Tribulation Or Rapture -smith

[b]Tribulation Or Rapture[/b]
[i]by Oswald J. Smith[/i]

Why did the Lord Jesus conceal the Secret Rapture in Matthew twenty-four? How are we to explain the silence of the Church for centuries concerning it? What about the passages that have been used to support it? Have we been lulling the Church into a false security? Are there any outstanding Christian leaders who believe that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation?
In my first book on Prophecy I asked the questions: "Will the Church pass through the Tribulation or be raptured out of it?" In answering I made this statement: "I have always held the view that the Rapture precedes the Revelation by some seven years, and that the Church, therefore, will not go through the Tribulation, but I do not want to be dogmatic about it and, if God should reveal the contrary to me, I will gladly accept it". Hence, you see, I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal.
Now, after years of study and prayer, I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist, and that Christ will come at the close and not at the beginning of that awful period. I believed the other theory simply because I was taught it by W. E. Blackstone in his book "Jesus is Coming," the Scofield Reference Bible and Prophetic Conferences and Bible Schools; but when I began to search the Scriptures for myself I discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible that upholds the pre-tribulation theory, but that the uniform teaching of the Word of God is of a post-tribulation Rapture: pre-millennial always. everywhere pre-millennial, but post-tribulation.
MY FIRST AWAKENING

My first awakening to this important truth came one day in 1925, when I was spending a few days in a cottage at Stoney Lake, Ontario. One of my neighbors, Frank Edmonds by name, simply made the suggestion to me. I opposed it at once. "Why," I exclaimed, "however could that be? What about the Scriptures? The teaching of a pre-tribulation Rapture is clear and indisputable." But he quietly affirmed that I was wrong and emphasized the truth concerning the Last Trump. Of course, I was not convinced. I almost ridiculed the very idea of such a possibility. And there the matter rested.
One day, in the early twenties, I began preaching on Prophecy. I had taken my people through Daniel without difficulty. Then came Mark 13. Luke 21, and Matthew 24 and 25. But. lo and behold, no sooner had I started on Matthew 24 than I got into trouble. I had announced that I would deal with Matthew 24 at the next service. Hundreds had gathered. I was in a maze, for I was perplexed. So I took a verse here and there through the chapter and thus satisfied the people for that hour at least. But now the next meeting was coming. What was I to say?
I need not point out that there is no pretribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. The Second Coming is unmistakably placed "immediately after the Tribulation" (verse 29), and I was forced to the conclusion that if the Rapture was to be ‘before" the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ would certainly have given some hint of it at least. He was dealing with the End-Time of the Age. It is unthinkable that He would have spoken so minutely of the Tribulation without stating that the Church would escape. Instead, He purposely led His hearers to the belief that His followers would be in it. Hence, I was staggered, nor could I honestly defend my previous position.
So, when I again faced the people, I said sufficient to let them know that I questioned my former stand and saw evidence of a post-tribulation Rapture. For, as I read Matthew 24 and 25, I saw that many things, as prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ, simply had to take place before Jesus could come, namely: "All these things" (verse 33), especially the prediction regarding the preaching of the Gospel. See Mark 13:10, and note the significance of the word "first". Thus, since God’s future program could not be set aside, there could be no "any moment expectation" of Christ’s Return. We are to watch, watch as prophecy after prophecy is fulfilled, ever looking forward to His Appearing; and, in the End-Time, to watch as never before, and to always be ready, for none can ever know how quickly the events predicted might come to pass and Christ return.
MY "ANY MOMENT" THEORY

Then followed the next step. There came into my hands a copy of a book by Dr. Henry W. Frost, then the Home Director of the China Inland Mission. It was entitled "Matthew 24 and the Revelation," a volume of over 300 pages. I fairly devoured it. Portions of it I read through twice. It was most conclusive in its arguments for a post-tribulation Rapture. About the same time I got hold of a book by James H. McConkey, called "The Book of Revelation," and another—perhaps the best of all—by Edmund Shackleton (England), entitled "Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation?" Before I had read them through I was firmly convinced that there would be no Rapture before the Tribulation, and that I had done wrong in promising the Church an escape instead of preparing her for the terrible ordeal that must most surely be awaited. My "any moment" theory could not be sustained. In fact, the very first statement in the latter book, which was written about 1890, amazed me beyond measure and I was fairly staggered as I grasped its significance. Let me quote it verbatim:
All who held the pre-millennial Coming of Christ were, till about sixty years ago, of one mind on the subject. About that time a new view was promulgated that the Coming of Christ was not one event, but that it was divided into stages, in fact, that Christ comes twice from heaven to earth, but the first time only as far as the air. This first descent, it is said, will be for the purpose of removing the Church from the world, and will occur before the Great Tribulation under Antichrist. This they call "The coming for His saints" or "Secret Rapture." The second part of the Coming is said to take place when Christ appears in glory and destroys the Antichrist. This they call "The coming with His saints."
Apart from the test of the Word, which is the only final one, there are certain reasons why this doctrine should be viewed with suspicion. It appears to be little more than sixty years old; and it seems highly improbable that. if scriptural it could have escaped the scrutiny of the many devoted Bible students whose writings have been preserved to us from the past. More especially in the writings of the early Christian fathers would we expect to find some notice of this doctrine, if it had been taught by the Apostles; but those who have their works declare that they betray no knowledge of a theory that the Church would escape the Tribulation under Antichrist, or that there would be any "coming" except that spoken of in Matthew 24, as occurring in manifest glory "after the Tribulation." This is all the more significant, because these writers bestowed much attention upon the subject of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation. Augustine, referring to Daniel 7, wrote: "But he who reads this passage even half asleep cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church."
Then when I remembered that the death of Peter, his prediction of corruption and apostasy after his decease, the death of Paul, and many other events had to occur before the Rapture—especially the evangelization of the world (Mark 13:10 and Matt. 24:14)—my "any moment" theory took wings and fled.
Last of all, I ran across "The Great Tribulation—The Church’s Supreme Test" by John B. Scruby, the most convincing; the most unanswerable of all. It deals with every point minutely and proves conclusively that the Tribulation precedes the Rapture.
Recently I got hold of that remarkable book "Tribulation to Glory" by H. A. Baker. in which he wrote: "For eighteen centuries the fundamental principle of tribulation to glory was the universal belief of the truly born-again members of the Church", and then he goes on to show that the new pre-tribulation rapture teaching was first proclaimed as a direct revelation by a woman in Edward Irving’s church, and then taken up by John Nelson Darby (and the Scofield Reference Bible) in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Church for eighteen hundred years.
"Beginning with the Irvingite woman, then propagated by John N. Darby about 1830, this new ‘spirit-inspired’ doctrine during the last century has come down to us until it has become popular. George Muller opposed it; so did Benjamin Wills Newton; so did Dr. S. P. Tregelles and other Brethren, but all in vain." But now, thank God, large numbers of our leading Bible Teachers are coming back to the original position.
GOD’S WORD

I discovered that no time element is ever mentioned so far as the Rapture is concerned, except as it is related to the Resurrection. And that the Resurrection is always placed at the time of the sounding of the Last Trump (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This Trump, without doubt, closes the Tribulation. There is no eighth. The saints are rewarded (Rev. 11:18). The "mystery of God", is then finished, there is time (delay) no longer (Rev. 10:6 and 7), and the Resurrection, of course, immediately precedes the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:16).
Naturally, I thought of 2 Thessalonians 2:7: "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". But then I learned from the Greek that the second "he" is the Antichrist, and that the Greek does not say "taken out of the way," but "revealed in the midst," or, "born out of the midst." In other words, lawlessness will be restrained until the appointed time for the lawless one, the Antichrist, to appear. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit at all. That is a Scofield Bible assumption. The Holy Spirit and the Church remain to the end of the Age.
Then, too. I thought of Luke 21:36 and of Revelation 3:10. But Noah, I remembered, "escaped" by preservation. Daniel "was kept" and protected in the lion’s den. The three Hebrew children were "kept" though in a burning fiery furnace. None of them were taken out. Rather they were kept, preserved, protected while in, and thus they escaped. Why not the Church? Note that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 finds the saints in trouble, in tribulation, and resting only at the close. In fact the first two chapters of 2 Thessalonians cannot be interpreted in any other way. Chapter two, verse one, is most explicit. "Now we beseech you, brethren", writes Paul, "by the coming (Revelation) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (the Rapture) unto Him". There is here no separation between the Rapture and the Revelation. The Coming is the one and only Coming spoken of throughout the two chapters, the Coming described in chapter one, verses seven and eight.
I learned, too, that the word for "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4: was only used in two other places, and, in both cases, it meant "returning with" and not "remaining at" the place of meeting. When the brethren from Rome met Paul, they immediately returned to the city with him. When the Virgins met the Bridegroom they accompanied Him back to the wedding. When the saints meet Christ in the Air, as He comes to judge the nations and establish His Kingdom on earth, they will return with Him. There is no Scripture that says they will remain for some seven years in the Air.
In 1 Thessalonians each chapter closes with a reference to the Second Coming, but no distinction is made. As Christ descends with His angels after the Tribulation, the saints ascend, and, meeting Him in the Air, turn and continue with Him back to the earth. How long He remains in the Air, following the meeting with the Church is nowhere revealed. "The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints" (1 Thess. 3:13), is unquestionably the Revelation, after the Tribulation, simply because the words, "with all His saints" are added. But why infer another, a previous Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1:10, or 5:23? It is all one and the same. There is no Secret Rapture. That theory must be deliberately read into the passage. There is no Rapture in Revelation until chapter nineteen is reached.
I had been taught that the Greek word "parousia" always referred to the Rapture and that other words were used for the Coming of Christ in glory after the Tribulation. But I found that this is not true. Parousia is used for the latter, too. See 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
While it is clear that the Church must endure the wrath of the Antichrist, it is certain that the Church will not have to endure the wrath of God. When His judgments are poured out on the Antichrist and his followers, the Church will be divinely protected by God even as the Israelites were protected when His wrath was poured upon the Egyptians—not by being raptured, but by being kept.
We might go through all the writers of the New Testament, and we would fail to discover any indication of the so-called "two-stages" of our Lord’s Coming. Peter, James and John tell the same story. There is no Scripture for a pre-tribulation rapture. That theory had to be invented by man. Search and see. There is no verse in the Bible that even mentions it.
I discovered that nearly all evangelical missionary leaders believe that there must be representatives in the Church of Christ from every tribe, kindred, tongue and nation, and not just from the so-called civilized world, and that, therefore, the only way to hasten the Coming of Christ is by evangelizing the remaining unreached peoples of earth. Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said, "the gospel must first be published among all nations" (Mark 13:10) "and then shall the end come" (Matt. 24:14). Hence, the greatest incentive to missionary work is the Second Coming of Christ.
SPIRITUAL PREPAREDNESS

I am sure that with the true child of God it is not a question of preference but of truth. Does God’s Word say so? Why then rebel? Is not His plan best? Besides, what difference does it make so long as we are ready? "Spiritual Preparedness" is the only important factor after all.
I wonder if we have been lulling the Church into a false security? Can it be that we have been preaching an easy escape? Ought we to prepare the Church for the greatest of all ordeals? Should not our teaching harden her for the fires of the Tribulation? What kind of soldiers are we training? I am afraid that we have been very guilty and that God will certainly hold us responsible for the type of Christian our preaching is producing. We need men and women today of the martyr spirit. The test of the Inquisition is coming again and woe betide the pre-millennialists who are not ready. The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution.
VOICES OF OTHERS

Now if I were to go into the subject in detail and attempt to deal with the numerous passages, both for and against, I would simply be overlapping. Others have already done this most ably, far better than I can, and so, if you are really interested, I would suggest that you secure the books that have been written on the subject and study them prayerfully and with an open mind before taking sides. A great many have been written by men on both sides of the Atlantic. The following are among the best that have been published in Great Britain and you may procure most of them from THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ADVENT TESTIMONY, I DONALD WAY, CHELMSFORD, ESSEX, CM2 9JB, the organization that publishes the Post-Tribulation magazine Watching and Waiting, edited by James Payne.
Here are the books:
Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation? (by Edmund Shackleton); Christ’s Second Coming (by S. P. Tregelles) [these two are scarce]; Our Lord Cometh (by W. J. Rowlands); The Coming of the Son of Man (by Rev. E. J. Poole-Connor); The Second Advent of our Lord, Not Secret, but in Manifested Glory (by B. W. Newton); One Second Coming of Christ (by W. J. Rowlands); The First Resurrection (by S. P. Tregelles); Touching the Coming of the Lord (by Dan Crawford); The Saints’ Rest and Rapture (by Frank H. White); The Second Coming of Christ (by George Muller). Send for their catalogue.
The following have been published in North America: The Blessed Hope (by Professor George E. Ladd). Dr. Ladd teaches in Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena. It is a masterly volume and it goes into both the history and doctrine of both the Pre-Tribulation and the Post-Tribulation Advent. "Will Christ’s Coming he in two stages?" (by Norman F. Douty).
I have a list of nearly seventy Bible Teachers who have proclaimed this view of the Return of Christ. Among them, in addition to those who have written the above books, there are such names as W. J. Erdman, Charles R. Erdman. Dr. Campbell Morgan, Bishop Frank Houghton, Dr. A. B. Simpson, Dr. J. W. Thirtle, Dr. Charles T. Cook, Alexander Reese, Dr. Horatius Bonar, Dr. Adolph Saphir, Henry Varley, Dr. Nathaniel West, David Baron, H. W. Soltau, Dr. Bergin, Dr. Harold J. Ockenga, and many others. To ignore the convictions of such spiritual leaders is impossible. Deference must be given to their views.
These views I would sum up by quoting from Watching and Waiting—"We believe that this was the teaching of our Lord and His Apostles. We believe it was held by the Early Church and by all in the Middle Ages who had any light on the Second Advent. We believe, too, that it was the teaching of the Early Brethren and that no other view was generally accepted among them until the Any Moment. Secret Rapture, Pre-Tribulation, or Two-Stage Coming theory was taught by Edward Irving, as a result of a vision received by a woman in his church. Thus Any Moment teaching is a ‘novel’ doctrine".
MY FINAL APPEAL

Beloved, the shadows are darkening. The day is drawing to a close. It is now Saturday night in the history of the Church. The times of the Gentiles have almost run their course. Events are fast shaping for the end. The Antichrist will soon be here.
One fact and one only is important—Christ is coming. Of that there can be no doubt. One question and one only is vital—Are we ready?
We may differ on minor details of prophecy. We may disagree as to the time of His Appearing. We may not see eye to eye regarding the order of prophetic events. But one thing is certain—He is coming. We will be with Him. The Millennium is at hand and soon now we shall know all. Therefore, let us love one another sincerely and labour together "till He Come".
If I am mistaken I will know it then. Hence, let us agree to disagree agreeably. God knows our hearts. He knows that we love Him and that is all that really matters. If I love Him and you love Him, we will love each other. Soon the day will break and all the shadows flee away. Meanwhile I am "looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2 :13).

1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

NT:4536
salpigx (sal'-pinx); perhaps from NT:4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation):
KJV - a trumpet:

Rev 11:15
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
(from New International Version)

And\t2532\t
the\t3588\t
seventh\t1442\t
angel\t32\t
sounded;\t4537\t
and\t2532\t
there were\t1096\t
voices\t5456\t
great\t3173\t
in\t1722\t
\t3588\t
heaven,\t3772\t
saying,\t3004\t
are become\t1096\t
the\t\t
kingdoms\t\t
The\t3588\t
kingdoms\t932\t
\t3588\t
of this world\t2889

NT:4537

salpizo (sal-pid'-zo); from NT:4536; to trumpet, i.e. sound a blast (literally or figuratively):
KJV - (which are yet to) sound (a trumpet).

Matt 27:50-52
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
(from New International Version)

Glad to see that Mr. Smith holds that the Church will go through Tribulation, from a Scriptural perspective.

The common sense perspective says, "what goes around comes around." Over the ages the Church has been responsible for so much misery here on earth. Think about it. The Crusades, the witch trials . . . . the list is quite long and millions have been persecuted, tortured and put to death by the Church.

why Would the Church be spared? Our Lord is a God of Justice.

bub

broClint,

you are right about there being a true Church. yet, it doesn't meet in a common place or service, but is made up of individual believers spread throughout various denominations.

putting these faithful people through the Tribulation would not be just.

Religious leaders, however, those in authority over the historic and present denominations of the Church, and their tithing, war promoting, consumption motivated, ritual practicing congregations, well that's another matter altogether. these are those who have abundance, but look away from the needy in the world, those who DO NOT praise and thank God for the CHALLENGES IN THEIR LIVES, but whine and complain about the car, the neighbors, the whatever, not seeing that God blesses us with challenges because we have lessons to learn and because He loves us.

doesn't this "Church" deserve to go through the Tribulation?

bub

Bubba... the church you are referring to is a different Church than Jesus was referring to. True believers in Jesus Christ were not guilty of persecution, etc. In fact, for 2,000 years true believers in Jesus Christ have been persecuted... and often times by the so-called "church". Not just the hellish Roman Catholic Church, but also by men like Luther and Calvin. This is why I call myself a follower of Christ, and not a Protestant.

I know you have tried to clarify your first post, but it just bothers me when I hear the tired old statement "many have been persecuted by the church... look at the Crusades". Those people had about as little to do with Christ as a Black Bear does deep sea diving.

Krispy

Bubba we all deserve hell, saved and unsaved, we all have a sin debt to be paid, church and unchurched for ourselves by rebelling in not accepting his free gift at the cross and submiiting to HIM in being both Savior and Lord. The question is for all of us, has Jesus paid for our sins or will we pay the penalty ourselves in hell? This is why the church should preach grace. If we have indeed received that grace, we will show thankfulness for that grace and is it will be manifested into works in our earthly lives in word and deed. One of those works that is produced by thankfulness for grace is manifested in works to the HIS church that he died for. He described how that grace is manifested and should look like so we can examine ourselves to see if we indeed have received and are thankful for that grace.
Read the likeness in the 10 leapors that were healed and only one returned to thank him.
Luke 17:11-19
11 Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12 As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance 13 and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity on us!"

14 When he saw them, he said, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed.

[u]15 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him-and he was a Samaritan.[/u]

17 Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19 Then he said to him,[b] "Rise and go; your faith has made you well." [/b]

I have read the original post and all responses. I appreciate the scholarship of Brother Smith and historical research, nailing this deception for what it is. It has snowballed into a vast web of supporting doctrines also, and it is interesting that most of the folks who have embraced it have also espoused once saved always saved and the incorporation of "the American Dream" [Prosperity]] into their version of being a disciple of Jesus.

TBN, Paul Crouch and company, proudly preach it, along with the hundreds of preachers in their vein, with millions and millions that have had a daily diet for DECADES, in 100 countries or so. John Hagee, of San Antonio, an anointed orator, believes that the American economy will fall, when the Christian influence in our economy, the Believers, are removed instantly...you know, babies translated from their mothers breasts, jets crashing when pilots disappear, bus drivers, on and on, and then we'll be in financial chaos, and America will slide into depression. He would hardily agree with everything that I have stated here,,,this is not slander or gossip. They have made[TBN] several major movies on this theme, the most famous being the "LEFT BEHIND" series, with many famous actors involved.

My healing of the wound, though, would be different, somewhat, than Mr. Smith's. Books are a blessing, and important, but the reason that so many have believed this fantasy is through reading books, or being indoctrinated through the media. I remember "The late great planet Earth", by Hal Lindsey, circa 1970. A massive best seller, bombarding America with this apple plum vision of sweeping into Jesus' arms; out of your steaming convertable corvette into His hands and Angels and a dandy heaven to boot. Whoo-pee! we're saved and livin' life as the head, not the tail....! Bring on your coming! ....."Woe to those who desire the Day of the Lord; a day of darkness and not of light."

I read my Bible, and the source of my doctrinal faith has and always has been primarily the Holy writ; the scriptures. We need fearless men and women who will stand on the Word, and preachers, who are fearless to rebuke these lies. We need Bible Teachers, led by the Holy One, to expound these simple, and many scriptures to the simple, and the young, so that they can read and see for themselves. The problem to me about reading a list of books is that it is just complicated. Also I believe that if the gospel doesn't fly with the poorest on the Earth, then it isn't the gospel, I try and imagine grounding the poor Hindi masses, or African villagers, and I think I would go about it teaching the Bible,as simply as I could, and encourage them to learn from the Word likewise all their days. It is a good thing to bolster your faith, through another's thinking, but the thing about a man finding a pearl on his own as he seeks God is, it will always be with him. You have taught him how to fish, not just given him some cod.

This anti- christ lie lays in a more subtle deception that the Salvation of man is centered around God blessing man, not man becoming a son of God; being conformed to the likeness of Jesus by denying and dying.

The three Pillars of this new age Christian[including age old denominations] are the basis rights of all Christians: The right to Happiness, Health, and Prosperity. These rights have evolved into mandates that God must adhere to, and come with mantras and faith confessions, with much indoctrination, and very little actual bible reading and prayer attributed to the individual believer.[it seems so.]

The result has been a golf ball sized Jesus, who becomes both butler and slave to accommodate every "FAITH" desire that smooths my flesh. I'm blessed, and "I'M AT MY BEST, WHEN I'M BLESSED!" Though 170 years old, this doctrine was received in exactly the same vein as the wicked antichrist teachers of today."It's your destiny to be blessed!" No suffering at all; that would go against the right to happiness, and therefore could not be God at all.
We will be rescued from all suffering, for a loving God would not want you to suffer the book of Revelation, or Isaiah 24. Impossible.

I am thankful to sermonindex for bringing this up, and the fatherly wisdom of Brother Smith. I am happy it has risen in these threads, and to see so many agree with truth.

In the Babtist religion, who claim only 50 to 70 MILLION here in America[counting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, free, southern, northern and 80 more splinters] chances are, you will lose your Pastorate, and be excommunicated for following that evil heresy of post tribulation rapture. [Not all, and I know there are many Babtists and affiliates who don't buy into it.]

I know some of that venom, as I had a while to address a church with whatever agenda I chose. I had a word of knowledge to begin with, that I was sweating out for a full minute in silence, until the young man I prophesied about came forward greatly broken, admitting rebellion and exactly endorsing my word, I had never met him, until then.[I have given very few of those words publicly] I thought this might buy me some respect!.....WRONG.

If Count Dracula were preaching, I would be better received, as they realized I was hinting that just maybe, the word may bear out the truth of Matt. 24, in a different light.... 7th trump, after the tribulation of those days, and so on. I was heading there. Never arrived. It did not go so well.

After the meeting, everyone avoided me.I had touched the Holy Grail. This was sacred ground to these people, that involved their lives, and their children's lives!, like I was an agent from Hades attempting to steal their FAITH. All I really wanted to do was to see them prepared for the inevitable; a hard time, and to BE PREPARED. 10 VIRGINS. 5 prepared with faith oil, 5 unprepared. Darkness sweeping in like a flood. Need light. where is light? In the "Day of the Lord?" .....Those prepared by the Holy Spirit to love Truth, at the expense of every thing else.

"If any man come after Me, an hate not his mother, brother, sister, possessions, CHILDREN, yes, and even his own life, HE cannot be my disciple."
Brother Tom

Jeremiah 28vs.15

Then Jeremiah the prophet said to Hananiah the prophet;"Listen,listen now, Hananiah! The Lord has not sent you, and you have made the people trust in a lie!" Therefore thus says the Lord;"I am about to remove you from the face of the Earth, BECAUSE TOU HAVE COUNSELED REBELLION AGAINST THE LORD!"

So, Hananiah the prophet died in the same year, in the 7th month.

``` If we, for the sake of comfort, bring a false comfort to God's people, through a lying prophesy, we counsel rebellion. This pre-tribulation doctrine came from the lips of a dreamer, in the 1840s, as was so accurately and historically documented by Brother Smith, and is widely known to have originated here. It fits the description of exactly what a FALSE prophesy is. In the Biblical scheme of time and Word, it's brand, spanking new. Furthermore, as Brother Smith so aptly exposed, it is without a single Bible reference, while,"The 7th trump", post tribulation Bible version, has SCORES of New Testament endorsement.

So, I won't call it deception, but a LIE, and a lying prophesy, meant by Satan to lure Believers into complacency; that peace and prosperity would continue. "everything will be "well with your soul", even in the midst of gross apostasy, it's ok, God loves you , and is for you!" You will not suffer terror!

This is true, as long as we continue in repentance and holiness. Therefore, God's controversy with Hananiah. So it is today.

When we become assured of continuing prosperity, the human spirit drifts toward complacency, and , as the Jews did in Jeremiah's day; they lost the Fear of the Lord. Unbelief. If they really believed Jeremiah[proven true over and over, and certainly here; Hananiah died!] Yet, no repentance, no preparation of heart, no FAITH....no life.

Remember though, there were a few, that sighed and groaned over the sins and rebellion, whom were spared, as the Angel went about, and marked these on their foreheads, within the gates of Jerusalem. These were saved in the midst of Wrath, for they knew every thing wasn't going to be ok, and bore God's heart as they witnessed Apostasy every day.

Your "How can anyone be sure?" argument is childish. I ask you, How can you be sure the Bible is God's Word? You can't; if so , prove it.

I trust, that you like me, believe the Bible is true, by our faith. Satan brought a similar argument to EVE..."Has God said?" Doubt is the foundation of rebellion. It's not an argument.

This ties in with your statement about others who aren't sure either, and because they are famous, and have a good report, therefore my argument and faith MUST, or COULD be true. This is also an extremely flawed faith statement as Christians must always found their faith in The Lord, and the Bible Word of God. If men of God fall in a ditch, because of their error, where will you end up? Men may teach, and preach, and we glean and are fed, as the Lord leads, and feeds, THROUGH THEM!

Where did you, and how could you end up with an assumption that the 7th trump word about the Parousia would POSSIBLY result in"the Bride being destroyed"? I'm flabbergasted! The entire point is that Jesus is returning for a pure and spotless Bride. Do you read your Bible? It's an impossibility! IF, you believe your Word. This is rooted in ignorant fear,maybe to bolster a position with Zero biblical or historical merit.

Rebellion causes God's people to believe a lie, so I will call this modern, dream derived, false, unbiblical deception what it is, a LIE.

To a brother, yours, Brothertom.

Furthermore, as Brother Smith so aptly exposed, it is without a single Bible reference,

Amen what a dangerous method in attempting to be accurate. I don't see this topic as a separating factor for Christians, at least it shouldn't be.

We know he is coming back and who he is coming back for(the church) (his church)Surely we can be objective in accessing when he is coming back because he says no man knows the hour or the day but be ready.

I believe the pretrib version and if I am prepared for the post-trib version and it won't be by my power or my strength but his power and his strength I survive and live forever, in the same way he saved me at conversion. None of us can do anything apart from his power, strength, grace and mercy. If he doesn't come through with the strength that we need at anytime, we are sunk.

We are a proud people we usually don't want nothing for free, we say no let me pay you for that. The truth is we can't pay our sin debt, only one was qualified and worthy to do that. Look the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. However we will pay for our sins in hell if we fail to let Jesus pay the debt. Jesus said his grace was sufficient and that in our weakness his power is made perfect. When he does save us, we return to him over and over as the one of the lepers out of 10 to thank him as our Lord and ruler of our life. We fail but we don't fall.

I believe that and Lord help us all to say we are weak and you are strong, and do not let us manufacture or depend on anything we think is our own strength in standing, whatever the case may be.

Back to the pre post trib subject, when we see the trump or trumpets in the Greek definition we can see that it may be referring to two different events. If we look at the trump and the trumpet as are they same, although the Greek definition are different, and the seventh trumpet being the last trump, then we could certainly understand the post-trib theory. We see these two definitions are different because they are different. There is more on this from our BLESSED HOPE, line upon line and precept upon precept, but let us get past this one first on this subject about the trumps, if possible.
SEE EARLIER POST.
A pre-trib brother
moe_mac

I am not an arguer; I submit this in a spirit of meekness (although with typed words, I know it can be hard to tell). I think we need to see the tribulation for what it is. God is not out to kill us all and I realize I could be wrong but I believe that the WHOLE length of the tribulation will reveal the evil content of man’s heart – especially those who say they are Christians or even more disheartening, think they are in the Bride. We are told to not assume so arrogantly that we get to sit in the front row but to humbly take our seat in the back. Christians or not, we are dealing with the human heart here and its corrupt and evil, who can know it but the Lord?

So this post is not to pick on you Chris but that view of we are saved from “God’s wrath.” We read all through the Bible how God delivers those who trust in Him IN THE MIDST of adversity. He was the fourth man in the fire; he saved John from the death of being boiled alive. Even though John had to watch himself being lowered down into boiling oil and had no idea how it would turn out. I truly believe the pure in heart (to the pure all things are pure) will have nothing to fear going through the tribulation. If need be, he will rain down manna for his children and let water flow from the rock. He will take care of his own.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Yet I just cannot see the Lord forcing His bride to suffer through His wrath as it will be poured out upon the ENTIRE Earth.

I humbly disagree with you and all who hold to this passivist view. To think like this is pure human reasoning. Did God not say in Isaiah 55.9-10, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I humbly ask to all who believe this, How do you know WHAT the Lord will require of His Bride? We don’t.

To believe it’s an all or nothing thing about the Bride is presumption on the part of our human understanding. No matter how we study, the way of the Bereans or whatever, we still only see darkly as if through a glass; we don’t see the WHOLE entire picture. I don’t believe the Bride will be destroyed if she is here. I believe it will be her finest shining hour.

I can hope that I will shine if I am here but I will NOT take part in possibly misleading anyone that the Bride gets to leave. There are too many Scriptures that read otherwise. To me, teaching people this is indeed teaching them to save their life (in one form or another). Jesus himself tells us, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (Luke 17:33). We should seek to stay as long as possible to be witnesses either in death or life that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

So should we not have the attitude of Nehemiah 6.10-11. . .
10 Afterward I came unto the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah the son of Mehetabeel, who was shut up; and he said, Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us shut the doors of the temple: for they will come to slay thee; yea, in the night will they come to slay thee.
11 And I said, Should such a man as I flee? and who is there, that, being as I am, would go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.

We read all through the Bible how God delivers those who trust in Him IN THE MIDST of adversity.

While it is true there are examples of this, there are also examples of God delivering His people BEFORE His wrath fell. I think of Lot. He was delivered out of the city before His wrath fell. There are just as many examples of this as there are the other.

But when we have a pet doctrine we want to push we tend to only pick out the examples that bolster our doctrine... and ignore everything else as if it isnt there.

Bad way to use scripture.

And before you jump on me... I havent declared my position on this topic in this thread. I might actually agree with you... you never know.

One thing I have noticed, especially in this forum, there seems to be almost an arrogance among those who believe the church will go thru the tribulation. Kinda like a badge of honor, or like we're gonna show God how worthy we are by remaining faithful thru the tribulation. And then you call those who believe in a pre-Trib rapture things like "pacifists". Whats up with that?

Anyone want to go thru the Tribulation? Be my guest... I dont particularly want to. However, if thats God's plan, then thats what I will do. I've been to hell and back in my life, and it's hard to imagine that things will be even worse than I have seen in other parts of the world. The Tribulation wont be some Hollywood production... it's gonna be real.

Krispy

Bad way to use scripture.

Perhaps, but just cause you think it, doesn’t make it so, Krispy!! And besides, I can’t remember ever having a direct conversation with you. Nice to meet you!!!

But when we have a pet doctrine we want to push we tend to only pick out the examples that bolster our doctrine... and ignore everything else as if it isnt there.

I've been to hell and back in my life, and it's hard to imagine that things will be even worse than I have seen in other parts of the world. The Tribulation wont be some Hollywood production... it's gonna be real.

God bless you!!

tjservant wrote:
Hi Chris

I have read the Scriptures clearly and from the "Berean" mindset (as if there were any other manner for a believer?)

Rev 10:5-7

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days[b]when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."[/b]

Just as the seventh angel is about to sound the seventh trumpet: Could these saints be in a different time zone maybe?
Compared to when the last trumpet sounds? What you think saints?

Not really that important, but I'm glad yall brought this up.
What is the mystery of God? Christ in his people.

Note: In Smith's study he said there was no mention of this until what Chapter?

RE: MATTHEW 24:(15) When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand;) (16) Then let them which be in Judea flee to the mountains; (17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house; (18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (19) And woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (20) But pray you that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day; (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. This "GREAT TRIBULATION" of vs. 21 is not any concern of mine as I can't go through it since I am living in 2008. That generation Jesus spoke to is long gone as well as the temple He spoke of which would be destroyed. Yet: Almost every reference to the word "tribulation" in the New Testament applies to what true Christians go through, rather than what they escape from.

John 16:33 - Jesus Christ said to His followers, "In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22 - Paul told Christians, "WE through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God."

Romans 5:3 - True Christians are to "glory in tribulations" because "tribulation works patience" and develops Christian character.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 - Paul wrote of the many "persecutions and tribulations" which "the ekklesiais of God" were enduring in the first century.

Revelation 1:9 - John was our "companion in tribulation."

Revelation 2:9 - To His ekklesia, Jesus said, "I know your works and tribulation…"

Revelation 2:10 - Again to His ekklesia, Jesus said, "YOU shall have tribulation…"

Revelation 7:14 - God's people "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

Christians have always gone through "tribulation" and will endure tribulations until the end. Yet we need not fear, for Jesus has promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20.

If this post-trib thread were a democratic poll, I believe the post-tribers would have it. I’m sure glad God don’t go with majority rules. A post-triber could have certainly a good dialogue with those people who come to the front door with the pamphlets with the tower on them. Trying to put some humor in here, don’t get bent out of shape people. When the gospel is preached to all nations and the fullness of the gentiles is come in, we are out of here, those who know Jesus, when the trump of God sounds, not the seventh trumpet,{different definitions} when ever that is. Maranatha!!!!!

Too many see only through glasses which impair their vision of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. If only such man-made spectacles would be removed their vision may improve. Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Col.1:12-14. - "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 17:20-21

I want to say that this issue does not and will not separate me from honoring, loving, or respecting any sister or brother who holds, or is leaning toward the pre- tribulaton faith , whatsoever.

The only thing important, as many pre- trib-rapture brothers have defined, is that we be prepared. I believe the Lord Jesus gave us THE PARABLE OF THE 10 VIRGINS for exactly such a time as this. The wisdom and direction here is this; THERE IS DARKNESS AND NIGHT COMING. BE WISE AND STORE FAITH AND LOVE IN YOUR HEART [OIL TO BURN YOUR FIRE] SO THAT YOU CAN WALK AND SEE, WHEN THE BLACK DAY ARRIVES.

This is a PREPERATION issue, not a SALVATION issue. Jesus, in the future, obviously, will clearly determine, with blazing light, those whom he marries, and those He rejects. It will have nothing to do about when He decides to redeem the Bride in fullness in Heaven; when he Gathers them.

If you or I love the Church, God's family, we will want them secure in His arms on that day, or the day of their deaths. This is so today, as a steady stream of prepared ones enter Paradise, washed White in His Blood.

I posted an exceptionally STRONG post, that may have seemed divisional. That was or is not my intention. I stand by my convictions, though please understand, this does not reflect
my rejection or fellowship with anyone who is born again, or may disagree with me.

Saying, that, I want to state that this is not primarily about the 7th trump. It is about , IN MY VIEW, my Dear brothers, DECEPTION. This , I believe, was spoken by the Devil, into the Church, to keep them from maturity; to lure them into COMPLACENCY, or LUKEWARMNESS, or being unprepared to meet their God, on any front.

Let us consider today, if the prophet[hachoo! I just sneezed for some reason] Kim Clement stated that God had just shown Him soon all true believer's souls would go to Heaven and be with the Lord; be raptured, but their bodies, spirits, and personalities would remain on Earth as usual, only now and then they would act funny, so you could identify that they were really raptured. Probably, he would sell a lot of books, and increase in finances and tv bookings, but some would cry Wolf!

This is akin to the revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture theory in the 1840s. One of the facts that Brother Smith pointed out, there is no precedent in Church History for this doctrine. It came as a prophecy from one young woman! Rather than join the scriptural unity and form, as an interlocking foundation, one must twist and fit a few undefined possibilities to begin to make it plausible. Hammer it in, and then say, " well no one can really know".

[ Some are very passionate about this, and really will not embrace you fully IF you disagree. ]Then, two very powerful theologians,[like Billy Graham and TBN today] Darby and Scofield, jumped aboard, and it became foundational truth and received widespread attention, along with cessationist theology,[The Holy Spirit quit manifesting Himself as He did if former Biblical ways].

Even today, in some circles, you are considered anathema, and from the Devil himself, if you speak in tongues or manifest other gifts spoken of in the New Testament. This ended on the day the last Apostle died, probably John. This also was a fruit of Scofield and his wildly popular Bible. [I cut my teeth on it, and loved his original language comments. It was refreshing, yet , somehow I skated past the indoctrination; I was spirit filled and spoke in tongues.]

Jesus admonished us over and over to keep our lights burning, and to BE READY, for we don't know the day or hour of His return. It is important to HIM. He desires his Body to be pure, and ready, likewise desiring Him.

Let's agree on this; there is a time of trouble, of Wrath coming, in a monumental, unimaginable way; The Book of the Revelation of Jesus. There is a "GREAT MULTITUDE" who have came out of it, and stand before God, HOLY, having washed their robes in His Blood. READ REVELATION 7 VERSE 14. !

If myself, and others who believe as I do , were totally wrong, wouldn't it be wise to live like we were right?[ I know many of you do.]

This global bride speaks of SOME who came out of the Great Tribulation; more than a man can count; a Great multitude. Now possibly you are already in Heaven at that time, to greet those Saints arriving. I'm for you, and congratulate you for obtaining the greatest prize the Universe has to offer.

Jesus said;"BE READY!"

Thank you Sermon Index for the forum and freedom and grace to dialogue this awesome End-time issue. It is very rare and unheard of, for me, until now. It is an important issue with the Father also, I think.

Brothertom.

??? Sorry David, I don't get it. I want us to be prepared to meet Jesus, that's all. You sound angry or frustrated.

Tom

Sunday 04/13/08 5:00:03 PM
Please help me here. I am of pre-trib belief of the scriptures. I want to be correct in my theology. Below is some info in how I reached my conclusions. Please look at these and tell me where I have gone wrong, if I have. Please stay with these scriptures. Please answer these questions in a post trib manner and try to convince me if you stay with these passages and add to with others but please explain these passages. I know there are some good Bereans out there that will and can explain these to correct an error on my part.

If we physically die before the tribulation starts and we are saved and before Jesus reveals the anti-christ, will those saved people who are physically dead (Christians) go through tribulation in the post-trib belief? John 6:44

Has Jesus already raptured some Christians that have physically died and when did it happen, do we have a pattern of this future resurrection other than Jesus our first fruits? Matt 27 53

If we don't go through the tribulation, when we are physical dead, then is that fair and just for all, if only those Christians who remain go through the great tribulation? Acts 10:34

If a Christian goes through the great tribulation will that death be more or less painful or more or less desirable or more saved, than many some natural or accidental deaths that some Christians have already experienced thus far today in the world for Christ? 2 Cor 5:8

Has Jesus already revealed the antichrist?
1 John 4:3

Is the antichrist already in the world?
1 John 4:3

Was the spirit of antichrist already in the world when Jesus spoke of him?
1 John 4:3

What are the qualities that we can recognize about the antichrist, if he masquerades himself around as an angel of light? How can we tell what his spirit is?
1 John 4:1-3

Do we have any people who speak in the world today that fits this description of the antichrist?
1 John 4:1-3

Will the gentiles, non-Jewish decent (saved people), go through the tribulation or only unsaved Jewish people who hasn't made Jesus Lord and Savior?

What is meant by the passage “ when the fullness of the gentiles come in”? Rom 11:25

What is being referred to in the passage about grafting back in the natural branches and the wild olive shoot?
Rom 11:17-21

Where do we go when we die, if we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb? 2 Cor 5:8

edited and question added:
Do the scriptures indicate Noah's ark a sign of Jesus' coming. and if so, who will be in the ark and are the saved people, just as Noah's family was saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Where was the people of God when the wrath of God was poured out upon the world with water in the Day of Noah? Where they not safe in the Ark? Where were the lost people? Outside the ark right? Did Jesus not say this is the same way it will be, Just as it was in the Day of Noah? Will he use fire next time?
Matt 24:37

Romans 5:8-10

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Still waiting on answers
04/16/08

moe_mac wrote:
Sunday 04/13/08 5:00:03 PM
Please help me here. I am of pre-trib belief of the scriptures. I want to be correct in my theology. Below is some info in how I reached my conclusions. Please look at these and tell me where I have gone wrong, if I have. Please stay with these scriptures. Please answer these questions in a post trib manner and try to convince me if you stay with these passages and add to with others but please explain these passages. I know there are some good Bereans out there that will and can explain these to correct an error on my part.

If we physically die before the tribulation starts and we are saved and before Jesus reveals the anti-christ, will those saved people who are physically dead (Christians) go through tribulation in the post-trib belief? John 6:44

Has Jesus already raptured some Christians that have physically died and when did it happen, do we have a pattern of this future resurrection other than Jesus our first fruits? Matt 27 53

If we don't go through the tribulation, when we are physical dead, then is that fair and just for all, if only those Christians who remain go through the great tribulation? Acts 10:34

If a Christian goes through the great tribulation will that death be more or less painful or more or less desirable or more saved, than many some natural or accidental deaths that some Christians have already experienced thus far today in the world for Christ? 2 Cor 5:8

Has Jesus already revealed the antichrist?
1 John 4:3

Is the antichrist already in the world?
1 John 4:3

Was the spirit of antichrist already in the world when Jesus spoke of him?
1 John 4:3

What are the qualities that we can recognize about the antichrist, if he masquerades himself around as an angel of light? How can we tell what his spirit is?
1 John 4:1-3

Do we have any people who speak in the world today that fits this description of the antichrist?
1 John 4:1-3

Will the gentiles, non-Jewish decent (saved people), go through the tribulation or only unsaved Jewish people who hasn't made Jesus Lord and Savior?

What is meant by the passage “ when the fullness of the gentiles come in”? Rom 11:25

What is being referred to in the passage about grafting back in the natural branches and the wild olive shoot?
Rom 11:17-21

Where do we go when we die, if we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb? 2 Cor 5:8

edited and question added:
Do the scriptures indicate Noah's ark a sign of Jesus' coming. and if so, who will be in the ark and are the saved people, just as Noah's family was saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Where was the people of God when the wrath of God was poured out upon the world with water in the Day of Noah? Where they not safe in the Ark? Where were the lost people? Outside the ark right? Did Jesus not say this is the same way it will be, Just as it was in the Day of Noah? Will he use fire next time?
Matt 24:37