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Personal Election (not corporate)

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Logic

The unlearned have God electing some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

It is a fact that God is infinite in grace and benevalency, all loving and merciful. It is therefore impossible that he should choose or act arbitrarily in any case whatsoever. He must have good and sufficient reasons for every choice and every act.
Therefore, election is not an act of arbitrary choice from a sovereign will. It is not arbitrarily the choosing and acting from mere will alone, but from the wisdom of moral obligation and the priority of HIS righteousness (doing what is right without partiality).

There is another defense in the “Unconditional election” myth is that God does not have to save all.
Some say that God is not obligated to pardon all mankind because they are guilty in the first place. The example they give is that a judge is justified in pardoning one criminal and not the other.
However, if God would pardon one and not the other HE would be showing partiality in His pardoning if the two criminals are all together equal in there crimes, which all mankind are.
Furthermore, God does not pardon arbitrarily, HE pardons from the reason of mercy upon request. Nonetheless, God's mercy has conditions based upon standards of conduct (Matthew 18:32-35).

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Election does not imply any obstacle to the salvation of the non-elect; it only implies the defiance and impenitence of the non-elect.
The fact that God saves only some does not imply any hindrance to those who will not be saved, but the stubborn refusal to be saved of those who are not elected.
The fact that God saves only some does not imply that God does not want to save them, but that HE can not.
Atonement is required for the reason of proving the true worth of God and His character which the law represents in relation to the crime committed in order for Him to forgive sin.
The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven. He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness. This proves that the one atoned for knows the true value of the one who is forgiving so he knows that he can not take this whole thing lightly.
If the one refuses to acknowledge the true value and worth of God and refuses to meet the set conditions in order to be forgiven; if he takes lightly all that God has said and done to forgive, God can not forgive.

No one can possibly deny that God has made it possible for salvation of all. He certainly offers to save all, and has done all HE could and is doing all HE can do to save as many as HE can.
Those who are not elected may be saved, if they will comply with the set conditions, which they are able to do.
These conditions are not impossible to anyone; God can no give anything more than that HE has already given to all mankind.

There is no injustice to the non-elect by the election of only some. If he offers salvation to all upon terms that HE has set and if he does all he can for the salvation of all, shall some complain about God saving only some and not all?
The doctrine of election will damn no one by God's choice, but by the stubborn rebellion of the unrepentant.
Election does not secure the salvation of the elect irrespective of their character and conduct; election does it throw any obstacle in the way of the salvation of the non-elect.
God not electing according to what they deserve does them no injustice; and surely his exercising grace in the salvation of the elect is no act of injustice to the non-elect, for they must have received the same amount of grace as was bestowed upon the elect. Their judgment is not because they were not elected, but because they refused to repent.

This will appear to be true if we take into consideration the fact that the only reason why the non-elect will not be saved is because they stubbornly refuse salvation.
If the non-elect are condemned just because they are non-elect and not only because they did not repent, they would have a valid complaint for their condemnation. It would be that God did not do all HE could to forgive them without being partial.

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But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13)

“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.” (Job 42:2)

For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Psalm 135:5-6)

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:9-1

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Humanism: A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth; the doctrine emphasizing a person’s capacity for self-realization through reason

Reformed Theology - the theological system which emphasizes the omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone

If you haven’t done so already, please prayerfully read the scripture I have placed at the beginning of this chapter as well as the definitions for “Humanism” and “Reformed Theology.”

God is sovereign. He is omnipotent. He is perfect. He is Holy. He is Just. He is immutable. That means He does not change. He spoke His truth at the beginning of creation and that truth is still the truth now and will be for all eternity. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9 that His thoughts and ways are not as ours are. In fact His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours. When I say “ours” I am speaking of all mankind. There are no exceptions. God said this to Isaiah and Isaiah wrote it down. It is given to us in the Bible which is the perfect Word of God.

Take those statements and compare them with Romans 3:9-18. Now who has a problem? Is it God or is it Man? All men, women and children are sinners. All descendants of Adam are sinners. We are born sinners. Sin lives in us. It separates us from God who is Holy and Perfect. Many claim that this gap between Man and God is easily bridged by good men exercising their Free Will to choose to accept God’s offer of grace. However, the Word of God says something very different.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

This word “dead” in this passage is the Greek word “Nekros.” It can mean natural death, but of course that meaning would be ludicrous in this context. In this passage the meaning is clear. Paul was telling us that the natural, unsaved person’s soul is separated from the enlivening influences of divine light and spirit as a dead body is separated from the material light and air. The spiritual condition of a lost person, an unregenerate person, is one of death. There is no spiritual capability in them. They are completely controlled by their soul while their spirit is cutoff from God because of the presence of sin.

What is the solution? Look again at Ephesians 2:1-10. While we were in our sins God provided a way for hopelessly lost people to be saved. Is it by those lost people choosing to be saved? The humanist says that man is smart enough to make that decision through reason. However, the Bible says the opposite. No one seeks after God. No one seeks after righteousness. So how do sinful people get saved?

Salvation is by grace through faith. That salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. Boasting is excluded. (Romans 3:27) Therefore, this act of acquiring saving faith must come about by some means that excludes Man’s ability to boast about it. However, if it is by choice then all saved people can boast. They can say that they made the right decision while lost people haven’t. There must be something in them that is superior to those who are still in their sins. Therefore, that form of salvation is in serious conflict with scripture. Salvation, to be biblical, must come about in such a way that excludes the possibility of saved people being able to boast about it.

Humanism says that God made the universe and provided salvation for the happiness of Man. After all, everything God does is for the happiness of Man isn’t it? Since God does all of this for Man’s happiness then salvation must be a reward to those who choose to do right so they can be happy. Is this Biblical? I can’t find that scenario anywhere in scripture.

Humanism says that the end of all things is for the happiness of Man. However, the Bible says that God does everything for His own glory. Why did He provide this gracious salvation for sinful men? Was it to make Humanism true? Was it to make Man happy? Or was it to bring God glory? It is for God’s glory alone.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

God did not leave salvation of Men up to Men. Why? If it was left up to Men then no one could be saved. Remember Romans 3. No one seeks after God. No one does right. It would never happen. Therefore, God chose or elected all of His people before creation. He looked into the future and foreknew or fore-loved His people. He placed His affection and purpose on them. Why? Was it because they deserved it? No, remember, no one deserves salvation. That is why salvation must be by grace alone.

God elected His people and predestined that they should be conformed unto the image of His Son. What criteria did He use? This decision was according to the counsel of His will and it was to the praise of His glory. Therefore, this salvation plan would be His work alone. If not then how could it be for His glory alone?

This salvation would accomplish the forgiveness of the elect’s sins. Of course we know that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as the Lamb of God accomplished this. It bought the salvation of the elect. How does an elect sinner get saved?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

God has commanded believers to preach the Gospel. This presenting of the Gospel is used by the Holy Spirit to plow the heart of the elect. This preaching is the general call of the Gospel. However, no one is saved until the Holy Spirit makes the call Effectual to them. That is the calling mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This is the actual regeneration of the heart of a person. This regeneration changes a spiritually dead person into a new creation. This new creation can now respond to the Gospel. This regeneration enables the new believer to see their utter lostness before a Holy and Just God. They see their sin and their unworthiness before Him. In light of this he or she believes and repents. God then immediately justifies them. This is Justification by Faith. This is the same as God declaring Abraham righteous because He believed God. God follows our justification with adoption into His family and begins the sanctification process which prepares us for glorification in eternity.

Why did I go through all of that? I wanted to contrast what the Bible teaches about salvation with how the Compromised Church does it. Humanism has so penetrated the Church to the point where it has been glossed and covered over with the doctrines of Men. It sounds Biblical. It sounds “Churchy.” Here are a few examples. “Try Jesus! You’ve done things your way long enough. Put Jesus in your life so it will be better! Ask Jesus to come into your heart so that you won’t go to Hell.”

The genuine Gospel presentation that the Holy Spirit uses to prepare the Hearts of those He will effectually call contrasts God’s Holiness and Righteousness and Justice with Man’s sinfulness and spiritual bankruptcy. The Compromised Church’s version of the Gospel is more like a sales pitch. It is geared to making salvation appealing to lost people by making it cheap. The Genuine Gospel is costly. Jesus said that to be His disciple we have to deny self and take up our cross and follow Him. That means dying to self. That is costly grace. The cheap grace of the Compromised Church does not even mention repentance or the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

What is the end result of this? Those who are saved by the genuine Gospel are God’s Elect who have regenerated hearts and are new creations. Those who think they are saved by the easy-believism of the Compromised Church are simply religious. There has been no regenerative work in their hearts. They are not genuine.

Humanism’s god is Man. The humanists may acknowledge God, but only as a means to an end. Their version of Christianity is not Biblical. It is full of fleshly and worldly ways. It is more for entertainment rather than for God’s glory alone. Since the Holy Spirit is not in it they must counterfeit His presence with High Octane music and false spirituality that is nothing more than people being emotional.

The Genuine Church’s God is God Almighty, the Living God. He will be no one’s means to and end. He is the end of all things. Those who know Him will be those He has elected, called, regenerated, justified, adopted, sanctified and glorified. Their worship of God is in Spirit and Truth. They are not perfect, but are growing in grace and maturity according to God’s will.

The Compromised Church is not of God. Even though these churches may say they are serving and worshipping God, they are, in fact, serving Man. They may be very entertaining and appealing places of worship, but that is because they are geared to appeal to the flesh. Genuine worship of the Living God never appeals to the flesh. Instead, it is God focused. It reveals what God has done or it emphasizes His attributes. In contrast the worship in the Compromised Church focuses on what people do or have done or what benefit they get from their religion.

by Mike Ratliff

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The [b]unlearned[/b] have God electing some with out purpose...

Well, there is a lot I could say about this post, but do not wish to get into it all this morning.

However, I will say this... calling those who may disagree with a particular aspect of a systematic theology "unlearned" is unneccessary. It wreaks of an elitist attitude, and implies that because you believe a certain way you are smart and learn-ed... and anyone who may disagree with you is either stupid and uneducated.

This is an ungodly attitude.

It's one thing for someone to come here and promote something like WOF, or the Lakeland "revival", and not know enough scripture to back up their position. But there are plenty of "well educated" theolgians out there that would disagree with this article.

Using words like "unlearned" is merely an insulting "cheap-shot" way of shutting up those who would oppose... because no one wants to be considered "unlearned". And the use of "Humanism" in this thread is also wrong. This is nothing more than higher level name calling. "You are not Reformed? Then you're a humanist!"

Those who do not subscribe to particular aspects are not Humanists. This is a silly assertion.

It's a poor way to present a theological position.

Krispy

L
Logic


KrispyKrittr wrote:
The [b]unlearned[/b] have God electing some with out purpose...
calling those who may disagree with a particular aspect of a systematic theology "unlearned" is unneccessary. It wreaks of an elitist attitude, and implies that because you believe a certain way you are smart and learn-ed... and anyone who may disagree with you is either stupid and uneducated.
Sorry, my point was that it implies that one has not though their belifes all the way through to the logical conclusion.

Using words like "unlearned" is merely an insulting "cheap-shot" way of shutting up those who would oppose... because no one wants to be considered "unlearned"
Is one learned if they believe God elects arbitrarily?

Huminist? I am farthest from that.
I believe that God must work in the paramiters of logic and reason.
If ones says that I am using "human logic", "human reasoning" and "human justice", what other kind of logice and reason is there?

They will say that human every thing is of the "fallen nature" and we should not rely on it. But, that is all we have, we all use "human logic", "human reasoning" and "human justice" even to interperat divine things.

It's a poor way to present a theological position.
I am sorry, But I remeber being up set while I wrote this.
The person who unduced me, made God out to be a devilish tyrant, which alot of "Reformed" and Calvinists do.

If you would, please rufute my post, point by point and I will give my best reason for stating what I did.

I will be persuaded by the truth. All truth makes sence and is "humanly" logical and is seen by "human" reason, which is also in the relm of "huiman" Justice"

This is not Humanism, but reality.

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:

But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13...ect...

I am getting back with you soon.

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sermonindex

Would we have the power of God so limited as to be unable to do more than our mind can comprehend? The Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the divine will. Whenever we speak of it, we are speaking of the supreme standard of justice. But when justice clearly appears, why should we raise any question of injustice? Let us not, therefore, be ashamed to stop their mouths after the example of Paul. Whenever they presume to carp, let us begin to repeat: Who are ye,miserable men, that bring an accusation against God, and bring it because he does not adapt the greatness of his works to your meager capacity? As if every thing must be perverse that is hidden from the flesh. The immensity of the divine judgments is known to you by clear experience. You know that they are called "a great deep", (Ps. 36: 6.)Now, look at the narrowness of your own minds and say whether it can comprehend the decrees of God. Why then should you, by infatuated inquisitiveness, plunge yourselves into an abyss which reason itself tells you will prove your destruction? Why are you not deterred, in some degree at least, by what the Book of Job, as well as the Prophetical books declare concerning the incomprehensible wisdom and dreadful power of God? If your mind is troubled, decline not to embrace this counsel , "You a man expect an answer from me: I also am a man. Wherefore, let us both listen to him who says, 'O man, who art thou?' Believing ignorance is better than presumptuous knowledge.Seek merits; you will find nought but punishment. O the height! Peter denies, a thief believes. O the height! Do you ask the reason? I will tremble at the height. Reason you, I will wonder; dispute you, I will believe. I see the height; I cannot sound the depth. Paul found rest, because he found wonder. He calls the judgments of God 'unsearchable;' and have you come to search them? He says that his ways are 'past finding out,' and do you seek to find them out?" We shall gain nothing by proceeding farther. For neither will the Lord satisfy the petulance of these men, nor does he need any other defense than that which he used by his Spirit, who spoke by the mouth of Paul. We unlearn the art of speaking well when we cease to speak with God.

The punishment of the non-elect was not the ultimate end of their creation, but the glory of God. It is frequently objected that predestination implies, "God makes some persons on purpose to damn them," but this we never advanced; nay, we utterly reject it as equally unworthy of God to do and of a rational being to suppose. The grand, principal end, proposed by the Deity to Himself in His formation of all things, and of mankind in particular, was the manifestation and display of His own glorious attributes. His ultimate scope in the creation of the elect is to evidence and make known by their salvation the unsearchable riches of His power and wisdom, mercy and love, and the creation of the non-elect is for the display of His justice, power, sovereignty, holiness and truth. So that nothing can be more certain than the declaration of the text, "The Lord hath made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov.16:4). On one hand, the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction,in order that God may "show His wrath and make His power known," and manifest the greatness of His patience and longsuffering (Rom. 9:32). On the other hand, He afore prepared the elect to salvation, that on them He might demonstrate "the riches of His glory and mercy" (ver 23). As, therefore, God Himself is the sole Author and efficient of all His own actions, so is He likewise the supreme end to which they lead and in which they terminate. " Sin," says the apostle, "entered into the world by one man," meaning by Adam, consequently if I hold a book or a stone in my hand, my holding it is the immediate cause of its not falling; but if I let it go, my letting it go is not the immediate cause of its falling: it is carried downwards by its own gravity, which is therefore the causa proxima effectus, the proper and immediate cause of its descent. It is true, if I had kept my hold of it, it would not have fallen, yet still the immediate, direct cause of its fall is its own weight, not my quitting my hold. The application of this to the providence of God, as concerned in sinful events, is easy. Without God, there could have been no creation; without creation, no creatures; without creatures, no sin. It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense - that He should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil - but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity at all in this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good, even though He should destroy all men. It is not to be understood," says he, "as if God found men good, wise and tractable, and then made them wicked, foolish and obdurate; but God, finding them depraved, judicially and powerfully excites them just as they are (unless it is His will to regenerate any of them), and, by thus exciting them, they become more blind and obstinate than they were before. As Lord or Sovereign of all, He does as He will (and has a most unquestionable right to do so) with His own, and in particular fixes and determines the everlasting state of every individual person, as He sees fit. It is essential to absolute sovereignty that the sovereign have it in his power to dispose of those over whom his jurisdiction extends, just as he pleases, without being accountable to any; and God, whose authority is unbounded, none being exempt from it, may, with the strictest holiness and justice, love or hate, elect or reprobate, save or destroy any of His creatures, whether human or angelic, according to His own free pleasure and sovereign purpose. Whatever things God wills or does are not willed and done by Him because they were in their own nature and previously to His willing them, just and right, or because, from their intrinsic fitness, He ought to will and do them; but they are therefore just, right and proper because He, who is holiness itself, wills and does them. Hence, Abraham looked upon it as a righteous action to slay his innocent son. Why did he so esteem it, because the law of God authorised murder? No; for, on the contrary, both the law of God and the law of nature peremptorily forbade it; but the holy patriarch well knew that the will of God is the only rule of justice, and that what He pleases to command is, on that very account, just and righteous It follows that, although our works are to be examined by the revealed will of God, and be denominated materially good or evil, as they agree or disagree with it, yet the works of God Himself cannot be brought to any test whatever; for, His will being the grand universal law, He Himself cannot be, properly speaking, subject to or obliged by any law superior to that. Many things are done by Him, such as choosing and reprobating men, without any respect had to their works; suffering people to fall into sin, when, if it so pleased Him, He might prevent it; leaving many back sliding professors to go on and perish in their apostacy, when it is in His Divine power to sanctify and set them right; drawing some by His grace, and permitting many others to continue in sin and unregeneracy; condemning those to future misery whom, if He pleased, He could undoubtedly save; with innumerable instances of the like nature (which might be mentioned), and which, if done by us, would be apparently unjust, inasmuch as they would not square with the revealed will of God, which is the great and only safe rule of our practice. But when He does these and such like things, they cannot but be holy, equitable and worthy of Himself; for, since His will is essentially and unchangeably just, whatever He does, in consequence of that will, must be just and good likewise. I would infer that they who deny the power God has of doing as He will with His creatures, and exclaim against unconditional decrees as cruel, tyrannical and unjust, either know not what they say nor whereof they affirm, or are wilful blasphemers of His name and perverse rebels against His sovereignty, to which, at last, however unwillingly, they will be forced to submit. It follows that, whatever favour is bestowed on us, whatever good thing is in us or wrought by us, whether in will, word or deed, and whatever blessings else we receive from God, from election quite home to glorification, all proceed, merely and entirely, from the good pleasure of His will and His mercy towards us in Christ Jesus. To Him therefore the praise is due, who putteth the difference between man and man by having compassion on some and not on others. (JZ) PRAISE GOD!

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Christinyou

I think God is pretty up front and plain about who is in charge of the choosing.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall He teach in the way that he shall choose.

In the way that he shall choose - The way that the person ought to choose; or, in other words, in the right way. There is none that feareth the Lord. It is not the way that God shall choose, but the way that the pious person ought to choose, but will not. God will so instruct him that chooses that he shall find the true path.

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The fulness of it:

Romans 9:8-24 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip

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I believe most on SI would be familiar with the name Isaac Watts, known for his many great hymns. His classic book "Logic: The Right Use of Reason in The Inquiry After Truth" may be of interest if indeed it is logic one would know.

An excerpt: "As the first work of the mind is perception, whereby our ideas are framed, and the second is judgment, which joins or disjoins our ideas, and forms a proposition; so the third operation of the mind is reasoning, which joins several propositions together, and makes a syllogism, that is, an argument whereby we are wont to infer some things that are less known, from truths which are more evident" (page 270)

A much smaller work, yet highly recommended as well would be that by Gordon Haddon Clarke entitled, "LOGIC".


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me". John 6:44,45


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
- Romans 10:13

This includes WHOSOEVER. That means anyone and everyone.

I've often laughed at the attempt to undermine the idea of a "free will" in regard to salvation and the security of the believer. By focusing so much on the idea of predestination, election, etc... -- it is as some believe that nothing that we do makes a difference. But "calling upon the name of the Lord" makes a difference.

God is eternal. As Isaiah said, He knows the end from the beginning. He is on the outside of time looking in. From such a perspective, God knew whether we were going to serve Him or neglect Him. I feel that this is the extent of our "election." From the timelessness of Eternity, God knows who will ultimately choose Him and who will ultimately reject Him. But that doesn't make free will any less important. To be one of those who God already knew (and knows) will be one of His elect, we must still call upon the name of the Lord. Otherwise, I can say with certainty that you are NOT one of the "elect."

By his writings, we know that acclaimed English physicist Stephen Hawking is certainly not a believer. Yet he made a funny remark in his book, [i]A Brief History of Time[/i]. He said, "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."

If our ultimate "election" is already determined, then why do we participate in anything? It seem pointless if our eternal condition is already CHOSEN by God. But, if we are ultimately the choosers of our own destiny, then the outcome of our lives -- already known by God since before the foundations of the world were laid -- is still ultimately up to our decisions to call upon the Lord.

:-)

BTW...

While God formed us (like clay in the hands of a potter), he didn't form our "free will." Free will is what allowed Adam and Eve to disobey. It is also why so many still choose to walk away from Him. We are not robots, puppets or even fish in a fishtank called "life" that follow identical patterns of movement according to the will of our Creator. We choose to have our being in Him, just as many choose to neglect Him. God draws ALL MEN to come unto Him; yet, only a few choose to respond to that call. He did, after all, love and die for the entire world (John 3:16-17).

L
Logic

wisevirgin:

If you wanting to refute my post, it is best by refuting point by point as you will see, I have made points already to your response.
The challenge that you face is by what criteria does He choose to elect?
You give no response to this question, which is the basis of my entire post.

Do you claim that God elects upon arbitrary reasons or by certain criteria?
What are these criteria?

Furthermore, You built a straw man, which I will help you burn. The straw man of Humanism, is not anything that I promote.
I never claimed Humanism in my post or gave anything that implies it.

Humanism: A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth; the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason
I am not promoting Humanism.

Logic: n. [L. id; Gr. from reason, to speak.]
The art of thinking and reasoning justly.
Logic is the art of using reason well in our inquiries after truth, and the communication of it to others.
Correct reasoning implies correct thinking and legitimate inferences from premises, which are principles assumed or admitted to be justifiable. Logic then includes the art of thinking, as well as the art of reasoning.
The purpose of logic is to direct the intellectual powers in the investigation of truth, and in the communication of it to others.

Reformed Theology - emphasizes the omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone
Reformed Theology - the omnipotence of God makes Him to be a tyrannical oppressor of those whom he damns by partiality.

Choosing whom He will save arbitrarily, By will only; despotically.
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty which is abused to excessive indulgence, contempt of the just restraints of law, morality and propriety of behavior, decency and grace.

I have not set my points on humanism but by reason and logic which upholds justice.

You have God saving anybody for no reason at all accept that "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

You are forgetting that salvation is by grace and faith alone, and if it is up to God that He is responsible to provide the faith first in order to save, then you make God responsible for the lack of faith of those whom He damns.

God is sovereign. He is omnipotent. He is perfect. He is Holy. He is Just. He is immutable. That means He does not change. He spoke His truth at the beginning of creation and that truth is still the truth now and will be for all eternity. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9 that His thoughts and ways are not as ours are. In fact His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours. When I say “ours” I am speaking of all mankind. There are no exceptions. God said this to Isaiah and Isaiah wrote it down. It is given to us in the Bible which is the perfect Word of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9 actually proves my case, for it is up to the person to forsake his way before God will have mercy upon him and abundantly pardon him.
This is not according to an arbitrary act of sovereignty and omnipotence but of responding to obedience to His commands.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Even the certain king would not pardon and/or have mercy upon the man who begged for mercy and forgiveness because he did not do his part.(Matthew 18:32-35)
Furthermore, the man had to ask for mercy first before the King would forgive, it was not arbitrary.

Take those statements and compare them with Romans 3:9-18. Now who has a problem? Is it God or is it Man? All men, women and children are sinners. All descendants of Adam are sinners. We are born sinners. Sin lives in us.
Sin is not an entity that lives, not to mention that would live "in us".
Man is a sinner by choice. If it wasn't by choice, he'd be innocent.

It separates us from God who is Holy and Perfect. Many claim that this gap between Man and God is easily bridged by good men exercising their Free Will to choose to accept God's offer of grace. However, the Word of God says something very different.
You are greatly misinformed, if not ignoring the facts.
Why does God command for men to repent?
If it isn't by choice, God would not command it for people to choose to obey or disobey?

This word “dead” in this passage is the Greek word “Nekros.” It can mean natural death, but of course that meaning would be ludicrous in this context. In this passage the meaning is clear. Paul was telling us that the natural, unsaved person's soul is separated from the enlivening influences of divine light and spirit as a dead body is separated from the material light and air.
A dead body is not dead because it is separated from the material light and air, but because the spirit is separated from the body (James 1:2)

The spiritual condition of a lost person, an unregenerate person, is one of death.
Spiritual death is only having no relationship with God, that is all, nothing else.

There is no spiritual capability in them.
Faith is not a spiritual capability.
Fact is, all mankind has faith, but they choose to put their faith in/on the wrong object/person.
There is not difference between "Salviffic faith" and other faith, but whom/what one puts their faith on/in.

They are completely controlled by their soul while their spirit is cut off from God because of the presence of sin.
Scripture never gives the being controlled of the soul to be wrong, but only the flesh.

The humanist says that man is smart enough to make that decision through reason. However, the Bible says the opposite. No one seeks after God. No one seeks after righteousness. So how do sinful people get saved?
One may seek the truth and find God in the process.

Salvation is by grace through faith. That salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. Boasting is excluded.
The first half of the verse Ephesians 2:8 belongs together, “For by grace you have been saved through faith” – dia pisteôs functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesôsmenoi.

Likewise, the second half is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,.”

Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”
Ephesians 2:8 is a process of salvation, the way you put it is eliminating the process and jumping straight to the salvation.

(Romans 3:27) Therefore, this act of acquiring saving faith must come about by some means that excludes Man's ability to boast about it.
There is not difference between "Salviffic faith" and other faith, but whom/what one puts their faith on/in.
There is nothing to boast about in humbling ones self to repent.
There is nothing to boast about in obedience to the command to repent(Acts 17:30)
There is nothing to boast about the ability to believing(having faith).

However, if it is by choice then all saved people can boast
How so?
If it is a command and we have a choice to rebel, then we must have choice to obey.
Obedience is not a "work" which is against salvation, it is with salvation, by acknowledging the truth that is revealed.

They can say that they made the right decision while lost people haven't. There must be something in them that is superior to those who are still in their sins.
Nothing superior. How is making the correct choice a superiority?
Making the correct choice is commanded, it is our obligation & duty; none of these are commendable or to boast about.

Is it like we will be boasting in heaven like this, "Hey, hey, I obeyed that which I was commanded to do.
I am so proud to admit my sin.
I am so proud to admit my wretchedness.
I am so proud to admit that I was on my way to hell.
I am so proud to admit that I rebelled against the truth.
I am so proud to admit that I needed Jesus to save me from God's wrath.
I am so proud to admit it was my entire fault.

God elected His people and predestined that they should be conformed unto the image of His Son. What criteria did He use? This decision was according to the counsel of His will and it was to the praise of His glory. Therefore, this salvation plan would be His work alone. If not then how could it be for His glory alone?
These are ambiguous reasons, they don't tell us the criteria on which He chose the Elect.
There must be criteria by which He chose to elect, otherwise it is all arbitrary.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)
Foreknowledge is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations because I foreknew that she would choose it.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I foreknow will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
Romans 8:29

God has commanded believers to preach the Gospel. This presenting of the Gospel is used by the Holy Spirit to plow the heart of the elect. This preaching is the general call of the Gospel. However, no one is saved until the Holy Spirit makes the call Effectual to them. That is the calling mentioned in Romans 8:29-30.
The challenge that you face is by what criteria does He chose to elect?
This is the whole gist of my post.

Do you claim that God elect upon arbitrary reasons or by certain criteria?
What are these criteria?

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
The Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed.
This is not the All loving, infinite in grace Lord who does have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, but that he should turn from his ways, and live(Ezekiel 18:23,32&33:11, Lam 3:33,)
You describe a devil.
God would not create sentient beings for the sole purpose of being tormented eternaly.

Why he willed it is not ours to ask
How so?

The punishment of the non-elect was not the ultimate end of their creation, but the glory of God. It is frequently objected that predestination implies, "God makes some persons on purpose to damn them," but this we never advanced; nay, we utterly reject it as equally unworthy of God to do and of a rational being to suppose.
If God does not make some persons on purpose to damn them, why does HE not elect them?

the creation of the non-elect is for the display of His justice, power, sovereignty, holiness and truth.
Actualy, the non-elect are non-elect because of judgment. That is the only reason for damnation.
Judgment only comes from willful,intentional rebelion & disobedience.
One can not be judged guilty for being created as a non-elect.

So that nothing can be more certain than the declaration of the text, "The Lord hath made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov.16:4).
Prov.16:4 The Lord has worked all for Himself, And also the wicked [works] for a day of evil. (Youngs)
Or
The LORD has done all for an answer, even the wicked does all for the day of evil.

On one hand, the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, in order that God may "show His wrath and make His power known," and manifest the greatness of His patience and longsuffering (Rom. 9:32).
God does not create vessles of wrath from the behining, they end up as vessles of wrath because of judgment.

. It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense - that He should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil - but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity at all in this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good, even though He should destroy all men.
God would need a justifiable reason to do so.

Whatever things God wills or does are not willed and done by Him because they were in their own nature and previously to His willing them, just and right, or because, from their intrinsic fitness, He ought to will and do them; but they are therefore just, right and proper because He, who is holiness itself, wills and does them. Hence, Abraham looked upon it as a righteous action to slay his innocent son. Why did he so esteem it, because the law of God authorised murder? No; for, on the contrary, both the law of God and the law of nature peremptorily forbade it; but the holy patriarch well knew that the will of God is the only rule of justic
That is backward, it is not "the will of God is the only rule of justice", but, rule of justice is the only will of God.
Furthermore, the law was "just and right" and they had intrinsic fitness previously to His willing them.
The law stems from Gods very own nature. There was good and evil before the law pointed it out.

Furthermore, Having Abraham to slay his innocent son would not have been murder, because he knew that Hod would raise his son from the dead(Hebrews 11:17-19) It would have been murder if Isaac would have never rose from the dead.

and that what He pleases to command is, on that very account, just and righteous It follows that, although our works are to be examined by the revealed will of God, and be denominated materially good or evil, as they agree or disagree with it, yet the works of God Himself cannot be brought to any test whatever; for, His will being the grand universal law, He Himself cannot be, properly speaking, subject to or obliged by any law superior to that.
The law is not founded in mere randomness, but in the Personhood of God, it is a representation of who He is. It is part of the foundation of reality.
The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the LawGiver also to guide and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the LawGiver (Galatians3:24)

When you say that God needs not to abide by law, you are claiming that HE is lawless and if HE does anything against the law, it automatically becomes leagal just because he does it.

This is rediculous!.

Many things are done by Him, such as choosing and reprobating men, without any respect had to their works
God reprobares men out of judgment!
Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a reprobate mind because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge
...suffering people to fall into sin, when, if it so pleased Him
What!?! God being pleased with men falling into sin?

Did you actual read this before you posted it?
This belongs it the trash and should not be taught, or read to or by the vulnerable.

R
roaringlamb

Let me say.....

Ahh never mind, we've been through this before.

Seriously brother logic, can't you just leave it alone? Leave us poor Reformed folks to our "illogical" and "uneducated" theology.

After all, we "chose" to believe it ;-)

Unsaved man has a will set on sin and self period, end of story.

Unless his heart is changed, he will always desire sin. There is only One who can give Spiritual life and IT IS NOT any human being since all humans are dead in sin.

Learn to be comfortable with the grey areas brother. God elects who He will, and those whom He has elected will be saved because Christ's death has atoned for their sins and Christ intercedes for them.

Simple, easy, concise.

Can we talk about something else now?

S
sermonindex

Rom. 10:13,14
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

WHOSOEVER is the greek word Pas

Definition - individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan. "Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and HAS NOT RESTRICTED HIS REDEMPTION TO EITHER JEW OR GENTILE ...

THUS SAITH THE LORD:
"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy"
Exodus 33:19. (see also Romans 9:8-24)
"I, even I, am He, and there is no God with Me. I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand"
Deuteronomy. 32:39.
"Behold He breaketh down, and it cannot be built again; He shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening"
Job 12:14.
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?"
Dan. 4:35.
"Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began?"
II Timothy 1:9.
It was God's sovereign will that fixed the time of my birth. It is the same will that has fixed the day of my death. And was not the day of my conversion fixed as certainly by the same will? Or will any but "the fool" say that God has fixed by His will the day of our birth and death, but leaves us to fix the day of our conversion by our own will; that is, leave us to decide whether we shall be converted or not? If the day of conversion be fixed, then it cannot be left to be determined by our own will. God determined, where and when, and how we should be born; and so He has determined where, and when, and how we shall be born again. If so, His will must go before ours in believing; and it is just because His will goes before ours that we become willing to believe. Were it not for this, we should never have believed at all. If man's will precedes God's will in everything relating to himself, then I do not see how any of God's plans can be carried into effect. Man would be left to manage the world in his own way. God must not fix the time of his conversion, for that would be an interference with man's responsibility. Nay, He must not fix that he shall be converted at all, for that must be left to himself and to his own will. He must not fix how many are to be converted, for that would be making His own invitation a mere mockery, and man's responsibility a pretence! He may turn a stray star into its course again by a direct forth-putting of power, and be unchallenged for interference with the laws of nature. But to stretch out His arm and arrest a human will in its devious course, so as to turn it back again to holiness, is an unwarrantable exercise of His power, and an encroachment upon man's liberty! What a world! where man gets all his own way, where God is not allowed to interfere, except in the way that man calls lawful! What a world! where everything turns upon man's will;--where the whole current of events in the world or in the church is regulated, shaped, impelled by man's will alone. God's will is but a secondary thing. Its part is to watch events, and follow in the track of man's! Man wills, and God must say-Amen!
In all this opposition to the absolute will of God, we see the self-will of the last days manifesting itself. Man wanted to be a god at the first, and he continues the struggle to the last. He is resolved that his will shall take the precedence of God's. In the last Antichrist, this self-will shall be summed up and exhibited. He is the king that is to do "according to his will". And in the freewill controversy of the day, we see the same spirit displayed. It is Antichrist that is speaking to us, and exhorting us to proud independence. Self-will is the essence of anti-christian religion. Self-will is the root of bitterness, that is springing up in the churches in these days. And it is not from above, it is from beneath. It is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Man's dislike at God's sovereignty arises from his suspicion of God's heart. And yet the men in our day, who deny this absolute sovereignty, are the very men who profess to rejoice in the love of God,--who speak of that love as if there were nothing else in God but love. The more I understand of the character of God, as revealed in Scripture, the more shall I see that He must be sovereign, and the more shall I rejoice from my inmost heart that He is so.
(Horatius Bonar)

M
mamaluk

Seriously brother logic, can't you just leave it alone? Leave us poor Reformed folks to our "illogical" and "uneducated" theology.

:)

I can never understand why it seems so difficult for some to "allow" God to do the choosing. Not only that, after being chosen, to have to insist upon otherwise.....and...despite all that's found proclaimed [i]throughout[/i] the [i]entire[/i] Bible.


In Christ, (chosen from among the weak and the foolish, whom,if left alone, will never choose Him, neither able nor qualified to do so!!)


mamaluk

L
Logic

At least answer what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?
We all know that HE does not elect arbitrarily.

Why does HE not elect?

L
Logic

mamaluk wrote:
I can never understand why it seems so difficult for some to "allow" God to do the choosing.
Why or How does He choose?

S
sermonindex

John 1:12,13 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but of God were begotten. (YLT)

Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Eph 1:5-11 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Rev. 17:17 God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words which I speak to you are spirit and are life. (LITV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (KJV)


John 3:6
That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit. (LITV)
that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.(YLT) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.(KJV)


1 John 5:1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him. (YLT)


2 Cor. 5:17 So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!

1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

S
sermonindex

Quote:


Why or How does He choose?


Deut 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.


Quote:


Why does HE not elect?

Romans 9:6-13 Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel, nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." Gen. 21:12 That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed. For the Word of promise is this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah." Gen. 18:10 And not only so, but also Rebekah conceiving of one, our father Isaac, for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling, it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen. 25:23 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3

Job 40:1-14 And Jehovah answered Job and said: Shall a reprover contend with the Almighty? He who reproves God, let him answer it. Then Job answered Jehovah and said: Behold, I am vile! What shall I answer You? I will put my hand to my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; yea, twice, but I will go no further.

And Jehovah answered Job out of the tempest and said: Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will question you; and you make Me to know. Will you also set aside My judgment; will you condemn Me so that you may be justified? And have you an arm like God; or can you thunder with a voice like His? Adorn yourself with majesty now, and with grandeur, and clothe yourself with glory and honor; pour forth the outbursts of your anger; yea, look on everyone who is proud, and bring him down low; look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, and trample the wicked in their place; hide them in the dust together; bind their faces in darkness. Then I also will confess to you that your right hand can save you.

Job 42:1-6 And Job answered Jehovah and said: I know that You can do all, and no purpose is withheld from You. Who is this hiding counsel without knowledge? So I declared, but did not understand things too wonderful for me; yea, I did not know. I pray, Listen, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You will make me know. I have heard of You by hearing of the ear, but now my eye has seen You; Therefore, I despise myself , and I have repented on dust and ashes.

Rom. 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?" Isa. 40:13 "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Job 41:11 Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
Why or How does He choose?
Deut 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
We are talking about personal election, not corperate.

Why and how does HE choose individuals, What criteria doies HE base HIS decisions on?

Why does HE not elect?
Romans 9:6-13 Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel, nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you."
Again, personal election, not corperate.

Job 40:1-14 And Jehovah answered Job and said: Shall a reprover contend with the Almighty?
I'm not contending with God, but those who say God chooses arbitrarily, or if it is unknowable, just say so.

S
sermonindex

The answer to the corporate is the same as the personal:

John 15:16 Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, AND THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN.

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

1 Cor. 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother.

2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timothy the brother, to the assembly of God being in Corinth, with all the saints being in all Achaia.

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, the One raising Him from the dead.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of the elect of God and full knowledge of the truth according to godliness.

Jude 1:1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to the ones called in God the Father, having been set apart, and having been kept to Jesus Christ.

The answer from the Word of God ought to be sufficient.

Reread the verses I have provided in my posts in this thread alone and see if you find the answer from Him.

God alone is Lawgiver,Judge,Jury,and Executioner. He answers to none.

What law would you place Him under?

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
The answer to the corporate is the same as the personal:
They can not be.

This is corporate:
[b]Rom 9:11[/b] [color=990000] For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)[/color]

[b]Rom 9:13[/b] [color=990000]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/color]
[b]Mal 1:1-2[/b] [color=990000]The burden of the Word of Jehovah to Israel by the hand of Malachi:
[b]:2[/b] I have loved you, says Jehovah. But you say, In what way have You loved us? Was not Esau the brother to Jacob? Yet Jehovah declares, I loved Jacob,[/color]
[b]Gen 25:23[/b] [color=990000]And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb; even two peoples shall break from your body. And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.[/color]

Jabobe (Israel) never had to repent, nor had to have faith in order for this Election.

Personal Election, one must have faith and repent.

[b]You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?[/b]

W
whyme

Logic, your question presumes that there must be a criteria. It secondly presumes that, even if there is a criteria, God must reveal it. Why so to each question?

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, your question presumes that there must be a criteria.
there must be a criteria, because with out criteria, God is electing arbitrarily, determined by or arising from [b]whim[/b] rather than judgment or reason.

There is a saying by GEORGE WASHINGTON:
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.

It secondly presumes that, even if there is a criteria, God must reveal it.
It is not that HE must reveal it, but that all desisions are based on certain criteria that is evident to all. God bases everything HE does upon truth and righteousness. Since that is true, it must be evident to all.

Why has nobody answered the question yet since they know God so well?

Why so to each question?
If you mean [b]each[/b] question as to why does HE elect [b]&[/b] why does HE not elect;

My qustion are because I gave the answers, but y'all deny them as being untrue.
If I am wrong, please tell me the truth.

Furthermore, If God has not revaeled His criteria for electing & not electing, if it is unknowable, then you have no authority to say that I am wrong because you don't know if I am wrong or not by the fact that it is not known.

Therefore, since you have strong objection to my statement of God's criteria, then you must know what the true criteria is.

Please tell me since I am wrong.

S
sermonindex

Y'all are making my head hurt!

Krispy

R
roaringlamb

It is not that HE must reveal it, but that all desisions are based on certain criteria that is evident to all. God bases everything HE does upon truth and righteousness. Since that is true, it must be evident to all.

Why has nobody answered the question yet since they know God so well?

God elects according to His foreknowledge of individuals, and His absolute right to have mercy on whom He will.

If a man is save, it has everything to do with God, but if a man is lost, it is his own fault for not believing the Gospel and for sinning against God's Law.

Of course a man cannot believe the Gospel without a new heart which only God can give, faith is a gift.

How can these things both be true yet seem so contradictory? The same way that God can hate sin, yet use it for His purposes in this world.

You will never be able to figure out all the "whys", as you are not God. Yet it seems you try to peer into Heaven to get God to answer you as to why He does things the way He does, I think Paul had some words for folks that do similar things and had similar questions-
Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Enjoy your salvation, exalt Christ, and leave the hidden things of God alone. Take what He has clearly revealed in Scripture and revel in it.

We will never understand God's ways here, He is too large for that, don't try to reduce Him down to something you can wrap your mind and "logic" around.

And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers :-D

God's grace to you brother logic, and may Christ be exalted above your pursuit of knowledge.

C
Christinyou

Our parents did not consult with us when they conceived us and ask us if we wanted to be born.

That was in the Hands of God, as to the life of the seed bringing forth another human being by mother and father, the seed planted to give life to us.

The same is with God, when we believe, and it is His giving the Grace that we can believe, then conception is accomplished again, that is the Incorruptable Seed of the Father birthed in those that God has given the ability to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God like mother and father does not consult with us if we want to be born again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The gift of God is the Grace and Faith that God provides for us to be born again, because we believe. I believe I was born into this world because I exist. I believe that I was born again into God's world because I have the witness in myself and I again exist, I live, "yet not I but Christ lives in me."

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

God chose me before the foundation of the world to be in Christ Jesus, that I might be crucified with Him and die to sin and live unto God, because of His foreknowledge of what Adam would do. This is the foreknowledge that God has, He has already chosen those in Christ and those that would believe. Not that I would choose Christ, for none would unless God intervened in the process, and give the Grace through Faith, being crucified with Christ so I might be saved from sin and death.

Genesis 3:2-7 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

As always man is still trying to be his own God.
This can never be, there is only One God and Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that brings the Seal of Salvation by the Christ that is born again in us, by the Perfect Seed of the Father who has birthed us again in Christ, and did not have to ask our permission if we want to be born again, just like my father and mother did not consult with me and ask if I would like to become a person. God has made us Christ Persons, by His own will, not mine.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

The Mystery: Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Quit dodging the question, You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?

roaringlamb wrote:
And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers
No, you, nor any one else have not, y'all give ambigious answerd as the reson being for God's glory and the like...ect... However, that is not a criteria.

I am looking for a standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to elect and not to elect.

No one has given an answer.

C
Christinyou

Quote: Logic wrote:

Quit dodging the question, You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

roaringlamb wrote:
""And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, they have not, they give ambigious answerd as the reson is God's glory. However, that is not a criteria.

I am looking for a standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to elect and not to elect.
No one has given an answer.""

No one can because it is His own and He has already given what is necessary to be the Elect.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is His criteria:

He is the reason we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:1-13 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

P
PreachParsly

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

I'm not sure but some may be missing what logic is saying.

God either has a reason for some being a part of the elect or He doesn't. If God does have a reason, what is it? If He doesn't... well then your mind just goes numb. The question would then be what do we say about God's love if God has no reason to elect some, but just does it anyways?

Logic said that the election is based purely upon foreknowledge. Those that disagree with him haven't given a reason God elects- because they don't believe you can know- yet they insist that Logic is wrong. Here is an example: Boy 1 says, this is a circle. Boy 2 says, "No! It's not!" Boy 1 says, "well, then what is it?" Boy2 says, "I don't know but I don't agree with you."

That's the summary that I get from what Logic is saying (whether I disagree or not). Maybe that will help some?

L
Logic

PreachParsly, I thank you!!! :-)

You get 5 star for the day. *****

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
This is His criteria:

He is the reason we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:1-13 ...


The part of Scripture can not be THE criteria because it is not a standard of judgment or criticism.

If any, the closest to this could be [b]1Jn 5:1[/b] [color=990000]Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and everyone that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him.[/color]
Or
[b]1Jn 5:5[/b] [color=990000]Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?[/color]

However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to [b]be[/b] elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.

B
BeYeDoers

how can it be my fault for not believing if God is the one responsible for not enabling me to believe?

M
mamaluk

Quit dodging the question

Logic,

Dodging? !!

Does any of us have the need to dodge any questions from anyone anywhere? Does not the Bible from cover to cover suffice all the answers to all men? If we are willing to study IT in humility and genuine sincerity? Would The Spirit so stand aside and let us fall into confusion?

Is it not fruitless to seek answers from those considered "unlearned" and those who dodge questions? Are you waiting for that speical "learned" one for your answer here on SI? :) Find me a [i]fully[/i] learned man, and God will show you his unlearnedness, especially from those who makes such claims, in no time.

In response to a couple of your "questions", here are some of my "still-learning" comprehension and a bit of my testimony to my own unworthiness of that electing Grace.

1. Corporate/Individual Election
1+1+1+1.........= the elect corporate nation/Israel
1+1+1+1.........= the Elect Body/Church
Without the 1, there's no corporate anything. Simple enough? ( Parden me, I'm not very scientific or insightful here perhaps) :)

2. Criterion:

[b]16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [/b]

We hear a lot of our willfulness, our pleasure, our desire, but we seem reluctant to allow GOD to have His Own?
[b]GOD's own good pleasure[/b], therewith any criteria [b]HE sees fit[/b],(the criteria that displayed from me would definitely be my lostness, sinfulness, weakness and hopelessness, at a young age of 9, touched by His mercy and conviction, a long time ago, if one can consider that "criteria").

Why Adam, why Abraham, why X,Y,Z?? Why Jacob and not Esau, why David but not Saul, why the 12 but not the 11 or 13? What's the underlying criteria? God's own good pleasure, as one can see a little here from some Scriptures below:

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's [b]good pleasure[/b] to give you the kingdom.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the [b]good pleasure[/b] of his will,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the [b]mystery[/b] of his will, according to [b]His good pleasure [/b]which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [b]His good pleasure[/b].

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the [b]good pleasure of His goodness[/b]and the work of faith with power

Furthermore, another small passage from Romans 8 here teaches on election, visit Ephesians, John, John 17, John 15, read Kings, read Chronicles, read Deuteronmy.........read Genesis, read Revelation...the remnant, the elect remnant, composing the 1+1+1+1+.....elect souls....

29For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If none of the above satisfy the criteria you look for, consider God's sovereign will, and that alone. (again, found throughout Scripture)

For a sinner to elect a Holy God, that is an unthinkable thing. Take faith, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Even that faith that one so often wants to claim or own to be his, is from God. How can we who are saved claim any, any merit at all?

Dear Christian friends, be grateful, stop finding fault with God's sovreignty.

still learning,
mamaluk


R
roaringlamb

Ok seriously logic here is an answer straight from Scripture. I am not dodging anything, and I believe the point is clearly made in these verses-

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 1:4 [b]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.[/b] In love
Ephesians 1:5 [b]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,[/b]
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Consider Paul's words here-
Galatians 1:15 But when [b]he who had set me apart before I was born[/b], and who called me by his grace,

Does this not echo the words of God to the prophet Jeremiah-
Jeremiah 1:5 [b]"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,[/b] and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Or how about David-
Psalms 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Interesting that the Holy Spirit makes the point through David that God knew David's days and physical make up before he was even formed!

How about when God gives the name of King Cyrus at least 150 years BEFORE he reigned as king!(Isaiah 44 & 45)

We are dealing with things too complicated for us to figure out and make nice and tidy. God elects those whom He foreknew, and these shall be saved and glorified. We will NEVER know who is elect and who is not until they respond in faith to the Gospel of Christ death for sinners.

Stop looking for answers to this, you may not like what you find, because as you have said many times, you do not want a god who only chooses some and not others, going so far as to call that god a monster!

But the more you look at Scripture, you will see a God who does just that. A God who owes man nothing yet in mercy became one of us and died for us.

C
Christinyou

Quote: Logic wrote

""However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to be elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.""

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect: eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Was Jesus elect to the Cross? When?
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When was it manifest? Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So elect does not occur at the time we believe, it is in the Christ that was elect, before the world began.

The believing is just the manifestation of what God has done in that person that he will believe, and that was begun before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who chose us in Him?

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Who's good pleasure of His will were we predestinated to adoption? Who made us accepted in the belived?

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What was abounded toward us? What was made known to us? According to whose good pleasure and purpose in Himself?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:

in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is in a letter is already written, then it is sealed. When were we sealed? After the letter was already written. The redemption of the purposed possession.


Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Who gives revelation and knowledge? Most of all what has Christ been made unto us?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God (The Father)is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and
sanctification, and redemption:

"made"? ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling,

Whose calling?

and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Who's working? Who's Power? In Whom?

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

Who is our fulness? Who fills us?

Still your choice? The Law is the standard of Judgement and Criticism you ask about. None can keep it and all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and we are all condemned deserve Hell, but God in His great love, when we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is Grace? Strong's Greek Dictionary
5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

I love this Greek tense, Divine influence upon the Heart, that we might believe and be saved by God's appointed Grace through the Faith given us in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who's Faith were we justified by? Who's faith do we live by?

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

First of all, The definition that I am using is.
[b]CRITERIA:][/b] n. plu. [Gr., to judge]
[color=990000]A means by which individuals are compared and judged.
A standard of judging;; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared, in order to discover their truth or falsehood, or by which a correct judgment may be formed.[/color]

If there is not a factor of this definition in any answer that you give, then you must be mistaken in your answer.

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote: Logic wrote
Ok seriously logic here is an answer straight from Scripture. I am not dodging anything, and I believe the point is clearly made in these verses-

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Okay, we both agree it is based upon foreknowlege.
But, foreknowlege of what?
What did God foreknow of the "whom"?

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
There is no standard of judgment in this.

Even where it says, "according to the purpose of his will", the purpose is not revealed enough to use as criteria.


Consider Paul's words here-

Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

Does this not echo the words of God to the prophet Jeremiah-

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

There is no standard of judgment in this.

Or how about David-

Psalms 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Interesting that the Holy Spirit makes the point through David that God knew David's days and physical make up before he was even formed!

Yah, but, it gives no standard of judgment for electing him.

How about when God gives the name of King Cyrus at least 150 years BEFORE he reigned as king!(Isaiah 44 & 45)
How about it? Is it a standard of judgment for election?

We are dealing with things too complicated for us to figure out and make nice and tidy. God elects those whom He foreknew, and these shall be saved and glorified. We will NEVER know who is elect and who is not until they respond in faith to the Gospel of Christ death for sinners.
But, foreknowlege of what?
What did God foreknow of the "whom"?

It can't be that God foreknew that they were elect. That would be circular reasoning.

"for whom He foreknew that He would elect, those He elected"?
This is ridiculous.

Could you just give me an answer from your own words based on Scripture, with out using verses for your answer?

L
Logic

mamaluk wrote:
Quit dodging the question

Logic,

Dodging? !!

Does any of us have the need to dodge any questions from anyone anywhere? Does not the Bible from cover to cover suffice all the answers to all men? If we are willing to study IT in humility and genuine sincerity? Would The Spirit so stand aside and let us fall into confusion?

Is it not fruitless to seek answers from those considered "unlearned" and those who dodge questions?

Sorry for the offence of my first post.
I was upset when I wrote it.
The only way that you would be of those "unlearned" is if you think that God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Do you? If not, then you wouldn't be one of those wjo anger me as the purpose for starting this thread.

Are you waiting for that speical "learned" one for your answer here on SI? :)
Does not need to be special.
1. Corporate/Individual Election

1+1+1+1.........= the elect corporate nation/Israel

1+1+1+1.........= the Elect Body/Church

Without the 1, there's no corporate anything. Simple enough? ( Parden me, I'm not very scientific or insightful here perhaps) :)

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)
This is corporate, Isaac neather had to repent, nor did he need to have faith in this election.

Personal election requires both repentence and faith.

2. Criterion:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Abraham willed or desired that it the promise might be given to Ishmael.
Isaac also willed or desired that the promise might be given to Esau.
This verse is in context with Abraham willing that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves Genesis 17:18 Moreover, in Genesis 27 Isaac is willing for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "running" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

This is still corporate election, which does not require faith & repentence.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
How does this link with prsonal election?
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
God will only harden a hart in judgment.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but use the same.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.

The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.

Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

We hear a lot of our willfulness, our pleasure, our desire, but we seem reluctant to allow GOD to have His Own?

GOD's own good pleasure, therewith any criteria HE sees fit,

But the only criteria HE sees fit is righteous and in jusice. Not just [b]any[/b] criteria.
(the criteria that displayed from me would definitely be my lostness, sinfulness, weakness and hopelessness, at a young age of 9, touched by His mercy and conviction, a long time ago, if one can consider that "criteria").
Yes, thing is that you were touched and convicted. That is some of the criteria which God uses.
Why Adam, why Abraham, why X,Y,Z?? Why Jacob and not Esau, why David but not Saul,
The criteria for not choosing Saul is that he was disobedient to the word of God & with many chances he blew it.

[b]1 Samuel 15:26[/b] [color=990000]And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with you: for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.[/color]

why the 12 but not the 11 or 13? What's the underlying criteria?
The underlying criteria is God's foreknowlege that those He elects will repent and put their fsith in Him!
God's own good pleasure, as one can see a little here from some Scriptures below:
Good plesure is not criteria, for, what is His his plesure that is good?
29For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
What did God foreknow of the "whom"?
It can't be that God foreknew that they were elect. That would be circular reasoning.

"for whom He foreknew that He would elect, those He elected"?
This is ridiculous.

If none of the above satisfy the criteria you look for, consider God's sovereign will, and that alone. (again, found throughout Scripture)
Choice from only will is what arbitrary is.
[b]ARBITRARILY:[/b] adv. By will only.
For a sinner to elect a Holy God, that is an unthinkable thing.
I'm not implying that man elects God, tnat would be rediculous.
Take faith, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Even that faith that one so often wants to claim or own to be his, is from God. How can we who are saved claim any, any merit at all?
May I expect an answer for these next questions, if not all?
Please explain, how God would not be responsible for the faithlessness if He is responsible for giving faith?

"saving faith" & faith that all mankind has What is the diference but in the person/object that the faith is in or on?

Fact, there is no diference, therefore, all mankind already has faith, they are condemned for not putting it in/on Christ.

Dear Christian friends, be grateful, stop finding fault with God's sovreignty.
Know one is finding fault in God's sovereignty, but in some's definition of it.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Quote: Logic wrote

""However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to be elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.""

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect: eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Was Jesus elect to the Cross? When?
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When was it manifest? Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So elect does not occur at the time we believe, it is in the Christ that was elect, before the world began.

The believing is just the manifestation of what God has done in that person that he will believe, and that was begun before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who chose us in Him?

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Who's good pleasure of His will were we predestinated to adoption? Who made us accepted in the belived?

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What was abounded toward us? What was made known to us? According to whose good pleasure and purpose in Himself?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:

in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is in a letter is already written, then it is sealed. When were we sealed? After the letter was already written. The redemption of the purposed possession.


Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Who gives revelation and knowledge? Most of all what has Christ been made unto us?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God (The Father)is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and
sanctification, and redemption:

"made"? ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling,

Whose calling?

and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Who's working? Who's Power? In Whom?

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

Who is our fulness? Who fills us?

Still your choice? The Law is the standard of Judgement and Criticism you ask about. None can keep it and all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and we are all condemned deserve Hell, but God in His great love, when we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is Grace? Strong's Greek Dictionary
5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

I love this Greek tense, Divine influence upon the Heart, that we might believe and be saved by God's appointed Grace through the Faith given us in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who's Faith were we justified by? Who's faith do we live by?

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip!
All this and no CRITERIA for God choosing the elect?
Why not just answer the question instead of defending somthing that I have not yet opend?

[b]CRITERIA:[/b] n. plu. [Gr., to judge]
[color=990000]A means by which individuals are compared and judged.
A standard of judging;; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared, in order to discover their truth or falsehood, or by which a correct judgment may be formed.[/color]

This is for you and every one to know, if you don't already. I know that you should, I feal silly posting the definition, but seems as though know one knows it by the lack of answeres.

What is the means by which God Elects?
What is HIS standard of judgment for electing an dnot electing?
God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?

By which facts, propositions are compared, in order for GOD to discover their electability or condemnation?

Any body should be able to answer these question straightly, in there own words based upon the charactor of God.

T
tjservant

God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?

Does God have to give this information? Can His ways not just be above our understanding?

I have asked the why are some elect and some not question to several people and have always gotten the same answer. It is the same answer Tozer and certain other Arminians give as well…we just don’t know everything about God. God’s ways are not our ways…who can understand?

This is John MacArthurs answer…same as many others have already stated in this thread.

John MacArthur:

When you ask me "why?" about God, you’ve taken me out of my zone. God does what He does because He chooses to do it. And, He is not subject to my evaluation.How God does things is revealed in scripture. The means by which a sinner can be saved is revealed in scripture. Why God chooses to do what He does, puts me in the same category as Job was in. What happened in Job’s life was inexplicable, because he didn’t know God and Satan had this conversation, and, God was going to prove to Satan that you couldn’t break saving faith. Satan was going to try to prove to God that he could break a man’s saving faith, he could break Job’s faith. And, so God said, "Have at him." Job didn’t have a clue what was going on. His friends didn’t have a clue, and they kept accusing Job of being evil and having secret sin and that this was their little paradigm. This is all going bad because you’re a bad person, and where are you hiding it, and Job’s looking around saying look, it’s not there. My heart is right before God and God had even said that he was the most righteous man on the earth. But, then, finally, Job says to God, you know, what’s going on? And, he starts to cry out to God, and God answers him like this: “Where were you when I made the world? Where were you when I put the stars in the sky? Well, who do you think you are? You’re asking me what I do what I do? You’re not a part of the plan, except in the way that I make you a part of it. You’re not a part of the discussion about what’s going to happen.” And, He never tells him why it all happened, never. Never tells him. So, I just say, look, when you ask me questions about why God does what He does, why does He allow evil, the problem with theodicy, why does He choose whom He chooses, why does He pass by whom He passes by, why does He have mercy on whom He will have mercy? "Why" questions are all bound up in His eternal will, and I can’t answer those questions. - John MacArthur

S
sermonindex

According to the definition furnished for criteria I do logically and biblically conclude that God the Father has no more and no less of "A Standard of Judgement for Election" than God the Son.

Being created in Christ Jesus as opposed to not being created in Christ Jesus is God the Father's criteria "by which individuals are compared and judged".

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I do not believe the difference of the heaven-bound man and hell-bound man is to be found in man, as all men are equally unrighteous in the sight of God, all being in Adam.

God sees Christ alone. His perfect Righteousness,His perfect obedience,His very Own Image. Absolutely nothing in the creature is by any means a criteria for electing or not electing this one or that one.

Therefore,God does not arbitrarily elect or not elect. The adoption of sons and their inheritance is "to the praise of the glory of His grace in which He favored us in the One having been loved" (Eph. 1:6).

The Son and the Father's love for His Son is the sole criteria for electing. Christ and the love of God the Father are certainly no arbitrary cause for the subject in question.

I believe this has biblically,apologetically and satisfactorily answered your query, and may all who read make their own judgement as to whether this statement is true.

And Jehovah said to him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?
(Exodus 4:11)

And he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-slave, and of your brothers the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of this Book. Do worship to God (Rev.22:9).

Note: Having concluded with God's criteria in electing, I would briefly mention that the means which God has chosen to use to bring His elect to His salvation is faith in His Son and repentance toward God. Of which both are given as gifts to His elect/chosen ekklesia.

Our end being eternal union in glory with Him.

Alleluia!!!

Amen!

C
Christinyou

"God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?"

The Cross of Christ.

O'wisevirgin, you are so correct, Jesus said, "He came to save the world not judge it.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

You want criteria and progression of Gods election?

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God does not need man to work out why, what and how, when and where He does what He does unto election of son's into the Fathers own family and who will live in His House, it is His House and He gives rebirth to all that He wants in it. He is a Father and does not have to consult, whom He wants to birth. My earthly father did not ask my opinion and neither did My Heavenly Father, He chose to birth me, Praise God.

The manifestation of the Elect:

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

W
whyme

Logic, would it offend you if God chose or acted in a believer according to His good pleasure?

W
whyme

Logic, another thing I would point out is that God dispenses His grace ( or doesn't ) all the time without regard to any revealed criteria. Common grace and spiritual gifts being the obvious examples of this. It, at the least, would not be inconsistent to expect effectual grace to be otherwise.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, would it offend you if God chose or acted in a believer according to His good pleasure?
No, His good plesure is Good. But that is not criteria.
That would be soley upon will, which is of an arbitrary decision based on or determined by His individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of His standard of judgment according to Justice and righteousness.

However, His good pleasure is always based upon the intrinsic nature of His standard of judgment according to Justice and righteousness; therefore, [b]what is HIS good pleasure?[/b]

Back to the question.
What is the Standard judgment of electing by HIS good Plesure?

W
whyme

If it is according to His pleasure, then no standard. Ask the same question you have but as to why God chose mankind to have salvation ( salvific grace ) and not the fallen angels. What criteria?

L
Logic


whyme wrote:
If it is according to His pleasure, then no standard.
His Good pleasure is a standard.
What is His Good plesure?
What is the standard of His Good Plaure?

Ask the same question you have but as to why God chose mankind to have salvation ( salvific grace ) and not the fallen angels. What criteria?
That is another thread.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
"God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elects, What is it?"

The Cross of Christ.

O.k; how is the Cross of Christ a principal or standard for evaluatiing those He elects?

You want criteria and progression of Gods election?

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I'll ask again:
What did God foreknow of the "whom" which He did predestinate...

God does not need man to work out why, what and how, when and where He does what He does unto election of son's into the Fathers own family and who will live in His House
I'm not implying that we "work out" why, how, when, where & what.
All I am asking is how He descides by His good plesure to elect and mot elect.

it is His House and He gives rebirth to all that He wants in it. He is a Father and does not have to consult, whom He wants to birth.
Does He not want to "birth" every one?
If not, then God is not love as the Scriptures say He is.

My earthly father did not ask my opinion and neither did My Heavenly Father, He chose to birth me, Praise God.
I'm not sugjesting that He does ask opinions.

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
According to the definition furnished for criteria I do logically conclude that God the Father has no more and no less of "A Standard of Judgment for Election" than God the Son.
Explain how His Son is the Standard of Judgment for Election.

How dow God decide whom He elects by Jesus?

Being created in Christ Jesus as opposed to not being created in Christ Jesus is God the Father's criteria "by which individuals are compared and judged".
How does God choose to create those to be "in Christ"?
What is the standard of judgment that He uses to create those to be in Christ?

The Son and the Father's love for His Son is the sole criteria for electing.
Still, How does God choose to create those to be "in Christ"?
What is the standard of judgment that He uses to create those to be in Christ?

Christ and the love of God the Father are certainly no arbitrary cause for the subject in question.

I believe this has satisfactorily answered your query, and may all who read make their own judgment as to whether this statement is true.

No, it only raises a simular question as to what is the criteia for creating to be in christ?

L
Logic

tjservant wrote:
God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?
Does God have to give this information? Can His ways not just be above our understanding?
These are not too lofty for us to know. He has given the information needed for the answer, though dome migh not like the answer.

When you ask me "why?" about God, you've taken me out of my zone. God does what He does because He chooses to do it.
That is the very definition of arbitraryly deciding.

And, He is not subject to my evaluation.
He is subject to justice & righteousness, which He has the very nature of.

How God does things is revealed in scripture. The means by which a sinner can be saved is revealed in scripture. Why God chooses to do what He does, puts me in the same category as Job was in.
No, it does not, because He has reveald the answers already.

I am only trying to get y'all to answer what HE has already reveald.

Ya'll seem to be afraid to give the answer.
Yall only give an answer that brings about the same question.

H
HomeFree89

Hi Logic,

The following article may not be exactly what you're looking for, but I thought that I'd just post it, just in case.

The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect

This is commonly known as a belief in a "limited atonement" (some Reformed men prefer to call it "definite atonement"). It is the teaching that Christ died on the cross and paid the penalty only for the sins of the elect. He did not die for the ones who eventually will be in the lake of fire. Often it is worded as follows: "Christ died for all men WITHOUT DISTINCTION but He did not die for all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION." This is a subtle game of semantics which makes it possible for them to say that He died for all without really meaning that He died for all. What they really mean is that Christ died for all kinds of people and all classes of people, but He did not die for every single person. That is, He died for Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, slave and free, male and female, etc., but it is understood that He died for only elect Jews and Gentiles, only elect rich and poor, etc.

Dr. Paul Reiter, has clearly and simply summarized the Scriptural teaching on this issue. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

HE DIED . . .

1. For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).

[From unpublished lecture notes written by Dr. Paul Reiter, former professor at Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, WV.]

It is evident that the extreme Calvinist must ignore the clear language and obvious sense of many passages and he must force the Scriptures and make them fit into his own theological mold. Limited atonement may seem logical and reasonable, but the real test is this: IS IT BIBLICAL? "What saith the Scriptures?" (Rom. 4:3). In childlike faith we must simply allow the Bible to say what it says.

Those who promote this erroneous doctrine try to tell us that "world" does not really mean "world" and "all" does not really mean "all" and "every man" does not really mean "every man" and "the whole world" does not really mean "the whole world." We are told that simple verses such as John 3:16 and Isaiah 53:6 must be understood not as a child would understand them but as a theologian would understand them. That is, we must reinterpret such verses in light of our system of theology.

The true doctrine of the atonement could be stated as follows:

The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Savior’s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19) and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was for all men (1 Tim. 4:10), but the cross–work of Christ is efficient, effectual and applicable only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10; John 3:16). We could even say it in a simpler way: "Christ’s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe." The cross–work of Christ is not limited, but the application of that cross–work through the work of the Holy Spirit is limited to believers only.


The extreme Calvinist would say that the cross was designed only for the elect and had no purpose for the "non–elect" (persistent unbelievers). But the death of God’s Son had a divine purpose and design for both groups. For the elect, God’s design was salvation according to His purpose and grace in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13). For unbelievers, God’s purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are CONDEMNED because they have rejected the Person and WORK of Jesus Christ and refused God’s only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40). Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

This issue is not merely academic. It is extremely practical. It affects the very heart of the gospel and its presentation. The gospel which Paul preached to the unsaved people of Corinth was this: "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). Do we really have a gospel of good news for all men (compare Luke 2:10–11)? In preaching the gospel, what can we say to an unsaved person? Can we say, "My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. He paid the penalty for your sins. He died as your Substitute"?

One Reformed writer said this:

But counselors, as Christians, are obligated to present the claims of Christ. They must present the good news that Christ Jesus died on the cross in the place of His own, that He bore the guilt and suffered the penalty for their sins. He died that all whom the Father had given to Him might come unto Him and have life everlasting. As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, FOR THEY CANNOT SAY THAT. No man knows except Christ Himself who are His elect for whom He died [emphasis mine]. [Jay Adams, Competent to Counsel, p. 70.}

As C.H.Mackintosh has said, "A disciple of the high school of doctrine [extreme Calvinist] will not hear of a world–wide gospel–of God’s love to the world–of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect."

How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if the Lord Jesus Christ provided not for their salvation? How can we say to a person, “Take the medicine and be cured!” if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? W. Lindsay Alexander explains: “On this supposition [that of a limited atonement] the general invitations and promises of the gospel are without an adequate basis, and seem like a mere mockery, an offer, in short, of what has not been provided.” [W. Lindsay Alexander, A System of Biblical Theology, 2nd volume, page 111]

If the Reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his "gospel" along these lines:

"Perhaps Christ died for you."

"Maybe God so loved you."

"Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."

"Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."

"Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."

"Hopefully He’s the propitiation for your sins."

"There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."

"I bring you good news, maybe."

"It’s possible that Christ died for you. If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."

"Christ died for you only if you believe that Christ died for you (thus proving you are elect), but if you do not believe this and if you continue in your unbelief until the day you die, then Christ did not die for you."

Those who hold to a definite or limited atonement do not present the gospel in this way, but would not such a presentation be consistent with their theology? Would it not be a correct and cautious and sincere way of sharing with the unsaved? An extreme Calvinist must be very careful how he presents the cross-work of Christ to an unsaved person because he never really can be sure if Christ has made provision for that person. As Robert Lightner has said, "Belief in limited atonement means that the good news of God’s saving grace in Christ cannot be personalized. Those who hold to such a position cannot tell someone to whom they are witnessing that Christ died for him because that one may, in fact, not be one for whom Christ died." [This quote is from an article by Robert Lightner in the book, Walvoord: A Tribute, p. 166].

John Bunyan made this observation: "The offer of the Gospel cannot, with God’s allowance, be offered any further than the death of Christ did go; because if it be taken away, there is indeed no Gospel, nor grace to be extended" (Bunyan’s Works). In other words, how can you offer the gospel to a person if Christ did not die for that person? How can we offer the sinner what has not been provided? As Lightner has said, "No maxim appears more certain than that a salvation offered implies a salvation provided." [Robert Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 114]

Boettner says: "Universal redemption means universal salvation" (cited by Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 96). The extreme Calvinist argues that Christ must save everyone that He died for. They reason thus: "If Christ died for everyone, then everyone will be saved." Let’s think about the logic of this statement. This would be like saying, "If medicine is available for everyone, then everyone must be healed." This is obviously false. The medicine, though available, will not do any good unless it is taken. "There is more than enough cool, refreshing water for every thirsty person in the village." Does this mean that every person in the village will have his thirst quenched? Only if every person drinks! We need to make a difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied.

"Lord, I believe were sinners more
Than sands upon the ocean shore,
Thou hast for all a ransom paid,
For all a full atonement made."

--Nikolaus L. von Zinzendorf, 1739

Taken from:

[url=http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/dangerso.htm]The Dangers of Reformed Theology[/url]

Jordan

S
sermonindex

We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.

A
andres

Logic, please tell us the answer?
love andy

W
whyme

Logic,

you use the language "standard of judgment". Grace and mercy have nothing to do with God making a judgment. Your question is faulty at the start. Your question should rather be why does God have mercy on some and not all? The Bible answers that correct question very clearly..... to badly paraphrase... " don't ask because it is His to know". And, I don't think you really mean that God would not be love if he saved only some. You presume that love trumps justice and no where in the Bible will you justify that position. God's attributes are in perfect harmony and a significant reason Jesus had to die is because God could not justify the sinner under any circumstance other than a payment of mankind's debt by a subsitute. God loves His justice. According to Scripture, anyone who justifies the guilty is an abomination to the Lord. How then does God justify the sinner? The answer is atonement through the blood of Christ. His justice is maintained and His love of the sinner is manifest...Propitiation. Mercy and love are in union but so are love and justice.

P
PreachParsly


moe_mac wrote:
We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.

That would make it an easy thread. :-D

God created the chicken and the chicken laid eggs.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic,

you use the language "standard of judgment". Grace and mercy have nothing to do with God making a judgment. Your question is faulty at the start.

Sure does have everything to do with making a judgment. [b]How does God decide (judge) which people to elect or not to elect?[/b]

How does HE have Grace and mercy without deciding (judging) whom HE has Grace and mercy on?

Your question should rather be why does God have mercy on some and not all?
Yes.
another question; How does God have mercy on some and not all with out being partial.

The Bible answers that correct question very clearly..... to badly paraphrase... " don't ask because it is His to know".
The bible never gives that answer.
It shows us very clearly why/how God has mercy on some and not all [b]or[/b] elects some and not all with out being partial.

L
Logic

andres wrote:
Logic, please tell us the answer?
love andy
The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

However, y'all gave that answer, but, then I asked, what did God foreknow of the "who" that He elects?
Or
What is that foreknowledge of?

It can not be that God foreknew that He would elect. Or that He foreknew that He would predestinate. That would bring up the same question.

[b]1Peter 1:2[/b] [color=990000]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.[/color]

This tells us that we are elect through sanctification, separattion or seting apart of the Spirit.

This has the same question, what criteria does God use th decide which people to sanctify?
It can not be that God foreknew that He would sanctify.

It can not be that God has foreknowledge of what He will do, that is still based purly upon will, which is still an arbitrary decision; "just because HE wants to and that HE can".
God does nothing arbitrarily.

If God would pardon one and not the other, based purely upon his will apart from anything else, not only will that be an arbitrary decision, HE would be showing partiality in His pardoning if the two criminals are all together equal in their crimes, which all mankind are.

Lastly, it can not be said that God elects according to His His good pleasure. Thatbis to ambiguous, it brings the question, what is His Good plesure?
What pleases God to elect one & not the other?

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Any other reason is partiality &/or arbitrary.

S
sermonindex


PreachParsly wrote:

moe_mac wrote:
We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.

That would make it an easy thread. :-D

God created the chicken and the chicken laid eggs.


Preach believe you just solved the thread on God made both the chicken and the egg.

C
Christinyou

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ro 9:21
Verse 21. Hath not the potter, etc. This same sovereign right of God the apostle proceeds to urge from another illustration, and another passage from the Old Testament, Isa 64:8, "But now, O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." This passage is preceded in Isaiah by one declaring the depravity of man.

Isa 64:6, "We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." As they were polluted with sin, as they had transgressed the law of God, and had no claim and no merit, God might bestow his favours as he pleased, and mould them as the potter did the clay. He would do no injury to those who were left, and who had no claim to his mercy, if he bestowed favours on others, any more than the potter would do injustice to one part of the mass, if he put it to an ignoble use, and moulded another part into a vessel of honour. This is still the condition of sinful men. God does no injustice to a man if he leaves him to take his own course to ruin, and makes another, equally undeserving, the recipient of his mercy, he violated none of my rights by not conferring on me the talents of Newton or of Bacon; or by not placing me in circumstances like those of Peter and Paul. Where all are undeserving, the utmost that can be demanded is, that he should not treat them with injustice. And this is secured even in the case of the lost. No man will suffer more than he deserves; nor will any man go to perdition feeling that he has a claim to better treatment than he receives. The same sentiment is found in Jer 18:6, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation," etc. The passage in Isaiah proves that God has the right of a sovereign over guilty individuals; that in Jeremiah, that he has the same right over nations: thus meeting the whole case as it was in the mind of the apostle. These passages, however, assert only the right of God to do it, without affirming anything about the manner in which it is done, In fact, God bestows his favours in a mode very different from that in which a potter moulds his clay. God does not create holiness by a mere act of power, but he produces it in a manner consistent with the moral agency of men; and bestows his favours not to compel men, but to incline them to be willing to receive them. Ps 110:3, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power." It should be further remarked, that the argument of the apostle here does not refer to the original creation of men, as if God had then made them one for honour and another for dishonour, he refers to man as fallen and lost. His argument is this: "Man is in ruins; he is fallen; he has no claim on God; all deserve to die. On this mass, where none have any claim, he may bestow life on whom he pleases, without injury to others; he may exercise the right of a sovereign to pardon whom he pleases; or of a potter to mould any part of the useless mass to purposes of utility and beauty."
Potter. One whose occupation it is to make earthen vessels.

Power. This word denotes here not merely physical power, but authority, right. See Mt 7:29, translated "authority;" Mt 21:23; 2Th 3:9; Mr 2:10; Lu 5:24, "The Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins," etc.

Lump. Mass. It denotes anything that is reduced to a fine consistency, and mixed, and made soft by water; either clay, as in this place, or the mass produced of grain pounded and mixed with water. Ro 11:16, "If the first-fruit be holy, the lump is also holy." 1Co 5:6, "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

One vessel. A cup, or other utensil, made of clay.

Unto honour. Fitted to an honourable use, or designed for a more useful and refined purpose.

Unto dishonour. To a meaner service, or more common use. This is a common mode of expression among the Hebrews. The lump here denotes the mass of men, sinners, having no claim on God. The potter illustrates God's right over that mass, to dispose of it as seems good in his sight. The doctrine of the passage is, that men have no right to complain if God bestows his blessings where and when he chooses.

Logic wrote: "The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Any other reason is partiality &/or arbitrary.


"must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered."

This is based on mans goodness of which there is none. No man would submit and none have ever unless God's intervention was first, then and only then can any man submit to the truth.

This is man's philosophy not God Sovereignty.

It is not man's goodness that he will submit or that would make God of no consequence in His choosing because the man He chooses will hear and of his own goodness choose to submit and The Cross of Christ of no need.

This part is true: "God must have known whom he could save." But not based on any goodness that man has to submit. The submission is upon God's input and the Cross of Christ, in the totality of the depravity man, giving man the ability to then choose life.

It is all God, and none of man, that is why we must decrease and He must increase, until Christ be formed in us, and I am no more. This is new life and a new creature in Christ Jesus our Lord, and yet God has as many different children as the flowers of the field. He made me this way and I am pleased to accept His Son as my life and all that I am.

The works we do bare witness of the Christ in us, just like the works Christ did bare witness of the Father in Him. "Not my works lest any man should boast".

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is what the Church has missed, it is Christ in us that is doing the works, and the Holy Spirit that does the works of salvation from the Father in us also.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

It takes the Nature of God to change the nature of man and become a son of God. It is His Choice not ours, "from before the foundation of the world," I was in Christ and He would be I me when the dispensation of time of God the Father set forth that I would believe. Not of my works lest I should boast.

Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

If God chooses His son's to believe, they will believe. Or else His Word would return void.

I don't know why God chose me for I sure did not deserve it, but I am greatful beyond words He did.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Romans 12:2-3 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The saving Faith of Jesus Christ that is in us.
Amen

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

...What is meant by "foreknowledge?" "To know beforehand," is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump at conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple, rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance.

...The word "foreknowledge" is not found in the Old Testament. But know occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. "I know thee by name" (Ex. 33:17). "Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you" (Deut. 9:24). "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jer. 1:5). "They have made princes and I knew it not" (Hos. 8:4). "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word "know" is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:23). "I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine" (John 10:14). "If any man love God, the same is known of Him" (1 Cor. 8:3). "The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

...God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift.

...Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them.

...Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace."

...It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

(A.P.)

C
Christinyou

Again O'wisevirgin

Amen

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply [b]because it pleased Him to choose[/b]:
In other words, God elect arbitrarily.

What is the basis of God's pleasure in choosing?

[b]What is it that pleased God to choose one and not the other?[/b]

You just keep falling into the same loop.

T
tjservant


Logic wrote:
wisevirgin wrote:
If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply [b]because it pleased Him to choose[/b]:
In other words, God elect arbitrarily.

What is the basis of God's pleasure in choosing?

[b]What is it that pleased God to choose one and not the other?[/b]

You just keep falling into the same loop.

The following is part of an article entitled "Does God Elect Persons Based on Their Foreseen Faith?"
By John Hendryx and can be found [url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/foreseenfaith.html]here[/url]:

Is God Arbitrary

First I would challenge you to wrestle with the following verse. Paul encountered the very same argument against election; that it would make God unjust and arbitrary.

Romans 9:18-23
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

To begin with, Paul would not ask this hypothetical question unless He believed the ultimate determination of ones salvation to be in the hands of God alone. Paul is saying that God has the sovereign right to do with us whatever He wants. Will you deny Him this right? Furthermore, since we know the character of God we must not think that, on His side, God had no reasons or causes for saving some and not others - - “since the divine purpose always conspires with His wisdom and does nothing without reason or rashly; although these reasons and causes have not been revealed to us. In His counsels and works no cause is apparent, it is yet hidden with Him, so that He has decreed nothing except justly and wisely according to His good pleasure founded on His gracious love towards us.” (Heppe, Reformed Dogmatics) Just because we don’t know why He chooses some to faith and not others is not reason enough to reject it. In the absence of relevant data, we, therefore, have no reason whatsoever to assume the worse, so there are no legitimate grounds for doubting the goodness of God here. Therefore, to doubt that God can choose us based solely on his good pleasure, is to doubt the goodness of God. The "foreseen faith" people are, in effect, saying that they cannot trust God in making this choice and prefer it to be left up to the fallen individual, as if he would make a better choice than God. Let's summarize then the response to the charge of God being arbitrary:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29: 29

1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)

2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.

3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

4. Salvation is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely".

We must always keep in mind that God is obligated to save no one and that we all justly deserve His wrath. Therefore, if God saves anyone, it is purely an act of His mercy. All evangelicals agree that it would have been just of God to wipe out all mankind in judgment, so why, then, would it be unjust for Him to judge some and have mercy on the rest. If six people owe me a debt, for example, and I forgive four of them their debt but still require the remaining two to pay up, I am totally within my right. How much more so God? (Read The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard: Matt 20:1-16)

“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy” (ROM 9:16).

T
theopenlife

I have no intention of conveying any attitude other than humility and quietness, when I say that this argument is immediately resolved for the person who has learned and felt that he was by nature, having descended from a spiritually corrupt man, Adam, not only a sinful being from conception, but at all points a criminal in ceaseless rebellion and worthy of divine judgment, even up to the moment He received a new nature in Christ.


Apart from this new nature, from which his willing decisions flow naturally, he would never have come. And with it, he must happily and willingly come, just as freely as every rooster crows in the morning, as every cat that cleans itself daily, and every pig that returns to the mud. The nature determines the will. God determines the nature.

Election is God's determination from eternity to apply by the Holy Spirit a new nature to whomever He choses according to unmerited grace, purchased through the effectual atonement by Christ on the cross.

S
sermonindex

The Eternal Son of God was/is the Father's criteria for electing. Eph.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All He is in His Person is all the sufficient cause necessary for the Father to do all He has done.

All is found in Him. Whether good pleasure,will,counsel,purpose,election,foreknowledge,etc.,etc. Whatever pleased Him was and is to be found in Christ. We are witnessing such things being manifested in time from His eternal counsel. Matthew 17:5-8 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.


The Father elects not arbitrarily, but on the contrary, His Beloved Son is the sole sufficient cause of electing. Col. 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I would see Jesus. He is my all in all.

To Him be all the Glory as we keep our eyes and hearts fixed upon Him.

But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus(Eph.4:20,21).

L
Logic

tjservant wrote:
3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed,

As a wise man said,
PreachParsly wrote:
Logic said that the election is based purely upon foreknowledge. Those that disagree with him haven't given a reason God elects- because they don't believe you can know- yet they insist that Logic is wrong. Here is an example: Boy 1 says, this is a circle. Boy 2 says, "No! It's not!" Boy 1 says, "well, then what is it?" Boy2 says, "I don't know but I don't agree with you."
You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.
End of your argument.

T
tjservant

You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.

I did not post in order to prove you wrong. I post only to look at all sides and hopefully move us all toward the truth.

Grace and peace

C
Christinyou

The foreknowledge is certainly in the equation of God's election, but not for acts of sin or goodness, it is the person God is concerned with, not what he has or will do. He will do what He wants to do for His pleasure, not because we deserve and consideration at all. God's foreknowledge is in Himself, I choose to elect because it pleases Me. In that pleasure is the act of loving us so much He killed His Only Begotten Son to be able to save some, even the elect of God must not consider that God does arbitrarily anything, but even if He does who are we to say you cannot do that, it is not fair?

Foreknowledge is not the act of election, God is the act of election of a person, not man's deeds.
God knew that Jesus Christ would be in the elect son's of God from even before creation of Adam.
This is foreknowledge. God knew He would have to put His nature in any created being or they could never be in His house. There is a parable, that says, "I never knew you". How does He know us? By the nature of God Himself that He has birthed in us by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Foreknowledge is not an act, but persons' in Christ which He chose before the foundation of the World.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

His blessing, His Christ, His choosing, no blame and His Holiness, His Love, His predestination, His adoption, His Christ, unto Himself, His good pleasure, His will, His purpose in Himself, His gathering, His counsel, His His His, and on and on and on, His seal, His answering of the Son's prayer, The Holy Spirit in you, And those who first trusted in Christ, By Him who has saved us to the utmost. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

How much more do we need to realize, it is all of God and none of us. How stubborn man is, no wonder He had to crucify His Son to give man His own Nature and He Gave His Son His nature before the foundation of the World and manifest by His Seed in Mary, to bring forth the first Son among many.

Foreknowledge is nothing compared to the Love of God in Christ Jesus birthed in the son's of God by His choosing and His Love and His pleasure, for our good.

The only reason man wants to know what God's criteria for election is, is to test God as the Pharisaic testers did Jesus Christ. They were of their father the devil. Who are we of?

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

tjservant wrote:
You can not say that I am wrong if this is your position.
I did not post in order to prove you wrong. I post only to look at all sides and hopefully move us all toward the truth.

Grace and peace

Ok

“It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy” (ROM 9:16).
With your position, I will pose this question:
If nothing of God is arbitrary & without partiality & all things that God does are according to set standards of righousness and pure justice, furthermore, the set standards of righousness and pure justice are evident to all, why can't we know them?

L
Logic

theopenlife wrote:
I have no intention of conveying any attitude other than humility and quietness, when I say that this argument is immediately resolved for the person who has learned and felt that he was by nature, having descended from a spiritually corrupt man, Adam.
I need to stop you here.
When did Adam turn corrupt?
Knowing that Adam sinned in his so called "perfect" state, How did Adam sin without being already currupt?
Maybe, you start from the wrong premises.
I say that all mankind are born from Adam who is of the flesh before he sinned.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life...
is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Before adam sinned, he ha all these.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food(1: the lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes(2: the lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise(2: the lust of the eyes), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

not only a sinful being from conception, but at all points a criminal in ceaseless rebellion and worthy of divine judgment, even up to the moment He received a new nature in Christ.
How is one sinnfull before he sins?

Apart from this new nature, from which his willing decisions flow naturally, he would never have come. And with it, he must happily and willingly come, just as freely as every rooster crows in the morning, as every cat that cleans itself daily, and every pig that returns to the mud. The nature determines the will.
Actually, ones own effections dertermines the will.
The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

God determines the nature.
According to you, then, God determind sin nature.

Election is God's determination from eternity to apply by the Holy Spirit a new nature to whomever He choses according to unmerited grace, purchased through the effectual atonement by Christ on the cross
The question comes back as, [b]What is the criteria that God uses to determine the "whomever He chooses"?[/b]

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
All He is in His Person is all the sufficient cause necessary for the Father to do all He has done.
That does not answer the question as to what criteria God uses to deterine whom He creates in Christ.

All is found in Him. Whether good pleasure,will,counsel,purpose,election,foreknowledge,etc.,etc. Whatever pleased Him was and is to be found in Christ.
That is all arbitrary, because it is subjuct only to will & not of a standard rule.

What is the standard rule of God's "good pleasure, will, counsel, purpose..."
It is justice and rightousness.
Now, how is justice and rightousness applied to His election.

The Father elects not arbitrarily, but on the contrary, His Beloved Son is the sole sufficient cause of electing.
That is to ambiguous. How does Jesus cause the election?

T
tjservant

If nothing of God is arbitrary & without partiality & all things that God does are according to set standards of righousness and pure justice, furthermore, the set standards of righousness and pure justice are evident to all, why can't we know them?

There are many questions we can ask “why” about that are not answered in the Bible. I certainly do not have all the answers. Perhaps we lack the necessary ability, capacity, and power to understanding all the Lord does…and why He does it. His ways are not our ways.

Grace and peace

C
Christinyou

Quote: Logic wrote:

"What is the standard rule of God's "good pleasure, will, counsel, purpose..."
It is justice and rightousness.
Now, how is justice and rightousness applied to His election"

You are trying to put God in your box on your playing field. 1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Unless you have the answers to this quarry of yours, quit baiting other with learned debating tactics questions, so you can apply your hook of your superior intelligence. If you have the answers make your point that we may agree or disagree, and let God approve that which is right.

1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

This is His Body The Church, Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

We cannot have preeminence over anything that has to do with His Body, His Church. The Father gives those that are His to Him. If Not they are not elect. I think God is quite capable of making any changes to His program to bring those that are His to salvation, even to those that believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

This should read, there is no past tense in received: But as many as receive Him to them He gives power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. If there were past tense in received or gave, then believe should read believed.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This also is present tense and should read: "Which be born,"

Who are we born of? God. Not by foreknowledge but by present, now, Seed of the Father and this pleases Him in His election.

Who's Power?

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

"Logic" said, "The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save."

The above statement has been shown to be biblically inaccurate.

On the same page this quote of yours is found in your reply to another poster there is a post Re: 1 Peter 1:2 which you must refute in an apologetic manner if you insist on continuing to question any brethren regarding the subject of this thread.

If you are wrong you must discontinue this for now and find God the Father,Son and Holy Spirit's answer as such is of interest to our Tri-Une God. God has seen fit to exercise the fulness of the Godhead in electing.

Therefore it is with Him alone we have to do.

Do business with God on your knees, and I'll do the same.

A
andres

i found this on sermon index:


"Many nowadays who cannot quite get away from religious thought, are able to stave off the inconvenient pressure of conscience by quibbling over the great truths of revelation. Great mysteries are in the Book of God of necessity; for how can the infinite God so speak that all his thoughts can be grasped by finite man? But it is the height of folly to get discussing these deep things, and to leave plain, soul-saving truths in abeyance. It reminds one of the two philosophers who debated about food, and went away empty from the table, while the common countryman in the corner asked no question, but used his knife and fork with great diligence, and went on his way rejoicing. Thousands are now happy in the Lord through receiving the gospel like little children; while others, who can always see difficulties, or invent them, are as far off as ever from any comfortable hope of salvation. I know many very decent people who seem to have resolved never to come to Christ till they can understand how the doctrine of election is consistent with the free invitations of the gospel. I might just as well determine never to eat a morsel of bread till it has been explained to me how it is that God keeps me alive, and yet I must eat to live. The fact is, that we most of us know quite enough already, and the real want with us is not light in the head, but truth in the heart; not help over difficulties, but grace to make us hate sin and seek reconcilation." C.H Spurgeon

love andy

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
"Logic" said, "The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save."
The above statement has been shown to be biblically inaccurate.
What is the reason for damnation?
Is it because some one is not elect?
No, it is because of willfull, intentional rebelion/disobediance(sin)?

What is the reason for salvation?
It must be the antithesis of the reason for damnation
It is because of willfull, intentional repentance to the command(Act 17:30) and faith in Christ(Gal 3:26)?

How is it that election is any diferent?

This is for anybody.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

Logic wrote,

"What is the reason for damnation?
Is it because some one is not elect?
No, it is because of willfull, intentional rebelion/disobediance(sin)?"

Adam's sin. All in Adam die.

No.

Sin nature before election, the Nature of our previous father the devil.

That is all who are born from above do not sin. Satan Nature out, Son Nature in.

1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These are born from above and His Seed remains in us, and He cannot sin.

These are the personal sins of a man. Not the Sin of the world that plunged all mankind into the realm and nature of Satan.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

That is why confession is needed and forgiveness is sure and faithful and just by God the Father because of The Cross of Christ and He that is in us. So we cannot sin the sin of Adam because this is the Sin that Christ took away and defeated Satan at the Cross, ENMITY, and now the same thing that put the whole of mankind in sin is what will set those that believe free. Those that believe are only able to believe because these are those the Father has given the Son, and none will be lost. Adam believed Satan and Satan then became the father of all mankind. Except those the Father has set aside for His own pleasure. Christ defeated Satan at the Cross and provided the only way to the Father.
Again if you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God you will be saved. How do we believe when we don't have the capacity to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. To the Jew a stumbling block, to the Greek foolishness. We believe because we have heard Him from the Father through the Holy Spirit. Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. Have you heard Him?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Jesus knows those that are His and those that are not, His sheep hears His voice.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Is this not foreknowledge and election?

The blind man and those that believe not:

Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Jhn 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

Jhn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Who reveals Christ to us? God the Father through the Holy Spirit.

Was Peter elected to this revelation? Jesus said He chose Peter.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

No man can come to the Father but by Christ Jesus.

No man can, it be revealed to unless it is revealed by the Father in Heaven.

Is this not God's choice and election in the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Flesh and blood cannot reveal it, and the includes myself, I cannot reveal it to myself.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Israel has not received this election of Grace yet.

Romans 11:3-11 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Do you believe that you are the elect of God, by His Grace and the Life of the Lord Jesus Christ in me and having this witness in myself by the Holy Spirit, I do.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

John, Peter and Paul agree on election.

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:18-21 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


L
Logic

[b]Criteria[/b] = a standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something.
any established law, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared, in order to discover their truth or falsehood, or by which a correct judgment may be formed.

God's own will
or
For His good plesure
or
according to His own purpose and grace
or
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain

These are not standards of judgment.

These tells us nothing why HE does not elect eather.

If they are, would anyone tell me how those Scriptures that are preseanted are standards of judgment or criticism which God uses to elect or not to elect?

How are they rules or principles for evaluating or testing something those which HE elect or does not elect?

How are those Scriptures establishe law, rule, principles or facts that God uses to choose which He wil save or condemn?

C
Christinyou

There is no rule for election, for all are lost and condemned to hell.

These principles are in God Himself and by every one that you have mentioned, Gods rule of election is in Himself and His Son Jesus Christ, not in the goodness or foreknowledge that any man would choose to submit, for none would.

You have been given all that is necessary to come to the knowledge that You are saved by Grace through the Faith of the Son of God, given you by the Holy Spirit of God and by the life of Jesus Christ given you on the Cross. And you still believe it is in you doing that you are saved. Something is amiss and needs to be reconciled to God and His Son For His work that He has done in you, and that not of yourself.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This foreknowledge is not that we are good enough to receive Jesus Christ because we believe, but the Father has sanctified your believing through the Holy Spirit and obedience that you would believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and shed His blood for you, and given you Grace and peace multiplied that you would believe, not by your grace or faith but by His Grace through His Faith are you saved.

Sanctified: put to use for what God intended it before the foundation of the world, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

On top of this God has made Christ in us the wisdom of God, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit of Christ that is in you, and the whole of all that are redeemed in Christ. This God has done by His election and by His foreknowledge of the total depravity of man and the need for the ENMITY, and cleansing Blood of the Lamb of God at the Cross, The whole nature of God Himself in Christ Jesus our Lord, Whom He has birthed in the elect sons of disobedience unto the elect son of God.

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

"YOU ARE DEAD", Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:8-17 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

So, all you are saying is that God elects some with out basis of judgment, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

God does all things according to set standards, rules on which HE makes a judgment or a decision.
God always moves according to rules or principles for evaluating every thing HE does.

Christinyou wrote:
There is no rule for election, for all are lost and condemned to hell.
Since all are lost, there must be a deciding factor which GOD uses for electing and not electing.
If not, God would be arbitrarily electing. That would be outside of Justice.
You are denying that facts of reality.

These principles are in God Himself and by every one that you have mentioned, Gods rule of election is in Himself and His Son Jesus Christ, not in the goodness or foreknowledge that any man would choose to submit, for none would.
I agree that they are in Himself, but the principles are righteousness, justice, and principle(specific basis of conduct or management).

All I am preasenting is what these are.

One can not just say God does it because, which you all are basicaly saying.

I am preseanting the specific basis of conduct or management that God uses for eletion.

What is "in Him and His Son Jesus Christ" which He is using for the election choices.

And you still believe it is in your doing that you are saved.
It is called obediance to the requiremnets for salvation.
[b]Luk 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

What things are commanded us, that we would say, "We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do"

God commands Faith, Repntence,Obediance, & Humility.
This is the criteria that God uses to elect.

The Criteria"
Faith:
Acts 20:21 [color=990000]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color]

Romans 1:5 [color=990000]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:[/color]

Romans 9:31-32 [color=990000]But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
:32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;[/color]
Hebrews 4:2 [color=990000]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]
Hebrews 11:6a [color=990000]But without faith it is impossible to please him...[/color]
There is many other Scriptures that tell us we nee to have faith as a criteria that God requires to save us.
However, those of you who insist that faith is a gift, you must explain why God would be angry(Hebrews 4:3) at those who do not have faith if all he needs to do is give it to them.

Furthermore, if faith was a gift, this would be the equivalent to that:
"I command that you have faith, however, I will not give it to you.
Just because I will not give faith to you, I will condemn you for not having it."
This is pure injustice, not to mention, rediculous.

(Rom. 3:25; Eph 2:8) which is the heart’s embrace and obedience to revealed truth (Lk. 24:25; Acts 8:37; 15:9; 26:18; Rom. 6:17; 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:22), choosing to live according to intelligence, conscience, or reality. Unbelief is the hearts rejection of light (Jn. 3:19; Rom 1:18). Without the truth it is impossible to be saved or set free (Jn. 8:32; Rom. 6:17; 10:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:10; 1 Pet. 1:22). Faith is from the heart (Lk. 24:25; Acts. 8:37; 15:9) and it purifies the heart (Acts 26:18; Rom. 6:17; 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:22). Faith and faithfulness cannot be separated (Jas. 2:18, 2:20, 2:26). Faith is the seed of obedience (Heb. 11:7, 8, 17, 24-27; 1 Jn. 5:4).

Repntence:
Acts 17:30 [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:[/color]

Acts 20:21 [color=990000]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ[/color]
Now, if repentence is also a gift, it would not be a command.
It would be rediculous to command that which is needed for you to give.
Furthermore, to command and not give that which is commanded is despicable.
It would be the equivalent to this:
"I command that you repent, however, I will not let you.
Just because I will not give you repentence, I will condemn you for not having doing it."
This is pure injustice!

(Isa. 55:7; Jer. 36:3; Lam. 3:40; Hos. 14:1-2; Joel 2:12-13; Mk. 1:4; Lk. 13:3; 5:32; 13:5; 2 Cor. 7:10) to secure a return to lawful conduct, lest sinners are granted impunity or immunity (a license to sin) and the well-being of all is once again endangered instead of protected. An unrepentant criminal cannot be pardoned of his crimes and released from his sentence by a benevolent ruler who cares about the well-being of all. There is no forgiveness of sin without forsaking sin. Repentance is when a person forsakes their selfish way of life (2 Kin. 17:13; Isa. 55:7; Jer. 25:5; 26:3; Eze. 3:19, 33:9, 33:11; Jonah 3:8), departs from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), forsakes their sin (Prov. 28:13; Isa. 55:7), or when a person changes their mind about sinning and makes up their mind to sin no more, when they purpose in their heart to stop sinning (Ps. 17:3; Isa. 1:16, 55:7; Job 34:31-32; Jn. 5:14, 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:34; Eph. 4:22-28). This must be a condition since minding the flesh, or being “carnally mind” (fleshly purposed) is enmity with God (Rom. 8:5-6). Men are transformed by the renewal of their minds (Rom. 12:2). Repentance is not a work but is an internal attitude of submission to God and His law; it is a change of purpose, a change of mind, a change of heart. Instead of being carnally minded, men must make up their mind to sin no more. Instead of being carnally purposed, they choose to be heavenly minded. God is utterly against those who sin every day (Isa. 52:5; Hos 13:2; 2 Pet. 2:14). His wrath is against anyone who is in willful sin or known disobedience (Jn. 3:19; Rom. 1:18; 2:6-11; Heb. 10:26-31; 1 Jn. 3:8; 3:15; 3:20; 2 Jn. 1:9). God punishes those who do not repent of their selfish way (Jer.15:7; Lk. 13:3, 5), but God rejoices when one repents of their sins and returns to obedience (Lk. 15:7, 10). Our God of love cannot abrogate His law of love, so a return to obedience is absolutely necessary for God to safely, wisely, and lovingly grant pardon to sinners. Repentance must come before salvation (Acts 3:19; 2 Cor. 7:10), conversion comes before forgiveness (Mk. 4:12), repentance comes before the remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Lk. 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38). God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31) and God rightly blames them if they do not repent (Matt. 11:20; 23:37; Mk. 6:6; Lk. 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Jn. 5:40; Rev. 2:21).

When the Holy Spirit brings us to the place (Jn. 6:44-45; 16:8) where we repent of our sins and believe the Gospel (Mk. 1:15; Acts 20:21; Heb. 6:1), this is called conversion (Matt. 13:5; 18:3; Mk. 4:12; Lk. 22:32; Jn. 12:40; Acts 3:19; 15:3; 28:27; Jas. 5:19), regeneration (Tit. 3:5), or the new birth (Jn. 3:3-8; 1 Pet. 1:23), so that a person is an entirely new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). And without being born again by the Spirit of God a person cannot see the Kingdom of God (Jn. 3:3, 5), one absolutely must obey the Holy Spirit, or obey the Gospel (Rom. 6:17; 10:16; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17) by turning from sin and trusting in Christ, by leaving all and following Jesus (Lk. 14:27, 33).

Obediance:
Romans 1:5 [color=990000]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:[/color]
The apostleship is in order to produce, or promote obedience to the faith; in other words, to induce them to render that obedience to God.
Therefore, if it wasn't a criteria, it woldn't be needed.

Romans 6:16 [color=990000]Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/color]
This is telling us that all mankind is able to choose whom they are slaves or a servant to.

Romans 15:18 [color=990000]For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not worked by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,[/color]
This obedience implies salvation.

Romans 16:26 [color=990000]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience to the faith: [/color]

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 [color=990000]Casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [/color]
There is many other Scriptures that tell us we need to obey as one of the criteria that God requires to save us.
There are some that would caim, obedience is a work which is against salvation that would be meritable as works of the law is, if so, then obedience would not be an obligation or preached about.

James 2:21-22 [color=990000]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
:22 See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?[/color]

Humility:

Luke 11:14 [color=990000]For whosoever exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.[/color]

Luke 18:14 [color=990000]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.[/color]
The Tax collecter was still not saved since he was asking for mercy, but he was still able to humble himself.

James 4:6,10 [color=990000]But he gives more grace. Therefore he says, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.[/color]

1Peter 5:6 [color=990000]Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:[/color]

C
Christinyou

Who gives repentance unto salvation? 2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

God gives repentance "Peradventure"?
Peradventure:

mhpote mepote may'-pot-eh or me pote may pot'-eh
from 3361 and 4218; not ever; also if (or lest) ever (or perhaps):--if peradventure, lest (at any time, haply), or not at all, whether or not.

Repentance has nothing to do with man in its giving, only works of that repentance.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

We have been given repentance, by God to whom He has elected to this repentance. Then we do do the works of the Christ that is in us.

Repentance is not the criteria for salvation for the elect of God, especially since we cannot repent until it is given us. Then it is election.

Romans 1:5 By whom we have ((((received)))) grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Obedience is learned by grace and apostleship given for His Name.

Even Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered.

Obedience comes by discipline, who is the One that does the disciplining? It is God the Father or we are bastards.

Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Who does the chastening? It is the Father or you are no a son.

2Cr 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If we are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves it follows that the humbleness is given by God also.

It is the Grace of God, the Faith of Christ, the given repentance from God, the obedience learned by God's chastening and Salvation by election of God to be in Christ Jesus, predestinated before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Or none would walk in them.

That we might do works unto repentance is of God.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Who gives repentance?

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Who's Faith?

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

By the faith, Son of God.

Galatians 5:1-7 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Humanism and New Age lies.

But God is true and His election is true and will not fail.

Romans 8:1-16 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If we walk after, follow, after the manor of the Spirit, who is doing the leading?

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic


Christinyou wrote:
Who gives repentance unto salvation?
Tell
mne hw you get passed this:

why God would be angry(Hebrews 4:3) at those who do not repent if all he needs to do is give it to them.

How do you get passed this logical reason of God's condemnation:

GOD - "Since I sent my son to die for you, the only reason that you are condemned is for not repenting.
Therefore, I command that you repent, however, I will not give it to you.
Just because I will not give repentence to you, I will condemn you for not doing it."

I am serious, How do you get passed these?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Can we not agree – regardless of whether you believe in predestination or not – that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to reject anyone who calls upon His Name?

Who cares whether or not we think that they are “elected” or not? The fact of the matter is that the Lord will accept ANYONE who calls upon His Name in truth. We cannot live our lives thinking that God had ulterior motives in His sacrifice. God sacrificed His Son so that ALL MEN could be afforded the opportunity to come to Him. Regardless of the fact that God sits on the outside of time and knows the end from the beginning – this truth remains: “Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

:-)

C
Christinyou

Quote:


"I am serious, How do you get passed these?"

There is only One that can get you passed these.

Philippians 3:15-21 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Who's working? 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Can we deliver ourselves?

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
"I am serious, How do you get passed these?"
There is only One that can get you passed these.

Philippians 3:15-21 Let us therefore...

Who's working? 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us...

Can we deliver ourselves?

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then?...
In Christ: Phillip


You didn't answer the question.

Those Scriptures have no relivence to the answer needed.

Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

C
Christinyou

"""Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide."""


Christ, His death on the Cross, That God sacrificed His own Son to get us.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Read this carefully and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth, that it is of God and no man can come to the Father unless he is called and given the possession to Christ who brings us to the Father. For we are His and no man comes to the Father unless it is through Jesus Christ, who's Glory is the prize given to the Father, that is the children of God, even son's of God, of whom Christ is the first born among many.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

If our labour is outside of the Lord then it is in vain and Christ profits you nothing and we have fallen from Grace, not lost our salvation, but not appropriating what God has given us in Christ Jesus, which is far above all that we ask or thing of.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

This is the victory and answer to your question, it is Christ that the Father gives the elect His calling and His calling is sure.

1 Peter 1:6-25 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Who are these that Hear His voice, How do they know and hear His voice? They are His sheep whom the Father has given Him.

I could go on and on from now till His coming and we still will not understand unless it is revealed to us. If we ask for the bread of life will the Father give us a stone? Praise God, no.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Are we perfect? Praise God, yes, by the Christ that is in us, By Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.
Christ, His death on the Cross, That God sacrificed His own Son to get us.
Come on, please,
why don't you or anybody answer the questions on this thread?

Do you know that criteria is the opposit of arbitrary?
[b]Criteria:[/b] standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle
[b]Arbitrary:[/b] not governed by any fixed rules

Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary, because they are not tests on which a judgment or decision can be based.
All they are is soly based upon "just because I want to & that I can"

Tell me the truth, do you actualy think that "just because God wants to & that HE can" is the answer to my question?

What ever you just posted does not answere my previous questions.

Furhtermore, IF Repentance & faith are gifts, how do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

Your last post certainly did not answer that.
Did you mean to not answer, or do you actualy think you did?

T
tjservant

Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary,

ar bi trar y (ar' bi-trer-ee) 1. determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle 2. despotic, tyrannical, ruling by whim, usually oppressively

God is not subject to fits of whimsy. He is a God of order and of law—a "principled sovereign"—and though we may not always understand His ways, we know He is never irrational, erratic, or inconstant (James 1:17). He always acts in accord with His own consummate holiness and perfect righteousness. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2), and He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13).

Of course, He is bound by no rule higher than Himself, but nonetheless, all that He does must be consistent with His own immutable character. Thus He cannot be "arbitrary."

(from some article...can't remember it)

God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

C
Christinyou

Logic, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that He died on the Cross, was buried and rose the third day?

Do you believe that He ascended to the Father and is seated with the Father and the elect saints are seated with Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Places?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is birthed in you and that is why you are a son of God?

Do you believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that you will have a body Just like Jesus Christ in the resurrection?

I have given you my answers to your questions, my answer to all your questions is always going to be In Christ or Christ in you.

Please answer mine.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is birthed in you and that is why you are a son of God?
I am birthed into HIM.
What is with the "HIM being birted you or me" stuff?

I have given you my answers to your questions, my answer to all your questions is always going to be In Christ or Christ in you.
So, you say that the answer to the question:
Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?
You say the answer is "In Christ or Christ in you."

Then my answer to your qustions are, "my grace is sufficient for you"

Do you see that our answers have no relivence to the questions asked?

Please explain how "In Christ or Christ in you." is the answer to the question

"Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?"
How your that answer relivent to the original question?

Or is it your just teasing me by playing stupid.

Now don't get offended because I asked if your playing stupid, but anyone giving an irrelevant answer as yours to a specific question as mine is non-sence.
I'm not calling you stupid, I wouldn't do that.

My mind is boggeled because your answere is like giving an answer as of "[color=9933CC]purple[/color]" to the question 2+2=?

If your not going to give a correct answer with relivence to the question, don't answer at all.

L
Logic

tjservant wrote:
Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary,

ar bi trar y (ar' bi-trer-ee) 1. determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle 2. despotic, tyrannical, ruling by whim, usually oppressively

God is not subject to fits of whimsy. He is a God of order and of law—a "principled sovereign"—and though we may not always understand His ways, we know He is never irrational, erratic, or inconstant (James 1:17). He always acts in accord with His own consummate holiness and perfect righteousness. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2), and He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13).

Of course, He is bound by no rule higher than Himself, but nonetheless, all that He does must be consistent with His own immutable character. Thus He cannot be "arbitrary."

AMEN!!!
Thisvis what my whole point is.

(from some article...can't remember it)

God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

First of all, you can not tell me that O'm incorrect, if what you say is true.

Second, I wouldn't be asking if there was no answer.
GOD has given the criteria as I presented.

Simple deduction & logic determines these to be true.
If God's commands of salvation are not of the criteria:
obedience, repentence, Faith, humility; then all that is left for the criteria to be is an arbitrary reason if not one of partiality.

Why else would God comand these to the world if they are not needed to become saved, or not the criteria of election?

Do not say that one does not need any of these to be saved, unless you can back it up with sound reasoning of Scripture.
If they are needed to be save, then the are the criteria for personal election.

Do not be as Christinyou and give a nonsense answere, but give relevance in your response.

Tell me how your answer is not arbitrary and not of partiality.

Obey and leave the consequences to God.
If God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, then this whole theory of limited election falls to peaces, aybe even more of their theology.

How does the calvinist or the reformed confirm this aspect of their theology if it has not been revealed?

T
tjservant

This post will more than likely be my last on this thread

I did not enter this thread to prove anyone wrong…only to find truth.


I have read through almost 19 pages of discussion on this topic posted on other forums under the name Diolectic. I believe he could very well be you. He (Diolectic) uses the exact same arguments and the same wording as you. I believe all of your questions and concerns have been satisfactorily and correctly answered on those forums as well as here.


".. having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will," Eph 1:11b ESV

As British Bible teacher David Pawson once said of this verse "When God wants to do something, He consults Himself - and no one else".

God can do whatever He wants for His pleasure and it not be arbitrary because He is just, holy, pure, etc…

God is just and fair, therefore what pleases Him is just and fair.

God is perfect and His choices and reasons are perfect...whether He chooses to reveal them to me or not. I cannot find in the Bible where it says He must reveal His ways to me.

Election is not arbitrary because God is not arbitrary.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! Romans 11:33 ESV

Grace and peace my brother.

L
Logic

tjservant wrote:
This post will more than likely be my last on this thread

I did not enter this thread to prove anyone wrong…only to find truth.


I have read through almost 19 pages of discussion on this topic posted on other forums under the name Diolectic. I believe he could very well be you. He (Diolectic) uses the exact same arguments and the same wording as you. I believe all of your questions and concerns have been satisfactorily and correctly answered on those forums as well as here.

Diolectic is me also.

I am discussing this on other forums because no one hear can correctly answer the question with out arbitraryyness &/or partiality.
No one can answer them because it violates theire theology.

In all the answeres given, there is no law, rule, principle(guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct) or facts that are compared in order to in order to decide which person God elects or does not elect.

B
boG

Forgive me if I don't quite understand the answer you are looking for Logic. But please allow me to show you some things.

"Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?"

This is a misunderstanding. The problem is not that God needs to give something He is withholding. The problem is that He has already given to us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness; and we have rejected His provision.

John 9
39. And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
40. Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
41. Jesus said to them, "[b]If you were blind, you would have no sin[/b]; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains.


All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Thus Judgment is imputed: "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18).


God is a God of Justice. However, God is Love, therefore, everything He does is by His own nature. The very same Light that saves a soul from death (salvation) is there very same Light that condemns souls to eternal hell (judgment).

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; [b]mercy triumphs over judgment[/b].

You see God does not contradict Himself. God is a God of Mercy and a God of Judgment. These are not contrary to one another in God's nature. But indeed, Mercy is "more true" than Judgment. Mercy triumphs over Judgment. Mercy does not cancel the judgment or annul it but rather fulfills it.

As Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

Furhtermore, IF Repentance & faith are gifts, how do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

Faith is born of God, this is true. But we still have to grow in our faith and be transformed by it; by the daily renewing of our minds by the Word of God.

Repentance is the willful submission of man to the Will of God.

And, as I said previously, the problem is that God has already provided and given both of these to all men.


Romans 1
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of [b]men who suppress[/b] the truth in unrighteousness,
19. because that which is known about God is [b]evident within them[/b]; [b]for God made it evident to them[/b].
20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, [b]have been clearly seen, being understood[/b] through what has been made, so that [b]they are without excuse[/b].


You will see verses like these throughout the NT. God has given all men a measure of faith by which they might be drawn unto Himself through Christ Jesus. Paul speaks about this in Romans 2.


If God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, then this whole theory of limited election falls to peaces, aybe even more of their theology.

Allow me to show you something special that is almost never given the light of truth it deserves.

1 Corinthians 2
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. [b]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit[/b]: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


What things has God revealed unto us by His Spirit? Read verse 9 again.


Ephesians 1
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [b]according to the good pleasure of his will[/b],
6. To the praise of [b]the glory of his grace[/b], wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have [b]redemption through his blood[/b], the forgiveness of sins, [b]according to the riches of his grace[/b];
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. [b]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will[/b], according to his good pleasure [b]which he hath purposed in himself[/b]:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to [b]the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will[/b]:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Now the question you might ask then, is this, "who has God predestined?"

The general rule of thumb is this, "whoever Christ died for."


However, God is not angry at ignorance, see Paul before the freethinkers at Mars hill ...

Acts 17
22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. [b]That they should seek the Lord[/b], if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30. [b]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent[/b]:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Jesus Christ) whom he hath ordained; [b]whereof he hath given assurance unto all men[/b], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33. So Paul departed from among them.


God does not judge ignorance or darkness, He judges the Light that is shining in the darkness. That Light which is not consumed by darkness. Even that Light which is the Light of the world, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ who was made sin for us, on our behalf, the Blessed Gift of Repentance and Faith that the Father has given to all men everywhere. According to the Light revealed to each man, shall each man be judged.

The one who says "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess." Shall be judged.

Unlike the publican who, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Jesus said the truth, this man, this sinner, went down to his house justified rather than the other: "for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."


I hope I have properly answered your question to your benefit.

B
boG

Well, that was fun. I just did what I didn't want to do previously. I read just about every thread on this topic ... The previous post I wrote out, I believe, explains a great detail of all of this but still missed the question at first.


To my surprise the more I read Logic's posts the more I liked him :)
(Perhaps, he could've been a bit more gentle in his approach but I understood his purpose.)

And also, the more I read, I found more and more disturbing answers to Logic's questions.


This is such a simple question. It is Free Will vs. Predestination. This is nothing "grey" or "unknown" or "finding fault in God's sovereignty".


How is it that all of you are saying "I am born-again" and not understanding what is being asked here?


Did God toss a "dart of salvation" one day and, by chance, your name got picked? Is this God's good pleasure? Is this His justice?


If our salvation was wholly determined by God's Soveriegn Will, then what is the purpose, might I ask, of such a command as this:

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve!"

Jesus said, John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

So, if God says "I will make you keep my commandments without your choice. Because it is My Will that you shall be righteous and sin no more." Does this mean love is perfected in us?

Look again -- "IF YOU ... "love Me."
and again -- "YOU WILL ... keep My commandments."

Tell me, how did all of you get saved in the first place? Did you wake up one morning and -poof- "Hey, I think I just got born-again! I didn't see that one coming. Golly, I wish God had told me He was going to do that; took me by surprise! He didn't reveal to me it was His Will for me to be saved today."

(Forgive me if I sound sarcastic it is not my intention but I do so only to reflect on such thought.)


Christ came to seek and save the lost. There came a time in your life when you KNEW you were lost, you were DEAD IN YOUR SIN: condemned to a wasted life and eternal hell! How did you come to know this? Because God called you to come out of darkness. How did He call you? He brought the Light of Jesus NEAR to your dark and sinful heart and shined His Righteouness all over your corruption!

JUST AS HE CALLS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE UNTO REPENTANCE THAT ALL MIGHT BE SAVED THAT NONE SHOULD PERISH BUT ALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE!

So by the measure of faith He has given to all men, even to us, He called to us and said "You are dead in your sin and all the thoughts of your heart are only evil continuously. Come unto Me and I will wash you whiter than snow. I will give you a new heart, a new spirit. I will make you like My Son!"


And what did we lost and broken sinners do?


We did not say "I choose you" as though God were a pokemon.

Neither did we say "I accept you" as though God were a structure of mentally accepted doctrines.

Neither did we say "I love you" as though we could sway God with our emotions.

Neither did we say "I need you" as though Christ was crucified to satisfy our desires.


We DID SAY "I yield to YOUR will. Do with me as YOU will!"


It is as simple as that. Thus, Mercy triumphed over Judgment. Why?

Isaiah 58,
"If because of the sabbath, [u]you turn your foot[/u] ([b]repentance[/b])
From doing [b]your own pleasure[/b] on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from [b]your own ways[/b],
From seeking [b]your own pleasure[/b]
And speaking [b]your own word[/b],

14. Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


Psalm 51
16. For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.


The sacrifice of men to receive forgiveness of sins is a broken spirit and a broken and a contrite heart. A spirit and heart yielded to the will of Him who desires to give Life to all men out of His good pleasure and loving-kindess!


2 Chronicles 7:14
[b]If my people[/b], which are called by my name, shall [b]humble themselves[/b], and [b]pray[/b], and [b]seek my face[/b], and [b]turn from their wicked ways[/b]; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


What do we have here? The BIG "IF"!
I know what many of you will be saying to yourselves now.
Listen first: What is this scripture? God's CALL to His people... He is calling us to repent, and pray, and turn, and seek.

IF WE WILL! Then HE WILL -- hear and forgive and heal!


It is that simple. The simplicity of Christ.


That we may be one in Christ and He in us. The will of man in harmony with the Will of God. This is the peace we have through Christ.


This one thinks he is righteous -- HE SHALL BE JUDGED!
This one thinks God doesn't exist -- GOD CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!
This one hasn't made up his mind -- HE SHALL BE VOMITTED OUT!

This one is mourning! -- COMFORT HIM!
This one is weak! -- STRENGTHEN HIM!
This one is humble! -- EXALT HIM!
This one is unrighteous! -- I SHALL DECLARE HIM RIGHTEOUS FOR MY NAME's SAKE!
This one is abandoned! -- YOU ARE MINE sayeth the LORD!

Of course, all of this is still dependant on the open door of faith towards God. Let the one who loves sin continue in unrighteousness and the one who is righteous continue in righteousness.


God has chosen all men to be saved. Just as Jesus was anointed to heal every sickness and disease in every person, as it is written, "and the power of the Lord was present to heal them." Many came and gathered and pressed in round about Jesus. But how many reached out took hold of him? how many cried out louder and louder? How many took out the ceiling to be brought near Him?

Logic's question is not one of did God provide a way of salvation (we know it is Jesus).
Neither is he asking if God is evil, but rather, asking many of you if you think God is evil because many of your responses certainly say so. Hence, the assault against this "whimsical, arbitrary Grace". Grace simply isn't scriptural in this manner.

Grace is the "free gift", not the "freely received by those who are called of God gift". We have already established that all men are called of God to repent and be saved but not all do. Not because this is contrary to the Will of God but because it is not convenient for sinners who love their sin and despise the sufferings of the Lamb who was slain!


What shall I say to summarize ...

I was listening to some Paris Reidhead sermons, I love him.

And he made a statement, something like this:

man says, "Do you believe he who has the Son hath eternal life?"

sinner says, "Yes."

man says, "Amen, brother! You're saved!"

sinner says, "Oh? But I have one more question. How does one get the Son?"


All of you have been writing threads on the "do you believe" part and completely missing the "how do you get" part.

And that is what Logic has been trying to get you all to see.


There is more to say about this, of course, but I hope all of this is more precise to the question at first.

Be blessed.

B
BenK

I have a question:

Why does one choose God when another rejects Him?

Is it because one is smarter or better at listening or was raised to listen and comprehend differently?

How sad if one had competence, but not the right kind that would persuade them to turn from their sin and trust in Christ. It is a scary thought to think that it is on us to do the persuading of the truth and it is up to the sinner to find a way within his intelligence to agree and respond.

Is God sovereign in and over all creation? Did He knit us together in our mother's womb? Of course!!!

If you are going to extend out the view that we can all just choose if we want to lest God be a tyrant, then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?

Is God completely sovereign or not?

T
tjservant

To no one in particular….

The following is from J.C. Ryle (a Calvinist) on election


“The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect, but because they “neglect the great salvation,” and because they will not repent and believe.”
\t
“For one thing, the doctrine of Election was never meant to destroy man’s responsibility for the state of his own soul. The Bible everywhere addresses men as free-agents, as beings accountable to God, and not as mere logs, and bricks, and stones. It is false to say that it is useless to tell men to cease to do evil, to learn to do well, to repent, to believe, to turn to God, to pray. Everywhere in Scripture it is a leading principle that man can lose his own soul, that if he is lost at last it will be his own fault, and his blood will be on his own head. The same inspired Bible which reveals this doctrine of Election is the Bible which contains the words, “Why will ye die, O house of Israel?” — “Ye will not come unto Me that ye might have life.” — “This is the condemnation, that light is come into tire world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (Ezek. xviii. 31; John v. 40; iii. 19.) The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect, but because they “neglect the great salvation,” and because they will not repent and believe. The last judgment will abundantly prove that it is not the want of God’s Election, so much as laziness, the love of sin, unbelief, and unwillingness to come to Christ, which ruins the souls that are lost.” J.C. Ryle


The rest of the article can be found [url=http://www.the-highway.com/election_Ryle.html]here[/url]

I think it may have much to offer this discussion.

Grace and peace

B
boG

then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?

Actually quite the opposite. If God had not allowed Adam and Eve to sin then a relationship of true love between God and man would not have been possible. Without the potential to disobey there would be not true obedience.

If you are going to make a claim about mental capabilities. Well first off salvation is not a matter of mental ascent (or at least shouldn't be). Second, God calls the murder of children the "murder of innocence". Someone who is still a child in their mental capabilities is no different, it is not a matter of legal age.

Thirdly, you would be amazed if you truly knew how much understanding people have about God who have no way of expressing themselves to the outside world.

B
BenK

Just to clarify, I'm not referring to those who are mentally disabled. What I mean is the level of intelligence. If it is about choosing, then it is a matter of the mind and the mind's ability to grasp or inclination to see the logic in it. But I would totally agree with you- Salvation is not a matter of mental ascent. That is the point of what I am getting at.
So where does the capability for those who are dead in their sins and darkened in their minds to desire and obtain salvation through repentance and faith in Christ come from?

L
linda7

Logic wrote (page 1):

.....the fact that the only reason why the non-elect will not be saved is because they stubbornly refuse salvation.

You are looking for criteria that God uses to predestinate a person. Is what is said above not the clue to it?

If God made us with free will and He foreknew that the first man Adam would sin, and turn away from Him, why did He, in the first place, make someone who he knew would turn away from Him by his sin? Because He gave us free will, so we would not just be puppets on a string. So now we are offered this free gift of salvation through Christ, but men love their sin, and God foreknew this also, who would REPENT and accept this gift and who would not. As He had the foreknowledge of this, He could predetermine those who He knew would repent and be His before they were even born. Becaue He knew us before we were even born.

FOREKNOW Strongs 4267
1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate


PREDESTINATE Strongs 4309
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

So, those whom He foreknew would repent and believe in Him, He predestinated. He stated that those He knew would believe in Him He would draw to Jesus.


And it says that He does not want anyone to perish, of course a loving God does not want anyone to perish, but they have their own free will.


So what is the criteria for predestination? I would say that since all have sinned, it must be that God has seen (foreknowledge)the individual's repentance.

Linda

B
boG

So where does the capability for those who are dead in their sins and darkened in their minds to desire and obtain salvation through repentance and faith in Christ come from?

God is calling all men unto repentance. That is the capability and Jesus is the provision.

If you are asking what makes a man change the attitude of his heart from loving sin and hating God to, say, "let me see what this Jesus-thing is all about." I would have to say it is little more than (I believe it was C.S. Lewis) it was said, something like this: If I have desires that are not fulfilled by this world then I am obviously made for another world. Some have described it as that "God-shaped space" that only He can fill. Or, more politcally correct, the "throne of God" that is established in my heart that I am sitting on and I know I don't belong there.

There is pleasure for a season in the world but the end thereof is death. And either we go on loving sin (which is essentially what? My will and not God's Will) and putting out the light of our consciences, as with a searing iron, or we yield to the light of our consciences.

The desire to repent and seek God is always there. That is the knowledge of God that Paul speaks of. It is yielding to that call that makes us or breaks us ... "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Either way we will be broken; perhaps this is what hinders many, the fear of death. When God breaks us, He also builds us up. But when He destroys ... who can withstand Him?

S
sermonindex

The Hornet Song
When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God,
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to terms,
And to help His own people to win.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room,
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urging to make yourself scarce,
You’d want to get out, don’t you see!

They would not lay hold and by force of their strength,
Throw you out of the window, oh, no!
They would not compel you to go against your will,
But they would just make you willing to go.

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright.
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.

Now, the Lord sent a great fish to swallow him up,
The story I am sure you all know.
God did not compel him to go against his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

CHORUS:
God does not compel us to go, oh, no!
He never compels us to go.
God does not compel us to go against our will,
But He just makes us willing to go.

S
sermonindex

1. Legion was my name by nature
Satan raged within my breast;
Never misery was greater,
Never sinner more possessed:
Mischievous to all around me,
To myself the greatest foe;
Thus I was, when Jesus found me,
Filled with madness, sin and woe.

2. Yet in this forlorn condition,
When he came to set me free;
I replied, to my Physician,
What have I to do with thee?
But he would not be prevented,
Rescued me against my will;
Had he stayed till I consented,
I had been a captive still.

3. Satan, though thou fain wouldst have it,
Know this soul is none of thine;
I have shed my blood to save it,
Now I challenge it for mine,
Though it long has thee resembled,
Henceforth it shall me obey;
Thus he spoke while Satan trembled,
Gnashed his teeth and fled away.

4. Thus my frantic soul he healed,
Bid my sins and sorrows cease;
Take, said he, my pardon sealed,
I have saved thee, go in peace:
Rather take me, Lord, to heaven,
Now thy love and grace I know;
Since thou hast my sins forgiven,
Why should I remain below?

5. Love, he said, will sweeten labors,
Thou hast something yet to do;
Go and tell your friends and neighbors,
What my love has done for you:
Live to manifest my glory,
Wait for heav'n a little space;
Sinners, when they hear thy story,
Will repent and seek my face.
John Newton

S
sermonindex



Can we not agree – regardless of whether you believe in predestination or not – that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to reject anyone who calls upon His Name?

This article address what you said above:


Gospel Preaching Commanded
A.W Pink

There are those who misrepresent the doctrine of election in this way: Here I am sitting down at my table tonight with my family to tea. It is a cold winter's night, and outside on the street are some hungry starving tramps and children, and they come and knock at my door and they say, "We are so hungry, Sir, Oh, we are so hungry and cold, and we are starving: won't you give us something to eat?" "Give you something to eat? No, you do not belong here, get off with you." Now people say that is what election means, that God has spread the gospel feast and some poor sinners conscious of their deep need come to the Lord and say, "Have mercy upon me," and the Lord says, "No, you are not among My elect." Now, my friends, that is not the teaching of this Book, nor anything like that. That is absolutely a false representation of God's truth. I do not believe anything like that, my friends, and I would not insult you by asking you to come here night by night and listen to anything like that.

1. Compel Them To Come In

Now, then, here is the truth. God has spread the feast, but the fact is that nobody is hungry, and nobody wants to come to the feast, and everybody makes an excuse to keep away from the feast, and when they are bidden to come they say, "No, we do not want to," or "We are not ready yet." Now God knew that from the beginning, and if God had done nothing more than spread the feast, every seat at His table would have been vacant for all eternity! I have no hesitation in saying, there is not one man or woman in this church tonight but who made excuses time after time before you first came to Christ. You are just like the rest. You made excuses, so did I, and if God had done nothing more than just spread the feast, every chair would have been vacant; therefore, what do you read in that parable in Luke 14? Because the feast was not furnished with guests, God sent forth His "servants." Oh, put your glasses on. It does not say "servants," it says God sent forth His "servant" and told Him to "compel" them to come in that His feast might be furnished with guests. And there is not a man or a woman in this church tonight or in any other church that would ever sit down at the marriage-supper of the Lamb unless you had been compelled to come in, and compelled by God.

Well, you say, what do you mean by 'compelled?' I mean this, that God had to overcome the resistance of your WILL, God had to overcome the reluctance of your heart, God had to overcome your loving of pleasure more than loving of God, your love of the things of this world more than Christ. I mean that God had to put forth His power and draw you; and if any of you know anything of the Greek or have a Strong's Concordance, look up that Greek verb for "draw" in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." It means "use violence." It means to drag by force. There is not a Greek scholar on earth that can challenge that statement—I mean, and back it up with proof. It is the same Greek word that is used in John 21 when they drew the net to the land full of fishes. They had to pull with all their might, for it was full of fishes. They had to DRAG it. Yes, my friend, and that is how you were brought to Christ. You may not have been conscious of it, you may not have known inside yourself what was taking place, but every last one of us was a rebel against God, fighting against Christ, resisting His Holy Spirit, and God had to put forth almighty power and overcome that resistance and bring us to our knees; and if any of you object to that strong language, then I am here to tell you, you do not believe in the teaching of this Book on the absolute depravity of man.

Man is lost, and man is dead in trespasses and sin by nature. Listen, it is not simply that man is sick and needs a little medicine; it is not simply that man is ignorant and needs a little teaching; it is not simply that man is weak and needs a little hope: man is dead, dead in trespasses and sin, and only almighty power from heaven can ever resurrect him and bring him from death unto life. That is the gospel I believe in, and I do not preach the gospel because I believe the sinner has power in himself to respond to it. Well, you say, then what is the use of preaching the gospel if men are dead? What is the use of preaching it? I will tell you. Listen! Here was a man with a withered hand, paralyzed, and Christ says, "Stretch forth thine hand." It was the one thing that he could not do! Christ told him to do a thing that was impossible in himself. Well then, you say, why did Christ tell him to stretch forth his hand? Because divine power went with the very word that commanded him to do it! divine power enabled him to. The man could not do it of himself. If you think that he could, you are ready for the lunatic asylum, I do not care who you are. Any man or woman here who thinks that that man was able to stretch forth his paralyzed arm by an effort of his own will is ready for the lunatic asylum! How can paralysis move?

Well, I will give you something stronger than that. You need something strong today, you need something more than skim-milk; you need strong meat if ever you are going to be built up and grow and become strong in the Lord and the power of His might. Here is a man who is dead and buried, and his body has already begun to corrupt so that it stank. There he was in the grave, and Someone came to that graveside and said, "Lazarus, come forth." And if that someone had been anyone less than God Himself, manifest in flesh, he might have stood there till now calling, "Come forth." What on earth was the use of telling a dead man to come forth? None at all, unless the One Who spoke that word had the power to make that word good.

Now then my friends, I preach the gospel to sinners, not because I believe the sinner has any power at all in himself to respond to it: I do not believe that any sinner has any capacity in himself whatever. But Christ said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life," and by God's grace I go forth preaching this Word because it is a word of power, a word of spirit, a word of life. The power is not in the sinner, it is in the Word when God the Holy Spirit is pleased to use it. And, my friends, I say it in all reverence; if God told me in this Book to go out and preach to the trees, I would go! Yes sir. God once told one of His servants to go and preach to bones and he went. I wonder if you would have gone! Yes, that has a local application as well as a future interpretation prophetically.

2. Preach The Gospel To Every Creature

Now the question arises again, why are we to preach the gospel to every creature, if God has only elected a certain number to be saved? The reason is, because God commands us to do so. Well, but, you say, it does not seem reasonable to me. That has nothing to do with it; your business is to obey God and not to argue with Him. God commands us to preach the gospel to every creature, and it means what it says—every creature—and it is a solemn thing. Every Christian in this room tonight has yet to answer to Christ why he has not done everything in his power to send that gospel to every creature! Yes, I believe in missions— probably stronger than most of you do, and if I preached to you on missions, perhaps I would hit you harder than you have been hit yet. The great majority of God's people who profess to believe in missions are just playing at them. I make so bold as to say of our evangelical denominations today that we are just playing at missions and that is all. Why my friends, there is almost half of the human race—think of it!—in this 20th century—travel so easy and cheap, Bibles printed in almost every language under heaven, —and as we sit here tonight, there is almost half of the human race that never yet heard of Christ, and we have to answer to Christ for that yet! You have and I have. Oh, yes, I believe in man's responsibility. I do not believe in man's "freedom," but I do in man's responsibility, and I believe in the Christian's responsibility in a double way; and everyone of us here tonight has yet to face Christ and look into those eyes as a flame of fire, and He is going to say to us, I entrusted to you My gospel. It was committed as a "trust" to you (See I Thess. 2:4). It is required in stewards that a man be found faithful.

Oh, my friends, we are playing at things. We have not begun to take religion seriously, any of us. We profess to believe in the coming of Christ, and we profess to believe that the one reason why Christ has not come back yet is because His Church, His Body, is not yet complete. We believe that when His Body is complete He will come back. And my friends, His "body" never, never, will be complete until the last of His elect people will be called out, and His elect people are called out under the preaching of the gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit; and if you are really anxious for Christ to come back soon, then you had better be more wide awake to your responsibility in connection with taking or sending the gospel to the heathen!

Christ's word, and it is Christ's Word to us, is "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel." He does not say "Send ye." He says "Go ye," and you have to answer to Christ yet because you have not gone! Well, you say, do you mean by that that every one of us here tonight ought to go out to the mission field? I have not said that. I am not any man's judge. Many of you here tonight have a good reason which will satisfy Christ why you have not gone. He gave you work to do here. He put you in a position here. He has given you responsibilities to discharge here, but every Christian who is free to go, and does not go, has to answer to Christ for it yet.

"Go ye into all the world." Well then, you say, Where am I to go? Oh, that is very easy. You say, easy? Yes, I mean it: it is very easy. There is nothing easier in the world than to know where you ought to begin missionary work. You have it in the first chapter of Acts and the eighth verse: "Ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem [that is the city in which they were] and in all Judea [that is the State in which their city was], and in Samaria [that is the adjoining State], and unto the uttermost part of the earth." If you want to begin missionary work, you have to begin it in your home-town; and my friends, if you are not interested in the salvation of the Chinese in Sydney, then you are not really interested in the salvation of the Chinese in China, and you are only fooling yourselves if you think you are! Oh, I am calling a spade a spade tonight. If you are anxious about the souls of the Chinese in China, then you will be equally anxious about the souls of the Chinese here in Sydney; and I wonder how many in this building tonight have ever made any serious effort to reach the Chinese in Sydney with the gospel! I wonder? I wonder how many here tonight have been round to the Bible House in Sydney and have said to the Manager there, "Do you have any New Testaments in the Chinese language, or do you have any Gospels of John in the Chinese language? How much are they per hundred? or per dozen?" And I wonder how many of you have bought a thousand or a hundred, and then have gone round to the houses in the Chinese quarter and have said, "My friend, this is a little gift that will do your soul good if you will read it."

Ah, my friends, we are playing at missions, it is just a farce, that is all! "Go ye" is the first command. Go where? Those around me first. Go what with? The Gospel! Well, you say, "Why should I go?" Because God has commanded you to! Well, you say, "What is the use of doing it if He has just elected certain ones?" Because that gospel is the means that God uses to call out His own elect, that is why! You do not know, and I do not know, and nobody here on earth knows, who are God's elect and who are not. They are scattered over the world, and therefore we are to preach the gospel to every creature, that it may reach the ones that God has marked out among those creatures.


(From a sermon preached in Sydney during his Australian ministry in the 1920s)

L
Logic


boG wrote:
Well, that was fun. I just did what I didn't want to do previously. I read just about every thread on this topic ... The previous post I wrote out, I believe, explains a great detail of all of this but still missed the question at first.


To my surprise the more I read Logic's posts the more I liked him :)
(Perhaps, he could've been a bit more gentle in his approach but I understood his purpose.

Thanx, When people are being hard, how is it to be gentle?
It seemes that they are being obtuse on purpose lest they offend ther theology which they have the Scriptures comform to.

Thanx again for taking time to understand.

L
Logic


BenK wrote:
I have a question:

Why does one choose God when another rejects Him?

Why does one choose chocolate when another rejects it?

Is it because one is smarter or better at listening or was raised to listen and comprehend differently?
Maybe partly, however, everyone is still responsible for every decision, weather good or bad.
God put the choice out for everyone & they are eather saved or condemned based on their decision.
One must not put the blame on God for man ending up in hell.
Sure, we all sinned, but if some are saved & others are not, then it is God's sin for the ones ending ip in hell if He could have saved them from it.
Just as you would be responsible for ones death out of two people in peril, if you were able to save them both. Even if it be both's fault for coming into that peril.
[b]James 4:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.[/color]
If God knows to do good in saving, and does it not, to God it is sin.

How sad if one had competence, but not the right kind that would persuade them to turn from their sin and trust in Christ. It is a scary thought to think that it is on us to do the persuading of the truth and it is up to the sinner to find a way within his intelligence to agree and respond.
It is worse if you put that burden on God.
However, it is not about intellect. It is but a moral decision to acknowledge the truth. Truth is not only evident to intectuals but to the simple also. Why do you think that in proverbs, it calls to the simple?

By the way, Why is is a scary thought? Do you not think it is not up to the sinner? why do you think it is up to God?

Is God responcible for people rejecting Him?
Logic demands that if it is God to decide who accepts Him and denies Him, Then it is God's fault again for the damned ending up in hell.

Is God sovereign in and over all creation?
Yes, He is the ultimate authority over all.
His authority means that all must be accountable to Him.
It is not that He is the cause of everything, or dominates as an arbitrary authority in tyranny having partiality in who He shows grace towards. This partiality would be arbitrary in that He has no reason in who He chooses to show grace.

If you are going to extend out the view that we can all just choose if we want to lest God be a tyrant, then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?
Nobody's ability is ever compromised by being raised in such a way. Otherwise, they would be with an exuse for not choosing correctly, they would be innocent because of their inability. Because they did not realy deny, but only did what they could do to the best of their ability.

Is God completely sovereign or not?
Yes, He is the ultimate authority over all.
All are accountable to Him.

L
Logic

linda7 wrote:Logic wrote (page 1):
.....the fact that the only reason why the non-elect will not be saved is because they stubbornly refuse salvation.
You are looking for criteria that God uses to predestinate a person. Is what is said above not the clue to it?

If God made us with free will and He foreknew that the first man Adam would sin, and turn away from Him, why did He, in the first place, make someone who he knew would turn away from Him by his sin? Because He gave us free will, so we would not just be puppets on a string. So now we are offered this free gift of salvation through Christ, but men love their sin, and God foreknew this also, who would REPENT and accept this gift and who would not. As He had the foreknowledge of this, He could predetermine those who He knew would repent and be His before they were even born. Becaue He knew us before we were even born.

FOREKNOW Strongs 4267
1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate

PREDESTINATE Strongs 4309
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

So, those whom He foreknew would repent and believe in Him, He predestinated. He stated that those He knew would believe in Him He would draw to Jesus.

And it says that He does not want anyone to perish, of course a loving God does not want anyone to perish, but they have their own free will.

So what is the criteria for predestination? I would say that since all have sinned, it must be that God has seen (foreknowledge)the individual's repentance.

Linda

You Got it.
Give this woulman an A+

L
Logic

boG wrote:
then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?
If you are going to make a claim about mental capabilities. Well first off salvation is not a matter of mental ascent (or at least shouldn't be).
[b]Faith & 1. Belief:
[b]1:[/b]
the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
[b]2:[/b] The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.
[b]3:[/b] In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.

Also a relationship whith Chraist.
The mental ascent here is [b]knowing[/b] Christ the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent(John 17:3)

B
boG

By "mental ascent" I am referring to man's working up of knowledge -- even scriptural knowledge.

Example, Jesus said, John 5: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

It is good to have scriptural knowledge because "it is these that testify about Me" but man's knowledge and understanding does not bring salvation. We must be willing to come to Jesus so that He may give that life.

We might rationalize in this manner that we must have "academic knowledge" before we can be saved. But this would be relying on a work of the flesh for salvation. We might as well preach water baptism before it is possible to be saved.


A belief is a "mental ascent" as you have described here. Those are good descriptions.

In terms of faith, I would explain it differently.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Now let us compare this same statement to another Scripture ...

Colossians 1:27, "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"

The hope here is "glory" and the substance of that faith is "Christ in you."

This is not a mental ascent, this is "rhema" revelation. "Salvation is revelation," as good ol' Paris Reidhead has said. This is independant of the knowledge of the mind because man's knowledge did not reveal this Reality. But the Spirit revealed it in us. Truly, faith is born of God (1 John 5:4).

Paul said, in 1 Corinthians, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

S
sermonindex

Arminian Grace

(to the tune of "Amazing Grace")

v1
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

v2
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

v3
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

v4
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

Dennis Walter Cochran

I
intrcssr83

Arminian Grace

(to the tune of "Amazing Grace")

v1
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

v2
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

v3
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

v4
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

Dennis Walter Cochran

:lol: ROTFLMAO!!! The complete anti-thesis of Newton's hymn!

H
hmmhmm

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them [b]that obey[/b] him;

[b]that obey[/b] ~ G5219

ὑπακούω
hupakoúō; fut. hupakoúsō, from hupó (G5259), and akoúō (G191), to hear. To hearken, obey.

(I) To listen to something, hearken with stealth, stillness, or attention in order to answer (Act_12:13).

(II) To yield to a superior command or force (without necessarily being willing).

(A) Of the wind and sea tempest (Mat_8:27; Mar_4:41; Luk_8:25).

(B) Of unclean spirits (Mar_1:27).

(C) Of a sycamine tree (Luk_17:6).

(III) To believe (Act_6:7; Rom_10:16; 2Th_1:8).

(IV) To yield to one's passions giving them the upper hand (Rom_6:12, Rom_6:16).

(V) To obey God irresistably (Heb_5:9).

(VI) Of children's obedience to parents (Eph_6:1; Col_3:20).

(VII) Of slaves to their masters (Eph_6:5; Col_3:22).

(VIII) To obey an apostle (Phi_2:12; 2Th_3:14).

(IX) Obedience by Abraham (Heb_11:8).

(X) Obedience of Sarah to Abraham (1Pe_3:6).

P
PreachParsly


wisevirgin wrote:
Arminian Grace

(to the tune of "Amazing Grace")

v1
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

v2
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

v3
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

v4
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

Dennis Walter Cochran

This may seem cute but it does nothing to further conversation. It sounds like this guy is either ignorant of what Arminus or any classical Arminian taught or purposely misrepresenting it.

EDIT: I don't mean to come off as a "stick in the mud" but this song doesn't represent what Arminians have classically believed.

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
Arminian Grace

(to the tune of "Amazing Grace")

v1
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.

The grace is only to those who choose to acknowledge that which is evident to all, sinner and saint.
People don't receive grace because they shun it, not because it is not to them.
In contrast, those who receive grace because they take it, not because it is only for them.

I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
That is the hole purpose of the Gosple, so they might willfully choose.

v2
What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
Obedience to that which is commanded is not a merit to be called "good".

That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
The sin would be not to heed God's voice.

v3
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
It would be that "gospel plea" which softend the heart to answer the call.

v4
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
That which we've done was what we were supposed to do. [b]Luke 17:9-10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

We've no less days to sing [b]our[/b] praise,
He will say, "well done, good and faithful servant...
He will praise us.

Furthermore, I could rewrite a song also to bring out the rediculousness of Calvinists which would bring their doctrin to shame as you did here.

L
Logic

boG wrote:
In terms of faith, I would explain it differently.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Now let us compare this same statement to another Scripture ...

Colossians 1:27, "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"

The hope here is "glory" and the substance of that faith is "Christ in you

Substance is always tangible, Christ in you is not, unless the one who has "Christ in them" does something tangible [b]because[/b] Christ is in them.

I would wrather define this verse as the following:
[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the [b]substance[/b] of things hoped for, the [b]evidence[/b] of things not seen.[/color]
In other words: faith is substantial evidence(tangable evidence) of our hope, which is a correct response to God in all things.

This hope is not just a wish but a knowledge in which we actualy wait for.
1Timothy 1:1b [color=990000]...and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our hope.[/color]
Romans 8:23-24

What is the "substantial evidence" of which this hope brings?
It is the work of faith(Jamess 2:115-17 & 1John 3:17).
What are works of faith?
Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of [b]Christ in you[/b] the Hope of Glory!!!

C
Christinyou

Logic wrote:

"""Substance is always tangible, Christ in you is not, unless the one who has "Christ in them" does something tangible because Christ is in them.

I would wrather define this verse as the following:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In other words: faith is substantial evidence(tangable evidence) of our hope, which is a correct response to God in all things.

This hope is not just a wish but a knowledge in which we actualy wait for.
1Timothy 1:1b ...and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our hope.
Romans 8:23-24

What is the "substantial evidence" of which this hope brings?
It is the work of faith(Jamess 2:115-17 & 1John 3:17).
What are works of faith?
Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you the Hope of Glory!!!"""


It is the Faith of Christ in us that is tangible and without His Faith our faith is dead works, with no substance, not tangible to the perfection we have only because of the Christ that in in us, our only hope of Glory.
Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

How are we perfect?

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

On top of the "Tangible", Faith of Jesus Christ in us, It is His working in us that makes the Faith come forth with power and revealing of Christ to the world, which are the greater works of Christ being done through the Saints, which we can only do in and through Him.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Then James' faith without works is come forth as the works of Christ in the believer which shows our faith. The Faith of Christ in you.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Who's Faith am I showing? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How does Christ profit us nothing?
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

If by anything I do I believe that it has anything to do with my salvation being circumcised unto works of the Law, I have left my first Love and do not accept His Faith in me, and He profits me nothing.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

He profits me, In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Logic wrote:
What are works of faith?
Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you the Hope of Glory!!!
It is the Faith of Christ in us that is tangible and without His Faith our faith is dead works, with no substance, not tangible to the perfection we have only because of the Christ that in in us, our only hope of Glory.
Huh?
What is this "faith [b]of[/b] Christ" stuff?

Is it His actaul faith?
Or is it like the faith He portrayed and gave example of?
I can understand the latter, but the first, is nonsence.

Furthermore, how is "His faith" any more tangible that what I said?

Who's Faith am I showing? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
No one understands what you are talking about.

We have our own faith.
We should have the same "[b]kind[/b]" of faith that Jesus He portrayed and gave example of, but, we can not have His actual faith which HE would have posessed if HE did have faith.

Faith is the assent of the mind, how is it posible to have someone elses assent of someone elses mind?

Anyway, we are not talking about what faith and who's faith, but we are talking about the standard of judgment or criticism which God uses to decide whom He will elect or not elect.

What rule or guiding sense of requirements does God use for evaluating or testing those whom will elect or not elect?

B
boG

Awake, Thou That Sleepest by [b]Rev. Charles Wesley[/b]

(Preached on Sunday April 4, 1742, before the University of Oxford.)

[ ... ]
6. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you, and suffer ye the word of exhortation, even from one the least esteemed in the Church. Your conscience beareth you witness in the Holy Ghost, that these things are so, if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. "[u]This is eternal life, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent." [b]This experimental knowledge[/b][/u], and this alone, is true Christianity. he is a Christian who hath received the Spirit of Christ. he is not a Christian who hath not received him. [b]Neither is it possible to have received him, and not know it[/b]. "For, at that day" (when he cometh, saith our Lord), "ye shall know that I am in My Father, [b]and you in Me, and I in you.[/b]" This is that "Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (John 14:17).


It is a mistake to think of salvation as "physical tangible" evidence. This is simple not proper. For this is that "Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive." Just as the anointing oil was never to be poured out onto the flesh but was, indeed, poured out over the head and running down the beard and garments (Psalm 133). Neither is it something to be grasped with the hands but rather "Your conscience beareth you witness in the Holy Ghost, that these things are so", or again, Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."


How can Christ be in you and you not know it?
Is this not substantiating, or evidential?


If you are to consider the words of James, "faith without works is dead." Then allow me to illustrate something for you.

John 6
28. [...] they said to Him, "What shall we do, [b]so that we may[/b] work the works of God?"
29. Jesus answered and said to them, "[b][u]This is the work of God[/u][/b], that you [b]believe in Him whom He has sent[/b]."

The people asked "so that we may work the works". They wanted to know what they must do to be prepared or acceptable to do the works of God. They wanted to know what work they needed to do before they could do God's work.

Jesus told them "This is The work of God"! It is to believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom the Father has sent.

If this is the work of God, as Jesus said, and we already know that faith is born of God (1 John), then it is true that "faith without works is dead."

As it says in Hebrews 4:2,
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: [u]but the word preached did not profit them[/u], [b]not being mixed with faith in them[/b] that heard it.

This is "[b]The Root[/b] of the Righteous" (title of an excellent A.W. Tozer book).

These things you have said are "[b]the fruit[/b] of righteousness."

What are works of faith?
Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you the Hope of Glory!!!


Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


Roots will always bring forth fruits (both inward works and outward works) in accordance to the source of its life. To the one that has the Seed of the Word planted in them: that Seed shall put down roots. One may plant, and another may water, but it is God who causes the growth. The branch that comes forth (Matthew 13:23) needs to be found in the True Vine (John 15), Who is the True Source of Life.


John 15:8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye [u][b]bear much fruit[/b][/u]; so shall [b]ye be my disciples[/b].

John 13:35. By this shall all men know that [b]ye are my disciples[/b], if [u]ye have love one to another[/u].

This is the "fruit of righteousness" that is meant to be given in the same measure which we also did receive it from our Father of Light above (Luke 6:38, "give and it shall be given" and this is not talking about money as I have heard recently and so often).


John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; [b]as I have loved you[/b], that ye also love one another."
John 14:9, "As the Father hath loved me, [b]so have I loved you[/b]: continue ye in my love."


The "root of the righteous" is Christ Jesus.
The "fruit of righteousness" is to abide in Christ Jesus and He in us, that we may be one; as He is One with the Father (John 17). Hid in Christ, in God.


Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Hebrews 10
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


[b]Read Matthew 25[/b]. Physical works, or "doing something tangible," is not a perfect witness (though it is indeed [b]a[/b] witness) of Christ in you, as we read.

However, the crime of [b]the goats[/b] was that everything they did do was "for" God.

While [b]the sheep[/b] did everything "with" God.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""We have our own faith.
We should have the same "kind" of faith that Jesus He portrayed and gave example of, but, we can not have His actual faith which HE would have posessed if HE did have faith."""


"we have our own faith"? True and where did it get us? If it is our faith, why the Cross and death of Christ, Israel had their own faith and they did not make it, did they?

It is simple and man wants to make it his faith that saves him, when God Gave His Son because He knew our faith would not save us, so He supplies the only Faith that will save us and that is the Faith of Jesus Christ in you "the hope of Glory".

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What was foreordained? Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Then by His Faith is our faith quickened and our bodies quickened and we know have Faith, Hope, and Love. Who is our Faith in and from? Who is our Hope and Love from? It is certainly not of ourselves, for we were all dead and lost in our trespasses and sin.

Now that Faith has come, what is our works of Him that is in us?

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Who's Faith? Certainly not ours.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of,

Galatians 3:23-29 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

My own faith? I think not and believe it is not my faith and cannot be, it can only be the Faith of Christ that saves and keeps on saving. Not the doctrine of man by he works and his faith.

The Faith of Christ which became their faith when the believed and the only way they could believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now has become their life and their all in all in Christ Jesus their Faith, Hope and Love and their All in All. The clay could not create itself, the Potter gave Grace and Faith, that the dead in Satan might have life in Christ.

Are you a vessel of Grace and Faith? Or are you a vessel of sin and death, believing a lie and were given over to a reprobate mind that goes its own way and works for me and my father satan, my way, my choice and my nature, or am I a product of the Potter created in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be in the Faith, Love and Hope and life of Jesus Christ, who on the Cross gave His life to purchase and posses for God, son's for His house.

Your faith is failing if it is not the Faith of The Son of God, because your faith will always fail and return to its own nature which is Satan's faith bought and paid for by the first Adam, which keeps us from God the Father and condemns us to hell.

His Faith is securing our daily walk in Christ by His Faith and His Cross and His Blood, and His all in all.

His Faith? Yes, Praise God.

The Last Adam. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

First man Adam, now a dead soul in Satan.

"The Last Adam, now the Quickening Spirit" of Life and Hope in Christ Jesus.

Our only hope and glory. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who is the Potter looking upon, this peace of clay that He would even put His hands upon me and make me clean in His Son, me who deserves death and destruction, that He would take the care to put This Son in me and give me the Glory that the Son has by seating me with Him beside You Oh My Father. Lord What would you have me to do to give me thanks. For you have seen in me that which is Good by the Christ in me even before the foundation of the World that I might even be called a son of The Living God.

It is His Faith not ours. Specifically the Faith of the Son of God that was birthed in us at the moment of Salvation. It is Christ and Christ alone that has saved me and will keep me saved until I as His workmanship am revealed in Christ when He comes.

Faith of God. Amen. Faith of Christ. Amen

Which is not My Faith, in Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Many are ignorant of what Arminius taught.

If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as arminius' doctrine they'd be shocked at the least.

Carried to its end, Arminius himself as well as the Remonstrants of the present day, and also those who claim arminianism as biblicism today who are most ignorant of classic or historic arminianism, duly exalt man, his ability and will, either knowingly or unknowingly, whereas those who are not ignorant of his systematic theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works.

Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon man, his free will, and God and His will being subservient to the former regarding that salvation which the Gospel of God, which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.

Those who have reckoned with such 'doctrines of men & devils' cannot but loathe and repudiate them. May we do so with the utmost humility.

As for these men who wrote these songs I have posted on this thread, or any others, they are but expressing their intolerance against any attempt by wicked man's nature to obscure God's Glorious Grace.

For those who the Grace of God is everything, everything that touches that Holy Ark must be crucified.

John 6:63 the Spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything...

P
PreachParsly


wisevirgin wrote:
Many are ignorant of what Arminius taught.

If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as arminius' doctrine they'd be shocked at the least.

Carried to its end, Arminius himself as well as the Remonstrants of the present day, and also those who claim arminianism as biblicism today who are most ignorant of classic or historic arminianism, duly exalt man, his ability and will, either knowingly or unknowingly,

I agree. Many who say they are Arminian are really semi-Pelagian or full blown Pelagian. Most don't really know what Arminius taught.

whereas those who are not ignorant of his systematic theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works.

Yes, of course... :roll: there is no such thing as an Arminian who exalts God as God over all His works. Arminians do exalt God as God over all [b]His[/b] works. But they don't impute to God the things he doesn't do.

Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon man, his free will, and God and His will being subservient to the former regarding that salvation which the Gospel of God, which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.

Do you understand the heart of anyone who believes in "free-will"? It has nothing to do with exalting man like he is some demigod. The reason Arminius-or anyone who holds a similar doctrine- believe in free-will is because they don't want to say that God causes all men at all times to commit sin. Whether He does this actively or passively (by giving them no other choice but to sin) the Arminian sees that as blaming sin on God. The Arminian view of freed will doesn't stem from a high view of man, but a high view of the goodness and love of God. Some might exalt man, but it's wrong... It not that man is so wonderful that he must have a free will it's that God is too good to be the author of all sin. You may disagree with the argument but you should at least respect the heart of the Arminian.

Those who have reckoned with such 'doctrines of men & devils' cannot but loathe and repudiate them. May we do so with the utmost humility.

I could easily respond and say "Like we have a choice?" But I won't... The Arminian/Cavinism debate is not going to go away. Since we have to deal with it the least we should do is try our best to understand both sides and be respectable.

As for these men who wrote these songs I have posted on this thread, or any others, they are but expressing their intolerance against any attempt by wicked man's nature to obscure God's Glorious Grace.

Again, the Arminian sees it wicked that God could be imputed as the author of sin... calling each other wicked won't get us anywhere. Unless of course you think that Arminians are not Christians or something..

I know, to many it may seem vain to even talk about "men's doctrines." But, really we have to deal with it. This debate has been on this website (along with all Christian groups) almost has much as I've heard people condemn quoting other theologians/teachers. We need to deal honestly with the issues and attempt to understand and respect each other.

For anyone who actually wants to know what Arminian theology has taught throughout the years I recommend reading " Arminian Theology: Myths And Realities by Roger E. Olson" It's not a big argument trying to slam Calvinists but it's a fairly objective look at what has been taught by Arminian teachers throughout the years.

W
whyme

Preacher Parsley,

Thank you for your grace in your answers. I sense from your answer that you believe it is not possible for the reformed thinker to believe that God is 100% responsible for salvation and for the sinner to be 100% responsible for his sin, including the sin of unbelief. Would that be an accurate representation? I just finished a fantastic book by Ian Murray titled "Spurgeon versus Hyper-Calvinism. Spurgeon and many reformed thinkers like him think that man's moral responsiblility for unbelief is perfectly compatabile with the doctrine of election because Scripture provides for both. Whether men can figure out why that is so is irrelevant. Spurgeon was content to live with that mystery as well as other mysteries like why does God allow evil. He preached a universal call and beleived that those that were saved out of it were chosen by God's sorvereign choice, not man's free will. The reformed thinker claims just as much Scriptural merit in man's responsibility for sin and unbelief as the Arminian. To me the major difference is not in responsibility for sin, that is a shared view, the difference is in responsibility for salvation.

L
Logic

wisevirgin wrote:
Many are ignorant of what Arminius taught
Many are apathetic about what Calvin and the Reformists taught and remain in their teachings.

If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as arminius' doctrine they'd be shocked at the least.
If more knew what he himself taught rather than what has been passed along as Calvin's doctrine they'd say, "Oh, that's extreme Calvinism, I don't believe that."
All the while their beliefs lead to the same logical conclusion to what they deny.

Carried to its end, Arminius himself as well as the Remonstrant of the present day, and also those who claim Armenians as Biblicism today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Armenians, duly exalt man, his ability and will, either knowingly or unknowingly, whereas those who are not ignorant of his systematic theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works.
Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon man, his free will, and God and His will being subservient to the former regarding that salvation which the Gospel of God, which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.
Ultimately, the whole of the argument hinges upon God, and the true meaning of His sovereignty and man being able to submit to God's commands to repent, even while lost and in sin which is to the praise of His Glorious Grace, has wrought.

As for these men who wrote these songs that you have posted on this thread, or any others, they are but expressing the ignorance of your own theology/doctrine.

P
PreachParsly

I sense from your answer that you believe it is not possible for the reformed thinker to believe that God is 100% responsible for salvation and for the sinner to be 100% responsible for his sin, including the sin of unbelief. Would that be an accurate representation?

Yes, I know that some hold to that. To me, it's not that certain Calvinist don't believe that but it doesn't seem consistent. At least in my mind, it seems that if man doesn't have a choice then they don't have blameworthiness.

Arminians would also say that God is 100% responsible for our salvation. But then the Calvinist would say "it doesn't seem consistent."

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
"we have our own faith"? True and where did it get us?
It Got us to acknowledg the truth and acting on it.

Israel had their own faith and they did not make it, did they?
[b]Rom 9:31-32[/b] [color=990000]But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
[b]:32[/b] Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone[/color]
[b]Heb 4:2[/b] [color=990000]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them[/color](Israel)[color=990000]: but the word preached did not profit them(Israel)[color=990000], not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[/color]
Israel didn't have faith.

If it is our faith, why the Cross and death of Christ,
Because it wasn't faith at all.
Not because we didn't have the "faith of Christ"

It is simple and man wants to make it his faith that saves him, when God Gave His Son because He knew our faith would not save us, so He supplies the only Faith that will save us and that is the Faith of Jesus Christ in you "the hope of Glory".
It's not a matter of whoes faith we have, but what or who the faith is in/on.

Then by His Faith is our faith quickened and our bodies quickened and we now have Faith, Hope, and Love.
Where do you get that? No where does it say that "our faith is quickened". Nor does it say that after all you quoted we then have Faith, Hope, and Love.
I sure wish you would stop your twisting of the Scripptures.

My own faith? I think not and believe it is not my faith and cannot be, it can only be the Faith of Christ that saves and keeps on saving. Not the doctrine of man by he works and his faith.
That is where your missing the mark. Faith is not the thing that saves, not even the "faith of Christ". What saves is the relationship one has with him.

The Faith of Christ which became their faith when they believed and the only way they could believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now has become their life and their all in all in Christ Jesus their Faith, Hope and Love and their All in All. The clay could not create itself, the Potter gave Grace and Faith, that the dead in Satan might have life in Christ.
There you go again with your strang theology/doctrine, the Scriptures never mention " the dead in Satan".

If your going to make a contrast with "the dead in Christ" you must know the contraposition of that. The counterposition of "the dead in christ" would be the dead in Adam(1 Corinthians 15:22)
If it isn't "the dead in Adam" the next option would be "the dead in the flesh"(Romans 7:5).

Are you a vessel of Grace and Faith? Or are you a vessel of sin and death,
And again, adding your wretched teaching and twisting the Scriptures.
The Bible mentions nothing about vessels of "sin and death" which is only a law which Romans 8:2 say that people walk after.

believing a lie and were given over to a reprobate mind that goes its own way and works for me and my father satan, my way, my choice and my nature,
They did not like to retain God in their knowledge, that is why they were given over to a reprobate mind, not because they believed a lie. The context is stubornness to known things as the reality of God. They were doing things which are against their own nature(Rom 1:26) which throws your idea that they were doing things according to their nature.

or am I a product of the Potter created in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be in the Faith, Love and Hope and life of Jesus Christ, who on the Cross gave His life to purchase and posses for God, son's for His house.
Fact is, all mankind is a product of the Potter. However,Incontext to the Potter & the clay, one must refer to the context in which it derives, Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but use the same.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.

The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.

Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

Your faith is failing if it is not the Faith of The Son of God
No, faith will fail if it is not founded upon Christ and in His teachings (His Word), not that it isn't Christ's faith.

because your faith will always fail and return to its own nature which is Satan's faith bought and paid for by the first Adam, which keeps us from God the Father and condemns us to hell.
Where do you get this filth?
It is not about who's faith or ones nature that the faith is from. It is only about Who or what ones faith is in/on.

His Faith is securing our daily walk in Christ by His Faith and His Cross and His Blood, and His all in all.
His faith is not securing our daily walk in Christ, it is only that we have our faith in Him or on Him and His word, that is our security.

His Faith? Yes, Praise God.

The Last Adam. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

First man Adam, now a dead soul in Satan.

I don't know where you get this trash, please explain how you get by in saying that the First man Adam is now a dead soul in Satan.

It is His Faith not ours.
No, it was our faith in/on Him, not His faith in Himself.
You have the strangest doctrine I've heard.

Specifically the Faith of the Son of God that was birthed in us at the moment of Salvation.
This implies that you did not have faith to be saved, since you got faith afterward "at that momen"t.

It is Christ and Christ alone that has saved me.
I thought you said that it wad "His faith" that saved you?

L
Logic

boG wrote:

It is a mistake to think of salvation as "physical tangible" evidence. This is simple not proper.

Not totally, because the fruit is tangible. The must be fruit if the faith is real.

For this is that "Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive." Just as the anointing oil was never to be poured out onto the flesh but was, indeed, poured out over the head and running down the beard and garments (Psalm 133). Neither is it something to be grasped with the hands but rather "Your conscience beareth you witness in the Holy Ghost, that these things are so", or again, Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
My question is, how could someone think Christ is in them when He is not.
Could it be that they don't think the "substancial evidence" (tangible fruit) is of any consequence?

Is this not substantiating, or evidential?
You are talking about the subjective. I am talking about the objectiveness of our faith.
Objective, is when the proposition is certainly true of itself; and subjective, is when we are certain of the truth of it in ourselves only.
The one is in provable atainanble facts, the other in our minds, not able to be proven, but only by what we say.

I am talking about that which is evident to the world as tangible, not what is only known to ourselvs in our minds or hearts.

If Christ be in you, it will certainly be evident to those around you, not just yourself. It will be as substancial evidence that should convict you in a court of law prooving that you are a christian. Tangible evidence that people around you will see and know that you are a christian.
That is what faith is described as in Hebrews 11:1

If you are to consider the words of James, "faith without works is dead." Then allow me to illustrate something for you.

John 6

28. [...] they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

The people asked "so that we may work the works". They wanted to know what they must do to be prepared or acceptable to do the works of God. They wanted to know what work they needed to do before they could do God's work.


Jesus told them "This is The work of God"! It is to believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom the Father has sent.

If this is the work of God, as Jesus said, and we already know that faith is born of God (1 John), then it is true that "faith without works is dead."

As it says in Hebrews 4:2,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


This is "The Root of the Righteous" (title of an excellent A.W. Tozer book).

These things you have said are "the fruit of righteousness."
Quote:

What are works of faith?

Works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you the Hope of Glory!!!


Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Roots will always bring forth fruits (both inward works and outward works) in accordance to the source of its life. To the one that has the Seed of the Word planted in them: that Seed shall put down roots. One may plant, and another may water, but it is God who causes the growth. The branch that comes forth (Matthew 13:23) needs to be found in the True Vine (John 15), Who is the True Source of Life.

John 15:8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 13:35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This is the "fruit of righteousness" that is meant to be given in the same measure which we also did receive it from our Father of Light above (Luke 6:38, "give and it shall be given" and this is not talking about money as I have heard recently and so often).

John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

John 14:9, "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love."

The "root of the righteous" is Christ Jesus.

The "fruit of righteousness" is to abide in Christ Jesus and He in us, that we may be one; as He is One with the Father (John 17). Hid in Christ, in God.

I like the way you think
Take this for an example:
[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

This shows that one is born selfish and in reliance on the knowlege of God.

All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
And if man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has this world for his root &/or his own self as his root. As the world being his root, that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ being His root and bearing the fruit from that root which is loe.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and that depends upon what it's root is of.
[b]James 1:24[/b] [color=990000]for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what [b]kind[/b] he was.[/color]

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what root it had (its nature), it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit because the root is different, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

However, the fruit is tangible which prooves the faith is real.

C
Christinyou

Explain these and where our faith unto salvation comes from.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Who gives faith to every man that is in the Body of Christ? Who gives that proportion of Faith to believe. If Christ is in us and it is His Faith that makes the Faith of God with or without effect, Who's Faith are we dealing with? Not ours.

Romans 12:3-6 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Again, who gives the proportion of Faith?

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

The Spirit gives faith. Who is the Faithful One and whose faith is the only pleasing Faith to God the Father. It is the Faith of Jesus Christ and His is the only Faith that the Father will accept to the believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in believing, by His Faith we are made righteous.

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Who gives Faith? Why does Paul say we have One Spirit of Faith?

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

In His Faith:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Without Christ even with our faith we are reprobates. Only By the Faith of Christ in us are are we in "The Faith".

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Hearing of Faith; if we hear Faith, who is speaking? The Word of God and who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So where does our saving faith come from? Not of Self lest any man should boast, for we are saved by Grace through Faith and that is not of ourselves. Just like works unto salvation cannot save, so also the faith unto salvation cannot save unless it is the Saving Faith given by God through Jesus Christ, for it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, and the life I now live ("I live") in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You ask "where do I get this filth".

Answer: The Word of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Do you believe?

Praise God, because it is because of His Faith that we do.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Who's Fruit?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

"in", "a fixed position in place and time. Not by my Faith but by the Faith of the Son of God do we now live our lives. His Faith which the Father fixed in us that we might become the son's of God in Him.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

In Christ: Phillip

I
intrcssr83

by Logic on 2008/5/29 2:54:38

Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=bysSDFI8e50]Mark Driscoll responds to the blasphemy of the "God of Predestination is a Rapist" lie.[/url]

Z
zealouscello

My friend,
You can't rape the willing. God makes his elect willing by regenerating them, making them see their sin and giving them faith to believe on Christ.

C
Christinyou

I have never been, as would seem fit to brethren that seek God on their own merits, a Calvinist and have not studied his writings or agree or disagree with his theology.

So I though it about time for me to see what all the grumble is about. In seeking Calvin's writings and comparing them with my own 30 year study of the Word, I have come to see, Calvin agrees very closely to what I see as truth in scripture. I like Paul have not made it yet, but I do speak Christ and Him crucified, and by Him is the only way to the Father, pretty much from what I have read from Calvin's writing and his messages preached from the pulpit also, which have been kept for posterity, that is his theology also.

Calvin really does believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the only way to the Father. This is just one of Calvin's messages on John 3: 16.

Pretty interesting.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
John 3:16

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits.

And the words of Christ mean nothing else, when he declares the cause to be in the love of God. For if we wish to ascend higher, the Spirit shuts the door by the mouth of Paul, when he informs us that this love was founded on the purpose of his will, (Eph 1:5.) And, indeed, it is very evident that Christ spoke in this manner, in order to draw away men from the contemplation of themselves to look at the mercy of God alone. Nor does he say that God was moved to deliver us, because he perceived in us something that was worthy of so excellent a blessing, but ascribes the glory of our deliverance entirely to his love. And this is still more clear from what follows; for he adds, that God gave his Son to men, that they may not perish. Hence it follows that, until Christ bestow his aid in rescuing the lost, all are destined to eternal destruction. This is also demonstrated by Paul from a consideration of the time;

for he loved us while we were still enemies by sin,
(Ro 5:8,10.)

And, indeed, where sin reigns, we shall find nothing but the wrath of God, which draws death along with it. It is mercy, therefore, that reconciles us to God, that he may likewise restore us to life.

This mode of expression, however, may appear to be at variance with many passages of Scripture, which lay in Christ the first foundation of the love of God to us, and show that out of him we are hated by God. But we ought to remember — what I have already stated — that the secret love with which the Heavenly Father loved us in himself is higher than all other causes; but that the grace which he wishes to be made known to us, and by which we are excited to the hope of salvation, commences with the reconciliation which was procured through Christ. For since he necessarily hates sin, how shall we believe that we are loved by him, until atonement has been made for those sins on account of which he is justly offended at us? Thus, the love of Christ must intervene for the purpose of reconciling God to us, before we have any experience of his fatherly kindness. But as we are first informed that God, because he loved us, gave his Son to die for us, so it is immediately added, that it is Christ alone on whom, strictly speaking, faith ought to look.

He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him may not perish. This, he says, is the proper look of faith, to be fixed on Christ, in whom it beholds the breast of God filled with love: this is a firm and enduring support, to rely on the death of Christ as the only pledge of that love. The word only-begotten is emphatic, (ἐμφατικὸν) to magnify the fervor of the love of God towards us. For as men are not easily convinced that God loves them, in order to remove all doubt, he has expressly stated that we are so very dear to God that, on our account, he did not even spare his only-begotten Son. Since, therefore, God has most abundantly testified his love towards us, whoever is not satisfied with this testimony, and still remains in doubt, offers a high insult to Christ, as if he had been an ordinary man given up at random to death. But we ought rather to consider that, in proportion to the estimation in which God holds his only-begotten Son, so much the more precious did our salvation appear to him, for the ransom of which he chose that his only-begotten Son should die. To this name Christ has a right, because he is by nature the only Son of God; and he communicates this honor to us by adoption, when we are engrafted into his body.

That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father — that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. Is it because Christ renews us by his Spirit, that the righteousness of God may live and be vigorous in us; or is it because, having been cleansed by his blood, we are accounted righteous before God by a free pardon? It is indeed certain, that these two things are always joined together; but as the certainty of salvation is the subject now in hand, we ought chiefly to hold by this reason, that we live, because God loves us freely by not imputing to us our sins. For this reason sacrifice is expressly mentioned, by which, together with sins, the curse and death are destroyed. I have already explained the object of these two clauses, which is, to inform us that in Christ we regain the possession of life, of which we are destitute in ourselves; for in this wretched condition of mankind, redemption, in the order of time, goes before salvation.

It goes to say, I should read Arminius and see what the stink is all about.

How many have studied Calvin and what he truly says and not believe by word of mouth of man that he is a complete idiot and headed for Hell in his heresies, which Paul says must come so we may find out who is right and Hear the Holy Spirit, not man.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

PreachParsly wrote: Do you understand the heart of anyone who believes in "free-will"?

The issue is not understanding anyone's heart as we know the testimony of Scripture re: the heart, Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; who can know it?

The issue is the testiminy of Scripture re: the will. "The Scripture... hath no such term [Free] at all or anything equivalent unto it. But the expressions it useth concerning our nature and all the faculties thereof in this state of sin and unregeneration seem to imply the quite contrary: as that we are in “bondage” (Heb 2:15); “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1); and so “free from righteousness” (Rom 6:20); “servants of sin” (v. 17); under the “reign” and “dominion” thereof, (vv. 12, 14); all “our members being instruments of unrighteousness” (v. 13); not “free indeed” until “the Son make us free” (Joh 8:36)..." (John Owen)


The testimony of Jesus is that men are evil, Mat. 7:11 Therefore, if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those that ask Him?


Luk 11:13 Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.


PreachParsly wrote, "The reason Arminius-or anyone who holds a similar doctrine- believe in free-will is because they don't want to say that God causes all men at all times to commit sin. Whether He does this actively or passively (by giving them no other choice but to sin) the Arminian sees that as blaming sin on God...It not that man is so wonderful that he must have a free will it's that God is too good to be the author of all sin."


Again,the apparent good intentions of protecting God and His character must bow before Scripture. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We know that God cannot sin because of the above Scripture, as well as many other Scriptures. This Scripture specifically teaches us that God cannot sin as He is under no law. No law nor being can judge Him. He does not necessarily do what seems right to men, but what he does is always right because He does it.

Exo 4:11 And Jehovah said to him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?

Isa 45:5-7 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.

PreachParsly wrote, "... calling each other wicked won't get us anywhere."

Please read what I wrote, "...they are but expressing their intolerance against any attempt by wicked man's NATURE to obscure God's Glorious Grace."

This is to be understood as merely reiterating what the testimony of the Scriptures I quoted above teach, that the nature of man(mankind)is wicked(evil). The quote from Owen also mentions a number of Scriptures which teach this.

This invention of men(i.e. the idol of free-will)is no less than a devilish(slanderous)scheme to obscure the Glorious Grace of God in the Gospel of Grace. Even if men cannot see it as such. To detect the Deceiver in this may not be so easily discerned as the subtler the deception the more diabolical. It is one of the master cannons of Lucifer who appears an an angel of light(so his name infers),but it is indeed his doctrine as satan,God's adversary, as satan infers.

May we not be ignorant of his schemes(devices).

W
whyme

Often times I think we get caught up in discussing the issue of the freedom of the will as to issues pertaining to salvation. ( By the way, free will is mentioned in Philemon by Paul and in the Old Testament with respect to the "free will offering" and is meant to apply to voluntary acts of believers.)

The will is a slave to the heart or the desires of the heart. There are only two kinds of will, "self will" and "God's will" ( eg., Adam and Eve in the fall ). For sinners after the fall, the depraved heart is selfish and the will of the depraved person follows the strong wicked desires of the depraved heart. That heart is physically capable of choosing good but suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will freely choose darkness over the light.

The will of the regenerated heart freely chooses Christ and God's will because of the nature of that new heart and it is God's will that it be so. Man's will does not control the heart, it is always the other way.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
The will is a slave to the heart or the desires of the heart. There are only two kinds of will, "self will" and "God's will" ( eg., Adam and Eve in the fall ). For sinners after the fall, the depraved heart is selfish and the will of the depraved person follows the strong wicked desires of the depraved heart. That heart is physically capable of choosing good but suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will freely choose darkness over the light.
However, the heart does not have to suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will not alway freely choose darkness over the light.
The heart may also be persuaded.
Faith is an assent of the mind.

Faith is to admit as true; to agree, yield or concede, or rather to express an agreement of the mind to what is proven.
All will assent to the truth, but some do not consent to it.

You are thinking that faith is a consent which is an agreement to some proposal or measure (Means to an end; an act, step or a proceeding towards the accomplishment of an object by which it is to be attained.) which affects the rights or interest of the consenter.
We don't consent to a proposal of salvation, we assent to what God says as true. We admit, confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord, and also assent to the truth that God has raised him from the dead, then we will be saved(Rom 10:9)

This distinction between assent & consent is not always observed.

The will of the regenerated heart freely chooses Christ and God's will because of the nature of that new heart and it is God's will that it be so. Man's will does not control the heart, it is always the other way.

[b]1:[/b] Faith (Rom 1:17, 4:5)
[b]2:[/b] Repentance/conversion (Acts 17:30)
[b]3:[/b] Reconciliation (Rom 5:10, Heb 2:17)
[b]4:[/b] Justification/being made righteous (Rom 3:26)
[b]5:[/b] Regeneration/Adoption (Gal 4:5)
[b]6:[/b] Sanctification (1Ths 4:4)
[b]7:[/b] Glorification.

Regeneraion does not come until after other necessary things first.

[b]1:[/b] How does one repent unless he belives(assent to the truth) first?
[b]2:[/b] How is one reconciled unless he repents first?
[b]3:[/b] How is one Justification/made righteous unless he is reconciled first?
[b]4:[/b] How is one adopted/born of God/Regenerated unless he is reconciled first?
[b]5:[/b] How is one Sanctifide/se apart unless he is God's son first?
[b]6:[/b] How is one to be glorified in the end unless he has went through all these?

L
Logic

To all:
[b]Acts 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:[/color]

[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
This vers is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) and is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

What is it all about this problem you have for man to do that which God commands?

[b]Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!![/b]
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.
That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.

The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

D
DesiJr

In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

To better understand this statement:

So would I be wrong in interpreting this to mean that God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

W
whyme

Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

L
Logic

zealouscello wrote:
My friend,
You can't rape the willing. God makes his elect willing by regenerating them, making them see their sin and giving them faith to believe on Christ.
According to your theology/doctrin, one is not willing untill he is raped.

L
Logic

intrcssr83 wrote:
by Logic on 2008/5/29 2:54:38

Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=bysSDFI8e50]Mark Driscoll responds to the blasphemy of the "God of Predestination is a Rapist" lie.[/url]
Mark Driscoll misses the wjole point. It isn't like "a father with a son who is going to die", otherwise, the father would rescue all who HE created.
It is not as it were as father with a son who is going to die, because God does not obtrude or impose Himself upon His creation.
You theory of "regeneration" is not the same as the Scriptures, for the truth of regeneration is becoming a son.
According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)

A
andres

Logic wrote..
“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.”


Your logic again makes God become reliant on the creature.. it seems that the creature has become the creator.. For God has got to rely on us to make decisions so He can make His own decisions…

1. Logic, does God will need to rely on anything?
2. Does God’s will depend on my will?
3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?
4. Is it ok that God need not give an account of His Doings?

Love andy

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

It is dificult to prove anything by Scripture to those who insist on tristing it to their theology.
If I do give scripture, I am sure you will come back with your own slant on in.
Therefore I use the definition of the meaning of regeneration and aply that to real life, commone sence and logic, which the Scriptures agree to.

Regeneration is becoming a son of God.

I've already gave common sence, logical reasoning to [b]intrcssr83[/b] @12:07pm & b]to all[/b] @11:14, & I aked you retroical questions @11:06 why it must and that it can not procede faith.

If you can answer my "retorical questions(I guess they shouldn't be retorical) & refute the common sence that I posted [b]to all[/b] @11:14 & the logical reasoning that I gave to intrcssr83, along with Sctipture to prove that faith does not precedes regeneration, I will be persuaded.
The burden of proof is upon you since you have an alien definition of regeneration,
and have not yet proved your theory even by commone sence & logic.

A
andres

Logic wrote..
“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

The bible never says this, that we are saved by forseen faith, it says we are saved by faith by the grace of God. you have it backwards its not that god saw man's faith in the future so God elected him , but as the scripture says "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48... this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd, is that what this scripture says or am i wrong and why?
love andy

L
Logic

DesiJr wrote:
In other words, God must have known whom he could save.
To better understand this statement:

So would I be wrong in interpreting this to mean that God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?


True, that is why they are condemned, not because God didn't want to save them!!!

According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

The truthy of the matter is since we do & did pray in His Spirit with tears for God to save, He could not because of their unrepentence, rebelion against His spirit and denial of His evidential Word.

God is not an oger that HE would not want to save!!!

L
LoveHim

Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

sorry that i'm not logic, but ephesians 2:8,9 are great verses.

2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--

2:9 not by works, lest any man should boast".

here we see that when we place our faith (trust) in God, we are saved by His grace and given the gift of salvation (Christ Himself).

this verse [b]does not say[/b] that we are saved [b]so that we could place faith in Him[/b], but that [b]our faith (trust) is the means by which He gives us His grace and the gift of salvation[/b].

and by the way.... the verse is saying that salvation is the gift of God, not faith. i know some people will say that the verse is saying that faith is the gift of God in the verse.

just some thoughts whyme,
phil

W
whyme

Logic,

I don't intend to twist Scripture. I just noted that you made a statement that faith precedes regeration and wanted your scriptural support.

I'll be glad to provide what I perceive as support for the belief that regeneration precedes belief/faith.

1John5:1 states that everyone who believes in Christ is born of God. Before we debate sentence structure for this passage, please look at 1John4:7 that states that everyone who loves is born of God. In those verses, being born again precedes love and faith.

I think your use of Galations 4:5, at least in my Bible tranlation seems to indicate that faith precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which does not necessarily deal with regeneration. The 1John5:1 verse seems more on point.

L
Logic

andres wrote:
Logic wrote:“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.


The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Your logic again makes God become reliant on the creature. It seems that the creature has become the creator. For God has got to rely on us to make decisions so He can make His own decisions…
No. It make us relyant on His conditions to escape HIS wrath.

[b]2. Does God’s will depend on my will?[/b]
No.
God may still want(will) to save, even though one refuses.

[b]3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?[/b]
No, that is wrong!
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.
Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity.

[b]4. Is it ok that God need not give an account of His Doings?[/b]It is okay, but God will let His people know of His doings.
[b]Gen 18:17[/b] [color=990000]And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;[/color]
God did these so Abraham would intercede.
Why didn't God relent in destroying Sodam & Gamora?
He couldn't because there was no more that 1(one) righteous person in them.

However, Capernaum did not repent and it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than it will be for them (Matthew 11:23-24)
If God could have saved Capernaum, which HE wanted to, why didn't HE just make them believe?
You can not deny that Jesus wanted them to.

L
Logic

LoveHim wrote:
Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

sorry that i'm not logic,
but ephesians 2:8,9 are great verses.


As for [b]Ephesians 2:8,9[/b] there are two distinct clauses which you are wrongly combining.
The first half of the verse belongs together, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]”
dia pisteōs = through faith, functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi(are saved.)

Likewise, the second half, “[color=990000]and this[/color] (state of affairs) [color=990000]is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift[/color],” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “[color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.[/color]”

So, All this verse is saying is that the state of affairs of salvation is by grace through faith.

However, [b]Eph 2:9[/b] [color=990000]Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/color]
The word here for "works" means "occupation" or "that wich one employes himself in"
Therefore, Faith is not a work or an occupation or even anything that any one would employ themselves in.
Faith is a responce, assent of the mind.

D
DesiJr

According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

I apologize for any miscommunication on my part in not clearly revealing to you the heart of my theology in my question that sought to clarify a statement. No where in my post on this thread did I say that "my theology" declares that God is unable to save. I feel the need to rectify this inadvertant assault against the faith towards Christ that resides with me by the gift of the Spirit of God.

This is my theology:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

In Christ, please refrain from making assumptions. Without repentance, the vanity of assumptions will lead to great transgressions against the Lord.

Psalm 19:13
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic,

I don't intend to twist Scripture. I just noted that you made a statement that faith precedes regeration and wanted your scriptural support.

I'll be glad to provide what I perceive as support for the belief that regeneration precedes belief/faith.

1John5:1 states that everyone who believes in Christ is born of God. Before we debate sentence structure for this passage, please look at 1John4:7 that states that everyone who loves is born of God. In those verses, being born again precedes love and faith.

Even if you don't intend to twist Scripture, your bias still conforms it to your theology.

1John 5:1 & 1John 4:7 are not meant to show the order in which thin come, it is not to create a doctrine of such, it is only making a statement of a fact that if one believes, it means that he is a son.

There is no proof either way in those verses.
However, you still have make sense in your theology.
Answer my questions:

[b]1:[/b] Faith (Rom 1:17, 4:5)
[b]2:[/b] Repentance/conversion (Acts 17:30)
[b]3:[/b] Reconciliation (Rom 5:10, Heb 2:17)
[b]4:[/b] Justification/being made righteous (Rom 3:26)
[b]5:[/b] Regeneration/Adoption (Gal 4:5)
[b]6:[/b] Sanctification (1Ths 4:4)
[b]7:[/b] Glorification.

Regeneraion does not come until after other necessary things first.

[b]1:[/b] How does one repent unless he belives(assent to the truth) first?
[b]2:[/b] How is one reconciled unless he repents first?
[b]3:[/b] How is one Justification/made righteous unless he is reconciled first?
[b]4:[/b] How is one adopted/born of God/Regenerated unless he is reconciled first?
[b]5:[/b] How is one Sanctifide/se apart unless he is God's son first?
[b]6:[/b] How is one to be glorified in the end unless he has went through all these?


& refute the logic/reasoning to this:
To all:
[b]Acts 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:[/color]

[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
This vers is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) and is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

What is it all about this problem you have for man to do that which God commands?

[b]Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!![/b]
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.
That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.

The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

A
andres


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48...

this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd, ..

L
Logic

DesiJr wrote:
According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.
No where in my post on this thread did I say that "my theology" declares that God is unable to save.
I know, That is the reason for my post.

Do you think that God is unable to or unwilling?

Since you think God is not unable to save (very able to save), then the only other would be that HE is unwilling.
My post still satnds for you to explain.

You asked, "God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?"

This intends that you believe that God Can save anyone HE wants, which the concequence to that is this:
God is unwilling to(but HE can) save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

I think you got confused, please re-read that post.
I did not make any false accusations in which you did not make available.

L
Logic

andres wrote:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48...

this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd,

That verse is not meant to show the order in which things come, it is not to create a doctrine of such, it is only making a statement of a fact.

Please learn Hermeneutics & exegeses.
2Tim 2:15

What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?

A
andres

3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?
No, that is wrong!--logic
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.--logic
Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity. --logic

SCRIPTURE:
.. "IS it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is thine eye evil becasue I am good? So the last SHALL be first and the first sahll be last... For many be called but few are chosen.. MATT 20:15-16

C
Christinyou

Quote:


"""According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)"""

God says He chose those that are to be regenerated before the foundation of the world.

We do reach the truth, it is line upon line and precept upon precept. How can we even see or understand the things of the Kingdom if we are not born again. These precepts and line upon line are taught by the Holy Spirit that has been given by the Christ that is birthed in us and in the answered prayer of Jesus Christ from the Father. One would not know what to repent of or why to be baptized if it were not for the regeneration act of God and the birth of His Son in the Believer who the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and given the ability to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, since none would unless this process is acted upon by God the Father who reveals the Son is He Himself is the Son of God, and They are in each other with the Holy Spirit as One God. Your earthly Father did not ask your permission to give you birth, either does your Heavenly Father.

Holy Spirit, by Whom no one can say Jesus is Lord, without Him.

Without regeneration and the new birthing by the Christ in you, you cannot say Jesus is Lord, or be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Whom Christ promised us the "another Comforter", and also He Himself will not leave us alone, He will come again, birthed in the son's of God. The only Father of every son of God, who are the sons'? Those that are born of their Father God, not a created earthly satanic father but the living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Father of Jesus Christ and me also by my Father a birthed son of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Now you can believe line upon line and precept upon precept and as you say, "assend" unto sonship.

Ephesians 3:5-14 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Mystery is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

If you don't understand the birthing, you cannot understand the new creature we have become, and that keeps us in the works of man salvation, which is the lie of Satan and has been from the beginning.

Why are we forgiven, not for our goodness, but for Christ's sake.

Ephesians 4:30-32 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you Logic really read the Word of God, or do you just skim over the comments of others and bring your worldly philosophical answers to the table to prove you are right.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.

How can anyone be save by his own faith when God says, "we are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves". Grace is of God and the Faith that saves is of God also.

How can you dispute the truth, if that is what you are searching for.

Ephesians 1:1-14 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Who's Glory?

God's Glory given to us by the birthing of His Son in us, who is our glory, the only Hope we have.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip


A
andres

What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?- logic

His perfect will


W
whyme

Logic,

God clearly desires all men to be saved and commands all to repent and believe. Men's hearts prefer self will and their sinful desires and all would otherwise disobey the call and command. God, by particular election and love regenerates some of those by His always good and perfect will. Those whom He does not choose are still held accountable for their unbelief because they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him. They trample His Son's love under foot.

L
Logic

by andres on 2008/5/29 15:07:31
[b]3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?[/b]
No, that is wrong!--logic
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.--

Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity.

SCRIPTURE:
.. "IS it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is thine eye evil becasue I am good? So the last SHALL be first and the first sahll be last... For many be called but few are chosen.. MATT 20:15-16


Notice that HE asked, "it not lawful"?
It is not lawful for even God to condemn any of His creations with out reason.
I'm not saying that God can't do anythin HE wants that is lawful.

Stick with the context.

D
DesiJr

1 Timothy 6:1-5

"3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings[a] of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself."

I have to admit that I was tempted to be drawn into an argument. It is obvious to me that this thread has become about "being right" and not glorifying and directing the Church to Christ.

Anytime discussions break off the path of man's desparate and constant need to surrender to the Spirit God that faithfully points us to Christ, and seeks to confirm with other men our own muddy doctrine, it is time to step back, repent and praise God for his mercy and grace towards an imperfect and unprofitable people.

There is great arrogance in our thinking that we understand these mysteries in such clarity that our attitude one of a haughty spirit.

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

I am discouraged that we are so quickly given to these tasty arguments and that our words so quickly can be sent forth from our hearts to crush and not correct, to murder and not rebuke, to belittle and not reproof all in the name of Jesus.

So clear now is the scripture:

Matthew 7:15-23
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

L
Logic

andres wrote:
What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?
His perfect will
Your answer is purely arbitrary.
It is the opposite of critria,
God does nothing by arbitrary means.

L
Logic


whyme wrote:
Logic,

God clearly desires all men to be saved and commands all to repent and believe. Men's hearts prefer self will and their sinful desires and all would otherwise disobey the call and command.

This is not a definite conclusion, there is no proofe that it is.

God, by particular election and love regenerates some of those by His always good and perfect will
What are the critria, without useing an arbitrary answer, that God uses to elect?

Those whom He does not choose are still held accountable for their unbelief because they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him.
According to your theology/doctrine, they can't belive because God didn't give them faith and they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him because God will not "regenerat" them, therefore, you make God at fault for them being condemned.

They trample His Son's love under foot.
Why not, if HE didn't die for them?
It won't worsen there condemnation.

L
Logic

DesiJr wrote:
I have to admit that I was tempted to be drawn into an argument. It is obvious to me that this thread has become about "being right" and not glorifying and directing the Church to Christ.
Is there a wrong answer to my question?
All I ask for is correct answers according to the context of Scriptures.

Al I am getting are answeres that take the Scritures out of context and unreasonable responses.

If you could answer the questions posed to [b]whyme[/b] on 2008/5/29 14:30; along with the main question:
What are the criteria for God to choose the elect without giving an arbitrary reason & without partiality?

It is about "being right" because the wrong answere is usless.

If I am proven wrong, I will be persuaded.

There is great arrogance in our thinking that we understand these mysteries

My questions are not mysteries.

So clear now is the scripture:

Matthew 7:15-23
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves....ect...

As I said. People take Scriture out of context, as you did here.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)

God says He chose those that are to be regenerated before the foundation of the world.

You still haven't gave any criteria for this choosing, but only gave me a nonsense answere, "in Him"
You don't seem to understand what arbitrary means, or your just being stuborn.
Don't even bother to try again, beause it will be the same nonsenc as usual, unless you will ask questions to understand or make productive conversation.
Do not spue you strange doctrines on this thread as you usualy do

We do reach the truth, it is line upon line and precept upon precept. How can we even see or understand the things of the Kingdom if we are not born again.
One does not need to know anything about the Kingdom of God in order to repent!

that has been given by the Christ that is birthed in us
We are birthed in Him KNOCK IT OFF!!!!

and in the answered prayer of Jesus Christ from the Father. One would not know what to repent of
Sure they would if you give them the law.

or why to be baptized if it were not for the regeneration act of God and the birth of His Son in the Believer
You might as well stop replying on this thread. Your stuborn refusal to submit to sound doctrine and reason makes it rediculously futile to respond to you.

You continue to go against Scripture and say that Christ is born in man instead of the revealed Word of God telling us that we are born in Him.

You deny that it is a matter of Who or what one faith is in, instead you demand that it is a matter of whoe's faith one has.

You are almost cultic & I refuse to respond to your rheteric.

Now you can believe line upon line and precept upon precept and as you say, "assend" unto sonship.
I did not say that men assend or ascend, I said assent, get a dictionary.

If you don't understand the birthing, you cannot understand the new creature we have become, and that keeps us in the works of man salvation, which is the lie of Satan and has been from the beginning.
Apparently, you don't understand the "birthing"
I do not have the "works of man salvation".
I've refuted the work of the law(Rom 9:31-32 & Hebrews 4:2) & the work that is ergon(Greek) which is business, employment, that which any one is occupied.
I do not claim that man is saved because of these works.

Why are we forgiven, not for our goodness, but for Christ's sake.
I'm not claiming that we are, all I say is that God uses criteria in this election. That criteria are the set requirements that we must humble ourselves & submit to in order escape His wrath.

Do you Logic really read the Word of God, or do you just skim over the comments of others and bring your worldly philosophical answers to the table to prove you are right.
You can't be serious in this question.
As you can tell, I diligently study to show my self approved 2 Tim 2:15

How can anyone be save by his own faith when God says, "we are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves". Grace is of God and the Faith that saves is of God also.
As for Ephesians 2:8,9 there are two distinct clauses which you are wrongly combining.
The first half of the verse belongs together, For by grace you have been saved through faith”
dia pisteōs = through faith, functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi(are saved.)

Likewise, the second half, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

So, All this verse is saying is that the state of affairs of salvation is by grace through faith.

However, Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The word here for "works" means "occupation" or "that wich one employes himself in"
Therefore, Faith is not a work or an occupation or even anything that any one would employ themselves in.
Faith is a responce, assent of the mind.

How can you dispute the truth, if that is what you are searching for.
I should ask you why you refuse to accept the truth, if that is what your trying to show with all this Scriptur quoting?

I don't spin the Scriptures as you do, you do not give truth in your strange doctrines, you stubornly refuse commone sense & reason in your dividing the Word of God, furthermore, you do not exageticaly & hermuneticaly use the Scriptures corectly.

I am sure you will still use Ephesians 2:8,9 to your own advantage after I parsed it out and proved that you can not get your view establisht in that verse.
I did not come up with that.
Dr. Kirk R. MacGregor

Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
gave me this meaning to Ephesians 2:8,9.
He is fluant in Greek & Hebreww with an IQ of 175 and if He can tell you the truth of this verse, you are doomed in your own darkness.

Don't say that I am relying on the "wisdom of men" because I gave the credentials of this man, because you would be taking that concept out of context.

God's Glory given to us by the birthing of His Son in us, who is our glory, the only Hope we have.
See what I mean, you stubornly refuse correction.
You will never stop twisting the truth that we are "birthed in HIM".

You disqulify yourself to be of any credit since you don't even get this correct.

Sure you give lip srvice to John 3, but you actual believe the opposite by you persistance to this.
You can not be "birthed in God if He is "birthed in you." You can't haveit both ways.
You deny the very basic elements of the Scriptures.

You can not have faith in Christ if it is not your own, for Christ does not require faith in Himself. Therefore, you can not have His.

You base your whole theoloy/doctrine upon a preposition(of) that is not even in the original Greek and is put in eather from a bias on the translaters part or from an archiac use of English.

With this faulty theoloy/doctrine, you deny that you have faith?

Where is your faith(Luke 8:25)? how is it that you have no faith(Mark 4:40)?
Why would Jesus rebuke His desciples if all He needed to do us give them faith [b]or[/b] if all they needed to do was use HIS?

Without faith it is impossible to please him.
I know that you do have faith, however, you have this faith with zeal without knowledge(Rom 10:1) For you being ignorant of exagesis & hermunetics of the Scriptures, and going about to establish your own doctrine, have not submitted yourself to the dotrine of the Apostles.

You have a nonsencical theology/Doctrine, and even after this you will continue to persist in it.
Your stubornness or maybe pride of some sort will keep yourself from truning from this strangeness that you attempt to teach here.

C
Christinyou

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved, through faith - As ye are now brought into a state of salvation, your sins being all blotted out, and you made partakers of the Holy Spirit; and, having a hope full of immortality, you must not attribute this to any works or merit of yours; for when this Gospel reached you, you were all found dead in trespasses and dead in sins; therefore it was God's free mercy to you, manifested through Christ, in whom ye were commanded to believe; and, having believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, ye received, and were sealed by, the Holy Spirit of promise; so that this salvation is in no sense of yourselves, but is the free gift of God; and not of any kind of works; so that no man can boast as having wrought out his own salvation, or even contributed any thing towards it. By grace arc ye saved, through faith in Christ. This is a true doctrine, and continues to be essential to the salvation of man to the end of the world.

But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τηγαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεωςκαι τουτο ουκ εξ υμωνΘεου το δωρονουκ εξ εργωνινα μη τις καυχησηται "By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This ( τουτο , this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast." "The relative τουτο , this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις , faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent." But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man's own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.

There is only one criteria, believe.

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Believe or believe not, God knows.

John 16:31-33 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

How do we believe? "By the faith of Jesus Christ".

Romans 3:26-28 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In Christ: Phillip

B
boG

I posted my response on a new thread, found here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23780&post_id=186853&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#186853

W
whyme

Logic, if you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, if you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect.
Do you mean, what is God's criteria for choosing to create everything?

Good question, if that is what your asking. Let me know if it is.
Thanx

D
DesiJr

1 Corinthians 2:5
"5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

Arrogance and vanity in demanding that He answer our "why's".

Job 23:4
4 I would present my case before Him,
And fill my mouth with arguments.

Job 38:1-4,17, 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. 4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?"
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart?

Job 40:1-2
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2 “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”

Job 41:11
11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine.

Our Father is Holy and Perfect. He has given us a mind and a desire to seek Wisdom. Do not frustrate the Spirit of God in vain babblings.

Proverbs 3:7
Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

1 Peter 3:11-12
11 Let him turn away from evil and do good;
Let him seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”

Philippians 4:7
and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Brothers & Sisters,
Keep your hearts focus on the Truth of God, Jesus Christ. This is true wisdom and true knowledge. Seek to walk humbly before our Father who has graced us with the knowledge of His Glory by the Holy Spirit. Do not be high-minded, but with a contrite heart, surrender to His Spirit, and esteem one another above yourself. I pray that every one of our thoughts and words would manifest the fruit of the Grace and Mercy that God has freely given to us.

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

W
whyme

Logic, you have the right question.

B
boG

Job is not talking about presenting his case before God about why God gives salvation to whom He will. Job is talking about his afflictions because he finds no condemnation in his heart against God.


Why are you all screaming "dissembler!" when the man is asking no more than "how does one receive salvation?"

If you say, "Believe in Jesus." Then explain this statement.

Example, 1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

So then, how does one get the Son?

And, please, don't just say, "Believe in Jesus." We have already established this as truth. If you can't explain this by the wisdom of faith that works out its salvation with fear and trepidation, then, please, leave the answer to someone else.

By the way, I am confused by this line of questioning whyme.

If you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect.

Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it. The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not. Are you intending to correlate God's creation of created things to His criteria of who will be received into heaven or hell?

If so, I will be interested to hear what you have to say.

C
Christinyou

h 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I don't know how to say it or what you have in mind to say, but "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is Born of God", and that is the greatest hope of glory we can have. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

We cannot be son's of God without Gods Seed, A Father's Seed in us and Jesus Christ is that Seed, just like He was in Mary by the Holy Spirit, so also are we and we give Him a body, where He can do greater things through each of us being many and being His Body the Church, than what He has already done, as He promised.

John 3:15-18 That whosoever (((believeth))) in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (((believeth))) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that (((believeth))) on him is not condemned: but he that (((believeth))) not is condemned already, because he hath not (((believed))) in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Quote: If you say, "Believe in Jesus." Then explain this statement.

Example, 1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

So then, how does one get the Son?

Believe that He is who He say He is and the Father will birth the Son in us, thus becoming son's of God by rebirth.-------Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

"His Seed remaineth in him"-------1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Christ cannot sin and He remains in us.


Forgive me if I don't understand your question.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.

[b]This answer [size=medium]is[/size] one of the criteria.[/b]
Good Job!!!
[b]However[/b], you turn around a say this In the "The More Excellent Way" thread:
Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe.
The contrast to this is:
Faith in Christ, [b]NOT[/b] given by the Father that some can't believe.
This begs the question, what is the criteria for God to choose whom to give faith?

[b]So[/b], eather your answer is wrong because of your theology is correct
[size=medium][b]OR[/b][/size]
your answer is correct and your theology is wrong.


Which is it, is the answer correct, or your theology, you can't have both correct.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, if you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect./quote][b]what is God's criteria for choosing to create everything?[/b]

If I may quote another for your answer:
"Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it.
The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not."

Now, tell me His criteria in the creation of the elect as you said you would.
Thanx.

C
Christinyou

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"""Christinyou wrote:
How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This answer is one of the criteria.
Good Job!!!
However, you turn around a say this In the "The More Excellent Way" thread:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe."""

Yes, it is the inheritance of Christ given by the Father for the obedience unto death on the Cross that has save a wretch like me. The power of His Glory in the Saints, the same power that was in the resurrection that lifts us up that we might believe and be resurrected with Him after our death with Him, for, we are crucified with Him, died to sin with Him, lifted out of the grave with Him, and Him birthed in us, that we might be called the son's of God by His Incorruptable Seed.

We are spiritually clean and justified, redeemed, wise unto the things of God, and righteous, being made all these things by He that is in us, Made of God for this purpose. That we might have eternal life in Him because we believe, His pure power of resurrection power,

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

So how do we not get Jesus? All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Without God's intervention and calling none would be saved.
Believe not and you will not be saved. Who is responsible for the faith to believe if our faith cannot believe. It must be the Faith of God in Christ Jesus imparted to us that we might believe, or none would be saved. In that it is also Gods perfect choice to choose some to destruction and some to election as son's. All will die in Satan their father and only the elect will live in their Father God through His Christ.

Romans 9:18-24 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Mercy, His choice. Called, His choice. He is God and His choice and calling are true and Just in His own being the God of His own creation.

All don't believe, none 0, sip. But those that do believe by the intervention of God in Christ Jesus will be will be saved. His choice is all that is needed.

In Christ: Phillip

B
boG

that has saved a wretch like me

Now we are getting somewhere! :)

God is calling all men unto repentance.

Everyone, everyone, everyone is called by God.

God has mercy on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Everyone, everyone, everyone receives mercy from God.

Ezekiel 33:11
As I live, saith the Lord GOD,
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;
for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


The difference:
John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.

Matthew 9
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12. But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, [b]I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance[/b].

When the Holy Spirit is come, He shall convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment.

The "self-righteous" shall say to himself "I am well" and so his sin shall remain because he says in his heart, "I do not need the Physician". And so he hardens his heart against the testimony of God and calls Him a liar.

Luke 18
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, [b]God be merciful to me a sinner[/b].
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; [b]and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted[/b].

Justified = "to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin."

This sinner said as Paul, "I am the chiefest of sinners" and only Christ can save me from this "wretched man that I am"!

As the beautiful hymn, Rock of Ages, goes,
"Thou must save, and thou alone!

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die."

Without the conviction of sin, righteous, and/or judgment there can be [b][u]NO[/b][/u] salvation.

It is possible to know, I am a sinner, and not be convicted. It is possible to be grieved that, I am a sinner, and not be convicted unto repentance. God is not a liar nor did Christ die needlessly.

If you want to be one of God's "elect" than you must believe what God says about you. Just as much, as you believe what He says about Himself.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:[/
Christinyou wrote:
Christinyou wrote:
How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.

I wrote:
This answer is one of the criteria.
Good Job!!!

However, you turn around a say this In the "The More Excellent Way" thread:Quote:
Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe.

The contrast to this is:
Faith in Christ, NOT given by the Father that some can't believe.

This begs the question, what is the criteria for God to choose whom to give faith?

Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe."""

Yes, it is the inheritance of Christ given by the Father...

So how do we not get Jesus? All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Without God's intervention and calling none would be saved.

Believe not and you will not be saved. Who is responsible for the faith to believe if our faith cannot believe. It must be the Faith of God in Christ Jesus imparted to us that we might believe, or none would be saved. In that it is also Gods perfect choice to choose some to destruction and some to election as son's.
All don't believe, none 0, sip. But those that do believe by the intervention of God in Christ Jesus will be will be saved. His choice is all that is needed.

O.k

Your fist answer is wrong bacause you hold to your theology.

Therefore, answer the question correctly.

Also, by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give HIS faith to?

By the way, it does not do one(1) lick of good for you to quote all that Scripture, because it does not back-up what you propose.

Get serious, and answer the question if your going to continue posting on this thread.

You can not give an answer that begs the same question.

L
Logic

boG wrote:
that has saved a wretch like me
Now we are getting somewhere! :)
Not realy. He still thinks that God must first give that person the attitude which says, "that has saved a wretch like me"

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?

B
boG

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. Note that Jesus does not call this a parable. It is likely that Jesus is testifying to something that actually happened.

The son:
"And when he came to himself."
"He arose, and came to his father."

The father:
"But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."
"The father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

Jesus:
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

P.S.
Have you ever heard Keith Green's "The Prodigal Son Suite"?

C
Christinyou

Quote, Logic wrote:

"""Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

boG wrote:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that has saved a wretch like me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we are getting somewhere! :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not realy. He still thinks that God must first give that person the attitude which says, "that has saved a wretch like me"

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?"""

By His own immutable counsel, which is in Himself, that being "I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world", being you had not sinned yet and still I chose you to be in Christ Jesus. (My own thoughts for the witness that is in me.) I don't assume to speak for God, but this is what I hear Him say.

He knew that I would sin and He knew I would not be able to be reconciled to Him my Creator in my own flesh, being I could not chose Him, because our father Adam chose another god, who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him and this time being a born again son of Royalty a living breathing royal son of God, Heirs with Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son The Father birthed. I had to be rebirthed that I might be a son rebirthed. He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him, that is why He chose the way He did. When I get to heaven I might ask Him why He did it, if He does not reveal it to me now as I am a born again son of God by the Son that is in me, it is His Seed that make me a son of God.
I am a new creature, not of this world and in my spirit which is the Spirit of Jesus Christ I am His and already set with Him in the heavenlies.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I personally am still stunned that He would place the Incorruptable Seed, Jesus Christ Himself in me. That I might be called a son of God and brother to Jesus Christ who is God Himself. I did not deserve it I was lost and did no want to be found, and did not even know I was lost.

I have the witness in myself, that I am His and He is mine.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

He gave that record and put that record in my heart that I might believe.

Quote: Logics question:

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?

By His criteria, which I know not, because in my estimation, I have no right to be saved and cannot understand why He chose to save me and not someone else that was better that I. I am wretched in all that I was and He made me pure by His Son birthed in me, who gave me life that I might now live unto God and not Satan and self, for once I was dead but now I am alive.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

The Law was given so sin might become exceedingly sinful. It Killed me, from the very first one, "Don't eat".

Chosen in Christ before I ever became exceedingly sinful, by His own will and immutable choice, I live.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

In Christ: Phillip

B
boG

"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world", being you had not sinned yet and still I chose you to be in Christ Jesus.

That statement is altogether amiss. God is not bound in time. To say, "being you had not sinned yet" is to say there was a time when God was not Omnipresent in all of time and space. You are trying to say that because "in time" you had not been born yet to sin, God was therefore able to choose you. Do I even need to explain how this is wrong?

Scriptures say, rather, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Therefore, He did not choose us because we "had not sinned yet" but simply because He loved us (1 John 10). God chose us regardless of sin. His choosing us had nothing to do with our sin.

You may as well exchange the word "being" for "because", as you are attempting to give criteria for why God elected you (being --because-- you had not sinned yet), only this criteria is unscriptural.

(My own thoughts for the witness that is in me.) I don't assume to speak for God, but this is what I hear Him say.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are indeed children of God. He is saying "You are mine!" That is to say, you are hearing Him correctly, if indeed you have His witness in you. However, you are trying to make the witness of the Spirit of adoption to imply more than what He does.

The Spirit says,
"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) -- [b]Period[/b].
He didn't say that other stuff.

another god, who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him.

All of this disturbs me, it is wrong.
You are blaming Satan for man's crimes against God. This is unscriptural. This is the same as claiming that if God could get Israel out of Egypt then they would have a right relationship with Him. Do you know what happened when God took Israel out of Egypt? (hint: golden idol.)

Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." He did not say, "you are unwitting slaves to the devil. If only I could get you away from his influence you would be perfect." Did he? It certainly would be convenient for sinners if this were true. It is not true.

being I could not choose Him, because our father Adam chose another god

How exactly does Adam's disobedience make it impossible for us to choose God? How many times do you think the OT says to obey God and serve Him only?

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Sorry, but your doctrine simply isn't Christian. Man is to blame for his sin and shall be held accountable for all of his own sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) that are not crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20). If we were "unable to choose Him" because of any influence that was independant of ourselves (anything outside of our own will) then sinners could not be justifiably judged.

He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him

This is true, God is the Author and Finisher of our salvation. He made the plan and then he purchased it with His own Blood and gives it freely to whosoever believes on His Son unto eternal life. And man is indeed without excuse against the Righteous Judgment of God. As the Psalmist said, "Against You, You only, I have sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You are justified when You speak and blameless when You judge."

I did not deserve it I was lost and did not want to be found, and did not even know I was lost.

No, you did not deserve it; none of us do.

Yes, you were lost.

Why didn't you want to be found?
John 3:20
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

If this is why you did not want to be found then your statement is scriptural.

You didn't know you were lost?
Well, when the Light exposed your deeds, what happened? Did you realize you were lost? Indeed you did; and, then what? You changed your mind about not wanting to be found because the One who found you came to save you. Am I wrong?

So there was a time when you did not know you were lost. Nor did you want to be found because that would mean you were acknowledging yourself a lost sinner condemned to hell. Which simply isn't convenient knowledge to those who are perishing. But, you came to yourself, as the Prodigal Son did, seeing that you were lost. And also seeing that the reason you were lost was because you were without Christ.

Upon this rock, this revelation, you also did desire to be found. Otherwise you would not have asked Jesus to save you. As the Scripture says, "you have not because you ask not."

By His criteria, which I know not, because in my estimation, I have no right to be saved and cannot understand why He chose to save me and not some else that was better than I.

Why God set His affection on men is indeed a mystery.

Deuteronomy 7
6. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8. [b]But because the LORD loved you[/b], and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Why God loves ALL men is a mystery. Why God died for ALL men is a mystery. It is the Mystery of God's Love. Yet, let it not be misunderstood, for the Love of God hates sinners and iniquity (Psalm 5:5).

Now, the "WHY" God loves is a mystery. But it is no mystery when God says plainly, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [b]whosoever believeth in him[/b] should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you believe that what God "really" meant to say is "whosoever I choose to make believeth in Me should not perish"?

Is this what you believe?

W
whyme


boG wrote:
By the way, I am confused by this line of questioning whyme.

If you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect.

Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it. The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not. Are you intending to correlate God's creation of created things to His criteria of who will be received into heaven or hell?

If so, I will be interested to hear what you have to say.

I wrote the question in response to the implications in Logic's statements that God would be arbitrary in election of some if He did not reveal his criteria to us for His choice of some rather than others. My point was that there is no "cirteriA" given by God in who or what He creates in the first instance and I don't believe Logic would call creation arbitrary. Hence, in electing some to salvation wtihout revealed criteria or purpose does not make God arbitrary.

W
whyme


Logic wrote:
whyme wrote:
Logic, if you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect./quote][b]what is God's criteria for choosing to create everything?[/b]

If I may quote another for your answer:
"Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it.
The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not."

Now, tell me His criteria in the creation of the elect as you said you would.
Thanx.


So you have agreed that God is not arbitrary in creating the universe, including mankind, where he did so because he was "pleased to". My answer to your question is really a definition of Grace..... God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses out of His own pleasure without regard to merit or the creature meeting certain criteria. He chooses to save before eternity and then His Son must die to meet God's perfect justice so that God, the judge of the earth, can be merciful and gracious and still do right.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:

By His own immutable counsel,

[b]PLEASE GET A DICTIONARY!!![/b]
Quite giving arbitrary answers!!!

Do yu not know this is an arbitrary answer, or are you just teasing me?

He knew that I would sin and He knew I would not be able to be reconciled to Him my Creator in my own flesh,
He knew that all man kind would sin, what makes the difference that God chose you than the one who dies in their sin?
What is the standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to choose by HIS “immutable counsel”
Or
What rule or method does God God uses to choose by HIS “immutable counsel”?
What are the determining characteristic of the elect compared to the non-elect that HE would choose one over the other?

[b]Christinyou[/b], you can not give an answer that needs an answer of the same question.

You will never be able to answer these questions correctly with your current theology.

being I could not chose Him, because our father Adam chose another god,
What doe s it mater that our father Adam chose another God?
How would that cause you not to be able?

I know that you will not be able to answer these questions correctly eather.

who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him and this time being a born again son of Royalty a living breathing royal son of God, Heirs with Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son The Father birthed.
So, you agree that you think salvation is “forced on people”.

He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone
We know that, it’s not the issue, what are “His own” criteria?

and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him, that is why He chose the way He did.
Okay, what way did HE choose?

When I get to heaven I might ask Him why He did it, if He does not reveal it to me now as I am a born again son of God by the Son that is in me, it is His Seed that make me a son of God.
So, your saying that you don’t know, then you can not say that I am wrong.
Why are you attempting to answer if you don’t know?
Why not just say, “I don’t know”?
Why are you trying to say that I am wrong if you don’t know?

By His criteria, which I know not,
Then why are you posting on this thread?
Is it just to annoy me?
Is it to spread your illogical, unreasonable theology/doctrine?

You know that theology must always line up with reality, since yours doen’t, why to you continue to grasp on to it?

and He made me pure by His Son birthed in me,
Why do you continue in the heresy that He is “birth” in you?

Quit posting in this thread, Please.

Your not doing anything but throwing nonsence, twisted scriptures, herassey(Christ "birthed" in you), and annoyance.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:

So you have agreed that God is not arbitrary in creating the universe, including mankind, where he did so because he was "pleased to". My answer to your question is really a definition of Grace..... God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses out of His own pleasure without regard to merit or the creature meeting certain criteria. He chooses to save before eternity and then His Son must die to meet God's perfect justice so that God, the judge of the earth, can be merciful and gracious and still do right.

So, your basics saying that God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Furthermore, how do you supose that doing that which was our duty to do is anything of merit?

Another thing, If God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses, then those whom God chooses not to give repentence and faith are not responcible for not having faith and not repenting.

God is then responcible for the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world, because He eill not give them.

How do you handle your delema?

L
Logic

boG wrote:
"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world", being you had not sinned yet and still I chose you to be in Christ Jesus.
That statement is altogether amiss. God is not bound in time. To say, "being you had not sinned yet" is to say there was a time when God was not Omnipresent in all of time and space. You are trying to say that because "in time" you had not been born yet to sin, God was therefore able to choose you. Do I even need to explain how this is wrong?

Scriptures say, rather, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Therefore, He did not choose us because we "had not sinned yet" but simply because He loved us (1 John 10). God chose us regardless of sin. His choosing us had nothing to do with our sin.

You may as well exchange the word "being" for "because", as you are attempting to give criteria for why God elected you (being --because-- you had not sinned yet), only this criteria is unscriptural.

(My own thoughts for the witness that is in me.) I don't assume to speak for God, but this is what I hear Him say.
The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are indeed children of God. He is saying "You are mine!" That is to say, you are hearing Him correctly, if indeed you have His witness in you. However, you are trying to make the witness of the Spirit of adoption to imply more than what He does.

The Spirit says,
"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) -- [b]Period[/b].
He didn't say that other stuff.

another god, who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him.
All of this disturbs me, it is wrong.
You are blaming Satan for man's crimes against God. This is unscriptural. This is the same as claiming that if God could get Israel out of Egypt then they would have a right relationship with Him. Do you know what happened when God took Israel out of Egypt? (hint: golden idol.)

Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." He did not say, "you are unwitting slaves to the devil. If only I could get you away from his influence you would be perfect." Did he? It certainly would be convenient for sinners if this were true. It is not true.

being I could not choose Him, because our father Adam chose another god
How exactly does Adam's disobedience make it impossible for us to choose God? How many times do you think the OT says to obey God and serve Him only?

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Sorry, but your doctrine simply isn't Christian. Man is to blame for his sin and shall be held accountable for all of his own sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) that are not crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20). If we were "unable to choose Him" because of any influence that was independant of ourselves (anything outside of our own will) then sinners could not be justifiably judged.

He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him
This is true, God is the Author and Finisher of our salvation. He made the plan and then he purchased it with His own Blood and gives it freely to whosoever believes on His Son unto eternal life. And man is indeed without excuse against the Righteous Judgment of God. As the Psalmist said, "Against You, You only, I have sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You are justified when You speak and blameless when You judge."
I did not deserve it I was lost and did not want to be found, and did not even know I was lost.
No, you did not deserve it; none of us do.

Yes, you were lost.

Why didn't you want to be found?
John 3:20
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

If this is why you did not want to be found then your statement is scriptural.

You didn't know you were lost?
Well, when the Light exposed your deeds, what happened? Did you realize you were lost? Indeed you did; and, then what? You changed your mind about not wanting to be found because the One who found you came to save you. Am I wrong?

So there was a time when you did not know you were lost. Nor did you want to be found because that would mean you were acknowledging yourself a lost sinner condemned to hell. Which simply isn't convenient knowledge to those who are perishing. But, you came to yourself, as the Prodigal Son did, seeing that you were lost. And also seeing that the reason you were lost was because you were without Christ.

Upon this rock, this revelation, you also did desire to be found. Otherwise you would not have asked Jesus to save you. As the Scripture says, "you have not because you ask not."

By His criteria, which I know not, because in my estimation, I have no right to be saved and cannot understand why He chose to save me and not some else that was better than I.
Why God set His affection on men is indeed a mystery.

Deuteronomy 7
6. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8. [b]But because the LORD loved you[/b], and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Why God loves ALL men is a mystery. Why God died for ALL men is a mystery. It is the Mystery of God's Love. Yet, let it not be misunderstood, for the Love of God hates sinners and iniquity (Psalm 5:5).

Now, the "WHY" God loves is a mystery. But it is no mystery when God says plainly, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [b]whosoever believeth in him[/b] should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you believe that what God "really" meant to say is "whosoever I choose to make believeth in Me should not perish"?

Is this what you believe?

I wish I said all that.

I can't wait for theire responces to you.

B
boG

My point was that there is no "cirteriA" given by God in who or what He creates in the first instance and I don't believe Logic would call creation arbitrary.

I am not sure what you mean by "first instance". I guess you are talking about how God created everything in the beginning. No it would not be arbitrary as everything God created was according to His own Nature, thus, there was order. Before God created there was "void", "empty", "chaos" which are all arbitrary.

Hence, in electing some to salvation wtihout revealed criteria or purpose does not make God arbitrary.

Are you saying that God, in a sense, said, "OK, creatures, I have made you. Now, you are all on your way to hell. But there is a heaven, good luck finding it."

Like rats in a maze?
Many are the paths that lead to destruction and we have to therefore find the "straight and narrow path" by trial and error? Because God has not told us how to find it or how to walk in it?

How evil is this?

However, even in this consideration trial and error would imply that there was a "right" and "wrong" path, which by definition is not arbitrary.

The only thing arbitrary in this would be the process of finding the "right path" in this manner.

The very existence of the Bible is in complete contrast to your statement here. As the Bible is clear to say what the "right path" is and how to find it and how to walk in it.

"Seek and you shall find". Does it not say this?

Ah! Thank God! It does not stop there, as you all do.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27-28
[...] having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, [b]that they would seek God[/b], if perhaps [b]they might grope for Him and find Him[/b],

[b][u]though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist.[/b][/u]

Jesus declares, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me!"

As the Psalmist said, Psalm 27:8, When thou saidst, Seek ye My face; my heart said unto Thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. (This being to seek the End of the "right path".)

And again,

Psalm 119
97. O how love I [b]Thy law[/b]! it is my meditation all the day.
98. Thou [b]through Thy commandments[/b] hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for [b]Thy testimonies are my meditation[/b].
100. I understand more than the ancients, because [b]I keep Thy precepts[/b].
101. I have refrained my feet [b]from every evil way[/b], that I might [b]keep Thy word[/b].
102. I have [b]not departed from Thy judgments[/b]: [b]for Thou hast taught me[/b].
103. How sweet are Thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104. [b]Through Thy precepts I get understanding[/b]: [b]therefore [u]I hate every false way[/b][/u].
105. [b][u]Thy word[/b][/u] is a lamp unto my feet, [b]and a light unto my path[/b].


I do not understand why so many believe that God is silent.

Why God doesn't "reveal" to people they are sinners?
Or, why doesn't He "reveal" we are lost?
Or, why doesn't He "tell us" the Way to go?

Do I need to repost all the Scriptures which you should all be familiar with by now, that say:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Therefore, since God is clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, we are without excuse for disobeying Him. That is, living contrary to His revealed Nature.

We are WITHOUT EXCUSE not because we are lost but because HE HAS FOUND US!

HE IS OMNIPRESENT! REACH OUT AND TOUCH HIM, HE IS THERE! EVEN ALL AROUND US WHEREVER WE ARE! THAT HE SHOULD BE WITH US ALWAYS, IF WE WOULD BUT ACKNOWLEDGE HIM AND OPEN OUR HEARTS TO LET HIM IN!

Forgive me if I am excitable about the Love of God towards us.

For this I do know, The Lord is saying, "I have loved you with an Everlasting Love; Therefore I have drawn you with Lovingkindness."

God is Love. Therefore, He loves us with His Infinite/Eternal Divine Nature -- He sent His Son! Emmanuel -- God in the flesh, God with us! We are without excuse because of the testimony which God has given concerning His Son.

There is indeed nothing arbitrary concerning God's Love or His Salvation for men. He has set the path with His Own Blood and He has declared it to all men making "a public display", "having triumphed over" sin and death through Jesus Christ.

There is no mystery about this. There is no mystery why men perish. There is no mystery why men are saved. Christ came so "That [[b]all[/b]] should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us."

W
whyme


Logic wrote:
whyme wrote:

.

So, your basics saying that God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Furthermore, how do you supose that doing that which was our duty to do is anything of merit?

Another thing, If God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses, then those whom God chooses not to give repentence and faith are not responcible for not having faith and not repenting.

God is then responcible for the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world, because He eill not give them.

How do you handle your delema?


I really don't have a dilemna. Men are offered the gospel on a universal basis purely out of love, mercy and grace. Men reject the gospel of their own accord because they won't choose God, they prefer to rule over themselves and prefer their sin. God, however, elects some to salvation and gives them new hearts and a new nature. If anyone who hears the gospel will believe, then God will accept them. It is a sincere offer. The problem is that without effectual grace all men would reject the offer because they don't want God.

B
boG

I'm sorry sir, but ALL Grace is "effectual grace"!

Unless you believe that God has ever failed.

The SAME Effectual Grace -- who is Jesus Christ! -- has been given unto all men.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Another thing, If God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses, then those whom God chooses not to give repentence and faith are not responcible for not having faith and not repenting.

God is then responcible for the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world, because He eill not give them.

How do you handle your delema?

God, however, elects some to salvation and gives them new hearts and a new nature.
What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will "elect to give that "new heart & nature"

If anyone who hears the gospel will believe, then God will accept them. It is a sincere offer. The problem is that without effectual grace all men would reject the offer because they don't want God.
How it a sincere offer if God knows thay "can't choose" with out His "effectual grace"

What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will give that effectual grace"?

Round and round we go with no correct answer, all because they are traped by their own theology that CAN NOT admit the truth of the answer.

C
Christinyou

Those who will believe by Grace through Faith.

Those who cannot believe, which is all

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father — that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.

Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. Is it because Christ renews us by his Spirit, that the righteousness of God may live and be vigorous in us; or is it because, having been cleansed by his blood, we are accounted righteous before God by a free pardon? It is indeed certain, that these two things are always joined together; but as the certainty of salvation is the subject now in hand, we ought chiefly to hold by this reason, that we live, because God loves us freely by not imputing to us our sins. For this reason sacrifice is expressly mentioned, by which, together with sins, the curse and death are destroyed. I have already explained the object of these two clauses,

which is, to inform us that in Christ we regain the possession of life, of which we are destitute in ourselves; for in this wretched condition of mankind, redemption, in the order of time, goes before salvation. by: Calvin

In Christ: Phillip

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Here's a sermon by John Macarthur where he explains the attitudes and motivations that are at the heart and core of the "criteria" issue.
[url=http://boss.streamos.com/download/swn/saved/oneplace/mp3/2130624/gt20061002.mp3?siteid=podcast]John Macarthur - "Chosen by God", pt1 (audio). Left-click to download[/url]

Here's the transcript:
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Chosen by God, Part 1

1 Peter 1:1


Our text is 1 Peter chapter 1 verses 1 and 2 as we come to the second message now in our study of 1 Peter...1 Peter chapter 1 verses 1 and 2. Let me read them to you and we'll talk about them together tonight.

"Peter, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Capadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by the sanctifying work of the Spirit that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

Now the essence of this salutation as Peter begins his letter is to emphasize that those to whom he writes are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. And thus does Peter take a theological plunge of profoundly deep proportions at the very outset of this letter. The lesson for us tonight is going to deal with the subject of election, or being chosen by God.

Now I need to introduce this subject because it is a subject of great controversy and I want you to fully understand it. Let me say at the very outset that I will not be able to complete what I want to say to you tonight and if you do not hear what I say next Sunday night you won't have the whole picture. So it's important that you stick with us so that you'll fully understand this tremendous doctrine. And when we conclude our look at just these two verses and the doctrine of election, I'm going to show you the practical implications and the necessities of an understanding of this doctrine, not only for those that are saved but for those that are not saved. And it has tremendous implications for both.

The gifted Bible teacher, scholar, A.W. Pink who, by the way, died in 1952, once began a sermon by saying this, "I am going to speak tonight on one of the most hated doctrines of the Bible, namely that of God's sovereign election," end quote. He was right. It is a hated doctrine.

He later wrote these words, and I find them very insightful, "God's sovereign election is the truth most loathed and reviled by the majority of those claiming to be believers. Let it be plainly announced that salvation originated not in the will of man but in the will of God that were it not so none would or could be saved. For as the result of the Fall man has lost all desire and will unto that which is good and that even the elect themselves have to be made willing and loud will be the cries of indignation against such teaching." Then he says, "Merit‑mongers will not allow the supremacy of the divine will and the impotency of the human will. Consequently they who are the most bitter in denouncing election by the sovereign pleasure of God are the warmest in crying up the free will of fallen man," end quote.

What he's saying is it's hard for some people to accept the biblical doctrine of sovereign election. It's hard for man to acknowledge the fact that his salvation is an act of God. In his fallenness he wants to assume some responsibility, even if it's a small responsibility, for having believed. He wants some credit desperately for having made a right choice.

Furthermore, the doctrine of election seems repulsive to us because by our standards it seems unfair that God should out of all the world of human beings choose some at His own discretion to be saved and not the rest. But you understand, don't you, that the reason man so desperately wants to have a part is because in his fallenness he wants to exercise his pride. And so we can eliminate that as a real issue, it only is an expression of fallenness. What about the part about being unfair? Is God unfair? No, God is never to be measured by any human standard, certainly not by the human standard of fairness which is also a reflection of man's...what?...fallenness. Are we so foolish as to assume that we who are fallen sinful creatures have a higher standard of what is right than an unfallen and infinitely and eternally holy God? What kind of pride is that? Therein lies the real problem.

In Psalm 50:21 God said, "You thought that I was all together like you, how wrong you are." So many places in the Bible warn us not to assume that what we believe is the standard by which God must function. It says in Psalm 97 verse 2, "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne." Righteousness and justice are the very foundation of the throne of God. That is to say whatever God does proceeds from a base of righteousness and justice. It may not be human righteousness and human justice but it is divine.

In those familiar words of Isaiah 55:8 and 9, the Scripture says of God, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord, for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." We are in no position as fallen creatures to determine whether what God does is just, right or fair.

In Romans 11:33 the Apostle writes, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways for who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has become His counselor?" You've stepped out of bounds when you say that God does anything that isn't fair.

What is divine justice then? Let me give you a definition. What is divine justice? It is an essential attribute of God whereby He is infinitely and perfectly just in Himself, of Himself, for Himself, from Himself, by Himself and none other. That's a heavy‑duty theological definition. What is divine justice? It is an essential attribute of God, that is it belongs to His very essence, whereby He is infinitely and perfectly just in Himself, of Himself, for Himself, from Himself, by Himself and none other. Psalm 11:7 says, "For the Lord loves righteousness."

James Usher, many years ago, wrote, "The source of God's justice is His own free will and nothing else. For whatsoever He wills is just and because He will it therefore it is just, not because it is just therefore He wills it." You understand that? A thing is just because God wills it. He does not will it because it is just by human standards, He sets the standard. Divine justice is of an entirely different order and character than human justice.

And by the way, justice isn't the issue anyway. You don't want to talk too long about justice when you talk about salvation because if God gave us all justice we'd all be sent to hell. You see, the creator owes nothing to the creature...not even what He graciously is pleased to give to the elect. He doesn't owe that. How then could God be called unjust when whatever He does is just and the fact that He elected certain ones to be saved when they didn't deserve it anyway, how could that be unjust? Salvation is never a matter of justice, it is always a matter of grace, pure grace. And it always seems curious to me that God seems to be gracious most often to those who seem to be the most undeserving. And so not only does it to some people seem unfair that God chooses some but it seems unfair that He chooses the ones He chooses. For when Jesus came He rejected the religionists and the do‑gooders and chose the harlots, the prostitutes, the outcasts, the poor, the social rejects and that's the plan, not many noble, not many mighty. He's chosen the base things of this world. And in many cases, in most cases, passed by the mighty, the noble, the religious, the educated. YOu really don't want to try to figure this thing out from the standpoint of is it fair. God did it, that makes it just. God sets the standard of what is just. If you don't understand what God does, that doesn't mean He doesn't live up to your standard, that means your standard doesn't live up to His standard. He is God.

Now in order to understand this matter of God choosing us to salvation we have to go to the Scripture. And I warn you, when we are all through with the study there will still be an element of mystery in your mind. And there are two reasons for that. Reason number one, you are fallen and therefore you do not think pure divine thoughts. Two, you are finite and cannot grasp the fullness of the infinite mind of God. And so it calls upon faith to trust God for what we know He has revealed in the Scripture.

Now in discussing the doctrine of election, really there is no better more condensed section of Scripture than the one before us. And Peter frankly gets into the thick of theology right off the starting blocks. He's not even out of the first verse before he introduces "chosen." And then launches into a very brief but profound statement about the essence of election.

Now as he addresses his readers it is his intention in these first two verses to identify them as the ones who are chosen of God. He identifies them in two ways. First he identifies them in relation to their place in the earth and secondly, he identifies them in relation to their place in heaven. As far as earth goes they reside scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Capadocia, Asia and Bithynia. As far as heaven goes, they are the chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by the sanctifying work of the Spirit who obey Jesus Christ having been sprinkled with His blood. So he identifies their earthly identification and their heavenly as well.

Now let's look briefly with regard to their earthly identification. The readers to whom Peter writes are said to be residing as aliens, or strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Capadocia, Asia and Bithynia. Now we need to touch that because we need to understand to whom he writes. Would you please notice the word "scattered." It is a familiar word to any student of the New Testament, it is the word diasporas in Greek. You may have heard the word diaspora, it means dispersion. In the gospels it is a technical term for the dispersing of the Jews throughout the world. It is so used in John 7:35. It is also used of Jews scattered throughout the world in James 1:1. James writes to the Jews who have been dispersed. That is scattered from their homeland into other parts of the world. Whenever you see it, John 7:35 and James 1:1, it is the dispersion, definite article, it is a technical term for the whole aggregate of Jews...now follow this...who since the Asyrian and Babylonian captivity have been scattered throughout the world...the dispersion.

It is my conviction that Peter is not using it here in a technical way such as James does. There is no article here, it is not THE dispersion, it is simply scattered. And the translators of the New American Standard have helped us with that by simply translating it "scattered." So that it appears to us not a technical term but a non‑technical reference to some scattered people.

Some say, "Well now, don't you think that it's probably the scattered Jews since Peter was called to be the Apostle to the Jews according to Galatians 2:7 and that therefore he would have them in mind?" Well not necessarily. Certainly he was the Apostle to the Jews and certainly wherever God gave him the opportunity to minister to the Jews he did so faithfully. But the absence of the definite article and the tone of two other verses in this epistle lead me to believe that he really doesn't have the Jews in mind particularly. Notice chapter 1 verse 17, he's writing to these people scattered, he says if you address as Father the one who impartially judges according to each man's work conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth. The implication here is your earthly duration, your earthly stay which leads us to believe that he's talking about people who are not so much strangers in an alien culture as strangers on the earth itself. Chapter 2 verse 11, "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul." And again the alien and stranger here seems to be the person who is in environment that is foreign to his nature and is doing war against his soul. So he's not concerned to talk about a Jew who is nationally an alien as much as he is concerned to talk about a believer who is spiritually an alien. A much wider audience which would certainly include some Christian Jews as well as Gentiles. The Jews perhaps were in the minority, we would assume that in the Gentile provinces to which this epistle is addressed.

So what he is saying is not to you Jews who are scattered throughout alien countries, but to you Christians who are aliens in the earth. You are true aliens and strangers and pilgrims. You don't belong here. The church is a group of strangers scattered throughout the world, away from their true home. In fact in Philippians 3:3 Paul says, "We Gentile Christians all of us in the church, Jew and Gentile, the whole church, we are the circumcision of a spiritual nature." And here I think Peter is saying we are the scattered, the diaspora in a spiritual sense. So the idea is that he's writing to believers who in the world are aliens or strangers. He's addressing the church, that's simply it. He's addressing the church, the church in Pontus, the church in Galatia, Capadocia, Asia and Bithynia. Those by the way are provinces, they occupy what we know today as modern Turkey. They were part of the Roman Empire in the time of Peter. Pontus was a province in the far north, mentioned in Acts 2:9, Acts 18:2. Galatia, a very familiar province moving south sort of in a circle, Galatia was that area where the cities of Derbe, Lystra and Iconium existed to which Paul ministered many times.

Then coming from the north through Galatia to the south and making a little turn west, like a half circle, you come to Capadocia, mentioned also in Acts 2:9. There were strangers from Capadocia who had come into Jerusalem and they were there at Pentecost when the Spirit fell and they spoke in tongues by the power of the Spirit. Then going west and up a little bit into Asia and then back to the north again, Bithynia. So Peter in his mind does a circular sweep through all of that area and mentions the various provinces of that area. He leaves out Pamphylia, a familiar province, and a few others are not mentioned. But he is writing to Christians scattered throughout those Roman provinces and so we conclude then that the letter had a very wide audience.

In those provinces there would be a number of churches. We know in the province of Asia, for example, of at least seven or eight churches. Seven of the churches in Asia have received letters from the Lord Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3. And there were other churches in Asia, like Colossae, not mentioned in Revelation. So there may have been a number of churches in Pontus, a number of churches in Capadocia, a number of churches in Bithynia as well. Christians scattered as aliens in a foreign land, namely the unregenerate world.

So Peter is writing to a lot of folks. And why such a wide audience? Because the persecution that had come against the Christians as a result of them being blamed for the burning of Rome was sweeping through the Roman Empire. And everywhere that persecution went, Christians were going to have to pay the price of suffering. And so he writes as if to embrace them all in this epistle which teaches them how to face suffering triumphantly.

But more important than their relationship to the earth is their relationship to heaven. And the thing that he wants them most to know is that they are chosen by God. He wants them to grasp that tremendously comforting reality. In the midst of their persecution when they might be questioning so much, he wants them to know they are the chosen of God. And so at the end of verse 1 he says, "Those who reside as aliens scattered who are chosen." Let's take the word "aliens" who are chosen. Aliens means strangers, as we said, those who are dispossessed in a land not their own. It can mean temporary residence, it can mean foreigners. Either way they were temporary residents and they were foreigners. Theirs was a city not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Theirs was a temporary stay until they were called to the Zion which is above, the writer of Hebrews calls it. These aliens, the church, the redeemed, the believers are chosen...eklektos from the verb kaleo and the preposition out, to call out, the called out ones. It's a verbal adjective here, it means to pick out or to select. In fact, you could even translate it this way, and this would be beautiful, "choice aliens...select aliens." It's a term for Christians, that's all. The chosen, the saved are the chosen.

We don't call ourselves that. If somebody asks you what's your religious preference, you say, "Oh, I'm a Christian." Have you ever said, "Oh, I'm one of the elect?" What? I'm choice. I am one who has been selected by God for salvation. But that's a term for Christians. By the way, it even was a term for Israel of old to identify them. Deuteronomy, you perhaps remember this very familiar verse, Deuteronomy 7:6, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Well you better understand that. God wasn't sitting up in heaven saying, "I hope some nation will believe Me and choose Me." No, out of all the people on the earth, "I chose you. Israel, Mine elect." That's Deuteronomy 7:6. Deuteronomy also 14:2, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." He repeats the same thing again...chosen. Psalm 105:43 calls Israel "His chosen ones." Psalm 135 verse 4 says, "For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself, has chosen Israel for His own possession." Israel was elect.

You say, "Well is that true also of the church?" God hasn't changed His plan. God hasn't changed His method. The Old Testament said, "No man seeks after God." The Old Testament said, "There's none righteous, no not one." God chose His people, Israel, by His own free choice. And so does He the church and we are the elect. Let me show you this. In Matthew 24 verse 22, just pick up the thought that we are the elect. Verse 22, "Unless those days...that is the days of the great Tribulation...be cut short, no life would have been saved." Listen to this, "But for the sake of the elect, the chosen, those days shall be cut short." Who are the elect? The believers. Verse 24, "False Christs, false prophets will arise, will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the...what?...the elect, the chosen, the believers." It is a term for believers, for Christians. Verse 31, "When He sends forth His angels with a great trumpet at the Second Coming, they will gather together His...what?...elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

In Luke's gospel chapter 18 verse 7 says, "Now shall not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night and will He delay long over them?" We come to Romans the great epistle of Paul, that marvelous eighth chapter verse 33, "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?" We're elect. Colossians chapter 3 verse 12, "And so as those who have been elect of God, chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion," and so forth. You've been chosen of God to be holy and beloved. He determined to set His love on you and me for no reason of ours at all, but strictly of His own free choice. The elect of God, that's who we are.

Second Timothy 2:10, "For this reason, Paul says, I endure all things in my ministry for the sake of those who are chosen that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus." I am doing my evangelistic ministry to bring the gospel to the elect...the chosen. Titus, when Paul writes that letter he couldn't say it anymore straight‑forward. "Paul, a bond servant of God and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God." Second John, that little epistle, describes the church as the chosen lady, the elect lady, 2 John 1; 2 John 13, the children of your chosen sister greet you. Two churches, both elect.

So you see, when Peter says I am writing to the elect of God, or the chosen, he means believers. Now catch this, will you please? The term "elect" or "chosen" is synonymous with Christian, with saved, with born again. And the rich reality of that term is to remind us that we are the chosen of God. He made the choice, not us. And what Peter is saying I think is so wonderful. What he's saying to these persecuted Christians is, "Hey, you may not be the choice of the world but you are the choice of God." Can you grab that? That's comforting. That's a rich reality. And listen, it was intended to be an encouragement to persecuted believers.

Now as we look a little more closely at this, I'll give you a little list of the elements of election. Let's see how far we get.

Number one, the nature of our election...and we're just going to take it phrase by phrase, it is so rich...the nature of our election. Verse 1, "Who are chosen...who are chosen." Chapter 2 verse 9, please notice it, Peter says, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession." You are a chosen race. Beloved, can you grasp that reality? You are a Christian because you are chosen to be one by God. That's what the Bible says. It is the chosen who are the saved. The term, as I said, means to select, to pick out, to call out from among. And Peter is simply saying that Christians are people God has chosen to belong to Himself. That's the nature of election. The nature of election is God has chosen a people to belong to Him, and we're that people. God chooses people out of all the world to belong to Him.

In Acts 15:14, I think that's the right verse, we read this, yes, "Simeon, or Peter, has related how...this is the Council of Jerusalem...how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name." God's whole plan is to take out a people, to choose a people.

Now something inside of you resists this, doesn't it? You say, "Now wait a minute, you mean we're just chosen?" And you fight against that. Your fallenness fights that because we would like to think in part it depended on us...that's pride. We'd also like to think, "Well it sounds unfair," that's pride saying, "God, I'll straighten you out when I get to heaven." You don't understand what fair is. You have to retreat to faith, my friend. You have to retreat to faith. What does the Bible teach? Does the Bible teach that we are chosen by God or doesn't it?

Let's have a little Bible lesson, okay? Get your Bible, open it to Matthew chapter 20 and get ready, we're going to move. You must understand this. You have a parable here, the Kingdom of Heaven, like a land owner, went out in the morning to hire labors for his vineyard. He agreed with the laborers for a denarius, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out the third hour, saw others standing idle in the marketplace, went through the process, hired them....hired them...hired them...hired them. Selected them, the whole parable all the way down to the bottom, he picked out who he wanted and he rewarded them with eternal life, that's the essence of the parable. Very simple. He selected them. Called them into his service. Sent them out to serve. Rewarded them fairly, faithfully, generously. That is a picture of election.

John 15, John 15, do you remember this verse? Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not...what?...choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it you." You didn't choose Me, I chose you.

You say, "Well wait a minute. I chose You, too." No, you didn't choose Me, I chose you, that's what I said. That's how it is.

Look at John 17:9, He says of Christians, praying to the Father does our Lord, "I ask on their behalf," this is the high priestly prayer of Christ, "I do not ask on behalf of the world but of those whom Thou hast...what?...given Me." The Father chose us and gave us to Christ as a love gift, for they are Thine.

Look at Acts chapter 13...most interesting, most interesting. Acts chapter 13 and verse 48, here Paul is preaching to the Gentiles, huge crowd on the Sabbath day and it says, verse 46, let's pick it up there, "Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, said it was necessary that the Word of God should be spoken to you first since you repudiated it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold we're turning to the Gentiles, that is turning from the Jews to the Gentiles, for thus the Lord has commanded us, I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, that is the gospel message, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life...what?...believed." The chosen believed. Those appointed to eternal life believed.

Look at Romans chapter 9 and verse 14. Here is the obvious antagonist who's going to reply. God is talking about choosing. He says, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." God made His choice. Verse 14, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God is there? May it never be." Me gennetos(?), in the Greek, no, no, no. It's...it's not injustice, for He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," which is to say I will do precisely what I want to do. Verse 16, look at this, "So then it, salvation, does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy." Sovereign mercy. Humh. And somebody in verse 19 says, "Well then how can He find fault with somebody? Well who can resist His will?" On the contrary, "Who are you, O man, who answers back to God." Keep your mouth shut, it's beyond you. "The thing molded will not say to the molder, Why do you make me like this, will it? Does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? And what if God although willing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."

Listen, God has just as much right to use His attribute of destruction and wrath and put that on display against ungodly, as He does to put His grace and love and mercy on display for those He elects. Very clear, don't argue with God. You're only showing your pride, and the ignorance of your finite mind. If you can't understand it, believe it. That's what it says, that's exactly what it says. It doesn't depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who will have mercy on whomever He decides to have mercy.

Chapter 11 of Romans, verse 5, "In the same way then as in the case of the prophet Elijah and seven thousand men who didn't bow the knee to Baal, in the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according...listen to this...to God's gracious...what?...choice." God's choice.

First Corinthians 1, just moving through, verse 9, "God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son." Your salvation was a direct work of God. He called you into fellowship with His Son.

Look at Ephesians chapter 1 verse 3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ," verse 4, are you ready, "just as He chose us in Him," that is in Christ, "before the foundation of the world." When did it happen? When were we chosen? Before we were born. Before anybody was born. Before there was a world we were chosen.

Can you handle this thought? As long as there is God, we've been chosen. Grab that one. You say, "How long has God been around?" Forever...forever. You want to know something? You were chosen in eternity past. As long as God has existed, His elect have been in His mind. Whew! Unbelievable. Chosen. On the basis of His choice, verse 5, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the kind intention of His will, so that it would be to the praise of the glory of His grace, not ours. He chose us. As long as He's been God we've been chosen. Whew! That's an unbelievable thought. As long as God has existed, John MacArthur was in the plan. I was in His mind...so were you if you belong to Him. That is an intensely thrilling thought.

Look at 1 Thessalonians chapter 1 verse 4. Paul is so encouraged by the Thessalonian church he says in verse 2, "We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers." Like the Philippian church, this was a beloved congregation. He didn't know them as well. He hadn't stayed there as long, only three sabbaths. But he loved them. And he says, "I look at your life and I see...in verse 3...your work of faith, your labor of love, your steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren, beloved by God His choice of you." He chose you...that's apparent. He chose you.

Second Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 13, listen to this. "We should always give thanks to God for you," we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has...what?...chosen you from the beginning." You say, "What's that?" I don't know...I don't know what that is...the beginning. What beginning? I don't know. "From the beginning for salvation." Did you get that? God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation. I don't know how it could be said more clearly than that. How could anyone not see what that says?

Second Timothy chapter 1 verse 9, here's another one of these mind bogglers. He talks about God at the end of verse 8, then he says, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity." Now we're finding out what the beginning is...all eternity. He has known that we were the elect from all eternity. He has granted us in His mind as long as He has existed that we would be saved. And it's all according to His plan and His purpose and His grace and not us. Remarkable...remarkable truth.

Look at 2:10, 2 Timothy, Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," and he endured a lot. "For the sake of those who are chosen that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory." My ministry is to reach the elect, he said...reach the chosen.

Revelation chapter 13, in Revelation 13:8 listen to this, talks about the beast and the Antichrist of the Tribulation time in the future. It says, "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everybody's going to worship him, the whole world's going to worship him except everyone...it says...will worship him whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain." When was your name written down? From the foundation of the world. When was that? I don't know. But as long as God has existed He's had me in His mind. As long as God has existed He's had you and I who are Christians in His mind and predetermined to love us and to make us like His Son and He wrote our names in His book before the world began.

Chapter 17 of Revelation verse 8, and here again the beast will be worshiped and adored and it says, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.

So when someone says to you, "What religion are you?" you can say, "I'm one of the chosen." "Chosen by whom?" God. "Really, when?" Forever, as long as God has been God He's chosen me, loved me. "Why?" Certainly had nothing to do with me. I just showed up and I was elect. "Well did you do some good works to deserve it?" No, there was no me when God decided it.

Verse 14 of Revelation 17, "These will wage war against the Lamb, that is the host of the Antichrist, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those who are with Him are the called and...what?...chosen and faithful." We're the chosen.

One final mention, chapter 20, this is amazing. Final judgment, Great White Throne, "If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life he was...what?...thrown in the lake of fire." When were names put in the book? From before the foundation of the earth. Boy, elect...that's just part of what Scripture says about it.

We resist that. Something in us struggles with that. Look at Luke 4, it will comfort you, you're not alone. Luke 4, interesting, Jesus in this marvelous synagogue event in Nazareth, opened the book of the prophet Isaiah, stood up in the synagogue, opened the book, read it. This is what He read, verse 18, and here was a prophecy that He was fulfilling right out of Isaiah 61. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord. And He closed the book and gave it back to the attendant and sat down and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon Him and He began to say to them, Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing. And all were speaking well of Him and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips and they were saying, Is this not Joseph's son?"

So far so good...so far so good. But watch what happens. Verse 25, "I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, no rain, when a great famine came over all the land." There were many widows. "And yet Elijah was sent to...what?...none of them but only to Zarephath in the land of Sidon to a woman who was a widow. And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha, the prophet, and none of them was cleansed but only Naaman the Syrian." You know what He's telling them about? Sovereign grace...lots of widows and lots of lepers and God picked none of them but a widow in Zarephath and a leper named Naaman who wasn't even a Jew, he was a Syrian. "And all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things, they rose up, they cast Him out of the city, they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built in order to throw Him down the cliff."

Let me tell you something. The respectable religious leaders of Israel despised the doctrine of election...especially when it pointed out that they were not the elect. You can't debate the truth, this is the truth. You can't debate it. They didn't want to hear it. Many today don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. You see, in Revelation 19:6 we are told, "The Lord God omnipotent reigneth," God in heaven is the controller and the disposer of all creatures. Scripture says, As the Most High He rules amid the armies of the heavens and none can stay His hand and none can say unto Him, What are You doing? He is the almighty who works all things after the council of His own will, He fulfills all His own purposes, makes all His own promises come to pass. He is the heavenly potter who takes the lump of clay, fallen humanity and fashions it the way He wants to fashion it. He is the decider and the determiner of the destiny of every person. He is the controller of every detail in every individual's life which is simply another way of saying that God is God.

Arthur Pink again said, "The only reason anybody believes in election is because he finds it taught in God's Word. No man or number of men ever originated this doctrine. Like the doctrine of eternal punishment, it conflicts with the dictates of the carnal mind and is repugnant to the sentiments of the unregenerate heart and like the doctrine of the holy trinity and the miraculous birth of our Savior, the truth of election must be received with simple unquestioning faith."

So the nature of election...God's divine will selects some for salvation. Is that hard for you to handle? I confess to you that I struggle with that. I believe it with all my heart because the Bible teaches it. There's something pretty thrilling about it, don't you feel that way? Something pretty exciting about that reality. There's something immensely humbling about it...immensely humbling. I mean, it literally destroys pride. I mean, what can we claim...nothing.

You say, "Well what about...what about the people that aren't elect?" Well the Bible says they go to hell because of their unbelief. And God takes no responsibility for that. You say, "I don't understand that." That's right, I don't understand that either. But I understand my God and I understand what he said in His Word. And He said you're condemned because you believe not on Me. You say, "How do you harmonize this?" I don't, God does in perfect justice.

The reason God gave us the doctrine of election was to tell us two things. One, He's in charge. Two, He is so gracious to those of us who could never have earned it that we ought to spend our eternity praising His glorious name. The doctrine of election is not given to us to confuse us. It is given to us to devastate our pride and to elicit our praise. And we're going to find out more about that next Lord's day. That's one out of five, John Zimmer didn't think I'd finish one.

Let's pray together.

[i]Lord, there's so much more to say about this. We have just touched the surface. But, Lord, we're beginning to understand what Your Word says, even if we can't fully grasp in our minds all that that implies. Help us to walk in faith knowing that You're a God who is consistent, perfectly just, perfectly righteous and that You have absolutely no contradiction in Your person. We who are saved are saved because we were chosen in Your mind for as long as You have been God, and we did nothing to contribute. You even produced the faith in us, You even produced and granted us repentance. You produced obedience by Your Spirit. And, Lord, we also understand that those who go out into eternity and don't know You are responsible for their own unbelief because that's what Scripture says. And so we cry to the unsaved to believe and we praise You for choosing us and leave the resolution to You. Thank You, God, for choosing us. Why oh why, we are so grateful. And may that gratitude come forth in a life of loving thankful commitment to You. And we long for the day when we can be in Your presence and praise You unhindered and unrestricted forever and ever and ever for choosing us.

We pray for those who do not believe. We pray, O God, that men might not turn their back on You for Jesus said, "Him that comes to Me I will in no case cast away." And may we who are saved be comforted by the doctrine of election and may the lost not be turned away by that doctrine but hear the words of Jesus, "Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest."

We've just begun to study this, we want to understand it as best our finite minds are able. Be with us. Help us that we might fully praise You for Your sovereign grace in the Savior's name. Amen.[/i]

[url=http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/60-2]http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/60-2[/url]

L
Logic

I knew you couldn't answer the question.
However, you still remain stuborn in your unchristian doctrines.

BTW, are you even a christian?
It is dificult to tell with your theology and your stuborn rebelion against reproof.
You miss handle the Word of God and bring in new age philosophies such as, "the christ born again in you" or "birthed with in you"

Christinyou wrote:
Those who will believe by Grace through Faith.

Those who cannot believe, which is all

The disability would excuse them from the obligation to believe, which makes them innocent of unbeliefe.

The repercussons of your theology are disasterous.

If you preach this to the unsaved, it gives them a license to not believe. Because they just can't therefore they don't have to.
Since they don't have to, then they are innocet and free from the penalties of sin.

Therefore, I beg you not to preach to the lost.
Or the saved for that matter.

For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith.
Would you stop trying to "preach" your not proving anything but your own failure to repent in mishandeling the Word of God.

What you have is not insight, if that is what you think.
If your not going to answer the qustions, why do you bother posting?
Your statment here brings the same question that you refuse to answer, What is the criteia for God to choose whom HE will open the eyes of?

Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith;
This kind of faith is not wonderful, but biased and arbtrary.
It can only come from a sadistc tyrant.

This god in apathetic for those who he created which he condemned because of a great great great great great great great great relitives sin.
This god in unwilling to rescue those who can not repent or have faith.
This god is able but chooses not to, for no reason but just because.

This god is limited in mercy, finite in love and grace.
he is nothing to be worshiped or adored.

for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father
According to your theology/doctrine, Christ is not received or accept from God, but forced upon them because they didn't want it him the first place.

Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ
Which Christ? Which faith?
Your christ whom is birthed in man, or The One in Whom man is birhted into?
The faith that all mankind has but refuses to put it in/on HIM,
or your kind that only a chosen few can have by luck?

Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us.
In your religion it maybe not evident, but the True Christian theology/doctrine, it is very evident.

I am sure that you are a new ager, "the christ birthed in you".

C
Christinyou

Daniel 4:34-37 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

The source of our election, it came out of a predetermined plan in which God before the world began knew us, knowing us not in the sense of observation, which He also knows everything in the sense of observation. But, Knowing us in the sense of a predetermined relationship, that's the source. It was in His own mind. He knew it into reality. He knew it into existence before it ever happened.

This why your question is not relative when it comes to election and salvation. That is why as I have said many times He has birthed His Son in us that we might be the son's of God also, being born again of Incorruptable Seed by the Word of God, chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is Christ in you that is the hope of Glory, not what man chooses, to make God unfair or unloving, if He did not look down eternitys road by His own foreknowledge, not that man has any good in him and would accept what God says and see that man has any good in him that He would use any criteria except His own will and His own Plan from before the world was ever created, The Christ Ones were chosen in Him, and the Holy Spirit finished the election and and we became Christ Ones because we could now believe that He, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, whom in His, The Father's election has elected us as son's of God also.

Your Judgement of me is invalid, for I accept no Judgement except the Judgement of God and He has made me a son, a royal priest hood, set apart for the Glory of God.

1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Listen to what Spurgeon said and I'll close. "Before salvation came into this world election marched in the very forefront. And it had for its work the billeting of salvation. Election went through the world and marked the houses to which salvation should come and the hearts in which the treasure should be deposited. Election looked through all the race of man, from Adam down to the last, and marked with sacred stamp those for whom salvation was designed. He must needs go through Sumaria said election and salvation must go there. Then came predestination. Predestination did not merely mark the house, it mapped the road in which salvation should travel to that house. Predestination ordained every step of the great army of salvation. Predestination ordained the time when the sinner should be brought to Christ, the manner how he should be saved, the means that should be employed. It marked the exact hour and moment when God the Spirit should quicken the dead in sin and when peace and pardon should be spoken through the blood of Jesus. Predestination marked the way so completely to the house that salvation does never overstep the bounds and is never at a loss for the road. In the everlasting decree of the sovereign God the footsteps of mercy were every one of them ordained," end quote.

Beautiful

John MacArthurs Prayer whom I agree with whole heartedly:

And, Lord, we would pray that even tonight in this place there would be some whose election becomes reality even this hour who having been chosen of God are now the recipients of mercy and saving grace, who are granted repentance and faith and set apart from sin unto You. Do that work, Lord, for Your glory. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Wonderful teaching intrcssr83, Both downloads are right on.

Thank you for them.

In Christ: Phillip

B
boG

It is disappointing to me that you believe Spurgeon is supporting your view of "election".

but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens

I will post it again,
Acts 17:27
That they should [[b][u]ALL[/b][/u]] seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

Speaking of eyes being opened, how about this Scripture.

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

"Redemption" is another word for "salvation". They mean the same thing.

So exactly what do you mean by "redemption" that it should come "before salvation"?

What do you think of this following Scripture?

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.

According to you, "the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens", therefore, since God has not opened their eyes they are all blind and have no sins.

W
whyme


Logic wrote:


How it a sincere offer if God knows thay "can't choose" with out His "effectual grace"

What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will give that effectual grace"?

Round and round we go with no correct answer, all because they are traped by their own theology that CAN NOT admit the truth of the answer.


Logic,

You confuse the means of salvation with your own concept of the "criteria" of salvation. In order to be saved you must repent and believe. You make that a criteria, I suggest they are means of salvation. In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted. I say that prayer is a means to God's purposes being accomplished, not a cause. You carefully avoid the word cause and instead use the word criteria. Same difference to me. It has always been a man centered activity to change the means into the cause. The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.

M
Miccah


whyme wrote:



In order to be saved you must repent and believe.

Yep, that pretty much sums up this entire thread.

Repent and believe. Continue to repent, continue to believe. Turn from your wickedness and repent. Accept Jesus and obey Him. Honor the Father in heaven like the Son honors Him.

This is the message of the Gospel.

Do this, and you will be saved.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic wrote:

How it a sincere offer if God knows thay "can't choose" with out His "effectual grace"

What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will give that effectual grace"?

Round and round we go with no correct answer, all because they are traped by their own theology that CAN NOT admit the truth of the answer.

Logic,

You confuse the means of salvation with your own concept of the "criteria" of salvation. In order to be saved you must repent and believe.

Yes, I know that. they are a couple of the criteria.
However, you then say that repentence and daith must, first, be given before anyone can put their faith on Christ and repent.

That demands the same question as the original.
By what criteria does God use to decide whom HE will give repentance and faith?

You make that a criteria, I suggest they are means of salvation.
They are the means in wich God saves, elects, redeems, delivers...ect...
However, they are nesesary for God to save, otherwise he will not.

Will He save anyone who refuses to put faith on HIM?
if so, how?

Will He save anyone who refuses to repent?
if so, how?

will he make anyone want to be save by domination, tyrany, or userping their mind?

In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted. I say that prayer is a means to God's purposes being accomplished, not a cause.
Preyer is of the relaitionship that we have with God.
God requires prayer to for us to know Him and relate with Him.
Is it not true that if one does not pray, he will not reciev?
If it is God's will for you to have something and you do not ask for it, will you receive it?
James says no(James 4:2-3).
Therefore God's "purposes will be thwarted.
However, His ultimate purpose will not be.

You carefully avoid the word cause and instead use the word criteria.
Yes, with out using criteria for the cause, it would be arbitrary.
What do you think arbitrary is?
do you actualy think God is arbitrary in His decisions?

Same difference to me.
It is not realy.
Try to decide anything without the criteria being the cause for what you choose.
if you do not, all you have is an arbitrary decision that has no preference or reason.

It has always been a man centered activity to change the means into the cause.
Actualy the criteria is the means by wich God uses to decide.

How else couyld it be with out being arbitrary?

The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.
How do you get passed the fact that [b]IF[/b] faith and repentance was a gift that must be given first, God wouyld be responcible fore the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world?

How do you get passed the fact that [b]IF[/b] faith and repentance was a gift, God is angry at people for that which HE will not give?

If God commands faith and repentance, why wouldn't He give it instead of condemning?

You run into a lot of trouble making faith and repentance a gift that must be given first.

Fact is that faith, repentance and obediance are not meritable.
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

We have “merited” nothing. We have not “benefited” God, or laid him under “obligation;” the slave who only does what he is commanded by his master to do has gained nothing.
All that we do is what is our “duty;” we cannot lay claim to having rendered any service that will “bind” him to show us favor.

Faith, repentance and obediance do not save anyone, they only provide reception for the relationship with Chrit which saves.

The ones who refuse to have faith, repentance and obediance are condemn for their rebelion.

You have God condemning just because He wants to for no reason at all.
Sure we are all sinners, but so are the elect compared to the non-elect. What makes the elect to be chosen over the non-elect without being arbitrary?

W
whyme

Logic, I appreciate the debate but it really isn't a useful one if you won't address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed. Further, if that in fact is possible, then His purposes aren't arbitrary just because He doesn't reveal them to me.. Is that possible?

God always wills what is good, just and righteous because that is His character. If He does something, like election, I have God given faith that what he has done is consistent with His character even if I don't understand it with my very puny intellect.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, I appreciate the debate but it really isn't a useful one if you won't address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed.
They are revieled, you just can not admit them because of your theology.
I even prooved from sound reasoning why Faith, repentenc and obedience are the criteria, and why they can not be "gifts".

You have no reason for not agreeing but your own pride in your theology.

Further, if that in fact is possible, then His purposes aren't arbitrary just because He doesn't reveal them to me.
He has revield them, but you have been clouded in yoiur mind by unreasonable theories.

Your theology will not let you even answer these reasonable questions:
How do you get passed the fact that IF faith and repentance was a gift that must be given first, God would be responcible fore the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world?

How do you get passed the fact that IF faith and repentance was a gift, God is angry at people for that which HE will not give?

If God commands faith and repentance, why wouldn't He give it instead of condemning?

They are only commone sence answeres.

If He does something, like election, I have God given faith that what he has done is consistent with His character
You are only being stuborn to reason.

Answer my questions above to proove that your faith is "God given"

Isn't it if HE didn't give you that "gift of faith", you would be inoccent for not trusting Him?

even if I don't understand it with my very puny intellect.
God is able...
...to let you understand...

...if you only ask with a pure heart.

B
boG

In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted.

God has been working in this world long before and without man ever praying. Prayer is not powerful because we multiply our words. But because we have a prayer-hearing God. And let it be known that Jesus, our High Priest, is ever praying and interceeding for the world.

It is interesting to me that you believe that salvation is -- 100% God and 0% man

and then say -- God cannot do any work (0%) in this world unless man is praying (100%).

Does that not seem strange to you?

The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.

You have completely misunderstood what we have been discussing. Faith is given in measure, as a gift of God, to ALL men. This is Scriptural you can read it for yourself. Then God says, "Choose this day whom you will serve!"

You have run from one extreme doctrine, that salvation is 100% man (which is a lie), to the opposite extreme that salvation is 100% God (which is a lie).

The MEANS of salvation is indeed 100% provided by God in Christ. However, the effectual power of salvation is unity between man and God, in Christ.

Unity, to say, man and God working together as One Spirit in Christ Jesus.

What you need to do is take your concept of all of salvation being 100% God and your concept of all of prayer being 100% man and unite these two together. When you do this then you will have a balanced theology in harmony with Scripture.

Faith, repentance and obediance do not save anyone, they only provide reception for the relationship with Christ which saves.

The act of salvation is by grace through faith. Faith being a gift of God which ALL men have already received.

Even the smallest measure of faith, the size of a mustard seed, can cast down entire mountains. The smallest measure of grace, likewise, can save even the most destitute of sinners.

There is no such thing as faith or grace that is "not effectual". There is only faith and grace that is not used by men to glorify Christ Jesus.

When that faith is exercised by men to seek God's Face then God will be found by them, for He shall reveal Himself. This "being found" is by grace through faith and results in salvation. Initially this is called being "born-again" by the Word of Christ. And this salvation being a "seed". A seed which needs to grow, being buried, hidden, in faith. As the Scripture says, "work out your salvation with fear and trepidation."

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." God guides, directs, and gives everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. But it is in our hands to be diligent with all that He has given us. All that is required of a steward is that he be faithful.

Matthew 18
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, [b]I forgave thee all[/b] that debt, [b]because thou desiredst me[/b]:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, [b]if ye from your hearts[/b] forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Hear these powerful words. "If you from your hearts". If you will not forgive then God will not forgive you. If you will forgive from your hearts, so will God forgive you from His Heart in Christ Jesus.

This is unity, working together.

Read the Bible and see:
If you will...
THEN I WILL, sayeth the LORD.

And what are the "if you will"'s? Obey the Voice of the Lord and submit yourself to His Will. God's will is that none should perish but all have everlasting life. Therefore, the Father sent His Son. He provided the means of salvation for all men to receive and haply come to Him; even as a mothen hen gathers her chicks. The chicks come and the mother hen gathers. Sinners repent and Jesus brings them to His Father. Working hand-in-hand together to His glory.

I am confused how it can be so disgusting for many of you to believe that a depraved man would forsake his own way and deny himself, take up his cross, and daily follow Jesus.

Why are you all so against a man desiring to know God and seek Him and please Him and be found in Him? FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE THE FATHER LOVED THAT WRETCHED SINNER AS HE LOVED HIS OWN SON CHRIST JESUS!

You say, God has to put that desire to be saved in the "elect". Well, why didn't He put that same desire in the condemned? He died for the condemned too, didn't He?

Didn't He die for all men for all time? That none should perish?

Is it God's will for man to be saved? Yes.
Does God give all that man needs to be saved? Yes.
Is God the Author and Perfector of the work? Yes.

The Lamb who was slain is worthy to receive the reward of His Sufferings! I tell you the truth that not a billion universes could ever begin to repay the debt of love we owe Him! And still how many billions of souls from this one planet will be cast down into hell completely and utterly contrary to the will of God and forbidding the Lamb His JUST REWARD!

Such is the Love of God towards us! That He pleads with every man, come unto Me all of you who are weary and heavy-laden! My yoke is easy and My burden is kind, I will give you rest for your souls!

My God is worthy to receive every last man unto Himself for eternity for His Name sake. Yet, such is His love, that even if not one man ever loved Him in return, He would have died for us all the same!

Your god who "opens the eyes" of some with "effectual grace" and leaves blind the rest of the world with, what must be, "ineffective grace" is despicable to my heart. Every man who denies Christ is not a blind man but a monster of iniquity who loves his sin and wants to stay in it! He isn't blind he is selfish!

If Jesus says you are blind, He isn't saying because you do not see Him. But because you do not see your self! Who you are without Christ!

Perhaps, I am simply preaching to the choir. But I have at least learned one thing. It is impossible NOT to love someone you have wept for in prayer. I wonder if you know the burden? If you know the agony? I assure you God has given every man sight to see Him and faith to know Him and extended out salvation to every sinful heart. O, How the Father rejoices over even a single sinner saved! All of heaven rejoices with Him!

1 Peter 4:18. AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER ?

And what "difficulty" is there in your doctrine of "salvation"? You who leaves every man's free will to God sovereignty. You say, He will do it all, even make your decisions for you.

If any man lacks wisdom, LET HIM ASK of God, who gives!

If God were to do it all, with such ease would this salvation business be. But God casts His Pearls, even Jesus Christ, before the swine of men, that we are; hoping against hope that we will but heed His Word.

Tell me, what is all this wasted paper in my Bible that pleads with me to humble myself and pray, to turn from my wicked ways and seek His face? What are these wasted words that say Jesus died so that not one single man should perish?

You say, Jesus died for every man ... except those He didn't allow to know He died for them.

NONSENSE! I will not have any part of that lie!

My Jesus suffered and died and went down to the pit of hell and up again in triumphant glory and HE DIDN'T DO IT IN A DARK CORNER! His resurrection wasn't a secret!

Don't tell me God hasn't given every man eyes to see and faith by which they may know Him. Don't blame my Jesus for the exceeding sinfulness of men's hearts.

He loves everyone
Died for everyone
Weeps for everyone
Pleads with everyone

He is ever at the ready to save each and everyone who will but cease from their own wicked way.

Just because God knows who will be saved, and works everything to the good for them, doesn't mean He took away any of our ability or choice to outright hate Him and not turn from our wicked ways. Every sin committed is with emnity to the knowledge of God. Even we who are saved, how much more grievious are our sins who have received Christ in our hearts? With such difficulty are we saved!

Have you no compassion for this eternally condemned world? This pitiful existence of sinners?

How could you? They can't "see" anyways, "the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens". I don't suppose what the sinner can't see won't bother your conscience. While you boast of walking on streets of glory and feasting on the Bread of Heaven. And, they, unending torment in a Christless existence.

There is nothing more beautiful this side of eternity than a man who [b]freely wills[/b] the Will of God in Christ. "Not my will, but Thine be done!" Your theology has no part of this because man has no part (0%) in your "salvation".

B
boG

address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed.

Genesis 18
17. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18. Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19. For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


How much then shall God withhold from those He has already given His Son? Who have received the "Promise of Abraham."

Psalms 103:7. He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the sons of Israel.

John 15:15, No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing.

If you do not know what your Master is doing perhaps ought to judge yourself whether you are still a slave.

Galatians 4:1. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything.

W
whyme

Logic, I'll give you a couple of verses on faith as a gift from God set forth in Scripture:

1. ....in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom.12:3.

2. ...for it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph2:8.

3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23

Those should do for now. I'll be glad to also provide the passages that say that God grants repentance to the believer. It seems to me that you would prefer to argue over your own perception of fairness and avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose. I continue to marvel that there are many scriptural references to election on both a corporate and personal level in Scripture and no scriptural references to the concept of free will in salvation. Why would God's sovereignty have to be so explicit yet you are perfectly comfortable with man's free will being completely implicit.

C
clintstone

none of the human race are born sinners God is not the author of sin ,the devil is no creater, sin is not anything constitutional.the result of sin is constitutional but not the sin itself. we christians are not sinners anymore we are saints a royal piesthood in Christ ALL has become new.our spirits souls and bodies preserved blameless unto His appearing .paul called himself perfect and holy and blameless many times . most misinterpretations of scripture would be cleared up if people would keep in mind that hthe bible never contradicts itself and that the word rightly divided never says man will always have sin in us until we physically die and nowhere is death viewed as a part of getting rid of sin .

C
Christinyou

Logic, is this kinda what you are looking for in the criteria of God to choose the elect and predestinate them to salvation?

God's Predestination of the
Accomplishment of His Will

As explained in "The Principle of the Creation", Gen 1 to 4 the Purpose of the Creation is fulfilled only when man fulfills responsibility, which is to live in accordance with God's commandments. God's will for the Dispensation for Restoration, which is to fulfill his Purpose for the Creation, is absolute, and is therefore beyond human influence. Nevertheless, the fulfillment of his Will depends on man's fulfilling his responsibility. Then to what degree does God predestine the fulfillment of his Will? God's Will is absolute, but the realization
of his Will depends upon man's fulfilling his responsibility. God predestines that his Will is to be accomplished -- but only through
the accomplishment of both God's responsibility and that of the central person. We can say that man's responsibility is "5 percent"
and God's "95 percent" as a means of indicating that man's responsibility in fulfilling God's Will is very small compared with God's. However, in order to accomplish this "5 percent", man must put forth his 100 percent effort. Thus, God predestined that his Will was to be fulfilled when Adam and Eve fulfilled their responsibility not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree
of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17). In the dispensation for salvation through Jesus, God predestined that fallen man would fulfill
his responsibility when he believed in Jesus as the Messiah and followed him (Jn 3:16, Mt 19:21). Yet man has rarely carried out his
small portion of responsibility, and this has caused the fulfillment of God's Dispensation for Restoration to be delayed again and again.
As the following Bible passages show, even in our day-to-day life we receive God's saving grace only when we do our part: "... the prayer
of faith will save the sick man ..." (Jas 5:15); "'... your faith has made you well ...'" (Mk 5:34); "'For everyone who asks receives, and
he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened'" (Mt 7:8). Clearly, God predestines that his grace can be received only
when man accomplished his responsibility.

God's Predestination of the Central Person

In order for God's Will to be fulfilled, God must select someone to fulfill man's responsibility (as will be explained in "Overview of the
Principles of the dispensation for Restoration"). However, the person chosen by God may either fulfill his responsibility or fail to fulfill it. Thus, God does not predestine that a person will fulfill the role (mission) that God desires him to have. Then, does God predestine man at all, and if so, to what degree?
Yes, God does predestine man. When God predestines someone for a mission, he predestines that person "95 percent". In other words, he
predestines a person to the extent that when that person carries out his "5 percent" portion of responsibility, he is fully able to carry
out the mission for which he was chosen. Should a person fail to fulfill his responsibility, he cannot become the person that God wanted him to be, nor can God's will to fulfill things through him be realized.

For example, on the foundation of God's "95 percent preparation", God predestined that Adam and Eve become the True ancestors on the
condition that they fully carry out their responsibility. However, because of their failure to do so, God's Will was not fulfilled. As a result of this failure, it became necessary for God to send the Messiah as the True Father for mankind. God also predestined that
Judas Iscariot be Jesus' apostle on the condition that he carry out his responsibility by being loyal to Jesus. However, when Judas
betrayed Jesus, God's will remained unfulfilled, and God replace Judas with Matthias (Acts 1:15-26)Next, let us examine the factors which qualify a person to be chosen by God as the central person in the Dispensation for Restoration. First, the person must have been born of the central nation, the nation chosen to carry out the dispensation for Restoration. This is because the chosen people are closest to God in heart.

Second, that person must be descended from ancestors who have a history of righteousness. It is natural that for the fulfillment of
the Dispensation for Restoration God would choose those who have a long line of distinguished ancestors who have accumulated merit
through their sacrifice and service for the good of their fellow men.

Third, that person must be endowed with a natural disposition suited to the mission in question.

Fourth, that person must have acquired the proper education, training, and experience necessary to accomplish the mission.

Fifth, that person must have been born at the right time and place to carry out God's Will.

However, Even though a person may have all of these qualifications and be predestined by God for a particular mission, whether or not he
fulfills that mission is not predestined by God. Attaining and maintaining his role is determined by his fulfilling his responsibility.

If this is what you are looking for, then God fails and man has no chance of fulfillment, except in himself. Where is Christ in this?

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:45-58 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

In Christ in the heavenlies: Phillip

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, I'll give you a couple of verses on faith as a gift from God set forth in Scripture:

1. ....in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom.12:3.

Why did you take the part out that puts it in context?

[b]Rom 12:3[/b] [color=990000]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/color]
This is the "commone faith" that is of the "religion" as we find here:
[b]Eph 4:5[/b] [color=990000]One Lord, [b]one faith[/b], one baptism,[/color]

Notice Paul tells us to "prophesy according to the proportion of faith"(Rom 12:6).
Then Paul implies all these according to the proportion of faith:
to let us wait on our ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching; Or he that exhorts, on exhortation(7-8)

2. ...for it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph2:8.
No one can prove anything in this verse if you understand the Greek structur og the verse.

The first half of the verse belongs together [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]
"through faith" functions as the “indirect object” clause of "are saved".
And [b]that[/b] (kai [b]touto[/b] in Greek) is in the neuter, and so refers not to "faith" (pistis in Greek) which is in the feminine or "by Grace" (charis in Greek feminine also, but to the whole state of affairs of "[color=990000]by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]"
I'll repeat ([b]that[/b]) in greek "touto" refers to the entire statement, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color] thus we could accurately paraphrase, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift[/color].

3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23
It is not the faith that Paul is making the object of this salutation, it is the "peace and love", which should always be accompanied with faith.
Notice, it doesn't say, "Peace to the brothers and love [b]AND[/b] faith from God the Father"

This might proove your case, because the "and" is copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force, which would mean the faith is also from God.
However, the Greek word "meta" - "with" implies accompaniment.

You can not proove that faith is from God in this verse if taken in context and read corectly.

I'll even add an give the correct interpretation of another "pet verse" that y'all use to "proove" faith is a gift.
[b]Hebrews 12:2[/b] [color=990000]Looking to the Prince who leads us in our walk to completion, He is the very One who will complete our salvation by the glorification of our bodies[/color](Rom 8:23) [color=990000]who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.[/color]

I'll be glad to also provide the passages that say that God grants repentance to the believer.
Go right ahead and I'll show how you mishandle them too.

It seems to me that you would prefer to argue over your own perception of fairness and avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose.
I'm not discussiong "fairness" but justice and what is right, reasonable, logical, correct and that which lines up with reality, which you dismiss.

Your theology is illogical, unreasonable, unjust, and does not even line up with reality.

Furthermore, I do not "avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose"
I only correct the wrong interpretations that you make of them.

I continue to marvel that there are many scriptural references to election on both a corporate and personal level in Scripture and no scriptural references to the concept of free will in salvation.
Your references are always taken out of context as I even proven above.
The only reason you do not see free will in salvation is because your erroneous interpretations, definitions of words and your acceptance of sadistical injustices from a tyranical diety.

Why would God's sovereignty have to be so explicit yet you are perfectly comfortable with man's free will being completely implicit.
This is one of your erroneous definitions.
[b]God's sovereignty:[/b] The ultimate authority.
All mankind being accountable to HIM.

God's sovereignty is not the ultimate cause of every thing, not the ultimate domination of everything.

You deny free will because you think that if once must choose to obey, put their faith in/on Christ, and repent, you think that man has merited something.
I have proven the that is untrue.
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

We have “merited” nothing. We have not “benefited” God, or laid him under “obligation;” the slave who only does what he is commanded by his master to do has gained nothing.
All that we do is what is our “duty;” we cannot lay claim to having rendered any service that will “bind” him to show us favor.

You also think that if man must obey, put their faith in/on Christ, and repent, you thing that He saves himself by these.
Actualy the relationship with Christ is what saves because of these.

You als deny free will because you think it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, free will magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

God's sovereignty is explicit, but you must knbow what it is.
Furtheremore, man's free will is also explicit.

C
Christinyou

I think every one would agree that we all have a measure of faith.

I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot inter the light, the light must come out of darkness.

So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith. Twist it, change it, trample on it, but it is still the Faith of the Son of God that saves us by the Grace of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Israel's Faith was in darkness and they could not keep the law either their justification by faith was for the elect only.

The uncircumcision is saved through Faith that is given by God and the elect do believe and hear through faith that is the light of the world, which makes the Law void in the believer, the Law is still perfect and it is fulfilled in us by the Christ Seed we are born again with.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

It is all Him and in Him and of Him. Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

To change or body like His which is Gods work and renew our minds to the Mind of Christ which we have in us, is the Holy Spirits work. Just like He changes our faith, from faith to faith.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is salvation in Christ and by the Grace of God through Faith. The Greek in its textual context might not be saying that it is the Faith of God, but the light must come out of darkness and be able to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. There is only one place where this Light can come from. It comes from the One that is Light in the hearts of men. This is the saving faith that is in Eph 2 unto salvation by Grace.

Even Isaiah speaks of this light. Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Specifically pointing to Jesus Christ who is the light of our Faith and the only Faith that can see the kingdom, for unless you are born again you cannot see, know, feel or hear the things of the kingdom of God.

Who the light hath shinned upon and who He is.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He truly is our light in the darkness and our faith is truly of Him, lest our faith still be in darkness and we stumble on the root out of dry ground and fall and end up as the seed fallen on the Side of the road and die.

By the Faith of Jesus Christ we are saved by Gods Great, Precious and the most costly Grace ever given, The Cross: Phillip

M
Miccah


clintstone wrote:



none of the human race are born sinners God is not the author of sin ,the devil is no creater, sin is not anything constitutional.the result of sin is constitutional but not the sin itself. we christians are not sinners anymore we are saints a royal piesthood in Christ ALL has become new.our spirits souls and bodies preserved blameless unto His appearing .paul called himself perfect and holy and blameless many times . most misinterpretations of scripture would be cleared up if people would keep in mind that hthe bible never contradicts itself and that the word rightly divided never says man will always have sin in us until we physically die and nowhere is death viewed as a part of getting rid of sin .


what?

W
whyme

sorry to repost, I don't yet understand how to format quotes and responses up right.




Logic wrote:


3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23
It is not the faith that Paul is making the object of this salutation, it is the "peace and love", which should always be accompanied with faith.
Notice, it doesn't say, "Peace to the brothers and love [b]AND[/b] faith from God the Father"

This might proove your case, because the "and" is copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force, which would mean the faith is also from God.
However, the Greek word "meta" - "with" implies accompaniment.

Whyme response; Since faith "accompanies" love, which it always does, please now interpret the words "from God" if you would.


The only reason you do not see free will in salvation is because your erroneous interpretations, definitions of words and your acceptance of sadistical injustices from a tyranical diety.

Whyme response: I'm not trying to preach here and forgive me for admonishing you but, if I am right (along with alot of other reformed believers ) then your words are really poorly chosen. If the reformed view is wrong, however, I don't think God is going to hold our view against us because our motive is to be truthful to the light we've been given and to honor God.

God's sovereignty is not the ultimate cause of every thing, not the ultimate domination of everything.

Whyme response: Could not disagree more.
.


You als deny free will because you think it would diminish God's sovereignty.

Whyme response: No I don't. It wouldn't bother me one bit if God ceded his sovereignty to man by His own eternal fiat.

This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans.

Whyme response: Not at all. Man exercises his will and God uses that. What fundamentally appears bothersome to you is that God would change a man's own wicked heart to a heavenly one without man's permission and/or if He does do that that He doesn't do that for everyone. I don't struggle with those things because I trust God is always good, always just and always does right.


Furtheremore, man's free will is also explicit.

I can't find explicit references to free will in salvation anywhere in the Bible.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
I can't find explicit references to free will in salvation anywhere in the Bible.
Here is a few.
I am sure you could have found these yourself, but I am also sure that your theology is hindering you.

[b]Deuteronomy 11:26[/b] [color=990000]Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
[b]27[/b] A blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
[b]28[/b] And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which you have not known.[/color]

[b]Deuteronomy 30:15[/b] [color=990000]See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil;
[b]16[/b] In that I command you this day to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and the LORD your God shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it.
[b]17[/b] But if your heart turns away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;[/color]

[b]1King 18:21[/b] [color=990000]And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long do you halt between two opinions? if the LORD is God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.[/color]

[b]Joshua 24:15[/b] [color=990000]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.[/color]

[b]Isaiah 1:19[/b] [color=990000]If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:
[b]20[/b] But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword:[/color]

[b]Jeremiah 21:8[/b] [color=990000]And unto this people you shall say, Thus says the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.
[b]9[/b] He that abides in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goes out, and falls to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prize.
[b]10[/b] For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, says the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.[/color]

W
whyme

You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free". God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could certainly choose to do it but we don't. Why? The Bible says why. Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light. The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.

By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledgle, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
I think every one would agree that we all have a measure of faith.

I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

What does it matter where the faith is as long as one does as commanded and put that faith in/on Christ?

This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot inter the light, the light must come out of darkness.
It is not a matter of where the faith is comming from, it is not a matter of who's faith it is, it ia only a matter fo who or what the faith is in/on.

Any one can see light from with in darkness, and the Scriptures do not say anywhere that someone can not come into the light.
Actualy, mankind are commanded to, this implies the ability.

Israel's Faith was in darkness and they could not keep the law either their justification by faith was for the elect only.
Actualy, they had no faith, not that their faith was in darkness.
Please, stop your twisting the Scriptures.

To change or body like His which is Gods work and renew our minds to the Mind of Christ which we have in us, is the Holy Spirits work.
The reserection is that which changes our body(Rom 8:23, 1Jonn 3:2, Php 3:21, 1Corinth 15:42-44, 1Corinth 15:48-54.
Please, stop your twisting the Scriptures.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free".
The command implies free will.
It would be ridiculous to command anything knowing the inability to obey the command.

God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could [b]certainly[/b] [b][size=medium]choose[/b][/size] to do it but we don't. Why?

Your statement does not make sense.
First you say that we can't choose, but then you say that We could [b]certainly[/b] choose.
Your whole premise is on the question why we don't.

The answer is only because we do not want to for many reasons.
You can not say that we can't just because we don't want to.

Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light.
The same question comes around; we choose to desire the darkness.
not because we can not desire the light.

The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.
There is no inability here either.
Desire is able to be chained by the will.

Example.
I like to eat only ketchup.
I will only eat ketchup all week and every meal, nothing else but ketchup.
Maybe even ketchup soup, ketchup hot, ketchup cold, but only ketchup.

Then someone comes and tells me that I will die because of the bad diet. My truth of certain death will change my desired diet. I will now choose to eat a well rounded meal because I chose to change my desire because of the truth.

By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledge, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.
This is a true gift of faith, let me explain by example.

My pastor prayed for a man's broken leg in a cast. Pastor told the man to go home and take the cast off. Pastor had the "Gift of Faith" that the "[b]Gift of Healing[/b]" had taken place.

An hour later, the "Gift of Faith" had left Pastor. He called the man to warn him not to take the cast off, fearing that he was mistaken.
However, the man had already taken the cast off and was running & jumping praising God.

You see, the "Gift of Faith" is to believe for certain something that can not be known from anything from outside except from a Devine revelation.
It is only temporary until it is not needed any more.
I also had the "Gift of Faith" come upon me when I knew for certain that God was going to speak audibly to my friend about her burden.
I had no reason to know this, no Scriptural backing, and God rarely speaks audibly.
However, right after I told her that God would speak to her in an audible voice, the "Gift of Faith" left immediately.
She then took my "[b]word of Knowledge[/b]" for truth and 15 minutes later, in the shower, she heard God audibly and started yelling, praising God.

The Gift of Faith is not normal faith, it is believing with certainty with no other witness for the truth of it but from divine revelation.

Normal faith is based upon outside witnesses of the Word of God, other Christians, creation it’s self and the reality of life.

C
Christinyou

Israel had the measure of faith that God gives to all man, but not the faith of Christ unto salvation.

You are right Logic, they had none of this saving faith, for it had not come yet.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Israel had the measure of faith that God gives to all man, but not the faith of Christ unto salvation.
You are right Logic, they had none of this saving faith, for it had not come yet.
There are not two kinds of faith, it only matters what or Who you put that only one kind of faith in/on.

would you knock it off with your new age philosophies.

Deuteronomy 32:20
Galatians 3:23
These verses prove nothing you say, I don't know why you posted them.

W
whyme


Logic wrote:
whyme wrote:
You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free".
The command implies free will.
It would be ridiculous to command anything knowing the inability to obey the command.

God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could [b]certainly[/b] [b][size=medium]choose[/b][/size] to do it but we don't. Why?

Your statement does not make sense.
First you say that we can't choose, but then you say that We could [b]certainly[/b] choose.
Your whole premise is on the question why we don't.

The answer is only because we do not want to for many reasons.
You can not say that we can't just because we don't want to.

Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light.
The same question comes around; we choose to desire the darkness.
not because we can not desire the light.

The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.
There is no inability here either.
Desire is able to be chained by the will.

Example.
I like to eat only ketchup.
I will only eat ketchup all week and every meal, nothing else but ketchup.
Maybe even ketchup soup, ketchup hot, ketchup cold, but only ketchup.

Then someone comes and tells me that I will die because of the bad diet. My truth of certain death will change my desired diet. I will now choose to eat a well rounded meal because I chose to change my desire because of the truth.

By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledge, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.
This is a true gift of faith, let me explain by example.

My pastor prayed for a man's broken leg in a cast. Pastor told the man to go home and take the cast off. Pastor had the "Gift of Faith" that the "[b]Gift of Healing[/b]" had taken place.

An hour later, the "Gift of Faith" had left Pastor. He called the man to warn him not to take the cast off, fearing that he was mistaken.
However, the man had already taken the cast off and was running & jumping praising God.

You see, the "Gift of Faith" is to believe for certain something that can not be known from anything from outside except from a Devine revelation.
It is only temporary until it is not needed any more.
I also had the "Gift of Faith" come upon me when I knew for certain that God was going to speak audibly to my friend about her burden.
I had no reason to know this, no Scriptural backing, and God rarely speaks audibly.
However, right after I told her that God would speak to her in an audible voice, the "Gift of Faith" left immediately.
She then took my "[b]word of Knowledge[/b]" for truth and 15 minutes later, in the shower, she heard God audibly and started yelling, praising God.


Like I said, free will may, if at all, be implied only.

As to not being able to obey because you won't or don't desire to, please consider this example: If I asked you to forgive someone who tortured and murdered your spouse, a natural person would say "I can't" do that. The fact is they can but it would go against the grain of all their desires because they really want to kill the person who did that to their spouse. When a wicked man, who wants his will to rule
his life, is asked to make God is Lord, he will answer I can't. The real answer is he won't because that is the last thing he wants to do.

Men can be told that if they will die to self, and make Jesus Lord they will live. Men, without a change of the wicked heart, say I would rather die then. In fact, one man and woman, even with an intellect and will that far exceeds yours or mine were told that if they eat the wrong fruit they will die, they desired the fruit anyway and discounted the truth and died. How you or I with much more limited personal resources could do better is beyond me.


YOur position that the will controls the heart is contrary to Scripture. Look at how Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit came about. First comes desire then comes choice then comes act. Now, after the fall, it is even worse, our choices through the will are slaves to the root of sin in our hearts before conversion, after conversion our choices of the will are slaves to the root of righteousness that has been planted in our hearts. The nature of man is found in the heart and not the will. We, like all of creation, choose and act ( the will ) according to our nature.

Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical. It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.

Your rationales for your position all stem from the same foundation, that is that the Scripture in your view implies free will and that then supercedes God's explicit sovereignty in salvation and that to find otherwise renders God a "tyrant". The God I see in the Bible is sovereign in salvation and he is not a tyrant but a King. Psalm 110:3 "He made us willing in the day of His power".


A
andres

if we look in romans starting with chapter 1 verse 18 thru ch 3:23 we see a list of characteristics of mankind, who know God but refuse acknowlege HIm as God..
now if you look at verse 31 " without understanding, covenantbrakers, without natural affection, impalacable, unmerciful..

if you say faith is a mental assent of the mind then these people will never be saved because they have no understanding..
if you say, in are person we have some sort of natural faith to belive upon God , then these peole cant never be saved because the bible calls them covenant breakers which according to (stongs and vines) in the greek means faithless can not keep a covenant..
we know all the world is guilty before God, and justice demands our punishment(rom 3:19) but by the grace of God the church of God is saved by Christ and his work( obedience, faith love (rom ch 5)( eph 5:25-27) for we have no strength ( faith, understanding) to save ourselves(rom 5:6) for our love for sin is greater than our love for God. but, we have been placed in Christ by God(rom6:3-4), and know we have the power of the Spirit to do the things that God requires(phil 2:12-13) (Ezekiel 36:24-28).. Why? to declare , I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be the just and the justifier of him which believe upon Jesus(rom 3:25-26)..
Why did he choose certain people then? God before the foundation of the world had certain people on His mind to elect ( eph1:4-6), and for the most part God chooses weak things of the world (1 corth 1: 26-31, Ezekiel 16. 1-6).
But i will sing like david sang " what is man that you are mindful of him? and the son of man that you vistest him? (psalm 8)For who can understand the mind of God and fathom his doings..(Job 37:23,(1 cor 2:16) and I shall be thankful that i will never hear the dreadful words of our King " away with you i never KNEW you"( matt7:23)


love andy


B
boG

The uncircumcision is saved through Faith that is given by God and the elect do believe and hear through faith that is the light of the world, which makes the Law void in the believer, the Law is still perfect and it is fulfilled in us by the Christ Seed we are born again with.

Why do you say the Law is void and still perfect and fulfilled? Is it both at the same time?

Why the mention of "uncircumcision"? Is there some reasoning behind it?

Specifically pointing to Jesus Christ who is the light of our Faith and the only Faith that can see the kingdom, for unless you are born again you cannot see, know, feel or hear the things of the kingdom of God.

You are forgetting the rest of the Scripture. Once you are born-again you may "see" the kingdom. But unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot "enter" the kingdom.

[b]Where does being born of water and the Spirit [/b](which is listed after being born-again) [b]come in to your theology[/b]?

Why didn't you mention being born of water and the Spirit?

John 1
4. In Him was life, and [b]the life[/b] [u]was[/u] [b]the Light of men[/b].
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If you say "faith is the light of the world", then does that mean "faith" and "life" are the same thing, according to John 1?

Show me your Scripture reference that says "faith is the light of the world".

You seem to use the word "faith" very non-descriptly. Even bordering "implicity" ...

I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot [enter] the light, the light must come out of darkness.

So the measure of faith we have before salvation is different than the "Faith" that God gives us salvation by? One faith God gave us which is in darkness and then He gives a new Faith that has Light in Christ? This is correct according to what you have written?

"So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith."

Let me try and grasp this.

"dark faith" = with no light, not only is this faith prior to salvation but it is not able to receive salvation.

"dark faith" must be given "light" to "comprehend Grace" which this "dark faith" receives "through faith"

... What? You use the word "faith" without any solid consistency.

He truly is our light in the darkness and our faith is truly of Him, lest our faith still be in darkness and we stumble on the root out of dry ground and fall and end up as the seed fallen on the Side of the road and die.

Isaiah 53:2
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and [b]as a root out of a dry ground[/b]: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Are you saying the "root out of dry ground", being Jesus Christ, trips us over on to the "side of the road to die"?

That's a strange parable, where did you get it?

If you are alluding to the "Parable of the Sower", this is well.

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and [b]their eyes [u]THEY[/u] have closed[/b]; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It says here the people themselves closed their eyes, not God. Jesus says rather if they would open their eyes [b]at any time[/b] they would see Him and hear Him and understand with their hearts and be converted and Jesus would heal them.

Do you believe Jesus spoke incorrectly? Isn't God the one who gave them "faith with no light", so that they could not see?

What is the significance of closing their eyes if they couldn't see anyways?

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. [b]This is he which received seed by the way side[/b].

Is this the way side you were referring to? It doesn't say anything about roots out of dry ground. But it does mention lack of understanding and the wicked one.

What is this "seed which was sown"?
It is "the word of the kingdom".

[b]So here is another question:[/b]

Why doesn't this Word of God bring "light", according to you?

Is God giving out another "measure of faith" that is "in darkness"?

[b]OK, these are easy questions so far? Here are the real questions I want to ask you:[/b]

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This Scripture says not only "[b]clearly seen[/b]" but "[b]being understood[/b]", and even "[b]since the creation of the world[/b]".

This implies "light", or do you disagree?

[b]Where does your measure of "dark faith" agree with Scripture?[/b]

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say your "faith" is darkened. In fact it says rather,

Romans 1:28
And even as [b]they did not like to retain God in their knowledge[/b], God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

I read throughout the Bible that the people have light to "cleary see" God and this knowledge perturbs their evil ways.

Your analogy of light is also misunderstood. First off, true, darkness cannot enter light. Secondly, light has no need to "come out of the darkness" because light is never "in darkness".

Your false assumption is that the Word of God is little more than a candle placed on a hill. When in reality He is Omnipresent and fills the entire universe with His True and Radiant Light.

The true analogy is that darkness is trying to hide from the Light of God out on an open hill. The only darkness in this existence is in the hearts and minds of men. This is not the same as "faith" or the "measure of faith" unless you also want to also say faith is the "heart and mind". All faith is light because faith is the "clearly seen" and "being understood" knowledge of God that cannot be overcome, or put out, of a man.

Your concept of faith is irrational in that you use the word "faith" to "fill in the blank" of every spiritual concept you aren't understanding properly.


1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledgle, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.

You are also confused about what faith truly is and also about what the gifts of the Spirit are. If you had actually taken the time to read this Scripture in its entirety you would have also seen this:

1 Corinthians 12
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[...]

28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30. Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Now, what do you read here? Paul asks, "Do all have every gift?" So in succession if Paul had repeated the list of every gift, he would have also said "Have all the gift of faith?"

If you will look again Paul says, "[b]To another[/b] faith by the same Spirit."

He does [b]not[/b] say "to all" faith by the same Spirit.

Or, did you simply wash over that part? This is not a buffet of spiritual gifts where you get to have all of them. But as the Holy Spirit divides these gifts out to each as He wills. However, this doesn't mean that what you got you keep either. But each gift comes and goes as it is necessary for the ministry to profit withal.

These gifts are not the same as the "differences of administrations" and the "diversities of operations". Which I will not go in to detail here.

Logic explained giftings properly. But I don't suppose you will apologize for not reading his comments with open eyes?

If you still think Paul is saying "the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts" then let us finish the chapter.

1 Corinthians 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: [b]and yet[/b] shew I unto you [b]a more excellent way[/b].

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; [b]and though I have all faith[/b], so that I could remove mountains, [b]and have not charity, I am nothing[/b].

Ah, but what? All faith and "I am nothing" without charity (which is love).

With all of your explaining you said that Jesus is the light of the world and that Faith is the light of the world. And so, you have equated Jesus as the gift of Faith.

Isn't Jesus also Love? So Jesus is our Faith and Faith is Light and Love and Life?

Well, it would appear not to be true according to your calculations. For even with "All Faith", Paul says, "I am nothing" without Love.

You have misunderstood faith completely. Faith is not Christ. Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for: even "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Not Christ Himself, but rather Christ [b]in you[/b].

And, now, I will leave you with one final question for your critique.

If salvation is 100% God predestined. From start to middle to finish. All without man's concentual choice or free will, as you say.

Then why does Jesus say, Matthew 19:24, "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"?

Is anything too hard for the Lord? Is God a respector of persons? Is He?

Well, why does Jesus recognize a rating of difficulty for a rich man's salvation? If the rich man has no place in the orchestra of his salvation, as you say, why should there be a distinction for how difficult it is to get him saved?

How difficult for this rich man to be saved by God's Soveriegn Will, you ask?

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" by God's Sovereign Will.

Hm?

Matthew 19:21. Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

[[b]Edit:[/b] Is Jesus tempting, or taunting, this rich man because He knows He can't do them? Mark 10:21, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him."

And, again, verse 24, And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, "Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!"

Why would men who trust in riches make it hard for God to bring them into heaven?]

Matthew 19:25-26. [...] "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

So, which is it?

[[b]Edit:[/b] It is not a question of "can God" but why the "rating of difficulty"? As Scripture also says,
Luke 6:20. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Why the distinction between rich men and poor men if man has no influence over God's Sovereign Salvation?]

[[b]quick Edits:[/b] I know you all be sneaky. So I wanted to make one last note about the focus of these questions, so there are hopefully no stray responses from the heart of the matter.]

L
Logic

boG wrote:
"So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith."
Let me try and grasp this.

"dark faith" = with no light, not only is this faith prior to salvation but it is not able to receive salvation.

"dark faith" must be given "light" to "comprehend Grace" which this "dark faith" receives "through faith"

... What? You use the word "faith" without any solid consistency.

Do not try to figure out what Christinyou is saying.
He is in a "new Age" religion.
It's dificult to see at fist but once you read enough of his stuff, you will see it; As you read just then, this "dark faith"
and
"the christ 'birthed' in you"
and
faith being the light of the world instead of the Christian himself being the Light of the world.

Christinyou is very subtle in his new age philosigies, but that is the way some of them are, to suck you in with suductive words that sounds oh so very religious and someitimes beautifuly worded.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
As to not being able to obey because you won't or don't desire to, please consider this example: If I asked you to forgive someone who tortured and murdered your spouse, a natural person would say "I can't" do that. The fact is they can but it would go against the grain of all their desires because they really want to kill the person who did that to their spouse.
Okay, you agree that there is ability, quit calling it an inability just because of a refusal to. It doesn't matter if it goes against the grain of all their desires.
You whole premise is that one can choose but just don't want to, and you call that not having free will.

When a wicked man, who wants his will to rule his life, is asked to make God is Lord, he will answer I can't.
No, he only refuses, it is not an inability. Stop trying to make it so.
One is able to go against his own desires.

Men can be told that if they will die to self, and make Jesus Lord they will live. Men, without a change of the wicked heart, say I would rather die then. In fact, one man and woman, even with an intellect and will that far exceeds yours or mine were told that if they eat the wrong fruit they will die, they desired the fruit anyway and discounted the truth and died. How you or I with much more limited personal resources could do better is beyond me.
One is able to go against his own desires. I do not want to go to work tomorrow; however, I choose to do it.

When I got married, I had to leave my wife in the Philippines for a year & a half right after our honeymoon.
Leaving her went against every grain of all my desires. I could have chosen to stay and make a living there, but that would not have been right.

I still chose to do that which was 100% against the grain of all my desires.
This disproves your whole basis of no free will.
All mankind is able to do what is right even when they don't want to.

Your position that the will controls the heart is contrary to Scripture. Look at how Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit came about.

[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]for all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]
he lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world. [/color]
[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]
Eve followed the lusts of the flesh; She chose over that which she knew was right.

First comes desire then comes choice then comes act. Now, after the fall, it is even worse, our choices through the will are slaves to the root of sin in our hearts before conversion, after conversion our choices of the will are slaves to the root of righteousness that has been planted in our hearts.
[b]Romans 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of disobedience unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/color]

This says that everyone has a choice of who's slave you choose to be.
Man must choose that which is right.

The nature of man is found in the heart and not the will. We, like all of creation, choose and act (the will) according to our nature.
Man is responsible because of his will.
Since this is true, the will must be free.

Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical.
Have you been used by the Holy Spirit in the "Gifts of the Spirit" which is written in 1Corinth 12?
How is it nonsense?

It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.
Since you mishandled the texts that you cited, how do you think they are consistent?

Your rationales for your position all stem from the same foundation, which is that the Scripture in your view implies free will and that then supersedes God's explicit sovereignty in salvation
Your view implies no free will.
How is man responsible without free will?

Furthermore, you have a wrong definition of sovereignty, and with that wrong definition of sovereignty you have the wrong view of weather the will is free or not.

and that to find otherwise renders God a "tyrant".
Yes, your theology renders God a sadistic tyrant.

The God I see in the Bible is sovereign in salvation and he is not a tyrant but a King. Psalm 110:3 "He made us willing in the day of His power".
You must take the correct definition of sovereignty instead of your current one.
Furthermore, kings can be tyrants as your theology portrays God.

L
Logic

andres wrote:

if you say faith is a mental assent of the mind then these people will never be saved because they have no understanding.

It's not "[b]if[/b]" faith being a mental assent. That is like saying "if" the bible is the Word of God.
Furthermore, understanding comes from learning. One ay learn of God and come to an understanding.


if you say, in are person we have some sort of natural faith to believe upon God , then these people cant never be saved because the bible calls them covenant breakers which according to (stongs and vines) in the Greek means faithless can not keep a covenant.
That is where repentence comes in.

we know all the world is guilty before God, and justice demands our punishment(rom 3:19) but by the grace of God the church of God is saved by Christ and his work( obedience, faith love (rom ch 5)( eph 5:25-27) for we have no strength ( faith, understanding) to save ourselves(rom 5:6) for our love for sin is greater than our love for God.
The love for God comes when one learns of what He has done after they are convicted by the law from a preacher.

but, we have been placed in Christ by God(rom6:3-4), and know we have the power of the Spirit to do the things that God requires(phil 2:12-13) (Ezekiel 36:24-28).. Why? to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be the just and the justifier of him which believe upon Jesus(rom 3:25-26).

Why did he choose certain people then? God before the foundation of the world had certain people on His mind to elect

Again, by what criteria dose Hod use in choosing the "certain people"
How does HE choose without being arbitrary?

W
whyme

Logic, do you sincerely believe that your mind/will can control your nature? Why the need for a change in your nature described in Romans 3 and to be born again as Jesus described in John 3:1?

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, do you sincerely believe that your mind/will can control your nature?
[b]Rom 1:26[/b] [color=990000]For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: because even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.[/color]
It says here that they did things against nature.

What do you think was making them go against their nature?
Their mind/will chose to do what they knew was wrong.
That is why they were judged, not because they couldn't

Why the need for a change of nature described in Rom 3 and to be born again described in John 3?
Our nature is to grow and bear fruit, weather good or bad.

The only thing that matters is what kind of person you are.
The thing that determines what kind of person you are is what you choose to put your affections in & on.
Are your affections to do that which is right?

If your affections to do that which is right, then you will acknowledge the truth when presented.

W
whyme

I understand now why we disagree so divergently.

Once again, the discussion about sovereignty and its extent cannot converge in a debate if one party holds a belief in total depravity and the other does not. Where one starts on that issue will determine the outfall of just about every other issue in this vein. If nothing else, this thread has again confirmed this truth.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
I understand now why we disagree so divergently.

Once again, the discussion about sovereignty and its extent cannot converge in a debate if one party holds a belief in total depravity and the other does not. Where one starts on that issue will determine the outfall of just about every other issue in this vein. If nothing else, this thread has again confirmed this truth.

Explain "total depravity" to the best of what it means.

W
whyme


Logic wrote:
whyme wrote:
I understand now why we disagree so divergently.

Once again, the discussion about sovereignty and its extent cannot converge in a debate if one party holds a belief in total depravity and the other does not. Where one starts on that issue will determine the outfall of just about every other issue in this vein. If nothing else, this thread has again confirmed this truth.

Explain "total depravity" to the best of what it means.


Answer: On the issue of man's choices following man's sinful desires consider: In [sin] you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the
spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our
flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of
mankind (Ephesians 2:2-3).

Further, on the depraved heart, just a couple more:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able
to understand them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). For the mind that is set on the
flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot
please God (Romans 8:7-8). But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or
ears to hear (Deuteronomy 29:4).

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic wrote:
Explain "total depravity" to the best of what it means.
Answer: On the issue of man's choices following man's sinful desires consider:
In [sin] you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of
mankind (Ephesians 2:2-3).

Further, on the depraved heart, just a couple more:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8). But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear (Deuteronomy 29:4).

[b]Total Depravity[/b]
(also called total inability and total corruption)
[color=0000CC]It is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. It claims the entire nature, including its reason, is corrupt or sinful as a result of the Fall.
It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is utterly [size=medium][b]unable[/b][/size] to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God.[/color]

Fisrst of all, [b]if[/b] there is an inability, then they are free from the obligation to repent and to have faith.
With this inability, they are free from the command to do so and are not charged with rebelion or disobenience.
No one is disobediant for not doing that which they can not do.

Furthermore, if it was the result of what Adam did, it is not there own fault for being in that posision which frees them even more form the obligations.

Additionaly, the only reason that people are "by nature" not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires is because they do not know Christ to love Him & to know Him realy is to love Him(John 17:3) and loving Christ would help them to do that which is commanded.

Knowing & Loving Christ would turn their inclinations from rebelion & disobedience.

The way to know Christ is to acknowlege the truth of HIM(which all mankind is able to do) from the conviction of the law that comes by the preaching or witness of a christian.

The only reason that people are condemned is because they freely choose to deny Christ(Mat 10:33, Mark 8:38, Luke 12:9, John 3:18, 2Tim 2:12).
They must have the ability to choose Christ in order to freely deny Him.

You could actualy be charged with complicating the Gospel!

W
whyme

Logic, I and many other reformed believers plead and persuade men with the Gospel as an arminian. We explain what happened when someone is converted as a calvinist. The Gospel should be the same for all and the prayer in all our hearts is that God would save each person we meet and can proclaim Christ to. The only difference is that when I pray for God to save someone, I really am asking God to do it and in reality, the arminian must hope that the recipient of the Gospel message will save himself because God has already done His part. No need to pray in that case.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
Logic, I and many other reformed believers plead and persuade men with the Gospel as an arminian. We explain what happened when someone is converted as a calvinist. The Gospel should be the same for all and the prayer in all our hearts is that God would save each person we meet and can proclaim Christ to. The only difference is that when I pray for God to save someone, I really am asking God to do it
About praying for the non-elect, no one knows who is elect or not, so you may pray with tears & in His spirit, but no matter how much you do, God will not save that person, just because HE doesn't want to.
According to your theology/doctrine, God hates those people before they were born.

There is no amount of prayer, no amount of tears that will sway this god's heart because he has made his mind up & will not save just because he does not want to.
How do you feel about God hating your loved ones whom you pray for with tears, & in His spirit, and God will not because He hates those whom you love?
I'm talking about the non-elect whom you love and pray for and would give your own life for, but God didn't give His son for.

It would drive me insane if I knew God hated my loved ones who died in their sins and He would not save them just because He didn't want to and that He hated them.

It comforts me to know that it was there own fault, by their own stubborn refusal that they are in hell because they denied that which was free for them to escape.

However, to think that anyone was created for the sole purpose of being tormented in hell just because they were not lucky enough to be elected. And that they couldn't have faith or repent because of a great great great great great great great great x 1000 great relitive sinned(this means it ain't their fault) and because God just didn't want to give them the ability to have faith or repent.

You portray God to be a sadistic tyrant, how do you not see it?

and in reality the arminian must hope that the recipient of the Gospel message will save himself
Okay, knock it off, I've already explained that the relationship with Christ is what saves, I've already explained that the one who obeys the command does not save himself, does not merit anything, he has only done what he was supposed to do.(Luke 17:10)

because God has already done His part. No need to pray in that case.
We pray that God will arrange circumstances that will bring about a repentant heart and that HE will send out worker into the field to witness the truth to them.

Example:
The woman whom the teachers of the law and the Pharisees caught in adultery,

She came into a situation where she knew that she needed mercy, she learned that Jesus would forgive her.
She might not have given Jesus a second thought if it weren't for the circumstances which she came into.
There are factual stories from many that people come to Jesus because they were brought to a place were they would repentant. after they heard the truth.

C
Christinyou

The Nation of Israel is a classic proof of the doctrine of sovereign election. Deut. 7:6,7 is a typical passage that describes Israel's unique relationship with God and how that relationship came about.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt (Deut. 7:6-8).

Everyone agrees that Israel was "the chosen nation" of God. The question is not "Did God sovereignly choose the nation of Israel out from among all of the other nations to be his special property?" You would have to literally deny the Bible before you could reject that clear truth. The only question is, "Why did he choose that particular nation as his special people?" And the only two answers you can give is either, (1) because God foresaw they were "willing" to be chosen, or (2) because God sovereignly chose them simply because he wanted to choose them. What does the above Scripture say? Jacob's children were chosen because of the sovereign oath that God made to their father Abraham long before they were born. This is the or 2. answer. That choice had absolutely nothing to do with Israel's willingness. It is so with us who believe. We are saved by an oath the Father made to his Son long before we were born and has nothing to do with our willingness.

Ten short verses that agree with this foundation.

Ephesians 1:2-10 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Then to add to this mystery and the revealing of it to those in Christ, He also made the statement that, "Christ in you is the Hope of Glory", in whom God used Paul to show us the fulfillment of this mystery, which "fulfils the word of God".

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

So election does not depend on man but on God who is sovereign and will make no mistakes in His Choosing. So it is His working and not ours. This in no way makes God a tyrant, in not choosing, but makes His a loving, choosing, offering His own Son so He could choose and elect those that are in His Son, to whom He promised His inheritance in the Saints, that is His Church, His Body, which is truly the Body of Christ.

Election is not just a choice but a keeping of His promises and fulfilling that Promise in Christ Jesus on the Cross in whom we have our only life and movement in Him and have our only reason for being.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

V. Election is Clearly Taught in the New Testament Scriptures. By John Reisingerl

Our Lord Jesus taught the doctrine of election.

We will confine our references to the Gospel of John since that book is known as the "whosoever" gospel. Some verses from John are often used to refute election. Actually, no book in the whole Scripture is more clear on both absolute predestination and sovereign election.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:14-16).
These words cannot be understood without accepting the truth of election. Our Lord here speaks of certain people who belonged to him even though at that very moment they were lost "Other sheep I have." Notice the following things clearly taught in this text: (1) Christ calls some people "his sheep" long before he saved them. They belong to him at that very moment even though they are lost. (2) he declares that he "must, and surely will, find and bring them safely into the one true fold." Not a single sheep will be left not found. (3) Our Lord is positive that every one of those sheep "will hear his voice" and come to him. That is sovereign grace choosing and bringing particular individuals to faith in Christ.

My dear friend, that is absolute sovereign election pure and simple. Look at some other texts in John's gospel:

John 17:2: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:6: I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9: I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:11: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:12: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept them . . .

John 17:24: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovest me before the foundation of the world.

Six times in our Lord's High Priestly prayer he refers to a group of people who have been "given to him" by the Father. Christ specifically says in verse nine that he does not pray for the world, but for the elect who have been chosen out of the world and given to him as his sheep. Can anyone believe that Christ would die for an individual and then not pray for that individual?

Look at one more passage in John. This is a key verse. It is probably the most misquoted, next to Romans 8:28, of any verse in the Bible. Many evangelists use this verse in every service when they give an altar call. The problem is that they only quote half of the verse. They begin in the middle and ignore the first part. Here is the entire verse:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).
You will immediately notice the verse contains two distinct and separate statements. Both statements contain a specific Bible truth. The statements are related to each other as cause and effect. As I mentioned, evangelists only quote the second half. They say, with arms outstretched while inviting people to come to the front of the church, Jesus said, him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Unfortunately they give the impression that Coming to Christ" and coming to the front is one and the same thing. It is true that Jesus said Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," but he said those words as a conclusion to the first statement. Why can we be certain that everyone who comes to Christ will be accepted? Because everyone who has been given to him by the Father will surely come. The Coming ones" and the "Given ones" are one and the same people. An Arminian will not freely preach the first part, about election, and a Hyper-Calvinist will not preach the second part, the free offer of the gospel. We must preach them both and, I might add, both with the same enthusiasm and in the same order.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me . . ." is the truth of sovereign election. It is assuring us that there will be no empty houses in heaven catching cobwebs because someone was not willing to "claim by faith what Christ purchased for them." No, no, my friend, every chosen one will be there. The Shepherd will seek, find, and save each one of them. After all, his reputation as a Shepherd is at stake as well as the Father's purpose and glory.

The second part of the verse, A. . . and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," is the message to a world of lost sinners. It matters not who you are, what you are, or what you have done come to Christ and you will be received. If you do not feel ready, come anyway, and you will be received. You say you have not felt your sin enough. Where, I ask, does the text say anything about feeling your sin enough? It says "come" and assures all who come, regardless, that they will be received.

People often ask, "Pastor, how can you reconcile election and the free offer of the gospel? How do you get those two things together?" I tell them that you never have to reconcile friends, you only reconcile enemies, and the free offer of the gospel is not an enemy of sovereign election. They are friends. As to getting them together, I insist that the Holy Spirit himself has put those two things together in John 6:37. The real question is, "How dare you try to separate them!" How dare you seek to put asunder what God has joined together? End:


All others are under the Law and must make their own choice to keep His Law. All those that are left, are the same as the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, and must come to Him in their own strength and keeping of the Law, then repentance and be baptized in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, They will be saved. Even to those that believe on His name.

Law or Grace, I choose Grace, for I cannot keep the Law in my own strength, or even believe without the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

In Christ: Phillip


I
intrcssr83

by Logic on 2008/6/6 7:34:23

About praying for the non-elect, no one knows who is elect or not, so you may pray with tears & in His spirit, but no matter how much you do, God will not save that person, just because HE doesn't want to.
According to your theology/doctrine, God hates those people before they were born.

There is no amount of prayer, no amount of tears that will sway this god's heart because he has made his mind up & will not save just because he does not want to.
How do you feel about God hating your loved ones whom you pray for with tears, & in His spirit, and God will not because He hates those whom you love?
I'm talking about the non-elect whom you love and pray for and would give your own life for, but God didn't give His son for.

It would drive me insane if I knew God hated my loved ones who died in their sins and He would not save them just because He didn't want to and that He hated them.

It comforts me to know that it was there own fault, by their own stubborn refusal that they are in hell because they denied that which was free for them to escape.

However, to think that anyone was created for the sole purpose of being tormented in hell just because they were not lucky enough to be elected. And that they couldn't have faith or repent because of a great great great great great great great great x 1000 great relitive sinned(this means it ain't their fault) and because God just didn't want to give them the ability to have faith or repent.

You portray God to be a sadistic tyrant, how do you not see it?

Is this not how the Apostle Paul prsents his case for election in Romans 9?

[i]1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— [u]2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, [/u]4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.[/i]

How much did Paul believe in Unconditional Election? Obviously enough to devote a whole chapter of Romans, yet even so, he begins his argument by saying that deep down, he would give anything - even going as far to forsake his own salvation so that another could take his place in Christ - to see all of natural Israel come into the New Covenant so that it may receive the promises intended under the Old. The concept of election then, did not hinder Paul's apostolic ministry, rather, it obviously aided it.

But here's an article by [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/resourcelibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/]John Piper[/url] that should clear some thing up in light of scripture:
___________________________________________

Are There Two Wills in God?
Divine Election and God's Desire for All to Be

By John Piper January 1, 1995

My aim here is to show from Scripture that the simultaneous existence of God's will for "all persons to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4) and his will to elect unconditionally those who will actually be saved is not a sign of divine schizophrenia or exegetical confusion. A corresponding aim is to show that unconditional election therefore does not contradict biblical expressions of God's compassion for all people, and does not nullify sincere offers of salvation to everyone who is lost among all the peoples of the world.

1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Ezekiel 18:23 might be called the Arminian pillar texts concerning the universal saving will of God. In 1 Timothy 2:1-4 Paul says that the reason we should pray for kings and all in high positions is that this may bring about a quiet and peaceable life which "is good, and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills (thelei) all persons to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." In 2 Peter 3:8-9 the apostle says that the delay of the second coming of Christ is owing to the fact that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. "The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not willing (boulomenos) that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." And in Ezekiel 18:23 and 32 the Lord speaks about his heart for the perishing: "Do I indeed delight in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather in his turning from his way that he might live? . . . I do not delight ()ehephoz) in the death of the one who dies, says the Lord; so turn and live" (cf. 33:11).

It is possible that careful exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:4 would lead us to believe that "God's willing all persons to be saved" does not refer to every individual person in the world, but rather to all sorts of persons, since the "all persons" in verse 1 may well mean groups like "kings and all in high positions" (v. 2). It is also possible that the "you" in 2 Peter 3:9 ("the Lord is longsuffering toward you, not wishing any to perish") refers not to every person in the world but to "you" professing Christians among whom, as Adolf Schlatter says, "are people who only through repentance can attain to the grace of God and to the promised inheritance."

Nevertheless the case for this limitation on God's universal saving will has never been convincing to Arminians and likely will not become convincing, especially since Ezekiel 18:23, 32 and 33:11 are even less tolerant of restriction. Therefore as a hearty believer in unconditional, individual election I rejoice to affirm that God does not delight in the perishing of the impenitent, and that he has compassion on all people. My aim is to show that this is not double talk.

The assignment in this chapter is not to defend the doctrine that God chooses unconditionally whom he will save. I have tried to do that elsewhere and others do it in this book. Nevertheless I will try to make a credible case that while the Arminian pillar texts may indeed be pillars for universal love, nevertheless they are not weapons against unconditional election. If I succeed then there will be an indirect confirmation for the thesis of this book. In fact I think Arminians have erred in trying to take pillars of universal love and make them into weapons against electing grace.

Affirming the will of God to save all, while also affirming the unconditional election of some, implies that there are at least "two wills" in God, or two ways of willing. It implies that God decrees one state of affairs while also willing and teaching that a different state of affairs should come to pass. This distinction in the way God wills has been expressed in various ways throughout the centuries. It is not a new contrivance. For example, theologians have spoken of sovereign will and moral will, efficient will and permissive will, secret will and revealed will, will of decree and will of command, decretive will and preceptive will, voluntas signi (will of sign) and voluntas beneplaciti (will of good pleasure), etc.

Clark Pinnock refers disapprovingly to "the exceedingly paradoxical notion of two divine wills regarding salvation." In Pinnock's more recent volume (A Case for Arminianism) Randall Basinger argues that, "if God has decreed all events, then it must be that things cannot and should not be any different from what they are." In other words he rejects the notion that God could decree that a thing be one way and yet teach that we should act to make it another way. He says that it is too hard "to coherently conceive of a God in which this distinction really exists"

In the same volume Fritz Guy argues that the revelation of God in Christ has brought about a "paradigm shift" in the way we should think about the love of God—namely as "more fundamental than, and prior to, justice and power." This shift, he says, makes it possible to think about the "will of God" as "delighting more than deciding." God's will is not his sovereign purpose which he infallibly establishes, but rather "the desire of the lover for the beloved." The will of God is his general intention and longing, not his effective purpose. Dr. Guy goes so far as to say, "Apart from a predestinarian presupposition, it becomes apparent that God's 'will' is always (sic) to be understood in terms of intention and desire [as opposed to efficacious, sovereign purpose]."

These criticisms are not new. Jonathan Edwards wrote 250 years ago, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say he may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of his contradicted another."

But in spite of these criticisms the distinction stands, not because of a logical or theological deduction, but because it is inescapable in the Scriptures. The most careful exegete writing in Pinnock's Case for Arminianism concedes the existence of two wills in God. I. Howard Marshall applies his exegetical gift to the Pastoral Epistles. Concerning 1 Timothy 2:4 he says,

To avoid all misconceptions it should be made clear at the outset that the fact that God wishes or wills that all people should be saved does not necessarily imply that all will respond to the gospel and be saved. We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and both of these things can be spoken of as God's will. The question at issue is not whether all will be saved but whether God has made provision in Christ for the salvation of all, provided that they believe, and without limiting the potential scope of the death of Christ merely to those whom God knows will believe.

In this chapter I would now like to undergird Marshall's point that "we must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and [that] both of these things can be spoken of as God's will." Perhaps the most effective way to do this is to begin by drawing attention to the way Scripture portrays God willing something in one sense which he disapproves in another sense. Then, after seeing some of the biblical evidence, we can step back and ponder how to understand this in relation to God's saving purposes.

Illustrations of Two Wills in God


The Death of Christ

The most compelling example of God's willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son. The betrayal of Jesus by Judas was a morally evil act inspired immediately by Satan (Luke 22:3). Yet in Acts 2:23 Luke says, "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan (boule) and foreknowledge of God." The betrayal was sin, and it involved the instrumentality of Satan; but it was part of God's ordained plan. That is, there is a sense in which God willed the delivering up of his Son, even though the act was sin.

Moreover Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11) and Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24) and the Jews' "Crucify! Crucify him!" (Luke 23:21) and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints:

Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place.

Herod, Pilate, the soldiers and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God.

The appalling death of Christ was the will and work of God the Father. Isaiah wrote, "We esteemed him stricken, smitten by God . . . It was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief" (Isaiah 53:4,10). God's will was very much engaged in the events that brought his Son to death on the cross. God considered it "fitting to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). Yet, as Jonathan Edwards points out, Christ's suffering "could not come to pass but by sin. For contempt and disgrace was one thing he was to suffer."

It goes almost without saying that God wills obedience to his moral law, and that he wills this in a way that can be rejected by many. This is evident from numerous texts: "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will (thelema) of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:50). "The one who does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:17). The "will of God" in these texts is the revealed, moral instruction of the Old and New Testaments, which proscribes sin.

Therefore we know it was not the "will of God" that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense. I. Howard Marshall's statement is confirmed by the death of Jesus: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."


The War Against the Lamb

There are two reasons that we turn next to Revelation 17:16-17. One is that the war against the Son of God, which reached its sinful climax at the cross comes to final consummation in a way that confirms what we have seen about the will of God. The other reason is that this text reveals John's understanding of God's active involvement in fulfilling prophecies whose fulfillment involves sinning. John sees a vision of some final events of history:

And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled (Revelation 17:16-17).

Without going into all the details of this passage, the relevant matter is clear. The beast "comes out of the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). He is the personification of evil and rebellion against God. The ten horns are ten kings (v. 12) and they "wage war against the Lamb" (v. 14).

Waging war against the Lamb is sin and sin is contrary to the will of God. Nevertheless the angel says (literally), "God gave into their [the ten kings'] hearts to do his will, and to perform one will, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (v. 17). Therefore God willed (in one sense) to influence the hearts of the ten kings so that they would do what is against his will (in another sense).

Moreover God did this in fulfillment of prophetic words. The ten kings will collaborate with the beast "until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (v. 17). This implies something crucial about John's understanding of the fulfillment of "the prophesies leading up to the overthrow of Antichrist." It implies that (at least in John's view) God's prophecies are not mere predictions which God knows will happen, but rather are divine intentions which he makes sure will happen. We know this because verse 17 says that God is acting to see to it that the ten kings make league with the beast "until the words of God shall be fulfilled." John is exulting not in the marvelous foreknowledge of God to predict a bad event. Rather he is exulting in the marvelous sovereignty of God to make sure that the bad event comes about. Fulfilled prophecy, in John's mind, is not only prediction, but also promised performance.

This is important because John tells us in his Gospel that there are Old Testament prophecies of events surrounding the death of Christ that involve sin. This means that God intends to bring about events that involve things he forbids. These events include Judas' betrayal of Jesus (John 13:18; Psalm 41:9), the hatred Jesus received from his enemies (John 15:25; Psalm 69:4; 35:19), the casting of lots for Jesus' clothing (John 19:24; Psalm 22:18), and the piercing of Jesus' side (John 19:36-37; Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). John expresses his theology of God's sovereignty with the words, "These things happened in order that the scripture be fulfilled." In other words the events were not a coincidence that God merely foresaw, but a plan which God purposed to bring about. Thus again we find the words of I. Howard Marshall confirmed: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."


The Hardening Work of God

Another evidence to demonstrate God's willing a state of affairs in one sense that he disapproves in another sense is the testimony of Scripture that God wills to harden some men's hearts so that they become obstinate in sinful behavior which God disapproves.

The most well known example is the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. In Exodus 8:1 the Lord says to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, "Let my people go, that they may serve me."'" In other words God's command, that is, his will, is that Pharaoh let the Israelites go. Nevertheless from the start he also willed that Pharaoh not let the Israelites go. In Exodus 4:21 God says to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hand; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." At one point Pharaoh himself acknowledges that his unwillingness to let the people go is sin: "Now therefore forgive, I pray, my sin" (Exodus 10:17). Thus what we see is that God commands that Pharaoh do a thing which God himself wills not to allow. The good thing that God commands he prevents. And the thing he brings about involves sin.

Some have tried to avoid this implication by pointing out that during the first five plagues the text does not say explicitly that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but that it "was hardened" (Exodus 7:22; 8:19; 9:7) or that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Exodus 8:15,32), and that only in the sixth plague does it say explicitly "the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart" (9:12; 10:20,27; 11:10; 14:4). For example R.T. Forster and V.P. Marston say that only from the sixth plague on God gave Pharaoh "supernatural strength to continue with his evil path of rebellion"

But this observation does not succeed in avoiding the evidence of two wills in God. Even if Forster and Marston were right that God was not willing for Pharaoh's heart to be hardened during the first five plagues, they concede that for the last five plagues God does will this, at least in the sense of strengthening Pharaoh to continue in the path of rebellion. Thus there is a sense in which God does will that Pharaoh go on refusing to let the people go, and there is a sense in which he does will that Pharaoh release the people. For he commands, "Let my people go." This illustrates why theologians talk about the "will of command" ("Let my people go!") and the "will of decree" ("God hardened Pharaoh's heart").

The Exodus is not a unique instance of God's acting in this way. When the people of Israel reached the land of Sihon king of Heshbon, Moses sent messengers "with words of peace saying, Let me pass through your land; I will travel only on the highway" (Deuteronomy 2:26-27). Even though this request should have lead Sihon to treat the people of God with respect, as God willed for his people to be blessed rather than attacked, nevertheless "Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as at this day" (Deuteronomy 2:30). In other words it was God's will (in one sense) that Sihon act in a way that was contrary to God's will (in another sense) that Israel be blessed and not cursed.

Similarly the conquest of the cities of Canaan is owing to God's willing that the kings of the land resist Joshua rather than make peace with him. "Joshua waged war a long time with all these kings. There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses" (Joshua 11:19-20). In view of this it is difficult to imagine what Fritz Guy means when he says that the "will of God" is always to be thought of in terms of loving desire and intention rather than in terms of God's effective purpose of judgment. What seems more plain is that when the time has come for judgment God wills that the guilty do things that are against his revealed will, like cursing Israel rather than blessing her.

The hardening work of God was not limited to non-Israelites. In fact it plays a central role in the life of Israel in this period of history. In Romans 11:7-9 Paul speaks of Israel's failure to obtain the righteousness and salvation it desired: "Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day." Even though it is the command of God that his people see and hear and respond in faith (Isaiah 42:18), nevertheless God also has his reasons for sending a spirit of stupor at times so that some will not obey his command.

Jesus expressed this same truth when he explained that one of the purposes of speaking in parables to the Jews of his day was to bring about this judicial blinding or stupor. In Mark 4:11-12 he said to his disciples, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." Here again God wills that a condition prevail which he regards as blameworthy. His will is that they turn and be forgiven (Mark 1:15), but he acts in a way to restrict the fulfillment of that will.

Paul pictures this divine hardening as part of an overarching plan that will involve salvation for Jew and Gentile. In Romans 11:25-26 he says to his Gentile readers, "Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved." The fact that the hardening has an appointed end—"until the full number of the Gentiles comes in"—shows that it is part of God's plan rather than a merely contingent event outside God's purpose. Nevertheless Paul expresses not only his but also God's heart when he says in Romans 10:1, "My heart's desire and prayer to God for them [Israel] is their salvation." God holds out his hands to a rebellious people (Romans 10:21), but ordains a hardening that consigns them for a time to disobedience.

This is the point of Romans 11:31-32. Paul speaks to his Gentile readers again about the disobedience of Israel in rejecting their Messiah: "So they [Israel] have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they also may receive mercy." When Paul says that Israel was disobedient "in order that" Gentiles might get the benefits of the gospel, whose purpose does he have in mind? It can only be God's. For Israel did not conceive of their own disobedience as a way of blessing the Gentiles or winning mercy for themselves in such a round about fashion. The point of Romans 11:31 therefore is that God's hardening of Israel is not an end in itself, but is part of a saving purpose that will embrace all the nations. But in the short run we have to say that he wills a condition (hardness of heart) which he commands people to strive against ("Do not harden your heart" (Hebrews 3:8, 15; 4:7).


God's Right to Restrain Evil and His Will Not To

Another line of Biblical evidence that God sometimes wills to bring about what he disapproves is his choosing to use or not to use his right to restrain evil in the human heart.

Proverbs 21:1 says, "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hands of the Lord; he turns it wherever he wishes." An illustration of this divine right over the king's heart is given in Genesis 20. Abraham is sojourning in Gerar and says to king Abimelech that Sarah is his sister. So Abimelech takes her as part of his harem. But God is displeased and warns him in a dream that she is married to Abraham. Abimelech protests to God that he had taken her in his integrity. And God says (in verse 6), "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against me; therefore I did not let you touch her."

What is apparent here is that God has the right and the power to restrain the sins of secular rulers. When he does, it is his will to do it. And when he does not, it is his will not to. Which is to say that sometimes God wills that their sins be restrained and sometimes he wills that they increase more than if he restrained them.

It is not an unjust infringement on human agency that the Creator has the right and power to restrain the evil actions of his creatures. Psalm 33:10-11 says, "The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." Sometimes God frustrates the will of rulers by making their plans fail. Sometimes he does so by influencing their hearts the way he did Abimelech, without them even knowing it.

But there are times when God does not use this right because he intends for human evil to run its course. For example, God meant to put the sons of Eli to death. Therefore he willed that they not listen to their father's counsel: "Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. And he said to them, `Why do you do such things, the evil things that I hear from all these people? No, my sons; for the report is not good which I hear the Lord's people circulating. If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?' But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death" (1 Samuel 2:22-25).

Why would the sons of Eli not give heed to their father's good counsel? The answer of the text is "because the Lord desired to put them to death." This only makes sense if the Lord had the right and the power to restrain their disobedience—a right and power which he willed not to use. Thus we must say that in one sense God willed that the sons of Eli go on doing what he commanded them not to do: dishonoring their father and committing sexual immorality.

Moreover the word for "desired" in the clause, "the Lord desired to put them to death," is the same Hebrew word (haphez) used in Ezekiel 18:23,32 and 33:11 where God asserts that he does not desire the death of the wicked. God desired to put the sons of Eli to death, but he does not desire the death of the wicked. This is a strong warning to us not to take one assertion, like Ezekiel 18:23 and assume we know the precise meaning without letting other scripture like 1 Samuel 2:25 have a say. The upshot of putting the two together is that in one sense God may desire the death of the wicked and in another sense he may not.

Another illustration of God's choosing not to use his right to restrain evil is found in Romans 1:24-28. Three times Paul says that God hands people over (paredoken) to sink further into corruption. Verse 24: "God handed them over to the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves." Verse 26: "God handed them over to dishonorable passions." Verse 28: "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to a base mind and to improper conduct." God has the right and the power to restrain this evil the way he did for Abimelech. But he did not will to do that. Rather his will in this case was to punish, and part of God's punishment on evil is sometimes willing that evil increase. But this means that God chooses for behavior to come about which he commands not to happen. The fact that God's willing is punitive does not change that. And the fact that it is justifiably punitive is one of the points of this chapter. There are other examples we could give, but we pass on to a different line of evidence.
Does God Delight in the Punishment of the Wicked?

We just saw that God "desired" to put the sons of Eli to death, and that the word for desire is the same one used in Ezekiel 18:23 when God says he does not "delight" in the death of the wicked. Another illustration of this complex desiring is found in Deuteronomy 28:63. Moses is warning of coming judgment on unrepentant Israel. What he says is strikingly different (not contradictory, I will argue) from Ezekiel 18:23. "And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you."

Here an even stronger word for joy is used (yasis) when it says that God will "take delight over you to cause you to perish and to destroy you." We are faced with the inescapable biblical fact that in some sense God does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18), and in some sense he does (Deuteronomy 28:63; 2 Samuel 2:25).
How Extensive Is the Sovereign Will of God?

Behind this complex relationship of two wills in God is the foundational biblical premise that God is indeed sovereign in a way that makes him ruler of all actions. R.T. Forster and V.P. Marston try to overcome the tension between God's will of decree and God's will of command by asserting that there is no such thing as God's sovereign will of decree: "Nothing in Scripture suggests that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable." This is a remarkable claim. Without claiming to be exhaustive it will be fair to touch on some scriptures briefly that do indeed "suggest that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable."

There are passages that ascribe to God the final control over all calamities and disasters wrought by nature or by man. Amos 3:6, "Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it? Isaiah 45:7, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." Lamentations 3:37-38, "Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?" Noteworthy in these texts is that the calamities in view involve human hostilities and cruelties that God would disapprove of even as he wills that they be.

The apostle Peter wrote concerning God's involvement in the sufferings of his people at the hands of their antagonists. In his first letter he spoke of the "will of God" in two senses. It was something to be pursued and lived up to on the one hand. "Such is the will of God, that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:15). "Live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men but for the will of God" (4:2). On the other hand the will of God was not his moral instruction, but the state of affairs that he sovereignly brought about. "For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong" (3:17). "Let those who suffer according to God's will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator" (4:19). And in this context, the suffering which Peter has in mind is the suffering which comes from hostile people and therefore cannot come without sin.

In fact the New Testament saints seemed to live in the calm light of an overarching sovereignty of God concerning all the details of their lives and ministry. Paul expressed himself like this with regard to his travel plans. On taking leave of the saints in Ephesus he said, "I will return to you if God wills," (Acts 18:21). To the Corinthians he wrote, "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills" (1 Corinthians 4:19). And again, "I do not want to see you now just in passing; I hope to spend some time with you, if the Lord permits" (1 Corinthians 16:7).

The writer to the Hebrews says that his intention is to leave the elementary things behind and press on to maturity. But then he pauses and adds, "And this we will do if God permits" (6:3). This is remarkable since it is hard to imagine one even thinking that God might not permit such a thing unless one had a remarkably high view of the sovereign prerogatives of God.

James warns against the pride of presumption in speaking of the simplest plans in life without a due submission to the overarching sovereignty of God in whether the day's agenda might be interrupted by God's decision to take the life he gave. Instead of saying, "Tomorrow we will do such and such . . . you ought to say, `If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall do this or that'" (James 4:15). Thus the saints in Caesarea, when they could not dissuade Paul from taking the risk to go to Jerusalem " ceased and said, 'The will of the Lord be done'" (Acts 21:14). God would decide whether Paul would be killed or not, just as James said.

This sense of living in the hands of God, right down to the details of life was not new for the early Christians. They knew it already from the whole history of Israel, but especially from their wisdom literature. "The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:1). "A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps" (Proverbs 16:9). "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established" (Proverbs 19:21). "The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly from the LORD" (Proverbs 16:33). "I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23). Jesus had no quarrel with this sense of living in the hand of God. If anything, he intensified the idea with words like Matthew 10:29, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."

This confidence that the details of life were in the control of God every day was rooted in numerous prophetic expressions of God's unstoppable, unthwartable sovereign purpose. "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'" (Isaiah 46:9-10; cf. 43:13). "all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What doest thou?'" (Daniel 4:35). "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3).

One of the most precious implications of this confidence in God's inviolable sovereign will is that it provides the foundation of the "new covenant" hope for the holiness without which we will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). In the old covenant the law was written on stone and brought death when it met with the resistance of unrenewed hearts. But the new covenant promise is that God will not let his purposes for a holy people shipwreck on the weakness of human will. Instead he promises to do what needs to be done to make us what we ought to be. "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:6). "I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27). "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me" (Jeremiah 32:40). "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

In view of all these texts I am unable to grasp what Forster and Marston might mean by saying, "Nothing in Scripture suggests that there is some kind of will or plan of God which is inviolable" (see note 26). Nor can I understand how Fritz Guy can say that the "will of God" is always a desiring and intending but not a sovereign, effective willing (see note 12). Rather the Scriptures lead us again and again to affirm that God's will is sometimes spoken of as an expression of his moral standards for human behavior and sometimes as an expression of his sovereign control even over acts which are contrary to that standard.

This means that the distinction between terms like "will of decree" and "will of command" or "sovereign will" and "moral will" is not an artificial distinction demanded by Calvinistic theology. The terms are an effort to describe the whole of biblical revelation. They are an effort to say Yes to all of the Bible and not silence any of it. They are a way to say Yes to the universal, saving will of 1 Timothy 2:4 and Yes to the individual unconditional election of Romans 9:6-23.


Does It Make Sense?

I turn now to the task of reflecting on how these two wills of God fit together and make sense—as far this finite and fallible creature can rise to that challenge.

The first thing to affirm in view of all these texts is that God does not sin. "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts, the whole earth is full of his glory." (Isaiah 6:3). "God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). In ordering all things, including sinful acts, God is not sinning. For as Jonathan Edwards says, "It implies no contradiction to suppose that an act may be an evil act, and yet that it is a good thing that such an act should come to pass. . . As for instance, it might be an evil thing to crucify Christ, but yet it was a good thing that the crucifying of Christ came to pass." In other words the Scriptures lead us to the insight that God can will that a sinful act come to pass without willing it as an act of sin in himself.

Edwards points out that Arminians, it seems, must come to a similar conclusion.

All must own that God sometimes wills not to hinder the breach of his own commands, because he does not in fact hinder it . . . But you will say, God wills to permit sin, as he wills the creature should be left to his freedom; and if he should hinder it, he would offer violence to the nature of his own creature. I answer, this comes nevertheless to the very same thing that I say. You say, God does not will sin absolutely; but rather than alter the law of nature and the nature of free agents, he wills it. He wills what is contrary to excellency in some particulars, for the sake of a more general excellency and order. So that the scheme of the Arminians does not help the matter.

This seems right to me, and it can be illustrated again by reflecting directly on 1 Timothy 2:4 where Paul says that God wills all persons to be saved. What are we to say of the fact that God wills something that in fact does not happen. There are two possibilities as far as I can see. One is that there is a power in the universe greater than God's which is frustrating him by overruling what he wills. Neither Calvinist nor Arminian affirms this.

The other possibility is that God wills not to save all, even though he is willing to save all, because there is something else that he wills more, which would be lost if he exerted his sovereign power to save all. This is the solution that I as a Calvinist affirm along with Arminians. In other words both Calvinists and Arminians affirm two wills in God when they ponder deeply over 1 Timothy 2:4. Both can say that God wills for all to be saved. But then when queried why all are not saved both Calvinist and Arminian answer that God is committed to something even more valuable than saving all.

The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is. What does God will more than saving all? The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).

This is utterly crucial to see, for what it implies is that 1 Timothy 2:4 does not settle the momentous issue of God's higher commitment which restrains him from saving all. There is no mention here of free will. Nor is there mention of sovereign, prevenient, efficacious grace. If all we had was this text we could only guess what restrains God from saving all. When free will is found in this verse it is a philosophical, metaphysical assumption not an exegetical conclusion. The assumption is that if God wills in one sense for all to be saved, then he cannot in another sense will that only some be saved. That assumption is not in the text, nor is it demanded by logic, nor is it taught in the rest of Scripture. Therefore 1 Timothy 2:4 does not settle the issue; it creates it. Both Arminians and Calvinists must look elsewhere to answer whether the gift of human self-determination or the glory of divine sovereignty is the reality that restrains God's will to save all people.

The Calvinists which I admire do not claim to have simple, easy solutions to complex Biblical tensions. When their writing is difficult this is because the Scriptures are difficult (as the apostle Peter admitted that, in part, they are, 2 Peter 3:16). These Calvinists are struggling to be faithful to diverse (but not contradictory) scriptures. Both Calvinists and Arminians feel at times that the ridicule directed against their complex expositions are in fact a ridicule against the complexity of the scriptures.

I find the effort of Stephen Charnock (1628-1680), a chaplain to Henry Cromwell and non-conformist pastor in London, to be balanced and helpful in holding the diverse scriptures on God's will together.

God doth not will [sin] directly, and by an efficacious will. He doth not directly will it, because he hath prohibited it by his law, which is a discovery of his will; so that if he should directly will sin, and directly prohibit it, he would will good and evil in the same manner, and there would be contradictions in God's will: to will sin absolutely, is to work it (Psalm 115:3): "God hath done whatsoever he pleased." God cannot absolutely will it, because he cannot work it. God wills good by a positive decree, because he hath decreed to effect it. He wills evil by a private decree, because he hath decreed not to give that grace which would certainly prevent it. God doth not will sin simply, for that were to approve it, but he wills it, in order to that good his wisdom will bring forth from it. He wills not sin for itself, but for the event.

Similarly Jonathan Edwards, writing about 80 years later comes to similar conclusions with somewhat different terminology.

When a distinction is made between God's revealed will and his secret will, or his will of command and decree, "will" is certainly in that distinction taken in two senses. His will of decree, is not his will in the same sense as his will of command is. Therefore, it is no difficulty at all to suppose, that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue, or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended, that virtue, or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature.

His will of decree is, his inclination to a thing, not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with respect to the universality of things, that have been, are or shall be. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things. Though he hates sin in itself, yet he may will to permit it, for the greater promotion of holiness in this universality, including all things, and at all times. So, though he has no inclination to a creature's misery, considered absolutely, yet he may will it, for the greater promotion of happiness in this universality.

Putting it in my own words, Edwards said that the infinite complexity of the divine mind is such that God has the capacity to look at the world through two lenses. He can look through a narrow lens or through a wide-angle lens. When God looks at a painful or wicked event through his narrow lens, he sees the tragedy or the sin for what it is in itself and he is angered and grieved. "I do not delight in the death of anyone, says the Lord God" (Ezekiel 18:32). But when God looks at a painful or wicked event through his wide-angle lens, he sees the tragedy or the sin in relation to everything leading up to it and everything flowing out from it. He sees it in all the connections and effects that form a pattern or mosaic stretching into eternity. This mosaic, with all its (good and evil) parts he does delight in (Psalm 115:3).

God's emotional life is infinitely complex beyond our ability to fully comprehend. For example, who can comprehend that the Lord hears in one moment of time the prayers of ten million Christians around the world, and sympathizes with each one personally and individually like a caring Father (as Hebrews 4:15 says he will), even though among those ten million prayers some are broken-hearted and some are bursting with joy? How can God weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice when they are both coming to him at the same time—in fact are always coming to him with no break at all?

Or who can comprehend that God is angry at the sin of the world every day (Psalm 7:11), and yet every day, every moment, he is rejoicing with tremendous joy because somewhere in the world a sinner is repenting (Luke 15:7,10,23)? Who can comprehend that God continually burns with hot anger at the rebellion of the wicked, grieves over the unholy speech of his people (Ephesians 4:29-30), yet takes pleasure in them daily (Psalm 149:4), and ceaselessly makes merry over penitent prodigals who come home?

Who of us could say what complex of emotions is not possible for God? All we have to go on here is what he has chosen to tell us in the Bible. And what he has told us is that there is a sense in which he does not experience pleasure in the judgment of the wicked, and there is a sense in which he does.

Therefore we should not stumble over the fact that God does and does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. When Moses warns Israel that the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon them and destroying them if they do not repent (Deuteronomy 28:63), he means that those who have rebelled against the Lord and moved beyond repentance will not be able to gloat that they have made the Almighty miserable. God is not defeated in the triumphs of his righteous judgment. Quite the contrary. Moses says that when they are judged they will unwittingly provide an occasion for God to rejoice in the demonstration of his justice and his power and the infinite worth of his glory (Romans 9:22-23).

When God took counsel with himself as to whether he should save all people, he consulted not only the truth of what he sees when looking through the narrow lens but also the larger truth of what he sees when all things are viewed through the wide-angle lens of his all-knowing wisdom. If, as Calvinists say, God deems it wise and good to elect unconditionally some to salvation and not others, one may legitimately ask whether the offer of salvation to all is genuine. Is it made with heart? Does it come from real compassion? Is the willing that none perish a bona fide willing of love?

The way I would give an account of this is explained by Robert L. Dabney in an essay written over a hundred years ago. His treatment is very detailed and answers many objections that go beyond the limits of this chapter. I will simply give the essence of his solution which seems to me to be on the right track, though he, as well as I, would admit we do not "furnish an exhaustive explanation of this mystery of the divine will."

Dabney uses an analogy from the life of George Washington taken from Chief-Justice Marshall's Life of Washington. A certain Major André had jeopardized the safety of the young nation through "rash and unfortunate" treasonous acts. Marshall says of the death warrant, signed by Washington, "Perhaps on no occasion of his life did the commander-in-chief obey with more reluctance the stern mandates of duty and of policy." Dabney observes that Washington's compassion for André was "real and profound". He also had "plenary power to kill or to save alive." Why then did he sign the death warrant? Dabney explains, "Washington's volition to sign the death-warrant of André did not arise from the fact that his compassion was slight or feigned, but from the fact that it was rationally counterpoised by a complex of superior judgments . . . of wisdom, duty, patriotism, and moral indignation [the wide-angle lens]."

Dabney imagines a defender of André, hearing Washington say, "I do this with the deepest reluctance and pity." Then the defender says, "Since you are supreme in this matter, and have full bodily ability to throw down that pen, we shall know by your signing this warrant that your pity is hypocritical." Dabney responds to this by saying, "The petulance of this charge would have been equal to its folly. The pity was real, but was restrained by superior elements of motive. Washington had official and bodily power to discharge the criminal, but he had not the sanctions of his own wisdom and justice." The corresponding point in the case of divine election is that "the absence of volition in God to save does not necessarily imply the absence of compassion." God has "a true compassion, which is yet restrained, in the case of the . . . non-elect, by consistent and holy reasons, from taking the form of a volition to regenerate." God's infinite wisdom regulates his whole will and guides and harmonizes (not suppresses) all its active principles."

In other words, God has a real and deep compassion for perishing sinners. Jeremiah points to this reality in God's heart. In Lamentations 3:32-33 he speaks of the judgment that God has brought upon Jerusalem: "Though he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men." The word "willingly" translates a composite Hebrew word (milibo) which means literally "from his heart" (cf. 1 Kings 12:33). It appears that this is Jeremiah's way of saying that God does will the affliction that he caused, but he does not will it in the same way he wills compassion. The affliction did not come "from his heart." Jeremiah was trying, as we are, to come to terms with the way a sovereign God wills two different things, affliction and compassion.

God's expression of pity and his entreaties have heart in them. There is a genuine inclination in God's heart to spare those who have committed treason against his kingdom. But his motivation is complex, and not every true element in it rises to the level of effective choice. In his great and mysterious heart there are kinds of longings and desires that are real— they tell us something true about his character. Yet not all of these longings govern God's actions. He is governed by the depth of his wisdom expressed through a plan that no ordinary human deliberation would ever conceive (Romans 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 2:9). There are holy and just reasons for why the affections of God's heart have the nature and intensity and proportion that they do.

Dabney is aware that several kinds of objections can be raised against the analogy of George Washington as it is applied to God. He admits that "no analogy can be perfect between the actions of a finite and the infinite intelligence and will." Yet I think he is right to say that the objections do not overthrow the essential truth that there can be, in a noble and great heart (even a divine heart), sincere compassion for a criminal that is nevertheless not set free.

Therefore I affirm with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 that God loves the world with a deep compassion that desires the salvation of all men. Yet I also affirm that God has chosen from before the foundation of the world whom he will save from sin. Since not all people are saved we must choose whether we believe (with the Arminians) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to human self-determination or whether we believe (with the Calvinists) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to the glorification of his sovereign grace (Ephesians 1:6,12,14; Romans 9:22-23).

This decision should not be made on the basis of metaphysical assumptions about what we think human accountability requires. It should be made on the basis of what the scriptures teach. I do not find in the Bible that human beings have the ultimate power of self-determination. As far as I can tell it is a philosophical inference based on metaphysical presuppositions. On the other hand this book aims to show that the sovereignty of God's grace in salvation is taught in Scripture.

My contribution has simply been to show that God's will for all people to be saved is not at odds with the sovereignty of God's grace in election. That is, my answer to the above question about what restrains God's will to save all people is his supreme commitment to uphold and display the full range of his glory through the sovereign demonstration of his wrath and mercy for the enjoyment of his elect and believing people from every tribe and tongue and nation.

A
andres

Logic, if your honest, when you pray, you ask God to Change men's hearts, most all christians pray like this... they ask God to break mens hearts, and ask God to save men, despite the attitudes and will of those men.. we have all prayed in this manner. Look if men already had the ability to save themselves then why do we need to pray to God, forget praying.. its up to man then to save himself.. so just hope one day that the unsaved man changes his mind .. but ill keep asking God invade man no matter the outcome.. God is always Good..
love andy

B
boG

[b]What is the significance of love if there is no potential of being hated freely and independantly by another?[/b]


[b]If every event is Sovereignly willed by God, are the thoughts of men also Sovereignly willed by God?[/b]
For it is written, out of the heart flows the issues of life. And again, "when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Also to mention God giving "hardening of the heart".

Which in further consideration would make every thought captive to the Unlimited Sovereignty of God and, thus, every subsequent event. Whereby, men would not be free willed, much less, free thinkers.

[b]Where exactly does God end and man begin in this theology?[/b]

[b]Or, is man no more than an extension of God Himself, that is to say, not an independant creation with qualities seperate from God's Unlimited Sovereignty?[/b]

[b]If man has nothing to call "his own" then how can he be anything but an emptied form of God?[/b]


Look if men already had the ability to save themselves then why do we need to pray to God, forget praying.. its up to man then to save himself..

First off, Logic has not said this.
Secondly, "then why do we need to pray to God" implies man's obedience to seek God's face. As it is written, seek and ye shall find. Are you trying to disagree to a false statement and agree to Logic's true statement?


Is this not how the Apostle Paul prsents his case for election in Romans 9?

No it isn't.
Romans 9:3 "[...] for the sake of my brethren, [b]my kinsmen according to the flesh[/b]."

Paul is not referring to the "non-elect" but to the entire race of Jews, his kinsmen according to the flesh. The Jews who are God's covenant people which have been given the promise of Christ, the Messiah, whom they have crucified and rejected. Paul is grieved because the very people Christ first came for did not all receive Him.


Thank you intrcssr83, I did enjoy reading that essay by John Piper.

It is good to know that there is more thought behind this theology of "Unconditional Election" than what I have been reading here so far.

I was impressed with the amount of detail and forethought but I still found it overall lacking in completion. An estimation which the author himself also agrees with. However, by opinion of persuasion, the author had personal leanings for his final thoughts for what he felt was the "most accurate" conclusion.


Allow me to try a different approach than focusing on salvation. Let us go back and begin with Adam and Eve.

Genesis 1
26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29. Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you.


[b]How is man made "in Our image, according to Our likeness"?[/b]


Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and [b]man became a living being[/b].

1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man [b]Adam was made a living soul[/b].

So there is a relationship here between man being made "in Our image, according to Our likeness" and man being made "a living soul" or "a living being".


[b]According to this theology of Unlimited Sovereignty, How does this quality of man being a "living soul" characterize man made "in Our image, according to Our likeness"?[/b]


Genesis 2
19. Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.


[b]According to this theology of Unlimited Sovereignty, who named the animals, God or Adam?[/b]

Why did God bring the animals to Adam "to see what the man would call them"?

A) "will of decree":
[b]Did God sovereignly will certain names for Adam to give the animals according to His own Pleasure (God)?[/b]

B) "will of command":
[b]Did God sovereignly will for Adam to freely choose to name the animals as it pleased himself (man)?[/b]

C) Or, [b]both A and B are true?[/b]

The answer is C. Do you agree or disagree?

God was well pleased to choose those names which Adam himself was also well pleased to freely choose.

A) The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace.

B) The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).

C) Or, both A and B are true?

[b]According to these statements the answer is also C.[/b] Do you agree or disagree?

Aside from this, I would like to make a few comments on the previous threads.

Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical. It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.

Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?

Does this change anything for you? Or, are you still persistent that you have rightly divided the Word of God?


Romans 2:4
"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?"

As I asked in a previous thread.

[b]Is it possible that a depraved man may turn from his wicked way for no other reason than that God, Who is Love, loved that sinner just as He loved His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ?[/b]


"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God"

The description Paul has given is this:
[b]The mind cannot submit to God's Law WHILE it is set on the flesh.[/b]

What does Paul say, Romans 7:18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for [b]to will is present with me[/b]; but [b]how to perform[/b] that which is good I find not."

The desire, the will, to do good is present even in the "depraved heart", though for most sinners this desire they have seared as with a branding iron. It cannot be put out but indeed made as if dimmed.

[b]What lacks is the "how to do".[/b]

This is completely contrary to what you have written,

The fact is they can but it would go [b]against the grain of all their desires[/b]

Paul said, all the desires to do good are, in fact, "present with me".

Does this change anything for your theology?

Romans 7
22. [b]For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,[/b]
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. [b]Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b] So then, on the one hand [b]I myself with my mind am serving the law of God[/b], but on the other, [b]with my flesh the law of sin[/b].

[b]What is this distinction Paul makes between "my mind serving the law of God" and "my flesh the law of sin"?[/b]


[b]Romans 7 sets up an excellent introduction into Isaiah 58 to tell us "how to do" what the Law of God has written in our hearts.[/b]

Isaiah 58
13. "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
14. Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

God says, "cease from your ways and workings then I will work My Ways". Then He tells us to "Come, Follow Me. Walk by faith and not by sight."

You have continued to mistake this concept as "man's ability to save himself."

This entire concept is focused on man's inability to work the righteousness of God. He may have the zeal and desire to do good as Paul had and still end up persecuting the true church.

What did the Lord command the disciples? "Tarry in Jerusalem until you be endued (clothed) with power from on high."

Stop your works, until I have given you my Holy Spirit which you need to be My witness through My works which I have prepared for you to walk in.

Paul may plant and Apollos may water but it is God who causes the growth. The Father working through Christ through men to His purpose, reconciling all things to Himself in Christ Jesus.

W
whyme

boG said, Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?

boG, I don't follow what your saying here about 1Cor12. My point was that God does in fact give faith. I'm pretty sure that the Scripture says that. I think that Logic was trying to suggest that this particular text did show God giving faith but that it was limited to extraordinary faith. I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness. My own speculation is that at the very least the faith given in 1 Cor 12 is on par with saving faith. Wouldn't you? The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

L
Logic

whyme wrote:
boG said, Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?

boG, I don't follow what your saying here about 1Cor12. My point was that God does in fact give faith. I'm pretty sure that the Scripture says that. I think that Logic was trying to suggest that this particular text did show God giving faith but that it was limited to extraordinary faith. I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness. My own speculation is that at the very least the faith given in 1 Cor 12 is on par with saving faith. Wouldn't you? The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

As I said, the Gift of Faith is to know for certain something that can not be known from anything except from a divine revelation.

Gift of Faith = God may or may not miraclulously heal at this moment, but you know for certain HE will at this particular time.
God may or may not speak audibly at this moment, but you know for certain HE will at this particular time.
God may or may not because the fact that God does not always, every time do as we ask or pray, but by the Gift of Faith you can proclainm as fact that God will when it is impossible to be proven to know with such boldness.

Saving faith = any one can know that God will for certain save you if asked Him to in prayer, you know for certain HE will at this particular time and every time and all the time.

The non-gift of faith is believing because of factual history of the Gosple, acknowledging the truth of God's Word and acting upon it because the Word of God is validated by prophecy coming to pass.
The non-gift of faith is trusting the facts from the Bible to be true and beliving the withness of HIS redeemed because the evidence of what is known.

Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.

Faith to be saved is something which is from facts; the law is true, you have broken that law, you are a siner, you need to repent, there is a True God, Jesus factualy died on the cross, HE factualy reserected from the dead, you are able to know your sins are taken care of from what is known.

The Gift of Faith can not be known for fact.
When my pastor prayed for that broken leg in a cast, no one could say with such boldness to take the cast off because you are heald.
No one could say with such boldness that God will speak audibly to anyone.
The Gift of Faith has no facts to back it up that you can say, " hear, see, this prooves what I say is true."

With out The Gift of Faith no one can say you are definitly healed miraclously, because God may or may not heal at that time.
With out The Gift of Faith, you can not give a "Word of Knowledge" or a "Word of Wisdom"

With out The Gift of Faith, you can not prove that God wll act miraculously at that specific moment.

I don't know how to be any more specific than this.

I asked you if you have been used by the Holy Spirit with His Gifts?
Please answer this.
My guess that you have not by the way you are speeking about one of the Gifts.

whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness.
Any one can know for certain that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God because of the of the facts behind HIM.
Daniels 70 weeks and all prophecy about HIM, the reserection, His apearing to over five hundred brethren at once, His ascention.
There is no need for a "gift of faith" to believe that The 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God.

W
whyme

Logic said:
Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.

Faith to be saved is something which is from facts; the law is true, you have broken that law, you are a siner, you need to repent, there is a True God, Jesus factualy died on the cross, HE factualy reserected from the dead, you are able to know your sins are taken care of from what is known.


One response seems to be appropriate.....The Bible you're reading must be very old...some pages seem to have fallen out.

B
boG

Yes, his Bible is so old and used the pages fell out and found their way into his heart for safe keeping.

[b]And, by the way, the response you have given is not appropriate.[/b]


I am getting the impression you all are neglecting to respond to the questions in my threads. However, that is well because I do not write them for you only.

I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness.

Romans 12:3
as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Is not the same "faith" as ...

1 Corinthians 12:9
to a different one [the gift of] faith by the same Spirit

1 Corinthians 12 is not divided "TO ALL" but "To another ... severaly as He wills."

You cannot use both of these verses to assert your claim.

Although, I wouldn't necessarily agree that

Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.

Historical facts are indeed supportive of the truth of the Bible. But I do not believe this is a necessary understanding to have for salvation.

The radical changes in people's lives certainly are a useful witness. Such things can provoke others into jealousy for the things of God.

But still the True Witness is the Spirit of God that calls all men to repent, to turn and see. This is not by a "gift of faith" (1 Cor 12) but the natural inclination of all men to have a knowledge of God. That natural faith by which we may perceive with our eyes, and hear with our ears, and understand with our hearts the invisible Attributes and Nature of God.

John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If all men by instinct are able to obey the Law of God written in their hearts (Romans 2), then this implies there is some knowledge. This conclusion is agreeable to Scripture (many which we have all already posted).


[b]Romans 1:28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer.[/b]

This word for "acknowledge" is "epignōsis" (Strong's G1922)
[b]1)[/b] precise and correct knowledge
a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine


But eternal life is to "KNOW" in comparison to "knowledge" or "acknowledge"

"ginōskō" (Strong's 1097)

[b]1)[/b] to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
a) to become known

[b]2)[/b] to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
a) to understand
b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know


Faith is the way by which man has knowledge of God and by which man may know God,

[b]"from faith to faith."[/b]

Both words for faith here are "pistis" (Strong's 4102)

[b]1)[/b] conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
a) relating to God

[b]1)[/b] the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
b) relating to Christ

[b]1)[/b] a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
c) the religious beliefs of Christians
d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

[b]2)[/b] fidelity, faithfulness
a) the character of one who can be relied on

C
clintstone

hello christinyou and miccah . i put this post in here becuase in logics' post on i think 5/13/08 it contained a statement that said, " all decendents of adam are sinners ,all men women and children are sinners , we are born sinners ,sin lives in us". this statement is not the truth and yet many people including many christians believe this and the bible nowwhere says this. there is a big difference in physical depravity and moral depravity. the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN , spirit soul and body being preserved blameless . 1 thess.5;23-24 being preserved blameless is not being a sinner you cannot sin and not be blameless .1 john 3;6-11 whosoever abides in Him sins not:whosoever sins has not seen Him , niether knows Him. little children let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous ,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. he that committeth sin IS OF THE devil ; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR this purpose the SON OF GOD was manifested that HE might destroy the works of the devil. whosoever is born of God does not commit sin,for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.in this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ,niether he that loveth not his brother. for this is the message that you have heard from the begining, that we should love one another. this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy .how dare we stop the purifying, sin irradicating, as far as east is from west, Savior of the whole race ,the LORD of All lords ,JESUS CHRIST, from doing His perfect work in us . holiness is sinlessness that simple, as He is so are we in this world. children are not born sinners, noone is, the psalms does not say that. Job does not say that. so the statement i was refering to is false and were the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. liberty to be all that our HEAVENLY FATHER says we can, should and would be, and that is perfect and holy ad He is perfect and holy.

C
Christinyou

Yes we know that He that is in us does not sin.
Yes it is His seed that is in us and He cannot sin. So, in the Spirit we cannot sin, in the flesh we can, even though our body has been quickened to contain the perfect Seed of the Son of God which God has birthed in us when we were born again. Just like the Seed of Christ from the Father was put in Mary by the Holy Spirit so the Seed of Christ is birthed In us by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin.

A man can commit a sin of the flesh and John also says so in: 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice, "if we" commit a sin. That is not the in the Spirit, but that flesh sin is in our soul, mind. The Spirit cannot sin because it is the Spirit of Christ that is in us. So we being son's of God cannot sin in the Spirit. We can sin in the flesh-soul, that is controlled by our mind, this is the sin of the flesh. "But", 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Where do we confess our sin? In the mind-flesh our soul. The Spirit is The Spirit of Christ, He is our new life and He is the one that cannot sin which makes us son's of God perfect, just like He is.

In renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ the soul-mind is learning to be just like our Spirit and some day it will be perfect just like His, and we will be learning Christ for all eternity.

Perfect in the Spirit, being made perfect in the soul, and will be made perfect in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

In Christ: Phillip

B
boG

clintstone you are confusing what Logic said. Logic was writing about unbelievers. You have mistakenly applied what Logic said to Spirit-filled believers.

this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy

christinyou answered this point well enough.

"Notice, 'if we' commit a sin."

This "if we commit a sin" was also written to Spirit-filled believers.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin.

This is not exactly accurate. The Seed is the Word of God. The Seed is born of God in us. But the focus of this verse is where the Seed is and not the Seed Himself.

So it isn't a matter of "This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin". But whether or not whosoever is born of God, because His seed remaineth in him, may yet commit sin. The focus is the believer, not the Seed.

And it should also be made clear that this is talking about "sin" (if we sin we have an Advocate) and not "practicing sin", a lifestyle of unrepentance.

So we being son's of God cannot sin in the Spirit.

This is well said.

The Spirit is The Spirit of Christ, He is our new life and He is the one that cannot sin which makes us son's of God perfect, just like He is.

In renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ the soul-mind is learning to be just like our Spirit and some day it will be perfect just like His, and we will be learning Christ for all eternity.

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you here but I would like to make one point.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

The Holy Spirit is not our spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who testifies WITH our spirit. These are not the Self-same Spirit.

Just wanted to mention this so there wouldn't be any mistaking that God's Spirit has not become our very own spirit. But rather, His Spirit with our spirit seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6).

M
Miccah

clintstone wrote:


hello christinyou and miccah . i put this post in here becuase in logics' post on i think 5/13/08 it contained a statement that said, " all decendents of adam are sinners ,all men women and children are sinners , we are born sinners ,sin lives in us". this statement is not the truth and yet many people including many christians believe this and the bible nowwhere says this. there is a big difference in physical depravity and moral depravity. the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN , spirit soul and body being preserved blameless . 1 thess.5;23-24 being preserved blameless is not being a sinner you cannot sin and not be blameless .1 john 3;6-11 whosoever abides in Him sins not:whosoever sins has not seen Him , niether knows Him. little children let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous ,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. he that committeth sin IS OF THE devil ; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR this purpose the SON OF GOD was manifested that HE might destroy the works of the devil. whosoever is born of God does not commit sin,for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.in this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ,niether he that loveth not his brother. for this is the message that you have heard from the begining, that we should love one another. this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy .how dare we stop the purifying, sin irradicating, as far as east is from west, Savior of the whole race ,the LORD of All lords ,JESUS CHRIST, from doing His perfect work in us . holiness is sinlessness that simple, as He is so are we in this world. children are not born sinners, noone is, the psalms does not say that. Job does not say that. so the statement i was refering to is false and were the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. liberty to be all that our HEAVENLY FATHER says we can, should and would be, and that is perfect and holy ad He is perfect and holy.


Hey Clintstone,

There are many posts on here that speak on the subject you are speaking. As for the rebuke you directed towards me... Thank you, but I have no idea why I was referenced.

If you are refering to never sinning after being saved, I don't subscribe to that doctrine. But that is another topic
:-)

C
Christinyou

Bog wrote:

"""I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you here but I would like to make one point.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

The Holy Spirit is not our spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who testifies WITH our spirit. These are not the Self-same Spirit.

Just wanted to mention this so there wouldn't be any mistaking that God's Spirit has not become our very own spirit. But rather, His Spirit with our spirit seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)."""


I was not saying the Holy Spirit is our Spirit, I was saying the the Spirit of Christ is our Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does His work in our soul-mind, that is why Jesus Prayed the Father that He would send us the Comforter and He would bring to MIND all that Jesus says.

The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself to us, He only speaks of what Jesus Gives Him to say.

The Spirit of Christ who is our Spirit now, the spirit of Satan out and the Spirit of Christ in.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

The Holy Spirit Comforter:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Also in you:

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with the mind I my self serve the Law of God: but with the flesh, the law of sin.

"The mind the flesh and the devil.

Why do we serve the Law of God with the mind?
It is the Holy Spirit that give us the teaching of Jesus Christ and the willingness to obey the teachings of Christ who is the Word, now our Spirit and life in Him, that we might serve God our Father by His Son that He has birthed in us.

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of Christ In us, which without we are none of His.

The Holy Spirit in us:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The Comforter, Teacher, The Holy Spirit with Power, come at Pentecost.

Philippians 3:14-16 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Sorry, I will try to make things more clear.

In Christ: Phillip

B
bonni

Dear Clinstone,

In Romans it says, "therefore as by the offense of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


I love all of the scriptures that you quoted, I truly believe that God's grace gives the power to live an obedient life. He has freed us so that we can walk in obedience. But that obedience does not mean "sinless perfection" in this life. I am afraid that that would be heresy. The psalmist said "as for me I will be satisfied when I awake in His likeness". As long as we are consistently walking in obedience, and quick to repent of any wrong thought,deed or motive, then we can have a clear concience before God. If we do sin we have an advocate with the Father... I am so thankful for Christ ,so thankful for His Spirit. He is the one who does the sanctifying, but we have to do the thing He says which is "Abide In Me" Then we will bear much fruit, and herein is my Father glorified. It is a process of being changed from glory to glory as we behold the face of Jesus.


Holliness is Christlikeness - Fullstop!

Blessings bonni

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:

I was not saying the Holy Spirit is our Spirit, I was saying the the Spirit of Christ is our Spirit.

How is the Spirit of Christ any different than the Holy Spirit?
What is " the Spirit of Christ" if it ain't the Holy Spirit Himself?

The Holy Spirit does His work in our soul-mind, that is why Jesus Prayed the Father that He would send us the Comforter and He would bring to MIND all that Jesus says.
How is the "soul mind" any different than the "mind" its self?

With all your new age theology terms, no one can tell what your talking about

The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself to us, He only speaks of what Jesus Gives Him to say.

The Spirit of Christ who is our Spirit now, the spirit of Satan out and the Spirit of Christ in.

Are you saying that all who aren't saved are possessed with Satan?
That is what you just said.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The law of sin & death are not one law.
There is no law of "sin & death"
The best internation is:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin
[b]&[/b]
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the death

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with the mind I my self serve the Law of God: but with the flesh, the law of sin.

"The mind the flesh and the devil.

It does not say "the devil", it says the "law of sin"
The "law of sin" is The ''law of sin'' is the demands of our own fleshly desires & effections against known law that bring me in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh & our own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.

Why do we serve the Law of God with the mind?
Because it is the only way. No one can serve the law of God any other way.

It is the Holy Spirit that give us the teaching of Jesus Christ and the willingness to obey the teachings of Christ who is the Word, now our Spirit and life in Him, that we might serve God our Father by His Son that He has birthed in us.
The "willingness to obey" is because we love Him.
There is no other reason that we obey.

The Spirit of Christ In us, which without we are none of His.
The Holy Spirit & the Spirit of Christ is one & the same, do not separate them.

C
clintstone

someday we will not sin, sin is only a choice it is not constitutional. any thing that is involuntary ,like our physical bodies ,is not sinful nor have anything to do with sin , my argument is with the misinterpretation of 1john 1:8 that if we say we have no sin we are liars and the love of God is not in us . should be interpreted to say and mean that, if we say we are not liable, or free to choose to sin, then we are liars, i have studied much on this line and i know my business when it comes to this teaching on sactification entire in this life spirit, soul and body. be ye perfect ... our father says and commands . sin is not anything constitutional charles finney ,in his systematic theology clears this up best.

C
clintstone

hello bonni thank you for recognizing good news the good news is that Jesus ' blood is most efficient to remove all sin from us in this life now . all sin spirit soul and body preserved blameless , the bible nowhere says we will have sin until we die and yet that is exactly what's inferred when people say that we cannot as christians have sinless perfection now in this life. sinless perfection is exactly what faith in God will do all we need to do is obey all that we know and we are sinlessly perfect. sanctification is spoken of 2 ways ,in the bible short term and long term . hence repentance and forgivness yet as we put on Christ more the easier it is to know freedom from sin and how to escape every temptation . sinless perfection is attianable and that is not heresy.

C
clintstone

miccah i only included you in my post because you put a ? mark regarding my first post about my dipute with the comment that all people are sinners when we are born. i realize i butted in the middle of some discussion that i was not fully aware of in this , and i did not mean for you to think i was rebuking you in any of what i said , only those who hold to the idea that all are sinners and all will be as long as we physically live, that is not what the gospel is about . i am sorry for not being clearer in my original post .most minister that are full time ministers evn teach that sin is something constitutional that we as christians cannot get rid of until we die and that is not what the bible teaches most misinterpret 1john , romans7 and phillipians 3, thanks for posting to my and letting me know how you thought about it sorry for the offence.

C
Christinyou

Jesus is no longer subject to be in the flesh, with mortal limitation. He is in His own resurrection power, which He said, "I have the power to lay down my life and take it again". John 10: 17,18.

Now at this time in coming again in mortal human flesh on this earth, His character and resurrection power, He being God before the foundation of the world and His Oneness with the Father and the Holy Spirit and He maintaining this power has kept His promise in the coming again in the quickened flesh, spirit and baptizing the soul into the Holy Spirit of the ones that the Father has given Him.

If He had not maintained this creation and resurrection power, which was His Spirit; pneuma
Not the psuche That died on the Cross, all creation would have crumbled and died. On the Cross The Holy Spirit or the Father were at the end not with Jesus, for He said, "Father why have you forsaken me: He was alone and He alone hang on the Cross that He might be the first among many that would be son's of God because of the Obedience of Christ to the Father. The Holy Spirit was not on the Cross, Jesus alone said, "It is finished".

In Obedience to the same power of laying down His own life and able to take it up again displayed in His own resurrection, the calling of Lazarus come forth. All the dead would have come forth if He had not called the name Lazarus. Power beyond our understanding. Rev 1:18 Col 1:17&18

How ever now by His resurrection power He has reconciled all things unto Himself, by His Cross. Col 1:20

In His body, that is the, "Body of Christ His Church" and "individuals thereof," He has retained human limitations, by being born again in those the Father has given Him, and exercises His omniscience and presence on earth through mortal humans, making them son's of God, through His Body the Church. Eph 1:22&23

Jesus did not promise all those when He prayed, that He would be everywhere, as the Holy Spirit is, after Pentecost, convicting of sin and sealing those the Father has given the Son. Jesus said, He only lost one, "Judas" and that to fulfill scriptures. John 17:12 Praise God there was only one. The promise and prayer of Jesus was secure, He would be with and in those the Father gave Him. This is our Glory; Col 1:27&28.

He promised He would be with us always, our life and our all in all. He also promised the Holy Spirit sent by the Father as "another Comforter".

Then He says, "John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless : I will come to you .

This word comfortless, means; orphans, fatherless, it has nothing to do with, "another Comforter", "I will not leave you", He is the only one that can be the Incorruptable Seed born again in us that can make God our "Father" and us not orphans. Then the Holy Spirit seals that Seed In us and we will always be with the Lord. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Jesus now in being seated with and in the eternal Father again, is manifesting His presence in His people the Body of Christ His Church. In whom He has baptized us into the Holy Spirit, Teacher, "another Comforter", who applies the truth and manifests the teaching of Christ in whom we have "The Mind of Christ", renewing it by the truth and power of the Holy Spirit, where He works, the psuche the now eternal rational mortal soul of the believer our minds in whom the Mind of Christ is in the believer.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God eternal in the God Head, different in Manifestation and and application to bring forth the children that God intended before the foundation of the World.
By His perfect Plan.

In Application and Manifestation the Holy Spirit in Not Jesus Christ, or The Father the Son.

Ephesians 1:3-13 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The God Heads Plan which was planned before the foundation of the World, to be son's in the Father's House. What are son's in harmony with Fathers? The Seed, The Nature, which cannot be changed. Birthed by God the Father to be son's of the living God by the Nature of His only begotten Son He has put that perfect Seed in the believer.

Ye must be Born Again.

In Christ: Phillip

T
tjservant

I believe the article "The Balance Between Human Logic and God’s Logic", may shed light into this discussion. It is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23974&forum=35]here[/url]

B
boG

sin is not anything constitutional charles finney ,in his systematic theology clears this up best.

Charles Finney's Systematic Theology is probably really good, but certainly looks like a lot of reading :P

Jesus alone said, "It is finished".

Jesus also said, John 5:19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

Does this Scripture not "in like manner" apply to Jesus saying "it is finished" and dying on a cross? It certainly does. But before you accuse me of saying anything weird, "in like manner" does not mean "the exact same manner". Just as the OT Temple was made "in like manner" to the Heavenly Temple.

and baptizing the soul into the Holy Spirit

This statement will not be true for "the ones that the Father has given Him" until we are caught up and changed in an instant at the 2nd coming of Christ. As it is, in time, only the spirit of a man is able to be baptized into the Holy Spirit. Hence, the distinction Paul gives concerning praying:

1 Corinthians 14
14. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

The spirit of a man may be praying "fervently in the Holy Ghost", either with groanings too deep for words or with utterances, using the tongue, by which the soul profits nothing; because it understands nothing being prayed by the Spirit through the spirit. Unless there is given an Interpretation of Tongues.

Therefore, "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also."

And likewise, the distinction given in Revelations concerning the new heavens and the new earth where there shall be the casting off of the natural lights of heaven (sun, moon, stars) in the "outer courts of the temple" being comparative to the natural flesh of man, the mind of the flesh. And the casting out of the lamp (or candlestick) in the "inner court of the temple" being comparative to the sanctified mind, that is the "eyes" of the soul fixed on Christ. For Christ Himself shall be the Light of body, soul, and spirit - "for [then] we shall be like Him".

All the dead would have come forth if He had not called the name Lazarus.

Um, no. If all Jesus said was "come forth" it still would have been only Lazarus because Lazarus was the specific subject of the prayer.

Or, shall we also say the woman with the issue of blood (Luke 8:43) could not be healed unless Jesus also called her by name as well? We read, He was not even aware who had touched Him.

You are limiting the working of God by the expounding and multiplying of words with the mouth. Shall Jesus rather have said "Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha -- Lazarus the son of *person*, who was born *DoB*, and Social Security *number*, etc. ... come forth!" Or perhaps, shall we understand that every "Lazarus" in the world, who was dead, rose up from their graves too?

Jesus did not promise all those when He prayed, that He would be everywhere, as the Holy Spirit is.

Um, no. You are saying that Jesus is not God, if you believe that Jesus, the Son, is not Omnipresent as the Holy Spirit and the Father are.

Jesus said, He only lost one, "Judas" and that to fulfill scriptures.

Are you implying that there has never been even a second lost?

If this were true then what of
[b]Hebrews 6[/b]
4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Common sense dictates Paul said this is important to know because this can happen.

Then the Holy Spirit seals that Seed In us and we will always be with the Lord.

This is not accurate either. The Holy Spirit is given as the "seal" or "marking" or "evidence", we might say, that the Seed of Christ is in us. For again, the Holy Spirit is also so named the "Spirit of Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit gives no certainty of an "eternal seal" as you have described it. But rather, 1 John 3:3, And every man that hath [b]this hope in him[/b] purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Hence, such Scripture as the following:
2 Peter 1
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence [b]to make your calling and [u]election[/u] SURE[/b]: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Then He says, "John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless : I will come to you .

This word comfortless, means; orphans, fatherless, it has nothing to do with, "another Comforter"

How exactly did you come to this strange conclusion? Sometimes I wonder where you come up with this stuff. Is this something you received through diligent and prayerful study of the Bible or did you copy this off some textbook or website?

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

That "he may abide with you for ever", is this "he" indicating the Father or the Holy Spirit? Grammar would imply that "he" is referring to the Father, but let us not jump to conclusions.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I (Jesus Christ) stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, [b]I will come in to him[/b] and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Or, back to [b]John 14, two verses after where you have quoted[/b],
20. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, [b]and I in you[/b].

And again, "that I am in My Father, and you in Me", as the Scripture declares we are "hid in Christ in God [the Father]".

We all agree the Holy Spirit is said to be in us. But do I also need to list more Scripture that says "the Son is in you" and "the Father is in you" and "the Holy Spirit is in you"? I can do that if it would help.

In whom He has baptized us into the Holy Spirit

"In whom" is referencing to what now? I didn't quite catch what the object of this "whom" was.

the Holy Spirit, Teacher, "another Comforter", who applies the truth and manifests the teaching of Christ in whom we have "The Mind of Christ", renewing it by the truth and power of the Holy Spirit, where He works, the psuche the now eternal rational mortal soul of the believer our minds in whom the Mind of Christ is in the believer.

This phrase, "the psuche the now eternal rational mortal soul of the believer our minds in whom the Mind of Christ is in the believer", is bizarre in the extreme.

Honestly, this whole paragraph is mind-boggling. First off, "eternal" and "mortal" are contradictory terms. There is a lot more I could say about this paragraph but I will refrain for reasons of confusion.

I am not certain what you are implying by this phrase "The Mind of Christ". However, apart from whatever you are intending to say, I would like to give Scripture to see that this phrase is understood for what it truly is.

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [ ... and read the rest of the chapter, specifically noting verse 12, "So then," because of what he just said about Jesus ]

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

And likewise, Proverb 9:10, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Well, what is the fear of the Lord? The fear of the LORD is to hate evil (Proverb 8:8). And knowledge of the Holy One is eternal life (John 17:3, 2 Peter 1:8).

the God Head, different in Manifestation and application

In Application and Manifestation the Holy Spirit in Not Jesus Christ, or The Father the Son.

Differing in "manifestation" perhaps to the eyes of men, but certainly not differing in "application". For (one of many) a fact that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus raised Himself from the dead, and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. All Three working in One to the Same Application.

To state that the "Application" of Jesus was different than the Father's or the Spirit's is simply un-Scriptural and bizarre. From the Beginning to the End, the Godhead is in total Unity and Order for the same purpose in all things.

In terms of "manifestation", John 14:9, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?"

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and God was the Word."

the Word was
the Word was [b]with[/b] God
the Word [b]was[/b] God

The Trinity is, one of those Biblical doctrines I will indeed call, a Mystery. Some of the confusion you have written in your thread stems out of human conceptions of "defining" the Trinity as though He were Three distinct and seperate Entities.

For all "Application and Manifestation" the Lord our God is One Lord. Yet, God Himself refers to Himself as Three Persons in One: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In all my studies and reading, specifically on the Trinity, there is only one conclusion with any substance: "the Godhead, Three in One."

Which is strange to rationalize because we can refer specifically to the Father, or specifically to the Son, or specifically to the Spirit, yet each One is referred to through the Others.

We can't seperate One from the Three without denying the other Two as God. Not only this but you would be propagating Mormon and Jehovah's Witness doctrine of the Godhead being "many gods". Likewise, we can't make Three as a singular One without contradicting what is plainly revealed in Scripture.

C
Christinyou

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Romans 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

How long are we sealed?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Who's body are we baptized into?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

But let readers observe here, that the Spirit is, without any distinction, called sometimes the Spirit of God the Father, and sometimes the Spirit of Christ; and thus called, not only because his whole fulness was poured on Christ as our Mediator and head, so that from him a portion might descend on each of us, but also because he is equally the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, who have one essence, and the same eternal divinity. As, however, we have no intercourse with God except through Christ, the Apostle wisely descends to Christ from the Father, who seems to be far off:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"Because I live, you shall live also".

John 14:19-20 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The Spirit of Christ in you, taught by the endwelling Spirit Comforter of whom He will not speak of Himself but of Christ and what He says.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What does He hear? John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Who is the we?

Who is the I?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Abide in who?

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Why does the Comforter if He is Christ, not testify of Himself.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Christ is the Holy Spirit, why did Jesus have to go away, why did He not just stay and become the Holy Spirit?

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

How can Jesus Christ be the Holy Spirit of Truth?

In Essence of the God Head, Yes. In application and manifestation in the believer, No.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This fulfills the word of God. "Christ in you", not the Holy Spirit of promise that is the Teacher of this fulfillment.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

We are sons', We are not Jesus Christ, We have the Son in us, We have the Holy Spirit in us, We even have the Father living with us. We are all One in the total of who God is but separate in form and manifestation. We are not any of the Godhead by individuals but we do have different applications of who we are in making the fulness of Godhead. I am not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father, The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ, but we are One and in Him, Jesus Christ we are all in all.

In Christ: Phillip

C
clintstone

i do know that the three father, son, and holy ghost, are individual persons. oh spread the tidings round, wherever man is found, the comforter has come...rev.19:10 worship god, for the testamony of jesus is the spirit of prophesy . beloved desire the best gifts that you may prophesy. i love it when the holy spirit prohesies thru me and testifies of jesus. if only the body of christ would look to its head for guidance in all things. i do not believe i ever said we are god or jesus i am not a follower of copeland ,capps or hagin.hinn,

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