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

No, dear brother; not implying, suggesting or doing otherwise with this issue on Wilkerson.What was my point? My point was simply that I wanted input from others; Wilkerson DID make reference to personal UNcontrollable laughter and he also, in other sermons, blasted the laughter Movement.I think the issue DESERVES probing, don't you and others believe so?I asked a Pastor friend of mine to hear it and he was confused as he listened to Wilkerson...and you will note some other posts here which show the same.The issue IS and issue, dear brother.....Now, PERSONALLY, I love Wilkerson and know that he is NOT agreeing with the Laughter Movement in any way.....It IS good to know if OTHERS see it the same and if not, shouldn't we explain to them what Wilkerson is truly saying here instead of allowing the young and weak to believe something that WIlkerson is NOT even claiming?Point is, and the posts bear it out, that people HAVE misunderstood Wilkerson.Now we have a chance to show that Wilkerson was NOT referring to HIS laughter experience as that of the Toronto style experience.GBUDaniel

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

Brother Robet; are you upset with any of my posts? It seems that you have taken a vengeful stance against me and/or my posts.Just wanted to know, sinmce these are your words....."As for Jimmy Swaggart; pointing out apparent contradictions in Dave Wilkerson's ministry will not rebuild Jimmy Swaggart's." Brother, my Swaggart and Wilkerson post have NOTHING to do with one another and I am NOT seeking to discredit Wilkerson; he's the best Man of God alive and with us today presently.Why would you believe I was seeking to discredit Wilkerson?Pray, my dear Brother, when making such a statement as that as you have.You claim that I wanted to discredit Wilkerson to build up Jimmy Swaggart?That is certainly not ANYTHING that I sought to do; I love and listen to both of these men on a consistent and regular basis.Swaggart and Wilkerson are two of my all time favorite ministers.Though your words show a clear slant against Swaggart himself, I will say that I need not discredit anyone, Wilkerson or otherwise, to "rebuild Swaggart's Ministry"...God will hold Swaggart up, brother...not Dan Lirette.God is the lifter of men's souls; and He delights in taking care of Swaggart and all others who have repented.GBUDaniel.

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

My point was simply that I wanted input from others; Wilkerson DID make reference to personal UNcontrollable laughter and he also, in other sermons, blasted the laughter Movement.Thank you for clarifying brother but I would like you to consider that the method you used to attract attention to your point was not done that well. I first off had the impression by reading the title that Wilkerson is part of the laughing revival movement and if a person doesnt take the time to read the entire thread they might draw a quite assumetion or conclusion. There has been and continues to be much flack towards brother Wilkerson. Even at one point Wilkerson concedes of not even wanting to go to church because people on the streets would say 'are you a false prophet?' etc and it would grieve him so much. Thats why I think it would be better to rather speak of wilkerson in this situation in better terms.I think brother Hulsey came up with a great summation of the matter and I would also say that no man is perfect as your stated also brother daniel.This might seem abit off topic but im a firm believer in the principle of seeking light and truth and the darkness will be exposed as a consequence. If I am stumbling around in the dark with a lamp and trying to point out all the wrong things it will end up being a futility. But rather if I (we) as the body of Christ become once again the light and salt of the earth, then the counterfeit christianity will be seen for what it is.Brother Keith Daniel gives this call very powerfully in this sermon: The Sermon on the Mount (video)

sermonindex Jun 17, 2004

First, Brother Greg, let me say MSN Messnger just cut out! So I came here! heheI agree with your statement fully, and if i seemed to have posted my thread in a manner that may not have been appropriate to some, I ask your forgiveness.One contention, however, with a statement you made, Brother Greg:"...I think it would be better to rather speak of wilkerson in this situation in better terms."Should this not apply to Swaggart and any other we make reference to?Thank you also for pointing out the method used; greater wisdom wiull be used next time; God DID promise to give me some ;) lol. Damniel

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

Should this not apply to Swaggart and any other we make reference to?I would think there is a volume of difference between swaggart and wilkerson. The maturity and determination in his walk with God is something that is note worthy and to be admired. Wilkerson seems to have been through much controvesy and has spoken out on many key issues: judgement, false gospels, etc. He has been faithful with his call of a watchman over the nation of America and I pray God keeps him true to that purpose. If brother wilkerson feel into dubious sin of a manner that is not to be named once amongst the saints then I would say that would be a very damaging witness to the entire body of Christ in America.Towards brother Swaggart, I believe as do others that he has truly repented. But he cannot expect to gain back spiritual success and the favor of the people. And what really worries me is that He is acted as though nothing really happened and rarely mentions his backslidding. I would think he would be a broken man now in the hands of the potter and be more grave and serious over spiritual matters. I watched him on the internet TV once a few months back and he was having a good ole pentecostal time, which is fine! but as I said there is volumes of difference between Wilkerson and Swaggart. And not to be make more dissension but wouldn't your reasoning apply to other men such as John Wimber, Kenneth Copeland and the likes who if you did ask them would say they are seeking the face of God like no other man. I am sure all these men repented also, will not the judge of all the earth do right? I think many man's souls are in God's hands and we can speculate but rather that energy would be better used preaching the 'true gospel' the truth that is in Jesus Christ. And stop focussing on the falacies of others even how dubious and maligned they are.The church needs to be the salt of the earth once again.

Tears_of_joy Jun 18, 2004

I first off had the impression by reading the title that Wilkerson is part of the laughing revival movement and if a person doesnt take the time to read the entire thread they might draw a quite assumetion or conclusion.For this reason, I suggest the title of this thread to be changed.It really gives bad impression for those who don't know and haven't heard brother Wilkerson and will read only the title.

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

To all who think/believe that the title of this post implies Wilkerson as one of the "laughing believers"...well, without AT ALL seeking to be ignorant or unloving (and I mean that Brethren).... let me ask:Does anyone understand what the rules of English Composition are measured by?Take a look at the title.... You don't even have to GLIMPSE at it to see the question mark (?) .It's called a question; not a statement.Within a question there can never be any implication except by the own biased perception of the reader; this is Composition friends.If any of you have taken the title to be offensive or imlicated, according to the ruled of English, it HAS to be because of a perceived interpretation on YOUR part, simply because a question mark completely excludes any statement of fact, and gives only a query.Why is it that some write about the TITLE? It's not a title; it's an imposed (not implied) statement.Daniel

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

It's not a title; it's an imposed (not implied) statement.Dan Lirette, A False Prophet? Brother I think the above example shows that this is not always a suitable method to draw a conclusion. Clearly the above statement is not correct you are not a false prophet but it brings into peoples minds the idea of you being one, Therefore to address the subject away from the person's name would be more suitable? I really never learnt english grammer and was a drop out in school but it seems like better edicate.

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

This will be my final post on THIS topic in particular, as there seems to be no agreement on some issues, and I'd rather not let petty "stuff" get in the way with the Brethren.... I will say in conclusion:Concerning Wilkerson and Swaggart:Does the Lord Mdraw a distinction between Swaggart and Wilkerson? You have implied He does."I would think there is a volume of difference between swaggart and wilkerson."Would Jeuss draw this distinction?If a man lies and repents, does the Lord tell us to never trust that one again?If a man steals and repents, does God tell us to never allow him to borrow again?If a man gossips, should we withdraw from that brother and treat him as if there is a "world of difference" between us? Reading your post is hurtful, Greg, to say the least.Those who would believe that there is a difference between men who have fallen and men who have not are in error in this area, Brother."Wilkerson seems to have been through much controvesy and has spoken out on many key issues: judgement, false gospels, etc. He has been faithful with his call of a watchman over the nation of America""Towards brother Swaggart, I believe as do others that he has truly repented. But he cannot expect to gain back spiritual success and the favor of the people."He cannot expect to gain the favour of the people back, Brother Greg?He gained mine and MILLIONS back to what the Lord had orignially called him to.The thing that bothers me the most and grieves me terribly is this:"And what really worries me is that He is acted as though nothing really happened and rarely mentions his backslidding. I would think he would be a broken man now in the hands of the potter and be more grave and serious over spiritual matters."You imply Swaggart isn't serious about his former backsliding, Brother Greg.You believe he should be more grave and serious.Brother, watch the broadcast where he repented to the entire world.Brother, watch those tears flow and see him weep over his sin.Brother, watch it over and over again.Is Swaggart to confess a sin he fell into over a DECADE ago?a DECADE, Brother Greg, and you make these statements concerning a man who has repented long before you and I were even FIRST saved?Brother, I speak these things in love and I pray that you see it as such; my heart is not upset or angry or resentful.You make mention that I came against Copeland etc etc..... "And not to be make more dissension but wouldn't your reasoning apply to other men such as John Wimber, Kenneth Copeland and the likes who if you did ask them would say they are seeking the face of God like no other man."Brother Greg, I have asked these men, personally.I was a Word Of Faith Follower for 5 years+.I asked these men EVERYTHING before I spoke ONE THING against them.I studied these men and their doctrines (as well as all other foundational doctrines!; I don't spend my time on Copeland, I assure you)for two solid years before EVER saying a word.Now, the difference here?There IS a difference.The statements all of these men have made are false concerning their Chistology, Pneumatology, Eschatology, etc etc....blatantly heretical to say the LEAST.These men preach another Jesus while Swaggart and Wilkerson preach the Cross; and to be more specific, Swaggart, since 1996, has preached NOTHING but the Cross...ALL of his messages are all pointed back to Calvary as the main source of the Zoe Life of God.He preaches it MORE than Wilkerson; MORE than Conlon; MORE than anyone I have heard yet.(I know Wilkerson and Conlon preach Calvary...I am simply saying that in Audio and Video Swaggart tops them and most others in preaching the Cross.)Did you know that in 1996 God showed Swaggart the Revelation of the Cross and what it means to the Believer's Walk With God Today?Did you know that Swaggart WAS humble enough to say he had no idea about the Cross prior to 1996 as he does now?Did you know that Swaggart claims he had no power over sin before the Power of the Cross overtook him?I can send you and any others the Video Sermon without any hesitation whatsoever.The point is that in this post you have implied so many things that are simply mistaken.And lastly, and not to be ignorant AT ALL:"I think many man's souls are in God's hands and we can speculate but rather that energy would be better used preaching the 'true gospel' the truth that is in Jesus Christ. And stop focussing on the falacies of others even how dubious and maligned they are."You tell me not to focus on the fallacies of others and yet you cut Swaggart down in just about 62% of your post...except for the one mention that you "believe Swaggart repented".Brother, that isn't right.Forget about Churchianity; look to the Word and see, REALLY see, if God anywhere draws a distinction between people as you have implied.I come short of verses when seeking to see that a Minister can be taken out of a pulpit for a sin comitted over a decade ago.I come up short when I look for the Scriptures on whether or not a man who has fallen can regain the favour of the people.It's not there Greg and you have not treated this issue fairly.I only make mention of this because it goes to show how you would think of other men of God who at one time have fallen.God doesn't see people like that and who are we to cause a repentant man to suffer reproach?Possibly the reason Swaggart may never gain favour back is because his own brothers and sisters malign him before the world.:)Daniel

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

Does the Lord Mdraw a distinction between Swaggart and Wilkerson? You have implied He does.I am afraid we have lost the conception of the Old Testament and the Holiness of God. There are many accounts of God saying for instance in the book of ezekiel or jeremiah that he would not halt the judgement on the nation if Moses or other saints where before him inbetween the people pleading for Gods mercy. Why would God hear there cries over a menial servant that believed God? They were undefiled and walking in obedience before God.Jeremiah 15:1 - Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.Ezekiel 14:14 - Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.Is wilkerson in a place with God where he is giving forth his message to many millions of people for nothing? no he has been walking in obedience with God and has shown himself faithful towards God. And God has a vested interest in his servant that has been faithful with the smaller things and is been given larger things. If you are saying to me that Swaggert's sin has not affected his ministry (not just physically) but also his spiritual maturity and stature with God, then you are mistaken. He has definetly lost years even decades of spiritual growth in the months of backslidding. I can attest to this that its true in my life that backslidding into any practice of sin for a short time ruins your spiritual growth.Yes the Lord is merciful and will show mercy. But the consequences of sin are very real and the Lord does not wink at inquity in a believers life. I remember reading a sermon by George Whitefield where he emphatically states with sorrow of his own experience that you can lose years of spiritual maturity with God in one day of backslidding.. and his warning to the church of Christ... DONT backslide, stay close to Jesus in obedience and love. (I am sure he was saying it with tears in his eyes, knowing the errovacable damage it would cause in many of peoples lifes). And yes it has been a long decade and I am sure he has gotten back much of what the locusts have eaten but still brother you cannot expect that everything is 'dandy' and fine.I remember the words of A.W. Tozer saying that in his life he felt he already committed to much sin and was not in the tender place of God using him in a mighty way to restore 'christendom'. How sad people calling themselves the 'choice' of the Lord and setting themselves in the place of a prophet or one that hears from the Lord, when a man of God like A.W. Tozer who walked so faithfully with His Holy God, A God I am not ashamed to call my own, and considered himself still not worthy. But God did use that man of God mightly but he was not the prophet calling the nation back to God as he felt he was not worthy of. God has his people no doubt, even wilkerson would attest that there is a race of men that are going extinct that he would barely even equivicate himself with. A race of men that are close to the Lord as a moses or samuel. I consider brother Wilkerson to be very close to Gods heart and he has treaded a long path with him. And I do consider in the light of all of this that its doubtful wether Swaggart is in that same place yet? This is not hero-worship or placing a man on a pedestool but the fact of the matter is that God has standards spiritually that we have lost as a church and I pray that they are restored. I am catching glimpses of things I am not worthy to grasp and I have a very long way to go with God but I know he is Holy and does not shrug at inquity, if we only knew."Towards brother Swaggart, I believe as do others that he has truly repented. But he cannot expect to gain back spiritual success and the favor of the people."I am sorry that I didn't fully elaborate with that thought. I was trying to get across the idea that he did backslide and did repent but he should not think he can get back to that same place with God in one day, one year, one decade, maybe never? We all make mistakes and I pray that my mistakes are not ones that have stunted my spiritual growth and potential with God. Look at the story of Sampson. He committed a sin that cost him dearly and he was used again brother no doubt but consider his consquences of sin. I do pray and hope that Swaggart is used more than ever before. All for the glory of Jesus Christ! It's not there Greg and you have not treated this issue fairlyBrother I hope that I am not considered unfair in my comments I am willing to elaborate further on specific points, and I am very open to being shown if I am wrong in any way. I am definetly far from perfect and am still learning to utilize this textual method of communication, I need to work on my grammer and get some more vocabulary. :-P p.s. if you can write in paragraph form its easier on my eyes.

RobertW Jun 18, 2004

Beloved,In response to the question of how I responded to the earlier posts I feel, as Bro. Mike said, if you come in with "guns blazing" (end of his quote and beginning of mine)- you can't expect people who know nothing about you or what you are saying to sit back and watch the flicker of the blue steel. The way in which the posts were made got a rise out of nearly everyone. Even myself, who have like yourself, follow Dave Wilkerson AND Jimmy Swaggart. I have been listening to Jimmy Swaggart since I was a little kid and concur with much of what you say- but your tone even stirred up a friendly. :-oWhat happened with Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker is more of a concern to me. I hope these two men have reconciled. My brother was just down in Branson about a year ago and sat down for a bit and talked to Jim Baker. That, to me, shows some humility. He renounced the madness he once taught. He was willing to sit down with a common man who he didn't know from Adam. The day I see these two men embrace- I will know there has been a change!!! :-) When I heard Jimmy talk about his fall on SonLife it was a real eye opener. I recall from memory two specific things he said:1) He went out into the woods and just looked up to heaven and cried out to God... "Here I am Lord"... "Here I am"...2) That you can't fight World War II in SECRET!He described his battle with sin and lust as WWII! And it was only a matter of time before it became evident to the public. And he went on to say, as you stated in an earlier post, that he did not have the key to victory until around 1996. I personally believe he has something to say to the body of Christ; but as I have said earlier, if Jimmy Swaggart's ministry is going to be resurrected- GOD is going to have to do it. I do pray and hope that Swaggart is used more than ever before. All for the glory of Jesus Christ! In the times I have been on this site I cannot recall someone downing Jimmy even once. Maybe I missed a post. I think it would have been better to have given a testimony of how God was working through SonLife and Jimmy and focus on that- rather than leaving us with an impression (which may not have been intended) that there was some sort of rift between these two men of God. That was the clear impression I got. Please forgive likewise my misunderstanding. I think things are pretty cleared up now. I certainly am NOT angry, or upset in the least. I especially am not vengeful. I prefer to promote a constructive conversation about these men that is positive and deals with the negatives with charity. I'm sure we all want that. Brother I hope that I am not considered unfair in my comments I am willing to elaborate further on specific points, and I am very open to being shown if I am wrong in any way. I am definetly far from perfect and am still learning to utilize this textual method of communication, I need to work on my grammer and get some more vocabulary.Bro. Greg, I did not at all consider the comments unfair. They were a response to the situation that appeared to most of us to have been going on. Your grammer is fine. ;-)

sermonindex Jun 18, 2004

In conclusion to this post (and this will be my last response on this topic)let me summarize briefly:First, this post was not even about Swaggart; it was a question concerning Wilkerson. (It just happened that Swaggart's name was mentioned by most of us along the way).Second, and this is to Brother Greg, I believe your heart is in the right place and I pray that you see that mine is also.Neither you nor I will conceded certain points; thus, let us move on and believe God to work changes in our hearts concerning that which we are in error with, BOTH you and I.I am a very strong leveled individual and never will I concede certain points; one of these points is in how God treats the repentant.Thus, let us move on.Lastly, Wilkerson and Swaggart and any other who knows the True Gospel and lives it is a Man of God in the Kingdom.To be quite honest everyone, I'm really not concerned about continuing to nit pick people apart unless there is abberant theology and a false gospel being presented.Why not take all of these things to the Lord? And this is also directed to myself, which I have done and am presently doing.What God have placed in my heart as convictions I will never concede as all here will do the same.Let's move on, seeing that all of us are in the Way, if that Christ Jesus is of a truth in us.Pastor D

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