videos of steve hill and john kilpatrick at florida revival

My husband found these online they are of steve hill and john kilpatrick at the florida revival speaking and blessing the movement and praying for todd bentley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEIp11FnuSg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQqe8BJm12g

This is disturbing and demonic.

For the sake of the forum rules, I remind you that we are not supposed to be linking to youtube videos.

theopenlife wrote:
This is disturbing and demonic.

quote]

AGREED!

Oh wow,they are having fun. I've got to get there!!! Thank you Jesus!!

O Lord, how much longer?

Not every night of these meeetings has had a carnival atmospere. There have been nights of weeping over sin and the lost. There have been nights of joy and laughter. Nothing in those two descriptions discredits it from being a genuine move of the Spirit. Every historic revival has always contained those elements. Weeping, wailing is not the earmark of true revival. The exaltation of Jesus and the transformation of lives for His glory is the earmark. Let's remember how to be truly discerning folks. Take it from the Berean's! Their first instinct was belief they then tested it against the word of God. To often we come at things from a negative. That's NOT true discernment and is certainly not operating in love which "believes all things".
God bless,
jeff

Not really...
My use of this scripture was not meant to say if we are operating in love we must believe everything. I should have amplified it more and made myself more clear. My concern is that is seems many who APPEAR genuinely hungry for a move of God have doubt and unbelief as their knee jerk reaction. Example, "Oh I hear that revival has broken out in Lakeland", the response, "Friend that cannot be true revival. The city isn't changed yet. There's to much glorification of a man. Where's the weeping and wailing that's evidence of repentance? etc..."

It seems that when we hear a report of something happening we (even if we're right sometimes) come at it from an angle of doubt and unbelief. Do we forget that the great men of God like G Campbell Morgan denounced the Azusa Street Revival as "the last vomit of satan."? Another great one, RA Torrey, denounced it and stated they were founded by a "soddomite"? The "soddomite" in question was Charles Parham, who was accused of sodomy in Zion, also denounced Azusa Street saying that God was sickened in his stomach at the sight of blacks and whites worhsipping together.

Jessie Penn Lewis in her bizarre, grossly unscriptural and "way to popular with anti revivalst crowd" book, War on the Saints, denounces much of the phenomena associated with the Welsh Revival as being demonic and fleshly. Forget the fact that the fruit of this revival abounded, it was the physical manifestations and unintelligilbe cries of the people that discredit it. (...how sad) An interesting side not is that Evan Roberts himself referred to War on the Saints as being a failed weapon that had divided God's people.

History proves my point. When individuals come at something with a pseudo-berean approach (which is doubt all and then prove your doubts through study) end up with the same conclusions about moves of God - the were of the devil. Sure some good may have come from them, like the salvation of thousands, but the negatives, bizarre physical manifestations, were far to abundant for the movement to be considered beneficial. (last statement laced with sarcasm...)

The Berean spirit is receiving the message with joy, hoping this could be what you're praying for, then studying the scriptures to see if it be true. We have entire ministries that are based on the opposite approach.

If joy, laughter and physical manifestations discredits a man or movement than forget about John Hyde, Evan Roberts and the Welsh Revival, Duncan Campbell and the Hebrides, Johnathon Edwards and the Great Awakening, Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, Cane Ridge, John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth, CL Culpepper and the Shantung Revival, and the list could go on and on and on . . .
(and, by the way, not ALL of the manifestations attending the afforementioned ministries occured in the context of repentance and sorrow over sin...)

I dunno...I'm gonna quite typing now. Maybe this will speak to someone...
Jeff

Truth and error mixed together. The devil's favorite trick.

Some may believe this to be revival, but I believe this is damning the souls of men. This is [b]so[/b] serious. I simply don't believe that these ministries preach true repentance. At their core is healing and the supernatural not repentance from sin.

I would encourage younger Christians to study the material available on this web site (sermonindex) and spend time with God and your Bible. Study Paul's letters to Timothy and steer clear of these false movements.

[i]15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/i]

[i]2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)[/i]

I trust you will soon discover that these 'revivals' are from the pit.

Brothers and sisters, we are in the end times, there can be no doubt. Trust Christ alone for your salvation, not whether you've been healed or have the gift of tongues etc etc. Just trust Him alone. And don't expect a more comfortable life. This is not scriptural. Expect peace with a Holy God and what a joy this is!

[i]7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [/i]

[i]Philippians 4:7 (KJV)[/i]

God bless

David

I heard about this about two weeks ago. My heart has been very heavy over it all, This is no game. Not a matter of just knowing truth, but willing to speak up to those we know. At least for me, I am hearing people I know follow this. My heart just weeps. This isn't truth, and many are being fooled.

I beg you Brothers and sisters, Let us pray even more, as the day of Christ draws near, Let us pray for mercy.
That we might know the word, that we might know truth. 1 tim " charge you certain persons not to teach any different doctrine"
I pray God will gather and rise up mighty men of God who will speak the word of God. Men who are willing to risk there lives. To know the truth and take risk for it.

God showed this would happen a while back. I was in tears for months. All I could cry was mercy. He showed me that many will come and seek Him but be blinded, even those who love God. It still strong on my heart. Let us pray and stand for truth.

I know there many who are leaving to this revival. Blinded .not seeing it for what it is.

pray that will open their eyes to truth
Pray all who are watching it on Godtv
Pray for those who are going off feeling

Pray for morning star ministry that is saying this the real thing
Pray lies to exposed in peoples heart
pray those who came to be healed, ad not to stop and think
Pray for Light
Pray for bold preacher to go and preach to those who are coming and going in

Pray for those that are hoping to get a
anointing and bring it home.
To our knees brothers and sister that we might fight in not our power but His. Holy holy holy is our God, he shares not his glory with another.

In Christ
Charlene

If joy, laughter and physical manifestations discredits a man or movement than forget about John Hyde, Evan Roberts and the Welsh Revival, Duncan Campbell and the Hebrides, Johnathon Edwards and the Great Awakening, Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, Cane Ridge, John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth, CL Culpepper and the Shantung Revival, and the list could go on and on and on . . .

could someone please explain to me what parts of the two videos were "disturbing" and "demonic"?

It looked to me like a bunch of hungry people crying out to God for revival and salvation of lost souls...good preaching too...

It is our familiarity with what this man believes, beyond this one clip, that especially concerns and frustrates some of us. Read what Andrew Strom has presented elsewhere.

Well, isnt that odd? Steve Hill once being mentored by Leonard Ravehill and put through bible school by David Wilkerson. The same Hill - is also a friend of Benny Hinn. Steve Hill seems to have lot of friends from different traditions.

Magnus ;-)

could someone please explain to me what parts of the two videos were "disturbing" and "demonic"? "

Jkail.

I could see if one person just watched these two clips would have a hard time seeing it as disturbing and demonic, after all in them they say this man is about saving lost souls. But listen close, they talk of the reason why this man is godly. But what makes a godly man? Look how is shaking, this disturbing to me. This bring uneasy feeling to my heart.

Prayers can sound great, think about national day of prayer. They have the mayor go up and pray, he may know the Lord, but wow what a pray he prays. Why because it is written for him. I am not saying there prayers where written. But goes to show, prayers can great, and have no real truth to them.

What makes us trust a pastor? Why would we listen to Him? There has to be trust? How can you trust that what they are saying is truthful and not show? What do we test their words with? and if a person is found not trustful in some of their words, how can trust the rest? If a man speak with passion about the teasure of marriage yet go and sleep with another women while married, who could trust his words? But he speaks with such zeal and passion, his words are wonderful put togeher. But his action didn't follow his words.

When I see these video I feel the same. Here this man speak with such passion and zeal, but later is speaks againt the truth of the word. by what he teachs and does.

There prayer, seems good widom might humble heart. he goes on to speak of the greatest need to be saved. and how God died for when we are sinners. But dear beloved this all sounds so good and even so real. If know not the word of God, we too could be fooled to think this is real. This why so many are going so many are listening so many are being fooled. because there is so much truth mixed with lies. We must test everything.

But the part that is scary there it is mixed teachig that is demonic. beyond these video you see the show and disturbing things that are said.
these video are not good, they lead many way. Look deeper in who this man is. What is he teaching? How is doing these healing? Is what he teachs go with the bible? test everything and then pray and seek out wisdom for others. People may being healed but that doesn't mean it is from God.

thank you beloved for your question, may go grow you in wisdom and truth. Seek the word, seek truth.
Grace and peace to you
Charlene

I encourage as my brother did read Andrew Strom.

moe Mac,
Thank you,for that reminder. That EVERYONE should be careful and not to watch these videos. I went to watch it, to see that lie. And my heart is heavy that many are fooled by these and, would I go and watch pron to see the wrong in it, it is wicked so I should stay away such as this STAY away.... There is no good from it. Stay away. Stay away, they are not good to even watch. It can be good to expose lies. and warn others. But I strongly agree Don't WAST YOUR TIME> DON"T watch these Videos.

thank you moemac, thank you. as while as Mike thanks for your words.

Charlene

Welcome, Charlene. Thank you for humbling me, as usual, with your sincere humility. :-) I appreciate you, sister.

You know what, it is better to ignore this thread.

I say that, because the original poster has not commented since posting the videos, and has left everyone to argue amongst themselves.

This has happened in the past on this website, people posting articles and videos, and then disappear and have no further involvement in the thread, and leave others arguing amongst themselves.

Whether you agree or not, this thread is better left ignored.

enid wrote:
You know what, it is better to ignore this thread.

I say that, because the original poster has not commented since posting the videos, and has left everyone to argue amongst themselves.

This has happened in the past on this website, people posting articles and videos, and then disappear and have no further involvement in the thread, and leave others arguing amongst themselves.

Whether you agree or not, this thread is better left ignored.

Hello enid.I didn't leave and read the forum each day but didn't comment again on this thread because I don't like to argue in the way it's being argued here.If we were all in a room talking about these things I would be weeping.I'm a sesnitive person like that I guess :-)

I posted the videos to see what others thought because we here have been blessed by Steve Hill's Ministry.Disagreeing with something is ok since my husband and I disagree between ourselves on ocassion but when there's name calling and saying people are demonic and things like that I don't want to be a part of that because it's not who I am and I don't know enough about these things to get involved in the direction of the thread. There are more mature people here who know more about these things than I do. I'm sorry for posting the videos and causing this trouble.It wasn't my purpose to see this thread go where it has gone and I'm truly sorry for this.

Souls are hanging in the balance, and we are supposed to ignore this thread.
I don't believe in arguring with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, but souls are at stake, and
when we know something is false, and don't say anything about it to warn the Body of Christ, what does that make us?
I'm not arguring, but we do have to contend for the Faith. The Bible says we are to do this.
This is a last day deception.
If any Person, any Doctrine, any Denomination,
does not have Jesus Christ and the Cross at the Center of it, "Run for your Life."
I'll be 69 this month, and I've had to run for my life a few times.

God please keep us all from deception , by Your
Precious Word.
Please help the people who are being daceived. .
In Jesus Name

Hi Carolyn_L...

I'm sorry for posting the videos and causing this trouble.It wasn't my purpose to see this thread go where it has gone and I'm truly sorry for this.

Let me encourage you, sister, to not be disheartened by all of this. I'm not sure whether or not it was a good idea to post the links to the YouTube videos, but it is an interesting discussion. Many individuals at SermonIndex come from a background where they have had firsthand experience with certain charismatic ministries. Some of these were bad experiences (such as the one shared by brother Krispy). This is why they speak, because they speak out of great concern from personal experience.

I am a Pentecostal believer. However, I see quite a bit of issues that come from some Pentecostal or Charismatic circles. When we speak, we are often motivated by those things that we believe. But always know that there is an unseen disclaimer with every post. None of us are perfect and none of us have arrived to the point of infallibility (although I have seen a couple of people who have argued otherwise). We can each be instructed about these issues -- even if we do not completely agree on them.

Thank you for sharing and participating. And welcome to SermonIndex! If you ever need anything, simply speak to one of the Moderators or the Administrator ("sermonindex" aka "Greg"). This website is dedicated to seeing true Biblical revival in this world (rather than spiritual counterfeits). It also provides a library of resources -- mostly sermons -- from great men of God of the past and present (like Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, A. W. Tozer, David Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, etc...). You can use the MAIN MENU on the left of your screen to find AUDIO SERMONS, TEXT SERMONS, VIDEO SERMONS, PODCASTS, MUSIC, AUDIO BOOKS -- along with many other things.

So welcome to the SermonIndex community!

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Carolyn_L...

I'm sorry for posting the videos and causing this trouble.It wasn't my purpose to see this thread go where it has gone and I'm truly sorry for this.

I am not sorry that you posted this. While I haven't watched the videos yet, it has made me aware of the situation in Florida. I know who Steve Hill is. I know who Kilkpatrick is. I had never heard of this other guy. I had never heard of the current event in Florida.

Let me encourage you, sister, to not be disheartened by all of this. I'm not sure whether or not it was a good idea to post the links to the YouTube videos, but it is an interesting discussion. Many individuals at SermonIndex come from a background where they have had firsthand experience with certain charismatic ministries. Some of these were bad experiences (such as the one shared by brother Krispy). This is why they speak, because they speak out of great concern from personal experience.

I am a Pentecostal believer. However, I see quite a bit of issues that come from some Pentecostal or Charismatic circles. When we speak, we are often motivated by those things that we believe. But always know that there is an unseen disclaimer with every post. None of us are perfect and none of us have arrived to the point of infallibility (although I have seen a couple of people who have argued otherwise). We can each be instructed about these issues -- even if we do not completely agree on them.

Thank you for sharing and participating. And welcome to SermonIndex! If you ever need anything, simply speak to one of the Moderators or the Administrator ("sermonindex" aka "Greg"). This website is dedicated to seeing true Biblical revival in this world (rather than spiritual counterfeits). It also provides a library of resources -- mostly sermons -- from great men of God of the past and present (like Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, A. W. Tozer, David Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, etc...). You can use the MAIN MENU on the left of your screen to find AUDIO SERMONS, TEXT SERMONS, VIDEO SERMONS, PODCASTS, MUSIC, AUDIO BOOKS -- along with many other things.

So welcome to the SermonIndex community!

:-)

Thank you so much! I know we are told by the Word to expose the false. I just want to be able to do it with the right spirit and be able to talk about it in the right spirit.

Thank you for your welcome!

As for Greg, he and Eli Brayley were at our home in Canada some months back and had a small house meeting with Eli and Greg sharing. They are very real Christians! It was nice to have them in our home!

is it just me or did todd bentley have earings on ? on his mouth and ears ?

is it just me or did todd bentley have earings on ? on his mouth and ears ?

nothing really lol but i just saw earings on the guy and well i watched the videos, didnt really get much of a good vibe from them... earing and junk arent the best example specially when the Lord explains to us that our body is his temple. just making a note i guess

Quote:

"But today... hey, anything goes. There are no standards for Christians anymore. We want to see just how much like the world we can look, and modesty be forgotten."

Brother if i have ever heard true words these are it for sure, i finished seeing the videos and i say one thing; NO MAN OF GOD WHO WANTS REVIVAL STANDS BEFORE SHEEP WITH HIS EARS PIERCED AND PUTTING SHAME UPON THE LORDS TEMPLE. i dont care what anyone has to say about this, because the Lord has been very clear. Lord knows how much i wish i could resurrect Leonard Ravenhill and A.W Tozer >< and have them interview most American pastors

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

-1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord."

-Leviticus 19:28

"In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21 The rings, and nose jewels, 22 The changeable suits of apparel,and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils."

-Isaiah 3:18-23

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

-2 Timothy 3:1-7

anyway thats how i see it i think its pretty solid :)

Body Piercing - A Return to Paganism

In some of the most unexpected places we are confronted by a revival of the old tribal practices of body scarification, body piercing and body mutilationNose rings, eyebrow rings, belly rings, tongue studs, multiple earrings, nipple rings, tattoos and other disfigurements are more than an identifiable sub-culture – it is all part of an aggressive fashion statement which is challenging the Christian Church."Do not cut your bodies … or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord. " Leviticus 19:28

Unfortunately, most Church leaders have remained silent on this practice, even while some youth leaders and Bible College students are giving themselves over to body modification.
\t

"Priests must not shave their heads … or cut their bodies. They must be holy to their God and must not profane the Name of their God ... they are to be holy." Leviticus 21:5 – 6

As Christians, we are called to be holy, set apart and different from the world, consecrated to God. "Everybody’s doing it" is hardly an argument to justify Christian involvement. They very fact that pagans practice body piercing should be a compelling enough argument against Christians being conformed to the world.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light." 1 Peter 2:9
\tThe Scriptures are clear that we must treat our bodies with respect, they are not our own to do with as we wish. They belong to God, who made them and who purchased them with His own blood. Our bodies are to be temples of the Holy Spirit. We are to glorify God with our bodies.

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ Himself? … Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, Who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. Therefore honour God with your body." 1 Corinthians 6:15, 19 – 20

On the other hand, the Bible records how pagans abused their bodies. The false prophets of Baal "slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom until their blood flowed." (1 Kings 18:28).

The demon possessed man of Gadara cut himself with stones and ran around naked (Mark 5:5). It was the custom of the Ishmaelite men to wear gold earrings. (Judges 8:24).

Biblically, a pierced ear is a public indication of permanent slavery. When the Hebrews were led out of slavery in Egypt by Moses, they were urged "take off the gold earrings … so all the people took off their earrings … These are your gods, O Israel."
Exodus 32: 1-3

After God spoke to Jacob, he instructed his household to get rid of their idols and purify themselves. Along with their stone idols, they buried their earrings.

"So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, ‘Get rid of the foreign gods you have with you, and purify yourselves and change your clothes’ … so they gave Jacob all the foreign gods they had and the rings in their ears, and Jacob buried them." Genesis 35:2
\tThis has always been the response of pagan people when they’ve embraced the Gospel of Christ. From Papau New Guinea to the Amazon jungle, pagan tribes engage in body scarification, earrings, nose rings, tongue studs, multiple piercings and tattoos. Once converted to Christ, however, these tribes abandon all these body modification practices.

"Fear the Lord your God, serve Him only … Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the Lord your God … is a jealous God and His anger will burn against you … Do not test the Lord … Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees He has given you. Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you … in the future, when your sons asks you, ‘What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord your God has commanded you?’ ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand …" Deuteronomy 6:13 – 21

It is completely inappropriate for a Christian man to wear an earring – the mark of slavery. What may be appropriate for a woman is not necessarily appropriate for a man. What is practiced by the world is seldom acceptable for a Christian.

"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature, rather serve one another in love." Galatians 5:13

"Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil." 1 Peter 2:16

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

If something is prevalent and accepted in the world, that alone should be a compelling argument against Christians adopting their fashions and fads. We are called to be different. We are to honour God with our bodies.

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God – which is your spiritual worship. Do not conform any longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – His good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12: 1 – 2

Our bodies matter. They are to be presented to God as holy offerings – in a way that pleases God. We are not to follow the example of the pagans. Making holes in our bodies is hardly respecting them as temples of the Holy Spirit. Permanently disfiguring our bodies is blatant rebellion to our Creator and Redeemer.

"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul." 1 Peter 2:11

Part of the Biblical description of a harlot is that "she decked herself with rings and jewelry … but Me she forgot, declares the Lord." (Hosea 2:13)

"For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin." Psalm 36:2

"Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord." Lamentations 3:40

To draw attention to ourselves with these excessive fashion statements is hardly in keeping with the Biblical commands to be humble and modest (Proverbs 21:4; 1 Timothy 2: 9 - 10).

"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment … instead it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3: 3 - 4

The present obsession of many with body modification is a revival of tribalism. It involves a painful initiation rite, which produces an identification with a certain tribe, clan or sub-culture. The Kacipo people in Sudan stretch their lower lips to fit a saucer-sized pottery and they stretch their ear lobes to create huge holes and long earlobes. Amongst the Nuba tribes in Sudan, multiple earrings, nose rings, body scarification and body painting are prevalent. The Dinka and Nuer tribes in Sudan are easily identifiable by the pattern of scars across their foreheads.
\t

Amongst the Hindus - nose studs, belly rings, toe rings, tongue studs and eyebrow rings are common. Tattoos amongst the Amazon tribes identify the various members of a given tribe. In Papau New Guinea, all kinds of body scarification, tattoos and body mutilation distinguish the various tribes.

Among the tribes in Borneo, tattooing is mainly associated with head hunting (a visible sign of success) for men and the coming of age of women - in some cases it symbolizes their social status. Tattoos are part of the "rites of passage" and next to blackened teeth and long ear lobes, intricate tattoos on fingers, hands, lower arms, thighs, calves, and feet served as important elements of beauty for women.

A pagan view on the subject: "A tattoo is a complex signifier: it signals class; it signals sexuality; and it has specific content as a signifier: a depiction of an animal, a person, an abstract tribal design. The most usual motifs are signifiers of power and masculinity... But what the tattoo signals above all is the power one seizes over one's own body… To be branded or tattooed shows also that you have the requisite guts to join the group. It is not the most extreme or painful form of initiation, but it serves as a sign of pain and hence of resolution." (Crispen Sartwell)

"Tattooing is often a magical rite in the more traditional cultures, and the tattooist is respected as a priest or shaman." (Michelle Delio, Tattoo: The Exotic Art of Skin Decoration, p. 73)

And in the same way, eyebrow rings, nose rings, multiple earrings, nipple rings, belly rings and tongue studs distinguish identifiable sub-cultures in New York, London, Paris and other capitals of what is meant to be civilization.

"The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves." Isaiah 3:9

The interesting thing is that while so many Westerners rush into new age religions, body piercing and occultism, many millions in the tribes mentioned in Africa, South America, Asia and the Pacific islands, are being converted to Christ and are abandoning the body piercing practices of their pagan past.

It is very clear who are the Christians and who are the pagans in these mission fields. The pagans wear little or no clothing and they engage in a variety of body scarification, body piercing and/or tattoos. On the other hand, the Christians are easily identifiable – they wear clothes and they don’t engage in any body modification.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20

Of course, some older people will still have the scars and the holes – testimony of the pagan past before they were converted – but all earrings, eyebrow rings, nose rings and such like have been removed. And their children are free from these pagan disfigurements. It is unheard of in these areas for Christians to voluntarily pierce or tattoo their bodies. In fact, they are shocked when Western men visit them with ponytails and earrings.

"You are the children of the Lord your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, for you are a people holy to the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 14: 1 – 2

How then can we explain the widespread toleration and even practice of body piercing in far too many Christian Churches and even Bible Colleges and ministries in the West?

"Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple. Do not deceive yourselves …." 1 Corinthians 3: 16 – 18

Generally it starts off by assuming that if an earring is appropriate for a woman, then it is appropriate for men as well. Some women then reasoned that if men were going to wear an earring, then they would wear multiple earrings. And as so many in the world are wearing nose rings, eyebrow rings, belly rings, tongue studs, etc. then why shouldn’t we?

"You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred towards God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." James 4:4

As so many Christians have immersed themselves in pagan music, immoral videos and worldly amusements, it should not surprise us that so many of our youth are indistinguishable from their non-Christian friends. The mind-rotting, brain-numbing, soul-destroying trash that fills the ears, eyes and minds of our youth should be sufficient explanation for the backslidden, immoral and un-Christian behaviour, which now even includes professing Christians disfiguring their bodies with pagan piercings.

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:18

It is time for Youth leaders and Pastors to study what the Scripture teaches on this subject and then to boldly, and without compromise, preach on these passages and call those people who are defiling their bodies to repent. We need to take God’s Word seriously.

"Let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." 2 Corinthians 7:1

"May God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus." 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Dr. Peter Hammond

[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/INDEX.HTM]Frontline[/url]

KrispyKrittr wrote:

what does that have to do with the discussion brother??

Well... for some believers it has quite a bit to do with the discussion. Personally I am undecided on the issue, but many believes can point to many passages in the OT that forbid cutting, carving and marking the flesh. Why? Because [b]God[/b] equated it to paganism, and He called His people out to be seperate and holy unto Him.

But today... hey, anything goes. There are no standards for Christians anymore. We want to see just how much like the world we can look, and modesty be forgotten.

Like I said, for me, I'm undecided on that particular issue... but I do have to say that when I see a guy with piercings all over his face... my immediate thought is not "he must be a believer in Jesus Christ!". My first thought is "If you know whats good for you you'll stay at least 20 feet away from my kids, ya freak..."

Krispy

Also this verse should make anyone think twice, even as it may be "unclear" to some, still this verse makes me take this serious.

1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

We are bought with a price, with Gods sons blood, not with money or such otherthings,we have ben bought and the price was high, and when we have been sold, should we still claim the ownership and do as we like?

If any of you sold your house, or car or whatever. How often have you returned lets say next week to repaint that house? or car?

no you should not do that, because you are not the owner anymore, but so many do this to God, they have sold the house but refuse to move out.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? [b]You are not your own[/b], for you were bought with a price. [b]So glorify God in your body[/b].

1Co 6:19-20

what does that have to do with the discussion brother??

while i'm not a big fan of tatoos and piercings, i think talking about these things are like dealing with the fruit and not the root of a tree. what is the point of talking of his multiple piercings if he still believes in angelic visitations or that he can impart healings and etc.

*only focusing on external fruit can be a diversion from the true topic..... the root.*

*edited*

The only revival the
apostate church in America is going to get is a counterfeit revival
with counterfeit signs and wonders! Go see your gold dust, angel
feathers, and diamonds that fall from the ceiling! Go yield
yourselves to your animal demons! Go writhe like snakes! Go get
hands laid on you and knocked over by that preacher who’s
addicted to Internet pornography! This is your revival, apostate
Babylon! And yet you all remain in sin, wickedness, and
compromise such as never before. The earth itself is groaning in
pain under the weight of your transgressions."

-Josef Urban

I have been giving a lot of thought lately to the connection between compromise and the conscience. When the conscience is troubled there is no way for a person to truly preach with conviction. So where is the 'unction' coming from; or is there any unction at all?

My other thought is along the whole piercing thing and tattoo's. I understand if a person comes to Christ and have gotten many of these things; but I am sorely troubled by folk getting piercings and tattoos almost as if it is a ministry tool. Where are the days when folk still believed in being separate from the world? Why do so many in ministry- especially youth 'type' ministry see the need to continually try to beat the world at their own worldliness? Have we gone so far into sin and iniquity that none now live that remember the former days of separation and holiness?

When I see pins and bolts and nuts sticking out of a man's face the last thing I am thinking of is Jesus Christ. I am thinking of anything [i]but[/i] Jesus. As the oft quoted saying goes... "If they show you who they are believe them!"

RobertW wrote:
Why do so many in ministry- especially youth 'type' ministry see the need to continually try to beat the world at their own worldliness? Have we gone so far into sin and iniquity that none now live that remember the former days of separation and holiness?

There is no "wall" of separation anymore between the world and the church, you cant really see a difference.

What makes me most worried is this, if we accept these mens teachings, prophesies, then we can just as well accept the mormons and jehovas witnesses to, there is NO WHATSOEVER difference in mormons outside bible revelations and this mans.

I belive we are seeing prophesies in scripture come true before our eyes.

2Th 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The temple today is the church, some people have exsalted themself above what God has said and are in rebellion to God.

And the "trend" today is to appose anything that has through out the church history been considered real Christianity.

So like so many have said we need to warn people about these false prophets who fool people away from the truth.

2Co 11:13-15 [i]These people are false apostles. They have fooled you by disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.[/i]

NLT

I guess the question I have about Revival (keep in mind I am very much for revival), is- "What are we wanting to revive back to?" Some see revival as weeping for sin and repentance. Some see it as manifestations of some sort or the other. What are we asking for when we ask for revival? Are we asking God to get us back to a spiritual state in which His will and His concerns- become our will and our concerns? It seems to me than when revival really hits folk are going to get about the Master's business.

People want power- but what for? Do they desire an Isaiah 6 experience that so changes them that they declare, "Here am I Lord- send me!" That is what we need today. I see people going to hell by the droves it seems and so few people willing to really step up and move into ministry to help them. This is especially true in nursing homes and hospitals. These people are dying and often without God. They have been serving God their whole lives now (in some cases) and now they have little or no real fellowship at all with believers. I have been at the bedside of several dying people this year. I have watched them breath their last breath. Where are the Christians? For God's sake! Where is everyone?

Oh Robert...you have hit the nail my friend.

Why do so many in ministry- especially youth 'type' ministry see the need to continually try to beat the world at their own worldliness? Have we gone so far into sin and iniquity that none now live that remember the former days of separation and holiness?

In the 18th and 19th century the methodist grew their churches in this country by excluding the unrepentant sinners from their congregations. They evangelized but they did not confuse outreach to the world with building the body of Christ. In so doing the church leaders obeyed the call of separation. Such hedges seems restrictive to humanistic wisdom, but this Godly wisdom is precisely what allowed the church to grow. It preserved that vital holy environment that purposefully winnowed out the overly-sensitive seeker. This very hedge was heartily welcomed by the sorry sinner who wanted to leave the world, to join the new man, and to learn how to carry their own cross in experimental religion.

Today, the only experimental religion being pursued with all our resources of heart and pocketbook is experimenting with the unrepentant sinner in our churches. What music does he like? What clothes look 'authentic' to him? How can we earn the esteem of his own opinion? What flavor of coffee would make him feel more welcome? In fact, to modern ears, the very idea that we should exclude the sinner altogether from communion in the church, in a decent and humble manner according to scripture, is not even considerable.

The experiment of making the Gospel more sinner affirming is called 'being relevant'. Now this sincere, but terriblly misguided program of flirting with the unsaved does successfully grow the organization machinery of the church but alas, it neglects the disciples...that is it excludes the true church. It has utterly laid waste to Christianity in America. Too bad that the term 'replacement theology' has been taken, because this desire to preach what is relevant rather then what is righteous, to preach what is useful rather then what is truthful is the ultimate replacement.

O town full of commotion, O city of tumult and revelry? Your slain were not killed by the sword, nor did they die in battle. All your leaders have fled together; they have been captured without using the bow. All you who were caught were taken prisoner together...

Let's remember to pray for the sincere people in these places.

MC

Today, the only experimental religion being pursued with all our resources of heart and pocketbook is experimenting with the unrepentant sinner in our churches.

I think this is one of the reasons why lip service is offered to repentance and real revival. It is also why there is an 'advantage' (sadly) to having a lukewarm church. Revival, by default, will reduce the numbers initially. The unrepentant will roll out. However, if the revival is genuine then an effort will be made to get about the work and the church would fill up again.

Moreover, there are enough weary and vexed folk that truly want to see God move and the people live righteously that if a church would open it's doors with that ''marketing strategy" it would fill up. Just looking at it from a sheer carnal perspective. So it don't make sense to continue in lukewarmness no matter how you (ed. anyone that is) look at it.

I meant to add to the previous post that when I was a sinner and turned to Christ, I was ashamed of the things I used to do and who I used to be. What happened to being ashamed of who we [u]were[/u] and wanting to forget our past and [i]distance[/i] ourself from who we used to be? What happened to being 'ashamed' of our former behavior? It's almost as if some folk want to come to God and retain their sinful and godless ways and preferences and 'christianize' them. A mark of the New Birth is a terrible sense of shame with how we used to live and what we used to love. What happened?

If they say they have already took the medicine and you can see it hasn't helped them one bit, what do you do?

I think that some people are looking for a hypocrite to be their 'excuse' for their own personal rebellion. I typically say to people that uses hypocrites as excuses, "I hear what you are saying about the hypocrites. My question is, "Why are [i]you[/i] in disobedience?" "

Let me ask you, are you in total obedience with his word 24/7? I'm not, I have to ask forgivenss everyday. I'm talking about those people who support evil and are proud of it.

Certainly we need to walk in the Spirit. This is impossible without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. But we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us.

So I think the issue is one of resisting [i]or[/] yielding to the Holy Spirit. Obedience is mandatory. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, but surely this is not the pattern of our lives. The difference between a sinner and a Saint is that ones life is characterized by obedience to God while the other has the spirit of disobedience
(Eph 2).

I tried to be as honest with you as I could and you side stepped my question. I guess I can assume you are in total obedience 24/7.

There is no need for you to confess your sin to me and there is no need for me to confess my sin to you. I know I am not perfect. I am fully aware of my weaknesses. Are you trying to pick a fight? You will not have one from me. I'll leave off this discussion if that's the direction things will go. My focus is on the Todd Bentley and the subject of this 'revival'. I am very concerned about it as folk have asked me personally.

Moe mac's: The problem is, most people in America, if not all, have already heard the gospel many times. I think the problem is they have heard the gospel from so many liberals, who say one thing with their lips, and live another. When they see those professed born again Christian's sinful lifestyles and no values and they see no more difference in them than see in the world. When they see them supporting abortion, homosexual marriage, or at least supporting the leaders that support sin, it appears then to the lost, that the gospel is a sham, when they see peoples lifestyles have not improved or changed and they don't match the book and their lips.

My comments on hypocrisy were directed at this point you made. I in no way intended to mean I was 'in total obedience 24/7." The point I'm making is that there are a lot of hypocrites in the world. Many people use 'hypocrites' as an excuse to reject God. I am defining hypocrite as a person that professes Christ and yet lives a life characterized by disobedience.

I hope that helps explain where I was coming from on that. :-)

No sir if I was trying to pick a fight I I would have insinuated you were in rebellion against God because hypocrites troubled your spirit.

My apology, I guess I am missing the point. We should all be troubled by hypocrisy; but we should also be troubled by hypocrisy being used as an excuse to live a life of sin. We must guard ourselves against hypocrisy also, etc.

The trouble I am having with this whole Todd Bentley thing is how we have come to a place that folk cannot discern. Equally troubling is that there is a whole group of people waiting to add a 'Todd Bentley' to their list of names of people, ministries, and churches that are not doing right and they walk away from God with those as their excuse. We have to emphasize to folk that we will all give an account to God. One man's hypocrisy is not another man's excuse to sin.

This is the catch 22 I am finding among young Christians. You try to warn them about the wolves and they use the wolves as an example of how everyone is a hypocrite, etc. and they backslide.

Boy... for a few minutes there I thought I was gonna have to take you two out behind the barn!

Being out for a while makes me rusty at communicating in these forums. Being able to make posts that are non-offensive requires looking at what you write from many different directions. Words like 'you' don't necessarily mean the person you are talking to. So I have to be careful using generalities. since we don't know each other that well it is easy to be misunderstood. ;-) But, I could use a trip to the wood shed probably also. :-P

When sin is generalized US Christians ARE ALWAYS much more united and in agreement with each other.. but when we get specific on a certain sins and define and list them...then that is when the debate begins. Take the ten commandments for example. Someone who knows me well.. could justifiably argue.. that I don't do all do's and abstain from all the don't 24/7. Love thy neighbor as thy self... Am I as concerned with my neighbor as myself in my actions, with my money, etc.

This is really the material of a different thread, but simply put, there were 613 laws in the Old Testament. This was 'added to' by our Lord in the Gospels (if a person is keeping track of it). But the key is that we walk before God with a good and clear conscience. To him that 'knoweth' to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin. This is a conscious at the moment understanding of what God's will is and then choosing otherwise. We must walk in what we consciously know to be God's will. This is not the same as keeping all the laws perfectly- it is walking in the Spirit- fulfilling the law by our conduct - from the heart.