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Justified but not regenerated

B
BeYeDoers

This was touched on a few years ago in a huge thread regarding Baptism in the Holy Spirit and its distinction from fillings. It was not really pursued, though.

Is it possible to be justified and not regenerated? What would this look like?

I know the Calvinist would say "no" because they believe that regeneration starts the whole process. But I think the weight of OT scripture (God's picture book) and the NT application (Heb, Rom) says otherwise. What do y'all think?

C
Compton

To be honest, this question seems Roman Catholic to me. As I remember in conversations with a Catholic friend, he was ever trying to pry justification apart from salvation. This is the low view of justification that keeps people under bondage in my opinion.

It is possible to be justified and yet immature. Yet even an immature Christian has a change of heart that accompanies justification. This is the high view of justification that needs to be defended in not only Calvinism but all true Christianity.

No less an Arminian than John Wesley, in his sermon "Almost Christian" esteems the precious inward sense of forgiveness that comes with justification as the culminating event in his devout religious life. For a man that had already proven his spiritual rigor in both public service and private devotion, it is quite a high view indeed of forgiveness that it was this alone that assured him he was at last, 'altogether Christian.' Wesley's testimony, as well that of Hebrews, is that resting in forgiveness is the ultimate fruit of being a Christian...and true rest can only come from justification.

However, I fear this topic has no end. New Perspectives on the doctrine of Justification are rampant today. The premise is that the reformers didn't understand Paul, and so maybe we need to revisit aspects of Roman theology once again. I think we are making things too hard without...dare I say... justification to do so. ;-)

I'll be curious what others might say here.

Blessings,

MC

K
KingJimmy

My understanding of this issue goes like this... God created the world simply through speaking. He said, "Let there be light!" and there was light. God's word is creative and powerful. It does something. Thus, when God declares us righteous, that same powerful and creative word which created the heavens and the earth when God spoke does a powerful and creative work in us. That is, when God declares us righteous, we actually become what God declares us to be. A regenerative change in nature thus is accomplished merely through His declaring us just. For God's word does not return void. It accomplishes whatever it says.

T
theopenlife

BeYeDoers, for the sake of clarity would you please define some terms as you understand them?

What is regeneration? What does it accomplish, and what is different about a regenerate person versus an unregenerate one?

You mentioned Old Testament passages which seem to imply justification proceeding regeneration. Could you please cite these for consideration?

Lastly, are you aware that the Old Testament often portrays examples of of civil/ceremonial justification, as opposed to spiritual justification? For instance, the Mosaic Covenant primarily levied [b]temporal consequences[/b] for sins. Because these temporal consequences were [i]on top[/i] of the eternal consequences, God could graciously withdraw the temporal consequences while leaving the eternal guilt untouched. For instance, in 1 Kings 21:20-29, God confronted wicked Ahab and promised temporal judgments for his many sins. Ahab "rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly" and so the Lord removed the temporal judgments for a time. This was not the same thing as eternally justifying someone. Frequently in the Old Testament the temporal curses of the Law are lifted without actual regeneration, which gives the appearance of justification.

Any related scriptures will be beneficial. Thank you.

B
BeYeDoers

Compton, I can assure you my question has nothing to do whatsoever with Romanism!

Jimmy, just to clarify, you stand that the imputing of righteousness by its very nature imparts righteousness? But you are NOT saying that God gives us righteousness and this is what justifies us, correct?

Theopenlife, My definitions:
Justification: The declaration by the Judge as "not guilty". Abraham was justified by faith. Results in "when I see the blood I will pass over you." Christ is the propitiation supplied by God. Faith in Christ applies the blood and God reckons us "right".

Regeneration: The birth from above that results in a "new creature". New spirit, new heart, new mind, etc. I see this in the OT in the flood (Noah had already been declared righteous, but God took 8 people to put in the ark covered in pitch and bring them safe through the waters that killed all wickedness on the earth, such that it was a "new creation"). Same thing with the Israelites passing through the Red Sea, when they had already been passed over by the Angel of Death b/c the blood from the propitiation had been applied.

I believe Wesley said that in thinking, the order is justification, then regeneration; but that it plays out virtually simultaneously in real-time.

K
KingJimmy


Jimmy, just to clarify, you stand that the imputing of righteousness by its very nature imparts righteousness? But you are NOT saying that God gives us righteousness and this is what justifies us, correct?


Correct. Imputing righteousness from God instantaneously yields the fruit of imparted righteousness... not the other way around.


I believe Wesley said that in thinking, the order is justification, then regeneration; but that it plays out virtually simultaneously in real-time.


That is also correct. Wesley also believed that righteousness is actually imparted when righteousness is imputed. Contrary to Calvinistic/Reformed views, God doesn't keep His fingers crossed when He declares you righteous. Instead, when God declares you righteous, He actually makes you what He says you are.

R
rbanks

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Regeneration is Sanctification begun. Many times people try to separate justification, regeneration, sanctification, from the person of Christ. The scripture tells us that he is made unto us all these things. For example people have been debating for years about these things and when they take place. Apart from the living Christ we can only have dead doctrines.

God does the regeneration of our spirit when our faith has been accepted. In other words, we are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus and sanctified by the washing of regeneration by the spirit.

When our faith has been accepted by God then we are justified and have peace with God. The very moment we have the peace of Justification, we are also experiencing regeneration by the spirit which is also sanctification begun. This is the new birth that we must receive in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

They cannot be completely separated from one another they compliment each other. They also can never be separate from the person of Christ or we will only be religious, and be teaching dead doctrine.

rbanks

R
roaringlamb

Contrary to Calvinistic/Reformed views, God doesn't keep His fingers crossed when He declares you righteous.

Brother I do not wish to split hairs, but can you please tell me which Reformed folks actually say this or present this?

Reformed belief is that a saint will persevere in their faith, and grow in the likeness of Christ. God does not nervously hope that the child makes it home at all, if He did, then Paul is in error to say the following-

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I do not see any mention of a nervous God here. In fact the verbs are aorist active verbs which indicate that at one point an action was started and it has continuing effects that are being acted out now.

T
theopenlife

KingJimmy wrote,

Contrary to Calvinistic/Reformed views, God doesn't keep His fingers crossed when He declares you righteous. Instead, when God declares you righteous, He actually makes you what He says you are.

This statement is baseless and needlessly offensive. In the first place, Calvinists do not believe God "crosses His fingers" over anything; He is sovereign over all things and can bring to pass whatsoever He desires.

Secondly, the Reformed view is that the imputation of righteousness is simultaneous with the impartation of the Holy Spirit, thereby beginning true sanctification, which is improved and maintained over the rest of one's life.

It is not my intention to defend Reformed doctrine any further than it is my desire to dispel blatant misunderstandings and caricatures.

R
RobertW

Justification: The declaration by the Judge as "not guilty". Abraham was justified by faith.

I think this question is a bit tricky. We have had this discussion before and perhaps we can try to reconstruct some of the thoughts:

At what point was Abraham justified? When he left Ur of the Chaldees or at some later point? All we know for sure is that it was [i]before[/i] God gave him the covenant of circumcision. Abraham 'believed' and that belief yielded obedience.

[color=000066](Rom 4:8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

(Rom 4:9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

(Rom 4:10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? [u]Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.[/u]

(Rom 4:11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
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Notice that the 'proof' of Abraham's justification was that he received the 'sign' or the 'seal' of circumcision. Circumcision of the flesh was symbolic of circumcision of the heart. We learn this from a few passages:

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Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [/color]

Now, we know that for Abraham circumcision of the flesh came [i]after justification[/i]. Why? because he received [i]the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:[/i]

What is that [u]seal[/u] today? It seems clear that the 'seal' is the signet of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:14, 4:30). Abraham's circumcision of the heart was a type or shadow of the future receiving of the Holy Spirit. So we have to ask ourselves; what is 'imparted righteousness' biblically?

It can be none other than the receiving of the Holy Spirit; the born again experience. We are baptized into the body Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12:13). It is this baptism that allows us to leave off from the Old man and become part of the one New Man (Eph. 2:15). Circumcision of the heart takes place in that the Sin is dealt with and the mortal body is 'quickened'

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In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [/color]

Notice how this seems to be a package deal.

(Rom 8:11) But [u]if[/u] the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

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(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13) For [u]if[/u] ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but [u]if[/u] ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/color]

So we see then that the 'seal' of the [u]justification[/u] in Abraham's time was physical circumcision; but the proof or seal in our times is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that yields the fruit of the Spirit. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart and God works in the person both to [i]will[/i] and to [i]do[/i] His good pleasure. I believe this is circumcision of the heart- the fulfillment of the figure of physical circumcision.

Again, at what point was Abraham justified? he did not as much as know that there be any 'circumcision' before God revealed it in Gen. 17. (compare also Acts 19:2). So the question becomes, were the folk in Acts 19:2 'justified'? In other words, if they died before hands were laid on them would they have went to heaven?

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BeYeDoers

Robert, according to Gen/Romans, Abraham's justification took place when he believed God for the promised son (Isaac). According to James, the "proof" of Abraham's justification was when he lay Isaac on the alter. Circumcision was the outward identification that he was part of the Covenant. Circumcision was not the "proof"...for circumcision or uncircumcision is nothing. Like water baptism, it was being obedient (toward a good conscience) to a command of God to be publicly identified with the covenant. I guess the question here would be is do we see a type (or shadow) of regeneration with Abraham? Regeneration itself seems to be entirely a new covenant entity, so Abraham wasn't truly regenerate, but is there a type to look at?

R
rbanks


RobertW wrote:
So the question becomes, were the folk in Acts 19:2 'justified'? In other words, if they died before hands were laid on them would they have went to heaven?

Brother, do you believe in the separate experiences of regeneration of the spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with power?

Just wondering because regeneration is the new birth. Whereas baptism in the Holy Spirit is the enduement of power from on high.

It is clear from scripture that the disciples were regenerated when they were waiting in the upper room for the outpouring of the holy Ghost with power.

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, before we are baptized in the Holy Ghost with power from on high.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

rbanks

R
RobertW

Robert, according to Gen/Romans, Abraham's justification took place when he believed God for the promised son (Isaac). According to James, the "proof" of Abraham's justification was when he lay Isaac on the alter.

You are citing Gen. 15:6 in part; however, Hebrews 11:8-10 tells us that Abraham's response to God's call to leave Ur was also faith. In fact, his whole life was a journey of faith as he looked for a city. This is not a one-off faith event, but a lifetime walk with God. I think this is an important point to make because the old timers did not suggest that folk were 'saved' after a single act of faith. they were known as 'hopefully converted'. There is always a sense of:


[color=000066](Col 1:21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

(Col 1:22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

(Col 1:23) [u]If ye continue in the faith[/u] grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Those dreaded '[u]if's[/u]'!! The event with Isaac and the altar was another faith 'event' in a lifelong process that began in Ur and continued until death. James mentions Isaac. We could site several other faith spots perhaps. James was more trying to emphasize obedience than draw a time line of what 'point' Abraham was justified, I think.

Circumcision was the outward identification that he was part of the Covenant. Circumcision was not the "proof"...for circumcision or uncircumcision is nothing. Like water baptism, it was being obedient (toward a good conscience) to a command of God to be publicly identified with the covenant.

Water baptism don't really have the same effect as Spirit Baptism. Follow me for a minute:

[color=000066](Rom 4:11) And he received the sign of circumcision, [u]a seal[/u] of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:[/color]

Circumcision made Abraham a 'marked man'. but his progeny did not always walk in the steps of the faith of Abraham so their circumcision was made 'uncircumcision'. The physical act was meaningless without faith, but for Abraham it was given as God's response to Abraham's ongoing right response to God (faith). Notice that the 'proof' of Abraham's justification was that he received the 'sign' or the 'seal' of circumcision; this is understood by the 'and' in the text; [i]And he received the sign of circumcision...[/i]

Circumcision was the 'earnest of his inheritance' as it were (See Ephesians 1). This was a picture of the future coming of the Spirit and circumcision of the heart (see previous post).

I guess the question here would be is do we see a type (or shadow) of regeneration with Abraham?

Yes. As I mentioned above. Regeneration is our being baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. I know I am making a very uncomfortable connection, but I think it is clear that when a person responds rightly to God in Abrahamic type faith, they are 'circumcised in heart by the Holy Spirit' as a fulfillment of the type and shadow of physical circumcision.

but is there a type to look at?

Yes. ;-)

R
RobertW

Brother, do you believe in the separate experiences of regeneration of the spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with power?

Yes, but sorting it all out is very challenging. ;-)

It is clear from scripture that the disciples were regenerated when they were waiting in the upper room for the outpouring of the holy Ghost with power.

I know this is a classical Pentecostal view, but can it be sustained biblically?

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(John 16:7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

(Joh 16:8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
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The ingredients we needed for genuine repentance came [i]after[/i] Christ ascended. Pentecost signaled the Spirit filled life. Also, a look at the work of the cross, as appropriated by the Holy Spirit was impossible to implement before they were actually accomplished (death to Sin, death to the Law, etc.).

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, before we are baptized in the Holy Ghost with power from on high.

I'm not disagreeing here, I just do not believe this was possible before Pentecost.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I think this was symbolic. They received the Holy ghost in Acts 2 as Peter testified to. John 20:22 helps us out of some difficulties if we take it literally, but it creates other problems.

K
KingJimmy


This statement is baseless and needlessly offensive.


No offense was intended by my illustration.


Secondly, the Reformed view is that the imputation of righteousness is simultaneous with the impartation of the Holy Spirit, thereby beginning true sanctification, which is improved and maintained over the rest of one's life.

It is not my intention to defend Reformed doctrine any further than it is my desire to dispel blatant misunderstandings and caricatures.


I'm not seeking to make inappropriate caricatures of reformed doctrine. I have the utmost respect for my reformed brethren.

I'm simply saying that in the Calvinistic/Reformed point of view, so far as I have understood it, there is no room for the notion of imparted righteousness that accompanies imputed righteousness. Indeed, the idea of imparted righteousness, where the believer is actually made righteous as a result of imputed righteousness, is entirely foreign to Calvinistic/Reformed thought.

The idea of imparted righteousness that accompanies imputed righteousness, is a Wesylean notion. Calvin only understood righteousness in the forensic, legal, and positional sense of the term. Wesley understood it in the legal sense as well, however, he also understood it as effecting man's actual constitution and nature. So far as I understand Calvin, he didn't see justification as effecting man's constitution and nature. It was purely a legal transaction in his eyes. Thus, even after a man was justified, he might sin a thousand times a day in his heart. Thus, notions of eternal security arose. For he saw no change in the actual constitution of man as a result of justification. Thus, while man continues to sin, God continues to justify. Whereas Wesleyan notions of justification see justification as resulting in a change of nature, and therefore, if a man continues to sin a thousand times a day in his heart, it is evidence that he is not presently saved. Thus, eternal security is conditional in nature.

Thus, I believe the illustration I offered, where Calvin's notion of justification involves God crossing His fingers behind his back when declaring man righteous, isn't that off. For the crossing of the fingers behind one's back signifies that what one is saying is not true. Calvin's notion of justification is purely legal, not actual, and in my opinion, is the same thing as offered in the illustration. Indeed, I have known some Calvinist who while they did not overly appreciate such an illustration as representing their views, ultimately thought it to not be inaccurate in regard to what they teach.

S
sermonindex

I'm simply saying that in the Calvinistic/Reformed point of view, so far as I have understood it, there is no room for the notion of imparted righteousness that accompanies imputed righteousness.

There is very much a place for imparted righteousness within reformed theology; it is the life-long process called sanctification.

Indeed, the idea of imparted righteousness, where the believer is actually made righteous as a result of imputed righteousness, is entirely foreign to Calvinistic/Reformed though

No, not really. We are made righteous ONLY as a result of being declared righteous, but that making righteous is a process that will go on until we see Jesus as He is. All those who are justified are BEING sanctified.

The idea of imparted righteousness that accompanies imputed righteousness, is a Wesleyan notion

To define justification as imparted righteousness is not only Wesleyan it is also very much Roman Catholic (which is why they have he categories of venial and mortal sins)

Calvin only understood righteousness in the forensic, legal, and positional sense of the term

See, we have to get our categories and terms right. What you have said is not correct. Reformed theology states that JUSTIFICATION is forensic and legal. It is the imputed righteousness of Christ put to a believers account. (Sort of like what Romans 4 says about Abraham...but I digress) Again Reformed Theology also teaches IMPARTED righteousness, but it is categorized as sanctification. The process of being conformed into the image of Christ.

Real honest to goodness righteousness...you know loving your wives, loving your neighbor, caring for the poor. Yes, reformed Christians actually believe in loving God and loving people...which is of course the whole law.

Whereas Wesleyan notions of justification see justification as resulting in a change of nature, and therefore, if a man continues to sin a thousand times a day in his heart, it is evidence that he is not presently saved.

Have you stopped sinning?

Thus, I believe the illustration I offered, where Calvin's notion of justification involves God crossing His fingers behind his back when declaring man righteous, isn't that off.

I can assure you that any well studied reformed believer would not agree with your illustration of God crossing his fingers behind His back. For we would declare with Paul that:

whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

R
RobertW

Have you stopped sinning?

I think it is important to recognize that we need constant fillings of the Holy Spirit in order to walk in real victory over sin. It seems as though sometimes we get the idea that spiritual growth is some mysterious thing that we really have no control over. That is not true. We are as Christlike as we are full of the Holy Spirit. when we grieve the Holy Spirit by resisting Him and we do not cultivate good desires that He works in us; then we start slipping.

Christ in you the hope of glory, etc. Our attitudes, things we might entertain, all have an effect on how 'welcome' we make the Holy Spirit in us. He is the 'Holy Guest' and when He cannot rest in us (Isaiah 66:1, 2) then we have no means of producing the fruit of the Spirit. We need to make sure we make Him welcome, because it is God that works in us to will and do His good pleasure. Having 'begun' in the Spirit, we must also 'walk' in the Spirit. That is the key to victory over sin.

K
KingJimmy


There is very much a place for imparted righteousness within reformed theology; it is the life-long process called sanctification.


Thanks for the correcting my misunderstanding of Reformed theology/categories.


To define justification as imparted righteousness is not only Wesleyan it is also very much Roman Catholic (which is why they have he categories of venial and mortal sins)


Wesley, so far as I have studied, was the first to bring imputed and imparted righteousness together in the justification experience. It's a double-edged sword in Wesleyan thought. His view is different than Rome's view though. Rome understands justification/righteousness to be something that is earned. They shun the entire notion of a passive righteousness that is received entirely on the basis of faith. They are looking for a day in which they will be justified on the basis of their being just. And whatever they lack in being just, they seek to receive from the treasury of the saints, who have some extra righteousness to spread around and make up for one's own deficits.


Again Reformed Theology also teaches IMPARTED righteousness, but it is categorized as sanctification. The process of being conformed into the image of Christ.


Correct. They view sanctification as the means by which one has righteousness imparted to them. They do look at justification however, purely in a legal/forensic sense. Wesleyan thought looks at it in the legal sense, as well as the imparted sense.


Have you stopped sinning?


I sinned yesterday. But I'm not presently living in any unrepentant sin, because I repented of it. I'm not sinning right now, however.

K
KingJimmy


Having 'begun' in the Spirit, we must also 'walk' in the Spirit.


Amen!

K
KingJimmy


...the life-long process called sanctification.


It should be noted, however, that contrary to popular theology in both Reformed and Wesleyan camps, that nowhere in Scripture is it ever taught that sanctification is a progressive process. Nor is it ever taught that sanctification is the process whereby we sin less and less.

Rather, sanctification is always seen as a definite act that happens in a single moment. In regard to our salvation, we were sanctified in full the moment we believed. That is, we were set apart, and transfered from death to life. All our sins were forgiven, and the power of sin was given a fatal blow. We were cleansed from all unrighteousness. Just as God "sanctified" the Sabbath day instantly at the end of the creation, so we were "sanctified" when we believed.

What remains then, and the only thing we see of "progression" in the Christian life, is not sanctification, but glorification. Glorification is the process whereby we bear more and more fruit for Christ. You see, we don't grow more like Christ by sinning less and less. Rather, we grow more like Christ in the same manner in which He grew in wisdom and stature in His earthly days. We, like Him, go on from glory to glory. We bear more and more fruit.

Sinning less and less is not the object of the Christian life. We should not sin at all. Though if we do, we have and Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous. Rather, we seek to apply the work that Christ completed on the cross and the moment we believed. We seek to walk out in the thing God has created us as. For I can never be holier than I am the moment I believed. I can never be cleaner than when Jesus cleansed me of my sins. The blood didn't miss anything when it took away my sins. It covered and cleansed all of me.

R
roaringlamb

What remains then, and the only thing we see of "progression" in the Christian life, is not sanctification, but glorification.

Brother can you please show this from Scripture?

Faith is what justifies us, and the faith that justifies also sanctifies. Paul urges us to work out our "salvation", but makes no mention of glorification, that happens when we see Him, as it is written, "when we see Him, we shall be like Him." Not before then, but at that moment.

I take great exception to your statement that you "sinned yesterday, but are not in any unrepentant sin now"

In all love and grace, I say this; You do not know yourself as you ought to. If you were honest, you would grovel at the feet of Christ every moment confessing how unworthy you are, and how great His salvation and grace are.

Consider the man who Jesus said went to his home justified, it was not the one who boasted in his righteous deeds, but instead it was the one who beat on his chest and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner!"

The point of 1 John is to confront the Gnostics, who were saying that since the body and the soul are separate, you can sin as much as you wish with the body without it affecting the soul. Try reading the first Epistle with this in mind, and all of the so called "hard" texts make perfect sense.

For example when John talks about those who practice lawlessness, he is referring to those who I mentioned above. Because they did not believe that Christ came in the flesh, due to their view of flesh being evil, they settled on a practice of sinning outwardly thinking that it had no effect on their soul.

Consider as well that the Corinthian church was perhaps one of the most immoral groups in all of Asia. But in the beginning of the letter Paul calls them "saints", and goes on and on about their being saved, which is perfectly summed up in 1 Corinthians 1:30-

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"

Christ is it, I know to many that this is not enough, and they will have to take that up with God, but Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. No more moral deeds and boasting in how we commit less sin than another, that is not love.

Perhaps it would help to start from a right perspective of ourselves, and to do so, I use the words of Luther which he spoke shortly before he breathed his last-

"Wir sind alle Bettler"
(We are all beggars)

R
RobertW

Hi Jimmy,

Rather, we seek to apply the work that Christ completed on the cross and the moment we believed. We seek to walk out in the thing God has created us as. For I can never be holier than I am the moment I believed.

I have typically understood the Holy Spirit as the one to appropriate the work of Christ on the cross to us through Baptism [i]into[/i] Christ. I view this as God initiating contact with man and man responding to God and then God responding again (as Philologos would say).

I think of a Tennis Court (God forbid) where God serves and we respond. When we respond rightly God puts the ball back in our court for another response. This back and forth action of God initiating and we responding is the 'walk' I believe we are to walk in the Spirit. I think this is what Abraham experienced as well as the others.

I see the Glorification process as a result of God drawing near to us in His unique presence and the evidence of God having been near is clear for all to see view the fruit of our behavior and disposition. Steven was a living example of His sermon. He quoted Isaiah 66:1, 2 and then demonstrated it. We know God was near to him as he maintained a Christlike, forgiving, patient attitude to the very end. He never got in a frame that would grieve the Spirit and God rested in Him.


B
BeYeDoers

You are citing Gen. 15:6 in part; however, Hebrews 11:8-10 tells us that Abraham's response to God's call to leave Ur was also faith. In fact, his whole life was a journey of faith
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yes, as it should be. But Romans says that the "justifying" faith took place in Gen. 15. That doesn't mean there is no more faith to worry about.

I think this is an important point to make because the old timers did not suggest that folk were 'saved' after a single act of faith.

Well, that is why I never used the word "saved" but "justified". They are very different things. Justification is only one part of salvation, not the whole(Of course I think you agree on this, just clarifying where I stand, lest there be confusion). Take Moses for example. In one sense, God "saved" him when he was put in the basket after birth. But that wasn't it. He was also "saved" when he put the blood on the door. But that wasn't it. He was also saved when the cloud went behind him and concealed from the Egyptians...and when he crossed the Red Sea...and when he looked upon the serpent...

When was Moses saved? Well, that is a very complicated question.

Water baptism don't really have the same effect as Spirit Baptism.

Didn't say it did.

Notice that the 'proof' of Abraham's justification was that he received the 'sign' or the 'seal' of circumcision; this is understood by the 'and' in the text; And he received the sign of circumcision...

I still wouldn't equate "proof" with "seal" or "sign". James tells us that the "proof" of Abraham's faith was offering Isaac. Getting circumcised wasn't proof. It was a public declaration that you considered yourself as part of the Covenant. Offering Isaac wasn't Abraham saying, "I need to declare my standing" but an outpouring of his standing. A subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.


I think it is clear that when a person responds rightly to God in Abrahamic type faith, they are 'circumcised in heart by the Holy Spirit' as a fulfillment of the type and shadow of physical circumcision.

So like Wesley, you agree that justification precedes regeneration in thought but in practicality is simultaneous? And you are equating circumcision of the heart as identical to receiving a new one and becoming a new creation?

Everyone please note: I am not being rhetorical or suggesting conclusions in my questions. I have no ulterior motive here. I am currently reading "Justification and Regeneration" by Charles Leiter, as well as perusing old threads on the topic, and studying such things diligently. My questions are for edification.

B
BeYeDoers

Mahoney and roaringlamb, how do you separate something "progressively"? Philologos demonstrates this in his "Having Begun in the Spirit" series. You cannot separate a piece of cake from the whole cake by a process. You either cut it and take it away, or you leave it there. If you only partially cut it it's not separate, and therefore not sanctified.

R
RobertW

So like Wesley, you agree that justification precedes regeneration in thought but in practicality is simultaneous? And you are equating circumcision of the heart as identical to receiving a new one and becoming a new creation?

Circumcision of the heart is also when we are 'severed' from our Old Man through the death of Christ as we are Baptized by the Spirit into the one New Man. This is the Holy Spirit severing our spirit from the spirit of disobedience (Eph. 2). This is the law of sin and death being replaced by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This is our having formerly been "In Adam", but now we are "In Christ."

I think this is best illustrated by the whole 'grafting in' of the wild branch into the True Vine. There had to be a 'severing' from the original wild tree before that severed branch could be a 'grafting in' to the True Vine.


yes, as it should be. But Romans says that the "justifying" faith took place in Gen. 15. That doesn't mean there is no more faith to worry about.

I'm not sure I see things happening like that. I am trying to get away from thinking in terms of markers and results, etc. I think what we need to focus on is "these all having died in faith..." They 'kept the faith' as Paul writes of himself in II Timothy.

I think we would also do well to return to the old style way of describing converts as 'hopefully converted'; but we are so caught in modern thinking that I don't know if we can get back. I think only God knows 'when' a person has justifying faith; but I still contend that the seal of the Holy Spirit is the 'earnest' of our inheritance and has it's parallel in circumcision.

S
sermonindex

My least technical reply ever.....one is either saved or is not. You either have a new heart or you do not. I think the complicating factor for many is that many are called but few are chosen. Many seeds fall on different types of soil, but lack of depth and seed that fall upon the stone and seed that are choked out by the cares of this life often take a lifetime to identify themselves. Wheat and tares look exactly alike until the harvest draws near, ask any farmer. In the parrable of the 10 virgins, they are all virgins, they all have lamps, it is only until the oil is required that we know who is saved and who is not. It is only until the river rises and the storm rages that we know whose house stands upon the foundation. The notion that one is justified but not regenerated flys in the face of being new creatures in Christ. Perhaps we should chaneg the Scripture to "behold, all things are just as they were?" This would probably lead to anothe debate, what is a "nominal," Christian. It is certainly not the modern day version, thats for sure..........Frank

R
rbanks


RobertW wrote:

I think this was symbolic. They received the Holy ghost in Acts 2 as Peter testified to. John 20:22 helps us out of some difficulties if we take it literally, but it creates other problems.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

When you say you take John 20:22 to be symbolic, which part are you talking about. It seems to me that Jesus breathed on them was what He did, and receive ye the Holy Ghost was just that – what they received.

Looking at - [Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,.]

It seems clear of what happened to them after he breathes the Holy Spirit on them and they received. He opened their understanding so that they might understand the scripture. This doesn’t seem symbolic to me, it sounds more like regeneration. If it isn’t regeneration, they stilled received an impartation and this was after his crucifixion and resurrection. Also in one of the gospels, I believe John, he tells Mary after He had risen, not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended. We also Know He let Thomas and others touch Him before Pentecost.

Maybe you can add some light from scripture where you think I’m missing it!

Thanks -rbanks


B
BeYeDoers

I think only God knows 'when' a person has justifying faith

I absolutely can't disagree here. Nothing in scripture leads us to believe that Abraham knew the moment he was justified. But [i]we[/i] know when he was, because God tells us when he was. I suppose that Abraham knew it [i]had[/i] happened when the angel appeared at Isaac's altar before Abraham drove the knife down, but he couldn't have told you [i]when[/i] it happened.

B
BeYeDoers

appolus, what do you mean by "saved"? There is so much more to it than a new heart. Evangelicalism has become very sloppy in its use of scripture and scripture terms. Salvation or the state of being saved is not used in scripture as a single event in time in the life of an individual where beforehand he was not and now he is.

We need to be careful to handle God's word carefully and use the words he uses properly without all the mush and muck that exists today.

(this is not an accusation toward you...I myself am in the process of reworking my own understanding of life in Christ that years in soft churches and parachurch organizations have screwed up)

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RobertW

This doesn’t seem symbolic to me, it sounds more like regeneration. If it isn’t regeneration, they stilled received an impartation and this was after his crucifixion and resurrection. Also in one of the gospels, I believe John, he tells Mary after He had risen, not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended. We also Know He let Thomas and others touch Him before Pentecost.

I think that we get into disagreement because we try to understand what God wants to do in a persons life and we think somehow we need to be able to explain how it plays out in nice little boxes. ;-)

I have found that these things are way too complex for us to try to develop theological formulas or time lines or any of that. I just don't have the polemic appetite I once had. I am tired of trying to make the reformers jibe or all that. A friend told me years ago that these things are 'dead in the water" to try to reach the lost. I think he may be right.

These days I refuse to dwell in the theoretical and try to stay in reality. I try to focus on teaching folk that God desires to bring many 'sons' unto glory and as many as receive Christ to them He gave the authority to become the sons of God. I focus on their need to cease resisting the Holy Ghost and to submit to Him now. To clear up the controversies they have with God, etc.

At the end of the day it just don't matter how it all works out. We all want to have our theories together, but the important thing is that folk live lives FULL of the Holy Ghost and make themselves a place of His rest. To rid their lives of things that grieve Him and welcome Him to stay in his fullness.

Some other thoughts...

It's easy to become a heretic trying to explain things. I think a great many of men of God should have left the explaining alone and focused on the task at hand. If a person is backslid they need to repent. What use is it to hold on to a vain hope in one hand and Sin in the other?

Personally I do not fit in any theological box, but I am closest to Classical Pentecostalism. I just long to understand the scriptures. Truly, I don't think we even know all the issues yet, much less try to form theologies. This is why we search in vain to find one that stands the test. If someone had it all figured out we would all speak the same things. ;-) :-)

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RobertW

But we know when he was, because God tells us when he was. I suppose that Abraham knew it had happened when the angel appeared at Isaac's altar before Abraham drove the knife down, but he couldn't have told you when it happened.

True. But what [i]can[/i] be answered is, "Have you received since you believed?" or "have you begun in the Spirit?" We can know that we have the Holy Spirit as our spirit witnesses together (the witness of the Spirit). This is why I think the question must be, do we have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside and are we yielding the fruit of the Spirit? That is how we know and are known that we are children of God. Am I walking before God with a clear conscience? Do I have a controversy with God right now?

To me, that is all that really matters. Everything else is just technical jargon. :-)

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RobertW

We need to be careful to handle God's word carefully and use the words he uses properly without all the mush and muck that exists today.

I think we need to be pedantic on the one hand and also realize that folk pour their own meanings into words. Gentle discovery with swords in sheaths is a good way to proceed. ;-)

R
rbanks


RobertW wrote:

Some other thoughts...

It's easy to become a heretic trying to explain things. I think a great many of men of God should have left the explaining alone and focused on the task at hand. If a person is backslid they need to repent. What use is it to hold on to a vain hope in one hand and Sin in the other?

Personally I do not fit in any theological box, but I am closest to Classical Pentecostalism. I just long to understand the scriptures. Truly, I don't think we even know all the issues yet, much less try to form theologies. This is why we search in vain to find one that stands the test. If someone had it all figured out we would all speak the same things. ;-) :-)

I'm in agreement with you concerning the right kind of spirit. The bible is the book for me!

RobertW -Your posts have been a blessing to me. I was definitely not try to be offensive.

Thanks -rbanks

R
rbanks

Only when the blood is applied are we truly justified.

Our faith must be approved and received by God, then and only then, does he justify us by the blood of Jesus.

Then regeneration follows by the Holy Spirit which results in sanctification begun. The Holy Spirit will never go where the blood of Christ has not been applied.

rbanks

T
tjservant


RobertW wrote:

I think that we get into disagreement because we try to understand what God wants to do in a persons life and we think somehow we need to be able to explain how it plays out in nice little boxes. ;-)

I have found that these things are way too complex for us to try to develop theological formulas or time lines or any of that. I just don't have the polemic appetite I once had. I am tired of trying to make the reformers jibe or all that. A friend told me years ago that these things are 'dead in the water" to try to reach the lost. I think he may be right.

These days I refuse to dwell in the theoretical and try to stay in reality. I try to focus on teaching folk that God desires to bring many 'sons' unto glory and as many as receive Christ to them He gave the authority to become the sons of God. I focus on their need to cease resisting the Holy Ghost and to submit to Him now. To clear up the controversies they have with God, etc.

At the end of the day it just don't matter how it all works out. We all want to have our theories together, but the important thing is that folk live lives FULL of the Holy Ghost and make themselves a place of His rest. To rid their lives of things that grieve Him and welcome Him to stay in his fullness.

Some other thoughts...

It's easy to become a heretic trying to explain things. I think a great many of men of God should have left the explaining alone and focused on the task at hand. If a person is backslid they need to repent. What use is it to hold on to a vain hope in one hand and Sin in the other?

Personally I do not fit in any theological box, but I am closest to Classical Pentecostalism. I just long to understand the scriptures. Truly, I don't think we even know all the issues yet, much less try to form theologies. This is why we search in vain to find one that stands the test. If someone had it all figured out we would all speak the same things. ;-) :-)

Wonderful post brother. While I am still in a stage of exploring and attempting to understand differing theologies…I believe there are times and situations in which we should simply look up to God and say…thou knowest.

Thanks for your honest sharing brother.

P
PaulWest

I believe there are times and situations in which we should simply look up to God and say…thou knowest.

Dear brother, believe me, the more mature and wise you grow in Christ, the more you'll find yourself incapable of saying anything but "thou knowest" to Him in many, many situations. My strength in Him is measured only by my corresponding weakness relating to self, including but not confined to my own theological and doctrinal leanings. The life-crowning confession of John Newton becomes more and more relevant as I continue to walk with my Lord: "The only thing I know is that I am a great sinner and that Christ is a great Savior."

When it's all said and done, this is all I can ever confess at the end of each day, regardless of how well the day went.

R
RobertW

RobertW -Your posts have been a blessing to me. I was definitely not try to be offensive.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not offended. :-)

R
rbanks


PaulWest wrote:
I believe there are times and situations in which we should simply look up to God and say…thou knowest.

Dear brother, believe me, the more mature and wise you grow in Christ, the more you'll find yourself incapable of saying anything but "thou knowest" to Him in many, many situations. My strength in Him is measured only by my corresponding weakness relating to self, including but not confined to my own theological and doctrinal leanings. The life-crowning confession of John Newton becomes more and more relevant as I continue to walk with my Lord: "The only thing I know is that I am a great sinner and that Christ is a great Savior."

When it's all said and done, this is all I can ever confess at the end of each day, regardless of how well the day went.

Amen!!! Brother PaulWest & TJServant

Only by the grace and mercy of God. Hell is what we all deserve.

Oh! Were it not For the Love of God in Christ Jesus.

His shed blood has paid the ransom for us all, and all to Him we owe!!!

Oh Lord God have mercy on us all!!!

rbanks

B
BeYeDoers

Robert (and others),

I guess after reading through the discussion between you and Ron B. a few years back, and studying more of Ron's stuff on baptism and regeneration, I find it having much weight. But what it leaves open is that the experiences in Acts of "the baptism in Holy Spirit" all happened (with the possible exception of Cornelius and his house) to people where justifying faith had apparently already been enacted at a definite time preceding. So if "the baptism" equals regeneration, then why the time gap?

I also wonder if this discussion played out in Leonard Ravenhill's mind...he often mentioned that he believed that not all the saved will be part of the bride. Some will get in, but barely...and those will not be part of the wedding feast.

Please don't misunderstand me as being evangelically formulaic. I'm just trying to make sense of my own experiences and leanings in light of scripture.

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RobertW

So if "the baptism" equals regeneration, then why the time gap?

I guess I would have to define what I understand as regeneration. Regeneration is when the Holy Spirit comes to take up residence in a person appropriating to them the finished work of the cross such as death to Sin, death to the Law, etc. and reuniting with our human spirit.

In a figure the flame of the spirit of disobedience that filled our hearts and minds with darkness is extinguished and the FIRE of the Holy Spirit is lighted on the lamp stand. We are severed from Adam and baptized into Jesus Christ.

At this point I think that the issue becomes 'fillings'. How 'full' of the Holy Ghost is a person? Certainly there are levels of fullness or the concept of 'full' is nonsense. The implication is that a person may not be full or 'filled'. I think this is a surrender issue and a willingness to cease resisting the Holy Spirit in various areas of our lives. Typically, I think, the Holy Spirit take up the role of Jesus Christ to establish His absolute Lordship in our lives. The more we submit the more FULL we become. This is what Steven referred to in quoting Isaiah 66:1,2.

If a person will set out to allow God to make them a place of HIS rest, they will know fullness; but one cannot get there being stiffnecked and always resisting the Spirit. Can a person resist and be filled at the same time? We need broken + contrite spirits + trembling at His word (swift obedience).

So contrary to many Pentecostal positions I am not looking for tongues [i]necessarily[/i], I have seen and heard a many of 'tongues'. I am longing for absolute fullness of the Spirit that will manifest in me as it did in Steven so that while I am being stoned to death I can beg mercy on my tormentors. THAT is fullness!

C
Christinyou

Robert,

I have a few questions. If we must be born again of spirit and of the water of life, which Spirit are we born again of? I know who is the Water of Life.

We must have the Spirit of Christ in us or we are none of His.

He is our Life.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So do we separate the tripartite man as the two-edged sword does, separating the soul and spirit and even to the dividing asunder the bones and the marrow. Or do we make Christ and the Holy Spirit the Same, whom most don't separate the soul and spirit Making the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit who works in the soul all one working, making the understanding of our born again manifestation clouded and not knowing what has truly occurred.

Please help with your input.

When do we receive the Spirit of Christ by the born again promise? When do we receive the Spirit of God and His Holy Spirit?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This "word" is the same "word" by which we are born again from, the Logos, which is the same "word" John uses in John 1 that tells us who the Word is. The Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us.

My Question then is if we are born again of Incorruptable Seed which is the Word of God and we also receive that Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher and the Spirit of God the Father also dwell with us, or makes "our abode with him", is it for us to know and make decisions on Who and when and in what order new birth comes?

I do know that my spirit is now the Spirit of Christ and I do know that the Holy Spirit is the Teacher of My soul and I do know I will receive a new body on resurrection day when Jesus comes for His Bride the Church. My life is now the Life of Christ in Spirit, My life is learning in my soul-mind by the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the life and mind of Christ, which is being renewed daily, the Spirit is already perfect and the only way I am perfect before God the Father by the Christ in me.

Where do we learn? Do we learn in spirit, I think we learn from our spirit, which was the spirit of Satan our old father because our father Adam believed in him and what he said, even though it was a lie and deception was upon Eve, Adam is the One in who we received our sinful nature or spirit if you will.

But Now it is in our Spirit where we are born again and now have the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus making us new creature, a new creation race of God's people which are of the Seed of the Father and by that Incorruptable Seed which is Christ in us.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"His working"????????????

Truly a mystery, hoping praying and asking, it will be completely revealed to us soon. I will in much needed help seek your input and the Holy Spirit give us understanding.

In Christ: Phillip

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RobertW

When do we receive the Spirit of Christ by the born again promise? When do we receive the Spirit of God and His Holy Spirit?

This is a distinction that Classical Pentecostal's make to say that at rebirth we receive the Spirit of Christ, but at the Baptism in the Holy Ghost we receive the Holy Ghost. I do not make this distinction any longer because I am trying to understand biblically what is happening. I'm not so worried about getting all the little boxes right so I try not to take people down that road. Our experience with God is a living experience and it is hard to systemize it.

I believe we are baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit when we leave off resisting the Holy Ghost and believe the word of God. God initiates this process by Holy Ghost conviction, illumination, revelation, etc. We must respond and our response is to submit. God will appropriate to us through this Baptism into Christ all that Christ accomplished on out behalf on the cross. This is what breaks the power of Sin in our life and gives us a new nature.

My Question then is if we are born again of Incorruptable Seed which is the Word of God and we also receive that Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher and the Spirit of God the Father also dwell with us, or makes "our abode with him", is it for us to know and make decisions on Who and when and in what order new birth comes?

We should be able to know whether the Holy Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the sons of God. We have a human spirit that was severed from the Holy Spirit at the fall and the spirit of disobedience was 'joined' to our spirit; man became sinful and by 'nature' a child of wrath because of this (Eph. 2). We should know that our nature has changed and that we no longer have the nature we once did. One should not have to 'be told' they are changed; they should herald the fact "I have been changed!"

I do know that my spirit is now the Spirit of Christ...

I would say that my human spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit as it was before the fall. We are one spirit with Christ, but that is a plural unity.

R
RobertW

But Now it is in our Spirit where we are born again and now have the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus making us new creature, a new creation race of God's people which are of the Seed of the Father and by that Incorruptable Seed which is Christ in us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Eph 2:5)

I see our having been baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit as the fulfillment of this promise in Eph. 2:5. This corrects our spiritual problem as we are no longer 'in' Adam, but are 'in 'Christ. Thise that are 'in' Adam are born so because their human spirit is joined to the spirit of disobedience; it is what 'now worketh in them' to do the lusts of their father the devil. For us, it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure (Phil. 2).

We then have to deal with our mortal bodies and the good natural desires that make us very vulnerable to sinning in a fallen world if we are not careful. We have natural needs and desires that are God given; but temptation is an appeal to satisfy a good appetite or desire in a BAD (sinful) way. We must walk in God's order. So how to we deal with this mortal body?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also [u]quicken your mortal bodies[/u] by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11)

This is how we are empowered to mortify the deeds of the Body. If we will make our lives a place of God's rest and be CAREFUL not to grieve the Holy spirit, He will make His abode in us in an ever increasing way. I see this as yielding to the Holy Spirit and inviting Him to come and dwell. i may get into trouble here, but I think the fruit of the Spirit is dependent on how FULL we allow ourselves to be with God's unique presence. When we make Him welcome He will work in us to will and DO His good pleasure, but when we take up competing pleasures that grieve him we start to struggle with things, especially things that involve our mortal bodies.

C
Christinyou

Robert wrote;

Quote:

""We have a human spirit that was severed from the Holy Spirit at the fall and the spirit of disobedience was 'joined' to our spirit; man became sinful and by 'nature' a child of wrath because of this (Eph. 2). ""

I think I understand, that is why the Holy Spirit was with us and after we receive a new nature in Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to be in us as Christ promised and deals with us in our soul-mind to give us assurance that the witness is in ourselves?

Quote:

"I would say that my human spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit as it was before the fall. We are one spirit with Christ, but that is a plural unity."

This is where my confusion comes in. If Christ is my new nature and He is Spirit and Water and His work is finished at the Cross and I am Born Again by His Spirit that is now my Spirit, where does the Holy Spirit teach me these principles? I don't need instruction in my spirit for that is Christ. I see it as where I need instruction is in my mind, which is my soul. I see the two edged sword bringing this to dividing the soul and spirit to accomplish the Work of the Cross in my Spirit, done, and the work in my mind, being done.

Thanks, the first quote of the Holy Spirit leaving our soul was very helpful.

In Christ: Phillip

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RobertW

If Christ is my new nature...

I see the aspect of Christ that we are enjoined to by the Holy Spirit in terms of nature [i]as[/i] the Phil. 2, "God worketh in you both to [u]will[/u] and to [u]do[/u] His good pleasure." I think the 'willing' and the power to 'do' is the benefit we receive from being baptized into Christ. My obligation now is to sit at Christ's feet and learn of Him that I might know Him and His will. there is still a process of learning; it is the will and power to walk in what we have learned that is our new nature. This is why we read things like... you have not so learned Christ... etc., There are things He is teaching us that will be in agreement with the word of God. The Spirit and the word agree, etc.

R
rbanks


RobertW wrote:
from Christinyou -When do we receive the Spirit of Christ by the born again promise? When do we receive the Spirit of God and His Holy Spirit?

From RobertW
This is a distinction that Classical Pentecostal's make to say that at rebirth we receive the Spirit of Christ, but at the Baptism in the Holy Ghost we receive the Holy Ghost. .

Hi RobertW & Christinyou

I have come across a few who did this kind of separation of the Holy Spirit, which is incorrect.

One could say that I’m classical Pentecostal. I have listened to a real classical Pentecostal named B.H. Clendennon and I never heard him explain it, the way it has been stated classical’s believe.

The bible says there is only one spirit. The spirit of Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit. When one receives Christ he receives the Holy Spirit in regeneration, which is being born again. This is also being baptized into Christ. The bible also says to be filled with the Holy Spirit from our regeneration experience.

The book of acts explains that after they were baptized into Christ the same Holy Spirit they tasted in regeneration could now come upon them in what the bible means by baptized (immersion) in the Holy Ghost. Search the scriptures, the Holy Spirit did not fall on them until they were in Christ. Jesus said the world could not receive the Holy Ghost immersing them with power. A person must repent and be baptized into Christ Jesus first, before they can receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit overflowing.

There are not 2 different spirits. It is the same Spirit. Jesus even said -my words are spirit and they are life. You can’t even separate the words of Christ from the spirit of Christ. When one receives the implanted word (seed of Christ) he has also received the Spirit of Christ. The fullness of the Holy Spirit to overflowing (baptism in the Holy Ghost) which happens to a person totally surrendered to God and is instantaneous. We see this in the book of acts. The filling of the Holy Spirit is also to be continually.

Again one must be born of the spirit cleansed by the blood and totally surrendered to the will of God before Jesus will totally immerse them in the Holy Spirit with power. Even after one is baptized in the Holy Spirit he must maintain a life of prayer, fasting, and obedience to God in order to stay full. I know there have been many saved and filled with the Spirit doing a work for God but have yet to receive this instantaneous infilling of the Holy Spirit where God takes complete control and can speak through you with languages never learned, prophesy, dreams, and visions. He wants full control of his purchased vessels. I know there have been many who have learned how to say a few words and think they have it. But it is Him having us and us only speaking where the Spirit is in control. We must take up our cross and deny ourselves daily and be filled with the Holy Spirit continually. Jesus said as my Father has sent me even so I send you. The bible says when he came up out of the baptismal waters, He was filled with the Holy Spirit and then lead by the Spirit. I hope nobody thinks that the Holy Spirit was not in Jesus before the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus and He being filled by the Holy Spirit.

It is the experience of the Holy Spirit that needs to be distinguished not to separate the Holy Spirit from the Holy Spirit.

C
Christinyou

The Spirit of God is The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, "ONE SPIRIT".

They do three different things, it was not the Spirit of the Father that hang on the Cross, only in that Jesus Said "He and the Father are One".

Jesus Christ was the only One on the Cross. It is His Spirit that is born again in us, which is the Spirit of the Father and the Holy Spirit also but The Spirit of Christ is the One that gives us new birth. It was not the blood of the Holy Spirit that was shed on the Cross or the Blood of the Father, only that the blood from the Father makes the bloodline in which Christ is Born.

Then Christ tells us He will send the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, to do what. "Teach you all things". John 14,15,16,17.

Lamentations 1:16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

The Comforter for my soul is far from me, if I grieve the Holy Spirit and do my own thing.

The Comforter works in our soul, and is the distributor as He pleases of the gifts of the Spirit of which Christ is the Gifted One who is our new birthing in Spirit, The Holy Spirit works in our soul, not in our spirit. Where do we learn? Not in Spirit, but in soul in which our minds dwell and learn to the renewing of our minds to the mind of Christ. Who does the renewing? The Mind of Christ was received at our rebirth, and we are to renew our minds to the Mind of Christ which we already received at rebirth. The Holy Spirit Comforter, Teacher is now the One whom we deal with in renewing our minds-souls, to the Mind of Christ.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Comforter:
Strong's Greek Dictionary
3875. parakletos
Search for G3875 in KJVSL
paraklhtoV parakletos par-ak'-lay-tos
an intercessor, consoler:--advocate, comforter.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not the Same unless you mean The One Spirit of the Trinity, One God in three Persons.

Lest why is He Sent?

Lu 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Sealed after believing.

This is not the Holy Spirit. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit seals us into Jesus Christ who's life is now our life. The Holy Spirit is now with us forever also and will continue to teach us this Christ and the Father throughout all eternity.

If I am proclaiming a lie please help me repent and grieve not the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

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RobertW

Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit seals us into Jesus Christ who's life is now our life. The Holy Spirit is now with us forever also and will continue to teach us this Christ and the Father throughout all eternity.

The subject of baptism is beyond the scope of what I could possibly cover here. There are some old threads on the subject if they are still archived.

Again, I think we need to focus on the fact that God desires to make us a dwelling place for Himself. I say lovingly that getting it all worked out in our minds does not bring us any closer to fullness and the danger is that we would think that because we are satisfied with our 'understanding' then we [i]have[/i] the 'experience'. This is a very deceptive trap.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after
me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with
the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ
was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk
in newness of life.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Eph 4:4 There is [u]one[/u] body, and [u]one[/u] Spirit, even as ye are called in [u]one[/u] hope of
your calling;
Eph 4:5 [u]One[/u] Lord, [u]one[/u] faith, [u]one baptism[/u],
Eph 4:6 [u]One[/u] God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

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RobertW

Even after one is baptized in the Holy Spirit he must maintain a life of prayer, fasting, and obedience to God in order to stay full.

The longer I live the more I am convinced that fullness is dependent on how welcome we make God in our lives; being careful to overthrow all the idols that compete with God in our heart. This was Israels orders when they came into the land and they did NOT obey God. They allowed the things that provoke Him to jealousy to remain and He lifted off of them and would not drive their enemies out from before them (Judges 2, James 4:7).

The first of the 10 commandments is that we must not have any other gods before God. The Dagon's must fall on their faces before God in our lives. This is important, I think. When we give so much of our hearts to other things we leave our First Love. I wonder how seriously we take the fact that God is a jealous God? Who among us likes to be provoked to jealousy? Isaiah 66 and Acts 7 are in my mind keys to fullness.

1) Broken spirit
2) contrite spirit
3) Trembles at the word
4) Does [u]not[/u] resist the Holy Ghost (authority)

When we stop resisting and begin trembling. When we come to brokenness and contrition; we can simply ask and I believe God will fill us with His Spirit. We cannot resist and receive at the same time. Some think the key is longevity in praying, and perhaps it can be. But I think the key is to keep the controversies with God out of our lives and allow Christ to rule and reign unthwarted and unchallenged.

Just some thoughts...

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rbanks


RobertW wrote:
Isaiah 66 and Acts 7 are in my mind keys to fullness.

1) Broken spirit
2) contrite spirit
3) Trembles at the word
4) Does [u]not[/u] resist the Holy Ghost (authority)

When we stop resisting and begin trembling. When we come to brokenness and contrition; we can simply ask and I believe God will fill us with His Spirit. We cannot resist and receive at the same time. Some think the key is longevity in praying, and perhaps it can be. But I think the key is to keep the controversies with God out of our lives and allow Christ to rule and reign unthwarted and unchallenged.

Just some thoughts...

I agree a broken & contrite spirit and one who trembles at His word is the only kind God will look to.

C
Christinyou

The fulness is knowing the Christ that is in me. Before I knew only that I had to do all to make God the Father Happy. Now the fulness of Christ in me is the only thing that makes the Father happy. Everything is new every morning, it is Christ and me waking, eating, working, resting, what ever comes is Christ in me as me making the day for the Father count for the blessings and Glory and Honor He so richly deserves and grows more and more every day, line upon line and precept upon precept to love God and neighbor with all my heart, body and soul, which is learning The Christ that is in me, what a Savior. Thanks to my Teacher and my Father.
It truly is the "Christ in me the Hope of Glory"
Making me Perfect even as He is Perfect.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


In Christ: Phillip

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No less an Arminian than John Wesley, in his sermon "Almost Christian" esteems the precious inward sense of forgiveness that comes with justification as the culminating event in his devout religious life. For a man that had already proven his spiritual rigor in both public service and private devotion, it is quite a high view indeed of forgiveness that it was this alone that assured him he was at last, 'altogether Christian.' Wesley's testimony, as well that of Hebrews, is that resting in forgiveness is the ultimate fruit of being a Christian...and true rest can only come from justification.


I'll be curious what others might say here.

Blessings,

MC

How can it be accepted that Wesley was correct in his assessment of Ultimate Fruit of a Christian to be the knowledge of forgiveness? It may well be an ultimate emotion for the "unlearned" Christian, and I believe that however, to say ultimate fruit, I don't believe so when love[agape]to God must be.

And entering God's rest a mere matter of justification? Hmmmm

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KingJimmy wrote:
My understanding of this issue goes like this... God created the world simply through speaking. He said, "Let there be light!" and there was light. God's word is creative and powerful. It does something. Thus, when God declares us righteous, that same powerful and creative word which created the heavens and the earth when God spoke does a powerful and creative work in us. That is, when God declares us righteous, we actually become what God declares us to be. A regenerative change in nature thus is accomplished merely through His declaring us just. For God's word does not return void. It accomplishes whatever it says.

Where does the Blood of Jesus Christ enter into your conclusion[s]?

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Theopenlife, My definitions:
Justification: The declaration by the Judge as "not guilty". Abraham was justified by faith. Results in "when I see the blood I will pass over you." Christ is the propitiation supplied by God. Faith in Christ applies the blood and God reckons us "right".

In "reality" I believe you are correct however, in "actuality", Abraham didn't go to heaven when he died. Why not?

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KingJimmy wrote:

Jimmy, just to clarify, you stand that the imputing of righteousness by its very nature imparts righteousness? But you are NOT saying that God gives us righteousness and this is what justifies us, correct?


Correct. Imputing righteousness from God instantaneously yields the fruit of imparted righteousness... not the other way around.

Sure it is. The [u]imputed[/u] righteousness of God upon our new birth in Him (1 Peter1:4) is the very Nature of the Father that we might learn His Character. Learning is a process whereby our success is measured by the [u]impartation[/u] of His righteousness unto being conformed to Jesus Christ. . . . unto "Joint-heir-ship".

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Correct. Imputing righteousness from God instantaneously yields the fruit of imparted righteousness... not the other way around.

Not if it is a learning process.

Jesus ""learned" obedience . . . . "


That is also correct. Wesley also believed that righteousness is actually imparted when righteousness is imputed. Contrary to Calvinistic/Reformed views, God doesn't keep His fingers crossed when He declares you righteous. Instead, when God declares you righteous, He actually makes you what He says you are.

Unto salvation? I believe so. But unto "son-ship"? I don't believe so. Son-ship is our part and "with much tribulation we must enter" and remain in the process of becoming a son brought unto Glory.

Most of Christendom is never taught that sons is what God was after when creating Adam. When Adam failed it meant they first all needed to be redeemed to continue in the process of "becoming".


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Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Who is responsible when evidence is called for?

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RobertW

Who is responsible when evidence is called for?

I find it very interesting that there are no schools to learn how to sin. There is no such thing as sabbath schools to teach iniquity. The reason why is that sinners will find their sin themselves because they have a lust for sin. It's what's on their minds. Their self-will is self-realized and they needed no help to achieve it. I think the same is true when one has passed from death to life:

[color=000066]I John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye [u]need not[/u] that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [/color]

A Born Again believer will need to learn of Christ, but the Holy Spirit that is in them is working in them to learn righteousness and holiness. This person will 'find' the resources. They will thirst for truth as a parched tongue desires to be quenched with a single drop of water. You don't have to 'force feed' one that has been 'anointed'. They dont need any man, all they need is access to truth (the scriptures and related works).

Some say John spent much time with the Ephesian church. It would make sense as Paul says something similar to I John 2:27:

[color=000066] But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; (EPh. 4)
[/color]

There is a very natural flow to the teaching. It is not forced. It is not like pulling teeth. God places a desire for truth in the heart of a New Born believer and it is their responsibility to cultivate it. As surely a a new born baby desires milk- so also a new born child of God desires the sincere milk of the word that they might grow thereby.

A baby cannot make himself/herself 'hunger' it is a God given natural impulse. What they can do is cultivate that hunger by feeding it. No Sunday school teacher or preacher has the power or responsibility to force feed the hearers. Their responsibility as a shepherd (pastor/teacher) is to [i]help[/i] provide the milk for the young and the tablelands for the older (Psalm 23).

Who is responsible when evidence is called for?

The great 'evidence', I think, of the Born Again experience will not be full-on 'fruit' at first, it will be a hunger and thirst for righteousness and a desire to sit at Christ's feet as a 'learner'. Their 'meat' will be to do God's pleasure. This is two fold- hearing and then doing. It is only then that Truth becomes sustenance whereby a child of God may grow. And as they learn Christ they will yield much fruit and their fruit will remain.

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RobertW


The great 'evidence', I think, of the Born Again experience will not be full-on 'fruit' at first, it will be a hunger and thirst for righteousness and a desire to sit at Christ's feet as a 'learner'. Their 'meat' will be to do God's pleasure. This is two fold- hearing and then doing. It is only then that Truth becomes sustenance whereby a child of God may grow. And as they learn Christ they will yield much fruit and their fruit will remain.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Matt 5:6 (KJV)

In this Jesus makes not distinction between the "regenerate" and the "unregenerate".

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RobertW

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

In this Jesus makes not distinction between the "regenerate" and the "unregenerate".

I have long seen the sermon on the Mount as the fruit of the Spirit filled life; the normal course of the born again. There are 'times' and 'awakenings' when the unregenerate may experience any number of the blessings in Matthew 5, but I think that it is the normal life of the regenerate.

I believe God in His grace gives man a 'taste' of Himself during the times of visitation and it their responsibility to taste and see that the Lord is good.

There are also times when man may have the 'will' to do good, but the power was not present and though they would seek- they did not find how to perform it(Romans 7:18). But for the regenerate it is God that worketh in them both [u]to will[/u] and [u]to do[/u] God's good pleasure.

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HI BeYeDoers

Below is what I mean by salvation. Only read this if you have much spare time or are suffering from insomnia, but you asked so here is my answer, which of course is my opinon on what Salvation is. This will be based on Scripture and obvioulsy my own salvation....Frank

How Great is the Darkness?

One of the most pivotal chapters in the NT is the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John. This chapter is almost exclusively responsible for division down through the centuries. This is not a negative but a positive thing as the Truth is divisive, it divides truth from error.
While “Sola fide,” faith alone, has received all the theological attention, and was indeed the precursor to the Reformation, chapter 6 has methodically been going quietly about its business of dividing truth from error. This writer would assert that even more than faith alone, this chapter rightly divides the ,”visible church,” into two major groups, the wheat and the tares.


The proponents of faith alone should not be comforted by this fact and automatically assume that they are wheat and light to the world. The world can handle darkness much better than dimness that masquerades as light. We shall see that the Word of God cuts very sharp and is more discerning than to bestow light on those who merely give mental assent to the truth. We shall also see that not only did the Reformation , “rent in two,” the visible church here on earth, but that the Protesting faction was fractured beyond imagination by the deeper truths of Chapter 6 and the Word in general.


Chapter 6 starts out by Jesus feeding the 5000. The timing of this miracle, like every detail of Jesus’ life had nothing to do with happenstance. Every step, every word, every action was ordained by God before time itself. Verse 3 gives us the clues as to why the miracle occurs,

“Our Fathers ate manna in the desert: as it is written,”He gave them bread from heaven to eat.”

So we see that the loaves and the fishes would be symbolic and a reenactment of Gods sustaining power in the desert for the children of Israel. It is an important point to remember that every single one of those who were sustained in the desert, bar two, died in the desert due to grumbling and discontentment. Physical bread from heaven clearly sustains the physical body, but to the shame of the Israelites, it did nothing for their ungrateful and forgetful hearts.


Now here we are, 1500 years later,in the time of Christ, and once again people are following God for physical food.

V26.. “Most assuredly I say to you that you seek Me not because you saw the sign, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.”

One sees that man has learned nothing and has not changed at all, they are still seeking the gift and not the giver. This is a reflection on the human condition and wicked heart that is corrupt and self-serving.

This is undoubtedly where proponents of Calvinism would jump in and use the “abuse excuse,” and teach us about Total depravity. They would argue that man could only react in this way because of the falleness of his nature and total depravity of his heart. This argument reduces “Gods displeasure,” of such depravity to a nonsense. His punishment of the children in the desert makes no sense if one is to believe that there was only one way for them to react.

Calvinism would have us believe that while one could not possibly respond in any other way, because of total depravity, one still had the responsibility to respond in the proper manner and still be held accountable for their actions. Since this makes no sense to anyone, it is called a “Mystery.” This explanation is not good enough.


So we now know why the people were following Jesus that day, V26 establishes the reason. The people should have been following Him because of His teachings, His Word and yet they were selfish and self-serving. This is a condition that all true Christians must guard against.

Jesus has now identified the primary problem of the human condition. Right from the beginning the Lord has been seeking a people who will, of their own free will, worship Him, serve Him and follow Him not for what He can do for them, but for who He is.

The question then , since it has been established that physical bread does nothing for the heart, what is Spiritual bread? What leads to life and not death? How does one truly serve God? The last question is asked and answered in v28-29 “Then they said to Him, “What shall we do that we may work the works of God?.” Jesus answered and said to them ,”This is the work of God, that you believe in whom He sent.”

And so Jesus teaches us that men must “believe,”in whom God sent. This belief has to come on the unsaved side. Now one could start a long debate about the nature of Grace and what it takes for a man to initially believe in the first place, yet this debate would have to take place outside the realms of Scripture because Jesus did not say that He had come to enable us to believe, He merely commands us and shows us what it takes to “do the works of God.”

At this point He is not talking to regenerated people. He is talking to people who are merely following Him for a free meal. To assert that it takes a special Grace for these people to carry out what He has just instructed is to insert into the Scriptures something that is simply not there. It is precisely because the Protestants have made “believe in Him,”the totality of Salvation that this problem occurs.

And yet, we shall see, that believing in Him comes in many forms and is a first step in a serious of teachings and commands from Jesus on how to attain eternal life, a NT concept and the exclusive teaching of Jesus. Here is an interesting quote from Justin Martyr, Bishop of Antioch, writing to the Roman Emperor in his “First Apology.”

"And we have been taught that in the beginning He of His goodness, for peoples sakes, formed all things out of unformed matter: and if they by their actions show themselves worthy of His design, they are accounted worthy, so we have received, of reigning with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so we consider those who likewise choose what is pleasing to him, on account of their choice, counted worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being was not our choice, but in order that we may follow those things that please him, choosing them by means of the rational powers He has given us, He both persuades us and leads us into faith."

So we see from the earliest possible sources that “believing,” was but a step towards salvation and an exercise of our “rational powers,” which we all have.


If believing is not the totality of Salvation, then what does the Scriptures say about what is Salvation. How does God make a way for a people who will follow after Him for who He is and for this purpose alone? Jerr 31:31-33 “Behold the days are coming says the Lord, when I will make a new Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.My Covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

But this Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after these days says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother saying “Know the Lord , for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord.” Ezek 11:19 “Then I will give them one heart and I will put a new spirit within them and take the stony heart out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh and they will walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them and they will be my people and I will be their God.” We can see from the Scriptures that the Lord had a definite plan for the human heart and condition.

As Justin Martyr said, each man on earth has the capacity in the “rational mind,” to believe in the Lord and that belief will lead to faith. This goes against the Prevenient grace of Arminius, the Grace of Calvary, enabling men to believe the Gospel. If one believes that the ability to believe in the rational mind is a gift from God, which of course it is, then it can certainly be called Grace.

Yet it cannot come under the strict definition of Grace, which would be “unmerited favor, because this part of the rational mind is a vital necessity to the human state and the plan of God for salvation. It is part and parcel of His infinite and perfect judgment.

Therefore it was engineered into humanity from the very beginning.
The whole concept is an awesome one. The Lord Himself had come to earth to teach the people how they could do the “works of God.” The plan was to give the people a new heart. The old human heart was detestable and followed only after its own desires. This is not to say that all men were detestable in all their actions, men made rational decisions, some good and some bad, but their heart was far from God. In order for perfect judgment to be carried out by God, then Salvation was made available to all men everywhere.

The Lord was and is seeking a people who would no longer desire to sin, a people who would follow His commands not because they had to to earn salvation but because Salvation had already been attained and it was now the desire of their hearts to please their heavenly Father. He is seeking a people who will treasure their relationship with Him more than their sin and the desires of their heart.

When this is achieved then the desires of their heart become His desires. The only way to accomplish this is a death of the old heart and a birth of the new.
Jesus says in John 3 that “Unless a man is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” And so the people of John 6 were faced with the ultimate choice. Did they want to follow Jesus which would lead to the death of their sinful hearts, or would they continue to serve their, “bellies,?” Jesus leaves them in no doubt that their can be no partial salvation, either they take all of Him or they take none of Him. Most, at this point, chose to continue to serve themselves and reject Jesus. If we make the mistake of taking Jesus literally when He says , “ Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood , you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,” then that error will condemn us to continued death in the flesh.

The symbolic act of taking a piece of bread and drinking some wine can in no way substitute for the new heart.
Since Jesus has already stated in John 3 that we must be born-again to enter heaven we must search the Scripture further to see what else Jesus says about eternal life.

What else does the Scriptures say about eternal life and how we attain it. We must first realize that eternal life is a New Testament concept. The phrase, “eternal life,” will not be found anywhere in the OT. Eternal life is the exclusive teaching of Jesus. The only time that the word eternal is used in the Old Testament is in reference to God or His attributes. This is exactly why there was a split in the OT community. The Sadducees and their scribes did not believe in life after death at all. On the other hand, the Pharisees did and this gave them an impetus to live ascetic lifestyles in order to please God .

The Pharisees originally started as a genuine movement to follow God’s laws and commandments. They believed they would be rewarded with eternal life for their efforts, for their own righteousness. And so it is left to Jesus to reveal the truth about life after death and the eternal destiny of a mans soul. A phrase study of , “eternal life,” reveals that this phrase is used 42 times in the New Testament and none in the OT. Of the 42, 16 are to be found in the Gospel of John. Another 6 is found in 1st John so we can see that over half of the teachings of eternal life come from the Apostle John.


So what does it take for a man to gain eternal life? Seven times out of the 42 it is stated that one must believe. The first reference in the Scriptures to , “believe,” in conjuction with eternal life is found in John 3:15 where it is stated that we must believe in Him, Him meaning Jesus of course. John 3:16, 36 states the same thing. John 5:24 has a slight variation but in essence says the same thing. So there can be no doubt that believing in God the Father and His Son Jesus is a major element in salvation and eternal life, but, is that all that the scriptures say?

In order to fully understand what the Scriptures tell us about eternal life we must take the totality of what it has to say about eternal life. If 7 out of the 42 references compel us to believe, then what do the other 35 references tell us to do? A pivotal Scripture is John 6:68. Remember, the Gospel of John can be summed up as the Gospel of belief versus unbelief. More than any other Gospel, it exposes the different types of unbelief. A good example of this would be chapter 8 where Jesus is talking to “believing Jews,’ but before the chapter is finished, these same “believers,” are ready to stone Him. John 6:68 “ But Simon Peter answered Him “Lord, to whom shall we go? For you have the Words of eternal life. And also we have come to believe and know that you are the Christ , the Son of the living God.”

The interesting thing about these verses is that it clearly divides between believing that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God and the fact that Jesus’ words were Eternal life. The Greek word for words in this Scripture is RHEMA (HRAY-MAH) One of the translations for this word is , “Commands,” and so the Scripture would read “You have the commands of eternal life.” So what are Jesus’ commands to us for attaining eternal life? We have already looked at “believing,” which of course is an intregal part, but is it the whole? James chapter 2 “You believe there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe and tremble.”

This Scripture should be an enormous red flag to the Protestant world. A mere mental assent to the abstract truth that Jesus is the Son of God will not save you. And before the Catholic world looks on smugly, one should know exactly what James was talking about when he talks about works. “You have faith, I have works. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.” Clearly this passage from James has been highly controversial.

One side says that faith alone saves and that works are merely the overflow of that faith. The other sides maintains that unless faith is accompanied by works then there can be no salvation, eternal life. So it would seem that unless we have a working definition of the word , “works,” we can have no resolution to the problem. Catholics believe that , “works,” is the Sacraments. They believe that it is through the Sacraments and participation in them that one does the works of God. And that by participating in the Sacraments one is endowed with grace which will work towards salvation. Anything lacking will be made up for in purgatory.

The Protestant world is a hodgepodge. Many of the major denominations, such as the Church of England and Episcopalians also believe in works being the Sacraments. Baptists in general and Pentecostals and Non-denominational Evangelical organizations believe in works more along the lines of , “doing good,” helping people in distress, helping the poor and so on. Is this really what James was talking about?

James is identifying hypocrites. He is highlighting people who say they are believers but there is no change in their lives. When a person is born-again he is a completely new person, with a new nature , a new Love of God , love of man , love of His Word, love of His neighbor. If one claims to be born-again, but they do not exhibit any change or any of the aforementioned attributes, then that person is the person that James is talking about. Now here is the crux of what the Scriptures is teaching in regard to “works.” It is not charitable deeds, it is not Sacraments, in fact, it is nothing that you do. Remember Jesus Himself said that to do the works of God is to believe. And so when one truly believes, a belief that leads to Salvation and eternal life, then one will be changed in all the ways mentioned above. And that very change is the , “works.”

Not your works, lest any man should boast or believe that somehow God owes us something, for He owes us nothing, but His works, for it is He who changes the dead man who believes, into a man who is alive in Him. Every change in the genuine believer is a work of God. It is this work that brings glory to God, not charitable works or good works, for indeed, God has told us to do all those in secret, not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing. Heb 4:9 “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself ceased from his works as God did from His.”

The works that the world must see is the works of God in the redemption and sanctification of man. In this way, the Catholics are actually closest to the Truth than most Protestants in that they recognize that it is what God does for man through His grace that is to be seen by the world.

Their problem is they have mere symbol through their sacraments and no reality. The reality being a transformed life of one who is genuinely born-again. And so we have two groups of people, one group still wandering in the desert, looking merely to be fed and sustained, and another who have actually entered into the promised land and His rest. The wandering group crosses all denominational lines. Those who have entered the promised land and have entered His rest will be self-evident, not by their good works, but by His good works in them.

And so it is those who were alive in the flesh, died, and were born-again through the Spirit that are the genuine believers. Another pivotal Scripture that provides what must come after “belief,” is Matt 16:24 where Jesus states emphatically what must take place for a man’s soul to be saved, “If anyone desires to come after me (belief) let him deny himself, and take up his cross , and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it(people in the desert)but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”

It is clear that one must desire to lose his life spiritually, in order to gain eternal life. And so while many believe in God, very few desire to lose their lives in order to be born-again . All of this leads us back to the Reformation and what has happened since then. Not only are the Catholics lost to symbolism, but also most “Protestants,” who have been deceived into believing “that all they have to do,” is believe and they will be saved. As we have just discussed , it is so much more than that and the Lord alone knows the desires of the heart and of those who are willing to “lose their lives for My sake.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote this in the few year before he was killed by the Nazi’s in the book “Cost of Discipleship,”

“ Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjack’s wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generosity, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace we suppose , is that the account has been paid in advance; and because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite.’ “An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure the remission of sins.” “Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out an eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows Him.” “ Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow , and it is grace because it call us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life.”........... “ Yet the outcome of the Reformation was the victory, not of Luther’s perception of grace in all its purity and costliness, but of the vigilant religious instinct of man for the place where grace is obtained at the cheapest price. All that was needed was a subtle and almost imperceptible change of emphasis and the damage was done.”


Bonhoeffer makes a brilliant point here. What he is saying is that the phrase “all you have to do is believe,” is the exact opposite of what drove the Reformation for he adds further down

“ That experience taught him (Luther) that this grace had cost him his very life . When he spoke of grace, Luther always implied as a corollary that it cost him his own life which was now , for the first time subjected to the absolute obedience of Christ.”

Bonhoefer is arguing that belief and the desire to die comes before the grace that leads to salvation. It is vital that this point is not overlooked or, as Bonhoeffer says, “the damage is done,” This is a very subtle point, but one of no greater magnitude. One must believe and have the desire to die, before one will be a recipient of the grace that leads to salvation.

Without the desire to die, belief will do nothing for a man. As Bonhoeffer says, one of the reasons that it is costly grace is that it required the death of Jesus Christ, but, just as our Master, it also requires our death. Now that death, just like Jesus’ , must be sought by our free will. Jesus was not forced to go to Calvary, He chose to go.

We too must choose death in order to gain eternal life. This is no mental exercise. The death of a man who is born-again is as real as physical death. Bonhoeffer “ The upshot of it all is that my only duty as a Christian is to leave the world for an hour or so on a Sunday morning and go to church to be assured that my sins are all forgiven. I need no longer try to follow Christ for cheap grace, the bitterest foe of discipleship, which true discipleship must loathe and detest , has freed me from that. Grace as the data for our calculations means grace at the cheapest price, but grace as an answer to the sum means costly grace.

It is terrifying to realize what use can be made of a genuine evangelical doctrine. In both cases we have identical formula- “Justification by faith alone.” Yet the misuse of the formula leads to the complete destruction of its very essence.”

This is a powerful indictment of the modern Protesting church. It has used and abused the “Justification by faith alone,” doctrine and turned it into a formula that in essence is devoid of reality, the reality of a genuinely born-again man. The alter call, championed by Charles Finney and taken up by Billy Graham has been the sales rally for cheap grace. In a moment of emotion, when one is told , “all you have to do is believe,” a man responds for many different reasons. Yet , if the reasons are not the reasons which are laid down by Christ, then there is no salvation.

And just as Finney received reports from his workers in the field that within a few short weeks or months of their , “conversion,” that people were back to living their old lives, then so too with the Billy Grahams of the world. This is not to say that there are no genuine salvation’s at Billy Graham rallies, for of course there are, this writer would just argue that it is in spite of the cheap grace that they are saved. Let as look at an alter call by the Lord Himself...........

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me Lord , Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name? And then I will declare to them , I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness. Therefore , whoever hears these sayings of Mine , and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon a rock ; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does not do them, he will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house ; and it fell. And great was the fall.”

This is a typical alter call from Jesus. Number one, He says that only those who “do the will of my Father,” shall enter into heaven. Number two, He states that it is the man who hears “These sayings of mine,” and does them whose house will stand, it is the man who hears them and does not do them whose house will fall and who practice lawlessness. Jesus did not say “this saying of mine,” singular, He said , “these sayings of mine,” plural. This is important because there is no single act that leads to salvation, it is a culmination of belief and a desire to die and a willingness to make Jesus the Lord of your life that saves. It is interesting that when Jesus is telling those people to depart that He calls them , “You who practice lawlessness.”

What is lawlessness? If you lived in a lawless country, there would exist a state of anarchy. No authority, no ruler, each man to his own devices. People who practice lawlessness are under no ones authority, they are a law unto themselves. In the scriptural sense, these are the people who do not follow Jesus’ sayings, they are , “believers,” (for they address Him as Lord) but they are not under His authority for they never died and were never born-again.
Let us look at another alter call of Jesus where we will find more conditions of discipleship, of Salvation, eternal life.

Luke 14:25 “ Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned around and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it- lest , after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him , saying “This man began to build and was not able to finish.” Or what king, going to make war against another king , does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. So likewise , whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple.”

In this scripture we see what has to be done in order to be saved, one must love Jesus more than all his family, bear his cross(must die) count the cost to see if one is willing and able to follow Jesus and finally must be willing to “forsake all,” in order to be a disciple. These are all very real preconditions that one must submit to in order to come to Christ. While it is a fact that not every single genuine believer would be conscious of every single one of these conditions prior to his conversion, it is a fact that God the Father knows our hearts and only those who are indeed willing to follow Christ under all these conditions are truly saved. This is the will of God for every one who would believe ,that they would follow Christ all the way to Calvary and beyond. While it is true that most modern Christians will never actually be asked to forsake everything for Him, it is no less of a precondition to discipleship.
All of this brings us back to John six. In John six Jesus laid it on the line. He revealed who He was and what it would take to follow Him. Unless we are willing to take all of Him, not just the parts that appeal, then we will be lost. Jesus requires it all, and just as in John 6, most of His followers, His , “believers,” turned back at this point. As it was then, so it is today, “many are called but few are chosen.” It is only when Jesus is truly revealed, it is only when the true cost of Discipleship is preached, that the sheep are separated from the goats. Perhaps you have been a “ believer ,” all of your life. You have been raised and taught that , “all you have to do is believe,” and now know that this is not the case. I would ask you the same question that Jesus asked, once the Truth had been revealed , “Do you also want to go away?”

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I have long seen the sermon on the Mount as the fruit of the Spirit filled life; the normal course of the born again.

Normal or recognized course of action the unregenerate can never do? Jesus spoke the beatitudes to His disciples who were yet to be regenerated-reborn in Him which made the WORK of the cross all the more significant for their lives.

There are 'times' and 'awakenings' when the unregenerate may experience any number of the blessings in Matthew 5, but I think that it is the normal life of the regenerate.

Since it is a depiction of the Life of Jesus that will culminate in the "WORK of the cross" and His "Throne-ship", it would be correct in stating this as the "WAY of the Cross"; a life lived souly unto the Father, by His disciples that will culminate in our "joint-heir-ship". "Take My yoke upon you . . . ", and then "Take up your cross and follow Me", were His words to us that infer our own Throne-ship with Him as the reward for overcoming our self(fish)-nature. [b]"He who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life; sit on My Throne, govern the nations, "give of the of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.[/b] "Rev 2:17 (ASV)."

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RobertW

Normal or recognized course of action the unregenerate can never do?

I think that the unregenerate can 'do' things that are commanded, but it cuts against the grain of their nature. Satan 'obeys' and does what God tells Him to do and so do the demons, but it is because they fear and tremble. Satan does not will to do God's good pleasure; it is not his 'meat', but because God is all powerful he obeys.

Likewise those that were under the law could 'do' those things written in the law, but there were times when it was a great struggle and they faultered. But look at the life of Steven in Acts 7. He took up Matthew 5 unwavering, and because he was thoroughly a place of God's rest he was FULL of the Holy Ghost and was able to yield the fruit of the Spirit under the most fierce circumstances. To me, the evidence of this and the great evidence that he were a son is his reaction to pray mercy for his tormentors in the end. no man could do what Steven did if he be not FULL of the Holy Ghost.

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RobertW wrote:
Normal or recognized course of action the unregenerate can never do?

quote]
I think that the unregenerate can 'do' things that are commanded, but it cuts against the grain of their nature.

In my quote is the word "recognize", not "commanded". Knowing the penalty, who can resist God's commandment but the unregenerate, who can't attach penalties to commandments they don't recognize? . . . "except a preacher be sent"

Satan 'obeys' and does what God tells Him to do and so do the demons, but it is because they fear and tremble. Satan does not will to do God's good pleasure; it is not his 'meat', but because God is all powerful he obeys.

Do the unregenerate, "fear and tremble" without a cause, that leads to repentance? I don't think so. The cause must first be given.

Likewise those that were under the law could 'do' those things written in the law, but there were times when it was a great struggle and they faultered.

and without an advocate with the Father what were they left with? . . . Only more of what confounded them.

But look at the life of Steven in Acts 7. He took up Matthew 5 unwavering, and because he was thoroughly a place of God's rest he was FULL of the Holy Ghost and was able to yield the fruit of the Spirit under the most fierce circumstances. To me, the evidence of this and the great evidence that he were a son is his reaction to pray mercy for his tormentors in the end. no man could do what Steven did if he be not FULL of the Holy Ghost.

There can be no doubt about that. Steven's success in Christ was His seeing the "way" of the cross presented him by the Holy Ghost, "who will take the things of Mine (My Life while on earth) and reveal them to you". In this we can certainly see the beatitudes as the outline that require a "great commandment" for one's success..

Question: What is the sustaining message, or would it be better presented as a 'sustaining vision', that Steven enjoyed that we must embrace?

Are we straying from the OP?

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RobertW

What is the sustaining message, or would it be better presented as a 'sustaining vision', that Steven enjoyed that we must embrace?

I think what sustained Steven is clearly his perpetual fullness of the Holy Ghost. The Glory of God was upon the temple of his body in a way would to God we all knew experientially. He did not grieve the Holy Ghost in his crisis and in that fullness he preached like few others have ever preached, with a wisdom that could not be resisted. i wonder how wonderful that must have been, not an angry man, but a man with one eye in Eternity and one in Israel. He saw Christ glorified at the right hand of God and a sinful people that had rejected him. He may have plummed the depths of Jeremiah's grief in one eye and Isaiah's 'woe is me' in the other. And there is no other way to preach.

I think he would have enjoyed the Holy Ghost bringing to his remembrance all the truth he needed to accomplish this final task for God and he trembled at it. When he saw those stones taken up he knew that vengeance belongs to God and perhaps he had a 'vision' of the wrath of God upon the people if they don't repent. And in this he remained humble and contrite; he trembled at the word of God (Isaiah 66:2). He was a living demonstration of his sermon. God rested in him and he in God.

I have always wondered how much of an impression this sermon had on Paul's understanding. I think God opened Paul's mind to see the theology of Steven's witness and we call it the book of Romans. We call it Galatians and I Corinthians...

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I believe Paul tried to explain it as the mystery of the cross.

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RobertW

I believe Paul tried to explain it as the mystery of the cross.

Very good. :-)

I think God opened Paul's mind to see the theology of Steven's witness.

Steven's witness was the 'example' God chose Paul to see of what God intended for [i]man[/i] in reconciling Himself to man through the finished work of the cross. Only in eternity will we know all God purposed in the cross, but Steven was a living demonstration in his life and in his death.

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RobertW

Steven's witness was the 'example' God chose Paul to see of what God intended for man in reconciling Himself to man through the finished work of the cross. Only in eternity will we know all God purposed in the cross, but Steven was a living demonstration in his life and in his death.
Amen! . . I believe we all need a "continuing education" course in what it really means to be a "Christian" and that nominalism won't make the cut.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance . . . .
[moreover,] 'How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation . . . ' . . Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and Godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God . . Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.. . . And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

2 Peter 3:9; Heb. 2:3; 2Peter 3:11-12,14-16. (KJV)

[emphasis added]

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