Hallelujah! Israel turns 60! (the end is near!)

Amen Krispy!!!

I am a die hard zionist. I beleive Jesus is on His way!

Shalom, James

Hello,

Can I be provocative?

First, she would return to the land in a state of unbelief. Then she would be converted. The amazing prophecy in Ezekiel 37:1-14 describes these two stages. Israel is depicted as a valley of bones that are resurrected. First the bones are given sinews and flesh and they stand up but with no breath in them, and next God breathes upon these dead bones and they live.

Are there any other instances in the scripture where Israel was able to enter back into the land in a state of unbelief? Or is the sole evidence based on the interpretation of those verses you referenced?

In other words, has the general rule always been that Israel would repent then they would be placed back into the land, but for this final time it's reversed?

2Ch 30:9 \tFor if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children [shall find] compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God [is] gracious and merciful, and will not turn away [his] face from you, if ye return unto him.

I'm just being provocative, I don't have the answers.

There have always been a certain amount of Jews living in the land under Palastinian rule, or British rule... or whoever else. But this is the first time the Jews have been there as a recognized sovereign nation since 70 AD. (even tho in 70 AD they were under Roman rule, they still had their own system of theocratic government... that was subject to Rome)

A small number of Jews moving in and out of the physical land is not what I believe scripture is referring to. Scripture is referring to the nation of Israel. And here we are, 2,000 years later... the only nation to ever cease to exist, scattered to the far reaches of the globe... and then brought back together again... as a nation. It has never happened before in the history of the world.

My question is, why is is that in history past they always had to be right with God as a whole to enter or abide in the land and yet this time they don't? If in history past this is what happened then why didn't we see a large revival of Jews turning to Christ right before/or at the same time they were restored to the land?

[b][u]Isaiah 35:10[/u][/b]

And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Did they return with "songs and everlasting joy" in 1948?

Bible prophecy describes the restoration of Israel in two parts. First, she would return to the land in a state of unbelief. Then she would be converted. The amazing prophecy in Ezekiel 37:1-14 describes these two stages. Israel is depicted as a valley of bones that are resurrected. First the bones are given sinews and flesh and they stand up but with no breath in them, and next God breathes upon these dead bones and they live.

Is this the only Scriptures upon whom you base your 'two parts/stages' theory?

Moe,

I don't see any of those talking about them being put in the land. It's possible they are referring to them becoming Christians. Most today believe that the romans verses are talking about that.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
So basically you all believe that the mere existence of Israel right now is some big coincidence?

Krispy

Basically I'm just asking questions that I've never heard anyone have an answer to. :-D

I want to base what I believe on the scriptures and what they are saying rather than try to interpret the scriptures to fit into what the newspaper is saying. I'm not saying you do this, but as I'm sure you know many do this. Since I've seen others do this, I don't want to fall into it myself. Some of the things I'm asking put some questions in my mind concerning the whole ordeal.

EDIT: Again, please don't take it I'm saying your basing your theology off of the newspaper. I'm just saying that some change their theology as much as the newspaper changes and I don't want to even resemble that.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
So basically you all believe that the mere existence of Israel right now is some big coincidence?

Of course not. The question is what's the God's real purpose and meaning of the present day Israel in the light of all prophecies and history.

Israel turns 60, quite an amazing thing. Sadly, she is looking bad for her age. It won't be long before she'll die again. Hopefully this time around she learn her lesson that none of her previous exiles or holocausts have taught her. Hopefully this time around, the church will be up to the task of being what it must be to the Jew so that it might be what it must be unto God.

Hi preach...

Are there any other instances in the scripture where Israel was able to enter back into the land in a state of unbelief? Or is the sole evidence based on the interpretation of those verses you referenced?

In other words, has the general rule always been that Israel would repent then they would be placed back into the land, but for this final time it's reversed?

[b]Romans 11:25-29 (KJV)[/b]

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[b]Romans 11:25-29 (NIV)[/b]

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but it is something to consider for those who think that Israel is no longer the "elect" (or "chosen") of God. Besides, it is an incredible fact that a nation was regathered into the Land of Canaan after many, many centuries of being scattered.

:-)

I think in all this talk about Israel one would do well to deeply consider the teachings of Art Katz on the matter. He is the only minister I have personally heard that avoids the false dichotomy of "two peoples of God" (dispensationalism) and the spiritualized interpretations provided by many concerning Israel in the reformed/covenant theology camp.

Katz shows quite rightly that the issue of Israel is the issue of God. If one misses it regarding His election of Israel as a nation to permanently inherit the land promised to the patriarchs so that they might be a blessing to all nations, then one will miss it in regard to so many other things. Depending on how one misses it will cause one to open themselves to either a violent anti-Semitism or a sappy sentimentalism concerning Israel (which ultimately is a mask for anti-Semitism.)

Art Katz (whose sermons have been frequently promoted on this site) is very literal when it comes to interpreting the Scripture, quotes it freely, and has great surgical precision in handling God's word. Very detailed and heavy stuff.

That is not addressed to anyone in particular but to everyone. It represents my view of the ultimate literalism of the prophesied events in spite of the pain and turmoil that will be associated with it. My growing prayer is that even now the Lord will begin to remove the blindness from the eyes of Israel and Jewish people everywhere. I think the church was commissioned from the very start to be a part of this.

Shalom

I think you state the issue clearly. I was never aware until recently of the false two people of God dichotomy and I don't support it. But neither have I been able to find myself agreeing with Reformed covenant theology that in my opinion over allegorizes and over spirtualizes the literalness of many of the prophecies concerning Israel. These controversies have been right where I have been at recently. It's taken some painful growing but I have reached the same conclusions as you and I appreciate Art Katz and the ministry there for helping.

"Doc"

A question to add to the discussion:

If I adopt Judaism as my religion, would I be considered a Jew?

Perhaps I should first ask: What is a Jew?

Is this synonymous with the Biblical use of the term: Israelite?

Diane

Unfortunately, such a replacement theology cannot stand under the scrutiny of Scripture, and here's why: Prophecy makes it explicitly clear that the nation of Israel and the land promised to the patriarchs is at the heart of God's ultimate purposes. For God's ultimate purposes are wrapped up in the promises He made to the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christ came, not to spiritualize these promises away, but rather, "to confirm the promises given to the fathers." (Romans 15:8)

These issues regarding these promises did not cease to be a consideration by God 2,000 years ago. Rather, God sees these issues as lasting until the very last moments of this present age. For ultimately at issue here is the faithfulness of God to His word, namely as it is demonstrated in His keeping of the covenants established with the only nation He has ever established covenants with: Israel.

For as Paul says, it is Israel "...to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the temple service and promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..." (Romans 9:4-5) To Israel alone do these things belong, for "You [Israel] only have I chosen among all the families of the earth." (Amos 3:2) Thus, the nation of Israel stands in a unique relationship to God that no other nation in the world can claim. For in God's sovereign choice in electing Israel as an object lesson for all, He demonstrates His lordship and grace. His lordship because He is the one in charge, and His grace because it is entirely of His choice and has nothing to do with what man might do or say.

Indeed, of all the real estate located on the globe, God has designated that everywhere that the sole of Abraham's foot tread would become the everlasting inheritance of his descendants (Gen 13:14-17) Never-mind at the time the land Abraham took his journey the land was presently occupied... God is the one in charge. Man can make his claim on the land all he wants. Indeed through history up until this present time men have been fighting day and night to claim ownership of the land. But the land belongs to no one... not even the Jews. Rather, the land belongs to Lord of the whole earth who has designated it for His own gracious purposes, to use a holy nation -- a nation of priests -- to be a source of blessing to all nations. For from Zion (Jerusalem) the law will go forth so as to cause men to hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks so that nation will not ever lift up sword against nation. (Isaiah 2:1-4)

But, we aren't quite there yet. There is still much more to go. Indeed, we see these issues which dominated the book of beginnings (Genesis), consume the Lord's mind even until the last days. For God says:

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel. 2 Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

You see, the Scriptures predict the restoration of Israel to the land in the last days. Otherwise, there would be no way that the nations of all the earth might be gathered against it in Jerusalem. This is not symbolic figurative language that can be spiritualized as speaking of the church. Nor is this an "extremely literal" interpretation. This is a plain interpretation of a reading of this text of what God sees happening up until the last moments of this age.

God goes on to say...

Zechariah 12:8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... 9 and in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have piereced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns over an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

The nations will come against Israel to destroy it. Why? Because the nations are their own lords, and refuse to submit to God's lordship. God has made a choice that has been set in stone. Thus, when the nations come and make war against Jerusalem, God says He will defend the inhabitants of the land in that day. He shall defend them in that day, not because of who they are, but because of who He is. For He is ultimately not defending Israel... indeed this provocation and wrath from the nations is due to them for they have pierced the Son of God. Rather, here is He is defending His word and His covenants. Israel is the mere object lesson by which this demonstration is made to all the world.

And it is here that we read that God will finally take the blinders off of apostate Israel. Indeed, they will see Him whom they have pierced! And when they see Him they will receive the Spirit of grace and supplication and mourn for their great apostasy and turn to God. Indeed, the Lord says, "...they will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My People," and they will say, 'The Lord is my God." (Zechariah 13:9) And He concludes this great prophecy: "And the Lord will be king over all the earth..." (Zechariah 14:9). [b][u]Indeed, the Lord will never be king over all the earth until He is king in Jerusalem.[/u][/b]

So much more could be said on this vast topic, beyond the scope and ability to explore on this message board. Like I said earlier, I highly recommend the teachings of Art Katz on this topic. He covers these things extensively and consistently throughout the the spam of his 40 years of ministry here on earth. I am but a small spokesman of this view.

King Jimmy, I wonder if you could share your response to my earlier questions:

if I adopt Judaism as my religion, would I be considered a Jew?

Perhaps I should first ask: What is a Jew? Is this synonymous with the Biblical use of the term: Israelite?

Diane

Ethnic Israel has been cursed forever never to bear fruit again.

Sadly, this is nothing short than the worst kind of error one could ever say. Not only will ethnic Israel bear fruit again, unless they bear fruit again and do so in fullness as a nation, there will be no resurrection of the dead!

The apostle writes:

Romans 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! ..

What you said above is completely out of the picture of Paul's theology. While you say they have fallen and have been replaced, Paul says such is entirely wrong. In fact, he goes on to say:

Romans 11:11 ...But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Because they have rejected Christ, God has used their rejection as an opportunity to bless all of us Gentiles. But this blessing has not come for our sake, rather, it has come for their sake. For God is utilizing our salvation as Gentiles, as individuals who have received the eschatologically promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit, to provoke them to jealousy so that they will see the blessings of Abraham upon us who believe by faith, so that apostate Israel might be saved.

But Paul continues his argument... if the Jewish rejection of the Jesus has brought about such an awesome blessing for the Gentiles, what will be the result of their conversion?

Romans 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Paul here anticipates an awesome blessing being released in this world through the conversion of the Jew. Why? Because they were called to be nothing less than a blessing to this world from the beginning! Abraham was told that in his seed all the world would be blessed. While that ultimately has its fulfillment found in Christ, it is not exclusive of the rest of Abraham's descendants. For Moses told Israel that they were called to be a nation of priests... a nation of people who administered the blessings of God, not just for a temporary dispensation, but rather, forever. For the callings of God are without repentance!

So, what will be this greater blessing that the conversion of the Jew will bring about across the world? Well Paul goes onto say:

Romans 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, [u][b]what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?[/u][/b]

In other words, Paul is saying there will be no resurrection of the dead apart from the conversion of the Jews. Paul then goes on to say: you want proof of this?

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of of dough is holy, the lump also...

Paul says don't think the work of God in regard to Israel has been cut off. For at the present time there is a remnant of believing Jews who represent a speck of leaven that will eventually leaven the whole lump of dough. Thus, we know that He who began a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. Eventually, the whole lump will be leavened.

You see, our great and blessed hope is dependent upon this conversion of the Jewish people. But this great conversion cannot happen according to Bible prophecy unless there is at first a corrupt people to return to the land of Israel. Their returning there presently is not so that they can claim the land that God has given them. Rather, it is to bring them to become a giant melting pot for the world, by which all nations will be provoked to deal with the Jews in Jerusalem.

There will be another holocaust as a result. Zechariah says two thirds of those in the land will perish! But as Christ said, those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise none would be saved. But a third will be brought through the God's refining fire in the last days, and that third will be saved! And this refining and conversion of the Jews must happen, for Christ said:

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!"

So, all of history awaits this time when one day every Jew will say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Then they shall see Him whom they pierced riding on the clouds, coming in glory, with ten thousands of His holy ones with Him!!!!

But there is a demonic force and doctrine that has been promoted for centuries, which will continue to escalate. It is an anti-Semitic spirit that is nothing short of anti-Christ. It says that God is done with the Jewish people and that they are no longer His, and that there is no promise to inherit the land. Such doctrines as replacement theology, such as promoted by some on this thread, have their origins in hell. Can't you sense the festering spirit of hatred in such posts? And why not? You could never expect the love of God to shine through in such words that violently oppose His own eternal purposes! Instead, a dark and demonic cynicism that scoffs at these notions.

I say this not to drive a wedge between brethren. Rather, I say this so that the eyes of our hearts might be opened. For I too have been such a person and held to such a theology. Then God removed the veil and showed that underneath it all, I had embraced an anti-Semitic spirit within me that cause me to embrace theological conclusion that didn't have their origins in God's word.

Just to add more thought-food for the discussion:

God gave the following promise to Jacob:

“A nation and a company (multitude/assembly) of nations shall be from you….” Gen 35:11

If God had given this promise to Abraham, we could have easily viewed the “company of nations” to include the descendents of Ishmael. If it had been given to Isaac we could have assumed that it referred to Esau’s descendents – the Edomites – those specifically outside the Old Covenant promise, but that would not make sense in view of Edom's history. However, God gave this promise to Jacob, whose sons – all of them - became progenitors of the ancient Israelites.

In this promise to Jacob, the word for “nations” here is synonymous with Gentile: [goy].

Another point: If I understand correctly, the Bibical term for "nation" does not refer to political entities, but people groups – ethnic/racial groups (which do not follow political boundaries).

So, KingJimmy, where are these other “nations” descended from Jacob? And how do they fit into the Covenant promise, as you understand it?

Wisevirgin said:

Ethnic Israel has been cursed forever never to bear fruit again.

"For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups [ie Jew and non Jew] into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments"

Wisevirgin, I see no reference to a curse here!

Diane

King Jimmy, I wonder if you could share your response to my earlier questions:

I apologize for not having done so already. Time has given me very little chance to respond as fully on this topic as I'd like. I will attempt to do so in the next day or so.

My question is, why is is that in history past they always had to be right with God as a whole to enter or abide in the land and yet this time they don't? If in history past this is what happened then why didn't we see a large revival of Jews turning to Christ right before/or at the same time they were restored to the land?

I believe you will find your answer in Ezekiel 36.

Tell me, how may times do you count "IF YOU WILL"?

Ezekiel 36

Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; [u]I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake[/u], which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And [b]I WILL[/b] sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when [b]I WILL[/b] be sanctified in you before their eyes. For [b]I WILL[/b] take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and [b]I WILL[/b] bring you into your own land. Then [b]I WILL[/b] sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, [b]I WILL[/b] cleanse you. A new heart also [b]I WILL[/b] give you, and a new spirit [b]I WILL[/b] put within you: and [b]I WILL[/b] take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and [b]I WILL[/b] give you an heart of flesh. And [b]I WILL[/b] put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and [b]I WILL[/b] be your God. [b]I WILL[/b] also save you from all your uncleannesses: and [b]I WILL[/b] call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And [b]I WILL[/b] multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that [[b]I WILL[/b] have cleansed you from all your iniquities [b]I WILL[/b] also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and [b]I WILL[/b] do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; [b]I WILL[/b] yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; [b]I WILL[/b]increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: [u]and they shall know that I am the LORD.[/u]

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

What is a Jew?

Time has given me very little chance to respond as fully on this topic as I'd like. I will attempt to do so in the next day or so.

Many thanks, KingJimmy and.. no rush! After all, if we are applying significant eschotologial claims to a specific people group, we should at least be able to define them accurately - and see if our definitions line up with Scriptural ones.

Diane

I WILL bring you into your own land.

The New Testament is filled with promises from the OT - and certainly pertaining to the New Covenant. Where is this land promise repeated in the New Testament: by Jesus? by Paul? others?

Diane

if I adopt Judaism as my religion, would I be considered a Jew?

Perhaps I should first ask: What is a Jew? Is this synonymous with the Biblical use of the term: Israelite?

Well, I'm not sure exactly what modern day rabbi's of the various schools would consider a Gentile convert today. I imagine that depending on the school of thought, it wouldn't be too different than the times of Christ. Back in the times of Christ and even before then, Judaism did allow for Gentile converts, so that they could observe most of the law with a few restrictions. But this "mixed multitude" or "the stranger in your midst" while embraced as part of the community of those who worshiped God still had walls put up that kept them to some degree, out.

The term "Jew" appears to have its origins in and around the time of the Babylonian exile. It was a term coined to designate those who came from the overthrown kingdom of Judah. "Jew" being a modified version of "Judah." And of course, the people located in the kingdom and land of Judah were mostly those who could trace their genealogical lineage back to the tribe of Judah, who was one of the sons of Jacob (Israel), who was the son Isaac, who was the son of Abraham.

"Jew" is therefore an ethnic/racial/national term. But, because of the covenant that God entered into with the patriarchs and all their descendants, it also embraces a religious dimension within that ethnic/racial/national identification. It is possible to be a Jew apart from any ethnic association. Likewise, it is possible to be a Jew apart from any religious associations. Sometimes it will embrace both categories. Context is the determining factor.

Now when we talk about the covenants made with the patriarchs, and the one established through Moses, and the one established by Christ, we must understand that these covenants were made specifically with the ethnic/racial/national Jew. These are what Paul calls, Jews according to the flesh. To them, he says, belong the adoption as sons, the covenants, the giving of the law, and glory.

Some people are surprised though, when one mentions this, that the New Covenant is included in the covenants which are given to ethnic/racial/national Israel. But if one closely examines passages like Jeremiah, one will see that God says He will even make the New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Some wrongly interpret the New Covenant as having been made with the Church or the Gentiles. But Jeremiah specifically says the covenant is made with the houses of Israel and Judah, which were two real people/political groups, who were literal descendants of the patriarchs. Some dispensationalists read this passage equally wrong and say the New Covenant is yet future. Both views are wrong. For Christ has already established the New Covenant with the Jewish people. Indeed, as the prophets would say, Christ Himself is the covenant. Many simply have yet to come and embrace that covenant yet, for they have not applied the blood of that covenant over the door posts of their lives. But be assured, the New Covenant has been made with them, and them alone. It is in effect whether they acknowledge it or not. The benefits of that covenant though, they do not enjoy and will not enjoy, until they embrace Christ.

However, we as Gentiles through our faith and union in Christ are made "joint-heirs" with Christ of the promises/covenants established with the people of Israel. Not only that, but the dividing wall that existed through the Law of Moses has been torn down so that we can fully embrace our identity in Christ with national Israel. Thus, through faith in Christ, we are made fellow citizens of the nation (Ephesians 2), and are embraced fully as the people of God along with the Jew. Isaiah anticipated this, saying of the Gentiles, "I will take some of them for priests and for Levites" (Isaiah 66:21)

For those who like to point the finger at the Jews ...

When the Jews turned away from God to serve other gods, sudden destruction came upon them. When they ceased to obey the Law given them, even the Law of sin and death (for through the Law death took liberty to have it's way in us), they suffered tribulation falling into God's hands.

Now, what about us today?
As Paul said, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

We who are called Christians, if indeed we are born of God, how do we stand? Have we kept the faith? Or, do we receive nothing from the Lord because we doubt; being unstable in ALL our ways? Have we obeyed the Law given us, even the Law of Christ; which gives Life (for through the Spirit, God may have His way in us); that is, to love one another even as Christ so loved us and gave Himself?

When the Jews were disobedient their nation suffered. When we Christians are disobedient the whole world, including the Jews, suffer for our crimes. We have not been faithful in provoking the Jews to jealousy so that they might turn to Jesus and proclaim Him, "the Son of the living God!" Neither have we been faithful witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth.

We are powerless people where we replace the witness of the Spirit for the witness of methods.

KingJimmy, thank you for you response. I’m glad that you pointed out the origin of the term “Jew” - to clarify the fact that Abraham was not a Jew.

Still, there is an OT promise to BOTH Houses: the house of Israel and the House of Judah. But, where is the House of “Israel” now?

In response to my questions: “What is a Jew?” or “Could I become a Jew if I converted to Judaism,” you said,

Well, I'm not sure exactly what modern day rabbi's of the various schools would consider a Gentile convert today.

If it cannot be determined if I would be a legitimate Jew if I adopted Judaism, then, how can we speak for other Jews. After all, many are the descendents of proselytes into Judaism over the years – no small number. Not only that, what about those who leave the religion - like my niece and nephew, born to Jewish mother?

I have more thoughts, but will leave that till I hear a response to my question regarding NT covenant land promises.

Diane

In response to my questions: “What is a Jew?” or “Could I become a Jew if I converted to Judaism,” you said,

Well, I'm not sure exactly what modern day rabbi's of the various schools would consider a Gentile convert today.

PROSELYTE
PROSELYTE - pros'-e-lit (proselutos, from proserchomai, "I approach"): Found 4 times in the New Testament. In the Septuagint it often occurs as the translation of ger. The Hebrew verb gur means "to sojourn"; ger accordingly means a stranger who has come to settle in the land, as distinguished on the one hand from 'ezrach, "a homeborn" or "native," and on the other from nokhri or ben-nekhar, which means a stranger who is only passing through the country. Yet it is to be noted that in 2 Ch 2:17 those of the native tribes still living in the land as Amorites, Hittites, etc., are also called gerim. In two places, (Ex 12:19; Isa 14:1) the Septuagint uses g(e)ioras, which is derived from giyor, the Aramaic equivalent for ger. Septuagint uses paroikos (the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew toshabh, "a settler") for ger when Israel or the triarchs are indicated (Gen 15:13; 23:4; Ex 2:22; 18:3; Dt 23:7; 1 Ch 29:15; Ps 39:12; 119:19; Jer 14:8), and in a few other cases. In Talmudical literature ger always stands for proselyte in the New Testament sense, i.e. a Gentile who has been converted to Judaism. Onkelos, who was himself a proselyte, always translates the word in this way.

Proselyte
is used in the LXX. for "stranger" (1 Chr. 22:2), i.e., a comer to Palestine; a sojourner in the land (Ex. 12:48; 20:10; 22:21), and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism. There were such converts from early times (Isa. 56:3; Neh. 10:28; Esther 8:17). The law of Moses made specific regulations regarding the admission into the Jewish church of such as were not born Israelites (Ex. 20:10; 23:12; 12:19, 48; Deut. 5:14; 16:11, 14, etc.). The Kenites, the Gibeonites, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites were thus admitted to the privileges of Israelites. Thus also we hear of individual proselytes who rose to positions of prominence in Israel, as of Doeg the Edomite, Uriah the Hittite, Araunah the Jebusite, Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah and Ebedmelech the Ethiopians.
In the time of Solomon there were one hundred and fifty-three thousand six hundred strangers in the land of Israel (1 Chr. 22:2; 2 Chr. 2:17, 18). And the prophets speak of the time as coming when the strangers shall share in all the privileges of Israel (Ezek. 47:22; Isa. 2:2; 11:10; 56:3-6; Micah 4:1). Accordingly, in New Testament times, we read of proselytes in the synagogues, (Acts 10:2, 7; 13:42, 43, 50; 17:4; 18:7; Luke 7:5). The "religious proselytes" here spoken of were proselytes of righteousness, as distinguished from proselytes of the gate.
The distinction between "proselytes of the gate" (Ex. 20:10) and "proselytes of righteousness" originated only with the rabbis. According to them, the "proselytes of the gate" (half proselytes) were not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the Mosaic ceremonial law. They were bound only to conform to the so-called seven precepts of Noah, viz., to abstain from idolatry, blasphemy, bloodshed, uncleaness, the eating of blood, theft, and to yield obedience to the authorities. Besides these laws, however, they were required to abstain from work on the Sabbath, and to refrain from the use of leavened bread during the time of the Passover.
The "proselytes of righteousness", religious or devout proselytes (Acts 13:43), were bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy, and were members of the synagogue in full communion.
The name "proselyte" occurs in the New Testament only in Matt. 23:15; Acts 2:10; 6:5; 13:43. The name by which they are commonly designated is that of "devout men," or men "fearing God" or "worshipping God."

R.G. Benjamin

My question is, why is is that in history past they always had to be right with God as a whole to enter or abide in the land and yet this time they don't? If in history past this is what happened then why didn't we see a large revival of Jews turning to Christ right before/or at the same time they were restored to the land?

I believe you will find your answer in Ezekiel 36.
Tell me, how may times do you count "IF YOU WILL"?

Ezekiel 36

Zechariah 12 also suggests Israel's restoration before turning to Christ.

PassingThru

[color=000099]
Zec 12:1 The burden of the Word of Jehovah for Israel, says Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the peoples all around, and it shall also be against Judah in the siege against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, says Jehovah, I will strike every horse with terror, and his rider with madness. And I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The people of Jerusalem shall be my strength in Jehovah of Hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire among cut grain. And they shall devour all the peoples all around, on the right hand and on the left hand. And Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her place, in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 Jehovah also shall save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the people of Jerusalem may not be magnified above Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day Jehovah shall defend around the people of Jerusalem. And it will be, he who is feeble among them at that day shall be like David; and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of Jehovah before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 [b]And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born.[/b]
Zec 12:11 In that day shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, each family apart; the family of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart
Zec 12:13 the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 all the families who remain, each family apart and their wives apart.
[/color]

Still, there is an OT promise to BOTH Houses: the house of Israel and the House of Judah. But, where is the House of “Israel” now?

The "house of Israel" formally speaking, was the northern kingdom that was comprised of the ten northern tribes who did not want anything to do with the house of David (Judah) after the split that ripped the kingdom in two after the death of Solomon. Many of this citizens of this kingdom, if you recall, went into exile in 722 BC after being defeated by the Assyrian army. The southern kingdom, Judah, would later suffer the same fate when the Babylonians finally overthrew Jerusalem after a series of sieges in 586 BC.

Little is known exactly what happened to most of the tribes that went into exile in 722 BC. Many of the people were killed, and many more were scattered throughout the Assyrian kingdom (which would later be overthrown by the Babylonians). After Babylon fell to the Persians, and the Jews were finally allowed to return home, so records the Bible, it was mostly a small number of people from the house of Judah that returned to rebuild the fallen city of Jerusalem.

Though of course, it can be assumed that individuals from the house of Israel had escaped the grasps of the Assyrians and settled in the land of Judah. It can also be assumed that when Jerusalem was rebuilt after the Babylonians fell, that many of those who were descendants of the Assyrian exile returned with them over the next couple hundred years. For individuals like Paul, who was of the tribe of Benjamin, appeared on the scene within the land. When the political rift between the two nations came to an end through the exile, "Israel" began to be viewed holistically again as a people.

Now, when we read Jeremiah made his prophecy concerning the New Covenant being made with the houses of Israel and Judah, we are to understand that he uses these terms representing the descendants of the individuals who were part of both kingdoms... that is the Hebrew people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are "Israel according to the flesh," to whom belong the covenants... both old and new.

I have more thoughts, but will leave that till I hear a response to my question regarding NT covenant land promises.

A troubling question indeed that many have pondered. Indeed, it seems the OT obsession with the land is almost entirely absent within the NT writings. Indeed, there is very little data to point to within the text of the NT itself that even talks about the land.

However, there are some references.

For example, in Matthew 5 Jesus says, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Now, "the earth" in the Greek can also be accurately translated "the land." And given the historical context in which this beatitude was given, such makes it all the more an appropriate translation. For it was at that time the hope of many of the Jews living in a land under Roman occupation that they would one day raise up in might and power and overthrow the occupying enemy. But Christ says quite the opposite. Instead of using force to conquer, the land would be "inherited" (and thus, given to them by God) through meekness.

But perhaps this is too vague and too much of a stretch for the satisfaction of some. Thus, we can also turn to the verse quoted earlier in Romans 15:8 where it says that Christ came "to confirm the promises given to the fathers." So, instead of annulling those promises, setting them aside, or spiritually "fulfilling" them, Christ instead "confirmed" those promises given to them. The confirmation of those promises shows their validity, and shows the New Testament anticipates a still future fulfillment.

Indeed, Paul himself still anticipates Israel's fulfillment when he says, "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [u]fulfillment[/u] be!" (Romans 11:12) So, instead of seeing all these things somehow modified to exclude a future inheritance of the land as promised to the fathers is to err. For neither Christ nor the Church is the fulfillment of Israel. Israel will not be "fulfilled" until the natural branches be grafted in again, and they inherit the land during the Millennium. Their fulfillment is still yet future.

Furthermore, Hebrews 11 takes up briefly the notion of the land. It says in verse 8, "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance;" You see, the text says Abraham went out to the land he himself was to receive for an inheritance. For he lived in "[u]the land of promise[/u]" as a foreigner with his sons, "fellow heirs of [u]the [b]same[/b] promise.[/u]" (v. 9) This land isn't just for their children's children's children's children. Rather, it is for [b]them.[/b] Verse 13 tells us "these died in faith without receiving the promises" but "welcomed them from a distance."

The patriarchs never did receive the land God promised directly to [b]them[/b]. But they looked forward to the time in which they would. [u]Such goes far beyond the settlement of the land in the Jordan by Joshua and the twelve tribes. [b]Such anticipates nothing less than a receiving of those promises by means of resurrection![/b][/u] For such men seek a heavenly city. That is, not some pie in the sky heaven that is above the clouds like so many Christians wrongly think of. Rather, it is a heavenly city that they looked forward to because God would be the architect of it all!!! He would be its builder!

For, when the resurrection happens at the end of this age, where do you think Christ will reign from? Well, the Mormons think Utah. But God knows they are wrong. Rather, it is just as Zechariah says, God will be the king of the whole earth. And where will that reign center around? In Jerusalem.

Why Jerusalem? For that is the land that was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all their descendants. And who will be there at the great supper, and where will that supper be held in which we will drink wine anew with Christ? Matthew 8:11 says, "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;" Where are they coming from? East and West. If they are coming from somewhere, where are they going? Could it be Jerusalem?!?! By God, I think it is!

And to conclude, what more could seal the deal than to read the final chapters of Revelation, the book regarding things in the end, and see that everything centers around Jerusalem and the land which God had promised the patriarchs in the book of beginnings, Genesis?

I hope this satisfies your inquest.

The only thing that came to my mind as I read your post is some of the other posts I read seem to want to interpret that Israel is out of any covenant or promise. Also want to discount Israel being a player in anything in the future.

Indeed, such is the nature of replacement theology. It has totally written Israel out of the picture. In my opinion, the same spirit that motivates a theology that wants to see Israel entirely removed from the picture is the same spirit that has fueled past holocausts, and will fuel yet future holocausts. Both have at their center, the removal of the Jew from the equation. One is through theological means (however well meaning). The other is through violent force (however well meaning).

That is not so accurate an exposition of Zechariah 14, in my opinion ... but I did like some ... some, of the insights Matthew Henry had. Thank you for mentioning Ephesians 2:14 it is beautiful. Reminds me of that lovely song "He is our Peace, who has broken down every wall ... cast all your cares on Him for He cares for you." A simple song to make glad a child's heart.

For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1).

but let us not overlook the very next verse ...

Zech 14:3
Then the LORD will go forth and fight against [b]those nations[/b], as when He fights on a day of battle.
(those nations which were gathered against Jerusalem.)

Zech 14:12
Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war [b]against[/b] Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

When exactly did this happen historically to the Romans?

If we are going to commentary these verses with historical consistencies then we ought to take them all together as the Scripture presents them.

Zech 13
7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered:
[b](As Jesus said, this was fulfilled with His crucifixion.)[/b]
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Hm, let us consider here...
Verse 7 - the crucifixion and disciples scattered
Verse 8 - the falling away of many followers
Verse 9 - the remaining 120 purified by Holy Ghost Fire in the upper room.

Zech 14:8
And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

If my back were to a wall and I had to put my finger down on what these verses are referring to, historically; I would say it is when the Children of the Pentecost were scattered by Saul of Tarsus. It is a fitting parallel. I guess it is also safe to say the Roman invasion of AD70 had the same result of further scattering the Spirit-filled Christians to carry the Gospel out further and further to every nation.

How can we read "living waters" and think anything contrary to the baptism and/or fullness of the Holy Spirit? For he who believes in Christ Jesus, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."

Zech 14
16. Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain [b]on them[/b].
18. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall [b]on them[/b]; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

And so it is to all who do not share with us this blessed Joy of Salvation and the Forgiveness of Sins in the Lord's Feast. They shall not receive the floodwaters of heaven, even the Holy Spirit of Living Waters. And truly there is no greater curse than to be separated from the [i]Eternal Life-giving Love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts[/i].

(Not to be confused with the "Love of God" -- I am specifically saying the love that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Which is all the difference between knowing about God and knowing Him intimately.)

As for the plagues of rotting flesh and eye sockets and tongues: I do not take these necessarily as physical happenings, but rather, soulish conditions of the flesh. Ie. "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life."

You might consider me amiss in writing it this way. But at least I have left the flow of Scripture intact. I do not claim this as revelation but, indeed, a fitting parallel.

Response that I was requested to post on the forum. I also added a few extra comments. This is directed to a previous question a page back on the list.

I WILL bring you into your own land.

The New Testament is filled with promises from the OT - and certainly pertaining to the New Covenant. Where is this land promise repeated in the New Testament: by Jesus? by Paul? others?

The Promised Land, even Canaan, is a type&shadow of the kingdom of Christ; that is, the Promise of Abraham -- Pentecost -- the indwelling Spirit of Christ and the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The kingdom of God is neither meat nor drink (it is not of this world for this world has no part in Jesus - John 14:30) but is Joy, Peace, and Love in the Holy Ghost.

So you can say Jesus Himself is the Promise of the Father. And as Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

In relations to the 5th Commandment.
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Paul wrote it this way to the Ephesians, Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

If we raise this up in perspective: God is our Heavenly Father and our mother / brother / sister is the one who does the will of the Father. And, that we may have prolonged natural life (that is, fullness of days, a promise of blessing) in the land, even the earth; which the Lord gives to the meek. If we raise up this perspective it points to eternal life in God's kingdom. And, as Peter wrote, in his 2nd letter, the entrance into the eternal kingdom shall be abundantly supplied to us in Christ Jesus; if, indeed, He is ours and we are being increasingly transformed and conformed into His image.

It is an overwhelming revelation to see how the "straight and narrow path" shall be abundantly supplied -- that is, Jesus Christ -- who is the Way shall be given in fullness of measure. Tell me I'm the only one that gets excited about stuff like this! :)

It is also of note that I should have stumbled upon this excerpt from one of F.B. Meyer's sermons, just before reading the question, called "And What is the Land?"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=18540

Any specific reference to the promise of [b]physical land[/b] inheritance ... well, I am not so interested in that. For all of you End Times scholars it might be of note. But I would rather be bearing fruit in and out of season than discerning which season it is. These are the last days, that is good enough for me, I am convinced.

It is just as dangerous to say "the Lord shall not return until ..." as it is to say "the Lord shall return this day ..."

Acts 1
6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1).

This is clearly ignoring what Zechariah says will happen. For Zechariah says that the Lord will intervene in this situation and save Jerusalem. It says that the Jews will come to a national repentance recognizing the error of their ways for having pierced the Son of God. Furthermore, Rome does not equal "all nations." Rome was merely one nation. Zechariah's prophecy was in no way fulfilled in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad. For the Lord did not intervene in that time.

and they inherit the land during the Millennium

Hebrews 11 takes up briefly the notion of the land. It says in verse 8, "By faith Abraham,

Can this refer to earthly Israel or Jerusalem?

For such men seek a heavenly city. That is, not some pie in the sky heaven that is above the clouds

thank you for mentioning Ephesians 2:14 it is beautiful.

From my experience, in discussions regarding Israel’s future, this Eph. reference tends to be conspicuously missing – by both camps: those who believe in a special land promise for Israel and by those who view Jews as forever cursed.

This thread portrays two vastly different theological camps – and I might add, one that has been potentially very divisive in the Christian community. One side ultimately leads towards demonizing Jews (anti-Semitism), the other towards idolizing them (a form of denial). So you have (potentially) either prejudice or favouritism.

The wall of hostility referred to in Ephesians is not unlike the wall we see here. How might Ephesians 2 resolve this division today?

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.Eph. 2:14-22

PS: "one new man" is also translated as: one new humanity, one new race... etc.

Diane

Quote:

and they inherit the land during the Millennium

Where is the Biblical warrant for this?

Well, such is evident from a combination of passages. Assuming you believe in a literal millennial reign of Christ, then it is not very difficult to see that fulfillment in the already quoted passages from Zechariah which talks about the final holocaust of the Jews, their conversion, and the return of Christ.

Quote:

Hebrews 11 takes up briefly the notion of the land. It says in verse 8, "By faith Abraham,

Notion? Are we assuming what is not explicitely clear? What about Heb. 11:10, as WiseVirgin pointed out: “By faith Abraham…was looking FORWARD to the city with foundations whose architect and builder was God.”

By "notion" I simply meant the concept of it is in the text. I personally find it explicitly clear. It says Abraham walked around in the land promised to him. It says that while he did not receive what was promised, he welcomed it from a distance by faith. Abraham roamed around in a tent, something that is transitional and portable in nature, without attempting to make a permanent settlement by building a city. Instead, Abraham looked forward to a day in which he would receive a city (which stands in contrast to a tent) that God Himself would build, in that very land of promise. He would only receive it though, by his own personal resurrection from the dead.

Can this refer to earthly Israel or Jerusalem?

It refers to the time when after the resurrection when God will establish the promises here on earth. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." Such a prayer as the Lord taught us is much more than praying for God's blessings and provisions to be released in the here and now. It is inclusive of that of course. But such a prayer as the Lord taught us to pray is eschatological in nature, which looks forward to the time when God's kingdom will be established here on earth with Christ's second advent, with Jerusalem as his capital.

I repost the scripture WiseVirgin referred to: “And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem coming down from out of heaven from God.” Rev. 21:2 But, note that this verse follows verse one, which refers to a new heaven and earth replacing the old.

Indeed, we do look forward ultimately to a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem. For we are ultimately looking for a new creation altogether. That new creation has begun in us, and will manifest itself entirely after the Great White Throne.

From my experience, in discussions regarding Israel’s future, this Eph. reference tends to be conspicuously missing – by both camps: those who believe in a special land promise for Israel and by those who view Jews as forever cursed.

Ephesians 2:14-15 simply teaches that the distinctions and barriers established by the law have been torn down. Thus, Jew and Gentile alike, in Christ, can partake fully in God's blessings and promises. Such is the consistent expectation of the Old Testament prophets.

One side ultimately leads towards demonizing Jews (anti-Semitism), the other towards idolizing them (a form of denial).

There is no idolizing of the Jews here. You may get that in Zionists favoring churches. Folks like John Hagee practically worship the Jews and act like they can do no wrong. For they see the present state of Israel as having the blessing of God on it. When in reality, the Jews have returned to the land of Israel so that ultimately the issues regarding the last days might be fully manifest. They are there for their own judgment and for the judgment of this world. All nations shall be gathered to Jerusalem one day for war. Such could not happen without the Jew in the land.

One side ultimately leads towards demonizing Jews (anti-Semitism), the other towards idolizing them (a form of denial). So you have (potentially) either prejudice or favouritism.

Here is my general rule of thumb: Your neighbor is everyone Christ died for.

In terms of what Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father."

This is no different than every single person who is not born-again of the Spirit.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1 John 3:8.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jew, Greek, Gentile, all men, all women, all nations, etc. are dead in sins and desire to do the things of their father the devil.

I do not boast (favouritism) in the Jew -- I boast in the Lord, who has loved the Jew.

I do not curse (prejudice) the Jew -- I curse the one who turns the Jew away from Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2 is beautiful for many reasons.

(since you already posted verses 14-22)
Ephesians 2:1-13
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
[and verses 14-22]

For He Himself is our peace! Ah, we have been given the Gospel of Reconciliation (the Ministry of Reconciliation) because we have Peace with God through the cross of Christ!

We were dead and afar-off in darkness but now by the Blood of Jesus we are washed clean and are brought near to the Father! We had no fellowship with the Light while we were darkness. But now we who are made sons of light draw near to our Father who dwells in unapproachable light because Christ has called us unto Himself.

Just as the One "who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations."

Where first God was with the Jews and those who were joined to them in the OT. Yet now the barrier is cast down and God is testifying, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

2 Corinthians 5
16. Therefore [b]from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh[/b]; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So also was, "the veil of the temple torn in two from top to bottom."

Where first only the High Priest was given access through the veil and then only once a year for the forgiveness of sins and not without blood. Now Christ Jesus Himself is our High Priest who offered up His blood through the Holy Spirit to the Father.

(Read all of Hebrews if you want more of this amazingly good stuff.)

What am I saying then ... God came to the Jew first and then He came to the Gentile. Not because the Jew chose God but because God chose the Jew first for Himself.

I do not consider the Jew above any man who is condemned to eternal hell. Nor do I consider any man born of God to be above those who are perishing. We are nothing of our own but it is Jesus our Lord who has loved us and called us out of darkness into light! By His Grace we are made the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, not of our self! In Him shall we boast!

Pray for all men that none should perish! Let the Jew and all men be reconciled to God in Christ Jesus, the Saviour and Redeemer of us all!

Hi, KingJimmy, I will share a few thoughts in response to your post. First, though, I post an article from the [url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668648537&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull]Jerusalem Post [/url], which reports concerns over racial mixing. There are indeed many non-Jews in Israel. They are needed for the genetic pool. Yet rabbis are disputing over the issue that many who convert to Judaism and marry do not remain devout to the laws and rituals of Judaism. This article underscores to me the fact that an attempt to preserve religious/racial identity is a fuzzy and also impossible task. It predisposes the society to typical historical abusive religious control.

Israel (not just me) is struggling over the question “What is a Jew?” This makes biblical application tedious, at best.

Regarding the belief that the Jews will be converted during the Millennium, King Jimmy responded:

Well, such is evident from a combination of passages. Assuming you believe in a literal millennial reign of Christ, then it is not very difficult to see that fulfillment…

Actually, I prefer not to draw a massive doctrine from merely one biblical reference in a book that is highly symbolic. I realize that doctrines can be formulated by amalgamating a series of verses. Yet, there is also the risk of mixing imagination with presupposition.

At this point, I think we can agree that in the NT there are no explicite references to apocalyptic land promises. Nor can we with certainly establish the idea of a temporary utopian state prior to the final fulfilment of prophesy. There is no explicit Biblical warrant for a “second chance” (no purgatory, either!).

As we all know, any political or racial entity who believes it has special land rights is fodder for conflict –as history proves. Add to that modern political interests … and…

From my perspective regarding Israel, I am deeply concerned that many in our world have adopted a religious/political/racial view that is like dynamite powder. For sure, in these days we need to guard against the practise of eisegesis (bringing our believes INTO the text) and tighten up our exegesis!

Thus, Jew and Gentile alike, in Christ, can partake fully in God's blessings and promises.

How might such a study address present day conflict, including the one reported in the Jerusalem Post?

blessings,
Diane

Jew, Greek, Gentile, all men, all women, all nations, etc. are dead in sins and desire to do the things of their father the devil.

If this is indeed so, then the same solution offered in Christ through redemption should be sufficient. So why, I wonder do many feel the need to try hard to maintain two distinct people groups withing the kingdom - esp when many Biblical references would refute that - and (it seems) we cannot really define "Jew" accurately?

What does Eph. 2 mean by "ONE new man"
(humanity/race)?

What is implied by the "wall of hostility" being torn down?

Diane

[b]The Pre-Regathering of Israel in Unbelief[/b]

The idea of Israel returning and being established in the land while in a state of unbelief is only and absolutely drawn from Scripture. First of all, consider that Israel as a nation has never once existed in a state of true covenantal obedience to God. As a people, they have not only broken the [i]covenant of God[/i] which they bound themselves to under solemn oath (Exodus 24:7-8), but they have also rejected the [i]God of the covenant[/i] who alone is the wellspring of life and the very enabler of the covenant. Their numerous captivities never once produced the change of heart that is required for them to be the inheritance God intends them to be: a nation [i]of[/i] Him, and [i]through[/i] Him and [i]to[/i] Him. Consider the results of the Holocaust: Jewish sentiments after 1/3 of them had just gone through one of the most appalling sagas of history was not "God, we repent", but "Never again!" And not a "never again because God will be with us", but because "we won't ever allow something like that to happen again. Our own arm will see to that." Not the disposition of contrition that we would expect necessary for Israel to return to the land after 2000 years! But they have returned. What does this mean in the light of Scripture?

The solution to the Jewish question is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Israel has been blind ever since they became a people; they have never truly known the God of their covenant, nor have they understood their election by grace. [i]"Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you."[/i] (Deut. 9:24) What is required for them to turn to God in spirit and in truth? What is determined by God to bring this about? Nothing less than the second coming of Jesus Christ following the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble.

Jeremiah 30 and 31, which have to do with this event of tribulation and revelation, begins first with a command for Jeremiah to write the prophecy down in a book and seal it for the "days to come". I believe that those "days" refer to ours today. Such language signifies an extended period of time between the giving of the subsequent prophecy and its fulfillment, seeing past the Babylonian captivity and into the latter days (for none of the Jeremiah 30-31 prophesies were fulfilled in the Babylonian time; Jacob's trouble, Israel's regeneration, etc.). But what does God say immediately [i]after[/i] this sealing (30:2-3), and immediately [i]before[/i] the verses concerning Jacob's trouble (30:5-7)?

[i]"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."[/i] (Jeremiah 30:3)

Here you'll find no language describing repentance, humility or a godly return to the land. There is no sense of Israel returning to an everlasting possession, as in Isaiah 60:21. It's just a fact. God is stating that they shall return to their land in the latter days immediately prior to the great tribulation.

Notice another, or second, regathering prophesied in 30:10, [i]"Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid."[/i] AFTER the great tribulation, when Israel shall AGAIN be scattered from the land into the Gentile nations, as the Scriptures have foretold, Christ shall appear in glory and will gather them back to Himself and to His land. [i]"He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock."[/i] (Jeremiah 31:10) Then, and only then, will Israel stand before God in bright shining righteousness, a nation redeemed from death by the blood of Jesus Christ, established in her covenant by her covenant keeping God. Thus there are two regatherings spoken of here in this one chapter: a return to the land in unbelief, and a return to the land in grace. A return in preparation for Christ's return, and a return in consequence of Christ's return.

Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 should cause every Christian believer to rejoice and lift up their heads for their redemption draws nigh. It is one of the greatest signs of the times, and though there are many very evil days ahead of us, whatever darkness there shall be is but a momentary light affliction in comparison to the weight of glory that shall be revealed when our Lord Jesus shall come. Praise God!

For Christ to come, first antichrist must revealed. For antichrist to revealed, first the temple must be built. For the temple to built, first Israel must be a nation again. That happened in 1948. When will the temple be built? Let us watch and pray, and occupy ourselves in preaching the gospel to every creature, that we may be found in Him, doing His will, patient in faith, waiting in hope.

http://timothyministry.blogspot.com/2008/05/pre-regathering-of-israel-in-unbelief.html

The distinctions of two groups are essentially like this ...

The "Jews" and "Everybody else". In the OT God chose Israel as His own people.

This obviously being a type&shadow of those who would be born of God's Spirit in the NT.

So the confusion is that the OT type&shadow of God's people, being the Jew, are still round about. And the NT God's people, being the true Christians, are also round about at the same time.

One way of looking at it is like this. The OT Jew is comparable to the physical world. Being the people of the Law of ordinances.

The NT Christian (whether Jew or Greek or whosoever) is comparable to the soul. Being that we are no longer under the Law of the flesh but rather under the Law of the Spirit of Life. It is not a question anymore of "Did you murder?" (fruit of sin) but "Do you hate your brother?" (root of sin - the beatitudes).

And at the Resurrection those who are caught up shall be comparable to the spirit; "for they shall be like Him."

It is not a confusion of Jews and Christians both being in the Kingdom, since we are talking about Christ's kingdom (where there is no distinction according to the flesh). But rather the "physical" kingdom that the Jews are still looking forward to. As when they tried to establish Jesus as King over them.

Jesus had other plans and established His kingdom in Spirit and power.

-----------------------------------

Eph 2
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, [...]

Group 1: The commonwealth of Israel, that is, the children of promise; God's chosen people.

(This does not necessarily mean the "Jew". This is more accurately speaking of the children of faith, not the children of heredity. Even my next-door neighbor is a "Jew" but he doesn't believe in God. So how can he truly be part of the commonwealth of Israel? He cannot, for he is not a child of faith.)

Group 2: Aliens and strangers; foreigners, having no hope and without God in the world.

John 10:16
And [b]other sheep[/b] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be [b]one fold[/b], and [b]one shepherd[/b].

Eph 2
14. [...] and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [b]even the law of commandments contained in ordinances[/b]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The "wall of hostility" = "law of commandments contained in ordinances"

The Law of sin and death has been fulfilled in Christ. We are, thus, no longer under that Law for righteousness sake. But we are under the Law of the Spirit of Christ, whereby ...
Ephesians 2
4. God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us [b]together with Christ[/b], (by grace ye are saved;)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

You see, Galatians 3:11, Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Since no one is justified by the Law - normally this is referred to as "hostility".

----------------------------

Colossians 3
9. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10. And have put on the [b]new man[/b], which is renewed in knowledge [b]after the image of him that created him[/b]:
11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: [b]but Christ is all, and in all[/b].

Let us use this comparison to better illustrate.
Ephesians 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and [u]they two[/u] shall be [b]one flesh[/b].

In this manner they, a man and wife, shall be joined into "one flesh". Easy to understand.

Eph 2
15. for to make in himself [u]of two[/u] [b]one new man[/b], so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in [u]one body[/u] [b][u]by the cross[/u][/b], having slain the enmity thereby.

In this manner both, the children of promise and the children of unrighteousness, may be joined as "one new man" in "one body".

The new man being the Spirit of Christ born in each individual and the one body being the corporate body of believers, such as the Church of Acts: "These all with one mind."

Or as one of my favorite Scriptures says,
Psalm 133
For there ( where brethren dwell together in unity ) the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Or again, Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

It is a beautiful thing.

Did this help clear up your questions?

Eli Barnabas quoted;

Notice another, or second, regathering prophesied in 30:10, "Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid." AFTER the great tribulation, when Israel shall AGAIN be scattered from the land into the Gentile nations, as the Scriptures have foretold, Christ shall appear in glory and will gather them back to Himself and to His land. "He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock." (Jeremiah 31:10) Then, and only then, will Israel stand before God in bright shining righteousness, a nation redeemed from death by the blood of Jesus Christ, established in her covenant by her covenant keeping God. Thus there are two regatherings spoken of here in this one chapter: a return to the land in unbelief, and a return to the land in grace. A return in preparation for Christ's return, and a return in consequence of Christ's return.

Amen to your whole article brother!

the apostles said to the Lord Jesus right before He departed, "Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" The Lord answered them explaining that it was not for them to know the time for that, but that in was in the Fathers hands.

blessings bonni :-)