demons?

Bubba,

What is your basis for any spiritual truth? In other words, where does it come from?

Bubba,

To answer your question - No I don't have a problem with demons or the demon issue.However, I do believe that they are real because the Word of God states it.

Focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and your demon issue will disappear. It may just be a demon trying to sidetrack you from the Savior Jesus Christ. Suggestion - if you are saved and redeemed by the blood of Christ, then why worry about the demons??

Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. It is through Christ and Christ alone that all issues are resolved. Expecially those of a demonic nature. If we stay focused on the Savior Jesus and not the journey itself, everything will allign according to His will. Peace be with you Sir.

In Christ,

Joe Benson

excellent question. Certainly the Bible contains the spiritual Truth of God and His Son.

But we also need to keep in mind that the Bible was written at a very different time and in very different cultural circumstances than what we face today.

but the bible does not need to adapt because man is still the same as he has been for thousands of years. sin is still sin, man is still man, the devil is still the devil and God is still God.

at some point, you'll see that certain things can be explained and certain things you will have to trust by faith. the question is "can you do that"??

have a good day,
phil

Bubba,

I was not going to get more involved in this dialogue, but I saw your comments to Parsley and got a bit concerned. Your comment was:

"Demons were recorded in the Bible as being a cause of many evils that people did not comprehend. So i have to question whether the Bible presents the real Truth of the matter, when it is refering to demons".

My concern is: Do you think or believe that the Word of God is the definite Truth of God? By your comment, I sense that you question that it is.

Remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God - Romans 10:17

If it weren't for the Word of God, there would be no Word of Truth. All we have to rely on is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit working in our lives. We cannot add to the scripture by putting our own thoughts in to the equation. The Word of God is sufficient for all things. God speaks through the Word of God; the Holy Bible.

I suggest that you spend some time in prayer concerning your issue. God never fails. Stop, pray and listen to His voice. He will help with your concerns.

In Christ,

Joe Benson

bubbaguy wrote:

Demons were recorded in the Bible as being a cause of many evils that people did not comprehend. So i have to question whether the Bible presents the real Truth of the matter, when it is refering to demons.
bub

Yes, the Bible is the written Word of God so it presents the "real Truth". There is no form of deceit in God and He is all knowing so He knew what He was talking about when He inspired the authors of the Bible. So yes, there are real demons.

I honestly don't see how you can have any foundation for your believing in Jesus and what He's done when you're critical about or just plain don't believe the other things in the Bible. I'll pose the question again, where is your solid foundation for believing, Bubba?

Jesus has never changed (Hebrews 13:8) and His Word hasn't either.

With concern,
Jordan

Parsly,

excellent question. Certainly the Bible contains the spiritual Truth of God and His Son.

But we also need to keep in mind that the Bible was written at a very different time and in very different cultural circumstances than what we face today.

Consider the Television. If a person from Jesus time saw a television, they would see a box full of demons and have absolutely no understanding of the physics that make the thing work. We know different; that its just electrons flying around and no demons are involved. (unless you start in on the content, which is another matter altogether.)

Demons were recorded in the Bible as being a cause of many evils that people did not comprehend. So i have to question whether the Bible presents the real Truth of the matter, when it is refering to demons. if you want to discount the progress of time and the vast cultural differences between modern humans and those that lived 2000+ years ago, taking everything as literal, then, i don't think you are reading and understanding the Bible correctly.

bub

What are you defining as "the spiritual Truth of God and His Son"? Wouldn't you agree that those who speak of demons see them as spiritual beings? It would appear that if the Bible contains spiritual truth about Christ, demons are considered a spiritual reality, then when it says that Christ cast out a demon, it is actually telling us about a spiritual truth.

If you believe that the writers of the new testament seen demons as a spiritual reality and they speak of Christ casting them out then the only conclusion you can come to is that the writers believed these things to be "spiritual Truth about God and His Son." You either have to say that Spiritual Truth changes or the writers aren't conveying to us full spiritual truth. If you say that it changes, you contradict what Truth is. If you say that the authors didn't convey to us spiritual truth, you contradict your first statement. I don't see a way around it.

Another thing you are seemingly denying is that the Bible means what the writers meant it to mean. To say that a text means something other than what the author intended it to mean is to be... well... absurd, don't you think? If I interpreted your post to mean you are telling me about your pet frog and how you are having problems with him staying in his aquarium, you would think I am crazy. Surely, for me to understand what you are saying I have to attempt to acquire what you, the author, meant by it. I'm sure you agree with that.

Amen Parsly!

I will try to answer your question. God bless you. first of all you must not be afraid for the truth can be disturbing at times. we are in the world and it is made up of all the things you mentioned physics etc. remember Jonah the Lord caused the terrifying winds to blow. this caused the men to throw Jonah overboard at his desire. in Matt. 12:40 Jesus uses him to tell of a sign of Jesus ressurection to come. still with me? okay, we as christians who come to Jesus are safe in what is really a God controlled world. Yes sometimes we go through trials and tribulations, Acts 14:22 but we are then by faith trusting God to deliver us. Ps.46:1 We must face that the ultimate reality of things is we are in a world which is both good and evil. while we are surrounded with good and evil angels, who come and go freely in the Spiritual realm, we in the natural realm are intersessors to bring about every change for the good. Matt. 5:13 we are salt in the earth. salt seasons to give life. the Holy Spirit trains us in the word to be able to overcome evil,the more we do this the more we will see who is trying to influence our lives. 2 Cor. 11:14 like wolves in sheeps clothing the devil hides behind good to inject evil, kind of like candy that is poisened. We pray and ask God to teach us truth Jn. 16: So what is happening is though demons are working all around us we have not been given a spirit of fear but of power, love, and sound mind 2 Tim.1:7

Demons is a subject that i have great difficulty with

Perhaps it is your perception of "demons" that is the issue...

This is because if you believe that they are active agents in our lives,

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." James 1:14

"Lest satan should get an advantage of us; we are not ignorant of his devices." ICor 2:11

"But if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded
the minds of them that believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them" ICor 4:3,4

"Ye are of God, little children,and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." 1John 4:4

and the whole of progressive Western thought, really, falls by the wayside and everything is motivated or controlled by forces we cannot see or comprehend.

I hope that I do not, as a Christian, simply fall under the role of "western thought", as that could well lead to more deception, which seems to me to be obvious when I view the news.

Intention, inspiration, happenstance events, all accidents, your health, your musical abilities etc. all become disjoined from the real world because the real world is evil spirits floating around causing trouble, diseases, crime, cancer etc. people become carriers without selfwill.

My life is under the authority of God the Father and His Son, to whom "all authority under heaven and earth has been given"; I am no longer held in bondage of fear of death or life, all things that come into my life have purpose to teach me, correct me, to form me into the image of Christ.

I am not my own I have been bought with a price.

On the other hand, those who choose to surrender themselves to thier own desires, thier own ideas of good and evil, and ultimately become a slave of sin have already conceeded to a "cruel master" whose intention for them is death and eternal judgement.

How can we not agree that there are those whose hearts and minds are so influenced by wickedness that they seem to be the very image of their father, the devil?

My will is to learn the will of God, to love what He loves and to hate what He hates; "to redeem the time as the days are evil"; and to learn to recognize His voice and "what the will of the Lord is".

There are those whose perceptions of demonic influences are askew; but that does not remove the reality that we have an enemy of our souls that would like to influence us to the harm of our hearts, souls and minds.

"For the weapons of our warefare are not carnal, but are mighty through God for the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ." 2Cor 10:4,5

Blessings to you...

before I sent you the reply about demons the devil tried to shut my lights out they blinked but God kept them from going out and stopping me from sending you this message about demons. God confirms his word amen halleluia.

Just so y'all know, this is kind of a continuing topic with Bubba on what's literal in the Bible and what isn't (others have included Noah's flood, etc.).

Jordan

this isn't crazy. the author meant one thing, and from his perspective it was true ("the guy was acting as if possessed") we understand that there is another possible reason, namely mental disease of a biological cause.

phil

Bubba: But we also need to keep in mind that the Bible was written at a very different time and in very different cultural circumstances than what we face today.

First it is evolution, and then it is an attack against the church, and then ad nauseam attacks against the Word of God. When anyone tries to reinterpret the Word of God in the foolish conceit that fallible men in 2008 have arrived at some kind of intelligence that supersedes the Bible, they undoubtedly are being instructed by some of those beings you are questioning:
1 Timothy 4:1 - 2 (NKJV) 1Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron…”

God said and very credibly for sure:

Isaiah 46:8 - 10 (NKJV) 8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

To take the arrogant notion that modern study by one of the most depraved generations since the time of Noah, has brought humanity to some sort of plateau of knowledge that challenges the infallible Word of God is very reminiscent of the foolish and incomprehensible behavior of Amaziah. After defeating the army of the Edomites by following the instructions of the prophet of God, he then brought home their gods to bow down and worship them, when their gods could not even save the Edomites. Any person saved by Jesus Christ has to be saved by believing His Word.
Romans 10:17 (NKJV) 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Peter 1:22 - 23 (NKJV) 22Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,…

To claim salvation is to claim only what can be accomplished by faith in the Word of God and the God of the Word, or the “Word made flesh”. To turn back around and start questioning the very vehicle through which a person has been born is as ridiculous as saying “my mother who bore me could not really be my mother”.

This generation is plagued with perplexities that it cannot solve and will never solve even when the most “highly evolved” genius arrives on the scene, not only demonized but actualized by Satan. And the “reason of our bliss” is the very idea that you are espousing, i.e., that God’s Word is not to be trusted, but rather that human intelligence and research and study and god (false god) science has superseded the Word of God.

The idea posited here and elsewhere in your threads is that God is not intelligent enough to have anticipated the future, not powerful enough to create as He has said in one day, but needed millions of tries to get it perfected, not able to communicate truth sufficiently without telling little white lies to those whom He may or may not have “inspired” in the faulty and unintelligent and non-scientific language of the ignorant and mythological context of their culture… which is utterly ridiculous!

Rather than put the pathetic gods on the throne that cannot even save themselves, but put us farther and farther away from peace and safety (the thread on nuclear bombs, remember) and into more and more confusion, instability, and chaos, why not give up this frivolous pursuit to enthrone puny man and his ignorant arrogance and trust the Living God who can lead you into wisdom that surpasses your noblest dreams.

1 Corinthians 1:26 - 31 (NKJV) 26For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

(edited to remove one statement) Please, for your soul’s sake stop this questioning of the wisdom and intelligence of the Almighty and Omniscient God and His Word that has never and will never change but will judge each of us!

Clint

You will remember, that Jesus permitted the demons from Legion to go into pigs. They will also dwell in other animals.

Remembering this, there are some which have the characteristics of animals. Remember when Jesus called someone a 'fox'? There are also spirits whose nature is like a snake's. Thus, you have a crazy situation where there is part of a 'psychiatric' diagnosis known as 'grunts and oinks' - and of course, these people have no idea how to deliver the sufferer.

Such nonsense! A term of derision is not transferable to a state of condition ... This is mumbo jumbo, "spirits whose nature is like a snake?" So this would make the Canaan woman what ... possessor of a 'dog spirit'? This is extra-biblical claptrap and not any different from the likes of "the spirit of tobacco" or "the spirit of poverty" ...

This is where discermnemt is essential. And that is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which God gives to some with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed it is essential. I do not know that it takes any special discernment to say that this is all hogwash. Discerning of spirits isn't to attach labels or qualities or even kinds and types to them but whether they are true or false;

[b]To another discerning of spirits[/b] - compare 1Jo_4:1. This must refer to some power of searching into the secrets of the heart; of knowing what were a man’s purposes. views, and feelings. It may relate either to the power of determining by what spirit a man spoke who pretended to be inspired, whether he was truly inspired or whether he was an impostor; or it may refer to the power of seeing whether a man was sincere or not in his Christian profession That the apostles had this power, is apparent from the case of Ananias and Sapphira, Act_5:1-10, and from the case of Elymas, Act_13:9-11. It is evident that where the gift of prophecy and inspiration was possessed, and where it would confer such advantages on those who possessed it, there would be many pretenders to it; and that it would be of vast importance to the infant church, in order to prevent imposition, that there should be a power in the church of detecting the imposture.

Albert Barnes

One last thing about demons is that they are very limited. They have a very narrow agenda. There is more to say about the hierarchy, but, you need to start accepting their existence, before being able to deliver people from them will be a possibility.

No, there is nothing to say about the hierarchy except in your imagination. And what do you know of their agenda? Where you get these things and then muddy it all with psychological notions is to confuse beyond confusion. There is no biblical warrant for any of this. If you think you are being picked on here, it cannot be helped, to just let this go on as if it were so ...

The amount of information given in Scripture regarding demons is limited. That there is a mention here and there of 'types' does not give us license to extrapolation.

Consider the Television. If a person from Jesus time saw a television, they would see a box full of demons and have absolutely no understanding of the physics that make the thing work. We know different; that its just electrons flying around and no demons are involved. (unless you start in on the content, which is another matter altogether.)

That's a poor argument Bub trying to equate the two and further this idea that we have such advanced knowledge and they were just poor ignorant dupes.

demons seem like a historical artifact used to explain the unexplainable.

And yet the same Jesus you say you believe must also therefore become suspect, He must have been ignorant as well ... So you put yourself once again by this parsing of the scriptures into that which fits your taste and that which you do not understand as being rejection-able.

About the only piece of acknowledgment I can give here is that of extremes where there is thought to be a devil\\demon behind every situation and circumstance and the opposite of full blown rejection of their existence.

And you would wonder at us who try and hold to the test of scripture with some of these notions being tossed around.

I feel you are challenging my little knowledge on the basis of your lack of knowledge, rather than with fact you can present which clearly shows my words to be false.

You hang low for a time, posting innocuous words of praise and hymns...and then pounce at the opportunity to oppose the ministy of the leadership put here by the same God you praise. You speak out of turn, you undermine solid, pure Biblical teaching and the admonishings of men by the Lord, and cleverly inject your own lethal, humanistic views on marriage, abortion, extra-biblical dreams, and prophecy with a disregard to sober exegesis. You endeavor to teach, teach, teach, yet all your posts are unctionless and dead and void of the Spirit of God because you yourself are in rebellion to the order God has set in place, both in this forum, and, according to the multitude of posts I have read by your own disclosure, your own life as well. The saddest part is it that you apparently have no intention of stopping the momentum.

Woman, you are out of order here, and have been for a very long time. Greg has been gracious in allowing this to go on as long as it has, more than I could ever be. I beseech you to search your heart and see if all this isn't so. You have even been exhorted by another sister here to check your ways and be humbled, and it had no effect. It is one thing for a woman to be reproved by a man, but if she is reproved by another sister of her own age, this is prime cause to begin praying.

Paul West,

It is you thats out of line!

Quote;
You endeavor to teach, teach, teach, yet all your posts are unctionless and dead and void of the Spirit of God because you yourself are in rebellion to the order God has set in place, both in this forum, and, according to the multitude of posts I have read by your own disclosure, your own life as well. The saddest part is it that you apparently have no intention of stopping the momentum.

Paul,do you have unforgiveness against this woman?

David

Guys. Are we [i]that[/i] thin skinned that no one can rebuke us? Are we to [i]that[/i] point that we feel offended by godly council?

[u][b]Proverbs 10:17 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, But he who refuses correction goes astray.

Regardless if you like it or not, the moderators are in charge of this forum. If you are a part of this forum, you choose to submit to their authority. If someone is in need of rubuke and the moderators deem it necessary, then we should trust that this rebuke has been prayed about before posting.

There have been times where I have been rebuked privately and publically by the moderators here. I have been rebuked by brothers and sisters here as well. Each and everytime I pray about it and set it before the Lord. Very few times have I found that these rebukes towards me were unfounded.

My suggestion to Linn, as to anyone, is to take the rebuke as it is, present it before Jesus, and see what He will say about this.

bubbaguy wrote:

Been thinking about this over the weekend.

Have you been thinking about this, or praying about this? Makes a BIG difference.

There are times to sit and "take it" and times to stand for what is right.

Abuse through leadership is what Jesus rebuked.
Peter (a leader) was openly rebuked.

A rebuke should involve the persons best interest
not a desire to slam them into a valley of despair.

Are we saying the moderators can never be wrong?
This is scary!

David

There are times to sit and "take it" and times to stand for what is right.

This is called a spirit of rebellion. Please seek the Word for a better explanation.

Abuse through leadership is what Jesus rebuked.
Peter (a leader) was openly rebuked.

How was leadership abused? Is rebuking someone publicly an abuse of leadership? Please find me verses to back this up.

A rebuke should involve the persons best interest not a desire to slam them into a valley of despair.

Actually a rebuke should involve the Church's best interest as well.

We should never fear "rebuking" something that needs rebuking out of fear that the person on the receiving end will "slam them into a valley of despair". Only the foolish would base a rebuke on feelings.

[u][b]Proverbs 13:1 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

A wise son heeds his father’s instruction, But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.

Are we saying the moderators can never be wrong?
This is scary!

Nope. Never said that. Please re-read my post. You will see that I talked about submission and trust in the moderators. You will see that I talked about ME being rebuked and how I handle it. You will see that I talked about bring the rebuke before Jesus and waiting on His council about it. You will not see me say that someone can never be wrong.

My first statement stands and the question remains. Are we [i] that [/i] thin skinned that no one can rebuke us?

Micah;

Quote:

"We should never fear "rebuking" something that needs rebuking out of fear that the person on the receiving end will "slam them into a valley of despair". Only the foolish would base a rebuke on feelings."

Is loving foolish???

Are you serious?

Peeople are not cattle

David

bubbaguy wrote:

when i survey the world around me i see lots of references to diseases such as epilepsy, that can make a person disabled. I don't find such references in the Bible, but epilepsy is real. in the Bible there are lots of references to demons, but in my world survey i find no such thing.

Ah Bub... You used a horrible example there. :-)

Mat 4:24 \tThen His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, [b]epileptics[/b], and paralytics; and He healed them.

That is from the New King James version.

bubbaguy wrote:

Miccah,

is thinking and reasoning okay with you?

bub

Depends of the sitiation. Like if you are talking about going to McDonalds vs. BurgerKing. Anyone who's anyone will tell you the the BK Broiler kicks the Big Macs tail. If you hear otherwise, that other person probably didn't think things through. :-)

But in regards to the holiness of scripture and the infallibility of the word of God, prayer should always be first before "going" to yourself. Trusting yourself over the one who created you is foolishness. You seek yourself and boast of your own knowledge without humbling yourself to the Creator and the knowledge that He brings.

My question is this. Why woundn't you be praying on this all weekend? You said that you think about it, but where did you seek the Lord?

So, did you seek the Lord for an answer, or did you seek yourself for the answer?

Abuse through leadership is what Jesus rebuked.

Miccah,
havent you read where Jesus rebuked leadership?
Matt 23

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor

this is off the top of my head.

There are tons of scripture on this

David

psalm1 wrote:

Micah;

Is loving foolish???

Are you serious?

Peeople are not cattle

David

[u][b]Titus 2:13-15 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you."

psalm1 wrote:

There are tons of scripture on this

David

David,

Are you grouping together Paul West's rebuke with the Pharisees in the bible? Brother Paul's rebuke to Linn is what we are talking about. To group the Pharisee in the bible to/with brother Paul's rebuke is an injustice.

I love Linn and we get along, but the fact of the matter is, is that Linn was out of line concerning her public words and actions towards the moderators of this site. It is in Paul's authority to correct and set things back in order here on Sermon Index.

If you follow biblical authority between men and woman in the church and actions between one another, you have no choice but to agree with this statement. To do otherwise would be to say that the Word of the Lord is not true (hence the original topic of this thread) and up for cultural interpretation.

Paul's rebuke was appropriate and just. I for one thank God that we have men here that will not fear the wisdom of men and those men's rebuke but istead will fear the Lord and His rebuke to those that fall astray.

You asked for scripture on Jesus rebuking leadership.

I gave you a few and then you make specifications?

David

Miccah wrote:
psalm1 wrote:

Micah;

Is loving foolish???

Are you serious?

Peeople are not cattle

David

[u][b]Titus 2:13-15 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you."

Remember the "greatest of these is love" verse?

1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

David

psalm1 wrote:

You asked for scripture on Jesus rebuking leadership.

I gave you a few and then you make specifications?

This is what I asked:

How was leadership abused? Is rebuking someone publicly an abuse of leadership? Please find me verses to back this up.

I went back to re-read my posting in case I needed to appologize to you and say that you are right and I am wrong. I do appologize for not stating clearly what I meant, so I will clarify.

So my question still stands. Is rebuking someone publicly an abuse of leadership?

Where in the bible does it say that a man in leadership is abusing his leadership by rebuking someone that is out of order? Or for easier understanding, was Paul West's rebuke one that would be considered an abuse of leadership per the bible?

and by the way, who are all these crazy people on this thread???

bub

I just hope they aren't trying to prove to you that demons exist. If they are, I think there is a better way.

PreachParsly wrote:

and by the way, who are all these crazy people on this thread???

bub

I just hope they aren't trying to prove to you that demons exist. If they are, I think there is a better way.

You both are correct, I appologize for being part of the hijacking of this thread with another subject. I am sorry.

The rebuke had been long overdue. I worded it the way I did intentionally. It was not something I wanted to do, and I can confess before the public here, laying my heart bare before God that I have nothing but love for Linn. My words may seem harsh to those who have no idea what has been going on for years and years, but we know, and others know, and it was simply time to call it out. I do understand the vituperation of many who believe I was unduly harsh, unloving, ungraceful, etc. Strong, public rebukes are often taken that way by bystanders who are more often than not viewing these as cruel drive-by shootings.

Let me say that much contemplation went into that post before hitting the submit button. I was well aware of the repurcussions, and I have already received the obligatory PM's of "shame on you, Paul", as I knew I would. I loathe the idea of rebuking a brother or sister more than anyone else here - I find no joy in it, and my spirit is more grieved by rebuking than it is to [i]be[/i] rebuked. Those who have gotten to know me over the years know I am not a man given to hurtful, unloving words and a volatile temper. What you experienced here is a culmination of years and years of endurance of saying nothing and watching. The reason it was put forth publically was to "rebuke before all". I do not recant what I typed, I stand by ready to answer for them, believing God knows the heart, and is able to discern my intentions in stating what I did, no matter how harsh and unloving it may appear before the undiscerning eyes of men.

I ask forgiveness from those who may have been offended. I believe Linn is mature enough to understand and realize I love her in the Lord, even more so now, though with a heavy heart.

Thank you, brother. Please know that I've read what you had to say here and your objections, and I am taking them all to heart. I am willing to have the Lord speak, rebuke, adjust anything in me that may be out of whack. I value all comments and convictions and statements of reproof from each and every brother and sister in these forums.

I am trying to do my best in this ministry, to be fair and graceful, to be loving, non-jugmental, sober, clean and true, a balanced man of God, able to share any wisdom I might have received from the Holy Spirit for the betterment of every soul here. If I get it wrong, it's Paul West; if I get it right, it's God. Everyone who uses and prospers from these forums should make a regular habit of praying for Greg Gordon and the mods. We need your prayers more than you can imagine!

Our God's blessings upon you all, and especially upon Linn.

Brother Paul

… the Bible was written at a very different time and in very different cultural circumstances than what we face today.

This is very true! We do live in a different culture with a very different world view. Our post-Enlightenment European-origin West is characterized by rationalism, naturalism, scientific proof, empiricism, etc. Such a worldview simply cannot allow anything outside its box – and that includes metaphysical possibilities.

However, this worldview does not describe the entire world. For example, African Traditional Religions incorporate the possibility of evil supernatural powers, demons and such. Of course, those who are removed from such life situations, and who overly-exalt their own superior intellect, could easily discount such beliefs as simply distorted imagination and ignorance.

While we intelligent, advanced citizens may not put our trust in skulls at the base of shrines, as some tribal societies do, we do tend to put a lot of trust in the brains within our own skulls: our own understanding. And thus we are in danger of severing off a large part of the real world: all that what we cannot perceive with our natural senses and our own experiences.

Diane

...we do tend to put a lot of trust in the brains within our own skulls: our own understanding. And thus we are in danger of severing off a large part of the real world: all that what we cannot perceive with our natural senses and our own experiences.

Well said Diane.

Outside the light of God's word, men are haplessly cut off from reality and forced to fill in the gaps with mythology. The power of mythology is not it's 'folksy' truths, but it's ability to seem real to the people within it's systems.

The Egyptians had their Book of the Dead, The Greeks had Olympus, and we modern westerners live captive to the myth that man's reason all by itself can explain the universe without God.

If we resist the revelation of the Bible as it is written, and choose to persist under our own perilously delusional beliefs systems, we will one day be rudely undeceived by the Lord.

MC

I was going to stay out of this one, but I must say something. If you don't believe that demons exist on this earth, don't go to Napal. The power of Satan is great. These people don't believe in Christ and that Satan is defeated at the cross, and has no power over the Christian unless it is given to him. Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Satan and all that are his are in the power of God and cannot do anything to anybody except those that are in his grasp, unless God gives him permission as in Paul's thorn in the flesh, which was there to keep him from getting puffed up from the great revelation of Christ in Him which he taught all his ministry from his being called by Jesus Christ Himself, unto his death not to be crucified as to not even allow any similarity to Christs death.

If we think about Satan and give him power over our own situations and circumstances in life, he is able to have influence over us. Satan was completely defeated at the Cross to those that are in Christ. With Christ in you, if God and Satan got into a fight, who do you think would win?

Now, for Paul West my brother in Chrsit, I have two questions.

What does this scripture say to you?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And, if a female in Christ rebukes me, a male, am I responsible to take the rebuke or not. Being that both are in Christ and are not coming from self.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

I believe that Linn is a wise one in Christ and will come forth as the Son Himself.

I have been praying for three days about this and I pray that I am not a meddling fool.

Rom 12:16 [Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Are we not all of low estate compared to the Christ in us.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

My spirit is grieved in this also, may the love of Christ come forth and fill us all with wisdom and understanding of our being of one mind in Christ which we that are in Christ all have and need so much each other that we come a little closer to the fulness of Christ that alone we could never have, I a foot cannot say to the hand, I don't need you.

In Christ, through His loving kindness and Grace by His Faith: Phillip

Hi Phillip. I read your post several times, but I'm still not quite sure what you're asking. I am familiar with the verses you've cited.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And, if a female in Christ rebukes me, a male, am I responsible to take the rebuke or not. Being that both are in Christ and are not coming from self.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

For anyone interested, there's a little-known book that deals with the subject of [url=http://www.amazon.com/supernatural-occurrences-john-wesley/dp/B000YQVQEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208232262&sr=8-1]the supernatural in the ministry of John Wesley.[/url] The book apparently has several references to demon manifestations that happened while he was preaching open air. I think it's interesting in that demon manifestation is not normally associated with the ministry of John Wesley, but rather with 20th century, Spirit-filled Pentecostalism.

For me, the Truth of the Bible is that it accurately conveys what people believed at the time. Belief in demons is an example.

"For you". Always for you. You will never answer the question of Jesus and His direct dealing with the devil and his demons because you cannot without putting the Lord at odds with Himself.

What i hear SI folks saying is that because people at the time of the Bible believed in demons, this must be true (even though there are other explanations.) Yes, Jesus addressed this belief and did not contradict it, but if he had used modern understanding to address something like this, no one would have understood Him. and His purpose was not to set us straight on everything, but to provide us with a means of Salvation and teachings on how to deal with the difficulties of life.

This is sheer rubbish. You quaintly attempt an end around that Jesus wouldn't use 'modern understanding' to try an explain your way out of the difficult situation you find yourself in. But you explain nothing by doing so.

[i]And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.[/i] Mat 8:28-32

Explain it. Explain it away.

Mat 4:24 [i]And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.[/i]

Both demons and disease.

[i]Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.[/i] Luk 4:40-41

Again both. Are you ready to say the disciples were liars? That is what you are inferring like or not. Far worse you must also indict Jesus Himself for everything He stated about and directly to demons.

this literal approach to interpreting the Bible also means that unless what we have discovered since that time fits within its terms, then these things must also be untrue. Evolution is one thing i am refering to, here. We can know from direct observation that the universe is expanding in all directions and that if you reverse time everything ends up in the same place, but SI folks deny the big bang because it isn't in the Bible.

Evolution, denying the scriptures where they don't fit your preconceived notions it is your liberal approach to the same scriptures that attempts to bring them into reproach. You are at the height of audacity and pride to set yourself as judge and jury upon them. You know nothing of interpretation nor biblical hermeneutics. You would chastise the SI folks because they deny your evolution and your sloppy and reprehensible slashing and dashing through Gods word like it was some encyclopedia or academic text book that you can just toss around at will. We believe the scriptures because we have no reason to doubt them, you doubt them because you have no reason to believe them, except where they fit your humanistic notions.

this approach assumes that people of the time of the Bible had all knowledge or were prescient. and this approach will lead to false ideas and perhaps even false religion because it is an incorrect way of interpreting.

It is your false ideas and false religion that you have been trying to put in here edge wise for a long time in this setting and it is high time you were truly called on it. We have been too nice for too long. You have no desire to change your mind on any of your notions and yet believe you will change those here who hold Gods Word in the highest of esteem, that which is nothing to you being so much more knowledgeable than God. Don't fool yourself for a second that this is not precisely what you are doing, elevating yourself like Lucifer himself and speaking as his own mouth piece, "Has the Lord said?" There is an indignation and disgust at this and for the garbage you bring in here. You cannot profess to love the Lord and deny what He Himself said, put Him to question and doubt and cause others to fall into the same unbelief and distrust. You want to dismiss demons with a wave of your modern hand all the while you do their very bidding. This you do constantly, cherry picking your way, dismissing what you do not understand and even that which you think you do. You blaspheme the Holy Scriptures and are a heretic of the highest order. May the Lord grant you repentance. Until that time, it is time you move on from here before you cause someone to stumble.

[i]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.[/i] Rom 1:28-32

Quote:

I wrote, "And, if a female in Christ rebukes me, a male, am I responsible to take the rebuke or not. Being that both are in Christ and are not coming from self."

If there is no male or female in Christ. How does the submission fall on the female only?

Before the wife is to submit to the husband and the husband is to love as Christ.

Ephesians 5:20-21 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Submission on both male and female is the beginning of your Quote: "corporately" to what Paul says is good for husband and wife.

Now to the question: Is a wife or female in Christ when giving a rebuke (I hate that word)to husband or male out of bounds according to God's word.

If I have Christ in me and she has Christ in her, are we not bound to See Christ in each other. I see Christ in you because I see Christ in me. If I am in Christ am I supposed to submit myself to her admonition, and she, admonishes, rebukes me am I suppose to take responsibility for that rebuke and submit to her.
We already know in her submission, she will take the rebuke and submit to the husband. At least that is what the corporate religious church teaching expounds upon. I ask in reverence for Christ are we both not bound to submit to each other?

I see no difference in Linn speaking to our loving moderator and you also and others, than in you speaking to her, both being as you put it, "a rebuke". I do see personal attacks on all concerned, which should never be for those in Christ. There must be factions and heresies among you as in this illustration of long hair and short hair and eating one's fill instead of remembering the Lords body and blood. This principle applies to all differences in the body of Christ.

We are not to be contentious in these differences but to learn from each other and who is approved by God.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Pro 18:19 A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: and [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle.

Let us love one another and not be contentious with each other, but in love and admonition seek each others best in love.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Lets admonish one another and not rebuke, for rebuke carries Judgement.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

My eyes are full of beams or Logs of wood, I must be very careful of the tiny mote or sliver in my brother or sister's eye, in loving admonition of the Body of Christ of whom I see Christ in them because I see Christ in me.

When one of our great missionaries in Africa, sitting by the window discouraged and down trodden by his lack of fruit in Africa, looking at all the black people going by, the Holy Spirit spoke to him in that still quiet voice that is so penetrating, there goes the reason Christ died and the potential for Christ in all the people you see, Pray and your heavenly Father will deliver Christ unto them, by His power not by yours. "Ask that your Joy may be full"

In Christ, Forgive the beams in my eyes: Phillip

We are not to be contentious in these differences but to learn from each other and who is approved by God.

Here again, we would do well to consider that we have likely inadvertently absorbed cultural values - like the right to assert ourselves over others, cultural/political or racial dominance, patriarchal practises of the past, etc. So in effect, we do not stand eye to eye with the other person (whom we so quickly designate as our opponent). We stand a bit taller, and we employ verbal power plays. We do so without asking the person even one question, or making any effort to see through their eyes! We make no attempt to learn about them, why they think like they do, etc. What then, gives us the right to her or his soul?

We may not realize that their (perceived) faults may actually be the same as our own faults - or worse!

Oh, sure, we need to defend biblical authority and the deity of Christ, but hey - even the demons believe that (so do the Mormons). That in itself is no virtue. It is no reason to “trample” over others and march forward, out of sinc with the Spirit.

(See here... I’m preaching to myself!)

Without realizing it, we may believe it is our role and right to assert ourselves over others. After all, we are God’s agents sent to straighten out the "sinner". And when we meet resistance, we pull out more guns (which never works!). Then when we fail to “win” over or subdue our “opponent” we shake off the dust and go after another opponent – or rather, create another opponent.

In a few days I will be interviewing an ordained minister on a nearby Native Reserve (he is a native evangelical) .... Oh, pardon me, I am going to have a dialogue with him. Notice my temptation to precast this event in a tone of superiority? I need to go and allow him to minister to me, to share with me the lifeview of our aboriginals. I need to allow myself to embrace their pain. Oh sure, I think the Native people should forgive the past and get over it. But, I will be of no use if I myself still cling to some of the colonial mindsets - superiority.

Now, in this thread we are talking about demons and about reproof. Of course no demon will come along and blank out our posts. (A missionary once shared how demons blanked out the pictures that he took of shrines: D. Champin)

However, could it not be possible that demons - well, okay, maybe Satan or some evil power could be tempting us to assert ourselves over others in ways that give him the victory in the long run?

Diane

Katy,

What I meant about putting the Lord at odds with Himself is in the context that it was framed by bubbas notions. I don't how that is too difficult to understand. Either the Lord said what He said and did what He did or He is a liar and a deceiver, there is no muddy middle ground.

I cannot recall everything that has gone on here in the past and just because something wasn't addressed doesn't explain it from silence.

I was wondering......if maybe after this thread we wont have to go through the great tribulation?

David

bubbaguy wrote:

this literal approach to interpreting the Bible also means that unless what we have discovered since that time fits within its terms, then these things must also be untrue. Evolution is one thing i am refering to, here. We can know from direct observation that the universe is expanding in all directions and that if you reverse time everything ends up in the same place, but SI folks deny the big bang because it isn't in the Bible.

bub

Dear Bub,

You used the illustration of the big bang. I'd like to say that it's not only because it's not in the Bible that I don't believe in it, but because it's scientifically impossible.

You talk about using reason and logic, but the big bang theory totally goes against scientific law. Have you ever seen something orderly come from chaos?

If science contradicts the Bible, it's wrong not the Bible.

Jordan
edit: This wasn't going to be a "bunny trail", but I guess it was, sorry.

Go Katy,

The difference in Michael and Jesus is: Michael is a created being and Jesus is the birthed miracle of God.

You cannot make the two, one.

That is the difference in the Born Again also.

Those not in Christ are created beings, those Born from above are Spirit birthed son's of God, lest how could we see the things of the kingdom and worship God in Spirit and truth.

In Christ: Phillip

dorcas wrote:

If the 'big bang' is not a chaotic explosion, but the moment Creation began - can Christians believe in it without being compromised scripturally?

Well, God says in Genesis 1 that He spoke all Creation into being. The big bang doesn't fit into all that, so yes, I believe it's compromise. However, it's not really about what I believe, it's really about what the Bible say and will you believe it or not?

Jordan

Katy-did wrote:

More:

Angels DON"T HAVE BLOOD

Angels can't be Crucified

Angels can't forgive sin!

Angels...those awful ones some who are in chains...the ones Linn was referring to ..different levels of powers and principalities. 1/3 of the Angels fell with Satan,...one day the Church will judge!!!!

Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit.....not INVADED by an angel. :-?

Well, just more common sense!

Love Katy

Hi Katy,

Is there a specific Scripture that says angels don't have blood or is that just a guess? Would you back up this last post with Scripture?

I agree that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, but I'm not sure about some of the other stuff you said.

Jordan

Each time I post this, the thread is immediately locked. Let's see what happens here.

For quoting Hebrews? Not likely ... I don't know what all is being so misconstrued here nor why but I do not know that threads are locked for no good reason, so it must have been for some other completely different reason. I think far too much is being read into a lot of this. This thread didn't have anything to do with Michael or the equating with Jesus nor does it necessarily have to do with all the other commotion brought on by a rebuke earlier. I have to wonder sometimes at the level and amount of things being read into matters ...

I did take umbrage earlier with extra biblical motif's and later anti-biblical ones, those which have a certain long history here in this forum. That was more the emphasis than anything than just this lone subject matter. The deity of Christ is not something I feel some need to take a stand on when it is so painfully obvious and again why it needs to be brought up here ... I recognize the large beef that was put up over the whole matter some months back but it was addressed well enough at the time by others that it didn't need any further comment.

Happy? Might I say we really need to stop deriving notions and assumptions from what we are reading and just read them at face value.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

How could an Angel be in the Kingdom of God and do His bidding if they had flesh and blood.

Angels don't have flesh and blood. They are spirit and may appear as flesh and blood but are not as we are, who must shed this flesh and blood that it be planted into the ground and die, then the fruit of God will appear as Christ is, which He had and seen by many flesh and bone, but no blood. The life of the flesh is in the blood. The Body of Christ is a different glorified body
With no corruptible flesh or blood.

In Christ: Phillip

I think folks know where I stand.

How would people explain Gen 6 to fit about angels, flesh and blood?

[u][b]Gen 6:2-4 (KJV)[/b][/u]

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Katy-did wrote:

How would people explain Gen 6 to fit about angels, flesh and blood?

Miccah, what ever happened, we know the whole earth was destroyed by a flood after that, except for 8 people.

Katy

Thank God for His mercy and justice. May the Lord be praised!

dorcas wrote:

Hi Miccah,

I would like to add one more thought (p9), namely - 'the sons of God' and 'the daughters of men' is an ancient observation - a very simple observation - that man came from God, and woman came from man. This truth is repeated by Paul.

And one more thought - that the thing which distinguished Eve, for Adam, was that she was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. The truth of the human body is that it requires food, as Jesus showed after His resurrection.

There may be an unanswerable question about whether angels need sustenance (the 'angel' equivalent of food), but there is always a clear distinction between angels and mankind, throughout scripture, if you take all the relevant verses together.

I'll be frank, I have not prayed on this before posting and am not well versed enough in this to speak knowledgeably to back up any debate. I asked more for insight then for making a point.

I have heard this question come up before that some say that it is angels come in unto women and some say human men.

Thank you for your sharing your knowledge on this. I will read it and pray about this, then seek the Lord.

:-)

bubbaguy wrote:

why are SI folks so willing to assume that the person of Biblical times knew more about mental disorder than we know today?

Bub, until you stop looking at things in a flesh stand point, you will never understand the answers to your own questions.

the reason is that if you hold to this strictly literal means of interpreting the Bible, you have no other choice.

Says who? You?

our facts today are not biblical, so they are in error, inherently. those in the Bible are superior.

That pretty much somes it up. I will take the Word of God over the word of man any day and not look back. If the Word of God says somethinig, why would you not listen to it? If the bible says it is demonic, then it is demonic.

Let me ask you something Bub, does your God lie? Does He decieve His own elect? Does He tell you things that are not true? Will He lead you into misunderstanding? Will He lie to you like the serpent? Will He tell you things that are not true just to "get you to think"? Did he give you a higher and more complete understanding in your brain then He has?

Or did He say...

[u][b]Mark 1:14-15 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Repent and believe, before the Lion of the tribe of Judah comes for you, not as the savior, but as a Conqueror.

what i am questioning is the system of inteprtation that assumes that people of Biblical times had greater understanding or more accurate awareness of the universe than what we have today. This system of interpretation takes everything literal, as a fact, even though much of this is not intended to be taken as literal.

So then, are you saying that your own "human understanding" is greater than all of historical Christianity? And that Biblical interpertation is up for grabs to the latest "scientific" discovery? (Especially since a large portion of scientist can't even agree on what they should think or believe?)

Controlling a medical condition does not deliver them from the condition. When the LORD Jesus Christ addressed EVERY human issue, sickness, possession, and even death- they were not merely controlled, they were set FREE!! They were made whole!

The VAST differences of human wisdom and understanding and GOD's wisdom and understanding do not even are so huge that an explanation is not even necessary! "Were you there when God created the oceans and all that are contained in them?"

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or pricipalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist." Colossians 1:15-17

Presumption is a sin, that God forbid, we should partake in!

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Have you ever seen an Angel bleed or know of one that bled? Angels are not mortal flesh.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

No where in scripture is the blood associated with Angels, only from the life of the flesh, created from the dust. That is why the blood of Christ is so important, it is the Blood of the Father by birth, not by created flesh, The Seed of God in Christ, pure and sinless blood shed for our sins, that take away the sin of the whole world.

But even in this let us not put God in our little box and say this is the only way, but with the blood Christ was the only way.

God proved the life of the flesh is in the blood, for the sin of the world in Adam was completely taken away and the sins of the flesh are also taken away by confession because of the blood shed at Calvary. That is why God is faithful and just to forgive us our confessed sin. It is the Blood. The blood is only in mortal man and the blood of Christ, which when it was drained from His body on the Cross the Flesh died. Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

An Angel could not do what Jesus did for they are created beings not birthed. Christ is the only One that had the Blood of God His Father, as we have the blood of our earthly fathers. That was the only Blood God could accept, not the blood of animals which could not take away sin only cover it until the next sacrifice. Christ was once and once only and never needs be shed again.

In Christ: Phillip

bubbaguy wrote:
I am going to try this one time to refocus this tread on the point i was trying to make about interpretation of the Bible.

I stated earlier that for me the Truth of the Bible is that it accuratetly portrays the fact that people believed in demons during Biblical times. It is accurate and true about this historical belief.

Jordan asked:
"I honestly don't see how you can have any foundation for your believing in Jesus and what He's done when you're critical about or just plain don't believe the other things in the Bible. I'll pose the question again, where is your solid foundation for believing, Bubba?"

but this is the wrong question, Jordan. I believe the Bible's historical record just fine. it is in many cases verifiable from other sources, as well. I am not questioning this.

what i am questioning is the system of inteprtation that assumes that people of Biblical times had greater understanding or more accurate awareness of the universe than what we have today. This system of interpretation takes everything literal, as a fact, even though much of this is not intended to be taken as literal.

diseases and demons is one issue that i am using as an example of the problems with this system of interpreting. people of that time had very little understanding of mental health, as compared with what we understand today. demons was a common cause attributed to abberation or disturbed behavior. today we know there are other causes that aren't demonic.

why are SI folks so willing to assume that the person of Biblical times knew more about mental disorder than we know today? the reason is that if you hold to this strictly literal means of interpreting the Bible, you have no other choice. our facts today are not biblical, so they are in error, inherently. those in the Bible are superior.

doesn't anyone see how limiting this is, how it confines God?? and human understanding?? its like putting on a straight jacket and then saying that it is impossible for any person to move their arms.

bub

Bubba,

Who do you believe inspired/wrote the Bible? Do you believe it's inspired by God? (I think I know the answer, but just checking.)

Jordan

bubbaguy wrote:

"looking at things from a flesh stand point"

this "flesh" argument gets thrown around a lot, it is a nice comfy, fits-all kind of condemnation that really addresses nothing.

Ok, lets address the main questions that I presented to you.

"Let me ask you something Bub, does your God lie? Does He decieve His own elect? Does He tell you things that are not true? Will He lead you into misunderstanding? Will He lie to you like the serpent? Will He tell you things that are not true just to "get you to think"? Did he give you a higher and more complete understanding in your brain then He has?"

What is your response to these straight forward questions?

bubbaguy wrote:
Miccah, who are the "elect"???? being decieved??

the whole notion of people being "elect" goes against the teaching of salvation through faith in Christ's blood sacrifice. Are you saying there are "elect" people that will be saved, no matter what?

regarding the rest of your questions, where do you get the idea that God lies to anyone? If it is because you believe that an inerrant Bible gives us the final word on things, it your expectation, your demand of God, that is the problem. The Bible conveys historic facts surrounding the Jews and the development of Christianity. it provides us with the teachings of Christ and the Good News of our salvation.

Isn't this enough??? what more do you want????

bub

Does God lie?

bubbaguy wrote:

Don't you know that God is alone perfect? you must not, otherwise you would not ask that question.

bub

Bub, so far you have skirted the question each and everytime that I have asked you, and I have asked in more then one way. You reply with questions back, state something else, when all you have to do is answer the question. This question to you can simply be answered with a "yes" or "no".

If you are confident in your Lord, you would answer the question without hesitation. Sometimes it takes a great deal of honesty and humility to answer a direct question.

So I will ask you again. Does God lie?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:18-19 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Mark in our minds how many time we are to "KNOW", and have the witness of Christ in ourselves.

That you might know, Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Who made it known to us? To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

We truly have the witness in ourselves. Amen

For surly Christ is in me and you: Phillip

Irrelevant question? Are you serious? Refusal to answer a question does not liberate you from the truth of the question. Does God lie?

I have seen this question too often...

This at lease tells me that there are some Christians out there that will not compromise with you and others that think that the Word of the Lord is false.

You claim to believe in something (Jesus Christ)without being able to claim that it is true or not. What a horrible way to live, denying the very truth given to you by the savior whom you claim to believe in, all the while denying the truth given to you..

I give more credit to the SDA folks. At least they can take scripture and make an arguement for their case, where as yours is based on yourself and mans interpretation, and yes... the flesh.

You refuse to say what you believe (does God lie?) but want people here to succumb to your godless ideas of human wisdom based on a knowledge from man. This is the same as the serpent. You bring in falseness and heresy in these forums and when confronted by it, hide behind the vail of a counterattack.

Repent and believe the Gospel. The living Word of God.

Titus 3:10 - 11 (KJV) 10A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Titus 3:10 - 11 (ESV) 10As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

αἱρετίζω
hairetizō
hahee-ret-id'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to make a choice:—choose.

It is obvious that a choice has been made, why belabor it?

Clint

Yes Bubba - please pray.

I will be praying for you.

and for me, belief in demons is not much different than superstition. For people of the time of the Bible, well, undoubtedly demons existed. they had no other explanations for strange things that happened, and if humans don't know the why of something, they often invent it.

Your rheotric is running thin ... What do you do with Jesus Christ and all that He both said, did and that which was responded back to Him by demons themselves. It has been asked before and it is asked again, answer the questions or cease.

In no way did you even begin to answer the questions. They spoke directly to Him about Him and He spoke, rebuked and cast them out. The only superstition here is your own.

Don't dodge the issue. If you want to apply all that you have been saying to Jesus Christ Himself you make Him complicit and either deceived Himself or a liar.

if humans don't know the why of something, they often invent it.

I totally agree with Bubba on this one in an ironic way...:;-) which is why we should never disagree with scripture's perspective on reality for a reality that seems more sensible to us. When we are talking with God through his Word, just remember we are the primitive superstitious and ignorant ones in the conversation. Remember it isn't we who are bringing light and understanding to scripture, but quite the reverse.

Jesus believed in such things as an eternal hell, Noah's ark, demons, and that he was the son of God incarnate who could literally die for the sins of other people singlehandedly, and that he would rise from the dead.

Now modern man exalts reason above all other virtues. Being totally unable to learn from the dismal history of man's reasoning, continues to believe he can escape ignorance and superstition with his own mind. No civilization ever knowingly believed in a myth...the myth appealed to their hapless perception of reality at the time. Despite the tragicomical failures of path civilizations, each new civilization continues to invent ever new delusional mythologies...each new mythology swallowing the one before it promising reality and truth, yet in the end perpetuating man's lostness and darkness.

The truth can never come from man's mind...though we are reasoning creatures our reasoning is darkened and our intellects tainted by corruption. Why else would we be asked to 'renew' our minds? The reason is simple...

... I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

The bible is not another cultural document that invites us to cut apart it's facts from it's thoughts and intentions, but rather it sees us as we are, and cuts bone from marrow in our thoughts and intentions. Though much of the bible offends our modern pride, Christians must resist the sophistry of continually refuting scripture's relevancy and factualness, while pretending to be under submission to it's 'truths'. (sic)

MC

bubbaguy wrote:

i think what really offends folks here is that i am chipping away at the foundation of their strictly literal faith in the Bible.

Finally some truth. You have not come to fellowship, you have come to press your own agenda onto others. You have come to devour truth...

[u][b]1 Peter 5:8-9 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Go buy oil, fall face down and repent from your wicked ways. Present yourself weeping before the Lord and ask forgiveness. Cry out to the Lord

[u][b]Psalm 18:6 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

In my distress I called upon the LORD, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry came before Him, even to His ears.

before this...

[u][b]Job 35:12-13 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

There they cry out, but He does not answer, Because of the pride of evil men. Surely God will not listen to empty talk, Nor will the Almighty regard it.

Do this, then cling yourself to the Lord and forget about clinging to man. Humble yourself in sight of the Lord.

AHH! I wrote out a huge response but it "timed out." I'll try to type most of it or at least the main part of it again.

Now Compton, this is not fair. "The truth can never come from man's mind" well, 1 + 1 = 2 came from man's mind.

I disagree with this. Let's think about this for a moment. 1) Numbers are ideas. You can't touch or taste the concept of the number 1. You can touch 1 of something, but not the concept of the number 1 itself. If you can, I would love to see pictures. :-) 2) Numbers are eternal. The number 1 cannot change. If you try to add or take away from it, you end up speaking of a whole different number altogether. Even if you call it by another name, you are still referring to the same idea- the number 1. If you don't think numbers are eternal, please give me an example of a possible world (or age) that numbers don't exist.

So, 1) Numbers are ideas. 2) Numbers are eternal, therefore numbers must exist in an eternal mind. God is the only one who has an "eternal mind."

Man can acquire truth, but can never be the author of it.

and the Bible does not offend me in the least. i am seeking to understand it better. and it is my contention that it was never intended to be read literally. (Did people of ancient times tell stories literally?)

People of ancient times were able to understand language. I think you should step back and think about it for a moment. An obvious fact that you seem to be forgetting is that there are all different types of literature. When you read a newspaper you don't just start allegorizing (sp?) things, do you? Of course not. You read it as a literature that is bringing forth facts- or at least pretending to. In either case the authors intent is for you to receive the story as fact. The Bible obviously has narratives in it. When the Bible reports that Jesus died upon the Cross, we don't take it as a parable. Why? Because the obvious intent of the author was to just bring forth what happened. We see this by the type and "mood" of the language. A large portion of the Bible is a narrative. We should use our common sense interpretive skills to see this. When you read a poem, you see what type of writing it is and then you interpret it accordingly. You don't come to a poem expecting everything to be literal any more than you come to a narrative expecting everything to be figurative- you have to read it before you come to those conclusions. Here are some examples.

I have had my dog for quite some time. My dog got sick, so I took him to the vet. The vet gave him some medicine and he got better.

Now, what does that short story mean? Could I be speaking of my imaginary uncle Joe that has a mental disorder, whom I have been praying for, then he died and went to heaven? Um.. no. I guess if you're real creative you could see some parallels. For you to interpret that story as figurative you would almost have to have the author tell you that. No one should just assume that it's figurative. There are too many facts and specific information.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
My world is perfect
What's wrong with you, dude?

The author of that poem said "my world is perfect." Now, what does that mean? Is he saying that he literally owns his own world? That's it's perfect, which means there isn't one little thing that could be changed to make it better? No, probably not. Roses aren't always red, therefore this author is a liar! No.. This is obviously a poem that you have to interpret.

How do you know how to interpret the poem different than the story? Context and what the author's intentions where.

EDIT: I want to stress that it's what the authors intension are, not the one interpreting it. Regardless of what the receiver thinks the passage means it only means what the author meant it to mean.

My passion is for your soul and salvation Bubbaguy. Your passion is for man's knowledge. You have chosen your own path.

Every lost soul is worth fighting over. Regardless if they want you to fight over it or not. Usually these souls don't know they are lost while you labor over them. This is a salvation issue regardless if you believe it or think it.

If you have given yourself to another besides the One, I will continue to fight for you, regardless if you fight it all the way.

As for the teaching of heresy, expect to be challanged each and every time. If not by me, then the Lord will raise someone else to fill that spot. Truth will prevail over lies, and God's people will be raised during the battle.

May the Lord bless you Bubbaguy.

this is an unrealistic expectation you have. for things to be settled, straighforward and clear. in the real world there is no such thing, and everything is contaminated and muddled. Jesus tells us that none of this confusion matters. but, that we can depend upon the force of Love.

My expectation is not for all things to be straightforward and clear, but simply that we recognize that our reasoning, as acute and powerful as it seems to us, remains very limited and sadly connected to our corrupt characters. That 1+1=2 can be understood by us is not the subject of my concern. In short, I am saying that man's reasoning is just as affected by sin and the fall as the rest of his being is. This is a simple but important point.

Now ever since Abraham we have been a people set apart by our adherence and conformity to God's word. To decide in the 21st centruy that we Christians will now be a people defined by our own reasoning is to guillotine the head of the patriarch's, prophets, and apostles from ourselves. No matter how enthusiastic about human reason the rest of darkened humanity becomes, even if enlightened intellectuals once again succumb to francophile executions of religous people, faithful Christians can never place themselves over scripture.

We have often failed the measurement of scripture horribly for sure, but in the end we are thankful that there is a benchmark by which we can faithfully be judged as having failed. The bible, from generation to generation continues to be lighthouse for lost ships to return to safe harbor.

Reason is not the safe harbor you believe it be Bubbaguy. In the name of reason many declare there is no God. This 'reason' is simply an expression of the heart dressed up in scientific garb. In this way, we are no different then every darkened generation before us, each cataloging the physical universe according to their own delusions and sleeping quite well at night that they are enlightened.

We should remember that some light is actually darkness; at least that is what Jesus said. Indeed, as dark as our own light is, the next rebellious generation will walk according to even darker lights in their consciences. Already their lack of shame is unspeakable. They are products of our great and trustworthy reason my friend...try as hard as we might to be reasonable with them, we will not appeal to the sinful reasoning of their hearts.

Only the Word of God can stop this degradation. If reason were based on objectivity it would not be shifting and migratory...but that reason produces no stable belief system or morality is clear evidence that reason by itself is not the savior many worship it as.

MC

Only the Word of God can stop this degradation. If reason were based on objectivity it would not be shifting and migratory...but that reason produces no stable belief system or morality is clear evidence that reason by itself is not the savior many worship it as.

Good word, brother. I have found on numerous occasions my human reasoning to be antithetical to the will and purposes of God in my life. Knowing that human reason is indeed migratory, and subject to circumstantial evidence, this should be an absolute giveaway to the untrustworthiness of human logic predicated upon the timeless and immovable rock of God's Word. Which is why so many of us vie for the absolute authority and innerrant totality of God's Word to be elevated and exercised in all situations, scenarios, discussions, debates. What else is there to bank on? Especially knowing Satan is able to duplicate light and use the power of the Adamic soul to eclipse a dim-eyed and underfed spirit.

There is no better substitute to ward off soul-sickness and manufactured "light" in the name of freethinking Christianity than to sit at God's banquet table of His Word with a hungry, blood-besprinkled heart. The trumping of reason, the victory over logic, the unmasking of the adamic death-tree of knowledge. Lord, come and ingraft Thy sovereign, life-giving Word into our hearts.

we are asked to renew our minds because we get tired, weary, even in faithfullness. at times we need to rest and be refreshed.

That is not at all what renewing our minds is about ...

and the Bible does not offend me in the least. i am seeking to understand it better. and it is my contention that it was never intended to be read literally. (Did people of ancient times tell stories literally?)

i think what really offends folks here is that i am chipping away at the foundation of their strictly literal faith in the Bible. and that i call folks on their demand of perfection from God's word contained in a book written and complied by mere mortals, inspired as they may be.

this is an unrealistic expectation you have. for things to be settled, straighforward and clear. in the real world there is no such thing, and everything is contaminated and muddled. Jesus tells us that none of this confusion matters. but, that we can depend upon the force of Love.

bub

Bub, your great catch all is to do an end around and say that "none of this matters" while you bring it forward in the first place. I got your PM and am not going to disclose it here but we need to get this straight ...

the meaning of the story does not change for me because i don't believe in demons. i most certainly don't call Jesus a Liar because he is speaking to the condition and understanding of the people present at that time

That is complete rubbish. You have no other recourse than to infer that the Lord has not told us the truth or at best that He was embellishing matters due to the "speaking to the condition and understanding of the people present at that time". That is just flat out dishonest if it were so and dishonesty is lying no matter how you attempt it. It is not telling the truth. [i]I am the way and the truth[/i].

Either the disciples lied about what Jesus said and did in response to demons and also in the demons responding to Him or Jesus Himself did. There is no sloppy middle that you can sit comfortably here by not answering the questions. directly.

By doing this, by doing what you often do in setting yourself up as judge and by leaning on your own faulty understanding is to make everything suspect, doubtful, there is no end to it because the extrapolations just keep on going. The devil doesn't exist either by your logic and therefore no temptation occurred in the wilderness with Jesus. It is painfully obvious you have never taken this to a true study and even if you have toyed with it it is just as obvious that you would approach it the same you do with the rest of the scriptures that you twist to your and others own destruction. That is, your mind is made up well in advance and that [i]they[/i], not you, must submit to your superior modern knowledge.

No, you have the majority here all wrong by applying your reasoning to them. We are believers as I mentioned before because we have no reason to doubt, you doubt because you think you have a superior intellect and modern advances in your corner.

This is a futile attempt and I know it, may it be for others not to be persuaded by these notions. You cannot even see the ramifications of your own thinking and don't even care who you might stumble along the way. The verse put forth earlier stands;

Titus 3:10 - 11 (KJV) 10A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Quote:

""i think what really offends folks here is that i am chipping away at the foundation of their strictly literal faith in the Bible.""

You are not chipping away at anything except your on intellect. You must See by now that those responding to you are truly concerned at your own lack of understanding of the Word of God.

Literal faith is the kind of faith you are displaying, the faith we have is the Faith of the Son of God which is placed in us when we are born again from above, in which understanding you seem to lack A great deal.

This is what scripture says about the faith of salvation, you can explain it away by your superior intellect, but that does not make it not true. My intellect in salvation is the same as the Son of God that is birthed in me and yours seems very small and unintelligent in comparison.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

What you are doing is the intellect of the Law epitomized which is pure sin personified.

If you believe in the Name of the Son of God then believe in His Words.

This is a lot of scripture for you to understand but it is the TRUTH.

1 John 5:9-21 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

In Christ, praying for you "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death."

Phillip

Literal faith is the kind of faith you are displaying, the faith we have is the Faith of the Son of God which is placed in us when we are born again from above

Philip, I am humbled at this profound insight. Immediately I was reminded of For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Thank you much brother.

MC

Me to my brother, by the Christ that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

I admit that I’m not in sync with the thread. However, a poster recently PM’d me in response to my earlier thread about my visit today with a Native evangelical pastor on an Indian Reserve. I trust that it is permissible to respond here in this fashion.

Today was an important step towards reconciliation and healing (I believe) – not only between two hostile racial “camps” but also between two divided religious camps. I was joined by a clergy who adamantly clings to the liberal persuasion and, like many in that camp was leery of anything “evangelical”. So, I prayed hard that God would break that barrier. After all, how can we seek racial reconciliation when we are divided religiously?

Today barriers were broken down – I believe because of that pastor’s Christlikeness. Here was a man who gently and meekly portrayed the nature of Christ. He shared how God delivered him from alcohol, changed him, and led him into the ministry. He shared how some years ago in order to help two fellow native youth, he surrendered his ordination including his church. He believed that his position as a minister interfered. Ever since then he has maintained a permanent bond with them. (Now a Korean church supports him) He reminds me of the Apostle Paul who surrendered all, considering it “rubbish”. He was willing to be cut off for the sake of his own race. Rom. 9:3

That also reminds me: I was awake all last night, wrestling through a major decision. Finally at 4 am God broke through with a definite “no”. It isn’t till now, as I write this, that I recall Art Katz’ sermon in which he said that we must give up the good in order to open the way for God to fulfill the perfect. I think that Pastor. B demonstrated that in a way that was very costly to him.

…….And, now back to the thread topic:

and for me, belief in demons is not much different than superstition

In all fairness, this belief has not been unusual among evangelicals. I again refer to missionary Darrel Champlin. He claimed that the American churches, (some years ago) generally forbade him to mention anything about demons or the like – though he was permitted to talk about the other aspects of his missionary work. He said, “My work IS about dealing with evil spirits.”

I think part of the problem with we westerners is the way we categorize concepts. We split the natural from the spiritual. In other cultures (ex African) the spiritual and natural world, the seen and unseen, all merge. Maybe it was that way in Jesus’ day. (Matt. 12:22) Maybe there is no need to make a fuss over causative factors of various symptoms. Jesus heals, period! (It is interesting that the Pharisees were trying to distinguish the role of forgiving sins from healing. Jesus didn’t.)

10 years ago a pastor’s wife showed me a book that her adult Sunday School class was studying. It essentially debunked everything about demonism, including writers who supported it - such as Neil Anderson and many others. The lady was adamant that the book was right. I didn’t wish to question her, but as I stood there in her home, I became aware that her emotionally ill husband/pastor was being oppressed by some kind of demonic influence. Yet, if I had told her so, she would have denied it. Through my own quiet prayer that night it was cast out, and the next morning he was back to normal. It was awesome. Only, it didn’t last. Maybe it is because of our ignorance in these matters, that we as a church fail to avail ourselves of all that Christ has offered us. Maybe we have merged with our culture too much.... I fear I am blind to so much. May God strive with me!
Diane

It was a rhetorical question.

I will continue to pray with Jesus "even so come Lord Jesus"

If you cant look for his coming(Jesus not Antichrist) you may want to reconsider your position.

Amen?

David

Brothertom said,
"I have no need to strive with your secret rapture theory."

OK, you choose to infer things and I bring scripture.
I have never used or heard secret rapture except by post trib believers.

Brothertom said;
"They would argue that they are in tribulation today, along with the multitudes of historic martyrs"

How can you use this as a basis for interpreting the word?
So do you also believe that if a tribe in Africa is offended by the gospel we should all become apostate because we use a nations experience to determine our position concerning the word of God?
Under your premise(not well thought out at all)
The saints that "sleep" and are resurrected at the rapture actually escape ANY tribulation .
Thereby cheating God himself as if God has a flaw in his plan to see us all suffer (for some purifying?}
That sounds so Roman Catholic.

David

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Let us do this in Love, wanting the truth confirmed by the Holy Spirit, no matter who it come through.

1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

The price? The Cross.

In Christ: Phillip