Sinless Perfection

bonni wrote:
I truly believe that God's grace gives the power to live an obedient life. He has freed us so that we can walk in obedience. But that obedience does not mean "sinless perfection" in this life. I am afraid that that would be heresy

Doesn't Jesus coming in the flesh prove that sinless perfection is posible?

[b]Hebrews 4:15[/b] [color=990000]For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.[/color]
If if Jesus could not have sinned, He would not have been the perfect High Priest.
Since Jesus could could have sinned, that means He only chose not to as we must do.
Jesus did not ever sin, not because He was God, but because He loved His Father.
If sinless perfection is not possible, then we have an excuse on the day of reconning, it will be that we could not have avoided the sins we committed because perfection was impossible.

The psalmist said "as for me I will be satisfied when I awake in His likeness".

As long as we are consistently walking in obedience, and quick to repent of any wrong thought, deed or motive, then we can have a clear concience before God.

If we do sin we have an advocate with the Father... I am so thankful for Christ ,so thankful for His Spirit.

Ignorance is not an excuse, however, I am not talking about ignorance of the law, but understanding what the spirit of the law is which is love, for we are not under the law, but under grace. We are to follow the spirit of the law not after the flesh(Rom 8:2,4-5).

He is the one who does the sanctifying, but we have to do the thing He says which is "Abide In Me" Then we will bear much fruit, and herein is my Father glorified. It is a process of being changed from glory to glory as we behold the face of Jesus.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin, we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

Logic
With every stroke of the key (during your post) were the thoughts consuming your mind that of perfectly glorifying God in a manner he was worthy of being praised. Was every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you" Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

Also the Bible says that "When we SEE Him we will be like Him".....Were you literally gazing into the face of the Glorified Savior while typing this post....has anyone on this earth lived every second of their lives with only Glorifying God in Christ forefront in EVERY thought, with the ability to LITERALLY gaze on the glorified Christ any time they want to? B/C that is what sinless perfection will bring. Adam had the ability to speak with God face to face b/c of sinless perfection....Moses did only when God deemed appropriate, and Moses was killed by God b/c of sin! Paul asks churches to pray that he preaches the Gospel in a worthy matter b/c he was aware of possiblie sin!

Is sinless perfection possible........? No...the arrogance that stands behind a brother who would stand up and say "I have not sinned in "x" amount of days" is obvious.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1Pe 2:21-22 For even [b]hereunto were ye called[/b]: because Christ also suffered for us, [b]leaving us an example[/b], that ye should [b]follow his steps: Who did no sin[/b], neither was guile found in his mouth:

Heb 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The first verse has been of much comfort for me personally [i] HE is able....[/i]

Believers have freedom from an evil nature. The apostle Paul states, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20.) Do not these words reveal that Christians have been delivered from both inward and outward sin? All true believers have had their hearts cleansed by faith, and seek to be pure and holy. They have a new inward nature that affects the outside. Instead of anger, bitterness and unforgiveness there is the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and self-control. [b]If, as some say, we are only freed from sin at death, then does not this make death the saviour? Yes[/b], we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

[url=http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Wesley/christian_perfection.htm]John Wesley on Christian Perfection[/url]

Thommy2 wrote:
Logic
With every stroke of the key (during your post) were the thoughts consuming your mind that of perfectly glorifying God in a manner he was worthy of being praised. Was every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you" Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

Also the Bible says that "When we SEE Him we will be like Him".....Were you literally gazing into the face of the Glorified Savior while typing this post....has anyone on this earth lived every second of their lives with only Glorifying God in Christ forefront in EVERY thought, with the ability to LITERALLY gaze on the glorified Christ any time they want to? B/C that is what sinless perfection will bring. Adam had the ability to speak with God face to face b/c of sinless perfection....Moses did only when God deemed appropriate, and Moses was killed by God b/c of sin! Paul asks churches to pray that he preaches the Gospel in a worthy matter b/c he was aware of possiblie sin!

Is sinless perfection possible........? No...the arrogance that stands behind a brother who would stand up and say "I have not sinned in "x" amount of days" is obvious.

Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

Why do you sin?
Is it because you couldn't stop your self?
You are basicaly saying that you can't stop sinning(willfuly, intentionaly disobeying known commands & laws) especialy as a christian?

Is every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you [b]as you are basicaly say[/b] you have no self control.
You are basicaly saying sin is unintentional.
You are basicaly saying sin is unavoidable.
You are basicaly saying sin isn't chosen to do.

If sin was something you didn't know you are doing, then it is not a sin.
[b]John 9:41[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains.[/color]
[b]John 15:22[/b] [color=990000]If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin: but now they have no cover for their sin.[/color]
[b]James 4:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.[/color]
The reciprocal or contrast to this is:
To him that does not know wrong, and does it, to him it is not sin.

Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting.

Brothertom wrote:

[b]If sinless perfection were possible, we would never die. We would be in a state as Adam: Heaven on Earth. [/b]

When you find such a person, Please send him or her over here, to Sermonindex. They'll straiten out all this squabbling! ;-)

Even though we would [b]stop[/b] sinning would [b]not stop[/b] the currupting(decaying) of our bodies.

And thank you hmmhmm for you contribution.

We die because of Adams sin, it was through Adam sin entered the world, sin already existed in the angelic realm, but through Adam it entered the creation.

So through one mans sin we all die

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A baby can die within minutes after it is born, and they have not sinned.

I recommend brother Rons teachings, not "sinless perfection" but very good coverage of what the word says about sin,

Sin
Part 1; its cause and consequence.
Sin, Part 2; its cure and conquest

[url=http://ncw.biblebase.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=41]Ron Baily (Sin and its Cure) two part VIDEO[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=15594]Let us go on (Compilation)[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6IjTHa6bVQ]Overcoming temptation by Zac Poonen part 5[/url]

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Havent heard what Poonan thinks about scripture, but if it's different from what God said thru Paul or the other Apostles... then Poonan is wrong.

I get bugged when instead of prooving points with scripture, people refer other people to sermons and articles.

Krispy

scripture says HE is able to keep us from falling, we dont have to sin.

and the letter to the romans dont end in chapter seven, and the chapter divisions was not there from the beginning, if we continue we quickly come into chapter eight.

we dont want to stay in chapter seven, we want to get into chapter eight.

I dont hold the belief we are perfect, but we can continually cleanse us and the more God shows us the more we can become like Christ.

God shows us more and more, he has done so with me and i have much left, but i believe scripture, if i fall and sin i dont bend scripture to make it ok, or saying it cant be overcome or any alike, i see God says he is able to keep me, the fault must be mine, its not Gods fault we sin.

And if we cant help sin, how can God throw us in hell?

"Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting."

Hold on..Let me start another thread on why there is no Trinity....I will forget that there is context to every verse, themes throughout scripture, and only camp on on what is convienient for me.
Logic when you are on this earth hanging out with the Glorified Christ b/c of your sinless perfection tell Jesus I say hello

Brothertom wrote:
Jesus shed His blood, but that is Eternal Blood, presented by Jesus Himself at the Alter of mercy, today, within the true Holies of Holies.

We are [b]imputed[/b] righteousness as we confess our sins, AND the Father grants forgiveness, as He sees His Children covered by this Holy Blood, and thereby cleansed.

Never is it implied though, that our evil natures will be made holy by this blood. There is a difference. We will all be changed; some upon the entering of Heaven, some in a twinkling of an eye, but until then, only our sin is forgiven, and that by faith.

How is one holy if they don't stop continuing to willfuly, intentionally disobey, which is to sin?

Furthermore, the only reason our human nature is/was evil is because we did not love Christ.

With all this being against sinless perfection, you give License to sin.

I would like to clarify that when I said that I was afraid that "sinless perfection " was heresy, I meant it in this light...

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:But I follow after that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

" Brethren I count not myself to have apprehended"

"I press toward the mark"

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded"

"Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule "

I believe we have been aprehended of Christ for obedience. Salvation unto obedience.

John Wesley wrote in his article;

Yes, we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

Conclusion
To suggest that Christ does not give us power over sin is to establish justification by works. But, sin no longer has dominion over the child of God (Romans 6:14.) We do not have to commit sin, have evil thoughts and wicked attitudes. God has created a new and clean heart within us (Ezekiel 36:25-36.
These are wonderful promises! But listen, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1.) Instead of looking back to the way we were, let us look forward to what we ought to be, to the provisions won for us through the blood of Christ … “Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before” (Philippians 3:13.)

I wholeheartedly agree with John Wesleys article.

I trust only in Christ's righteousness "imputed" for my salvation...

But I have been saved unto obedience, therefore I am trusting only in Christ's righteousness "imparted" (the Holy Spirit) to sanctify me and produce the fruit of the Spirit in me. But that also means that it is my job to abide in the vine so that I can receive the life flow of God's Spirit that enables me to obey. If I do not abide or "stay connected"I will begin to wither.

I believe if we christians are constantly making excuses for sin in our lives, it could be that we need to examine ourselves and see if we be in the faith.

We do not "have" to sin, it is definetly a choice.

Are we able to live the rest of our life as a christian obeying God?

Yes, because God said that sin no longer has dominion over us.

Is it likely that anyone will do that without ever sinning again?

Not very likely, ( I'm not sure that it would be good for us in the sense that we could become "proud" of it!)

Remember that Paul said that we still carry around this "body of death" ( Although it does not rule over us any longer).

I have seen times that God has allowed me to fail in some area(sin) to expose some root sin that I did not know was lurking. Nevertheless that sin was there and He knew it and lovingly exposed it to me. That is because He is the husbandman.

I had a friend that said " It's not how good you can become by the end of your life, but the PROCESS that's divine"

Blessings, bonni :-D

Thommy2 wrote:
"Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting."

Hold on..Let me start another thread on why there is no Trinity....I will forget that there is context to every verse, themes throughout scripture, and only camp on on what is convienient for me.
Logic when you are on this earth hanging out with the Glorified Christ b/c of your sinless perfection tell Jesus I say hello

And if you [b]can't[/b], tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

Brothertom wrote:
"A babycan die,within minute after it's born, and they have not sinned."

Babies can not sin, for the do not know any law to rebel against.
There natures are not "sinfull", untill they are accountable.

As I said, we all still physically die because we are all subject to vanity and are under the bondage of corruption.
God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)

Even though we would stop sinning would not stop the corrupting(decaying) of our bodies.

The scripture says this: " Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.",

Psalm 51; vs. 5

An infant cannot sin volitionally, but he inherits Adams sin NATURE.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love.

The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

However, all mankind is able to do that which they do not want to do.

John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree (born from above), we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root (effections on himself). Or he may also be worldly (effections on the world), for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
James 1:24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

"Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."...Romans:5vs, ..12

[b]so also death passed to all men[/b]
physical death passed to all because the way to the tree of life was cut off and in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)
Physical death, not spiritual death.
We all become spiritually dead after the age of accountability because of sin, therefore, we are all soulish, flesh driven in nature, being lead by the lusts of our flesh....

[b]upon all whom have sinned[/b]
but not to the extent that in the future all sined alredy.

No man can see God and live. For the record Charles Finney got off into this error, using the exact logic. It is unscriptural, and to be avoided for this reason; that if it were possible to attain sinless perfection, then the Blood of Jesus, and His mercies through His Sacrifice, would no longer be Paramount. It would be centered around our devotion to Him, not His Love for us.

Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.
Therfore, why would you persist in sin if you love God?

Finney ended up believing that a man could live his life this way, without ever sinning, if of course, he tried hard enough. He wrote volumes and volumes of a legalistic maze explaining the howes to attain this life,

They overcame him{the devil], by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and they loved not their own lives unto death; not by being without sin here on Earth.

What or WHOM is their testimony?
It isn't "how they got saved"

The blood of the Lamb is Eternal, in Heaven, and sadly, it is appointed for all men to die, and THEN the judgment. Either justified by the blood, or not.

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

The blood of the Lamb is Eternal, in Heaven, and sadly, it is appointed for all men to die, and THEN the judgment. Either justified by the blood, or not.

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

If anyone tells me i "have to" sin another day of my life, and calls himself a Christian, he is a fool. Christ shows us its possible not to sin. As Ravenhill says "the Titanic was not impossible to sink, but it was possible for it not to sink, and the same is true in the Christian life, its not impossible to sin, but possible not to sin". Also just a funny side note, Ravenhill also says people sometimes would tell him he was preaching sinless perfection and he would respond, what are you preaching, adultery, lust, covetousness, lying.

Im saying this from personal experience: Most Christians feel that they are still in bondage to sin, such as lust for many men. What kind of hope is it to tell people, well one day when you die it will go away. That s*cks! Matt 1:21 says "21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." I listened to a video yesterday on youtube by Ernest O'Neill called "A Simple Gospel", great stuff. He emphasizes how that verse Matt 1:21 says "from" not "in". Most Christians think Jesus saves us in our sins. Not true, he saves us from our sins.
Be encouraged you people who hate sin and want to destroy it from your life. Look unto Jesus! I know most all of us in this forum love God and have different beliefs on different doctrinal or theological issues. I dont believe i stand for or against anyone in particular on this topic of sinless perfection. I just say we dont have to sin, and its possible not to sin, and i know most would agree. Things just come out weird on this topic because most people dont know the definition of sinless perfection.
I dont know the definition that is the one set in stone, but im coming more to a conclusion as i see my own life work itself out in Christ that: I think a Christian can live without deliberate sin(so in a sense sinless perfection). There are many sins i could commit that i am unaware of, but i can stop the ones i am aware of because Christ said "with God all things are possible".
One more side note, to try and emphasize this point.

Ask yourself:

Can i go a second without sin?
Can i go a minute without sin?
Can i go a hour without sin?
Can i go a day without sin?
Can i go a week without sin?

I ask these questions in Christ can you go without sin, not in the flesh.

Some people i have asked these questions to who are poeple i know are born again, answer "no" to all these questions. It just shows that they have so ingrained into their minds they are still sinners all the time. These people generally dont know much about be more than a conqueror through Him that loved us.
Now also as you may wonder about me. Im not perfect not even close. But i see these past couple weeks God is delivering me from sin. I know that if i continue to strive and abide in Him, He will in me.

Try going a week without any sin. Really just try to obey God. See what happens. One more thing, Hebrews 11:6 "6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

Amen.

I would like to throw in my two cents (some of you may think it's not even worth that much)! The Gospel of Luke makes many references to Jesus' dependance on the Holy Ghost. Well, that is the same Holy Ghost that lives in us. Theoretically, sinless perfection after conversion is possible because of this. Sinless perfection is what I strive for. When I sin, I once again strive for sinless perfection.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is the pain of sin and conception David is speaking of from his mother's womb.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sex and conception is not sin unless it is in fornication.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

But the birthing itself is in sin because of the pain and sorrow of the curse of the sin upon it.

That is the pain and sorrow because of Eve's sin. Why does a child cry? Because he is not getting what he wants. It only multiplies from then on. David knowing from the conception his past life, agreeing with God, that he was born into and through sin. The original sin that Jesus took away at the Cross for the whole world. Individual sin we have no more because of confession, and our Advocate with the Father, He being faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip

The Sinless Perfection Test

This is a test for all the sinless ‘Christians’ who claim to be on par with the same sinlessness of Jesus Christ Himself, in present practice in this life while still in the body of flesh, particulalry those who deny that 1 John 1:8 applies to the Christian. That we may not be deceived or mistaken as to the nature and definition of sin, let us define exactly what sin is. According to Scripture, there are at least five basic definitions of sin. Here are the scriptures that define this for us:

1. “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:23)

2. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4)

3. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17)

4. “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23)

5. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23, 1 John 5:17)

Correspondingly, here are the definitions of sin in numeric order as quoted above:

1. Sin is a law that dwells in the flesh
2. Sin is transgression of God’s law
3. Sin is knowing to do good but not doing it
4. Sin is anything not done in faith
5. Sin is anything that comes short of the glory of God

Let us now take each of these definitions of sin and examine ourselves. Please don’t just read through these questions and skim over them lightly, for they undeniably prove sinless perfection to be utterly false. As you read each question, ask yourself if you’ve done or if you’ve failed in this. I am especially addressing those of you who claim to have attained to some degree of sinless perfection. The following questions correspond numerically with the definitions of sin above:

1. Have you been born of an earthly father and mother and are you a descendant of Adam? If so, you have a sinful nature (a “law of sin” –Rom. 7:23) that dwells within your flesh and you are inherently defiled and thereby guilty in the eyes of a holy God. (Romans 5:12, Job 15:14-16, Job 25:4, Psalm 51:5)

2. Do you perfectly obey the Law of God in thought, word and deed; plus in motive, desire, intention, etc.? Since becoming a Christian, have you ever exaggerated or stretched the truth, or said something that indirectly portrayed a false witness (lying)? Or have you lied when witnessing to someone, and a sinner on the streets asks you if you are without sin and you say you are? Have you ever looked with lust, even for half a second, at a member of the opposite sex (adultery)? Have you ever had a single impure thought? Have you ever desired to have something that does not belong to you or even entertained the thought of desiring it (covetousness)? Have you ever called somebody a “fool” or “idiot”, or any other insulting name, out of the least degree of anger (which is murder)? Have you even entertained the thought of doing it? Have you accidentally taken a pen, paperclip, or any other item that does not belong to you and failed to make restitution (stealing)? Have you kept the Sabbath holy? Have you perfectly honored your parents in everything you do and say? Have you ever done anything, even the smallest of actions, or said the simplest of words, with regard to how it will benefit you yourself supremely rather than how it will benefit God, or done anything that disobeys any single command of scripture (1st commandment)? Have you ever made a single decision out of self-will? How about loving the Lord with all your heat, mind, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself? Have you totally, completely, absolutely and perfectly done that since becoming a Christian? Or have you made the slightest decision or thought the smallest thought of getting some kind of personal benefit out of something rather than your neighbor in your stead? If you are truthful, you must certainly admit your guilt in the eyes of God, at least in thought or word.

3. Have you ever not done something you know you should have done, since becoming a Christian (or since becoming sinlessly perfect)? Did you know something to be the good thing to do, or the best thing to do, but you failed to do it? Have you always done all the good you can, in all the ways you can, by all the means you can, to all the people you can, in all the places you can, as long as you ever can? Or have you failed in this? If you’ve failed in this, you must certainly admit your sin before God, or else you deceive yourself.

4. Have you always had perfect faith before God? Have you ever doubted a single promise of scripture (which would be unbelief)? Have you always done everything you have ever done since becoming a Christian in perfect, unwavering faith? Have you ever prayed for the sick and thought within your heart that they will not be healed because of your unbelief? Have you ever attempted to ask something in prayer that God promises in His word but thought within your heart of hearts that He won’t answer? Is every thought that you think a thought of perfect faith, in full conformity to the glory of God? If you don’t admit to your present imperfections in this, then you are obviously blind and fooled. You are certainly guilty of sin in the eyes of God.

5. Since becoming a Christian (or attaining to “perfection“ if you claim to have done), have you done anything that comes morally short of the goodness and glory of God? Have you thought a single thought that Christ Himself wouldn’t think? Have you spoken a single word that Christ Himself wouldn’t speak? Have you done a single thing that Christ Himself wouldn’t do? Or are you so deceived as to honestly think you currently meet the standards of God’s glory? Can you actually stand in your present state in front of the very Throne of God and have such audacity as to believe you won’t cry out like Isaiah the holy prophet: “Woe is me, I am undone, for I am a man of unclean lips” (Is. 6)? Remember, anything, anything at all, that comes morally short of the perfect glory of God is sin. Unless you are deceived, you must certainly admit your present guilt.

And, on top of these questions, ask yourself if you have ever thought a single thought that God would consider foolish? As it is written: “The thought of foolishness is sin” (Proverbs 24:9). Even thinking something foolish is sin. Do you honestly claim to be able to walk in such a state as to never think a single thought that God would consider foolish? Therefore, offending any single one of the points listed above even in just a brief thought is considered sin in the eyes of a perfectly holy and righteous God who can read and see your thoughts just as clearly as He can your outward actions.

As we can see, only a totally deceived, blind, and ignorant and self-righteous Pharisee would ever even dare to say that they don’t presently fall short in any single one of these areas. Further, in light of these definitions of sin, we conclude it utterly impossible for any one, with the exception of Christ alone, to be without present sin before the face of the God of Heaven this side of eternity. And this is only a very brief and partial list. We could go much, much more in detail with the self-examination questions listed above if we wanted, but such a brief list will suffice to prove the point. Seeing such a partial list alone has every mouth stopped and the whole world guilty before God, so what will happen, dear soul, when you stand before the very Throne of such a perfect and glorious God! Will you dare claim to say before His all-seeing eyes that you or any other man was without present sin and unworthiness? If you think you will, then may the very jaws of Hell open up wide to swallow you in your Pharisaical self-righteousness except ye repent! If you don’t admit any present sin in light of these questions, then by the testimony of the word of God I say to you that the tax-collectors and harlots will enter the Kingdom of God before you!

Seeing exactly what sin is as defined in Scripture according to these five basic definitions has the most righteous of righteous men crying out, as did the holy and anointed King David, “Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.” (Psalms 40:11-12) Seeing this has every one of us crying out with the wisest man that ever lived: “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not” (Ecclesiastes 7:20) and again, “Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9). Seeing this, one can not help but to think, along with what the Apostle Paul said commenting on David’s words elsewhere: “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8)

DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this short questionnaire should be taken as a justification for willful sin in the life of a professing Christian. The Bible says if we continue to sin willfully (that is, against known light in known sin by an act of the will), and persist in that sin without true repentance after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then there is no sacrifice left to cover our sins (Christ’s blood then profits us nothing), and all we have to look forward to is the fierce judgment of God (Hebrews 10:26-31). If you claim to be a Christian, but you have tolerated any known form of sin in your life, and you’re not fighting it, wrestling against it, hating it with all your heart, and finding repentance and ultimately, victory over it, then you are in grave and serious danger. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and the business of a Christian is a conduct of habitual holiness and love, and bearing fruit for God’s glory. Though in many things we offend all, especially in word, the true Christian does not commit and continue in ANY known sin, and if he stumbles, he will find true repentance quickly. If you are living in any known sin, and you continue to do that sin over and over, and aren’t fighting for your deliverance with a holy violence, and seeking victory above everything else in life, then you have very much reason to doubt the reality of your salvation. Those born of God have a new nature within them, which causes them to hate sin and love holiness, and the practical conduct of all Christians who have been born again undeniably proves that their practice is one of habitual righteousness and true holiness by faith in Jesus Christ.

Christinyou wrote:
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is the pain of sin and conception David is speaking of from his mother's womb.

But the birthing itself is in sin because of the pain and sorrow of the curse of the sin upon it.

"birthing" is not in sin.

That is the pain and sorrow because of Eve's sin. Why does a child cry? Because he is not getting what he wants.

My wife wants a baby and cries because she isn't getting one. No one had better call her to be sinning.

As for babies, they have no other way of communicating, and the crying tells us things we need to know about the baby.

SaintLina wrote:
That we may not be deceived or mistaken as to the nature and definition of sin, let us define exactly what sin is. According to Scripture, there are at least five basic definitions of sin. Here are the scriptures that define this for us:

1. “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:23)

4. “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23)

Let us now take each of these definitions of sin and examine ourselves. Please don't just read through these questions and skim over them lightly, for they undeniably prove sinless perfection to be utterly false. As you read each question, ask yourself if you've done or if you've failed in this. I am especially addressing those of you who claim to have attained to some degree of sinless perfection. The following questions correspond numerically with the definitions of sin above:

1. Have you been born of an earthly father and mother and are you a descendant of Adam?

If so, you have a sinful nature (a “law of sin” -Rom. 7:23) that dwells within your flesh and you are inherently defiled and thereby guilty in the eyes of a holy God. (Romans 5:12, Job 15:14-16, Job 25:4, Psalm 51:5)

2. Do you perfectly obey the Law of God in thought, word and deed; plus in motive, desire, intention, etc.?

Since becoming a Christian, have you ever exaggerated or stretched the truth, or said something that indirectly portrayed a false witness (lying)?

Or have you lied when witnessing to someone, and a sinner on the streets asks you if you are without sin and you say you are? Have you ever looked with lust, even for half a second, at a member of the opposite sex (adultery)?

Have you ever had a single impure thought?

Have you ever desired to have something that does not belong to you or even entertained the thought of desiring it (covetousness)?

Have you ever called somebody a “fool” or “idiot”, or any other insulting name, out of the least degree of anger (which is murder)?

Have you even entertained the thought of doing it? Have you accidentally taken a pen, paperclip, or any other item that does not belong to you and failed to make restitution (stealing)?

If you walk after the spirit, you will never sin.
The thing you are forgetting is that all these are posible.
It doesn't matter if you used to do any of these or have failed. What matters if if it is posible, and all these are.
What do you say that sinnless perfection is posible?
If not, why not?

Have you ever made a single decision out of self-will?

If any thing is not posible, it is not a sin not to do.
If it can't be done, it wouldn't be a requirement.
This is posible.
Again, it doesn't matter if you used to do any of these or have failed. What matters if it is posible, and all these are.

The whole point to this thread is not if one is not reached sinnless perfection.
The whole point is if it is posible.

I won't even finish refuting your post becsuse your whole premise is wrong.

It don't matter if your guilty, all that matters is these are posinle,which they are.
Therefore, sinless perfection is posible.

You shoild also receive the correct context & understanding on dome of these which you brought up.

It is evident that you have the wrong conception of some of these and even sin its self.

I eill ask uou the same question that I asked Thommy2 & Brothertom:

[b][size=medium]Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on earth right now?

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin dince you can not stop it?

I am still waiting for the other two to answer.[/size][/b]

DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this short questionnaire should be taken as a justification for willful sin in the life of a professing Christian. The Bible says if we continue to sin willfully (that is, against known light in known sin by an act of the will), and persist in that sin without true repentance after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then there is no sacrifice left to cover our sins (Christ's blood then profits us nothing), and all we have to look forward to is the fierce judgment of God (Hebrews 10:26-31). If you claim to be a Christian, but you have tolerated any known form of sin in your life, and you're not fighting it, wrestling against it, hating it with all your heart, and finding repentance and ultimately, victory over it, then you are in grave and serious danger.

Since sin is always of the will, why can't sinnless perfection be atained?

If it can't be, then we are all innocent of being unable to not sin, this changes the whole definition of what sin is.

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and the business of a Christian is a conduct of habitual holiness and love, and bearing fruit for God's glory.

If you are living in any known sin, and you continue to do that sin over and over, and aren't fighting for your deliverance with a holy violence, and seeking victory above everything else in life, then you have very much reason to doubt the reality of your salvation.

Those born of God have a new nature within them,

KrispyKrittr wrote:
No one in this world has ever reached sinless perfection. I dont even know why this is being debated.

Jesus was God in flesh. You are not. You flippantly make it sound as tho there is no difference between you and Jesus.

Jesus was not perfectly sinnless just becsuse because He is God, it is because He loved His Father supremly.
If the only way Jesus could be sinnless is because He is God, Then our standard is unjust, incompatable to us, and impossible to attain and not justifiable to put us under such a heavy yoke of burrden with such a standard.

Secondly, if what you say is true, using your logic then you would also be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, heal anyone you wished to, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and loavess, drive out demons, be transformed into you're heavenly body so you can talk with Moses and other OT prophets, come back from the dead, ascend into heaven... oh, I almost forgot... create everything that was created... etc etc...

Finish that list first, and then we'll discuss whether or not you can reach sinless perfection. Personally, I think you'll have an easier time finishing the above list than you'll have reaching sinless perfection.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

First off, Jesus was God in flesh. You are not. You flippantly make it sound as tho there is no difference between you and Jesus.

Secondly, if what you say is true, using your logic then you would also be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, heal anyone you wished to, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and loavess, drive out demons, be transformed into you're heavenly body so you can talk with Moses and other OT prophets, come back from the dead, ascend into heaven... oh, I almost forgot... create everything that was created... etc etc...

Finish that list first, and then we'll discuss whether or not you can reach sinless perfection. Personally, I think you'll have an easier time finishing the above list than you'll have reaching sinless perfection.

Krispy

Jesus was God in flesh, but also fully man as you and me, to say he was not, is as much as a heresy as to say he was not God, anyone who say Jesus was not fully man, is as much a heretic as a Jehovahs witness.

Yet he also was fully God at the same time.

"There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." - Logic
........................hmm..................hmm.........................explain?
I understand we are able to avoid sinning, but Christ although fully human came not from sinful seed like YOU and I did. So we were DEAD in our tresspasses and sins and have a sinful nature that if it weren't for judicial justification we'd be in trouble b/c sanctification is a ongoing process not instantaneous. Christ was not born of sinful seed...he was not born DEAD in tresspasses and sins.......that is a pretty huge difference between you and Christ.

Just a little interjection here:

Sometimes we get bogged down with a topic because we are misunderstanding the meaning of a word. The word “perfect” often encounters this malady.

In musical harmony we sometimes refer to perfect vs imperfect cadences. Now, a non-musician may be tempted to think that an imperfect cadence is one that has mistakes in it –wrong notes, whereas the perfect cadence has no mistakes. But that is a misunderstanding. Really an imperfect cadence is the combination of chords that gives a phrase of music an unfinished sound – as it it MUST move on…………….. A complete cadence, on the other hand gives a finished sound. When you hear a perfect cadence you KNOW that you have come to the end of something.

In Greek study we also encounter the same idea: perfect and imperfect tenses. A perfect tense describes an action that was fully competed and has consequences for the present time. An imperfect tense has an element of continuity to it.

When Jesus said, “It IS finished” he was referring to something that was completed, done! In other words, it was NOT imperfect – meaning ongoing.

Now, apply that to the perfection that God calls us to. Is this not about being complete in Christ, through his COMPETED work.

If we find ourselves focusing on ourselves on sins, and how we can try harder to be less sinful, we might be believing in an imperfect work of Christ – as if his cross work is not good enough. It is as if we ourselves have to complete job. This is, I believe, is at the root of the legalistic mindset (behavior focused).

Would these not be the key questions to ponder:
What does Christ's “finished” work of atonement mean to me?
Am I living in his perfection or my imperfection?

Diane

"There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." - Logic

Let's use some real logic to assess this statement...which if this statement is wrong you are in error...if you are in error it's most likely SIN causing you to misinterpret theological/biblical issues....here we go

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
- Just showing all believers had to be quickened b/c they were dead

Phillipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- Jesus in the flesh was in the form of God, and was equal to God

Acts 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
-Men can only come to salvation under the name of Jesus

John 8: 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
- In the flesh Jesus was able to claim eternality as well as equality with God

Hebrews 1: 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
-God appointed Jesus heir of all things, Jesus made the worlds, Jesus purged our sin, Jesus is and exact representation of God, and Jesus had the right to take the seat of honor and authority in the Triune God-head.

Hey Logic just let me know if you can fulfill all the Scriptural requirements mentioned above...
because if "There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." you have to be able to fulfill what Jesus did or there is LOGICALLY a difference.
by the way you were born dead in your trespasses and sins so there is already a difference...but hey ya never know...

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Jesus was God in flesh, but also fully man as you and me, to say he was not, is as much as a heresy as to say he was not God, anyone who say Jesus was not fully man, is as much a heretic as a Jehovahs witness.

[b]hmmhmm[/b]...I dont know why I even bother to post on this forum anymore... people like you, who have been hear for a long time and know me well, ought not to take my words and twist them into something unrecognizable. You know that is not what I was saying at all.

What rediculousness this is.

I know Jesus was fully God and fully man... as if I even need to clarify that for everyone. Duh.

I must apologize brother, after re-reading your post i realize i must have done poor job reading it the first time. I see now you did not say what i thought you said.

My fault.

Thommy2 wrote:
Let's use some real logic to asses this statement...which if this statement is wrong you are in error...if you are in error it's most likely SIN causing you to misinterpret theological/biblical issues....here we go

Phillipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- Jesus in the flesh was in the form of God, and was equal to God:

Did you read my response yo Krispy?

John 8: 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
- In the flesh Jesus was able to claim eternality as well as equality with God.

Hey Logic just let me know if you can fulfill all the Scriptural requirements mentioned above...

because if "There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." you have to be able to fulfill what Jesus did or there is LOGICALLY a difference
by the way you were born dead in your trespasses and sins so there is already a difference...but hey ya never know...

I understand we are able to avoid sinning, but Christ although fully human came not from sinful seed like YOU and I did.

So we were DEAD in our tresspasses and sins and have a sinful nature that if it weren't for judicial justification we'd be screwed b/c sanctification is a ongoing process not instantaneous.

About this sinful nature, I've already explained wy anyone would have a sinful nature. It is because they don't love Christ.

Christ was not born of sinful seed...he was not born DEAD in tresspasses and sins.......that is a pretty huge difference between you and Christ.

Some are saying that all sin is willfull; if every action and thought a human being makes sterns from our will then it is so. But there is a difference between intentional sin, and unintentional sin. Sin trough ignorance and sin while you know something is wrong.

To me it comes across as if some are thinking that when to the best of their knowledge and ability they are obeying God and have a clear conscience and are walking in the light they are sinlessly perfect: i.e. no known sin.
Of course walking in this way is possible and also desired of a cristian. But this does not mean that if God would look on your actions he does not see any sin.
This is one of the reasons we need to walk in the light so that Jesus blood CLEANSES us from ALL unrightouesness

Some seem to say if you do not know something is wrong and you do it anyway, that this is not sin.. This would make us judge and jury over what is sin and what not. Off course you know people are judged on Gods standards not our own not even the standard of our consience.

If you unintentionally hurt a person whether it be trough ingorance or not, and later you find out, you appolagize and maybe ask forgiveness. Why? If it was an accident, then since it was unintentianal then no blame rests on you right? no of course not. You might say:' i didn't intend to hurt you, my conscience was clear. There is no blame on me.' Yet damage is done and there is no way to turn it.

In the same way you may walk with a clear conscience right now, but maybe you have hurt someone and maybe even God himself, whithout you knowing it right now, but it will be revealed at the judgement seat. So don't say you have no sin.

In old testament times, sin trough ignorance also had to be paid for by a blood sacrifice. Now also even our 'unwillfull' sin has to be washed off of us by the blood of Jesus.

Numbers 15:
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Accidents are not sins. Hope you don't punish your children for accidents!

This looks like an accident. Gods standard was different than Uzza's:

1 Chronicles 13:9-10
9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

In regards to "death being the savior of sin":

Imagine being on an airplane that's going to crash. Some on the plane have parachutes others don't. The ones whith the parachutes will safely float to the ground and will be able to go to their loved ones. The ones without parachutes will crash into the ground with high speed and die instantly.
You say earth is the reason that some are saved from falling and are able to go to their loved ones. I say the reason is the parachute, setting foot on earth was only the time that they were ultimatly saved from falling (falling stopped) and could go see their loved ones.

(It's only an example to make a point)

Jeppe

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Logic... your doctrine and theology is way off. Sorry to tell you that. The very fact that we CAN NOT attain perfection, and keep every letter of the Law is the very reason we NEED Jesus!

If we couldn't, we'd be innocent for not being perfectly sinnless.

How do you refute my last post to you?

No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning?
And if they can't, why would that be a sin?

Maybe you can tell me why you can't stop sinning?

Quote:

"""Phil, this is a christian discussion, not a new-age discussion. We don't need your new-age philosophies in this conversation.

"birthing" is not in sin."""

But the pain in giving that birth was because of Eve's sin. That is why even in Davids conception and birth he would be brought forth in pain because of sin. Just ask any woman that has given birth.

It was not because of the parents conceiving him, for it was in lawful wedlock. "and in sin did my mother conceive me;" by whom cannot be meant Eve; for though she is the mother of all living, and so of David, yet could not, with any propriety, be said to conceive him: this only could be said of his immediate parent, it means not even of his next grandmother, much less of Eve, at the distance of almost three thousand years. But, the pain in birth was because of Eve's sin. Nor does the sin in which he was conceived intend any sin of his parents, in begetting and conceiving him, being in lawful wedlock; which acts cannot be sinful, since the propagation of the human species by natural generation is a principle of nature implanted by God himself; and is agreeably to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, "increase and multiply",

Nor is the sin David speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam, and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. The pain of his mother giving childbirth being the signature of God, that sin is his nature.

What's this new age stuff? I am not a brahman, a buddist, a Chakras, I dont do black or white magic, I am not Christian science, I don't believe in the power of christals, I am not a Druid, I don't practice; Eastern mysticism, Esp or Est, I don't believe in gnosticism, Hare Krishna, higher consciousness, Hinduism, human potential movement, I don't practice or believe in Kaballah, karma, Magick, Mind Science, Native American spirituality, near-death experiences, neo-paganism, nirvana, parapsychology, prana, psi, psychic, reflexology, reiki, reincarnation, Religious Science, shamanism, Silva Mind Control, spiritism, Tai Chi, Taoism, tarot cards, Theosophy, therapeutic touch, trance-channeling, Transcendental Meditation, transpersonal psychology, UFOs, Unity School of Christianity, Witchcraft, yin-yang, Yoga, and Zen.

UFOs, only by what Walter Martin has taught.

I do believe that Jesus Christ is my life and have backed it up with many scriptures. This goes beyond what the Church believes and would say; Oh, yes Christ is in me. This is a Spiritual and physical change in who I am, Not only am I in Christ but He is in me. The Holy Spirit is my Teacher, and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me. My Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, my soul is governed and taught by the Holy Spirit and my body will be just like Jesus Christ at His coming for His Body the Chruch, His Bride, in the first resurrection.

New age philophesy I thing not. Truth of scripture; Amen.

It is important for Christians to recognize even the most disguised forms of the New Age Movement.

But one of them, I am not. But I am a new creature in Christ, a new creation race of God's people, son's and daughters of God.

In Christ: Phillip

I believe the article "The Balance Between Human Logic and God’s Logic", may shed light into this discussion. It is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23974&forum=35]here[/url]

Christinyou wrote:
Nor is the sin David speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam,

and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. The pain of his mother giving childbirth being the signature of God, that sin is his nature.

What's this new age stuff?

I do believe that Jesus Christ is my life and have backed it up with many scriptures.

This goes beyond what the Church believes and would say; Oh, yes Christ is in me. This is a Spiritual and physical change in who I am,

Not only am I in Christ but He is in me. The Holy Spirit is my Teacher

and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me.

My Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ,

my soul is governed and taught by the Holy Spirit

New age philophesy I think not. Truth of scripture; Amen.

It is important for Christians to recognize even the most disguised forms of the New Age Movement.

But one of them, I am not.

After reading all these posts it seems obvious to me that we need to make a distinction between "sinless perfection" and "total obedience".

There are times that I need to reprove my 17 year old daughter about something. She responds to me by saying " I didn't realize that I did that, I see that now, I'm sorry Mom".

Although she may not have realized that she did something wrong (sin), I still needed to bring it to her attention because it was less than perfect.

There are many things in us that we do not see at the present, that doesn't mean that God doesn't see those things that fall short of His perfection and Holiness. But just because He sees that imperfection (sin) doesn't mean that He imputes that sin to us. He will impute that sin to us only after He brings it to our attention and we refuse to acknowledge it and repent.

There are things that I exact from my 17 year old that I do not exact from my 6 year old grandaughter at this present time. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize things that need to be perfected in her it just means that it is not time yet.

Both my daughter and my little grandaughter can be totally obedient to me at whatever maturity (perfection) level they happen to be at. My grandaughter is not "less" obedient for her maturity level than my daughter, although she is definitely "less" mature. We will never be complete in perfection in this life, for this life is a process, going from glory to glory. But we can be totally obedient, acknowledging all imperfections (sins) that our Father brings to our attention, repenting, and submitting. This is "Perfecting holliness"

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I repented of my sin (nature) and beleived on Christ who shed His blood to wash and make me clean and accepted by the Father. God then sent His Holy Spirit to live in me, to birth me spiritually.

By Jesus' blood I was "forgiven" of all my sin, God was faithful to "forgive" (righteousness imputed). By the Holy Spirit perfecting holiness in me I am being "cleansed" on a continual basis (righteousness imparted). This righteousness imparted is what makes me able to be obedient.

I thank God through our Lord Jesus Christ( Him sending His Spirit to live in us) that sin does not have dominion over us anymore! There is no excuse to walk in disobedience.

We can be "Totally Obedient" but "Sinless Perfection" will only come when we are in our cellestial bodies, and when we shall see Him face to face we shall be like Him!

What a glorious day!!!!!

Blessings, bonni

Hi Jeppe.

I just finished reading your post. It wasn't there when I wrote my last response.

If it would of been, I would of just said AMEN, instead of posting!

Blessings, bonni :-D

"No one sinned in Adam"

Why did all die without the Law?

Please explain this sin that entered the world by one man, Adam.

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ, Phillip

Quote: Logic wrote,

""""Christ birthed in you", "The matter of who's faith, not a matter of who it's on", "dark faith"...ect...
It may not ge "new-age", but it certainly ain't christian.""""

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Logic are you saying the the Faith of the Son of God is dark Faith?

If I live by the faith of the Son of God there is only One the Faith can be upon.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic wrote,

Quote:

"""What's the physical change?"""

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Also Quote:

""and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one of your wacko theologies.
The Seed is Christ HimSelf, not His Spirit. (Gal 3:16)
Furthermore, No where in the Scriptures is Christ birthed in anyone.

1 Peter 1:19-24 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

The Word, (Logos)

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Logos was made flesh. The Logos was God.

"Being born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Logos of God."

You must be born again to see the things of the kingdom.

Do you believe in the virgin birth?

In Christ: Phillip

I think Jeppe made it wonderfully clear. I am sorry to see so many confused about this subject. I know as I've matured and grown- the more I have seen myself as a 'sinner'. I once thought I could almost be sinless. I once thought if I didn't purposely 'sin' in a day that I was not sinning. I was wrong. Just because I don't know it or don't plan it does not mean it isn't sin in God's eyes. It took a while for God to show me this and I am so glad He did because now I know how much I still need to grow and how much I need to depend on Jesus!

The gospel is the best news in my entire life!- especially now that I know i am not only a saint but a sinner as well. When I thought I could live on purpose without sin- I had no idea how much pride I had. I thought I was serving God better than so many others. I thought I was above others spiritually because I could purposely walk without a hint of sin while others just didn't care if they were sinning or not.

I was wrong. I was sinning all along and was blinded by my pride. I was unloving and judgemental. I was critical. I was thinking i was better than others. I was angry that others could not walk as I walked- ha ha- what a joke.
I am so remorseful about the way I might have treated others (in my family especially). Yes, I didn't know it at the time, I was unaware I was sinning- but in God's eyes my sin was there and it still stunk! I am so thankful that His blood covers my sin. I am so thaankful that I am not in denial about my sin anymore.

Made God open our eyes to see this from His perspective.

In His love, Chanin

[b][size=large]No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning?
And if they can't, why would that be a sin??[/size][/b]

Christinyou wrote:

Christ birthed in you", "The matter of who's faith, not a matter of who it's on", "dark faith"...ect...
It may not be "new-age", but it certainly ain't christian.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I know what these Sriptures say and mean, but they don't explain anything about how your theology not being christian.
Your not proving anything.

Logic are you saying the the Faith of the Son of God is dark Faith?

The Bible has nothing about it.

If I live by the faith of the Son of God there is only One the Faith can be upon.

You will never yeild to the truth that it ain't about who's faith, but it only matters Who the faith is in.

Your theology is not Christian.

What's the physical change?

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

This is one of your wacko theologies.
The Seed is Christ HimSelf, not His Spirit. (Gal 3:16)
Furthermore, No where in the Scriptures is Christ birthed in anyone.

1 Peter 1:19-24 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Do you believe in the virgin birth?

Why don't you go to a good bible college and learn real christian theology?
Maybe not, you wouldn't listen anyway.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— NIV

Romans 5:12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (NASB)

Romans 5:12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- ESV

I hope this clarifys that if we happen to be "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1 ESV) it's b/c through one MAN; Adam; sin entered into the world. So Christ was born not from a seed of Adam. My future children...born of my seed...You...born of sinful seed...Jesus came in the "likeness" of man, but not born of sinful seed. (Also I believe Jesus was fully human so do not twist my words)
So the fact that you were born in the likeness of God, but DEAD DEAD DEAD in your trespasses and sin meand you and Christ are significantly different.

Also
"No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning?
And if they can't, why would that be a sin??" -Logic

It's hard to move on to your request until we can establish the basics ...You...were...born...dead...in...your...trespasses...and sins...Jesus...was...not...(Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)point of reference in case you forgot)...so...you...are...different...than...Jesus.

Also when man was created he was made to be in a personal intimate relationship of God. Able to converse and respond to his voice. Able to walk and know God. The reason why I say your frequent errors are sin is b/c screwing up a notion on God's will is a side effect of the fall/sin (By the way the fall means that we are born dead in sin...Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)...point of reference)

"No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning? And if they can't, why would that be a sin??"

The second question seems unhelpful to me because it is framed not from scripture but from fallible logic. (No pun intended.)

There are plenty of examples in life of not being able to do the right thing even though you know what it is.

A man stumbles in business and is unable to pay back his debt. He knows full well the scriptures position on debt, and also believes God wants him to have the power to do the right thing...but alas he can't. The bible says he who borrows and does not repay is wicked. The bible does not say he who borrows and sincerely hopes he could repay is not wicked because of his sincerity. Thus he wakes up each morning knowing he is wicked because at best he can only inadequately service his debt. Though he loves the Lord, he essentially is wicked according to scripture without the power to be otherwise.

Now of course refuting this example is possible, if you define sin as intention to sin, and not haplessness. However, this nuanced dodging one another is not helpful to the person who is grieving over their failings. They will not be relieved to know that what they can not help they are not responsbile for. They still feel broken hearted in the way they have failed their Lord. Even with love at work in their hearts, they still discover corruption in their character that they were insensitive to before, but is now apparent to them, driving them once again to their knees to find rest in Christ.

As many put it here, within the desciple of Christ, submission can be perfect, and love can be completed. Still we know God is truly holy, not just in perfect intention but in every way it is possible to be holy. We on the other hand, even with perfect obedience, and love governing in us, still have no hope of having peace with our holy God without the cross of Christ and his imputed righteousness. To differ on this basic belief of what God's holiness demands, and what sin really is, makes any agreement in this conversation of 'perfection' difficult to achieve. There may yet still be a productive discussion helping one another to understand what it means to share in not only the death of Christ, but also his life...but the belief that we can be as holy in ourselves as God is in himself holy, without any imputation seems to me to be a kind of pelagianism---which hardly requires scripture to refute. Mere common modesty will do.

Now this conversation is admittedly frustrating for me. By participating in it, people who hate sin, take the risk that they will be misunderstood as having made peace with their own sin, and people who love the Lord, take the risk that they care only about being justified in their sin.

But then again, maybe I am misunderstanding you Logic.

MC

Thommy2 wrote:
Romans 5:12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

I hope this clarifys that if we happen to be "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1 ESV) it's b/c through one MAN; Adam; sin entered into the world. So Christ was born not from a seed of Adam. My future children...born of my seed...You...born of sinful seed...Jesus came in the "likeness" of man, but not born of sinful seed.

Surely, there is a diference between the seed of Seth & the seed of Cain.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters in verse 4 after his image.
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brough Noah & he was righteous.

It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".

If it is as some imply that Adam's image is now sinful in contrast to that of when God made Adam & Eve in His image & After His likeness; Then it would surely say that Adam begat Cain "after his image"; and it wouldn’t make a distinction between Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.
However, it only says that seth & him only is "after his image".

In conclusion
There is no such thing as "sinful seed"
There is no reference of "sinful seed"
Romans 5:12 Does not prove anything to what you imply.
You are infeing something that can not be proven.
Adam was never said to be "sinful seed".

There is a Seed of David & Abraham which is Christ, but there is not reference to "sinful seed" in contrast to those, do not add to God's word!!!

(Also I believe Jesus was fully human so do not twist my words)

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit for body - Eccl 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
James 2:26 as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Spiritual death, spirit from God - Isa 59:1-2 But your iniquities have separated you between and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since the Gift is eternal(spiritual) life, the death from the wages of sin is spiritual death.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.
Eternal(spiritual) life is knowing Christ, a relationship with God.

Therefore, it don't matter if I was "DEAD DEAD DEAD in my trespasses and sin"
Because it wad my own fault from my own willful, intentional sin, not Adam's, not because I was born from Mom & Dad.

Also
"No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning?
And if they can't, why would that be a sin??" -Logic

It's hard to move on to your request until we can establish the basics.

...You...were...born...dead...in...your...trespasses...and sins...Jesus...was...not...(Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)point of reference in case youforgot)

Romans 5:12 has no relivence to this whatsoever.

...so...you...are...different...than...Jesus.
Also when man was created he was made to be in a personal intimate relationship of God. Able to converse and respond to his voice. Able to walk and know God.

The reason why I say your frequent errors are sin is b/c screwing up a notion on God's will is a side effect of the fall/sin (By the way the fall means that we are born dead in sin

...Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)...point of reference

The "Therefore" is stating that the rest of what Paul says will explain the argument made in Rom 5:1-11 about our justification.
Rom. 5:12 is a peace of an explaination which must not be taken as one verse out of context.
Rom. 5:12 means nothing without the whole thought behind it.

Maybe your frequent errors are sin is b/c you are screwing up on the whole Christan theology.

What denomination do you affiliate yourself with? Also you mock my brothers and sisters on here a lot telling them to go to Bible college...where did you go? One reason why I ask is this doctrince you proclaim has been rejected by the church (not just protestants) since 529a.d....I mean the whole of orthodox christendom would say you are a heretic.
(this whole post was done in a passive, inquisitive voice so please do not twist my words)

Thommy2 wrote:
What denomination do you affiliate yourself with?

I am not opposed to denominations as such, only to their over-emphasis of the doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the Body of Christ.
I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, that He was born of a virgin, and was in the form of sinful flesh, lived a sinless life, provided for the atonement of our sins by His substitutionary death on the cross, was bodily raised from the dead, ascended back to the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us.

My supreme desire is to know Christ and be conformed to His image by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature" but, recieved the "original death" from Adam and therefore we are in weakness of the flesh, natural, earthy, and have a living soul(Corinth 15:42-45) that needs to be spiritualy united with Christ.

From our first accountable sin we became spiritualy separated from God and responsible for our own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When a person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice on His cross and acknowlage His resurection, trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of God through adoption, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

One reason why I ask is this doctrince you proclaim has been rejected by the church (not just protestants) since 529a.d....I mean the whole of orthodox christendom would say you are a heretic.

Ever wonder why it wasn't rejected before that?

Is sin is all willful and intentional, then why can't you stop sinning?
Furthermore, since all sin willful and intentional, If you can't you stop sinninghow would that which can't be stopped be a sin?

Pleas answer this.

I mean the whole of orthodox christendom would say you are a heretic.

Some would say that St. Augustine was a heretic.

Hello My dear Friends. I have read some of the responses given and I see that there are quite some different opinions here, as usual with this subject. May I just say that God still has the last word. We may agree with God or not, but still he has the last word. I hope we all know that by now. So I just propose to let God's word settle this Subject, and may we all listen to what scripture has to say.

1) The purpose of Jesus’ coming was to redeem us from all iniquity

Matt. 1:21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Luke 1:68-75 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people...that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.”

Titus 2:14 “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

1 John 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

2) Those who have been saved from their sins need not continue to sin and repent

Luke 15:7 “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”

John 5:14 “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”

Rom. 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.”

3) A child of God is able to overcome temptation

1 Cor. 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

2 Pet. 2:9 “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations.”

4) After being cleansed by the blood of Jesus, it is possible to stay clean

Rom. 6:6-7 “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

Gal. 5:24 “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Col. 1:22 “In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight.”

James. 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

1 John 5:18 “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

Jude 24 “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

5) Grace does not cover over sin, but gives power to overcome sin

Rom. 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Rom. 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

Titus 2:11-12 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.”

Jude 4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness.”

6) Whoever sins is the servant of sin, not the servant of God

John 8:34, 36 “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Rom. 6:16-22 “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but...Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness...for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness...the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

7) Those who sin are spiritually dead

Rom. 6:13 “But yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.”

Rom. 7:5 “For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins...did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”

Rom. 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death.”

Eph. 2:1 “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Col. 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins...”

1 Tim. 5:6 “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”

8) True Christians are dead to sin

Rom. 6:2 “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Rom. 6:6-7 “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

Rom. 6:11 “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Gal. 5:24 “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

9) The wrath of God abides on those who sin

Rom. 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

Rom. 2:8-9 “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil.”

Col. 3:5-6 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Eph. 2:2-3 “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Heb. 10:26-27 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.”

10) Those that profess to be saved but do not live holy will be surprised at the Judgment

Matt. 7:22-23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

11) Those who sin have no part of the kingdom of God

Rom. 14:17 “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

1 Cor. 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

Gal. 5:21 “Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things [the works of the flesh] shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Eph. 5:5 “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

12) Those that turn back to sin lose their salvation

Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”

Gal. 2:17-18 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”

2 Pet. 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

13) Those who sin cannot see nor know God

Matt. 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”

Matt. 7:23 “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Heb. 12:14 “Holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.”

1 John 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.”

1 John 2:4 “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

1 Jn 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”

3 John 11 “He that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

14) Whoever loves the world does not belong to God

Eph. 2:2-3 “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath.”

James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

James 4:4 “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

1 John 2:15-16 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

15) God does not hear sinners

Psa. 66:18 “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.”

Isa. 1:15-16 “And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil.”

Isa. 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”

John 9:31 “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.”

1 Pet. 3:10-12 “For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.”

16) Christians are not to fellowship those who profess salvation but continue to sin

1 Cor. 5:11 “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

2 Thess. 3:6 “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

Eph. 5:11 “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

1 Tim. 5:20 “Them that sin rebuke before all.”

2 Tim. 3:2-5 “For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud...unholy...lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

2 John 9-10 “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God...If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.”

17) Christians are to walk in the Spirit, not in the lust of the flesh

Rom. 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

Rom. 8:13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Gal. 5:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”

Gal. 5:24 “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

1 Pet. 2:11 “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.”

2 Pet. 1:4 “Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

18) By God’s power, Christians keep themselves undefiled

2 Cor. 7:1 “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

1 Thess. 5:22 “Abstain from all appearance of evil.”

2 Pet. 3:11 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.”

2 Pet. 3:14 “Be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”

1 John 3:3 “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

1 John 5:18 “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

19) Whoever commits sin is of the devil

Jn. 8:41-44 “Ye do the deeds of your father...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.”

Eph. 2:2 “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.”

1 John 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.”

1 John 3:10 “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

20) Christians follow the example of Christ

1 Pet. 1:15-16 “But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.”

1 Pet. 2:21-22 “Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.”

1 John 2:6 “He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

21) A holy life does not produce sinful fruit

Matt. 7:17-18 “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

Luke 6:43 “For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

Heb. 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned.”

22) Christians have an undefiled conscience

Acts 23:1 “And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.”

Acts 24:16 “And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.”

1 Tim. 1:5 “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

23) It is not what we profess, but what we live that counts

Matt. 7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

2 Tim. 3:5 “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.”

24) Those who sin cannot enter heaven

John 8:21 “Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.”

Rev. 21:27 “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie.”

25) The foundation of God is to depart from all iniquity

2 Tim. 2:19 “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

26) A Christian is a new creature; old sinful ways are passed away

Ezk. 36:26-27 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

2 Cor. 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

27) Salvation brings a heart perfection that was unattainable under the Old Testament

Matt. 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Heb. 7:19 “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did.”

Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

28) Those who love God keep His commandments

John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

John 14:21 “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me.”

1 John 2:3-4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

29) God does not give commandments that are impossible to obey

Matt. 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

John 8:11 “And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”

1 Cor. 15:34 “Awake to righteousness, and sin not.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.”

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

"That is because of a great thorn in the churches side called St. Augustine of Hippo(354-430 A.D.).
He brought in a whole lot of bad theology/doctrines that flood the Church today(Mat 13:33).

Ever wonder why it wasn't rejected before that?" - Logic
Not really. Inerrancy was not a major issue up until the 1800's and more intensly the late 1900's. Also just because we do not see it written down doesn't mean it wasn't discussed either.

"Some would say that St. Augustine was a heretic" - Logic
Hey the guy was a heck of a theologian...messed up? Yeah, his doctrine on the church...wowza! But I wouldn't throw everything he says away...kind of like C.S. Lewis. Some of his stuff brilliant...others...wowza!

"Is sin is all willful and intentional, then why can't you stop sinning?
Furthermore, since all sin willful and intentional, If you can't you stop sinninghow would that which can't be stopped be a sin?"

I think the answer to this is simply the holiness of God. Christ frees us from the bonds of sin. Quickens us to know we were dead and unaware of sin, and now gives us a distaste to sin. HE presents holy and blameless to the father! so I am not denying that we are more than conquers in Christ Jesus. But sinless perfection is impossible b/c we can not grasp the holiness of God. Isaiah was a pretty holy dude. He was also holy despite his title/office, and the wickedness that surrounded him. Yet, when he saw the LORD (veiled b/c NO man can see God and live) he called a curse down upon himself b/c of his sinfulness. The reason why we will never be perfectly sinless on this earth (Although if somenoe is not progressing in holiness their is obviously somehting wrong) is b/c the separation we still have from the Father. We do have the ability to say no to sin for a proper reason (not just I'm to tired to sin) now that we have been quickened, but we will not be perfect here. To be perfect every move we made would need to be done with a perfect motive, while perfectly knowing the will of God (not just his general revealed will, but His perfect will for your life) and worshipping Him in the way way He is worthy to be worshipped (if not it's idolatry). The Fall damaged us in a way we will not comprehend until we join the saints in glory and finally stand perfect before our LORD.

So that's why the whole perfection thing is an impossible thing.

LiveforGod wrote:
15) God does not hear sinners
24) Those who sin cannot enter heaven

Sinners are they that employ themselves in sin, we do not.

7) Those who sin are spiritually dead

The relationship with God through Christ brings spiritual life. We may sin, but that does not sever our relationship with God.
[b]1John 2:1[/b] [color=990000]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[/color]

Hey there Thommy. How are you doing? Im sorry to interumpt here, given the situation that you where writing to Logic, but may I just ask you a question? I took your silence for a Yes. :-)

Thommy, are you Holly? Is there Holliness in you?
Please do not answer me, I know not your heart, but God does.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12:14.

Will you see God? answer God. God bless you my dear friend, and may he use you greatly for the advancement of his kingdom.

Compton wrote:

"No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning? And if they can't, why would that be a sin??"

The second question seems unhelpful to me because it is framed not from scripture but from fallible logic. (No pun intended.)

There are plenty of examples in life of not being able to do the right thing even though you know what it is.

A man stumbles in business and is unable to pay back his debt. He knows full well the scriptures position on debt, and also believes God wants him to have the power to do the right thing...but alas he can't.

Just as we bring the consequences on ourselves, we are still able to never do what brought those consequences.
We are also able to ask for help and do the requirements of the one who helps.

The bible says he who borrows and does not repay is wicked.

The bible does not say he who borrows and sincerely hopes he could repay is not wicked because of his sincerity. Thus he wakes up each morning knowing he is wicked because at best he can only inadequately service his debt.

Though he loves the Lord, he essentially is wicked according to scripture without the power to be otherwise.

In Scripture, there is a usually a difference between sinners & the wicked.
Sinners are those who employ themselves in sin, the wicked are those who should know better but still continue in sin & actually do what they should know is wrong.

Now of course refuting this example is possible, if you define sin as intention to sin, and not haplessness.

They still feel broken hearted in the way they have failed their Lord. Even with love at work in their hearts, they still discover corruption in their character that they were insensitive to before, but is now apparent to them, driving them once again to their knees to find rest in Christ.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin; we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

As many put it here, within the disciple of Christ, submission can be perfect, and love can be completed. Still we know God is truly holy, not just in perfect intention but in every way it is possible to be holy. We on the other hand, even with perfect obedience, and love governing in us, still have no hope of having peace with our holy God without the cross of Christ and his imputed righteousness. To differ on this basic belief of what God's holiness demands, and what sin really is, makes any agreement in this conversation of 'perfection' difficult to achieve.

There may yet still be a productive discussion helping one another to understand what it means to share in not only the death of Christ, but also his life...but the belief that we can be as holy in ourselves as God is in himself holy, without any imputation seems to me to be a kind of Pelagianism---which hardly requires scripture to refute. Mere common modesty will do.

Now this conversation is admittedly frustrating for me. By participating in it, people who hate sin, take the risk that they will be misunderstood as having made peace with their own sin, and people who love the Lord, take the risk that they care only about being justified in their sin.

Sanctification is not in sin or in the continuation of sin; it is only cleansing & purging the unknown faults, weaknesses, and shortcomings.
We are not under law but grace.

But then again, maybe I am misunderstanding you Logic.

I am not a heretic.
I just want people to come to a better understanding of their own walk with Christ!!!

I agree with what Krispy wrote, there are some very bizzare things that have been written in this thread. I have decided that it is no longer appropriate for my teen age sons to read. I have told them not to come to the forums any more... threads like this are confusing and I do not want them to be swayed by untruth. Its really very sad...

God Bless
MJ

Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. – ESV

What I love so much about this verse is the context in which it sits. We are reminded of our brothers and sister and the feats that were achieved or they actions they took all b/c they knew God was faithful (11:11By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.) It’s so beautiful how God works. He allows us to see that we need to trust in Him and His promises, even though we are His enemy and hated His law. We even know that the OT saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 made stupid mistakes, and not just once, but numerous times.
Then He sends His Son in our/their likeness to be our propitiation our substitutionary atonement. God could have done that and left us alone… “a source of propitiation now see ya folks later”… but He didn’t. He spoke through men (moved by the Holy Spirit) and revealed that His Son, our Jesus, did what He did, not for further fame (Like God needs any), not for vain glory, but “for the joy that was set before him”. \t\t\t(soliloquy: why joy?)
This God we serve is more beautiful than any of us know (whether saved for two years or twenty). And I think the beauty shines so much brighter when held up to Hebrews 11..the “faith” chapter…that really is just telling us if we want to be a “good” Christian..to look unto the Jesus the perfecter of our faith. Doctrine and theology are very important, but it’s still as simple as looking unto Jesus.
-Amen

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust. That is why the Law Maker sent His Son to take away the penalty of Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. So all died from Adam until now without the Son, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", given as the full penalty for all sins on the Cross and healing. 1 Peter 2:24 Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. He did it all, the sin of the world that Adam put upon it, and the sins of all who die because of the penalty of Adam's sin. The sin of the world and the sins of each individual. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

How do you look for Him? John 16:8 And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: This is the Holy Spirit Comforter separate from the manifestation of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Of whom we have the witness in ourselves. 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

In Christ: Phillip

You would not recognize me if you knew me before I was saved. You would not recognize me inside or out. Everyday I am shedding more and more of my former sinful and wicked self. And yet everyday that I am drawn closer to God I see more and more sinful and wicked things in me. But I am much less sinful than I was…yet I see myself as more so at the same time. I am saved by Christ alone. Nothing do I bring. My best, most sinless, most perfect hour is a filthy stinking pile of dirty rags.

When I pray I ask forgiveness for my sins…just like He told me to.

When I am brought before God at judgment…if I can talk at all…I will ask Him to have mercy on me…a sinner.

I hate sin…yet I am not without it.
I strive to be perfect…yet I fall short of this goal.

Jesus satisfies both of these requirements. He is and was without sin and He lives in me. He is perfect and He is my life.

It is because of Christ and Christ alone I stand.

Christ our life.

Pray for me saints.

if you are still intentionaly doing things that you know are sin, then why are you doing them?

If you never intentionaly sin, how can you be accountable to them? Unless you continue in them once you know they are sin.

But every one who knows that all are only assountable to those which you know about and intentionaly do. why can't you admitt to the posibility of sinless perfection?

Christinyou wrote:
Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.

[b]Act 17:30a[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God winked at;[/color]

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust.

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust.

Again, we are only accountable to sins of which we know about.
When we first find out about a "sin" we were not accountable to it beforehand.
In other words, we did not sin doing that which is a sin if we don't know it's a sin.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin, we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

Remember, we are not under law, but grace.
We are only accountable to sins of which we know about. This means we are innocent of the ones we do not know about.
This is how we remain sinless as Christians.

I don't want to be redundant, but y'all seem to not understand the grace of God.

Sure, we hate sin, but why can't anyone agree that we can stop sinning since sin is optional especialy for christians?

If we can't stop something, it wouldn't be a sin.

Hi Logic,

I must say I appreciate the detail you put into your responses. Whatever disagreements we might have, I think you are being serious and not flippant in your posture.

Also, thanks for clarifying any area that you feel I was taking away something that you did not imply. I really dislike straw-men in earnest discussions between Christians, especially the ones I prop up!

In the end, I do feel I understand where you are coming from much better. While I appreciate what you are saying about pure intentions, I still feel, based on scripture, that sin is more objective then my awareness of it. Guilt is more then intention to me, because I feel God holds man accountable. Indeed, isn't this the problem with self-righteousness? If you ask a liberal environmentalist he feels he is morally superior to the conservative businessman. The blue collar worker feels morally superior to his white collar manager...and so on.

I think Christinyou sums this up for me:

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.

Obviously this is true among human governments, which are not always just. How much more true would this be in God's government, who is perfectly just!

For what it is worth, I have the same disagreement here that I have with Finney's theology, though I am not assuming you and he are the saying exactly the same thing. My experience, and I believe scriptures testimony, is that while man must strive to practice a clean conscience, this conscience is simply too subjective and easily corruptible to be the rule of measurement for what is and isn't sin. Again in a human court of law, a man who thinks he did nothing wrong, can be found guilty of a law he did not know or understand and suffer the full punishment for his transgression. I believe it is more so with God, which is why he sent more then a perfect example, but a perfect substitution to atone for my sin.

I imagine substitution is off the table as far you are concerned, so I don't want to belabor this discussion any further.

Thank you Logic for your detailed answers to my questions and comments.

MC

Brothertom wrote:

We all have a sinful nature.

Just as a trees nature. What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, [b]not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.[/b]
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.

However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as this analogy shows:
[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.
The term "sin nature" is as ridiculous as "apple nature", or "banana nature".

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Paul cried; "Oh wretched man that I AM, who will deliver me from this body of death!.

This was the Adam nature, that he inherited in the womb, that is the "me" nature.

[if we forsake them and confess them.] but not our natures.

They will battle us until the end. "Who will deliver me from this body of death!"

Paul never thought to intimate that he would or could attain perfection until either on the day of his death, or the day of His return.

He would agree to living with out sin, which y'all seem to say is not posible.

To say sin which is by intent and by choice to be imposible to avoide does not make sence.

No one has even explained why they can't stop sinning yet accept for [b]Compton[/b] 7 [b]Thommy2[/b], but [b]Thommy2[/b] just went off on some bad theological junk that didn't make sence and [b]Compton[/b] misunderstood me.

Compton wrote:
Hi Logic,

I must say I appreciate the detail you put into your responses. Whatever disagreements we might have, I think you are being serious and not flippant in your posture.

I still feel, based on scripture, that sin is more objective then my awareness of it. Guilt is more then intention to me, because I feel God holds man accountable.

I think Christinyou sums this up for me:
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.
-------------------------------------------------
Obviously this is true among human governments, which are not always just. How much more true would this be in God's government, who is perfectly just!
... Again in a human court of law, a man who thinks he did nothing wrong, can be found guilty of a law he did not know or understand and suffer the full punishment for his transgression. I believe it is more so with God,

I imagine substitution is off the table as far you are concerned, so I don't want to belabor this discussion any further.

However, I do like convering with your posts.

Copied from the thread "George Fox on SIN"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23989&forum=36

While I was in prison, diverse professors
came to discourse with me. I had a sense,
before they spoke, that they came to plead
for sin and imperfection ([b]that it is not possible to live the rest of our life in the flesh according to the Scriptural Standard of the Spirit of Christ Jesus[/b]).

I asked them whether they were
believers and had faith.
They said, “Yes.” I asked them, “In whom?” They
said, “In Christ.” I replied, “If ye are true believers in Christ, you are
passed from death to
life; and if passed
from death, then
from sin that
bringeth death; and
if your faith be true,
it will give you victory
over sin and the
devil, purify your
hearts and consciences
(for the true
faith is held in a pure
conscience), and bring you to please God, and give you
access to Him again.”
But they could not endure to hear of purity, and of
victory over sin and the devil. They said they could not
believe any could be free from sin on this side of the
grave. I bade them give over babbling about the Scriptures,
which were holy men’s words, whilst they pleaded
for unholiness.

At another time a company of professors came, who
also began to plead for sin. I asked them whether they
had hope. They said, “Yes, God forbid but we should
have hope.”
I asked them, “What hope is it that you have? Is
Christ in you the hope of your glory? Doth it purify you,
as He is pure?” But they could not abide to hear of being
made pure here.
Then I bade them forbear talking of the scriptures,
which were the holy men’s words, “for,” said I, “the holy
men that wrote the scriptures pleaded for holiness in
heart, life, and conversation here, but since you plead for
impurity and sin, which is of the devil, what have you to
do with the holy men’s words?”

Hi Logic,

How is anyone accountable for that which he can not know?

Obviously you've never been audited by the IRS. ;-)

All humor aside, I don't think your question is a very difficult one to answer. The essence of any just law is it's objectivity. It exists outside of our perspective and serves as a reliable measurement of right and wrong. Imagine asking your question to a judge in a courtroom. If the judge was sympathetic to your plight, then what would be the result? Moral chaos.

In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

However we are not to be lawless, but we are of the spirit of the law which is love.

On this I can agree. I believe this is a great theme covered in the first letter of John. In John's writing I think there may actually be the greatest chance of understnading between us...namely that we can love one another as Christ loved us. This is by being resurrected in him, which is something I can only believe but not explain fully. However, I understand John to explain that fallible imperfect people can still see love completed in them in such an overwhelming way that their consciences are clear and their hope in eternity is sure. Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him. in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

I believe this means we do not have to live with a duplicitous nature, that is often a source of tormenting condemnation, which I think coincides with one of your points very well. I believe being duplicitous and full of guile in our outward confession while still practicing known sin is at least part of what John means when he talks of ' walking in darkness'. (The other part is firmly holding doctrinally sound Christology and resisting anti-Christ doctrines!) Yet a sound confession must be a truthful confession as well. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. So here I think we see clearly that we walk in the light not as 'sinlessly perfect' but as truthful at all times with God, because we trust his ability to forgive and purify us. Indeed, even if we become convinced of sin, we still do not run and hide like Adam and Eve, but remain in the light.

Yet even when standing in the light, John assures gracious provision for further repentance, so evidently even those walking in the light and in fellowship towards one another are still capable of sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

And along these lines Peter echoes that love at work in us does not keep us sinlessly perfect. 1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. I believe this love for one another was commanded and commended by Jesus "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.. (Interesting that he described this as a 'new commandment'...)

So, Christ's love can be perfected or completed in us, but this perfection of love is not synonymous with sinless perfection. Even so, if we use this gap as legal grounds to sin willfully, love is really not perfected in us, nor are we really walking in the light; we are kidding ourselves. (Which is a dangerous game to play with the Holy Spirit.)

Blessings,

MC

I do indeed like your post Compton, well said sir. But, please, allow me a few comments.

How is anyone accountable for that which he can not know?

Obviously you've never been audited by the IRS.

I noticed this idea in a couple different posts. Why are you trying to make the Judgment of God similar to the judgment of evil men?

I thank God that He does not judge for ignorance.

[b]James 4:17[/b]
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

However, I also thank God that He does not leave me ignorant either. By revealing to me what is "the right thing to do" and by diligent obedience to will and to do according to His good pleasure, as He works in me, there remains no place for sin in me.

You are all characterizing sin as a "lack of perfection". If this were true than even in heaven we would all be utterly sinful because we are not God, Who is the Eternal Perfect. This is not sin. Sin is, and has always been, rebellion against God's revealed Nature and Order.

If the judge was sympathetic to your plight, then what would be the result? Moral chaos.

Actually, I believe the result would be: forgiveness. Some thing we Christians should learn more about.

"Moral chaos" is not realistic. If morality was chaotic there would be no form to it, as the universe was before creation. As it is, in reality, all morality is governed by the knowledge of God that all men possess (Romans 1:28).

However, by the standards of man's judgment there is neither gain nor loss in morality. It is God who is at work in the hearts of men. As it is written, the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God (James 1:20).

-------------------

Yes, it is true, there will be temptations. But I am sure there needs no explaining that temptation is not sin. Why temptations or past sins would leave a Blood-Bought Christian in pains of guilt is beyond me. The only thing I could apply to such a one is demonic warfare for doubting the certainty of the work of mercy and grace in Christ Jesus.

[b]James 1:15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Temptation must be intimated in the heart for it to bear the fruit of unrighteousness. This intimacy does not require the subsequent physical act for it to be sin either, as we understand from the beatitudes.

Likewise,
[b]1 Corinthians 10:13[/b]
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, [b]but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also[/b], so that you will be able to endure it.

This is very simple. God has spoken plainly, not in parables, "Be Pure! Be Holy! Be Perfect!" His Word is Spirit and Power and is fully furnished to complete the work which He has promised in us, today!

Today is the day of Salvation! Yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not promised; Today is the day that the Lord has made! Do not put off till tomorrow what can be done today!

If, rather, God is not a God of Salvation and has not given a way in the Spirit of Christ Jesus by which we may live in victory over sin, then by all means continue in willful unrighteousness.

By willful, I mean, you know you are a sinner because *this reason* and have no victory over it. And I say, willful, again, because God has freely given the victory. All that is left to say is that you aren't convicted unto sin and righteousness and judgment by which you might be compelled by the love of Christ to freely receive what God has freely provided in Christ Jesus.

If you truly hated sin, then it wouldn't be very tempting anymore, would it? And if there is no cause for temptation, there is no excuse for lust conceiving in you the fruits of sin.

As Paul said, the world is crucified to me. It is a bloody, vile, rotting, fetid, detestable thing to me.
And, not only this, I am also crucified to the world. The world sees me as a bloody, vile, rotting, fetid, detestable thing.

It is a true question, what fellowship has light with darkness?

[b]1 John 2:12-14[/b]
I am writing to you,
[b]little children[/b], because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

I am writing to you,
[b]children[/b], because you know the Father.

I am writing to you,
[b]young men[/b], because you have overcome the evil one.
[b]young men[/b], because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

I am writing to you,
[b]fathers[/b], because you know Him who has been from the beginning.
[b]fathers[/b], because you know Him who has been from the beginning.

So where do you stand on the maturity scale here? If you have not overcome the evil one then there is a high probability you do not qualify even as a "young man" according to the new man in Christ Jesus.

Not only this but the simple matter is as Leonard Ravenhill has said, "You are only as holy as you have intended to be." God has freely given a way in Christ Jesus unto all perfection in Him. Truly, the one who knows to do right and does not do it is judged. That is to say, we know God has required us to "Be Holy! Be Pure! Be Perfect!" [b]and we haven't believed His Word is able to perform it[/b].

[b]Mark 8:34[/b]
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me."

Be aware, this merely proves you have the desire to come after Him, not that you are His disciple. Do not suffer yourself in vainglory but know that no one who seeks the Lord does so in vain.

[b]Revelation 12:11[/b]
And they overcame him ([b]the adversary[/b]) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Is this teaching offensive to some who believe that Christ has not defeated the adversary and the world? Or, that Christ has not given us power over the flesh, to subdue it, and keep it under foot; to put to death the deeds of the flesh?

This was a hard teaching for myself when I refused to give up my sins as well. I would convince myself that I hated my sins, working up the wrath of man; which does not work the righteousness of God. And not allowing the Wrath of God which was appeased in Christ Jesus to overcome my desire for sin. Or to believe that God was willing to take my sin away if I but arm myself with the same mind as that of Christ Jesus, for he who suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin. Truly, the mind of the flesh does suffer, as in the throws of death, when it is not fed with unrighteousness.

Thanks be to God for every day of Salvation in Christ Jesus.

Hi boG,

Why are you trying to make the Judgment of God similar to the judgment of evil men?

I admit mine was an imperfect analogy, but in my defense it is akin to a more perfect parable that Jesus used on occasion, albeit for different topic. (And to your point, Jesus was careful to note that this judge was unrighteous.) "In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man."...And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said;now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

So I was not comparing God's perfect judgement to just some human judge in a human court with human prejudice. I was only stating that, even in a human court, the law is ostensibly objective, though we know it is not always so. Yet God will perfectly judge us! Only on the basis of establishing our guilt, is there a need for forgiveness. Now I think at this point we are in agreement.

However, speaking of comparing God to evil men in my imperfect analogy, let's not compare God's righteous atonement and forgiveness, to the sanguine clemency of evil men either! God doesn't forgive you because you were sorry for your sin. He forgives you on account of Christ's perfect work on the cross. Your sorrow may show a true heart of repentence, but it's not going to atone for your sin.

Regarding your statement that there is not really moral chaos I can only say I completely agree! Why is there no moral chaos, or even relativity? Because in God's universe men don't simply absolve themselves of guilt by passing their own inspection according to their own subjective consciences. (Am I saying that we should accept living with a guilty conscience presuming upon grace? no...) God has something to say about the guilt of each one of us. On that day some will be convinced by their own conscience they are ready for eternity, only to be awakened to a dreadful reality...and also on that day others, who have put on Christ with awe and humility, will see fully what the scandalous cross of Christ has done for them, and be further awestruck by God. As you might agree, we may not know the half of what Christ's blood has covered on our behalf.

Yet certainly we both agree there is not moral chaos.

Actually, I believe the result would be: forgiveness. Some thing we Christians should learn more about.

Again I agree, and thought I was laying the ground work for forgiveness by first establishing that there is guilt even when we are ignorant of the law. Again the rub here is that I believe God finds men guilty even when man thinks he is innocent. If ignorance was innocence there would be no need for forgiveness, only instruction.

This conversation is kind of a merry go round if we let it be. If you believe I was advocating a kind of permission for willful sin, then I can only say that written communication has failed here. If you think I am saying that we must be overcome by sin, then again, I am not being clear enough.

I simply believe the bible teaches that man is judged according to God's perfect judgement, and not according to our sincere but imperfect conscience. Yet I also believe that to not cultivate a sincere conscience and to cultivate a sinful heart is a sign of not having ever repented, and is akin to mocking God. (Which will surely fail.) Just know that when I am talking about the law, I am mindful of grace, and that when I talk about grace I am not talking about living in defeat to sin or lawlessness.

For me, all of this posting has been helpful in reminding me that the issue of what we are being saved from is still a controversy. If I seem hopeless about my ability to repent enough to fix my sin problem, then that is well for I don't think man can atone for sin with his earnest repentance, anymore then a man in debt can pay back the bank with honest regret and tears. Now a man may submit without deception, bring his records to the bank for full disclosure and be willing to endure total scrutiny. However, where the debtors books don't line up with the creditors, the debtor must defer. Likewise we can submit fully and with a pure conscience to God. But, as you noted above, God is not some human banker exacting every last penny without mercy, but has prepared a full payment for all of our debt. This payment satisfies the debt that is on God's ledger, and not man's ledger. I feel scripture is clear in God's record of man from the start. Romans 1 describes man as having a conscience so seared that he is in denial as to his wretchedness before God. Yet, according to the law, ignorance is not bliss.

I think this objective view of sin is biblical, because it puts God's perspective of sin above our own, which is also something the church needs to learn more about. ;-)

Thank you for your kind and patient words boG. Blessings,

MC

(edit: I wanted to add how I appreciate the sincere sharing of God's word as well here. Also, sometimes I find we can get into disagreement when one person is meaning to discuss the power of the spirit-filled life and another is meaning to discuss the grounds of salvation. Perhaps that is the case here.)

Again the rub here is that I believe God finds men guilty even when man thinks he is innocent. If ignorance was innocence there would be no need for forgiveness, only instruction.

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains."

Jesus said, if you were blind, you would have no sin. Is this not speaking of ignorance?

Ah, but we Pharisees, "We see!"; when in truth they do not. This is an interesting verse. Jesus says in essence, were you ignorant you would have no sin. The Pharisees say, we aren't ignorant! Whereby Jesus says, your sin remains, hence, the "if ..."

Truly they were "ignorant" but not in the way Jesus was speaking. More properly, they were "arrogant".

Yet I also believe that to not cultivate a sincere conscience and to cultivate a sinful heart is a sign of not having ever repented, and is akin to mocking God. (Which will surely fail.)

[b]Well said![/b]

Yet, according to the law, ignorance is not bliss.

On the contrary, this is according to the law of ordinances in the natural world. God is the only Judge capable of imputing sin, and He looks at the heart. Breaking the "laws of the land" or being charged with a "crime" do not necessarily mean that a sin was committed. As the laws of men are not the Laws of God. Or that any laws were broken with intention to do so. Even worldly courts distinguish meditated crimes from accidents.

Again, [b]James 4:17[/b], Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Now please, do not mistake this verse. The true question remains, HOW MUCH do we truly KNOW to do? We know a great deal, surely; even by mere common instinct.

Yet, there was a time even when I was first born again that I continued in carnality with things that did not convict me. As these things were lawful to do, though they were not beneficial to my relationship with Christ. Just as it is written,

[b]Proverbs 22:15[/b]
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Today, however, these things do convict me, requiring of me to "redeem the time, for these days are evil".

Thus, what was at first a sin not leading to death (though all sin is sin), has become sin leading to death for me because I can not continue in such things without my conscience being defiled. Meanwhile, I am aware that these personal convictions are my own and, I assume, in rare instances do not apply to any other person in the world but me. And, again, is based on my own faith towards God.

Drinking beer is a common example. To one, it is a pleasant treat (with self control). To another, a stumbling block. To one, a blessing worthy of giving thanks to God, who gave it. To the other, a curse and an offense.

It always was a strange thing for me to read, "sin not leading to death". Yet, there it is. This verse is not a "blanket" statement either. But, as I have been describing above, is based solely on God's workings with each and every individual.

I simply believe the bible teaches that man is judged according to God's perfect judgement, and not according to our sincere but imperfect conscience.

God's Judgment is surely Perfect, but God's Law for every man is not the same as the OT Law, given to the Jew, or the Law of Christ Jesus, required of every son of faith. There are more than one Final Judgments revealed in the Book of Revelation. Each Judgment has its order and dispensation. The Christians shall be judged in Christ Jesus (a wonderful place to be, yet not without tears), sinners as the enemies of Christ that they have been; and yet there remains another Judgment for the "just" and the "unjust".

For this reason you must understand what the "conscience" is. This is not some part of man that rationalizes or "grades" how bad one sin is over another. The conscience bears witness to the work of the Law written in their hearts and nothing more.

As I mentioned previously, "Sin is, and has always been, rebellion against God's revealed Nature and Order."

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, [b]you would have [u]no sin[/u][/b]"

[b]Romans 1:20[/b]
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, [b]so that they are without excuse[/b].

So they are without excuse, for what? For sin! For unbelief! And what was the judgment God gave to those who hated to retain the knowledge of God in themselves?

[b]Romans 1:28[/b], And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

They were given over to the unnatural affections of their hearts because they hated their knowledge of God. This is not ignorance but willful corruption and deception of the soul.

Zephaniah 1:12
And I will punish the men
Who are stagnant in spirit,
Who say in their hearts,
'The LORD will not do good or evil!'

One more example, a good one I think:

It is [b]not[/b] a sin leading to death to buy Starbucks coffee (though it is the devil! ;-)).

Yet, one day, while you are lawfully preparing to buy some five-perhaps-six dollar coffee drink, it occurs to you, "Lord, this stuff is 6 bucks! If I but drink this unprofitable drink 3 days every week, for a month, that is 72 dollars! I don't even tithe that much! And I wonder how it is I never have enough to give to the poor and the needy! Goodness, 72 dollars, if I make 15 dollars an hour at work that is 4.8 hours of work! I don't even give 5 hours of my week to serve my own community! When was the last time I spent 5 hours with my family and friends, in the Lord?" (And don't get me started with video games and television!)

And now this simple drink is no longer a drink. Just as the woman who gave two mites (Mark 12:44) did not simply give two mites. She gave all she had! It wasn't two mites, it was her children's meal for the entire day! It was a warm blanket for her baby!

And now this casual coffee drink defiles the conscience to enjoy. Not because it is sin in itself but rather because of the selfishness of the heart to satisfy its own pleasure at the ignominy of others. And still, for many this is not sin; and neither is it condemnable until the Lord convicts the heart.

It would be a wonderful day if we could all see money and time, not as ends, but as the means to the ends that they bring. Money is not money, but food and clothes (and with these shall we be content, [b]1 Timothy 6:8[/b]), etc.. Time is not time, but fellowship and communion and prayer, etc.. (if you do not consider your job to be all three of these things then you either need a new job or you need to repent and begin working at your job as one serving the Lord and glorifying Him in all things.)

I believe we can all agree our Heavenly Father has set a High Calling for us in Christ Jesus. However, it will not be sin to have not perfected to that Highest of Callings; for some "did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

And, again, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[...] "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."

[b]Sin is not the "lack of perfection" but the "lack of increase in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".[/b] None-the-less, let us never lower the Standard, though we may be condemned to hell in the end; never lower the Standard. Let us press on with all diligence.

I believe a great deal of the controversy in this thread lies in this:

1) ignorance: when we present this teaching from Scripture it is easily confused with "deceiving one's self". We are not as ignorant as many would believe or imagine themselves to be.

2) living a "sinless" life: the common concept of sin seems to be greatly skewed from what Scripture reveals. The most basic understanding of sin is this:
God says, "Do this," man says, "I will not";
God says, "Don't do this," man says, "I will do".

How does God say these things? His Words are Spirit and Life. He is not speaking on tablets of stone but in the very hearts of men.

It has been my personal understanding that the conscience is, or is part of, the "measure of faith" given to all men whereby all might haply come to know the only true God. And much greater than this, "my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 9:1). The way it is meant to be.

God's perspective of sin above our own, which is also something the church needs to learn more about.

And this is very true. While I have been, perhaps seemingly, casual in speaking of ignorance and how it isn't sin. I will indeed not stay my hand to say with conviction the exceedingly sinfullness of sin. I may be scorned for speaking of God's grace concerning unfeigned ignorance; but [b]Who[/b] shall scorn those who apply this same grace to "seared consciences"? To those who say, "I can go to heaven even though I live a life of sin"? Whatever happened to the days when wicked men went to hell?

Jeremiah 17
9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10. [b]I the LORD search the heart[/b], I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

It is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean! Not what goes in a man but what comes out! Guard your hearts!

sometimes I find we can get into disagreement when one person is meaning to discuss the power of the spirit-filled life and another is meaning to discuss the grounds of salvation.

Possibly :P

However, the grounds of salvation has nothing to do with sinners sinning, but sinners repenting and believing. And as Christians we are required to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. As we are never supposed to leave the grounds of salvation.

I wanted to add how I appreciate the sincere sharing of God's word as well here.

Freely we have received, thus we are bid, freely give.
What better to freely give than what we have freely received in Christ?

It is always a pleasure, sir! :-P

Hi Bog,

Apparently this controversy is linked to not having the same measurement of sin . For you, and I assume Logic, one must be aware of a transgression before they can be found guilty of it. For myself, I agree that whatever you are aware of you are responsible for, but I believe the bible's measurement of our guilt extends to include what I am also insensitive of.

Let's do some clarifying first. You are occasionaly introducing this straw man who confesses Christ while living in willful sin. I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I should hope no one here is arguing for that terrible 'bend the knee-sin for free' religion that has infected so many people. I think we can let that particular straw man go.

Also I can agree with you concerning things like food and clothing. I believe the gospel adresses something deeper then outward wordliness, but inward corruption that turns alcohol into alcoholism. And yet, as you well know, love is the strongest motivation to lay down personal liberties for the interest and care of another.

Okay, back to the discussion of whether we can be found guilty if we aren't aware of our guilt. You yourself said you would rather the standard exclude you from heaven then be lowered for you. Well, by recognizing that there is this objective measurement that you referred to as the standard you are making my case for me!

Now regarding your case, the scriptures you applied do not help as you might expect. Jesus, did say that if they were blind they would have no sin. But he was being ironic with them, because they were blind! They saw themselves as already righteous and wise, and could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity. As a result he was going to let them remain guilty in their self-righteousness. As you know, the Gospel is resisted or missed by those who already feel righteous based on their own self-evaluation.

Jesus doesn't really concede that they see anything at all, but only that they claim to see. Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. (KJV). Same verse, different rendering...Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.(NIV) And if after we have made our claim, God sees something different then our self-assesment, will he hold that against us? I believe the answer is yes, and that is why the cross of Christ is so important to those who have put their faith in Jesus.

God's measurement of our hearts does not defer to our measurement, but clearly supercedes it, overrules it...even contradicts it if needed, as demonstrated in these verses. All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD...Honest scales and balances are from the LORD; all the weights in the bag are of his making. Prov 3

And again...All a man's ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart. Prov 21

Furthermore Paul picks up this important truth and makes it explicitly clear in 1 Corinthians 4:3-5. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.

Brother I believe our two views are not crossing one another but aligned perfectly. Yes, they are like two tape measures stretched out in the same direction, but they are of different lengths as one takes additional ground into consideration. In other words, I agree with everthing you are saying, and am replying 'yes, but the guilt of man requires more then a commitment to live without known sin. There must be a perfect reckoning, a complete atonment, and this is only possible because of the cross.

Brother, I am going out of town with my family, so if I am silent for a week, that is why. Thank you much for the very edifying dialogue.

MC

I have no intention of diving into this debate, but will insert just a few words. May they be of use to someone.

First, Compton said,

This controversy is linked to not having the same measurement of sin.

I agree completely.

This past weekend I attended a brother's wedding. Several people there professed to have received the "second blessing" and were living in "total sanctification". When asked to expound their experience, one fellow stated that he had not sinned once in more than six months. After this statement, one listener struggled to reattach his jaw.

The brother making this claim was, to all appearances, completely serious and no novice. I asked him to clarify what he meant by "had not sinned". He emphatically asserted that he had not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for the whole of six months. Standing before me was a man - and I make no mock or jest - claiming greater spiritual attainments than Wesley, Whitefield, Brainerd, Ryle (who wrote the book on Holiness, google it) or the vast majority of those we respect the wisdom of, ever did. I had to wonder, was he deceived? A liar? Or had he a very different standard of sin?

Now, I agree no temptation tries the believer which God has not made a way of escape from - if, and only if, the man recognizes the temptation and seeks his deliverance by Christ's power. But this does not even touch the sins which are done unintentionally and obliviously, or suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care, or through gross unfamiliarity with the scriptures. If a man squanders his time in vain activities so that he does not read and know portions of God's word which describe his particular sins, he is become guilty of two crimes, not innocent of all.

Paul teaches that the old nature beside which Christ's life is imparted is to be "reckoned" dead. He does not say it is "dead" in the strict sense of being annihilated and having no more influence whatsoever, but rather "reckoned dead" in that we consider it as beaten; inferior to the new and living power that works in us. The victory of Christ's indwelling is to the old nature as a decisive battle, irrevocably turning the tides of war, though not at once ending the war. Christ in us is the beginning of the end of intentional sin.

For now we await the old nature's final obliteration at spiritual glorification. We practice mortification, the process of putting to death our "members" which are upon earth. Consider that Paul refers to these members not as physical appendages, such as hands or eyes, but as lusts and sinful impulses which are properly called our own. They are distinct from the world and from the devil; they are the remaining drives and corruptions not yet banished from believers. We are now freed from their dominion and guilt. Our calling is to subdue and mortify these fleshly desires.

Let's do some clarifying first. You are occasionaly introducing this straw man who confesses Christ while living in willful sin. I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I should hope no one here is arguing for that terrible 'bend the knee-sin for free' religion that has infected so many people. I think we can let that particular straw man go.

Thanks for including this MC. I would also like to state that I hope no one is thinking that the folks on this thread that see themselves as sinners are advocating intentional or premeditated sin. Some of the most Godly and consecrated people I have known would never think of identifying themselves as anything more than a sinner saved by grace.

Grace and peace

Greetings

I wanted to say thank you for posting and sharing what you did, theopenlife. I agree completely with what you shared. Also wanted to say thank you to Brothertom for your words that you shared with me as well. God Bless you both.

MJ

The openlife quoted

"Paul teaches that the old nature beside which Christ's life is imparted is to be "reckoned" dead. He does not say it is "dead" in the strict sense of being annihilated and having no more influence whatsoever, but rather "reckoned dead" in that we consider it as beaten; inferior to the new and living power that works in us. The victory of Christ's indwelling is to the old nature as a decisive battle, irrevocably turning the tides of war, though not at once ending the war. Christ in us is the beginning of the end of intentional sin."

This is very good, it reminds me of the history of Israel in the book of Esther when the king sealed the decree that the Jews would be attacked and destroyed (symbol of the judgement of the sin nature)

Later the king "added" to the decree, notice that he did not destroy the old but added to it that the Jews could fight back. The Jews were also given weapons to fight with to overcome the attackers (symbol of the Holy Spirit fighting against our sinful nature)

blessings, bonni

It is encouraging to see all these beautiful responses!

As some 10,000+ divisions in "denominational doctrines" has proved, it is very easy for "us inquiring minds" to be challenged with one teaching that "leans to the side" (in its incomplete brevity) and flee to an "opposite extreme"! Then others see this extreme and flee to the exact opposite of that extreme! It is craziness!

This here is just beautiful; I see these responses coming along and lining up in order with all truth!

Brother I believe our two views are not crossing one another but aligned perfectly. Yes, they are like two tape measures stretched out in the same direction, but they are of different lengths as one takes additional ground into consideration. In other words, I agree with everthing you are saying, and am replying 'yes, but the guilt of man requires more then a commitment to live without known sin. There must be a perfect reckoning, a complete atonment, and this is only possible because of the cross.

I like you :)
I will look forward to more conversing.
Do enjoy your time with your family, in the Lord!

if, and only if, the man recognizes the temptation and seeks his deliverance by Christ's power.

Note: "taking the shield of faith with which [b]you will be able to quench[/b] all the fiery darts of the wicked one."

We are bid to be alert and diligent. Just having the "shield of faith" isn't enough to defend yourself, it must be used and applied effectively.

They saw themselves as already righteous and wise, and could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity. As a result he was going to let them remain guilty in their self-righteousness. As you know, the Gospel is resisted or missed by those who already feel righteous based on their own self-evaluation.

Actually this isn't correct: "could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity". Do you recall, "there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

Perhaps, they weren't ready to accept Him as the Christ. But this wasn't one Pharisee's opinion, either, "WE KNOW THAT YOU have come from God ..."

I am often baffled by this idea of "not recognizing sin". Perhaps, we are simply getting sin confused with trying to figure out what we ought to be doing in the natural world (is it God's will that I cook chicken or steak for dinner? Or, should I be a missionary to *place*? Or, what should the structure of "the church" be? etc.) and not understanding that the sin we are (at least I am) talking about, is the motives and intentions of the heart in all things we do. Hence, the distinction between "ignorance" and "deceiving one's self". There is very, very little ignorance which man can honestly claim in this respect. Just as there is a huge difference between: [b]a)[/b] not seeing something as the sin it is because you aren't looking for Christ to be glorified,

and [b]b)[/b] working out your salvation, with fear and trepidation, in the sight of God. For these, we read, [b]Romans 8:28[/b], "we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

They may stumble, they may miss the mark, yet, [b]Proverbs 3:6[/b], "In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."

Which is why I thought that "Starbucks" example was good. It took away that layer of "natural stuff" and looked in to the heart of it all, the "Why". A good example of acknowledging Him in all of your ways, too. Eh? :-P

But this does not even touch the sins which are done unintentionally and obliviously, or suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care, or through gross unfamiliarity with the scriptures.

The true test of what is in our heart, is when, "suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care" ... *fill in the blank* ... and Jesus came and said, "Are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?"

Just as the parable of the metalsmith, as to purifying gold or silver. When the heat, pressure, is applied the impurities will comeforth to the surface. Shall we curse ourselves because of the Lord's masterful work in us?

"Ah! I am being refined by Fire and all I see is the muck and the mire coming to the forefront of my heart! All I see is sin in my life!" Isn't this the way purifying begins?

Hm, think about it.

But far worse still: Through gross unfamiliarity with the Living Word.

I ask you, sir, where did David get his Psalms? Where did Job get his schooling? Where did Solomon gain his wisdom and Samson his strength?

Not from Scripture, though it does indeed testify of the Word, it will never substitute for familiarity with the Living Word ([b]John 5:39[/b]).

Even a man who has the entire Bible memorized, even analyzed and comprehensively studied, is no closer to Spirit and Truth than an unlearned fisherman. We would all do well to consider this.

I sometimes wonder if our zealous analyzing of Scripture often becomes the very "letter" that kills our faith. This again, goes back to the motive and intent of the heart. Are we trying to build up a "Tower of Bible"? We certainly have enough confusion in our doctrines to prove so! Or, is God giving the interpretation according to the riches of glory in Christ Jesus; the Spirit of our faith?

Consider that Paul refers to these members not as physical appendages, such as hands or eyes, but as lusts and sinful impulses which are properly called our own. They are distinct from the world and from the devil; they are the remaining drives and corruptions not yet banished from believers. We are now freed from their dominion and guilt. Our calling is to subdue and mortify these fleshly desires.

Well said, well said.

It is interesting to consider this truth as Paul speaks of these corrupted desires.

[b]2 Corinthians 5[/b]
1. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3. inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, [b]because we do not want to be unclothed [u]but to be clothed[/u][/b], so that what is [b]mortal will be swallowed up by life[/b].

This imagery of being found "naked" immediately takes us back to Adam and Eve. I used to have this impression; that I needed to have my desires and impulses taken out of me before God could make me clean. Rather the opposite is true! My God given desire and impulse is found naked in open shame for its "unnatural affections". What I need is not to be made void of personality but for my "nakedness" to be clothed, swallowed up, in Life; where there is boldness of purity in the Holy Spirit.

The brother making this claim was, to all appearances, completely serious and no novice. I asked him to clarify what he meant by "had not sinned". He emphatically asserted that he had not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for the whole of six months.

I purposely saved this comment for last :P

We would all do well to have very high expectations of faith, yet let us not consider ourselves more than we ought to, "but our adequacy is from God" ([b]2 Corinthians 3:5[/b]).

According to the Law of ordinances I could likely also make this same claim. I wouldn't say it was a "fool-proof" claim but certainly evidential.

However, according to the Law of Christ Jesus I would be a liar. Let every man be a liar. Your friend was likely speaking of "the sin which does so easily beset us" and not the First and Greatest Commandment and the Second Greatest Commandment which is like unto the First. Let us set these Two Commandments as the Spirit of our faith, unto the full measure of the stature of Christ Jesus; rather than this pitiful measure of "not committing sin" as at other times.

It is one thing to "turn from your wicked ways" and by far another to "seek God's Face" ([b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b]).

1 Corinthians 4
18. Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you.
19. But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, [b]not the words of those who are arrogant but their power[/b].
20. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

And this power is [i]dynamis[/i] (Strong's 1411)

[b]1)[/b] strength power, ability
a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
b) power for performing miracles
c) moral power and excellence of soul
d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
e) power and resources arising from numbers
f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

This is no simple, "I haven't committed sin", power either. Let the glory of the Lord be our Judge.

Goodness, are we not all on a website devoted to Revival and expectations of wonderous exploits of God's lovingkindness displayed openly in dynamic miracle power?

Ah, but we say "I have not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for" - length of time. Then tell me, in that length of time what miracles were done by your hands? What power was manifest to confirm your words? How many heathens were converted to the Lord in that time; not by persuasive words of wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power; so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God; so that the cross of Christ would not be made void?

Or, do we not know ...
[b]2 Chronicles 16:9[/b]
For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is pure towards Him.

If we say, we are strongly desiring God to show Himself strong in these evil days; and God says, He is desiring to show Himself strong in these evil days ...

Judges 6:13
"[...] if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, `Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us [...]"

Hm?

Surely, if anyone's heart is pure, it is the one who has "not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention" - for length of time. Correct? Or, perhaps this is a pure heart that is not towards God. (That would be an oxymoron.) What is the purpose of denying one's self and taking up your cross and following Jesus; if you aren't going to be His disciple?

He who SAVES his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my Sake, will find it unto life eternal. This is not about martyrdom, but living a crucified life in order that His life would dominate yours.....hereby... Christlike.

Very nice. If we say we are willing to die for His Name sake, then we ought to be wholly living for His Name sake; as though we had already died. To live in the same manner in which Christ died. Thank you Lord for being patient (long-suffering) with us.

The question then becomes not one of outward obedience, but of inward conformation. The goal of a child of God, God's goal Himself, is that we would be conformed to the exact living image of His Son, Jesus. These are the Sons of God. It is not the initial receiving that makes us a son or daughter, this is but the Seed, but the ultimate end to attain Him; to be conformed unto Him in reality, to love as He does, now.

Beautiful! [b]John 7:38[/b], "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "

You know, it is quite remarkable the way God works. When He told Moses, "Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them." The very first thing God required the people to make was, "They shall construct an ark [...]"

Why?

[b]Exodus 25[/b]
21. "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you.
22. "[b]There I will meet with you[/b] [...]"

He began first with the innermost and most important piece of furniture. Is it no different today, when we are born-again? But, alas, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!"

Thus, our Lord bid the disciples to tarry until they were undued, clothed (there is that imagery again), with power from on high. Only then would they be made witnesses of Christ Jesus unto the world.

Tozer put it this way, as preaching to a crowd of preachers...."You are the FLESH!" I am the flesh, and I must die, that he could live.

I love Tozer! What sermon was this, that I might hear it?

John the Babtist understood this first, and it was stated by our Lord that none greater arose on Earth born of a woman, than he.....John said so simply about this; ..."He must increase, and I must decrease."

Is it not also true: When He increases, I increase in Him? The proud exalt themselves, but God Himself exalts the humble!

I must decrease from the way that seems right to me and increase in The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

[b]Matthew 11:11[/b]
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! [b]Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he[/b]."

How poorly we compare to one, John the Baptist, who Jesus declares is less than even the least in Christ's kingdom! Lord, give us Pentecost!

Hi all,

I don't have anything to add here. I just wanted to note after returning from my time away I took time to review everyone's thoughtful posts.

Blessings,

MC