Women in ministry:..All of Isaiah 61.....Your thoughts?

You can find women with tremendous hearts for
God and His Word and prayer is almost any real
Church. There are many women who have devoted
themselves entirely to ministry to the broken,
desperate, lonely, lost, needy, poor all over
the world!! I say, GOD BLESS THEM MIGHTILY!!

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Reconciliation; That is of ministry.

We know no human being after the flesh. No male or female, and in making all One in Christ He speaks to that man. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Why? 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Who has this ministry of reconciliation?

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

New Creatures, a New Creation Race of God's chosen son's as The Son being our new Creation-Creature life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Who has this ministry of reconciliation?

All in Christ Jesus, notwithstanding any prejudice of women to this ministry.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Reconcile Brother, Reconcile Sisters, for we are all One in Christ Jesus who has taken away the the same wall of partition that was in Jew and Gentile, also male and female. We are One in Him.

Making of two, ONE. Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Does this not include all commandments and ordinances in the law, and by Himself being in us making ONE new man be we male or female.

Is this not the peace of God in Christ Jesus that the God promised, we would enter His Peace.

I love you brothers and sisters and make no distinction between male or female, by who we are in Christ Jesus our lord. Personally, I prefer females in all their glory, as Adam said WOW, thank you Lord. If women in Christ Jesus preach, I in Christ Jesus will listen, hearing Him, not male or female but the Christ that is in us. Be ye reconciled to God. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

Praise the Lord, Granddaughters are like that, and great granddaughters. Grand-pa's quiver is full. Thank you Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

Hey, I have even heard someone say because the women are the weaker vessels and are easily deceived, so they are not to teach.

But it's alright to teach the women and children!! So are they saying, it's ok for the children and other women to be deceived by their teaching but just not the men.

That's the reason I have stated on another post that it is the anointing that teaches us by a God called and gifted person (male or female -God's choice)

rbanks

I would like to hear from my sisters on these issues. We need you.

We all need each other, for only in each other can we be complete in Him - and in Him we will all fall naturally into the place that He would have us to be.

Brothertom wrote:

RBanks: Women are not to teach, nor our they to usurp authority over men. This is not because they are the weaker vessel, which the Word declares they [b]are[/b] [I didn't write that!], but because they are separated from all [b]Governmental ministry; IE, [/b] Pastoring, teaching, and doctrinal matters. This may include the fact that women are weaker vessels by nature, and that the Head of the Woman is man, and the Head of every man, is Christ.

I hope this doesn't anger you. but My input here is that everything in Isaiah 61, which is in effect, [b]the Ministry[/b], is neither male nor female. It is a control issue, or governmental conflict , that is centered around Teaching, and Pastoral duties that are in Question here. Ministry, not teaching, or the dispensing of power, is the focus of the Liberty for all, in Isaiah 61.

I will reiterate; I have not found one woman teacher, or Pastor, that had not entered into some form of error, and the longer they did it, the more profound the error. This includes the wives of Pastors, that have assumed the role of their husbands, the dreaded ... Pastorette! "Pastors John and Suzy Doe!" Expect apostasy around the next bend....Really.

Some of greatest Saints, and powerful, have been women. The ministry is Isaiah 61. That is neither male nor female.

I would enjoy another thread to hear your definition of this, for I think it delves into the ROOT of the matter, and I really want to see my sisters set free.

Not angry at all! I went back and looked at your 1st post for some clarity. My posts are in defense of women being able to teach as well as yours. I was only implying what I have heard someone else say not what you have said.

Here is something to think about. In general the bible says that a woman is the weaker vessel (meaning feminine vs. masculine) and that she was deceived. The bible also says the woman is not to power over the man (chiefly meaning her husband who is her head)but also could mean having the chief authority over an assembly.

We know any person male or female, if not grounded in the word can lead people astray. We must judge all teaching by the foundational teaching already laid. We also know that the cross deals with the old man (male & female). So a person (male or female)must be dealt with by the cross, rooted in the word and spirit-filled in order to do ministry acceptable to God. The spirit of God qualifies them for ministry.

Here is where I disagree with some who would shoot all the women down from teaching/preaching because they are a woman, as Paul did not do because they were laboring with him in the gospel. Scripture is clear, God pours out his spirit on sons and daughters to prophesy.

Peter even said in his writings that the leaders were to be examples and were not to Lord over God's heritage. We all must have a covering. The man's head is Christ but let us not think that the woman's head is not also Christ. Where the woman is not married, she has no other head but Christ only. But when the woman is married, her head is her husband because God has given the leadership responsibility to the man to love his wife like Christ loved the church and to look out for the welfare of his home. Sad to say not many are striving to do this!

The main government of the local church should be lead by spirit filled, rooted in the word,(most of the time)men of God. Women who are spirit filled and also rooted in the word should not be disqualified because of their agenda, they should only be disqualified when they are not teaching/preaching sound doctrine which by the way disqualifies men also.

I have trouble with anyone being the sole authority. I will say according to the bible and the way God has designed women as being feminine instead of masculine that they are not to desire authority over men. But they are not to be disqualified from ministry, of the spirit in teaching/preaching.

I believe to pastor a church, is generally for the man. I know of a few women pastors. I will not shoot them down, although I believe they need to be under authority. If they are married they are not to have authority over their husband. They are not to be the sole authority of their local church. The man also must be accountable when he is ministering the word.

all for now,

rbanks

rbanks,

I respect your views, but your entire post is your opinion on the matter backed up with the following claims:

I believe,
I will,
I have,
also could mean,
should be,
should not be,
let us not think,
I disagree,

Do you see where this is going? Your entire post is a conjucture of personal thoughts.

–noun 1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
3. Obsolete. the interpretation of signs or omens.
–verb (used with object) 4. to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
–verb (used without object) 5. to form conjectures.

Brother. Your personal beliefs are of no matter in this case. The scripture that Krispy posted is not up for debate or for a guideline. It is the written word of God that needs to be obeyed.

To try to change its meaning means that you are trying to change the word of God. This is sin.

Thank you for the rebuke Brothertom. As always with a fellow brothers rebuke towards me, I will pray on it and seek the Lord.

You words towards me, though they may be well placed, do not circumvent the inspired word of God and His commands, and does not change the meaning of His word. If I convey this poorly, I appologize and ask for forgiveness.

But, when people try to change the word of God for self-serving purposes, I am commanded to address it, as are you. It has been addressed.

If you believe me not to be a false prophet, please pray that the Lord speaks through me, and not against me.

Miccah wrote:
rbanks,

I respect your views, but your entire post is your opinion on the matter backed up with the following claims:

I believe,
I will,
I have,
also could mean,
should be,
should not be,
let us not think,
I disagree,

Do you see where this is going? Your entire post is a conjucture of personal thoughts.

Brother. Your personal beliefs are of no matter in this case. The scripture that Krispy posted is not up for debate or for a guideline. It is the written word of God that needs to be obeyed.

To try to change its meaning means that you are trying to change the word of God. This is sin.

I think I will just let those without sin cast the stones!

My thoughts are from my understanding. I want that to be clear, because I do fear God. I believe his word and my understanding is not -thus saith the Lord. I would be very much afraid to claim that God said something He did not say.

I only pray that my personal thoughts will be pleasing in God's sight, so that when I convey them to others, they can see the love of God. I have not reached perfection. But I am trusting in Him who is perfect, and I hope to be conformed into his likeness.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Just my opinion, (not thus saith the Lord out of my fear of God to never say such a thing, because it is truly my understanding),Our thoughts and revelations that we receive from our study of the word of God will be our understanding, that will also shape and mold our character.

It is very important how we interpret the word of God. The reason so many are in error today is because they think their understanding is a thus saith the Lord. They can quote the scriptures and think they understand it but they will not come to the living Christ that they might have life.

just my personal thoughts -rbanks

Why will it not occur in our present system. What is meant by "outside the camp?"

Brothertom wrote:

"outside the camp"

Generally it is the Word that Jesus spoke about "New wine must be poured into new wineskins!". This has been occurring since the resurrection within the walls of the Church, as the Church"settles on it's leas", a term of self sufficiency, or the template of the Laodicean rebuke in Revelation. We tend toward a form of Godliness, while in Reality throw down our Cross, in Favor of self serving gospels; those of health, happiness, and financial prosperity as paramount, rather than be changed inwardly as Christ.

Jesus was only received outside of the camp, and it was there that He was Crucified. Hebrews, the Bible book, exhorts us to meet Jesus, in this context. "Let us go unto Him, outside the camp".....

This is where the remnant Church has always been, with few exceptions. The reason is that the Pharisee's control the temple ground, the clergy/laity, the Nicolaitan one man rule..[and the pyramid of rulers under them..] and the vestiges of all Holy Spirit issues that have been quenched by mans smelly hand of domination. This is where the Lord Himself is denied, and quenched.

So the Lord Himself made a way, even in the wilderness,,,,,and outside of the Camp of religious Babylon. This is the Radical wilderness home of the early Church at Jerusalem, ans the primitive foundations that the Apostle Paul layed....outside of the camp.

Awesome response Brothertom!!! This needs to be read over & over again.

Brother your posts have blessed me tremendously!

Thanks -rbanks

Wow! It looks like this topic of gender roles is a hot one! I’m trying to understand why it holds such interest. After all, it likely affects few SI'er personally. (It seems to me that there are much more serious matters threatening the church)

While the debate over Biblical interpretation will go on till eternity, there is one way in which we can gain insight, a way that God has provided and that we aren’t making as good use of as we could.

“Remember those earlier days….” (…) “Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses….. “ Heb. 10:32; 12:1

Yes, let history speak into the matter – the works of God in the past among his people. Unfortunately postmodernity is mocking history. "After all, it’s all just people’s interpretation anyway." But that to me is dangerous thinking.

Recently our church book club read a fiction story about someone who made a mess of his “missionary” job in Africa. I suggested that they read TRUE stories about missionaries who did marvelous works. I have shelves of auto/biographies and would be happy to suggest one. .... Still no takers... I guess no one is eager for a mind-alteration. (Why is it that humans like to focus on bad stuff??)

And yes regarding women too: There are many astounding accounts. After reading these stories, your attention will not be drawn to what people did/did not, can/cannot do in church work, but to our great and awesome God – what he can do through a humble and willing servants. Yes, God becomes the object of our marvel, and roles diminish in size.

These accounts also quickly silence and humble us all. Any women (men too!) who may desire leadership roles or "equal opportunity" will find their zeal quickly tempered, as they realize that they are mere grasshoppers standing beside these great saints of the past.

As I have offered on the other thread (but got no takers) – if any one is interested in what God has been doing through women, I can offer a list of books which no doubt you can purchase very cheaply from Amazon.com. (books that the church libraries have been discarding, in favor of contemporary fiction.)

Any takers?

Diane

I haven’t ignored your post, Brothertom, just wished to let it mull a bit. And now, I feel a need to precede my list with some critical disclaimers.

Just yesterday my husband drew my attention to a survey he read on gender roles, pointing out that females tend to choose occupations where they can work with living beings, whereas males are more inclined to prefer working with non-living things.

That thought dovetails nicely with the scriptures the Lord gave me surrounding this matter: the account of Mary and Martha. Martha was chastised by Jesus because she had placed the role of ministering to people ahead of the need to receive spiritual food from Jesus. Here we see an ever present temptation for women: the need to help others in order to feel right about themselves and gratified. While the desire to minister [serving: Gr. v. diakoneo] may be a noble aspiration, it can also become a snare, as the Mary/Martha account illustrates.

In fact, James 1:13-15 is an appropriate reference here: evil desire leads to sin which leads ultimately to death. Now, that is just what I am seeing in the role of ministry in the church, and many are falling right into the trap. In our various denominations the minister/pastor is typically not nearly as much a leader as a follower. He/she must follow the dictates and philosophies of the denomination – which to a significant extent in these days are a compromised message of the Gospel: politically correct, people pleaser, worldly philosophy. In other words, unwittingly, they may actually be a pawn for somebody else’s evil desires, including political agendas.

Is it worth selling your soul to this in order to satisfy your need to be needed, or your desire to have “equality”, status, a good pension, and a sense of great achievement academically. In the end of the day, rather than having helped bring life, you may discover that you have merely helped bring about death.

After we do some more mulling, I will include a brief list of names of women who I regard as having been true leaders in the name of the Lord….. I do so not to justify anyone's agenda but to strengthen our own faith and make us desire to be more like Mary.

Without a doubt the Lord can use those who have their priorities right. And it doesn’t have to be in the context of organized religion – but it may include that.

To my fellow sisters (and brothers too), May we find our fulfilment in the Lord himself. And then unmet needs will not defile our passions.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit....... blessed are.... blessed are..... blessed are.......... " (Get the picture?)

Diane

You know…… over the years, after you’ve encountered far too many burnt-out, wounded, sick, embittered soldiers of the church– both in the clergy and the laity, you begin to feel that this debate over gender roles is like staring cross-eyed at a sliver extracted from a monstrous log jam.

One of the logs in the jam could be our inability recognize the extent to which we have applied a worldly understanding of authority and submission to the church and the biblical text. Another, as I’ve pointed out, is the issue of subconscious unmet needs leading to faulty reasons for desiring roles in the church... Also throw into the mix the problem of relational/societal dysfunction... ecclesiastical baggage from past centries....

Another log is our inability to recognize human limitations, and the propensity to do God’s job while failing to let God be God.

God only knows what other logs exist - that we fail to see because their enormity blocks our vision. Our understanding of Biblical text is bound to be obstructed by these logs. Thus, in view of such a malady among us, God’s people, perhaps its time to hush up – which is what I need to do!

Well, now that I have said my piece, I post a few names. But, really, it in no way remotely recognizes many of our faithful sisters: I think of a friend, a Wycliffe Bible translator in North Africa. I think of another sister who teaches and counsels pastors in Italy, another friend who directs a home mission....

(googling the names should lead to book titles)

Catherine Booth
Rosalind GoForth
Fanny Crosby (who was a dynamic preacher – in league with Moody and Sankey)
Dr. Pauline Hamilton “To a Different Drum” (I highly recommend it – and it’s only 1 cent on Amazon.com!!)
Gladys Alyward
Mary Slessor
Elizabeth Fry
Corry Ten boon
Amy Carmichael
Jackie Pullinger
Joni Erickson
Kay Arthur (who has done wonderful ground breaking work in bringing inductive Bible study into the hands of the laity.)

Of course the brightest lights for the Lord will be those whom we will never know – till eternity. Maybe highest honor will go to the unnamed faithful mother who teaches in her home by example, word and deed, and who prays, solitarily, for her family.

Happy reading!

Diane

We seem to be living in a ministry-crazed world where everyone from middle school on in the religious circle has to have a ministry, often, without even having learned Christ, nor to know how to walk in the Spirit with diligence...

One should perhaps offer one's service as in:

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

I haven't read this thread at all really,apologize ahead if this sounds a bit negative, but the title caught my attention. I recently met a 24 year old girl who got all confused when approached by her church that offers her a ministry as a deaconess!!?? (yeah, like Priscilla in Scripture)

So many want to have their own "ministries", so few are willing to love, so far fewer can live holy lives...yeah, I remember I once was tempted too when I was approached to head a dance ministry in a big Baptist church !? Quite ridiculous indeed. Ministry and glamor !?

Serve our Lord by knowing Him, loving Him, praying for one another, sacrificing for one another, providing for the brethren in need, enough of the titles,jargons..etc

mamaluk

Dear Brother Tom,
Until you have been under the headship of a woman you have no idea what you are exposing people to.

I have known of many men who under the supposed freedom of humanism have been exposed to woman teachers. Not someone like Jacki Pullinger who I believe while she is an amazing preacher is literally wearing the pants.

Some take liberties with the scripture whilst knowing all along that they are using patchwork theology. This is nothing new.

Women who start out ok, and then take the reins from their husbands, or from their pastor usually do it because the head is too weak. The body is not submitted to Christ. That is only the first part.

It is saying I only get what I want - sex, a happy home if I give what she wants - control.

This is the point females have a desire for control. Read genesis 4, the desire for your husband literally means desire for headship over her husband. Not wanting to well, you know...

Secondly until you have seen the results of feminism and humanism in the church. These are the greatest tools of satan in destroying the godly Christian home. In short if godly wives should not submit neither should the bride submit to Christ, nor Christ on the cross submit to the will of the father, as Paul put it, "God forbid".

The most recent occurrence of this was as a guest on a radio show, where a woman called the carcus in matthew 24 Christ rapturing the church. It gets crazier by the minute! She claimed God showed her, and she preached this message in malaysia. I hope to put this on the internet because I have access to a recording of the programme.

I have had three guys that I know all have their wives leave them all with the so called jezebel spirit (it's just a name I believe but it could be an actual spirit - I don't know).

One was accused of mollesting his daughter which was a proven lie, the other had his wife (both christian families in both cases) go back to her ex-husband (likely she is cheating on her second husband). In all three cases it was remarriages which opens up another can of worms.

In all three cases they admitted to marrying that person because she was hot and there was a lack of submission on the wifes part and a real desire to destroy the men who they left.

We reap what we sow and for me as a unmarried 27 year old man I have seen enough to make me wait for a godly wife, rather than some pants wearing uncovered hairy armpit (figuratively) body building lumberjack who lords control over her husband. :-o

Proof texting is not an appropriate way to look at this issue either as it uses verses out of context. Sorry brothertom.

Brothertom,

You are asking for sisters to respond to your thread/post. Initially when I saw this title, I did not bother to read it because to me it gets tired, but I decided to read it anyways. Now I have read your original post and the most recent one and none of the others. So what I will say has not be influenced by any other poster or it may echo what others have said.

Women in ministry. What is ministry? Too many think it is preaching to people from the pulpit, leading a congregation. But as I understand ministry it means to serve and that there is a Master somewhere above you. Jesus instructs his disciples that they are to have this mind - in our church conference they call it "servant leadership" in which no church pastor is to Lord himself over his flock: lead but not lord it. Big difference. But I digressed...

To the original question: women in ministry.....I agree females are to leave church leadership to the males - if there are any. The reason I used this qualifier is it has happened that in missionary work sometimes there were no males and the female had to assume this role. However, under normal circumstances, the females are to work with males in whatever needs to be done - as a rule. There are times when males need to butt out, be there to give advice when called upon but otherwise leave them alone. This happens when women are ministering to women and it just ain't proper for men to be closely involved. The opposite is true also when males deal with males on the personal level.

Statistically, females constitute over 50% of the total population which means there are some great needs that need to be met among these females and it just is not always proper for the males to be closely involved in this sphere. This is what females can do and do. But we also need males to support it with their monies and advice.

Brothertom, this whole issue to me is rather ridiculous. Ok, the males are to lead the corporate church - all agreed here. But there are tons of other work to be done to make the world go around. Too many times the problem seems to be "who gets the honor?" and therein lies the problem of this entire issue: everyone is clamoring to get honor for work done or they want to be at the pinnacle of respect. This makes me tired. I say if there is work to be done get with it, do it and don't bother who knows it or whether you get any recognition for it. Let your work be motivated by love for the LORD and people and if people cry 'foul' go somewhere else - this place does not need you. .

Yes, I agree with you Brothertom. This is my piece - not a scholarly one - you did that, no use repeating what has already been said.

Now I must go - do not know if I will have to come back to retract anything, but longtime SI posters will not read anything new from me on this topic.

Bless you, Tom. I do enjoy your balanced, thoughtful posts here on SI. It is a blessing. Now I must quit because my husband wants to use this computer!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

There are smart people in Mississippi... who would have thunk it??

Aw, come on, Steve, there are a few more smart ones here in Missippi - I just had the privilege to be taught by them! Now to you yanks - go eat your heart out! :-P

Seriously, since I wrote this post I have been thinking a lot about this issue. I have two major points to share and they all come from observation from my sojourn on this planet for 61 years - no great accomplishment but I have seen a lot of changes during this time. And may I be so bold as to suggest one has seen more changes in the past 100 years then ever before in the history of the world? Why, my grandfather, who was born in 1900, did not believe man ever landed on the moon. While this sounds ridiculous, it is not when you consider that the concept of the automobile was still only a dream when he was born.

OK, now to my observations.

Feminism has taken a great hold on western Christianity during the past century and more so in the recent 50 years. And one can only ask "why the shift?" I seriously doubt there would have been any serious research done to find out why because you will have to ask some sexist questions which will likely offend some and no corporation will want to co-sponsor such a research project.

I suggest it is because females have this innate desire to be with males, do their work and this need has not been satisfied in childhood. Allow me to explain.

I grew up on a working farm. Dad had a diverse operation in growing food crops as well as raising livestock and fowl. As the oldest child - with no brothers - I was expected to help Dad on the farm. And I did: I gathered, crated thousands of eggs; fed the calves, the chickens; assisted the birthing of baby pigs; milked cows twice a day - rain or shine, hot or cold, mud and no mud; cleaned out the dairy barn after milking; drove tractor doing all kinds of jobs like baling hay/straw, discing corn stalks, etc. Dad taught me how to burn brush piles with gasoline, dock sheep tails. I climbed trees, straw bale piles in the barn, built tunnels in the straw bales. In all this we learned that work needs to be done and it did not depend on well you liked to do it. If we complained we learned THAT is something you did not do. Period! You did it.

Now fast forward to adulthood. When I see females wanting to work in construction, be linemen for an utility company, I think they must be crazy! and I also think they must never have worked on a productive farm: if they would have the desire to do those things would not exist. It was OK to do that as a child but now that we are adults we go to do 'nicer' things and leave that to the MEN! They are made for that, not women! We are all to happy to take the back seat and let them lead! (I do not know that any in my peer group is a feminist because we all grew up in the same rural culture, working hard with Dad, and perhaps some brothers - if you were lucky).

Working hard like this with Dad taught us much: an appreciation for their leadership in all areas of life, be it spiritual (working together gave us many opportunities to discuss the serious issues of life) or physical (my Dad did not allow us girls to do any heavy lifting, saying this will impair your childbearing ability when you become an adult!). We learned by association to be submissive and that we are helpers. Now, how many young modern females can say they have experienced what I did? Very few.

Point #2: I will be using marriage as an analogy to show how cooperation works for the best in any project, and hence its principles apply to the function of the corporate church.

Every male has within his being some gaps that is best filled by a female. These gaps were made, they did not occur because of the fall in the garden. And every women also has gaps and strengths. It works best when you have a couple marry who compliment each other, where the female can fill in the gaps that exist in the male, working together to get the job done and to not worry who gets the credit for it because both know it requires 100% cooperation to complete it successfully.

My husband and I grow tomatoes hydroponically in greenhouses. He tells people he could not do it without me, and I say I could NOT do it without him. The reason for this is because of our innate strengths and interests. My Dh is good in operating the mechanical things (and I am a perfect klutz in this area); and I am skilled in observing the condition of the plants and can easily detect when something needs attention and needs changing. We have learned the hard way to NOT dismiss any red flags that one will see - we have done that to our hurt. We have also learned to take it all seriously, even when the other did not understand it; and no one will imagine a red flag because this work is too serious! The bottom line is that both of us want this thing to succeed and work to this end.

Now, is this not the way the church should operate? All submit to the Master and to each other, working for the common good, recognizing leadership roles as God intended and then get to work? not caring who gets credit for what? Did Jesus not teach us that what is done in secret is what will earn the heavenly reward?

My thoughts....and can't you tell I love males?! God gave me five of them: a husband and four sons! :-) All this besides a loving dad and a baby brother who actually grew up - eventually!

ginnyrose

EDIT: I did not finish my point although it is inferred.
As the general population shifted from rural to urban, children no longer were exposed to their dad and the work involved in making a living. Urban children do not know what work nor what sweat is apart from football. Working together with dad, seeing crops grow or fail, seeing the animals or fowls reproduce and grow with your assistance does something to a child's growth, developement and appreciation for God's creation and for its order, whether it be man or beast. This has been lost and methinks this will facilitate some of the gross misconceptions of life in human relationships, be it in the home or church. Having said this, rural children also need a saviour and learn to submit to Him. ginnyrose

I hope you were talking to someone else when you said that!

I am. But I had no one particular person in mind; least of all you. Now have a good day with your boys! :-)

ginnyrose

[b][size=medium][color=003399]There is no real question. God’s word is very clear, almost blindingly bright to some. [/color][/size][/b]

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. (1Co 14:34-37)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti 2:11-12)

So does any think them self spiritual or a prophet?

So what is ministry, church, subjection and authority?

A womens ministry is most blessed if she is hidden. Listen to The Hidden Woman by Denny Kenaston

Hi great to join you guys on this subject we often err from the reality of the literature of scripture we some time goes about to try to reinterpret scriptures as though it was needed, i will say amen!!! llewellyn made a good commentary on the subject and nowhere in the bible it is mention that Christian need necessary to study theology to understand scriptures remember that scripture were given to ordinary men and women just like us. abiding in the literature side of scripture with the help of the Holy spirit is the safest place to be. let's take quoted passage just as it is.

"According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be [i]public teachers in the church;[/i] for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? 2 Tim. iii. 15. Aquila and his wife Priscilla expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly; but then they did it privately, for they took him unto them, Acts xviii. 26. 6. Here are two very good reasons given for the man's authority over the woman, and her subjection to the man, v. 13, 14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1 Cor. xi. 9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression."

- Matthew Henry's expositions on I Timothy.

1 Timothy 5:14
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Titus 2:3-4
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine,[b] teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children[/b]

I think the above cover the boundary of women ministries, both for the old and the young. Everything else...should better be governed under their husband's headship in the Lord.

God's wisdom in light of church order regarding women, provides not just order, but safeguard for the women and from all sorts of potential problems. (edited out)

It's just not wise for women to "share" their anything with men, private of public, be they gifts, knowledge, etc. Women should best only minister to women. That's not to say when couples visit, that the women couldn't share with one another in the presence of their own husbands. Whereas, to serve, there's always other means of ministries in hospitality, children's work, etc.

In Christ,
Margaret

Matthew Henry seems like an orderly fellow; but Oh so dry.

This is a quotation from MH's commentary on the creation of woman... dry?

In particular I would draw your attention to section 4.

[color=0000FF][i]21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.[/i] Here we have,

[b]I. The making of the woman, to be a help-meet for Adam.[/b]
This was done upon the sixth day, as was also the placing of Adam in paradise, though it is here mentioned after an account of the seventh day's rest; but what was said in general (ch. i. 27), that God made man male and female, is more distinctly related here. Observe, 1. That Adam was first formed, then Eve (1 Tim. ii. 13), and she was made of the man, and for the man (1 Cor. xi. 8, 9), all which are urged there as reasons for the humility, modesty, silence, and submissiveness, of that sex in general, and particularly the subjection and reverence which wives owe to their own husbands. Yet man being made last of the creatures, as the best and most excellent of all, Eve's being made after Adam, and out of him, puts an honour upon that sex, as the glory of the man, 1 Cor. xi. 7. If man is the head, she is the crown, a crown to her husband, the crown of the visible creation. The man was dust refined, but the woman was dust double-refined, one remove further from the earth.

[b]2. That Adam slept while his wife was in making,[/b]
.. that no room might be left to imagine that he had herein directed 20 the Spirit of the Lord, or been his counsellor, Isa. xl. 13. He had been made sensible of his want of a meet help; but, God having undertaken to provide him one, he does not afflict himself with any care about it, but lies down and sleeps sweetly, as one that had cast all his care on God, with a cheerful resignation of himself and all his affairs to his Maker's will and wisdom. Jehovah-jireh, let the Lord provide when and whom he pleases. If we graciously rest in God, God will graciously work for us and work all for good.

[b]3. That God caused a sleep to fall on Adam,[/b]
and made it a deep sleep, that so the opening of his side might be no grievance to him; while he knows no sin, God will take care he shall feel no pain. When God, by his providence, does that to his people which is grievous to flesh and blood, he not only consults their happiness in the issue, but by his grace he can so quiet and compose their spirits as to make them easy under the sharpest operations.

[b]4. That the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam;[/b]
.. not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved. Adam lost a rib, and without any diminution to his strength or comeliness (for, doubtless, the flesh was closed without a scar); but in lieu thereof he had a help meet for him, which abundantly made up his loss: what God takes away from his people he will, one way or other, restore with advantage. In this (as in many other things) Adam was a figure of him that was to come; for out of the side of Christ, the second Adam, his spouse the church was formed, when he slept the sleep, the deep sleep, of death upon the cross, in order to which his side was opened, and there came out blood and water, blood to purchase his church and water to purify it to himself. See Eph. v. 25, 26.[/color]

4. That the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam;.. not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved. Adam lost a rib, and without any diminution to his strength or comeliness (for, doubtless, the flesh was closed without a scar); but in lieu thereof he had a help meet for him, which abundantly made up his loss: what God takes away from his people he will, one way or other, restore with advantage. In this (as in many other things) Adam was a figure of him that was to come; for out of the side of Christ, the second Adam, his spouse the church was formed, when he slept the sleep, the deep sleep, of death upon the cross, in order to which his side was opened, and there came out blood and water, blood to purchase his church and water to purify it to himself. See Eph. v. 25, 26.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man (man, woman or thing) after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Under the Law, including the first one given in the garden, woman is in obedience to the man as man is in obedience to God. Under grace, "henceforth we know no man, which is, "any man woman or thing", after the flesh. But, "after the Spirit". The Spirit is not male or female, hence, in Heaven, there is no man or woman, male or female. If we maintain the Law, then headship is in force, if we administer Grace and our goal is reconciliation, then there is only one Head and that is Christ, for all that are new creatures in Christ.

If a woman is in the flesh and preaching in the Church, she is just like a man in the flesh preaching in the Church. If a woman is in the Spirit, then she is just like a man in the Spirit and the ministry of reconciliation is for both, that are in the Spirit. So, the criteria for ministry is not male and female, but whether either are in the Spirit and In Christ. We must stop this distinction of male a female or the Spirit of God is quenched in the Churc, His Body. I don't know how to express it any better, it is my lack, not Gods'. Male and Female are Christ Ones, and in Christ no dominance but His as our reconciler to Himself and the Father by the Holy Spirit. Male and Female in Christ our only hope of Glory. Even our reconciliation to each other and to the Father by His Son who gave Himself for us and loved us as One in Himself.

Praise God for blessing all that are His, no longer in the flesh, but knowing Him and female and male being in Christ Jesus our Lord and Life. Amen

In Him, as us: Phillip

Male and Female are Christ Ones, and in Christ no dominance but His as our reconciler to Himself and the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Christinyou @ 2008/11/12 22:03

I tremble at the point you guys are pushing this discussion very far, but the surprising and sad reality is that we are relaying more on men's commentary than the literature of the scriptures that seems that we are questioning the apostle Paul understanding and at the same time we'll not say so but we question the inspiration by which he spoke with not that i put these commentary in question but i just don't esteem it higher than scriptures No! scriptures are the final authority.
what scriptures says it says it, if it doesn't it doesn't.

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

rbanks wrote:

Here is something to think about. In general the bible says that a woman is the weaker vessel (meaning feminine vs. masculine) and that she was deceived. The bible also says the woman is not to power over the man (chiefly meaning her husband who is her head)but also could mean having the chief authority over an assembly.

We know any person male or female, if not grounded in the word can lead people astray. We must judge all teaching by the foundational teaching already laid. We also know that the cross deals with the old man (male & female). So a person (male or female)must be dealt with by the cross, rooted in the word and spirit-filled in order to do ministry acceptable to God. The spirit of God qualifies them for ministry.

Here is where I disagree with some who would shoot all the women down from teaching/preaching because they are a woman, as Paul did not do because they were laboring with him in the gospel. Scripture is clear, God pours out his spirit on sons and daughters to prophesy.

Peter even said in his writings that the leaders were to be examples and were not to Lord over God's heritage. We all must have a covering. The man's head is Christ but let us not think that the woman's head is not also Christ. Where the woman is not married, she has no other head but Christ only. But when the woman is married, her head is her husband because God has given the leadership responsibility to the man to love his wife like Christ loved the church and to look out for the welfare of his home. Sad to say not many are striving to do this!

The main government of the local church should be lead by spirit filled, rooted in the word,(most of the time)men of God. Women who are spirit filled and also rooted in the word should not be disqualified because of their agenda, they should only be disqualified when they are not teaching/preaching sound doctrine which by the way disqualifies men also.

I have trouble with anyone being the sole authority. I will say according to the bible and the way God has designed women as being feminine instead of masculine that they are not to desire authority over men. But they are not to be disqualified from ministry, of the spirit in teaching/preaching.

I believe to pastor a church, is generally for the man. I know of a few women pastors. I will not shoot them down, although I believe they need to be under authority. If they are married they are not to have authority over their husband. They are not to be the sole authority of their local church. The man also must be accountable when he is ministering the word.

all for now,
rbanks

I agree with what you have written. Praise God for the men who encourage women to walk in their calling.

I'm not reading through all the posts because I'll just get agitated :) but I know wherein I've been called and I know who called me and equipped me. The Lord didn't call me to minister to men OR to women, He called me to minister to those who have an ear to hear. It's as simple as that.

I really appreciate your discernment in the following statement:

We know any person male or female, if not grounded in the word can lead people astray. We must judge all teaching by the foundational teaching already laid. We also know that the cross deals with the old man (male & female). So a person (male or female)must be dealt with by the cross, rooted in the word and spirit-filled in order to do ministry acceptable to God. The spirit of God qualifies them for ministry.

[u][i][b][size=xx-small][color=006633]All of Isaiah 61.....Your thoughts?[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u]

First this was Isaiah Second it was Christ Third it was the Apostles fourth it was the Church leaders to follow. I never see our sister Mary preach or teach in Acts nor write any letters of correction to the Churches.

Come now, God has not given woman the responsibility to teach men and usurp authority in the Church. They are to get marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. She shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I plead with you look and see that men and woman are one in Christ, but they are still men and woman with different responsibilities and rolls in life to fulfill. The sad truth is the men has left there responsibilities and now woman are confused and left to make a fare show in the flesh to help a desperate backslidden state of the so called church.

Then to bring even more rebuke to us lukewarm men is that God in His mercy and unlimited wisdom bless the feeble efforts of the ladies. This is not done so we can reinterpret scriptures like 1Ti 2:11-12 and 1Co 14:34-37, but rather as a rebuke to us men who likes the back seat.

[i][color=000033] So what I set before you is the following:[/color][/i]

[u][b][size=medium][color=000099]A Precious Gift[/color][/size][/b][/u]
God’s gifts are always good and given for a blessing. Praise be to Him. A prudent wife is from Him .Prov 19:14. Whoso findeth a wife ...obtain favor of the Lord Prov.18:22. A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband Prov.12:4. Yes, truly she has a great value far above rubies and is to be searched for Prov.31:10. She does her husband good all the days of her life. Prov.31:12. A secure gift of love.

In a meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God of great price, 1Pet.3:4 she conducts her life. She feareth God and therefore is praised Prov.31:30. Her children can only but rise up and call her blessed Prov.31:28. Her husbands heart rejoices over her. She has won the trust of her husband through love, honor, respect and submission unto the Lord, and even unto him, knowing his weaknesses. This often humbles and reproofs him deeply 1Pet.3:1.

She was last at the cross, Mark 15:47 and first at the tomb. John 20:1 She was first to proclaim the resurrection, Matt.28:8 and first to proclaim Jesus Christ to the Jews. Luke 2:36-38 She has a great love to serve the church and labor for the gospel. When God choose to use her in preaching, teaching and judging men Judges 4:1-9 the Spirit of truth and humility puts to shame the men, for it is a reproof unto the men in their backslidden state. Using her, God is saying: ”Where are the God fearing men ?”. Because God would rather use men to lead. Ephesians 5:22-31 / 1Cor.14:34-40 / Titus 2:5. She is most effective as the helper of man Gen.2:18 . Where there are spiritual men, she gladly cover herself with a heart of submission and takes great delight to go unnoticed, as she chooses to continue in travailing prayer, sharing her faith and praising God. She has a mandate to proclaim the gospel, Mark 16:15 pray and prophesy Joel 2:28 /Act 21:9 in complete surrender unto God.

In old age she is already well reported for good works, bringing up children and lodging strangers. She is known for washing the saints feet and relieving the afflicted 1Tim.5:10. She is deeply at peace and firmly secure in the Lord. She views herself as a handmaid, Luke 1:38 and her modesty, generosity and holiness with sobriety are crowning qualities 1 Timothy 2:9-15.

She has not been all these things, praise be to God. He has by His Spirit given her a divine nature and placed His attributes of love, servanthood, humility, meekness, submission and patience, to name just a few, in her. She has, through Christ Jesus, become a new creation to reflect His glory. Godly wives, one of God’s precious gifts to man. By L.vd Merwe

A womens ministry is most blessed if she is hidden. Listen to Instructions for a Godly Woman by Helen Leibee

Dear Grysaard,

How wonderfully expressed.

I agree 100% and although my screen name does not show it, I am a woman. However, the judgment on men in the Church in general is, sadly, close to true, it is not the case in my marriage. Thanks be to Jesus.

Continue on with this discussion all you want, it does not change the Word of God.

One of the hardest things for me to master, since I have become a Christian, is my tongue. At times I believe I should cut it out. The greatest comfort is reading Paul's confession of his frustration with the same problem.

Praise the Lord for this medium we have to communicate.

Kind regards,
white stone

One of the hardest things for me to master, since I have become a Christian, is my tongue. At times I believe I should cut it out. The greatest comfort is reading Paul's confession of his frustration with the same problem.

Rom:7:15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I have always though that this could apply to speaking 'out of turn' or being sharp.

Knowing I should bring Jesus into my conversations, I find myself speaking only of worldly things and losing opportunities to witness. Worse, instead of leaving the impression of the One True Lord, I leave the impression of Me, Myself, I. The ego obsessed one who is immersed in worldly things and filled with pride. This is too easy to do.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? Perhaps, I should ask, what do you think I am saying? Then I might be able to make it clearer a second time around (Lord willing, I get a 2nd chance).

Kindest regards,
white stone

Here are some scriptures that speak about the tongue.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

The Holy Spirit is the only one who can tame the tongue as we allow him to fill us and to govern our lifestyle.