Revival in Florida??

http://www.charismamag.com/news/archives/042208d.html

Does anyone know what is happening there? Thanks and God bless.

I believe that many people will miss revival because they do not like the package that it comes in...In my opinion Todd Bentley is the real deal.

He was saved out of a lifestyle of drugs, abuse, and many other bondages. He has an intense hunger for God, and after his salvation experience at age 19 would spend 4 to 12 hours a day in God's presence and word. Read his book, Journey into the Miraculous for his whole testimony. His book, Christ's healing touch is also very good.

Again, I think many people miss revival for several reasons:
1.) They don't like the package it comes in
2.) They have a preconcieved idea of what it has to look like.
3.) They want it to come through themselves, not somebody else.

Lets be discerning, but lets also be careful not to judge by natural eyes only.

I find it amazing that a website that focuses so much on revival persecutes modern moves of God...probably if we were living in the days of historic revivals we would judge them too...

I will boldly state that this is not revival.

All one needs to do is look at bits of each clip to get a feel of what this is and what it is not. Where is the fear of the Lord?

I pray for revival and am open to what ever the Lord brings, but this screams of Benny Hinn all over it.

I encourage everyone who profess to be a follower of Christ, everyone who is jealous for his church purity in these last day, everyone who has a burden for revival to read this short book by Art Katz

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21127&forum=34]Anatomy of Deceptionby Art Katz[/url]

Excerpt

[i]

The account of Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts is a remarkable episode of an incident that occurred in another age, in an hour when the Spirit of God prevailed in such magnitude and purity that the very same act which might well be applauded today, resulted, in that day, in sudden judgment and death. By applauded, I mean that we do not ask questions about those who give great contributions to the Church, but instead, we give such a person a place of honor and acknowledgement, a deacon at least, if not an elder. But the Church, which identified the lie and was not impressed with the sum, is not the Church of today.

It was the Church in its glory then, because it was alert to the issue of truth and deception, because it knew that before the Spirit of God manifests as the Spirit of power, He is first and foremost the Spirit of truth. When truth is disallowed, when truth is compromised, can we think that the dove is going to be around to perform the expressions of power that serve our needs and gratify our souls, if we have forsaken Him and His first designation and identity as the Spirit of truth? There needs to be a jealous regard for the truth that Peter exercised, enabling him to discern the fraud of a man and his wife giving a sum of money, however impressive, presenting it as the whole, though it was only in part.

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.”

And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came upon all who heard of it (Acts 5:3-5).

Almost in the next breath we read,

And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico (Acts 5:12).

In other words, the respect for the Spirit of God as the Spirit of truth makes way for the Spirit of God as the Spirit of power. The contemporary Church has reversed it; we have celebrated the power, the signs, the wonders, and relegated the truth to a distant consideration, if indeed, any consideration at all. And which of us has not played the game of giving the part and making that to appear to be the whole?

There was a time when we used to say that the truth is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or it is a lie. It is the whole truth, or it is not the truth. Any disqualification, any cutting of corners, anything less than what is whole and full converts what seems to be impressive into a lie. I take pains to dwell on this because it is a statement of the Church today; we have only given part, but we call that part the whole, when it is only a part. We have not the reticence, the modesty or the meekness appropriate to a Church whose Lord is the Lamb, because we are full of hype and exaggeration, pompous ambition and activity, and think that that constitutes the whole.

So we need to ask ourselves, are we doing anything different from what Ananias and Sapphira did when we seek and expect the evidence and power of a life totally given to God, while giving ourselves only in part, but presuming to have given ourselves wholly? We all want the semblance of these things, the comfort of the Spirit, the intimate communion, but we want it at the lesser price of acknowledging truth only in a doctrinal sense, or in the sense of being correct, rather than acknowledging truth as the very sum and substance of the reality of our lives. We want to speak truth, but not to be true; we want correct words, we want to acknowledge truth, but not to obey it. We are bringing our partial, phraseological truth and making that to stand for the whole, as if we have the reality that we are describing.[/i]

Dear Group,
I got an email from Andrew Strom today, concerning this very very deep deception. In fact many truths of the Bible are taken out of context. The new doctrine which is being perpetrated is the one concerning the Third Heaven. Only Paul records going there, and this was a real personal experience that he hardly wanted to share it. Now they want to travel there, so much so that demons, who know what we ask carelessly, come to possess and come to oppress. May God help the apostate Church.

Hearty Amen to you post Krispy,

What is deception in the first place? Sad, so very sad to see so many that fail to measure all things by the Word... written, and displayed by the Word made flesh.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Clint

So if the message is ALL shaking,laughing ,falling,trances are false and of the devil,.....if this is the message you need to wake up.

Even C&MA leader A. W. Tozer also spoke positively of holy laughter:

Now I say that worship is subject to degrees of perfection and intensity. There have been those who worshiped God to the place where they were in ecstasies of worship. I once saw a man kneel at an altar, taking Communion. Suddenly he broke into holy laughter. This man laughed until he wrapped his arms around himself as if he was afraid he would bust just out of sheer delight in the presence of Almighty God. . . . So worship is capable of running from the very simple to the most intense and sublime.26

Spontaneously Dancing for Joy

During the Welsh revival of 1859, "many leaped and danced in the exuberance of their rapture."27 Sometimes related to the laughing phenomenon is a spontaneous dancing for joy. Praying Hyde, a staid Presbyterian, is described after a time of intense prayer at the Sialkot Convention (similar to Keswick), "He begins to sing, 'Tis done, the great transaction's done,' and he is so full of joy that his whole body begins to move, he claps his hands, then his feet begin to move, and look! he begins to dance for joy, and others join him until the whole place rings with God's praises."28 Such dancing also occurred upon occasion in C&MA meetings. Simpson writes of an African-American C&MA meeting he visited in 1895: "We witnessed a sacred dance by about fifty of the women." They swayed and moved arms and feet, keeping time to the music. "The effect was truly grand."29 As Vinson Synan notes, for some holiness groups, spontaneous dance or holy laughter was considered an evidence of Holy Spirit baptism.30

Physical Sensations

Such manifestations of laughing or falling were sometimes accompanied by unusual bodily sensations. Charles Finney avowed his baptism in the Spirit was "like a wave of electricity, going through and through me."31 Early C&MA pastor Dr. E. D. Whiteside's testimony of healing in 1888 included both physical sensations and falling under the power of the Spirit: "Like a flash of electricity, I was instantly thrilled. Every point of my body and nerves was controlled by a strange sensation that increased in volume, until I bowed lower and lower to the floor. I was filled with the ecstatic thrill. My physical frame was unable to stand the strain."32 Reminiscent of holy laughter, he reported that he felt he was on the verge of "dying from overjoy."33 The C&MA journals record many instances of physical sensations like heat, electrical shocks or bright lights accompanying healing.34

Maybe a little clarification is in order.
Or possibly the Holy Spirit doesnt need our permission?

David

Did Christians come out against the manifestations of praying hyde,Finney,and Tozer.

Yes they called it the devil.

It doesnt matter where the revival breaks out there will be scores of believers to try and thwart it.
Why? I dont know ,possibly jealousy

David

Dear David, we see things different my beloved brother, can we at least not call it "Holy" laughter?

this is never so in the scriptures, God is holy, heaven is holy, his son is holy, the angels are holy, the spirit is holy. But never is it said laughter is.

I think we should not be to fast to call things Holy that God does not say in scripture is holy.

Brother Christian

So if the message is ALL shaking,laughing ,falling,trances are false and of the devil,.....if this is the message you need to wake up.

And from another thread:

Most people are so sure of their preconceived fallacy they think they defend the faith and God himself when in actuality they oppose the Holy Spirit

Amen to that quote.... But what precisely does the Holy Spirit do? According the Lord Jesus Christ:
John 14:26 (KJV) 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,[b]whatsoever I have said unto you. [/b]

John 16:8 - 11 (KJV) 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world [b]of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [/b] 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Those of us who, like Art Katz have chronicled the fall of classical Pentecostalism into the neo-charismatic movement and have seen our share of "miracles" and "gifts" and the names that are glorified and the naive little wannabes who are ever seeking for the fame and prestige of these "charisma stars" who shine for just a little while and fade into oblivion, most of the time leaving behind them a legacy of disillusionment, scams, sham and hypocrisy, are not quite as gullible as to call every "ha, ha, hee, hee" holy...quite the contrary. The trail of sin and unrighteousness and confusion and ripping apart of churches that has been caused by so many of these so called “revivals”, not to mention the confusion that has been spread by so many of those that have sought to imitate them, will never be calculated this side of eternity.

The vast difference in those whose names are chronicled in these quotations in order to justify what cannot be justified by bringing their names alongside of the current phenomenon that Art Katz was giving great caution against, is that the joy of the Lord and the rare occasions of those spiritual experiences in their lives were the by-products of seeking God, not seeking experiences. And to take those names and the rarity of what they experienced and the holy fruit of their lives and put it alongside the barking, laughing, rolling in the floor, slithering like snakes, falling down, soulish, "manifestations" that are attributed to the Holy Spirit is disgusting to say the least.

Where is the humility, the Christ likeness, the holiness, the righteousness, the changing of the whole moral climate of those affected by these “revivals”? In fact, the evidence is so often so very clear here on SI that:
(Galatians 5:22 - 24 (KJV) 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ) is severely missing in post after post and thread after thread in the very tenor of belligerence of the defense of the most blatant twisting and perversions of the Gospel in order to uphold the “names” of some favorite charismatic “star” rather than to lift up the crucified Christ and the very essence of the apostolic faith, [i]a life crucified to the world and the world crucified to them. [/i]

What is deception? It is being led to believe that what is not true is true. If it were not deceptive, if there were not signs and wonders and “evidences” to deceive, it would not be called deception. But what is the source of deception except the liar and deceiver Satan? What is the purpose of deception? It is to get the focus off of Christ and on to [u]something or someone else. [/u] And what is the fruit of deception, and if the fruit, also a part of the root? It is sin. There is a deficiency of the humility that is in Christ, or a seeking of justification of something somewhere forbidden or unlike the Lord Jesus Christ.

This town and in fact this part of this state has been a magnet for deceivers through the years. Many of them have stopped in little ole Monroe and raised their thousands of dollars on their way to the next stop in their little claim to earthly fame for the short while. Where are the fruits of their labor? What revival of holy living did they bring? NONE, just a big crowd that turned out from every church in town, not at all interested in hearing the way of the cross, but merely something that titillated the flesh, got them all excited for a few nights, getting “healed” or “slain in the ‘spirit’”, getting their emotions stirred, and after the little splash in the local paper, Kulman, Roberts, Osbourne, Lowery, McKaig, and a host more of the big names that are no names today passed through and left a trail of mess for the faithful local pastors to have to deal with… false expectations, despite for the way of the cross, and a bunch of wannabes that claimed to have received the “gift”.

From this very town, one name has been bandied around on this site... sad, extremely sad.

Isaiah 8:19 - 20 (KJV) 19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 57:15 (NKJV) 15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Where is the humility in all these bogus claims???
Where is the humility for that matter in defending them???

Where is the likeness of those men whose names are referred to to justify such excesses?

Where is the discernment of the times in which we are living?

God help us that we do not continue to have to defend the once and for all settled faith and all the excellent preaching that speaks of real revival against these "wandering stars... clouds without water" against whom the Word of God has so clearly warned us. The sins get exposed right and left and yet another "star" arises, and rush, rush, like a shark to blood "to see", to experience when the experience of God that the real men of God who have been slandered by association here found their experiences in the private closets of prayer and rose from those prayers to exalt Jesus Christ alone and not their "experiences".

Clint

Krispy,
by the same token Andrew strom is not God?
You always claim superiority and your word is so final.
revival ALWAYS has opposition.It is always opposed. Men will never stop being men and the devil will use whatever,especially believers to stop ANY revival.

I an NOT a Tod Bently fan.
I am also not in favor of calling ministries the devil.
Quote;
Does the Holy Spirit need our permission. Nope. However, the Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict scripture, which is God's Word... which He esteems even higher than His own name... and He will NEVER contradict God's character... because He is God.

You mean your perception of what you THINK is God and what isn't?

David

There is however a danger of dismissing it out of hand. The Bereans did not accept Paul's teaching until they saw it in scripture. How much of us today! Let us search the scriptures. :-)

"I'm a trainwreck standing on grace"-- krsipy

did you come up with that line yourself?, if you did can i borrow it? or is it copyrighted?

andy

I am also very wary of the name calling. Today if we were to criticise a ministry of someone, could they take us to court for libel? A point to remember. In the end, even if they are in error, they are still God's anointed. Look at David. God rejected Saul, but he allowed God to remove him. David just got on with preparing himself for his ministry. :-)

we have to do what banks do...acquaint ourselves with the true then the false will be exposed straight away. :-)

anointing is a worn word today. We call anointing whatever inspires...in itself is error. If it were real anointing, we would not keep on our feet, and our sense of the Fear of the Lord would grow. Anointing is not mentioned much, but PRESENCE and Glory is mentioned a lot. :-)

Depends who is anointed...not for us to decide though is it? :-)

DEPENDS ON HOW YOU SEE PREPARATION...for me the Bible is plain, being sold off by your family, taking cheeses to the soldiers, being chased by spears, being chased like a flea, being betrayed by bread from the tabernacle, being cursed, stoned, and that was just light compared to Paul LOL. My preparation has been similar to this...and it was light and momentary LOL. :-)

Amen Brothertom,

The sad irony of it all is the fact that everything in scripture regarding the end times regardless of where we come down on the issue of pre, mid, or post trib, points to "decievers growing worse and worse, decieving and being decieved", the Lord warning repeatedly regarding these days, "Take heed that no man deceive you”. in fact the word “deceive” in one form or another is repeated 5 times in Matthew 24 alone with the MAJOR emphasis regarding these days by Paul, Peter, Jude and the Lord regarding these days is the warning regarding DECEPTION. What better place, from the demonic standpoint of our adversary, to deceive than in those churches that just a few decades ago were experiencing the most phenomenally genuine revivals and outpouring of the Spirit of God in truly apostolic measure… Just as Simon the sorcerer saw the gifts of the Spirit and the miracles that were truly done to confirm that the LORD JESUS is indeed the LIVING Christ, thought, “I could use this to make some REAL MONEY”; these last day charlatans have made a mockery of the Gospel, and are just as Paul said, “enemies to the cross of Christ, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things” (Phlp 3:18-19).

And the second irony is that while these are promising liberty or rather are claiming “liberty in the Holy Ghost”, time after time after time they prove to be slaves of their own corruption.
This is no accusation, but rather, a call for examination… for those who so often come here lauding those who have done some “mighty” thing to look into their own hearts and souls and spirits to see where they really are with the HOLY LORD JESUS CHRIST before whom we shall all stand to give account of every word, and deed. What good are all the claims of healing, gifts, “power”, and etc., when we stand naked and stripped of every bogus claim as the ONE whose eyes are as a flame of fire looks into every motive and thought alongside His HOLY WORD to judge us?

The third irony is that amidst all the seeking after healing, is the absolute assurance in the Word of God that the last days are going to be marked with suffering… suffering wrongfully for doing right, suffering betrayals by those who think they are doing God a favor by betraying and murdering, suffering persecutions, tribulations, isolation, mocking, and martyrdom for the cause of Christ. For those who believe in the pre-trib rapture, there are still the “birth pains”, beginning of sorrows…. How pleasant is that? Got a headache, backache, toeache, toothache, let’s go to a campaign? For the rest, faith in God in the midst of scenes like Corrie ten Boon, and those in North Korea, and Indonesia, Sudan, and elsewhere, have endured and are enduring, is going to be required for God’s sustenance, for bread, water, protection, grace to remain faithful like Daniel… regardless. I find it more than amazing that this country is so madly chasing after so many things that pertain to the flesh, while in so many other countries in the world they are having their flesh stripped off of them for the cause of Christ… Is God a respecter of persons?

We know that He is not! I pray that this country wakes up and gets to know the God of Scripture, rather than the composite god that they are being led to believe is God, or else the disallusionment that is coming is going to leave far more casualties than we can imagine.

Clint

1Ti 6:3-12 If you have leaders there who teach otherwise, who refuse the solid words of our Master Jesus and this godly instruction, tag them for what they are: ignorant windbags who infect the air with germs of envy, controversy, bad-mouthing, suspicious rumors. Eventually there's an epidemic of backstabbing, and truth is but a distant memory. They think religion is a way to make a fast buck. A devout life does bring wealth, but it's the rich simplicity of being yourself before God. Since we entered the world penniless and will leave it penniless, if we have bread on the table and shoes on our feet, that's enough. But if it's only money these leaders are after, they'll self-destruct in no time. Lust for money brings trouble and nothing but trouble. Going down that path, some lose their footing in the faith completely and live to regret it bitterly ever after. But you, Timothy, man of God: Run for your life from all this. Pursue a righteous life--a life of wonder, faith, love, steadiness, courtesy. Run hard and fast in the faith. Seize the eternal life, the life you were called to, the life you so fervently embraced in the presence of so many witnesses.

Message bible

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

I watched some videos on youtube, both from Florida and some from Toronto, and i have to say i cant believe any person, who read the new testament ONCE and are in a sound healthy mind can follow this man.

I heard this man speak in a way that make Benny Hinn look like a sound preacher.

I dont recommend you search or watch anything by this man/movement. It is not of God. You will waste your time by watching this, the only good that may come is if you flee for the saving of your souls as a result from watching or listening to this man or movement.

It is not that it is different or a bit "off", it has absolutely nothing to do with God or the bible or sound doctrine, my impression is it was best summed up as a "show" with some fortunetelling and humor and bragging of who had most "cool" visions of angels and God or fire balls and pillars and on and on and on.

What has happened!

how can anyone believe this nonsense?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 [b] Abstain from all appearance of evil. [/b]

2Th 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

wake up precious children! let us not sleep in these times!

Beware my brethren for these "so-called" healing artists and prophets. God's Word has final authority of revelation. It is complete. There is no need for further prophecies. God's Word defines it all.

Also, the charismatic movement is very dangerous. I was in the movement for a brief period of time and then God annointed me with the gift of discernment and I walked away without looking back. I had many friends that are still active in the charismatic church. Be very careful of these people.

My only advice is to pray for God to give you discernment to distinguish right from wrong or false teaching.

Here are a few links to help better understand the charismatic movement and its entities and doctrine. I hope they help.

God bless you all.

Joe

http://www.mydoctrine.com/Prophets.HTM
http://www.mydoctrine.com/Apostles.HTM
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0076.htm
http://www.erwm.com/Discernment.htm
http://www.mydoctrine.com/Tongues.HTM
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults4.htm
http://www.mydoctrine.com/interpret.htm
http://logosresourcepages.org/Positions/charismatic.htm
http://e.webring.com/hub?urlid=98994257110369501&ring=discernment&yid=standardb
http://members.aol.com/twarren14/slaininspirit.html
http://www.raystedman.org/tongues/index.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/99v4n6.htm

I have many more links to share. However, these should help for now.

If anyone that is reading is involved in the "movement" please know that people are praying for God to bring discernment to His people. Please reach out for answers in prayer if you are involved in something that does not seem right. That is God talking to you through the gift of discerning true doctrine from false doctrine.

I " encourage " [i]all[/i] to go through some if not all of these sermons,
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23223&forum=34&5]Sermons on true vs false[/url]

I have not been to Lakeland.

I am NOT a "follower" of Todd Bentley.

I am a sinner saved by the Blood of Jesus, and I follow Jesus. I love Jesus.

I realize we must always have wisdom and discernment in these wicked days of deception, but the spirit of deception has been with us since a serpent bewitched Eve, it is nothing new.

But as I read the posts, written by mere men and women, though they be servants and saints of Jesus, the Lord laid three precious portions of Scripture on my heart, and I wish to share it with you, please read it prayerfully before any of you give forth more of your OPINIONS. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, fear God.

12 And it was told King David, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing. 13 And when those who bore the ark of the LORD had gone six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fattened animal. 14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might. And David was wearing a linen ephod. 15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the horn.

16 As the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart. 17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD and set it in its place, inside the tent that David had pitched for it. And David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18 And when David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts 19 and distributed among all the people, the whole multitude of Israel, both men and women, a cake of bread, a portion of meat, and a cake of raisins to each one. Then all the people departed, each to his house.
20 And David returned to bless his household. But Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, "How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants’ female servants, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!" 21 And David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the LORD—and I will make merry before the LORD. 22 I will make myself yet more contemptible than this, and I will be abased in your eyes. But by the female servants of whom you have spoken, by them I shall be held in honor." 23 And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

2nd Samuel 6:12-23 (ESV)

Michal sat in a window, and judged how David was led to worship the LORD.

27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, 28 saying, "We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

33 When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. 36 For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

Acts 5:27-39

Gamaliel, unrepentant Pharisee that he was, understood a fundamental truth of God, that if something that dresses itself up as a "move of God" is really of the flesh, it will be exposed and it will fail. If a Pharisee can grasp this truth, why can't some of the posters on this forum recognize this? Before you heap scorn upon it, risking grieving the Holy Spirit, either still your keyboard, or board a plane and test the Spirit in that part of Florida.

15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

Philippians 1:15-18

Reflect on what Paul wrote:

"Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."

I have their live stream on, only to "test the Spirit", while I give you the Scripture God laid on me, and for the last ten minutes, I hear a dear brother strumming a guitar, and singing over and over, "I will worship You".

It may counterfeit, it might be of the flesh, but of all the filthy rags in this world, must we continue to devour kindred whom worship in a way that does not jibe with how we adjudge right and befitting worship?

Be very careful brothers and sisters, guard your hearts, God will have the victory, God will adjudge, and He will have all the Glory.

I pray I have not offended any of you dear ones,
Hosiah

the main question before us all is [b]"Is this true revival"?[/b]

to answer that question we have to ask a few more questions

* Are multitude of unbelievers repenting of their sin and coming to Christ?

* Is "repentance unto Christ" the major theme of the meetings?

* Are "the cross" and "the crucified life" the heart of the messages there?

* Is Christ exalted and God truly manifest as "the Holy One" or just the One who gives us blessings and healings to make us feel better?

* Are people being saved from their sins? (lusters no longer lusting, gossippers no longer gossipping, idolators casting down their idols, etc)

* Is the unsaved public being affected by true believers manifesting Christ in a real, loving manner (helping the poor, reaching out to the lost, preaching the gospel of Christ) OR do they just see christians having "hot, good meetings"??

* Is there a true, reverant fear of the Lord soberly shaking those present there down to the core of their walk with Him or is it just "a fun time in the Lord"?

* Are those present at the meeting exhibiting a larger degree of holiness in heart and action (not as men pleasers, but because God has truly touched their lives)?

if all that is going on down there is people having "hot church", seeking "blessings" and having "a good time in the Lord", then i would not call it a true God-sent revival.

when God sends a revival, there will be many sinners being saved from their sin. backsliders will come back to Him. repentance and the cross will be the heart of the messages. the fear of the Lord will cause us to bow fearfully before a Holy God and the love of God will cause us to come and be embraced by an amazing Father. it will cause believers to forsake any known sin in their lives and walk before God in a way that they have never done so before. it will have changed their lives so greatly that the public will be affected and either take notice of it or hunger for it themselves.

revival that does not affect the lost, the public, manifest Christ as the Great I AM, greatly exalt God instead of man, change our lives and our walk, help forsake any sin, produce the fruit of the Spirit and holiness in a greater degree, or cause us to humbly seek Him and His grace for everyday is no true God-sent revival.

phil

Why are you so angry?

Correct me if I'm assuming anything, but your post to me, just bleeds out righteous fury, anger and rebuke. Why?

You just read WORDS on a screen that I wrote. You don't know me, you can't hear my voice, you don't know the avenues of my soul, the beat of my heart, yet you feel entitled to assume my state of wakefulness, or my posture before God, or even how I feel about this "revival" in Florida, because what I "feel" or "think" or "adjudge" about this "revival" matters for naught in the Economy of God.

That's the danger of saved sinners, broken clay jars, all gazing through a glass darkly, giving forth their righteous rage on what they adjudge to be counterfeit.

I quoted from Holy Scripture about what Gamliel said, because as far as Gamaliel was concerned, he wasn't speaking about Jesus. No. "The Way", as it was then called, was viewed by the religious establishment of it's day, the Pharisee's as just another strange sect of Judaism, that were popping up all over Israel at that time, and I believe what he was saying, if it's not of God, why worry, it will fail.

Michal was cursing her husband David, because she thought the style, the wild abandon and dancing with which he worshipped God WASN'T RIGHT. She had a problem with it because in her mind it was "false", or "unseemingly", it didnt fit the MOLD of the way a Godly man comported himself.

Don't for a second think I am defending Todd Bentley, but nothing grieves me more than to see those who follow Jesus to engage in this never ending cycle of devouring one another.

Even in this tiny exchange between you and me, look at the disrespectful, unloving, graceless way you write to a brother in Christ:

"In your world of live and let live that you live in"....

"You had better wake up, and get a bit more agressive about knowing God, and His voice, because your losing it, if you ever had it. I say this in concern and desire that you would not die deceived"

I "had better wake up"? "In your world?" "if you ever had it"?....what? Is that love?

is this loving one another?

Should I "wake up" so I can join you and others to gather rocks, and give these people a cyber stoning? No thanks.

In "my world", I get on my knees, pray, and watch God do the work. Do you understand?

How are you serving Christ by blasting me on an internet discussion forum, as well as blasting other hungry,(possibly decieved) seeking brethern, desperate for the Touch of God?

If even ONE soul is set alame for Christ by this ministry, then give glory to God, because that ONE soul could be led by the Holy Spirit to sally forth into the mission field to bring thousands to Christ, who knows?

God knows.

My one fear, based upon my prayer time, and what I've witnessed with my own eyes, weak as they may be, revival is not what God has laying in wait like a crouching hungry lion for the United States of America. Quite the opposite.

You see this verse over and over again in Holy Scripture:

God opposes the proud.

Dear brother Tom, with love I present the other cheek.

Hosiah

Please, dear brethren, let's not suffer shipwreck of this discussion against the jagged rock of emotional presumption. This kind of behavior has been the bane of these forums as of recent. Brother Tom, brother Hosiah is somewhat justified in his reply to you. Perhaps it's just the way you're coming across in some of your posts. Communication through this internet medium can be tricky; it requires thought and careful wording. If we want our true intentions to shine, we must salt our speech, tone, and tenor accordingly. It's far too easy for our intentions to become blurred and distorted in the eyes of others because of reckless wording and terse punctuation.

I only beseech you as brethren to work toward peace and unity, as an example to others. Agree to disagree if you must, for this is far more honorable than projecting cavil over something that may be simply remedied by adjusting the flavor of our words.

Brother Paul

You know what is really sad, the religious individuals did not beleive Jesus was the Son of the Living God. How do we know, if you are so full of religion, that do not know the Lord Jesus either? There is a big difference in knowing about Jesus and knowing Him personally. Big difference

Since you have presented the other cheek, I will slap you with this

Unless you wake up

You are asleep

You seem clueless to the destruction of error allowed. You are probably young, both in years and understanding

Have you listened to One Word that folks here are saying?

(Moderator Paul, I hope you read this too, because if this is the kind of spirit swirling around this website.....)

Tom, this dialogue reminds me of when people were bringing their children to Jesus to have Him lay hands on them, and were those disciples INDIGNANT! They rebuked the people, "get away!", I can see them, full of religioustic righteousness, because they were "in" with the Lord...yes sir. And nobody was going to be so undignified to lay possibly "unclean" children on the Son of God!

Jesus probably looked at these puffed-up disciples with a slight smile, He loved them, but they were just a mess of fleshly religious pride, and they needed to get humbled, which would happen when the Lord carried the Cross He was nailed to and they had to all go into hiding.

But Jesus told these well intentioned but spiritually immature disciples, "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, whoever does not recieve the Kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it".

That's the Lucian account of the children coming to Jesus, chapter 18, and the way you write your post to me reminds of those disciples rebuking parents bringing their children for Beautiful Jesus just to lay hands on them.

I ask your forgiveness to what I'm about to say, but I've seen many in the church like you, and what I mean is, that when you write as such to me:

Unless you wake up, your soul could be in danger, and I am saddened when one travels down the road to death.

but I will appeal to you , in possibly harsh terms, wake up. You are asleep. If this offends you, then you must travel on, but it IS my business to warn, and if I could , frighten you, so that you would be saved from the fire by any means.

You seem clueless

You are probably young, both in years and understanding.

when I read such as you wrote, directed at me, there's a gracelessness there, a spiritual arrogance, a hardness to your words, that does not jibe and line up with the Love of Christ, nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And as I said, I HAVE seen many bear such witness in the Church, which is why to the world, we appear so loveless. Imagine if a secular atheist was to read the words you wrote to me, could he say, "look how they love one another?"

and let me tell you something else, you dare write to me, that

You don't get that there is an Apostasy happening , right in front of our eyes!

The great falling away is happening NOW, world wide, but we should not condemn it?

I see the apostasy, and my indignant friend, it's much larger than a bunch of fleshlings rolling around on the floor, pretending to be drunk, barking like dogs....MUCH LARGER THAN THAT!

YOU SAY A "WORLD WIDE FALLING AWAY"?!?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING IN CHINA? DO YOU THINK 150 MILLION UNDERGROUND HOUSE CHURCH MEMBERS IS A "FALLING AWAY"?!?

Chinese house church pastors, taken en masse, beaten and jailed for the Name of Jesus?

Ethiopian pastors, Somali Pastors, Hindu believers, killed, beaten, burned, Uzbekistan pastors shot in the head, take a cyber trip over to Voice of the Martyr's before you dare talk to me about a "world wide falling away"....the only falling away I see is RIGHT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, where the top rated TV program is entitled "American Idol", a land where leading pastors are exposed as either greedy charlatans, who dont even have the grace to be financially accountable,buying airplanes and 16000 sq foot mansions or they're perverted closet homosexuals with an appetite for male prostitutes and crystal meth.

Go to Voice of the Martyr's

[url=http://www.persecution.com/]Voice of the Martyr's[/url]

sign up for their newsletters, with prayer points, see if you can be of any service to Jesus, and get on your knees and intercede for these men and women of God WHO ARE WILLING TO RISK ALL before you start lecturing me about "being asleep".

dear brother Paul the moderator, I certainly hope this isn't the typical witness on this website, because if it is, God help you all.

Please forgive me and let me sign off before I loose my temper.

God bless all the saints on Sermonindex.

Hosiah Freeman

you beat me to it.

Beloved, I'm not Tom's "opponent", and I certainly won't be so tiresome and argumentative to dig my heels in. Either I'll leave, still my keyboard, and say nothing, because i am nothing. a nobody, burnt out to everything, dying to self, a process that's been happening for a few years now, Praise God.

It doesnt feel good, dying to self, but it's what He requires, you have no worries with me, if I smell a spirit of argumentativeness here, you'll never see me on this website again, and I say that in love.

That's what the Church needs, more love, less self, more Jesus.

Hosiah

ps...these discernment threads, didnt Paul say something about whatever is pure, whatever is noble, etc...think about such things?

you know as well as I do, every revival had its detractors....hmmm? Look at how they fought and opposed Evan Roberts, or Duncan Campbell, many others I could mention. Good night and may God bless you.

dear brother Paul the moderator, I certainly hope this isn't the typical witness on this website, because if it is, God help you all.

I implore all of us to pray in this area. May God grant us all the wisdom of a Christ-honoring conversation.

Hosiah,

And to other new posters here, first off, welcome to SermonIndex.

Please read through some of the posts in the welcome section, it will help you get a feel for the site.

For all we know some of the newer posters here may be familiar with the site but have not posted before. Either way, it is helpful and encouraged to at least bring something of an introduction. We attempt to do things a bit differently here than what you may be accustom to and expect everyone to engage cordially at a minimum.

To the issue at hand ... That this has brought out by those who have been on the sidelines or happened to find SermonIndex by a search of this present situation, please, again, read through at the least; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14144&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url] It is not at all helpful to begin here with accusations or insinuations in first postings. To those who ought to know better ... perhaps a review.

Spare the personal barbs and jabs and the retaliations, this is unnecessary. There are serious concerns about what is happening there with this situation and at the same time that shouldn't be inflating the rhetoric or bringing accusation in an off handed and generalized comments with those one has no knowledge about.

Thank you for the welcome.

Before my first post, on this thread, I prayed before I wrote one word, and most of that post was three Bits of Scripture the Lord laid on my heart, that was all. I testifying using the only worthy Measure I know of, Scripture.

and as I said in that post, I am no defender of Todd Bentleys ministry, nor have I been to Lakeland, FLA, nor do I have ANY interest in prolonged debates with other posters. I was a bit bemused that Tom assumed so much of my walk with Christ and my life I must say, I'm not used to that. I dont find it edifying for me personally, I don't mean that as a "jab".

what does it matter what i think? as I stated to the other moderator, i'm a nobody, I just laid out the Scripture passages He gave me, and thats an end of it. Forgive my ignorance, but I dont see where I made any "accusation" or "insinuation" with my first post. Nor did I realize I had to make an introduction, seems rather forced and not authentic, what do I say about myself? My name is Hosiah Freeman, I'm a follower of Jesus, I read my Bible everyday, I'm slowly dying to self, I pray, I stumble, I get up, and Jesus loves me. Hi.

God bless you, Hosiah

Hi :-), brother.

I have on too many occasions got to swinging my sword, defending the faith, and in the throes of battle allowed my soul to get away from the sweetness of the Spirit of God. In those moments I am checked by Him, who sees me so well and loves me still...it is nonetheless a hard thing to die.

If one discerns, or there is a consensus that something , like this issue, is of Satan, or not, what is your idea of a salted tongue?

When the pharisees were called vipers, and the like, and the money changers were whipped, were they offended? People do not like to be called deceived.

So , tell me Paul, where do you stand ? Is this a move of God in Lakeland?..Do you feel that Josiah should remain tuned in, or would you tell him to reconsider?

I assume he feels comforted now, that a moderator has vindicated him.

Tone down the rhetoric.
Re-read your own posts individually.

It's the personal, childlike arguing and squabbling and worse defending of just poor conduct ... Shall we call for the mothers to come in and settle this?

I think this is no revival whatsoever that is taking place and have some very strong opinions about the whole thing. I came right out of the likes of this stuff. Watching just a few minutes of the head pushing, blowing and Benny Hinn style theatrics was enough to grieve and pray the Lord would just shut the whole of it down before people begin getting truly hurt.

There is nothing in this but more of the same styled antics and incredibly ... unbelievable reproach of what Christianity truly is and the testimony of the Lord being not at all considered. It is unbiblical and characteristically not anything akin to anything the scripture teaches, in conduct, in spirit or in precedence. The people may be as sincere as any who frequent these pages, the pastor just as well for all that we know, but it is no less a deception and a running away with the imagination than any other aberration that haunts the greater realms of Christendom.

For those who have come here to be contentious or feel that this is just another forum\\board where anything goes, let me assure you that it is not. Just as well, though we try our best to be patient with all, this is not a site that is in any way aligned with nor supportive of ministries of this ilk.

All that being said, the conduct of the members here is expected to be cordial and without personal squabbling.

SermonIndex is committed to those things that are stated in the sections mentioned earlier and to those that are contained here in audio sermons and articles.

An "evangelist" Todd Bentley who teaches New Age teachings and gnosticism, is heading up this "revival" at an offshoot of the former Carpenters Home Church.

Please check out these teachings from the "evangelist's" own website, freshfire.ca

[url=http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=218]Face to Face Encounter, part 1.[/url]
[url=http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=219]Face To Face Encounter, part 2. ....Paul and Abraham wrote Hebrews... 7 heavens, the fifth(above God's throne) not as peaceful.... Hidden mysteries and revelation..etc [/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23237&forum=34&1]Toronto Vineyard Pastor[/url] - Testimony

What we need to think about is that this man over and over again, claim to have revelation outside of the bible, i read a "biblestudy" and this man overand overagain claim things that is not to be found in the WORD, it may sound boring to some, legalistic, religius or name it what ever. But the fact is. If it is not founded upon the eternal word of God. Reject it.....

here are some quotes from this man:

In recent months, the Lord has taken me up several times, in the Spirit, to a particular place in the Heavenly realm. I call this place the land of promises. This place was lush and flourishing with the life of God. The very atmosphere of this place was radiating with the presence of the Lord. It had the feeling of Spring when all things are new and refreshing. All around I could see rainbows reminding me of the promises of God throughout His word and the personal promises and prophecies that have been delivered from His mouth to His people throughout history. I instinctively knew that this was the place where these promises were found, activated, and brought down to the earth realm.

the land of promises? verse please......

In this experience I simply laid down in the grass in order to enjoy the heavenly atmosphere of this place. While lying there I saw two angels approaching me and they began to feed me with honey. Honey in the Bible is symbolic of revelation. I believe, in this experience, the honey represented a spirit of wisdom and revelation that was being placed upon me in greater measure in order to comprehend, in the spirit, the things that were about to take place.

honey?

The Lord then turned and walked away, but as he left, this mist or glory cloud, began to completely envelop me. I knew it was Holy Spirit! The atmosphere changed when this other member of the Godhead moved in. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said that when He is present He brings with Him the atmosphere of creation. He then said something that astounded me: "Ask what you will and it will be done for you!"

Mat 4:8-9 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

I saw a whirlwind come down from heaven carrying multitudes of angels. This whirlwind wrapped around the people lying on the floor and was pulling them upward in the spirit. Meanwhile, the angels were going around sprinkling something on the hearts of those on the floor. I asked the Lord what they were doing and He said they were ministering spirits sent to carry His presence from the Throne Room of heaven and impart it to these people. He said that He was imparting a fresh hunger for heavenly things to their hearts. The direction of their heart's hunger and craving was literally being redirected by the impartation from heaven!

angels imparting fresh hunger?? verse please

Years ago I had an experience that reaffirms my emphasis on intimacy with the Holy Spirit. I was soaking in the presence of the Lord one day and telling Holy Spirit that I wanted to know Him more. Suddenly the whole atmosphere in the room changed and I was filled and overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. I immediately entered the realm of the spirit and found myself floating in a river. I was weeping as waves of His presence coursed through my body. Suddenly, this eagle mask appeared in my hand and I heard the Lord say, "Put it on!" I obeyed and as soon as I put the mask on my face, in my vision, wings started to sprout and grow out of my back. The wings sprouted and I suddenly shot out of the water and began to soar in the heavenly realms. I could literally feel the sensations of flying in my natural body! In the midst of soaring I ran into Jesus and He was stunning! He reached out a scepter and touched my forehead. My whole body instantly turned golden and I could feel "purpose" enter my spirit like electricity. I was infused with the purposes of God.

here is a short excerpt from another "teaching" from this man, notice all the scriptures.

If you get hold of the truth I am going to give you in this teaching, it will revolutionize your life. This message on Prophetic Decrees will help you contend for your healing and help you to know what your responsibility is with every prophetic word and every prophetic promise that God has given you. Some of you have had prophetic words over your life for twenty years. It's been great to get those prophetic words, but you've been left wondering what to do next: "Ok God, that's great. Now how do I bring these words of the Lord to pass?" you may have asked. "Do I need to do something with what was spoken to me? How do I birth the prophetic word? How do I see my prophetic promises fulfilled?"

Even though this is a prophetic message, I'm also going to tie in the subject of miracles and how to prophetically call them into manifestation in the natural realm. I believe this message will give you a foundation for miraculous manifestations in and through your life. The revelation that I'm about to share with you actually helped birth our whole ministry. You're going to learn how to receive mysteries in the spirit-how to take things out of the invisible through God's creative power and transfer them onto the earthly scene to create your destiny. Now some of you may be thinking, "Whoa, I don't know-that sounds a little New Age to me." Don't worry; I'm going to lay out sound biblical principles. I will show you how to release destiny through a visitation with the Holy Spirit, the word of the Lord and by speaking out that word. This process of speaking things into existence, I call making a prophetic decree.

[url=http://www.upstreamca.org/activating_proph.html]source[/url]

Which is all the more reason, we should guard our hearts closely and focus intently on Jesus.

There is nothing more tragic than a sound witness gone bad. Pray hard it never happens to any of us.

We are not unaware of the schemes of the devil, a totally defeated foe, but still cunning and dangerous.

But God, WILL and DOES get all the Glory.

in that faith we rest. Praise His Glorious Name!

It's a 4 minute clip from Pond Inslet up in Inuit country.

I cry with joy when I watch it. a small church up in the frozen north visited by God in revival.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLeNcSZA0tw]Revival Fire in the Artic[/url]

Best thing to do is to pray I think at this moment.

Hosiah wrote:
Which is all the more reason, we should guard our hearts closely and focus intently on Jesus.

There is nothing more tragic than a sound witness gone bad. Pray hard it never happens to any of us.

We are not unaware of the schemes of the devil, a totally defeated foe, but still cunning and dangerous.

But God, WILL and DOES get all the Glory.

in that faith we rest. Praise His Glorious Name!

Yes very true, but we are called to love, God is Love, he is also truth, And if we love him we love the truth.

And we can not accept anything that is not true, or partially true, or almost true or name it how ever, all the rest from the genuine is false.

If we build on a foundation that is not the true one.

if we preach not what is true.

it is false.

It is not love to ignore falsehood in the name of love to avoid "hurting" , "offending" or even make people mad or angry or whatever.

Should we pray? absolutely! we should weep and groan before the throne.

Will god get the glory? yes, God would get glory even if all of humanity would bow down to satan he would still get the glory.

But in these days it has become a "bad" thing to discern or call out the false.

We need to be like Daniel and his three friends, when ALL the others of Israel, all off Gods children compromised and mixed true and false in babylon. They stood up. They did not bow the knee.

Yesterday i read a verse and it AMAZED me. The whole of Israel could have escaped babylon. They could have got mercy instead of judgement. The awesome judgement we read from the prophets all who died and was enslaved and taken away, mothers weeping for dead husbands and children. Just read lamentations.

and one verse says

Jer 5:1 Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.

One man!

there was not even one man in all of Gods chosen people. They had much religion and meetings and other things going on. But not one single man.

People enjoy listen to these false prophesies and prophets.

another reason why God judged his children was this

2Ch 36:14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.
2Ch 36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:
2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

No one wants the hard words of truth any more. The Church are in the world(heathen). There is no line, no wall, no separation. Anything goes.

But when we urge people to discern, which can be done wrongfully, and in a wrong spirit also. There is a pharisee way about everything. But as you say throwout the baby with the bathwater.

But this has NO FOUNDATION WHATSOEVER in THE WORD OF GOD. yet people follow this dreamer and false teacher/prophet. Woe unto me if i am quiet.

I am far from perfect myself, but how can i say i love God, the truth if I accept anything else?

I am speaking as a babe in Christ and sometimes as a fool.

But the bible says and warns us that God may give us up as he gave up the Israelites. I know that dont match with some doctrines, but the word says so.

We need to be standing up for the truth, for what we belive in these days when anything goes.

For me this kind is as heretical as Jehovas witnesses or the mormons. What is the difference between the mormons outside bible revelations and this mans?

nothing, if we accept him we can accept the mormons to.

How we lowered the watchtower and walls! we teared them down so much anything can come in, we opened the doors to ALL in the name of love and there is chaos and Gods name is being blasphemed among the gentiles because of what we failed to uphold.

We all need to repent that we are not more zealous and wholehearted for the TRUTH.

May God have more mercy upon us then he had upon the Israelites, because our sin i fear is much greater then theirs.

Forgive me if i sound harsh or so, i think in Swedish and write in English and lack the great vocabulary so many of you have.

But I pray you will se my heart and my point.

brother christian