saved??

i have seen a number of references on various threads here about a persons salvation, other than the person writing. for example, mother Teresa.

whether or not Mother Teresa was "Saved" is not for us to speculate upon. We can know our own convictions and faith; and our relationship with God is personal. to say that Mother Teresa was not saved, that she died and has gone to hell, is well beyond our own capacity to determine.

it is up to God.

i am not saying there is more than one way to salvation. i am saying that it's really none of our business who is and is not saved. it is between them and God.

bub

i don't want discord. but rather, proper respect for the deceased (and others.) i had seen a couple of references about MT not being saved, but didn't respond because it would have disrupted the topic of the thread. i could have just let it go, but it has been nagging me. She was a great leader and motivated many to charitiable works in the name of Jesus. what i think about Catholocism is irrelevant. and any speculation about her personal relationship with God is so much chaff.

(for all i know Hitler could have confessed at the moment of his death and become saved.)

bub

THE CHURCH
Acts 2:38-3:1
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."[B] 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.[/B].
What was HIS message?
John 14:6-7
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Who can distingish who?
Matt 7:15-29
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16[b]Ye[/b] shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
KJV

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Who is the Rock?
Deut 32:4
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

Matt 16:15-20
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
NAS

Who is He coming back for?
Col 1:24-27

24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions,[b] for the sake of his body, which is the church.[/b] 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness- 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27[b] To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery,[u] which is Christ in you,[/u] the hope of glory.[/b]

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore,[b] and teach all nations,[/b] baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20[b] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/b] and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

I'm one of those that you're referring to, Bub... so let me respond.

I didnt say what I said about MT from a place of malice or hatred, in fact I more than pointed out that she did far more than almost all when it came to her humantarian efforts... and on that level she has my utmost respect.

However, in her own words she stated what her "salvation" was based on... and it wasnt the gospel. It wasnt the truth. It was a Catholic "gospel" (if you can it that, since the word gospel means "good news"). It was a works based salvation.

I believe her motivation for the work she did came from a real heart of compassion. But when I refer to a works based salvation I am referring the hellish demonic doctrines of the Catholic Church. And I am not drawing these conclusions about her... these are facts. Her own words. Her personal statement of faith.

And the point I was making when I brought her name up is a valid one... there is NOTHING we can do to earn our salvation. NOTHING.(I love it when you quote me with absolutely no context at all...)

Yet this is not what you're saying or implying with this thread. You're implying that God may overlook her misguided belief in a false religion, and grant her salvation based on what she did. The good works she did.

Well, if thats the case then lets just burn our Bibles because they arent true anymore. (But then, you dont believe the Bible is the inerrant perfect Word of God anyway... so why should I be surprised?)

And people line right up behind you on this thread an echo a hearty "AMEN" to this foolishness. This is complete hogwash.

You want to turn it around to make it seem like I am bashing the dead. I'm not. She is a good example to use when discussing works based salvation. And her own words, her own writings, tell us this.

So I am not saying anything that MT hasnt alread said. In fact, the writings that were released after her death revealed a woman who found hardly any satisfaction in the good works she did when it came to her hope in salvation... because there was no hope for her (or anyone else) in the false religion... the Roman Catholic Church.

Lately there has been a lot compromisers on this forum who have taken me to task on a number of subjects here. More and more there are those present who dont like what I have to say about the RCC. But I'm not going to change what I say. If everyone is in agreement that we need to unite with the Catholic Church (and I am not referring to individual Catholics, I'm referring to the institution), and that it doesnt matter what we believe, and that true and solid doctrine isnt important... then this is no longer the forum for me. I will not be a part of compromise.

Krispy

Even with all of that, it is not our place to judge anyone. We can judge their comments using biblical truth as a comparison. But God alone judges each of His servants. They are not ours to judge. It is before Him alone will a man(woman) be saved.

I agree with you 100%. I am not her judge. But I do have a responsibility, when confronted with her own words, to judge whether what she said she believed was true or not.

A better way of saying it is... based on her own words and confession, we can conclude that she was not saved. That, to me, is not judging her. It's just a simple statement of my understanding of her faith based upon her own confession.

Krispy

Onesimus4God said:

Even with all of that, it is not our place to judge anyone.

No disrespect to you Onesimus4God or to anyone, I'm saying this to [u]ALL[/u] People. I get so tired of people saying: Don't Judge, blah, blah, blah. It's bad enough when the people of the world say this but when Christians say this to??? Hogwash!!!

[url=http://www.gospeljohn.com/judgenot.htm]Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged![/url]

Miccah,

i am definately not saying that we should not "go and make disciples." (double negative, sorry)

and lost souls are our business. but in the end, who is and is not saved is between them and God. and we should not make a practice of presuming we know God's will for each soul, and relationship with each soul.

MT did say some things that you or we disagree with, that reflect works based faith, but a works based faith that focuses on imitating the life of Christ, of walking the talk, well, isn't the Faith that underpins such a life real?? that she faced and dealt with such depression and exercised her faith so strongly in spite of it is a real credit to her and shouldn't be taken as a failure.

we can and should address poor or misleading gospel interpretations, those that do not hinge on faith alone. but we should not be in the habit of stating the disposition of others at the hand of God. (besides being unseemly it puts a person in the seat of judgment.)

bub

Krispy said:

A better way of saying it is... based on her own words and confession, we can conclude that she was not saved. That, to me, is not judging her. It's just a simple statement of my understanding of her faith based upon her own confession.

I have a big enough plank in my own eye to work on.

Oooh yes indeed. It doesnt come across on the computer screen, but when I write things like that about dear people like MT I do so with much fear and trembling, knowing that I am certainly not the poster child for holy Christian living. I strive for it, but so far I fall short daily... some days worse than others. But the difference, it doesnt matter because my sins past, present & future have been covered by the blood of Jesus. And thats where my faith lies... alone... and without anything I can do to merit it.

Thats the whole point.

Krispy

Firstly, it is impossible for anyone who has read Mother Teresa's autobiography, and is a born again disciple of the Lord Jesus, to assume the she was a believer, in the Biblical sense. She refused to lead anyone to the Lord Jesus, claiming that it was beneath the dignity of the faith of the individual to do so. The doctrine of the mothers of mercy was, and is, to offer comfort to the dying and suffering, yet to allow them to pass into eternity believing in God on their own terms.

The Hindus remained committed to a plethora of demon Idols, the Muslim to Allah, etc., as the Mothers helped them cope in a bit more comfort before there awful and eternal slide into Hades, day after day. That is the ministry of mother Teresa. She greased the slide.

Sounds harsh, but if you doubt, read this from her lips. She did not pray through the Lord Jesus, but preferred "the family of Joseph"; sometimes to jesus, sometimes to Joseph, and of course, Mother Mary.

Where does your thoughts lead you to assume that Christians don't judge. I think you are confusing eternal Judgement, with our temporal walk with God. Manassah, the savage King, and the Word testifies the most Satanic and wicked, could well be in the Kingdom of Heaven, as he repented, and returned to the Lord. Multitudes who lost children, and loved ones, surely would have judged him strait into the fire, but it appears that God's mercy was greater. I'm glad that this is so. I don't want anything to do with His part;only He can, for only He dispenses true Justice and mercy.

On the other hand, if I don't JUDGE fruit and doctrine, I will die. IF YOU DON'T JUDGE FRUIT AND DOCTRINE, YOU WILL DIE. Why? You will be deceived. Doctrine, in Christianity, is discerning the truth, and acting on it according to the Word of God! Bad doctrine: what the cults and deceivers teach, will align you with Satan, and the powers of evil, and God, reluctantly, will throw you to the fire. So, is it necessary to judge?

The holy Spirit states through Jesus that he will lead us into all truth. In another passage, the word states that" for this reason are men condemned; they did not receive the LOVE OF THE TRUTH.

If through our misjudgement, or lack of discernment, we become an enemy to the Lord, the Lord will reject us. The ones who love and practice the lies are away from God's camp.[..Rev:22vs. 15.

You can't judge fruit by reading a how to book, or really even reading the Bible, yet we are commanded to judge fruit. How? the Bible says that In your Light, we see light. We bear fruit, and see fruit. The only way to judge fruit is by the Holy Spirit, WHO LEADS US INTO ALL TRUTH! Non-Christians can never see the truth, or the fruits of the SPIRIT, but when they judge, they judge with an unregenerated mind, and thought process, that must always lead them into the LIE, BECAUSE, they are in Darkness, until they are born again. Jesus said, "I am the light of the World".

I see this thread as somewhat of a trap, even, to lure Christians into confusion about acting on sound Judgement and Holy discernment. John the Babtist was filled with discernment, and declared judgement upon all who didn't are wouldn't repent back to holiness, calling them Snakes, and warning them of wrath to come.

John was mild compared to Jesus' ministry, We can go on and on and on. Paul, Moses, Samuel; they judged Righteous judgement. If you are a Pastor[ I like Shepard], and you see the WOLF coming, and do not warn, you are condemned by God. QUESTION?????? How does the
pastor Know a man is a Wolf?

Well, mother Teresa is a posthumous leader. A leader hero who many adore in her death, and pray to, by the way. She is maybe more dangerous in her death, than in her life, as she transcended the Roman Catholic cult into Universal praise as a holy woman; even a SAINT...maybe more than any woman in the last few hundred years.

So, therefore, IF I accept her as a holy woman, it stands to reason that I must accept her belief system also, as the vehicle that got her there. "A HOLY SAINT AND VENERATED ONE!". But,, my judgement compares her doctrine, and fruit, with the Word of God, and that agrees with the Holy Spirit within me, to know that she was a lady WOLF, a deceiver. Useless, really, a worker of evil, all dressed up like real disciple of Christ.

Jesus said "when you judge, judge righteous judgement".

"God is not willing that any should perish, but all come to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus" God loves you, and desires to make you his child, by giving you His own Spirit to come into your being. This is very real, and necessary for you to BEGIN to judge rightly. This is why Jesus died, that all who received Him, gave he power to BECOME A CHILD OF GOD!

BROTHERTOM

Right on, brother Tom.

Krispy

"The Hindus remained committed to a plethora of demon Idols, the Muslim to Allah, etc., as the Mothers helped them cope in a bit more comfort before there awful and eternal slide into Hades, day after day. That is the ministry of mother Teresa. She greased the slide."

Perhaps she recognized that, on death's bed Hindus and Muslims were not going to convert after a lifetime of practice.

Wouldn't Christ comfort such people without demanding what they could not give?

God's Mercy exists, as well as God's Judgement and Justice.

It is not for you to say who is saved and who is not.

As for Hades, why would a loving God create a person such as Mother Teresa, knowing in advance that they would "grease the slide"? Does a loving God create people destined for Hell?

Something is wrong with this picture.

When good people are called evil, watch out for those pointing the finger. that's who is holding the grease bucket.

bub

Your reply is straight from the flesh and something that I have not witnessed for some time here.

Probably because Bubba hasnt actively posted on here for some time...

Love ya, Bubba, you know that. But your theology is something out of a science fiction book. :-)

Need to base your theology on a different Book!

Krispy

I didnt say what I said about MT from a place of malice or hatred, in fact I more than pointed out that she did far more than almost all when it came to her humantarian efforts... and on that level she has my utmost respect.

How far do we go with this??

Do you know how many Christians believe that Elvis Presley is with Jesus? And they will get mad at you if you say he might not be.

Why?? because the gospel has been changed to suit anyone that is good, anyone that sang a gospel tune, anyone that went to church or held a bible, anyone that gave a bowl of soup to the poor. And I say again, what happened to putting our faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone?

If Mother Theresa put her faith in a works based system of man, she's lost. If her faith was in the Catholic church and not in Jesus Christ, she's lost. That goes for everyone of us.

We must return to the purity of the gospel, Jesus Christ and Him crucified and not be gullible by the good actions that the world exhibits.

but we should not be in the habit of stating the disposition of others at the hand of God. (besides being unseemly it puts a person in the seat of judgment.)

Explained:
When God judges the world of sin, it certainly will be more than just giving an opinion whether someone is guilty or not. He will be giving the sentence, which is eternal damnation for those who Jesus doesn't know and he will carry it out. The truth is we are all guilty of sin. Has Jesus declared us not guilty or not by HIS blood is the question? Have we allowed him to give us a pass and declared us "NOT GUILTY" by pardon. Have we pleaded for his forgiveness and ask for HIS mercy and grace. When we give an opinion about anyones sin and any sin, it is not judging, I repeat it is not judging. If I had the idea that you or someone else had broken an earthly law and thought that you or the other person in question deserved to be arrested, would that make me a police officer, if I only stated the fact but did not have the authority to arrest you.
Use some spiritual sense bub and all you other people that use that worldly term about judging in that wrong context that it's often used.

Do you know how many Christians believe that Elvis Presley is with Jesus?

You mean he's not?

Seriously tho... it's amazing how many people think Elvis was a Christian based on the fact that he sang real good on a couple of gospel albums. Johnny Paycheck recorded a gospel album... and he was a sick twisted child molesting wretch.

Elvis did believe in Jesus... but Elvis also believed in eating pills like they were candy. He also believed in fornication with gusto.

Serious Christians who ought to know better! C'mon...

I dont know anything about Elvis' relationship to God. He may very well have gotten saved 5 minutes before he died... we dont know.

But the point is, as good as Elvis sang on some gospel records... as much money as he gave away (and he did give away a ton of money)... as much humantarian work as MT did... as much help MT gave to children in 3rd world countries around the world... it is all as filthy rags. Nothing more.

It couldnt add one iota to their being saved.

There is only ONE WAY to God.

Krispy

Look at Oprah... she is a real humantarian, and gives outrageous amounts of money to help the poor and oppressed. She has a heart of compassion.

Anyone want to tell me that she is saved?

She's as "new age" as you can possible be.

I love that line in Casting Crowns song "What If His People Prayed" where they sing "... stop asking Oprah what to do!"

Amen, Casting Crowns.

Krispy