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What Does Your's Say?

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Sound Christian Doctrine has been greatly affected by the changes to the Authorized Version of the Bible. The [b]MINORITY Text is the source of these changes and the New Modern Versions usually follow that Text[/b]. It is unthinkable that men and women of God would continue to advocate the use of these versions when they are in complete possession of all the facts. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to guide us into "all truth." May he be allowed to have his way in our hearts.

One of the main issues confronting the Chruch today is "sound doctrine". [b]It should be quite clear, after looking at the following comparison of only one Book in the New Testament, the Book of Acts, that the problem has been created by the modern versions themselves:[/b]


ACTS
Title "of the Holy Apostles" is deleted. To leave us with "ACTS" means nothing. That the Apostles were sanctified (holy) by the Lord Jesus and sent forth as his sent ones is evident from John 17:17- 19. The title in the MAJORITY Text is doctrinally correct.

2:30 "according to the flesh he would raise up Christ" is omitted. It was not just that one of David's descendants would sit upon the throne, but that his greater Son would be raised from the dead in a body of flesh.

2:31 "his soul" is omitted. The body of Christ was in the tomb but his soul went down into Hades (Hell), the place of departed spirits. The teaching of the Bible is that our Lord had a body, soul and spirit.

2:47 "to the church" is left out. Believers are added to the Church which is Christ's body. The Church is an organism, and when persecutors touched the Church they touched Christ (see 9:5).

3:21 "all" is dropped in front of "his holy prophets." God has spoken of the Kingdom age by the mouth of ALL his prophets since the world began. In harmony with this Jesus spoke to the two on the road to Emmaus about himself from "all the prophets" (see Luke 24:27). There are others in the world who claim to be prophets but they do not speak of Jesus and his kingdom, therefore they are not of God.

3:26 "Jesus" is dropped. The specific name leaves no doubt as to whom God raised up from the dead to offer again the kingdom to Israel.

4:24 "thou art God" is changed to "thou art he who." There is no reason to accept MINORITY manuscripts when they want to change "God" to "he who" (see 1 Tim. 3:16).


6:3 The word "Holy" is dropped. When God led the Church to choose deacons he made it clear that they should be controlled by the Holy Spirit. Many churches since have appointed men who had a lot of spirit and were full of enthusiasm, but that is not the same as being full of the "Holy Ghost." Godly living is required of deacons and it is contrary to sound doctrine to leave out "Holy." The Greek word for spirit can refer to man's spirit or God's spirit and lest we should err here God inserted the word "Holy" before spirit.

6:8 "faith" is changed to "grace." The Bible does not teach that Christians are full of grace but rather that they receive grace. The only one who was "full of grace" was our Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:14). The measure of faith is given to every believer to profit thereby.

7:30 "of the Lord" is omitted. It was not just an angel that appeared to Moses at the burning bush, it was an angel of Jehovah (the Lord). This was an Old Testament appearance of the eternal Son of God in angelic form. In plain words it was the Lord who appeared to Moses (see Exodus 3:1-5).

7:37 "The Lord your" and "him shall ye hear" are omitted. This is contrary to the original quotation as found in Deut. 18:15. In Stephen's sermon the "him shall ye hear" is most important since those who refuse Christ's words will be judged by God.

8:18 "Holy" is dropped. Four times here in four verses the Holy Ghost is mentioned. To drop the word Holy in one out of the four times is to create confusion and doubt concerning the Word of God.

8:37 The whole verse is omitted. This leaves the question of the Ethiopian eunuch unanswered. Philip's answer is correct in that belief must be from the heart prior to baptism. The eunuch's confession of faith is in exact agreement with what is required for salvation as given in John 20:31. Souls have been led to Christ with this verse of Scripture and it is doctrinally unsound to remove it.

9:5,6 "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him" is all omitted. This passage gives us a picture of Saul resisting the Spirit of God as he was under conviction. Saul's response is to submit to the Lord's direction, having been humbled before the Lord. Without Saul's "what wilt thou have me to do?" there could be no "arise and go."

9:29 "Jesus" is left out. The reason the Jews went about to slay Saul was not because he spake boldly in the name of the Lord, but because he spoke of the Lord Jesus. As we well know in this day of Modernism there is a great difference.

10:6 "he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do" is left out. The would- be correctors of the MAJORITY Text would have us believe that Cornelius was already saved and that it would be good for him to have fellowship with Peter. The truth is that Cornelius was not saved (see 11:14) and that there was something which he had to do. He must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or he would be lost and go to Hell.

10:30 "fasting" is left out. Fasting, to find the will of God, is a Biblical doctrine. Though it is little used today, especially since we have the completed Word of God, it was evident in the New Testament apostolic times.

10:32 "who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee" is omitted. See above comments under 10:6.

15:24 "Ye must be circumcised and keep the law" is left out. This is exactly the reason why the Jerusalem council was called or convened. There is no doubt that the reply to the Gentile converts made mention of the all important question.

16:31 "Christ" is omitted. The word speaks of the Deity of Christ. It pointed the Philippian jailer to the God he must believe in for salvation.

18:5 "was pressed in the Spirit" is changed to "was engrossed with the word." When Paul was teaching he was always engrossed with the Word. In Corinth Paul had been laying the groundwork at the synagogue concerning what the Scriptures had to say about their Messiah (Christ). When Silas and Timothy came, Paul was under compulsion to show that Jesus was the Christ.

19:10 "Jesus" is left out. For the heathen to hear about the Lord is not enough. They must hear that Jesus is that Lord.

20:28 "of God" is changed to "of the Lord." The word lord is sometimes used of men and sometimes of God. Therefore, the change does not affirm the Deity of Christ. Our Authorized King James Version shows that God purchased the church with his own blood. This establishes the Deity of Christ irrefutably.

21:25 "they observe no such thing, save only that" is omitted. The Gentiles had been told that they did not have to observe the law of Moses nor circumcise their children (see Acts 15:23-29). James was in error when he sought to keep the Jews obedient to the Law after he had written to the Gentiles that they were not under it. The omission here leaves one with the impression that the Law was optional for the Gentiles and possibly preferable. Tampering with God's Word always leaves the door open for doctrinal error.

26:28 "almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" is changed to "do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" King Agrippa was "almost persuaded" and he was in possession of the truth concerning salvation. The change would have us believe that he needed more information and perhaps Paul was too quick to expect a decision

[b]I know that there is sharp disagreement on this issue. Rather than disagreeing with this analysis, please respond by testifying to us how what is missing in the Bible of your preference (NIV, NASV, etc) has improved your walk with Christ, and your relationship with the Holy Spirit in relation to our Brothers & Sisters in Christ who lived in 1800's, before the newer versions were created (before 1881).[/b]

Thank you,

Walter

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sermonindex

In my NIV, it sometimes leaves out entire verses, but has footnotes that the particular scripture has been omitted at the bottom of the page. I have seen this for sometime. I don't know why this is. This has been discussed in great length before on many SI threads. Many threads have discussed the best version. See " The KJV that the version for me" and others. To be safe we need to read the passages in several different versions. I personally prefer the KJV but I read passages in others versions as I study, also. Actually when I read the KJV,NIV, ASV,TLB, I don't see enough difference to change what God says in any of them and especially enough change to mislead anyone and prevent conviction of sin or the only way to be saved. If we read the ten commandments and we are really honest with ourselves, we know we are sinners and without hope apart from our Blessed Hope. We know we could never be made right in regards to the law. Do we then throw it away, after we Jesus saves us, no, God Forbid, but rather we uphold it. However obedience to the law does not save us and it can't keep us saved either. Only Jesus and HIS grace and mercy. I believe the world's main problem is not in having an incorrect written doctrine or not in knowing or not knowing what it says, but in doing it. Thanks for your references and concern.
God Bless

S
sermonindex

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it. There are vast differences in Bible Doctrine in the book of [b]Romans[/b], that surely has to affect the walk of those that do not read and study the Authorized (King James) Version.


[b]ROMANS[/b]

1:16 "of Christ" is omitted. [b]The gospel message is of Christ and centers around his Person and Work. This is an inexcusable attempt to leave Christ out of the good news of salvation. [/b]

3:22 "and upon all" is dropped. [b]The doctrine of imputed righteousness is most blessed to the believer.[/b] We are clothed in his righteousness and God sees us in Him, therefore it is "upon us."

8:1[b] "Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is dropped.[/b] To the truth that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, the Word adds the truth that they are characterized by a walk in the Spirit. It is a Bible doctrine that those who are saved are characterized by a changed life.

11:6[b] "But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" is dropped.[/b] The first part of the verse shows that grace rules out works. The second part of the verse shows that works rules out grace. It is intended for those who want to intrude works into the established state of grace for good measure (or safekeeping in salvation). This is a very important doctrinal passage in its' entirety.

13:9[b] "thou shalt not bear false witness" is dropped.[/b] Those who wrote the corrupt manuscripts had no trouble with the other commandments shown here. It is obvious that a smiting conscience would not permit them to include this commandment since it directly involved what they were engaged in, bearing false witness about God's Word.

14:9 [b]"and rose" is left out.[/b] Many heretics are willing to say that he died and that he lives again, but that he rose (bodily out from among the dead) they reject outright. The bodily resurrection of Christ is a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith.

We have all met Christians of today, who think nothing of not telling the truth and are guilty of "bearing a false witness". Other Christians of today have no understanding whatsoever of imputed righteousness. Why, because the very definition of it has been erased (or deleted, or omitted) from the newer versions (such as the NIV, NASB, and all the "newest" translations -the Message, etc).

Also, today, we find that many Christians are focused on works. If they studied their newer version of the Book of Romans, they would not see the [b]true Biblical doctrine[/b][b][color=CC0000] that Grace rules out works and works rule out grace(Romans 11:6).[/color][/b]

In Second Timothy 2:15 we are told:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[b]If we do not have the right Bible in our hands, how will be able to accomplish the task of[/b][b][color=CC0000] rightly dividing the Word of Truth[/color][/b] [b]when we are missing the truth from the Bible we are reading?[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


moe_mac wrote:
In my NIV, it sometimes leaves out entire verses, but has footnotes that the particular scripture has been omitted at the bottom of the page. I have seen this for sometime. I don't know why this is. This has been discussed in great length before on many SI threads. Many threads have discussed the best version. See " The KJV that the version for me" and others. To be safe we need to read the passages in several different versions. I personally prefer the KJV but I read passages in others versions as I study, also. Actually when I read the KJV,NIV, ASV,TLB, I don't see enough difference to change what God says in any of them and especially enough change to mislead anyone and prevent conviction of sin or the only way to be saved. If we read the ten commandments and we are really honest with ourselves, we know we are sinners and without hope apart from our Blessed Hope. We know we could never be made right in regards to the law. Do we then throw it away, after we Jesus saves us, no, God Forbid, but rather we uphold it. However obedience to the law does not save us and it can't keep us saved either. Only Jesus and HIS grace and mercy. I believe the world's main problem is not in having an incorrect written doctrine or not in knowing or not knowing what it says, but in doing it. Thanks for your references and concern.
God Bless

S
sermonindex

How have the newer versions distorted the Doctrine of 1st Corinthians? Are we really aware that the Doctrine (teaching) found in the Authorized Version is missing in the newer versions?

Let’s look at 1st Corinthians and see what has happened to God’s teaching, as found in the Authorized Version (through the power of His Holy Spirit) and what we are left with in the newer versions because of the mistakes of men (Textural Critics) who decided to "update" the Authorized Version:

1 CORINTHIANS
2:4[b] "man's wisdom" is changed to "wisdom." [/b][b][color=990000]Paul did not reject wisdom in his teaching, he rejected MAN'S wisdom. [/color][/b]

3:4 [b]"are ye not carnal?" is changed to "are ye not men?"[/b] [b][color=990000]It should be obvious that they were men, but the Bible truth to be taught was that in their divisions they were being controlled by fleshly (carnal) desires and not spiritual desires.[/color][/b]

5:7 [b]"for us" is omitted. This affects the vital doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.[/b] [b][color=990000]If Christ did not die for our sins then we are still under the wrath of God and without hope. [/color][/b]

5:12 [b] little word "also" is dropped. That word indicated that Paul did judge those who were within the church. Those who were outside the church were for God to judge. [/b][b][color=990000]The responsibility for believers to carry out discipline within the church is a Bible doctrine.[/color][/b]

6:4[b] "set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church" is changed to "do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?" [/b][b][color=990000]The Word of God teaches that it is better to suffer wrong than to go to court against another Christian before a lost world. It is better to leave the judgment of the matter to the least Christian than to the greatest worldly judge. The change here completely turns around the way of God and seems to rebuke the church for leaving the matter in the hands of the least Christians.[/color][/b]

6:20[b] "and in your spirit which are God's" is omitted. The body gives us world consciousness and the spirit gives us God consciousness.[/b] [b][color=990000]We are to glorify God in our body by holy living and in our spirit by walking in fellowship with God. Verses 16 and 17 talk about both.[/color][/b]

10:9[b] "Christ" is changed to "Lord."[/b] [b][color=990000] In the Old Testament they tempted Christ and that rock that followed them was Christ (see verse 4). The word Lord can be used of the Father and the Son. Changing to that word here eliminates the pre-existence of Christ. [/color][/b]

11:24[b] "take eat" is omitted along with "is broken." [/b][b][color=990000]The symbolic bread was broken and given to the disciples with instruction to eat it. It typified his flesh which "is being broken for you" (literal Greek). Though not a bone of him was broken it is true that his flesh was broken in many places before he died on our behalf. [/color][/b]

11:29 [b]"unworthily" is dropped. The word gives the picture of a believer treating the Lord's Supper as a common meal, not reverencing the symbolic meaning and spiritual impact it is intended to make upon his soul and spirit. To remove this word is a very great doctrinal error.[/b][b][color=990000] When you consider that sickness and death was the result of such unworthy participation, it is no light matter. [/color][/b]

11:29 [b]"not discerning the Lord's body" is changed to "if he does not judge the body rightly" (NASV).[/b] [b][color=990000]When we partake of the Lord's Supper we are to see through the elements to the Lord's body. As you think of the cost of your redemption there ought to be more holy living. The change brings absolute confusion concerning what body is meant, the Lord's or the believers. It is hallowed ground and the corrupters of God's Word have dared to tread upon it. [/color][/b]

15:47[b] "the Lord" is left out. God is contrasting Adam and Christ.[/b] [b][color=990000]To say that the second man is from heaven is not enough. There have been men from heaven who were angels. Here the man from heaven is the Lord. This is an attempt to do away with the Deity of Christ. [/color][/b]

15:49[b] "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" is changed to "we should bear the image of the heavenly."[/b] [b][color=990000]The first is a fact based upon the certainty of our eternal salvation in Christ. The second is an exhortation based upon the uncertainty of a salvation by works. The first is sound doctrine, the second is unsound doctrine.[/color][/b]


16:22 [b]"Jesus Christ" is omitted.[/b][b][color=990000] In a phrase with such import as to be accursed it is unthinkable that the test should center around the general term "Lord." The curse of God is upon those who do not love the Lord Jesus Christ. When his person and work is refused there is nothing to look for but wrath.[/color][/b]

[b][color=0033FF]Dear Brothers and Sisters---Can it be determined, by what has been posted so far (Acts, Romans & 1st Corinthians) that the newer versions are responsible for the dumbing down of the body of Christ in our own generation, before our very eyes? [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

S
sermonindex

Our on-going analysis

Sound Christian Doctrine has been greatly affected by the changes to the Authorized Version of the Bible. The MINORITY Text is the source of these changes and the New Modern Versions usually follow that Text. It is unthinkable that men and women of God would continue to advocate the use of these versions when they are in complete possession of all the facts. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to guide us into "all truth." May he be allowed to have his way in our hearts.

One of the main issues confronting the Chruch today is "sound doctrine". It should be quite clear, [b]after looking at the following comparison of only two Books in the New Testament, the Book of 2nd Corinthians and the Book of Galatians, that the problem has been created by the modern versions themselves:[/b]

[b]2 CORINTHIANS [/b]
4:4[b] "unto them" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000]The devil does not have power to keep the light of the gospel of Christ from shining, but he does have power to blind men lest it shine "unto them." [/color][/b]

5:17[b] "all things" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000]The believer is brought into vital union with Christ so that it is declared that he is in Christ. In the sight of God "old things" of the sinful nature are passed away. It only remains for those old things to be unwound, like Lazarus' graveclothes, in his daily life. In the sight of God "all things" are become new though they make their appearance in the life of the believer as he grows in grace and knowledge. To deny that "all things" are become new is to deny the finished work of Christ whereby we are made accepted in the beloved. [/color][/b]

12:11 [b]"in glorying" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000]The Corinthians had compelled Paul to talk about his experiences with the Lord. He did not want to brag about his spirituality. He felt that he had become foolish in boasting or glorying. The change would have Paul saying, "I have made a fool of myself." That is not what we are to understand. [/color][/b]

[b]GALATIANS[/b]

3:1[b] "that ye should not obey the truth" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000]The Galatians had been bewitched by the Jewish legalizers who had put them under the Law to keep saved. Paul tells them that in so doing they were not obeying the truth. The truth was that they were saved by grace and that all spiritual blessings were theirs in Christ. To turn from that is to be in error. [/color][/b].

3:17 [b]"in Christ" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000]Paul is talking about the covenant with Abraham through his seed which was Christ. The law was added later and did not affect the covenant of promise to those who would be saved by believing as Abraham did. God promised Abraham that through his seed (singular) all the families of the earth would be blessed. That was a covenant confirmed before of God "in Christ." . [/color][/b]

4:7 [b] "an heir of God through Christ" is changed to "an heir through God."[/b] [b][color=990000]The inheritance is to the children of God through the mediatorship of Christ. We are not heirs of God through God, but through Christ. The change here is intended to destroy the reliance upon the Lord Jesus Christ who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." . [/color][/b]

[b]Is it any wonder that we see all of the contention, on this wonderful website of Sermonindex, as well as other Christian websites, in regards to Bible Doctrine.[/b]
[i][b][color=339900] One example that comes to mind is judgement. Some believers think that Christians should not judge anyone, even if they are believers. Yet, the Bible (the Authorized Version -KJV) states that we are to judge our Christian brothers and sisters, and not to judge the lost. see prior post- referring to 1 Cor 5:12:

5:12 little word "also" is dropped in the newer versions. That word indicated that Paul did judge those who were within the church. Those who were outside the church were for God to judge. The responsibility for believers to carry out discipline within the church is a Bible doctrine.[/color][/b][/i]


Sincerely,

Walter

C
crsschk

b]Is it any wonder that we see all of the contention, on this wonderful website of Sermonindex, as well as other Christian websites, in regards to Bible Doctrine. One example that comes to mind is judgement. Some believers think that Christians should not judge anyone, even if they are believers. Yet, the Bible (the Authorized Version -KJV) states that we are to judge our Christian brothers and sisters, and not to judge the lost.

I do not know that the reason for this has to do with Bible versions frankly, in fact just the opposite has proven true. That even in the discussion of different Bible versions there has been a great deal of contention, strife and ill-will. Something else is at the root of the matter and any version has the capacity of conveying what and why this is.

The claims you present are not completely without warrant but as was mentioned, there has been many, many postings on this in the past and not much of it has done anything but bring contention. Search it out for yourself, the subject has been beaten to death here and much ruin the result. The greatest problem is in suspicion and intent and a whole conspiracy mindedness that is largely impossible to prove one way or the other.

There is just no end to this and even your out takes are laced with innuendo and insinuation. They are contentious themselves. There are errors in translation in every version including the KJV and again this has been discussed ad nauseam. Some are far better than others and even our SI disclaimer makes a mention that 'we' are predominantly "KJV preferred" but not "only".

You might want to avail yourself of the past discussions before going on any further.

S
sermonindex

Amen, you got it waltern. I have no less than, a half a dozen post, gave scripture and references about church discipline and that the church should judge the brethren, not as to condemnation but in hopes of restoration. Such posts as Judging 101, The definition of Judging. Yet we see over and over again the quote. "It is not our place to Judge and say this person is in sin. Right on we are not in reference to eternal consequences, we can't. However we need to learn what a judge actually does.

Links on Judging

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23006&forum=35

Before one can answer this question of what judging is, they must first ask themselves, exactly does a judge do. Judging in many instances, is a phrase coined in today's world, in an attempt to prevent someone from calling sin sin, when this is actually not judging. One has not judged another until they has not only found another guilty, which we all are, but has given them a punishment and then carried it out. That is WHAT judging is. The truth is, if we all were judged for our righteousness, apart from Christ would face death. But Christ in us will urge others to flee to Jesus which will point us back to the law and from sin and sometimes point sin out in us and others, even though we are guilty of sin and deserve death ourselves. GRACE

James 2:10-11
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
(from New International Version)

2 Cor 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

Jesus is only judge and has been given all authority to carry out punishment, which is actually what judging is. One day Jesus will judge the secrets of mens hearts. He knows all. I am glad and very thankful, since HE knows all about my life, he forgives sins, because if my life were put on video, I could bare to watch it, let alone knowing someone else was seeing it.
Thank you Jesus!!!

To judge is an action or to pass or give judgement. a punishment. Such as when the women caught in the act of adultery by the Pharisees and Jesus told the Pharisees that was about to actually stone her to death, he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. Now he did not say: let him speak or not speak the first word. The only one person present at that scene or any scene, who could have actually throne that stone was Jesus. He did not throw the stone which was what he meant when he said that was, neither do I judge you, he did no throw the stones but told her to go and sin no more. He did come to the world to comdemn it, but HE came to seek and save that which is lost. This verse about the pharisees and the woman caught in act of adultery of often used by many to rebuke someone from speaking out against sin.

H
HomeFree89

Walter,

Here is a link to a website that has helped me a lot with this issue. I used to be KJV-only, but now I'm not after studying closely what both sides had to say. It's actually been a big help using modern translations (like the ESV, NAS, and NKJV).

[url=http://www.kjvonly.org/]KJV-Onlyism[/url]

Jordan

S
sermonindex

What is the purpose of this post "What does yours say?" My purpose has been to show that there is a great deal of difference between the Majority text, and the Minority text, between the King James Version, and all of the newer versions created since 1881. The text used for the [b]Protestant Bible,[/b] at the time of the reformation, was the Majority text. The finest version of the Majority Text is the 1611 King James Bible. On the other hand, at the same time of the reformation, the[b] Catholic Bible existed. And the text used to create the Catholic Bible is and was the Minority text.[/b]

It would seem to me, based upon the substantial differences in the texts posted so far, that these dramatic differences would encourage all believers to get a copy of the King James, and refer to it for study and confirmation of Doctrine. Keep all of your other versions (I have most of them), and compare them, but be confident in relying on the King James Version.

Now, for the continuation of the analysis of the differences between the texts and the meanings of those differences in regards to Doctrine. Get your own "favorite" version out and compare them as we go:

[b]EPHESIANS[/b]
1:1[b] "at Ephesus" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] It is hard to conceive that the Spirit of God addressed an epistle and then lost the address. [/color][/b]

3:9 [b]"by Jesus Christ" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] It is a Bible doctrine that all things were created by Jesus Christ and without him was not anything made that was made. This change detracts from the Deity of Christ which is made evident by the fact that ALL THINGS were created by Him. [/color][/b]

5:30 [b]"of his flesh, and of his bones" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Bible teaching is that the believer is vitally conjoined to Christ for a new life and walk in the Spirit. We are "quickened together with Christ," "raised up together," and "seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." God likens this to the marriage relationship where two people become one flesh. [/color][/b]

6:10 [b]"my brethren" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] These words make it very clear that Paul's instructions concerning Christian living are for Christians who by the new birth have become Paul's "brethren." There is a great danger that unsaved people might get the impression that by imitating the things that Christians do they can become Christians. [/color][/b]

[b]PHILIPPIANS [/b]
4:13 [b]"Christ" is changed to "him." [/b] [b][color=990000]It is precious to the believer to know that Christ will give him strength for spiritual living. Christ himself said, "without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). The word "him" is quite indefinite and can be misconstrued by Modernists to include the "him" of any religious group believing in a Supreme Being. [/color][/b]

[b]COLOSSIANS[/b]
1:2 [b]"and the Lord Jesus Christ" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] Along with the Father he is the source of grace and peace. [/color][/b]

1:14 [b]"through his blood" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] Redemption and forgiveness of sins is through the direct agency of his shed blood. Many Modernists today can work around the words "redemption" and "forgiveness of sins," but they cannot work around the shed blood. Therefore they must deny it and be in direct opposition to it. [/color][/b]

2:11[b] "of the sins" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] What is left to work with brings the NIV to translate "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature." It is an established Bible doctrine that by the circumcision of our heart which the Lord made, we are able to overcome the sins of our flesh. But the putting off of our sinful nature will not take place until we are changed in the Rapture. Errors like this can only occur as the group of translators persist in following the MINORITY Text. [/color][/b]

2:18[b] "those things which he has not seen" is made to read "those things which he has seen."[/b] [b][color=990000] Men were vainly attempting to worship angels as emanations from God in a step-ladder effort to reach God. Paul exhorted them to hold fast to the Head (our God-man Christ Jesus) who proceeded forth and came from God (himself being of the Trinity) that he might bring us to God. Paul says they DID NOT see them, heretics say THEY HAVE. [/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

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Now, for the continuation of the analysis of the differences between the different Bible versions. There are only two texts to compare. There are only two texts that have been used to create all of the Bibles that we see before us today. We have the Majority text, that created the Protestant Bible, and the Minority text, that was used to create the Catholic Bible. The minority text that was used to create the Catholic Bible is also the text that has been used to create all of the newer versions, starting in 1881.

[b]Grab your "favorite" version and compare them as we go. Is there a difference? You be the one to decide:[/b]

[b]1 THESSALONIANS[/b]

1:1 [b]"from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] Are we to think that grace and peace is bestowed by Paul? No, that is not within his power. They have their source in the Father and the Son. [/color][/b]

5:27 [b]"holy" is dropped from before "brethren." [/b] [b][color=990000]Paul had other brethren according to the flesh who were not saved (Rom. 9:1-3; 10:1). These were sanctified and preserved brethren and they were "holy" because they were accepted in the beloved. [/color][/b]

[b]1 TIMOTHY [/b]

3:3 [b]"not greedy of filthy lucre" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] The phrase has to do with obtaining earthly gain through disgraceful means. This happens everyday within professing Christendom. It is inspired of God and belongs in the text. [/color][/b]

3:16[b] "God was manifest" is changed to "He was manifest." [/b] [b][color=990000]The reference is to Christ manifest in the flesh, etc. The MAJORITY Text tells us that this Christ was God. There are 252 copies of Paul's Epistles which have "God" and only 2 copies which have "he." The MINORITY Text leaves us in doubt as to who "he" is. The doctrine of the Deity of Christ is greatly harmed here by the corrupt text. [/color][/b]

4:12[b] "in spirit" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] To be an example of the believer it is necessary to have a spiritual man guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit. [/color][/b]

5:16[b]"if any man" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] It is unthinkable that the head of the house should be removed here from the responsibility to provide for widows. [/color][/b]

6:5[b]"from such withdraw thyself" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Bible doctrine of separation is affected by this corruption. We are to withdraw from teachers who are destitute of the truth. [/color][/b]

6:19 [b]"eternal life" is changed to "that which is truly life."[/b] [b][color=990000] The first talks about the length of life, the second talks about the quality of life. You cannot have the first without being saved. You can have the second but still be lost, depending on what you think is "truly life." [/color][/b]

[b]2 TIMOTHY[/b]

1:11 [b]"of the Gentiles" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] That Paul was appointed to teach the gospel to the Gentiles is indisputable (see Gal. 2:7-9). [/color][/b]

[b]HEBREWS[/b]

1:3[b] "When he had by himself purged our sins" is changed to "when he had made purification of sins."[/b] [b][color=990000] The omission of the word "our" leaves us to wonder whose sins were purged, his own or others. It is not plain and therefore the substitutionary atonement of Christ is affected by the change. With the words "by himself" the Holy Spirit wanted us to see that the atonement for our sins was accomplished by Christ alone. The damage to this verse is awesome in its' consequences. [/color][/b]

3:1 [b]"Christ" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] Our High Priest must be anointed of God to that office and the word Christ means the Messiah or Anointed one of God. [/color][/b]

10:34[b] "in heaven" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] Those who had lost all their earthly goods certainly had no enduring substance here, but in heaven was their treasure and reward. [/color][/b]

[b]JAMES [/b]

2:20 [b]"faith without works is dead" has been changed to "faith without works is useless."[/b] [b][color=990000] There is a great difference between dead faith and useless (or idle) faith. The first indicates that no faith exists and the person is lost. The second implies that faith exists but it is not being used. Again we see humanism and the false idea of a little divinity in each one which only needs to be fanned into a flame. The change promotes false doctrine. [/color][/b]

4:4 [b]"ye adulterers" is dropped from the text.[/b] [b][color=990000] No reason to excuse the men from the scathing denunciation of God's Word. [/color][/b]

4:14 [b]"It is even a vapour" is changed to "Ye are just a vapour."[/b] [b][color=990000] In describing the length of our life, God tells us it will pass quickly like a vapour. The change would have US OURSELVES to exist as a little steam. There is a leaning here toward annihilationism. [/color][/b]

5:16 [b]"Confess your faults" becomes "confess your sins." [/b] [b][color=990000]In a context where God talks about sin in relationship to sickness, he moves on to talk about faults (a side-slip or deviation). The change "faults" to "sins" leads to the priesthood and the confession box which is contrary to all of Scripture. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

S
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This is the final comparison between the two basic texts that make up the New Testament in our Bible of today.

There are two texts 1)-the Majority text, that inspired the Protestant reformation and the building of the Christian Church, as we knew it before 1900. 2) The Minority text, that inspired the Catholic Church, and is still in use to this day. The Minority text is also behind all of the newer versions of the Protestant Bible, that have been produced since 1881.

[b]Grab your "favorite" version and let’s continue.Is there really a difference? You be the one to decide:[/b]

[b]1 PETER [/b]

1:22[b] "through the Spirit" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Bible teaches that it is through the agency of the Holy Spirit that men are brought to believe in Christ. In John 16:8,9 he convicts the world (all men) and draws them to faith in Christ. [/color][/b]

1:23 [b]"for ever" is dropped and thereby the preservation of the Word of God is called into question.[/b] [b][color=990000] The agency here of the new birth is the Word of God, which is eternal. Our new birth therefore is as eternal as the Word which originated it. [/color][/b]

2:2[b]The phrase "unto salvation" is added by Westcott and Hort (1881) to "that ye may grow thereby." [/b] [b][color=990000]This puts a question mark over the certainty of our present salvation. It makes salvation a process rather than an accomplished fact. The doctrine of eternal security is denied by the new exhortation to grow UNTO SALVATION. [/color][/b]

3:18 [b]"suffered for sins" is changed to "died for sins." [/b] [b][color=990000]The context has Christians suffering for well doing and they are exhorted to keep on because Christ also has suffered for us. It is a Bible teaching that Christ not only died for our sins, but that he suffered for our sins (see Isaiah 53:5-7). [/color][/b]

3:18 [b] The correct rendering attributes the resurrection of Christ to the Holy Spirit.[/b] [b][color=990000]This completes the truth that all three persons of the Trinity were involved in the resurrection of Christ (see John 2:19; Rom. 8:11). [/color][/b]

4:1 [b]"for us" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] Christ suffered for us, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God.[/color][/b]

5:2 [b] "taking the oversight thereof" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000]To watch over the flock of God with authority is a clear teaching of the Word. [/color][/b]

5:12[b] "wherein ye stand" is changed to "wherein stand."[/b] [b][color=990000] By the removal of the word "ye" there is a change from our standing in grace to an exhortation to stay there standing. The blessing of a perfected standing in grace is thereby removed. [/color][/b]

[b]2 PETER[/b]
2:17 [b]The words "for ever" are dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000]Peter, in the word concerning false teachers, states that their darkness is to last forever. The change leaves us with no definite word as to their end. [/color][/b]

2:18 [b]"those that were clean escaped" is changed to "those that are scarcely escaping." [/b] [b][color=990000]The change from past tense to present tense moves us from a completed salvation to a hope-so salvation. Those who are saved are in possession of eternal life (see John 5:24). [/color][/b]

2:20 [b]"the Lord and Saviour" becomes "our Lord and Saviour." [/b] [b][color=990000]The false teachers had escaped some of the world's worst sins by following the teachings of "the Lord" but they had never come to know him as "our Lord" is known to real Christians. They were not saved and then lost, but never saved at all. [/color][/b]

3:2[b] "us the apostles" is changed to "your apostles." [/b] [b][color=990000]The Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20) and there are no apostles and prophets today nor is there any such thing as an apostolic succession. The phrase "your apostles" indicates that the people he was writing to had special apostles designated for them and lends support to the continuance of a so-called "Apostolic Succession." [/color][/b]

[b]1 JOHN [/b]

1:7 [b]"Christ" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000]This word brings the cleansing blood into relationship with our great anointed High Priest who ever liveth to make intercession for us. Many cults believe that Jesus (as man) died for the original sin of Adam and that Christ (as a spirit) rose without the body. John would have us know that the one who died and the one who arose are the same. [/color][/b]

3:5 [b] "our" is removed from before "sins." [/b] [b][color=990000]Once again the question of whose sins were taken away is raised. There have been sins committed by angels and men. The "our sins" refers the atonement to those of men. (see my comments under Hebrews 1;3). [/color][/b]

3:14 [b]"his brother" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] The teaching of the Word is that a true Christian will love his brother in Christ. If a man does not love a true Christian, then it is evident that he is still lost and abides in death. The test of spiritual life is not that we love, but that we love the brethren (see John 13:34,35). [/color][/b]

4:19[b] "We love him" is changed to "We love."[/b] [b][color=990000] The object of God's love is us, and the object of our love is him. Christians are not just people who love, but people who love God because of his grace. The very next verse deals with the professor who says he loves God but is a liar. Lost people may love, but saved people love God. [/color][/b]

5:7 [b][color=990000]The whole verse bearing testimony to the Triune God is discarded. There are at least 20 Greek manuscripts which have this verse in. It is also seen in the writings of the church fathers and lectionaries. It directly affects the Bible doctrine of the Trinity. [/color][/b]

[b]REVELATION[/b]
5:10[b] "kings and priests" is changed to "a kingdom of priests." [/b] [b][color=990000]The 24 elders are representative of all the redeemed who in Christ are constituted kings and priests. A kingdom of priests smells of Nicolaitanism (the rule of the clergy over the laity) and the priesthood for a select few as in the Roman Catholic Church. (The same change is seen in 1:6) [/color][/b]

8:13[b] "an angel" is changed to "an eagle." [/b] [b][color=990000]This is most amusing and shows how captive the Revisers are to their corrupt text. In a setting replete with angels we are told about a talking eagle who pronounces three more "Woes" to the inhabiters of the earth. [/color][/b]

14:5[b]"before the throne of God" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000]This phrase speaks of the perfect standing that the saved have in Christ. They are without fault before God because they are, like the church, "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6). [/color][/b]

20:9 [b]"from God" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] At the end of the Kingdom Age the enemies of God are destroyed by fire "from God out of heaven." God is the one who will destroy all enemies and create a new heaven and a new earth. [/color][/b]

20:12 [b]"before God" is changed to "before the throne."[/b] [b][color=990000] The dead will be raised, not to stand before an impersonal throne, but to stand before "the God" [literal]. Many would like to change the personal God into some kind of Divine Mind or Supreme Being. [/color][/b]

[i][b][color=0000FF]Have you been able to see the difference between the two types of text- the Majority text and the Minority text? I pray that this comparision has opened eyes and hearts.
[/color][/b]
[/i]

Sincerely,

Walter

S
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[b]The Gospels are also affected by the Minority text.

Please compare the following to the Bible of your choice, and decide. Are you using the Minority or the Majority text? What text (Majority as presented by the King James or the Minority as presented by the Catholic Bible and all of the newer Protestant Bible versions created since 1881-NIV, NASB, ETC.) provides the best understanding about Bible Doctrine?[/b]

[b]MATTHEW [/b]

[b]1:25 "her firstborn" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000]That Jesus was her firstborn indicates that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after the birth of Jesus and that others were born of her. The omission here seeks to add credence to the false doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Bible is clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters. [/color][/b]

[b]5:22 "without a cause" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000]In the Sermon on the Mount the Lord warned of judgment for those who were angry with a brother without a cause. Should this change be accepted everyone who is angry with his brother may be judged. The effect is to bring Jesus into judgment for failing to observe his own words (see Mark 3:5). Such is contrary to the doctrine of the sinlessness of Christ. [/color][/b]

[b]6:4, 6, 18 "openly" is out.[/b] [b][color=990000]It is a Bible Doctrine that Christian work done unnoticed for the glory of the Lord will one day be rewarded openly (Col. 3:4). [/color][/b]

[b]6:13 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever, Amen" is deleted. [/b][b][color=990000]This ascription of praise to "Our Father" is found in 491 out of 500 existing manuscripts. This statement was made a century ago by Dean John Burgon.
[/color][/b]

[b]8:29 "Jesus" is left out.[/b] The demons bore witness to the fact that Jesus was the Son of God.[b][color=990000] It was an identification of Jesus (in humanity) as the Son of God (in Deity). It affects the doctrine of the Person of Christ. [/color][/b]

[b]9:8 "marvelled" is changed to "were afraid." [/b] [b][color=990000]There is no reason to believe that the people were afraid because Jesus healed the sick of the palsy. There is every reason for them to marvel at the miracle.[/color][/b]

[b]9:13 "to repentance" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Bible doctrine of repentance is one that men would like to do away with. God requires that in order to be saved one must truly repent (Acts 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9). The word means "a change of mind" and there must be that concerning God, sin and salvation. Men think that sin does not really separate them from God--they must change their mind about that. Men think that salvation is by works--they must change their mind about that. There is nothing more evident today than the absence of repentance among those who are professing to be converted. [/color][/b]

[b]15:8 "draweth nigh unto me with their mouth" is left out. According to Isaiah 29:13 it belongs in because Isaiah prophesied of these hypocrites exactly that way.[/b]

[b]16:2,3 "When it is evening ... the signs of the times" is all omitted.[/b][b][color=990000] The Pharisees and Sadducees came looking for a sign and the signs were all around them. Jesus called them hypocrites because they could not tell the signs of the times. [/color][/b]

[b]17:21 Whole verse is left out. Power with God is to be had by prayer and fasting. That is a fundamental truth of the Word of God. [/b]

[b]18:2 "Jesus" is left out.[/b] This is done many times by the corrupt Greek Text of Westcott and Hort. I have not chosen to remark about each instance because it would add many pages to this work. The MAJORITY Text continuously places the word "Jesus" in the narrative with the definite article preceding it. Thus it places him in the center of things and in command.[b][color=990000] It is doctrinally unsound for such prominence to be discarded for the word "he." [/color][/b]

[b]18:11 The whole verse is omitted. This verse tells us that man is lost, that he needs to be saved, and that the Son of man is the one who can do that. The doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ is affected by this change.[/b]

[b]18:15 "against thee" is omitted. [/b][b][color=990000]This omission sets us up as watchdogs over others and if one sins we are to go and tell him. Such is not the teaching of Scripture. Were we to declare every sin we would be constantly busy (bodies) judging the actions and motives of everyone. This change is a very bad error. [/color][/b]

[b]18:35 "their trespasses" is omitted. Same thought as mentioned in 18:15.[/b]

[b]19:9 "and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] This is a very important doctrinal change which concerns divorce and remarriage. A man who divorces his wife and remarries commits adultery, and also the man who marries the divorced wife commits adultery.[/color][/b]

[b]19:16,17 "Good" before Master is omitted. In addition to that, the phrase "Why callest thou me good?" is changed to "Why askest thou me concerning the good?"[/b][b][color=990000] Good Master is correct and Jesus responded to show the young man that only one was good and that one was God. The conclusion should have been obvious. Since Jesus was good he was necessarily God. The omission and change destroys the intended testimony to the Deity of Christ. [/color][/b]

[b]20:16 "for many be called, but few chosen" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Lord would have us know that many are called to inherit eternal life, but few are chosen by virtue of believing in Christ. It is a Bible doctrine that God wants all men to be saved but few will come to Christ for salvation.[/color][/b]

[b]21:12 "of God" is out.[/b] [b][color=990000] Jesus, who was God in the flesh, came to his own temple and said, "My house shall be called the house of prayer." It was the temple of God and the God of the temple was there. [/color][/b]

[b]22:30 "of God" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] There are good angels and fallen angels. The believers, in the resurrection, will be like the good angels "of God" who alone are in heaven.[/color][/b]

[b]23:8 "Master" is changed to "teacher." [/b][b][color=990000]There are many teachers but only one master. The change here takes away the pre- eminence that God intends for his Son.[/color][/b]

[b]25:13 "wherein the Son of man cometh" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] The warning to watch is tied to the imminent return of the Lord. The omission here does away with the doctrine of the Lord's second advent. [/color][/b]

[b]26:28 "new" is dropped before testament.[/b] [b][color=990000] The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus said, "this cup is the NEW testament in my blood." The change here is intended to corrupt the Word of God and to confuse Christians. [/color][/b]

[b]27:35 "that it might be fulfilled ... did they cast lots" is all omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] It is very important in Matthew's gospel, where Jesus is portrayed as the King of Israel, to show that he is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. Here the parting of his garments and casting lots is the fulfillment of Psalm 22:18 which portrays the crucifixion of Christ. To omit this is to show the intended corruption of the Word of God by the textual critics.[/color][/b]

[b]28:6 "the Lord" is omitted.[/b][b][color=990000] The very reverent angels said, "see the place where the Lord lay." They would not say, "see the place where he lay." The constant attempt to humanize Jesus and take away from his Deity does not endear the Westcott and Hort Greek Text to believers[/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

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[b][color=990000]Their are two basic texts that make up our Bibles of today:

There is a great deal of difference between these two texts-- Majority text, and the Minority text, between the King James Version (Majority text), and the Catholic Bible (Douay-Rheims & New Jerusalem-the Minority text) and all of the newer versions of the Protestant Bible created since 1881. The Majority Text inspired the Protestant Bible, that inspired the Protestant Reformation and the building of the Christian Church, as we knew it before 1900. The finest version of the Majority Text is the 1611 King James Bible. The Minority Text, that inspired the Catholic Church, and is the text used to create the Catholic Bible (Douay-Rheims & New Jerusalem) is also the text used to create all of the newer versions of the Protestant Bible, that have been produced since 1881. [/color][/b]


[b]Grab your "favorite" version (NIV, NASV, Etc.) and let’s continue our comparison through the Gospels. Is there really a difference? You be the one to decide:[/b]


[b]MARK [/b]

[b]1:1 "the Son of God" is left out. [/b][b][color=990000]These words present Jesus Christ as Deity. Such an omission is a direct attack on the person of Christ and is without doubt a doctrinal error. [/color][/b]

[b]1:31 "immediately" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] The descriptive word tells us when the fever left her and therefore provides us with a miracle. The word left out denies the miracle and thus the one who performed it. [/color][/b]

[b]2:17 "to repentance" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000] See comments on Matt. 9:13. (previous posting) [/color][/b]

[b]3:15 "to heal sicknesses" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] Jesus gave them authority to heal diseases as well as to cast out demons. Sickness is the result of sin (Adam's) and the only one who has authority to eliminate it is the one who would die for sin. On the basis of his approaching death for sin on Calvary he could say, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee" and "Rise up and walk." [/color][/b]

[b]4:24 "and unto you that hear shall more be given" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000] It is a Bible teaching (DOCTRINE) that those who seek truth from the Lord shall be given more truth (see John 7:17). [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000] 5:36 "as soon" is dropped. The word in the Greek is "immediately." The word "immediately" is constantly dropped by the Revisers of 1881. It is a key word in Mark which is the Gospel of the Servant of the Lord who came "not to be ministered unto, but to minister." When Jairus was told that his daughter was dead and that he should not trouble Jesus further, the Lord "immediately" encouraged him to believe. [/color][/b]

[b]6:11 "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city" is removed from the text.[/b] [b][color=990000] This passage emphasizes the great degree of responsibility that was upon those cities who heard the Lord's apostles as they preached repentance and worked miracles before them. Sodom and Gomorrah did not have such light, yet they are still suffering the eternal wrath of God (see Jude 7 where "suffering" is in the present tense). How much more the judgment of America today where people sit in an abundance of complete revelation from God and choose to remain in darkness. [/color][/b]

[b]7:8 "as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do" is omitted. [/b] [b][color=990000] The Lord not only condemns the Pharisees for traditions of men, but he names them. There are traditions of men today which are sending people to Hell and preachers need to name them. It is doctrinally unsound to let men go on in traditions and not expose them. [/color][/b]

[b]9:23 "if thou canst believe" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] The father had said to Jesus, "if thou canst do anything." To this lack of faith Jesus answered, "if thou canst believe." It was at once a rebuke and an encouragement to have faith in him. The father's answer in the next verse is beautiful but the Revisers ruined that also. They omitted "with tears, Lord" from the most precious answer as recorded by the Spirit of God. [/color][/b]

[b]9:45 "into the fire that never shall be quenched" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000] The character and duration of Hell is described here and the doctrine of eternal retribution is affected by this change. [/color][/b]

[b]9:47 "fire" is omitted. [/b] [b][color=990000] The words are inspired and in complete agreement with Rev. 20:15. The consignment of the lost to the lake of fire is a Bible doctrine. [/color][/b]

[b]10:21 "take up the cross" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000] The word to the young man was to divest himself of the riches in which he trusted, consider himself dead to the world, and follow Christ into eternal life. There are many who will let go of riches and seek to emulate some of Christ's teachings, but the way of the cross they refuse. The cross for Christ and for believers is Fundamental in Christian doctrine. [/color][/b]

[b]10:24 "for them that trust in riches" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] This is a very glaring doctrinal error. It is not hard to enter into the kingdom of God (salvation is a free gift through faith in Jesus Christ) but it is hard for those who trust in riches to trust Christ alone for salvation. Their God is their wealth and it is no more compatible with Christ than Dagon was with the Ark of God (see 1 Sam. 5:1-5). [/color][/b]

[b]11:26 The whole verse is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000] It is a Bible doctrine that if we regard iniquity in our heart the Lord will not hear us. Answered prayer and clean vessels go together. When I confess my sins and ask God for favor he requires that my confession of sin include forgiveness of those who have sinned against me. If I refuse to forgive others it becomes sin to me (see Eph. 4:32). [/color][/b]

[b]13:14 "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] Without the reference to Daniel the appeal to understand is without force. Though some might connect it in their thoughts because they are familiar with Scripture, it does not follow that he is referring to Daniel. The reference to Daniel by the Lord also authenticates his writing as inspired Scriptures. [/color][/b]

[b]14:22 "eat" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000] Our Lord did not give them a relic from the Last Supper to take home and cherish. He gave them broken bread to eat which (when observed) would always remind them of his body which was broken for them. [/color][/b]

[b]15:28 The whole verse is left out[/b]. [b][color=990000] Jesus was crucified between two thieves in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:12. It is doctrinal error to eliminate clear statements concerning the fulfilling of prophecy (see Luke 24:27). [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000] 16:9-20 Twelve verses are omitted. These verses are found in every known manuscript but two (the oldest of those two leaves a blank space where it belongs). They are found in all the Versions, quoted by the church fathers, and seen in the lectionaries of the church. There are many doctrines affected by the omission of these twelve verses. The resurrection of Christ is deleted. The great commission, baptism, eternal damnation and His ascension into Heaven are all taken out of the Word of God. Certainly the gospel does not end with "they were afraid." Some say the ending has been lost (see Dr. Ryrie's Study Bible) but that destroys the Bible Doctrine that God preserves His Word (see 1 Peter 1:23-25). The evidence is clear that these verses are original and to cut them out is to affect many doctrines of the Christian faith. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi waltern...


crsschk wrote:

The claims you present are not completely without warrant but as was mentioned, there has been many, many postings on this in the past and not much of it has done anything but bring contention. Search it out for yourself, the subject has been beaten to death here and much ruin the result. The greatest problem is in suspicion and intent and a whole conspiracy mindedness that is largely impossible to prove one way or the other.

There is just no end to this and even your out takes are laced with innuendo and insinuation. They are contentious themselves. There are errors in translation in every version including the KJV and again this has been discussed ad nauseam. Some are far better than others and even our SI disclaimer makes a mention that 'we' are predominantly "KJV preferred" but not "only".

You might want to avail yourself of the past discussions before going on any further.


I agree.

The differences between the version authorized by King James in 1611 (which changed over a period of 150+ years) and those "modern" versions are simply the result of understanding which sources were used for translation. Each passage may differ -- not as a willful choice of the translators, but because of the sources used in the translation process. The KJV was taken mostly from the Textus Receptus with great attention paid to prior texts (like The Bishop's Bible). The Textus Receptus (or Majority Text) was mostly translated by a single Catholic man named Desiderius Erasmus. His text became the standard text for the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Empire.

In their preface, the translators of the version authorized by King James admitted that the version was far from perfect. From my experience, this has been the major point of contention for those who want to view the KJV as the only "perfect and inspired" translation. Yet to claim that this one translation is perfect, we are relying upon the premise that the Textus Receptus (from a Catholic priest) was also a perfect divinely inspired translation.

Many of the modern versions favored an examination of all available ancient text sources. Once the translation of a single passage was agreed upon, the translators were quick to note any sort of variations from other major text sources (and often, why they decided upon such terminology). This was also done for the version authorized by King James; however, the printing did not reflect the variances in how each passage could be read.

In the end, this sort of debate has its place. Too often, however, individuals seem to focus on a later work (like the KJV or NIV) rather than the text sources from which they came. Yet people can become quite divisive about the subject. Some are even quite adament that a particular version (usually the KJV) is the "only acceptable version" in the sight of God. I often wonder about what evidence such a matter is based? Was real research spent investigating these things -- or did such individuals base their beliefs solely upon the works and (supposed) research of others?

I recommend that each individual truly investigate these matters. However, instead of going to the library and picking up a book about how "perfect" the KJV is or how "corrupt" another translation is, why don't we just do the research for ourselves? Why can't we simply investigate the claims made by those who loudly and publicly present their hypotheses?

As a disclaimer: I consider the KJV to be a very sound translation taken mostly from the Textus Receptus and the NIV to be a very sound translation taken from the other sources.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Walter's response:

Chris, your facts below are a little rusty. The Latin Vulgate Bible was the Bible of the Roman Cathoic Church, as well as the Bible of Constantines Rome. [b]This Bible (Latin Vulgate)relied upon the Minority Text, the text that the present Catholic Bibles rely on( Douay-Rheims and the New Jerusalem Bible).[/b]

[b]Of special note, everyone in the Western world was "Catholic" in the early 1500's. There were no other choices! Protestanism was in the future, thanks to Erasmus and Luther, and Stephanus, and others.[/b]

As far as Erasmus is concerned, he was indeed a Catholic in 1515 & 1516 when he was working on his own Greek Translation of the New Testament. In 1516 his Greek Translation was published by Froben of Basel.[b] This was the first published Greek New Testament that relied upon the Majority Text,[/b] the Novum Instrumentum omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Rot. Recognitum et Emendatum. This critical edition included a Latin translation and annotations, and would be called the Textus Receptus.

The year after Erasmus published his work (1516), Luther used the Textus Receptus (TR) for the basis of a German translation of the New Testament. [b] Shortly thereafter, God – using Luther and his translation, (Majority Text) brought about the Reformation.[/b]

[b][color=0000FF]Luther and Erasmus knew each other. They did not always agree. One of the chief areas of disagreement between them was Luther's conviction that the Roman church was incapable of being reformed and he thought that Erasmus should join him in leaving. However Erasmus believed that he could better bring about reform by working from within the system. He was quite wrong. That reform has never occurred to this day .[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter
:-)


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi waltern...

crsschk wrote:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The differences between the version authorized by King James in 1611 (which changed over a period of 150+ years) and those "modern" versions are simply the result of understanding which sources were used for translation. Each passage may differ -- not as a willful choice of the translators, but because of the sources used in the translation process. The KJV was taken mostly from the Textus Receptus with great attention paid to prior texts (like The Bishop's Bible). The Textus Receptus (or Majority Text) was mostly translated by a single Catholic man named Desiderius Erasmus. His text became the standard text for the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Empire.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
:-)

H
HomeFree89

Sorry, this is a really long article.

ERASMUS, HIS GREEK TEXT AND HIS THEOLOGY

By Doug Kutilek

Part One: Erasmus and His Greek New Testament

Desiderius Erasmus, (b. 1466?, d. July 12, 1536) was one of the most important men in Europe during one of the most important periods in all of European history, the time of the Protestant Reformation. Born in Rotterdam in the Netherlands, Erasmus grew up in a world dominated by Roman Catholicism. He himself took, under duress, monastic vows, and was a lifelong devoted son of the Roman Church. He was a friend and acquaintance of kings, emperors, and popes.

Erasmus had, even from childhood, a craving to read, study, learn, and know. He spent his life as a scholar and writer. He was a man of quick wit and a keen mind. In 1509 he turned his literary talents to the ridicule and denunciation of monastic vice, immorality, and wickedness in his book Encomium Moriae ("The Praise of Folly"). This provoked the ire of the priests and monks. He had struck a raw nerve. But it must be noted that while Erasmus found the wickedness of the priests repulsive, he did not disapprove of Roman Catholic doctrine. He wished only for a reformation of priestly morals and conduct, not of Roman theology, and he disapproved of the doctrinal revolution initiated by Luther. Though Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched, Erasmus disowned completely his offspring.

Other literary works proceeded from Erasmus' pen, among them critical editions and translations of classical authors and early church fathers. The latter included Jerome, Hilary, Irenaeus, Ambrose, Augustine, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, and Origen, who was Erasmus' favorite church father (Bainton, Erasmus of Christendom, p. 143), and of whom Erasmus once wrote, "I have also read a great part of Origen, who opens out new fountains of thought and furnishes a complete key to theology." (Froude, Life and Letters of Erasmus, p. 93). Erasmus wrote many other works, including Colloquiae Familiaria ("Ordinary Conversations"), which gives sketches of life from his own day, and Diatribe de Libero Arbitrio ("Discourse on the Freedom of the Will"), to which Luther responded with his classic The Bondage of the Will.

Erasmus almost single-handedly revived the study of Greek in the universities of Europe. He seems to have been practically self-taught, there being no one to turn to for help. He lectured for a time on Greek at Cambridge University. The statement sometimes met with, that Tyndale went "to Cambridge to learn Greek under Erasmus, who was teaching there from 1510 to 1514" (so stated but not documented by Benjamin Wilkinson in Which Bible?, p. 145) is mere wishful thinking. F. F. Bruce (The English Bible, pp. 26-27) states, "It has sometimes been suggested that one of Erasmus' pupils at Cambridge was William Tyndale; unfortunately, the evidence is against this. Erasmus left Cambridge in 1514, and Tyndale probably did not arrive there before 1516 at the earliest."

Erasmus is generally acknowledged as the greatest classical scholar of his time, though he was better at Latin than Greek (Schaff, Companion to the Greek Testament and Revised Version, p. 230). But of far greater importance than the revival of Greek studies was his editing and publishing of the Greek New Testament for the first time in 1516. The degraded condition of Greek studies in Europe just before the Reformation is evidenced by the fact that while the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible was printed about 1453 (the famous Gutenberg Bible), and was in fact the first book ever printed after the invention of movable type, and the complete Hebrew Old Testament had been printed as early as 1488, no one put the Greek New Testament in print until 1514. The churchmen and scholars had the authoritative Vulgate, so what need was there, they thought, to have the Greek?

The idea of editing and printing the Greek New Testament perhaps occurred to Erasmus as early as 1506 (cf. Froude, pp. 100, 117-18), though a revision of the Vulgate translation occupied his attention to a greater degree. In 1514, a Greek New Testament was printed as part of the Complutensian Polyglot being produced in Spain (a delay of eight years intervened before the Complutensian New Testament was actually published). A printer named Froben in Basle, Switzerland, learned of the Spanish- produced Greek New Testament and wished to publish one himself and beat the other into the marketplace. So Froben negotiated with Erasmus, who finally agreed to take part in the enterprise. Erasmus traveled to Basle and used what few Greek manuscripts were there as the basis of his text. Printing began in September or October, 1515, and was completed in March, 1516. The book was dedicated to Pope Leo X, and was duly copyrighted (see facsimile of title page in Schaff, p. 532).

In constructing and editing the text, Erasmus had the feeblest of manuscript resources. He chiefly used one manuscript of the Gospels, dating from the twelfth century, and one manuscript of Acts and the Epistles, also from the twelfth century. These he edited and corrected, using one or two additional manuscripts of each section, along with his Latin Vulgate. For Revelation, Erasmus had but one Greek manuscript which, though of better than average quality (so says Hort), yet lacked the last six verses of the book. To remedy this defect, Erasmus back-translated the last six verses of Revelation from Latin into Greek, with the result that the final verses of Revelation in his printed Greek text contain numerous Greek readings found in no Greek manuscript of any kind, and are therefore devoid of manuscript authority. (A list of these are given in Scrivener, Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, p. 296, n. 1, and Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, p. 100, n. 1).

One of those readings produced by Erasmus that lacks any Greek manuscript support is the reference to the "book of life" in Rev. 22:19. All Greek manuscripts read "tree of life"; not a single one reads "book of life." The corruption of "tree" into "book" occurred in Latin when a careless or sleepy scribe miscopied the correct ligno (tree) as though it were the similar-appearing libro (book). When Erasmus back-translated from Latin, he introduced for the first time ever in Greek the reading "book of life" in Rev. 22:19, and by the slavish reprinting of Erasmus' text by later editors, the reading "book of life" found its way into the textus receptus and the King James Version, even though it is completely without support of any kind in any Greek manuscript.

But not only in Rev. 22:15-21 do readings without Greek manuscript support occur. One lengthy insertion made by Erasmus on the basis of the Latin Vulgate and not on the basis of Greek manuscripts is found in Acts 9:5-6. The words (as found in the King James Version), "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished, said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said to him," are not found in any Greek manuscript of Acts. Where did they come from? Erasmus found the passage in the Vulgate as he knew it but not in the Greek; nevertheless, he inserted the words into his Greek text, borrowing those forming part of verse 5 from the parallel passage in Acts 26:14, and back-translating those forming part of verse 6 from Latin into Greek. (See Hills, The King James Version Defended, p. 201.) The slavish reprinting of Erasmus' text by later editors resulted in the textus receptus and the King James Version reading in Acts 9:5-6 as no Greek manuscript on earth has ever read. In fact, in more than twenty places, Erasmus' Greek text is not supported by any known Greek manuscript (Schaff, p. 231).

Devoid of truth is the bold assertion made by Benjamin Wilkinson without supporting documentation, that "There were hundreds of manuscripts for Erasmus to examine, and he did (emphasis added); but he only used a few." Wilkinson gives the clear implication that "the few Erasmus used were typical, that is, after he had thoroughly balanced the evidence of many," he used "the few which displayed the balance" (Which Bible?, p. 143). Erasmus no doubt was familiar with other Greek New Testament manuscripts besides those used in constructing his text, but to assert that he made a thorough investigation of hundreds of manuscripts and chose those typical of his findings is to fabricate that which did not happen. That Erasmus did not carefully select manuscripts he had found to be typically Byzantine is obvious from the fact that among his very limited resources was manuscript 1, one of the most non-Byzantine of the minuscule manuscripts; add to this the fact that Erasmus' sole manuscript of Revelation lacked the last six verses altogether, and it becomes transparently obvious that Wilkinson has engaged here, as he very often does, in a flight of fancy and mere wishful thinking rather than serious historical research.

The work on the Greek text was hastily and carelessly done. Erasmus' biographer Froude characterized Erasmus: "haste made him careless; and this fault always clung to him" (p. 8). Erasmus himself admitted that the work on his first edition "was done too hastily" (Froude, p. 189). He declared that the work was more precipitated than edited. Though Erasmus had spent fifteen years editing the works of Jerome and ten years in preparing a new Latin translation of the New Testament, he spent less than ten months, or rather part of ten months, in editing the Greek New Testament. The printer's work showed the haste of the production the book abounded in printer's errors, of which Scrivener said, "Erasmus' first edition is in that respect the most faulty book I know" (p. 296). Erasmus hated the tedium of proofreading and correcting his own books (Froude, p. 8).

One passage not included by Erasmus caused a great storm of controversy. That passage was the so-called Trinitarian passage, which in the King James Version reads, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" (found in 1 John 5:7- 8). The exclusion of these words from Erasmus' text was not from carelessness or haste, but was based on solid evidence: these words were not in the Greek manuscripts that Erasmus had used for his text; indeed, they were not found in any Greek text Erasmus had ever seen. When asked why he had deleted this proof text for the trinity, he replied that he didn't find it at all in the Greek manuscripts. The combination of accusations of Arianism, with Erasmus' thin-skinned sensitivity to criticism, caused him to rashly vow that if any Greek manuscript could be found to include the words in question, he would add them to his text. A manuscript was duly manufactured in Britain to suit the conditions of Erasmus' vow, so in his third edition (1522), Erasmus added the words to his text, but added a marginal note declaring his belief that the manuscript had been deliberately doctored. (The Greek manuscript evidence and the evidence from early translations and church fathers overwhelmingly declare that the trinitarian text is not an original or genuine part of 1 John, and has no legitimate place in the text of the New Testament, as anyone can see for himself by examining the evidence in, e.g., the commentaries of Adam Clarke [Vol. VI, pp. 927-933], Henry Alford [Vol. IV, pp. 503-505], and B. F. Westcott [pp. 202-209], Scrivener's Introduction [pp. 8, 149-150, 457-463], and Bruce Metzger's Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament [pp. 716- 718].) Luther never included the passage in any German translation produced in his lifetime. Both Tyndale and Coverdale indicated that they thought the suspect words were spurious.

Erasmus' Greek New Testament sold quickly, as Froben had anticipated. A second edition was soon called for. The opportunity was taken to correct mistakes and revise the text somewhat, on the basis of an additional manuscript. The second edition was published in 1519; this edition served as the basis for Luther's translation. A total of 3,300 copies of the first two editions were sold (Scrivener, p. 297). A third edition (for the first time including 1 John 5:7) came out in 1522. Tyndale based his epoch-making translation on this edition. A fourth edition, revised on the basis of the Complutensian Greek text (90 changes were made in Revelation alone) came out in 1527, and a fifth in 1535. These editions were, of course, not exactly alike. Mill estimated (greatly underestimated, according to Scrivener) the variations to number: between the first and second editions, 400; between second and third, 118; third and fourth, 113; fourth and fifth, 5 (Scrivener, p. 298).

Erasmus' fourth and fifth editions were all but slavishly reprinted by Stephanus, Beza, the Elzivirs, and others, in their editions of the Greek New Testament in the century that followed. All these collectively are often referred to as the textus receptus, or received text. It must be observed that these reprints merely reproduced, without examination of evidence, the hastily-produced text of Erasmus. The result is that the text of Erasmus, hurriedly assembled out of the slimmest of manuscript resources, containing a number of readings without any Greek manuscript support, became for nearly 300 years the only form of the Greek New Testament available in print, and the basic text for the Protestant translations of the New Testament made in those centuries. The so-called received text cannot claim authority on the basis of extensive manuscript evidence employed in its construction, for only a mere handful of manuscripts out of the thousands that exist were used in its compilation. Nor can it claim authority on the basis of a careful and deliberate sifting of evidence, for it was rushed through the hands of Erasmus and into print in great haste. Nor can it claim authority as representing always the Byzantine or majority text type (which some I think wrongly believe is the most original form of the New Testament text), for it departs from the majority of manuscripts in over 1,000 places (Pickering, Identity of the New Testament Text, p. 232).

In short, there is no ground whatsoever for accepting the textus receptus as the ultimate in precisely representing the original text of the New Testament. Rather than being the most pristine and pure Greek New Testament, it was in fact the most rudimentary and rustic, at best only a provisional text that could be made to serve for the time being until greater care, more thorough labor, and more extensive evidence could be had so as to provide a text of greater accuracy. It is unfortunate that what was only a meager first attempt at publishing a New Testament Greek text became fossilized as though it were the ultimate in accuracy. It was not until the nineteenth century that the shackles of mere tradition were thrown off and a Greek text based on a careful and thorough examination of an extensive amount of manuscript evidence was made available. The Greek texts of Griesbach, Tregelles, Tischendorf, Alford, and Westcott and Hort were, individually and collectively, a great improvement over the text of Erasmus, because they more accurately presented the text of the New Testament in the form it came from the pens of the Apostles.

In spite of the limitations and defects of the textus receptus, there is consolation in the fact that there is hardly a hair's breadth in doctrinal difference between Erasmus' text and that of, say, Westcott and Hort. Both texts are orthodox in theology. Where they differ, it is usually a case of the textus receptus supplementing or filling out passages by borrowing words from a parallel Gospel account or a similar phrase in another Epistle; an addition based on liturgical usage; expanding a title of one of the three persons of the Trinity; revising an Old Testament quotation into conformity to the Septuagint translation, or smoothing out an apparent difficulty in the original text. A. T. Robertson wrote, "It should be stated at once that the Textus Receptus is not a bad text. It is not a heretical text. It is substantially correct." (Introduction to Textual Criticism, p. 21; cf. p. 196.) J. Harold Greenlee has summarized the situation very well: "The Textus Receptus is not a `bad' or misleading text, either theologically or practically. Technically, however, it is far from the original text. Yet three centuries were to pass before scholars had won the struggle to replace this hastily- assembled text by a text which gave evidence of being closer to the N. T. autographs" (Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism, p. 72). God in His providence has seen fit that the text of the Greek New Testament has been kept doctrinally intact, so that there is no doctrinal issue garbled or marred by the manuscript and printed variations that exist. Richard Bentley, the greatest authority on the text of the New Testament in the eighteenth century, stated, "the real text of the sacred writings is competently exact, nor is one article of faith or moral precept either perverted or lost, choose as awkwardly as you will, choose the worst by design, out of the whole lump of readings.... But even put them into the hands of a knave or a fool, and yet with the most sinistrous and absurd choice, he shall not extinguish the light of any one chapter, nor so disguise Christianity, but that every feature of it will still be the same" (quoted in Scrivener, Plain Introduction, p. 7). F. H. A. Scrivener wrote of "the almost complete freedom of Holy Scripture from the bare suspicion of wilful corruption; the absolute identity of the testimony of every known copy in respect to doctrine, and spirit, and the main drift of every argument, and every narrative through the entire volume of Inspiration.... Thus hath God's Providence kept from harm the treasure of His written word, so far as is needful for the quiet assurance of His church and people" (Plain Introduction, pp. 6-7).

I do not wish to be too hard on Erasmus. After all, I recognize him as a pioneer who opened up a frontier for others to follow and laid a foundation on which others would build. Erasmus did not have the leisure (because of Froben's urging of haste) nor the resources, either in manuscripts or money, to produce as thoroughly and carefully and accurately done a Greek New Testament as he might have, had he had the things he lacked. But in a number of matters, his judgment on the original text of the New Testament closely follows that of recent editors of the New Testament. As we have seen, he rejected 1 John 5:7 as not being an original part of 1 John. In this, all Greek New Testament editions (other than mere reprints of Erasmus' text) agree, including The Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text of Hodges and Farstad. Erasmus also surmised that the doxology to the Lord's Prayer in Matt. 6:13, "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever, amen," was a later liturgical addition to Matthew, and formed no original part of that Gospel (Bainton, p. 137). In this virtually all Greek New Testament editors agree. Further, Erasmus doubted that Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11 formed an original part of those Gospels (ibid., p. 136). On the basis of available evidence, most New Testament editors agree with the judgement of Erasmus (the evidence on these disputed passages can be readily found in Alford's commentary or Metzger's Textual Commentary). All in all, Erasmus believed "the only way to determine the true text is to examine the early codices" (Bainton, p. 135). It is not unreasonable, therefore, to suppose that, were Erasmus alive today, he would use a Greek text like that of Nestle or the United Bible Societies' text.

One more matter about the text Erasmus published: in each edition he included in a column parallel to the Greek text a revision of the Latin Vulgate translation made by Jerome around 400 A.D. It must be remembered that Jerome's Latin translation had become esteemed and venerated to the point that it was considered beyond improvement, beyond correction, beyond alteration of any kind. Some even claimed the Greek and Hebrew originals of the Bible should be corrected by the Latin! (See Gill, Body of Divinity, p. 13.) No other translation of the Bible had been so widely used by God, they would protest. Bainton gives a lively account of the furor that arose over the revision of the Vulgate. Dorp, a friend and colleague of Erasmus, was shocked and outraged to hear that Erasmus proposed to publish the New Testament in Greek and accompanied by a new translation. To be sure Ambrose and Augustine had not depended upon Jerome's translation, but after he had castigated all of the errors his rendering had become standard as the basis for the decrees of councils. "What councils?" demanded Erasmus. "There were Greek councils which did not know Latin at all." "Don't listen to the Greeks," said Dorp. "They were heretics." "But," rejoined Erasmus, "Aristotle was even a pagan. Will you not read him? If you claim that the Vulgate is inspired equally with the original Greek and Hebrew and that to touch it is heresy and blasphemy what will you say about Bede, Rhabanus, Thomas Aquinas, and Nicolas of Lyra, not to mention others who undertook to make improvements? You must distinguish between Scripture, the translation of Scripture, and the transmission of both. What will you do with the errors of copyists?" Dorp was eventually persuaded and Erasmus was thereby confirmed in his judgment that courtesy rather than invective is the better way to win over an opponent. A sharper antagonist was Sutor, once of the Sorbonne, later a Carthusian who asserted that "if in one point the Vulgate were in error the entire authority of Holy Scripture would collapse, love and faith would be extinguished, heresies and schisms would abound, blasphemy would be committed against the Holy Spirit, the authority of theologians would be shaken, and indeed the Catholic Church would collapse from the foundations." Erasmus pointed out that prior to Jerome the early Church had not used the Vulgate and had not collapsed. To all who cried, "Jerome is good enough for me," he replied, "You cry out that it is a crime to correct the gospels. This is a speech worthier of a coachman than of a theologian. You think it is all very well if a clumsy scribe makes a mistake in transcription and then you deem it a crime to put it right. The only way to determine the true text is to examine the early codices." (Bainton, p. 135)

D'Aubigne describes Erasmus' adversaries on this point: "The priests saw the danger, and... attacked the translation and the translator. `He has corrected the Vulgate,' they said, `and put himself in the place of Saint Jerome. He sets aside a work authorized by the consent of ages and inspired by the Holy Ghost. What audacity!' " (History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p. 730)

Sir Thomas More, an Englishman and close friend of Erasmus, came to the defense of both the printing of a Greek New Testament and the revision of the Latin translation of Jerome:

I am in danger, forsooth, because I consider Erasmus
(as a good Greek scholar) to have given a better rendering
of passages in the New Testament than I find in the
received translation. Where is the danger? May I not
find pleasure in a work which the learned and pious admire,
and which the Pope himself has twice approved? Erasmus
determined nothing. He gives the facts and leaves the reader
to judge. Froude, p. 151) You complain of the study of Greek
and Hebrew. You say it leads to the neglect of Latin. Was
not the New Testament written in Greek? Did not
the early Fathers write in Greek? Is truth only to be
found in Gothic Latin? You will have no novelties; you say
the "old is better;" of course it is; the wisdom of the
Fathers is better than the babblings of you moderns.
You pretend that the Gospels can be understood without Greek;
that there is no need of a new translation; we have the Vulgate
and others besides, you say, anda new version was superfluous.
I beseech you, where are these others? I have never met a man
who has seen any but the Vulgate. Produce them. And for the
Vulgate itself, it is nonsense to talk of the many ages for
which it has been approved by the Church. It was the best the
Church could get. When once in use it could not easily be
changed, but to use it is not to approve it as perfect.
(Ibid., pp. 152- 153)


Froude himself describes the situation.

Pious, ignorant men had regarded the text of
the Vulgate as sacred, and probably inspired.
Read it intelligently they could not, but they had
made the language into an idol, and they were
filled with horrified amazement when they found in page
after page that Erasmus had anticipated modern criticism,
correcting the text, introducing various readings,
and retranslating passages from the Greek into a new
version. He had altered a word from the Lord's Prayer.
Horror of horrors! He had changed the translation of the
mystic Logos from Verbum into Sermo, to make people
understand what Logos meant. (Ibid., p. 234)

Substitute "English" for "Latin" and "King James Version" for "Vulgate" in the above quotes, and one needs very little imagination to see how precisely these remarks, first of Erasmus, then More, and finally of Froude, address the present English Bible translation controversy, and fully answer the antagonists in our day who object to any and every kind of revision, correction or improvement of the King James Version, even where the Greek text behind it is devoid of adequate manuscript support, where printer's errors still persist, where the English disagrees with the meaning of the original, or the English has become shrouded in obscurity through 400 years of change in the English language. The doctrine that the King James Version, or any other translation tion of the Bible, is sacrosanct and inviolable expressly denies the infallibility and authority of the Bible in the original languages. This is a fundamental doctrinal error and destroys the very foundations of the Christian faith.

Human nature (I might have said human perversity) has not changed in half a millennium. The doctrine of the medieval Catholic priests and monks that the translation of the New Testament they had always had and used was perfect in every jot and tittle has merely been adopted by some ill-informed Baptists (and others) today and transferred to the English translation they have always had and used. Ignorance loves darkness and objects to change of every kind, but the truth never fears the light. The sound reasoning and solid arguments that refuted such folly in the sixteenth century are still valid today.

H
HomeFree89

Part Two: Erasmus and His Theology

Erasmus, as we have shown, was responsible for the publishing of the Greek New Testament for the first time. In his lifetime, five editions were issued by him. These editions, and especially the fourth (1527), were more or less slavishly reprinted by Stephanus, Beza, the Elzivirs, and others. All these editions are now collectively referred to as the textus receptus or received text (though no two are precisely alike in every single detail, differing from one another in a number of minor matters). In a very real way, then, Erasmus is the father of the received Greek text, which served as the basic text for all Protestant New Testament translations until the 19th century.

There is currently in some quarters a lively debate over Greek texts, namely whether the textus receptus text or the critical text usually identified as the Westcott-Hort text more accurately reproduces the inerrant original writings of the Apostles. In reality, Westcott and Hort were not the first to print a revised Greek text, nor the last to do so. The English Revised Version of 1881 did not precisely follow their text. While a handful of obscure English translations were made directly from the Westcott-Hort text, no one holds today that this text is precisely correct in every reading and detail. Nevertheless, we will use the Westcott-Hort text for comparison, since it is mentioned so prominently.

Various arguments have been put forward to discredit the Westcott-Hort text. One of these, employed by Benjamin Wilkinson in "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated" (included as part of Which Bible?, edited by D. O. Fuller, 2nd ed., 1971) is the classic tactic, "poisoning the wells" (see A. J. Hoover, Don't You Believe It!, pp. 63-65, for an explanation of this particular type of fallacious argument). This line of argument seeks to discredit information a priori by discrediting its source before even considering the information the source has to present. The maxim, "If you cannot answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names," summarizes this argument. In the case of Westcott and Hort, the vile names hurled at them are "apostate" and "Romish." Wilkinson tries to establish (pp. 194- 199) by quotes extracted from biographies of Westcott and of Hort that they were less than orthodox, less than conservative, sympathetic to higher criticism, and inclined to Roman Catholicism These things being established as true in Wilkinson's mind, the implication is then given that these errors automatically discredit everything Westcott and Hort did, including in particular their Greek text.

I do not write to defend the orthodoxy of either Hort or Westcott. I have not read the biography of either, and have read only small amounts of Westcott's commentaries. Of Hort's works, I have read a part of his "Introduction" to their edition of the Greek New Testament, plus one other small and rather unimportant book. Since this is not enough in the case of either man to form a first-hand opinion as to his doctrinal soundness, I will reserve judgment until such time that I have read more extensively in their works. I do write, however, to expose the inherent flaw in the "poisoning the wells" argument as used by Wilkinson and others. This tactic is logically fallacious and doesn't "wash" in this particular case for several reasons.

First, Wilkinson's case is substantially weaker than a casual reading may indicate. One the one hand, a number of the quotes are colorless. Hort is quoted as saying, "I am very far from pretending to understand completely the oft-renewed vitality of Mariolatry." Such a statement surely does not implicate Hort in Mary-worship. Who has not been surprised at the continued worship of Mary, including the construction of shrines with cement statues as found in the yards of many Catholics? Such idolatrous folly in otherwise educated people is indeed difficult to understand. This quotation proves nothing at all.

On the other hand, Wilkinson has (wittingly or unwittingly) altered the thrust of at least one quote through deletion. Under the heading "Their Mariolatry," Westcott is quoted at length (p. 195):

After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory (a small chapel for private prayer) which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill.... Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small with one kneeling-place; and behind the screen was a "Pieta" the size of life (i.e., a Virgin and dead Christ).... Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours.

From the quotation in its edited form, it appears that Westcott was here inclined to venerate this statue of Mary and Jesus. However, the full quotation shows just the opposite. In the second editorial deletion made by Wilkinson (immediately following the parenthesis), Westcott continues:

The sculpture was painted and such a group in such a place and at such a time was deeply impressive. I could not help thinking on the fallen grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in error [emphasis added], on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and purer end, strive to imitate. (Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, vol. I, p. 81)

Then follows the remark about praying for hours. Clearly it was not the statue or veneration for Mary that compelled him to want to pray, but recognition that those in error are often more zealous, self-devoted, and earnest than the orthodox. Certainly it would serve Christianity well if our enthusiasm in propagating our belief matched that of the heterodox.

Of course, some of the quotations produced by Wilkinson do seem to set Hort and Westcott in a bad light doctrinally. I do not deny this, nor do I care to gloss over their theological errors or defend them in any way. However, doctrinal error does not in and of itself discredit their Greek text. "If the premises are sufficient, they are so, no matter by whom stated" (M. R. Cohen). "You can prove I'm the Devil's brother, and you still haven't answered my argument" (Anonymous, both quoted by Hoover, p. 59).

Second, many doctrinally orthodox men have accepted the critical Greek text as more closely corresponding to the inerrant original writings than the textus receptus. S. P. Tregelles was a British scholar affiliated first with the Plymouth Brethren and reportedly later with the Baptists. (See Schaff-Herzog, vol. IV, p. 2388, and Life and Letters of John A. Broadus, p. 352.) Tregelles was premillennial and wrote a famous commentary defending the Book of Daniel. He produced a revised Greek text (1857- 1879) before the Westcott-Hort text was issued (1881). Tregelles' text was the result of decades of laborious and exacting personal inspection of manuscripts. These is very little difference in substance between his text and the later text of Westcott and Hort. If orthodoxy in theology guaranteed the soundness of an author's textual studies, then we would be compelled to accept the critical text because Tregelles was doctrinally orthodox. (The same line of argument could be pursued using another 19th century Greek text editor, Constantine Tischendorf.

Not only text editors, but also pastors, scholars, and seminary professors of unquestioned doctrinal orthodoxy could be paraded almost ad infinitum who accept the primacy of the critical text. A few examples will suffice. B. B. Warfield, the great Princeton theologian, was one of the authors of The Fundamentals. J. Oliver Buswell, Jr., called him "the greatest defender of the inerrancy of the Bible among scholarly theologians of the recent past." (See A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, vol. I, p. 325.) In his book Introduction to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament, Warfield advocated the superiority of the critical text over the received text. John A. Broadus, the preeminent Baptist in America in the 19th century, advocated the superiority of the revised text of the textus receptus (Commentary on Matthew, preface, p. xlix; On the Preparation and Delivery of Sermons, Weatherspoon revision, pp. 21-22, 36). A. T. Robertson, probably the greatest New Testament scholar America has ever seen, and an orthodox Baptist, advocated the revised Greek text as more accurately representing the original text of the New Testament than the textus receptus (An Introduction to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament, throughout). We could add the names of Spurgeon (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1881, pp. 342-343), B. H. Carroll (Inspiration of the Bible, pp. 52-53, 105) and a multitude more, but this is unnecessary. The point made is this: if doctrinal orthodoxy alone guaranteed sound judgment on matters of the Greek text, then the critical or revised text should be accepted simply because sound men do so. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the one argument is invoked (discrediting the critical text because of the heterodoxy of Westcott and Hort), then so must the other (accepting the critical text because of the orthodoxy of Tregelles, Warfield, Broadus, Robertson et al.) In reality, neither argument has any necessary relationship to the issue at hand.

Third, if there are hints of Romish leanings in Hort and Westcott (we allow the assertion for the sake of argument), there is a veritable flood of quotes from Erasmus himself protesting his absolute and undying loyalty to Roman Catholicism, its doctrine, and its pope.

Erasmus was a Roman Catholic priest. While he vigorously denounced the corruption and immorality of the monks and priests of his day, he did not object to Roman Catholic doctrine. He objected to Roman conduct, not to Roman theology. He was a lifelong, devoted Catholic. Note his own words (taken from Froude, Life and Letters of Erasmus):

From the time when I was a child I have been a devoted worshipper of St. Anne. I composed a hymn to her when I was young, and the hymn I now send to you, another Anne. I send to you, besides, a collection of prayers to the Holy Virgin. They are not spells to charm the moon out of the sky, but they will bring down out of Heaven her who brought forth the Sun of Righteousness. She is easy to approach. (p. 86)

Disowning any connection at all with Luther, Erasmus wrote, "Christ I know; Luther I know not. The Roman Church I know, and death will not part me from it till the Church departs from Christ" (p. 261). Again, "I have sought to save the dignity of the Roman Pontiff, the honour of Catholic theology, and the welfare of Christendom" (p. 262). And again, But be assured of this, if any movement is in progress injurious to the Christian religion, or dangerous to the public peace or to the supremacy of the Holy See, it does not proceed from Erasmus.... I have not deviated in what I have written one hair's breadth from the Church's teaching. p. 162) I am not so mad as to fly in the face of the Vicar of Christ. (pp. 271-272)

The Holy See needs no support from such a worm as I am, but I shall declare that I mean to stand by it. (p. 270)

The Pope's authority as Christ's Vicar must be upheld. (p. 275)

You may assure yourself that Erasmus has been, and always will be, a faithful subject of the Holy See. (p. 279)

The Lutherans alternately courted me and menaced me. For all this, I did not move a finger's breadth from the teaching of the Roman Church. (p. 340)

... I will bear anything before I forsake the Church. (p. 355)

Froude speaks of the need to clearly differentiate between Erasmus' desire to change the conduct of the Church and Luther's desire to change its doctrine:

You cannot understand the sixteenth century till you recognize the immense difference then present in the minds of men between a change of doctrine and a reformation of the Church's manners and morals. (pp. 295-296)

This truth is illustrated by a number of Erasmus' own statements:

The reformers turn the images out of the churches, which originally were useful and ornamented. They might have been content to forbid the worship of images, and to have removed only the superfluous. They will have no priests. It would be better to have priests of learning and piety, and to provide that orders are not hastily entered into. There would be fewer of them, but better three good than three hundred bad. They do not like so much ritual. True, but it would be enough to abolish the absurd. Debauched priests who do nothing but mumble masses are generally hated. Do away with the hirelings, and allow but one celebration a day in the churches. Indulgences, with which the monks so long fooled the world with the connivance of the theologians, are now exploded. Well, then, let those who have no faith in saints' merits pray to Father, Son and Holy Ghost, imitate Christ in their lives, and leave those alone who do believe in saints. If the saints do not hear them, Christ may hear them. Confession is an ancient custom. Let those who deny that it is a sacrament observe it till the Church decides otherwise. No great harm can come of confession so long as men confess only their own mortal sins. Let men think as they please of purgatory, without quarreling with others who do not think as they do. Theologians may argue about free will in the Sorbonne. Laymen need not puzzle themselves with conundrums. Whether works justify or faith justifies matters little, since all allow that faith will not save without works. In Baptism let the old rule be kept. Parents may perhaps be left to decide whether it shall be administered in infancy or delayed to maturity. Anabaptists must not be tolerated.... As to the Eucharist, let the old opinion stand till a council has provided a new revelation. The Eucharist is only adored so far as Christ is supposed to be present there as God. The human nature is not adored, but the Divine nature, which is Omnipresent. The thing to be corrected is the abuse of the administration. (pp. 344-345)

The mass has been made a trade for illiterate and sordid priests, and a contrivance to quiet the conscience of reprobates. So the cry is raised, "Abolish the mass, put it away, make an end of it." Is there no middle course? Cannot the mass be purified? Saint-worship has been carried so far that Christ has been forgotten. Therefore, respect for saints is idolatry, and orders founded on their names must be dissolved. Why so violent a remedy? Too much has been made of rituals and vestments, but we might save, if we would, the useful part of such things. Confession has been abused, but it could be regulated more strictly. (p. 358; cf. also p. 360)

But never will I be tempted or exasperated into deserting the true communion.... I will not forsake the Church myself, I would forfeit life and reputation sooner.... Doubtless I have wished that popes and bishops and cardinals were more like the apostles, but never in thought have I desired those offices be abolished. There may be arguments about the Real Presence, but I will never believe the Christ would have allowed the Church to remain so long in such an error (if error it be) as to worship a wafer for God. (p. 365)

Erasmus wished to avoid technical discussion concerning transubstantiation. "Such problems may be discussed among the learned. For the vulgar it is enough to believe that the real body and blood of our Lord are actually present" (p. 386)

And finally, did Erasmus reject the basis tenets of Romanism? Some of his accusers affirmed so. In defense, he wrote:

... they sing the old song. Erasmus laughs at the
saints, despises the sacraments, denies the faith,
is against clerical celibacy, monks' vows,
and human institutions.Erasmus paved the way for Luther.
So they gabble; and it is all lies. (p. 421)

Church historian Philip Schaff, while acknowledging that in many ways Erasmus laid the foundation for the Reformation, said his influence was felt in other areas as well: "He was as much a forerunner of Rationalism as of the Reformation." (History of the Christian Church, vol. VII, p. 404). His son David S. Schaff, in the same set speaks of Erasmus' loyalty to Rome:

Erasmus never intended to separate from Rome any more than his English friends, John Colet and Thomas More. He declared he had never departed from the judgment of the Church, nor could he. "Her consent is so important to me that I would agree with the Arians and Pelagians if the Church should approve of what they taught." (vol. VI, p. 641)

Roland Bainton, in his biography of Erasmus, characterized the fundamental theological differences between Erasmus and Luther:

Luther shrank from the sight of the crucifix because the Christ on the cross would some day sit upon a rainbow to consign the damned to eternal perdition. Erasmus shuddered at death because it might cut him off before he could so far progress in virtue as to be "capable of eternal life." (p. 17)

The reading of Froude's biography of Erasmus left me with the distinct impression that Erasmus believed that sincerity alone was enough to please God.

One interesting side note on the theology of Erasmus: his favorite church father, like that of Hort, was Origen (Bainton, p. 143). Of Origen's writings, Erasmus wrote, "I have also read a great part of Origen, who opens out new fountains of thought and furnishes a complete key to theology" (Froude, p. 93).

It must also be remembered that Erasmus' first edition of his Greek New Testament was approved by Pope Leo X (Froude, p. 191).

Doctrinally, there is no question where Erasmus stood. Our perception is not limited to a few hints or suggestions, a deduction here or an inference there. Boldly and repeatedly, Erasmus declares himself to be a loyal and devoted Romanist, consenting to all that Rome stood for doctrinally, with its Mary- worship, veneration of the saints, sacrifice of the mass, papal supremacy, purgatory, monastic vows and orders and all else. He refused to side with Luther, and vigorously opposed the Protestant Reformation. He sought and got the Pope's sanction for his New Testament.

If theological inclination accredits or discredits a man's work on the text of the New Testament I do not think there is any necessary connection, but this is the argument of Wilkinson and others if Romish and heretical leanings by Westcott and Hort discredit their Greek text, then the text of Erasmus and all subsequent editions based on it, i.e., all textus receptus editions, are blown completely out of the water.

I trust advocates of the supremacy of the textus receptus see the corner into which they paint themselves by using this faulty argument. I strongly urge that the merit or demerit of printed Greek Testaments be evaluated on the basis of manuscript evidence, ancient translations, quotations from patristic authors, and principles of textual criticism, and not on the basis of the largely irrelevant issue of the theology of the text-editors.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Walter...

Did you read the rest of my post? You didn't seem to touch on it. If you study the life of Eramus, you will realize that his beliefs were far from what most believers today would call "mainstream." Yet we somehow have believers today who believe that a translation that is based largely upon this single man's work as "perfect."

I'm not saying that you are one of those who believe that the KJV is the only perfect or right version. However, your posts in this thread seem to indicate an unrealistic causality concerning the differences between the KJV and a modern version like the NIV. The KJV is different from the NIV -- not because the translators of the NIV wanted to change the words -- but because the sources used did not support the same sort of translation as the KJV. So to compare the two is like trying to compare apples and oranges. The two sources are different; thus, the subsequent translations will reflect those differences.

Translation is a difficult process. For instance, if you compare the translations of Francis Scott Key's [i]The Star Spangled Banner[/i] in Spanish -- you might be surprised to find several variations. In fact, no matter where you go, the translation will be somewhat different. Now imagine trying to translate each of those Spanish versions of [i]The Star Spangled Banner[/i] into Russian. What is the likelihood that each translation would be exactly the same?

The King James Version is an English translation of a Greek compilation known as the Textus Receptus (performed almost entirely by a single Catholic man named Erasmus) with strong attention paid to other existing English versions. The Textus Receptus is taken mostly from the Byzantine (Majority) text source, but differs from it in nearly 2000 places. Ironically, Erasmus was in a hurry to complete his translation and admitted to having translated some passages from the Latin Vulgate into Greek for the completion of his work.

Ironically, most of us criticize [i]The Living Bible[/i] because it is also the work of a single man. I am not claiming that Erasmus was biased in his creation of the Textus Receptus. There are claims that he altered some of his passages to correspond with verses in the Vulgate (as well as traditional Church teaching). However, it seems to be a faithful rendition of the New Testament into 16th Century Greek.

A vast majority of text scholars prefer an eclectic approach of Scripture translation that favors no single source. It considers all sources – including the Alexandrian text type while cross referencing the Byzantine. This was the basis for some academic translations (like the NIV). Unfortunately, there have been quite a few rumors and old wives tales whispered (or even shouted) about that version of the Bible. I’ve long thought that an attempt to malign one version (like the NIV) is not a very effective way of promoting another (like the KJV).

It is unproductive to simply search through the Scriptures to find particular passages that differ between the KJV and the NIV. Why? They are taken from different sets of sources. They simply are derived from what the translators found by comparing the sources.

But this is a very, very tiring subject. It has been discussed many times here at SermonIndex over the years. As Mike (the moderator) pointed out, it might be helpful to look up those threads rather than simply creating a new thread that repeats many of the same things. I might suggest, however, that you open yourself to discussion rather than by making an attempt to proselyte others to your views.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Dear Ccchhhrrriiisss:

Just to let you know, I did take the Moderators advice and look at the prior posts on Bible Versions. I have purposely not engaged anyone on this thread. My purpose is only to post the vast differences between the two texts. 1) The Authorized Version, the Majority text and 2) the Catholic version, the Minority text.

I really have no interest in getting into the very interesting details of Desiderius Erasmus, who had unlimited access to the Vatican Library, as well as all of the libraries and institutions of Europe. He also had unlimited access to the writings of the early Church Fathers (Patristics) that assisted him in his work.

[b]With that being said, I do not want this post to end as the others, with nothing more than division and nothing more than “he said—she said.”

Please Ccchhhrrriiisss, if you or others have scriptures from the NIV or any other newer versions that equal or surpass the Doctrine of the King James, then please post them here. If you find doctrine presented in the Majority text that is better presented in the NIV or other newer versions, then post it here. In that way, we will be able to keep this on a high level, and we all might learn something in the process. This is not a battle that has to be won by one party or another. This is God's Word, presented in two forms--the Majority text and the Minority text. Let the texts speak for themselves.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

[b]LUKE[/b]

[b]1:28 "blessed art thou among women" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] There were many virgins in Israel at the time, but God chose Mary. The Son that she bore would be her Saviour from sin. The Roman Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary (concerning her birth) is nothing but pagan fiction. Mary was blessed AMONG women, but not ABOVE women. The worship of Mary is contrary to Scripture. This omission is designed to lift her above others and eventually deify her. [/color][/b]

[b]2:14 "peace, good will toward men" is changed to "peace among men of good will."[/b] [b][color=990000] The first talks of the birth of Christ as bringing God's peace and good will (reconciliation) to men. Faith in the death of Christ for our sins brings justification and peace with God. The change offers God's peace to men who are good. That is doctrinally unsound since there is none good. [/color][/b]

[b]2:33 "Joseph and his mother" is changed to "his father and mother." [/b][b][color=990000]The Spirit of God is very careful to show that our Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and that he did not have a human father who begat him. The change casts doubt upon the doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ as the "seed of the woman." Later, when Mary refers to Joseph as "thy father," Jesus answers with, "wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business," meaning that God was his father (see 2:48,49). [/color][/b]

[b]2:40 "in spirit" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] That the child grew and waxed strong in spirit (meaning that he was spiritually strong) is evident from verse 47. It is unlikely that the Spirit of God wanted us to see how strong Jesus was with reference to his physique. [/color][/b]

[b]2:43 "and Joseph and his mother knew not of it" is changed to "and his parents were unaware of it."[/b] [b][color=990000] The first retains the teachings of the virgin birth, the second discards it. The virgin birth is a Fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith and the MAJORITY Text upholds it. Let us not hear of supposed overzealous copyists but rather let us beware of overzealous heretics who would deny the fundamentals of the faith. [/color][/b]

[b]4:4 "but by every Word of God" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000]Many are willing to agree that bread alone cannot satisfy man, but few are willing to live by every word of God. This quotation is from Deut. 8:3 where the omitted words are found. The same one who said, "Yea, hath God said?" is the author of this omission. The Revisers could not leave this passage in because they have changed "every word of God" in over 5,000 places in the New Testament. Satan does not mind if we read the Bible as long as we have a Swiss cheese Bible (full of holes). Holes in the Word cause doubts in the Word, doubts cause faith to be lost, and without faith it is impossible to please him. [/color][/b]

[b]4:8 "Get thee behind me, Satan" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] The devil had tempted Jesus to bypass the cross and receive the kingdom over the world. Jesus, whose face was set as a flint to go to the cross, refused to worship him. [/color][/b]

[b]6:10 "whole as the other" is left out.[/b] [b][color=990000] These words tell us that not only was his hand restored to use but it was whole as the other. The completeness of the miracle is attested to by these words. [/color][/b]

[b]9:54 "even as Elias did" is omitted. [/b] [b][color=990000]Apart from this word they had no precedent for doing such a thing. [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]9:55, 56 "and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" is omitted. In reply to the disciples who thought that they could call down fire from heaven, Jesus told them that he came to save men. This passage is consistent with John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]11:2-4 "Our ... which art in heaven" is deleted along with "Thy will be done as in heaven, so in earth" and "but deliver us from evil." Only corrupt manuscripts can produce so many departures from the disciples prayer which is found without deletions in Matt. 6:9-13. [/color][/b]

14:5 [b]The word "ass" is changed to "son."[/b] [b][color=990000] The use of "son" is too much for the comparison the Lord is making. Only a slavish loyalty to a corrupt Greek text can produce such a foolish change. [/color][/b]

[b]22:31 "And the Lord said" is dropped.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Lord Jesus was God and as such he was omnipresent and omniscient. He was present when Satan came before God and asked permission to try Peter's faith. He had prayed to the Father, as Peter's intercessor, that his faith would not fail. It was the Lord who knew all of this and warned Peter specifically. [/color][/b]

[b]22:64 "they struck him on the face" is dropped. [/b] [b][color=990000]It is error to minimize the sufferings of Christ. His facial appearance was marred more than any man (see Isaiah 52:14 and 53:5). [/color][/b]

[b]23:23 "and of the chief priests" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] The Lord was careful to let us know that the religious priests were involved in the rejection of Christ. Those who call themselves priests today do likewise. [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]23:42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" is changed to "Then he said, Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom." The confession that Jesus is Lord is doctrinally correct because it is required for salvation (see Rom. 10:9- 13). [/color][/b]

[b]23:45 "the sun was darkened" is changed to "the sun was eclipsed."[/b] [b][color=990000] The Greek word in the corrupt Greek Text is EKLIPONTOS from which we derive the word ECLIPSE. An eclipse is caused by the natural occurrence of the moon passing between the sun and the earth and usually lasts for about 3-5 minutes. The sun being darkened for three hours was a miracle of God and will be repeated again prior to the Lord's return to earth (see Matt. 24:29) Many modern versions try to hide the Greek word they are using to translate from the corrupt Greek text by using words like: obscured (NASV), faded (AMPLIFIED), stopped shining (NIV), failed (NEW WORLD), but some honestly translate the word "eclipse" (20th CENTURY, MOFFAT, NEB, PHILLIPS). Humanism would try to find some way to explain away the miracles of God's Word lest they be forced to accept it as the revelation from God concerning salvation. [/color][/b]

[b]24:36 "and saith unto them. Peace be unto you" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000] Jesus had said to them, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you" (John 14:27). He was now risen from the dead and in their midst to guarantee that peace to them. One of the greatest benefits of our salvation is to have peace with God (Rom. 5:1) and the peace of God ruling in our hearts (Phil. 4:7). [/color][/b]
[b][color=990000]24:40 The whole verse is omitted. The bodily resurrection of Christ is proven here as he showed them his hands and his feet. The omission affects Bible doctrine very much. [/color][/b]

[b]24:51 "and carried up into heaven" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000]The bodily ascension of Christ into heaven is a Bible doctrine that is denied here. It leaves the Lord parted from them but does not tell us where he went. The Revisers removed the doctrine and left the Word in a poor state of disarray. Acts 1:1, 2 tells us that the "former treatise" (Luke) ended with Jesus being "taken up." That ought to be sufficient to show the Revisers are wrong. [/color][/b]

[b]24:52 "And ... worshipped him" is omitted by the NASV.[/b] [b][color=990000]The MAJORITY Text says, "And they having worshipped him returned to Jerusalem with great joy." The picture we have is of our Lord receiving their worship because he is God (see 4:8 where worship is to be to God only) and then before their very eyes ascending into heaven. It is a Bible doctrine that we are to worship Jesus and the omission by the NASV is a clear denial of that doctrine. [/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter
:-)

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Walter...

I am not certain of your intentions in this matter.

Are you out to "prove" that all other versions are flawed EXCEPT the King James Version?

Are you trying to argue that the King James Version is perfect?

Are you trying to say that the King James is not perfect, but simply a better and more faithful translation than the other TR versions and "modern" versions?

Are you trying to say that the Textus Receptus is perfect?

Are you trying to say that the Textus Receptus is a better source than the Alexandrian texts, the Dead Sea Scrolls, et al?

Are you trying to say that the manner in which the Textus Receptus was translated is superior than the eclectic manner that is favored by a majority of textual scholars and experts?

Over the years, people have ventured into SI with the well-meaning intention of opening such "discussions" to reach an end that is not clearly spelled out. You see, this isn't "beating a dead horse" (as someone described these repetitious discussions in the past). In my opinion, it is more like swatting at shadows. It just seems like we never clearly understand what individuals are trying to convey or accomplish by their posts.

It is pointless to just compare verses from a TR translation with a translation taken from other sources. Why? The usual allegation is expressed in a manner that conveys a belief that the translators of versions taken from the Alexandrian text sources PURPOSELY ignored particular verses or phrases. It almost seems as if people want to believe that those translators had ulterior motives -- PURPOSELY wanting to "omit" such things that they saw in order to create a translation that supported their own doctrinal beliefs. After truly researching this matter in depth, I found that this couldn't be farther from the truth.

I personally contacted several of the translators of the NIV. I even contacted the infamous "lesbian professor" who was consulted early in the process (not for translation purposes, but for grammatical syntax BEFORE she had revealed to anyone that she was a homosexual). There wasn't any omission of verses that the translators believed should have been included. They felt that they faithfully produced a version of the Bible using the preferred eclectic method of translation -- considering the best available manuscripts. Those translators even footnoted every substantial variation in translation (something that the KJV translators also admitted, but never appeared in a printed edition).

Those NIV translators, like the ones who worked on the King James Version several hundred years earlier, admitted that they produced an imperfect translation. Why? Their answer mirrored that of the translators of the KJV: It was a work performed by flawed men.

If we are going to spend time copying, pasting and comparing various passages of Scripture, let us make it clear that those differences appeared in the sources used for the various translations. We shouldn't pretend like we know WHY there are such differences (unless you have read the notes of Erasmus, the KJV committee or the NIV committee, etc.). We need to lay the ax to the root without meandering toward laying any sort of accusations at one group or another (which I am certainly NOT saying you are guilty of).

It would be nice to have a discussion that didn't involve "why are these verses different" when we already know that they are different because they were taken from different sources. If you want to point the finger (and feel safe enough to do so), then perhaps it should be pointed at those who produced those sources many hundreds of years ago for which the translators of the NIV, KJV and even Erasmus and older scribes used.


Please Ccchhhrrriiisss, if you or others have scriptures from the NIV or any other newer versions that equal or surpass the Doctrine of the King James, then please post them here.
There is no need for such a thing, brother. There are many, many verses that agree (doctrinally) between the NIV and the KJV -- far more than the instances in which they disagree. It would be pointless to include them because they include everything OTHER THAN those few obvious verses that are translated differently IN THE ORIGINAL SOURCES. Contrary to popular belief, the NIV includes passages that embrace the Trinity, personal holiness, essential sanctification, repentance, and even those sins of the flesh (including sexual sins and homosexuality). Thus, there is no need to defend a translation like the NIV -- because its work stands on its own merit.

My biggest fear from these sorts of discussions, brother, is that they often result in accusations. Accusations are laid at the hearts of translators, source writers, and even ancient scribes. Yet we have never met most of these men. We don't know their hearts or even the spiritual doctrines by which they lived. Some have even ventured to point the finger at versions like the NIV and call it "evil." What if they are wrong? What if it is simply a decent, well-meaning academic translation of the WORD OF GOD that simply differs from the KJV because it was taken from a different set of sources? What if there is a danger in labeling something as "evil" that is in fact portions of the true Word of God?

It is just something to think about. The Lord bless you!

P
PaulWest

It would be nice to have a discussion that didn't involve "why are these verses different" when we already know that they are different because they were taken from different sources.

Parallel KJV-NLT anyone? :-)

(edit) Throw in the MYLT and you have a fully solid, nutritious and flavorful feast.

S
sermonindex

I believe that the best English Bible translation is the Literal Version (LITV), which is based on the same Hebrew and Greek manuscripts as the KJV but is more literal than the KJV and avoids the errors of the KJV (although it is not an inerrant translation). The KJV-Only advocates reject this version as a "modern version," even though it is based on exactly the same manuscripts and uses a verbal equivalence method of translation. Read it here: http://www.newacts.org/litv

P
PaulWest

We live in a wonderful time where the translated Word of God is abundant and varied and accessible to all without one having to be a polyglot or Hebrew-Greek expert. We have the bountiful, eclectic labors of godly men who have down through the centuries diligently, academically, inspirationally and painstakingly presented to us in the English language a myriad of slants and insights and crystallized thoughts in to the expressed Word of God. We have all this at our fingertips, and God is all too accomodating in His wish to breathe revelatory life by His Spirit into any translation brought to us by honorable, Christ-centered motives. He has tremendously honored the AV1611, but He has also honored the MSG and Living Bible through the teachings of men like Poonen. I count it a wonderful thing to be in the midst of such a garden of delights, of such varied flavors and colors of God's Word.

If we were wise, we would take full advantage of all the resources available by the discretion of the Holy Spirit, and at once stop our entrenching dogmatism. It is fine to have a preference as far as a translation goes - I think we should have preferences, it is healthy - but having a preference to a certain spice or flavor should not result in an all-around neglection of and abstainment from the lesser varieties.

C
crsschk

I really have no interest in getting into the very interesting details of Desiderius Erasmus ...

Yet you should because it speaks very well to this whole situation.

[i]In spite of the limitations and defects of the textus receptus, there is consolation in the fact that there is hardly a hair's breadth in doctrinal difference between Erasmus' text and that of, say, Westcott and Hort. Both texts are orthodox in theology. Where they differ, it is usually a case of the textus receptus supplementing or filling out passages by borrowing words from a parallel Gospel account or a similar phrase in another Epistle; an addition based on liturgical usage; expanding a title of one of the three persons of the Trinity; revising an Old Testament quotation into conformity to the Septuagint translation, or smoothing out an apparent difficulty in the original text. A. T. Robertson wrote, "It should be stated at once that the Textus Receptus is not a bad text. It is not a heretical text. It is substantially correct." (Introduction to Textual Criticism, p. 21; cf. p. 196.) J. Harold Greenlee has summarized the situation very well: "The Textus Receptus is not a `bad' or misleading text, either theologically or practically. Technically, however, it is far from the original text. Yet three centuries were to pass before scholars had won the struggle to replace this hastily- assembled text by a text which gave evidence of being closer to the N. T. autographs" (Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism, p. 72). God in His providence has seen fit that the text of the Greek New Testament has been kept doctrinally intact, so that there is no doctrinal issue garbled or marred by the manuscript and printed variations that exist. Richard Bentley, the greatest authority on the text of the New Testament in the eighteenth century, stated, "the real text of the sacred writings is competently exact, nor is one article of faith or moral precept either perverted or lost, choose as awkwardly as you will, choose the worst by design, out of the whole lump of readings.... But even put them into the hands of a knave or a fool, and yet with the most sinistrous and absurd choice, he shall not extinguish the light of any one chapter, nor so disguise Christianity, but that every feature of it will still be the same" (quoted in Scrivener, Plain Introduction, p. 7). F. H. A. Scrivener wrote of "the almost complete freedom of Holy Scripture from the bare suspicion of wilful corruption; the absolute identity of the testimony of every known copy in respect to doctrine, and spirit, and the main drift of every argument, and every narrative through the entire volume of Inspiration.... Thus hath God's Providence kept from harm the treasure of His written word, so far as is needful for the quiet assurance of His church and people" (Plain Introduction, pp. 6-7).[/i]

In that way, we will be able to keep this on a high level, and we all might learn something in the process. This is not a battle that has to be won by one party or another. This is God's Word, presented in two forms--the Majority text and the Minority text. Let the texts speak for themselves.

How can you if you admittedly have already come to a conclusion? Furthermore none of what you are presenting is on a 'high level' it is full of conjecture and vindictive, how could you expect to be taken seriously that you have any real knowledge of the issues or the work done in translating, that of the differences and reasons of the texts themselves, the fundamental issues and expect a launching forth on the premise "Let the texts speak for themselves"? You are not doing this whatsoever. You are speaking for the texts.

There are scholars who have wrestled with these issues for years and you think your little excursion here is to simplify it all by a meager and completely undocumented account between finished versions is going to settle it for everyone?

[i]One more matter about the text Erasmus published: in each edition he included in a column parallel to the Greek text a revision of the Latin Vulgate translation made by Jerome around 400 A.D. It must be remembered that Jerome's Latin translation had become esteemed and venerated to the point that it was considered beyond improvement, beyond correction, beyond alteration of any kind. Some even claimed the Greek and Hebrew originals of the Bible should be corrected by the Latin! (See Gill, Body of Divinity, p. 13.) No other translation of the Bible had been so widely used by God, they would protest. Bainton gives a lively account of the furor that arose over the revision of the Vulgate. Dorp, a friend and colleague of Erasmus, was shocked and outraged to hear that Erasmus proposed to publish the New Testament in Greek and accompanied by a new translation. To be sure Ambrose and Augustine had not depended upon Jerome's translation, but after he had castigated all of the errors his rendering had become standard as the basis for the decrees of councils. "What councils?" demanded Erasmus. "There were Greek councils which did not know Latin at all." "Don't listen to the Greeks," said Dorp. "They were heretics." "But," rejoined Erasmus, "Aristotle was even a pagan. Will you not read him? If you claim that the Vulgate is inspired equally with the original Greek and Hebrew and that to touch it is heresy and blasphemy what will you say about Bede, Rhabanus, Thomas Aquinas, and Nicolas of Lyra, not to mention others who undertook to make improvements? You must distinguish between Scripture, the translation of Scripture, and the transmission of both. What will you do with the errors of copyists?" Dorp was eventually persuaded and Erasmus was thereby confirmed in his judgment that courtesy rather than invective is the better way to win over an opponent. A sharper antagonist was Sutor, once of the Sorbonne, later a Carthusian who asserted that "if in one point the Vulgate were in error the entire authority of Holy Scripture would collapse, love and faith would be extinguished, heresies and schisms would abound, blasphemy would be committed against the Holy Spirit, the authority of theologians would be shaken, and indeed the Catholic Church would collapse from the foundations." Erasmus pointed out that prior to Jerome the early Church had not used the Vulgate and had not collapsed. To all who cried, "Jerome is good enough for me," he replied, "You cry out that it is a crime to correct the gospels. This is a speech worthier of a coachman than of a theologian. You think it is all very well if a clumsy scribe makes a mistake in transcription and then you deem it a crime to put it right. The only way to determine the true text is to examine the early codices." (Bainton, p. 135)

D'Aubigne describes Erasmus' adversaries on this point: "The priests saw the danger, and... attacked the translation and the translator. `He has corrected the Vulgate,' they said, `and put himself in the place of Saint Jerome. He sets aside a work authorized by the consent of ages and inspired by the Holy Ghost. What audacity!' " (History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, p. 730)

Sir Thomas More, an Englishman and close friend of Erasmus, came to the defense of both the printing of a Greek New Testament and the revision of the Latin translation of Jerome:

I am in danger, forsooth, because I consider Erasmus
(as a good Greek scholar) to have given a better rendering
of passages in the New Testament than I find in the
received translation. Where is the danger? May I not
find pleasure in a work which the learned and pious admire,
and which the Pope himself has twice approved? Erasmus
determined nothing. He gives the facts and leaves the reader
to judge. Froude, p. 151) You complain of the study of Greek
and Hebrew. You say it leads to the neglect of Latin. Was
not the New Testament written in Greek? Did not
the early Fathers write in Greek? Is truth only to be
found in Gothic Latin? You will have no novelties; you say
the "old is better;" of course it is; the wisdom of the
Fathers is better than the babblings of you moderns.
You pretend that the Gospels can be understood without Greek;
that there is no need of a new translation; we have the Vulgate
and others besides, you say, anda new version was superfluous.
I beseech you, where are these others? I have never met a man
who has seen any but the Vulgate. Produce them. And for the
Vulgate itself, it is nonsense to talk of the many ages for
which it has been approved by the Church. It was the best the
Church could get. When once in use it could not easily be
changed, but to use it is not to approve it as perfect.
(Ibid., pp. 152- 153)


Froude himself describes the situation.

Pious, ignorant men had regarded the text of
the Vulgate as sacred, and probably inspired.
Read it intelligently they could not, but they had
made the language into an idol, and they were
filled with horrified amazement when they found in page
after page that Erasmus had anticipated modern criticism,
correcting the text, introducing various readings,
and retranslating passages from the Greek into a new
version. He had altered a word from the Lord's Prayer.
Horror of horrors! He had changed the translation of the
mystic Logos from Verbum into Sermo, to make people
understand what Logos meant. (Ibid., p. 234)

Substitute "English" for "Latin" and "King James Version" for "Vulgate" in the above quotes, and one needs very little imagination to see how precisely these remarks, first of Erasmus, then More, and finally of Froude, address the present English Bible translation controversy, and fully answer the antagonists in our day who object to any and every kind of revision, correction or improvement of the King James Version, even where the Greek text behind it is devoid of adequate manuscript support, where printer's errors still persist, where the English disagrees with the meaning of the original, or the English has become shrouded in obscurity through 400 years of change in the English language. The doctrine that the King James Version, or any other translation tion of the Bible, is sacrosanct and inviolable expressly denies the infallibility and authority of the Bible in the original languages. This is a fundamental doctrinal error and destroys the very foundations of the Christian faith.

Human nature (I might have said human perversity) has not changed in half a millennium. The doctrine of the medieval Catholic priests and monks that the translation of the New Testament they had always had and used was perfect in every jot and tittle has merely been adopted by some ill-informed Baptists (and others) today and transferred to the English translation they have always had and used. Ignorance loves darkness and objects to change of every kind, but the truth never fears the light. The sound reasoning and solid arguments that refuted such folly in the sixteenth century are still valid today.[/i]

We live in a wonderful time where the translated Word of God is abundant and varied and accessible to all without one having to be a polyglot or Hebrew-Greek expert. We have the bountiful, eclectic labors of godly men who have down through the centuries diligently, academically, inspirationally and painstakingly presented to us in the English language a myriad of slants and insights and crystallized thoughts in to the expressed Word of God. We have all this at our fingertips, and God is all too accomodating in His wish to breathe revelatory life by His Spirit into any translation brought to us by honorable, Christ-centered motives. He has tremendously honored the AV1611, but He has also honored the MSG and Living Bible through the teachings of men like Poonen. I count it a wonderful thing to be in the midst of such a garden of delights, of such varied flavors and colors of God's Word.

If we were wise, we would take full advantage of all the resources available by the discretion of the Holy Spirit, and at once stop our entrenching dogmatism. It is fine to have a preference as far as a translation goes - I think we should have preferences, it is healthy - but having a preference to a certain spice or flavor should not result in an all-around neglection of and abstainment from the lesser varieties.

Well said brother. After spending some time yesterday reading through the site that photographs manuscripts to preserve them [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23199&forum=48#183389]NT scholar on discovery of giant trove of Bible manuscripts[/url] it again dawned on me just how incredibly privileged we are. The painstaking care that has kept the scriptures down through the ages and the vast amount of time, energy exhausted by even monks in monasteries hand copying the scriptures before the advent of the printing press ... it is both mind boggling and incredible to think on.

For something like this, which is yet another semi-tirade on an already beaten down to death subject is just something that causes the ears to close up and by comparison wonder at the sheer ingratitude and overlooking of what we in this day and age have at our disposal.

Just the care and esteem the photographers showed in their work was telling and telling of their character. There is a lot of information contained there as well if one was to spend some time going through the links. There is far more to all this than even has been attempted by many of those posts alluded to here of the past. By comparison we are talking about amateurs at best, most who probably don't know but a stitch of the original languages and worse, often just copied over other mens works to throw about into a finished translation combat.

We don't know the half of it.


S
sermonindex

If any be interested in taking some time to read what this link: http://www.therealchurch.com/articles/the_great_ecclesiastical_conspiracy.html leads to I'd be interested in any thoughts one might have about it. Please do not let the title discourage you from reading it. The authors build upon a foundation of historical facts, and then proceed to the translation of words and verses into English from the original Greek language. Again, any thoughts one might have after reading it I'd be interested in knowing. If a new thread would be recommended and necessary please let me know. Thanx

S
sermonindex

[b]This will be the last analysis of the Books of the New Testament and the Doctrine that is presented in them.

There are two basic texts that make up our Bibles of today:

There is a great deal of difference between these two texts-- Majority text, and the Minority text, between the King James Version (Majority text), and the Catholic Bible (Douay-Rheims & New Jerusalem) [the Minority text] and all of the newer versions of the Protestant Bible created since 1881.

The Majority Text inspired the Protestant Bible, that inspired the Protestant Reformation and the building of the Christian Church, as we knew it before 1900. The finest version of the Majority Text is the 1611 King James Bible. The Minority Text, that inspired the Catholic Church, and is the text used to create the Catholic Bible (Douay-Rheims & New Jerusalem) is also the text used to create all of the newer versions of the Protestant Bible, that have been produced since 1881. [/b]


[b]Grab your "favorite" version (NIV, NASV, Etc.) and let’s continue our comparison through the Gospels. [/b]

[b]JOHN[/b]
[b]1:18 "the only begotten Son" is changed to "The only begotten God."[/b] [b][color=990000]Such a phrase is foreign to Scripture. It accommodates the Arian teaching that Christ was a lesser deity created by God. It agrees with the teaching of ORIGEN that Christ was not equal with God in essence and nature. Sound Fundamental doctrine concerning Christ is that he is one person of the Triune God and that he proceeds from the Father by an eternal generation and reveals God to men as the Son of God. [/color][/b]

[b]1:27 "He it is ... who is preferred before me" is removed. [/b] [b][color=990000]This change removes the pre-eminence and pre-existence of Christ. John wanted us to see that though Christ came after him, he in reality preceded and ranked above him. [/color][/b]

[b]3:13 "which is in heaven" is omitted.[/b] [b][color=990000]This change affects the doctrine of the omnipresence of Christ. As man he was here on earth, as God he was able to be everywhere present. The omission is a corruption introduced by those who do not believe in the perfect and absolute Deity of Christ. [/color][/b]

[b]3:15 "should not perish" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000]This deletion removes the opposite of everlasting life, which is to perish. The doctrine of eternal damnation is weakened by the change. [/color][/b]

[b]3:16 "his only begotten Son" is changed to "the only begotten Son." [/b] [b][color=990000]The word HIS marks Jesus Christ out as God's own peculiar son in a relationship that no one else has. It marks him as of the same essence and nature. The Deity of Christ is involved and is thereby weakened (3:17 also changed). [/color][/b]

[b]4:42 "the Christ" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000]The purpose of John's gospel as given in 20:31 was to lead people to believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. That belief was to bring life to them. To omit it here is to deny the purpose of the inspired writer. [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]5:3b, 4 The statement regarding the moving of the water by an angel and subsequent miraculous healing is removed. Should this deletion be permitted there would be no sense to verse 7 since that verse presupposes 5:3b, 4. This is an effort to remove the miraculous from the Bible and thus accommodate humanism. [/color][/b]

[b]5:16 "and sought to slay him" is omitted. [/b] [b][color=990000]The Scripture teaches us that on many occasions they tried to kill Jesus but by supernatural power were kept from doing so (see John 18:6). He was omnipotent and there was no way they could take him until his hour was come. [/color][/b]

[b]6:47 "on me" is left out. [/b] [b][color=990000]The object of faith has been removed here. Everlasting life does not come to those who believe, but to those who believe on Christ. This is doctrinal error of the gravest sort and has been carried over into the NASV and NIV. [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]7:8 The little word "yet" is dropped and the result is that the Lord appears to lie to his brothers, since he did go up to the feast. There is a world of difference between "I go not up YET" and "I go not up." The sinlessness of Christ is an indispensable doctrine of the Christian faith and lying is sin. [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]7:53-8:11 The whole story of the woman taken in adultery is omitted. This is one of the most blessed portions of the Word of God. It is intended by God through the inspired writer to amplify what came before in 3:17. The law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (1:17). [/color][/b]

[b][color=990000]8:38 The words "my Father" and "your father" are intended to show the difference between his father and their father, who was Satan. By removing the word "my" and "your" there is a deliberate attempt to remove the offence and cater to the false dream of the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. [/color][/b]

[b]8:39 "If ye were Abraham's children" is changed to "if ye are Abraham's children." [/b] [b][color=990000]The Lord intended them to see that they were not Abraham's children at all. The change gives us to see that they were Abraham's children and therefore they ought to act like it. This is pure humanism and contrary to sound doctrine. [/color][/b]

[b]9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me" is changed to "We must work the works of him that sent us." [/b] [b][color=990000]The uniqueness of Christ as the Sent One of the Father is destroyed and he is placed equally with the disciples as sent from God to do the work of God. This is an attack on the Person and Work of Christ and it exalts humanism. Jesus was sent by the Father and the disciples were sent by Jesus, "as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you." [/color][/b]

[b]9:35 "the Son of God" is changed to "the Son of man."[/b] [b][color=990000]The thing to be believed in John's gospel is that Jesus is the Son of God (20:31). The change by the minority texts is not warranted. [/color][/b]

[b]10:38 "that ye may know, and believe" is changed to "that ye may know, and understand."[/b] [b][color=990000]The union of Christ and the Father within the Godhead is that which we are to believe and rely upon for the certainty of our salvation. To understand the union is beyond human comprehension and if it could be understood, that would still not be the equivalent of salvation. [/color][/b]

[b]11:41 "where the dead was laid" is removed.[/b] [b][color=990000]God intends that we should know that this was the very same place where Lazarus was laid. This is an attempt to cloud the evident miracle which followed. (see also 12:2 where "which had been dead" is also removed). [/color][/b]


[b][color=000066]Hebrews tells us that: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."[/color][/b]

[b]I have posted God's Word from Two Versions, the Majority text and the Minority text. Is there any difference in regards to Doctrine between them? You will have to judge that for yourself. [/b]


Sincerely,


Walter

H
Hosiah

thanks for website, I skimmed it and this line stuck to me:

"Our paradigm, or model as it is often called, is the American church shrouded in luxury, ease, programs, and entertainment".

there's truth in that statement, but I feel this "ease" is coming to an end.

I'm gaining great fruit reading through my ESV Bible. But I have KJV, NKJV, NIV, and NASB translations, and have been blessed to recieve much fruit and blessing from reading all these translations.

Praise God we live in a country where a follower of Jesus can buy any Bible they want and not get thrown in prison for even possessing a single Bible. Praise His Holy Name!

Hosiah

S
sermonindex

Waltern, if I could only have one Bible translation, it would be the KJV. I will admit that you have a valid point and you have presented it quiet well to those who want to hear. Here are some old threads if you want to review some prior discussions on this subject to see where you stand or who you are talking to.

Bless you brother

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20007&forum=34

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6323&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14397&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6893&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19024&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7968&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21682&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19041&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9647&forum=35

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16142&forum=35


P
PaulWest

The finest version of the Majority Text is the 1611 King James Bible.

The statement above is wholly your opinion (which, by the way, I am inclined to agree with), but nevertheless the product of subjectivity and personal conviction. You have no way of proving "superiority" other than your affinity for the translators' prose. Surely, there are more literal, accurate and politically-unbiased translations of the Stephens 1550 (or Textus Receptus), such as Young's and any standard Greek-English interlinear of the TR manuscript. Brother, if you are going to make unfounded and circular absolutes, at least show others the courtesy of including, "I believe" before making them. May the Lord continue to bless your study of His incomparable Word.

Brother Paul

L
LoveHim

thank you for the link wisevirgin.. a very good read if you have the time.

good stuff to ponder and meditate upon.

phil

L
LoveHim

here is some of what i liked from that article:

TRUE LEADERSHIP

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: exactly like the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mt.20:25-28)

"Elders should be examples, not dictators. They should be walking out in front of the flock, not driving them from behind. They should not treat the flock as if it belonged to them.

Horizontal leadership is going on ahead, following the captain of our salvation, out in front of the flock, leading or guiding, not driving them from behind. Vertical leadership is one person presiding over another.

Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 11:4)

Even God himself will not violate the wills of men. He is set to win them by love. "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son…" This shows the depth of God's commitment and love toward us. Upon this backdrop, how is it that men, purporting to be leaders in Christ's church, should do spite to the very Spirit of Christ by resorting to tyrannical means to secure obedience?

Obedience for any other reason than love is unacceptable to God.

Historically, the church has looked nothing like the serving messiah. It has traded the servant's towel, for clerical robe and is above the washing of feet, as kneeling has become so far beneath the priestly and kingly status of its clergy. How far we have fallen from the divine standard only God fully appreciates.

Here is the hireling's test. If you can pass it, you may not be a hireling. Care for the sheep at no expense to the sheep. Don't receive a wage; do it for nothing. Go beyond that and serve Christ's sheep at your own expense. Do this for three years and you will have passed the hireling's test. You will be walking in the footsteps of greatness, the footsteps of the ONE who came to serve and lay down His life for His sheep.

The model of leadership in the ekklesia is not the CEO but the household slave.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8 RSV)

The model for Christian leadership in America today is not the entrepreneur, not the CEO - it is the suffering servant, Jesus Christ."

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Walter

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I have just finished reading an excellent book by Dr. Thomas Holland that provides clarification between the Authorized Text (Received Text, Majority Text) and the Minority text. The Book is titled[b] “Crowned with Glory”[/b] and I highly recommend it to all believers.


http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewwork.asp?id=2276


Crowned With Glory is aptly subtitled "The Bible from Ancient Text to Authorized Version." Dr. Holland examines the transmission of the Bible from the first century on down to our contemporary age of modern English. The reader will quickly learn of the differences between various Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. The chapter Tampering With Texts powerfully demonstrates the influences early heresies such as Gnosticism (the teaching that Jesus Christ was a created god) have had on the Alexandrian Greek manuscripts which are the foundation of modern Bible versions. These are not simply accusations made, but are carefully considered and demonstrated with historical evidence. In contrast, the chapter [b]Testimony Through Time[/b] makes a strong case for the faithfulness of the Received Text which underlies the King James Bible's new testament. Both texts are considered in a scholarly manner but in light of Biblical Preservation.

The chapter [b]Forging the Metal[/b] is a chronology of English and other language Bible translations leading up to the King James (Authorized) Version of 1611.[b] The chapter The English Jewel discusses Authorized Version in depth, giving solid historical information while debunking false conceptions about subjects such as the Cum Privilegio, Apocrypha, so-called revisions, etc.[/b]

The chapter [b]Oracle of the Jews[/b] explains the importance of understanding that the Bible is a Jewish Book and why it is relevant to the issue at hand.[b] The chapter Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls discusses the Dead Sea Scrolls and their impact on our knowledge of the history of the Bible.[/b]

Together,the chapters [b]Textual Considerations, Translational Considerations, and Deliberating the Arguments[/b] make a very strong case for the King James Bible against the modern versions. Controversial texts such as John 1:18, Acts 5:30, Acts 12:4, Hebrews 10:23, 1John 5:7, and more are dealt with succinctly. An appendix is also devoted to the internal evidence of the last twelve verses of Mark as it exists in the Received Text and the King James Bible.

[b]Arguments presented by modern textual critics in support of the Alexandrian texts are easily defeated and their inconsistency exposed.[/b]

[b]The appendixes of Crowned With Glory are a nice bonus.[/b] In addition to the aforementioned appendix on Mark 16:9-20, Dr. Holland has provided a list of translators of the Authorized Version and their governing rules,[b] a brief section on textual evidence (a listing of many manuscripts and their dating used for textual support), a glossary, Scripture and subject indexes, and comprehensive bibliography.[/b]

[b]The footnotes in this book frequently offer valuable information relevant to the topics discussed. For example, a footnote in the section on Origen gives a nice nugget of information: "...One of the subscriptions in Codex Sinaiticus states, 'Taken and corrected according to the Hexapla of Origen. Antonious Collated: I, Pamphilus, corrected.' Pamphilus, along with Eusebius, was a disciple of Origen. Therefore, we see the influence Origen had on Codex Sinaiticus as stated in a footnote of that Codex." Since Sinaiticus is usually referred to as one of the "older and better" manuscripts in defense of the Alexandrian text, it is interesting to see how the influence of a heretic like Origen directly affected such a manuscript.[/b]

As a whole, this book is an excellent discussion of the core issues of this controversial subject. If you are seeking an easy yet informative introduction to the Bible's history of preservation and translation, this book should be your first choice. If you are moderately familiar with the subject and seek further understanding of the Biblical Preservationist perspective, this book is for you. If you are a Critical Text supporter, this book is sure to challenge your preconceptions of the Bible and its history, and just might make you think twice.

[b]Excerpt
There are a myriad of books available today that analyze, criticize, and debate the issues of biblical preservation and textual criticism. After all, there is much to explore in this vital area of Christianity. It has been nearly two thousand years since the completion of the New Testament. Since then, the Bible has been copied over and over by hand, translated into other languages, and massively produced in the electronic age. From our perspective in the twenty-first century, it is natural to inquire if what was given originally has passed through time unaltered. Is it possible that changes were made, inadvertently or intentionally, to some or part of the text over the centuries? Could it be that some of the original words have been lost during this long process of transmission, or have they been preserved so that we have exactly what was originally penned? Have modern discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrolls or ancient manuscripts shed any light on these questions? Can we fully trust any translation of Scripture, or must we conclude that all are faulty?[/b]

[b][color=0000CC]Crowned With Glory seeks to address these and other questions relating to the Bible and its transmission over time. Its goal is to scholastically and scripturally present textual and historical evidence while remaining true to the premise that God has provided for us today the words he faithfully gave us in the beginning. It will examine the many textual differences found among manuscripts of the Old and New Testaments and attempt to explain why some variants have permeated these manuscripts. Crowned With Glory will also discuss ancient and current translations of Scripture, providing analytical and biblical reasoning for the readings found in the traditional texts.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

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The phrase "God forbid" occurs 24 times in the King James Version. It is found nine times in the Old Testament: Genesis 44:7, Genesis 44:17, Joshua 22:29, Joshua 24:16, 1 Samuel 12:23, 1 Samuel 14:45, 1 Samuel 20:2, 1 Chronicles 11:19, and Job 27:5. It is found fifteen times in the New Testament: Luke 20:16, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:6, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:2, Romans 6:15, Romans 7:7, Romans 7:13, Romans 9:14, Romans 11:1, Romans 11:11; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Galatians 2:17, Galatians 3:21, and Galatians 6:14.

Get out your Strong's Concordance and look up the word "God" and then look for the aforementioned passages under the word "God." When you find these passages, what is the Strong's number for the word "God" in each of these passages? In all the Old Testament passages but one, you will find NO NUMBER because the Hebrew word for "God" is NOT IN THE ORIGINAL if you will but look in the original Hebrew text. And in the New Testament passages there is not one Strong's number, but TWO, and NEITHER are the Greek word for "God." The word "God" is NOT IN THE ORIGINALif you will but look in the original Greek text. The King James translators inserted the word "God" where the Holy Spirit did not inspire the original authors to write God's name.

The Hebrew word behind the KJV's "God forbid" is chaliylah, which literally means "far be it from." Thus, for example, a literal translation of Genesis 44:7b is "Far be it from your servants to do according to this word," in contrast to the KJV's dynamic equivalence: "God forbid that thy servants should do according to this thing." The two Greek words behind the KJV's "God forbid" are me genoito. The negative participle me means "none," "never," "not," "nor," "neither," etc. The verb ginomai (genoito being a form of the verb ginomai) means "to be," "to be caused to be," "to come to pass," "to happen," "to be performed." So me genoito literally means "it will never be,""it will not be," "may it never be," "may it not be," "let it never be," or "let it not be." It is the strongest of negations. Thus, for example, a literal translation of Galatians 6:14a is "But may it never be for me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ," in contrast to
the KJV's dynamic equivalence: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

There is another set of passages in which the King James Version translators inserted God's name where it is not in the original. This is in the phrases "God save the king" and "God save king [king's name]" in 1 Samuel 10:24; 2 Samuel 16:16; 1 Kings 1:25,1 Kings 1:34, 1 Kings 1:39, 2 Kings 11:12; and 2 Chronicles 23:11. Again, look in Strong's Concordance under the word "God" and look up these passages. You will find that there is no Strong's number because the word "God" does not exist in these passages in the original Hebrew. The Hebrew words behind the KJV's "God save the king" are chayah melek. The verb chayah means "to let live," "to keep alive," "to preserve alive." The noun melek means "king." So chayah melek literally means "may the king live" or "let the king live." Thus, for example, a literal translation of 1 Samuel 10:24b is "And all the people shouted and said, May the king live," in contrast to the KJV's: "And all the people shouted, and
said, God save the king."

The translators inserted God's holy name where the Holy Spirit DID NOT put God's name. God said (even in KJV English), "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain" (Exodus 20:7). This includes inserting the holy name of God into a passage of His Word where He did not put it, and it includes using the holy name of God in common, vulgar colloquialisms. And because there is no italicization, this taking of God's name in vain is seen as biblical adherence to the original Hebrew and Greek, and people are taking God's name in vain thinking that they are speaking the Word of God. The KJV-Only advocates will go after the "modern versions" regarding the deity of Christ and other passages about God, but they will not repudiate the passages in their own version that take God's name in vain.

We repudiate and condemn the KJV translation of these phrases. They are evil and repugnant. They have no place in God's Holy Word. (Note also the phrase "God speed," which is another colloquialism found twice in the KJV's translation of 2 John 10-11 - another passage in which God's name is inserted with no basis in the original Greek and is not italicized. This, too, has no place in God's Word.)
KJV only advocate D.A. Waite writes in "Defects in the New American Standard Version":

"THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION ADDS VARIOUS THINGS ... The Bible prohibits any ADDING to the Words of God ... THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION CHANGES VARIOUS THINGS ... THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION OMITS VARIOUS THINGS ... THE NEW AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION MAKES REPEATED USE OF PARAPHRASE ... rather than giving us a grammatically equivalent translation ... This is NOT FAITHFULNESS IN TRANSLATION. It is NOT 'ADHERING AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE TO THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES.' It does NOT reflect 'THE ROCK OF BIBLICAL HONESTY.' It is NOT 'TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL HEBREW AND GREEK.' It is It is NOT ACCURACY IN TRANSLATION. It is NOT RELIABILITY IN TRANSLATION. It is DIABOLICAL DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCY!!" (pp. 24-33)

"The NASV Is Not Based Exclusively On Proper Translation TECHNIQUES. ... This technique concentrates on ideas and general concepts rather than on the actual WORDS of God." (pp. 34-35)


Acts 12:4. The Greek word translated "Easter" in this passage is pascha. The Greek word pascha is found 29 times in the New Testament, and in 28 of those 29 times, it is correctly translated "passover." The Acts 12:4 translation is an obvious error and gives unwarranted legitimacy to the unholy celebration of Easter, which has its origins in the pagan Ahsteroth/Asherah/Astarte/Ishtar/ Eostre sexual fertility festivals that were "Christianized" by the Roman Catholic whore church. Easter has no place in the Bible and no textual support. The KJV-Only advocates who have tried to explain why "Easter" is a legitimate translation have engaged in the exact same reasoning they claim to eschew - that the translators were INTERPRETING what the word pascha should mean here rather than TRANSLATING. It turns out that this error originated with Tyndale, who translated pascha as "ester" or "Easter" fourteen times, as "esterlambe" eleven times, and "esterfest" one time.
The Great Bible of 1539 retained "Ester" or "Easter" in fifteen places, and the KJV translators eliminated all references to Easter except for the Acts 12:4 passage (T.H. Brown, The Use of "Easter" in Acts 12:4, in the Quarterly Record, Issue #540, pp.12-14)

Another glaring inconsistency in the KJV is its use of the personal pronoun that refers to the Holy Spirit. In four passages (John 1:32, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:26, 1 Peter 1:11), the Holy Spirit is referred to as "itself" or "it" rather than "himself" or "him." The New World Translation (of the Jehovah's Witnesses) uses "it" and "itself" to refer to the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't the KJV-Only advocates jump on this if it were in the "modern translations"?

Other errors in the KJV include the word "mules" instead of "hot springs" in Genesis 36:24; "unicorn" (a pagan mythical creature that originated in the Babylonian mystery religions) instead of "wild ox" in Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Job 39:9, Job 39:10, Psalm 29:6, and Psalm 92:10; "nephews" instead of "grandsons" in Judges 12:14 and 1 Timothy 5:4; "the judge" instead of "God" in 1 Samuel 2:25; "and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price" instead of "and from Kue; the king's merchants received them from Kue at a price" in 1 Kings 10:28; "voice of the turtle" instead of "voice of the turtledove" in Song of Solomon 2:12; "all that make sluices and ponds for fish" instead of "all who make wages shall be sad of soul" in Isaiah 19:10; "that prepare a table for that troop and furnish the drink offering unto that number" instead of "who array a table for Fortune, and who fill mixed wine for Fate" in Isaiah 65:11; "years" (a
dynamic translation) instead of "days" in Amos 4:4; "the master and the scholar" instead of "he waking and answering" in Malachi 2:12; "she was found with child" (a dynamic translation) instead of "she was found pregnant in womb" in Matthew 1:18; "cast the same in his teeth" (a dynamic translation) instead of "defamed him, saying the same" in Matthew 27:44; and "The wind bloweth where it listeth" instead of "The Spirit breathes where he desires" in John 3:8.

For further errors, mistranslations and paraphrases found in the KJV read "The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy" which also details some of the history behind the translation and translators.
The best English Bible translation is the Literal Version (LITV), which is based on the same Hebrew and Greek manuscripts as the KJV but is more literal than the KJV and avoids the errors of the KJV (although it is not an inerrant translation).
(Marc)

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Wisevirgin posted:
Another glaring inconsistency in the KJV is its use of the personal pronoun that refers to the Holy Spirit. In four passages (John 1:32, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:26, 1 Peter 1:11), the Holy Spirit is referred to as "itself" or "it" rather than "himself" or "him." The New World Translation (of the Jehovah's Witnesses) uses "it" and "itself" to refer to the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't the KJV-Only advocates jump on this if it were in the "modern translations"?

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Walter replies to Wisevirgin:

The verses in the King James Bible, that relate to your post above, are:
John 1: 32. “ And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.” KJV

Romans 8:16. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” KJV

Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” KJV

1 Peter 1:11 “ Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” KJV


[b][color=993300]What you have posted Wisevirgin is the work of Douglas Kutilek, the creator of the KJVONLY.ORG website. The purpose of his site is to only attack the King James Bible.[/color][/b]

Mr. Kutilek's objections to the use of "it" or "itself" in referring to the Holy Ghost are both hypocritical and ignorant. Hypocritical because there are many versions, including the modern ones, that use "itself" in either the very same verses or in the same manner. And ignorant because apparently Mr. Kutilek does not know the proper use of the English language.

The four verses in the KJV that he criticizes (shown above) are: John 1:32; Romans 8:16, 26 and I Peter 1:11. We will examine these verses with other translations and then look at examples in the NKJV, NIV and NAS versions.

However, first, we shall look at how our English dictionaries define the use of the words "it" and "itself". The Random House Webster¹s College Dictionary of 1999 lists under the second definition of "itself" - "used to represent a PERSON or animal understood, previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context." Examples given are: "Who is it? It is John. " "Did you see the baby? Yes, isn¹t it cute." " the cat likes to sun itself in the window."

The Websters 1967 Collegiate Dictionary defines "it" as "a PERSON or animal whose gender is unknown or disregarded." The Father and the Son are clearly masculine, but the Spirit is sometimes refered to as masculine and sometimes as neuter, not because He is neuter, but rather because the gender is disregarded or not taken into account in that particular context.
The first verse is John 1:32 . And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending like a dove, and IT abode upon him."

Other Bible versions that agree with the KJB in their use of "it" are Tyndales first edition, the Geneva Bible of 1599 and 1602, the Bishop¹s Bible, Darby, the ASV of 1901, the Douay of 1950, Henry Alford¹s translation, Youngs, the English Revised Version of 1881, the 21st Century KJV, Williams New Testament 1937, Lamsa Translation 1933, Daniel Websters Bible translation 1833, the 20th Century New Testament, Weymouth translation, the RSV and the NRSV of 1989.

[b][color=660000]So you can see the KJB is not alone in its proper understanding of the English language. It is Mr. Kutilek that is in error[/color][/b]

The second verse is Romans 8:16 "The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
[b]Versions that agree with the KJV are the 21st Century KJB, Alford¹s, Bishop¹s Bible, Darby, Websters and the NRSV.[/b]

The third verse is Romans 8:26 "But the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

[b]Again the 21st Century KJB, Alford¹s translation, The Bishop¹s Bible, Darby, Websters and the Geneva Bible of 1599 and 1602 agree with the KJB.[/b]

The fourth verse is I Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when IT testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ , and the glory that should follow."
[b]Versions that have "it" here are Alfords, the Revised Version of 1881, the ASV of 1901, Websters, Berkeley, Basic Bible in English and the NRSV of 1989.[/b]

[b][color=660000]So we see that many Bible versions which both predate and follow the KJB have used it and itself to refer to the Spirit of God. This is perfectly acceptable English. Mr. Kutilek apparently is unaware of this.[/color][/b]

The NASB and NIV have two interesting and parallel verses in the New Testament. Both Matthew 12:45 and Luke 11:26 speak of a "spirit that takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than ITSELF". Here is a case of a spiritual entity that can see, hear, speak and has a personality, yet the gender is disregarded in the NAS and NIV, and is referred to as "itself". This spirit was not an inanimate object, but rather a spiritual being with a distinct personality. The same thing occurs in the KJB, NKJV, NIV and NASB in Luke 8:29 "For he had commanded the unclean SPIRIT to come out of the man. For oftentimes IT had caught him."
Here again is a spirit that talks, reasons, hears and knows that Jesus is the Son of God and that torment awaits him. This is clearly a personality and yet all the above mentioned versions refer to him as an "it". The gender is disregarded, and this is perfectly acceptable English.

All of the modern versions, like the NKJV, NIV and NAS use "itself" when referring to both animals and groups of people. The NKJV has the donkey itself -Hosea 8:9, the goat itself- Lev. 16:22; Israel itself -Judges 7:2; Numbers 23:9 speaks of "a people dwelling alone, not reckoning itself among the nations, and Zech. 12:12 "the family of the house of David by itself."

All Bible versions at times speak of Jesus Christ as being a thing or something neuter. In Matthew 1:20 the angel of the Lord says to Joseph: "fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for THAT WHICH is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Notice the angel does not say "he", but "that which",: it is neuter both in Greek and in English. In Luke 1:35 the angel says to Mary "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." That holy thing is neuter, yet we all know that Jesus Christ is a person, in fact, God manifest in the flesh.

The book of I John opens with a reference to Jesus Christ, yet it refers to Him as a thing. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life." Yet Christ is not a thing, but a person. In I John 5:4 we are told: "WHATSOEVER is born of God overcometh the world." This is a neuter. Are we to assume that everyone who is born of God is a thing?

[b][color=660000]Mr. Kutilek's objections to the KJB, upon further analysis, are seen to be unfounded and based on ignorance. God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He has revealed Himself to us in His inspired words, and He has faithfully kept them for us today in the English language of the King James Bible. Don't let some self important, unbelieving scholar try to take them away from you.

Conclusion:

wisevirgin, before taking the work of someone else, and cutting and pasting it to try and prove a point, FIRST verify it’s accuracy. By not doing so, you are painted with the same brush as the one who made the error
[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


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Waltern,I have no clue who Douglas Kutilek is nor have I ever visited his site KJVONLY.ORG. Your accusations are unfounded and unnecessary. Also, you have not commented upon the LITV by Green,or the glaring errors of the KJV exposed in the book The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy.

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wisevirgin wrote:
Waltern,I have no clue who Douglas Kutilek is nor have I ever visited his site KJVONLY.ORG. Your accusations are unfounded and unnecessary. Also, you have not commented upon the LITV by Green,or the glaring errors of the KJV exposed in the book The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy.

[b]Walter replies:[/b]

wisevirgin’s previous post:
Another glaring inconsistency in the KJV is its use of the personal pronoun that refers to the Holy Spirit. In four passages (John 1:32, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:26, 1 Peter 1:11), the Holy Spirit is referred to as "itself" or "it" rather than "himself" or "him." The New World Translation (of the Jehovah's Witnesses) uses "it" and "itself" to refer to the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't the KJV-Only advocates jump on this if it were in the "modern translations"?


[b]Douglas Kutilek states on his website:[/b]

"Any honest evaluation of the King James Version leads to the conclusion that it has numerous defects as a translation, some major, most minor. But of these defects, among the most serious, quite probably the worst of the lot, is its occasional use of the English pronoun "it" to refer to the Holy Spirit." He also states: "I will plainly state my opinion on the matter: I think that here the KJV comes dangerously close to blasphemy, if it does not in fact actually wander into it." He closes his article with these words. "Those who imagine that the KJV...is faultless and error-free are compelled to address the matter."

[b]David Kutilek’s also states the following on his website:[/b]

In this regard--that is, calling the Holy Spirit "it" four times instead of "he" "or "himself"--the KJV is paralleled (to my knowledge) in English Bible versions currently in use only in the Jehovah's Witnesses' corrupt New World Translation, a translation deliberately falsified to exclude all references to the Deity of both Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Jehovah's Witness translation agrees exactly with the KJV in calling the Holy Spirit "it" in all four passages.


[b]Surely sounds like plagarism to me, wisevirgin. Especially since what Kutilek posted is gramatically inaccurate, and blatantly false, and his ideas and words mirror yours.[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

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I repeat...Your accusations are unfounded and unnecessary. Also, you have not commented upon the LITV by Green,or the glaring errors of the KJV exposed in the book The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy.
Are you prepared to do so or no?

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wisevirgin wrote:
The phrase "God forbid" occurs 24 times in the King James Version. It is found nine times in the Old Testament: Genesis 44:7, Genesis 44:17, Joshua 22:29, Joshua 24:16, 1 Samuel 12:23, 1 Samuel 14:45, 1 Samuel 20:2, 1 Chronicles 11:19, and Job 27:5. It is found fifteen times in the New Testament: Luke 20:16, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:6, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:2, Romans 6:15, Romans 7:7, Romans 7:13, Romans 9:14, Romans 11:1, Romans 11:11; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Galatians 2:17, Galatians 3:21, and Galatians 6:14.

Get out your Strong's Concordance and look up the word "God" and then look for the aforementioned passages under the word "God." When you find these passages, what is the Strong's number for the word "God" in each of these passages? In all the Old Testament passages but one, you will find NO NUMBER because the Hebrew word for "God" is NOT IN THE ORIGINAL if you will but look in the original Hebrew text. And in the New Testament passages there is not one Strong's number, but TWO, and NEITHER are the Greek word for "God." The word "God" is NOT IN THE ORIGINALif you will but look in the original Greek text. The King James translators inserted the word "God" where the Holy Spirit did not inspire the original authors to write God's name.

The Hebrew word behind the KJV's "God forbid" is chaliylah, which literally means "far be it from." Thus, for example, a literal translation of Genesis 44:7b is "Far be it from your servants to do according to this word," in contrast to the KJV's dynamic equivalence: "God forbid that thy servants should do according to this thing." The two Greek words behind the KJV's "God forbid" are me genoito. The negative participle means "none," "never," "not," "nor,"
"neither," etc. The verb ginomai (genoito being a form of the verb ginomai) means "to be," "to be caused to be," "to come to pass," "to happen," "to be performed." So me genoito literally means "it will never be,""it will not be," "may it never be," "may it not be," "let it never be," or "let it not be." It is the strongest of negations. Thus, for example, a literal translation of Galatians 6:14a is "But may it never be for me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ," in contrast to
the KJV's dynamic equivalence: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

(Marc)

Walter responds

Why should I be surprised? You refuse to respond to what I have posted, and instead ask me to address the remainder of your initial post.

Also, you rename the subject matter "The Trampoline" in your first post, and then "Mirror! Mirror!" in the second post, instead of "What does yours say?".

[b]I will go forward and address several points in your initial post. However, based upon what has just transpired with your last two posts, I do not believe that you have any interest in my response, or that you will even read it, or even respond to it point by point by Bible prooftext.[/b]

[b]"God Forbid"[/b]
Some people allege that the KJB translators used dynamic equivalence in their expression "God forbid." Even if it were the case (and I do not accept that it is), it is found only fourteen times in the New Testament: Ro. 3:4,6,31; 6:2,15; 7:7,13; 9:14; 11:1,11; 1 Co. 6:15; Ga. 2:17; 3:21; 6:14. It is a rendering of "mE genoito" which is "may it not be" or "let it not be." This is perfect 1611 parlance for "God forbid." It was quite literal in 1611. If you don't believe it, consult the Oxford English Dictionary which gives you the meaning of "God forbid" in 1611. It is found only seven times in the O.T.: Ge. 44:7,17; Jos. 22:29; 24:16; 1 Sa. 12:23; 1 Ch. 11:19; Job 27:5. It is a rendering of "chalal" which is "may it be something profane" or "may it be far from me." Again, "God forbid" is a perfect 1611- parlance for the Hebrew words used.

[b]"God Save the King"[/b]
Another favorite allegation of dynamic equivalency in the KJV is the expression "God save the king." Even if it were the case (and I do not accept that it is), it is only found four times in the O.T.: 1 Sa. 10:24; 2 Sa. 16:16; 2 Ki. 11:12; 2 Ch. 23:11. It means "may the king live long" or "may the king be preserved or safe." Well, if the king lives long, he is "saved" is he not? [Editor: The term "salvation" was used in a much broader sense in past centuries.] So why not let the 1611- parlance of "God save the king" alone? The fact is that such examples are very, very few in the KJV, whereas they abound in the modern versions and perversions because in those, the dynamic equivalent technique is the rule rather than the exception.

[b]The King James Bible's verbal and formal equivalence.[/b]
The KJV basically uses the technique of verbal equivalence and formal equivalence. Verbal equivalence means that the very words, wherever possible, are brought over from Hebrew into English and from Greek into English. The KJV also uses the technique of formal equivalence, that is, the translators brought over, wherever possible, the very forms of the Hebrew and Greek words into English. They didn't transform the grammar. They didn't take a noun and make a verb out of it. They brought a verb into a verb and a noun into a noun wherever possible. They were skilled craftsmen who had a proper concept of what "translation" really is. It comes from translatus which in turn comes from two Latin words, trans ("across") and latus which is the past participle of fero ("to carry"). It means to "carry across" from one place to another, or from one language to another. It does not seek to CHANGE, or to ADD, or to SUBTRACT!

Let me illustrate "translation." If I have my wife's purse and I want to translate it from one side of the church to the other, I would simply pick it up, take it across the aisle, and put it on the other side of the church. I wouldn't leave any of it behind, even though there may be some things in it I wouldn't want to take over. I wouldn't add anything to it, and I wouldn't drop any of it in the center aisle. Now that's translation, translatus. That's what the KJV translators did. They just simply took the Hebrew words and put them into English. They picked up the Greek words and put them into English. That's translation. That's the superior technique.

[b]The modern versions' use of DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE. [/b]I have a computer print-out research of three of these modern versions--the New King James, the New American Standard, and the New International. When compared to the Hebrew and Greek texts, I found that the New King James Version had over 2,000 examples of dynamic equivalency, that is, adding to, subtracting from, or changing the Words of God. In a similar study of the New American Standard Version, I found over 4,000 such examples. In a similar study of the New International Version I found over 6,653 such examples.

[b][color=0000FF]What is meant by dynamic equivalency? "Dynamic" means "moving or changing." [/color][/b] [b][color=990000]"Equivalence" means "the same or unchanging." [/b]You can't have it both ways! It is either changing or unchanging. Those who use this erroneous technique in the various "translations/paraphrases" think it's a great technique. The bottom line for such a technique is that it gives a human being the right to ADD to God's Words (which is sin), to SUBTRACT from God's Words (which is sin), or to CHANGE God's Words (which is sin). God pronounces the strongest possible CURSE on anyone who dares to do any of those three things to God's Words! Those who use this false technique are really paraphrasing rather than translating. Paraphrase comes from two Greek words, para ("along side or beside") and phrasis ("a word or phrase"). It means to use a word or phrase that is along side of the real meaning. It is to state something in other words. We should seek, as the KJV translators sought, to put into English the exact and accurate meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Words of God rather than to give something that is "beside" or "along side of" the word or phrase.[/color]

Sincerely,

Walter

S
sermonindex


wisevirgin wrote:
[b]
Acts 12:4. The Greek word translated "Easter" in this passage is pascha. The Greek word pascha is found 29 times in the New Testament, and in 28 of those 29 times, it is correctly translated "passover." The Acts 12:4 translation is an obvious error and gives unwarranted legitimacy to the unholy celebration of Easter, which has its origins in the pagan Ahsteroth/Asherah/Astarte/Ishtar/ Eostre sexual fertility festivals that were "Christianized" by the Roman Catholic whore church. Easter has no place in the Bible and no textual support.[/b]
The KJV-Only advocates who have tried to explain why "Easter" is a legitimate translation have engaged in the exact same reasoning they claim to eschew - that the translators were INTERPRETING what the word pascha should mean here rather than TRANSLATING. It turns out that this error originated with Tyndale, who translated pascha as "ester" or "Easter" fourteen times, as "esterlambe" eleven times, and "esterfest" one time.
The Great Bible of 1539 retained "Ester" or "Easter" in fifteen places, and the KJV translators eliminated all references to Easter except for the Acts 12:4 passage (T.H. Brown, The Use of "Easter" in Acts 12:4, in the Quarterly Record, Issue #540, pp.12-14)

(Marc)

Walter responds to wisevirgin:

I continue to go forward and address other points in your initial post.

[b]"Easter" is Not a Mistranslation in the King James Bible (the Majority Text), also referred to as the "Authorized Version". Passover is a mistranslation in all of the newer Bibles produced since 1881 that have relied on the MINORITY TEXT, the same text that created the Catholic Bible.[/b]

What Was Easter Originally?

The word " Easter" is found one time in the entire authorized King James Bible:
"Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." (Acts 12:1-4)

QUESTION: Isn't "Easter" in Acts 12:4 a mistranslation of the word "pascha" and should it be translated as "passover"?

ANSWER: No, "pascha" is properly translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 as the following explanation will show.

EXPLANATION: The Greek word which is translated "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is the word "pascha". This word appears twenty-nine times in the New Testament. Twenty-eight of those times the word is rendered "Passover" in reference to the night when the Lord passed over Egypt and killed all the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12), thus setting Israel free from four hundred years of bondage.

[b]The many opponents (wisevirgin included) to the concept of having a [size=x-small]Perfect Bible[/size] have made much of this translation of "pascha".[/b]

[b]To explain this we go to Acts chapter 12.[/b] Herod had just beheaded James, it made the Jews happy. Now Herod wanted to kill Peter also, but he wanted to wait until after "Easter" according to the King James Bible. Notice that the NIV bible has the word "Passover" instead of "Easter." I will prove to you from the King James Bible that "Easter" is in fact, the proper word to use.

The word "Easter" here, does NOT refer to " Easter" as we know it nor does it refer to the " Passover" as it is wrongly translated in other Bible versions.

Though many Christians celebrate "Easter" in remembrance of the resurrection, Easter was originally a pagan festival (etymology of your dictionary should confirm this), which is what Acts 12:4 refers to and not the Passover. We will determine this by looking at the passage.
The Webster's New World Dictionary gives the following etymology (origin and development of a word), for the word "Easter":
originally, name of pagan vernal [spring time] festival ALMOST COINCIDENT in date with paschal [Passover] festival of the church,
--Eastre, dawn goddess --Austro, dawn
In other words, Easter was originally a pagan festival celebrated in the spring time.

[b]"Easter" is ONLY Translated Correctly in the King James Bible.[/b]

The word, "Easter" has been incorrectly translated "Passover" in all Bible versions except for the authorized King James Bible. How do I know this? The Bible shows it. Notice again in the passage of Acts 12:1-4, King Herod killed James. When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he also took Peter. Notice that Herod took Peter DURING the DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD and was going to bring him forth to the people AFTER Easter.

"In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." (Leviticus 23:5,6)
So we learn from this Scripture that the day of Passover fell on the 14th day of the first month, and then the "FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD" began upon the 15th day of the first month.
The days of unleavened bread came AFTER Passover! Acts 12:3 tells us that Peter was apprehended DURING the "days of unleavened bread." This means that the day of Passover had ALREADY occurred. "Easter" could not have been Passover, because Passover occurred BEFORE the days of unleavened bread. Passover had come and gone. Herod decided to bring Peter forth AFTER Easter. This is the sequence:
[b]
1. PASSOVER
2. DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD
3. EASTER [/b]

Let's look at it from the book of Numbers as well:
Passover only comes once a year on one day, the 14th of Abib ( Num 28:16). After the Passover comes the days of unleavened bread (Numbers 28:17), extending from the fifteenth day through the twentieth day of Abib. So when Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (Acts 12:3), Passover had come and gone! The Bible says that Herod was going to bring him forth AFTER Easter ( which had not come yet).

When the King James Bible says " EASTER" in Acts 12:4, it is correct; when the other versions say " PASSOVER" in Acts 12:4, they are incorrect. " Easter" in this passage is referring to a pagan festival (remember the etymology teaches that the pagan " Easter" is almost coincident with paschal (Passover)... [b][color=CC0000]Thus we see that it was God's providence which LED the Spirit-filled translators of King James Bible to CORRECTLY translate "pascha" as "Easter". It most certainly did not refer to the Jewish passover. In fact, to change it to "passover" would confuse the reader and make the truth of the situation unclear.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

:-)

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