Christian Leaders Meet Privately with Obama (article)

[url=http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080611/32771_Christian_Leaders_Meet_Privately_with_Obama.htm]Christian Leaders Meet Privately with Obama[/url]

- Read it, maybe you will wanna throw up like i did.

Truly a shame that these "leaders" have a discussion and the contents are private ?

It angers me to see such stupidity, a "Christian" candidate that is pro abortion and gay rights ? i guess people forget that God doesnt care about our economy and will drive this plane called America to the ground for the sake of our salvation.

"Mark DeMoss, a spokesman for the Rev. Franklin Graham, said Graham attended and asked Obama whether "he thought Jesus was the way to God, or merely a way." DeMoss declined to discuss Obama's response." - a bunch of sissies

Politicians... modern day corrupted temple authority.

its truly a shame but i have come to the conclusion that most people are masochists, they like to be beat to the ground but i pray everyday that when my tongue or actions slip may the Lord be the one to give me the beat down not the devil.

i just pray for this country because i saw mine ripped apart by a communist regime (Cuba).

This is why the news is so vexing to modern life. Let's run a story about a private meeting with evangelicals. There were probably 15 undisclosed meetings with Obama that day and 12 more today...but the one with Christians becomes a news story.

It's what they do. For instance, does anyone breathing right now not know the price of gasoline this very minute? I pass two dozen filling stations with big bold signs along the road every day to work! And yet, where the price of gas is at, is a daily top 'news story', somehow managing to fill paragraphs of text and hours of airtime. "Special report: Gas price record reaches $4 a gallon." and "New high surpasses the previous record of $3.989 set Thursday."

Why do you think this happens? Because we don't know what the price of gas is without the news people informing us? Hardly. :roll:

MC

If only words could express my hatred for such advertisement i would end up re-writting a modern day version of sinners in the hands of an angry God >

It is grievous, isn't it brother.

Truly is man, it makes you feel like weeping.

Where did the righteous men of God that fought with blood, sweat and tears go ? who didnt care about popularity or polictics.

now all that we have left is men is expensive suites, nice cars and huge buildings that love the lime light.

it keeps reminding me of Greg's post on Agony by Leonard Ravenhill in which he says that "preaching is not a profession, its a passion" and whoever doesnt feel that FIRE inside them needs to go back to their day job.

coley wrote:
Church representation in state affairs will be measured in the prayer closet not in the oval office.

Amen.

We forget that men resolve nothing but God resolves everything and it is the lack of "leaving it to devine intervention" that this world suffers from.

We pray and we pray but if the Devil gives us an opportunity we forge resolutions with impatience.

It is our lack of trust in our own prayers that i believe cause men to resolve spiritual problems with worldly resolutions like politics and advertising.

May the Lord have mercy on us.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13193&commentView=itemComments]A Spititual Voting Both[/url]

I'm not in any way comparing Obama to Nazi's or Communists

Why not? He and his party, along with the feminists, PLATFORM on the slaughter of the innocents...to the tune of 1.6 million a year in this country alone...those numbers are greater than Hitler and Stalin and Khan put together. The thinking is more disgusting and twisted than those monsters when we murder the unborn because we see them as a "punishment" (Quoting the Ill. senator)

FYI...Obama supports partial birth abortion, including "failed" abortions where the doctors can be authorized to leave a fully-born infant on the table to die. I have no qualms calling him a Nazi...or Molech if you prefer.

Hi everyone.

When Daniel stood before king Nebuchadnezzar(to interpret his dream), who had before put Daniel's friends into a furnace to burn them alive, he did not use the opportunity to rail against the king, or bring accusations against him, but called him 'lord.' This account is in Daniel chapter 4.

I think there is a danger that the things we say about our leaders are being cast upon God himself. Because the scriptures teach that He gives rulers their authority.

"This matter [i]is[/i] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

- Daniel 4:19(KJV)

Pastor Richard Wurmbrand spent 14 years in a communist prison for his outspoken testimony of Christ. If I recall this correctly, he spent this time in a subterranean prison that was underneath the palace of the communist dictator. I have listened to his messages here on SI many times, and I do not recall hearing him speak evil about the dictator whose palace sat upon his torture cell.

Some thoughts, and wish you all well,

Chris

By the way, if any are interested, Pastor Wurmbrand's messages on SI are available [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=50]here[/url]

[i]At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus, And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife. For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.[/i] Mat 14:1-5

[i]And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,

Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.[/i] Luk 3:15-20

As policy has it here on this forum the political realm is watched very closely and in large part frowned upon for a whole variety of reasons. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14144&forum=13&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1] MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

With that in mind, I appeal to John The Baptist above for the apparent waffling that has and is taking place with this collusion and ... gobbledygook. What utter nonsense this all is.

Received the following yesterday in my in-box:

[url=http://www.strangreport.com/]Obama's "off-the-record" meeting with Christian leaders [/url]

What is the point in speaking "off-the-record" in partiality? It is on the level of "I can't really tell you what was said, but I will tell you what wasn't said about what was said?" Such nonsense!

Forget the politics of this madness and turn this back upon those so called leaders of present day Christianity. Abortion, better defined as murder. Beginning and end of story. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

It is a clever and diabolical thing that not only the world but even the 'Church' has allowed this to be termed an "issue" so it can be squared and quartered up against and along side all the other "issues" as one of many, as comparable and compatible to all the others. That it can be pushed aside, 'discussed' and left as to move on to the next ...

For whatever reason I have had this thought repeating itself back into my hearing; Anyone still remember [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates]Andrea Yates[/url]? What difference, better, why was she not set free for doing the very same thing that goes on by the millions every year in this country and countries across the world? Both killed their innocent children and yet only one is considered insane? Is it hyperbole? An exaggeration? Ridiculous?

So much more could be said and if anything, anything at all that might be said it is the [i]mindset[/i] of Christians in this hour and those supposed leaders that speak for Her, for the Church, that is practically flabbergasting. It comes back again to conscience and I must wonder just what it has been given over to ...

Not sure what to make of J. Lee Grady sometimes. Being that he is the editor of the same that was attended to by his boss ... Would to God that he (Grady) would speak more to the 'prophetic' nonsense that is churned out from his employer and must wonder if he doesn't peruse this very site itself sometimes ... But will let his own words speak; (This arrived just prior to the other yesterday).

[b]Obama, Jakes and the “Goose Bump” Factor[/b]

What kind of vibes did you feel when Barack Obama claimed the Democratic nomination?

Now that Hillary Clinton’s campaign has been kicked to the curb, the nation’s most powerful Democrat is steamrolling his way to the White House. The Obama machine is surging ahead with support from a huge army of young volunteers. And since John McCain isn’t doing much yet to attract the fractured evangelical voting bloc, Sen. Barack Hussein Obama will probably turn red states into blue ones in November.

A lot of people are excited about that possibility, including the nation’s most prominent African-American preacher, T.D. Jakes of Dallas. In a gushing endorsement, he told CNN last week that he “watched with visible goose bumps” as Obama claimed his party’s nomination. “This is not just a victory for African-Americans,” Jakes wrote, “it is a victory for democracy that proves that our country provides possibilities for all people.”

I’ll say amen to the fact that we are finally putting racism behind us. But I must admit that the goose bumps I felt last week were different from the ones Jakes experienced. I sensed sadness, and a bit of dread, as I realized that the people of the United States are hellbent on electing another leader who has no problem with killing unborn babies.

“It baffles me that liberals who pride themselves on being racially sensitive can get away with supporting a practice that destroys black families.”

Sorry for being so old-fashioned, but I think abortion is still a relevant issue.

Many Christians today say it’s politically impossible to elect a pro-life candidate. They’ve changed the channel. Opposing abortion is, like, so 1980s. Many young Christian voters love to quote the line that says, “There are other issues that are just as important”— listing the environment, food programs and ending the war in Iraq as the trendy new evangelical agenda.

At the risk of seeming out of touch with our Sex in the City culture, I’d like to mention three things to those Christians who are already plastering their cars with Obama bumper stickers:

1. Maintaining the current policy on abortion is not “change.” Obama promises change every time he makes a speech. He’s out to change our economy, our health care system and our foreign policy. He’s a one-man change agent. Yet whenever he has voted on the abortion issue, all he’s done is protect the right to kill our most vulnerable citizens. No innovation here. All he offers is the same old same old.

Everyone on Capitol Hill knows Obama is a radical when it comes to abortion policy. He opposed a ban on partial-birth abortion (a clinical term for stabbing a baby in the neck when his arms, legs and torso are already outside the mother); then he criticized the Supreme Court’s decision to uphold that ban. While an Illinois lawmaker, Obama opposed a bill that would have prevented the killing of an infant born alive during an abortion.

To top that off, Obama said in April that if his young daughters got pregnant out of wedlock, he didn’t want them to be “punished with a baby.” In other words, he wants the abortion industry to thrive.

2. Abortion is racist. African-American pastor Wellington Boone pointed out in an article in Charisma last month that 36 percent of all abortions in the United States are performed on black women—even though they make up only 12 percent of the population. And Obama is OK with that?

It baffles me that liberals who pride themselves on being racially sensitive can get away with supporting a practice that destroys black families. It’s equally baffling that when pro-life African-American politicians enter the political arena they are ignored rather than cheered with Obamaesque fervor. So not only do we kill black babies; we also silence black leaders who don’t worship at the altar of Molech.

3. Abortion contradicts the essence of Christianity. I have dialogued with young Christian voters who say they are supporting Obama because they believe he will bring justice to poor people who’ve never achieved the American dream. Who are we fooling with this empty talk about justice? Hello? The God of justice abhors the slaughter of unborn babies!

Many Christians who support Obama do so because he opposes the Iraq war. I respect their position about a muddled conflict that has lasted too long. But has anybody done the math?

The number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in Iraq since 2002 currently stands at 4,092. Yet a slightly smaller number of unborn babies, approximately 3,900, die every day in this country because of abortion. Currently we kill 1.4 million babies a year. Since abortion was legalized we’ve snuffed out more babies than the entire populations of Iraq, Israel and Jordan.

That’s more than 40 million people. It’s a holocaust we deny ever happened.

The mantra of the 2008 Democratic contest has been “every vote counts.” Yet no one, including Obama, is talking about the rights of an unborn infant whose skull is about to be stabbed with scissors or whose brains are about to be sucked out with a vacuum tube. His tiny hands—complete with fingernails by 14 weeks—will certainly never be allowed to press a button in a ballot booth. That gives me goose bumps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do note the emphesis if it is not apparent enough. The matter is abortion, not politics nor the so called 'politics' thereof.

We talk often of Revival here in this setting and it is often termed "Awakening" ...

"The Revival Hymn"
______________________________________________________________________

(Ian Paisley)

[i]The church of Jesus Christ is largely sleeping, like a great bedroom and you have all the Christians in bed and they’re all sleeping ... and they’re saying "Please, don't wake me up! I want to sleep on!" And of course when God starts to operate a revival people cannot sleep, you can't sleep in church when the Spirit of God awakes the people. Look at the 1st verse of this 52nd chapter..."Awake! Awake! Put on strength!" Wake it up! You're sleepy Christians! Awake thou that sleepeth, Arise from the dead! Christ will give you life![/i]

It’s equally baffling that when pro-life African-American politicians enter the political arena they are ignored rather than cheered with Obamaesque fervor.

This is a very real point. The same is true for pro-life women. They aren't welcome. There is something deeper going on here then cries for social justice or ending the war in Iraq. Man is a clever enough creature to hide behind race, or rights, or generation gaps, party loyalties, or whatever symbol he can leverage...but there are subterranean sewers of demonic bile running beneath this 'hopeful' rhetoric that idolizes human nature.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

"...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I was listening to John Piper yesterday. He observed that many Christians are terribly fearful of the possibility of a nuclear holocaust, yet are hardly mindful of the certainty of the Day of the Lord that will be a far worse holocaust.

Thanks Mike. I needed the spinal adjustment.

MC

Hi Mike…

I appreciate your post. I have long wrestled with any sort of involvement in “politics.” I have heard so many believers willing to share their ideas concerning the limits of how they believe a Christian should interact (usually presented as though those ideas came straight from God himself, rather than distinguishing these as ideas about what [i]they believe[/i] the Bible says). To me, such involvement does not reflect a desire to be a part of this world’s system. It simply wants to use the medium (government) to express “holy anger” and spiritual “common sense” regarding a number of issues that are constantly pushed by certain groups in this nation. Of course, chief amongst these is the sin of [u]abortion[/u].

Abortion will probably continue in the United States for some time. Why? For one, the media reports on it as though anyone who is opposed to abortion is a “crazy fanatic” who is “not based in reality.” In truth, however, abortion is restricted or illegal in a majority of the nations of the world. In fact, only a handful of nations permit abortion as a means of birth control (with the greatest number coming from the United States and Canada). Here is a [url=http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02map.htm]current map[/url] that reflects the abortion laws of the world.

However, abortion will continue because those who are most opposed to it are often the ones most unwilling to speak out. Christians often remain silent in the Athenian forum of this nation’s policies. Why? This can be because of fear (those who don’t want to be ostracized for their views). It can be that some simply feel that it is unbiblical to involve one’s self with the “affairs of this world” (although they often are the first people to drive on public roads, use tax deductions, cash tax rebate checks or utilize other “government” perks).

Mike, your post reminded me of Keith Green’s song, “[i]A Billion Starving People[/i].”

[b]Verse 1[/b]
I find it hard to turn away, a billion starving people,
But what can one do, I've heard you say - you can't save someone's life
I want to save a life today, I want to get someone close with my Father.
Be them the bread of life today, I want to help them get stronger, help them last longer
And give them a chance to see Jesus.

[b]Verse 2[/b]
I find it hard to just ignore, the murdered unborn children,
Yes times have changed, but still God warns, you shall not take a life.
I want to save a life today, I want to keep one alive for my Father,
Who will avenge the blood!
Of weak and helpless ones someday - whose lives are spilled out like water,
Lambs in the slaughter, and each one is handmade by Jesus.

Abortion is the greatest holocaust in the history of the world. The Shoah resulted in the deaths of approximately 6 Million Jews (along with another 4 Million other groups) over a period of several years during WWII. Stalin killed approximately 10 Million in his “purges.” A couple of years ago, I attended a University seminar about “genocide.” In the seminar, the panelists were discussing how international organizations have trouble deciding upon a definition of “genocide.” Relief agencies could not help in some situations in Africa simply because the circumstances did not affect the deaths of at least 1 Million people who were targeted based upon a particular characteristic of the victim group (the current accepted definition of “genocide”). Critics argued that the definition ignores smaller groups and tribes that do not number 1 Million yet have been targeted based upon their race, religion, culture or AGE. Yet abortion has kills 1.4 Million unborn babies EVERY YEAR! Most of these murdered children are targeted solely because of the “inconvenience” that they could cause to the mother. Ironically, 35 years of abortion in the United States has killed more individuals than all of the wars of the world combined in the past 1000 years! A single year of abortion deaths in the United States (approximately 1.4 Million) is greater than all of the combined deaths from [url=http://www.militaryfactory.com/american_war_deaths.asp]every war in the United States’ history[/url] (back to the Revolutionary War)! Yet the Left screams to end a war in Iraq because of the “great loss of life to American troops” while they applaud and fight for the right to kill over a million babies each year. This is devilish hypocrisy!

In a political sense, Barack Obama would be the best thing to ever happen to the abortion industry. Not only does he fully support abortion in every circumstance, but he is further to the left on the matter than most liberals! While an Illinois state legislator, Obama supported partial birth abortion. He even supported “secret abortions” for little girls as young as 10 years old without their parents EVERY finding out (paid for by tax dollars while the girls are “at school”). He was the only state senator to oppose extending insurance coverage to unborn babies (for prenatal operations and health care) simply because he said that it would consider an unborn child a “human being” (which would result in the possibility of extending “due process” and “equal protection” via the 14th Amendment of the Constitution – the same Amendment used to establish the “right of privacy” that legalized abortion in 1973’s [i]Roe v. Wade[/i]). In addition, Obama has met with nearly every abortion rights groups in the nation! He has promised to continue supporting them and to do what he can to federally fund abortions and to make it easily assessable to the poor via Medicare.

The media is reporting on Obama like his victory in November is already a foregone conclusion. However, the polls are remarkably close. In fact, if the election were held today – Obama would win the popular vote by a 4% margin, but would LOST in the Electoral College by approximately 12 votes. As we know from the 2000 Presidential Election, it is the Electoral College that determines the victor. Some states are extremely close (such as Ohio and Pennsylvania). One of Obama’s tactics has been to flood the media (print [such as Letters to the Editor], the Internet, radio talk shows, etc… by those who claim to be “Republicans” or “Conservatives” who have decided to vote for Obama. In addition, Obama has attempted to imply that Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians are either satisfied with him – or that they simply do not like Senator John McCain. In fact, they have tried to paint McCain as “too liberal” for the Republican Party (imagine that – coming from the most liberal candidate ever endorsed by a major party!). While McCain is certainly not the best choice for America, he is by far the better of the two choices for unborn babies.

I don’t mean for this to sound “political” – although it can be construed that way in the minds of some. My involvement in voting isn’t to be construed as “bowing my knee” to the “affairs of this world.” Rather, it is a result of my feeling a need to step in when I see a wrong. “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people“(Proverbs 14:34). I find it difficult to ignore terrible injustice. If I were to see a woman being brutalized on the side of a road by a man, I think that I would step in to stop it. I think that even the most ardent non-involvement advocate would find it difficult (if not impossible) to simply watch as a family member or neighbor is brutalized. Yet God has blessed us by placing us within the temporary bounds of the nations from which we dwell. These unborn children and their mothers are my “neighbors.” I don’t believe that I would try to convert the government into a Christian theocracy. Rather, I can participate in this temporary country with the sole purpose of sharing Christ Jesus while doing what I think is best for my family and neighbors.

Paul used his temporary citizenship and government-created laws to bring the Gospel to Rome. I see my vote as an opportunity to use my voice in a manner similar to Jesus at the Temple court yard. I see my involvement as a means to provide adequately for those around me – especially those of my own house. It is not bowing my knee to the kingdoms of this world. Rather, it is bowing my knee to God with the windows open in full uncompromising view of the world around me. It is proclaiming truth in all things – including my votes. It is refusing to stand by silently as the men who want to rule in unrighteousness try to dismiss the manifest holiness of God. It is Paul invoking his citizenship to “appeal unto Caesar.” It is the Ten Boom’s constructing a “hiding place” for those oppressed by their government. It is Brother Andrew obtaining a passport in order to take Bibles into restricted nations. It is Richard Wurmbrand testifying before Congress with his shirt off in order to urge the United States to act on behalf of the underground, persecuted Church abroad. It is proclaiming the truth by making the most of every opportunity provided for us in our temporary citizenship (including our votes). It is using this world as a footstool to lift our Lord up so that the entire world can see.

It is an attempt to avoid sitting idle and merely watch the continued holocaust of unborn children by a certain countryman who wishes to be our elected President.

Could a sailor sit by idle if he heard a drowning cry?
Could a doctor sit in comfort and just watch the patient die?
Could a fireman stand aside, watch people burn and lend no hand?
Can we sit at ease in church with the world around us damned?
- Leonard Ravenhill

The number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in Iraq since 2002 currently stands at 4,092. Yet a slightly smaller number of unborn babies, approximately 3,900, die every day in this country because of abortion. Currently we kill 1.4 million babies a year. Since abortion was legalized we’ve snuffed out more babies than the entire populations of Iraq, Israel and Jordan.

That’s more than 40 million people. It’s a holocaust we deny ever happened.

How can a true believer in Christ not weep over this?

Christians and the church have been under the delusion that the voting booth is the way to change when they spend more time there than in their prayer closets.

Colely,

Amen on your call to repentance and payer. I hope we aren't becoming immune to this call. The danger of not heeding the call, is that it becomes part of our religious social ritual whenever we discuss these things, and then we are done for.

I don't think thread is about which party to vote for. I think the conversation has moved to the place of despairing over both parties.

(edited for mercy and brevity :-) )

MC

But I can't blame one party or another with the ills of our society. Sin is sin and both parties engage in the practice...

I am not endorsing a party here. But we are talking about the Democratic party as a whole CHAMPIONING the slaughter of the innocents while spewing about like they actually care about civil rights, social justice, etc. When you support infanticide, it shows your mindset on human life and where your priorities lie. It's not just "one issue"...it is a mindset and culture. It impacts your thinking on every other "issue," as I will comment on in a minute. Of course there are pro-life democrats and pro-infanticide republicans, but the fact remains that the DNC EQUATES the name "democrat" with "abortion", and publishes it proudly.

One other comment on Obama's "if my daughters make a mistake (meaning premarital sex), I don't want them to have to be punished with a baby": not only does he equate pregnancy and children with punishment, when God says they are a blessing, but he is also saying he believes people should not have to face the consequences of their decisions. They can just kill the evidence and continue living their life free of guilt and justice. What does this say about his views on criminal justice, civil justice, and personal responsibility? The logical conclusion of this results in chaos, anarchy, selfishness to the extreme, and eventually the downfall of a society.

On your quote "sin is sin"...no it's not. All sins are NOT created equal. Scripture very plainly testifies to that fact.

Hi everyone,

Brother Mike,

Isn't John the Baptist is a great example of a man sent by God speaking under God's authority!

He was a man sent from God(John 1:6).

Was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb(Luke 1:15).

Testified to publicly by the Son of God(Matthew 11:11).

Prophesied of by the prophets(Malachi 3:1, Isaiah 40:3).

And came in the spirit and power of Elijah(Luke 1:17).

"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [i]unto him[/i]."

- John 3:34(KJV)

"And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men [i]and[/i] brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day. And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, [i]thou[/i] whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."

Acts 23:1-5(KJV)

[i]...I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people[/i]

Hi again all.

I was wondering if any of you know of some passages in the scriptures where the Apostles show us how to rail against our leaders and lament and bemoan the evils of our society and corrupt politicians.

I mean, so that we can have a godly example of how to do it here amongst each other.

Hi Brothertom,

Thank you for your response to me.

Brothertom, about this,

"You errently assume that Obama is in any way associated with holiness or the priesthood of Jesus, and furthermore that we should submit to them or him in anyway as my leader."

My intention in qouting the passage from Acts was to bring to view Paul's response to being confronted with having spoken evil against the ruler of his people, the Jews. While the Lord Jesus was now the High Priest over God's people, I think this shows that Paul still acknowledged the visible position of authority that Ananias had)that he was at least seen by the people as having it). And he(Paul) acknowledged his wrong.

"Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people."

- Exodus 22:28(KJV)

According to Strong's, the word translated 'gods' here is

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

John Gill has on this passage the following:

"...civil magistrates, the judges of the land, and the like, are meant, who are powers ordained of God, are in his stead, and represent him, and therefore respect should be shown them; nor should they be treated with any degree of slight and contempt, which may discourage and intimidate them, and deter them from the execution of their office"

Compare the use of this word translated gods, for instance, with Psalm 82.

Paul, the Apostle writes in Romans chapter 13

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

- Romans 13:1-2(KJV)

I do think we are to submit to the authority of the rulers of our land(as citizens) in as much as they do not require of us to do something which is contrary to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. And I do think that would include giving them due benevolence and respect(1 Peter 2:17) for the authority that they have, from God Himself.

I think we can consider Daniel as an example of this. I had posted the following before in this thread; I'd like to copy it here again rather than type it over:

"When Daniel stood before king Nebuchadnezzar(to interpret his dream), who had before put Daniel's friends into a furnace to burn them alive, he did not use the opportunity to rail against the king, or bring accusations against him, but called him 'lord.' This account is in Daniel chapter 4."

Brothertom, you went on to say,

"Just because he was elected as a Senator doesn't give him a pass as whether he is of antichrist or not..."

It was this Nebuchadnezzer, who Daniel calls 'lord', that had prior to this made a huge image of gold and made a decree that the peoples and languages under his authority come and bow down to it. I'm not suggesting that Daniel or his friends ever submitted to do anything evil which the king had commanded, but neither does he speak evil of him, or rail against him.

In fact, when he is shown by God that judgment had come upon him(through understanding the dream), he actually expresses the sentiment that the dream be rather unto the king's enemies(Daniel 4:19).

John the Baptist was sent by God. And did not speak on his own authority.

And the Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000]...I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. [/color][/b]

- John 12:49(KJV)

Chris

Hi everyone.

I had mentioned before Pastor Wurmbrand and I thought of sharing one of the messages available on SI here with you all.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4522&commentView=itemComments]Church Triumphant [/url]

Dear brother Chris,

Isn't John the Baptist is a great example of a man sent by God speaking under God's authority!

Brother, can see where you are coming from as you go on. Perhaps you make the point better for me; Are there not any men sent from God that might speak in like fashion?

I was wondering if any of you know of some passages in the scriptures where the Apostles show us how to rail against our leaders and lament and bemoan the evils of our society and corrupt politicians.

A bit terse there brother ... They are not our leaders. Not the senator nor the invitees. They might have had the greatest opportunity to speak as one voice as what the Church is and believes but the whole thing just smacks of compromise and coziness, of the fear of man ... Hard to tell when it is so clouded in off the record rhetoric, but I was speaking towards that as well.

This is the silent, one sided war against the helpless and it has been categorized as an issue. All the verbiage in the world is not enough to speak of it's ghastliness, all the pacifism combined about wars and self-defense, all the sheer horrors of the procedures, all that has even been said here by comparisons to all the wars and the tally's ...

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

and we are engaged in this cheap and senseless discussion.

And you have just engaged yourself as well.

Is it still cheap and senseless?

I believe that many people out there hate the guy because he is a black man at the end of the day, not a mixed-half white, half black man. I am not suggesting any of you are by any stretch, but people as a whole must get over it.

And with that notion so goes the coloring of your perspective and presumptions. This is obviously an incorrect assumption as the potential next president of this country, if this was truly the case he would never had made it this far.

If you have read through the concerns expressed here they are towards ideology and by extension character, and for my part I am speaking towards that of our own stripe more than anything.

Cheap and senseless ... The mantra of abortion

[i]And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.[/i] Hos 4:9

All the people I referenced were people of the so-called church, it had nothing to do with affilitation and everything to do with hypocrisy in the church when they claim to represent Christ then show their true nature when they get to a place of responsibility or influence.

The problem is that the church is acting in like manner.

Precisely ...

Are we in our prayer closets touching the Throne of God like Daniel, or are we having closed door meetings and engaging in rhetoric about how horrible all this is and what it will lead to if our leadership doesn't wake up?

Wondering if that should be a "and" rather than an "or" ? If I may;

Are we driven to prayer due to how horrible this all is and what it will lead to if our leadership doesn't wake up.

[i]like people like priest[/i]

Wondering if that should be a "and" rather than an "or" ?

I think this is one of the most important points we can take away here.

MC

Brothertom,

Right after I had posted that bit about the Puritans, I thought it might be distracting so I removed it...but not before you grabbed some of it!

MC

Hi brother Mike and thank you for your response.

Brother Mike, I do think that Senator Obahma is a national leader for us(as citizens of the US), and especially now since he is in a highly visible position of being a candidate for President.

Because of this, I think we have to take great care in how we speak about him, or other leaders, in speaking out against evil in our society. One passage in particular that comes to mind is 2Peter 2:9-11.

"Hard to tell when it is so clouded in off the record rhetoric..."

Isn't this even more reason to exercise caution in our reponse though(Proverbs 18:13)?

I had shared the message from pastor Wurmbrand before. I think some of the stories there can be encouraging to us here, in showing how believers there have responded and lived in the face of evil.

Grace and peace to all in Christ.

Dear Chris,

Brother thank you for being faithful to keep these things before us. I know them as well and generally am just as inclined to bring them forth, to remembrance in these kinds of discussions.

Brother Mike, I do think that Senator Obahma is a national leader for us(as citizens of the US), and especially now since he is in a highly visible position of being a candidate for President.

But he is not yet a national leader and I pray he does not become one with the ideology he holds and will forward. The emphasis I was drawing attention to is towards those speaking in 'our' stead for lack of a better term, and perhaps that presents something of a problem in speaking out loud in wonder, as a reaction towards that which was brought about by these articles.

Rather than rehash it all and I do wish to beg off this now as I see it turning out into just more possible misconceptions ... A couple of notations. The senator invited them for the purpose of ... however it was crafted and again this being highly political we can all draw our own conclusions and possible motivations if we wish.

If I could be really blunt about it, it seems there is something in itself that is spurious, that it is something of merit just to be invited to such an inquiry, can I just say, big deal? Having already the knowledge of his platforms and flattering\\faltering faith and what he proposes to uphold in murdering the innocents that there is no man to bring a sharp two edged sword to his conscience when such a grand opportunity has been handed to them on a silver platter? Yes the allusions to John the Baptist again.

To put it another way, if this is truly a tapping into the collective conscience of Christianity, where was something of like manner in the days of bill's being presented in support (or denial) of the yet to be born. On the unspeakable horrors of 'partial birth abortions' and so forth? No, this is politically motived and those spokesman cannot be that gullible not to know it, can they?

Again and last, it is the waffling and seemingly chumminess of it all that bothers. Remember, they do not force themselves upon him to be heard but were invitees. If this was all to be off the record, then where is integrity of it? That I found just as bothersome and confusing if not dishonest ...

There is enough angles that this could be looked at that it is difficult to express them all, the verses come from all directions; What fellowship has darkness with light? The cup of the Lord and the cup of demons? In other words, and towards that expressed by others, yourself and even myself so often here ... what business do we even have in these political forays other than to bring God's word emphatically, forcefully and faithfully to the situation?

Brother it just seems to be a whole different dichotomy that cannot be compared to Paul's regret of speaking out of place to the high priest, we are not under that type of government and further more one must wonder just how Paul might have reacted if he was invited to a similar situation that is before us.

Criticizing the 'leaders' of our own stripe ... It does give me pause I must admit and I think the reaction here is indeed limited because we do not know what all was said and that is the problem that I keep coming back around to redundantly. It is a reaction to what was leaked, that it was leaked and maybe because of all this leakiness,... it is just a mess.

Hi everyone.

Over the weekend I came across a group of people preaching, and because of some things I had heard them say before, I questioned them about whether it was permissible for Christians to bring accusations against their leaders(of government). And during our exchange the speaker said different things about the President, to accuse him.

Later that night, as I was heading to the train station to go home I came across a sign that had been placed on a pole along the street, advertising a speech about the unjust authority of the State, or how the philosophical idea of a State authority was wrong.

Those are two responses.

I have thought about the story that Pastor Wurmbrand tells in the message I shared here with you all, of an old Christian woman in Communist Russia, whose son had been tortured and killed by the communists. And her response to the communist officer that confronted her while she was praying in the snow.

I just recently got a book that he had published under a pseudonym. The book is called ' Jesus - Freind to Terrorists' and I started reading it today on the bus ride home. I was struck by this story he tells of a Christian in Japan who had started the trade union movement there and how he diffused a possible strike by telling the workers to

'"Rather, send a delegation to the president of the comapny, bow politely before him, and say 'we regret that we were so heartless as not to realise the difficulties through which you are passing. Our children are used to deprivations, while your's aren't. We will gladly work for you without taking any salary just to show you our faithfulness to the enterprise."'

Maybe there is some similar radical way in which the Lord Jesus wants to triumph here, through us also.

Your logic, is certainly not Christian, in this matter. I'm not sure what it is.

Brothertom,

Don't jump to conclusions brother. Chris has been an asset to this community for a long time and that is only by way of mention.

He can certainly defend himself but I think you may be pouring more into this than what he is intending.

Hi Brothertom,

Brothertom, about this,

'Who should we submit to?...'

I had written something before in this thread and I would like if I may to post it again in reply here:

"I do think we are to submit to the authority of the rulers of our land(as citizens) in as much as they do not require of us to do something which is contrary to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. And I do think that would include giving them due benevolence and respect(1 Peter 2:17) for the authority that they have, from God Himself."

My concern here is that we do not expose ourselves to condemnation in the things we say publicly about others, or our leaders in government especially.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [i]are they[/i], self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

- 2 Peter 2:9-12(KJV)

[i]...they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities[/i]

[i]...angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.[/i]

According to Strong's, the word translated 'speak evil' here is:

G987
βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
blas-fay-meh'-o
From G989; to vilify; specifically to speak impiously: - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.

Of 'railing', that it is

G989
βλάσφημος
blasphēmos
blas'-fay-mos
From a derivative of G984 and G5345; scurrilous, that is, calumnious (against man), or (specifically) impious (against God): - blasphemer (-mous), railing.

And accusation, that it is

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

I do think that the scripture teaches that men in authority in goverment are in a place of high honor, even if they do not use the authority rightly(Dan 4:36, 17, 1 Pet 2:17).

EDIT: 'rightly' or I should say, even if they do not use that authority rightly in every way.

John Gill says of the phrase [i]honour the king[/i] in 1 Peter 2:17(taken from e-sword)

[b]honour the king[/b]; Caesar, the Roman emperor, though a wicked, persecuting Nero, and so any other king or governor; who, so far as he acts the part of a civil magistrate, preserves the peace, the property, and liberty of his subjects, is a terror to evil works, and an encourager of good ones, and rules according to the laws of God, and civil society, is deserving of great honour and esteem from men; and which is to be shown by speaking well of him; by a cheerful subjection to him; by an observance of the laws, and by payment of tribute, and doing everything to make him easy, and honourable in his government: advice much like this is given by Isocrates (f),