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Christian Life and Enjoyment

M
MrReader

Hello friends,

I've been lurking on these forums for several months have enjoyed my time here. I like to learn and try not to impose my opinions where they aren't required. I would much rather let the Word speak for itself.

After all of my reading here, I have one question that I've not seen anyone ask or answer and it was enough to get me out of the woodwork to ask it. :-)

My question is very sincere and I am interested in knowing the truth.

There is a lot of talk about revival, the seriousness of the state of the world, Jesus's return and living humbly, respectfully and seriously before the Lord. I firmly believe this, too. We have a job to do here. We are here for His pleasure and to do His will and I want to accomplish that above all else.

Here's where my question comes in. How do you feel about fun? About our dreams as human beings? About things we would like to do? From the conversations I've seen here, it would lead someone just lurking to think that we have to be somber monks and never laugh or fulfill a dream we have to own a home or become a tailor or take a vacation to Disney World.

Isn't it part of God's plan for us to enjoy ourselves, here, as well? I'm not talking about living for ourselves. I'm talking about living for God and fulfilling His will for our lives, but to also not neglect our own desires or emotions that don't conflict with His for us.

I'm conflicted by this due to this forum. I want to please God and live a life that honors Him, but did He create me to deny everything about me? If I want to write a novel and have it become a best seller, is this a bad thing? If I want to leave my state and move to another so I can enjoy different climate and surroundings, is this wrong?

I wanted to ask these things because I think it's an important question to address here, based on the serious tone of these forums. This is not a challenge, in any way. I utterly respect and appreciate these forums and all they offer! They benefit my life and I'm very appreciative! I am asking my questions honestly and sincerely and would like as much feedback from people as possible. Thanks.

S
sermonindex

but did He create me to deny everything about me?

[i]Luke 9:23-25 - 'Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.

What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?'[/i]

W
Warrior4Jah

Dear brother!

It might be that I would rather have my eyes towards fun and pleasure too much then towards God. Where is my desire to draw closer and closer to Him then rather do something fun or enjoy? (God should be my main source of enjoyment!)

[b]1 Tim 4:1-4 (ASV)[/b]
1 God's Spirit clearly says that in the last days many people will turn from their faith. They will be fooled by evil spirits and by teachings that come from demons. 2 They will also be fooled by the false claims of liars whose consciences have lost all feeling. These liars 3 will forbid people to marry or to eat certain foods. But God created these foods to be eaten with thankful hearts by his followers who know the truth. 4 Everything God created is good. And if you give thanks, you may eat anything. 5 What God has said and your prayer will make it fit to eat.

But its also so that God made things for our enjoyment. Who am I too not take the things the Lord give with all thanks? (but also take bitter things with thanksgiving!)

Perhaps its not that enjoying and 'fun' is wrong, but its simply trying to 'enjoy life' without God is wrong.

I remember a sermon from Paul Washer where his wife would love to have certain trinkets where Paul would think that those would be trivial. The Lord gave her this while one would not think that it would benefit the gospel. :-)

[edit] I should add that I am fairly untested at the bitter things, hopefully I am able to give thanks to the Lord even then!

S
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richardf wrote:
but did He create me to deny everything about me?

[i]Luke 9:23-25 - 'Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.

What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?'[/i]

Amen!

M
MrReader

Thank you both for responding. I hope more will take up this conversation because it's not so cut and dry.

I appreciate the scripture you posted, richardf, but I don't think the answer can be as simple as posting a scripture. I've already stated that denying ourselves is a requirement. But, I don't know of any scripture that says "Thou shalt not enjoy thy time on the earth."

If we are to deny pleasure (and I hope I don't have to clarify that I do mean proper pleasures) of all kind in order to "deny ourselves" and not be part of this world, then it would stand to reason that we would deny all of the world's ways. Going to work, for example. Why would we have the drudgeries of this earth placed upon us but denied all pleasure and enjoyment? That's what I don't understand. Wouldn't the Bible be more specific on this if that were the case?

Believe me, I'm not trying to justify having a grand old time. I'm just trying to find some balance in this. If I have a desire in me to become a doctor, some would say that may be what God wants me to become to serve Him. But, what if I have a desire to become a tailor, or an author, or an antique store owner? Do I deny this desire?

How about when it comes to "entertainment." There [i]are[/i] decent movies, are these to be denied? Taking vacations? Wanting to move to another state/city/country, etc.,?

How do we balance these? Prayer, yes. But I think that's too pat of an answer as well.

Again, I'm not trying to find a "clause" to do the things [i]I[/i] want to do. I want to know [i]the truth[/i] and my motives are sincere. It's just that sometimes, conversations here can be so very sombre that it doesn't seem to leave room for an ounce of anything else.

Thank you for your patience.

S
sermonindex

Is it OK to have fun and enjoy life?

God did make the Aardvark, so He has a sense of humor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark

bub

S
sermonindex

Hi MrReader,

We've had threads on this topic before. I'll try to find a link for you, as their titles are various.

"Thou shalt not enjoy thy time on the earth."
I'm with Richard. Here's some more scripture. But, I'm not saying the Christian life is miserable. In fact, according to the hymnwriter 'Heaven above is softer blue/ Earth around is sweeter green/ Something lives in every hue/ Christless eyes have never seen/ Birds with gladder songs o’erflow/ Flowers with deeper beauties shine/ Since I know, as now I know/ I am His, and He is mine.'

But, the permission to enjoy, comes from within the confines of obedience to the will of God. And this should not be a problem.

[color=6633FF]Psalm 37
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD;
and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;
trust also in him; and he shall bring [i]it[/i] to pass.[/color]
{Commit...: Heb. Roll thy way upon}
[color=6633FF]6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light,
and thy judgment as the noonday.
7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:
fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.[/color]
{Rest = be silent to}


[color=6633FF]Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
[i]being[/i] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. [/color]


Brother, if God tells you to go to Disney World, you better go in obedience, even if it makes you reduce your food bill, give up your newspaper and cut down on your giving at church. But, if He doesn't give you liberty to exercise your stewardship of His money in that way, you better not go.

Enjoy!

There is no better place to be, than the centre of God's will.

:-)


T
tjservant

I want to know the truth and my motives are sincere

I think contentment may play a part in this. Do the things I desire to achieve, possess, or simply use play a part in my being content? Can I have joy without them? Where does my joy come from?

For me, becoming a Christian set me free from many of my old desires. I am now quite happy and content to have very little as far as possessions and status go.

As for fun…this may be different for everybody. I personally love raising plants and gardening. Seeing God at work in creation is something that really satisfies me and I get lots of great sermon and teaching materiel to boot.

I also spend lots of time with my niece and nephew. Little boys are not born knowing how to build paper airplanes. My family is precious to me. I love them…they love me…they make me laugh. I have a tremendous amount of fun with my family.

When I was younger I used to tap my feet and wiggle around, I just couldn’t sit still. I can now sit out on the deck and enjoy God for hours without moving a muscle. I have a peace and contentment that is beyond all understanding.

I once spent a great deal of time designing house plans for my dream home. I no longer do this, for I know there is a mansion waiting for me in glory. My planning is now focused on storing up treasure in Heaven. My Earthly desires have changed. I now wonder what would make Him happy. Seeking His will, in and of its self, brings great joy to me.

I would add that if God told me to build a house or go see Mickey Mouse I would start tomorrow, but on the other hand I am keenly aware that this is not my home. I just don’t care about this place (Earth) like I used to.

It’s kind of funny. The more I quit caring about this life and my happiness…the more I enjoy it.

Just rambling...

G
ginnyrose

Reader,

I think you have gotten some good answers to your question and am not sure I can add a whole lot but will share my understanding of this issue.

Consider Pro 17:22: "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones." A merry heart - what does it look like in reality? Is it not one that is driven by delight? By joy? one that enjoys life? AMong the most interesting and fun people I know were preachers who loved the LORD but also had a fantastic sense of humor! My preacher-grandfather was among them. He loved laughter and all his offspring/descendants are great at it, me included.

The ability to laugh comes from a heart that is at peace with the world and people, one who accepts the foibles of life and laughs. A merry heart knows what is serious and should be treated as such. But a serious heart also knows what things are trivial and are worthy of being laughed at. Having said all this, let me assure you our fun should be in line with the Scriptures' command to love and be considerate of each other, including our fun, our jokes. (Sure! I can laugh at the old joke of a junk yard being a woman's parking lot, but mind if I say that what happens to a male when he balds? His hair goes underground and grows out of his nose and ears? How do I know? Why, I periodically give my husband haircuts ...)

About occupation. Did you ever think about Paul, that great warrior for God who was a tentmaker? Or, Lydia, the merchant? Nowhere do we read where people abandoned their occupations after they came to the LORD. 1Timothy 5:8: "But if any provide not for, his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." From this scripture we see how a man is expected to provide for his household and failure to do so makes him worse then an infidel. And the women are to care for the house as per Titus 2.

About enjoying things - I would like to share a testimony for whatever it is worth - might not apply to all, but this is what happened to me.

Our 25 YO daughter had just died of cancer and after this happened, I lost all my appetite for food. My DH worked to make me eat. Of course, my appetite came back, but another thing that completely left me was interest in 'things'. I cared not a twit for anything. Oh, sure I went about my duties that was required to sustain life as a mother and wife. In the meantime, God was at work to bring me back to living. He started by giving me a desire for some art we had seen displayed at a religious bookstore. It was expensive and we just do not spend money for frivolous things. But the desire was growing that I "wanted those pictures." I prayed about it and then asked my DH about buying one and he said "go ahead'. Wow! He was giving me the green-light to proceed. I was so delighted and then I wondered which one I should choose, I wanted both but no way could I afford both of them. I asked the LORD for wisdom in making this choice. Off to the city I went trying to figure out which one I like the best and would give me the most comfort. I went to this store, found they had sold both but in talking to the owner I told her what I was looking for and how I really wanted both but could not afford them. And you know what she did? She offered to sell me the prints only and then told me to get them framed privately, that this would be less money! I could hardly believe my good fortune! God had made a way where I could get both prints, get them framed for a little more money then one would have cost. As time went on, these pictures have ministered so much to me and others as well. It was the beginning of God leading me to take an interest in things, in life and go on. Today I still do not have an obsessive interest in things and I take this to be God ordained. And I am content.

Now what were the titles of the art? Blackshear's "Watchers in the Night" and William Hallmarks' pic of the Lion with the lamb and dove resting on his leg.

The bottom line in my opinion is that all should be done to the honor and glory of God and in doing so we need to have a cheerful spirit, a joyful spirit, one that will not get bent out of shape when things go wrong, but accept these things as normal and perhaps God will help you to see the humor in it and then laugh.

My opinion for whatever it is worth.

ginnyrose

PS: BTW: I am told that a person who laughs a lot is a healthy person! And I have also observed that the younger generation does not know how to laugh! :-(

L
LoveHim

brother mr reader, there are a few verses i would like to share to add to this discussion.

colossians 2:20-23
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

colossians 3:15-17
15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

romans 14:17
17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

matthew 11:18-29
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' [b]But wisdom is proved right by her actions.[/b]"

proverbs 9:10
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

brother mr reader, the answer is truly [b]"fear the Lord"[/b]. i know that may not seem to really answer your questions, but brother allow the Lord to show you that all we truly need is to fear Him. as we fear Him, we will live a life that is true, pure, right, holy and pleasing in His sight. we should not subject everyone to our own convictions when it comes to "matters of the heart", but to seek Him and let His Spirit show us what is right and true in our lives. if we really "fear Him", then we will walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

so should i or anyone else give you a list of can do's or can't do's?? i hope not. legalism never honors God, but listening to His voice and living our lives in reverence and veneration unto Him will lead us in His way everlasting.

hope it helps brother,
phil


S
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ginnyrose,

Good post, sis. :-)

S
sermonindex

I appreciate the scripture you posted, richardf, but I don't think the answer can be as simple as posting a scripture.

Brother,

the more I think about this, the harder it is for me to agree.

From experience, we live in days where Christians aren't content with what the Bible says, and we aren't content with simply reading a Scripture and believing it.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 - [i]'All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.'[/i]


[i]All Scripture is God-breathed.[/i] Isn't this enough?

M
MrReader

Again, I do appreciate all of your responses. I know they come from hearts of caring and God's love.

I'm just afraid I'm not making my question clear. Personally, I have no desire to go to Disney World. The items I stated were just examples. I'm not seeking enjoyment. I love the Lord and I want nothing more to please and obey Him. If He asked me to move to Timbuktu to collect wild beetles, I would do it rejoicing!

But, through a couple of YOUR examples, my question can perhaps be made more clear.

ginnyrose had her heart set on two paintings. (And I'm so glad the Father worked out a way for you to get both! From my experience, He tends to work that way!) But, would you have told ginnyrose that her desire for those paintings was just materialism and she should deny this for herself?

tjservant mentioned that he used to enjoy designing his dream home, but gave it up because of the mansion he'll have in heaven. Does this mean that he shouldn't dream of having a home on the earth?

I'm not a musician, but if a Christian was a talented musician (or writer, or artist) should they never pursue making a CD, publishing a book or selling a painting because this is considered a worldly thing?

If a young Christian dreams of being a pilot, should she deny this?

Do you see what I'm asking? What I'm asking isn't about [i]not[/i] being content, it's not about [i]seeking[/i] pleasure. It's about being human beings, designed by God and placed on this earth, that He designed, for a time. I just have a hard time believing that God would place us here only to ask us to deny everything about it and be content with reading the Word or watching a sunset.

We have to work or we won't eat. That's biblical. Is it wrong to pursue a career that we long for? And, once we begin working, is it wrong to want a vacation? After all, it's not healthy to work [i]all the time[/i].

This is what I'm asking. I hope it's more clear now. If not, I'm very sorry. I don't know how to make it more clear than this.

S
sermonindex

My brothers and sisters, we r to appreciate and care for the fun or sociality that God has allowed in life, but we r not to "love pleasure more than loving God.

Now here is the dilemma, what normally happens the carnal or natural man is this;

1. He doesnt have the "cut off" switch to keep these things to a minimum thereby one can ultimately become consumed with this type of liberty if u will. ultimately "putting God at the bottom of his/her list.

2. Truly my friends, after we have been in God's presence, and truly with God in worshipful bliss as Moses and many of the other patriarchs or Church giants, then what is earthly pleasure compared to this type of pleasure?
I ask that question, but many may not be ABLE to answer that bcuz some might not understand such intimacy and pleasure...
The King said " in Gods presence there is fullness of joy and pleasures at thy right hand".

So brothers and sisters, i am not trying to explain this with our "so spiritual heads up the air, but in reality, do we love pleasure or do we love God enough not to allow pleasures to CONSUME us and that is the key word.

What consumes or has u? Bcuz it will cause u NOT to have Christ! BOTTOM LINE

Christ or Pleasure?

Now, if we have little ones than we must use the God given wisdom to simply redeem the time as to what is or isn't appropriate for our lives or theirs....... Let ones moderation be made known unto men..... Do what u have to do with/ in moderation and with Understanding..

Also, confer with the Heavenly father with these issues and he Will allow for his peace in this and every other issue that we truly want to hear from HIM. Now, if u really do not want His answer then dont ask HIM, that is how I understand, but if u want HIS answer/wisdom, then talk to GOD from ur heart even on this issue......

peace in Christ


S
sermonindex


MrReader asked

If a young Christian dreams of being a pilot, should she deny this?
Surely this depends on her being able-bodied and suitable for training? No-one is saying it is wrong to dream or to do\\become what God has put in your heart. But, this was not really the question you asked originally.

I would add that God has made us like Himself in that we are creative (we create, as He the Creator created us to be like Him) and this may be exactly what He wants from us.

When I was young, the Lord led me to learn touch-typing. He spoke to me clearly through someone's suggestion. It was the word of God to me. After a very brief sojourn in a solicitor's firm I was back in nursing, but I had had such a confirmation in my spirit when I began the secretarial courses that I never doubted I had done God's will. It was to be nearly twenty years before the reason for my touch-typing became clear - .... not 'work', but worship.

Amen.

Sometimes God tips us off with a seemingly impossible idea which simply will not go away. In the end, if we don't go with it, we are being disobedient, even if we have no idea where following it will take us. It might mean having an extra job to fund the exploit, but this too (or funds), God will supply as we follow hard after.

So... do you want to be a pilot but have no idea why? You imagine it is for 'fun'? But you have no idea if God is going to call you to the missionfield just before you get bored with having nowhere to fly for Him....

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Aviation_Fellowship]MAF[/url] or google Mission Aviation Fellowship

O
Onesimus4God

I so appreciate all of your responses. I think I enjoyed tjservant more than the rest. He is obviously not 25.
I thank God for my 64 years of good health. I also thank Him for His patience with me, as I pursued so many follies in my life. I looked for God in most of the wrong places. I sought to satisfy my flesh (impossible task) instead of worship and give thanks to my Holy God Who deserves my living sacrifice.
As I near the end of the trail, I look back and I realize that in all my follies, I have learned many things, especially in my failures.
It is written in His Word that we should taste and see that the Lord is good.
Oh, He cannot be other than good. He cannot be other than love, for He cannot deny Himself.
See, religion is all about learning what is good and bad and our vain pursuit of self rigteousness. But that I mean that we are continually struggling with personal effort and strength to "be a good person". Christianity is all about trusting in our God Who cannot fail, and leave the outcome to Him. Those who labor in their spirit over their concerns about if they have been bad or good have not entered into the "REST" that comes only by faith in what Christ did for us on the cross. When I place my eternal hope in what He did for me, not only am I saved, not only are my sins washed away forever, but I have His righteousness bestowed upon me. Oh there is my rest from my works. Alleluia, glory be to God for His victory over my sin. Bless His Holy Name forever and ever amen. Paul says we are saved to the uttermost. That means that we cannot be more saved than we are. Therefore, I can rest. Alleluia!
Solomon said, and I believe, that everything under the sun is vanity. See, we live in this world, but we are not of this world. Would you like to talk about joy, happiness and real contentment?
Being used of God to touch or bless another, is the greatest thrill a human being can experience. If that touch or blessing leads to changing the eternal consequences of another, oh my, what could be better than that. It will make your cup run over.
Also, when we abandon the cares of religion, and begin to pursue God, guess what? We find the Holy One Who alone can flood the soul with His glory. Paul said if we draw near to God, GOD DRAWS NEAR TO US!!!!! He changes the desires of our hearts from foolishness to burning love and the desire to obey Him. It's not something I have to do or learn.
I don't know about you, friend. But at times in my life, God has opened up the vail of heaven and let just a smiggen of His glory flood into my soul. It is joy unspeakable. I could never find the words to express the splendor that occurs when that happens. I know of nothing that brings forth so much joy and heart felt happiness. Glory to God.
I shall for all eternity remember the first time it occured. Oh my, I wept and wept and worshiped, real worship. You don't need a class on worship to know what to do when God shows up inside. Worship is the natural response to His presence.
Paul said every knee should bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Why? Because in His presence, all will worship, saint and heathen alike. Charles Manson will worship the Lord Jesus Christ, before he is condemned forever, lest he repent.
I could go on and on, dear friend. But by now I hope you understand that you need not have to resort to your own understanding. God is worthy of my trust. When I'm bad, He is still good, and has my best interest at heart. I have been corrected so many times they are countless. Never has His correction been too harsh, nor underserved. Thanks be to God that He loves me that much.
Personal experience and relationship with God surpasses all the world has to give. It is joy unspeakable and full of His glory. Accept no substitutes. Seek an you shall find. Seek until you find. Cry out that you cannot stand another day without knowing Him personally by the oppotunity afforded each one of us through the great sacrifice of His Son Jesus.
Obey His commandments? Oh yes. Read John 14. Pay close attention to vs 21. Oh the promise it contains without fail. It says that if we obey His commandments (love God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves) we WILL be blessed by the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ will manifest Himself to anyone who dare obey His Word.
Now be careful with the love of God and neighbor. It's more than a warm fuzzy feeling. It is something we do. Love of God is worship. Love of neighbor is service, charity. Doing unexpected things, led by the Spirit of God for another. Don't expect Jesus to reveal Himself to you in a cloud of smoke and lightening. He can, but I dont' think that is what vs 21 is talking about. He will reveal Himself in the most unexpected way, in and through another Human Being. See, He said that when we do it to the least of these, we do it unto Him. Oh glory, dont' miss Him right under your nose. Reaching out and helping another, who cannot possibly pay you back, is where you will find Him.
Well, I could go on and on here. If you want more, just pm me and I'll share what I've learned with you, delighted to do so. But one thing more. It's very import. Paul said to follow after the Spirit, and we would not fulfill the desires of the flesh. I think this has been mentioned here already. There is no substitute to following God's leading, will, and purpose in what we say and do. Not even Jesus had this luxury, for He was continually leaving His disciples and the multitudes, and going to speak to the Father. He said He did not do or say anything, without first checking in with the throne of Heaven.
See, when you check in with God, you don't have to plan, schedule, or decide. Just keep going to God until He reveals the next step to you. Then you know whatever you do, is His will, and will succeed. Want to be successful in this life? Follow Him. Want to have joy? Get in His presence, for in His presence there is fullness of joy. Rest from your religious works, follow the Spirit, and leave the outcome to God. You may not understand, but all you need to do, is simply hold His Hand. Follow God, and you will be amazed at what He will reveal to you, for you, and through you. Alleluia, and amen.

"0"

T
tjservant

First of all, after reading your additional post I would still respond the way I did, but I will add a few things to it…by way of reply.

tjservant mentioned that he used to enjoy designing his dream home, but gave it up because of the mansion he'll have in heaven. Does this mean that he shouldn't dream of having a home on the earth?

I do not believe I was clear about the change of heart that took place in my situation. The fact of the matter is that my desires changed. I was designing and dreaming of ways to satisfy myself. My satisfaction (contentment) is no longer something I seek to provide for myself in this way

I'm not a musician, but if a Christian was a talented musician (or writer, or artist) should they never pursue making a CD, publishing a book or selling a painting because this is considered a worldly thing?

Only the person responsible will stand at the judgment seat and be asked to justify these endeavors. Motivation is the governing principle at issue here. I personally do intend to write a book.

I just have a hard time believing that God would place us here only to ask us to deny everything about it and be content with reading the Word or watching a sunset.

He asks (commands) that we deny self.

He provides all things...this includes contentment…and it is found only in Him.

M
MrReader

by dorcas on 2008/4/8 9:49:20
MrReader asked
Quote:

If a young Christian dreams of being a pilot, should she deny this?

Surely this depends on her being able-bodied and suitable for training? No-one is saying it is wrong to dream or to do\\become what God has put in your heart. But, this was not really the question you asked originally.

Actually, yes, it was.

Here's where my question comes in. How do you feel about fun? About our dreams as human beings? About things we would like to do?

Here's where my question comes in. How do you feel about fun? About our dreams as human beings? About things we would like to do?

I apologize if I didn't make it clear. Perhaps the word "fun" threw people off? Some people tend to tense up at that word and immediately come against it.

I mentioned things like moving, writing, and vacations but neglected to specifically mention jobs.

I did explain that I was talking about our dreams and desires [u][b]that do not conflict with His for us.[/b][/u] That was my qualifier to rule out the "partying" and "being selfish" and "rebellious" interpretations.

To be honest, I feel that my posts [i]are[/i] being misread that way. I did state that...

1. God is my priority. Obeying Him and denying myself is a reality.

2. That I'm not seeking "pleasure" for pleasure's sake. I'm not placing pleasure above God. I'm seeking to honor God with my life. (This is where the misreading of my post seems to be coming in.)

3.

I'm talking about living for God and fulfilling His will for our lives, but to also not neglect our own desires or emotions [u]that don't conflict with His for us.[/u]

Some of the responses don't seem to be taking points I've made into account. Rather, they appear to overlook them, treating my questions as if I'm just out to have a blast and do whatever I want to do. This simply isn't the case. I'm not trying to be unkind, but I [i]am[/i] being honest.

I gave examples. I don't want to be a pilot or a musician. They're examples of what I'm talking about. These aren't what the Bible is talking about when it says, "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?' I'm not trying to gain the whole world, I'm trying to avoid legalism and live in truth by asking if it's okay to pursue some things in my heart that don't appear to be conflicting with what I know to be God's plan for me.

If someone wanting to be a florist, an artist, an author, a teacher a lawyer, or an architect, or wants to take a vacation, is "losing yourself" then fine, count me lost. I don't see it that way. The Lord [b][i][u]does[/u][/i][/b] come first in my life. I just have not had any clear direction from the Lord about my job and I do need a vacation. There are things I would like to pursue but I [i]don't[/i] want to be disobedient, hence my questions. I have the matter in prayer already. I just wanted the counsel of Godly people who are not following the Americanized version of Christianity where anything goes. (But it's also not a case where "nothing goes.") I wanted to ask people who also understand that reading the Bible and watching sunsets don't have to be our only source of enjoyment and "fun."

M
MrReader

Thanks, again, tj.

I understood your change of heart. And I think it's great! But still, would it be wrong of you to want a house to live in? Say, for example, you're renting an apartment but you'd like to have a house to live in. Do you have to deny yourself this? If so, what about Christians who own homes already. Should they sell their homes to rent because they'll have their own home in heaven some day?

See, THIS is the side of the coin I'm trying to get at.

You said you intend to write a book. There are those who say the Bible is all we need. If you have a DESIRE to publish a book, is this part of God's COMMAND to deny yourself? After all, what can you add to God's Word? You said

He asks (commands) that we deny self.
He provides all things...this includes contentment…and it is found only in Him.

Aren't you content NOT writing a book? Again, THIS is the aspect of this that I'm trying to get at with my questions. At what point is it legalism and at what point is it obedience?

So, how is the command to deny ourselves reconciled with these issues?

Again, I'm not trying to debate or challenge anyone to anything. I'm trying to understand this on a whole, complete level, and not just the top layer of it.

S
sermonindex


Hi MrReader

How do you feel about fun? About our dreams as human beings? About things we would like to do? [b]From the conversations I've seen here, it would lead someone just lurking to think that we have to be somber monks and never laugh or fulfill a dream we have[/b] to own a home or become a tailor or take a vacation to Disney World.
Thank you for your clarification.

For me.... from what you said in your leading post.... you're right that I heard something different from what you thought you were asking. Here's why.

You separated the will of God from the 'fun' things you wondered if one could do, instead of showing that you understood any 'fun' things would be [u]part[/u] of God's will for you (by default), because you want [u]only[/u] to please Him.

We are here for His pleasure and to do His will and I want to accomplish that above all else.
The 'above all else' implies His will is in a separate category from the rest of your life.

You used words like 'sombre' and 'monks' to support your 'conflicted' feelings about how any concept of 'fun' would be received by the community here, the strong implication being that you have the impression none of us ever have what [i][b]we[/i][/b] would call 'fun'. You seemed to be making it clear that your idea of 'fun' was different from ours.

Lastly, the word 'dream' is largely inflammatory in scriptural terms. We know you didn't mean [i]while you were asleep[/i], but the Bible makes clear that [i]imagination[/i] is most closely associated with [u]stubborness[/u], and so one of the effects of entering into the death of Christ, is that all 'imagination' must be brought into the presence of God or, emanate from communion with Him. Under the New Covenant, [i]vision[/i] is concrete and spiritual. It does not flow from the natural man.


If you are sure your 'dreams' come from God, and you are pleasing [u]Him[/u] to follow them, what's holding you back?

S
sermonindex


MrReader wrote:
Thanks, again, tj.

I understood your change of heart. And I think it's great! But still, would it be wrong of you to want a house to live in? Say, for example, you're renting an apartment but you'd like to have a house to live in. Do you have to deny yourself this? If so, what about Christians who own homes already. Should they sell their homes to rent because they'll have their own home in heaven some day?

Dear brother,

The Lord told us that in order to gain our lives we must first lose them, but whoever wants to save or keep his life will thereby lose it. I think this is key here. Unless we lose something in our hearts first, we cannot gain it--or it will gain us. There is nothing wrong with desiring or possessing a house as long as you are not [i]possessed by it[/i].

In doing the will of God there is an ultimate denial of self. We shut up and listen, no "and's," no "but's."

I understand that when you ask about pleasures that aren't contrary to the commandments of God, you really mean it. But as it was pointed out by others earlier, it is the heart motive that qualifies or disqualifies our desires. Are you trying to have it figured out, to understand the whole picture so you can somehow position yourself rightly and safely in the middle? I have done this myself. I thought there were so many reasonable questions and needed answers about my Christian walk that I didn't dare to continue it. So I literally would block and get so discouraged because I couldn't come to the level of clarity and understanding that would satisfy me and expel all fear of failure. I wanted to deny myself in doing this self-examination, but the more I did it the more self-absorbed I became--thus achieving quite the contrary.

You cannot deny yourself unless you leave it to the Lord. For Him to speak, for Him to decide. Remember the story of the centurion's daughter. The more you look at the world and at yourself, you will start losing you peace in Christ, and your flesh will try to have everything under control--seeking signs from God and wisdom, just like the Jews and Greeks, who, having their own agenda, couldn't believe the simple message and did not recognize their Savior.

So, brother, I would say this. Denying self also means to not trust in self, to not lean on your knowledge and understanding, but to throw yourself at the feet of the Lord and depend on Him for your all. The Christian walk is indeed a NARROW path. Someone recently showed me pictures of a mountain path off some peak in China I believe. It wasn't really a path by our standard, but more like a wooden bridge, with no railing, the abyss looming wide just inches away from your feet. If you lose your concentration just for a second, and off you go! I had always thought of my walk as finding some safe middle ground, some path in the valley perhaps, that many people would not walk on, which would be quiet and peaceful, a path safe and desirable, which I could walk on with my eyes closed. But the Lord showed me that walking with Him is more precarious than I'd thought, just like that mountain ledge in China. It is a NARROW path, and without abiding in the Lord, you will easily stray from it.

So your safety and your satisfaction is in abiding in Him, Who is the Source of all pleasure. He will make fountains of living water spring from your inner man. His light will show you the true value of things. Take your mind off yourself and the things you must do. To quote brother Nee, "Self-introspection is detrimental to spiritual life." Look unto Jesus and lose yourself in Him, no "why's," no "and's," no "but's." Be still and know that He is God, brother.

In Christ,
Slavyan

F
Friedrick

I have a suspicious feeling discipline plays a deep role in enjoyment.

Friedrick

T
tjservant


MrReader wrote:
Thanks, again, tj.

I understood your change of heart. And I think it's great! But still, would it be wrong of you to want a house to live in? Say, for example, you're renting an apartment but you'd like to have a house to live in. Do you have to deny yourself this? If so, what about Christians who own homes already. Should they sell their homes to rent because they'll have their own home in heaven some day?

See, THIS is the side of the coin I'm trying to get at.

You said you intend to write a book. There are those who say the Bible is all we need. If you have a DESIRE to publish a book, is this part of God's COMMAND to deny yourself? After all, what can you add to God's Word? You said

He asks (commands) that we deny self.
He provides all things...this includes contentment…and it is found only in Him.

Aren't you content NOT writing a book? Again, THIS is the aspect of this that I'm trying to get at with my questions. At what point is it legalism and at what point is it obedience?

So, how is the command to deny ourselves reconciled with these issues?

Again, I'm not trying to debate or challenge anyone to anything. I'm trying to understand this on a whole, complete level, and not just the top layer of it.

For me it’s not about whether or not I want a house. It’s about whether or not God wants me to have a house.

Jesus says that disciples will love him supremely and will love others as He has loved us. That is what we are to be and do. But we must decide that that is what we will be and do. Peter faced this personal battle of the will in Mark 8. Jesus had just told the disciples that He must suffer and die at the hands of the Jewish leaders. Peter responded to this news by rebuking Jesus. This was not in His plans. He had followed Jesus this far, but this was too much. Jesus was requiring too much to be given up; the cost was too high. Jesus gathered the crowd around Him and spoke these words to teach what a disciple must do. “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34).

If Peter was to continue in the path of a disciple, he must deny himself as the focus and authority of his own life, he must take up his cross of total submission and sacrifice to the will of God, and he must with allegiance follow Jesus. This is an internal decision of the will. This is a decision to put aside all personal interests in order to fulfill the interest of another.

Deny self means that we place the emphasis on God's will for our lives, not our own. Deny in this case doesn't mean neglect of self, but instead implies a change of control…God in control instead of ourselves.

In my case writing a book (co-authorship by the way) will be much more akin to the tent making Paul was engaged in (if the boss says write a book…write a book). I have wanted to write a book from the time I was a young child, but until now this would have been about me. I believe God is now using this ‘God given desire’ to bring glory to His name…and this is my desire as well. John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” This brings me much pleasure and satisfaction. It was only after a purification of motivation that God opened this door.

Dorcas is right. It’s about finding God’s will…and obedience to it.

C
crsschk

I've been lurking on these forums for several months have enjoyed my time here.

Just recognized the slight irony there, your enjoyment here! But I am glad you brought this forth, appreciate your honesty and fresh perspective;

I'm conflicted by this due to this forum. I want to please God and live a life that honors Him, but did He create me to deny everything about me? If I want to write a novel and have it become a best seller, is this a bad thing? If I want to leave my state and move to another so I can enjoy different climate and surroundings, is this wrong?

Recognize what you mean, maybe to back up a little;

From the conversations I've seen here, it would lead someone just lurking to think that we have to be somber monks and never laugh or fulfill a dream we have to own a home or become a tailor or take a vacation to Disney World.

It's a perception and understandable. Certainly a focus is presented here as to the interests and thrust of the site ...

[i]Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;[/i] 1Ti 6:17

[i]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[/i] Rom 14:5,6


"All things to enjoy" ... and giving God thanks. Anything that we can give thanks to God for is an enjoyment. Am thinking also of Paul's contentment, [i] I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.[/i] Even to back up a hair in that same context and hear him state, [i]But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly[/i] (Php 4:10 and following).

Wrote those out earlier and have been following along. I do recognize what you mean and there will never be a consensus here, the best it could be put is again;

[i]Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[/i]

Wonder if a compartmentalizing might be just as much of a problem as anything. Just a couple of thoughts.

Personally speaking, it's a fun time right now.

My Sharks are in the playoffs 8-)

O
Onesimus4God

I was on my way to Jamaica, to preach in a little church in Montego Bay that needed an interim pastor. If accepted, I would be called.

I remembered my home back in California. It was a nice 3 bedroom home with a pool in the back yard. I moved into it in October, so I had yet to swim in it. It was the first and only home I'd ever had with an inground swimming pool. All I had been able to do is drag my toe in the water, but I was anticipating summer and enjoying my own pool.
Then all of a sudden, I lost my job. I sought God and He opened this door for me in Jamaica. So as the plane was decending on Mo Bay, I was thinking about this swimming pool I'd probably never get to use, and lamenting over the thought. Then I gazed out over the beautiful Caribbean, with it's infininte varieties of turquoise color. It just seemed to go on and on in it's beauty. Then the Lord spoke to me and asked, "how do you like your new swimming pool"? My heart was engulfed at the thought, tears streaming down my face. "Is it big enough My son?" "Yes Lord". I worshipped.
He showed me that when I'm willing to give it ALL up for Him, He has so much more than anything the world can give on it's own terms. I began to see with eyes that I had never seen with before. I began to hear His voice in a brand new way.
"Seek ye first, the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, then all these things shall be added unto you". Why is it we always want to find a way to "personalize" scripture into a "greater understanding"? Why not just take God at His word and believe it. One simply cannot serve two masters. One is destined for the fire. The other created all things, including the fire. One seeks to destroy us along with our flesh. The other intends for us to live eternally with Him. But we have to first make a choice. He said "I set before you life and death, choose life". It really is that simple, if only we let it be. He gave us the answer...choose life!

Humbly basking in His mercy and grace,

"0"

B
BrianPaul

Read if you have time.

Power From On High
by Charles G. Finney
CHAPTER 9
INNOCENT AMUSEMENTS

We hear much said, and read much, in these days, of indulging in innocent amusements. I heard a minister, some time since, in addressing a large company of young people, say that he had spent much time in devising innocent amusements for the young. Within a few years I have read several sermons and numerous articles pleading for more amusements than have been customary with religious people. With your consent, I wish to suggest a few thoughts upon this subject--first, what are not, and, secondly, what are innocent amusements.

1st. This is a question of morals.

2nd. All intelligent acts of a moral agent must be either right or wrong. Nothing is innocent in a moral agent that is not in accordance with the law and gospel of God.

3rd. The moral character of any and every act of a moral agent resides in the motive or the ultimate reason for the act. This I take to be self-evident and universally admitted.

4th. Now, what is the rule of judgment in this case? How are we to decide whether any given act of amusement is right or wrong, innocent or sinful?

I answer:

1st. By the moral law, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart," etc., "and thy neighbour as thyself." No intelligent act of a moral agent is innocent or right unless it proceeds from and is an expression of supreme love to God and equal love to man--in other words, unless it is benevolent.

2nd. The Gospel. This requires the same: "Therefore, whether ye eat or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God." "Do all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

3rd. Right reason affirms the same thing. Now, in the light of this rule, it is plain that it is not innocent to engage in amusements merely to gratify the desire for amusement. We may not innocently eat or drink to gratify the desire for food or drink. To eat or drink merely to gratify appetite is innocent enough in a mere animal, but in a moral agent it is a sin. A moral agent is bound to have a higher ultimate motive--to eat and drink--that he may be strong and healthy for the service of God. God has made eating and drinking pleasant to us; but this pleasure ought not to be our ultimate reason for eating and drinking. So amusements are pleasant, but this does not justify us in seeking amusements to gratify desire. Mere animals may do this innocently, because they are incapable of any higher motive. But moral agents are under a higher law, and are bound to have another and a higher aim than merely to gratify the desire for amusements. Therefore, no amusement is innocent which is engaged in for the pleasure of the amusement, any more than it would be innocent to eat and drink for the pleasure of it. Again, no amusement is innocent that is engaged in because we need amusements. We need food and drink; but this does not justify us in eating and drinking simply because we need it. The law of God does not say, "Seek whatever ye need because ye need it"; but, "Do all from love to God and man." A wicked man might eat and drink selfishly--that is, to make his body strong to execute his selfish plans--but this eating and drinking would be sin, notwithstanding he needed food and drink.

Nothing is innocent unless it proceeds from supreme love to God and equal love to man, unless the supreme and ultimate motive be to please and honour God. In other words, to be innocent, any amusement must be engaged in because it is believed to be at the time most pleasing to God, and is intended to be a service rendered to Him, as that which, upon the whole, will honour Him more than anything else that we can engage in for the time being. I take this to be self-evident. What then? It follows:

1st. That none but benevolent amusements can be innocent. Fishing and shooting for amusement are not innocent. We may fish and hunt for the same reason that we are allowed to eat and drink--to supply nature with aliment, that we may be strong in the service of God. We may hunt to destroy noxious animals, for the glory of God and the interests of His kingdom. But fishing and hunting to gratify a passion for these sports is not innocent. Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves the squandering of precious time, that might be better employed to the glory of God and the good of man. Life is short. Time is precious. We have but one life to live. Much is to be done. The world is in darkness. A world of sinners are to be enlightened, and, if possible, saved. We are required to work while the day lasteth. Our commission and work require dispatch. No time is to be lost. If our hearts are right, our work is pleasant. If rightly performed it affords the highest enjoyment and is itself the highest amusement. No turning aside for amusement can be innocent that involves any unnecessary loss of time. No man that realizes the greatness of the work to be done, and loves to do it, can turn aside for any amusement involving an unnecessary waste of time. Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves an unnecessary expenditure of the Lord's money. All our time and all our money are the Lord's. We are the Lord's. We may innocently use both time and money to promote the Lord's interests and the highest interests of man, which are the Lord's interests. But we may not innocently use either for our own pleasure and gratification. Expensive journeys for our own pleasure and amusement, and not indulged in with a single eye to the glory of God, are not innocent amusements, but sinful. Again, in the light of the above rule of judgment, we see that no form of amusement is lawful for an unconverted sinner. Nothing in him is innocent. While he remains impenitent and unbelieving, does not love God and his neighbour according to God's command, there is for him no innocent employment or amusement; all is sin.

And right here I fear that many are acting under a great delusion. The loose manner in which this subject is viewed by many professors of religion, and even ministers, is surprising and alarming. Some time since, in a sermon, I remarked that there were no lawful employments or innocent amusements for sinners. An aged clergyman who was present said, after service, that it was ridiculous to hold that nothing was lawful or innocent in an impenitent sinner. I replied: "I thought you were orthodox. Do you not believe in the universal necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit?" He replied: "Yes." I added: "Do you believe that an unregenerate soul does anything acceptable to God? Before his heart is changed, does he ever act from a motive that God can accept, in anything whatever? Is he not totally depraved, in the sense that his heart is all wrong, and therefore his actions must be all wrong?" He appeared embarrassed, saw the point, and subsided.

Whatever is lawful in a moral agent or according to the law of God is right. If anyone, therefore, engages lawfully in any employment or in any amusement, he must do so from supreme love to God and equal love to his neighbour; and is, therefore, not an impenitent sinner, but a Christian. It is simply absurd and a contradiction to say that an impenitent soul does, or says, or omits anything with a right heart. If impenitent, his ultimate motive must necessarily be wrong; and, consequently, nothing in him is innocent, but all must be sinful. What, then, is an innocent amusement? It must be that and that only which not only might be but actually is engaged in with a single eye to God's glory and the interests of His kingdom. If this be not the ultimate and supreme design, it is not an innocent, but a sinful amusement. Now, right here is the delusion of many persons, I fear. When speaking of amusements, they say: "What harm is there in them?" In answering to themselves and others this question, they do not penetrate to the bottom of it. If on the surface they see nothing contrary to morality, they judge that the amusement is innocent. They fail to inquire into the supreme and ultimate motive in which the innocence or sinfulness of the act is found. But apart from the motive no course of action is either innocent or sinful, any more than the motions of a machine or the acts of a mere animal are innocent or sinful. No act or course of action should, therefore, be adjudged as either innocent or sinful without ascertaining the supreme motive of the person who acts.

To teach, either directly or by implication, that any amusement of an impenitent sinner or of a backslider is innocent is to teach a gross and ruinous heresy. Parents should remember this in regard to the amusements of their unconverted children. Sabbath school teachers and superintendents who are planning amusements for their Sabbath schools, preachers who spend their time in planning amusements for the young, who lead their flocks to picnics, in pleasure excursions, and justify various games, should certainly remember that, unless they are in a holy state of heart, and do all this from supreme love to God and a design in the highest degree to glorify God thereby, these ways of spending time are by no means innocent, but highly criminal, and those who teach people to walk in these ways are simply directing the channels in which their depravity shall run. For be it ever remembered that, unless these things are indulged in from supreme love to God and designed to glorify Him, unless they are, in fact, engaged in with a single eye to the glory of God, they are not innocent, but sinful amusements. I must say again, and, if possible, still more emphatically, that it is not enough that they might be engaged in as the best way, for the time being, to honour and please God; but they must be actually engaged in from supreme love to God, with the ultimate design to glorify Him. If such, then, is the true doctrine of innocent amusements, let no impenitent sinner and no backslidden Christian suppose for a moment that it is possible for him to engage in any innocent amusement. If it were true, as the aged minister to whom I have referred and many others seem to believe, that impenitent sinners or backsliders can and do engage in innocent amusements, the very engaging in such amusements, being lawfully right and innocent in them, would involve a change of heart in the unconverted, and a return to God in the backslider. For no amusement is lawful unless it be engaged in as a love-service rendered to God and with design to please and glorify Him. It must not only be a love service, but, in the judgment of the one who renders it, it must be the best service that, for the time being, he can render to God--a service that will be more pleasing to Him and more useful to His kingdom than any other that can be engaged in at the time. Let these facts be borne in mind when the question of engaging in amusements comes up for decision. And remember, the question in all such cases is not, "What harm is there in this proposed amusement?" but, "What good can it do?" "Is it the best way in which I can spend my time?" "Will it be more pleasing to God and more for the interest of His kingdom than anything else at present possible to me?" "If not, it is not an innocent amusement, and I cannot engage in it without sin." The question often arises: "Are we never to seek such amusements?" I answer: It is our privilege and our duty to live above a desire for such things. All that class of desires should be so subdued by living so much in the light of God, and having so deep a communion with Him as to have no relish for such amusements whatever. It certainly is the privilege of every child of God to walk so closely with Him, and maintain so divine a communion with Him, as not to feel the necessity of worldly excitements, sports, pastimes, and entertainments to make his enjoyment satisfactory. If a Christian avails himself of his privilege of communion with God, he will naturally and by an instinct of his new nature repel solicitations to go after worldly amusements. To him such pastimes will appear low, unsatisfactory, and even repulsive. If he is of a heavenly mind, as he ought to be, he will feel as if he could not afford to come down and seek enjoyment in worldly amusements. Surely, a Christian must be fallen from his first love, he must have turned back into the world, before he can feel the necessity or have the desire of seeking enjoyment in worldly sports and pastimes. A spiritual mind cannot seek enjoyment in worldly society. To such a mind that society is necessarily repulsive. Worldly society is insincere, hollow, and to a great extent a sham. What relish can a spiritual mind have for the gossip of a worldly party of pleasure? None whatever. To a mind in communion with God their worldly spirit and ways, conversation and folly is repulsive and painful, as it is so strongly suggestive of the downward tendency of their souls, and of the destiny that awaits them. I have had so marked an experience of both sides of this question that I think I cannot be mistaken. Probably but few persons enjoy worldly pleasure more intensely than I did before I was converted; but my conversion, and the spiritual baptism which immediately followed it, completely extinguished all desire for worldly sports and amusements. I was lifted at once into entirely another plane of life and another kind of enjoyment. From that hour to the present the mode of life, the pastimes, sports, amusements, and worldly ways that so much delighted me before have not only failed to interest me, but I have had a positive aversion to them. I have never felt them necessary to, or even compatible with, a truly rational enjoyment. I do not speak boastingly; but for the honour of Christ and His religion, I must say that my Christian life has been a happy one. I have had as much enjoyment as is probably best for men to have in this life, and never for an hour have I had the desire to turn back and seek enjoyment from anything the world can give. But some may ask: "Suppose we do not find sufficient enjoyment in religion, and really desire to go after worldly amusements. If we have the disposition, is it not as well to gratify it?" "Is there any more sin in seeking amusements than in entertaining a longing for them?" I reply that a longing for them should never be entertained. It is the privilege and therefore the duty of everyone to rise, through grace, above a hungering and thirsting for the fleshpots of Egypt, worldly pastimes and time-wasting amusements. The indulgence of such longings is not innocent. One should not ask whether the longing should be gratified, but whether it should not be displaced by a longing for the glory of God and His kingdom.

Professed Christians are bound to maintain a life consistent with their profession. For the honour of religion, they ought to deny worldly lusts; and not, by seeking to gratify them, give occasion to the world to scoff and say that Christians love the world as well as they do. If professors of religion are backslidden in heart, and entertain a longing for worldly sports and amusements, they are bound by every consideration of duty and decency to abstain from all outward manifestation of such inward lustings. Some have maintained that we should conform to the ways of the world somewhat--at least, enough to show that we can enjoy the world and religion too; and that we make religion appear repulsive to unconverted souls by turning our backs upon what they call their innocent amusements. But we should represent religion as it really is--as living above the world, as consisting in a heavenly mind, as that which affords an enjoyment so spiritual and heavenly as to render the low pursuits and joys of worldly men disagreeable and repulsive. It is a sad stumbling-block to the unconverted to see professed Christians seeking pleasure or happiness from this world. Such seeking is a misrepresentation of the religion of Jesus. It misleads, bewilders, and confounds the observing outsider. If he ever reads his Bible, he cannot but wonder that souls who are born of God and have communion with Him should have any relish for worldly ways and pleasures. The fact is that thoughtful unconverted men have little or no confidence in that class of professing Christians who seek enjoyment from this world. They may profess to have, and may loosely think of such as being liberal and good Christians. They may flatter them, and commend their religion as being the opposite of fanaticism and bigotry, and as being such a religion as they like to see; but there is no real sincerity in such professions on the part of the impenitent.

In my early Christian life I heard a Methodist bishop from the South report a case that made a deep impression on my mind. He said there was in his neighbourhood a slave holder, a gentleman of fortune, who was a gay and agreeable man, and gave himself much to various field sports and amusements. He used to associate much with his pastor, often invite him to dinner, and to accompany him in his sports and pleasure-seeking excursions of various kinds. The minister cheerfully complied with these requests, and a friendship grew up between the pastor and his parishioner that continued till the last sickness of this gay and wealthy man. When the wife of this worldling was apprised that her husband could live but a short time she was much alarmed for his soul, and tenderly inquired if she should not call in their minister to converse and pray with him. He feelingly replied: "No, my dear; he is not the man for me to see now. He was my companion, as you know, in worldly sports and pleasure-seeking; he loved good dinners and a jolly time. I then enjoyed his society and found him a pleasant companion. But I see now that I never had any real confidence in his piety, and have now no confidence in the efficacy of his prayers. I am now a dying man, and need the instruction and prayers of somebody that can prevail with God. We have been much together, but our pastor has never been in serious earnest with me about the salvation of my soul, and he is not the man to help me now." The wife was greatly affected, and said: "What shall I do, then?" He replied: "My coachman, Tom, is a pious man. I have confidence in his prayers. I have often overheard him pray, when about the barn or stables, and his prayers have always struck me as being quite sincere and earnest. I never heard any foolishness from him. He has always been honest and earnest as a Christian man. Call him." Tom was called, and came within the door, dropping his hat and looking tenderly and compassionately at his dying master. The dying man put forth his hand, saying: "Come here, Tom. Take my hand. Tom, can you pray for your dying master?" Tom poured out his soul in earnest prayer. I cannot remember the name of this bishop, it was so long ago; but the story I well remember as an illustration of the mistake into which many professors and some ministers fall, supposing that we recommend religion to the unconverted by mingling with them in their pleasures and their running after amusements. I have seen many illustrations of this mistake. Christians should live so far above the world as not to need or seek its pleasures, and thus recommend religion to the world as a source of the highest and purest happiness. The peaceful look, the joyful countenance, the spiritual serenity and cheerfulness of a living Christian recommend religion to the unconverted. Their satisfaction in God, their holy joy, their living above and shunning the ways and amusements of worldly minds, impress the unconverted with a sense of the necessity and desirableness of a Christian life. But let no man think to gain a really Christian influence over another by manifesting a sympathy with his worldly aspirations.

Now, is this rule a yoke of bondage? I do not wonder that it has created in some minds not a little disturbance. The pleasure-loving and pleasure-seeking members of the Church regard the rule as impracticable, as a strait-jacket, as a bondage. But to whom is it a straitjacket and a bondage? To whom is it impracticable? Surely it is not and cannot be to any who love God with all their heart and their neighbour as themselves. It certainly cannot be so regarded by a real Christian, for all real Christians love God supremely. Their own interests and their own pleasure are regarded as nothing as compared with the interests and good pleasure of God. They, therefore, cannot seek amusements unless they believe themselves called of God to do so. By a law of our nature we seek to please those whom we supremely love. Also, by a law of our nature, we find our highest happiness in pleasing those whom we supremely love; and we supremely please ourselves when we seek not at all to please ourselves, but to please the object of our supreme affection. Therefore, Christians find their highest enjoyment and their truest pleasure in pleasing God and in seeking the good of their fellow-men; and they enjoy this service all the more because enjoyment is not what they seek, but what they inevitably experience by a law of their nature.

This is a fact of Christian consciousness. The highest and purest of all amusements is found in doing the will of God. Mere worldly amusements are cold and insipid and not worthy of naming in comparison with the enjoyment we find in doing the will of God. To one who loves God supremely it is natural to seek amusements, and everything else that we do seek, with supreme reference to the glory of God. Why, then, should this rule be regarded as too strict, as placing the standard too high, and as being a strait-jacket and a bondage? How, then, are we to understand those who plead so much for worldly amusements?

From what I have heard and read upon this subject within the last few years, I have gathered that these pleaders for amusements have thought that there was more enjoyment to be gained from these amusements than from the service of God. They remind me of a sentence that I used to have as a copy when a school-boy: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." They seem to assume that the service of God is work in the sense of being a task and a burden; that to labour and pray and preach to win souls to Christ, to commune with God and perform the duties of religion is so wearisome, not to say irksome, that we need a good many playdays; that the love of Christ is not satisfactory; that we must have frequent resort to worldly amusements to make life tolerable. Christ on one occasion said to His disciples: "Come aside and rest awhile." This is not wonderful when we consider that they were often so thronged as not to have time even to eat their ordinary meals. But it was not amusement that they sought; simply rest from their labours of love, in which labours they must have had the greatest enjoyment.

I often ask myself: "What can it mean that so many of our highly-fed and most popular preachers are pleading so much for amusements?" They seem to be leading the Church off in a direction in which she is the most in danger. It is no wonder that lay-men and women are easily led in that direction, for such teaching exactly accords with the innumerable temptations to worldliness which are presented to the Church on every side. The Bible is replete with instruction upon this subject, which is the direct opposite of these pleas for worldly amusements. These teachers plead for fun, hilarity, jesting, plays, and games, and such things as worldly minds love and enjoy; but the Bible exhorts to sobriety, heavenly-mindedness, unceasing prayer, and a close and perpetual walk with God. The Bible everywhere assumes that all real enjoyment is found in this course of life, that all true peace of mind is found in communion with God and in being given up to seek His glory as the constant and supreme end of life. It exhorts us to watchfulness, and informs us that for every idle word we must give account in the Day of Judgment. It nowhere informs us that fun and hilarity are the source of rational enjoyment; it nowhere encourages us to expect to maintain a close walk with God, to have peace of mind and joy in the Holy Ghost, if we gad about to seek amusements. And is not the teaching of the Bible on this subject in exact accordance with human experience? Do we need to have the pulpit turn advocate of worldly amusements? Is not human depravity strong enough in that direction, without being stimulated by the voice of the preacher? Has the Church worked so hard for God and souls, are Christians so overdone with their exhausting efforts to pull sinners out of the fire, that they are in danger of becoming insane with religious fervour and need that the pulpit and the press should join in urging them to turn aside and seek amusements and have a little fun?

What can it mean? Why, is it not true that nearly all our dangers are on this side? Is not human nature in its present state so strongly tending in these directions that we need to be on our guard, and constantly to exhort the Church not to be led away after amusements and fun, to the destruction of their souls? But to come back to the question: To whom is it a bondage, to be required to have a single eye to the good pleasure and glory of God in all that we do? Who finds it hard to do so? Christ says His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The requirement to do all for the glory of God is surely none other than the yoke of Christ. It is His expressed will. Who finds this a hard yoke and a heavy burden? It is not hard or heavy to a willing, loving mind.

Just the thing here required is natural and inevitable to everyone that truly loves God and is truly devoted to the Saviour. What is devotion to Jesus but a heart set upon rendering Him a loving obedience in all things? What is Christian liberty but the privilege of doing that which Christians most love to do--that is, in all things to fulfil the good pleasure of their blessed Lord? Turn aside from saving souls to seek amusements! As if there could be a higher and diviner pleasure than is found in labouring for the salvation of souls. It cannot be. There can be no higher enjoyment found in this world than is found in pulling souls out of the fire and bringing them to Christ. I am filled with amazement when I read and hear the appeals to the Church to seek more worldly amusements. Do we need, can we have any fuller and higher satisfaction than is found in a close, serious, loving walk with God and co-operation with Him in fitting souls for heaven?

All that I hear said to encourage the people of God in seeking amusements appears to me to proceed from a worldly, instead of a spiritual state of mind. Can it be possible that a soul in communion with God and, of course, yearning with compassion over dying men, struggling from day to day in agonizing prayer for their salvation, should entertain the thought of turning aside to seek amusement? Can a pastor in whose congregation are numbers of unsaved souls, and amongst whose membership are many worldly-minded professors of religion, turn aside and lead or accompany his Church in a backsliding movement to gain worldly pleasure? There are always enough in every Church who are easily led astray in that direction. But who are they that most readily fall in with such a movement? Who are ready to come to the front when a picnic, a pleasure excursion, a worldly party, or other pleasure-seeking movements are proposed? Are they, in fact, the class that always attend prayer-meetings, that are always in a revival state of mind? Do they belong to the class whose faces shine from day to day with the peace of God pervading their souls? Are they the Aarons and Hurs that stay up the hands of their pastor with continual and prevailing prayer? Are they spiritual members, whose conversation is in heaven and who mind not earthly things? Who does not know that it is the worldly members in the Church who are always ready for any movement in the direction of worldly pleasure or amusement, and that the truly spiritual, prayerful, heavenly-minded members are shy of all such movements? They are not led into them without urging, and weep in secret places when they see their pastor giving encouragement to that which is likely to be so great a stumbling-block to both the Church and to the world.

Z
Zionshield

Hello Mr Reader :-) ,

There had been times over the years I focused so much on dying to self...learning from books and sermons etc...that I forgot that the whole purpose of dying was so Christ could live through me. I rarely focused on the life part. Of course I'm not really gone...only I'm not living from the strength I inherited from Adam. Anyway, I say that because my perspective was off balance and it caused me to be too serious and somber usually. He came to give us life now. Eternal life begins now. Life is in Him...knowing Him is where we find that essential aliveness we long for...In this we experience wonder, purpose, love and security.

Have you noticed in your life that when you go do something you really love or enjoy without the Lord its vanity as Solomon said. It's void of the quality of life we are seeking, the fulfillment of our deepest desire is still unmet. When I have watched a movie, go out to get a steak, play a video game, go to the mountains of TN, go the ocean, plan a perfect evening...the list may go on; if I'm grieving the Holy Spirit b/c He wants me to come to Jesus and be with Him or simply curtail my want of creature comforts for His sake I don't enjoy those things anyway. Or it could be that I'm looking for heaven here on earth. The Lord won't let us do that. John Eldredge has spoken well on this in the Sacred Romance and the Journey of Desire. He would be a good resource for you. I've noticed it alot since I read that. I plan the perfect vacation only for it to not go as planned or ...it goes as planned and I can't enjoy it b/c I'm making earth my home and trying to find that fulfillment in fun and pleasure.

I was listening to a Cedarville University prof of OT yesterday on Ecclesiastes. He said vanity or meaninglessness isn't entirely what the original language was trying to get across. It has to do with the curse as well. There is no escaping the curse yet. The whole of creation groans (remember Romans?) Its ascribing to out common experience under the sun as transitory and unsatisfactory. We hunger for righteousness and mourn over our still fallen state looking for an eternal city...yet He says repeatedly in the book that he wants us to enjoy life...the sum of it is...if you obey Him you will enjoy life because you are remaining connected to and fellowshipping with the Person wherein there is life. We may expect weeping with our laughter, tearing down with our building, throwing away with our keeping, war with our peace, etc.. b/c of the curse.

Isn't it a perfect plan of God's? The pain and opposing things we experience from the fall actually can help to the end of getting closer to Him and inflict the old man with death so as to experience that resurrection life. Paul rejoiced always in his sorrow. See the passage on the treasure in earthen vessels (Nee has a great little booklet on that) Experiencing that vivid, ultimate life in Christ is what we want. Pleasure can dull the soul and make a man like a spiritual leper. I could go on and on. I enjoy this topic...thanks for bringing it up.

Do you know why the gum crossed the road?

S
sermonindex

Guys and gals, I really believe that some of us are gagging at a Gnat and swallowing a camel here.


Some of us are responding on the direct borders of Pharisaical and saducaichal thinking, u know legalism. Mr reader, u will have to get this peace and conviction from God on this subject personally.

I dont believe that we r to live in the doldrums of life! Just as u had to find peace with God in a decisive salvation experience, so shall u have to have made peace with God through this particular issue.

Men are liars(deceptive,selfish,inconsistent with truth) even at our best, but let God be true, yes, even in this situation which may seem small to others but with God he cares equally as much as u do.

Z
Zionshield

IT WAS STUCK TO THE CHICKEN'S FOOT! :-) :-P

T
tjservant

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This says it all.

Wonder if a compartmentalizing might be just as much of a problem as anything. Just a couple of thoughts.

Insightful…and very true in my case.

S
sermonindex

Let me also say this for the record, I am approaching 40 years of age, not old at all, but I have been in an among all sorts and variations of Christendom. I have heard all types of theology, responses from people of clergy and lay people if u will. I have been lay and I have been in a ministerial office as well, and i have found that God must be God in ones life. NOT the church, its leaders, or the loud mouth 2 cents of many who do not have a clue as to the sensitivity of your heart. Many judgments have I overcome, all types of ideologies, methodologies and conceptualized process, all absolutely disgusting!

I have endured this for over twenty years of what I have called as a "being saved-sanctified life". You cannot live life as a kill- joy, nor has god almighty insisted that we do, you MUST occupy until he comes or calls, you cannot make up a calling or wait and do nothing until he calls.

If you feel the necessity to go into a certain field or study then by all means pursue it to the glory of God, not for financial reasons only, but ask God, and one will only ask if they understand the undertaking, for God to get his glory out of your life whether u r in flight school, the military, hospital, business etc.....

He wants to use us to do more than make companies millions of dollars nevertheless he will use the people that u make money to bless u. WAKE up guys and gals, we have to live in this life and FAITH WITHOUT WORKS OF ANY TYPE IS DEAD!!!!!! period.

I would rather be found of God trying to live this life with the talents , gifts or opportunities he allows then to be sitting still doing nothing period . As a matter of fact scripture gives us examples of many patriarchs and biblical figures that are usually in the midst of doing something just b4 God calls them to something of a separated/consecrated mission.

So, I am not at all saying that we should always be busy!

But, we should be productive for our mind and heart sakes until he calls us higher than the already high calling of being delivered from sin, walking into sanctification, and prayers. Simply occupy til he comes...Waiting for HIM to respond in his glory, dont take it lightly!

this is rest and we all must enter into it. I agree with practically everything that Onesimus4GOD stated earlier in the posts.....

T
tjservant

We are all at different places in our Christian walk. There may be some that are convinced that watching TV will most certainly place them in hell, while others have no problem flying the family over to Italy for a weekend of skiing.

The level of liberty God lets one operate in may not coincide with that of another. We must not flaunt this liberty…and like wise…we should not attempt to impose our restraints.

Not sure anyone can give you the answers you are looking for. I have told you about my personal experience…so that you might be able to take from it what you will.

I am, for the most part, of a serious nature when on the SI forums for I am often talking about serious things. This is not to say that I do not have fun apart from cyberspace.

I have two small trips planned for this summer and I fully except them to be Fun! Fun! Fun!

D
destinysweet

In my understanding,there are 2 types of believers.Those who walk according to the flesh and those who walk according to the Spirit. Those who are of the former follow their own thoughts and do their own will,while those of the latter follow Jesus...are seeking Him, His thoughts and wisdom,believing and thus receiving all He has to give.It is God's great pleasure to give us the kingdom!

While reading over this post,it occured to me to share something that some might have believed in theory yet never experienced..we can be full of joy..whether we are cleaning up someone else's mess,working a menial job,facing difficult trials,enjoying the play of littleones,observing God's glorious handiwork in nature,getting some exercise(wholesome and healthy),sitting at table,shopping for groceries,leading the lost towards our Glorious Redeemer,equipping/fellowshipping with the saints, or sitting quietly in communion with Him ourselves..O! Wonderful union!

Everything we do must be motivated by God..if it is not..we are not having our being in Him and thus our doing will not be empowered with the fullness of God's presence..we can have this awareness,this assurance..where all is set in divine order..where all that we do is done unto the Lord..in Truth, Reality.


When we delight in God above all else,His delight is in us..when we desire Him above all else..It is His delight to give us the desires of our heart. Interesting enough when we have been brought to a more full surrender..for this is truly not of our doing..but it is a blessed gift...we are led by the Spirit to ask for this..but we are still completely at God's mercy to see it made manifest by His abundance of grace. We cannot help but to become changed..stripped of all other desires besides God's desire..we are only concerned with the doing of God's will. This is the will of God..so if you pray for this to made real in your life in Christ..He will move heaven and earth to fulfil this prayer..His will be done..on earth as it it His will in heaven.This is one place where you never need wonder if you pray according to divine will.Without this initial work begun ..all the rest is meaningless,and so it is with confidence that we trust that God will do it and not waver here in our faith.. He will do this for you..you cannot do it of yourself..all you can do is surrender.In this divine work His desires become our desires..He gives us the desires of our hearts because our desires line up with His..because He is the one who put them there..we became surrendered..in truth delighting only in Him..empty of all other dreams or desires but His.This is truly attainable..don't ever believe differently.

When this happens and it will..this is when The Life, a real Christian life begins to actually happen..this is an extraordinary Life indeed..it is Christ who lives in us and moves..this is what delights our being..just 'being' is a delight. The motivations of our hearts are in alignment with God's perfect will..which no longer is difficult to figure out,it is clear..our steps are ordered..we have assurance..we have joy even in the midst of suffering,deprivations and hardships..because His presence is as tangible to us as what can be seen or touched by your natural senses,even more so..we are delighting in Him..He dwells within!He will never leave you nor forsake you..just think..you are suffering much of what others suffer..but they do not have Jesus..no Helper,no Comforter..No abiding access to the Heavenly Father..Who is as a shield..as a strong tower..to guide and protect..Compassion grows and we love more deeply,we become more full of love's all encompassing dimensions in Christ Jesus..it becomes fun to just be given an opportunity to be kind..to show love.To be merciful.

Many times,God has shown me..you are back going to Hawaii..this or that island in particular.."It's a holiday." What some call going on holiday,others call a vacation.When I think holiday,translate holy day..all days are holy to me and so I would laugh..thinking I would be very busy going about my Father's business..there is excitement in having your expectation be in your God alone..He has so many suprises interwoven into the everyday fabric of our lives hidden in Christ, surrender has nothing to do with boring..we are bored only when we are not accustomed to a life wrought in communion with the Most High.He makes His pleasure,His delight known to us with a generosity of loving affection..small things geared to bring us pleasure as well..He knows us better than we know ourselves..what will be the perfect way to show how faithfully He attends to us..how perfectly He cares..His creative brilliance in play,completely attuned to how He has made us in our being,what ought to be our recompense for what we've suffered,what would be the best way to encourage us...Jesus is so full..His being is so rich..all of God's people together can express only a portion of His beauty of character..of His holy,wholesome and complete character..we are not clones..we are uniquely made,jointly fit together..a building ,a temple where God dwells,inhabiting the praises of His people.

God gives us what is needed to bolster morale..motivate..educate..equip us in that which He has hidden..He delights in unfolding our lives wrought in Him before us.I know He does.This is what the world misses out on,scrabbling to not miss a thing..to experience everything they desire..it all turns to ash upon arriving at the goal..again the restless search for fulfilment,a new goal..never fully realizing the futility of this way of life,they are empty and cannot understand why..If this were not enough to motivate us..we look around and become aware that most of our brothers and sisters in Christ are missing out on the Life as well..because they have never been fully awakened..move about in a stupor,their spiritual senses too dull to take notice..their thoughts..their attention is on themselves,on what will make them happy or better off than they are..missing the fact that God will not allow them to be content or to succeed in the way they have planned out of Love..will actually block them until they enter in through the gate fully..many are still stuck on the threshold..hovering there between God's will and their own,moving forward resting their weight on one foot..slight hesitation and then looking back while shifting back onto the other foot..like they were straddling the point of departure from one life..to walk fully in the other. We pray for all who stuggle so..to be given a heart and mind undivided in their pursuit of God and His Perfect Will.

What is more fun than to do the will of God? This is abundance of joy,strengthening joy,this being in God's perfect will..all of life is alive with purpose..And God gives us so much more than we can ask or think of..what we might know would be ,could be fun is brought to an entirely different place of enjoyment, it is because Jesus is there..We are in communion with His Holy Spirit..we are so beloved..we are cherished. His Yoke is easy and His burden light..He makes all things easy ,light..understandable,endurable..we are comforted in the midst of adversity..we are blessed with the very best of outlooks..we have access to divine perspective..what an amazing God we serve..we stand in awe of Him..we are in wonderment like a little child ..we cast our cares upon Him should we come upon a hard place..He lifts and provides the best focus,Jesus.In Him we are conquerors,overcomers..reigning in life..full of abundance,His abundand Life.

When God is in control ..we are appropriately serious,sorrowful,lighthearted or amused..we are attuned..we have our being finely tuned like an instrument of worship..like my 12 string guitar is in my hands..this is the desire of my heart..to just be as this guitar is. Mute when not played..tuned to perfect pitch by the Hand of the Master, heartstrings plucked according to His fingerings..His methods,His spontenaity and His practiced discipline..His masterful form..this is how I must be yielded in His Hand..being moved whichever way God chooses or not moved because He is not taking me with Him,can my guitar get up and go somewhere without me?

There is great fullness in the Life sown in God's truth..the fullness of the Godhead still dwells bodily in Jesus..we being His body ought to be experiencing much of this fullness..He lives in us..when we see we are not,this is when we must ask..ask and stay asking..what do I need to ask for..the Holy Spirit will lead us in the truth of all this asking..for God's glory..that we might be made worthy of this union we have been given access to but so few actually know in real practice..make us presentable to be one with Him..Jesus,who deserves the very best that God has to offer.This is why we are called to be a living sacrifice..a living offering..all we have to offer is all we are.We look and say but I am nothing,broken and unworthy..God says your faith in My Son has made you worthy..we say but Lord even our faith came from You..He says it is as you say..all good gifts come from the Father of lights..and we know whatever He has given to us..this is so we can give it back. He gave me life..though I was destroying it He still wanted it back,asked me specifically for my life..audibly!Made it real simple for me to understand.He also gave me breath..kept me breathing ..He wants to breathe His life into us,to give to us His spirit..this is His full and original intent upon creating us..to present us as an offering for His Son..in honor of His glorious sacrifice..we are His inheritance and He is ours..what a marvelous loving and generous God we serve.He created us for His pleasure..How is it that we do not find pleasure in just being His creation?

We are too full of the world..within our souls are strongholds..the holding onto our own dreams and desires..we have not been brought to that place of delighting in Him alone..so that our heart's desire has become His and His alone.

The compartmentalized life of the carnal believer speaks of immaturity..it is seen through soulish mental filters..this is an inability to see god as all in all in their life due to not being fully God's. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added in accordance with diven will..not our desire..we prosper..spirit, soul and body..this is God's perfect order.We are filled within our spirit with God's Spiirt..this is where God communes with us,in our spiritual man..then He deals with our souls,in great need of transformation..by His grace as to what is priority for each individual..He knows everything that concerns us..His Spirit of Truth will teach us in the manner and in the order of the highest need..what we need to learn,when..how we need to be healed and released,what needs to be addressed and in what order.Perfectly choreographed,divinely orchestrated..extraordinarily supernaturally set in motion..love actively making manifest,righteous change..not of ourselves..but of Him ..His manifold grace in operation while we lay down our lives in yielded surrender.Correction becomes a great joy,show me God where I err that I might be made full of your righteousness..God is transforming our souls..we are being changed! Allow Him to have His way.We are loved this much!And it is all for Jesus..He is Worthy,He is Holy,He is Lord over all!

T
tjservant

Enjoyed your post destinysweet

The compartmentalized life of the carnal believer speaks of immaturity..it is seen through soulish mental filters..this is an inability to see god as all in all in their life due to not being fully God's.

I really enjoyed this part. When Mike B. mentioned compartmentalization earlier I related it to a mental segregation of SI member’s personal lives (where they might very well be professional comedians) and the level of seriousness we bring to this forum. This may make many of us look like an anti-fun-loving-lot. Many folks around here check their humor at the door out of reverence. When communicating electronically, humor, jokes, and silliness in general often lead to someone being offended and/or hurt and can be especially hard to properly convey...even with smiley faces. :-)

I see now that I may have completely missed what he was saying. Thank you.

S
sermonindex

destiny sweet


not that u are concerned about the difference here that I have, but 5-10 yrs ago I would agree with u, but again this is another response of a man's simple concern, and many of the responses here are what I call "head in the air", judgmental, misunderstood, and "so spiritual" responses.....

It is not always about being soulish and carnal....

TJservant was right when he stated that saints are in different places in their relationship and maturity, but it isn't necessarily that saints are "soulish or in the flesh".... God must lead the soul in whichever way they or we r to go.....

So please understand that we can be "so spiritual but of absolutely NO earthly good"!

J
JoeBenson

I am new to SI so I want to start off on the right foot. I am going to give it my best shot to not offend anyone while defending the Word of God; if that's possible.

MrReader,

I value your questions and I believe that God has led you to SI to help with Christian fellowship and answers. However, the truth only comes from the Lord above. I believe you when you say that you are seeking God's face in regards to a heavenly answer to your case.

I only have a couple of things to say in reference to doing things that you want to do such as jobs, vacation, enjoyment, etc...

I understand that you are not talking about partying, clubs, drinking or any of the things listed in God's Word. Especially Galations 5:16-19.

Therefore, let me explain my carnal viewpoint to your concerns. I truly believe that everything that we do should be done to honor God. I believe that there should be nothing put before Him. He is God and God alone. When we take a stand at enjoying life to the point that our house takes more time than the time that we give God, we are in trouble. If we value our vacation more than we value our time with God, we are in trouble. If we spend more time thinking about what job we want in this life more than we worship God, we are in trouble. Part of obedience is honoring God first above all thngs. If a job takes away from exalting the name of God then it is an idol. God states that we shall have no other God's before Him. If we are constantly thinking about going on vacation, then that is an idol.

With all of that said, I do believe that we are to be happy on this earth. Happy in the joy of the Lord. If a person seeks God's face during every breath that he or she takes than God will bring happiness to your life. The concern for going on vacation, job choice or future personal desires will become secondary. God is a God of understanding. However, He is a jealous God. The joy of the Lord is our strength. Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Lean not on your own understanding. I know that you have heard all of those verses before, but it never hurts to hear the Word of God.
Well, I probably didn't help much. You know, Jesus was a carpenter and Peter was a fisherman. I am sure that they enjoyed what they did. As stated earlier, the problem comes in when your focus, energy, time and mindset is to put the things of this world above God. If your career or vacation causes you to stumble, you shouldn't do it. If it makes you prideful, then go without. If it dishonors God in any way shape or form, dont do it. I do think that you can go on vacation and have a pleasing job without compromising your relationship with God.
Pray without ceasing and put God above all things. God will give you an answer that will be pleasing to Him which in turn will please you.

I hope that I wasn't to liberal with my answers. I am sure that some will find my answer to be somewhat "looser" than theirs. That is OK. I know that God is above all things in my life. My job and my enjoyment are always secondary to God. I work to make a living and that's it. When I go on vacation, I always witness and pass out tracks and have Bible study. I am mature enough to know what things will tempt me to sin and I stay away from them. God has shown me what to not partake. The Holy Spirit and the grace of God teaches you. Read Titus 2:11-15.

Until another time MrReader, be strong in the Lord and find comfort in your prayer closet concerning your questions.

In Christ,

Joe

D
destinysweet

There is nothing 'head in the air' about being rooted in grounded in the love of God..the fuller dimensions,heights,depths,widst and breadths of the love of Christ are not wrought within your very being without much trials and great adversity..being tested way beyond what we could possibly endure without the infilling of the Holy Spirit to empower us.

You presume much to say I am not concerned about you..this is to say I don't care about you..that I don't love you. What do you know of the love that is within me for you? You only know your own imagination.Your remarks remind me of a recent interaction with my 20 yr old daughter..how annoyed she can become if she feels that I am no comfort to her because I am not allowed to make any effort to uphold her fleshly outlook when she is being rebellious to the truth,ignoring the reality that she has done her own will and now suffers some sorrowful result..the loss of her joy..Mother! Tell me what I want to hear!Comfort me the way I want to be comforted..don't point out the difference between godly sorrow leading to repentance and the fact that I am only sorry for having ruined things by my own unwillingness to do it God's way.That my misery is of my own making!

If I love her I will be governed by God in my response to her..not my sentiment as her tenderhearted mother..moved by tears born out of selfcentered pity for her own loss..woe is me I have wrecked this thing I wanted because I was not willing to obey God.If she is suffering due to her own rebellion and expects me to coddle her flesh,when she begins to fall into self pity,falling short of true repentance,i will rob her of the work that God wants to do within her soul..she will simply have to be dissappointed and even angry momentarily when I do not respond the way she wants me too..If I love her I will represent true parental love,sturgos, embued with the higher Agape love,and only respond as the righteous Father reveals His truth to me concerning what she needs..vs what she wants.Now, she understands..and is thankful that I was strong enough to stand ..to withstand her hasty defiant tantrum.Now ,she has a clearer understanding of God's way to Life.She has seen the reality of Christ in my life..this Life of delighting in God..she will say this is the reason she believes..she watches my example..the constancy..the message simple,but unwavering and knows..this is the truth..She asks,Mother,how do I achieve this for myself?.You ask for a surrendered heart my darling..you ask,trust and obey.This is what He has been waiting for..Now God will do it for you..you aren't able any other way.

It appears you may only be seeing what you want to see,closing off to reject what I am saying because either you don't want to be reminded,or you want me to uphold something that you said and I have said nothing about what you wrote before..but I was partially moved by what you wrote to respond in the manner I did..I felt imy response aflame in my spirit...it was aflame with love divine.You can believe what you want to believe about me and the truth of my words. I see it as a moot point..you may insist this is argueable..I know it has already been resolved..there can be no more argument unless you are going to argue against the truth.

We love to make our particular circumstances seem so much more complicated than the simplicity of what is not complicated at all. we are not eager to admit we have been operating out of our flesh instead of the spirit.There are no other divisions to make..this is the simplicity of the gospel. I share because the love of Christ compells me to remind not simply you..but all..that we can have this Life..this walking according to the spirit..it is what we've been promised.God fulfils His promises.He does not tease us with impossibilities.He leads us into His perfect will and He keeps us there.

My question would be what has caused you to stop believing in the truth of what I have described,of what we have been given through the word of God written,the word made alive and rich through being recieved..believed..where and at what point did it your joy in being in Christ,in Jesus Himself ,go missing?

We are led by God to walk in the Spirit. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us...we are very capable people..thorough,accurate,trusted punctual,committed,productive,creative and what marks us the most is the attitude of our hearts and minds..the way we love..the delight we have in God spills over into everything else..we do a great job serving in whatever capacity we are called to serve..efficient and skilled,focused and considerate,people feel uplifted just to be near us.They also are convicted of sin without necessarily having to open our mouths. This is an outworking of the Spirit indwelling..It is a mysterious work indeed. We are in the process of being transformed within our souls.Jesus'lood covers our fleshl while God is transforming us..when we are truly surrendered.But if God leads..He leads us by His Spirit.. our spirit made to be one with Him leads,not our soul..we have entrusted our weak souls unto God..He is in control..we can only be right where we are in our growth and developement as He decides.We progress as He deems appropriate..no other way works..this humbles us,we want to be so perfect..but for the wrong reasons..He breaks us of all our wrong motivations..He addresses whatever is not of Life..the Life,Jesus, in us..putting it asunder,He has been given authority over all flesh..over all flesh.He is breaking down all that raises itself up against the will of God in us..all sense of security that is not of Him..this causes us to lean on Him all the more.


We are a spiritual people..we are to know each other by the spirit.Should I have to be silent simply because of where you find yourself at this time..or should I remind and encourage..hoping to inspire.I am nearing 52..the one constant in my entire life in Christ is the overwhelming knowledge that My life is not my own,that God's love and His divine will are the only reason I am still alive,being nearly murdered more times than I care to recount..that He has caused me to have this focus in the kingdom of God..this has been His doing..I am heavenly minded and it is in this Christ mindedness that I have been able to be any earthly good.I am so incredibly grateful for His mercy and His wonderful Presence enabling and empowering me to be all and to do all I have been created to be and do.I will continously share the not so secret mystery of this Life..it is God's doing, and I wish everyone could know intimately His way of being,to whatever degree He finds expediant,even while in our earthly tent.

It occcurs to me that this morning while in prayer and study,the Lord kept emphasizing the words He said to Ezekial about eating the scroll and filling his belly with it..about speaking to a rebellious house..of not being afraid of their stubborness and impudence..their hard heartedness.They will not listen to you because they will not listen to Me.

I am listening to God ,brother..I have eaten of His word and it has filled my belly and it has been sweet in my mouth..His voice is sweet..His living word has come alive in the life I now live in Christ..Jesus has caused me to live according to His promise,by His Spirit.May God restore to you and all who are not full to overflowing,pure faith,unadulterated by cynicism and contempt,real delight in this Life unburdened by what is not necesary..this Yoke so easy ,taken with gratitude and awe..this gift of light,Jesus.

S
sermonindex

MrReader, As you seek Him I am certain He will satisfy you. What follows are not my words but what I found online: "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise." (Pro 10:19) Comment: Usually, those that speak much speak much amiss, and among many words there cannot but be many idle words, which they must shortly give an account of. Those that love to hear themselves talk do not consider what work they are making for repentance; for that will be wanted, and first or last will be had, where there wanteth not sin. In most cases, along with a torrent of words is a flow of sin, which ceases not as long as that continues. Let us take heed of an old rabbinic saying: "he that multiplies words brings on or brings unto sin;"

It is therefore good to keep our mouth as with a bridle: He that refrains his lips, that often checks himself, suppresses what he has thought, and holds in that which would transpire, is a wise man; it is an evidence of his wisdom, and he therein consults his own peace. Little said is soon amended but of many words it is impossible.

"A fool uttereth all his mind, but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards." (Prov.29:11)
"He that hath knowledge spareth his words: [and] a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit." (Pro 17:27) Comment: A man of knowledge is generally a man of few words, he thinks much and says little; and though he may be communicative of his knowledge to proper persons, and at proper times, yet never speaks of it in a boasting and ostentatious way, he "restrains his words"; he puts a bridle on them; and suffers not himself to speak hastily and angrily, and in a reproachful manner, when he is provoked to it. A man of understanding is of an excellent spirit, "of a cool spirit"; in opposition to a warm fiery spirit, but a cool spirit is one that is not soon angry, calm, sedate, and not easily provoked to wrath with a river of words.

A wise man will be of few words, as being afraid of speaking amiss. He that has knowledge, and aims to do good with it, is careful, when he does speak to speak to the purpose, and says little in order that he may take time to deliberate. He spares his words, because they are better spared than ill-spent.
"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Mat 5:37 AV)

For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool’s voice is known by multitude of words." (Ecc 5:3)
A wise man once said: "if people were to use ONLY the words necessary to convey the message, then a great silence would descend upon the earth." Communication agencies are becoming extremely rich, just because people ‘want to talk’.
Be careful of your thoughts; they may become words at any moment. --Ira G.

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. – Plato
To speak and to speak well are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks. --Ben Jonson


After all is said and done, more is said than done. --Unknown

When you are arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. —Unknown

If it takes a lot of words to say what you have in mind - give it more thought. --Dennis R.

Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence. --Spanish Proverb

Never miss a good chance to shut up. –Will R.

A hotheaded woman told John Wesley, "My talent is to speak my mind." Replied Mr. Wesley, "Woman, God wouldn't care a bit if you would bury that talent."

It is reported that Winston Churchill once said: "if you want me to speak for 5 minutes give me a week to prepare, if for one hour, then I am ready now".

Of Many Useless Words there is NO End --aymon de tigliettem


God knows every word of our tongue before it is even spoken: "For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether." (Psa 139:4 )

Be swift to hear, but slow to speak ! Think before we discharge the vanity and sin under our lips. Let us take conscious and specific thought every time we open our mouth.

Remember how Isaiah was distraught after seeing the Almighty God: "Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." (Isa 6:5 AV)

Lord, you know me better than I myself, keep me from the fatal habit of thinking that I must say something on every subject and on every occasion.

Release me from craving to straighten out everybody's affairs.

Keep my mind free from the recital of endless details; give me wings to get to the point.


"The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness." (Pro 15:2 )

"A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes." (Pro 18:6 )

"A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul." (Pro 18:7 )

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? There is more hope of a fool than of him." (Pro 29:20)

C
crsschk

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

- Hamlet (III, ii, 239)


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10789&forum=34&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]CHAPTER 11: "LOQUACITY" (Excessive Verbalism)[/url]

C
crsschk

[i] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[/i] Rom 14:22

The level of liberty God lets one operate in may not coincide with that of another. We must not flaunt this liberty…and like wise…we should not attempt to impose our restraints.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8295&forum=35]OTHERS MAY, YOU CANNOT[/url] ~ by G D Watson

B
broclint

Wasn't it Hudson Taylor who said?

"Those who leave the choice to God always get the best".

Clint

S
sermonindex

WISEVIRGIN,

u have said well........

S
sermonindex

Here's where my question comes in. How do you feel about fun? About our dreams as human beings? About things we would like to do? From the conversations I've seen here, it would lead someone just lurking to think that we have to be somber monks and never laugh or fulfill a dream we have to own a home or become a tailor or take a vacation to Disney World.

The key is [b]balance[/b].

He came to give us life, and life more abundantly. If we can strike a proper balance between spiritual "soberness", and enjoying the life that God has given us, then I believe that pleases Him.

I enjoy nature. Who did God create nature for? First of all He created nature to glorify Himself... but He also created it for our pleasure and enjoyment. Just read the Psalms.

If God did not want us to have any fun at all then He would not have created the capacity in man to have fun. But it's like sex. Sex was created to procreate the human race, and for pleasure and fun between a husband and wife. Out of balance, sex can also ruin a person.

So... if God gives you the where with all to take a vacation to Disney, or the beach, or whatever... go. Enjoy it. Give Him the glory for it. Relax. Even God relaxed on the 7th day. We need it. But all things in balance.

It is possible to do all these things AND glorify God in doing so.

Krispy

D
destinysweet

Busted! I resemble that!

S
sermonindex

krispy , that is also a great post bro......

Z
Zionshield

concerning "OTHERS MAY, YOU CANNOT"

Fantastic! I've been telling my wife about that old tract...now she can read it. Thanks.

M
MrReader

I wanted to come back and thank you all for your responses. Forgive me for disappearing suddenly. It wasn't out of frustration. It was out of confusion. When things get confusing, I get alone with God until the confusion is gone.

I still don't have an answer. Asking for advice from others has only proven to cause confusion.For whatever reason, I am not hearing God on this subject. Probably because it's the one answer I would like to have more than any other.

I am all for dying to self. I want nothing more than to please God. The problem is, I don't know how to die to this - or even if I should. I have tried in every way I know how. I see both sides of the issue. 1) We're here on this earth and I can't believe that God would have us lead somber lives totally devoid of "fun" or "pleasure" in living it. 2) Dying to self is what we do to become more like Christ and this is our number one aspiration and our heart's greatest desire. This takes precedent above all else.

To be more direct, I do want to have a different job and live in a different state. I'm not desiring wealth or long life or material possessions. But, I don't want to rationalize this, either, in order for my "desire" to be "allowed." Just as all sin is not equal, are all "earthly desires" equal?

I know I'm trying too hard to do what's right. I know this because I'm not free from this yet.
I don't want to go against the Father, but I can't imagine that He wants us to not have "dreams" (I'm using this term for lack of a better one) and to enjoy the earth that He created. Earthly fathers enjoy seeing their children happy and accomplishing things they dream. Wouldn't this apply even more to our heavenly Father who is perfect?

Again, I'm not trying to rationalize this to "get my way." It's not my goal. If I knew God wanted me to stay where I was for the rest of my earthly life, this would no longer be an issue to me. I could easily put it out of my mind.

On the other side, I'm afraid I'm being legalistic and that scares me. I don't want to be scared into no action at all.

Perhaps there are no answers I can get from others after all. Some responses come carelessly and inflict condemnation due to giving a "pat," standard response instead of trying to hear the heart behind the question. Perhaps the wise answers are being lost among them so I can't see them. I just wish I knew what is hindering me from hearing from God on this.

It's a very difficult thing to live our lives for Him and yet live our lives on this earth as if we had the whole of it to live here.

G
ginnyrose

Perhaps there are no answers I can get from others after all

This is the answer to the questions for which there are no direct scriptural directives.

God has wired us to enjoy our work because we are to do it joyfully...remember when God created the world how after each day he looked at it and saw that it was good? Do you not think he took pleasure in seeing that?

Blessings
ginnyrose

L
learn


wisevirgin wrote:
MrReader, As you seek Him I am certain He will satisfy you. What follows are not my words but what I found online: "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise." (Pro 10:19) Comment: Usually, those that speak much speak much amiss, and among many words there cannot but be many idle words, which they must shortly give an account of. Those that love to hear themselves talk do not consider what work they are making for repentance; for that will be wanted, and first or last will be had, where there wanteth not sin. In most cases, along with a torrent of words is a flow of sin, which ceases not as long as that continues. Let us take heed of an old rabbinic saying: "he that multiplies words brings on or brings unto sin;"

It is therefore good to keep our mouth as with a bridle: He that refrains his lips, that often checks himself, suppresses what he has thought, and holds in that which would transpire, is a wise man; it is an evidence of his wisdom, and he therein consults his own peace. Little said is soon amended but of many words it is impossible.

"A fool uttereth all his mind, but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards." (Prov.29:11)
"He that hath knowledge spareth his words: [and] a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit." (Pro 17:27) Comment: A man of knowledge is generally a man of few words, he thinks much and says little; and though he may be communicative of his knowledge to proper persons, and at proper times, yet never speaks of it in a boasting and ostentatious way, he "restrains his words"; he puts a bridle on them; and suffers not himself to speak hastily and angrily, and in a reproachful manner, when he is provoked to it. A man of understanding is of an excellent spirit, "of a cool spirit"; in opposition to a warm fiery spirit, but a cool spirit is one that is not soon angry, calm, sedate, and not easily provoked to wrath with a river of words.

A wise man will be of few words, as being afraid of speaking amiss. He that has knowledge, and aims to do good with it, is careful, when he does speak to speak to the purpose, and says little in order that he may take time to deliberate. He spares his words, because they are better spared than ill-spent.
"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Mat 5:37 AV)

For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool’s voice is known by multitude of words." (Ecc 5:3)
A wise man once said: "if people were to use ONLY the words necessary to convey the message, then a great silence would descend upon the earth." Communication agencies are becoming extremely rich, just because people ‘want to talk’.
Be careful of your thoughts; they may become words at any moment. --Ira G.

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. – Plato
To speak and to speak well are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks. --Ben Jonson


After all is said and done, more is said than done. --Unknown

When you are arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. —Unknown

If it takes a lot of words to say what you have in mind - give it more thought. --Dennis R.

Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence. --Spanish Proverb

Never miss a good chance to shut up. –Will R.

A hotheaded woman told John Wesley, "My talent is to speak my mind." Replied Mr. Wesley, "Woman, God wouldn't care a bit if you would bury that talent."

It is reported that Winston Churchill once said: "if you want me to speak for 5 minutes give me a week to prepare, if for one hour, then I am ready now".

Of Many Useless Words there is NO End --aymon de tigliettem


God knows every word of our tongue before it is even spoken: "For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether." (Psa 139:4 )

Be swift to hear, but slow to speak ! Think before we discharge the vanity and sin under our lips. Let us take conscious and specific thought every time we open our mouth.

Remember how Isaiah was distraught after seeing the Almighty God: "Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." (Isa 6:5 AV)

Lord, you know me better than I myself, keep me from the fatal habit of thinking that I must say something on every subject and on every occasion.

Release me from craving to straighten out everybody's affairs.

Keep my mind free from the recital of endless details; give me wings to get to the point.


"The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness." (Pro 15:2 )

"A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes." (Pro 18:6 )

"A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul." (Pro 18:7 )

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? There is more hope of a fool than of him." (Pro 29:20)

C
Candy_3

I have struggled with this problem too. I thought I understood denying self. But then after denying self, I became so legalistic (I think this is the word) as to question everything. An easy example: I started wondering whether it is of God to go and sit at the ice cream shop with a dish of ice cream or should I rather stay home and read/study scripture (which I love)? What exactly is considered "in moderation" if there is indeed this possibility? How exactly do I fit all that I do (as a human) into denying myself, if I must indeed follow Him and not my own ways? From what I understand, I am here to preach the gospel unto others, but I have others telling me that the scripture never said that you can't have ONE drink (which I wouldn't do anyway, but just for the points' sake) or go out shopping with friends. Another struggle I've been having: When I got saved I was in school (secular). I couldn't stand it any longer and realized that none of this matters. I will not need it for Him in the end....on the other hand, do I do it so that I have an income? But most things to learn are worldly things...even most christian schools are based on secular positions. The issue that I might be having is that all positions are intended (from man's perspective) to be secular. How do I choose a position that will Glorify the Lord? Or should I just not do any schooling and preach the gospel that way?

...in the end, all I can think of is.

"When are we going to get/be serious about being serious?"

which I think came from Ravenhill. He is right, but I stuggle with the concept of:

"Live in this world, but not of this world".

How is it done? Somewhere I am lost and confused.

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