Troubling Questions for y'all

A book by Dr. F. Lagard Smith entitled [u][b]Troubling Questions for Calvinists[/b][/u]... And all the rest of us. One thing that seems clear is that he is out to show the fallacy of original sin. The chapter on original sin begins with 15 questions that I thought I would put here for your consideration.

Under a section entitled What Fell in "the Fall"? he writes,

[b]1:[/b] What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]a)[/b] If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

[b]b)[/b] If so, were they simply exceptions to an otherwise universal rule of predestination and sovereign causation?

[b]2:[/b] Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?

[b]3:[/b] What about immediately after "the Fall"?

[b]4:[/b] By virtue of their created nature as human beings, were Adam and Eve:

[b]a)[/b] innately inclined more toward evil than good; or

[b]b)[/b] innately inclined more toward good than evil; or

[b]c)[/b] simply given a neutral capacity for moral choice between good and evil?

[b]5:[/b] Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]6:[/b] Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]7:[/b] Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]8:[/b] If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b]9:[/b] If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]10:[/b] Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]11:[/b] In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

[b]12:[/b] Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]13:[/b] Even granting that ejection from the Garden put distance between God and man as compared with the close communion Adam and Eve had shared with him, is there anything in Scripture suggesting that a fundamental change in the human constitution also resulted?

[b]14:[/b] Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]15[/b] In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, [b]but you must master it[/b]." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?
If you believe that Cain's ability to do right would have required a prior act of regeneration, what biblical passage indicates that?

First of all, original sin is NOT a fallacy.
God created Adam and Eve for His purposes and
for communion with Him. He gave them the right
(will) to chose to obey or disobey. Every human
since Adam has that choice to make: Will he
honor and obey God's word of truth or not??
And all of us (that's all without exception)
have fallen short of God's design and higher
purpose for our lives!!

Amen,

And God is the only one in Whom we have to deal with, we can not turn to mans wisdom or philosophical questions. When we stand before Jesus Christ not a one of these question will be relevant. For He is the One in whom we live and move and have our being. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

In Christ: Phillip

Blessings to all of you. I wrote this a few months ago and I hope this helps the discussion.

Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree; this was sinful because it was disobedience. Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

What was God's response? God killed an animal (First time anything had ever died) and used the skin to cover their shame. Genesis 3:21, "And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them."

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.
Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

We are born with more than weakness; we are born with a sinful nature. The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Praise be to the Lord Jesus, who was born of a woman but the Son of God who redeemed us from our sin. Genesis 3 is a shadow of what Christ would do in that He was sacrificed to cover our shame.

[b]How unwilling men are to admit their depravity....[/b]

1: What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]According to Revelation 13:8, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and according to 1st Peter 1:19-20, Christ (the Messiah) was foreordained before the foundation of the world. How could a Savior be fore-ordained if God had not decreed that there would be a Fall?[/b]

a) If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. Deut 29:29. It's not our job to pry into the secret things God. We know that God has ordained all that has happened in history, for he is sovereign, yet he has remained pure and holy. Man is completely responsible for his own sin.[/b]

2: Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?

[b]No. God saw that things were good.[/b]

3: What about immediately after "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. They immediately shifted blame on who was at fault in the sin. Adam blamed Eve and even blamed God by declaring that it was the women whom God gave him who made him sin. Eve shifts blame to the devil.[/b]

4: By virtue of their created nature as human beings, were Adam and Eve:

c) simply given a neutral capacity for moral choice between good and evil?

[b]Appears most likely to me.[/b]

5: Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]Yes. Mankind, prior to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is now completely devoid of all good. Even his good works are tainted by selfish ends.[/b]

6: Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]Yes. Romans 7:18 Paul declares that in his flesh dwells no good thing. This could hardly be said of Adam at the creation since in Genesis 1:31 God declares all things very good. Therefore, there was a constitutional change in the human "flesh" after the fall so that, not only is not very good, it is in fact completely empty of all good. Also, Genesis 5:3 declares that Adam bore a sin in his own likeness and image... not God's. [/b]

7: Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]The tree of knowledge of good and evil includes an experiential knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve now knew good and evil because they were in fact evil. Genesis 2:7 declares that they would surely die, compare with Ephesians 2:1 which says we are dead in trespasses and sins. After the fall, Adam and Eve became slaves of sin.[/b]

8: If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b]Yes.[/b]

9: If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]Mankind still has free will. However, that free will is only free in the sense of the desires of the person using it. Mankind is completely devoid of any desires for good and even his "good" desires are tainted by selfishness (dead in trespasses and sins). Just because Adam and Eve were not totally depraved does not mean that they could not fall.[/b]

10: Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]The Fall was predestined and allowed by God for the purpose of magnifying His name through saving man by Christ Jesus. As I mentioned above, if the Messiah was foreordained from the foundation of the world, then the fall that produced man in need of a Messiah must have been predestined from the foundation of the earth.[/b]

11: In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

[b]An argument from silence is not a very good argument. There is plenty of other Scripture that indicates that man is born depraved.[/b]

12: Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]This has already been answered by Romans 7:18 and Ephesians 2. See above.Not to mention Psalm 51:5, which, no matter how false teachers try and slice it, still speaks of original sin. Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?[/b]

13: Even granting that ejection from the Garden put distance between God and man as compared with the close communion Adam and Eve had shared with him, is there anything in Scripture suggesting that a fundamental change in the human constitution also resulted?

[b]This is basically the same question that has been asked before. See above.[/b]

14: Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]Romans 5:15 declares that through the sin of one, many be dead. How much clearer do men want it?[/b]

15 In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must master it." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?

[b]Yes, as an effect of the fall, Cain could not completely master sin. As to the legitimacy of of God commanding something he could not actually do, the same thing is true of the command to obey the law perfectly. Yes, the law is good. No, we cannot obey it. The purpose was to drive men to the mercy of God in Christ.[/b]

If you believe that Cain's ability to do right would have required a prior act of regeneration, what biblical passage indicates that?

[b]Phil 2:13, Isa 26:12, Ezek 36:26-27, 2 Cor 3:5, John 3:3[/b]

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The liar became Adam and Eves father because they believed. Just like we become the Body of Christ because we believe in Him and what God has said about His Son.

Two trees, one of choice to believe the devil and him then becoming our father, lest why did He lie. He wanted to become like God.

The other the tree of Life, which is the fulfillment of Eph 1:4. That is why they were kicked out of the Garden, so they would be of their chosen father the devil and not live in that state and of the tree of life forever.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now the Lamb slain before the foundation would take effect after God shows man in everyway that He is justified in The Cross and putting Christ's Seed birthed in the believer, and then the nature of Adam's father and ours before the Cross or before we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and in that purpose we have a new nature and Father and Brother and Spirit-Holy.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

A new creation race of people, God's people chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

"Creature"
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2937. ktisis
Search for G2937 in KJVSL
ktisiV ktisis ktis'-is
from 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.

See Greek 2936

In Christ: Phillip

The bible is clear that man was given a choice to obey or disobey. God wanted man to obey him and overcome the devil's temptation. This would have been the overthrow Satan from the beginning. This would have lead to man's exaltation through the eating of the tree of life to an angelic state.

God's kingdom must be rid of all disobedience and God created man in a lowly state than angel's because of his foresight of the fall. When man fell he became an altogether different kind of being under the control of Satan. He drove man from the Garden and blocked the way of the tree of Life. God in his wisdom kept eternal life in His Son whom he sent to the world at his appointed time to overthrow Satan and redeem fallen man. He gives eternal life to all who obey Him.

Dare we accuse God of being responsible for the fall, only unregenerate men would do such a thing!

That would be a really well-planned man-centered salvation.

However, here is some Scripture to give glory to God, bring some sober truth to such confusion, and destroy error.

Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. [b]From me is thy fruit found.[/b] (Hosea 14:8)

A new heart also will [b]I[/b] give you, and a new spirit will [b]I[/b] put within you: and [b]I[/b] will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and [b]I[/b] will give you an heart of flesh. And [b]I[/b] will put my spirit within you, and [b]cause you[/b] to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

And [b]I[/b] will make an everlasting covenant with them, that [b]I[/b] will not turn away from them, to do them good; but [b]I will put my fear in their hearts[/b], that they shall not depart from me. (Jer 32:40)

On a side note: The Sovereign, Holy God of Heaven was not taken aback and suprised by the fall. It was accounted for and part of the turn of events that would ultimately serve to glorify God in Christ.

Since the fall, man is now slaves to sin, unable to fear God or even see the truth of the Gospel without God removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh.

For [b]God[/b], who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

However, part of the fall is now that man is wickedly attached to his own righteousness and goodness, which leads men to even deny the effects of the fall. The old Puritans used to speak of not only repenting of sin, but repenting of your so-called goodness. Oh that God would slay these Philistines of false doctrine and revive soul-humbling truth in the land.

Please consider the entire quote of mine you quoted...

"Since the fall, man is now slaves to sin, unable to fear God or even see the truth of the Gospel [b]without God removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh"[/b]

Not desiring to derail this thread, but wanting to address the same copy/pasted quote from Justin Martyr that has floated around here before and has been addressed at length, here is the link for a full rebuttal.

[url=http://theopenlife.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-man-who-seems-to-have-faith.html]Rebuttal to a man who seems to have faith in faith.[/url]

I did consider it brother, I simply disagree with you......Frank

No, you disagree with the Holy Scripture and the God who breathed them. I humbly urge you to repent.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jer 32:40)

All of the verses you quoted I completely agree with, we are to fear God. However, man will not fear God unless God takes that dead heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh. This is plainly declared in the Scripture.

Read the article that theopenlife posted for you. The "earliest possible sources" on this matter is the Holy Scripture, not Justin Martyr, who is not regarded as canonical or inspired.

I know this post may sound harsh, but there is too much jellyfish, no-backbone theology floating around, and people need to stand up and declare Scriptural truths such as the depravity of man, the sovereignty of God, the holiness of God, the free grace of God, and such other truths that have been falling aside.

Appolus,

I would urge you to learn about the godly Scottish men who believe these things. Perhaps look into the "Scots Worthies" or "Fair Sunshine".

Just because some have preached these doctrines in a cold, formal way does not discredit them. For they have often been preached with such warmth and fervency that it would make even the preachers we consider "radical" to look like ear-ticklers.

If it wasn't for God's grace in rising up men who believed things like the depravity of man and God's sovereignty, we could all be attending mass tomorrow and wondering how long we will spend in purgatory. All while the priest reads a Latin Bible and tells us to pray the hail Mary five times.

What is God's Grace?

Ephesians 2:4-8 But God , who is rich in mercy , for his great love wherewith he loved us , Even when we were dead in sins , hath quickened us together with Christ , (by grace ye are saved ;) And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus : That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus . For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God :

Grace:
5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

The center of Grace is, "God's Devine influence upon the Heart". Unmerited favor.

So if I may, insert the definition:

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) ((that is: "By God's Devine influence upon the Heart,)) you are saved". ((Added))

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace ("in his Devine influence upon the heart") in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (God's Devine influence on the heart) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is, "faith" and where does it come from?

Faith:
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3982. peitho
Search for G3982 in KJVSL
peiqw peitho pi'-tho
a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

To sum up: The center of Faith is the, "truthfulness of God in inward certainty to agree and believe and obey".

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen .

Substance:
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5287. hupostasis
Search for G5287 in KJVSL
upostasiV hupostasis hoop-os'-tas-is
from a compound of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):--confidence, confident, person, substance.

Added, The center of substance is; Concrete assurance objectively or subjectively, confidence of the person of substance, which is God.

Which is the evidence we have in ourselves.

Read Heb 11, with in place of faith, insert the "Truthfulness of God", by the influence of God on the heart. Who's faith is it? Moses, Abraham, Noah, only by the truthfulness and the influence of God on the Heart.

They were saved "by" this influence, "The truthfulness of God", by the faith imputed, from the outward influence of God, which God counted to them as righteousness.

We are saved "through" the inward influence of Christ in us the Hope of Glory, which God has made us righteous in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

"""IN CHRIST"""

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved (through) faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

"The Gift of God"?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Faith of the Son of God, "Saved by Grace Through Faith." His Devine influence on the Heart of the truthfulness of God.

This is Paul's Devine mission to impart these truths to the Saints of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to h\\His working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

JaySaved wrote:

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."
Same as children today.

Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Once a child knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good(Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16) and then when the child disobeys that which he knows to do or not to do, he shall die spiritualy, for he is going against his own conscience(law of his heart).

Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

The cause of Adams fall is the flesh as with the rest of us:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]

[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

Adam died spiritually when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.

Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

We are born with more than weakness; we are born with a sinful nature.

The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin.

If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Jesus did not stay sinnless just because HE was God, otherwise our standard would be unjust, because we are not God.
Standards must be atainable!

TaylorOtwell wrote:
[b]How unwilling men are to admit their depravity....[/b]

1: What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]According to Revelation 13:8, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and according to 1st Peter 1:19-20, Christ (the Messiah) was foreordained before the foundation of the world. How could a Savior be fore-ordained if God had not decreed that there would be a Fall?[/b]

It would be rediculous for God to decree anything that HE hates.

a) If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

Yes. Deut 29:29. It's not our job to pry into the secret things God. We know that God has ordained all that has happened in history, for he is sovereign, yet he has remained pure and holy. Man is completely responsible for his own sin.

Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?
Why are we not suposed to inqure of God's seeming injustices?

2: Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?

[b]No. God saw that things were good.[/b]

3: What about immediately after "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. They immediately shifted blame on who was at fault in the sin. Adam blamed Eve and even blamed God by declaring that it was the women whom God gave him who made him sin. Eve shifts blame to the devil.[/b]

5: Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]Yes. Mankind, prior to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is now completely devoid of all good. Even his good works are tainted by selfish ends.[/b]

6: Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]Yes. Romans 7:18 Paul declares that in his flesh dwells no good thing. This could hardly be said of Adam at the creation since in Genesis 1:31 God declares all things very good. Therefore, there was a constitutional change in the human "flesh" after the fall so that, not only is not very good, it is in fact completely empty of all good. Also, Genesis 5:3 declares that Adam bore a sin in his own likeness and image... not God's.[/b]

[b]Genesis 5:3[/b] [color=990000]And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:[/color]

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters after his image in verse 4 .
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brough Noah & he was righteous.

It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".
If it is as some imply that Adam's image is now sinful in contrast to that of when God made Adam & Eve in His image & After His likeness; Then it would surely say that Adam begat Cain "after his image"; and it wouldn’t make a distinction between Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.
However, it only says that seth & him only is "after his image".

7: Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]The tree of knowledge of good and evil includes an experiential knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve now knew good and evil because they were in fact evil.[/b]

[b]Genesis 2:7 declares that they would surely die, compare with Ephesians 2:1 which says we are dead in trespasses and sins. After the fall, Adam and Eve became slaves of sin.
[/b]

8: If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b] Yes[/b]

9: If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]Mankind still has free will. However, that free will is only free in the sense of the desires of the person using it.[/b]

Mankind is completely devoid of any desires for good and even his "good" desires are tainted by selfishness (dead in trespasses and sins).

Fact is that all mankind is [b]not[/b] devoid of any desires for good.

10: Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]The Fall was predestined and allowed by God for the purpose of magnifying His name through saving man by Christ Jesus.[/b]

[b]As I mentioned above, if the Messiah was foreordained from the foundation of the world, then the fall that produced man in need of a Messiah must have been predestined from the foundation of the earth.[/b]

11: In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

An argument from silence is not a very good argument. There is plenty of other Scripture that indicates that man is born depraved.

12: Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]This has already been answered by Romans 7:18 and Ephesians 2. See above.[/b]

[b]Not to mention Psalm 51:5, which, no matter how false teachers try and slice it, still speaks of original sin. Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?[/b]

[b]1:[/b] This scripture is talking about David and his mother. It is not referencing all of humanity.

[b]2:[/b] Taken literally, it is saying that his mother was in some sort of sin when she conceived David.

[b]3:[/b] A strong case can be made that Ps. 51:5 is talking about the defilement of David’s mother, because of a previous marriage to another man.
[b]a[/b] David had two half-sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail (1 Chron. 2:13-16).
[b]b[/b] The father of David’s half sisters was not Jesse but Nahash (2 Sam. 17:25).
[b]c[/b] Nahash was an Ammonite king (1 Sam. 11:1; 1 Sam. 12:12).
[b]d[/b] David’s father was Jesse, not Nahash. But the Father of David’s half sisters were daughts of Nahash. This could explain why Nahash showed kindness towards David (2 Sam. 10:2).

[b]e[/b] David’s mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse. The first wife of Jesse would have been considered superior to his second wife which had been either the concubine or wife of a heathen king.

[b]f[/b] This would explain why David’s half brothers viewed themselves as superior to David, and why David was considered prideful for thinking he was as good as them (1 Sam. 17:28-30).

[b]g[/b] This may explain why David was not called before Samuel the prophet amongst the other sons (1 Sam. 16:11).

[b]h[/b] David’s mother apparently had a good relationship with the Lord (Ps. 86:16; 116:16). But she would have been, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered defiled by her previous relationship with an Ammonite (Num. 25:1,2; Deut. 7:3,4; 1 Kings 11:2-4, Ezra 9:2; Neh. 13:23,25; 2 Cor. 6:14-17).
Points made from [url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/originalsin/Psalms_Fifty_One_Five-WilliamMurray.pdf]A Perspective on Psalm 51:5[/url]

_________________________________________________

Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?

14: Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]Romans 5:15 declares that through the sin of one, many be dead. How much clearer do men want it?[/b]

15 In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must master it." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?

[b]Yes, as an effect of the fall, Cain could not completely master sin.[/b]

[b]As to the legitimacy of of God commanding something he could not actually do, the same thing is true of the command to obey the law perfectly. Yes, the law is good. No, we cannot obey it.[/b]

[b]The purpose was to drive men to the mercy of God in Christ.[/b]

All mankind are able to obey the commands by comming to Christ to do so.
All mankind are able to come to Christ by an inherrent ability to acknowlge the truth with the acting upon that truth.

I'm on a lunch break from work, so I don't have much time to respond to this. However,

What are you really arguing for? Let's assume that people really are born innocent. Even if that's true, everyone would agree they fall and become spiritually depraved at 1.5 - 2 years old. I don't know if you have kids, but they will understand a command from a parent and willingly break it at a [b]very[/b] young age.

But, the fact is, we are born sinful. It has been the disgust of proud men to admit this fact and they have always boasted of their own power and might and that their nature is good, even when their daily experience proves them otherwise.

Not only that, they rail against the holy Scriptures:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were [b]by nature[/b] the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Also, if the wages of sin is death, why do infants ever die?

Regarding your reference to the purpose of the Law driving men to Christ in order to show them how to obey the law, I have few things to say.

First, if by that you meant that after someone is justified by faith alone, they are then motivated to live a godly life of obedience out of thankfulness for the grace of God in Christ (as Titus 2:11 indicates "the grace of God teaches us") then I agree with you. We find our strength and inspiration to honor God in the grace of Christ.

However, if by that statement you meant that as, according to the view I understand you to hold, since Adam was merely a bad example and our nature is not sinful; therefore, Christ is merely a good example who shows us how to be justified by obeying the law. I disagree with you and encourage you to study Galatians and Romans, because you do not know the Gospel nor have any interest in it.

For your further reflection: http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=original+sin

PSalm 58:8
The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as they be born, speaking lies...

love
andy

Quote:

"""By answering this question you are saying that God had a predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong."""

That is what is called the mystery, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." The only difference is God is preempting mans choosing, for he can not choose what is right in his own soul because without Christ, his soul is ruled by one he chose to believe in, his father the devil.

Quote:

"""Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?
Why are we not suposed to inqure of God's seeming injustices"""

There are no injustices with God, only in the minds of men, God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

He revealed the Mystery to Paul, which no one knew anything about from the foundation of the world. To this day no one wants to hear the truth of this Mystery. That takes too much away from man and his pride.

Colossians 1:12-20 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What don't we understand about "ALL".

The Mystery of God chosen before the foundation of the world, revealed to Paul and Paul only, that we might know, that is "KNOW" that all things come together in Christ, that are in Heaven and on Earth.

Colossians 1:21-29 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ and Christ alone, who is our salvation and new life pre planned, before the foundation of the World.

It has happened to the Lamb slain (((FROM))) the foundation of the world.

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that (((was))) slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the (((FROM)))foundation of the world.

It was planned (((BEFORE))) the foundation of the World.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him (((before))) the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is the blessings and the mystery fulfilled in Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

"""Not by "decreeing", but by knowing that there would be a Fall.

It would be rediculous for God to decree anything that HE hates"""

If the foreknowledge of God new of the fall and He still created the Fallen, is that not the same as a decree? Same thing with Satan, God has ruled over Satan since He created him, and God is ruling over the Hearts of Men, that He created and has provided Sonship for them by, in His Plan, Putting Jesus Christ in the Spirits of all who are saved and given to them, by Jesus Christ, "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption".

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I believe God knows what He is doing and needs not man's philosophy. His ways are so far above our peanut of a mind, any one who would question His ways is truly small minded unless he is questioning His ways to know more of the Mind of Christ that has been given him. Then knowing the revelation is coming direct from the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things of God and what Christ has said.

In Christ: Phillip

Amen, Wise virgin.

Your lamp is full and you are waiting and ready for the Bride Groom.

Amen.
In Christ:Phillip

TaylorOtwell wrote:

What are you really arguing for? Let's assume that people really are born innocent. Even if that's true, everyone would agree they fall and become spiritually depraved at 1.5 - 2 years old. I don't know if you have kids, but they will understand a command from a parent and willingly break it at a [b]very[/b] young age.

Yes, children do [b]understand a command[/b] from a parent and willingly break it at a very young age, [b]BUT[/b] they are not accountable for breacking it untill they are past the age of accountability.
Only God knows that age for each child.

But, the fact is, we are born sinful.

It has been the disgust of proud men to admit this fact and they have always boasted of their own power and might and that their nature is good,

The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into or what ever its root is of does change it's fruit.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

The word is "φυσις" phusis - foo'-sis
growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - kind, nature.

The difference is "genesis" defines [b]what[/b] one is, while "phusis" difines [n]who[/n] one is.
The fact that one may choose who ones self becomes or who one is, while one can not choose what one is.
What I am is a man, who I am is a husband of Loiza.

James 1:23 "a man's [b]natural[/b] face"
A mans "genesis" face.
One cannot change his face, but one may change his position with God from wrath "by nature the children of wrath" to His favore.

It is also as when one is thirsty, one naturaly (phusis) drinks; so as if one had his conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" he naturaly is a child of wrath.

Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Also, if the wages of sin is death, why do infants ever die?

Regarding your reference to the purpose of the Law driving men to Christ in order to show them how to obey the law, I have few things to say.

First, if by that you meant that after someone is justified by faith alone, they are then motivated to live a godly life of obedience out of thankfulness for the grace of God in Christ (as Titus 2:11 indicates "the grace of God teaches us") then I agree with you. We find our strength and inspiration to honor God in the grace of Christ.

However, if by that statement you meant that as, according to the view I understand you to hold, since Adam was merely a bad example and our nature is not sinful;

Adam became unlike God with the knowledge of evil, he did [b]not[/b] gain a sin nature.
That would be like calling ones nature accoring to its fruit "apple nature" instead of "plant nature" for an apple tree.

However, calling one sinful does not mean his nature is sin. If you have no respect or reverenc for mariage, you would have fruit towards adultery, you wouldn't have an adulterous nature, because you would still not adulterate that which you respect and reverence.

therefore, Christ is merely a good example who shows us how to be justified by obeying the law.

He also puts us in a right standing with the Father by what HE has done.(this is giving us rightousness)
HE made away for us to recieve His Holy Spirit for being a Helper and a Comforter, and to give us power to be witnesses, for better understanding of His Word...ect...

I disagree with you and encourage you to study Galatians and Romans, because you do not know the Gospel nor have any interest in it.

Did I miss anything, if I did, I might agree with you also.

Christinyou wrote:

By answering this question you are saying that God had a predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong.

That is what is called the mystery, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." The only difference is God is preempting mans choosing, for he can not choose what is right in his own soul because without Christ, his soul is ruled by one he chose to believe in, his father the devil.

Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?

There are no injustices with God, only in the minds of men, God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

Those things are the "[b]seemingly[/b] unjust which we read from scripture that when one misinterprets them, they make God to be unjust.

This is what I am talking about.

God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

If he has not reviled, then you have no right to say I am wrong.

Not by "decreeing", but by knowing that there would be a Fall.

If the foreknowledge of God new of the fall and He still created the Fallen, is that not the same as a decree?

These would mean that God wanted Adam to fall or fortold that he would.

His ways are so far above our peanut of a mind,

any one who would question His ways is truly small minded unless he is questioning His ways to know more of the Mind of Christ that has been given him.

Hello,

I don't have much time to devote to this avenue of discussion. However, I have presented my arguments from the Scripture in what I feel is a plain and clear manner. Also, it is my conviction and I think it is obvious that anyone who denies the teaching that we are born sinful and naturally desire sin over God is showing a plain denial of Holy Scripture and needs to repent of such error.

If anyone desires further reading on the topic, please study the Scriptures I posted.

Also, please consult these resources:

Canons of the Council of Orange (529 AD): http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

Many Articles on Original Sin: http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=original+sin

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How are we perfect?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

wisevirgin wrote:
Q. If God works all things after the counsel of His will, how much does He work to the will of you, me, Satan, etc.?

A. None.

B. 20%

C. 50%

D. 85%

Q. How much of what He wants to come to pass, doesn’t?

A. All of His thoughts will come to pass

B. Some of His thoughts will not come to pass

C. A few of His thoughts will not come to pass

D. A lot of His thoughts will not come to pass

God does not want anybody to sin.
Everybody does.

God's will did not come to pass.

Q. How many do you think have been called, justified, or glorified that He did not first foreknow or foreordain?

A. Write in your answer: ___________________

All who are chosenare justifide & glorified.
However HE foreknew and foreordained those who would respond corectly in contrast to those He knew that wouldn't.

Election and predestination is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I know will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
Romans 8:29

Q. Where does this scripture say that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep and the goats

A. It doesn’t

B. It doesn’t, but I just know He meant the goats, too

Question: were you as ungodly as any goat?

John 6:65 No man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

Q. How many come to Jesus that were not first given to him by the Father?

A. 0

B. 5,000

C. 5,000,000

D. 10,000,000

You can answer thjis if you know that doing what is commanded of you is not to be boasted about, nor is it anything to call "works".

Q. How many that the Father gave Him will not come to Him?

A. Two

B. A couple of thousand

C. A couple of million

D. Trick question, it says they will all come unto him

Q. How many sheep do you think have been snatched from either God’s or Jesus’ hands?

A. None

B. 50,000

C. 500,000

D. 1,000,000

Howmany sons have denied their father ans will not recieve anything from their father?
Mat 10:33, 2Ti 2:12b if [b]we[/b](any christian) deny him, he also will deny us:

Q. Considering this, and other related scripture, God having to blot out a name from the book of life would mean:

A. God makes mistakes.

B. Some have been snatched from Jesus’ hands?

C. God didn’t know that some of His sheep were really goats.

D. None of the above.

Q. Could a person whose name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world not have become a Christian (or have saving faith in God if born before Jesus)?

A. No

B. Yes

C. This confuses me, but I’m going to believe the Bible.

D. This confuses me, and I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible (be honest).

Q. Jesus himself declared that one of the reasons why He spoke in parables was that the truth might be concealed from whom it was not intended. Is this fair?

A. No.

B. Yes.

C. Who are we to question God?

D. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse.

Questions:

A. Could Peter not have denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed twice?

Answer here: ____________________________

B. Did Jesus make Peter deny him, or did Peter do it of his own free will?

Answer here: ____________________________

Q. Is this fair?

A. Yes.

B. No.

C. Who are we to question God?

D. I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?
I'll get back to you on this one.

I know that when I was repenting of my sins (drugs, violence, greed, etc) I also reflected back upon my family tree. I realized that even my family tree had adulterers, drunkards, fornicators, etc. So I realized how I as a sinful man who came out of a sinful family. And when I repented, I wanted to break this chain and start a lineage of righteous people. But when I was bemoaning my own sin, I started to bemoan the sinfulness of my entire family.

It seems David might have been doing the same thing. He realized how he was so sinful. He looked back and realized how his family was sinful, and how sin was even involved in his conception and birth. So sin was "in his life" from as far back as he has existed.

Here is a question.

Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying "I was born this way" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting?

True repentance requires that a person stops justifying and excusing their actions.

True repentance is when a person blames themselves for their sin, instead of blaming Adam or their mother.

Answer; thanx to Jesse Morrell

True repentance is when a person blames themselves for their sin, instead of blaming that they couldn't help it because it is their nature to do so.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Also, it is my conviction and I think it is obvious that anyone who denies the teaching that we are born sinful and naturally desire sin over God is showing a plain denial of Holy Scripture and needs to repent of such error.

I have, infact shown your errores to your conclussions.
Why do you persist in your error?

You wrote:

Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying "I was born this way" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting?

Response:

You are reading excuses into the text. This passage could just as easily be humility over the fact that he is prone to sin from birth, not an excuse.

Let's look at the whole verse.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5)

[b]I was shapen in iniquity[/b]:

This is referring to after conception; this is actual gestation.

This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb, in which both he and they were wholly passive, as the word here used is of that form; and is the amazing work of God himself, so much admired by the psalmist, Psa_139:13; and cannot design any sinfulness then infused into him by his Maker, seeing God cannot be the author of sin; but of original sin and corruption, derived to him by natural generation: and the sense is, that as soon as ever the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened, or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in him, and he was in sin, or became a sinful creature. (John Gill)

The view that David would bring up a sin of his mother twists the penitential quality of David’s confession into a blame game. “My mother did the same thing—apparently it was her example that did me in. It was her example I followed.”... instead of "Lord, I'm a wretched sinner from birth, have mercy on me."

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart; "and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate. (C.H. Spurgeon)

-------------------------

Furthermore, making David's mother into an adulterer is a huge reading into the text. The Nahash mentioned as Abigail's father may not have even been the Ammonite king (there are multiple people in this section of Scripture called Nahash, notice 2 Sam 17:27). Therefore, you are assuming this is an Ammonite king, which is logically unlikely, since that would mean a queen walked out on a king, married a shepherd and started a family, yet that king was still friendly to the family.

It would be much more likely that, since Jesse was already old in the time of Saul (1 Sam 17:12), he died and David's mother legitimately married another man named Nahash, who fathered daughters for David's mother.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying "I was born this way" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting?

You are reading excuses into the text. This passage could just as easily be humility over the fact that he is prone to sin from birth, not an excuse.

Sin nature don't make one "prone to sin" being created does.

This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the [b]confession[/b]. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath.

Tell me, if mans nature is sin, why isn't the dog and the sow condemed in verse [b]2Pe 2:22b[/b]?

[b]Logic wrote:[/b]

How/why would he be taking responsibility(confessing) for that which he was born as?
That is like saying, "I am guilty for this sin, because I am born this way, I can't help myself because it is who I am."

[b]Response:[/b] It doesn't matter if you born that way, and it doesn't matter if you can't help yourself. God is still too holy and pure to behold evil, even if it wears diapers. Your very nature at birth is obnoxious and sinful to an infinitely holy God.

Regarding, 2nd Peter 2:22 -- the dog (he who returns to sin after having heard the Gospel and professed to follow it for a time), will be condemned to hell; however, if it would be less sinful (although still damning) for them to have never heard the Gospel than to hear it, profess faith, and then shame the God of heaven by forsaking it and returning to sin.

[b]Note to all:[/b] Beware, brothers, of anyone who cries up the goodness and power of man. You are in much better company with those who proclaim the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the exceeding holiness and purity of God.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

How/why would he be taking responsibility(confessing) for that which he was born as?

[b]Response:[/b] It doesn't matter if you born that way,and it doesn't matter if you can't help yourself.

Regarding, 2nd Peter 2:22

why are we condenmned for sin if it is our very nature?

Because God is still holy and will not clear the guilty. We are both born sinful and the sins that proceed from it in our lives prove us guilty.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

why are we condenmned for sin if it is our very nature?

Because God is still holy and will not clear the guilty. We are both born sinful and the sins that proceed from it in our lives prove us guilty.

Ones nature is what one is created to do, if we are created to sin, why be condemned for it?

[b]Ones nature is what one is created to do[/b]

Not necessarily.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Ones nature is what one is created to do

Not necessarily.

Don't just say something with out explaining what your point is.

Definition of "nature" - the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature.... the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct: a man of good nature.
(From Dictionary.com)

Therefore, "nature" is not what one was "created to do". We are by nature children of wrath. That is our inherent consitution and nature since Adam's sin. Many Scriptures have been presented to you to explain this truth.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

One man sinned, many were made sinners (imputed sin). Jesus satisfied the punishment due unto His people, many are made righteous (imputed righteousness). The verse's beautiful comparison of imputed sin over against imputed righteousness makes no sense if there is no such thing as us being sinners by birth because of Adam's sin (many are made sinners).

Adam had no nature in him, as long as he was in the garden and being taken care of by God. Adam only had the breath of life in him. Adam revealed a chosen nature when he decided by a free will choice to believe Satan over God. Adam in his own mind was choosing a good thing, to be like God. Even more he thought he could be God. In that nature of choosing Satan over God, he did what God told him not to do. God did what He told Adam He would do, Adam died, in his spirit which he chose for himself, that is the spirit of Satan the liar. The same for Satan, he wanted to be not only like God, but a god. So Satan chose like Adam their own nature. Since Satan is a spirit being and Adam chose to listen to him, he became as the one whom he would serve. Now Adam had a nature, the same nature as Satan and Adam's spirit was now the spirit of Satan.

This is proven by the same, if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our spirit now is the Spirit of Christ. Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Then, the God Head being three, Christ the Son, in Spirit, The promised Holy Spirit, in our souls or the breath of life which God gave to Adam, "he became a living soul", and God the Father who in His perfect plan, killed His own perfect Son as an atonement for Adam choosing to believe Satan over God. So man, Adam chose his own nature and became a living soul with the spirit of Satan in him. God cannot be blamed for giving Adam a nature to sin, Adam chose that nature and all have died from Adam to now. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A lion cub, won't kill unless he is trained by his parents that birthed him to kill and eat to live. Unless that nature is changed the lion will always kill to eat to live, unless raised by different parents, and then who ever feeds the lion still has to be careful or someday the lions nature will even attack the new parent. God is the only one that can change that nature, "the lion will lay down with the lamb". He does this in man by birthing His own Son in the believer and man's nature is changed and man's soul must learn this or if he does not get his own way he will even turn on the One that gave him rebirth, out of his old man birth. That is why we have an advocate with the Father, and by the Holy Spirit conviction when we turn on the Parent, when we confess turning on our new Parent, we are forgiven by the Power of the Advocate and His shed Blood on a Cross in atoning for our chosen nature that raises it ugly head at times. Even the flesh will give way to the atonement and our new nature will be complete on resurrection day.
Saved by the blood of Christ in spirit, being saved in soul by the Holy Spirit and will be saved by the resurrection power of God the Father in our new bodies like the resurrected body of Jesus Christ.

God is perfect and man is not and only God's plan before the foundation of the world will change that. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: By the Son that is birthed in us.
Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Definition of "nature" - the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature.... the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct: a man of good nature.
(From Dictionary.com)

Therefore, "nature" is not what one was "created to do". We are by nature children of wrath. That is our inherent consitution and nature since Adam's sin.

The word is "φυσις" phusis - foo'-sis
growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - kind, nature.

The difference is "genesis" defines what one is, while "phusis" difines [b]who[/b] one is.
The fact that one may choose who ones self becomes or who one is, while one can not choose what one is.
What I am is a man, who I am is a husband of Loiza.

James 1:23 "a man's natural face"
A mans "genesis" face.
One cannot change his face, but one may change his position with God from wrath "by nature the children of wrath" to His favore.

It is also as when one is thirsty, one naturaly (phusis) drinks; so as if one had his conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" he naturaly is a child of wrath.

The best interpretation for Ephesians 2:3 is more like:
Among whom also we all had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were proper to the circumstances of the case, children of wrath, even as others.
or
Among whom also we all had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were of course; as would be expected, children of wrath, even as others.

proper to the circumstances of the case

Many Scriptures have been presented to you to explain this truth.

No one has prooven "sin nature" instead of the reason that men sin only because they do not love Christ.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

[color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]the many[color=990000] (all) [/color]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [in like manner of obedience] [color=990000]so shall the many[color=990000] (all) [/color]be made righteous.[/color]

It must be this way, otherwise you have universal salvation by force/involentarily.

[color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]the many[color=990000] (all) [/color]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]so shall the many[color=990000] (all) [/color]be made righteous.[/color]

One man sinned, many were made sinners (imputed sin).

Children under the age of accountability are not imputed with sin, becuase they are not accountable to the law. ([b]Rom 5:13b[/b] sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Rom 4:15)

Jesus satisfied the punishment due unto His people, many are made righteous (imputed righteousness)

The verse's beautiful comparison of imputed sin over against imputed righteousness makes no sense if there is no such thing as us being sinners by birth because of Adam's sin (many are made sinners).

Christinyou wrote:
Adam had no nature in him, as long as he was in the garden and being taken care of by God

Adam died, in his spirit which he chose for himself, that is the spirit of Satan the liar.

Adam did die spiritualy, which means he lost that special relationship with God which he had before he ate of that tree.
Adam's spirit did not die, for spirit can not die.
Or, how does one "die in his spirit"?

Adam died, in his spirit which he chose for himself

Now Adam had a nature, the same nature as Satan and Adam's spirit was now the spirit of Satan.

This is proven by the same, if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our spirit now is the Spirit of Christ.

God the Father who in His perfect plan, killed His own perfect Son as an atonement for Adam choosing to believe Satan over God.

So man, Adam chose his own nature and became a living soul with the spirit of Satan in him.

So, Adam chose his own spirit and his very own nature, huh?

[b]IF[/b] this is true, then why don't all mankind choose there own nature with there own first obediance and/or dis-obediance?

More that that, why is this the very first time I've heard anything like this?
A [b]LOT[/b] of the things you post are the first time I've ever heard them.

I Google a lot of what you say and your the only person who says these things.
Makes you go Hhhmmm???

Wouldn't you think that if what you post were common theology or common doctrine it would be heard of, and I would find what you say from more than just you?

I know your unteachable and obstinate with you weird theology/doctrines, I just hope your not a teacher in some church, for you would be a danger to young minds and those who are not yet well studied in the Scriptures.

God cannot be blamed for giving Adam a nature to sin, Adam chose that nature and all have died from Adam to now. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

God is the only one that can change that nature,

Quote:

"""Since righteous is only imputed by faith(doing something) then the quilt of sin is only imputed by sin(doing somthing)"""

Sin is only imputed by the Law. The only law Adam had was, "don't eat". When Adam chose to believe Satan's lie, that Adam would be like God, Adam chose His own nature and sin was imputed to him and he became exceedingly sinful and all do in Adam, and his spirit became the spirit of Satan. That is what separated him from God, spiritual death and also physical death, for all die in Adam. Only in Christ Jesus are any made alive.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Jesus Christ is not the Holy Spirit, It was Christ and Christ alone that hung on the Cross.

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is Christ?

In Christ: Phillip

Here are some very interesting questions to consider for those who believe that human nature is in itself sinful:

1. Is homosexuality a sin?

2. Is human nature sinful?

3. Is homosexuality human nature?

4. Is sin contrary to our sinful nature?

If homosexuality is a sin, and human nature is sinful, then how can homosexuality be contrary to human nature?

And if homosexuality is contrary to human nature, yet human nature is sinful, then aren't you saying that sin is contrary to our sinful nature? But how can sin (homosexuality) be contrary to sinful nature (human nature)?

------------------------------------------------

Homosexuality is not human nature:

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Rom. 1:26-27

The Bible says that our nature demands obedience to God:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" Romans 2:14-15

The Bible says that homosexual desire is unnatural:

"Without natural affection..." Romans 1:31

"Without natural affection..." 2 Timothy 3:3

Sin is NOT human nature. Sin is an abuse of human nature. Sin is a corruption of human nature. Sin is contrary to human nature. Sin is when a person seeks to gratify God given natural desires in an unlawful and sinful way.

Quoted from:
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell

Brother Logic I am not a Calvinist, but don’t you believe from scripture, that Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence of not knowing any evil before they disobeyed (sinned against God)?

Now don’t you believe they were different after they disobeyed, that cause them to want to cover their nakedness and also hide from God?

Don’t you believe from scripture that the life of the flesh is in the blood?

Don’t you know from scripture that God sacrificed an innocent Lamb (a type of the Lamb of God) so there would be innocent blood for the forgiveness of sins?

Brother, don’t you believe that every one of us was born tainted with Adam’s blood. That even though children are born in a state of innocence without doing any acts of sins as of yet, they still don’t have the pure innocent nature that only Adam and Eve had before their fall. We also know that God blocked them from eating of the tree of Life.

Christinyou wrote:

Since righteous is only imputed by faith(doing something) then the quilt of sin is only imputed by sin(doing somthing)

Sin is only imputed by the Law. The only law Adam had was, "don't eat". When Adam chose to believe Satan's lie, that Adam would be like God,

You give speculation like it is doctrine.

Adam chose His own nature

and he became exceedingly sinful and all do in Adam, and his spirit became the spirit of Satan.

Where does it say that he became [b]exceedingly[/b] sinful?

Where does it say that his spirit became the spirit of Satan?

That is what separated him from God

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is Christ?

rbanks wrote:
Brother Logic I am not a Calvinist, but don’t you believe from scripture, that Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence of not knowing any evil before they disobeyed (sinned against God)?

Now don’t you believe they were different after they disobeyed, that cause them to want to cover their nakedness and also hide from God?

Don’t you believe from scripture that the life of the flesh is in the blood?

Don’t you know from scripture that God sacrificed an innocent Lamb (a type of the Lamb of God) so there would be innocent blood for the forgiveness of sins?

Brother, don’t you believe that every one of us was born tainted with Adam’s blood.

That even though children are born in a state of innocence without doing any acts of sins as of yet, they still don’t have the pure innocent nature that only Adam and Eve had before their fall.

The reason that homosexuality is described as against nature is answered in the following verse (v. 27). It is against nature because women were not created for sex with women, naturally (i.e. physically). Therefore, they have left the "natural use" of women. Therefore, homosexuality is against nature.

Regarding Romans 2:14-15: conscience and nature are two different things. A lost person can be convicted of sin in his conscience and have absolutely no desire in his will/nature to repent.

Regarding your response to Ephesians 2:3... it doesn't prove your point. Look at Galatians 2:15: "We who are by nature Jews". What does this mean? Obviously, it means they were born Jews. "We are are by nature children of wrath". What does this mean? Same Greek word. It obviously means we are born children of wrath.

The bible says all came from Adam and all have sinned.

Brother Logic do you have a reason why you are so bent on trying to prove man is not born with a sin nature.

Does this help us or condemn us?

Does it make Christ sacrifice unnecessary for some in your opinion?

Because you believe man is not born with a sin nature, does this mean to you then that man should be able to live perfect without Christ being crucified?

TaylorOtwell wrote:

The reason that homosexuality is described as against nature is answered in the following verse (v. 27). It is against nature because women were not created for sex with women, naturally (i.e. physically). Therefore, they have left the "natural use" of women. Therefore, homosexuality is against nature.

Regarding Romans 2:14-15: conscience and nature are two different things. A lost person can be convicted of sin in his conscience and have absolutely no desire in his will/nature to repent.

Regarding your response to Ephesians 2:3... it doesn't prove your point. Look at Galatians 2:15: "We who are by nature Jews". What does this mean?

"We are are by nature children of wrath". What does this mean? Same Greek word. It obviously means we are born children of wrath.

rbanks wrote:
The bible says all came from Adam and all have sinned.

Brother Logic do you have a reason why you are so bent on trying to prove man is not born with a sin nature.

We are born with a Human Nature just as a tree has a plant nature.
Our human nature is to grow and bear fruit just as a plant.
What ever fruit it bears, a tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.

The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into or what ever its root is of does change it's fruit.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Does it make Christ sacrifice unnecessary for some in your opinion?

Because you believe man is not born with a sin nature, does this mean to you then that man should be able to live perfect without Christ being crucified?

Christ being crucified does not help one to live a holy life, it is the fact that they have eternal life(a relationship with Christ) which helps them to live a holy life.

26Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;

27and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

(Young's Literal Translation)

That explains what I was trying to show you. It is against nature in the sense that, naturally, a man has sexual relations with a woman because they are sexual counterparts (physically); therefore, even nature itself shows that homosexuality is sin.

Also, Christ stated that bad fruit comes from a bad tree. Good fruit comes from a good tree. However, you are saying that both fruits come from a neutral tree.

If you don't mind, can I just back up for a second and assess the situation by asking a question. What did Christ accomplish on the cross and how does a person receive forgiveness and acceptance from God?

By the way, just to examine the fruit of this doctrine you proclaim. Some of the same people who often trumpet this false teaching often complain of the shallowness and entertainment in the church. I can tell you that you can look no further than your own theology for the shallowness of modern day Christianity. If mankind isn't really born sinful and is able to choose God or choose sin of his own power, then bring on the entertainment, sensual emotional songs, ridiculous manipulation, etc... because it basically becomes an all out race to tweak people just right to get them to respond. However, those who believe that it is by God's grace that man will ever choose God, we preach the gospel of Christ and trust in God's power alone for salvation.

If I am wrong, may my charge be that I tried to give God too much glory in salvation.

I really can't devote a lot more time to this discussion, as I have quite a few other situations that need my attention. However, I feel that anyone who reads through this thread will have enough information to judge by the Scriptures what is true and what is not, by God's grace. I would also encourage you to examine your own testimony. What were the events that occurred as you came to repentance and faith? What caused those events to occur? What caused you to first listen to the Bible? What caused you to first be interested in what it had to say? If it was because you felt conviction, what caused you to first feel conviction? I think if you keep tracing back the steps, you will find yourself struggling to keep God out of your salvation.

Brother Logic,

The scriptures do not teach that God condemns the unborn. It does not teach that God condemns us for having a sin nature.

Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for our sin nature and our sins. God is just and the Justifier of all those who truly believe in Jesus.

The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for.

Quote:

I wrote:
This is proven by the same, if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our spirit now is the Spirit of Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You wrote:
It would help if you give specific Sripture that says the thing you do.
No ones spirit is the Holy Spirit.
They may be one with His Spirit, but one's spirit is never replaced by HIM.

"No ones spirit is the Holy Spirit".

I did not say the Holy Spirit is our spirit, I said the Holy Spirit is in our soul-mind, that is where He works. Where did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would work? In the Mind, which is where we have our cognitive understanding of knowing we are saved by the Christ that is in us. That the Holy Spirit is teaching us these things that Christ could not give us until The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

1 John 5:1-4 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Assurance of the witness in ourselves:

1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We all are still dead to God without the Life of the Son in us.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who liveth in us?

1 John 5:12 He that hath (((in possession of, possessed by, conceived by, for uncircumcision use, added from Strongs;))) the Son hath (((same word))) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I said we have the Spirit of Christ in us, the spirit of Satan out, the Spirit of Christ in at our rebirth, that is our "born again", experience. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Our spirit, before Christ in us:

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

The same lie and attention given to lusteth to be God. Satan envies God and lusts to be God and so do all in Adam who Satan wants to destroy because they are Gods', and Adam with Satan, who agreed by eating of the tree of good and evil.

No deception, just plain choosing evil over good and have the knowledge of it. Adam sinned, Eve was deceived. God has not dealt with mankind through Eve, but through the first Adam unto death and the second Adam unto life. Plain and simple, all who die are in Adam, all who live are in Christ Jesus by His Spirit that is now in the children of God, son's of God by the birthing of the only Begotten Son in us, born again in them. New Spirit, and new Mind and will be new Body.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

"""The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for."""

rbanks, You are so right on. Christ died for the sin, Adam's sin, of the world. We or no one else will ever be guilty for the sin of similitude of Adam. Only our own sins are we guilty of now. In these sins of the flesh, and no one can say they have no sin, we have an advocate with the Father for these sins.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Our Advocate is Christ and the Blood of the Cross.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The "s" should not be on the "sin(s) of the whole world, it is not in the original. The sin that plunged the whole world into sin was Adam's sin. That sin was completely taken care of at the Cross and we that are Christs', Now He is our advocate for the sins of the flesh that we commit and His Cross also took care of all our sins, if we confess and agree with God that sin is an offense to our Holy and loving Father. It is the Holy Spirits work to convict the whole world of these sins and give us repentance unto confession, where God is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness because of the elects sake and the Cross of Christ.

Romans 5:14-21 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

rbanks wrote:
Brother Logic,

The scriptures do not teach that God condemns the unborn. It does not teach that God condemns us for having a sin nature.

Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for our sin nature and our sins.

God is just and the Justifier of all those who truly believe in Jesus.

The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

That explains what I was trying to show you. It is against nature in the sense that, naturally, a man has sexual relations with a woman because they are sexual counterparts (physically); therefore, even nature itself shows that homosexuality is sin.

Mankind is created to have fruit unto rightousness, not unto sin.

Mankind naturally has fruit according to what they are grafted into( man and plants).
[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own roots, which is of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.
If we are selfish, then we will do that which we love &/or that which we choose to put our effections on.

The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.
However, one is able to do that which one does not want to do, or do opposite what ones effections are towards.

Also, Christ stated that bad fruit comes from a bad tree. Good fruit comes from a good tree. However, you are saying that both fruits come from a neutral tree

If you don't mind, can I just back up for a second and assess the situation by asking a question. What did Christ accomplish on the cross?

And how does a person receive forgiveness and acceptance from God?

By the way, just to examine the fruit of this doctrine you proclaim. Some of the same people who often trumpet this false teaching often complain of the shallowness and entertainment in the church.

Second, I've never herd anybody with a "specific" doctrine complain of the shallowness and entertainment in the church.

I can tell you that you can look no further than your own theology for the shallowness of modern day Christianity.

Do you know what an Ad Hominem is?

I could say that a lot of people who are replacement theologists hold your doctrinal theory.
However, since we don't need to go on with this way of reasonng, lets get on with the subject at hand.

However, those who believe that it is by God's grace that man will ever choose God, we preach the gospel of Christ and trust in God's power alone for salvation.

Are you saying that God does not give all mankind grace to be saved?
Are you saying that God does not give all mankind the ability to do that which HE comands?

If I am wrong, may my charge be that I tried to give God too much glory in salvation.

What glory is it having God not giving the opportunity of salvation to all creation(freeing them from what He hates/letting them do what HE comands them to do), making Him partial(choosing to save arbitrarily)?

What glory is it imparting sin to those who have not yet sinned(the unborn & children under the age of accountability) all because of Adam?

Logic said,
---
"With your doctrine of "imputed sin" God must condemn the unborn & the infants because they are guilty of Adam's sin. If they are guilty, then God must condemn them."
---

You are mistaken. Guilt does not require God's condemnation of a person, providing an atonement was made for the one who is guilty.

I agree, when God condemns someone it is because they are a sinner. Do we not realize that all born of Adam are "by nature children of wrath"; [Eph 2] that is, their nature is itself sinful and exudes sin without their conscious participation in it.

Scripture is silent about whether or not God holds undeveloped sinners accountable for their natural disposition to sin. I am of the persuasion that He can if He chooses to, and this would be just.

However, God may elect to grace anyone that He chooses, including the unborn and those with undeveloped consciences, such as infants and retarded people. King David's child is one example, and the indwelling of John the Baptist sheds light on God's ability to, on occasion, regenerate the unborn. The prenatal indwelling of John also demonstrates that regeneration operates on a level deeper than the will, as John had no developed will with which to assent to the transformation. Regeneration alters the nature from which the will flows.

If God has determined to regenerate the guilty souls of ones who die in infancy, He may do so through the merits of Christ's atonement. If you say that the atonement is appropriated by faith, and babies cannot have faith, I will say, no man is saved apart from faith and David's baby was saved. I do not grasp it, but I do appreciate it.

theopenlife wrote:

With your doctrine of "imputed sin" God must condemn the unborn & the infants because they are guilty of Adam's sin. If they are guilty, then God must condemn them.

You are mistaken. Guilt does not require God's condemnation of a person, providing an atonement was made for the one who is guilty.

But, since the unborn do not need to be saved, the need not faith.

I agree, when God condemns someone it is because they are a sinner.

All men are only condemned or justified by God in the New Testament for their rejection or accepting of Christ and in the Old Testament They were only condemned or justified by God for their unbelief and disobedience or belief and obedience to HIM. (See Romans & 1:18-20, 2:14, 15)
[b]Galatians 3:6[/b] [color=990000]
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/color]
[b]Job 19:25[/b] [color=990000]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:[/color]
And also for the non-Jews
[b]Jonah 3:5[/b] [color=990000]So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.[/color]
Their fast was the obedience.
Before the flood they all believed for it was plain to all since Adam would have been alive with them, or he would have been known for his fame of being the first man ever created.

Furthermore, He does not condemn for being a sinner, for you still call yourself a sinner.

Do we not realize that all born of Adam are "by nature children of wrath"; [Eph 2] that is, their nature is itself sinful and exudes sin without their conscious participation in it.

Furthermore, it does not say that we are "born children of wrath". It says that we are children of wrath because we all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind.

Scripture is silent about whether or not God holds undeveloped sinners accountable for their natural disposition to sin.

The only reason that one would have a "disposition to sin"(disposition to bear bad fruit) is because they have no relationship with Christ(eternal life), not because of sin nature. Haven't you been reading what I say?

I am of the persuasion that He can if He chooses to,

and this would be just.

However, God may elect to grace anyone that He chooses, including the unborn and those with undeveloped consciences, such as infants and retarded people.

The prenatal indwelling of John also demonstrates that regeneration operates on a level deeper than the will, as John had no developed will with which to assent to the transformation.

The reason the John the baptizer could have the Holy Spirit is because all the unborn are inoccent, with out sin, without "sin nature".

Regeneration alters the nature from which the will flows.

If God has determined to regenerate the guilty souls of ones who die in infancy, He may do so through the merits of Christ's atonement.

If you say that the atonement is appropriated by faith, and babies cannot have faith, I will say, no man is saved apart from faith and [b]David's baby was saved[/b]

I do not grasp it, but I do appreciate it.

This whole post has no relivenc to this thread at all, unless you are implying that I am putting forth "false teaching".
What ever I post will not damn anybody.

wisevirgin wrote:
Everything that comes out of Satan’s mouth is a lie. Even the truth becomes a lie when it comes from Satan’s mouth.

As was displayed in his use of Scripture in Matthew 4 against our Lord, it’s just his way of getting you to think what he wants you to think.

Satan twisted the Scriptur to get his own way, he left a portion out.

The issue of salvation is a battle between grace and works. All false gospels promote the works of man in some way. The most deceptive ones talk much of grace, but it is the satanic seed of works which pollutes the whole and makes it an unfit meal.

These are not "works" contrary to salvation, however thay are mans part in the relationship with GOD.
Salvation is a relationship, relationships are always two way.

The writer says in Ephesians 2 that ye are saved by grace…[b]not by works[/b]).

Recognize that any gospel brought before you which states that any part of salvation, getting saved, being saved or staying saved, is dependant upon a man and what he does or does not do, is a gospel which contains false doctrines, false teachings, and therefore cannot be God’s Gospel.

Therefore no one can rightly be said to be in a saved state,

wisevirgin wrote:

This whole post has no relivenc to this thread at all, unless you are implying that I am putting forth "false teaching".

John 9:41 "...If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I and many others here on SI have shown your teachings to be damnable heresy.

Statement of faith
What ever God says is true. Whatever God said, He said it all in Jesus; Jesus is God. Jesus is the Word and the Bible is what we call the Word.

To understand how the sacrifice of Jesus(atonement) satisfies God, we must know what God says. God uses His law of death on the account of sin to implement the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God says, in [b]Romans 6:23[/b] "for the wages of sin is [spiritual] death, but the gift of God is eternal (spiritual) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
and,
[b]Deut.21:23[/b] "His body shall not remain overnight on the tree (cross), but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who hangs on a tree is accursed of God."

Jesus was taken off the cross that same day He died so the curse of sin would stay on Him. [b]Lev.17:11[/b] "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the alter to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

[b]Heb. 9:22[/b] "for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin"

When Jesus finished all that needed to done(accomplish on the cross):
1: Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
(a) For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).
2: Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin(braking the law)(Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
(a) purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

After Jesus accomplish these on the cross, God accepted His sacrifice. In verification of Gods' acceptance, He raised Jesus from the dead.

The resurrection is the basis of our Faith [b]1Cr 15:14[/b] and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

God lets there be a proxy (replacement for you & I) to take the judgment, but the proxy must not be guilty like the one accused or he would be taking the judgment for himself and not for us.

Jesus is sinless through out HIS life; therefore He can take our place of judgment.
He died on the cross, or we may call it a tree because it is made of wood, to take the judgment of our sin and the curse of the law.
[b]Gal.3:10[/b] for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.
[b]Gal.3:13[/b] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Remember that no one can ever keep the law consistantly. If someone could keep the Law of God consistantly, there would be no reason for him to take Jesus as his savior.

In the Hebrew mind faith and faithfulness are the same thing. Faithfulness is loyalty and obedience. Faith is toward GOD. [b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

In other words faith is substantial evidence of our hope, a right response to God. This hope is not a wish but a knowledge in which we await.

This next verse tells us Who our hope is in, [b]1Tim 1:1[/b] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is [b]our hope[/b].

Therefore our hope is not a wish but a certainty. So then, we never guess on God. You might ask, "How do we know God's will?" We know it by the WORD of GOD, godly council (in a multitude of council there is much wisdom) and understanding of who GOD is and how HE works. [b]Prov.3:5,6[/b]. Lean not to your own understanding, but trust in God with all your heart. Acknowledge HIM in all your ways and HE will direct the path that you take. God will give us wisdom liberally

It is known that Faith with out works is dead but what are works? Works are the a right response to God, works are the fruit of righteousness. In other words, a changed mind and life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do.

But if you don't work for your salvation to earn it, then how is faith dead without works?

In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in you.

In other words, you don't work to get a job; you work because you have a job. You don't work to be saved; you work because you are saved.

There is also works of the law. [b]Gal.3:10[/b], "for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
No one without Eternal Life ever keeps the law consistently.

Those who are saved are not under law but grace, but that does not mean that we are to be lawless. We are still under the law of Christ which is love, Gal 6:2 and that would be the spirit of the law. Jesus is the law.

Salvation is not a thing, but a relationship with God that only comes through Christ.
God sent His Son to the Earth (as 100% man while remaining 100% God) for all mankind to be able to have eternal lif(that relationship with God)[b]Rom 5:6[/b]

Jesus came in the same flesh as we have which is able to sin(Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7-8)
Jesus did not sin, [b]not[/b] because He was God, but because He love His Father.

Tell me, what parts are damnable?

I believe the only true basis of Christian fellowship is Christ's Agape love, which is greater than any differences we possess and without which we have no right to claim ourselves Christians.
I believe worship of God should be spiritual. Therefore, we remain flexible and yielded to the leading of the Holy Spirit to direct our worship.
I believe worship of God should be inspirational. Therefore, we give great place to music in our worship.
I believe worship of God should be intelligent. Therefore, our services are designed with great emphasis upon the teaching of the Word of God that He might instruct us how He should be worshipped.
I believe worship of God should be fruitful. Therefore, we look for His love in our lives as the supreme manifestation that we have truly been worshipping Him.
I believe in all the basic doctrines of historic Christianity.
I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, that the Bible, Old and New Testaments are the inspired, infallible Word of God.
I believe that God is eternally existent in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe that God is the personal, transcendent, and sovereign Creator of all things.
I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, that He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, provided for the atonement of our sins by His substitutionary death on the cross, was bodily raised from the dead, ascended back to the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us.
Ibelieve in the personal, visible, and pre-millennial second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth. He will return with His saints and set up a kingdom of which there will be no end.
After Jesus ascended to Heaven, He poured out His Holy Spirit on the believers in Jerusalem, enabling them to fulfill His command to preach the Gospel to the entire world, an obligation shared by all believers today.
I believe that all people are, by nature, separated from God and responsible for their own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of God, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Scriptures, and that they are valid for today if they are exercised within the scriptural guidelines. We as believers are to covet the best gifts, seeking to exercise them in love that the whole Body of Christ might be edified. We believe that love is more important than the most spectacular gifts, and without this love all exercise of spiritual gifts is worthless.

I believe worship of God should be intelligent. Therefore, our services to HIM are to be with great emphasis upon Prayer and the teaching of the Word of God that He might save.

I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature" but, we are in weakness, natural, earthy, and have a living soul(Corinth 15:42-45) that needs to be spiritualy united with Christ.
From our first accountable sin we became spiritualy separated from God and responsible for our own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice on His cross and acknowlage His resurection, trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of God, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

Tell me, what parts are damnable?

Logic wrote:
I believe that people are not born with a "sin nature" but, we are in weakness, natural, earthy, and have a living soul(Corinth 15:42-45) that needs to be spiritualy united with Christ.
From our first accountable sin we became spiritualy separated from God and responsible for our own sin, but that salvation, redemption, and forgiveness are freely offered to all by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. When a person repents of sin and accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice on His cross and acknowlage His resurection, trusting Him to save, that person is immediately born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, all his/her sins are forgiven, and that person becomes a child of God, destined to spend eternity with the Lord.

Tell me, what parts are damnable?

Brother Logic now don't confuse me with the other posts written. If you want to know what I have written then look at my posts (-rbanks).

The part my brother that is misleading to me, is that many people understand sin and sins different then you do.

Are you disagreeing with many Holy Ghost filled men before you?

What is your understanding of sin as a principle and sins as actions?

wisevirgin wrote:
In other threads as well as this you've attempted to poison the minds of the little flock with another gospel. You have perverted the pure Gospel of God and His Grace in the LORD Jesus Christ.

Many witnesses have been brought against you to bear testimony against the posts here on SI where you've consisently defended yourself

IOW, God doen't have to make sense because we can not understand HIS mind anyway.

and your graceless doctrines which you claim have God as their author.

Your caims are baseless, bottomless, groundless, idle, unfounded, unwarranted

You are basing your argument on that your view is the only one which is true.

Not only in this have you sinned and continue to do so, but you have derided and calumniated both the mature in the faith and those who are young believers.

I may have scolded one, though, for his "cultic" fary tales which he call christian doctrine.

I stand upon the Word of God;

"A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:10,11)

You falsly accuse me of something which I am not.

rbanks wrote:
The part my brother that is misleading to me, is that many people understand sin and sins different then you do.

Are you disagreeing with many Holy Ghost filled men before you?

Many Holy Ghost filled men before me are not well known because of the scorn that comes with it.
They are eather thrown out as a heritic or labeled as an unlearn novice of the Scriptures who is not worth listening to.

What is your understanding of sin as a principle and sins as actions?

Any of these in action is sin.
Sin is not anything else.

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Brother Logic this is just one passage of scripture that shows in Rom 5:12 that sin entered the world by one man(Adam)and because of this, death has passed on all men for it says all have sinned. We all came from Adam.

The gift by grace has also come to all men by one man(Jesus).

The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is to redeem Adam's race if only they will repent and believe in Him.

If Adam had not sinned and no one had sinned after Adam then Jesus would not have had to died on the cross for our redemption.

When you say that man doesn't have a nature bent toward sin because of Adam, then you are actually saying that God created us with a nature that is to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning.

This is saying that God brought sin into the world because he gave us a nature too weak to keep from sinning, instead of Adam being tempted and disobeying and brought sin into the world to eveyone because they came from his loins.

I want to rightly divide the word of truth and not blame God who gave Adam a perfect nature before he sinned. After he sinned he was ashamed, juilty, and polluted.

He polluted the world with sin not God by giving us a weak nature.

coley wrote:

ROMANS 7
When we were controlled by our

OLD NATURE, SINFUL DESIRES WERE AT WORK WITHIN US,

and the law [b]aroused[/b] these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

The usual modern translation of Romans 7:5 which suggests that sin is [b]“aroused”[/b] by the law is seriously misleading. It is clearly at odds with the context which demonstrates that apart from law sin does not and cannot exist.

To better interpat Romans 7:5 is [color=990000]5 When we were in the flesh[/color] (not walking after the Spirit)[color=990000], our sympathy for our unlawful effections animated our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/color]

Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for

I AM ALL TOO HUMAN, A SLAVE TO SIN.

15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18 AND I KNOW THAT NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN ME, THAT IS, IN MY SINFUL NATURE.

15 [color=990000]I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.[/color]
James 1:8

16 [color=990000]But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.[/color]

17 [color=990000]So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.[/color]
Romans 7:5&20

18 [color=990000]I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good[/color](wiling to have the right effections)[color=990000], but, I don't know how to do it.[/color]

There is nothing about "sin nature in Romans 7.

Romans 5
Adam and Christ Contrasted
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

The way to interpret Romans 5:12 is:
"Just as the first transgression introduced sin into the world by Adam...
so (physical) death (came into the world) through (that) sin...
and so (physical) death spread to all men because all sinned (so far, and mankind will continue to sin from then on)"

''just as by''
''so so by''
This is a comparison of the two.

[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [in like manner of obedience] [color=990000]so shall the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]be made righteous.[/color]

It must be this way, otherwise you have universal salvation by force/involentarily.

[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]so shall the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]be made righteous.[/color]

[b]Rom 5:20[/b] [color=990000]Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [/color]
Because the evidence of the offence is so very great in contrast to the law

[b]Rom 5:21[/b] [color=990000]That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.[/color]
Sin reign in those who are spiritualy dead because of the flesh is reigning

How does the Law arouse sinful desires?

The old story, if you are walking by a white fence with a hole in it, you walk by the fence all the time and one day next to the hole in the fence there is a message written on a sign next to the hole, it reads, don't look through this hole, which is a law, what is the first thing we want to do? Look through the hole of course.

We have seen the hole all the time and there was a pretty girl behind the fence, and we could see her everyday and we wanted to see her and had thoughts about her. Now came the Law, don't look through this hole. Now we know what we are doing is wrong. But we still want to look through the hole because it made our flesh feel good. But now we know not to covet our neighbors wife. So the law aroused wrong doing (sin) in me. Now that I know the law, I don't want to do it, but what I don't want to do, which is now sin to me, I do. So I know what to do, but don't do it, to me that is sin. So it is now that sin in me that is doing it and making me evil, that is the deception of sin, which the Law reveals in me, the same lie of Satan who was our father before the Cross of Christ. It is no longer the I that don't want to do it, but the evil flesh I that dwells in me because of the Law, sin in me that does it. How are we set free from this delima? Christ Jesus in me.

Romans 7:7-25 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic,

I remind you brother that the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love. Your orthodoxy ( and others ) is big enough to kill, your doxology appears in your posts too small to live. I do the same and worse, so please don't feel the need to defend by coming after me.

rbanks wrote:
I want to rightly divide the word of truth and not blame God who gave Adam a perfect nature before he sinned. After he sinned he was ashamed, juilty, and polluted

The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is to redeem Adam's race if only they will repent and believe in Him.

This is ridiculous, for that would make God, first, partial for arbitrarily choosing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Then it would have God being guilty of the faithlessness and unrepentance of the whole world, because HE did't give them.
It would also have God angry with those He didn't gift just because He didn't want to gift them.

When you say that man doesn't have a nature bent toward sin because of Adam, then you are actually saying that God created us with a nature that is to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning.
This is saying that God brought sin into the world because he gave us a nature too weak to keep from sinning, instead of Adam being tempted and disobeying and brought sin into the world to eveyone because they came from his loins.

Furthermore, it is not the "nature" which is "to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning."

None of that which God created us with makes us, at all, "to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning."
For Jesus was in all things, made like unto his brethren, for he himself also is beset with weakness.(Heb 2:17,5:2)+(Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7-8,)
However, He remained sinless, not because HE was God, even though HE was.
Therefore, God expects all mankind to never sin, because all mankind is able to never sin.

If not, then our standard is unjustly to high.
If Jesus remained sinnless only because He was God, then we would not be expected to remain sinless. We would not be juged for sin because we can not remain sinnless, we must sin, we can not help but to sin...ect...

If the only reason that Adam could have remained sinnless is becuse he was in a diferent "state" than we are now, then God would [b]not[/b] expect us to remain sinless now, for we now have a "sin nature", we have a predisposition to sin, we are not in that same "state as Adam was when he could have not sinned. Therefore, God, would not expect us to remain sinless. We would not be juged for sin, because we can not remain sinnless, we must sin, we can not help but to sin...ect...

I also say that God created man with flesh that is weak.
Even Adam was born with the same "weak" flesh as we have today.
I will show you again as I posted before:
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh as with the rest of us:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]

[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

God created the flesh as weak for the purpose of making man dependant on HIM. Otherwise man would not see a need for HIM.
The flesh was never meant to be eternal or live forever, becase that which is made with hands is not eternal.

Jesus was talking about His body in this verse:
[b]Mar 14:58a[/b] [color=990000]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands...[/color]

However, we wait for a body that is not made with hands:
[b]2Corinth 5:1[/b][color=990000]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens[/color]
This is the body which was meant to live for ever/eternally.

Therefore, the flesh [b]is[/b] weak, but the spirit is ready & willing(Mat 26:41, Mark 14:38 ).

With all this, remember my other posts, because all my posts tie in to each other.

Christinyou wrote:
How does the Law arouse sinful desires?

whyme wrote:

our orthodoxy ( and others ) is big enough to kill, your doxology appears in your posts too small to live. I do the same and worse,

Brother Logic,

Thanks for responding to my posts, as you can see I have only been asking you questions, for I have not accused you of being a heretic.

I believe also with you that God desires to save everyone if they would only believe in the sacrifice of His Son for them.

I also believe that God does not impute sin to infants or condemn infants who are born in a state of innocence.

I also believe that man was not created to live independent of God but He is to be dependent on God for his life, and to love and fellowship with Him. This is the only way for man not to sin.

I also believe that God created man in a state lower than the angels first, for his development, growth, and maturity in his relationship with God so that he would overcome Sin and Satan that would cause him to be separated from God. God wants man to have a loving relationship with Him with a free will, knowing also the danger of a free will, can also cause man to sin. Also after Adam sinned, God blocked the way to the tree of Life so that He could redeem man from sin.

As I stated before I am not a Calvinist, (no offence to anybody who wants to claims they are), I just believe that God has given everybody a free will and the same responsibility to repent & believe in Jesus Christ.

I find it hard to believe that certain ones were predestined before the foundation of the world to eternal life and the rest were condemn because that’s just the way God decided to do it, then one can only hope for their sake they are one of the fortunate ones, but I just don’t know how it makes them feel if they were to imagine that they or anyone else are not one of the fortunate one’s.

I believe the bible states that everybody was given a free will to obey God or not to obey. We know that, because man chose to sin, his will is brought into bondage.

The gospel of grace is to be preached to everyone, because all have sinned, with the opportunity of salvation. The Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict all of sin. The grace of God is available for all, but is only truly given to those who truly believe. The Holy Spirit draws the believer to Christ and the truth will make them free indeed if they continue in the Word.

Logic, I didn’t bring out a lot of details here but are you in basic agreement with what I have written in this post.

Just seeing what we do agree on. Thanks!