Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by J. C. Wenger

Nonresistant and Nonpolitical

Part of the vision which captured the hearts and minds of the original Anabaptists of Zurich, Switzerland, some four centuries ago was the separation of church and state.

This meant among other things that the founders of our brotherhood held that the church ought to be wholly detached from the state. The Gospel should be preached "freely," not under the control or even protection of the state, for the state ought not to take a position of favoring one faith and sup pressing or persecuting the adherents of other views. Church and state were to be utterly separate in personnel, means of entrance, function, means, and end. The church was to be made up of the converted and committed disciples of the Lord Jesus, while the state served all men by maintaining law and order. The state is entered by the natural birth, but the church by the new birth. The state employs law and the threat of force, while the church relies on the power of the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

It is the function of the church to proclaim the Word of God, to win the lost to Christ, and to nurture those who turn to Him. It is the function of the state to restrain evildoers and to assume some responsibility for what might be called the "natural life" of its citizens. The only sanction of the church beyond brotherly rebuke is the excommunication of the impenitent, while the state has weapons to curb the criminal, and may deprive him of his liberty. The head of the state is a mere man, while the Head of the church is none other than Jesus Christ. One corollary of this doctrine of separation of church and state is that the state as state has no voice in the control and direction of the church. The church must heed its own Head, Christ, and obey His Word, the sacred Scriptures.

The other corollary is a twofold one: (1) the church can not ask the state to turn aside from its role of promoting public order by demanding that it follow the ethic of the church; and (2) the church is nevertheless responsible to uphold before all men the will of God that men should live by love, and that justice should be administered in all human relationships. This first half of the second corollary means that for nonresistant Christians, any office in the state which involves the use of violence and the possibility of taking human life (constabulary, military, and magistracy-for the death penalty is sometimes imposed by judges) is not a possible option. Mennonites, have therefore historically felt unable to serve in those three areas, as police officers, as soldiers, and as judges who must administer the laws of the land, and who must even send criminals to the gallows.

The second half of the second corollary is the difficult one to apply in a modern democracy. Surely the church needs more than ever to give its witness against every form of injustice, whether it be against the maltreatment of the poor by the rich or the maltreatment of minorities by the majority. It is in proper order for individual Christians, for congregations, and for conferences to speak out in favor of justice and against all unrighteousness. This obligation is clear, and increasingly in recent decades our brotherhood has sought to be faithful in this area, especially through the General Conference.

Something else needs to be said at present, however, and it needs to be said clearly and emphatically. The central function of the church of Christ is not merely to try to abolish all forms of evil and injustice. The most basic function of the church is to proclaim the everlasting Gospel to the salvation of men and their gathering into the blessed fold of the redeemed. Our supreme guide here is the teaching and example of our Lord and His apostles. First-century Christianity was dynamic; it began an amazing transformation of human society-a transformation which turned the world right side up: but it did so not by political methods but by the faithful proclamation of the Word of God.

Many citizens cannot do any more than employ political methods, but the people of God can. They can use the radio and the pulpit; they can establish Sunday schools and mission stations; they can and must fulfill the function which only the church can fulfill. That function is to make Christ known. And as men come to know Christ, they will in turn be trans formed.

Society surely needs to be regenerated. But the regeneration it most needs can never be achieved by passing laws and taking political action. The only regeneration which will ever truly change men is individual regeneration. Christ's primary message today is therefore, LET THE CHURCH BE THE CHURCH!-

-J. C. Wenger.

From the GOSPEL HERALD, MARCH 15, 1966

Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by JESUS

Matthew 5:1-16
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: [2] And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
[13] Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 6:9-15
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. [14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are simply to do and teach what he has said and taught by HIS example.

pastorfrin wrote:
Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you,

But I say unto you....there we have the change from the old to the new....

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

I would like to know from scripture how you kill someone of your enemies as a soldier in an army and while you're doing it love them at the same time.

the whole thing falls if you dont accept the theology of martyrdom. I know the objections "what if someone attacks our nation" or if someone comes into my home, or if this or that happend.

What then?

By Gods grace we die.

I know all dont have that light but thats what i believe is right.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were [b]strangers and pilgrims on the earth.[/b]

If we are translated from this world to Jesus kingdom we dont belong in this world,

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So many Christian serve their nation and not God, they swear an abomination oath to their government and promise faithfulness.

Or by voting trying to build a "better" kingdom here upon earth, instead of

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Do we desire a better country? or we are simple happy to start building it here instead.

its interesting Jesus once had the opportunity to be king on earth. He refused it.

Satan offered him the kingdoms, he refused it.

but so many are building nations and kingdoms here on earth. Getting involved.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I am an ambassador here on earth on behalf on another kingdom, i dont get tangled up in its affairs, I dont wear their uniform, if your American ambassador in Sweden should start wearing Swedish uniform, buy a house, and start voting in Sweden, you would label him a traitor.

I know many quote Romans,

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

But Paul dident write this to a Christian, or talking about a Christian. He probably meant Nero, a christian murderer and persecutor.

But even these are Gods servant the ungodly leaders and nations serve God, even Usama bin laden was Gods servant even as Nebuchadrezzar was.

Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. . The Word of God shows God uses these men for his will as he will.

God will do justice with these wicked rulers, not we. We dont need fight becuse God will

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

some reformers did as they where burning and drowning people. Some made crusades and slaughtered people with bible verses.

Not much has changed today, we still have christian "nations" making wars (crusades)

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

We still fight, our method has changed.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we dont fight those with guns and bombs. This war are we called to

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.

moe_mac wrote:

hmmhmm wrote:

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.

If you knew your Bible well enough you would that the passage about Jesus and the centerion is in the New Testament and not just be arguing for the sake of argument on staying with the theology you were taught while you were growing up.

You are assuming much brother.

I dident grow up Christian, i dident hear the name Jesus ever mentioned to me my first 20 years of my life.

By Gods grace i have known the Lord almost three years, he has been good tyo me reveling much to me through his holy word and his people.

These things has come to be my conviction from reading the bible and looking at church history and reading other Godly mens writings and teachings.

moe_mac wrote:
At the least you would make an effort to stay with the passage mentioned and tell me how Jesus rebuked the soldier explain to me where I was missing it. Instead you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.

I am sorry, i will do my best to stay with your verses, i will post later brother

You can speak out clearly brother if you are saying something at me. I am referring to "know anyone?"

I can take a rebuke if i did this evil thing you say i did. Do you think my rabbit trail as you call it has no "meat" in it? is it not according to what the sum of the bible teach?

I am concerned about what you belive, since i belive you are wrong, hence i try and prove you are wrong with scripture, and some short comments on them for you. You dont listen. And you dont have to.

you have been brought up in a country that often times has a flag next to a cross in their church.

I think we have all been one way or the other been brainwashed by our society what to think and believe. i know i have and i do my best by Gods grace to rot out any swedish in me that might go against Gods word.

we need to wash that out with the word of God.

even if it goes against what you where brought up with in believing.

hmmhmm wrote:
I think we have all been one way or the other been brainwashed by our society what to think and believe. i know i have and i do my best by Gods grace to rot out any swedish in me that might go against Gods word.

we need to wash that out with the word of God.

even if it goes against what you where brought up with in believing.

Amen, brother. Often this process of "washing out" is very painful, but [b][u]IF[/u][/b] we love the truth, more than our pride (personal or national) the Lord will bring us to light, sooner or later. I hope it will not be too much later!

Hello...

I understand why the overseers of this website wish to prohibit the discussion of politics. It isn't because they believe that we are supposed to cut off every tie to the manner in which this world operates. We still pay taxes. Our Administrator, Greg, is forced to operate according to the rules laid before him by the governments in which he ministers. If he wants to travel to the United States or the United Kingdom, he must have a passport. If he desires to obtain "non-profit" status, he can use the laws that have been created and established by politicians who were voted into office.

We need to understand that there is no occupation of a "politician." A politician is simply a word meant to describe someone who works in the administration and management of the government. He is just another guy who decided to serve in such an office for what he thought -- right or wrong -- would be the betterment of his community, state, or nation. An accumulation of votes is what puts such a person into service. A lack of votes puts the other guy into service. Either way -- by participation or non-participation in the casting of a vote -- one person will win each election. If enough "good" people do nothing, then we can rest assured that something bad might result.

Like I have said before, a vote is simply a voice. It isn't declaring "allegiance" to a candidate, a party or even a social agenda. Rather, it is simply stating (by a little "x" on a piece of paper) just who you think would do a better job in governing. Oddly enough, it is just as much a "voice" as those amongst us who loudly oppose any interaction with such things. A person can vote FOR a particular reason (to lower taxes, end a war, etc...) or AGAINST a particular reason (to STOP abortion, to STOP government recognition and protection of homosexual "marriage," etc...). It might not necessarily be for the reason of embracing the totality of a candidate's beliefs.

Someone once said that those who refuse to vote shouldn't have their right to complain later. They could have used their voice (by voting), yet chose not to. I feel the liberty to vote. I would even feel the liberty to enlist in the military. While some believers might believe that this equates to declaring allegiance to a government, nationality or ideas ABOVE our allegiance to God -- this is not always the case. Sometimes, it is honorable to "choose" between candidates according to which we think is best for our families, our neighbors and our temporary country and citizenship.

I think that it is silly for individuals to go about claiming that any sort of involvement in society is prohibited by Scripture. Jesus paid his taxes -- which were used to fund a godless pagan Empire that ruled the world. Paul used the Roman roads. He used his Roman citizenship (yes, he stated that he was a citizen of Rome) in order to get out of a beating and he "appealed unto Caesar" in order to get the Gospel to Rome and the "house of Caesar." This didn't make Paul any less of a believer, nor did it equate to placing Rome ahead of Christ. In fact, Paul used these things to advance the cause of Christ.

When I vote, I always do so with the glory of Christ in mind. I also consider the needs of my family, fellow believers and neighbors. If I don't want to have my home taken by the government to be turned into a highway, I get involved with the government (by voicing my concern). The government is not perfect -- and it is far from a "holy" thing -- but it is the institution ordained by God. My vote simply reflects my choice between possible alternatives as to what I think is best for this temporary country that we are "passing through."

This situation is far from established. Yet we would do well to state that anything we feel in this matter reflects our own opinions and beliefs. It would be helpful to identify this as such. Yet I have noticed that those who are the loudest in opposition to any such involvement are often the loudest in opposition to decisions by individuals in government (such as the war). Ironically, many do not see the similarity between a voice uttered through a vote and a voice uttered through a complaint. They speak as if those who choose to utter a voice to or in the government are already serving Satan. This is a dangerous statement to make without using those powerful little words, "[i]It is my opinion/belief[/i]..."

:-(

moe_mac wrote:

hmmhmm wrote:

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.

If you knew your Bible well enough you would that the passage about Jesus and the centerion is in the New Testament and not just be arguing for the sake of argument and hard headedly staying with the theology you were taught while you were growing up.
At the least you would make an effort to stay with the passage mentioned and tell me how Jesus rebuked the soldier explain to me where I was missing it. Instead you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.

Luke 7:1-10
Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. [2] And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. [3] And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. [4] And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: [5] For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. [6] Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: [7] Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. [8] For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. [9] When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. [10] And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

Moe,
The centurion was a soldier who scripture says heard about Jesus in a time of need. Scripture does not say the centurion was a believer before he sent word to Jesus about his sick servant.

He very well may have laid down his arms and not continued as a soldier after he placed his faith in Jesus. Jesus may have instructed him to do so, scripture does not say.

History does lead us to believe, that if he continued his faith in Christ,
he would not have continued as a soldier as the idolatrous rites enjoined on the Roman soldiers were totally inconsistent with the Christian character.

Jesus did not say he had great faith because he was a soldier, but because he placed his faith in Jesus and Jesus alone for the healing of his servant.
Oh that we would do the same today.

Moe, your insinuations, insults, and accusations
are not becoming of a Christians character, we are to operate in love even when we disagree.
This is not a battle, but a discussion of the scriptures among the body of Christ.
Love ya Mac

In His Love
pastorfrin

moe_mac wrote:

Oddly enough a person can skip around in God's Word and copy and paste scriptures to falsely form and fit their theology, as you just did. In replying to my post, just as the others before you, you no attempt to explain why Jesus did not rebuked the soldier about his occupation. Same ole stategy, to get off on a rabbit trail from the subject at hand and the scripture at hand.

Brother Moe... What is the issue here?

Regardles if you are right or wrong, your arguement/debate on this subject is taking second fidle to your tone.

I love you man, but check yourself in prayer over this. Not one of these folks are above rebuke, but these are some pretty solid brothers and sisters that your harping on. Is this truly advancing the Kindgom?

:-)

moe_mac wrote:

I'm not angry with anyone, but the devil and his lies to people. By the way you haven't answered the question either and evidently you disagree or you wouldn't be urging me compromise against the truth.

If it needs to be known, I do agree with your views more then I do with the others, but just not in the way that it is being handled by you. I do not know enough about the subject to give a reply for or a refute against, thus I leave it up to others. If you want opinions, that I can give, but who really cares what my opinion is.;-)

Brother, this does need to be said. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that people have subcombed to lies from the enemy. Believe it or not, the disagreements between the brothers/sisters and you [u]may[/u] mean that you are wrong instead of them (me included).

This is not a salvation issue.

Love you to brother.

Now there is something that we can agree on. :-)

Moe,
The one on the rabbit trail would be the one who justifies going to war, taking the lives of those Christ died for and basing it all on a portion of scripture where it is about faith in Jesus Christ to heal.

How would you explain your theology in light of Christ example, or that of His disciples.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

There are countless teachings and examples in Christ own words that shoot your one scripture theology out of the water.
Why, if Jesus thought it was necessary for us to be soldiers to be His Disciples did He not teach us to do so?

Your theology teaches that Jesus should rebuke all who have died for His sake because they were caring a Bible instead of a carnal weapon.

There is recorded but one instance where a disciple of Christ used a carnal weapon and he was immediately rebuked by Jesus:

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

We are taught
2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Ephes. 6:10-18
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The only sword we are commanded to use is the Sword of the Spirit, and that my dear brother is the one we should stick to.

Jesus said: Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

He does not need our measly carnal weapons or us using them, what He needs is for us to obey His commands:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I think it is well past time for us to depend on His Power and Preach the WORD.

In His Love
pastorfrin

1 Cor. 3:16-17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I have read this passage and the surrounding passages just now and meditated upon them, this is what i think happened in LUK 7:1-10

we see in the first verse

Luk 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

Jesus had just been preaching, it is very possible the centurion had heard Jesus and was "pricked" in his heart and now seeking him for faith an healing.

It is true Jesus dont rebuke him, or say he must stop being a soldier. There are other such scriptures also in the NT. Several ones. I have read the other side to call it that, their argument and scripture. They are there. I have not come to some final and last stand on all things. But there are other scripture moe that you seem to ignore or make not valid if wearing a uniform.

what i think one of the things this passge can teach us is this

Luk 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Luk 7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

he marveled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Isent it amazing that a heathen soldier has more faith in Jesus then his own people? it is the same today, many christians dont believe gods word or all of it anyway. Or make it of non effect by their fathers traditions.

So i think even as Jesus dont forbid this man to be a soldier, he dont encourage him either.

He does use him as a rebuke to his people. and an example to us to learn from

And probably the centurion saught Jesus becuse he had just heard his preaching from

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

and these teachings are very hard to live by in a war, so one must conclude the soldier probably was "pricked" in his heart and seeking the Lord for salvation and healing. Jesus also healed in that previous chapter, and maybe the centurion saw that and had faith....

so great faith he shamed a entire nation of gods people.

I am also interested in hearing your views on the "rabbit trail" of scriptures brother moe.

Gods peace and grace brother

i think Dean taylor does a good and are very faithful in interpreting scripture in this sermon.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15168&commentView=itemComments]Theology of martyrdom[/url]

For those that are unfamiliar with this view, one shouldent be since they are just same as what Jesus taught, but we have so many that have been taught otherwise , and even if one holds the opposite view, and thinks and are convinced a christian can be in a war and fight. Wont hurt you to listen to the other sides arguments....

They may be very good. And he also gives a good testimony since he once was a soldier in Americas army.... Dean Taylor was one of the speakers at Revival conference, be blessed brothers and sisters in the Lord

Hi pastorfrin...

Moe,
The one on the rabbit trail would be the one who justifies going to war, taking the lives of those Christ died for and basing it all on a portion of scripture where it is about faith in Jesus Christ to heal.

The point is that we often dismiss the views of others when we THINK that we know which way is "perfect" and that we have arrived to such "perfection" in a particular area of our doctrine. The views of the "non-involvement" crowd (from slight to supposedly complete in nature) is duly noted. However, there are those amongst us that do not embrace such a belief in complete and utter non-involvement. Thus, we need to be careful about acting as if our own set of beliefs in such matters are the only ones that matter or that they are the only ones embraced by Jesus -- if we even have the slightest hesitation about such a matter.

I believe that I can vote. I believe that I can affect or influence the legislators and legislation of this nation. I do this -- not because I think that it is the most "spiritual" thing to do or a specific calling in Christ -- but because it is a means by which I can influence the outcome of the decisions of men and women who wish to influence this nation's direction anyway. There are certain choices that are not directly spelled out in Scripture. The Word of God says nothing about what type of car I should drive (at least, not directly). It doesn't speak directly about computers (becaues they did not exist at the time). Likewise, it speaks very little about a government like the one in the United States ("...[i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]...") because such governments did not exist in the first century. Yet I believe in providing for my family as best as I can...and this is spoken of in the Scriptures.

If a pornographic billboard advertising any sort of smut were to be created in my backyard -- in full view of my family -- I would do everything that I could to have it removed. If someone tried to break into my house, and the doors were locked, I would CALL THE AUTHORITIES while praying the entire time. If the state attempted to take my house via "imminent domain" in order to build a new highway -- I would try to do something about it (either seek proper compensation or contact my legislators). If members of my state legislature were to introduce a bill that would allow for "secret abortions" on behalf of 10 and 11 year old girls without parental consent -- I would raise my voice to both the public and those legislators. If my children were to be taken away by a state agency that claimed that I "brainwashed" them with Christianity -- I would fight such thing through the legislature. If I were arrested for preaching the Gospel on a public street -- I would fight it in the nation's legal system (appealing unto Washington if I had to). If the state introduced a new tax that targeted only Christians (as is common in Islamic nations) and used such a law to take all of our property, I would do what I could to voice my concern in and to the government. If the state tried to say that I no longer have the right to educate my own children and that I must admit them into one of these battlegrounds of the mind known as "public schools" (where, I might add, my wife works), I would do what I can to stop such a thing from becoming law. And, of course, at the same time I would PRAY and FAST.

Do you see how some of us think that we can be involved in government or in what some would call "politics?" Yes, there are limits to such involvement. Some of us who feel the liberty to vote might not feel the liberty to serve in the military. Some of us who feel the liberty to serve in the military might not feel the liberty to serve in the infantry. But is it wise to dismiss all such government involvement with blanket statement of complete separation? We are not of this world but we are IN this world. Joseph, Moses, Daniel, Paul -- they all either used the "secular" (or even pagan) governmental structure to advance the cause of our Lord.

We all know the old anecdote about a flood and a man refusing to accept rescue via a lifejacket, a boat and a helicopter because the man was "waiting on God for rescue" (and how he stood before God after dying and God asks him why the man didn't accept the lifejacket, boat or helicopter that he sent). Likewise, a government that is made up of our fellow neighbors can be influenced by our faith. God can even use the legal and legislative process to bring about good (such as opening the door to the Gospel in closed nations, as Brother Richard Wurmbrand used to attest).

We should be careful -- and prayerful -- about the words that we share. Yes, we certainly enjoy the liberty to share what we believe. But we shouldn't pass off our beliefs as if they are the only perspective that matters. I know that Brother Moe is quick to voice his perspective or thoughts on such issues, but it often seems that this is because others are so quick to advance their own as well. I simply suggest that we use patience and grace -- and do not pass off someone else's belief in voting (or other forms of involvement) as a "sinful" thing that will send them to Hell (which is how I have felt that I was treated at times). I know that this is not the message that most of us try to express, but this is how it often appears.

This election season, I will probably vote. I will almost certainly use my voice (my vote) on propositions that I feel are important. However, I might even vote for a candidate who I feels is the better of two choices in the direction of this country. There are issues that matter to me: Abortion, homosexual activism, commercial pornography passed as artistic "free speech," public religious freedom, personal security, etc... -- all of these things matter to me. I know that all things are in the hands of God and that I will be kept there regardless of the events of the future. And I know that the world is headed to a certain doom. However, I will still do what I can to prevent my family and my neighborhood from spiraling down to utter destruction.

In I Samuel chapter 17, God could have easily destroyed the Philistine with lightning or by opening the ground up and devouring Goliath. Yet the Lord chose to use certain instruments (a smooth stone and a sling) in the hands of one of His children to accomplish this. Likewise, I believe that God can use the things of this world to bring about a victory. He can use government legislature to outlaw abortion -- just as Satan often uses a government legislature to protect his interests. This is the extent of my views of government and even the military. It might not be 100% infallible and some might even scoff at such a notion, but this is what I currently feel as a child of God. This thought isn't taken lightly -- but is arrived to after much prayer, study, more prayer, contemplation and more prayer. I am certain that we all do the same.

moe_mac wrote:

There are many thing we don't know about God, but one thing we do know, He loves us so very much. He is a just God and He true to His Word and He will eternally punish all who does not put their trust in Jesus and in paying our sin debt in full on the cross and then rising again to live so we can too.

I have been for the past 3 years on oxygen 24/7 to breath. Housebound about 95% of the time. I struggled for about a year before I got set up on oxygen to breath.It's pretty expensive. I have been at the point of death and meeting Jesus several times over the past 3 years. I have had plenty of times to cry out to Him for mercy and grace. Actually right now, I am quiet comfortable, breathing good with my oxygen on, sitting in my new Lazyboy recliner my wife bought for me not long ago, typing on my new $120.00 Pent 4 Gateway laptop computer laptop, ask me about that price sometime and how I got it that cheap, with the room temperate just right. I could go on and on, God has been so good to me. I am so thankful to Him and for His presence. All that and eternal life. Wow. That is the hope that we have.

Whether I differ with you over war being justified or not is not really that important. Loving Him and being thankful for all He is and all He had done is.

God Bless all of you.
moe_mac

Brother Moe,

It is so true, our differences are nothing compared to us loving Him and being thankful for His wondrous mercy and His amazing grace.

We are not that different brother, as you may know; I lost part of my knee joint while in country along with the scares in body, there are the ones in mind and spirit. His grace has been faithful in healing these.

I’m also in a battle, as kidney cancer is taking its toll. I just found out that it has now metastasized to my left hip. So now I have a bad right knee and a bum left hip.

By His grace I still work at the VA and minister in the church, but unless I receive healing soon all this will end and I will soon finish the race.
Moe, we were once brothers in arms, but now we are brothers in Christ. One day we will meet Him face to face and we will be like Him, no differences then only blood bought brothers in and with Jesus Christ.

May God’s blessings rest upon you and yours, until that glorious day.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Chris wrote:

Actually, someone could say the same thing about anyone else's views (including your own). I do not think that it is wise to say such things (about those who we think are off on "rabbit trails") unless there is NO DOUBT about our beliefs.

Chris,

You may want to read the whole thread before you start with your accusations, if you have then it is evident you belong to one of those “crowds” you are talking about.

I have not been talking to you or about politics. I have been talking to a brother in arms and in Christ and we are well able to work out our differences.

I thank you for your concern, and trust the Lord will lead you in the Truth.

Blessings

In His Love
pastorfrin

Moe wrote:

We should not be worried about ourrr differences Pastorfrin, but being in tune with HIS WORD and standing for His righteousness. Actually Chris wrote the same thing I would have written if I had his education, I guess I could translate his post to the redneck version of it, but you have already heard that. SO I just say Amen

Worried? no, confident in Him yes.

2 Tim. 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And to this I say AMEN!

Hello pastorfrin...

You may want to read the whole thread before you start with your accusations, if you have then it is evident you belong to one of those “crowds” you are talking about.

Brother, I have followed this entire thread. In addition, you might be the one who also needs to read my post(s) again. There were no "accusations" toward you. You often accuse me of laying accusations, but I think that these are merely disagreements in beliefs.

I have not been talking to you or about politics. I have been talking to a brother in arms and in Christ and we are well able to work out our differences.

I thank you for your concern, and trust the Lord will lead you in the Truth.

I apologize for any offense that it may cause you when I ask questions or participate in this discussion. But I suppose that you did the same with Moe in his conversations. I do not apologize for the thoughts behind my words, for I know that they are pure. I do apologize (in true humility) if they do cause offense, for that was not my intention. And, of course, I thought that it was indeed evident that I was not laying any sort of "accusation" at you.

God is certainly able to lead us and guide us to all truth as we seek it with a pure heart. I do and have read your many, many "Christian Non-resistance" posts with an open heart. Please afford any of us with whom you disagree the same grace. I love you, dear brother, and I mean this with my heart.

Thank you brother Chris for 'your' wisdom.

Isaiah 42:18-19
Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. [19] Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?

and your uplifting words, I will continue to place my confidence in Him.

2 Tim. 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

May His Truth guide and be the hope of us all.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Thank you, pastorfrin. I suppose that is the prayer of every believer. May we all continue to place our trust, hopes and confidence in Him. Our ultimate goal lay in the hope that we may one day see His face in all of His glory and perfection.

[b]Proverbs 14:34[/b]
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people."

[b]Acts 10:1-2[/b]
"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."

[b]Romans 13:1-4[/b]
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”

[b]I Peter 2:17[/b]
“Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.”

[b]Matthew 5:8[/b]
“Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.”

we were once brothers in arms, but now we are brothers in Christ.