Martin Luther King

MARTIN LUTHER KING

Today is the day, forty years ago, that Martin Luther King was shot. When I consider his life and the lives of those who were involved in that movement, I am deeply moved at their courage and the commitment to truth and to justice.

I believe, that to a genuine Christian, injustice is one of the hardest things to deal with. It goes against everything that we are and when we witness it, no matter where, no matter what the context, it is always agonizing to our souls. We instinctively begin to march in lockstep behind the forces that would right a wrong.

The reason we do this is because we are recipients of the outcome of the greatest injustice known to man. When Jesus was lynched, when Jesus was dragged in front of men who cared nothing for justice, who had already decided what to do with Him, then we know that His Holy Spirit burns within us with a spirit that identifies with all lynched men. We identify with injustice, wherever it would take place around the world.

When I see the old footage of the peace marches and I see vicious dogs being set on innocent people, my spirit rises up within me. Oh how I would rather take my place in the march and face danger and death at every turn, than to be found behind the curtain, safe, but somehow part of the baying crowd who sought to do harm to those who marched.

When I saw the contorted faces of those whose hearts were filled with hatred, murder in their eyes for men, woman and children, just because of the color of their skin, it makes me shudder. Yet here is the most glorious and brilliant part of Martin Luther Kings movement……..non-violence.

This is the strategy of the sermon on the mount. This is the universal principal of not returning evil for evil. This is the strategy of Calvary itself. It is so sad that so few Christians move in this glorious freedom. Freedom from revenge, freedom from the chains of hatred, freedom from the bondage of bitterness. Only those, who move in this freedom can love with a supernatural love, everything else is of this earth and is from the flesh.

When I witnessed the news-clips from those days of the civil rights movement, men and woman coming under withering attacks from the forces of evil and they simply lay down in the streets and refused to fight back, I witnessed true strength. This is the power of God. Every part of our humanity screams out for people to defend themselves. It is in our very DNA , the gene of self defence and survival.

So when Jesus begins to teach His people with a series of “You have heard that it was said…………but I say to you,” then He begins to teach revolution. Not a revolution against civil authorities, although it can have that outcome, but a revolution against the very essence of sinful man. Every part of self , every corrupted gene in the human body is taken on and exposed on the Mount. Jesus gives us the strategy to destroy the wickedness of the flesh and to become new creatures in Him.

So when our enemy spits in our face, slaps it, then we turn the other cheek. When he assaults us, compels us, we do not resist, but rather we surrender to the flesh and return love. Even as I write this my own flesh rises up. It so goes against my humanity, my manliness, my Scottishness. Yet my Jesus told me that if my enemy compels me to carry a load for a mile, I was to carry it for two. If he steals my coat I was to give him my cloak also. Can I give you a modern day example?I warn you, this will be rough, especially for men.

You are out for the evening with your wife. You leave the restaurant and head towards your car. Out of the shadows a man steps forward and punches you in the face. You are knocked to the ground. Your wife is screaming. He leans down and takes your wallet from your inside pocket. He laughs and turns slowly to walk away. You reach into your pocket and grab the $20 bill that you have there and you say sir, you forgot this and you hand him the $20 bill.

Does this story not assault every part of who you are as a man? This author does not claim this kind of strenght. Yet we know that Jesus on the cross was not without His power. We know that at any point in time and space that Jesus could have defended Himself, He could have destroyed the forces that were ripping Him apart. Yet, the very people that were ripping Him apart, you and me, were the people that He had came to save. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” He rendered unto them love rather than hatred. That love was a demonstration, not a feeling. His love was proven by the fact that He did not strike back, His love was proven by the fact that He could strike back but chose not to. It was in the choice not to avenge, not to render evil for evil that evil was exposed, humiliated and destroyed.

We know Martin Luther King today, this country is changed today, because of this policy of non-violence. Many of the chains that bound us as a people were broken because some chose to lie down in the street and not fight back. The people that were exposed were the ones who were fighting and screaming and filled with evil.

Who do you know today who deserves your wrath? Who has wronged you today ? In your own personal story, which force is going to win out? Will you go to your death beds having lived a life of defending yourselves and your rights? If you truly want to see victory in your life, if reconciliation is truly a goal of yours will you employ the ways that seem so right to you? Or, will you go back to the sermon on the mount, will you revisit Calvary and learn from the Master of your soul.

I have a dream this day. I dream that men and woman of God around the world would rise up and take their rightful place in the Kingdom of God. If that means death to the flesh, or perhaps even literal death, then is it not better to die for our God in the glorious cause of freedom than to live out our lives in mediocrity? Better to only live one more day, but live that day a free man, than to live forty more years in the shadow of fear. Better to die in the street a chain breaker, than to be found cowering behind the door with a gun, ready to shoot anyone who “tries to get me and mine.”
http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com

I love that story sojourner, it is the power of God and a man at peace in the midst of the storm........Frank

"A very attainable dream in Christ Jesus. Oh to be complete in Him."

Very attainable dream brother, i totaly agree.................Frank

truly in many regards, a black Moses!

your right, no black preacher in the mainstream that I know of that is currently preaching such awesome counsel of God...

pray bros

Blessings to all as we continue to prayer and and to ask God for HIS burden

May the Lord raise up Godly leaders, men who fear God more than they fear men, in all communities...................Frank

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/

Hi Ginnyrose

Let me address two issues. Number one, I have no idea if Martin Luther King committed adultery. Here is the extent of what I wrote about Martin Luther King in my piece ....

"When I consider his life and the lives of those who were involved in that movement, I am deeply moved at their courage and the commitment to truth and to justice."

I stand by those remarks. What I was adressing, and what I know to be facts, was the people, just ordinary folk from the south, attacking innocent people. I witnessed that my self on the old news reel from the days. I also saw the national guard lining the streets because some kids wanted to go to High school. I saw ordinary housewives, their faces contorted by hatred, spew out evil on these kids. I saw signs stating that no blacks were allowed in establishments. These are all facts, what is actually known, and what is a fact and what my piece was about was the non-resisting part of the civil rights movement, led by Dr King, which were principals from the sermon on the mount.

So, the word revere is your word Ginnyrose, not mine. Perhaps if you re-read the piece, you will see my point was that if we follow the teachings and example of Jesus, vicious evil is exposed and chains are broken............Frank
PS..The fact that the "Church," was segragated, especially in the south, is a disgrace and a shame to all who profess to be Christians. The least segragated place in this country should be our places of worship, the fact that it was not is a sign of the victory of the world over the church.
http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com

Ginnyrose....Not quite sure how you acertain speed. I merely answered, fully I thought, the points that you raised. I revere no man, I believe words to be important, and you placed a word on my lips that I did not use. I do revere the Lord Jesus and "all," of his teachings.

I am not sure I want to get into a debate about how black people were treated in the South, I believe , or believed that was self evident to most Americans, perhaps you have a different opinion?

Let me say that I also admire Winston Churchill, a man that spent a lot of his time drunk. I also admire General Paton, a man with a few problems but a brilliant general. To that list I would add Ghandi.

My piece was about how does one, as a Christian, respond to hatred, evil, bigotry and wickedness, not about Dr Kings spiritual status or his sins, that I know nothing about, nor care for that matter.

PS, Perhaps you read my piece from a different perspective than most?

Being a southerner I've learned I can never win when entering a discussion like this because those not from the south have a preconceived notion about all of us... which is nothing more than prejudice. Kind of interesting to think about, isnt it?

Christian comedian/commentator Brad Stine got it right when he said there are two classes of people in America of whom it is not "politically incorrect" to make fun of... chide... malign... and mis-characterize... Southerners and Christians. I'm both (and proud of it).

Krispy

" those not from the south have a preconceived notion about all of us... which is nothing more than prejudice."

Krispy, I dont care what geographical point on a map that anyone comes from, I find it quite bizarre that Christians would, the only thing that matters is the conduct of those who call upon the name of Jesus. By the way, I formerly came from Scotland, I now belong to, and get my identity from belonging to the new Jerusalem. I am a citizen of a kingdom yet to come, and of that, I am very proud..............Frank

PS, As an aside, did anyone get the irony in the quote?

By the way, I formerly came from Scotland...

No offense brother, but I'm not surprised you dont understand what I am saying, but I am glad you're here!

And I agree with the rest of your post, however saying I am proud of my family heritage is not as sinful as you're trying to make it sound. :-)

Krispy

Hi Krispy...I do understand what you are saying. I know what it means to very proud of ones heritage, the Scottish are famous for it, which is why I mentioned it :-)

Consider this Krispy, is it possible that I have a more even view of it, since I niether come from the North or the South? Of all the replies that I had on this post, from this venue and others, I only recieved one negative view and that was from Ginnyrose who missed the point of the post altogether. Although the post was entitled Martin Luther King, I only made one reference to him. My post was about the revolution that Jesus brought about, not only socially , but right into the DNA of men. And the sermon on the mount blew everything out of the water, it turned man on his head.

Given your response, which is mild brother, I know :-) I think I see an oversensitivity here which may be indicitive of unfinished business from people of the south, I may be wrong, but this is what I feel. When Ginnyrose condemns Martin Luther King as an unrepentant adulterer, perhaps it would be more useful to look at the Christians of the North and the South and see if there may be any unrepentance in our own hearts for our activities , or lack therof , during the period of apathied(a system of legalized racial segregation )

So, my scenaro would be, if you were a Christian, and you owned a restaurant in downtown Jackson in 1964, would you serve African Americans? If you were a Christian and you were a patron of that restuarant, would you still go there if they refused to serve African Americans? You see, whether the restaurant owner or the patron, we have and had a responsibility to do whatever is right and stand on the side of justice. Jesus would never discriminate against any man , neither should we. So a better question for Ginnyrose may be, has all the churches in her area, who either participated or remained silent while injustice took place, repented? We will never know if Martin Luther King repented before he died, but I am sure that most of the churches that existed then, still exist today and that many of the same people still attend those churches. Better to worry about the beam in our own eye(institutinal racism) than the speck in another brothers eye. ..................Frank

And so was David, he was an adulterer,

Jacob, not a part time liar or deceiver!

Abraham was faithless b4 he listened

Elijah, looked for serious self pity

Moses disobedience prior to entering the promise

Soloman, duhhhhhh!

Peter hypocrite, racist, you name it of him during his lowest moments. A liar a betrayer

Borthers and sisters,

there is this need to demonize MLK Jr, but look a little deeper...

Appolus, i will say this again,

This will be of offense to whomever

Very shallow people look for the discrepancies in others, it is as if we(christians-critics) hate someone whom has stepped out of their comfort zone for God as if we have a jealousy or lack of life within us.

Expand your righteous minds my fellow christians. The scriptures, the good book, our guide or reference details the lives of many fault-filled, backslidden, mistake laden men and women (mostly men)with their deeds and selfish sinful ways....

Let us allow God to be the judge for what we do not truly know the end result of........

Until one of us is anointed with such anointing to separate wheat from tares, we should truly shut up for God's sake.
Rather we should say, what greatness of God to touch a human, a man, a women.... to stand against the wiles of Satan....

In Christ's name

Amen to these posts from ccchhhrrrissss and ejg. It is the weighty issues that I am concerned with, the dying and the yielding and the surrendering, for only by dying and yielding and surrendering can we come into the presence of God. In His presence we will find fire, and that fire will consume the petty nonsense that takes up most of our time here on this planet................Frank

I believed that Ginnyrose had a different perspective, and there you have it, she has laid it out. I will let my brothers and sisters read it for themseleves and comment..........brother Frank

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com

Anyone can call me what they want after this, but Ginny needs to hear this, also, to be making such comments, i hope that you are African -American to think you know the plight of the people that built this country on their backs.....

GinnyRose,

you r a judge, and i will not entertain your cynicism. You are simply ridiculous not personally becuz i do not know you, but as crippling on this issue. all you have to say from the very first post is NEGATIVE, simply to find fault , and this isn't the first post that you look for negativity..

You see Ginny these aren't comments to defend the faith, but they are slanderous, and definitely NOT uplifting...

Also, the comments are pharisaical and religiously judgmental unto ginnnyrose's opinion or thoughts

Even though your comments are highly ridiculous, you r loved, but your comments are rebukable, and I cannot allow you to degrade this man's or his legacy. God used him mightily..........

this post was all about how God used the man, how he allowed God to use him. I am done brother appolus with Ginnyrose, this is what sickens me about this site, I really try to bare, but the people, I do not know if i can call them saints, they are VICIOUS Appolus...... yes, we are to pray for them, but we are to run them out of the house also...

Hi Guys

When I wrote this post, I did not intend it to be a post about racism. I am amazed at what the Lord taught on the sermon on the mount, it changed everything, a revolution of the DNA. I think if anyone read my post, they would see that, while the post was entitled "Martin Luther King," it was all about Jesus.

I do agree with Paul that people must be allowed to express their opinions. This is how we learn. That is why I invited Ginnyrose to tell us her perspective. EJG, I understand your pain on this issue. I do believe that I have a unique perspective on this issue as I do not come from the States. I would respectfully suggest to Ginnyrose that this does not take away from my own opinion and perspective.

I am a student of history. I have watched a thousand documetries and read countless books on these issues. I was careful in my post and in my replies to comment only on what I knew to be true. Dr King did lead a non-violent movement. Was there a lot of violence and riots and cities burning in the 60s? Yes, that cannot be disputed. I am not sure what that has to do with Dr Kings philosophy, unless Ginmnyrose is suggesting that while Dr King spoke publicly about non-violence, he secretly plotted violnce behind close doors. There is no evidence at all to suggest that and I would refute that.

Can I suggest to Ginnyrose that when Rosa Parks refused to sit at the back of the bus(God bless her) in the 50s, there was no cities burning. In fact my African American brothers and sisters decided to walk to work and to town, brilliant.

I think the bus issue and the whole aparthied issue was ignored by Ginnyrose, I think it was, although she hinted that there was worse than that going on, which of course there was. I was more interested in my question being answered, where were the Christians up until the 60s? Why were the churches segragated? Why did Christians not stand up and be counted? Thats why I suggested near the end of my post that I would rather march with the downtrodden, than be part of the crowd or sit at home and do nothing.

We know that all of Germany was guilty for the Nazis, and were sorely punished because of this. There can be national guilt, one does not have to actively participate in crimes against people to be guilty of them.

So, I would ask Ginnyrose, do you accept that the whole system in the South was rotten to the core? Do you accept that reconstruction failed after 10 years and the North packed up and went home and the plight of the African American was, in many cases, worse after the civil war?

Do you accept that the Govenor was completely wrong and the Government were right to send in the National guard to protect those young kids from a crowd that would have ripped them to pieces?

Ginnyrose, you do not have to answer any of my questions. I would simply suggest that even if Dr King was guilty of what you accused him of here in this forum, and even if he did not repent which you suggested(not sure why a Christian would not want to think the best of someone)his crime would pale into insignificance in comparison to the crimes perpetrated against African Americans by a society of "whites." Surey you would agree with that? And if that is true, then yes, repentence and forgiveness is vital. If brothers and sisters in Christ cannot be color-blind, then what hope is there for the rest of the nation?

This is a topical subject since Barack Obama could very possibly be our next President. It is vital that we in the Christian community shine as a light in the darkness against all forms of racism, whether it is White folk hating Black folk, or Black folk hating White folk. Bitterness is an absolute killer for any Christian. I may be wrong, but I sensed some bitterness in Ginnyrose when she speaks of Dr King, forgive me sister if I am wrong. EJG, you must protect your heart my friend. Even if your worse fears were realized and Ginnyrose was a racist, what did the Lord teach us to do from the sermon on the mount? We must love our enemies and do good to them that despitefully use us. I am not suggesting for a moment that Ginnyrose is a racist , just for the record.

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/

Ginny is entitled to express her views on MLK here just as much as you are allowed to assert the opposite with impunity. Why are we such loose cannons with the word "pharisee"? I have seen this word a dozen times already this week alone in here, and each time it is aimed at another brother or sister. 98% of the time it is used as an empty allegation or as an offensive weapon for a person whose feelings and pride are hurt, whose deep-seated convictions are challenged, and more often than not it indicts the one who speaks it rather than the one it is directed at. If you wish to rebuff the convictions she holds, please do your homework first and then come back with the contrary evidence. Can you do that?

Even the mention of MLK is, unfortunately, divisive.

One of the things that often happens in discussions like this is that certain people are entitled to speak all they want, and proclaim their opinions... and certain people are told to shut up and that their opinions are not entitled to be heard.

This is why I will rarely get into a discussion about race... especially with folks who dont know anything about me. As I said in a previous post, being a southerner sometimes automatically gets me labeled a racist by those living outside the south. "Oh, you're from the south? You must be a Klan member!"

Or they think that "Hee Haw" was reality TV about life in the south.

A Scotsman living in Kansas can not understand the deep seated, preconceived notions that Americans in one region have about Americans in another region.

And I admit it, I do the same thing. If I meet someone from NYC I have this notion in my mind about what they are like, and what they think.

White, black, purple or green. I dont care what color your skin is, you make something of yourself and dont blame other people or races when you fail. Thats called being an American.

(And yes, for the "theologians" who will jump on my comment "make something of yourself", obviously we should do so under the guidance and power of God)

I have my opinions on MLK... and I think many would be surprised by them. But I wonder what in the world a discussion about MLK has to do with the purpose of this forum?

Krispy

Krispy

My post was a perfectly legitimate one. Please re-read. Now if there are certain people who are bitter about Dr King, that too is a legitmate subject. Bitterness is a spiritual killer, regardless of the rights or wrongs of of the matter.

As far as a Scotsman not being able to understand deep seated pre-concieved notions of one region of America for another, well that just does not make any sense. As a Scotsman I understand what it means to be judged by the mere fact of the geographical location of your birth. But lets suppose your point is correct, then what you are saying is that a white person cannot possibly understand the experiece of a black person in the south, you may have a point.

When we look at the twelve disciples, we see an extremly diverse group of people. Yet, they were united by the Holy Spirit. That should be our model. Instead of having pride in coming from the "North," or the "South," we should have pride in belonging to Jesus. Our total identity should be in the fact that we are a brotherhood that knows no bounderies, a universal brotherhood. Lets leave the partisan geographical nonsense to the world, let us be otherworldy and peculiar and maybe then we could be a model for the world.

Just for your information Krispy, in Great Britain I came from the North. The English still do not care for "Northeners," and my own people, in general, cannot stand the southeners. This has been going on for almost 1000 years. South hated North, and North hated South where I came from, long before America , as a nation, existed, so yes I understand all too well. I undesrtand that both groups are extremely proud of where they come from and it has caused wars for centuries. Let us, as Christians, elevate ourselves , transcend petty geographical pride and be lovers of all people........Frank

Even tho I referred to you in my post, the post itself was not directed at you. I can understand why you would take it personally, and I apologize.

I certainly have no bitterness toward MLK. Why should I? I didnt know him. I was born 1 year before he was murdered, so I missed the entire Civil Rights Movement.

What I know of him, his message of non-violent civil protest was a good one. I dont know enough about his theology to make a call on that one. I do know that he disqualified himself from the ministry by his many moral failings (sins)... but it has no effect on me in any way.

So please understand, I'm simply saying what one of our moderators here has said... it is wrong for some here to think they can say anything they want because they are either black or whatever color they may be... and tell someone else they cant voice their opinion because they are of another race.

And for the record, brother... I am Scottish as well. I'm also Irish. And German. And *gasp!* American Indian (Cherokee). So yea, I know a little bit about what it's like to be of a particular race of people who were oppressed. But ya know what? My ancestors decided not to let that be an excuse, and rose above it... and handed that tradition down to me.

Krispy

Ginnyrose asks two questions of me and I will answer her questions.

Question #1. "how can you justify allowing an adulterer to lead the 'church'? The Scriptures are plain when it says "to not let be named once among you."

Answer...I never justified anyone or talked about anyone leading a "church." I talked about a man who was involved in the Civil rights movement whom I greatly admired for his courage and conviction. When was the last time your house was bombed by the KKK Ginnyrose?

Question #2 "Are you not being partial when you are quick to defrock a white man for sleeping around but then look the other way when he is black? Is God partial?

Answer...I have no idea what you are talking about sister.

Comment....I never called you a racist. I did ask your opinion on Aparthied. I did ask your opinion on Federal troops being called in to protect children. I did ask you where were the Christians during this time frame. I did ask you why the churches were segragated. Again, if it is something that you do not want to answer, that is fine. My post was never about racism, it was about dying to the flesh...........Frank

Paul West,

I am not a loose cannon with the word!

This entire blog is slowly becoming an abomination

And it isnt about a right to speak, it is how we speak and what we say,

TOO of many of the people here at SI listen to two or three sermons and read a few books, then they have arrived with Christ....

Your hearts are disgraceful, yes, I said it becuz it is not hard to discover or to see exactly where many of you come from with your responses and remarks.

Paul West, go back to the origination of this thread, then here comes GinnyRose with ignorant, negative, and un-needed comments.

I responded with preachparsly on a thread where he spoke and mentioned about blogging to the shame of God. All of the un-needed comments they arent uplifting, they arent pleasant, they arent exhorting.

Rebuke in PRIVATE, tell people off like the genral populus does in private, Stop thinking that everyone has a right to begin LOOSELY, your word PaulWEST, for others to carelessly spread through the atmosphere of SI.

I am a man that has always called things like I see it
That has been the ministry God has given me in life, but I understand how this too can be extreme if I allow it. But I will not sit around this site that I once thought was really wonderful, and allow 2 out of three bloggers or responders sound off as haters, yes haters!

BUILD UP, EDIFY, rebuke in private becuz there just might be a chance that the one offering such hideous comments as MLK being an adulterer that may indeed be wrong....

Certain things arent appropriate period when it comes to DEFENDING ONES OWN COMMENTS OR FEELINGS. IT ALL STINKS... JUST PHARASEES STUNK and STILL STINK, even if I IT PERTAINS TO ME, NO ONE IS EXEMPT...........

Speak that which you know and what you have seen! Not heard or insinuated........

This is my position on this sites blogging and the manner in which it is carried out

And Appolus ,

My point exactly, the questions u posed and the manner in which u began the thread was simply "what a man,what a leader", of course I am writing it in different words, let me add.

My issue is that we all know and have heard about opinions, , but when one makes definitive statements such as majority here at SI not to mention when others want to be right and express their feelings, there needs to be FACTS and let me say, I did not call anyone racist, I am just clearing that up.....

I just think our hearts here Si are so opinionated, pessimistic, negative, and personally justifying to our own partial feelings. All I am saying address people with rebukes and corrections in PRIVATE or otherwise get the persons consent b4 u SLAM them with a SELF_RIGHTEOUS comment, that is just that, righteous in perspective to how one feels about a person, place, thing or issue!

Hearts here need to be cleansed, and I am not on "cleansed heart patrol", but it is awful when I listen and get involved in such rhetoric, this has become worse than the presidential candidacy, practically in most thread I read, there is something condescending........ It stinks!!!!!!!

I will finish by stating this, OPINIONS are one thing, and they can be moderated and expressed properly, but we should not be here to carelessly tear one another down due to the agenda, the justifying of our feelings or position!!!!!!

So, Brothers and Sisters

This is why the case of dealing with un-saved souls is null in void when it comes to the church's understanding.

The church needs to be terribly saved, NOW, not tommorrow

I/ WE do not need someone in the church to tell me how they have been in the presence of God( as though they r boasting), how they have this or that with God....
There is no revival, there is no help in sight because it starts right here in our own personal hearts on a daily basis,

Let us get to know God through Jesus Christ, this is my point, many of the posts and intent and heart at which we respond on this site spells out exactly what our condition is, and why revival is not here..

Some of you will still attempt to justify your responses, please let Christ justify, be justified, do not justify.

This is also why we will miss the true prophets when they appear or at least we will be prone to missing their message, it is bcuz we at heart already feel as though we know.....

EJG

My point to you brother was not that Ginnyrose was a racist. My point was the point of the original post. Even if you come across a racist, you should love them, not lash out. It is perfectly fine, in my opinion, to ask questions.

When we ask questions, our answers will show others where we are coming from and then they can make up their own minds. Suppose you are right and people are hateful? What would Jesus have us do with hateful people?

When you have a forum, a place for discussion, then you will have people of differing opinions. I agree with you about the state of the Chruch, I agree that we need revival, but we first need to be personally revived. So we agree on that.

If you have a ministry of telling people how it is, a straight shooter, then you must also have love. Love and truth is the power of the Lord. Truth delivered without love can destroy, truth and love combined is the most powerful weapon that we have........Brother Frank

all of us Paul West are in need, EVEN you,

it describes this entire site, no one is boasting, there we go again, this is exactly what I( am talking about, and I am not inclined to care whether u like my forthrightness or not! u can not like something but others cant?

Bro West, I have been a christian for a while so I am not just saying something just to be heard this is what has been experienced here, and by the way,I am not the only one who expresses and feels this way.

Also, I am not tryin to research this or research that to prove someone wrong, this is tiresome, to go bakc and forth with saints, this isn't good. Nevertheless bro west, since u feel that I am this and wrong with that, t I am truly sorrowful that it is understood this way by yourself a moderator..

Bro Appolus,

Love comes in tenderness and in harshness,

I have children and a wife, and loves comes across as it should, nevertheless it and can still be God's perfect love......

And the Lord chastens them whom he loves bro, I am just specifying bro that love is love when our intent is of love....

I believe love is about straight shooting whether it hurts or not, I have been terribly rebuked b4, and I am not against it! I believe God does exactly the same,

everything of love cant be tender and kind, it must be rebuking, but it should convict the soul, but if the soul is stuck on its own self, then it will never see what is being said......

I am sure we can all look back and see when we didn't want to see something, and after time God showed us that the others or other people that tried to correct us were right!

We must be willing to understand that also!

I am not buliding or uplifting myself in ANY way

Paul West,

people can sat, state or mention ignorant things, the things they dont know of a truth but bcuz they heard it, That is what makes it ignorant, it is without proper dissemination of knowledge. I do and have done this to congregants b4, and they do appreciate it whether at the moment or later......

knowledege

again brother west, I am not attempting to make a case or justify the case, I am expressing my true feelings only with no needed reply as to whether it is a case or not,

u can call me temperamental if u like, and maybe after all the temperamental, biting, and vicious words of others not even pertaining to me only just in general, and i am sure you have checked already the other posts, it needs a response , a response that goes much further than any of mine....

Hi Ginnyrose

I appreciate the time that you took to reply to my post. I think they were a little muddled. You said "Are you not being partial when you are quick to defrock a white man for sleeping around but then look the other way when he is black? Is God partial?"

Of course I have defrocked no one :) You must direct that comment to whoever made it, you cannot take what others have said and then charge me with it.

I will let your comments stand for others to read. I personally feel that the issue I raised in my post was lost because of the attacks on Dr King. We must learn to die to ourselves, and this issue is a very fleshly issue.

I also feel that there would be no purpose in continuing the dialogue with Ginnyrose. So, since none of this is edifying and no one seems to be learing anything, perhaps this post should just slip away. Unless of course anyone would like to comment on my actual post and issues that I actually raised:)

May the Lord open the hearts of ALL who are racially insensitive and blind to the pain and hurt of others, on this I think we may all agree..............Frank

Hi Destinysweet.....I enjoyed your comments and the love and the grace in which you shared them. Yes God uses imperfect vehicles for His purposes, and in some ways, in many ways, we all fall short of His glory. As I read your post, I thought about George MacDonald. Here is a man many on this post will be familiar with. Apparently he was C.S. Lewis's inspiration. I loved the way this man wrote, his testimony is wonderful, yet he was convinced that hell was not eternal. I do believe in an eternal hell and I in no way want start a debate on that, I just wanted to confirm what you are saying destinysweet that a man can be far from perfect but still be used of God..........Frank

It seems to me that The Civil Rights movement is what it's name implies, a constitutional, or, political movement. Thank God for America, and the unalienable rights established.

Socialism and the far left were up to their necks in this movement, and still are.[entitlements, Clintons] MLK was a leader, who's murder lifted him to martyr status, and in the end, may have done more to further his cause, than his life; IE., to correct social injustice via passive nonviolent protest. Gandhi was the prince of this strategy, and was , in the grand scale of things, monumentally more effective. He also attained martyr status.

Jesse Jackson seemed to be the heir-apparent to King. I hope you can see, that he is also steeped in the political arena.[his run for president, endorsements, etc.] There is a tendency to exalt King as a symbol, a hero, and to thwart or oppose that, is a very politically incorrect thing to do.

His focus and war on such on a cruel and demonic thing as Racism has been confused with his motives. His motives were political, not spiritual. If they were Spiritual, he would have preached Christ crucified the hope of glory, rather than civil disobedience.[in the fashion of Gandhi].

History has addressed his moral failures. We all have had those. We must judge the fruit of a man's life in terms of holiness and in relationship to The King, Jesus, and His Kingdom, not his accomplishments against social injustice.

I honestly cannot tell if he was born again, either by letters or speech. I hope so. Gandhi, without doubt, was not. He was an elegant social engineer.

Hi brothertom, I appreciate your comments, you do realize that the comment is totaly off subject. A reading of the actual post will show you that there was no mention of Dr Kings spiritual status. And I think that is what gives rise to the belief of some that to say the least, comments like these are racially insensitive.

If you read my post, then one would have to actually go out of their way to critisize Dr King, and this I suspect, raises some questions as to the neutrality of those who do so. Here is a quote from your comment brothertom...

"His focus and war on such on a cruel and demonic thing as Racism has been confused with his motives. His motives were political, not spiritual. If they were Spiritual, he would have preached Christ crucified the hope of glory, rather than civil disobedience.[in the fashion of Gandhi]."

Can I ask you your opinion on President Bush? What he has done for the last seven years, are they politically motivated or spiritually? Are you saying by the comments that you made on Dr King, that if a man is in the political arena, and he does not , from his platform, raise up the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, and clearly tell the world that all other Gods are false, and only one path leads to heaven, then he is supect as a Christian and has no business being called one in the first place? And you also said

"Socialism and the far left were up to their necks in this movement, and still are.[entitlements, Clintons]" So, I am assuming from your comments that this is a negative thing? And that if it were a capitilist involvment from the far right, then God would aprove of that?

The Christian community, for at least the last deacade, have been involved in politics, as a way to change this country,up to their eyeballs. If you are consistant with your critisism of those on the right, idealogues and all, as you are with those on the left, then I would say that you were unbiased in your comments.

Let me just state for the record, since we are keeping it real, that I have the "I have a dream," speech up on my wall. I consider it to be a brilliant speech, but not a Christian one. If you had ultimate faith in the goodness of mankind and that there would be one day when we could all walk hand in hand, despite our differences, outside of Jesus, then I would say that you were a utopian dreamer.

Yet consider the utopian worldliness of Jefferson when he talks about the rights of pursuing happiness ","Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" I am sure you would not argue that this is the teaching of Scripture that we pursue happiness and that God has given us an "inalienable," right to it? Neither are we taught by scripture that we have the right to be politicaly free, yet I would imagine that you hold these words dear, because they did actually change the world for the better, ultimately. I could argue the very same for Dr Kings words. That while they were utopian in nature, they did give people something to strive towards, the people of the world, just as the constitution did, which is a secular document.

If I had to have a dream, it would not be such a bad dream to think of a day when all of Gods children would be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin. If I had a dream for the Christians of this country I would dream that they would be a banner of love , reaching out to the very people that Jesus died for. Whether that be those on the far left, those on the far right, homosexuals, liberals, democrats , Clintons whoever your favorite politican of talk show host has demonized, for politcal reason, over the last couple of decades. Let us be about our Fathers business. Reconcilliation is the business of the Father. He reconciles us to Himself, He has called us to the ministry of reconcillaition, not diviseness and partisan politics which as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, will quench the Holy Spirit.................Frank

Frank: Firstly I read your post, and my understanding of the forum Is to discuss and dialogue, and that means I may disagree. In this case however, I am being accused of a form of racism, because of it.

Do you actually believe that because I said that his objective was political, IE, social change because of injustice, that I was CRITICIZING MLK?

"that gives rise, to some, to say the least that comments like these are RACIALLY INSENSITIVE"

"questions about neutrality", as per whether or not I'm racist?"

Is this your thinking about those who disagree with you? Character assassination, or belittling?

MLK was a leader in the CIVIL RIGHTS movement. That's the constitution, if you remember. It was a social reform movement, via politics!

Then you leap to the conclusion that I must be a right winger, [probably a racially tainted one.] "Give me your opinion in President Bush",," etc. _______He was never a Christian. He portrayed himself to be, to get elected. That's my opinion. I won't waste time here explaining.

THEN, "IF it were a capitalist movement from the far right, would God approve of that?"

Where do you get this stuff? Do you always react and accuse, to bolster your statements , when one may disagree?

The answer is NO! NO! Your assuming that because I believe MLK was involved in a social movement, along with other, maybe more radical socialists, that I must be a Right wing Capitalist! What a gem.

Jesus is Lord. Part two to follow that I don't "get timed."

You fondly talked about "the pursuit of happiness being taught in scripture", and "God has given us an unalienable RIGHT to it. I beg to differ. the scripture teaches us to lay DOWN our rights, so that We could be possessed of the rights and rewards of the LAMB, JESUS!

Happiness is fleeting, and a passing illusion. Peace is Heaven's commodity. that will never pass. READ HEBREWS 11.

Do you actually believe that Jefferson's secular humanism "changed the world for the better?"

You assume that I have a favorite talk show host, Right Wing, of course, because "I demonize the Clinton's" Where does this logic come from? Do you see that I might dislike the Clinton's because of their ANTI-CHRIST stands against the unborn, the family, and Godly morality.

This entire last paragraph in your response is double talk; Honey laced rhetoric that insinuates that you must be on God's side, because the father's business is reconciliation, after all. [I've actually ministered in the CASTRO, full time, to the homosexuals, and by grace, saw some fruit] you insinuate that it is "God's business" to reach out to "liberals, democrats, Clinton's". This is so laced with "peace at any cost", socialist ideas, that it is astounding to me. As a believing Christian, you believe that God is calling you to reconcile to the Clinton's?? This is not the God of the bible, you speak of.

God's business is not to bring peace! "Do not think that I come to bring peace, No! but DIVISION!" Do you know who said that? Do you believe Him?

Do not confuse "divisiveness" with anti-"reconciliation". God always has, and always will divide. That is what true light does.

He will separate the holy from the profane, always.

And your right. The Holy Spirit will "always be quenched".. by humanist partisan's, until the end.

A note to the moderators: In view of recent controversy, I hesitated to post this, for obvious reasons. I wonder about the glory to Jesus in it all. My reason , though, is that some political dialogue must sometimes slip into threads, and when a political figure such as MLK is opened as a forum, the more so.

There is a political agenda that grows more and more into unity with the anti-christs spirits. This spirit has claimed the lives of more wars combined, ever, in the 20th century, and hates every iota of the gospel, and the Lord Jesus, so thereby i addressed this post. I am speaking of course, of Socialism, embodied in the former USSR, and China, and alive and well in Europe, and yes, even here.

I like MLK. To assess his agenda, and then to be attacked and accused because of it, to me , is another issue. I am not opposed to appolus, yet, his response left room to question his motives, also. These things must be rightly divided....Pleas pm me if you desire, and i will listen, thanks, tom

Brothertom writes..........."
You fondly talked about "the pursuit of happiness being taught in scripture", and "God has given us an unalienable RIGHT to it. I beg to differ. the scripture teaches us to lay DOWN our rights, so that We could be possessed of the rights and rewards of the LAMB, JESUS!"

Can I use that as an example of people who simply do not read what is written and exposes the heart of the writer to pick fault. Here is what I actually wrote.........."Yet consider the utopian worldliness of Jefferson when he talks about the rights of pursuing happiness ","Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" I am sure you would not argue that this is the teaching of Scripture that we pursue happiness and that God has given us an "inalienable," right to it? Neither are we taught by scripture that we have the right to be politicaly free."

Can you see how brothertoms comments have no actual regard to what I said? I personally asked people to no longer comment on this post, I also suggested that this post should fade away because it was bearing no fruit. I also suggested that the post was hijacked by people who had no liking for Dr King and that my post was actually about the sermon on the mount and the glorious revoltuion that Jesus had brought to mankind. I stand by all of those comments and again ask people not to write and tell others the motivations of a mans heart, no one knows that, only God...........Frank

PS...This post should fade away

hello dear brother appolus

I will absolutely affirm that rights in Christ have and need to be relinquished in order for HIm to be wholly operative in our lives.

Rights cause conflict with the power and freedom that God gives through HIS dear Son