Heresy Hunters: Is This Discernment?

Heresy Hunters - John R. Lucas

How Paul dealt with Heresy
Heresy must be dealt with in the church, but our way of dealing with it may not be God's way of dealing with it. God shows us His way through Paul, who was a spiritual father to the Corinthian church and could therefore speak to them as none other could concerning heresy and false doctrine. When you labor and sacrifice in love like Paul did, then God can use you to admonish and rebuke as well as encourage. God will even use you to expose sin in the camp, and false teachers by name. But remember he was not just a brother, but a father speaking in love prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Many in the body try playing this role having not labored in love and the result leads to death. Much of the New Testament letters to the churches deal with false doctrine and heresy, therefore leaving the example of how we must deal with and how we should not deal with heresy. The scripture says "be angry and do not sin" because anger and opposing heresy is borderline into stepping over into the flesh, into faultfinding, into debate, into contention. Without Christian maturity we will normally be in the flesh and not in the Spirit when we get angry, expose sin, reveal heretics, etc.. The chapter is about SIFTING OUR MOTIVES AND INTENTS OF OUR HEARTS. Please do not “read into” what I am saying, hear with a true heart what the Spirit is saying.

I have something of the Lord to say concerning God's displeasure of those who step into the business of exposing. I do not speak to you as someone who has been attacked or hurt by them, for I have not been attacked or hurt by them, but I am sure one day, just as Paul was, the self appointed exposer will target me, just like they will get to you. Paul was frequently the target of criticism by heresy hunters, and the Corinthian Church was a church that received these sayings against Paul - because of their immaturity. Paul had to show them plainly, the evidence that “these other apostles” indeed were “false apostles” while he was the “true apostle”. No one should ever have to prove their apostleship like this but if we allow those with a critical gospel to continue then they will subvert the hearers that have yet to mature.
Remember, everybody is open game with one who makes their entire ministry a "heresy hunter" because most of them do not fear God in teaching the scriptures and they think nothing of accusing entire ministries and movements and ministers by name. They saw Paul do the same and therefore they have deceived themselves into thinking that they have reached his maturity and can do the same. Again the activity itself is not what is evil; their activity is evil primarily because their own life is not mature. It is evil because the method that is used lacks the character of Jesus, and it is evil because they have sought to expose others on their own authority and initiative instead of only on God’s authority and initiative. Proof of this is usually seen in that - if you do not say things the way they want it said or if you do not do things the way they think they ought to be done then you are TARGETED. They conduct this activity with scripture and they say they are commissioned of God as a watchman on the wall.

First, let us make it very clear that any ministry, whose ENTIRE focus is on exposing the heresy of others, is in itself heresy. They sometimes talk about others as being “extra-biblical” but their entire ministry is extra-biblical because there are NO New Testament ministries in the Bible whose primary purpose was to expose others. Only on occasion did Paul, who had obtained great maturity, expose others by name, but his spirit was out of the nature of Jesus in doing it. The pattern of Paul in dealing with error, heresy, and false teaching was to bring to light the lie and apply truth that sets you free. Paul’s word provided an answer like Elihu’s word. His own life was free of heresy as he did it. Those who wish to do what Paul did had better be walking in the Wisdom, the Love nature of Jesus and the Power that Paul did or they will eventually be calling that which is Light - darkness. Many ministries that call themselves “discernment ministries” or “heresy hunters” are liken to Job’s three friends. “They condemn but have no answer from heaven”. They tout scripture and maybe wise saying like Job’s friends but they never produced eternal fruit in the lives they seek to warn. But God has called us to be as Elihu, pointing out the error at the proper moment, in the way of God and proving the answer of life from heaven.

Enough said on those types of ministries, now let us look into the mirror of the Word to see if we have the same spirit in our hearts. It is very easy sometimes to see the error in ones like this because their sin is so blatant, but many times we have the same sin and error but in a smaller measure, God wants us to deal with what is in our hearts. I have in the past and have observed many others that have contended with “discernment ministries” and we have harbored the very SAME SIN. The very sin we can preach against and hate is sometimes the very iniquity we are blinded to - that dwells inside us. Therefore let us look inward, in that hidden closet of our heart.
I remember a leadership that opposed the heresy hunters, they did not believe in ANY discerning and judging of others. They felt like if you were to say that one was in error or you discerned them as a heretic or a wolf – you were a prideful judge. This is a pendulum swing to the other direction. The irony of this particular leadership is was their blindness to that same iniquity in their own lives. They judged others who judged. They had to determine and make judgments upon others concerning doctrines just as the heresy hunters had done to them. And as deception would have it, they did so with unrighteous judgment. They became the very thing that they hated and yet were blind to see it. We are all called to judge but not to condemn. We are called to judge other as well as matters but never in condemnation. This judging is called discernment, we are called to do it in maturity and it must be righteousness spoke in His Nature.
Jesus confronted the Scribes and Pharisees and also drove out the moneychangers, but He also was able to be overflowing in the Love of the Father in doing so. He was able to move and speak only on the prompting of the Father. Jesus also healed the sick, set free the captives, raised the dead, prophesied, and preached good news to the poor. You cannot choose to “oppose heresy” and be unwilling to do ALL that Jesus is doing. It is much easier to walk in love as I lay hands on the sick, then it is to expose error and confront the Pharisee. It is easier to minister Jesus as the healer of the brokenhearted then to drive out the moneychangers and sin not. We are not to become contentious or become involved in debate. Scripture calls this a work of the flesh and it does not matter who is right and whose facts are accurate, it is a work of the flesh and God despises it. WATCH for contention and debate among your brethren that is done “in the name of truth”. Watch for unrighteous discernments. The way of Christ is this, in an argument, the first one to lay down his life wins - in other words you must lose your life to win it, you must yield. There is never a right side when you enter into an argument or contention, for not one shall come away having received the crucified Christ. The present day heresy hunting that Christians do is a counterfeit. When you bite into the fruit - it contains death instead of Life.

Some of us preach “Jesus and Him crucified” that is not pleasing to Him, we call it “warning our brother”. We must WATCH how we present Christ. We can deceive with a great power of deception if we do not take heed, because we can use our true facts and subvert the hearers. We can use man's own common sense reasoning power to persuade others with the scriptures. Our own words can expose sin and deception in the camp. "What a noble cause" we may say, or "I am keeping them from deception" is our response. “We are just keeping others informed about the current events of what's happening in the body" we justify ourselves by saying. But hear God's heart on what we are doing and learn to discern as a spiritual man who has eyes to see and ears to hear.
Paul told the Galatian church about the heresy of Peter, however, he communicated the truth in love and never destroyed Peter or the ministry that God called Peter to perform.
Gal 2:8
(for He who effectually worked for Peter in {his} apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),
Paul put his stamp of approval on Peter's ministry before he brought up the example of the heresy of law observance that Peter propagated. Peter, like us, operated in human frailty. He had revelation of Jesus as the Christ and denied Him moments later, because he did not have a revelation of a suffering Messiah. Peter also took his sword and cut off the ear of Malchus thinking he was going to assist Jesus. We also many times thinking that we are assisting Jesus, will take His Word and cut off a few ears. When we do this, we show no compassion or mercy on others who preach the truth but who fail in an area of doctrine or character. We tend to magnify the error and highlight it and sometimes we never qualify it with the truth. This is the spirit of Satan as the accuser of the brethren. We are dangerous to those that hear us when we act like this. If we will give others the name of the minister, the church, the ministry, the movement or the denomination and label them as associated with false doctrine then the hearer may deny them categorically and miss out on something God may be trying to teach them. We focus on the things we see that are in error concerning our brother and that is all we see, but in reality there are many areas that may be right – we cannot cause someone to categorically reject another’s ministry until we know that God has categorically rejected their ministry. Even then we can only speak as we have heard Him say.
Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. (KJV)
We tend to focus on the small percentage of someone else's false doctrine as if we have no false doctrine of our own. Many times one can show you the leaven of someone else, all the while presenting their own leaven of false doctrine. You must present the Truth that sets others free. True statements about others can lead to bondage. In fact many in the church are acting like daytime talk shows that we see in the world. We commit spiritual adultery in our immaturity and are still willing to cast the first stone. Not even the accusers of the adulteress were so spiritually proud. WATCH the words that proceed out of your mouth.
Prov 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. (KJV)
Be careful about judging entire moves of God, denominations, ministries based on the most extreme element of something you disagree with – you can cause fear of reproach. This is a reproach that can cause others to be afraid to even use certain biblical terminology because of the damage that was caused. You may spot an error and make it known to others and categorically state that the entire ministry is deceptive, when in fact the deception that may exist is only a fraction of what is preached in that ministry. We see this activity in the world when we observe journalism. This same spirit can come into the church and it can be quite dangerous.
The natural mind will reason with us, "well the intention is good, to stamp out the evil of heresy". Heresy is sin, heresy is "thought processes" that are separated from God; but we must be careful when we take it upon ourselves to stamp out heresy because we can easily do it in our own strength. I see the oppression of God's people because of heresy and I myself have been tempted of Satan to do something about it on my own, but let me give you a couple of truths that will help. Moses also saw the oppression of the people of God when an Egyptian beat Moses' brethren, and Moses slew that oppressor. But it was not on God's authority, it was not God's way, it was not God's time; though Moses' intention was true. Moses afterwards spent 40 years in the desert and had totally resolved in himself, that in himself he could never do anything about the oppression of his brethren. This is when God can really use us, and when we see Moses used of God you will notice it was a method where only God could get glory and not the servant of God. Men can bring attention to themselves when they speak; Jesus said this of the learned scribes who knew scriptures in the head and not the spirit. When we do these things we have unfortunately abandoned the ministry of reconciliation to which we were really called and are now being used by the enemy to subvert anyone who listens to us.
We are not to be God's Holy Exposers!
We are not to listen to anyone who thinks they are!
Guard You Heart!
You must sow mercy to receive it. All of us have missed the mark and fallen short in our growth to manifest Jesus in pure and sound doctrine. The book of James says that he that controls his tongue is a perfect man. The plan of God is to be perfect and control our tongue, and may we show mercy to others as we walk towards that perfection; because we need to obtain mercy for that which we speak because our speech will also miss the mark of representing Jesus Chirst until that day of maturity.
If you were to avoid false doctrine than you would have to be removed from the earth. False doctrine is anything that misrepresents Jesus, whether His character or His plan and at least a small element can be found in most messages. If you were to isolate yourself from the apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers, then you would not be perfected, equipped, and edified. What we must do is receive only what the anointing in us is teaching.
If we teach truth it will expose ANY darkness.
If we teach truth then the body of Christ will learn to discern for themselves.
We do not have to be the discerner or exposer for others. For example if I tell you the name of ministries that I discern as in error, you may avoid them, but the next new one will be in line to take its place. I would also be destroying that ministry and its ministers, even though they might be called of God and have been temporarily mislead like Peter was. Again Paul did address some deceivers by name, but it was deceivers that were wolves in sheep's clothing and his audience was churches he had fathered in the faith. You better be hearing from heaven when you step out and expose a name in public. It is scriptural to do so but then so is thrusting out the money changers from our temples, and many other activities are scriptural in public ministry but you never have the RIGHT TO DO THEM. You have no rights in God’s kingdom; you gave all your rights up when you made Jesus your Lord over every action of your life. You decide as He bids you to decide. You reveal to others as He gives you permission. You expose only when He exposes, then it is not you exposing, it is Jesus bringing light to darkness. The result will be pleasing to God and will cause unity. If you do the same activity apart from relationship, on your authority – it will always condemn and provide no answer from heaven.
This is Satan's strategy revealed. Satan as the accuser of the brethren will come to you to condemn you. He will show you the parts of your life that do not look like Jesus, but he does so to condemn and judge your spiritual man. He has passed the sentence of death on you and if you accept his sayings, you will shut off your heart from manifesting Jesus to the world. Your soul will become hard as unplowed rocky soil, you will keep that sprout of life from breaking through the shell of the seed; you will have placed a bushel over the light of His Presence in you.
The Holy Spirit will come to you as well, also to judge and to condemn; but He CONDEMNS THE NATURAL MAN. He reveals the parts of you that do not look like Jesus, for the purpose of letting it become consumed with fire on the altar. The Holy Spirit gives grace and ability to put to death our ways that are evil and allow that within us to break forth and sprout life, to shine, to manifest the Love which is found in Christ.
2 Cor 4:7,10,11
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

This is the Holy Spirit judging your natural man! It can only be done by the Spirit, for the cross of Christ is never self-inflicted in its dying.

11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Satan passes sentence on the spiritual man and the Holy Spirit passes sentence on the natural man. Now when we are condemning others whether in our daily relationships or in condemning those that are a part of the body, we are as Satan, shutting them off from manifesting Jesus to the world. Now when we admonish, we are as the Holy Spirit, allowing them to break forth, to spring life, to manifest Jesus to the world. Both use TRUE FACTS, but only One produces life. Again God can use you to expose others by name but FEAR GOD and let it spring from compassion – do not deceive yourself in this matter.
Why all the emphasis on this topic?
As we progress towards truth, towards maturity, towards spiritual discernment – there will lay ahead a trap. As we see error and immaturity in OTHERS, there will be an opportunity to respond to the error and immaturity in a way that does not please God. We will be tempted to point out this error and immaturity to other mature believers or whoever will listen to us, thus becoming a BUSYBODY. We must mind our own affairs before God. We must be a people that show compassion towards those who have not yet received these truths that God has been revealing to us. If we have received anything that is of the Lord, it is only because GOD SHOWED US MERCY IN - SHOWING IT TO US. Compassion is AGAPE that shows mercy and we are not showing mercy if we have received a great revelation of God’s plan and criticize others who have yet to understand God’s plan. In your Sunday service, you may observe something which you discern as of the “soulish man” instead of the “Spiritual man”, what is your response? Did you respond with compassion; forbearing your Christian Brother, Sister or Pastor? Or did you forget the mercy that God showed you when you were ignorant in your sins? Finally, a busybody also criticizes others about how they raise their kids, what type of personality an individual has, and what religious convictions another person may hold – PUT AWAY THE INIQUITY OF BEING A BUSYBODY. Put away the critical spirit. Prefer your brother as MORE IMPORTANT than yourself.
As you become a father in the Lord to others, you will be dealing with “exposing sin” and “false doctrine”, whether you wish to or not. Therefore you must be mature and sober in your own walk – being free from heresy in you life or you will be limited in helping others get free of heresy in their life. Allow no self-righteousness and spiritual pride in your heart or the consequences will be severe in exposing unrighteousness and pride in their heart. My natural children like to play house, one plays the father and my little girl plays the mother. If we step into the activity of pointing out the heresy and deception of others and we have not obtained deliverance from heresy and deception then all we are doing is “playing house”. When you become a true spiritual father then you will know how to deal with these issues without slaying the Egyptian as Moses did and the result will not be “who made you our Lord”. God will do the slaying and your true children will leave Egypt, though, many that are not true children may fall away.
Send comments to John R. Lucas -

"Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost."

- Romans 15:15-16(KJV)

[i]...because of the grace that is given to me of God,[/i]

This stood out to me today and thought of the article shared here.

He seems to say something similar in Romans 12:3.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me..."

Not to many taker's on this one - well so far!
..............................................
The P& C movement actually laugh at us ... because we spend all of our time CHASING their errors. As is pointed out Paul never did that. Jesus said beware the doctrine of the pharisee and scribe, but not to occupy (solely) in nothing but debunking their errors. But When it came down to (Q&A) time... and they came tempting him. Then He dealt with it. Telling them they do greatly ERR because they know not the scripture, nor do they (understand) the power of God. He also debunked the saduccee who had everyone rattled - with cleverly put together arguments and with heresy which defied belief in the resurrection!!
But Jesus SO debunked their well constructed arguments .... that they (durst not) ask any more questions tempting him - that is tempting him ( to loss his cool, become angry, preach error himself, contradict the law of moses etc ) tempting him! Paul said heresy is how we christians - define true brethren from false and those not approved of God, saying it is necessary that heresy should come, so that those NOT endorsed and supported by God....might be known TO US ( and be manifested) But people who justify heresy hunting - won't come out, generally speaking on these kinds of articles. Well except to justify more "heresy hunting" perhaps .... they might :-o

Hi everyone,

I was looking at Acts chapter 20 and I think there are a couple of things of note in the context of the passage which perhaps correspond to the original post here. First, a qoute from the article:

"...it is evil because they have sought to expose others on their own authority and initiative instead of only on God’s authority and initiative."

In verse 17 of Acts 20, it says that Paul had called the [b]elders[/b] of the church at Ephesus together. And having them together(verse 18) he spoke to them. And it is during this speech that he gives them the charge to take heed to themselves and to the flock, which, he says

"...the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers"

"I think of Hank Hanigraf. To me, he seems brutal. He has been obviously correct in some of his assessments, yet has refused any grace..." -Brothertom

What saddens me most about many discernment ministries is the misrepresentaion of the opposing views. I copied Brothertom because I think Hannegraaf is a perfect example of misrepresentation.
When he is "informing" brothers and sister of the dangers of Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn he takes comments out of context and takes what they said and distort it. That's wrong and not done in love; actually it is lying and a sin. Copeland and Hinn do a good job of destroying themselves and need no help from exaggerating "ministers".
There is a time to call-out a minister (see the Apostle Paul and Apostle John and even more recently J.Edwards or R.C. Sproul). But we have to actually share what these people believe and how they think, not how we happen to view them(I think of how Sproul accurately potrays Catholics). Too many of us (personally guilty of it) try to exalt our views (which may even be right) by misrepresenting the views of opposing theology.
I think another good example or mistrepresetation, is how MANY not all but MANY sermons you hear on the emergent church flat out misrepresent their beliefs/lie about their beliefs(especially by making blanket statements).
As Christians we need to earnesty contend for the Gospel, and NEVER stand up for a false teacher! But before we point, let us first examine ourselves and then truly examine the opposing view. If the opposing view is full of darkness, we should not have to dim the lights before presenting our case, we should only have to say "look at the darkness that engulfs this false teaching"

In Revelation 2 the rebuke to Ephesus was they had much works, patience, labor, and "tested those who say they are apostles and are not" - they had a great ministry of "discernment" yet they lacked the love of God behind it all.

i think this rebuke could apply to many discernment ministries today

MANY sermons you hear on the emergent church flat out misrepresent their beliefs/lie about their beliefs.

I didn't know anyone had successfully pinned down what the emergent church exactly does believe. ;-)

MC

Hey BroThom

Let me start off by saying I am NOT defending the heretical neo-catholic view of any church. I just want to warn of "blanket statements" on what could be considered an evangelical movement.
I have in recent times undertaken reading emergent church groups, b/c I have a bud who really holds up this movement (I am 23 he is 24)
While listening to sermons I heard overwhelmingly that the whole movement was a liberal, non-biblical movement. My buddy on the other hand, personally holds the view of inerrancy, and digs systematic theology, and reads church history. So being confused I went right to the horses mouth. I picked up books by Mclaren, Kimball, and Driscoll.
I believe after reading this too many of us make and emergent blanket statement assuming all of the leaders/members are like Brian Mclaren. Brian Mclaren makes me sick. He is a major spokesman for the emergent church, and if you read his stuff or listen to him preach...you wonder if he ever really met the resurrected Christ. His "generous orthodoxy" could leave someone believing that muslims love the LORD, the Bible is really mystical and unclear, that the Truth of the gospel really isn't important as long as it's relevant, and much more(very angering book). Kimball on the other hand holds a good view of scripture. I can definatley see how his relativism will get in the way, but his views are not angering. Driscoll also is the same, except his theology is really awesome. I know many don't like him (there is a lot to not like) but you could not say that he has a low view of the person and work of our Jesus.
Their is also some good in this movement (on the Mclaren side A LOT more terrible than good). I left these books realizing I really need to "reach-out" more, b/c in our culture people are used to being catered to(they would call this being missional). Being conversational is another aspect the emergent church pushes. I think that can be a very healthy approach to EVANGELISM (not from the pulpit and never leaving a conversation open to bending the truth we nee to use conversation to cleary explain the Christian faith). The last thing is they all push education... that may be a stretch but a lot of Christian movements (especially experiential movements) do not push education.
In closing I guess I would just say beware of blanket statements. We should be able to clearly define te specifics of our beliefs and disputes. I would gladly stand and say the movement of Brian Mclaren is a heretical movement that does not reflect the Biblical Christian faith, but I would not be able to do the same with Kimball. Although I disagree with tactics and some doctrine his movement is not heretical (open enough to lead to heresy...time will tell..maybe).
I just know as a man I hate to be misrepresented especially by brothers in the Lord. Let's earnestly contend for the faith as accuratley and carefully as we can. Never settling for less than the undrossed gospel of Christ. Never surrendering truth, but never misrepresenting false doctrines. Evil will lose out, the light will be victorious!

Cool Brothertom I understand what you are saying and I agree full heartedly with your Colossians quote. The simplicity is where the beauty and power is. and the confusion factor is where the e church is very angering/saddening.

See your from Southern Illinois...hope you're not a Bears fan :-x

God Bless

Hi again everyone,

Brothertom, about this

"Remember, the holy spirit has made you a BROTHER first and above all."

I hope that we can always do what is best for those around us.

I think too though of how Absalom was the brother of Tamar, and Amnon, whom he had killed, because he had forced himself upon Tamar. And how, when he rebelled against his father David he went to the gate of the city and met those who came for judgment unto the king, and how he said

"Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man which hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice!"

Or too how Simeon and Levi were brothers of Dinah, and how they killed Shechem and all the men of the city after he had taken Dinah. And how Jacob said of them

"Ye have troubled me to make me to stink..."

and also how when he was old he said of them

"...in their anger they slew a man, and in their self-will they digged down a wall."

I wish us all well as we try to understand how to love and protect others, and ourselves.

Chris

Hi again all,

Brothertom,

'"As much as you have done it unto these, the least of my brothers, You have done it unto me!"; Jesus speaking.'

This is a powerfull reminder!

And what a weighty thing then it must be to speak about someone else in a public way!

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

- John 8:26(KJV)

This He said while He was teaching in the Temple(v20).

In the proverbs it says

"A hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbor: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered."

- Proverbs 11:9(KJV)

Hi Brothertom,

Brothertom,

"It is a powerful thing to speak of people in a public way..."

I think the article in this thread is suggesting to us that we compare our lives to that of those who had authority and grace from God to publicly identify the errors of others, before we do so ourselves.

Maybe that is a good place to start: to see if we have the grace from God to speak about others, without destroying ourselves. Not just that we can see what is wrong, but that we can communicate it to others, without exposing ourselves to condemnation as well.

We are not writing here in private letters, to those who know us, but these things are open before the whole world.

Grace to you in Jesus' name.

Chris

"Simeon and Levi [i]are[/i] brethren; instruments of cruelty [i]are in[/i] their habitations."

- Genesis 49:5(KJV)

I wanted to share something here just for consideration and do not mean it to anyone in particular.

In Genesis 34, after Jacob speaks to Simeon and Levi about what they had done, they responded by appealing to the wrong that was done to their sister.

I was thinking how it may be possible that a lust for war and for violence is hidden in our measure of love.

Wish you all well,

Chris

Hi Brothertom,

I don't think the way we talk about the sword is any indication that we fear it.

It would seem strange to think that those who feared the word of the Lord to Moses were found close and often to the border of the mountain that burned with fire.

Chris

"The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1Samuel 16:7)

"Judge not that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7:1)

"Judge not according to the appearance but judge righteous judgement" (John 7:24)

"But he that is spritual judges all things" (1Cor.2:15)

From the above scriptures it can be seen that there is a right way and a wrong way of judging or discerning.

There is a basic difference in someone that is in error or deceived, and someone that is a deceiver or a wolf.

The heart of a man can be right toward God but he can still be wrong in some areas of his beliefs or actions. This is why we need true spiritual discernment so we are not just judging what is on the outside, but we are seeing things the way that the Lord sees them. The Pharisees did all the right things, but did them with the wrong motives. Their hearts were not right with God. God is looking at the heart and the motives of a man, whereas the carnal Christian will judge a man by what he sees on the outside.

The problem with heresy hunters is that they judge after the flesh. They lump men in categories according to their associations with different streams of Christianity.

Not all of the faith teachers are false teachers, as the heresy hunters often point out. Not all of the men that were involved in various movements that the heresey hunters deemed as being counterfeits are false prophets.

The heresey hunters themselves lack discernment because they are not judging according to God's standard of judgment.

In His Love,
Mike

"There is a basic difference in someone that is in error or deceived, and someone that is a deceiver or a wolf. "

This is only true to a point. And the line needs to be drawn and never comprimised.
Some people may have different views on the effectual calling of God or the millenium reign or (see thread on rap) even music styles. This could just be people in error and their heart is focused on our redeemer. But then you have people like Joel Osteen, Brian Mclaren, or Creflo Dollar who are WOLVES. People will defend them and say "you don't know their hearts" But the mouth is a reflection of a mans heart. If these men are constantly speaking unbiblically, heresy, or just obsurd nonsense, all which comprimise the True Jesus..they have abandoned the Lord. They have exchanged the truth of the Lord for a lie. When pastors are authoritatively stating abosolute heresy (not a gray line or even a questionable moral issue)or using the name of Jesus to further lies...they are wolves and need to be pointed out as such.
Bro love can be tough and hard. But read how the Lord treats His elect who neglect His revelation for a lie...Lamentations can be hard to swallow (by that I mean WOW were the Jews disciplined)but the Lords mercies are new every morning. And before God judged He spoke through a man

Hi everyone,

Hi BrotherTom,

"There is yet a flaming Sword, and there is yet a raging war circling around it, and yes, thank God, there is yet men called and anointed to display it."

In Revelation 2:12, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that has the sharp two-eged sword.

And the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. [/color][/b]

- John 7:18(KJV)

How about you?

I have personally found that the best way to counter "heresy" is to simply preach the truth. While preaching the truth, it may be helpful to counter a thought/doctrine you believe to be in error. We are not called to sit there and nit-pick or run bull dozers through the doctrines of others. As Peter said, rather, we are called to proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

When you preach HIM, error will be exposed and come to light. While from time to time in Scripture you will find the apostles combatting false doctrine head on, you'll find that when they do, they often spend far more time setting forth positively what their view on things are instead of disecting their opponents views. Indeed, Paul warns that wrangling over words and controversies regarding the law will lead to the ruin of the hearers... especially our younger brethren who are often unlearned regarding most everything.

We are called to proclaim Christ, not wreck wrecks.

Hi again BrotherTom.

Thankyou for your response and for your patience with my question to you.

"As far as it relates to this thread, it is far too vague and odd to address. Please be direct and to the point."

I will try to.

BrotherTom, when you made this following public declaration of the judgment of God upon this organisation(The AOG), were you speaking of yourself or of God,

'Times have changed. I am sorry, but God has moved on, and out of this organization. They are not reprobate, as the United Methodists are,[the previous great and holy move], but I think this compromise, this general whisper of "Be nice now, "cause this may be bad" , spoken as it were to the wind, is an indicator that they are heading that way.'

- taken from
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23916&forum=35&start=10&15]here[/url]

Also, when you made the following public accusations, did you make them of yourself, or of God,

"Rick Joiner went to a Catholic sponsored Prophetic conference in St. Louis, Mo., in the 1990's, and was the head of the "bill". [I kept the fl yer for years.] All catholic, some robed up, some in suits.[about 100 of them] Why? I believe the Spirits controlling understand that the charisma [supernatural giftings in the church] IS the open gate, and if the catholic can contribute and serve here, then the denial of fellowship is virtually indefensible .

This is the same Rick Joyner who is a knight of Malta,[ a highly secret and catholic mystical club] displays a sword by the pulpit. Lots and lots of unscriptural prophetic teaching.[outer darkness is a distant part of Heaven..]"

- taken from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=23542&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]here[/url]

I'm not asking if these things are true or not, but whether you made these accusations and interpretation of the events, here, publicly, of yourself or of God?

Since, I think, you have presented yoruself here to this community as one capable of making public declarations of the judgment of God upon individuals, I think these questions are reasonable.

Thank you very much for your time and patience,

Chris

Hi everyone,

Brothertom,

"I do not recall the Apostles ever preaching the "excellencies of Christ" to the deceivers, but condemning them, head on; confronting them, the only effective way. Please read Acts chapter 20. Paul said he was warning night and day, with tears, for a period of three years. Some would say that this may be fanatical; overboard."

"Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

- Acts 20:31(KJV)

This passage says that Paul, the Apostle, [i]ceased not to [b]warn[/b][/i]. It does not say that he ceassed not to make public accusations and charges of guilt, or proclomations of the judgment of God upon individuals.

It does not say that he wrote letters of accusations and circulated them to the Churches. It says that he warned them. And he gave the [i]elders[/i], that God had appointed over His people, the charge of taking care for them.

He did not tell them to stand in the public places, or to travel from Church to Church, making accusations against others, or proclaiming God's judgment upon them.

Brothertom, you also said,

"It has to do with the destroyer destroying, and the bringing to light the evil behind those he uses, SO THAT our younger, unlearned brethren are not murdered."

And also in another place you said in regards to the Assemblies of God,

'Times have changed. I am sorry, but God has moved on, and out of this organization.'

Are you saying that God has revealed this to you, and commanded you to warn us of it?

Thankyou again for your time,

Chris

The New Testament is rife with warnings, admonitions, and confrontations all against heresy.

Indeed, it is rife with warnings, admonitions, and confrontations with heresy. However, these are very casual in nature. They occupy a very small part of their letters. Indeed, it seems to me that they spend more time warning us of the general character of false brethren, than they do the exact errors of false brethren. So much so that if you attempt to study exactly what it is that the false teachers were teaching (an area that much scholarship has been invested in), many times you will have to draw a question mark over the vast majority of the content of false teaching. Indeed, reconstructing the false teachers views from the NT has proven a very difficult task for scholarship.

At best a general slogan or brief summary of the nature of the false teaching is given by the apostles, but seldom in a detailed line upon line sort of way. And when they did strike at a false teaching, they briefly cut to the heart of the issue, and from there proclaimed positively what the truth of the matter was.

Please read Acts chapter 20. Paul said he was warning night and day, with tears, for a period of three years.

This is simply bad exegesis. Paul here wasn't warning them with tears day and night about false doctrine. Rather, he says time and time again the content of his admonitions had to do with the whole counsel of God. He warned them false teachers would arise from their midst, but set forth to remind them the teachings he himself set forward as he proclaimed the gospel in public and from house to house. This would be sufficient for them to know the true from the false, if they would simply cling to his teachings.

Also, this controversy has nothing to do with wranglings and disputes over the law, whatsoever.

Most "heresy hunting" does.

It has to do with the destroyer destroying, and the bringing to light the evil behind those he uses, SO THAT our younger, unlearned brethren are not murdered.

I have personally found our younger brethren come to understand more about what the false teachers teach than the actual content of the gospel itself as the result of many "Bible answer men." If we would simply hammer away at the truth of God's word instead of why so-and-so's teaching is false, then when every wind of doctrine comes their way, they will be able to stand, and will not be easily led astray. They will not need to know why such and such is false, for instead, they will see for themselves and scarcely give attention to most false doctrines, as they will know the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.

I think that an attitude of proclaiming Christ to those who have forsaken Him, is rather naive, and certainly not Biblical.

So we are to proclaim something else rather than Christ?

I think that an attitude of proclaiming Christ to those who have forsaken Him, is rather naive, and certainly not Biblical.

Just a further thought on why I believe this is wrong. Such is wrong because it shows a lack of understanding on how saving faith is generated. Romans 10 teaches that all faith comes through hearing the proclaimed word of God. The ability to respond to the gospel, no matter what state one is in spiritually, comes from hearing the proclaimed word. For the word itself imparts the ability to BELIEVE. Apart from the word being proclaimed, there is no ability to believe.

Thus, we must even proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light to those who are false brethren. For until they have the revelation we have had of the awesomeness of a holy God, they will continue on in their unregenerate state. They need to escape the fires of hell just as much as the ignorant drunk. And the way of salvation is the same for both of them.

We must give men something to BELIEVE, not DISBELIEVE.

There is indeed a place for exposing heresy. But the most effective way of doing this is to preach the truth, and not major on the lie. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." The Word instructs us that we are not to be ignorant of the wiles of the devil, but we will never get there if we focus on the darkness. The hidden things of darkness are revealed by the light. It is light from God that we need, and the more that we know the truth (Jesus), the more that the counterfeit and the false will be exposed.

Heresy hunters are looking for what is wrong in a ministry and often totally miss what is of God. You can study demons and lies and become a expert on them, but be lacking in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has to be our focus.

Mike