Holy Laughter or Strong Delusion

I watched the video again. It was entitled Signs and Wonders Camp meeting 1994. Pastors of huge charismatic churches were stumbling around the church stage "drunk" with "holy" laughter. Wanting to testify to the fact that "holy" laughter had transformed their ministries and their lives, many of them were unable to speak when called on to do so. But their "drunken" condition became their testimony. Their halting speech was seen as "proof" of the "power of the spirit" that had come over them. The congregation roared in approval as pastor after pastor laughed uncontrollably and then fell to the floor. Standing alongside the "drunken" pastors was evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne, the self described "Holy Ghost bartender" who was serving up this "new wine" of "holy" laughter. Many Christians today believe that Howard-Browne is God's appointed channel for imparting joy and revival to the end-times church. Other Christians see Howard-Browne as a false prophet who is inflicting great damage to the body of Christ.

Early last spring the Spiritual Counterfeits Project received a fax from someone expressing concern about a new phenomenon called "holy" laughter. He said that a San Francisco Bay Area Vineyard Church was experiencing what was being described as "revival" and that the manifestation of "holy" laughter was being cited as one of the signs of this "revival." Church members and visitors were reportedly breaking into fits of spontaneous and uncontrollable laughter during their nightly services.

Later when I talked with several members of the San Francisco Vineyard congregation I was told how hundreds of people were getting "hit" with "revival"--how some people were getting so "soaked in the spirit" they would lose consciousness for up to several hours after falling to the ground with "holy" laughter. The Vineyard members described "holy" laughter unqualifiedly as "awesome" and definitely "the work of the Lord."

I learned that their Vineyard pastors had recently flown to a Vineyard church in Toronto where God had reportedly "touched down" and where "revival" had "broken out." The San Francisco pastors participating in the Toronto "revival" had then "brought it back" to San Francisco. It seemed that one of the characteristics of "holy" laughter is that it can be easily transferred from one person to another through the laying on of hands. Thus the Toronto "revival" had now "spread" to San Francisco. Nightly meetings were now being held at the San Francisco Vineyard to accommodate the streams of people wanting to get "touched" by this "move of God."

Within weeks of my visit to Vineyard I happened to catch a program on "holy" laughter on a local Christian TV station. The panel of guests were enthusiastically discussing "holy" laughter and endorsing it unquestioningly as a latter days "outpouring" of God's Holy Spirit. Comparing "holy" laughter to the "work" of the Spirit at Pentecost, they were convinced that "holy" laughter was completely authentic. They equated "holy" laughter with the biblical notion of joy. As far as they were concerned "holy" laughter was the "joy of the Lord." Scriptural references to joy were cited; testimonies were given; songs were sung; and by the end of the program I felt like I had just watched a one hour info-mercial on "holy" laughter.

Then, several weeks later, there was a program about "holy" laughter on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. While preacher Rodney Howard-Browne was giving what appeared to be a serious message, people in the audience were laughing wildly for no apparent reason. But Howard-Browne seemed oblivious to the disruption and kept on preaching. Then when the laughter was at its height he began incorporating all that was happening into his sermon. He said that the "holy" laughter they were experiencing was a last days expression of God's "Holy Spirit." He too compared the "Spirit" that was manifesting to the Spirit at Pentecost. He reminded his audience how those gathered in the upper room had been viewed by others as being "drunk" on alcohol when in fact they were "drunk" in the Spirit.

Howard-Browne's audience continued to laugh hilariously as he spoke of a present day "revival" and how "holy" laughter was ushering in this "revival." At the end of the service Howard-Browne shuffled around the huge assembly hall, now breaking into long fits of laughter himself.

As he walked around, talking and laughing and speaking in tongues, he began to lay hands on people. After he said "be filled" and repeated the phrase "from the top of your head to the tips of your toes" people fell to the ground in hysterical laughter. As the program ended, the evangelist continued to weave his way amongst the fallen bodies, many of them still convulsed in laughter.

Also during this time I was sent a copy of a flyer saying that Charles and Frances Hunter, the authors of a new book entitled Holy Laughter, were coming to Portland, Maine. The flyer said, "God is filling the church with holy laughter! Come and receive a baptism of joy! YOU will never be the same! Don't miss this unforgettable move of the Holy Spirit!" Another book on "holy" laughter entitled Fresh Anointing: Another Great Awakening, was also brought to my attention at this time. In it, author Mona Johnian describes the "hold" laughter "revival" that erupted in her Boston church after she and her husband attended a meeting led by Rodney Howard-Browne.

In the midst of this same two-month period there was yet another program on "holy" laughter. I was watching a locally televised church service and the guest preacher was Richard Roberts, the president of Oral Roberts University and son of Oral Roberts. His whole sermon was on "holy" laughter and how it had changed his life and ministry. He described how "revival" had come to Oral Roberts University. Roberts explained how he had canceled classes for two days so that his four thousand students could personally experience the "joy of the Lord" and receive the "gift" of "holy" laughter. I was not surprised to learn that the "revival" Roberts was describing had come through the person of Rodney Howard-Browne.

And then to round out my summer crash course on the subject of "holy" laughter, the August issue of Charisma magazine had Rodney Howard-Browne on its cover. He was clearly the man of the hour. The cover story on this by now wildly popular "Holy Ghost bartender" was entitled "Praise the Lord and Pass the New Wine." The article was yet one more endorsement of Howard-Browne and "holy" laughter. And what I was starting to realize was that all of the "holy" laughter I had recently encountered--the TV programs, the books, the various "anointings" and "revivals" could all be traced back to him: Toronto Vineyard, San Francisco Vineyard, the Hunters, Mona Johnian, Richard Roberts, and all the rest. The Charisma article described Rodney Howard-Browne as the "spiritual conduit" for "holy" laughter. But I wanted to know how Rodney Howard-Browne got his "anointing?"

The Charisma article stated that in South Africa, in the summer of 1979, Howard-Browne "spent hours praying for a deeper experience with God." In the midst of his prayers he is quoted as having told God, "EITHER YOU COME DOWN HERE AND TOUCH ME, OR I WILL COME UP THERE AND TOUCH YOU." Charisma said that suddenly in the midst of that prayer Howard-Browne's "whole body felt like it was on fire. He began to laugh uncontrollably. Then he wept and began to speak in tongues." In Howard-Browne's book The Touch of God, Charisma quotes him as saying, "I was plugged into heaven's electric supply, and since then my desire has been to go and plug other people in."

And certainly one of the most outstanding characteristics of Howard-Browne's "anointing" and the whole "laughing revival" is that it is so immediately transferable from person to person. Those "anointed" by Howard-Browne can now "anoint" others. And that is what's happening. The "Spirit" that visited Howard-Browne has exponentially multiplied as it has been passed on from person to person around the world. A video advertised in that same August issue of Charisma documents the spread of Howard-Browne's "holy" laughter. It is entitled The Laugh that was Heard 'round the World.

The "holy" laughter "revival" started by Howard-Browne is spreading like wildfire around the world. A recent conference sponsored by Toronto Vineyard drew 2300 pastors from countries as far away as Cambodia. They had all come to observe the "laughing revival" that was now being called "The Toronto Blessing." Even skeptical pastors were getting "hit" with the "Spirit" and then taking that "Spirit" back to their churches and towns.

Howard-Browne's "laughing revival" has now officially moved into the Christian mainstream with a recent endorsement from Pat Robertson on his popular 700 Club. On October 27, 1994 Robertson said this about holy laughter: "...what this says to me is revival is taking place in the world in a mass wave...and we look to the coming of the Lord. I think this is a very encouraging sign in the middle of all this trouble and all these wars and all this confusion. God is saying I'm on the throne and I'm going to touch multiplied millions. It's wonderful. I applaud it."

But what does the Bible say about laughter?

Last summer, after watching Rodney Howard-Browne on TBN, I consulted my concordance to see if there was any biblical precedent for "holy" laughter. Surprisingly, I found only 40 references to laughter in the Bible; 34 of them were in the Old Testament, while only 6 were in the New Testament. Of those 40 references 22 of them referred to scornful laughter, as in Nehemiah 2:19 when Nehemiah said, "they laughed us to scorn." Of the 18 remaining references to laughter, seven of them referred exclusively to Abraham and Sarah's initial disbelief and ultimate astonishment that God would give them a child in their old age. Barely into my study on laughter I was already down to my last 11 references.

In Job 8:21 Bildad, one of Job's false comforters, wrongly advised Job that if he were in right standing with God he would be prosperous and full of laughter. The Psalmist in Psalm 126:2 recorded that when the captivity of Zion was over, "then was our mouth filled with laughter and our tongue with singing." Proverbs 29:9 says, "if a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest."

With only 8 remaining references I had seen nothing in the Bible up to this point that suggested anything even resembling "holy" laughter. In Ecclesiastes 2:2 Solomon says, "I said of laughter, it is mad." Ecclesiastes 3:4 says, there is "a time to weep and a time to laugh; a time to mourn and a time to dance." Ecclesiastes 7:3-4 says, "sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth." Ecclesiastes 7:6 says, "for as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of a fool: this also is vanity." Ecclesiastes 10:19 says that "a feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry."

Interestingly the Bible's last three references to laughter--the only three references to authentic laughter in the New Testament--warn against laughter. These three references actually seemed to underline Solomon's contention in Ecclesiastes that "sorrow is better that laughter" and that now is a time to weep and not to laugh. In Luke 6:21 Jesus says, "blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh." In Luke 6:25 Jesus says, "woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." James 4:9 tells us not to laugh but to "be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness."

I had searched the scriptures to find any biblical precedent for "holy" laughter and there was none. To my amazement, I had discovered that there were surprisingly few references in the Bible to any kind of laughter. Did this mean that God doesn't have a sense of humor or that people in the Bible never laughed? No. It just meant that laughter apparently was not something that God chose to emphasize very much. And certainly Jesus' last words on laughter--"woe unto you who laugh now!"--were not ones that would seem to give any encouragement to a "laughing revival."

The Lord says, "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18. Here are some of my concerns about "holy" laughter and "the laughing revival."

[b](1) There is no biblical precedent for "holy" laughter.[/b]

Laughter is rarely mentioned in the Bible. Yet, when it is, the Bible seems to make more of a case for holy sorrow than for "holy" laughter. Scripture supports Solomon's contention that "sorrow is better than laughter." It does not support the present "laughing revival."

[b](2) Substituting the word joy for laughter is a non sequitur. It is inaccurate and misleading.[/b]

There is no scriptural authority for equating biblical references to joy with the involuntary manifestations of "holy" laughter. Just because there are insufficient Bible texts to make the case for "holy" laughter, it does not follow that you can simply redefine the word laughter by substituting the word joy.

[b](3) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, discuss the need to "test the spirits."[/b]

The Bible warns us that not every supernatural manifestation is necessarily from God. 1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Charles and Francis Hunter write in their book Holy Laughter, "Once you begin to walk in the supernatural you really have to be ready for anything and everything and never question the way God does it!" (p.65)

[b](4) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Spirit's express warning that in the latter times some people will be supernaturally seduced by deceptive evil spirits into following them and not the one true God.[/b]

1 Timothy 4: warns, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

[b](5) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Bible's warnings of false prophets who come in the name of Jesus but bring with them "another spirit." 2 Corinthians 11:4 says, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

(6) Many laughter advocates condescendingly discourage and even openly intimidate sincere Christians who question the "laughing revival."[/b]

According to the August Charisma article, Rodney Howard-Browne "disparages" people who "try to apply theological tests" to what he does. The Hunters' book Holy Laughter refers to skeptics as God's "frozen chosen." Mona Johnian writes, "skeptics, hesitaters and procrastinators do not get anointed." She warns "that any person or church that wavered could be eliminated."

[b](7) Rodney Howard-Browne's prayer to God just prior to his "anointing" ("either you come down here and touch me or I'll come up there and touch you") was unscriptural.[/b]

Howard-Browne's prayer was the essence "my will be done." It was not "thy will be done," as taught by Jesus in scripture. Why should we automatically assume that it was God who answered his prayer?

[b](8) "Holy" laughter advocates, in talking about "signs and wonders," rarely, if ever, mention the Bible's many warnings about deceptive signs and wonders.[/b]

In Matthew 16:4 Jesus warns, "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." In Matthew 24:24 JESUS says, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In 2 Thess. 2:9 the apostle Paul warns of the coming Antichrist, "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

[b](9) "Holy" laughter advocates seem to lay hands on almost everybody. The Bible specifically warns against this.[/b]

The eighth chapter of Acts describes how the disciples would not lay hands on Simon, a baptized believer, even though he desperately wanted the gift of the Holy Ghost, because his heart was "not right in the sight of God." 1 Timothy 5:22 warns us to "lay hands suddenly on no man." Yet "holy" laughter is passed on from person to person without so much as a second thought.

[b](10) "Holy laughter advocates blatantly disregard the biblical admonition that things be done decently and in order.
[/b]
1 Corinthians 14:40 says, "Let all things be done decently and in order." Mona Johnian in her book Fresh Anointing says, "decently and in order! We must do things decently and in order. The Bible itself commands it, cry those who are frightened by that which is beyond traditional order" (p. 35). She advises her readers to "break with tradition" (p.45).

[b] (11) The chaos and confusion that usually characterizes the "laughing revival: contradicts the Bible's description of the Person of God.[/b]

1 Corinthians 14:33 states, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

[b](12) Laughter advocates rarely if ever, discuss the well documented demonic deceptions that have manifested in past revivals.[/b]

To combat the deception that arose during the Welsh revival at the turn of this century authors Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts wrote "War on the Saints: a disclosure of the deceptive strategies used by evil spirits against God's people." Both were very involved with the revival and were extremely concerned about the demonic manifestations that began to dominate their meetings. The forward to War on the Saints warns of "the grave dangers that beset the path of uninformed enthusiasm."

[b](13) A number of Christians have experienced the equivalent of "holy" laughter when they were in the New Age.[/b]

Indian Guru Bhagvhan Shree Rajneesh was affectionately known by his followers as the "divine drunkard" because he was reputed to have drunk so deeply from the well of the "Divine." As a former follower of Rajneesh I met hundreds of Sannyasins who had flown to India "to drink" from "Bhagwan's wine." When followers were physically touched by Rajneesh, or even if they were merely in his presence, they would often experience feelings of great exhilaration and joy. Disciples of Swami Baba Muktananda would often manifest uncontrollable laughter after receiving Shaktipat (physical contact) from the guru.

[b](14) The "laughing revival" could one day merge with what the New Age calls the coming day of "planetary Pentecost."[/b]

Barbara Marx Hubbard, (revered New Age leader and a 1984 Democratic nominee for the Vice Presidency of the United States), writes in her book, Teachings from the Inner Christ, how the human race will soon experience a day of "Planetary Pentecost." Hubbard, claiming to be in contact with "Christ," writes: "the Planetary Smile is another name for the Planetary Pentecost. When enough of us share a common thought of our oneness with God, Spirit will be poured out on all flesh paying attention" (p.79). In her book The Revelation, Hubbard says "Christ," in describing the planetary smile, said: "an uncontrollable joy will ripple through the thinking layer of the earth. The co-creative systems, which are lying psychologically dormant in humanity will be activated. From within, all sensitive persons will feel the joy of the force, flooding their systems with love and attraction...as this joy flashes through the nervous systems of the most sensitive peoples on earth, it will create a psycho magnetic field of empathy, which will align the next wave of people in synchrony, everywhere on Earth. This massive, sudden empathic alignment will cause a shift in the consciousness of Earth" (p. 234-235). Writing in Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, Hubbard repeats what she heard from "Christ." He said, "as the planetary smile ripples through the nervous systems of earth, and the instant of co-operation begins, and empathy floods the feelings of the whole body of Earth, separation is overcome, and I appear to all of you at once (p. 10-11).

The controversy over "holy" laughter is already splitting congregations and causing deep divisions in the body of Christ. And while many people have already taken sides, there are many more who are still trying to figure out just what is going on. Is this really a move of God, or is this the kind of deception the Bible warns about in Matthew 24, 1 Timothy 4:1, and in the second chapter of Thessalonians?

Unity is indeed the heartfelt desire of every sincere Christian (Psalm 133:1). But the Bible warns of massive deception that will come at the end and in Christ's name. Before the Church--in the name of unity--free falls into a worldwide "laughing revival," we had better be sure what it is we are uniting with.

In reflecting on "holy" laughter during these very troubled times, I recalled a music special I had seen on television a number of years ago. In the midst of an otherwise polite Hollywood type crowd, a male vocalist sang straight faced and sober into the teeth of their celebration. His words were electric and piercing, and they seemed to hang in the air. He sang, "you're laughing now, but you should be praying. You're in the midnight hour of your life."
[/b]

Some Examples of Holy Laughter in Other Religions

1) Kundalini Energy is typically described as a powerful energy source lying dormant in the form of a coiled serpent at the base of the human spine. When freed it reputedly has the capacity to effect great physical healings. Christina and Stanislov Grof, New Age authors of the book The Stormy Search for the Self, describe how the awakening of Kundalini energy can be triggered by an advanced spiritual teacher or guru. And how the awakening can bring up memories of past psychological traumas. The Grofs state that "individuals involved in this process might find it difficult to control their behavior; during power rushes of Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary sounds, and their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns. Among the most common manifestations . . . are unmotivated and unnatural laughter or crying, talking tongues . . . and imitating a variety of animal sounds and movements" (p. 78-79). The Grofs state that "careful study of the manifestations of Kundalini awakening confirm that this process, although sometimes very intense and shattering, is essentially healing."

Bwagwhan Shree Rajneesh, the former Oregon guru tells one of his followers in his book, Dance Your Way To God, "just be joyful . . . God is not serious . . . this world cannot fit with a theological god . . . so let this be your constant reminder - that you have to dance your way to God, to laugh your way to God" (p. 229). Often referred to as being "drunk on the divine," Rajneesh encouraged his followers to come and "drink" from him. Bahgvan's spiritual "wine" was often passed along with a single touch to the head. Many of his Sannyasins would fall to the floor in ecstasy after their encounters with Rajneesh.

Ramakrishna, an Indian saint, "daily went into 'samahdi,' a trance in which one involuntarily falls down unconscious and enters a rapturous state of super-conscious bliss (ananda), complete with beautiful visions and often involving astral projection. These states could last anywhere from a few minutes to several days and were often accompanied by uncontrollable laughter or weeping. He could send others into this state with a single touch to the head or chest" (unpublished article by John Rice on file at SCP).

Swami Baba Muktanada would transfer what was called "guru's grace" to his followers through Shaktipat (physical touch). This "grace" triggered the gradual awakening of the Kundalini which in turn produced various physical and emotional manifestations. Manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc. Some devotees became mute or unconscious. Many felt themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love. At other times the "fire" of Kundalini was so overwhelming they would find themselves involuntarily hyperventilating to cool themselves down (Per former Muktananda follower Joy Smith).

2) African Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari. The Grofs, in their book The Stormy Search For The Self , also cite an interesting parallel between the Kundalini awakening and the trance dance of the African Kung bushmen. During rituals the bushmen “enter a profound altered state of consciousness associated with the release of powerful emotions such as anger, anxiety, and fear. They are often unable to maintain an upright position and are overcome by violent shaking. Following these dramatic experiences, they typically enter a state of ecstatic rapture. According to the bushmen tradition, the dance releases from the base of the spine a cosmic healing force called ntum or ‘medicine.’ This is then passed by direct physical contact from one person to another.”

3) Qigong (ancient Chinese practice) Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong master known to most of the over one billion people in China, gave a talk in San Francisco in 1991. Seventeen hundred devotees, most of them Chinese, showed up at the Masonic auditorium to listen to Yan. The San Francisco Chronicle on 5/16/91 reported that "minutes into his talk, several began experiencing what Yan Xin calls spontaneous movements." The Chronicle reporter said that "before long, the scene resembled a Pentecostal prayer meeting with many people waving their arms and making unintelligible sounds." Yan told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying. Don't worry. This is quite normal." The article said that "since 1985, when a Qigong revival started sweeping China, 50 to 60 million Chinese have gone to see Yan."

4) Subud. According to The Encyclopedia of American Religions by J. Gordon Melton, the central element of the Subud faith is the practice of "latihan." Latihan is the way one surrenders to the power of God. It is a group process. The Encyclopedia says, "the latihan proper is a time of moving the consciousness beyond mind and desire and allowing the power to enter and do its work. . . . often accompanying the spontaneous period are various body movements and vocal manifestations - cries, moans, laughter and singing. These occur in the voluntary surrender of the self to the power. During this time, people report sensations of love and freedom and often, healings. All reach a higher level of consciousness"

By Warren Smith

[url=http://www.discernment-ministries.org/Holy_Laughter.htm]SOURCE[/url]

No doubt, many, not all, would agree, that the so called 'holy laughter revival', is not of God.

For that matter, what is it a revival of? Since when was laughter a revival of any kind?

If what is going on in Christian churches today consist of new age, seeker/emergent and only God Himself knows what to call it practices, then, what hope is there for the Church, let alone the world, the unsaved?

I'll leave it at that.

God bless.

Yeah, I agree with what has been said here.

There's a couple of scripture portions which I feel every believer must keep before them

[b]Matthew 7:22-24 (KJV) [/b]

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

[b]Matthew 7:13-15 (KJV) [/b]

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There is nothing spiritual about 'holy laughter'. Laughter is physical. The world loves laughter. What is there to laugh about when we consider the spiritual state of the Western World? It's a pitiful irony that this movement brings about a deep sadness in those who are genuinely born again.

Here is another scripture that simply puts the fear of God in me.

1 Peter 4v18, 'Now if the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?'

Actually, verse 17 is pretty scary too.

God isn't known for His 'jokes'

God bless.

I think this little snippet from Nee's book "The Latent Power of Soul" can help us in analyzing the extreme case of laughter in charismatic meetings. Nee ascribes much of it to psychic force, unsuprisingly, and I tend to agree. Give this little excerpt an honest reading:

"A great number of people desire to have joy in their feeling. The so-called holy laugh is an extreme case in point. It is taught that if a person is filled with the Holy Spirit he invariably will have this holy laugh. He who claims to have this kind of laughing cannot control himself. [i]Without any reason he will laugh and laugh and laugh as if infected by a certain disease, and will appear to be partially insane.[/i]

Once in a certain meeting, after the sermon was concluded, it was announced that everybody should seek for this holy laugh. All began to beat tables or chairs, jumping and leaping all around, until not long afterwards this so-called holy laughing came. People would merely look at one another and break out laughing. The more they thought about it the funnier it became. And so they could not contain themselves and kept on laughing. What is this? Can this possibly be the fullness of the Holy Spirit? Can this be His work? [i]No, this is plainly one of the works of the soul.[/i] I mention this extreme case in order to illustrate through an "extreme" how we may fly off on a tangent by just two or three degrees of incorrectness. In order to see if a thing is right or wrong, one only need magnify it to a hundred degrees, that is, have whatever it is drawn to the extreme. The guiding principle is that if it is wrong at the hundredth degree a person knows it is also wrong at the first or second degree. It is very difficult to judge by the first or second degree alone; in case there is any error such error is bound to be too minute to be discerned. But by lengthening or enlarging the situation or circumstance, everything will become most distinct.

A Chinese proverb runs like this: [i]Missing by a hundredth or a thousandth of an inch will end up in a distance of a thousand miles.[/i] You may start with only a mistake of one hundredth or one thousandth of an inch and find yourself afterwards with a discrepancy of one thousand miles. Or conversely stated, by looking at the discrepancy of a thousand miles you can see the mistake at one hundredth or one thousandth of an inch.

Suppose there arc two lines which are not exactly parallel but are off at a slight angle of one or two degrees hardly noticeable to the naked eye. If you lengthen these lines an inch longer the distance between them becomes obviously greater. Who knows how many hundreds of miles apart from each other these will be if these lines were to be extended to the ends of the earth? The distance at tens of thousands of miles away from their origin proves the existence of error formed at the starting point.

Now let us apply this rule to the so-called holy laugh:

How do people get this laugh? What procedure do they follow, or what condition must they fulfill? It is nothing but simply the asking to laugh. There is but one thought, which is, to laugh. Are they seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Their lips may indeed utter such words as "O God, fill me with Your Spirit." Nevertheless, that is merely a procedure; the aim of asking to be filled with the Spirit is something else than to be so filled. Though they may say so with their mouths, their heart desire is elsewhere. What is their aim? They want to laugh, to be joyful. They do not pray, "O God, I ask You to fill me with Your Spirit. I do not care for external sensation. If You fill me with Your Spirit, I am satisfied with or without feeling." Whoever wishes to be filled with God's Spirit ought to assume such an attitude.

Let me relate a true story. A student had repented and believed in the Lord. He had a fellowstudent who professed to be filled with this holy laugh and seemed to be excessively joyful. This fellowstudent urged him to seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit, saying how joyful he himself was from dawn to dusk without any sadness, and stating how helpful this experience would be to spiritual growth. Considering that his fellow-student was a believer and already a possessor of this experience, the recently saved student thought he too should have it. Accordingly, he began to pray earnestly to God. He continued in prayer, asking God to give it to him; to such an extent that he lost his appetite and neglected his study.

Later on he went to see his teacher and asked that he pray for him. The student himself pleaded fervently with God, and vowed that he would not get up from prayer that evening if God did not give it to him. He kept on praying till suddenly he leaped up and shouted how joyful he was. He laughed and laughed. The more he laughed the funnier he felt. He laughed and danced and shouted. His teacher thought he must be out of his mind. Acting as though he were a physician, the teacher took hold of him and said, "Brother, be quiet, do not act disorderly." But the more he was admonished, the fiercer he reacted. His teacher dared not say anything more, being fearful lest he offend the Holy Spirit if this were truly of God. Finally the student went home and was better the next day. [i]Now this was nothing but a great release of soul power, for he had fulfilled the condition for its release.[/i]"

- Watchman Nee (Taken from "The Latent Power of the Soul, 1933)

It is apparently real important to some that charismatics fail or are cancelled out.

I will agree that we that believe in the gifts are easy targets. And there are plenty of Christians with microscopes waiting for any slip or "heresy" they can point out.

I also thought Holy laughter was bogus. Then I went to a meeting.
It was definitely the Holy Spirit.

Even C&MA leader A. W. Tozer also spoke positively of holy laughter:

"Now I say that worship is subject to degrees of perfection and intensity. There have been those who worshiped God to the place where they were in ecstasies of worship. I once saw a man kneel at an altar, taking Communion. Suddenly he broke into holy laughter. This man laughed until he wrapped his arms around himself as if he was afraid he would bust just out of sheer delight in the presence of Almighty God. . . . So worship is capable of running from the very simple to the most intense and sublime."

So many great men of God experienced Holy Laughter.
Aren't you glad not all stifle the Holy Spirit?

I also thought Holy laughter was bogus. Then I went to a meeting.It was definitely the Holy Spirit.

And there are plenty of Christians with microscopes waiting for any slip or "heresy" they can point out.

Brother Paul

Hey All,
This article by Warren Smith is very thorough and good.

I have seen short clips of chinese rolling on the floor, laughing, crying and all other kinds of manifestations. This 'evil' has penetrated a most hungry society, China, and may be poised for a disastrous fall.

That said, during a Missionary class I attended at Southern Evangelical Sem. in NC, the professor mentioned a great need for teachers and Bibles in China. This struck me very intensely and deeply. A people, who are coming to know the Lord Jesus in large numbers in China, if untaught and unlearned in the Truth of God's Word become subject to 'anything and everything.' Especially in a society where Qigong is such a common part of daily life. They go see a Qigong specialist as easy as we go get aspirin.

Can our yearning and desire for worldwide revival be an actual factor for our own deception when the false comes. A new-ager writes about a 'Planetary Revival' in the article above, it seems even the liars are expecting a worldwide thing to occur.

Jesus warned in Matt 24, "See to it that no one misleads you..." As if to charge us with that duty. We must stand firm until the end and only those that do will see Him.

How shall we then live?

How will we, dear brothers and sisters, Stand firm until the end? How will you intentionally set your face on the Lord, to Seek Him with all your heart and let no lie get in?

This must be our daily plea:

To Know His ways so that we may Know Him!
To Love the Truth, Jesus is Truth!
To seek Wisdom and Humility.

Can we be safe in these?

I have seen short clips of chinese rolling on the floor, laughing, crying and all other kinds of manifestations. This 'evil' has penetrated a most hungry society, China, and may be poised for a disastrous fall.

Watchman Nee was writing and warning about this phenomena even back in the early 1920's from what he saw at the meetings in Shanghai and Foochow. The uncontrollable laughter, the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe for "power" preaching, running and jumping and laughing and all other types of soulish manifestations.

It is apparently real important to some that charismatics fail or are cancelled out.

Fail in what sense?

If a charismatic is preaching the pure undiluted gospel and winning souls for Christ then I'm 100% behind them. If they're laying up treasures for themselves in this world then they've already failed.

As I see it these charismatic movements have never had as much money as they currently have. They claim 'revival' yet all around I see spiritual deterioration. When I witness on the street many people point to these movements as lunatic asylums. My belief is that they work AGAINST worldwide evangelism and not for.

Quote:
" as of yet... you offer absolutely NO scripture to back your position. Just quotes from other people. Well, I dont care what people have to say about, I only care what scripture has to say about it."

neither did john the revelator

Mayby nobody had yet seen what he saw.
Can God do a new thing without our permission?

Quote:

"When I witness on the street many people point to these movements as lunatic asylums. My belief is that they work AGAINST worldwide evangelism and not for."

Do you also go by what"many street people" say to form your other opinions?

Any one used of God will be criticized by the world. If the world loves you something is missing.

What in the world will you do if God shows up at an SI conference of some church in your area.

If you continue to malign and criticise moves of God.....do you really think God can bless you?

It is friends family and Christians that typically come against any move of God.

The ones willing to permit the Holy Spirit access will be the easy targets.
When the Holy Spirit comes in power not all can handle it. So they manifest. I have seen his over and over.
Then here comes the christian police to smear the whole thing.
It is impossible to have a move of God with zero manifestations.

The very ones crying foul are the very ones overemphasizing the manifestations.

It is a mathematical equation.
God shows up. Certain people manifest. Most are too overwhelmed by Gods presence to care about the person next to them. But always the"police" will be there to overemphasise the manifestations. And now with utube and willing "ministers" the "policing errors" are on steroids.
But they unwittingly shoot down any chance for God to do something in their midst.

David

What is it about men that lean towards attributing miracles to the devil? As if he can do and is more powerful than God?

I think maybe some perspective might be in order?

God is big
The devil is a wimp.

Elijah understood this.

If the devil shows up and someone manifests thats ok
If the Holy Spirit shows up now he can ONLY be the devil?

Do you really think you can take it.....to be in Gods manifest presence,when men couldn't even stand to be in the presence of angels?

It not ok with you that the power of God makes people manifest.

And then you smear the Holy Spirit by saying the devil MADE them do it.

It not ok with you for God to have power and when his power and purity comes up against sinful man they shake and tremble and fall and roll and do weird things?

They cant take it so they react.
I can promise you ,you cant take it either and neither can I.

Quote;
"Classical conditioning is getting the people to sing "the loud choruses sung over and over and over again, working the people up and creating an atmosphere ripe." If companies hire psychologists to create an illusion that appeals to our senses, why wouldn't churches? Apply the following to unscrupulous churches...

Classical Conditioning is the type of learning made famous by Pavlov's experiments with dogs. The gist of the experiment is this: Pavlov presented dogs with food, and measured their salivary response (how much they drooled). Then he began ringing a bell just before presenting the food. At first, the dogs did not begin salivating until the food was presented. After a while, however, the dogs began to salivate when the sound of the bell was presented. They learned to associate the sound of the bell with the presentation of the food. As far as their immediate physiological responses were concerned, the sound of the bell became equivalent to the presentation of the food."

This is exactly how most people see the church.
They see us as brainwashed.

Again this exact thing can be applied to the folly of the church police.

They start with a premise "miracles are so rare and anything supernatural is of thee devil'
They dont want the intent of their heart exposed so they attack other camps,calling it "berrean"

"we just want to be right on" they tell you.

Lets take speaking in tongues.

I speak in tongues. Nothing to do with the devil.

Now some one comes along,never spoke in tongues but hangs out with those that say"thats the devil"
and so for me to "convince this man of anything is futile. His mind has been conditioned by false assumptions.
They heap their teachers to themselves under every premise but God.

tongues came from heaven to man but man comes from man to other men to convince all that tongues are of the flesh and it is the devil that provides this power.
It doesnt matter if it came from God or not. It is classical conditioning of their teachers that has squelched something Ordained of God.

Ironically it is these police that are the ones to overemphasize the manifestations and miracles.

Look at the bible . is it JUST a book of manifestations and miracles?

You watch someone is going to say this.

Another"eye-opener" for those who still have their doubts if this is a move of God or not

[b]The Toronto Deception

By Paul Gowdy
Former Toronto Vineyard Pastor[/b]

It has taken me nine years to actually come to the place where I would write this story. Part of the reason was because I was not fully convinced that it is appropriate to speak out against weaknesses in the body of Christ publicly. Another reason is because it has taken years of soul searching to become convinced that what happened in the Toronto Airport Church was actually all bad or at least more bad than good!

For the past number of years I have called it a mixed blessing. I think James A Beverly called it this in his book Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing 1994. Today I would call it a mixed curse concluding that any individual good that came from this experience is far outweighed by much harm and satanic deception. I suppose that therein has been my dilemma. I have tried to live my life in the fear of the Lord and Jesus told us that the unforgivable sin was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Attributing to Satan what was in fact a work of God. If pressed as to whether or not the Toronto blessing is all God or all Devil I will still be hedgy, but I am convinced that Satan has used this experience to blind people to the historical doctrines of God, to produce fruit in keeping with repentance, to failing to test and discern the spirits and failing to test prophecy.

After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of ‘soaking,’ praying for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!

My experience has been that the manifestation of spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 st Corinthians 12 was much more common in our assembly, before January 1994 (when the Toronto blessing started.) than during this period of supposed Holy Spirit visitation.
During 1992-1993 when praying for people we would experience

what I believe was genuine prophesy, deliverance and much grace and favour from the Lord. After the Toronto Blessing started, all ministry time changed, the only prayers were ‘More Lord MORE ’, the shouting of ‘Fire’ the jerky shaking of the body with the ‘ooh ooh OOH WOOOAAH’ prayer. (I kid you not!)

On January 20 th 1994 about 15 people from our church traveled over to Toronto Airport Vineyard in order to listen to Randy Clark, a Vineyard pastor from the USA. John Arnott had called our senior pastor to invite us. He communicated that Randy had been to the Rodney Howard Browne meetings and that the stuff had broke out in his church in the following weeks. John was hoping that something might break out with us too. We were only too happy to travel over. We were a church plant out of the Toronto Airport and we started in 1992. In those days there were three Vineyard Churches in Toronto. One Down Town church, Scarborough vineyard church to the east and the AirPort Church. We were one big happy family. Because we were small in number we did special meetings, conferences etc, together.
The year before most of our leadership teams joined and had headed to Nicaragua for a short term missions trip. We had genuine love and fellowship with each other. Since leaving the Vineyard churches I have read a fair bit of analysis from the critics. Some make out that the Toronto Blessing was one huge conspiracy to lead the body of Christ into heresy. Heresy and apostasy I suspect may well be the result, but none of these destinations were intentional. I am honestly convinced that the leaders in the Vineyard churches are genuine born-again Christians who love the Lord, but have fallen into deception. They have not loved the Lord enough to keep His commandments. They have failed to obey the scriptures and have been led astray by our longing for something bigger and brighter and more exciting and dynamic. I am guilty of this sin also. I have preached renewal in Korea, the United Kingdom, the USA and here in Canada. I am genuinely repentant and in writing this story I would ask you the bride and body of Christ to forgive me. Especially the Pentecostal / Charismatic Christians among you, for you are my immediate family theologically. I am an evangelical Christian, I always have been but I do not believe in the cessation of the spiritual gifts at the end of the apostolic era. I believe that it was my evangelical roots (my family are Baptists and I was born again in the Presbyterian Church.) that started to open my eyes to problems with this so called renewal. In hind sight I look back and think how could I have been so blind? I laughed at people acting like dogs and

pretending to urinate on the columns of the TACF building. I watched people pretend to be animals, bark, roar, cluck, pretend to fly as if they had wings, perpetually act drunk and sing silly songs. How I thought that any of this was from the Holy Spirit of God amazes me today. It was loud irreverent and blasphemous to the Holy God of the Bible. I suppose in my mind I reasoned that as long as they did not teach any thing in direct violation to scripture then it was what we called the exotic. This is a buzz word for manifestations that could not be justified from a biblical perspective. I was taught from the pulpit that we had two options. The order of the nursery full of life and messy or the order of the graveyard, very orderly but dead! As a young immature pastor I wanted life with mess. I failed to remember that God wants us to become mature and grow up in him. I became disconcerted by the prophetic words that came forth especially one by Carol Arnott in which she had her bride experience where she was taken into the very presence of Jesus and said that the love that she experienced was even better than sex! I was shocked in my spirit and thought how can one compare the love of God with sex? When we suspected that demons were running riot in our services John Arnott would teach that we should ask are they coming or going. If they are leaving then that is ok! John would defend the chaos by saying that we ought not be afraid of being deceived, if we have asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill us then how could Satan come and deceive us? This would make Satan very strong and God very weak! He said that we needed to have more faith in a Big God to protect us than in a Big Devil to deceive us. This sounded very convincing but was totally contrary to scripture for Jesus and Paul and Peter and John all warn us about the power of deceiving spirits and especially so in the last days. Again we did not love God enough to obey His Word and the result was that we opened ourselves up to lying spirits. May God have mercy upon us!
Finally the penny dropped for me as I was rolling around one night ‘drunk in the Spirit’ as we would say. I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.’ came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin. After this experience I stayed away from TACF. I did not go back there any more. I did not possess the conviction to denounce the whole experience but thought that we where failing to pastor the Blessing well enough.

Even after I stopped going over to TACF, I had to pastor the fruit of it. One example was when some of our people returned from a meeting there asking us if we had all received the golden sword of the Lord? I asked them what they were talking about thinking that it was some prophetic reference to the Holy Scriptures but they said, ‘no, its not the Bible, it’s an invisible golden sword that only the really pure can receive. If taken in an unrighteous fashion then the Lord would kill you. But if you are holy enough to receive it then you can wield this sword and it will heal aids, Cancer etc. and bring salvation. How one wielded this sword was by pretending to have this invisible sword in your hand and motioning to strike people with it when in prayer! I thought while even in deception at this time that the TACF had become Looney bins! This was purportedly first received by Carol Arnott and then given to the ones holy enough to receive it! Another thing was the golden fillings in the teeth. We had people in our assembly peeping down one another’s throats looking for the gold fillings that God had placed there to show how much he loved them! In all my time there I only heard one message on repentance given by a visiting speaker from Hong Kong named Jackie Pullinger. It went over like a lead balloon. We were not there to repent, we were there to party in the Lord! After one year into the blessing I spoke out at a pastors meeting and said ‘guys we have shaken, rattled, rolled, laughed cried and bought the tee- shirt. But we have no revival, no salvation, no fruit and no increased evangelism so what’s the deal?’ I was soundly rebuked - who was I to expect to see fruit when the Lord was healing his broken people? We had been legalistic long enough and God was spending this time restoring his wounded and freeing us from legalism I was told not to push the Lord and the harvest would come in his time.’
I knew this was wrong because the Lord had commanded us to go into all the earth and make disciples! Not, that everyone should take a sabbatical for who knows how long, while God does some strange new thing! Ultimately I left over something as controversial as the ordination of women. Personally I believe from scripture that women should not be pastors/ elders in a local assembly. I could be wrong on this and there is much debate in the Church today but that is my conviction and in the Vineyard churches they were ordaining all the pastors wives to co pastor with them. I am certainly for women in ministry but believe that the Elder/ pastor role in a local assembly has been reserved for men. I did not write scripture but God willing I

will have the grace from now on to obey it.

So there is my story. I could go on and document much excess, folly, sin and latter day reign teaching that manifest from the prophetic end of this Blessing but others have already done that. We sang about Joel’s army and the billion soul revival as if it were one of the Ten Commandments, and as always it was just around the corner. Next month, next year etc. Jesus said that when the son of man returns will he find faith upon the earth? And if he does not return when he does no flesh would be saved but for the sake of the elect he comes. This is a far cry from the domionism that is being taught all through the vineyard / prophetic/ spiritual warfare movement. I honestly think that they think they are going to take over the whole world! While in the Vineyard I embraced a life verse from the Apostle Paul the phrase do not go beyond what is written!

To finish I just want to say sorry for the damage, that I have personally done by teaching things that are not correct biblically. I repent before men as I already have before God. I will not excuse my falling into deception. I did not bother to test things when the scriptures commanded us to do so. Everyone who was there when this thing started knows that what I write is true, they would just come to different conclusions especially if they are still promoting the ‘river!’
To those in the river I would say swim out, there are things living in the water that will bite you real good! I love the people of TACF and the Vineyard movement but I think that we have much to answer for and may the Lord open your eyes sooner rather than later. I suspect that when this letter goes online I will get bombarded by emails from both camps, some damning me for still believing in the ministry of the Holy Spirit and still walking in deception and some old friends damning me for exposing dirt or being negative about the Lords anointed! Well, the Lord knows my heart and by his grace he will guide me into all truth as I seek to know Christ and him crucified! If you believe that I walk in sin and error please pray for me that the Lord would forgive me and open my eyes. I will study the word to show my self a work man approved! I would call on all who read this to pray that the Lord would open the eyes of all who have been involved in this deception. Whether leader or follower, we are loved and the Lord is a forgiving God. He says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I believe we are like the church in Laodicea, we think that we are rich, have prospered and need nothing, we do not realise that we are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. We must take the Counsel of Jesus and buy gold refined in the fire (which is his suffering, not a false spirit!) white garments to clothe our shameful nakedness and salve for our eyes that we might see again. Jesus is calling us to repentance and thank the Lord that he is, for it will lead us to true restoration with our Father! If God has forgiven me and opened my eyes then he can do it for all those caught in deception too. I will finish with a warning from Paul, he says if you think you are standing firm be careful lest you fall.

We have read Tozer quotes on this, here are some of John Wesleys thoughts about this. Neither Tozer or Wesley are scripture,but interesting read anyway.

John Wesley Responds To The Toronto Blessing Type Phenomena Of His Day.

Excerpts from "The Works Of John Wesley"

VOLUME FOUR \\ JOURNAL FROM SEPTEMBER 4, 1782, TO JUNE 28, 1786. \\ Page 329

It is chiefly among these enormous mountains that so many have been awakened, justified, and soon after perfected in love; but even while they are full of love, Satan strives to push many of them to extravagance. This appears in several instances: --

1. Frequently three or four, yea, ten or twelve, pray aloud all together.

2. Some of them, perhaps many, scream all together as loud as they possibly can.

3. Some of them use improper, yea, indecent, expressions in prayer.

4. Several drop down as dead; and are as stiff as a corpse; but in a while they start up, and cry, "Glory! glory!" perhaps twenty times together. Just so do the French Prophets, and very lately the Jumpers in Wales, bring the real work into contempt. Yet whenever we reprove them, it should be in the most mild and gentle manner possible. nothing higher in religion; there is, in effect, nothing else; if you look for anything but more love, you are looking wide of the mark, you are getting out of the royal way. And when you are asking others, 'Have you received this or that blessing?' if you mean anything but more love, you mean wrong; you are leading them out of the way, and putting them upon a false scent. Settle it then in your heart, that from the moment God has saved you from all sin, you are to aim at nothing more, but more of that love described in the thirteenth of the Corinthians. You can go no higher than this, till you are carried into Abraham's bosom.

VOLUME ELEVEN \\ A PLAIN ACCOUNT OF CHRISTIAN PERFECTION \\ Page 429-430

"Some have been ignorant of this device of Satan. They have left off searching the Scriptures. They said, 'God writes all the Scriptures on my heart. Therefore, I have no need to read it.' Others thought they had not so much need of hearing, and so grew slack in attending the morning preaching. O take warning, you who are concerned herein! You have listened to the voice of a stranger. Fly back to Christ, and keep in the good old way, which was 'once delivered to the saints;' the way that even a Heathen bore testimony of: 'That the Christians rose early every day to sing hymns to Christ as God.' "The very desire of 'growing in grace' may sometimes be an inlet of enthusiasm. As it continually leads us to seek new grace, it may lead us unawares to seek something else new, beside new degrees of love to God and man. So it has led some to seek and fancy they had received gifts of a new kind, after a new heart, as,

(1.) The loving God with all our mind;

(2.) With \\ Page 430 all our soul;

(3.) With all our strength:

(4.) Oneness with God:

(5.) Oneness with Christ:

(6.) Having our life hid with Christ in God:

(7.) Being dead with Christ:

(8.) Rising with him:

(9.) The sitting with him in heavenly places:

(10.) The being taken up into his throne:

(11.) The being in the New Jerusalem:

(12.) The seeing the tabernacle of God come down among men:

(13.) The being dead to all works:

(14.) The not being liable to death, pain, or grief, or temptation.

"One ground of many of these mistakes is, the taking every fresh, strong application of any of these scriptures to the heart, to be a gift of a new kind; not knowing that several of these scriptures are not fulfilled yet; that most of the others are fulfilled when we are justified; the rest, the moment we are sanctified. It remains only to experience them in higher degrees. This is all we have to expect. Another ground of these, and a thousand mistakes, is, the not considering deeply, that love is the highest gift of God; humble, gentle, patient love; that all visions, revelations, manifestations whatever, are little things compared to love; and that all the gifts above-mentioned are either the same with, or infinitely inferior to, it. "It were well you should be thoroughly sensible of this, -- 'the heaven of heavens is love.'

VOLUME TWELVE \\ Letters to Miss Bolton \\ Page 481 LONDON, December 5, 1772.

MY DEAR SISTER,

I KNOW not that ever you asked me a question which I did not readily answer. I never heard any one mention anything concerning you on that account; but I myself was jealous over you. Perhaps I shall find faults in you that others do not; for I survey you on every side. I mark your every motion and temper; because I long for you to be without spot or blemish. What I have seen in London occasioned the first caution I gave you. George Bell, William Green, and many others, then full of love, were favoured with extraordinary revelations and manifestations from God. But by this very thing Satan beguiled them from the simplicity that is in Christ. By insensible degrees they were led to value these extraordinary gifts more than the ordinary grace of God; and I could not convince them that a grain of humble love was better than all these gifts put together. This, my dear friend, was what made me fear for you. This makes me remind you again and again. Faith and hope are glorious gifts, and so is every ray of eternity let into the soul. But still these are but means: The end of all, and the greatest of all, is love. May the Lord just now pour it into your heart as he never has done before. By all means spend an hour every other day in the labour of love, even though you cannot help them as you would. Commending you to Him who is able to make you perfect in every good word and work,

VOLUME ONE \\ JOURNAL FROM NOVEMBER 1, 1739, TO SEPTEMBER 3, 1741. \\ Page 271-272

Fri. 9. I was a little surprised at some, who were buffeted of Satan in an unusual manner, by such a spirit of laughter as they could in no wise resist, though it was pain and grief unto them. I could scarce have believed the account they gave me, had I not known the same thing ten or eleven years ago. Part of Sunday my brother and I then used to spend in walking in the meadows and singing psalms. But one day, just as we were beginning to sing, he burst out into a loud laughter.

VOLUME ONE \\ JOURNAL FROM NOVEMBER 1, 1739, TO SEPTEMBER 3, 1741. \\ Page 272-273

Wed. 21. In the evening such a spirit of laughter was among us, that many were much offended. But the attention of all was fixed on poor L-a S-, whom we all knew to be no dissembler. One so violently and variously torn of the evil one did I never see before. Sometimes she laughed till almost strangled; then broke out into cursing and blaspheming; then stamped and struggled with incredible strength, so that four or five could scarce hold her: Then cried out, "O eternity, eternity! O that I had no soul! O that I had never been born!" At last she faintly called on Christ to help her. And the violence of her pangs ceased. Most of our brethren and sisters were now fully convinced, that those who were under this strange temptation could not help it. Only E-th B- and Anne H-n were of another mind; being still sure, any one might help laughing if she would. This they declared to many on Thursday; but on Friday, 23, God suffered Satan to teach them better. Both of them were suddenly seized in the same manner as the rest, and laughed whether they would or no, almost without ceasing. Thus they continued for two days, a spectacle to all; and were then, upon prayer made for them, delivered in a moment. Mon. 26. S-a Ha-g, after she had calmly rejoiced several days, in the midst of violent pain, found at once a return of ease, and health, and strength; and arose and went to her common business.

VOLUME THREE \\ JOURNAL FROM OCTOBER 29, 1762, TO MAY 25, 1765. \\ Page 144-145

Mr. Evans now gave me an account from his own knowledge, of what has made a great noise in Wales: --- "It is common in the congregations, attended by Mr. W. W., and one or two other Clergymen, after the preaching is over, for any one that has a mind, to give out a verse of an hymn. This they sing over and over with all their might, perhaps above thirty, yea, forty times. Meanwhile the bodies of two or three, sometimes ten or twelve are violently agitated; and they leap up and down, in all manner of postures, frequently for hours together." I think, there needs no great penetration to understand this. They are honest, upright men, who really feel the love of God in their hearts. But they have little experience, either of the ways of God, or the devices of Satan. So he serves himself of their simplicity, in order to wear them out, and to bring a discredit on the work of God.

VOLUME FIVE \\ THE LIFE OF THE REV. JOHN WESLEY \\ Page 514 - 515

The extraordinary manner in which some persons were frequently affected under Mr. Wesley's preaching, as well as that of his coadjutors, now created much discussion, and to many gave great offence. Some were seized with trembling, under a painful conviction of sin; others sunk down and uttered loud and piercing cries; and others fell into a kind of agony. In some instances, while prayer was offered for them, they rose up with a sudden change of feeling, and testified that they had "redemption through the \\ Page 515 blood of Christ, even the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace." Mr. Samuel Wesley, who denied the possibility of attaining to a knowledge of the forgiveness of sins, treated these things, in a correspondence with his brother, alternately with sarcasm and serious severity, and particularly attacked the doctrine of assurance. In this controversy, Mr. John Wesley attaches no weight whatever to these outward agitations; but contends that he is bound to believe the profession of an inward change made by many, who had been so affected, because that had been confirmed by their subsequent conduct and spirit.

Intens4Him wrote:
...because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived.

This needed to be said more precisely:

[b][u]2 Thessalonians 2[/u][/b]

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not [b]the love of the truth,[/b] that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause [b][u]God[/u] shall send them strong delusion,[/b] that they should believe a lie:

nothing higher in religion; there is, in effect, nothing else; if you look for anything but more love, you are looking wide of the mark, you are getting out of the royal way. And when you are asking others, 'Have you received this or that blessing?' if you mean anything but more love, you mean wrong; you are leading them out of the way, and putting them upon a false scent. Settle it then in your heart, that from the moment God has saved you from all sin, you are to aim at nothing more, but more of that love described in the thirteenth of the Corinthians. You can go no higher than this, till you are carried into Abraham's bosom.

Now there's some advice we would all do well to follow, thanks for sharing this item from Wesley.

[i]And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:[/i]
(1Th 3:12)

In Christ,

Ron

Quote;
"And about speaking in tongues, I speak in tongues. I believe in laughing and in the joy of the Lord as well."

And this speaking in tongues,are you aware that religious men will try to tell you that you do so under the power of the devil?

They bring strong scriptural doctrine to try and take from you what you know is God.
You did not acquire this gift,you received it. No man can take it from you. It is from heaven and I nor anyone else can convince you otherwise.

It is a glorious thing to have something personally given them of God. This doesnt happen everyday and it is priceless. You didn't earn it or deserve it.
But you know it came from heaven.

now you know that some are able to "manufacture" tongues.
Or maybe satan can counterfeit tongues.

They can throw all these arguments at you but you know that you know that you know it is God all the way!

It is so glorious being in his presence. I love revival and seeing people touched and receiving their miracles.

Quote:
"No one can convince you, pray and ask God if this truly is of God or a delusion because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived."

And no one can convince you through scripture that your gift of tongues is of the devil.
Even if they show counterfeit tongues from utube.

Thank God we have him and not just a Book.
we have the one that wrote the book living in us.

"My sheep know my voice"

David

Quote;
"Oh, I dont know... maybe scripture?? For instance: Matthewn 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

... and just make sure we understand it, it's repeated again for us: Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Well in that case it seems to me were pretty safe
cause you just posted earlier that there are no proven healing and nobody gets set free.

Quote;
"I couldn't take it... so I begged God to forgive me of my sins, and I repented.

You, sir, need to study your Bible."

Do you have any idea how arrogant that is?
That's like saying"I know it was God because I looked it up."
I hope if you are ever in revival you carry a concordance around with you.

Quote;
"Exactly what do you base this on? Certainly not scripture because you have never once ever on this forum used scripture to back up anything that you have said. Shame on you."

Where were you when i posted hundreds of scriptures?
Matt24;24 is referring to the great tribulation.
If I read that correctly even this great power of the false prophet comes from God.

Besides those scriptures you point to are you trying to make them mean that the false prophet and the Antichrist are at work today?

Shame on who?

by Tears_of_joy on 2008/5/1 16:33:28

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intens4Him wrote:
...because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This needed to be said more precisely:
by Tears_of_joy on 2008/5/1 16:33:28

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intens4Him wrote:
...because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This needed to be said more precisely:

2 Thessalonians 2

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Wow ....and you guys get after me ....on scripture???
Lets take a look and see if the sky is falling;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is referring to the antichrist. So Benny Hinn is safe for now.

Try again

[u][b]1 John 2:18 [/b][/u]

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, [b]even now are there many antichrists;[/b] whereby [u]we know that it is the last time. [/u]

I would like to clarify something.
i do not need to or desire to defend a Holy laughter. Or tongues or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Or any gift.
my beef is the corporate blanketing of "all"

As bro Tom put it. lumping in the feathers with the turkey.
Not a pretty sight.
So if there is counterfeit laughter and you found it more power to you.
But when you say all Holy Laughter is the devil?

All I need is one example and that little rumor is destroyed.

You will never have freedom in a fellowship where you can control everything.
By the same token the Holy Spirit will not invade where he is controlled.

David

while I do not endorse what happened in Canada and other places it really needs to be noted the following: Psa 126:1 When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion,
we were like those who dream.
Psa 126:2 Our mouths were filled with laughter -----the result of this kind of laughter was freedom from and restoration of the covenant blessings of God. I have seen real holy laughter which has brought freedom from bondages and sinful habits, I have also seen the excesses and misuse of God's anointing, much like what we see in the life of Samson. I dont understand it and I dont always agree with what I see but I've become real slow at calling things demonic because God does not force thoughs He anoints to become super robots to do His will. There is always choice, nothings ever forced, we are never with out choice. Thats why the giver of talents can judge righteously what each servant does with that talent that was entrusted to him/her--some 1 talent some 3 talents some 5 talents. The same principle runs along the lines of anointings. Personally I would stop all laughter in the church, maybe even cancel all joy too while I was at it and maybe even christmas-----JUST kidding! As for other religions? As for other peoples? As for other Movements? "When we compare our selves by our selves we are unwise". I don't say not to discern, for the spiritual man discerns all things, but dont let your knowledge become a stumbling block for those with a weaker sense of discernment and judgement but gently instruct those. And as Jude Jud 1:23 save others by snatching them from the fire; on others have mercy in fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

[i]My! Sometimes my soul is jarred when I hear people flippantly say: "Have you got your baptism?" Supposing that Jesus was on the cross, and we were privileged tonight to look into His face at this hour, I wonder what the feeling of our soul would be? Supposing we were to follow tonight behind the weeping company that bore His dead body and laid it in the tomb, what would our feelings be? Supposing we were to meet Him in the garden, as Mary did, in the glory of His resurrection or supposing that God in His goodness would let us look into that scene of scenes at the Throne of God, when the heavens lifted up their gates, and the Lord of Glory came in. Oh, if we could, beloved, we would have a better comprehension of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost

I love that dear old word "Ghost." The Anglo-Saxon is "Ghost" a spiritual guest, heavenly visitor, spiritual presence, the Angel One. And that Angel One that comes to you and me, comes right out of the heart of the Eternal God, breathed through the soul of Jesus Christ! When it came upon a man originally, as it did upon the hundred and twenty at Jerusalem, no one went around saying: "Brother, have you got your baptism?" They were walking with their shoes off, with uncovered heads and uncovered hearts before the Eternal God!

I believe that the first essential in a real Holy Ghost church and a real Holy Ghost work, is to begin to surround the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with that due reverence of God with which an experience so sacred, and that cost such an awful price, should be surrounded.

John G Lake[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23302&forum=35]The Dr lake factor[/url]

Holy laughter also occurred in early evangelical and holiness circles. Jonathan Edwards describes the reaction of some who were converted in the Great Awakening revival: "Their joyful surprise has caused their hearts as it were to leap, so that they have been ready to break forth into laughter, tearing often at the same time issuing like a flood, and intermingling a loud weeping."17 E. M. Bounds records Wesley saying, "The power of God came mightily upon us, so that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground."18 Charles Finney wrote that after he testified about his experience of being baptized in the Spirit, a usually serious elder of his church "fell into a most spasmodic laughter. It seemed as if it was impossible for him to keep from laughing from the very bottom of his heart"

"The kingdom of God is . . . peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).
"Ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory" (1 Peter 1:8)

ps 126;2;

2Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them

Jessie Penn-Lewis recounts manifestations of holy laughter and being drunk in the Spirit taking place during the Australian Keswick Convention of 1891:

The Convention was marked by clean-cut surrender to God for all His will to be done at all costs, and by an overflowing joy which followed in hundreds of hearts, so that, as Mr. George Soltau wrote, "Literally 'our mouths were filled with laughter and our tongues with singing'. . . . It was impossible to restrain one's heart, the Lord giving us such a foretaste of heaven. Talk of "fleshly excitement," I wish to bear my testimony that it was nothing less than the fulness of the Spirit. We were verily drunk with the joy of the Lord, and with the vistas of the possibilities of faith opening up to the fully surrendered life of the believer. But it was equally manifest to us all that this joy and blessing is only to be received and retained and increased by the death to self and of self and the most painful crucifixion of self

In 1897 A.B. Simpson wrote that one of the effects of being filled with the Spirit is "fullness of Joy so that the heart is constantly radiant. This does not depend on circumstances, but fills the spirit with holy laughter in the midst of the most trying surroundings."21 Simpson himself records in his diary on September 12, 1907, that he experienced holy laughter for more than an hour.22

Oswald Chambers also recorded in his diary on April 19, 1907: "Last night we had a blessed time. I was called down by the teachers to pray and anoint a lady who wanted healing, and as we were doing it God came so near that upon my word we were laughing as well as praying! How utterly stilted we are in our approach to God. Oh that we lived more up to the light of all our glorious privileges."23 Chambers evidently believed that laughter could be a sign of revival and, like Simpson, a result of the baptism in the Spirit.24

My there sure are a lot of us loose cannons

Krispy, let me say first that I agree with your exhortation to David. And I hope he will humble himself and took to heart.

But I think something much more profitable could come out of this thread, particularly for you, but also for every one else.

You said:

One thing you need to do, brother, is listen more and talk less.

Krispy, if this council you gave to David is valid, it is even in times much more valid for yourself. The very fact of the number of posts of your name, but even this is not so important, but something else, much more important, it's the way, authenticity and reality put in those words.

I believe three or more (I would call them 'prophets') told you that, but you didn't took them to heart and continue in the same way.

One of the most valid and right on the spot was one word that was given to you one year ago, which you refuse it, [i]immediately[/i] (after only 17 min. - so sad)

It was given here [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16599&forum=34#128836]here[/url] , particularly the second paragraph, beginning with:

"There are many teachers who can expound on the word, but the word is not at all rooted in them. Do you know you can expound on the word and still be a slumbering christian? There are many teachers who uses human authority to share the word because they have no spiritual authority."

It cannot be said more accurately.

It is wonderful that the Lord brought you out of the charismatic foolishness. But this is far from to think that the churches and movements you left, and now what you have 'reached' is the authenticity in which you and the house church you are preaching are what the spiritual reality in which we are called to live as a body of Christ and men walking in the Spirit.

Although I agree with some of your stands on some subjects, but the authority of God, the truth in the inner parts, the anointing of the Spirit, the reality around you and the reality in the heavenly places, the real understanding of spiritual truths of the church and the world, is [i]missing[/i].

You don't have to answer to this quickly as most of the times, and you don't have to answer at all.

You have said much here (more than thousands other members of this forum) and it is time to take your own council to consideration. The main purpose of this site is not something else, but to spread the messages of some godly saints, who have came to a place of that reality that is required of us. If your heart longs for that, you can profit much from this site, much more that you have ever imagined. Like many other saints who have few posts, but profited so much, listening those messages and reading those articles.

If you would like some help in a certain direction, with some recommendations of sermons or something else, feel free to write, we (including me) would gladly give you links enough solid food and meat that is good for spiritual growing. Use your own council and use the benefits of this site . And the main benefits are not the 'talking' here on the forums, but the materials that are provided.

We are about to face the most terrible days in the history, and it will require reality in ourselves and in the church in order to go through these days with [i]glory and joy[/i], suffering with the Lord and for the Lord. Otherwise, utter confusion and deception will prevail, not knowing which path to take.

Kire

This is a previous post I made;

Quote;
"And about speaking in tongues, I speak in tongues. I believe in laughing and in the joy of the Lord as well."

And this speaking in tongues,are you aware that religious men will try to tell you that you do so under the power of the devil?

They bring strong scriptural doctrine to try and take from you what you know is God.
You did not acquire this gift,you received it. No man can take it from you. It is from heaven and I nor anyone else can convince you otherwise.

It is a glorious thing to have something personally given them of God. This doesnt happen everyday and it is priceless. You didn't earn it or deserve it.
But you know it came from heaven.

now you know that some are able to "manufacture" tongues.
Or maybe satan can counterfeit tongues.

They can throw all these arguments at you but you know that you know that you know it is God all the way!

It is so glorious being in his presence. I love revival and seeing people touched and receiving their miracles.

Quote:
"No one can convince you, pray and ask God if this truly is of God or a delusion because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived."

And no one can convince you through scripture that your gift of tongues is of the devil.
Even if they show counterfeit tongues from utube.

Thank God we have him and not just a Book.
we have the one that wrote the book living in us.

"My sheep know my voice"

David

The gifts from god are different than what you acquire. You dont deserve his gifts but he gives them anyway.

Can we find any example of tongues being misused or manufactured?

So for consistency sake we will blast tongue talkers?

John the revelator did not come off patmos wondering if he received from a false God.

He KNEW it was God.

John 10:4

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Holy Laughter meetings came and went for me but the wonderful fruit still remains to this day.
When i come up against life and death situations and i find myself in intercession I sometimes experience the Laughter.
God is good and anything he hands me is RIGHT.
Even when he judges me He is right and good.

The Holy Laughter meetings were awesome and I will always be thankful for that wonderful time. So many were delivered and healed and set free.

Those times are precious and I dont know of any Holy Laughter going on now.

I have been born again,baptised in the Holy Spirit,and been through deliverance.

All were of God no matter what some man may say .

I know who my redeemer is. And I am sure someone can come up with plenty of scripture against born again,Baptism,and deliverance,and laughter,and I am also sure they will feel like champions,having put down what God did in my life,but in the end they hurt only themselves.

No man can take what God gives. Even if I surrender the back of my neck to the sword,that is the ultimate.

David

psalm1 wrote:
My there sure are a lot of us loose cannons

David,

[b]1 Corinthians 14:20[/b]

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

You are expressing utter childish behaviour. Not taking to heart the words that were given to you, but repeating the words of the saints, taken OUT of context and words that has [i]nothing[/i] to do with the 'holy' laughter that you are promoting.

You ought to be man of truth, man who love the truth, and not to [i]misuse[/i] the words of the saints. If you have just read and understand the writings and the life of Edwards, Bounds, Wesley, Tozer, Finney, you wouldn't dare to post and characterize these brothers words into what you call 'holy' laughter which has nothing common between them.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=1SgByE0pX1M

You are already in a dangerous zone, rejecting the authority of Scripture. Meditate on 2 Th. 2 chapter. and consider it as a mercy of God that you are here and someone can correct you, as many brothers did. But if you refuse the correction, the scripture doesn't give any further hope. Consider it as a mercy that you are here, given to you by the Lord. You didn't have to be here, and you didn't have to hear the exhortation of the brothers, it is a mercy. And if you refuse it, further more, nothing could be said or done.

During the Welsh revival of 1859, "many leaped and danced in the exuberance of their rapture."27 Sometimes related to the laughing phenomenon is a spontaneous dancing for joy. Praying Hyde, a staid Presbyterian, is described after a time of intense prayer at the Sialkot Convention (similar to Keswick), "He begins to sing, 'Tis done, the great transaction's done,' and he is so full of joy that his whole body begins to move, he claps his hands, then his feet begin to move, and look! he begins to dance for joy, and others join him until the whole place rings with God's praises."28 Such dancing also occurred upon occasion in C&MA meetings. Simpson writes of an African-American C&MA meeting he visited in 1895: "We witnessed a sacred dance by about fifty of the women." They swayed and moved arms and feet, keeping time to the music. "The effect was truly grand."29 As Vinson Synan notes, for some holiness groups, spontaneous dance or holy laughter was considered an evidence of Holy Spirit baptism.30

KrispyKrittr wrote:
David... it might surprise you to know that I'm not against speaking in tongues. I do think it is widely abused, and in a lot of cases it is done out of order. But I have never once said that tongues is not of God.

You whine about people making blanket statements about the things you promote... "holy laughter", so-called "revivals" (which are not revivals by definition)... yet you turn around and make blanket statements about anyone who might question some things... calling them "religious" people, etc.

You're being a hypocrite in the worst fashion.

Krispy

I was thinking your next post will be "my dad can beat up your dad"

Again Chambers records in his journal May 6, 1907, "It is an unspeakably blessed thing to see souls come out under the blessing of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire. Some simply laugh, peals of the heartiest and most blessed laughter you ever heard, just a modern edition of 'Then was our mouth filled with laughter.'" A third time Chambers writes on May 27, "Many souls cut loose, there were tears and laughter and all the blessed signs of those revival times the Lord brings so mysteriously and suddenly upon His people. It is a great business to open up all the windows of the soul to heaven and live on the Hallelujah side."

Praying John Hyde, the great intercessor and missionary to China also experienced holy laughter in the summer of the same year. His companion relates of a low caste Punjabi intercessor:

How often has G_____, after most awful crying seemed to break through the hosts of evil and soar up into the presence of the Father! You could see the smile of God reflected in his face. Then he would laugh aloud in the midst of his prayer. It was the joy of a son reveling in the delight of his father's smile. God has been teaching John [Hyde] and me that his name is the God of Isaac—laughter. . . . Rejoicing, laughing, the same word as Isaac. This holy laughter seemed to relieve the tension and give Heaven's own refreshment to wrestling spirits."

This is a previous post I made;

Quote;
"And about speaking in tongues, I speak in tongues. I believe in laughing and in the joy of the Lord as well."

And this speaking in tongues,are you aware that religious men will try to tell you that you do so under the power of the devil?

They bring strong scriptural doctrine to try and take from you what you know is God.
You did not acquire this gift,you received it. No man can take it from you. It is from heaven and I nor anyone else can convince you otherwise.

It is a glorious thing to have something personally given them of God. This doesnt happen everyday and it is priceless. You didn't earn it or deserve it.
But you know it came from heaven.

now you know that some are able to "manufacture" tongues.
Or maybe satan can counterfeit tongues.

They can throw all these arguments at you but you know that you know that you know it is God all the way!

It is so glorious being in his presence. I love revival and seeing people touched and receiving their miracles.

Quote:
"No one can convince you, pray and ask God if this truly is of God or a delusion because those who love NOT the truth in it's entirety will be deceived."

And no one can convince you through scripture that your gift of tongues is of the devil.
Even if they show counterfeit tongues from utube.

Thank God we have him and not just a Book.
we have the one that wrote the book living in us.

"My sheep know my voice"

David

The gifts from god are different than what you acquire. You dont deserve his gifts but he gives them anyway.

Can we find any example of tongues being misused or manufactured?

So for consistency sake we will blast tongue talkers?

John the revelator did not come off patmos wondering if he received from a false God.

He KNEW it was God.

John 10:4

4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Holy Laughter meetings came and went for me but the wonderful fruit still remains to this day.
When i come up against life and death situations and i find myself in intercession I sometimes experience the Laughter.
God is good and anything he hands me is RIGHT.
Even when he judges me He is right and good.

The Holy Laughter meetings were awesome and I will always be thankful for that wonderful time. So many were delivered and healed and set free.

Those times are precious and I dont know of any Holy Laughter going on now.

I have been born again,baptised in the Holy Spirit,and been through deliverance.

All were of God no matter what some man may say .

I know who my redeemer is. And I am sure someone can come up with plenty of scripture against born again,Baptism,and deliverance,and laughter,and I am also sure they will feel like champions,having put down what God did in my life,but in the end they hurt only themselves.

No man can take what God gives. Even if I surrender the back of my neck to the sword,that is the ultimate.

David

Such manifestations of laughing or falling were sometimes accompanied by unusual bodily sensations. Charles Finney avowed his baptism in the Spirit was "like a wave of electricity, going through and through me."31 Early C&MA pastor Dr. E. D. Whiteside's testimony of healing in 1888 included both physical sensations and falling under the power of the Spirit: "Like a flash of electricity, I was instantly thrilled. Every point of my body and nerves was controlled by a strange sensation that increased in volume, until I bowed lower and lower to the floor. I was filled with the ecstatic thrill. My physical frame was unable to stand the strain."32 Reminiscent of holy laughter, he reported that he felt he was on the verge of "dying from overjoy."33 The C&MA journals record many instances of physical sensations like heat, electrical shocks or bright lights accompanying healing

[u][b]2 Peter 2:17-19 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

Hi David...

I've always enjoyed reading about the life of Charles Finney. I don't actually trust all of the books by Finney -- since he only wrote one with his own hand (his autobiographical [url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/1868Memoirs/memoirsindex.htm][i]Memoirs of Revival of Religion[/i][/url]). The quote that you mentioned comes from Chapter 2 of the book. There, Finney speaks about a “baptism of the Holy Spirit” that he felt on the evening of the first day that he truly came to Christ. The passage states:

By evening we got the books and furniture adjusted; and I made up, in an open fireplace, a good fire, hoping to spend the evening alone. Just at dark Squire W, seeing that everything was adjusted, bade me goodnight and went to his home. I had accompanied him to the door; and as I closed the door and turned around, my heart seemed to be liquid within me. All my feelings seemed to rise and flow out; and the utterance of my heart was, "I want to pour my whole soul out to God." The rising of my soul was so great that I rushed into the room back of the front office, to pray.

There was no fire, and no light, in the room; nevertheless it appeared to me as if it were perfectly light. As I went in and shut the door after me, it seemed as if I met the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. It did not occur to me then, nor did it for some time afterward, that it was wholly a mental state. On the contrary it seemed to me that I saw Him as I would see any other man. He said nothing, but looked at me in such a manner as to break me right down at his feet. I have always since regarded this as a most remarkable state of mind; for it seemed to me a reality, that He stood before me, and I fell down at his feet and poured out my soul to Him. I wept aloud like a child, and made such confessions as I could with my choked utterance. It seemed to me that I bathed His feet with my tears; and yet I had no distinct impression that I touched Him, that I recollect.

I must have continued in this state for a good while; but my mind was too much absorbed with the interview to recollect anything that I said. But I know, as soon as my mind became calm enough to break off from the interview, I returned to the front office, and found that the fire that I had made of large wood was nearly burned out. But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. [b]I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way.[/b] It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.

No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, "I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me." I said, "Lord, I cannot bear any more;" yet I had no fear of death.

How long I continued in this state, with this baptism continuing to roll over me and go through me, I do not know. But I know it was late in the evening when a member of my choir--for I was the leader of the choir--came into the office to see me. He was a member of the church. He found me in this state of loud weeping, and said to me, "Mr. Finney, what ails you?" I could make him no answer for some time. He then said, "Are you in pain?" I gathered myself up as best I could, and replied, "No, but so happy that I cannot live.

Let me make this clear: I am quite “pentecostal” in my beliefs. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit as contained within the Word of God. I do not believe that they "ceased" during the first century (as over the years, some have been eager to "explain"). I have received a baptism of the Holy Spirit that was evidenced by speaking in tongues. Yet I also believe that these things are not meant as a spectacle -- but as an equipping of the saints. In fact, I have seen some pretty amazing things during my life.

However, I’ve also witnessed quite a bit of counterfeit displays of what people attribute to the Holy Spirit. I’ve attended Benny Hinn meetings where people all around me fell to the ground, jumped up a moment later, and went on as if nothing eternal had happened. I once heard someone fall to the ground, get back up and discuss where they were going to eat between services and if they had time to watch a movie. I’ve always thought that, if God were to knock me down, the first thing to come out of my mouth would not be about dinner and a movie.

Long ago, I came to a conclusion that not everyone who speaks in tongues REALLY speaks in tongues. Not everyone who claims to feel “supernatural electricity” really feels supernatural electricity. And not everyone who gets “slain in the Spirit” really gets slain in the Spirit. I’ve spoken with many, many people who have admitted (after prodding them with my own experiences) that they weren’t really “slain in the spirit” – even though they fell down in the front of the congregation. Why did they do it? Some said that they were pushed down. Some said that they fell down because of “spiritual peer-pressure” (if that makes sense). Some said they did because they didn’t want to “fight God” and were “helping Him out.”

What am I saying? I don’t want to “throw out the baby with the bathwater.” However, I want to make sure that we aren’t putting the baby in a substance that is anything BUT water. God could easily knock people down (physically). He did it in John chapter 18. He did it to the priests during the Dedication of the Temple of Solomon (I Kings 8:11). But did such things resemble the fickle display of the “supernatural” that you see in many charismatic services?

Sadly, I feel that we often “chase the wind” through such things. In fact, people travel the country (and even the world) in search of something real. During the revival in Pensacola, people that I knew traveled there to “see” and “experience” what was going on. I asked a friend who went (you may know him, he is a missionary to Mexico from Rockport, Texas) what it was like. He told me, “Well, it wasn’t any better than the time I spend alone with God.” Ouch. Yet people waited in line for hours and hours. Now, I am NOT saying that the occurrence in Pensacola was not a legitimate move of God. In fact, I just don’t know enough about it to make any sort of judgment on the matter. Sometimes, things can “get out of hand” and “into the flesh” – even during a meeting where many are diligently seeking God. But such things make me wonder: What does it mean to be “touched” by God?

When God touches someone – they are changed. Remember Jacob? Jacob wrestled with the supernatural at Peniel (named by Jacob afterward, meaning “[i]the face of God[/i]”). After his little wrestling match, Jacob limped away with a wrenched hip (Genesis 32:22-31). And to think – all that he wanted was a “blessing.” But once God truly touches us, we cannot remain the same.

Isn’t this always the case? Can someone get “touched by God” and remain the same? Aren’t we challenged to continuously seek His face and do great things for the Lord? Then why is the Church – especially the Charismatic Church – in such a state of disarray? If God was truly touching these people as much as they claimed, wouldn’t things be different? Wouldn’t they be doing everything that they could to change this world? Yet many of them can fall down and get back up every Sunday or Wednesday. Out of physical discontent, many of them continue to look for the material blessing of “prosperity” instead of the spiritual discontent with the things of this world – where, like Abraham, we prefer the things that are eternal over the temporary blessings of this life.

I agree that the Lord still heals. But if Benny Hinn truly believed in his “gift,” then why doesn’t he visit hospitals? I believe that the dead can be raised. But if David Hogan really believes that he has raised over 500 people from the dead, then why doesn’t he visit the morgue? If people truly believe that they can prophesy, then why don’t they visit the sinner with such supernatural words of knowledge. Instead, the modern Charismatic Church prefers to display such things on the stages of fancy Church buildings and crowded convention centers that are mostly filled with fellow Charismatic believers.

Indeed, God can (and still does) perform the miraculous. I have seen things with my own eyes that are almost unbelievable to many. But the Lord didn’t do such things to build up the name of a Church, a ministry, or a man. He did such things because of His great love for mankind – and His desire to draw all men unto Himself.

When I visited a set of Rodney Howard Browne meetings at the Bayfront Plaza Hotel in Corpus Christi as a teenager, I was amazed at the spectacle that I witnessed. It was one of the first times that I ever wanted to leave a meeting because I was so troubled in my spirit. I was a young believer – but I knew that something wasn’t right (even though the Church that I attended was beginning to dabble in that sort of thing). When our group left the meetings, I noticed that there was a bar on the floor below the meeting hall. Those patrons were unmoved and unaffected by the supposedly “supernatural” events going on upstairs – even though the doors were open and they could hear everything. This is a stark contrast with the events on the day of Pentecost.

We really need a move of God. We truly need a revival in our land. But will it be a revival that resembles the meetings that we witness in which people walk around like they are in a physically drunken stupor? Or will it be a revival of the knowledge that men and women everywhere need a relationship with the Creator of all things?

This world is growing increasingly dark. Sin is becoming increasingly “tolerated” and even promoted by leaders in government. Abortion – the slaughter of defenseless, unborn children – is applauded by the same people who campaign for the protection of animals and trees. People are slowly losing their belief in the God of the Bible. Muslims now outnumber those who claim to be Christians. In fact, over 83% of the world doesn’t claim to believe in Christ. Out of those 17% who do, nearly half of them follow the doctrines of Rome. Many more are involved in “Christian” cults (like the Mormons). And even those who follow more truly sound persuasions spend their times arguing about petty differences in doctrinal views. All the while, two people die every single second and face a horrendous eternity without Jesus!

We really need a revival in this world! Like Keith Green used to say, “[i]This generation of believers is responsible for this generation of souls.[/i]” That means we have a great responsibility upon our shoulders. What are we to do? Are we to simply give them the same charismatic junk food that we watch on television which slowly clogs the arteries of sincere believers around the world? Or are we supposed to give something REAL – with great substance? May God help us – revive us – to fall upon our faces in pure communication before Him! May he teach us how to become His people upon this Earth!

The end is near. Even if we have a hundred years for which we can spread the truth of Jesus Christ -- would it be enough? Over five of the six billon people on Earth do not even claim to believe in Jesus. And out of that billion that do, how many truly meet with Him in prayer? This should shake us to our bones! This world is doomed, yet we continue to eat, drink and be merry in our own little Christian worlds. Do we not tremble before God because of these things? I wonder: Will we be held responsible for those "talents" (truths?) that we buried and kept from the world?

May the Lord revive us that we might sound the alarm to the rest of the world!

:-(

EDIT*
- Let me add that I admire your heart and passion for Jesus, dear brother! While we might not agree totally on all things, I believe that it is apparent that your heart truly seeks after the things of God. I think that this is true of most of us here. Why would we even be spending time at a website dedicated to true Biblical revival and truth if we were not seeking it for ourselves? The Lord bless you mightily!

Quote;
"We really need a move of God. We truly need a revival in our land. But will it be a revival that resembles the meetings that we witness in which people walk around like they are in a physically drunken stupor? Or will it be a revival of the knowledge that men and women everywhere need a relationship with the Creator of all things? "

I will anxiously await the true revival that EVERYONE on SI anticipates.
The Holy Spirit now has a "heads up" as to what it will look like.
As we watch the videos of the true revival with absolutely no emotion and no fleshly displays of those charismaniacs. I'm sure we will be inspired by the earnestness of the faces in the crowd as they sit lifelessly and orderly knowing that any emotion they may feel will have to be controlled fearing a false manifestation.

Does this mean I am really seeing revival break out in dead churches but we just haven't discerned it yet?

David

psalm1 wrote:
Quote;
"We really need a move of God. We truly need a revival in our land. But will it be a revival that resembles the meetings that we witness in which people walk around like they are in a physically drunken stupor? Or will it be a revival of the knowledge that men and women everywhere need a relationship with the Creator of all things? "

I will anxiously await the true revival that EVERYONE on SI anticipates.
The Holy Spirit now has a "heads up" as to what it will look like.
As we watch the videos of the true revival with absolutely no emotion and no fleshly displays of those charismaniacs. I'm sure we will be inspired by the earnestness of the faces in the crowd as they sit lifelessly and orderly knowing that any emotion they may feel will have to be controlled fearing a false manifestation.

Does this mean I am really seeing revival break out in dead churches but we just haven't discerned it yet?

David

I do not appreciate your tone whatsoever. This post seems to hint that you really have no idea what the other people in this thread have concerns over. Learn what the people are actually talking about then you can criticize. There is a reason that a few different people have confronted you with issues on this thread. It's not because they are bored with nothing to do nor it is because you are receiving "persecution."

If you understand what their concerns are, can you please give a brief summary of them? If you can't give an honest and accurate summary then you are just speaking out of ignorance.

Since you said "EVERYONE on SI," I thought I would speak up since I'm included in that number.

- Josh

psalm1 wrote:
Does this mean I am really seeing revival break out in dead churches but we just haven't discerned it yet?

Of course there is a revival, but revival of falling away, and revival of raising up more false teachers and prophets, revival of more followers to them, as the the Word says, proclaiming another gospel and making the way of the Antichrist, revival of great deceptions in the church.

[b][u]2Thesalonians 2:3[/u][/b]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there [b]come[/b] a falling away [b][u]first[/u][/b], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

First I would like to make it known that all through church history the true saints have been persecuted. Paul was in prison and some were preaching to try and irritate him. his reply was well at least their preaching Jesus and some may come to true salvation. second the temptation is to speak about what label to put on deceivers. They are wolves in sheeps clothing but they are not christians. they are imposters who are out to make covetous gain by colecting the money of gulible saints. I knew a minister once who claims to be visited by the devil and the devil offered him tremendous wealth to destroy a great man of God's ministry. He didn't do it but other things happened by accident which caused him to be in a bad place with the minister he was to harm. It is not fair to throw all of the inocent christians who are faithful enough to die for the Lord Jesus in a box with deceivers who use their particular name of denomination. we should say these are deceivers imposters false prophets, but not charismatics or other titles. again there are faithful christians in different walks. i am hoping this is clear as a means of protecting the true faithful. third, when I was young and living in New York my freind and I were horsing around in a church vestibule. we were not high on anything. I said something so funny that we laughed and laughed. something strange happened to me. I couldn't stop laughing even though I wanted to. some of you readers may know what I'm talking about. I was hurting and when you hurt you stop laughing--- no I couldn't I was out of control. our jokes were evil so could be the devil but God doesn't give something to hurt us. we should also be able to stop. the deceiver and the work he thinks is of God does know he's a deceiver but his mind is also deluded and cannot reason whether he is right or wrong because when he harms other people he has his mind under a very strange control. mezmerism by the man named Mezmer was where people were not christians were falling under a force which he as a non christian tapped into. The deception lies in the misconception of understanding the call of God, these signs shall follow them that believe, a sign is to be discerned by the word of God and the Holy Spirit. here's mine-- Browne doesn't say Jesus he says ho and people fall or laugh. The people Jesus ministered to had faith. the meetings of today they say anybody gets it. Jesus said let it be according to your faith Matt. 9:29 I do appreciate all who expose the false ministers in order to --- protect the sheep.

David,

Take a break from this.