Women teaching?

I recently entered a discussion with a church leader about women teaching and preaching. I checked recent posts for duplicates but could not find any so I am starting this one.

1. Cor 14: 33-38
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]

1 Timothy 2:9-15
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
From these and other verses in the bible I understand that women should not teach in church meetings where men are present and also hold no office as elders or deacons.
I still believe that women can do a lot in God’s kingdom and that there are inexhaustible and wonderful opportunities for them to serve in and outside the body of Christ.
These verses appear very plain to me, yet there are many leaders and scholars that believe that women can teach men and can be leaders. I do not trust theologians just because they are theologians and there are many who twist the scriptures. I personally feel uncomfortable to listen to a women teaching regardless how skillful or annointed her message.

Any comments? May the storm break loose.

narrowpath

May the storm break loose indeed! You have just started one.

Despite the scriptures you have used, and they are very clear, people will use reasoning, analogy, supposition etc, to defend their position. Whatever that position may be.

Let battle commence.

i agree completely with Krispy.

a long time ago i was to give a lesson on this and well it has always been a controversial topic, so i prayed for a while and waited for God to give me a clear answer in order to get a "go" to teach on it and he did.

women should not teach over men, it is not correct for a Woman to pastor and in a way command a church but when she goes home she is submissive to her husband. This is just one thought out of many on the subject but the scriptures are very clear and the answer i got from the Lord forever convicted me on the subject.

This doesn't require waiting on the Lord to give some new revelation.

The answer is settled in the Scriptures brought up in the original post.

Women, while they are not are slaves, are not to teach in the church.

As Krispy, Taylor, and of few others have said, and even more importantly, the Bible itself with the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul in the noted Scriptures-the scriptures make this topic/issue very plain-women were not to teach,preach, or lead the Church- This is true whether you participate in the instutionalized organization of Christianity, or whether you partake the in the more organic-house church.

I agree 100% with what Krispy, Taylor, and Alf said, because what they all said is of the Holy Scripture.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ga 3:28
There is neither male nor female. Neither the male nor the female have any peculiar advantages for salvation. There are no favours shown on account of sex. Both sexes are, in this respect, on a level. This does not mean, of course, that the sexes are to be regarded as in all respects equal; nor can it mean that the two sexes may not have peculiar duties and privileges in other respects. It does not prove that one of the sexes may not perform important offices in the church, which would not be proper for the other. It does not prove that the duties of the ministry are to be performed by the female sex; nor that the various duties of domestic life, nor the various offices of society, should be performed without any reference to the distinction of sex. The interpretation should be confined to the matter under consideration; and the passage proves only that in regard to salvation they are on a level. One sex is not to be regarded as peculiarly the favourite of heaven, and the other to be excluded. Christianity thus elevates the female sex to an equality with the male, on the most important of all interests; and it has in this way made most important changes in the world wherever it has prevailed. Everywhere but in connexion with the Christian religion, woman has been degraded. She has been kept in ignorance. She has been treated as an inferior in all respects. She has been doomed to unpitied drudgery, and ignorance, and toil. So she was among the ancient Greeks and Romans; so she is among the savages of America; so she is in China, and India, and in the islands of the sea; so she is regarded in the Koran, and in all Mohammedan countries. It is Christianity alone which has elevated her; and nowhere on earth does man regard the mother of his children as an intelligent companion and friend, except where the influence of the Christian religion has been felt. At the communion table, at the foot of the cross, and in the hopes of heaven, she is on a level with man; and this fact diffuses a mild, and purifying, and elevating influence over all the relations of life. Woman has been raised from deep degradation by the influence of Christianity; and, let me add, she has everywhere acknowledged the debt of gratitude, and devoted herself, as under a deep sense of obligation, to lessening the burdens of humanity, and to the work of elevating the degraded, instructing the ignorant, and comforting the afflicted, all over the world. Never has a debt been better repaid, or the advantages of elevating one portion of the race been more apparent.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ac 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

The apostle Paul mentions several women who were helpers with him at the close of his letters and one even had a house church.

In Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Acts 18:26
They took him unto them - This eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, who was even a public teacher, was not ashamed to be indebted to the instructions of a Christian woman, in matters that not only concerned his own salvation, but also the work of the ministry, in which he was engaged. It is disgraceful to a man to be ignorant, when he may acquire wisdom; but it is no disgrace to acquire wisdom from the meanest person or thing. The adage is good: Despise not advice, even of the meanest: the gaggling of geese preserved the Roman state.

It is clear from scripture that we all need to (including myself) pray and study the word more before we come to a conclusion about God's children regardless of the color of skin or whether male or female.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of all the scriptures mentioned in the bible concerning women being silent and not teaching nor usurping authority over the man needs not to be taken out of context. If a woman is married she is under the authority of her own husband. If she is single and out from under her parents, then no man is head over her, only Christ.

The bible even tells us in 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This should tell us brethren it's not male of female it is the anointing that teaches you. I'm sure we all know some men who are not biblical that we don't want teaching us. Personally, I don't want a man or a women who has not been dealt with by the cross teaching me the word of God. I would not dare tell a woman (because she is a woman) that she cannot preach, teach, or work for the Lord when she has given her life to Christ and she is his humble servant serving him with the gift he has given her to the body of Christ.

I have never read where Paul nor Jesus ever meant to say that one had to check and see whether they were male or female to see if they were qualified to do any ministry He had gifted them to do.

Jesus sets the captives free - Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Sincerely in Christ,
rbanks

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ga 3:28
There is neither male nor female. Neither the male nor the female have any peculiar advantages for salvation. There are no favours shown on account of sex. Both sexes are, in this respect, on a level. This does not mean, of course, that the sexes are to be regarded as in all respects equal; nor can it mean that the two sexes may not have peculiar duties and privileges in other respects. It does not prove that one of the sexes may not perform important offices in the church, which would not be proper for the other. It does not prove that the duties of the ministry are to be performed by the female sex; nor that the various duties of domestic life, nor the various offices of society, should be performed without any reference to the distinction of sex. The interpretation should be confined to the matter under consideration; and the passage proves only that in regard to salvation they are on a level. One sex is not to be regarded as peculiarly the favourite of heaven, and the other to be excluded. Christianity thus elevates the female sex to an equality with the male, on the most important of all interests; and it has in this way made most important changes in the world wherever it has prevailed. Everywhere but in connexion with the Christian religion, woman has been degraded. She has been kept in ignorance. She has been treated as an inferior in all respects. She has been doomed to unpitied drudgery, and ignorance, and toil. So she was among the ancient Greeks and Romans; so she is among the savages of America; so she is in China, and India, and in the islands of the sea; so she is regarded in the Koran, and in all Mohammedan countries. It is Christianity alone which has elevated her; and nowhere on earth does man regard the mother of his children as an intelligent companion and friend, except where the influence of the Christian religion has been felt. At the communion table, at the foot of the cross, and in the hopes of heaven, she is on a level with man; and this fact diffuses a mild, and purifying, and elevating influence over all the relations of life. Woman has been raised from deep degradation by the influence of Christianity; and, let me add, she has everywhere acknowledged the debt of gratitude, and devoted herself, as under a deep sense of obligation, to lessening the burdens of humanity, and to the work of elevating the degraded, instructing the ignorant, and comforting the afflicted, all over the world. Never has a debt been better repaid, or the advantages of elevating one portion of the race been more apparent.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ac 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

The apostle Paul mentions several women who were helpers with him at the close of his letters and one even had a house church.

In Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Acts 18:26
They took him unto them - This eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, who was even a public teacher, was not ashamed to be indebted to the instructions of a Christian woman, in matters that not only concerned his own salvation, but also the work of the ministry, in which he was engaged. It is disgraceful to a man to be ignorant, when he may acquire wisdom; but it is no disgrace to acquire wisdom from the meanest person or thing. The adage is good: Despise not advice, even of the meanest: the gaggling of geese preserved the Roman state.

It is clear from scripture that we all need to (including myself) pray and study the word more before we come to a conclusion about God's children regardless of the color of skin or whether male or female.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of all the scriptures mentioned in the bible concerning women being silent and not teaching nor usurping authority over the man needs not to be taken out of context. If a woman is married she is under the authority of her own husband. If she is single and out from under her parents, then no man is head over her, only Christ.

The bible even tells us in 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This should tell us brethren it's not male of female it is the anointing that teaches you. I'm sure we all know some men who are not biblical that we don't want teaching us. Personally, I don't want a man or a women who has not been dealt with by the cross teaching me the word of God. I would not dare tell a woman (because she is a woman) that she cannot preach, teach, or work for the Lord when she has given her life to Christ and she is his humble servant serving him with the gift he has given her to the body of Christ.

I have never read where Paul nor Jesus ever meant to say that one had to check and see whether they were male or female to see if they were qualified to do any ministry He had gifted them to do.

Jesus sets the captives free - Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Sincerely in Christ,
rbanks

Ability vs. order. Age old question.

Women have the ability to teach and preach, but it is God's order that says not to do so onto men.

the summit button malfunctioned, sorry about the double post.

I could be wrong, and I want God to show me when I am. He gifts and chooses whoever he pleases and there have been many men saved under the ministry of a woman of God.

Many godly men will tell you that they have learned the most about God from their mother(a woman).

by rbanks

Hi,
The Scripture is very clear that women are NOT to teach men, and not to have authority over them.

I have talked to some missionary women who have started churches overseas and have struggled with being put into the situation of having to teach men. They have made it clear to all that they did not want a position of leadership, but ended up having to do so for a period of time until a male was suitably fit for the position.

While there is no "difference" in the position male/female [b]in Christ[/b]; there is a difference of authority and the position of authority here on this earth. It is a man's job to be the protector, to be the "one who takes the heat", so to speak. Not for a woman to have to try to deal with all the enemies on the front lines herself.

(Although when God was making a point, as with Barak and Deborah, a woman killed the enemy by putting him to sleep with milk and driving a stake through his temple...but, it was almost a mark of shame to the men.)

It certainly does not mean that women have nothing worthwhile to say; and that does not limit me in my gifts. On the contrary, when I have proper authority protecting me, I have much more freedom to be who God intended me to be.

There is still much controversy regarding women speaking "at all" or prophesying in church.

(Although God can use a mule to speak, if He so chooses.)

Yet,there are still many opportunities outside of the church congregation, in smaller groups to testify, pray and have discussion.

Plus I believe that women have a lot of influence with their husbands, and when the role of the husband is proper, the expressions of joint fellowship between husband and wife are often expressed to the congregation via the husband.

This sermon by Denny Kenaston is very good regarding the place of the man. (sorry, the only way I knew how to get this was to copy the address of the link...)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12539

[i]For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church.......therefore as the church is subject to Christ....[/i]

It is not simply the expression of women inside of the church that is the issue in this matter. It is the position of the man, it is the position of the head of the man, Christ.

And when the position of Christ in the church is proper, and the position of the man under Christ is proper, then the position of the woman will not even be a question; as the body will function then as it ought to. And the woman will be [b]able[/b] to function as she was meant to, by God's design.

Just another perspective from a sister in the Lord.

In Christ,
Lori

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

All the doctrines of Christ is what is intended, not the doctrines of the Church of Man, but the doctrines of Christ. Leaving all these aside, which is particularly of the new babes in the faith, Paul says there is something to go onward and that is perfection. What is our Perfection? It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory; Col 1:27.
He is our only perfection, as the doctrine of baptisms, note "s" plural. We the body of Christ have only 2 baptisms that are peculiar to Christ.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit and the baptism in water. For we are all baptized into One Spirit.

We must be born again of the Spirit, which is the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and water, which is the water of Life that He give us by this birthing, and also baptized into the Holy Spirit sent from Christ with prayer to the Father, answered in manifestation at Pentecost.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

All these principles are the Same. Outward to Inward. This is going on into perfection. By the Christ in us.

The Spirit of Christ now our spirit, and the Water of Life proceeding from the throne of God, in that Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus, and in perfectness proceeding from Him that is in us.

Joh 4:14 But de whosoever oV an drinketh pinw of ek the water udwr that oV I egw shall give didwmi him autoV shall diyaw never eiV aiwn ou mh thirst diyaw; but alla the water udwr that oV I shall give didwmi him autoV shall be ginomai in en him autoV a well phgh of water udwr springing up allomai into eiV everlasting aiwnioV life zwh.
Re 21:6 And kai he said epw unto me moi, It is done ginomai. I egw am eimi Alpha a and kai Omega w, the beginning arch and kai the end teloV. I egw will give didwmi unto him that is athirst diyaw of ek the fountain phgh of the water udwr of life zwh freely dwrean.
Re 22:1 And kai he shewed deiknuw me moi a pure kaqaroV river potamoV of water udwr of life zwh, clear lamproV as wV crystal krustalloV, proceeding ekporeuomai out of ek the throne qronoV of God qeoV and kai of the Lamb arnion.
Re 22:17 And kai the Spirit pneuma and kai the bride numjh say legw, Come ercomai. And kai let him that heareth akouw say epw, Come ercomai. And kai let him that is athirst diyaw come ercomai. And kai whosoever will qelw, let him take lambanw the water udwr of life zwh freely dwrean.

Clear as Crystal, that is the Rock that Christ told Peter He would build His Church upon, that is Himself proceeding from the throne of God and the Lamb. Who's Throne? The Greek reads; from the throne God and Lamb.

This is the perfection which is being made in us the Body of Christ His Church.

If any woman is in this work of being made perfect, then its up to man to be in the same mode of life. She can teach perfectness in Christ as well and many times better than man. This does not take away from the teachings of Paul to the new churches, because woman and men outside of this perfectness cannot attain to the perfection that is in Christ without time. Then we are in admonition from Paul, that we can go on into perfection and can receive without prejudice, teaching from those that have been given the gift of teaching, be it Man or Woman.

Just as being baptized into water, which gets us wet and is only a symbol of what Christ has done in us, an is most certainly needed to show what the inward is becoming. Freely drinking from the water of Life Himself, which baptizes us inward, not outward.

So is the gift of teaching, women cannot teach outwardly to outwardly manifest men for they cannot receive, because of their ego's that are puffed up by their old father Satan. Going on into perfection which is inwardly, we can receive from each other, in submission to each other and receiving from each other be it male of female. So is The speaking of Christ and His church in
Eph 5.

Ephesians 5:21-33 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

In Perfection, you choose what the male and female roles are in Christ. They are of ONE flesh, which is of One Spirit quickened to accomplish that which is the great MYSTERY; which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27

Then how are we to be presented? Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom ; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus :

This is not just man, but the whole of the race of human beings, that is, man faced descendants of Adam.

May all men and women be set free because of the Christ in them and that they see the Christ in others because they see the Christ in themselves.

I love to listen to Pastor Melissa Scott, God has blessed her with a command of the languages of the Scripture that is pleasing to the soul-mind of all who hear Him through her.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Sister,

As you stated-

"The Scripture is very clear that women are NOT to teach men, and not to have authority over them.

It certainly does not mean that women have nothing worthwhile to say; and that does not limit me in my gifts. On the contrary, when I have proper authority protecting me, I have much more freedom to be who God intended me to be.

There is still much controversy regarding women speaking "at all" or prophesying in church."

This is what I am saying, I believe in the proper order of God, although as you well stated their is much controversy on the place of women in the church. Their are many women out of place in the home and in the church as well as men. The primary authority is not for the woman that is clear from scripture. God made them different and he made the woman from the man.

All I'm saying if God anoints a woman (meaning God has join himself to her for the work of ministry)lets not shoot her down because she is a woman.

As you stated-
"(Although God can use a mule to speak, if He so chooses.)"

Now, Nobody needs to be doing anything in the church unless they are anointed to do it!

Personally, I don't believe pastoring a church is primarily for a woman and I had prefer to here a man preach or teach. But I must believe God can choose who he desires.

Now if I was in a very poor country and in desperate need to hear the gospel preached and taught to me, and an anointed woman of God was sent to my village and many of my people were saved and blessed of God, I wouldn't care whether male or female, I would thank God for visiting us.

sincerely,
rbanks

I have personally been ministered to by Men, Women, and also children in my travels and will always keep an open mind to all of these because God can and will use "all" even a Donkey. Balaam had just seen God speak through his donkey. Now, doesn't that beat all? People, if God can use a donkey for His work, He can certainly use us. After hearing the donkey speak, God opened Balaam's eyes (Nu 22:31) and effectively made Balaam understand that God and God alone would give him the words to speak to Balak. God used a sinner such as Paul to change the world, he can and will use all of us as well, just my opinion.

I know that many refer to the donkey speaking as a means of suggesting God doing things in rather unorthodox ways, but let us be careful here. For God also spoke out of a burning bush, and I have yet to see anyone defending the ability of a bush to speak.

As others have mentioned, context is everything.

For example if indeed we take the passage in Galatians about "no difference" to mean what some are trying to make it say, then Paul is out of line suggesting that a wife should submit to her husband. Also, then children could say, "there is no difference, so I am going to rule over my parents."

This is not how God has ordered things. Simply because God did something in one verse, does not set a precedent for His ways for all time, and just because it "works", or because we have been blessed does not mean that it is God's way either.

I can be blessed by a word from a woman, but she is not to have authority in the Church over men.

I know it is becoming common place for women to teach in Church under the submission to their male pastors, but we do not see this in Scripture.

The letters to Timothy and Titus are pretty clear on Church practice, and state that the ones teaching the Church be a "husband of one wife".

Obviously, a woman cannot be a husband, so it is safe to say that this would disqualify them from teaching in the Church apart from teaching the younger women, or the children.

Remember brethren Eve thought her way was right, but she was deceived. She could have said, "ah but it is good, it makes me feel good, and useful, even important."

But we know how that turned out.

just because it "works", or because we have been blessed does not mean that it is God's way either.

Amen.

Pragmatism is definitely one of the biggest problems in the Church today.

PS
Still praying for you and your family brother.

I believe a woman as well as a man can teach and preach

Can...or should?

Many people believe they can, as in having the ability to do it.

But does scripture say they should?

The issue is one of authority.

I believe a woman as well as a man can teach and preach. I do not understand about pastoring but I believe that is not what we are talking about here. The title 'is' about women teaching.

So what makes you believe that women can teach and preach? I do not find any example of a women preaching or teaching in church setting in the New Testament. I my self have seen women preaching and that does not neccessarily mean that they all teach nothing but error, but that they are outside of the bounds of God's word.

I believe women can prophesy and speak in tongues, sing, pray, heal, give, praise God, in the church and evangelize outside the of the church.

Regardless what modern times, women's lib, feminism, tolerance tries to suggest to us, it just does not stand the test against God's word.

narrowpath

Some verse on the subject...

Tit 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience;
Tit 2:3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, jTEACHERS of good things—
Tit 2:4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

We have to ask who the writer of Hebrews is talking to but the impression is the church in Jerusalem.

We have to balance all scripture to find the heart of God on this. On one hand we don't have male or female according to the Spirit but on the other hand Paul seems to say that women shouldn't teach men and be silent. Considering all scripture we have a problem first because how can women be silent and do all that the other verses commands them to do?

We need balance and the heart of God and we can't just take one verse and build a doctrine. How many doctrines do you know of that have one verse for proof text?

Does our Father really not want women to teach? Mmmmmm…

Much prayer and meditation needs to be applied to this and we must remove all preconceived notions from the equation...

All for souls,

wta

narrowpath wrote:
So what makes you believe that women can teach and preach? I do not find any example of a women preaching or teaching in church setting in the New Testament.

You know I hear this stuff about the New Testament from Christians all the time, so your thinking would be that I can just tear out the old testament from my Bible, bind it back up, and that would be fine by most of today's Christians standards?

wta, according to that section of Titus, who are the older women to teach?

according to 1 Tim 2, who are they not to teach and why?

Is this a test BYD? LOL... The title of the thread questions God's will for women to teach... Should they teach men? In one verse no but in that same verse Paul says women are to be silent. There is clearly an issue with this verse and a question of what is Paul actually saying. Is this verse with its obvious challenges proof text enough to base a doctrine that silences all women? WE NEED THE LORD's HELP and not man's logic to get to the bottom of this issue, imo...
Have any women in the history of God's people teach men and have authority over them?

um...sure ;-)

you seemed to be saying that Paul contradicts himself, and that maybe there is "wiggle room" on the issue, but scripture makes it abundantly clear. I just want to handle the scriptures rightly :-)

Just thought I would comment as I go through the post,

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
When it says they are not permitted to speak, it doesn’t mean they can’t talk. The keep silent refers to the public office of teacher/preacher. Scripture says:
1.\t 1 Corinthians 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
a.\tAll including women
2.\t 1 Corinthians 11:5 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:
a.\tWomen can pray and prophesy
b.\tYour Sons and Daughters shall prophesy
c.\tPhillips Daughters prophesied
So, when you have women prophesying or praying I don’t see the problem with it because it is not forbidden in Scripture. What is forbidden in Scripture is the teaching and usurping authority over the men: 1 Timothy 2:12-14 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1.\tWomen teaching men is forbidden
a.\tHowever; women teaching other women is encouraged Titus 2:3-4 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
2.\tWomen usurping authority over men is also forbidden
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Some would like to say that this only applies to their culture. That is very problematic because Paul did not back his view by a cultural truth; he qualified it with universal truths that preceded his culture.
1.\tFOR ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST – The order of God which is not bound by a culture.
2.\tTHE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED- Women being the weaker vessel
a.\t1 Peter 3:7 7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
What Women can do …
1.\tThey can be helpers – Paul thanked some
2.\tThey can witness and share truths - Acts 18:25-26 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
a.\tIf he only knew John’s baptism then he needed to be led to Jesus. All can lead people to Jesus. Expounding the way of God more perfectly is leading this dynamic diligent speaker to Jesus.
3.\tThey can be involved with invitational evangelism- John 4:29 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
4.\tThey can pray or prophesy - Acts 21:9 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
QUOTE - I have never read where Paul nor Jesus ever meant to say that one had to check and see whether they were male or female to see if they were qualified to do any ministry He had gifted them to do.
1 Timothy 3:1-2 1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
ANSWER – One of the qualifications is to be the husband of one wife. This can only be a MAN.
Galatians 3:27-29 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In other words all can hold the same stance in salvation. This is not talking about giftings or offices this is referring to Salvation in the context.
QUOTE - Many godly men will tell you that they have learned the most about God from their mother(a woman).
ANSWER - I would agree with this, I probably learned most about God through my mother, however; my mother doesn’t violate God’s Word by teaching and usurping authority over men.

BLESSINGS

by MrBillPro on 2008/6/24 2:00:05

So what makes you believe that women can teach and preach? I do not find any example of a women preaching or teaching in church setting in the New Testament.

You know I hear this stuff about the New Testament from Christians all the time, so your thinking would be that I can just tear out the old testament from my Bible, bind it back up, and that would be fine by most of today's Christians standards?

Dear MillBro,

We have to look into the NT because it talks about the church which is us. The same principles of male headship and men being entrusted with the word was already laid out in the OT.
In the OT we did not have yet have the body of Christ and the church but a Kingdom with a levitic priesthood were the law was rule. Now the law is fulfilled and we are can obey God's law because we have the spirit.

Never did I say that we should scrap the OT. I find it a bit far fetched to say that it is my thinking that we can scrap the OT.

Hey I've enjoyed reading the posts concerning women teaching or preaching. Thank you Evavgelist for reading and commenting on my posts.

I think men in general including myself have a problem with women teaching or preaching because of the way God made us different and because of the very scriptures from the bible, under discussion in these posts.

I have never said in any of my posts that I believe in women teaching or usurping authority over men, neither do I believe that God would gift a women to have authority over men.

I do believe we need to (2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.) take in consideration the women in the bible God has used and the godly women of our day being used by God.

I have met some godly women who have given their lives on the mission field, and many men and women have come to know Jesus because of them.

I just don't believe in shooting a person down, because, just maybe, I have not completely understood ( when I think I'm so sure of myself that I have understood) what Paul was really meaning when he wrote concerning women and men.

I hope those people who got truly saved by hearing the gospel, knows that their salvation is in the Lord Jesus Christ whether presented by male or female.

rbanks

EVANGELIST,

Good, well written article.

A good use of scripture without interpreting them to suit any bias.

Of course, we all have biases. It is just a matter of which.

God bless.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Good morning Bill... can you explain to me what you're talking about here? Why would you say that?

Krispy

Well it seems that to "ME" that you never hear anything about the OT anymore that most are hung up on the NT, well I personally believe both are "equality" relevant. I mean what would we do without the Psalms and Proverbs "The Wisdom Literature" hey it's no big deal it probably my own personal hang up, but I guess we all have the right to our own opinions to like the "whole" Bible and consider it all relevant, or to cater to the NT. I guess maybe I am one of a kind that considers the whole Bible regardless of the times, yea maybe I am way out there but hey someone has to be way out there why not me? :-P

I am often tossed to an fro about the practipal applications for women speaking, teaching etc. Just in case you wonder I am a male myself.

It seems to me that most people on this forum believe that women ar not to teach in a church setting. I think so too.

Things I know from scripture:
Women may prophesy (joel, acts)
Women may pray
Women may help others (Febe etc.)
Church gatherings may take place in womens houses
Older woman may teach younger women
They may teach their childeren

They are not allowed to teach or usurp authority over men.

But I still have some questions:

[b]What is the right defenition of teaching?[/b]

Someone said. A women can share truths.
What's the difference between sharing truths and teaching? If you are sharing truth with someone are you not teaching him the truth? A preacher often shares what he himself has learned from the scriptures, is he not teaching then?

If Priscilla was expounding the way of God more perfectly to Appollos, so that he might speak and teach the things of the Lord more perfectly, was she not also teaching Appollos what to teach? Or was this allowed because it was not in a church?

1 corinthians 14:26
[i]How is it then, [b]brethren?[/b] when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.[/i]

To me it seems that this whole passage is written to the brethren, not the sisters. So when paul says:
[i]For [b]ye[/b] may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Corinthians 14:31[/i]
Is he including women in the 'ye' here?

Then he goes on to say to these [b]brethren[/b]:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Let [b]your[/b] women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Does this refer to women in general? It seems to me that it speaks about wives. And that the shame is that they exalt theirselves over their husband by speaking and asking questions in public in the church. edit: I looked up the word women and it can refer to both women in general and wives. I looked up the word husband which is anēr, and this can also refer to both husband and man in general. So i'm not sure.

Also this passage does not imply that there were women teaching. It does imply that there were women speaking out loud and asking questions. If a (married?) woman even has a question she wants to ask in church then she is not allowed to, according to this scripture. If she wants to [b]learn[/b] something (she obviously is not teaching) she has to ask her [b]husband at home[/b] for it is a shame for her to speak.

[b]What I see in all of this is that women are not to be speaking (including teaching)or asking questions in church .[/b]

But what about the single women? Are they allowed to ask questions? Or should they learn from older women or just someone they invite at their home?

[b]When do we speak of churches?[/b]
Jesus says when two or three are gathered in my name I am in their midst. Is this a church meeting?
Or is a church meeting always characterized by teaching/preaching and the presence of elders?

I do not want to cause division or decouragement by the things I have written or asked. My natural man would say that women may ask questions and when they have learned something they may tell this to others. But I only want to know and do the truth according to Gods word and live in peace and unity with my brothers and my sisters.

Jeppe

MrBillpro,

I ask you what do you see in the old testament?

Hebrews 4:11-16 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This is not the Jesus of the old testament, that Jesus was not in hand, He had not been birthed of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit, He had not been tempted like as we, He was not their High Priest, He was not crucified, He had not finished the work in death that the Father Gave Him, He had not been buried, He was not resurrected, He had not returned to the Father, He could not return in the spirit of those that believed on Him, He was not doing greater works in those that are His and are born again of His Spirit and His Water of Life.

I see Jesus Christ in the old testament as I see the Law, and both were to bring us to the New Testament and to Christ and in Christ. In Whom we are now new creatures, the Law being crucified with Him and me dead to sin on the Cross with Him. We were in Him on the Cross and in the Garden, I was in that cup and it was me who put all the stripes and pain and nails and thorns in His head and in that perfect body, every drop of blood shed, which was all that He had and was shed for me and you. So if we are new creatures in Christ Jesus and all thing have become new, why is not my place to know Him in the New and learn His ways of making us new creatures conformed to the Image that is presented in the New Testament in Christ Jesus our Lord, of which, if I were in the Old Testament days, could not be accomplished.

Four fifths of the bible is for the old testament and Israel, only one fifth is for the new testament believers, which are in Christ Jesus. The change came when Jesus went to His own and they received Him not. Even the gospels, save some of John are all for Israel. If there was no Change in the program why did God have to choose Paul to give him in the dispensation of time the Gospel, as Paul uses Mystery to present it, the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:18-29 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

We cannot commingle the old with the new, if we do we cancel them both, just like Law, old and grace, new. If it is not of Grace alone, the Law nullifies Grace and the Law becomes impotent and Grace is no longer Grace by which we are save and in Christ Jesus and the faith of Him.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Three times The Faith of Jesus Christ is mentioned. The of is not in the original Greek, so it should read The Faith Jesus Christ. Old testament believers could not attain to this faith, for He could not be born again in them, this verified by Nicodemus who could not even understand the term and him being a leader of the highest religious leadership of all Israel.

So why would I not want to be more studied in the New Testament for which Christ has made us a new creation race of God's sons' given to Christ as His body the Church.

I love the old testament and study it all the time but there is no salvation in any of the patriarchs or prophets of the Old Testament. So I stay in the New for in it is Christ and it is in Him in whom we live and move have our being.

You cannot have the bird in your hand when the bird stays in the old bush, where the one reaching with his hand can have no rest. For now we have Christ in Hand, so to speak, that is the Spirit of Christ in us that gives us rest as God swore.

Old;
Ps 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

New;
Hebrews 4:5-16 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
MrBillpro,

I ask you what do you see in the old testament?

In Christ: Phillip

Here is what I see some Christians mistakenly think we no longer have to obey any of the laws and commandments set out by God the Father in the Old Testament since we are now operating under a new covenant with Jesus. But this view is wrong. Jesus Himself says that He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Here is the verse. This is Jesus talking:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)

This verse right there tells you that all of the basic commandments set out by God the Father in the Old Testament still apply for all of us today. This includes all of the 10 Commandments, all the commands not to engage in homosexuality, the occult, getting tattoos, etc.

Jesus surly did fulfill the law and because of that...

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are you saying MBP that we are still under the tutor that Paul talks about above?

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Have we not died with Christ therefore free from the Old Covenant like the wife in the above verses is free from her husband when he dies? How is it that Paul says by the Spirit that we are free from the Old Covenant and yet you say we still me be bound to it? If we are to keep one are we not to keep them all?
Please embelish to help me better understand what you are saying.

All for souls,

wta

So my guess is that if we are not bound at all by the law period that the commandments are null and void now and we are free to break them at will, would this be true?

Still praying for you and your family brother.

Thank you so much brother. It has been a blessed wilderness of affliction. I have learned that I thought much too highly of myself.

MrBillpro wrote, Quote:

"""Here is what I see some Christians mistakenly think we no longer have to obey any of the laws and commandments set out by God the Father in the Old Testament since we are now operating under a new covenant with Jesus. But this view is wrong. Jesus Himself says that He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Here is the verse. This is Jesus talking:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)"""

Of course He did not come to destroy the Law, but by His Spirit that is in us, give us the will and the way to keep the Law Perfect in Him, by His Spirit and by the Holy Spirit of Promise, and now being born again of Incorruptable Seed, the Word Himself, we can keep all the Law because He fulfills it in us and we out of Love can obey, not out of command.

The spirit of the law, not the letter of the Law which kills.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We can walk in the Law of the old and never make it, it only kills.

Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If the Spirit of Christ dwell in you, you are perfect before the Father and the fulfillment of the Law Is Now in us.

This is the difference in the old and the new, I choose to live in the Spirit of Christ and keep His commandments out of love, not out of command of the Letter of the law that kills.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Spirit of Christ that is in you is the new testament teaching and He is the One in whom we have our life, and in Him we live and move and have our being.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Who is our righteousness? 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Do you really want to stay in the old letter of the Law that Kills, or do you want to live in the new, by the Spirit of the Law, perfectly fulfilled in us by the New, Which is: "Christ in you" Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Christ in you, is that which is perfect is Come, making us perfect before the Father and the only way we can come boldly to the throne of Grace which God freely bestows on His son's and daughters in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

I have learned that I thought much too highly of myself.

I have often said that the furnace of God is the most blessed place a saint can be in; that is, the chamber of suffering, of chastening, of spiritual introspection and examination. For when the Lord finally turns down the heat, we are then afforded a glimpse of how much we've actually [i]grown[/i] when we thought we were only going around in circles. God's ways are absolutely amazing.

Brother Paul

Christinyou,

Very well said, thanks be to God. The following is the extent we the church must adhere to the old covenant...

Act 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Act 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
Act 15:23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
Act 15:24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Act 15:30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
Act 15:31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
Act 15:32 Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.

All for souls,

wta

I see this post is no longer about women teaching, but that is probably good for the women.

But there is enough posts already to prove that we really don't know as much as the apostles did when they wrote the scriptures.

Good night all,
rbanks

But there is enough posts already to prove that we really don't know as much as the apostles did when they wrote the scriptures.

Regarding this topic, I see two basic epistemological paradigms from which people typically launch their arguments: One is WORKS and the other is GRACE. One is based on the idea that it is our job is to control the work of God and the other is from the awareness that God is author and finisher of his project. The works viewpoint uses a lot of terms related to control: ex, aught to, allow, permit, forbid, etc as if we are called to run God’s program for him.

Why not try the “grace” approach, and then scripture will make a lot more sense: just watch what God is and has been doing? After all, he is in charge of his Church, and he is the one who equips the saints. Of course it is a challenge to discern between the work of humans and the work of God – between law and Spirit.

Now, here is where it gets sticky. As we all known, historians have a way of spitting out what doesn’t fit. For example: I remember a Baptist pastor teaching us church history. Never once did he mention any female involvement. Then later I discovered in some old church records evidence to the contrary. God has indeed risen up women in key teaching and leading “roles” (I hate to use that word). When you dig deeper, you may also discover that during Holy Spirit/ revival movements the work flourishes and women are involved as teachers and preachers, and then man (males) takes control, and you have what typically happens: institutionalized religion, human controlled. And men take over the roles – even where women where functioning well.

Oh…. May we learn how to discern the hand of God in the building of his kingdom, and when what we see doesn’t fit our paradigm, then may we allow God to transform our minds and give us understanding…. lest we inadvertently quench the Spirit and snuff out revival. That has happened – all too often!

May Phil. 3:7-11 be our ruling passion, and then our function in the Kingdom work will fall into place:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Phil. 3:7-11

Diane

Christinyou wrote:
MrBillpro wrote, Quote:
Do you really want to stay in the old letter of the Law that Kills, or do you want to live in the new, by the Spirit of the Law, perfectly fulfilled in us by the New, Which is: "Christ in you"
In Christ: Phillip

Holy Jesus how some folks can read so much into something just blows my mind, for those that can't read for face value I will explain, now I see why we debate scripture so much by not accepting the Word of God on its literal face value, but interpreting it in metaphorical and allegorical ways. I have never said anywhere in my posts here that I choose to live in the OT or NT I have basically said I feel the whole Bible is still relevant and I choose to still consider the "whole" Word of God, never have I said I am living the OT life or choose to live the OT life, do some even read all that folks post here completely before they start typing? :-(

Deleted double post. :-)

May I ask my fellow brothers and sisters (I did not say: Sisters, though shalt not blog) to stay on the topic or else start a new thread otherwise it is misleading to those who want to follow the thread.

narrowpath wrote:
May I ask my fellow brothers and sisters (I did not say: Sisters, though shalt not blog) to stay on the topic or else start a new thread otherwise it is misleading to those who want to follow the thread.

Yes you may. :-P

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)"""

This has to be one of the most misunderstood scriptures quoted today.

Matthew is a book, speaking about the Kingdom of Heaven that will be established on earth when Christ Returns. He is stating most emphatically, that those promises in the Old Testament regarding His future Earthly Reign will most definitely be fulfilled before this Heaven and earth pass away.

R.G. Benjamin

RevBenjamin wrote:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)"""

This has to be one of the most misunderstood scriptures quoted today.

Matthew is a book, speaking about the Kingdom of Heaven that will be established on earth when Christ Returns. He is stating most emphatically, that those promises in the Old Testament regarding His future Earthly Reign will most definitely be fulfilled before this Heaven and earth pass away.

R.G. Benjamin

I guess people don't realize or understand-that the law that Jesus is referring to him coming to fulfill.............was the Law of Moses(specifically the ordinances and temple services/ministry)-meaning that Christ came to fulfill ALL the types and shadows that pointed to him in the Temple Ministry -this is the very reason why upon his death "...the veil of the temple was rent in twain"-Christ had fulfilled the types and shadows that pointed to him in/from the Mosaic Law, contained in the Temple Ministry services/sacrifices-however, this had nothing to do with the 10 Commandments though.

And nothing in the 10 Commandments was a type or a shadow. :-) (only in the law of Moses, were there types and shadows)

To take this thread back to it's original purpose-and to tie it in with the Law:

1Cor 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are [b]COMMANDED[/b] to be [b]UNDER[/b] obedience, as [b]ALSO SAITH THE LAW.[/b] 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands [b]at home[/b]: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man [b]think[/b] himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you [b]are the COMMANDMENTS of the Lord(Jesus).[/b]

Well, it looks like I’m a bit slow – entering into this topic when interest has dwindled away. Still, I’d like to, if I may, challenge one of my own points.

… terms related to control: ex, aught to, allow, permit, forbid, etc as if we are called to run God’s program for him.

Here I referred to the propensity to use terms of power and control when operating from a more legal/law based premise.

Now, I’m surprised no one pointed out the fact that there are indeed many Biblical references about the need to be firm and assertive – like evicting those in the Church who are harming the flock: sinners, false teachers, usurpers, controllers, etc. Certainly, here is where the church has been weak and unassertive. We have permitted too many to hold sway over the Body who should not. (Another huge topic)

And one more point: We indeed need to see a rise of godly male authority in the church and the family– especially when it comes to our children. Their view of God is shaped very significantly by the authority in their lives. However, here I chastise those of my own gender: Sitting back and “letting” the men do it all, is not a solution, but more likely a copout and just another method of subtle manipulative control. On the other hand God has not called us to prop up the fragile egos of the leaders through our work in the church. The Spirit is still our highest authority. We serve God's kingdom, not man's hunger for Babel kingdoms.

Of course there is no end of potential dialogue regarding this topic of gender roles, but perhaps we are moving on..........

After all as we draw closer to the Lord, distinctions become less and less of an issue.

“Instead, speaking the truth, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is Christ.” Eph. 4:5

Pardon this “insert”….. Do carry on with the conversation as it has transformed.......

Diane

1 Corinthians 14:34-38 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (((((What?)))) came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The Word of God came to man and woman from God. How is she to suborndinate herself to, "any egnorant man". Paul also said the Law was nailed to the Cross. Paul's "WHAT" is a affirmation of this scripture. "What", the Word of God did not come to women and they are to learn only from a man, be it husband or any other who rule over her and says she should be subordinate to him and not Jesus Christ, if she is to learn anything she must come to him? "WHAT"???

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

"Unto edifying". 1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done ((unto)) edifying.

The word "UNTO", is a together thing; Strongs;
(where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

Husband, Wife, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit and God the Father in One Abode. A single woman has One over Her and that is Jesus Christ, she may submit just like the man, to whom the Holy Spirit has inclined their Hearts to be submissive to, be it President, Governor, Pastor-Teacher, etc.

Men don't be ignorant, accept woman as God intended her to be, Ge 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Ge 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

"help meet", and aid and a helper, praise God we need help. Let us be to women what we are intended to be, "give ourselves for them as Christ did the Church."

In Christ: Phillip

RevBenjamin wrote:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)"""

This has to be one of the most misunderstood scriptures quoted today.

R.G. Benjamin

I don't know about that Brother, I have seen a ton of scriptures that are misunderstood and that one would not be at the top of my list that I have seen most misunderstood. :-)

The amount of modern western influence on some people's responses and outlooks on this subject is disheartening (not just this thread).

Who do we think we are? We tell the Lord that He is wrong about what He says regarding the role of men and women, then we complain that the Lord hasn't moved in revival throughout our midst.?.?

Wake up church! The Lord isn't an American and He doesn't hold American views on equality. God holds His view, which is righteous and just... and we must submit to His ways and will.

Christinyou wrote:

The Word of God came to man and woman from God. How is she to suborndinate herself to, "any egnorant man". [b]Paul also said the Law was nailed to the Cross[/b].

Paul NEVER said " the law was nailed to the cross"-he said " the handwritten ORDINANCES were nailed to the cross"

Ordinances were not the entire law-ordinances were PART of the Law. Other parts of the law were judgements, statues, etc.. And the only thing Paul said was nailed to the cross was "ORDINANCES"

Eph2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments [b]CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES[/b]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of [b]ORDINANCES[/b] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ordinances had feast days attached to them-and it was these feast days, along with the ordinances that Christ nailed to his Cross-and it was these same feast/ordinacnes that Paul speaks of in Col 2:14

2 Chron 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual [b]shewbread[/b], and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the [b]sabbaths[/b], and on the [b]new moons[/b], and on the solemn [b]feasts[/b] of the LORD our God. This is an [b]ordinance[/b] for ever to Israel.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of [b]ORDINANCES[/b] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 16 Let no man therefore judge you in [b]meat[/b], or in drink, or in [b]respect of an holyday[/b], or of the [b]new moon, or of the sabbath days[/b]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Christ nailed the law of commandments that were contained in ORDINANCES to his cross-meaning all the Old Testament Commandments to keep various ordinances were blotted out-not the whole law of itself.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

A good understanding of the book of Galatians, as well as these scriptures, makes it pretty clear that a believer in Christ is not under the law, but grace.

We are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. In Galations chapter 5, he tells us anyone who is trying to obtain righteousness by keeping the Law has fallen from grace and christ is having no effect on Him.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

rbanks

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

"ordinances"
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1378. dogma
Search for G1378 in KJVSL
dogma dogma dog'-mah
from the base of 1380; law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):--decree, ordinance.

Ordinances, are not singular, which "it" was taken out of the way. It is the Law, and nailing "it" to the Cross.

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

What was the enmity between Jews and Gentiles? The Law was the pride of Israel this is the middle wall taken down and made one, in doing it completely also took away the Law, and destroyed the temple so they could not even keep it anymore.

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Man's pride is epitomized in the Keeping of the Law and then breaking it himself and making a display of piety in the streets and the wearing of robes and praying loudly.

This is what the Cross of Christ took away, all the pride of man, and nailed it to the Cross. We could not keep it anyhow, so we were doubly condemned.

The Law even by one offense, death came upon all men. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Taking it all away and making His Cross all that we are. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Making God perfect in His Judgement and Glory: 2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2 Corinthians 3:6-18 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Where is the Law Now? In us, fulfilled in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

"ordinances"
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1378. dogma
Search for G1378 in KJVSL
dogma dogma dog'-mah
from the base of 1380; law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):--decree, ordinance.

Ordinances, are not singular, which "it" was taken out of the way. It is the Law, and nailing "it" to the Cross.

Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

What was the enmity between Jews and Gentiles? The Law was the pride of Israel this is the middle wall taken down and made one, in doing it completely also took away the Law, and destroyed the temple so they could not even keep it anymore.

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Man's pride is epitomized in the Keeping of the Law and then breaking it himself and making a display of piety in the streets and the wearing of robes and praying loudly.

This is what the Cross of Christ took away, all the pride of man, and nailed it to the Cross. We could not keep it anyhow, so we were doubly condemned.

The Law even by one offense, death came upon all men. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Taking it all away and making His Cross all that we are. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Making God perfect in His Judgement and Glory: 2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2 Corinthians 3:6-18 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Where is the Law Now? In us, fulfilled in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

No, that is your OPINION, that is was the whole law-Paul clearly says it was "ORDINANCES" that were taken out of the way and nailed to his cross-the word for ordinances is "dogma" as you wrote, but the word for law in the NT is "nomos"-and "nomos" does NOT appear in Col 2:14. There were many ordinances (that is why the word is plural-some of them were forever such as the Passover and the Feast of Unleavended bread(which did/do point to Christ-but they are everlasting ordincances. Other ordinances were not such as all the other various FEAST days and specific eatings on those days-these are what Christ nailed to Cross, and this is exactly what Paul is referring to that is why he GOES ON TALK ABOUT MEAT, DRINK, FEAST DAYS, new moons, and sabbaths (plural)

Also, no scripture says Christ fulfilled the law IN US-you added that to scripture. Scripture only said he came to fulfill it-meaning he himself be the fulness or substance of the shadows.

How is the law nailed to the Cross, when Christ is asked which is the great COMMANDMENT in the LAW-he even quotes from the Law?

To love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength is in the Law, to love thy neighbor as thy self is in the Law-no please tell me how that is done away with if Christ quotes exactly from the Law?

Levit 19:34 -
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 6:5 -
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Quote:

"""To love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength is in the Law, to love thy neighbor as thy self is in the Law-no please tell me how that is done away with if Christ quotes exactly from the Law?"""

How many were able to keep this 1st and 2nd commandment? None as I can see from scripture, lest why did Christ come.

1 John 4:10-18 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Why is it so hard to believe that the Law is fulfilled in us? If Christ Himself is the Word and He fulfilled the Law of God which is of God and He is in us, if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, then it is simple logic, that the Law fulfilled by Christ and Christ is in us, is not the Law fulfilled in us, and the only way we can keep the Law, else why did Christ come to be born again in the believer and why does scripture say, "as He is, so are we in this world".

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, (((((Christ shall profit you nothing.))))) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Do you believe that the Spirit of Christ dwells in you? Why must we be Born Again? How are we born again?

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Circumcision=Law Uncircumcision=Love and Grace.

We cannot commingle the two or we are taking on us again the, "Yoke of Bondage".

Is Christ in us? Paul says so over 200 times, 156 specifically and the rest is inferred in his writings, which God specifically chose him to deliver this mystery and in over 2/3s of the New Testament that is Paul's message, with a little from John and Peter. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

The words in Christ occur in 224 verses, including 77 exact phrase matches shown first:

Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Just a few;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Warning against the Law and taking upon us the, "Yoke of Bondage", again.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but (((((Christ liveth in me:))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

To be perfect, we must be in Christ and He in us.
This is the fulfillment of the Word of God, in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, (((((to fulfil the word of God;))))) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of (((((the glory of this mystery))))) among the Gentiles; which is (((((Christ in you, the hope of glory:))))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may (((((present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:))))) Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ, all are equal. In Christ, no male or female. "Every man Perfect in Christ".
"Every Man", is every man faced human being. In the world woman cannot teach over man, in Christ woman is equal to man and can do all that man does for they are all One in Christ, where we are already seated in the heavenly's in Him, no male or female.

In Christ: Phillip

Brethen,
let us not strive about words to no profit which is to the ruin of the hearers.
As many as are led by the Spirit, these are the children of God.
who is he who condemns?it is God who justifies.
If the Lord has justified a woman by given her His Spirit, will you condemn such? whom the lord has chosen, will you refuse?
one thing i know is this, the Judge of all the earth will definitely do right.I will not judge Him by my feeble sense.

What does the great William Tyndale think about women teachers and women that speak in the church? Also, what does he say about the idols of every church? What does he think about today's vain preachers? Here is the first English translation of the N.T from the adversity of 1526 from Worms, Germany under the mighty hand of God, in the land of Martin Luther. Compare this bible to the King james. and see who is superior, Tyndale or bible corrupters.
1 Timothy 2 (1526 N.T)
9 ¶ Likewise also the women that they array themselves in mannerly apparel with shamefastness, and honest behavior, not with broided hair, other gold, or pearls, or costly array:
10 but with such as becometh women that profess the worshipping of God thorow good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 I suffer not a woman to teach, neither to have authority over the man: but for to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, and then Eve.
14 Also Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in transgression.
15 Notwithstanding they shall be saved thorow bearing of children, if they continue in the faith and in love, and in sanctifying.

2 Timothy 2:14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, and testify before the Lord, that they strive not about words, which is to no profit, but to pervert the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself laudable unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, dividing the word of truth justly.
16 Unghostly and vain voices pass over. For they shall increase unto greater ungodliness,
17 and their words shall fret even as doth a canker: of whose number is Hymeneos and Philetos,
18 which as concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and do destroy the faith of divers persons.
19 ¶ But the sure ground of God remaineth, and hath this seal: the Lord knoweth them that are his, and let every man that calleth on the name of Christ, depart from iniquity.

There you have it turn to God from idols, shun women teachers and women that speak in the church and false preachers avoid. Seek Luther sermons immediately.

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"""To love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength is in the Law, to love thy neighbor as thy self is in the Law-no please tell me how that is done away with if Christ quotes exactly from the Law?"""

How many were able to keep this 1st and 2nd commandment? [b]None as I can see from scripture, lest why did Christ come.[/b]

In Christ: Phillip

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named [b]Zacharias[/b], of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was [b]Elisabeth[/b]. 6 And they were both [b]RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN [u][size=medium][color=FF0000]ALL[/color][/size][/b][/u] the [b]COMMANDMENTS[/b] and [b]ORDINANCES[/b] of the Lord [b]BLAMELESS[/b].

The one thing I do know is that Zach and Elizabeth kept/walked in ALL the commandments of God(that would include the 1st & 2nd)

And the Bible never teaches that a man could never keep God's law in the Old Testament-that has just been man's theology of trying to justify a means in which he never properly understood

What the Law could not do, was CONDEMN sin, man could keep the Law in the Old Testament and that made him righteous with God-but keeping the law did not condemn the sin nature in him that man was born with through the fall of Adam-that is why Christ had to come in the likeness of sinful flesh TO CONDEMN SIN IN THE FLESH (that is what the law was weak in that it could not do)

THIS IS WHY CHRIST HAD TO COME:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God [b]sending his own Son[/b] in the likeness of sinful flesh, [b]AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN in the flesh[/b]
The reason why it was weak through the flesh, was because in the Old Testament men kept the law through the flesh-but now we keep/observe the Law through/with/in the Spirit. It was weak through the flesh because men with sin in them kept/observed it in the flesh. But when Christ came, he was sinless, full of and filled with the Spirit and he kept the Law through and in the Spirit and we must do the same.

In the Old Testament it was the shadows that pointed TO Christ, in the New Testament it is the Spirit that LEADS US to Christ, and in Christ (with the shadows abolished and nailed to his cross)

Many Old Testament men were righteous,just, and perfect-but none of them were sinless-again only Christ was sinless in that IN HIM was no sin, and He knew NO SIN (yet man did)

Again in Col 2:14 Paul is clearly only speicifically referring to ORDINANCES-and it was those ordinances and the temple services/ministry that Christ nailed to his cross and fulfilled.

Not one verse in the whole of scripture says Christ fulfilled the Law IN US-that is what you of yourself have added-but Holy Scripture doesn't teach or say that: Christ only said that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill-and He never added the words " in you"-and neither did Paul ever say the Law was nailed to the Cross!

If you do not keep the Law-you are a transgressor-this is what James says TO THE NEW T CHURCH:
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, [b]and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[/b] 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet [b]offend in one point, he is guilty of all[/b]. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, [b]thou art BECOME a TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW[/b]

Just thought I’d make a few more comments…

First of all I don’t know why some bring up the law.
Jesus did not come to break the law but to fulfill the law.
Even though we are under grace we are still obligated to obey the Scriptures.

Logic 101
Major premise … If we violate Scripture we sin (Universal truth)

Minor premise … Woman who teach and usurp authority over men violate Scripture

Conclusion … Therefore, Woman who teach and usurp authority over men are in sin.

This is a simple syllogism that only requires the simplest common sense.

However; some will say I heard a woman preacher lead thousands of people to the Lord,
and our response is, if Christ is preached than we do rejoice, however; we will not say this is God’s way. God’s way is reveled in his Word.

Many still believe God meant what he said in his Word.

Many of those will say the end justifies the means for example,

If I went to Zondervan’s storage and stole 10,000 Bibles in Spanish and went to Mexico and gave them away for free and seen thousands saved as a direct result of reading God’s Word is my sinful action justified????

NO

This is the lens that many are looking through concerning woman preachers.

Another lens that they look through is, there are no men to do right so the women have to take their place. They may have the ability but not the authority as one brother quoted on this post.
When I was studying on this topic somehow I ended up in:

1 Chronicles 13:8-10 8 David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets. 9 When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. 10 The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God.

Maybe Uzzah was sincere, maybe he had the ability to keep it from stumbling, however he did not have the authority to put his hand on the ark and he paid a dear consequence for violating God’s Word.

I wonder if women are putting their hands on the ark…

In honesty the only way I think that maybe (if there is any) women may have authority to preach and have authority in the Church is if they are an exception to the rule, which if they are the burden of proof rests on them to prove it.

Lastly I do appreciate all the people who voice their views but some I refuse to comment on because their interpretations seem so spiritualized that they have no earthly value.

To go against conscience is neither safe nor sound

Blessings,

Josh

THIS IS WHY CHRIST HAD TO COME:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN in the flesh.

Then I guess Christ did not die for these.

Quote:
"""Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL the COMMANDMENTS and ORDINANCES of the Lord BLAMELESS."""

If they were perfect why did they die? Why do all still die today?

There is only One that walked in perfection of the flesh, Jesus Christ.

Quote:
"""The one thing I do know is that Zach and Elizabeth kept/walked in ALL the commandments of God(that would include the 1st & 2nd)"""

"""And they were both RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL the COMMANDMENTS and ORDINANCES of the Lord BLAMELESS."""

And you will say they were looking forward to the Cross and were saved in Christ. They could only believe in the types and shadows of the Messiah.

We are looking back to the Cross and are saved, but we all still die in the flesh. But we have the manifestation of Christ in us this side of the Cross.

We all die because of sin and the power of sin is the Law. But this side of the Cross we are all made alive in Christ.

They were not in Christ, because He had not risen and translated to the Father's Throne, and come back in the Spirit of those that believe that He is the Son of God. He is revealed in the New Testament, the mystery hidden from from all generation until the Holy Spirit would reveal the mystery at Pentecost which they still did not understand, and Jesus Christ had to call Paul to reveal this mystery to the world and especially those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

None could be born from the dead and we were dead and now we are alive in Christ Jesus, because He was the First, now we can be the 2nd.

Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Are we not born again from the dead also, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Word Himself. Do we not live also, and already seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, by Grace through Faith.

This is what Paul was chosen for and Christ revealed in Him, that we might know that we are the son's of God Born Again from the dead, by the Spirit of Christ and the living water of Life in Him pouring forth rivers of Living Water from those that are His.

Galatians 1:15-18 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Revealed to Paul for some three years by Christ.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That is why Paul could call the Gospel of Christ in you, His Gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to ((((my gospel,)))) and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

To fulfill the mystery in its revelation, to fulfill the Word of God, Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:2-11 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In Christ: Phillip

CHRISTINYOU WROTE:
In Christ, all are equal. In Christ, no male or female. "Every man Perfect in Christ".
"Every Man", is every man faced human being. In the world woman cannot teach over man, in Christ woman is equal to man and can do all that man does for they are all One in Christ, where we are already seated in the heavenly's in Him, no male or female.

WHAT?

What is all the IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST o.k. we get it, we as Christians are in Christ.

However; when Paul said, 1 Timothy 2:12 12
I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN; SHE MUST BE SILENT.

He was obviously talking in the context to those that were in Christ. To say he wasn’t would be saying that the Apostle Paul positioned unbelievers to teach and have authority which is nonsense.

Josh

It is really strange, how people can look directly at verses and totally ignore them. This topic of "women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:

1 Tim 2:12 [b]But I suffer NOT a woman TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.

Rev 2:20 [color=FF0000]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because THOU SUFFERREST that [b]WOMAN Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,[size=medium]TO TEACH[/size][/b]and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[/color]

Jesus and Paul are in agreement (as some people try to say they weren't)

1 Cor 14:34 [b]Let your women keep silence IN THE CHURCHES[/b]: for it is [b]NOT PERMITTED[/b] unto them to speak; but they are [b]COMMANDED[/b] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

That is clear, and plain as day.

BlazedbyGod wrote:
It is really strange, how people can look directly at verses and totally ignore them. This topic of "women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:

1 Tim 2:12 [b]But I suffer NOT a woman TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.

Rev 2:20 [color=FF0000]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because THOU SUFFERREST that [b]WOMAN Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,[b][size=medium]TO TEACH[/size][/b] [/b] and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[/color]

Jesus and Paul are in agreement (as some people try to say they weren't)

1 Cor 14:34 [b]Let your women keep silence IN THE CHURCHES[/b]: for it is [b]MOT PERMITTED[/b] unto them to speak; but they are [b]COMMANDED[/b] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

That is clear, and plain as day.

Take 2 scriptures out of context and try to destroy with others with our so called -"thus saith the Lord". -

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that "a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff." And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, "Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women." This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co 11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.

But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.

But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Ge 3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.

I believe Adam Clark here is closer to the meaning in context, at least in the spirit of Love.

respectfully submitted by rbanks

rbanks wrote:

Take 2 scriptures out of context and try to destroy with others with our so called -"thus saith the Lord". -

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that "a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff." And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, "Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women." This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co 11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.

But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.

But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Ge 3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.

I believe Adam Clark here is closer to the meaning in context, at least in the spirit of Love.

respectfully submitted by rbanks

So I guess you believe Adam Clarke, over the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul-that is all you have asserted.

1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer NOT a woman [b]TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.

That says nothing about them learning, it speaks of them TEACHING.(over the man)

And Paul was no Rabbi, thus he was not referring to some Old Jewish rabbinic tradition-this is for the CHURCHES of God-not the synagogue.

And in Cor 14 before Paul ever starts telling them to ask their husbans at home-he started off by says " Let your women keep silent in the Churches for it is NOT permitted unto the [b]TO SPEAK[/b].." then he goes on to talk about women LEARNING BY ASKING THEIR HUSBANDS at home.

They were not permitted to teach, as in be the teacher, AND they were permitted not to "speak" as in asking questions. Forbidden to teach, forbidden to speak.

Or perhaps I should ask-what does 1 Tim 2:12 mean when he says: I suffer (allow) NOT a woman to TEACH, NOR to ursurp authority over the man, but to be in SILENCE.

What does" I do not allow(permit) women to TEACH mean rbanks?

I also find it amusing that you say I took two scriptures out of context, but yet you put "thus saith the Lord" in my mouth( I never said that) -when I can guarantee that noone on this forum heard/saw me write that. So I feel worthy to be lied on by thee, in your means to justify scripture by Adam Clark, versus clear truth revealed by Jesus Christ and Paul his chosen apostle without any error in scripture.

Do we need men's commentary to understand that Christ is the Lord-or what "thus saith Adam Clark"?

Why were there no women apostles then? How come there are no women writers in the New Testament Books of the Bible? How come Mary, neither Jesus's mother, nor Madgnella, have a Gospel? or an epistle? How come the lady who wiped his feet with her hair doesn't have a gospel or an epistle? How come prophetess is not listed among the apostle,prophet, evangelist, teacher, and pastor in Ephesians?

Is God against women, no,does God love women, yes but he did not choose women to lead his Church, nor to teach men. Elder women are told to teach younger women-but they are forbidden from teaching men or usurping authority over the man.

Is not this written to the Church, speaking of women who have God's Spirit:
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 [b]Every man praying or prophesying, having his head COVERED, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head UNCOVERED dishonoureth her head:[/b]

If there is no difference as you others have said: Then why does the man not need to cover his head, BUT THE WOMAN DOES NEED TO COVER HER HEAD in Prayer or prophesying?

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For [b]a man[/b] indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as [b]HE IS THE IMAGE AND GLORY of GOD[/b]: but the woman is the glory of THE MAN.

Who is the image and Glory of God?

KrispyKrittr wrote:

So I guess you believe Adam Clarke, over the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul-that is all you have asserted.

I find it comical that some folks, when confronted with the clear black & white teachings of scripture, will run out and start quoting from commentaries that agree with them on whatever the particular issue is that is being debated.

Well... got news for everyone... commentaries are not scripture. Even Matthew Henry didnt get it right all the time.

But reading many of the threads on this forum one would come to the conclusion that commentaries carry as much weight as scripture.

Nothing wrong with commentaries. I have love Matthew Henry. But this Adam what's his face is wrong on this issue. Period.

Krispy

I also find it amusing, that this Adam guy, got it wrong just like the first Adam-lol. Maybe Adam didn't learn from Adam- seems like Adam is always falling for the same thing. :-)

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I find it comical that some folks, when confronted with the clear black & white teachings of scripture, will run out and start quoting from commentaries that agree with them on whatever the particular issue is that is being debated.

Well... got news for everyone... commentaries are not scripture. Even Matthew Henry didnt get it right all the time.

But reading many of the threads on this forum one would come to the conclusion that commentaries carry as much weight as scripture.

Nothing wrong with commentaries. I have love Matthew Henry. But this Adam what's his face is wrong on this issue. Period.

Krispy

Brother this has been my message here forever, these so call theologians carry no more weight or understanding "unless we let them" than we do. Every child of God here has the opportunity to tune into the correct interpretation through the Spirit of the truth, as my sig. lines says there "will" come a day when true worshipers will worship him in Spirit and Truth and I don't think he is talking about any theologian, my guess is he is talking about God.

sorry to put a spanner in the works but what about Teresa Conlon from Times Square

Quote:

"""WHAT?

What is all the IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST o.k. we get it, we as Christians are in Christ."""

The whole world is in Christ, The important part is the Christ in you. That is who the Father sees' when He accepts us as a sons'.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

I am sorry the, "in Christ" statement upsets you.

For I have no glory, except in the Cross of Christ. Any glory I have is by the Christ in me.
He is the only hope of glory I have. I have no confidence in my flesh and hate the sin that is in my flesh, but it is no longer I who sin but sin that dwells in me. "Who has set me free from this body of sin, Praise God, Jesus Christ that is in me.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

There are two types of Christians.

Those that believe in the Name of Jesus Christ and are on this earth trying to make themselves better for the Kingdom of God, seeking to clean up their act and be pleasing to God.

And, Those who were before the foundation of the world until now seated in Christ in the heavenlies whom God swore there would be those that entered His Rest. Those that know they can do nothing for the Kingdom that God has not already done for them in Christ Jesus. Their rest is by the Christ God the Father has birthed in them as He swore they should enter His rest.

Luke 10:38-42 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

This is what I mean by Christ in you, and us in Christ: Christ declared, Mary hath chosen the good part. For one thing is needful, this one thing that she has done, to give up herself to the guidance of Christ. The things of this life will be taken away from us, at the furthest, when we shall be taken away from them; but nothing shall separate from the love of Christ, and a part in that love. Men and devils cannot take it away from us, and God and Christ will not. Let us mind the one thing needful more diligently. Seek first the Kingdom of God, Christ being not only on the Throne of God, but also on the Throne of our Hearts an Spirit, by His being Born Again in us making us new creatures in Christ by Him that is now our life. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. "For it is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me". Gal 2:20

In Christ: Phillip

Hate to break this to you guy's, but you are all providing commentary by your discussions here. Just as well, it could be said that we are just a bunch of amateur-Biblical hobbyists compared to the lifetime and research put forth from someone of the likes of Adam Clarke or John Gill or Matthew Henry. Find it a bit troubling just as well the quick dismissal as 'commentary' rather then the content of what has been said, if you haven't studied out the culture and times, history and so forth how can you know whether or not there is any basis for your ... commentary?

Would like to think that the majority of the time these things are presented to do the most pressing thing ... consider. It does not have to mean that sides are being drawn or an intention is being presented, though that certainly is possible and actual. In this present case I do not know frankly, I am not particularly following all this nor have read Mr. Clarke's comments here nor the volume that has been written amongst everyone. Just a point about considering how fast we dismiss those that have given the majority of their lives to the study of God's Word ...

Blazed, please don't abuse the fonts, there is a mention about this in the disclaimer.

There has been a number of postings on this subject and to tell you the truth they bring forth a lot more underlying issues unrelated to women teaching ... How we conduct ourselves as Brethren for one.

BlazedbyGod wrote:
It is really strange, how people can look directly at verses and totally ignore them. This topic of "women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:

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1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer NOT a woman TO TEACH, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.

That says nothing about them learning, it speaks of them TEACHING.(over the man)

And Paul was no Rabbi, thus he was not referring to some Old Jewish rabbinic tradition-this is for the CHURCHES of God-not the synagogue.

And in Cor 14 before Paul ever starts telling them to ask their husbans at home-he started off by says " Let your women keep silent in the Churches for it is NOT permitted unto the TO SPEAK.." then he goes on to talk about women LEARNING BY ASKING THEIR HUSBANDS at home.

They were not permitted to teach, as in be the teacher, AND they were permitted not to "speak" as in asking questions. Forbidden to teach, forbidden to speak.

Or perhaps I should ask-what does 1 Tim 2:12 mean when he says: I suffer (allow) NOT a woman to TEACH, NOR to ursurp authority over the man, but to be in SILENCE.

What does" I do not allow(permit) women to TEACH mean rbanks?

I also find it amusing that you say I took two scriptures out of context, but yet you put "thus saith the Lord" in my mouth( I never said that) -when I can guarantee that noone on this forum heard/saw me write that. So I feel worthy to be lied on by thee, in your means to justify scripture by Adam Clark, versus clear truth revealed by Jesus Christ and Paul his chosen apostle without any error in scripture.

Do we need men's commentary to understand that Christ is the Lord-or what "thus saith Adam Clark"? quote by BlazedbyGod
______________________________________________________

I put what you said from two different posts.

I am sorry if I offended you brother as you stated I lied on you, for that was no way my intentions!

I only said so called "thus saith the Lord" because I have always taken Jesus Christ as my Lord.

And as you stated -
["women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:]quoted by BlazedbyGod

I love and fear God, and it hurts me that you think I lied on you, because God knowing my heart, that I would never intentionally do that!

I don't think some on here realize how strong they speak against someone they don't agree with like women teaching.

As one posted what about Teresa Conlon who is a woman of God.

I take those two scriptures about women, in what I believe Paul was saying by the Holy spirit. I believe the bible says that a woman is not to teach or take authority over the man but yet the bible makes it clear that He pours out his spirit on women and they are used by God.

If a women is not the sole authority in the church and she is not taking authority, and not trying to teach her husband instead of being submissive to his leadership, then she can teach if called by God.

If a man listens to her teach (while she is under authority to her head) and God blesses him through the anointed word, I don't believe either one of them are sinning against God.

I also like to let it be known that Adam Clarke is not my favorite commentary. I just thought he had some wisdom on the subject, no different than others on here who have quoted someone else, because they like the spirit in what they were saying.

I mean some people can beat a dead horse to death. But I will try and not do that. I agree with most of what people, against women teaching, have written concerning being against them having authority over the man.

I am a blessed man, I have a beautiful, godly, submissive wife. I don't deserve her. I am the head of my household. My wife has never tried to take authority over me nor has she tried to teach me to do anything different than what God in his word has shown me.

I only wish I could say I have always tried to love my wife like Christ loved the church. But to my shame I can't, but you can believe me, I'm going to try more than ever.

When the Holy Spirit falls on my wife when she is praying for someone else they are blessed. I have no problem listening to my wife, who is of a meek and quiet spirit, when the spirit moves on her

She has been their for me when I needed her most. She is solid in the word. She prays and reads her bible every day early in the morning and she knows the word better than most of the men preachers on TV today. There is hardly any we watch anymore.

She loves to hear me preach the word and encourages me. I love to talk with her about Jesus more than anybody I know. We can talk about Jesus and he comes and joins us in the conversation.

I will admit I don't understand everything fully about what God intended concerning women, but I need to be my concerned with what he is saying to me personally and my attitude toward others.

I hope to follow Christ and walk in Love.

respectfully submitted by rbanks

Can someone share their thought on a woman leading a communion service, leading worship, baptizing, teaching in a Bible college, conducting a wedding ceremony?

I would like all your insight …

Blessings,

Can someone share their thought on a woman leading a communion service, leading worship, baptizing, teaching in a Bible college, conducting a wedding ceremony?

It’s amazing to see this topic still going on, and no closer to resolution than it began! There may be a good reason for it. You are trying to build on a faulty foundation. Let’s admit, generally speaking, the way church is run and has been run for centuries is not the way God intended. It is built on the foundation of man. And so your zeal to lay bricks on this sandy foundation will be non-profitable in the long run. In fact, it may hurt you. If you keep on trying to build a wall of bricks without the mortar of the Spirit (who alone builds his Church gives it unity), you will eventually find your wall come toppling down on yourself.

None of you have been designated the role of the Pope, and so you have no authority to change anything. No one "out there" will listen to you anyway. That is not all bad. After all, God is the final authority of the church - not you.

There is one message that the Holy Spirit keeps on drumming in my mind regarding issues in the church that are troublesome to me (and there are many!) The Lord says, "That’s none of your business!” In other words, since I can’t do anything about it, I do not need to occupy myself with what “they” are doing or should be doing.

There is enough in my life that I must wrestle with – primarily my own walk with the Lord. And THAT is what will help build and edify the Church in the long run – not those issues which are none of my business (ie, not my "calling").

I dare say, if we come up with explanations of any scriptures that ultimately divide and weaken the Body, we are likely barking down the wrong track – the one that our enemy would like us to be on. The Bible is intended to bring edification and unity to the Body. If applied correctly, it does not distance us from other members or quench the Spirit.

If you are truely interested in the role of women in the church as leaders and preachers and missionaries - why not find some good biographies and look what God has been doing. I can come up with a list if anyone is interested. There are plenty - that I'm sure you could purchase for "a song" from Amazon.com.

Diane

It’s amazing to see this topic still going on, and no closer to resolution than it began!

Yes and yet not all that surprising either ... An older posting that up till now hesitated to bring to the fore;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17229&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?[/url]

30 some odd pages and links within to even more, earlier discussions. Would only say tread with caution, take it with a grain of salt, a great deal of hubris and emotion and emphesis on the incidentals but neglecting of the root of the matter, not too disimilar to a great deal of this current posting.

Redundantly, but a great help to understanding authority in general;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=949]A Look At Authority 1: Spiritual & False [/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=944]A Further Look At Authority 2: Delegated Authority[/url] [i]by Stephen Kaung[/i]

[b]Description:[/b] This sermon looks at the nature of authority and also deals with the fact of false authority. It starts with Romans 13 and moves through many Scriptures dealing with authority, submission, and obedience. Kaung shows that only God deserves complete obedience and that he must be obeyed at all costs. The main message of the sermon can be summed up in this quote from the message: "God is the only authority in the Universe. There is no authority whatsoever except God himself -- and what God has given. … There is so much misunderstanding about authority; we mistake something that’s commonly accepted as authorities (sic) without really knowing what authority really is. … God is the one and only authority. Any professed authority that is not from God -- that is not God himself -- is not real authority, because God is the only authority in the whole universe. … The more you give, the more authority you have. The Lord Jesus said, ‘I gave myself a ransom for many.’ Because he gave himself as a ransom for many, the many come under his authority. If you want to be the first among your brothers and sisters, then you have to be a bond-slave, not only to Christ, but to your brothers and sisters.”

From yet another posting on this subject matter (that incidentaly ending up being locked ...)

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13907&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Woman should not teach men.[/url]

Think I am more concerend over the overshooting and overlooking of just core issues amidst all the scripture flinging ... that's a rather coarse way of putting it, but roles, order, authority as God intended is far more simplistic and I am want to say 'natural', so much so that even the general masses of the unsaved 'get it' without any streneous effort of the fleshly gray matter. Granted, this day has so meshed gender roles and for a lack of a better term, duties\\obligations as to make them indistinguishable one from another but I am thinking of the more common man, the ones without any voice or impetus to give their two cents ...

That the church has so misconstrued things that the effort to dismantle it or untangle it seems ... well, not too different from the attempts here. Not all of it mind you, but doesn't the lack of any resolution or grasp of the core matters tell us anything 20, 30 pages later? "What about _____?" seems to be a certain chasing of the tail in endless, incidnetal circles. Seems better to start over, start from the begining, from the roots and principles ...

Sigh, am reluctant to get bogged down in all this. Haven't changed my mind one iota on this matter of understanding just how wonderful it is that we do have these distinctions. It is more than the fact that God Himself set them about between us, it is that they are wonder-full to behold ...

Ironically, just had to stop mid-thought to breakup a cat fight on my roof, Daddy's girl defending her turf, fur flying everywhere ...

Am more reluctant than I know, rather than my opinion ... maybe just some underscoring of a few items, from Adam Clarkes earlier commentary if I may;

[i]It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call [u]dictating[/u] in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was [u]perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men[/u] in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for [u]regulating her personal appearance[/u] when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is [u]their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc.,[/u] in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts [u]to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them[/u]; for the apostle has in view, especially, [u]acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.[/u][/i]

Roots. Elemental things. Roles. Authority. Order.

If I might add a few more words of consideration without putting them towards specific application;

Domineering.
Dominant.
Over bearing.

We have seen it here over the years in instances of the discussions. There is an unchecked impulse, (yet another word) and less we men think we can not be chastised for our own usurping and condcut ...

[i]Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according unto God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock.[/i] 1Pe 5:2,3 (RV)

Emphesis ...

Tend the flock
Exercising oversight
Not of constraint (I.E. Manipulation?)
Willingly
According unto God
Of a ready mind
Neither as lording it over
The charge allotted to you
Making yourselves ensamples to the flock

Extra emphesis, [i]Lording it over[/i]

One last consideration and that is all that this is towards, considering ...

[i]And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men ...

And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, and saying ...

Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.[/i] Act 14:11-16

There is a principle and a root in there ...

To me personally Art Katz has said it best and I personally will go with what he says.

On Interpreting Scripture
by Art Katz

The Bible is another kind of literature. It is utterly unique. I have been a reader all my life long, but there is nothing like the Scripture for conveying depths of meaning in so few words. The scriptures are terse, compact, and intense, and that puts a great demand upon us to draw out the meaning-which is not the least of God’s purposes for giving us the written Word. He wants us to be students of the Word; He wants us to draw out the meaning by the operation of His Spirit and by our dependency upon Him. So much, if not everything, is the issue of revelation. And revelation is the issue of Spirit. And God is not going to give revelation to arrogant personalities, to those who want knowledge only that they may flaunt it, or exhibit it, or show themselves off. The revelations of God are precious, but they are requiring. “To whom much is given, much is required.”

Who of us has not been guilty of misusing the Word of God? We can do this by not accepting the Word of God on its literal face value, but interpreting it in metaphorical and allegorical ways, which is to say spiritualizing the Word of God. There has been more damage done by this liberty than we can ever understand. Once you take that kind of liberty with the Word, of giving it your meaning because it suits your fancy, or it is in keeping with your mindset, what does that do in terms of your relationship with God Himself? “In the beginning was the Word.” God Himself is the Word, and when man exalts himself as God’s interpreter, he always stands in danger of exalting himself above the Word, which is to exalt himself above God. It is deadly. So this issue of correctly drawing out the meaning of the scriptures needs to be done with the deepest reverence for God. Nor is there a single meaning or interpretation for any one text. The Word of God is so rich that it allows for many different applications and meanings.

You can find allegorical meanings. An allegory is where something stands for something else. You take a literal word and you impart to it a spiritual or significant meaning, and there is a place for that, but not a first place. Our first responsibility is to discern God’s literal intention for that word. Allegorical interpretation must never displace the literal interpretation. For example, in the history of the Church, there has been an enormous rejection of the literal statements of God for Israel. I am persuaded that the early church fathers [and later ones!] did not want to see Israel glorified. They did not want to see a restored nation, or that it would become the locus of God’s millennial kingdom and glory, so they interpreted every such reference as to mean the Church; that Zion does not mean a particular location in Jerusalem, but only something symbolic, allegorical, and metaphorical for the Church. Now you can preach wonderful messages that way and inspire the Church, but it would be a pity that in the process of that we have the lost the literal intention of God.

Another reason why literal meanings have been traditionally avoided is that the implication of the literal meaning is too radical in terms of its requirement upon us. So we want to get off the hook, and one way to do that is to give the scriptures a poetic and spiritualized meaning. And so, we have to fight to restore the original intention of God for His Word. What if the word “glory” becomes for us a cliché? Better that our lips were sealed than that we should speak the word rather than cheapening it or demean it by too much and too shallow a reference. When we say we are jealous for the glory of God, we better have a sense of what that glory means, because if it has only become a cliché and a phrase, we will not be capable of the suffering that precedes it. In other words, if we allow the word to lose its real value, we have lost the only thing that would have been the incentive to suffer to have obtained it. This is the nature of truth in God, and let us be jealous to safeguard His word, both in spirit and in truth.

I will probably be reprimanded for being so blunt and honest.

I have come to believe that wherever there are “walls” among God’s people (as we see here) it is best to remember who we are in Christ: In him we have our identity - and that assurance is enough. Christ’s favour (blessing) is ours regardless of our gender, status, race, or rank in society or church.

Who receives the favour of God? It is not determined by distinctions or roles. Jesus taught us:
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few……….”

In Africa about 2400 people are being added to the church monthly. Many of the leaders are women. There is a crying shortage of people trained and knowlegable enough to keep the church on course. And so the people are vulnerable to heresy.

May our burden intensify - regarding the equipping of leaders raised up and ordained by God. And may our prayers and interests be directed towards the edification of one another – for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

Diane

Bill, thanks for the Katz piece ...

[i]Another reason why literal meanings have been traditionally avoided is that the implication of the literal meaning is too radical in terms of its requirement upon us. So we want to get off the hook,...[/i]

Ouch. Truth though ...

[i]... and one way to do that is to give the scriptures a poetic and spiritualized meaning. And so, we have to fight to restore the original intention of God for His Word. What if the word “glory” becomes for us a cliché? Better that our lips were sealed than that we should speak the word rather than cheapening it or demean it by too much and too shallow a reference.[/i]

How many examples of just such things ... 'anointing' ... "The" prophetic ...
Katz is dead on correct about drawing out the meaning in the first instance, if we cannot be about doing that ... My appreciation for words and their meanings and by that their intentions redoubled in large part to his own place of import he stressed upon them. Eternally grateful to the man of God for that amongst so many other things.

Dear sisters ... Would hate to lose sight of some things here ...

I think he hit the nail on head. I just wished he would have held to his position and made you guys talk about what MEN should be doing as opposed to women. (I wonder if THAT discussion would end up being 9 to 30 pages long? I seriously doubt it.)

That is a bit difficult considering what the topic is here but if you think about it, the bulk of the discussion on this forum is geared to that very thing, what we men ought to be doing. I know you mean more specifically and directly and you certainly have a point about what drives this to such extremes ... There really isn't that much spoken about the issue in scriptures.

I don't know that this needs to be so blown out of proportion, nor that the emotions need to draw it off to contending over motivations. If I may be as blunt as Art in stating [i]why literal meanings have been traditionally avoided is that the implication of the literal meaning is too radical in terms of its requirement upon us[/i] that Paul's address's were just stating the obvious when it comes to all of this? It seems that way to me ...

I wholehearted agree with Krisp's assessment and even Diane's mention about what to do with the lack of leaders in Africa. But if I had to key in on anything;

[i]There is a crying shortage of people trained and knowlegable enough to keep the church on course.[/i]

Discipleship! Are we not so much at odds and so disengaged because of this very lack? Doesn't this also put directly into perspective why we have [i]men[/i] who are skirting their spiritual responsibilities ... We don't train them, we just give them the 'day pass' (good forever seemingly) and then need to find clever ways to get them 'involved with men's ministry' it's frankly ridiculous. It's why the root of the matter is the matter ... Changes at the [i]core[/i] of our being.

Apologize as the thought's are running in various directions but I left off here with another 'd' word.

Dignity.

Can I just draw off of this a bit and back to core matters? These designed distinctions that God has purposed and made evident are wonderful, tremendous ... differences. Yes, all one in Christ Jesus. But this blurring of the lines, of the genders and roles - even 'offices' and titles, is it not the core issue of this matter of homosexuality? As an example, what if it was say ... [i]Mark[/i] who broke the alabaster vial and poured it upon Jesus feet? It's beyond creepy ...

Does this make any sense, what I am after? Are we overdoing this simple matter of what each of us are designed to not only do but [i]be[/i]?

Dignity. I am thinking primarily of the dignity of a woman and the place of importance in that grandest of statements;

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

What is this adorning and ornament? And why, pray tell is the emphasis so often distracted from this grand truth? It's precious in the Lords sight and to the man of God just as much so ... It is that inward quality that speaks louder than words without the use of them!

If I may give yet another example, a simple one. It needs some preface in that it wasn't by imagination or that other terrible thing we are want to do, impress our thoughts onto situations, measuring and calculating them before hand .. our presuppositions and presumptions ... The first time I met Zac Poonen and Mrs. Poonen I was struck by her [i]dignity[/i], it was unspoken and also unmistakable. All that out of a simple hello? Yes. And it wouldn't have mattered if I had not the foggiest idea of who she was, it is just evident, it is something carried and expressed effortlessly. The whole point of the illustration and God forgive me for even bringing the dear ladies name into all this ... is how does one carry that into the realm of contending with men ... yes I do mean 'teaching', but I also have in mind Paul's mind (I pray). I am at pains to express the difference, that their are instances and incidents in scripture that are not [i]precedent[/i], Deborah or the Queen of Sheba just cannot be compared to the situations that Paul was speaking to, in fact, has it ever occurred to us why he had need to address it in the first place?

Saints, I fear we get all off track and bogged down in what each other is doing or not doing and put that as the impetus on something like this, which is under discussion here.

Maybe I am just old fashioned and still believe that this is all much ado over nothing, that it is made that way because we cannot just take it at face value, which even though the scriptures are silent does make me wonder why there wasn't the outcry over the situation when it was occurring in response to Paul's admonishens ... If it wasn't then, then why is it now?

You sisters are precious for who you are and dare we men not only traverse upon your God given opportunities and ... make-up (no pun intended) we run the risk of forgetting that tucked away little mention;

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [u]effeminate[/u], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

by reversing roles and breaking the alabaster box. But sisters, likewise ... I pray I am understood and making sense with this, is there not just some good old fashioned common sense that is applicable, that there is an obviousness to all this?

Again I apologize but one more that came to mind earlier;

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Nature.

It cannot be the 'length' or even the hair if I could stretch the credulity to it's breaking point. What are we to do with the Nazarites then? No, the principle and drawn out meaning has to be that which would lend to [i]shame[/i] and that must be again, the nature of it ...

Dear saints is this really all that difficult to understand?

Mike your post deserves to be acknowledged! It is rich.

I must admit, I had to chuckle at this line:

is there not just some good old fashioned common sense that is applicable, that there is an obviousness to all this?

Now Mike, I think you are suggesting that the same problem may be happening to the biblical references related to this thread topic. I’ll consider that possibility. Certainly, in the Jewish culture of the day, the women were not even part of the religious teaching. They were out in their own court gabbing away – not learning a thing. Suddenly they are told to hush up and listen without interrupting or usurping the process of teaching. Suddenly they are to be responsible learners as equal members in the Kingdom!

THAT application would indeed apply today, would it not! In other words, hush up folks, and silence your racing thoughts, your opinions and presuppositions - and expose yourselves to the possibility of new paradigms: more accurate (reasonable, sensible) Biblical thinking – taught by those who are divinely equipped to do so - the wider Body of the church - authors, commentators, church historians,Greek scholars,and so forth) Everybody should be learners, don't you think?

Now, here we are on SI, craving revival. We know that one of the big hindrances relates to the malignant spread of false teaching by influential leaders – basically male (good “order” here!) Does it not take submissive people to keep these movements going? Obviously the practise of submission to spiritual authorities is alive and well. Countless have made man their spiritual head - and they don't question anything, even if it makes no sense.

Do we really want to interpret scripture in a way that enables a trend that has been practised for centuries, that has kept false and abusive religion alive and flourishing?

God forbid!

Of course, the solution related to these matters is not to confine any scripture to a bigone age, but to find out how it was meant to protect and build the Church – then and now: find the universal principles.

”I keep asking the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you , the riches of his glorious inheritance….” Eph. 1:17-18

Diane

roadsign wrote:

Do we really want to interpret scripture in a way that enables a trend that has been practised for centuries, that has kept false and abusive religion alive and flourishing?

God forbid!

Of course, the solution related to these matters is not to confine any scripture to a bigone age, but to find out how it was meant to protect and build the Church – then and now: find the universal principles.

Hi roadsign,

I thought I would comment on this portion of a good piece of writing you have submitted sister.

The posts I have written on here has been hopefully according to -

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Scripture must be interpreted by the anointing of the Holy Spirit. How can we preach/teach anything to anyone apart from the Holy Spirit. It the anointing that teaches the regenerated man (male/female).

I believe as God has shown me through brokenness (something God uses to break us so he could get the anointing to flow through us to others)we are to minister through the anointing to others.

Recently , I have been more aware of this through great trials. The Word was breathe by the Holy Spirit and if we are to understand it properly it can only be by the breath of the Spirit.

I have heard preacher's preach, and the aim of the message was to please the flesh, with a man centered gospel.

I have even heard preaching on this site, from a link someone put on a post recommending the message, and the man was very knowledgeable, but the way he presented it was so stern and hard.

I have been praying to the Lord, because I don't want to misrepresent Him. We must be filled with the Holy Spirit and He is not an option.

I believe He makes it clear in the word that anything being built today apart from the Holy Spirit will not be accepted.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What gets me about this whole converstaion, is that it will always be brought up, regardless of any outcome that may be "achieved", until the Lord comes.

A great contradiction I see is that folks will defend something that is not even scriptual, all the while trying to silence those who actually acknowledge the inspired word of God as absolute.

Regardless of the name calling, insinuations of shauvanism, feminist fervor, etc... None of this added banter changes the word of the Lord. His word is final and just.

I continue to pray that the Lord would continue to raise up men and women that will fight for the truth of His word and not succumb to the ways of the world.