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The Calvinism Debate - Part I

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Nevermind this post - see Part I

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[color=CC0000][i]I dont always find myself in agreement with David Cloud on some matters, but on the issue of Calvinism I find myself in almost 100% agreement.

This is VERY lengthy, but well worth the read.

And I'm sure right off the bat the Calvinists will howl "He doesnt understand Calvinism!" ... but I say he understands it better than most Calvinists!

This is in TWO parts...

Krispy[/i][/color]

[b]The Calvinism Debate - Part I[/b]
by David Cloud

Calvinism is a theology that was developed by John Calvin (1509-64) in the sixteenth century. He presented this theology in his Institutes of Christian Religion, which subsequently became the cornerstone of Presbyterian and Reformed theology. It is also called TULIP theology. Calvin himself did not use the term TULIP to describe his theology, but it is an accurate, though simplified, representation of his views, and every standard point of TULIP theology can be found in Calvin’s Institutes.

Calvinistic theology was summarized into five points during the debate over the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). Arminius studied under Theodore Beza, Calvin’s successor at Geneva, but he rejected Calvinism and taught his non-Calvinist theology in Holland. Arminius’ followers arranged his teaching under the following five points and began to distribute this theology among the Dutch churches in 1610: (1) Free will, or human ability, (2) Conditional election, (3) Universal Redemption, or General Atonement, (4) Resistible Grace, and (5) Insecure Faith. These points were rejected at the state-church Synod of Dort in Holland in 1618-1619 (attended as well by representatives from France, Germany, Switzerland, and Britain), and this Synod formulated the “five points of Calvinism” in resistance to Arminianism. Arminius followers were thereafter put out of their churches and persecuted by their Calvinist brethren.

In the late 18th century, the five points of Calvinism were rearranged under the acronym TULIP as a memory aid.

A Summary of TULIP Theology

Total Depravity: Man is totally corrupt and dead in his sin so that he cannot even respond to the gospel unless God sovereignly enables him, which only happens if he is one of the elect. God not only must enable the dead sinner but must sovereignly regenerate him and give him the gift of faith. In the words of the Westminster Confession Total Depravity is defined as follows: “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean merely that the sinner has no righteousness of his own or that his heart is depraved. It means also that his will is in bondage to sin in such a fashion that he is unable to believe the gospel. Further, it means that he must therefore be born again before he can believe. Arthur Pink states this doctrine as follows: “Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. ... Faith is a spiritual grace, the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because the unregenerate are spiritually dead--‘dead in trespasses and sins’--then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a dead man cannot believe anything” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 73).

Unconditional Election: God unconditionally and “sovereignly” elects who will be saved and this election has nothing to do with anything the sinner does, including exercising faith in the gospel. Consider the words of the Westminster Confession: “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ... The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.” John Calvin expressed the doctrine of unconditional election in these words: “Predestination we call the decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny: but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 21). Calvin emphasized his belief in sovereign reprobation as follows: “[God] devotes to destruction whom he pleases … they are predestinated to eternal death without any demerit of their own, merely by his sovereign will. … he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name by glorified in their destruction. ... God chooses whom he will as his children … while he rejects and reprobates others” (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 23).

Limited Atonement: The death of Christ was only for those God has sovereignly elected. Calvin denounced the universal offer of the Gospel. “When it appears that when the doctrine of salvation is offered to all for their effectual benefit, it is a corrupt prostitution of that which is declared to be reserved particularly for the children of the church” (Institutes, Book III, chap. 22).

Irresistible Grace: God’s call to the elect is effectual and cannot be resisted. The dead sinner is sovereignly regenerated and granted the “gift of faith.” “That some, in time, have faith given them by God, and others have it not given, proceeds from his eternal decree; for ‘known unto God are all his works from the beginning,’ etc. (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). According to which decree he graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however hard, and he bends them to believe; but the non-elect he leaves, in his judgment, to their own perversity and hardness” (summary derived from the Synod of Dort). The Westminster Confession adds the following: “This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved...”

Perseverance of the Saints: Those who are sovereignly elected and regenerated will continue in the faith. “Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” (Abstract of Principles, 1858).

SOME INTRODUCTORY POINTS

1. I HAVE STUDIED CALVINISM FROM “THE HORSE’S MOUTH.” In order to gain a proper understanding of Calvinism, I have studied the writings of many influential Calvinists, both contemporary and past. I have examined Calvinism many times during the 32 years since I was saved. The first time was shortly after I was converted, when I was in Bible College, and Calvinism was one of the many topics that were strenuously discussed by the students. I had never heard of Calvinism before that and I didn’t know what to think of it, so I read Arthur Pink’s The Sovereignty of God and a couple of other titles on the subject with a desire to understand it and to know whether it was scriptural or not. Some of the students became Calvinists, but I concluded that though Calvinism makes some good points about the sovereignty of God and though I personally like the way it exalts God above man and though I agree with its teaching that salvation is 100% of God and though I despise and reject the shallow, manipulative, man-centered soul winning scheme that is so common among independent Baptists and though it does seem to be supported by a few Scriptures, the bottom line to me is that it ends up contradicting far too many plain Scriptures.

In the year 2000 I was invited to preach at a conference on Calvinism at Heritage Baptist University in Greenwood, Indiana, that was subsequently held in April of 2001. The conference was opposed to Calvinism; and I agreed to speak, because I have been in sympathy with such a position ever since I first examined the subject in Bible College. Before I put together a message for the conference, though, I wanted to re-examine Calvinism in a more thorough manner. I contacted Dr. Peter Masters in London, England, and discussed the subject of Calvinism with him. I told him that I love and respect him in Christ and I also love and respect his predecessor, Charles Spurgeon, though I do not agree with either of them on Calvinism (or on some issues, in fact). I told Dr. Masters that I wanted him to tell me what books he would recommend so that I could properly understand what he believes on the subject (knowing that there are many varieties of Calvinism). I did not want to misrepresent anything. Among other things, Dr. Masters recommended that I read Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion and Iain Murray’s Spurgeon vs. the Hyper-Calvinists, which I did.

In the last couple of years I have again re-investigated Calvinism from both sides. I read Dave Hunt’s “What Love Is This?” and “A Calvinist’s Honest Doubts Resolved by Reason and God’s Amazing Grace.” I read “Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views” by Dave Hunt and James White. I carefully re-read Arthur Pink’s “The Sovereignty of God” as well as the “Westminster Confession of Faith.” I have also studied about 100 pages of materials published in defense of Calvinism by the Far Eastern Bible College in Singapore. This is a Bible Presbyterian school.

As best as I know how, I have studied these materials with the sole desire to know the truth and with a willingness to follow the truth wherever it leads.

Thus, while I have not read every book on this subject that could be recommended by my readers, I have made a considerable effort to understand Calvinism properly and not to misrepresent it (though I have learned that a non-Calvinist will ALWAYS be charged with misrepresentation).

2. BAPTISTS MUST FACE THE ISSUE OF CALVINISM. It is a divisive subject, but it must be faced because it touches some of the most important points of biblical truth and affects how Christians perceive of the gospel and the very person of God. It is interesting to observe that there have always been divisions among Baptists on the issue of Calvinism. The early Baptists in England were divided into the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists, referring to how they viewed Christ’s atonement, as to whether it was for all men (general) or only for the elect (particular). Adam Taylor’s History of the General Baptists of England (1818) deals with the history of the non-Calvinist Baptists in Great Britain, and there were a large number of them. To my knowledge, Taylor is the only 19th-century British Baptist historian who was not a Calvinist. It is certain that the vast majority of Baptist histories are written by Calvinists and they typically neglect and sometimes misreport the history and beliefs of the non-Calvinist Baptists. Be that as it may, the fact remains that Baptists have always been divided on this issue and it is not wise to draw back from dealing with it today, even though divisions are certainly the result.

3. FEW THINGS HAVE HINDERED BIBLICAL EVANGELISM MORE THAN CALVINISM. It almost killed the evangelistic zeal of the Baptist churches of England in the 18th century and well into the 19th. Among Calvinists, evangelism is done IN SPITE OF Calvinism, not because of it. Baptist historian Thomas Armitage wrote: “William Carey’s ‘Inquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use means for the Conversion of the Heathen’ was published in 1792, but found few readers and produced little effect. To most of the Baptists his views were visionary and even wild, in open conflict with God’s sovereignty. At a meeting of ministers, where the senior Ryland presided, Carey proposed that at the next meeting they discuss the duty of attempting to spread the Gospel amongst the heathen. … Ryland, shocked, sprang to his feet and ordered Carey to sit down, saying: ‘When God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid or mine!’”

Things were not much better when Spurgeon took his first pastorate in 1854. This situation is described in Spurgeon vs. the Hyper Calvinists by Iain Murray. Many Calvinists opposed Spurgeon and denounced his broad, indiscriminate invitations for sinners to come to Christ. For example, one Calvinist publication warned in Spurgeon’s day, “...to preach that it is man’s duty to believe savingly in Christ is ABSURD” (Earthen Vessel, 1857).

4. IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT CALVINISM IS AN UNSETTLED THEOLOGY. Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. “The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it” (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century.

Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism! There are Calvin Calvinists and Andrew Fuller Calvinists and Arthur W. Pink Calvinists and Presbyterian Calvinists and Baptist Calvinists and many other sorts of Calvinists. Many Calvinists have never read Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion for themselves. They are merely following someone who follows someone who allegedly follows Calvin (who, by his own admission, followed Augustine).

Calvinists believe that they have the right to reject or modify some parts of or conclusions of Calvin. I agree with them 100%, and I say, further, that we also have the right to reject the entire thing if we are convinced that it is not supported by Scripture!

5. IT IS NOT WISE TO FOLLOW JOHN CALVIN; HE WAS UNSOUND AT THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. Calvin never gave a testimony of the new birth; rather he identified with his Catholic infant baptism. Note the following quotes from his Institutes:

“At whatever time we are baptized, we are washed and purified once for the whole of life” (Institutes, IV).

“By baptism we are ingrafted into the body of Christ ... infants are to be baptized ... children of Christians, as they are immediately on their birth received by God as heirs of the covenant, are also to be admitted to baptism” (Institutes, IV).

Calvin was vicious toward his enemies, acting more like a devouring wolf than a harmless sheep. Historian William Jones observed that “that most hateful feature of popery adhered to Calvin through life, the spirit of persecution.” Note how he described his theological opponents: “...all that filth and villainy...mad dogs who vomit their filth against the majesty of God and want to pervert all religion. Must they be spared?” (Oct. 16, 1555). Calvin hated the Anabaptists, though they were miles closer to the Scriptural pattern for the New Testament church than he was. He called them “henchmen of Satan.” Four men who disagreed with Calvin on who should be admitted to the Lord’s Supper were beheaded, quartered, and their body parts hung in strategic locations in Geneva as a warning to others. He burned Michael Servetus (for rejecting infant baptism and for denying Christ’s deity). Calvin wrote about Servetus, “One should not be content with simply killing such people, but should burn them cruelly.”

6. GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE HIS PEOPLE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN CALVINISM AND ARMINIANISM! I am convinced that John Calvin has caused great and unnecessary divisions among God’s people because of dogmatizing his philosophizing about God’s sovereignty and election. If men were left simply to believe the Bible’s own statements on these matters and if men were not forced to decide between the man-made theologies called “Calvinism” and “Arminianism,” the Christian world would be much better of and many artificial and unnecessary divisions would not have resulted.

The Bible says “prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thess. 5:21). The Bible itself is the test of truth, not some man’s systematic theology. I have the right and responsibility to test every theology by the Bible, and I am free before the Lord to reject any part of it or all of it. I do not have to make a choice between human theologies. I can stand strictly and exclusively upon the Bible itself, the SOLE authority for faith and practice. Many Calvinists won’t allow that, though. James White, author of “The Truth about the King James Bible Controversy” and “The Potter’s Freedom” and several other books, wrote to me in about the year 1999 and challenged me to a public debate. He urged me to “defend Arminianism.” That is a strange notion, because I don’t follow Arminianism and I don’t care anything about Arminianism. I have studied the theology of James Arminius some and I find errors in it just as I have found errors in John Calvin’s theology. Though I do believe that Arminius was closer to the truth than Calvin, this does not mean that I have any intention to “defend Arminianism.” White has the idea that is so typical among Calvinists that if a man is not a Calvinist, he is surely an Arminian.

This idea actually began with Calvin. He treated those who disagreed with his position on election as enemies of God and the gospel and would not admit that men can reject Calvinism and still believe God’s Word! From the time that I was saved by God’s marvelous and free grace 32 years ago until this very day, I have wanted to understand the will of and to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ through God’s preserved Word, the Scriptures. As best as I know how, I have made that my sole authority. I enjoy systematic theology; I have taught a course in Bible doctrine in a new Bible college that helped establish in South Asia and have published a book on Bible Doctrine or Theology, but I test all of the various theologies with the Scriptures alone, and I have never agreed completely with any man’s systematic theology.

I praise God that I am not under any divine obligation to follow either Calvinism or Arminianism.

SOME CENTRAL ERRORS OF CALVINISM

1. CALVINISM TURNS THEOLOGY INTO PHILOSOPHY.

Calvinism goes beyond biblical statements in an attempt to systematize the mysteries of God. John Calvin was a philosopher by training; his Institutes are extremely philosophical. It was first written when Calvin was young and only new converted to Protestantism, when his mind was still filled with the philosophy that he had studied as a Catholic priest.

True theology is simply believing and rightly interpreting the Bible, but God warns against philosophy and about leaving the simplicity of Christ (Col. 2:8; 2 Cor. 11:3).

Philosophy is to use the human intellect and logic in an attempt to come to the truth apart from divine revelation. In the case of Calvinism, the problem is that he goes beyond the actual statements of Scripture and creates doctrine by human reasoning.

For example, Arthur Pink states, “If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire. Admitting the general premise, is not the specific conclusion inevitable?” (p. 84).

The answer is that Pink’s premise is wrong and so, therefore, is the conclusion. To say that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass is to go beyond what the Bible teaches. The Bible says He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Eph. 1:11), but that is not the same as actually foreordaining everything. And to build on this faulty platform by claiming that God must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved is to allow human logic to assume the place of divine revelation.

Again, Pink says, “Now if God had willed their salvation, would He not have vouchsafed them the means of salvation? Would He not have given them all things necessary to that end? But it is an undeniable matter of fact that He did not” (p. 83).

This is all human reasoning. But what saith the Word of God? It says that God did will the salvation of all (1 Tim. 3:5-6; 2 Pet. 3:9) and did provide for it (1 Jn. 2:2), but He also gave man a choice to believe or disbelieve (Jn. 3:16).

Here is another example of the philosophical approach of Calvinism. Pink says, “Now all will acknowledge that from the foundation of the world God certainly fore-knew and fore-saw who would and who would not receive Christ as their Saviour, therefore in giving being and birth to those He knew would reject Christ, He necessarily created them unto damnation” (p. 82).

The authority for this statement is not the plain teaching of Scripture but the author’s human reasoning. Pink confuses foreknowledge with forewilling. A parent gives his children many choices and greater liberty as they grow older and he knows that they will make mistakes and he knows the consequences of those mistakes beforehand, but when the children do wrong that is not to say that the parent forewilled it.

In this context it is important to observe that Calvinism is not simple; it is very complicated. James White often makes the claim that Dave Hunt, who has debated him in print on this subject, doesn’t understand Calvinism, even though he of reasonable intelligence and has studied the issue diligently. This highlights the complexity and philosophical nature of Calvinism. It results in an elitist mentality. Consider some of the terms that James White uses in his debate with Dave Hunt: compatibalism, monergism versus synergism, electing grace vs. irresistible grace, effectual calling vs. general calling, effective atonement vs. hypothetical atonement, libertarian free will vs. the bondage of the will. Other Calvinists speak of objective grace and subjective grace, natural ability and moral ability, mediate vs. immediate imputation of Adam’s sin, supralapsarianism, sublapsarianism, infralapsarianism, desiderative vs. decretive will, and antecedent hypothetical will.

I believe that Calvinism is more akin to philosophy than to sound Bible theology and that it has left the simplicity that is in Christ.

2. THE CALVINIST SYSTEM TRIES TO RECONCILE THINGS THAT CANNOT BE RECONCILED IN THIS WORLD.

Consider Acts 13:48 and Acts 13:46

Verse 48 is a pet Calvinist verse: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

The Calvinist says, “See, here is a plain statement that those who believe are those who are sovereignly ordained to believe.” The problem is that the word “sovereignly” is added to what this verse actually states and Calvinist doctrine is read into the verse to make it say, “...as many as were sovereignly and arbitrarily elected believed.” Any possibility that God’s foreknowledge could allow for the exercise of human will is entirely discounted, but there is nothing in the verse itself to require such an interpretation.

Also, in verse 46 we see a different story. “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Here we see that salvation is associated with man’s response to the gospel. According to the plain teaching of this verse, these Jews did not go to Hell because they were not part of the elect or because they were sovereignly elected to reprobation, but simply because they refused to believe. They reprobated themselves. Paul told them that God wanted to give them everlasting life and they rejected it.

Consider John 6:37 and John 6:40

Again, John 6:37 is a favorite Calvinist proof text. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

The Calvinist finds his doctrines of Sovereign Election and Irresistible Grace here. The problem is that if “irresistible grace” is taught in this passage, it is for all who believe on Christ and not merely for a special few who were sovereignly pre-elected to be saved.

This verse does not say that God has sovereignly pre-chosen only some for salvation and that it is those pre-chosen ones that are given to Christ. One must read all of that into the verse. It simply says that all that the Father gives will come to Christ. The question is this: “Who is it that the Father gives to Jesus?”

That question is answered plainly in this passage only three verses later: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn. 6:40). (Of course the Calvinist argues that it is only the elect who can “see the Son,” but one must read that into the verse.)

In verse 40 we see that the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved. Here the sovereign will of God is to allow men a choice in salvation, and a great many other verses agree.

Consider John 6:44 and John 12:32

John 6:44 is another Calvinist proof text. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The Calvinist finds sovereign election and irresistible grace here.

Yet John 12:32 says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Here we see that Jesus draws all men.

How can these seemingly contradictory things be reconciled? Calvinism doesn’t have the answer, because its proposed solution ignores or twists too many clear Scriptures.

I don’t believe these things can be properly reconciled in this present world. We should simply let them stand and not try to force them into a perfectly formed theological system. God truly elects and man truly chooses. God elects and yet every man is urged to be saved and every man can be saved. God elects and yet sent His Son to die for the whole world. God elects and yet does not want any sinner to perish.

All are equally true and Scriptural, so let them ALL stand and do not try to reconcile that which the Bible itself does not reconcile and which therefore cannot be reconciled into a neat theological package in this present world.

3. CALVINISM’S DOCTRINES ARE CONTRARY TO THE PLAIN TEACHING OF GOD’S WORD.

THE BIBLE VS. THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE THAT FAITH IS A WORK

Calvinism says that grace means man cannot do anything, cannot even believe, because otherwise grace would not be grace and the sinner would have something to boast of.

First of all, this is unscriptural, because the Bible plainly says faith and believing are not works.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

It is not faith that is the gift of God; it is salvation that is the gift. Salvation is by grace but THROUGH faith. Faith is “the hand that reaches out and accepts the gift of God.” Faith is not a work.

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Rom. 4:2-5).

Here we see plainly that faith is the opposite of works. Therefore to require that a sinner believe the gospel is not to require the sinner to do some sort of works for salvation.

Furthermore, this doctrine that faith is a work is unreasonable. Salvation is likened in Scripture to receiving a gift. It can also be likened to accepting a pardon and taking a life preserver. If someone purchases an expensive gift for me and I accept it, do I have anything to boast of? If I am in prison on death row for my crimes and the governor mercifully offers me a pardon and I accept it, have I done anything that I could boast of? If I am drowning in the ocean and a boat pulls alongside and offers to rescue me and I allow them to do that, have I thereby had some part in my salvation from drowning? Have I done something I could boast of? Of course not! When the sinner hears that Christ loves him and died for him and rose from the dead and offers him eternal salvation and the sinner joyfully receives that great salvation, that is not works and the sinner has nothing to boast about.

THE BIBLE VS. THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE THAT THE NEW BIRTH PRECEDES FAITH

Arthur Pink states this doctrine as follows: “Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. ... Faith is a spiritual grace, the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because the unregenerate are spiritually dead--‘dead in trespasses and sins’--then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a dead man cannot believe anything. ‘So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God’ (Rom. 8:8)--but they could if it were possible for the flesh to believe. ... That the work of the Holy Spirit precedes our believing is unequivocally established by 2 Thess. 2:13--‘God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.’ Note that ‘sanctification of the Spirit’ comes before and makes possible ‘belief of the truth’” (p. 73).

The chief passage on the New Birth is John 3. In verse 1-8 Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again or he cannot see the kingdom of God. In verse 9, Nicodemus asks Jesus how this can be. In verse 10-21, Jesus answers this question and explains how a man is born again, and the answer is that he is born again by believing (Jn. 3:14-16)! This is exactly what the Calvinist says the sinner cannot do. How can a dead man believe, he reasons? Well, if we are going to take the “dead man” analogy literally, a dead man can’t sin either. When the Bible says the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins it means that he is separated from God’s divine life because of sin. To take this analogy beyond the actual teaching of the Bible and to give it other meanings, such as to reason that since the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins he must not be able to believe, is to move from truth to heresy.

Ephesians 1:13 also gives the order of salvation. “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.” First the sinner believes and then he receives the Holy Spirit.

The order of salvation is made clear in Acts 16:30-31 in the conversion of the Philippian jailer. “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Note that the jailer was not born again when he asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul replied that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously Paul knew that the man could do exactly that and that by believing he would be born again.

The order of salvation is also made clear in Eph. 2:8-9 -- “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Faith is the means whereby we are saved; it is the hand that reaches out to accept God’s Gift.

What, then, does 2 Thess. 2:13 mean, when it says we are chosen to salvation “through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”? In light of the previous passages, it is obvious that this verse is not stating the exact order of things. We have already learned that belief of the truth precedes the new birth. At the same time, from God’s perspective the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth occur simultaneously. Though we are saved through faith, that faith is exercised in the context of the Spirit of God enlightening and drawing and convicting and finally regenerating and sanctifying. It would therefore be humanly impossible to separate the “belief of the truth” from the “sanctification of the Spirit.”

THE BIBLE VS. THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE OF THE TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN

The Bible teaches that man is morally corrupt (Jer. 17:9; Rom. 3:10-18) and dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) and spiritually blind (1 Cor. 2:14), but it nowhere teaches that man cannot respond to the gospel. When I have challenged Calvinists to provide me with even one verse that says man is dead in trespasses and sins in SUCH A MANNER that he cannot even believe the gospel, they have never provided such a verse. One suggested Ephesians 2, but nowhere does Ephesians 2 teach such a thing. One has to read the Calvinist doctrine of “total depravity” into the Scripture.

The Bible teaches, rather, that God enables men to respond, giving them light (Jn. 1:9), drawing them (Jn. 12:32), convicting them (Jn. 16:8), calling them through the gospel (Mk. 16:15-16; 2 Thess. 2:14), and commanding them to repent (Acts 17:30) and believe on Christ (Acts 16:31).

THE BIBLE VS. THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE OF IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

CONSIDER CAIN. Gen. 4:6-7 -- “And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

God spoke to Cain and urged him not to act on the jealous anger that was burning in his heart, and yet Cain resisted God’s will and murdered his brother. God gave Cain a clear choice. There is not a hint in this passage that would make us conclude that God had predetermined that Cain be reprobate.

CONSIDER THE WORLD BEFORE THE FLOOD. Gen. 6:3 -- “And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

God strove with men before the flood and had Noah preach to them for 120 years while the ark was being built, but they resisted God and rejected his warning.

CONSIDER ISRAEL OF OLD. Rom. 10:21 -- “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

We see that God wanted to save Israel and continually reached out to them, but God’s salvation was resisted and rejected.

CONSIDER ISRAEL OF CHRIST’S DAY. Matt. 23:37 -- “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” John 5:40 “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”

Here we see that the sovereign will of the Son of God, who desired to save Israel throughout her history and who often sent His prophets to her, was refused.

CONSIDER THE UNSAVED OF OUR DAY. 2 Cor. 4:3-4 -- “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Here we see that men are blinded because of their own unbelief and they are lost because they reject the gospel. It is God’s sovereign will to save every sinner (1 Tim. 2:3-4; 2 Pet. 3:9), but sinners can resist Him.

CONSIDER THE UNSAVED DURING THE REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST. 2 Thess. 2:10-12 -- “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Why will these sinners perish? The reason is stated plainly, and it is not because they are not among the elect and is not because they were sovereignly reprobated. It is because they resist the gospel and reject the truth.

THE BIBLE VS. THE CALVINIST DOCTRINE OF LIMITED ATONEMENT

God loves all men (Jn. 3:16).
God has commanded that the gospel be preached to every person (Mark 16:15).
God wants to have mercy upon all men (Rom. 11:32).
God desires to reconcile all men to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19).
The promise of faith by Jesus is for all (Gal. 3:22).
Jesus was a ransom for all men (1 Tim. 2:6).
Jesus tasted death for all men (Heb. 2:9).
Jesus bought even unsaved false teachers (2 Pet. 2:1).
God desires all men to be saved (2 Pet. 3:9).
Jesus provided propitiation for all men (1 Jn. 2:2).
The iniquity of all men was laid on Jesus (Isaiah 53:6).

The Calvinist’s doctrine of limited atonement is contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture.

4. CALVINISM INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE BY THEOLOGY RATHER THAN BY CONTEXT.

Its doctrines are not supported by the plain language of Scripture but are read into the Scripture. In Bible interpretation, the principle rule is to interpret according to the plain language of the text and according to the context.

Calvinism assigns preset definitions to theological terms instead of allowing the context to define them.

God’s omnipotence means God’s will cannot be resisted by man.

Election means man has no choice.

Total depravity means man is unable to respond to God and cannot even believe.

Let’s consider the doctrine of Total Depravity more carefully. According to this doctrine man so dead in trespasses and sins in such a sense that he cannot even believe on Christ for salvation, that he cannot make any choice in regard to salvation. I have challenged Calvinists to give me even one Scripture that teaches this, and I have examined books by Calvinists for such a proof text, but in vain. The Scriptures they quote do not teach their doctrine. They cite, for example, Eph. 1:1-4, but that passage says nothing about the sinner not being able to believe. It says the sinner is dead in trespasses and sin, walks according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, is a child of disobedience, and is by nature the child of wrath. But that is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity which goes beyond the actual words of Scripture and adds the business about the sinner not being able to believe. They also cite Gen. 6:5 and Jer. 17:9 and Isa. 64:6-7 and Rom. 3:10-18, but again there is nothing in these verses about the Calvinist doctrine that the sinner is unable to believe, that he cannot exercise his will in receiving or rejecting salvation. After citing the previously mentioned Scriptures, Jeffrey Khoo of the Far Eastern Bible College concludes: “Man’s freedom of choice has been forfeited since the Fall. ... The Bible teaches human inability and total depravity” (Arminianism Examined, p. 4). Yes, the Bible definitely teaches that man is totally depraved in the since that the sinner is corrupt and there is nothing good in him that would warrant or that could earn salvation, but the Calvinism goes beyond this and adds its own unique twist that is not supported by Scripture.

Consider the doctrine of Limited Atonement, that Christ died only to save the elect and that He did not die for the non-elect. “He died in order to procure and secure the salvation of the elect only. ... the atonement is limited or particular in its design and intention.” Khoo quotes Augustine, who said that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all, efficient for the elect.” In other words, though Christ somehow made it possible for all sinners to be saved in this age, only the elect can actually be saved, because only they are effectively drawn and regenerated. There is not one Scripture to support this doctrine. Khoo quotes Matt. 1:21, which says Jesus will “save His people from their sins,” but this does not say that Jesus died for the elect only. “His people” here refers to the Jews, and we know that Jesus did not die only for the Jews. The Calvinist quotes Eph. 5:25, that Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, but this does not say that Christ died only for the elect. That Christ gave Himself for the church is not to say that Christ gave Himself ONLY for the church or any other such Calvinistic twist. The Calvinist quotes John 6:38-39, where Christ said, “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” Again, this does not support the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement. In fact, it says nothing whatsoever about the extent of the atonement.

The Calvinist must support his doctrine, every point of it, from the Scripture alone interpreted properly by the plain meaning of the words and by context. This he cannot do. If he is not allowed to read his doctrine into the Scripture, he is not able to support his doctrine from Scripture.

5. CALVINISM MISSTATES WHAT NON-CALVINISTS BELIEVE.

There are many strawman arguments that the Calvinist erects and defeats, but by defeating them he has only defeated a figment of his own imagination.

Calvinists claim, for example, that the non-Calvinist doesn’t believe in God’s sovereignty. I can’t speak for others, but this non-Calvinist certain believes in God’s sovereignty. God is God and He can do whatsoever He pleases whensoever He pleases. As one man said, “Whatever the Bible says, I believe; the Bible says the whale swallowed Jonah, and I believe it; and if the Bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe that.” If the Bible taught that God sovereignly selects some sinners to go to heaven and sovereignly elects the rest to go to hell or that He chooses only some to be saved and allows the rest to be destroyed, I would believe it, because I believe God is God and man cannot tell God what is right or wrong. But the Bible reveals, rather, that the sovereign God made man with a will and that the sinner can still exercise that will in receiving or rejecting Christ. This does not detract from God’s sovereignty one iota.

They claim, further, that the non-Calvinist believes man is saved by his own will. I can’t speak for others, but this non-Calvinist does not believe that. No sinner can believe unless God enables him to do so. The Bible plainly states that Jesus enlightens (Jn. 1:9) and draws (Jn. 12:37) every man. Man is not saved by his will; he is saved by the grace of God in Christ and because of the blood of Christ. Jn. 1:12-13 leaves no doubt about this. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” Verse 12 says as many as receive Jesus and believe on His name are born again, but verse 13 says this salvation by faith is not “the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” Thus, believing on Christ is not some sort of “will salvation.”

They claim that the non-Calvinist doesn’t believe that salvation is 100% of God, that by saying that the sinner can believe on Christ is to say that “he contributes to his salvation” and “thus, the work of salvation is not totally God’s” (Jeffrey Khoo, Arminianism Examined, Far Eastern Bible College, Singapore, p. 2). Arthur Pink says that if the sinner could yield to or resist Christ, “then the Christian would have ground for boasting and self-glorying over his co-operation with the Spirit...” (p. 128). Again, while I can’t speak for others, this non-Calvinist most definitely believes that salvation is 100% of God. It is God who enlightens (Jn. 1:9), convicts (Jn. 16:7-8), draws (Jn. 12:32), and saves. Man does nothing but receive a Gift and that is not a work and is not something to boast of! As with salvation, so with Christian living, it is all of God and man has nothing to boast of. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13); and, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20). Salvation is all of Christ, from beginning to end. This idea that receiving a gift leaves the recipient in a position to boast is ridiculous. The recipient of a Priceless Gift does not boast of himself but of the Giver. The man who is rescued from the sea and escapes certain death does not brag about what he did for himself but about what the rescuer did, even though the drowning man perhaps took hold of a life preserver that was thrown to him or relaxed in the arms of the life guard.

They say that the teaching that man can believe on or reject Christ means that one believes that the sinner is not truly depraved and that man is a “free moral agent.” Arthur Pink says this in his chapter on “God’s Sovereignty and the Human Will.” He presents many strawmen in this section. He says, “Does it lie within the province of man’s will to accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour? ... The answer to this question defines our conception of human depravity. ... Man is a rational being and as such responsible and accountable to God, but to affirm that he is a free moral agent is to deny that he is totally depraved...” (p. 138). I certainly don’t believe that the sinner is a “free moral agent,” and I believe that man is totally without righteousness before God, dead in trespasses and sins, etc. I simply agree with what the Bible says about man believing the gospel. The Bible says that “whosoever believeth in him shall not perish” (Jn. 3:16). That teaches me that a sinner can believe on Christ, but to go beyond this simple concept and to claim that such a position is to deny human depravity or is to make him into a “free moral agent” is nonsense. Romans 3:10-18 and Eph. 2:1-4 are key New Testament passages on the depravity of the sinner, but neither passage mentions man’s will or whether he can or cannot believe on Christ for salvation. The same is true for every passage in the Bible that deals with man’s depravity in Adam, such as Gen. 6:4; Psa. 51:5; 58:3; Prov. 22:15; Ecc. 9:3; Isa. 64:6; Jer. 17:9; and Mat. 15:9. Again, the Calvinist reads his own theology into these passages.

Pink and other Calvinists even liken the non-Calvinist’s position on so-called “free will” to that of the Roman Catholic Church. Pink quotes from the Council of Trent, which said, “If any one shall affirm, that man’s free-will, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, co-operate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases; but that it is unactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed.” Pink then concludes: “Thus, those who today insist on the free-will of the natural man believe precisely what Rome teaches on the subject! ... the Roman Catholics and Arminians walk hand in hand...” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 139). This is libelous in the extreme. The Roman Catholic Church believes that man is not utterly unrighteous in his fallen state and that he can actually cooperate with God in his justification, that salvation is by faith plus works and sacraments rather than by faith alone. The non-Calvinist does not believe anything like this. He simply believes the Scripture when it says that “whosoever believeth in him shall not perish” (Jn. 3:16) and he doesn’t try to bend such Scriptures to conform to the TULIP mold.

There are only a few examples of how the Calvinist tends to misstate and misrepresent what the non-Calvinist believes.

6. CALVINISM CONFUSES THE CHURCH WITH ISRAEL AND NATIONAL ELECTION WITH PERSONAL (Rom. 9:9-24).

John Calvin’s major argument for unconditional election and reprobation is based on God’s dealings with Israel. This is described in Calvin’s Institutes, Book III, Chapter 21, “Eternal Election.”

Romans 9:9-24
9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This is doubtless the Calvinist’s favorite proof text for sovereign election. Does Romans 9 teach that God arbitrarily or sovereignly chooses some sinners to be saved and the rest to be lost? Let’s consider eight important facts about this passage:

(1) The example of Esau and Jacob does not refer to election pertaining to personal salvation but to election pertaining to nations in God’s overall program. Verse 12 makes this clear. “It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” The promise of God to Rebecca was about the elder son serving the younger, not about their personal salvation. Esau could have gotten saved. He could have believed in God and been in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. This passage does not teach that Esau was sovereignly predestined to be reprobate. It teaches that God sovereignly chose Christ’s lineage.

(2) As for Pharaoh, it is important to understand that he first hardened his own heart. “But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said” (Ex. 8:15). This is not a case of “sovereign reprobation.” The Scripture teaches that it is always God’s will for men to serve Him, but when they reject Him He rejects them and judges them and makes examples of them. Compare 2 Thess. 2:10-12 -- “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” These sinners will be damned but not because they are not sovereignly elected and not because they are sovereignly reprobate but because of their personal decision in regard to the truth. Words could not be plainer. God did make an example of Pharaoh, but to go beyond what the Bible says and to claim that God chose to create Pharaoh for the purpose of reprobating him is a great error and is to malign the name of the loving God.

(3) Rom. 9:22-23 does not say that God sovereignly fits some sinners to destruction and some to glory. The phrase “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” allows for a variant voice; according to the PC Study Bible, it can be both the passive and middle voice in Greek; middle means to fit oneself. In the middle voice the subject acts in relation to him/herself. Consider this note from Vincent Word Studies: “NOT FITTED BY GOD FOR DESTRUCTION, but in an adjectival sense, ready, ripe for destruction, the participle denoting a present state previously formed, BUT GIVING NO HINT OF HOW IT HAD BEEN FORMED. That the objects of final wrath had themselves a hand in the matter may be seen from 1 Thess. 2:15-16.” By allowing the Bible to speak for itself through the plain meaning of the words and by comparing Scripture with Scripture we see that the sinner fits himself for destruction by his rejection of the truth. Even those who have never heard the gospel, have the light of creation and conscience and are responsible to respond to the light that they have that they might be given more light (Acts 17:26-27).

(4) Rom. 9:23-24 does not mean that God calls only a certain pre-chosen elect group to salvation. “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.” One has to read that into the language of the verses. The Calvinist claims that verse 24 refers to “effectual calling,” which is a term that describes the “irresistible calling of the elect,” but this is adding to God’s Word, which is a great error. The Bible plainly states that God has called all who will come to Christ. God calls through the gospel (2 Thess. 2:14) and the gospel is to be preached to every creature (Mk. 16:15). God calls “whosoever will” (Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17). God calls every one that believes on Christ. “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn. 6:40).

(5) God’s salvation even of the Jews was not a matter of “sovereign” election but was based on an individual’s faith in His Word. “But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed” (Rom. 9:31-33).

(6) Romans 10 leaves no doubt about this; the promise of salvation proves that it is not God’s arbitrary or “sovereign” choice (Rom. 10:8-13). Note the words “whosoever” and “all.” Would God mock sinners by promising them salvation if they believe in Christ and then only enable those who were sovereignly elected to actually exercise such faith?

(7) God’s sovereignty does not mean that His will is always accomplished in man. “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people” (Rom. 10:21). See also Matt. 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” God has made man in His image. Man is not a robot. He can exercise his will in saying no to God, and man has said no to God and has resisted God from Genesis to Revelation. If God’s sovereignty means that His will is always done, this world would make no sense! It is God’s will, for example, for every believer to “Be ye holy; for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:16), but we know all too well that this is not always the case and is never the case perfectly.

(8) God’s blinding of Israel was not a matter of sovereign election but it was because they first hardened their own hearts. Consider Ezek. 12:2; Mat. 13:15 and Acts 28:25-27:

Ezekiel 12:2 -- “Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.”

Ezekiel says the cause for Israel’s blindness is her own rebellion.

Matthew 13:15 -- “For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew says Israel closed her own eyes and that is the reason they were not converted. There is no sovereign reprobation here.

Acts 28:25-27 -- “And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and THEIR EYES HAVE THEY CLOSED; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Again, Acts says Israel closed her own eyes lest she be converted. There is no support for the Calvinist doctrine of sovereign reprobation here.

7. CALVINISM GOES BACK TO THE “CHURCH FATHERS” FOR AUTHORITY INSTEAD OF STRICTLY TO THE NEW TESTAMENT APOSTLES AND PROPHETS.

Calvin freely acknowledged that his authority was Augustine. Consider the following quotes:

“If I were inclined to compile a whole volume from Augustine, I could easily show my readers, that I need no words but his” (Institutes, Book III, chap. 22)

“Let Augustine answer for me…” (Ibid.)

“[Augustine is the one] we quote most frequently as being the best and most faithful witness of all antiquity” (Institutes, Book IV, chap. 14)

“Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so ... out of his writings” (Calvin, “A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God,” trans. by Henry Cole, Calvin’s Calvinism, Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing, 1987, p. 38; cited in Laurence Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, 1999, p. 38).

WHO WAS AUGUSTINE? He was so polluted with heresy that the Roman Catholic Church has claimed him as one of its “doctors.”

Augustine was a persecutor and the father of the doctrine of persecution in the Catholic Church. The historian Neander observed that Augustine’s teaching “contains the germ of the whole system of spiritual despotism, intolerance, and persecution, even to the court of the Inquisition.” He instigated bitter persecutions against the Bible-believing Donatists who were striving to maintain pure churches after the apostolic faith.

Augustine was the father of a-millennialism, interpreting Bible prophecy allegorically; teaching that the Catholic Church is the kingdom of God.

Augustine taught that Mary did not commit sin.

Augustine believed in purgatory.

Augustine was one of the fathers of the heresy of infant baptism, claiming that unbaptized infants were lost, and calling all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.”

Augustine exalted church tradition above the Bible and said, “I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church.”

8. CALVINISM CANNOT EXPLAIN CHRIST’S WARNINGS AND HIS JUDGMENTS.

Repeatedly, Christ warned sinners that except they repent and believe on Him they would perish (e.g., Lk. 13:3, 5; Jn. 8:24). Christ also issued judgments upon sinners because they did not believe.

Luke 10:12-16 -- “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.”

In light of Calvinism’s definition of sovereign election and the irresistible drawing and regeneration of the elect, Christ’s warnings and judgments make no sense. Why would He warn sinners to repent and believe or perish and pronounce severe judgment upon sinners for not believing if He knows that only those who are sovereignly elected can do such a thing?

Calvinists have made pathetic attempts to answer this, but in my estimation the fact of Christ’s warnings simply and plainly refutes their doctrine.

9. CALVINISM CANNOT EXPLAIN THE APOSTLE PAUL.

Paul attempted to win the more. “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more” (1 Cor. 9:19). How can I win more if the number of the elect has been settled from eternity?

Paul’s goal was to “save some.” “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some: (1 Cor. 9:22). Isn’t the election of the saved already assured without Paul’s help? How could anything he did in his life and ministry have any affect upon the elect?

Paul sacrificed so that men would be saved. “Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved” (1 Cor. 10:33). If election is sovereignly predetermined and irresistible, Paul’s statement makes no sense.

Paul persuaded men. “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences” (2 Cor. 5:11). If Paul were a Calvinist, he would know that the elect don’t need persuading and the non-elect can’t be persuaded!

Paul was willing to go to hell for the unsaved Jews. “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:3). How could a mere man care more about the destiny of the unsaved than God? We are convinced that the cry of Paul’s heart here is merely a mirror of the cry of God’s own heart for all lost sinners.

[b]SEE PART II[/b]

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sermonindex

[i][color=CC0000]OK thrill seekers... here is Part II! Enjoy

Krispy[/color][/i]

[b]The Calvinism Debate - Part II[/b]
by David Cloud

10. CALVINISM CANNOT EXPLAIN THE BOOK OF HEBREWS.

The book of Hebrews refutes the Calvinist or TULIP doctrines of unconditional and “sovereign” election and irresistible grace, that God sovereignly and arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and irresistibly and absolutely draws them so that on one hand it is impossible for the non-elect to be saved and on the other hand it is impossible for the elect not to be saved. If this were true, the Holy Spirit would not give such dire warnings and exhortations to professing believers about the possibility of apostasy, because if they are elected they could not possibly perish and if they are not elected, nothing they could do would change their status. Consider, for example, the following passages:

Consider Hebrews 2:3: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.”

This exhortation makes no sense in light of Calvinist doctrines. If election is as the Calvinist teaches, how could the elect neglect salvation and how could the non-elect do anything other than neglect salvation?

Consider Hebrews 3:12-14: “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.”

If the elect are predetermined “sovereignly” and if election has nothing whatsoever to do with the sinner himself and if he is irresistibly drawn, what could this exhortation possibly mean? How could a sovereignly elected, irresistibly drawn believer depart from God, and how could the non-elect do anything other than depart from God?

Consider Hebrews 4:9-11: “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

How could this exhortation possibly apply to TULIP type election? This passages says the rest of salvation is something that every person must seek to enter into and all are urged to do so, but the doctrine of “sovereign” election teaches us that those elected to God’s rest are predetermined solely by God and they have no choice in the matter and will assuredly enter into that rest.

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

If TULIP theology is true, why the exhortation? How could the elect fall away? And how could the non-elect do anything but fall away?

Consider Hebrews 10:26-29: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Again, if TULIP theology is true, why would such an exhortation be given to professing believers? If they are sovereignly elected, they will surely persevere and if they aren’t they surely won’t. According to Calvinist doctrine, it has nothing to do with them or what they do.

If election is “sovereign” and “unconditional” in a Calvinist sense and the believer has no choice whatsoever in the matter of salvation, these passages don’t make any sense.

If, on the other hand, election involves an element of foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and involves a personal choice on the part of the sinner (“whosoever believeth,” Jn. 3:15, 16; 12:46; Acts 10:43; Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 John 5:1; Rev. 22:17; etc.), the exhortations and warnings in Hebrews make perfect sense. Because if this is true, and we know that it is because the Bible everywhere teaches it, then the sinner, being given light from Christ (Jn. 1:9) and being drawn by Christ (Jn. 12:32) and being convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:8) can, because of this gracious divine enablement, either believe on Christ or not and it is also possible for a sinner to come close to salvation without actually possessing it. Therefore he needs to be exhorted to believe on Jesus Christ truly and sincerely and not to turn away before he has been genuinely born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and adopted into God’s family.

11. CALVINISM CANNOT EXPLAIN PRAYER.

Arthur Pink says, “God’s will is immutable, and cannot be altered by our cryings” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 173).

In fact, God’s will can be altered by our prayers.

Prayer can never demand that God do something. Prayer is not demanding but asking. Prayer must always be “by the will of God” (Rom. 1:10). ‘If we ask anything according to his will he heareth us” (1 Jn. 5:14). But that is not to say that prayer is merely a robotic response to that which God has eternally predetermined. God has given man the responsibility to pray and has pledged Himself to answer, as long as the prayer is in accordance with His will. That means that it is up to man whether to pray or not to pray, how much to prayer, and how earnestly. And those prayers change things in things world!

Prayer can even change God’s mind. Consider the following amazing scene that occurred on Mt. Sinai:

“And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: NOW THEREFORE LET ME ALONE, THAT MY WRATH MAY WAX HOT AGAINST THEM, AND THAT I MAY CONSUME THEM: AND I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. AND THE LORD REPENTED OF THE EVIL WHICH HE THOUGHT TO DO UNTO HIS PEOPLE” (Ex. 32:9-14).

God told Moses that He would consume Israel and make a great nation of Moses, but Moses pleaded with Him and the Bible says that God repented. Where does this fit into Calvinism’s emphasis upon God’s absolute sovereignty? Here we see God interacting with man and His mind literally being changed by man’s pleas.

Someone will ask at this point about Numbers 23:19, which says, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

There is no contradiction between Num. 23:19 and Ex. 32:14. In Numbers 23 Balaam is speaking about God’s eternal plan for Israel, and in that He will not repent. “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom. 11:29). But within the context of God’s overall plan for the ages, He does repent or change His mind in relation to man’s actions in many ways, and that is the mystery of prayer.

What about 1 Sam. 15:29, which says, “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent”? This statement was made by Samuel after God had rejected Saul and chosen David as the new king. Saul was pleading with Samuel to change his mind about that decision, and Samuel replied that God’s decisions in such matters are unchangeable.

There are times in which God’s mind can be changed and there are times when it cannot. At one point, God told two of the prophets not to pray for Israel (Jer. 7:16; Ezek. 14:4), but that was after Israel had gone too far in rebellion and God had determined to judge them. After other times, prayer, such as that of Moses in Exodus 32, drove back God’s wrath and gave Israel more time.

Neither Num. 23:19 nor 1 Sam. 15:29 change the fact that God repented of His plan to destroy Israel in Exodus 32 in response to Moses’ earnest intercession.

The fact is that man is an amazing creation. He is made in God’s image, and he is not a robot or a puppet. God is still God, but God has ordained that man has a will and can say yes or no to Him. Men can even change God’s mind through earnest entreaties! That is the wondrous power of prayer.

Consider another prayer scene in Scripture. In Isaiah 38 we read that King Hezekiah was sick unto death and God told the prophet Isaiah to go to him and say, “Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not life” (Isa. 38:1). Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and wept and “prayed unto the Lord.” The Bible says that after this, God sent Isaiah back to the king to say, “Thus said the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years” (Isa. 38:5).

In response to earnest prayer God gave him this man 15 more years of life on earth. Prayer changes things!

“What takes the greater power (omnipotence): to create beings who have no ability to choose--who are mere pawns on God’s cosmic chessboard--or to create beings who have the freedom to accept or reject God’s salvation? I submit, the latter. ... Would a God who ordained the existence of immortal beings without making any provision for them to escape eternal torment be a cruel being? What kind of God would call on mankind to ‘believe and be saved’ when He knows they cannot [and] what kind of relationship is there between God and people who could never choose Him--but are ‘irresistibly’ called...? For these and other reasons I question the idea that individual unconditional election and five-point Calvinism best reflect the attributes of God. A God who sovereignly offers salvation to all through His elect Saviour reflects both power and love.” (Philip F. Cogdon, “Soteriological Implications of Five-Point Calvinism,” Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1995; cited from Dave Hunt, A Calvinist’s Honest Doubts Resolved, p. 76).

WHAT ABOUT HYPER-CALVINISM?

Hyper-Calvinism is a label that some Calvinists have put upon other Calvinists. For example, in “Hyper-Calvinism Examined” Jeffrey Khoo, who is a Presbyterian Calvinist and a staunch defender of the faith and of the Greek Received Text and the King James Bible and a man that I have a high regard for, analyzes a position that he labels “hyper.” He says:

“Calvinism is that system of doctrine derived from the great French theologian--John Calvin. ... What then is Hyper-Calvinism? The prefix ‘hyper’ (Gk: hyper) means ‘above’ or ‘beyond.’ Hyper-Calvinism is a twisted form of Calvinism that goes beyond what Calvin in accordance to Scriptures had taught.”

Dr. Khoo presents two characteristics of Hyper-Calvinism: “(1) denial of common grace, and (2) denial of the free offer of the gospel.”

Common Grace vs. Saving Grace, Degrees of Love

Khoo claims that Calvin taught that there is both a common grace and a saving grace, and that failure to distinguish between the two is a mark of Hyper-Calvinism. Saving grace is “the Holy Spirit’s regenerative work on the sinner through the Gospel,” whereas common grace is “God’s favourable bestowal upon all of mankind of those things necessary for creaturely existence on this sin-plagued earth.”

Khoo says that Hyper-Calvinists reject the doctrine of common grace and that according to them, God hates all non-elect and works all things towards their destruction, whereas John Calvin taught that God does not hate the non-elect and that this is evident because He bestows upon them “common grace.”

Calvin taught that not only does God bestow common grace upon the reprobate, He also loves them to some degree. Expositing on Mark 10:21, which says Jesus loved the rich young ruler, Calvin said: “... God loves all His creatures without exception. It is therefore important to distinguish degrees of love. ... sometimes God is said to love those whom He neither approves nor justifies.”

What do we say about this? If I were the non-elect, I would wonder what kind of grace God has given me and what kind of love God has bestowed upon me, seeing that it is impossible for me to be saved and escape hell! “Common grace” and a degree of love might sound pleasant to ear of the Calvinist theologian, but it won’t get the “reprobate” into heaven.

The Free Offer of the Gospel

Khoo says that the second mark of Hyper-Calvinism is to reject the doctrine that the gospel should be preached to all men indiscriminately and that God sincerely invites everyone, elect and reprobate, to repentance and salvation in Christ; whereas Calvin Calvinists believe these things.

Khoo quotes John Calvin’s comments on John 3:16 and similar passages to prove that he believed that God “invites indiscriminately all to share in life” and “shows He is favourable to the whole world when He calls all without exception to the faith of Christ” and “no man is excluded from calling upon God” and “the gate of salvation is set open to all.”

When reading these quotes, one thinks for a moment that perhaps Calvin truly believed that all men can be saved through the gospel, but this is not at all what he means! While saying that the gospel is universally offered out of one side of his mouth, Calvin rendered the universal aspect of the gospel meaningless in any practical sense with his doctrine of sovereign election, because they are the only ones who are drawn effectively and regenerated and given the “gift of faith.”

Calvin went on to say: “God does not work effectually in all men, but only when the Spirit shines in our hearts as the inward teacher. ... The Gospel is indeed offered to all for their salvation, its power is not universally manifest.” Commenting on 2 Peter 3:9, Calvin asks the following important question: “If could be asked here, if God does not want any to perish, why do so many in fact perish?” The non-Calvinist Bible believer would reply that so many perish because God has decreed that man not be a robot but that he be given a choice in the matter of the gospel. But John Calvin must fall back upon his doctrine of sovereign election: “My reply is that no mention is made here of the secret decree of God by which the wicked are doomed to their own ruin ... GOD STRETCHES OUT HIS HAND TO ALL ALIKE, BUT HE ONLY GRASPS THOSE (IN SUCH A WAY AS TO LEAD TO HIMSELF) WHOM HE HAS CHOSEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.”

Desiderative vs. Decretive Will

According to Khoo, the Hyper-Calvinist’s problem in not being able to “see how God can be willing to save all when He has already willed that only the elect would be saved” is solved by the simple solution of understanding that God has both a “decretive” and a “desiderative” (from “desire”) will.

God’s decretive will is His sovereign election of some sinners to eternal salvation, whereas His desiderative will is His general concern for all sinners. According to the decretive vs. desiderative idea, salvation is offered to all mankind but given only to the elect. In the words of Augustine, Christ’s death was “sufficient for all, efficient for the elect.”

My friend, if you think this is some sort of “mumbo jumbo” or “gobbly gook,” you are not alone!

The Hyper-Calvinist would open shop and offer the Gift of Salvation only to the elect, while the “Calvin Calvinist” would open shop and offer the Gift of Salvation to whosoever will but only give it to the elect!

Do you see any significant difference between these two views?

It appears to me that Calvin believed that God plays a cruel joke upon the non-elect or “the reprobate,” as he calls them. He “sincerely” invites “whosoever will” to come and to believe on Christ and to be saved, but He knows that only the elect can do any of that. Thus, the non-elect can do nothing in regard to the “universal offer of salvation
but to confirm his unbelief and his reprobate condition.

In my estimation, Hyper-Calvinism vs. Calvin Calvinism is more of a semantics game than anything else. The “Calvin Calvinist” wants to think that he believes what 1 Timothy 2 and 2 Peter 3 says about God willing that all men be saved, but when his position is analyzed carefully, he believes no such thing in any practical sense. The elect are still sovereignly elect, the only sinners who can be saved, and the reprobate are still sovereignly reprobate, unable to be saved and eternally locked out of heaven. Actually the Hyper-Calvinist is more consistent with the Five Points of Calvinism and with the Calvinist position on divine sovereignty in teaching that God does not truly love the non-elect and that He has no interest in their salvation.

The “Calvin Calvinist” is no more faithful to the Scripture than the Hyper-Calvinist. Both twist the Scripture to fit their theology and read their theology into the plain words of Scripture.

I DO NOT TREAT ALL CALVINISTS THE SAME

It is important to understand that there is a great variety of doctrine and practice among Calvinists, and by no means do I consider a man to be an enemy of the truth just because he accepts some of the Calvinist theology. The book Spurgeon vs. Hyper Calvinists: The Battle for Gospel Preaching by Iain Murray (Edinburgh, Banner of Truth Trust, 1995) does an excellent job of describing some of the differences among Calvinists. There are soul winning Calvinists, Calvinists with great evangelistic and missionary zeal; and there are Calvinists who condemn these things. Some interpret Calvinism in such a way that they do not believe in offering salvation to or preaching the gospel to all sinners; they do not even believe that God loves all men. According to Murray’s definition, these are “hyper Calvinists.”

Charles Spurgeon refused to try to reconcile every seeming contradiction in the Bible, and he was wise enough to know that he could not understand every mystery of God. He said:

“That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring” (C.H. Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 4, 1858, p. 337).

Spurgeon warned about creating theologies that attempt to reconcile every biblical difficulty:

“Men who are morbidly anxious to possess a self-consistent creed, a creed which will put together and form a square like a Chinese puzzle,--are very apt to narrow their souls. Those who will only believe what they can reconcile will necessarily disbelieve much of divine revelation. Those who receive by faith anything which they find in the Bible will receive two things, twenty things, ay, or twenty thousand things, though they cannot construct a theory which harmonises them all” (C.H. Spurgeon, “Faith,” Sword and Trowel, 1872).

In these matters, Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist but he was much more than a Calvinist; he was a Biblicist. It has been said of Spurgeon, that if you pricked him, even his blood was “bibline.” He loved theology and studied theology earnestly, but the bottom line was that he had childlike faith in everything the Bible says.

And while Spurgeon was a Calvinist, he was at the same time a great evangelist and believed in offering the gospel to all men and urging all men to be saved. Spurgeon believed that more sinners could be saved if the gospel was preached to them, and he did not try to reconcile such a view with God’s election. He believed his responsibility was to preach the gospel to as many sinners as possible. He believed that tools such as prayer could result in a greater harvest of souls. He had prayer meetings before the preaching services and every Monday night and on other occasions. Sometimes when the auditorium of the Metropolitan Tabernacle was full, a group would remain in the downstairs prayer hall and pray during the preaching (as per an e-mail from Mrs. Hannah Wyncoll, Administrative Assistant, Metropolitan Tabernacle, June 2, 2000). Spurgeon loved soul winning and taught his people to be soul winners. His famous book The Soul Winner is still in print. There were some in Spurgeon’s church who “made it their special work to ‘watch for souls’ in our great congregation, and to seek to bring to immediate decision those who appeared to be impressed under the preaching of the Word. [Bro. Cloud: Note the word ‘decision’ in Spurgeon’s description of this soul winner!] One brother has earned for himself the title of my hunting dog, for he is always ready to pick up the wounded birds. One Monday night, at the prayer-meeting, he was sitting near me on the platform; all at once I missed him, and presently I saw him right at the other end of the building. After the meeting, I asked why he went off so suddenly, and he said that the gas just shone on the face of a woman in the congregation, and she looked so sad that he walked round, and sat near her, in readiness to speak to her about the Saviour after the service” (C.H. Spurgeon, The Full Harvest, p. 76). Thus we see that Charles Spurgeon was a man who was very zealous for the winning of souls, and his Calvinism and his convictions about the sovereignty of God in no wise hindered that.

On the other hand, many Calvinists of that day opposed Spurgeon vehemently from their pulpits and in their magazines and denounced his practice of giving invitations for sinners to come to Christ. (He did not have the people actually come forward during the church service as is commonly practiced today, but he invited them to come to Christ all the same; and he believed that a sinner was saved in every seat in the Metropolitan Tabernacle’s massive auditorium of that day.)

For example, one popular Calvinist paper of Spurgeon’s day was the Earthen Vessel. In one of its issues in 1857, it boldly stated that “to preach that it is man’s duty to believe savingly in Christ is ABSURD.” Well, that was exactly what Spurgeon preached, so to a great many Calvinists of his day, Spurgeon was an absurd fellow!

This reminds us that there are different kinds of Calvinists and it is not wise to lump them all into the same mold.

I have had the privilege of knowing, and communicating at a distance with, many godly soul winning Calvinists. Though I am in strong disagreement with such men on the subject of Calvinist theology, I do not consider them enemies.

At the same time, I believe that our differences in theology are great enough to disallow us to minister together or to be members together of the same church.

BEWARE OF ANOTHER DANGER: QUICK PRAYERISM

A danger that is at least as damaging to evangelism as Calvinism is the “Easy Believism” or “Quick Prayerism” that is so prevalent among fundamental Baptists and many other groups. I prefer to call it “Quick Prayerism” rather than “Easy Believism” because the fact is that salvation is by believing (John 3:16) and it is not difficult. Those who practice Quick Prayerism are characterized as follows:

(1) They are quick to “lead people to Christ” even when the gospel presentation has been shallow and insufficient. Consider the following statement on “What is Salvation?” from Saddleback Church pastored by Rick Warren of Purpose Driven Church fame: “Our disobedient nature has eternally separated us from our Creator. No matter how hard we try, we can never earn our way back into God’s presence. Our only hope is to trust Jesus as God’s provision for our disobedience.” This statement is so shallow and insufficient that it is difficult to know where to begin, but briefly, salvation is much more than a vague, undefined decision “to trust Jesus as God’s provision for our disobedience.” There is no mention of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, even though this is how Paul defined the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. There is no mention of the blood. No mention of repentance. The Saddleback paraphrase of the gospel is no gospel at all, and to lead a person in a sinner’s prayer when this is all of the “gospel” they understand is a crime and a disgrace to the cause of Christ. The shallowness of this type of evangelism is why I could sit next to a church member at Saddleback last year and have him tell me that he has always been a Christian. This was in response to my question, “When were you born again?”

(2) They are quick to lead people in a prayer even when there is no evidence of conviction or regeneration, in contrast to the Apostle Paul who, like John the Baptist, required evidence of repentance. “But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance” (Acts 26:20).

(3) They are quick to ignore repentance or redefine repentance to have nothing to do with sin or a change of life. The typical soul-winning plan doesn’t even hint at repentance, that there is going to be a change of direction, a submission to God.

Many have rejected traditional definitions of repentance as “a change of mind that results in a change of life” and have re-defined repentance, instead, as merely “a change from unbelief to belief.” If a large percentage of their “converts” show no sign of a change of life, it does not greatly concern them, because they do not believe that repentance always results in a change of life.

(4) They are quick to give people assurance even if there is no evidence of salvation. Biblical security is only for those who are genuinely born again and those who are such will give clear evidence of it (2 Cor. 5:17). To give assurance to someone, especially a complete stranger, merely because he has prayed a sinner’s prayer or has walked down an aisle and professed Christ to a church worker is very dangerous, because it tends to give false hope to large numbers of unregenerate people.

(5) They are quick to count numbers regardless of how empty. Those who practice Quick Prayerism typically report large numbers of “salvations” even though a significant percentage of their professions give no evidence of salvation. In my experience, it is not uncommon that 90% of the professions produced under such ministries are fruitless. It is dishonest to give such reports. It is one thing to say that “20 men prayed to receive Christ in the prison last night” or “500 people prayed the sinner’s prayer through the ministry of our church last year.” It is quite another thing to say “20 men got saved in the prison last night” or “500 people got saved through the ministry of our church last year.” This is especially true when the one giving the report knows by experience that most of his “converts” don’t pan out and that most of the professions produced in his ministry are as empty as a homeless man’s refrigerator.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, I am not saying that there are forms of Calvinism that are Scriptural and that it is only some types of more extreme Calvinism that are unscriptural. Spurgeon said that we need to go back to the Calvinism of John Calvin. As much as I respect Charles Haddon Spurgeon (knowing, too, that he was only a man), I must disagree with that grand old warrior in this matter. I say we need to go far beyond that. Calvin himself went back as far as Augustine, but that, too, is not nearly far enough. In fact, depending on the very undependable Augustine was one of Calvin’s chief errors. We don’t need to go back to Calvin or Augustine. We need to go all the way back to “the faith once delivered to the saints” as it is perfectly and sufficiently recorded in the Scriptures! That is where our systematic theology must start AND END.

For more on this subject see the following:

James White’s Debate Challenge - http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/james-whites-challenge.html

Dave Hunt’s Refutation of Calvinism - http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/davehunt-calvinrefutation.html

Debating Calvinism - http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/debating-calvinism.html

The Calvinism Debate - http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/calvinismdebate.html

‘Calvin’s Camels’ - http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/calvins-camels.html

T
tjservant

but I say he understands it better than most Calvinists!

Had to laugh at this one. A non-Calvinist saying that another non-Calvinist understands Calvinism better than Calvinists. I love it! :-P

Oh well.

I read this article awhile back and will not go into any type or kind of debate. There are numerous articles and websites that refute this (David Cloud’s) article. The argument/debate will continue.

While I disagree on several points I really like some statements Mr. Cloud makes in this article.


GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE HIS PEOPLE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN CALVINISM AND ARMINIANISM!

...I don’t follow Arminianism and I don’t care anything about Arminianism. I have studied the theology of James Arminius some and I find errors in it just as I have found errors in John Calvin’s theology.

Many here on SI claim to stand on neutral ground in their beliefs on A and C, but few sound the horn of anti-Arminianism as often as their anti-Calvinism trumpet. This statement is not aimed at anyone in particular.

I praise God that I am not under any divine obligation to follow either Calvinism or Arminianism.

At this time I too find myself in the middle. I would add that my personal study of reformed theology has only served to draw me closer to Him. I now understand that I hold many Reformed views and I see them clearly in scripture.

It is good to get info from all sides.

Thanks for posting Krispy.

S
sermonindex

Hey TJ... how ya doing?

I actually consider myself a Calvinistic Arminian. I think thats where David Cloud kinda falls too.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I would add that my personal study of reformed theology has only served to draw me closer to Him. I now understand that I hold many Reformed views and I see them clearly in scripture.

Just wanted to mention that I have had Mormons tell me the exact same thing... just change the wording a little.

[i]"I would add that my personal study of The Book of Mormon has only served to draw me closer to Him. I now understand that I hold many Mormon views and I see them clearly in scripture."[/i]

... or JW's.

[i]"I would add that my personal study of The Watchtower Magazine has only served to draw me closer to Him. I now understand that I hold many Watchtower views and I see them clearly in scripture."[/i]

I find that fascinating.

Krispy

D
DesiJr

Someone posted this in response to scripture that is posted on the homepage of www.hegavemelife.com
========================
Would we have the power of God so limited as to be unable to do more than our mind can comprehend? The Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the

divine will. Whenever we speak of it, we are speaking of the supreme standard of justice. But when justice clearly appears, why should we raise any question of injustice? Let us not, therefore, be ashamed to stop their mouths after the

example of Paul. Whenever they presume to carp, let us begin to repeat: Who are ye,miserable men, that bring an accusation against God, and bring it because he does not adapt the greatness of his works to your meager capacity? As if every thing must be perverse that is hidden from the flesh. The immensity of the divine judgments is known to you by clear experience. You know that they are called "a great deep", (Ps. 36: 6.)Now, look at the narrowness of your own minds and say whether it can comprehend the decrees of God. Why then should you, by infatuated inquisitiveness, plunge yourselves

into an abyss which reason itself tells you will prove your destruction? Why are you not deterred, in some degree at least, by what the Book of Job, as well as the Prophetical

books declare concerning the incomprehensible wisdom and dreadful power of God? If your mind is troubled, decline not to embrace this counsel , "You a man expect an answer from me: I also am a man. Wherefore, let us both listen to him who

says, 'O man, who art thou?' Believing ignorance is better than presumptuous knowledge.Seek merits; you will find nought but punishment. O the height! Peter denies, a thief

believes. O the height! Do you ask the reason? I will tremble at the height. Reason you, I will wonder; dispute you, I will believe. I see the height; I cannot sound the depth. Paul

found rest, because he found wonder. He calls the judgments of God 'unsearchable;' and have you come to search them? He says that his ways are 'past finding out,' and do you seek to find them out?" We shall gain nothing by proceeding farther. For neither will the Lord satisfy the petulance of these men, nor does he need any other defense than that which he used by his Spirit, who spoke by the mouth of Paul. We unlearn the art of speaking well when we cease to speak with God.
===============================

The idea that God can do what He wants when He wants is a very "holy" and "humble" idea. This is where Calvanists hang their hat.

However,the Word of God in revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient to topple this doctrine. Can God lie? Of course not, it would be against his nature. Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine. He cannot go against Himself, against His nature. And creating man for damnation is against His nature.

To say that God can't do something does not attack His sovereignty. It is just a description of aspects of His character. God can't lie. That doesn't make Him less sovereign.

Is man's heart desperately wicked? Yes. Can man make up His own mind to serve God through Jesus? No. However, when the Holy Spirit begins His work on every living human man can either put their truth in Jesus to save them from their wicked state, only revealed to them by the Holy Spirit....or, they can deny this conviction and continue on their path of damnation. God has given us a way to approach Him. Whether man accepts it by faith or not is not fault of God. His sacrifice is sufficient, but many just don't believe it is.

Because people are given the freedom to receive God's grace or to deny it....does not take away the sovereignty from God. May Jesus receive the Glory of our lives committed to Him and Him alone by the alluring gift of the Holy Spirit.

S
sermonindex

The idea that God can do what He wants when He wants is a very "holy" and "humble" idea. This is where Calvanists hang their hat.

However,the Word of God in revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient to topple this doctrine. Can God lie? Of course not, it would be against his nature. Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine. He cannot go against Himself, against His nature. And creating man for damnation is against His nature.

To say that God can't do something does not attack His sovereignty. It is just a description of aspects of His character. God can't lie. That doesn't make Him less sovereign.

Is man's heart desperately wicked? Yes. Can man make up His own mind to serve God through Jesus? No. However, when the Holy Spirit begins His work on every living human man can either put their truth in Jesus to save them from their wicked state, only revealed to them by the Holy Spirit....or, they can deny this conviction and continue on their path of damnation. God has given us a way to approach Him. Whether man accepts it by faith or not is not fault of God. His sacrifice is sufficient, but many just don't believe it is.

Because people are given the freedom to receive God's grace or to deny it....does not take away the sovereignty from God. May Jesus receive the Glory of our lives committed to Him and Him alone by the alluring gift of the Holy Spirit.

Amen... this is sound, and this is Biblical.

Krispy

T
tjservant

I am doing well. Thanks for asking.

I find that fascinating.

Care to elaborate? Not that I have not heard the same thing myself. Many are swayed by the doctrines of satan. We must continually saturate ourselves in the Word. This is the way to spot false teachings.

I have also read The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. It has also served to draw me closer to God.

Before anyone askes...I read it many many years ago...before I was saved.

S
sermonindex

I have also read The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. It has also served to draw me closer to God.

LOL... good point. Alcohol did the same thing for me.

Krispy

R
roaringlamb

Well, might as well post the other side-

Here's the rebuttal of Cloud's "camel" article-

[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/camels.html]Camels[/url]

R
roaringlamb

And the rebuttal for the Calvinism debate-

[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/cloudcalvinism.html]Calvinism Debate[/url]

R
roaringlamb

And the book of Hebrews article refuted-

[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/hebrewscloud.html]Hebrews[/url]

Please read these before jumping to conclusions.

S
sermonindex

The Calvinism Debate - Part I
Oh no, not again. :-?

C
Compton

Oh no, not again.

One could almost say that around here, threads about Calvinism are foreordained, predestined, and irresistible. :-)

MC

T
theopenlife

Especially [i]irresistible[/i].

I might sit this one out.

Jeremiah 32:40, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

A
andres

“The idea that God can do what He wants when He wants is a very "holy" and "humble" idea. This is where Calvanists hang their haT.”
This is a heresy called nominalism its not from calvinists. From a two fellows named scotus and Occam. Check out Reformed Dogmatics by Bavinck for more info..


.However,the Word of God in revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient to topple this doctrine. Can God lie? Of course not, it would be against his nature. Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine. He cannot go against Himself, against His nature”

God can’t not separate His Character from His Sovereignty. God can’t lie because it’s not in Him to lie. God can’t be unholy and Sinful, even though God is all powerful. God has a free and necessary will. The necessary will is towards His character ( God will always act according to His character) and His free will is towards his creation.
Meaning, it is necessary for God to act according to His nature, but God has freedom in how he deals with creation.

I think we both agree with this?


“And creating man for damnation is against His nature.”
Please read proverbs 16.4, John 17.4, and 1 peter 2:8

”To say that God can't do something does not attack His sovereignty. It is just a description of aspects of His character. God can't lie. That doesn't make Him less sovereign.”

Amen, This makes God Holy and perfect…

love andy

H
hmmhmm

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Rom 11:33


B
BlazedbyGod


KrispyKrittr wrote:
The idea that God can do what He wants when He wants is a very "holy" and "humble" idea. This is where Calvanists hang their hat.

However,the Word of God in revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient to topple this doctrine. Can God lie? Of course not, it would be against his nature. Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine. He cannot go against Himself, against His nature. And creating man for damnation is against His nature.

To say that God can't do something does not attack His sovereignty. It is just a description of aspects of His character. God can't lie. That doesn't make Him less sovereign.

Is man's heart desperately wicked? Yes. Can man make up His own mind to serve God through Jesus? No. However, when the Holy Spirit begins His work on every living human man can either put their truth in Jesus to save them from their wicked state, only revealed to them by the Holy Spirit....or, they can deny this conviction and continue on their path of damnation. God has given us a way to approach Him. Whether man accepts it by faith or not is not fault of God. His sacrifice is sufficient, but many just don't believe it is.

Because people are given the freedom to receive God's grace or to deny it....does not take away the sovereignty from God. May Jesus receive the Glory of our lives committed to Him and Him alone by the alluring gift of the Holy Spirit.

Amen... this is sound, and this is Biblical.

Krispy

"[b]The idea that God can do what He wants when He wants is a very "holy" and "humble" idea. This is where Calvanists hang their hat.

However,the Word of God in revelation by the Holy Spirit is sufficient to topple this doctrine. Can God lie? Of course not, it would be against his nature. Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine. He cannot go against Himself, against His nature. And creating man for damnation is against His nature."[/b]

This statement was proposed the wrong way, and thus ends up with wrong conclusions. The idea that God can do whatever he wants, when he wants, and how he wants, is not only Holy and Humble, but also TRUE. Can God lie-the answer is no, but what is even more important than the fact that he can't lie, is the fact the He would never WANT to lie. Thus God lying should never be associated with his soverignity, or Him being able to do whatever he WANTS when He WANTS, and how he WANTS to.

"[b]Although He is completely and totally sovereign that does not mean that He can do anything that we imagine.[/b]"

Neither does it mean that He can't do things that we CAN'T or DON'T Imagine

"[b]And creating man for damnation is against His nature"[/b]

Since when did ever the Holy Spirit produce such a scripture in the Word of God to say such? Does not the potter hath the power to do or create as HE CHOOSES to make or form the clay? Can ever the thing made say why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:11 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)..14.14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 [b]15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/b]16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20[b]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/b]

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, [b]which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.[/b]

If creating a man for damnation is against his nature-then so would be creating angels for damnation be against his will? But then, I beg to ask of Judas Iscariot, the anti-christ, and the false prophet-who are all human beings-men, yet they are all " sons/men of perdition"? Though we do not know who the anti-christ is, does this mean that whoever he is, it is possible for him to reconciled to God and thus saved-GOD FORBID intensely! Is not this "choosing or election of the saved and damned even shown forth in:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

When did this choosing occur? I think it is obvious, BEFORE the foundation of the world-as to concur with the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:.5[b]Having PREDESTINATED us unto the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL[/b], However, this later part of verse 4 didn't apply to Judas-for thus he did not remain Holy-but indeed the 11 did. Does not this even bring about the very words of our Lord:

John 15:16 [b]Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you[/b], that ye should go and bring forth fruit, AND THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN:

What about the people in Relevation-who were not saved, they worshipped the image of the beast-but the Word of God declared their names were not written in the Lambs book of life FROM the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [b]whose names WERE NOT WRITTEN in the book of life FROM the foundation of the world[/b], when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice: "...whose names "[b]WERE NOT WRITTEN[/b]" in the book of life.." is in the PAST TENSE-and yet, this is a future event.

How is it that their names were not in the book of life FROM the foundation of the world? Especially when Jesus says of those who inherit the kingdom:

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, [b]inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD[/b]:

As Paul states, and thus we who are Christians do too-that when Christ was Crucified-we were Crucified with Christ-yet does not the scripture say that he was " slain FROM the foundation of the world"? Thus all who are presently saved, and all who ever would be saved was crucified with Christ FROM the foundation of the World-leaving all who were not crucified with Christ from then outside of Christ? Isn't this same scene carried out and seen in the story of Noah with the ark? That the only reason Noah built or went in the ark was because the Father "drew" him in-and that the reason no one else entered except him and his family was because God, by his voice or Spirit NEVER drew them to adhere to Noah's message?

I am not defending Calvinism, as to I am not Calvinist, but neither do I know all that Calvinist believe-I am just saying, that God not being able to lie, has nothing to do with him being able to still do whatever He wishes-because the fact is, he would NEVER wish or want to lie. And to say that God didn't or doesn't create man or certain men to be destroyed goes against his nature, is to make a statement that I have never seen in scripture form in the Word of God. Yes, God is Love, but He is no less JUST, RIGHTEOUS, & SOVEREIGN, than He is as Love. God, the Father is not more Love, than he is Just; neither is He more Love, than He is HOLY. He is perfect, He is One! His Mercy endureth forever, but so does His Wrath.

When discussing Calvinism, man's free will seems to always be the main focus of the conversation, however, when will we see or esteem the free-will of God, which is superiorly higher, or most chief than even the supposed free-will of man.

As Jonathan Edwards once eluded to-how can man's will be free-when he is bound by sin-and there is no FREEDOM in sin, only in Truth, and Liberation-which comes from after being born-again and truly regenerated of/in/by the Spirit. Which when one is born-again, it is even because they were drawn of the Father by the Spirit-which still reflects God's choosing according to his own will. All are born in sin, how can the will be free-without the TRUTH of the one who makes us free-if he has not made you free yet?

Thus, I end. Proverbs 16: 4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked "FOR" the day of evil.

L
LoveHim

i think i've come to the place of simply accepting the fact that God truly predestines and man truly chooses.

all i know is that we need to keep the fact of God predestinating balanced with the idea that God does not delight in the death of the wicked and that He has commanded that all men should repent.

i should just stop here.

have a great day,
phil

S
sermonindex

ICHABOD

After reading both posts about Calvinism and those apart, I am grieved, that Satan has gotten so much done to annihilate the church simply because men allowed Christ to be divided to maintain their own power and prestige, and that at the expense of the innocent in the body.


"Be not high minded, but like minded"......."condescend to men of low estate" I am reminded of the Pharisees conference before the murder of Jesus, "If we let Him continue, the Romans will come and remove our nation ,"AND OUR PLACE." They didn't care so much about their nation, but only in the context that their nation granted them religious power, and that was everything to them, even when some of their camp new full well that this WAS the Messiah.


We are commanded to shun endless arguments, contentions and strivings, for they are unprofitable and vain.[TIT:3vs8]..and to rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in faith. The debate over such contentions are in themselves sin, for they shall always be unprofitable, leaving even more division.


The debate in itself, creates a priest class, with 10000 shadowy ideas and quibbles that only the learned can sort out. Yes, it is very complicated, but only because Satan has injected confusion and pride in those willing to use it to rule over God's heritage in such tyrannic methods. CLERGY/LAITY=ABOMINATION

Nicolaitan; "KINGS", OR " LORDS" over My people. This is the Pastor, Ministry class that we, the body of Christ are yet warring against today. Professionals, or those who claim service of Christ as their primary income. Jesus calls them hirelings. They came and go, where ever the position and income is. Jesus stated the reason they come and go, interestingly is because they are hirelings. It's their job. Jesus says that He hates their deeds, and their teaching. HATES their teaching, and deeds....


He also said that the Kings over the gentiles are called benefactors," BUT IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU!"...YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS....


So, long ago, someone didn't stand up to a tyrant, or group of tyrants, and the poison is killing yet today, for when man is honored above the graces of God the Spirit, He is driven out, along with his lamp stand....then everyone dies.


"Is Christ divided?"..."Was Paul crucified for you?".


"Let them alone, for they are the blind leading the blind." This was our Lord's admonishment to religious controversies, and those who would control, or reject non-compliance. You are hated if you do not bow down to their own heresies, there-by His hatred of those who would be Lords...

I like Paul's true Apostolic heart in 2 COR:chapter 1 vs.24,.........."NOT THAT WE HAVE DOMINION OVER YOUR FAITH, BUT ARE HELPERS OF YOUR JOY, FOR BY FAITH, YOU STAND!"....The true Shepard will always lovingly up-gird the lambs, in order that they would believe, and be established in their OWN faith walk with God, for that is the only way anyone will stand, :The Just[ified] shall live by their faith!


Well over half of the world is illiterate, or very basic concerning letters. These are the poor masses that Jesus commanded us to go to, and tell them, and make them disciples [submitted to discipline] of Jesus and God the Spirit. I wish that some of the elite , and wordy theologians would go to the third world for a season, with their bible, and God's love, and learn of His heart in a naked kind of way, for, FAITH WORKS BY LOVE. ....not to be humiliated, but to see that true ministry is always as a brother first, as Jesus walked,, not as a ruler and master of the word and Spirit.


" Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies."
In the end, only those who bear the heart and fruit of heaven, those that that He "knows" will gain Him. From the testimony of this history, both Calvin and Arman were murdering bastards, and enemies to God, and we will be too, if we insist that bearing fruit to Love God with all, and our neighbor as yourself is not as important as understanding portions of their hateful controversy. God's glory will depart, and if you haven't noticed, it has.

God will have one holy body that is equal in love and position in the end, only different in function, and there is neither male nor female here, only that anointing that binds us from heaven. THERE IS UNITY IN HEAVEN.

THIS BODY DOES NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP OF FINDING HIM BETWEEN OUR EARS.

I don't think your heart is wrong... I believe there is a higher calling for us all. There will be a glorious bride that wiil shine and glow, and I want the lost to find it, along with the enslaved church stuck in the traditions and doctrines of ambitious men. brothertom

F
fanap

I have found that those Christians who spend much of their life debating Calvinism, lutherism, weslyism etc. spend very little of their life doing what is most important, that being winning sinners to Christ. This kind of debate is futile in itself and can never be one or does it really matter anyway. We would do better to debate and search the Scriptures than spend our time on pointless arguments such as Calvinism. The poor guy is not even here to defend himself, it is easy attack an absent soul than a present one. Just live as Christ wants you to in this world in the here and now and leave our absent brother (Calvin) out of it.

S
sermonindex

There is an element of temptation to enter this debate because it appeals to the flesh. It appeals to the flesh in this regard that it makes one right and everyone else wrong.

If we are truly dead to sin and alive unto God, there is no glory in being right or wrong. The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil has no hold on us anymore, or at least it shouldn't. I like what Brother Fanap said concerning our brother Calvin.

Such debates NEVER draws us to our knees, it never does. I am not so much concerned about the sinner out there, but I am very concerned about our own people the Church. A very difficult thing to do, but we do need to "strengthen that which remains".

When it's all said and done, it doesn't matter what side you hold to, we are all one in Christ Jesus our LORD.

D
destinysweet

Brothertom..enjoyed reading your message..it reminded me of a conference I attended in 95 in New Orleans near the end of a long journey by faith the Lord had sent me on,an investigative endeavor that took one other sister, my 3 small children,and myself from the west coast across the nation into Toronto,New York,Atlanta,and Florida across the southern gulf into and through New Orleans.He was exposing for us the arrogant sin of America's top preachers, doctrines of demons,traditions of men..also the excesses that were plagueing the body of Christ.He wanted me to be undergirded with wisdom for the years to come so that I would not look to man..regardless of his following..or smooth speech..He was showing us corruption.

The preacher was someone we'd been invited to hear preach in NY in Nov.94..we were staying with a family that needed to be set free from a cultlike vineyard..who'd left the Times Square Church for a closer to home fellowship. this is where I met her.I'd seen a city,New Rochelle..become 3D and leap off the map a few times on our way down the hwy..strange.. what about New Rochelle,Lord?..but it was to let us know when she invited us to come stay with her and her family so we could take showers and do laundry..when told to ask her where she lived,before accepting her invitation.she would be asking her husband first..her reply was New Rochelle.I knew we'd found our divine appointment at that time. Both her and her husband were orphans and vulnerable to the healthy desire to belong to a family of believers.So we went along to see this preacher I'd been hearing about all yr..I cannot remember anything about the substance of the man's message..only the violin player's great talent,glorious music to honor a Glorious God.I remember watching this much lauded preacherman move around the stage.I listened to his tone of voice..but he wasn't saying much of any interest.I couldn't understand what the big deal was..I knew he had brought to America what was proving to be a very controversial movement and that it was dividing the body of Christ. The cultlike hold on this family was dramatically exposed/broken and we heard from them a month later,while we were still in Florida.The story about how God exposed this darkness is a good one..another time perhaps.

So here on our path some 3mos later was this same preacherman giving a conference.God said we were to attend the conference so we did. When he came out and began to preach his particular virulent strain of this plague..I heard the Lord say.."Power corrupts the proud man..see how corrupt he has become in only 3mos...Fame has also corrupted him." I saw how he had changed..it was repulsive,pitiful.He roared and postured and joked,it was painful,but we were told to stay and see where he took things.He offered prayer after the service and everyone lined up all outside to recieve this man's blessing..I was told to get in place and wait for him to come by us..earlier as he had been walking about the place inside,I'd heard the Father say.."Don't let him touch you." so when he came close and it looked like he was coming too close..I leaned quickly away,pulling as much of me as I could abruptly away,almost into my friend's lap..he glared at me darkly for a moment and passed on. So I was suprised to be waiting for him to pass by..this is silly..no I was to wait..ok he wasn't touching people maybe everything would be allright..I'd already suffered much from the tyrannical behavior of 'leadership' on this journey..but God was in control.What happened next was so terrible that for 10 long yrs it was hidden from me, sealed up,until I was visiting a friend onthe isle of Lanai, joining in the efforts there to bring the churches together on the island..this man had come to preach at one of the neighboring congregations.

When he approached me (in New Orleans..in the line)he had a look of determination in his eyes that did not seem at all benevolent..suddenly he took both his hands and crashed them down upon my head like he was crushing a crown of thorns upon me..oh the searing pain! the torturous strange power that coursed through my being..poisonous and cruel..demonic attack and terrible mental turmoil..wave upon wave..the pain was so bad I fell down crying out ,grasping my head moaning as I felt bombarded by strange and terrible demonic forces that were crashing into me and tearing my mind to pieces..it was horrible..I need no exaggeration..no made up dramatics..my friend hovered over me,calling my name lovingly ..very concerned..because I was groaning and gasping for air,trying to shake off this horror..it hurts. I was saying..make it stop Lord,help me!Wham! the attack stopped and I sat there dazed..thinking I had no idea corruption had this effect..but as it lifted and I heard her saying are you all right? Not really but I will be..gimme a minute here.Strange and stranger this all seemd to me..could we go now,Lord?No not yet.When this lifted off the memory of it was sealed up as well as mentioned for a decade.

So we are still at this meeting where he has been preaching (before the line up from hell) and now as he is ending his offcourse discourse..he brings our attention to something he intends to do to cap off the evening's session. Pointing to a large grouping of rows of chairs to the left of him on the stage..he announced.."We are going to honor the clergy here tonight all the pastors and teachers and evangelists that are here with us..who can prove they are rightly documented in the ministry and who sign in on the ledger at the table where we are selling our (whatever) ..they will sit in these seats and we are going to honor them!"He went on to describe some special documents they would all get with their names on them..but I'd stopped listening for the roar that had erupted inside me.
Ahhh! Nooo!The Holy Spirit grieving within me spoke to my heart..I was shaking with the power of this word resonating through me.

"No!I will not have this honoring of men one above the other..all men are called equally.Seperating them in this manner,esteeming one above the other runs counter to My will and My way. In the kingdom of God there is no clergy and there is no laity..there is only the clayity!" In my minds eye I imagined what the folks left sitting in the seats below would once again be feeling..I am not as good as these specially documented,highly esteemed christians..I am a second class citizen..I am not in the 'ministry'..and I remembered a dream I'd had on this same trip,(at an old friends home near Atlanta) a dream where the body of Christ was sleeping on the gifts,in the form of a hand..each finger representing the callings as given to all believers,apostle through teacher..they had all became sick, numb without feeling..gangreneous..barely any clean flesh to see..corrupt and in obvious need of amputation..Horrified I asked God what can be done Lord..Heal this Heal this,please Father!Then as I looked at this hand I saw a flush of color, royal blue..then purple..flood the hand and I thought of the true priesthood that we are..and the hand became rosypink..healthy,full of feeling..A true flesh color, alive! My heart lept for joy..God would heal the body of Christ before His coming..and there where my wrist joined my arm to my hand..because now I was awake ..though the message still went on..A rainbow appeared where my wrist was and I heard the Spirit of truth say.."I give you this promise..I will heal the true callings of my people..and I will never allow them to get in this condition again!"

So here as at the meeting,this man is doing the very thing that puts a large portion of the believers into a stupor of discouragement,of feeling useless and less than and I heard God say "I hate this practice.Honor the Son..to Him be the praise and the glory..All of mine have a calling sure and true..encourage my people in this!" I mulled this over,the clayity..never heard that before..clayity..but it was the two words put together as one..quietly praying that this honoring of men would not happen..I did not want to be there if it did..I'd have to get up and walk out.

Later,that evening for the last service of the day..the speaker came forward,(after he'd suddenly 'laid hands' on me)..and all the fire seemed to have gone out of him..he spoke briefly..and said that God had told him to get out of the way..out of the way completely..and so he said 'I leave this service to the Holy Spirit to direct from here on out.' No one came to sit in the seats..no one was honored but the Lord Jesus Christ,the speaker was not seen in the congregation the rest of the evening..and do you know that when the presence of God came upon that place, He was glorious,He pointed us to Jesus..He encouraged true callings..He made order out of seeming disorder.

I remember distinctly what happened as this man stepped down and got out of the way of what God wanted done there,I went into prayer and just sat waiting in contentment and peace..then God spoke to me about some things that had been on my heart regarding my marraige,(that came to pass a few years later)as I listened to this news..breaking in surrendered tears in responce..I released it all into His hands.Then He had me get up to move about the place to see what He was doing,or where I might be of service..when this wind..a very strong wind seemed to come out of nowhere..blowing against me so hard that I found myself leaning into it to stay upright, pushing against it to keep walking down the aisle which was full of people praying and weeping until I could no longer move for the pressure of this wind blowing against me. The women sitting on the floor nearby praying had been watching me moving in what must of seemed like slow motion..because when I could not go any further,one spoke..Well are you going to pray for me? Since you aren't going anywhere! Who me? Well ok sure. She stood and I dropped my own understanding..letting it fall back and away..like the cover on a rollodeck..how was I to pray Lord? Pray through me by Your Spirit..the prayer was a word about her praying, interceeding for her Indian nation to come to know the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. she recieved it startled and wide eyed.

Down she went on her knees and began to pray in Cherokee,for her people..a young boy came up and looked curiously at her..I narrated..she is praying for her tribespeople in her native tongue..ok..he was satisfied..I waited until I saw she was done, standing behind her..she was rocking back and forth in a manner I'd not seen before..her body seemed to be going over the center of gravity until her face was almost on the floor and she slowly would swing way back beyond what a woman her age would normally be able to extend...it did not look grotesque simply curious because she was obviously defying the laws of physics.Then,"Help her now to lie down"..I felt the Spirit urge me..and so I placed my hands on her back to let her know I was holding her and gently, laid her down and covered her with a blanket..her eyes were closed, a look of peace on her face.

Later she approached me telling of growing up on the reservation and leaving..vowing never to return..so disgusted with the ignorance, poverty and the dissipation of alcohol consumption of so many of the elders in her family..she'd not been back since..but while she had prayed something had changed inside her,a deep bitterness and resentment of longtime embarrassment..she said weeping..God had given her a fresh new commission of love for her lost tribesmen, a broken heart for bringing them the precious gift of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..her living Lord. These are the kind of things that stay in my mind when I think about what God has been teaching me..what is important..what is not.

On Lanai..I was once again touched by this man..I sat with my sceptical friend..she didn't trust him, watching him tell his stale jokes..toss CD's and videos out to everyone who were all reaching me me me I want one,he played us a video of his huge crusades all around the world..him waving his hands over audiences that were mowed over like grain being cut for the harvest..and I tried to believe the best for him hoping he'd done some good but felt a sick feeling in my gut..my memory still closed to what had transpired in the past..but as soon as he grasped my wrist hard and forcefully turning me roughly towards the empty stage..a 5 yr old hawaiian boy and I had been standing stockstill..looking at one another in the eyes..pure love was pouring forth..no strange embarrassment you'd get with adults..no self consciousness..we were both little ones..being filled with the love of God..then I had simply begun to worship God..he grabbed my wrist and I was startled and broke out crying..remembering too much all at once..one of his workers came alongside and asked in an annoyed tone of voice,"What's the matter with you?"..I blubbered something incoherent about being abused when he grabbed me..She said well tell God to stop it..tell Him you don't want it to happen any more!" and off she went..I'm thinking...so now I'm supposed to tell God what I want and don't want when it comes to what I suffer? Like He's my errand boy..I went to sit down..we left passing him at the end of the aisle standing there staring at me with these dark eyes that looked defiant and proud..I remembered..I remembered what happened!I spoke about it with my friend..I have not mentioned it until now.These things should not remain hidden..I am certain of it..so many people are being led into darkness posing as light..the enemy laughs as God's people get mowed down like wheat..we must Keep our eyes upon Jesus..the Author and Finisher of our faith...not be taken in by signs and wonders...we must pray for discernment..God is still moving righteously with power through His surrenderd people.

As I have been reading this post from the beginning I marveled at how different so many of us are ..in the way we have come to know Jesus..in the things that interest us..how we sometimes label ourselves..defining ourselves as aligned to this or that man's teachings..we differ in the ways we've been taught,the ways we've been led,in the things we've learned, and sometimes forgotten or don't remember that we have read before because the information wasn't of any great importance or because it was off kilter..not plumb with the truth..and what we find to be worthy of our time and discussion and focus.

Although I found the differences in the information stated here to be educational..I couldn't help thinking that here I am in my 50's and somehow I'd never needed this knowledge to walk with God.Would it have changed anything for me if I'd known this information..what was it's value in the overall scheme of things..this stuff maybe should be left in the past where it belongs..but as you say their are still Calvinists today..I am a disciple of Jesus..I don't wish to follow after the teachings of men..He will have to make it real for me before I will believe it..no matter how eloquent and intellectually stimulating.

I'd met predestinationalists..is that a word? years ago but they had no love..harsh..intense driven..and I remember they were also white supremacists..domineering towards their wives and aloof with their children.racist.I realized that I may have clumped this together in my mind..the supremacists,predestination aspects but on closer look I would say it is the same type of spirit...fostering an elitist mindset..principality..archtype of thinking..antichrist..or opposite of the Spirit of Christ who has always coached me to ask for the ability to see all people through the eyes of the Father..as potentially redeemable..and well worth the effort and time it takes to compell them to come into the kingdom of heaven/God through the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ..thank you Lord for reducing the religious intellectual clutter in this pea brain of mine and helping me to stay focused on the simplicity of the blood shed for all of us pea brains by You,because God's love provided the Way of all ways..His Son,that none would have to perish.

The only preaching about Calvin I've ever heard from the pulpit was one pastor's penchant for sharing some insight he'd gotten reading a Sunday newspaper comicstrip character..Calvin and his stuffed tiger friend Hobbs.I don't feel as though I've missed a thing.

T
theopenlife

DestinySweet said,

[People who believed in sovereign election] had no love..harsh..intense driven..and I remember they were also white supremacists..domineering towards their wives and aloof with their children.racist.I realized that I may have clumped this together in my mind... I would say it is the same type of spirit...fostering an elitist mindset..principality..archtype of thinking..antichrist..or opposite of the Spirit of Christ.

These are very harsh words. Please consider the generalization as it is stated. Surely you are aware that there are literally millions of people throughout the world who believe in sovereign election? These people are of many races and regard one another as brothers. Read David Brainerd's journal. He submitted his life to serving Native Americans and died loving them, and he believed these doctrines. Whitefield was known for his weeping sermons to the lost, visiting Barbados to preach to people of other races. He ministered to slaves. Spurgeon was respected for his humility, kindness, and generosity towards the needy of all colors. Edwards had an uncommonly wonderful marriage. Piper is regarded for his warm family life. Paul washer is credited for empowering foreign missionaries and being a committed father. You seem to have had a bad experience, and I am sorry for that, but your misunderstanding of the doctrines has soured your mouth, even to the point of offending Paul's words.

Eph 1:3-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."


Fanap said,


I have found that those Christians who spend much of their life debating Calvinism, lutherism, weslyism etc. spend very little of their life doing what is most important, that being winning sinners to Christ. This kind of debate is futile in itself and can never be one or does it really matter anyway. We would do better to debate and search the Scriptures than spend our time on pointless arguments such as Calvinism.

It is through searching the scriptures that people have come to these understandings. Calvinism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, etc., are nothing more than shorthand descriptions of how people understand the scriptures.

Secondly, it is not a pointless debate. It matters if born-again Christians can fall away or not because it says a lot about Christ's work, death, and intercession on behalf of the saints. It matters if we are elected unconditionally or if we are chosen based on foreseen actions. When you say, "it is pointless", you brush aside thousands of your brothers and many of our most cherished heroes of the faith as short-sighted imbeciles. i don't wish to list names again, but may I remind you that those most concerned with "pointless" things like Calvinism, Lutheranism, and Wesleyanism were... Calvin, Luther, and Wesley!! And each was a passionate soul winner!!

If our point is to glorify Christ through a proper understanding of truth then it is good to consider these things. There is a place to be benevolent towards brothers who have differing opinions. There is also a time to draw lines.

T
theopenlife

I do not believe any single denomination of our One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, whether Baptist, Reformed, Methodist, etc., has all of the truth resting under its umbrella alone. Yet there are some issues which are non-negotiable and in these instances I have a trepidation about compromising in what I represent. Please bear with me as I give an example.

For instance, I believe that my personal salvation is contingent upon persevering in faith until the end. If I do not persevere, I shall not be saved. However, I also believe that all of the invisible elect are secure from the foundation of the world and are preserved to glorification in Christ. It is the balance of "being careful to maintain good works," for "without holiness none shall see God," and also "of those you have given me, none are lost," for "those He sanctified, He also glorified."

This is to say that I have difficulty aligning with anyone who teaches truly born-again people may "lose their salvation". Granted, in this life we cannot determine whether someone else is truly regenerated, therefore we must tell them, "if you are elect you will persevere by God's grace until the end," and at the same time, "you must persevere or you will be damned." This provides the scriptural balance of dependence upon God's sustaining grace rather than upon our carnal endurance and works-based justification.

There are, however, persons who would teach that Christ later disowns some of his adopted children; that His seed does not abide; that the fruit of His people does not remain; that some are snatched from His hand; saints for whom He interceded are lost; sinners whose penalty He bore yesterday shall bare it again in hell tomorrow. This error thrusts the Christian out upon his own ability to remain in Christ. After all, if Christ is equally committed to all true saints in helping them to endure, and yet some at last fall away, what then makes one to differ? Why only his works! For Christ was equal in intercession towards all and yet one has attained where another fell.

To teach the sobering doctrine that even the most sincere professor may yet apostatize is biblical and necessary. However, to espouse a notion that the elect may finally perish is both heretical and blasphemous. If for this I am branded a Calvinist, let the iron be heated seven times hot to leave the mark well set.

I do hope that I have not displayed a needlessly argumentative or haughty spirit regarding such doctrines, but they are matters of salvation and so deserve most stringent care. I do not write any of this with specific persons in mind. Many ministries have been frequent blessings to me and I am indebted to people of various backgrounds. I

T
tjservant

...their are still Calvinists today...

Most people that are saddled with the ‘Calvinist’ label are not followers of Calvin or even his teachings, but are simply ‘Reformed’ in their theology and adhere, to varying degrees, to the five points of the doctrines of grace (TULIP). ‘Calvinist’ is often a misnomer. I would speculate that a large percent of Reformed believers do not know Calvin’s full name and are to the most part unaware of his history.

C
crsschk

An older post for everyones consideration;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11067&forum=36]Practical Wisdom For Calvinists*[/url]

T
tjservant

Thank you brother Mike. . . most excellent article. I hope many read it.

T
theopenlife

The article looks great, I'll try to read it tonight! Thanks!

S
sermonindex

I so enjoyed your testimony speaking of your journey of faith. What a precious adventure to be led, and protected by God. Abraham left UR, not knowing where his home would then be, but he sought a city where God lived. If we consider Hebrews 11; who are these folks of whom the world was not worthy,??; the family of the hall of fame of FAITH.

How few there are who have ever tasted the satisfaction of dependence on God, and seeing Him provide over and over, with awesome PROVISION of grace, and deliverance, and holy direction; sprinkled with divine appointments and material blessing as well, all while there is nothing to prove it, or substantiate it in this world!

And the mystery of it all, is hidden in our faith, that He is real, and involved in my details, and likes me, and GOD WALKS WITH ME. This is very encouraging to me. Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father do."


It's a different life than that of your average Sunday Believer, who spends a morning tuning in, and shaking hands, fulfilling his or her membership duties, and then going home til next Sunday, to do it again.


Jesus said, "That which is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination before the Father." Only as we abide in the Spirit, do we bear fruit.


I traveled to India, China, Israel and Wales last year, all to bring Jesus. I went entirely by revelation, without any contacts; some by visions, some dreams, some spoken Word by the Lord himself. I went to the poor in India, and preached Christ in you , the hope of glory. I never prepared a message, and preached as I was led, spontaneously. I had a burden for the young and old, that Christ had made a way for each and any of them to be as close to God as anyone who ever lived.


The religious system there is very strong, oppressing the little ones , consigning them to a lifetime of pew sitting and meager support of their "Pastor". I broke that with all the fury I could muster, setting as many free as the Lord led, with this message of Liberty; Christ in you, the Hope of glory. Jesus wants to possess each and all of you as His special treasure, and know you, and honor you, as much as anyone in the Bible. Girl or boy, young and old. Jesus wants you, and loves you so much; and the Priest up front is just like you, except he thinks he's not.


I was assaulted on all fronts. The Islamicists, the Indian Government, but most of all the religious spirit, bound in so called Christian ministries. I was hated with venom.. I joke, Dracula would have been more popular. I saw commitment to water baptism from those who believed, and real healings. The people sought me out to come to their homes to pray for the sick, and I did, and with results, some instant. This really ticked off the religious crowd.


I had confidence and a clear conscience like I've never experienced.


China was hard. I went to Hong Kong to wait for the door. I was there in total isolation a week, in a lot of pain. The door opened, and I went in to mainland China. No contacts, no speaking chinese. I met American teachers, and a church, and a translator, and then was carried 1000 miles inland to small villages where they had never seen a foreigner. It is here that I ministered, and here that the Lord brought the true underground church to me.


They came by night under the penalty of jail and worse. They had sentries posted, and again I preached and prayed with no preparation. They were so broken. It was what I asked the Lord for, long before. I attempted to wash their feet. I was attacked by a massive Demon, who manifested himself in my room. It was awful, but Jesus in me prevailed . I got sick, though, and was ill for several months. I felt Jesus's approval for my heart on that leg of my trip.


I went to Israel in the same way, with no contacts, or clear direction, and into Wales. I was gone 5 months. Always the same; the religious hated me, mostly professionals, the common, and those who walked alone and daily with Him, received me. I am still hurting from this journey, but I wouldn't change a thing, I'm forgetting about it, and preparing to go again, somewhere, this spring, '08.

In the long run, all the travel is certainly not one whit more spiritual in God's eyes, than suffering His discipline here in the mundane work-a-day world I live in. It's all about abiding and enduring. I've had moments of Glory, and years of death it seems; certainly years of battle.[not the happy kind]

But, I am ruined. I am obsessed with pleasing Jesus of Nazareth, and following Him. My goal is to be a good brother, and to honor the brothers, even to the least of the brothers. I fear Him, and I know that as much as I have done it to these little ones, I have done it to the Lord Himself. [ Isn't it funny how "pastors feel insulated from this mighty commandment, feeling that they can act as they please to the lowly body, because they are in MINISTRY?]


"for this cause many among you are weak, and sick, and some sleep[are dead],,BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT RIGHTLY DISCERNED THE BODY."..So it's important, isn't it ' to be a good brother or sister, and honor every Blood washed family member of Heaven, the exact way that Jesus does.....and remember,, Jesus is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS! Until the big dinner, Tom.

R
revival617

I am not a Calvinist and I used to have such opposition against this doctrine, that I held it against others that believed it (or even part of the TULIP). I was wrong and don't do this anymore. The main thing is to not cause division over this and to love one another. The debates got nowhere for hundreds of years and they certainly won't today.

Lord Bless

Robert

D
destinysweet

Amen BrotherTom..dynamic testimony..such a blessing today to read this..powerful witness accompanied it while I read..not just because you concur with me..no..but because of the glory of God that rests upon the reality of these journeys by faith..I sometimes wish everyone could know the peaceful joy and assurance that accompanies one who is called to step out in total faith and follow Jesus this way..but the Father reminds me..not everyone is called in the same manner..He says it is enough for them to recieve your testimony..it is then as though they have done it also..if they are with you and recieve you..they share in the reward.I have an enormous amount of admiration for folks who are called to stay in one place..who abide in faith when there are no super noticeable..extraordinary things confirming nearly every move you make..on journeys..there is a whole different dynamic in motion..it is easier than most folks would suspect.I always feel (imagine perhaps..or determine it as so) as though I have the entire believing body inside me along with the Holy Spirit when God uses me to do anything out of the ordinary for the kingdom..what for me might be normal(but never common)..God going about His business in whatever way He determines..so it is not just me but the one body with me.. doing what I am qualified or made specifically to do..them holding the fort..their hearts and minds focusing on Jesus..loving and obeying God as a living sacrifice..their lives a worship..a living prayer also. I see this in an undergirding way..it is very strengthening.It is a very fine line to see where something is off kilter in typical church practice..and another thing to be called to speak against it..I'm not absolutely certain..but I suuspect that when our attitude isn't plumb with The heart and mind of Christ we will impede others being able to recieve the truth..simply because of the way we present it.I am yeilding myself daily in the desire to be able to present what I have seen and know to be true in the manner God would have it presented..when..why..or not yet.


On that note in response to Theopenlife? was it you decided I had a sour tongue in declaring predestination theory and supremacy,racist type mindsets to operate according to similar archtypes of thinking..human soulish thinking..not according to heavenly law or principle? It takes me having to ask Him to help me know exactly how to explain to others what is sometimes automatic with me..having beem resolved issues long ago .so I have not thought about why I have come to be able to see the same basic principles at work.Whether inaccordance with basic heavenly law and principle or traditons and doctrines of men and demons being exalted above the most basic knowledge of God and His kingdom and how it operates. I have to break things down as to why I discern what I do,in order to explain what may be so simple to me..but because of the nature of deception and the the flesh's attachmnet to that which is atractive to it's desire to be superior etc. become strongholds of some power..sometimes difficult to pry loose from the determined grasp of those who'vefallen sway to whatever the teaching/mindset is.

I have sat in the presence of the Spirit of Truth all day today and listened intently while ..truly I believe..I recieved some very basic reasons why this exclusive/elitist perspective does not come from the very throne of God..but resonates more,like a musical note plucked that is untrue..sharp..or flat..at any rate offkey..in my spirit. this doctrine is not a true key..it reminds me of a counterfeit law..which was added later to muddy the works..confuse men's minds..a robbery. There was so much today,I will have to begin with a few basic things for you chew on first.

1. there may be a differrence between what you are calling soveriegn election and what this may mean to someone else.But if I am to think of it in the most basic of terms..some are created for damnation and some for salvation..predetermined beforehand..it's all God's choice beforehand..His whim either way.Solidly fixed and unchangable from before the world was created.

This concept flies in the face of(is in opposition to):

a.the immutable heavenly principle of Free Will
b.the unchangeble and highest law of love and liberty
c.the reality of True Justice in judgement in regards to the gospel of salvation through the righteous blood shed for all,available for all,attainable for all..lest it prove not to be truth at all.


I you don't know what is meant by these..remember..free will is something that allowed for the first sin of pride,Lucifer had free will..a heavenly principle free will..even God does not overide this basic law..it is an aspect of the heavenly law of liberty.

When I ask God who originated this doctrine ..using one verse like the one about being predestined to adoption does not a doctrine make. the full counsel of God must be sought for, asked for.God's wisdom must prevail in this.Expecting to recieve..I listen and look when He shows me the fruit of any mindset that sets some men as especially made for and for others..sorry not you..in something as necessary as salvation in Jesus.the entire judaic religion waas formed to reveal this one magnificent provision for all men!egually available to all..the other option is inequity..which shows bias..which shows conditional preference..there is no truth in this..no justice in this..no purity in this thinking.It smacks of man's flesh..which loves to think himself superior for whatever reason..it appeals to the fleshly mind..my spirit rejects it for good reason..it is a soulish..demonic mindset. the flesh is at emnity with the spirit..the war that accompanies this argument for as long as it has been being preached proves that it is not pure..it is not peaceable.I can go on for hours on the ways this concept grieves God..it is not divine principle..but for now I will close and let you consider some of the words/concepts I was given in response to my query about why I see this the way I do..The spirit of truth broke it all down to the lowest common denominator..pride..I don't imagine it was the folks who though themselves not necessarily of am elite predestined who adhered to this type of thinking..basic religious pride..Satan loves to make up extra curricular notions to draw the regenerate man out of the truth of God's pure word..the truth of His huge all encompassing love..for all creation..making it a doctrine of demons.

As far as your friends ..the names you mentioned in your complaint to me..I have no attachment to needing to see them as infallible ,these people,brethren surely if they were/are obediant to the Lord..but that does not automatically make everything they thought of or spoke about or did, true..I do not reject them..but what they believe is dangerous and unfruitful..if you have some sentimental attachment to them being right in all their ways..I do not have that disadvantage or that luxury..my eyes are so focused on the Name above all names..what He has done to provide a way for all..the very words from His own mouth..His gospel..Him who is Holy,Just and True, that even if I remembered these men by their names through having read about their marraiges or the rest of what they believed that was truth according to Jesus..somehow whatever they achieved has become dim in my mind due to the way His Light, pure and undefiled Presence shines in my heart,illuminating my spiritual eyes to see and in my ears that do hear what the spirit is saying.If Jesus takes out His powerful sword and divides between soul and spirit..bone and marrow..a construct vs what gives the construct life don't expect me to desire the empty construct if it denies the very life,truth..the very purity of divine justice..by removing the marrow of free will from the equation.


S
sermonindex

Brothertom... I think showing up new to the forum and declaring ICHABOD is rather immature. Apparently you know nothing of the nature of this forum, and seem ignorant of the relationships here. Iron sharpens iron, and mature brethren discussing issues like these is very spiritually healthy and edifying if done in the right spirit.

Krispy

T
tjservant

Brother Krispy

Is it to much to ask that you remove the anti-Calvinism quote from your signature? Do you not see that it is just begging for trouble…not much above the ICHABOD statement…

While I and others that frequent SI may be accustom to your ‘anti’ this and that ways, new brothers and sisters coming to this forum may not find this very welcoming.

I’m all for healthy discussion, but this seems like a low blow. Weaker brothers and sisters may not be able to resists such instigating remarks.

What would happen if everyone started slamming doctrines and theologies in their signature quotes?

S
sermonindex

Krispy: Ichabod simply implies that "THE GLORY OF THE LORD HAS DEPARTED",, referring to the endless strife and controversies that we are commanded to abstain from, and the Lord's obvious judgement on those involved; particularly murderers like Calvin......Not necessarily those involved in debating it,,


Also, I didn't know that "being new here" had one whit to do with my opinions, or basic understanding of the controversies that some of you have evidently been involved with for YEARS. To me, and obviously many others that have endured these fruitless quibbles and unsolvable disputes that are veterans here, it is vanity, and I say that God's glory will depart if you give yourself over to them.

Why?, is my question. Do you honestly believe that this is standing in defense of the Gospel? I think not. As I said; most of the world is illiterate, or close. When, in discipling them, are they indoctrinated in such pearls of spiritual understanding? Do you get off in this theological ping- pong to be right, or to be seen as more learned,or to defend your idea of ministry in yourself, so that others would marvel at "a great mind"?

The point is, you may be only stroking each other, while the lambs are feeding where the food is.

"THE TRADITIONS OF MEN HAVE MADE VOID THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD."


This in reality is the meaning of ICHABOD.....He departs. brothertom

S
sermonindex

DESTINY: I did NOT write this rebuttal to you. I remember reading it, but please go back and respond to the right person.


sorry for any misunderstanding. please let me know that you've stratened this out.


Brothertom.

S
sermonindex

Is it to much to ask that you remove the anti-Calvinism quote from your signature? Do you not see that it is just begging for trouble…not much above the ICHABOD statement…

Is this better...?

Krispy

D
destinysweet

No worries Tom..I responded to Theopenlife..thanks for the pm.and your concern. sorry I didn't make that more clear..I really enjoyed the second post(his) following the complaint from Theopenlife..I should check to see if I've got the name correct..but I really felt his heart in his own personal testimony..I don't mind admitting that for whatever reason God has not seen fit for me to focus on these others he wrote about though.My mentors from the past that He has chosen to bring before my eyes are of a certain quality..not usually so legalistic that they put people to death for disagreeing..the whole burning at the stake stuff really turns me off.. If aspects of their lives has inspired you into a more perfect union with the Lord Jesus Christ..yea! Please consider what I brought up though..not leaning on your own understanding or even theirs..go before the throne with the whole thing..that's what we need to be doing always. We can agree to disagree..but I would be amiss not to show you what I'm seeing..what I'm hearing about the reasons this cannot be pure wisdom.

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