wta,
One of the things about this forum is the give and take, the ability to consider and reconsider. It also suggests further research if you want to call it that, there was a suggestion to do a search on this forum that would be helpful ...
Ah, but dear brother you cannot in turn do that very thing and then dismiss yourself from it now can you? You are certainly free to walk away from it, but don't let legitimate concerns from your own brethren leave you with a bitterness because they put matters to the test.
And we are to believe you ... because you said so? Brother, there is good reason for the concerns that many of us have and why I mentioned the search. You have to watch for the accusations that you assume and return fire over. There are many things within the following that are disturbing, much in his own words. If you choose to either ignore it or remain silent, that is your prerogative, but just remember that it is your own contributions to defend that makes the association.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5952&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan Conference Video from May, 2005[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9258&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11769&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]David Hogan - 350 raised from the dead[/url]
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Documentation seems to be that which cannot be denied. I think we are always going to have a large problem with this no matter how it is attempted. On the one hand there is an expectation that is to be met with skepticism from unbelievers and in this day, believers alike. Who can fault them? It is really no different than a court of law, [i]the preponderance of the evidence[/i]. The easiest is just documentation. A death certificate would suffice and a live interview afterward would seem to be enough. Or perhaps a cemetery visit where the earth has been thrust upward from the downside, forensics would make this quite plain. How about something akin to a Sasquatch sighting? You know, the grainy film footage that has been going around for years, we have video of everything under the sun these days, camera phones and the like, with all the reports somebody must have caught this on tape somewhere ...
Am pushing this to make a point. These claims are not as difficult to prove as they are to easily suspect. The difficulty again is that for believers we need not be taken up with so much surprise. We believe the reports in the scriptures and we believe Jesus Himself was raised from the dead. We also believe Paul's reports ([i]Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?[/i] Act 26:8) and just what gives us any real reason to believe them?
Credibility has to be one of the first and foremost. For us, we are in essence believing 'here-say', that is, reporting after the fact. Careful what derivative I am drawing off of that term, I mean only 'report'. A good instance in scripture is;
[i]And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen[/i] 1Co 15:4-6
In other words, there are more witness's, go verify if you must or are in need of further evidence, they are still alive. But again, this is still 'report' of witnessing actual events. How can we trust any of it?
Character and credibility. Lawyers are masters at this and just as well often spurious with the truth to pragmatic ends. But this is the rigorous examination of what makes up a persons 'believability' and why they must do some serious poking around to find out just how trustworthy statements are, how they compare with other collaborative evidence, actual or testimonial. If the person is a known thief his credibility is going to be rightly suspect. If he has lied in the past his track record is marred. Rightly so.
This may seem completely obvious but I must wonder at a number of things that this all shows about us, about Christianity in this day and about unbelievers in general.
Paul West further pressed the point;
[i]unbelievers en masse[/i].
Do note the emphasis on [i]unbelievers[/i]. This is where we should be hearing it from if so many of these claims are true, they are the ones who should be [i]astonished[/i] more so than we. Think about it. What this days Christian is ultimately exemplifying is an exposure of their unbelief by way of their over exuberance, it's as if to say "[i]Can you believe it?[/i]". In fact is that not precisely what it is? "[i]We really never believed it in the first place."[/i]? If some of us were more honest. Or at least our faith is more based on [i]hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[/i] and contrary to [i]be not faithless, but believing, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.[/i]
[i]For we walk by faith, not by sight[/i]
Some excitement and joy, thankfulness and praise would be a matter of course, [i]of course[/i]. Earlier I had mentioned in regards to this incident the word 'phenominal' and later wondered if I hadn't contradicted myself. To the mother and father of this child it would certainly be phenomenal wouldn't it? At once dead and now alive. My great issue and problem with all this is really not even a matter of 'believability' or not, it's what is done to it and with it ...
Boasting. For one thing there is something very ... churlish and deflating, crass and despicable to be treating this in the manner that it is treated. If it was me and my son or daughter I would like to imagine that my disposition would be one more of awe and reverence, coupled with joy and ... humbleness of spirit. If that all sounds too pious and righteous I am really trying to get at something else. There is a confidence and sweetness, a contentment when the Holy Spirit steals over oneself, where is room for boasting? And where does anyone get the audacity to treat someone else's profound moment as if it is fodder for their 'ministry' and that which can be tossed about like a football? The last person or people I would be giving any testimony to would be those that would show such disregard and disrespect to such a profundity. Granted, keeping it out of the hands of others might prove impossible but certainly the effort to keep it quiet I would be more inclined to, it is the mode and manner of this day that I fear in it's extremities. The trustworthy, those that have some control over their impulses ... that could keep matters to themselves ... we just have to just spew anything without thought so often.
Defending. The other great oxymoron. We have it predominantly with our 'prophets' of the hour and in many other attributes. The more the defending, the more the doubting, the less the credibility. I will show my bias here, but I have a much easier time believing Zac Poonen if he was to report someone being raised from the dead than the loud, obnoxious, defending sorts of either the men or their followers who have so little evidence (character and credibility) and often so many flamboyant, exaggerated claims, flat out lies or ...
[i]Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, [/i] Col 2:18
"Puffed up" by his fleshly mind. Let's face it, it's hard to hear, but even the sincere can be swayed, none of us are exempted from the tricks of the gray matter or the devil. Will get to that, this matter of possibility of the devil raising the dead. Just one more thing. When it comes right down to it, this whole realm of miraculous matters really can fall into the "I don't know" section of the brain storage for all I care and I am not bothered by it, why do I need to come to some conclusion over matters that I am not privy to in the first place? But beyond that just what is it that we think we are proving? Wouldn't it be more astonishing to the unbelievers amongst us to see something like this and then wonder at the saints for their very [i]lack[/i] of astonishment? That to them (us), this is all just a matter of course, that they really did believe it all along, that we were what we say; "Believers"? Not surprised, not at all, just normative, everyday Christianity where possibilities abound, ([i]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.[/i]) Remember even the Lords own words to Nathanael after a real disclosure of what He knew of him;
[i]Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.[/i]
The last of the last things ... People do lose their heart beats for awhile and then revive, it happens. That in this case as it was reported the Lords Name was ... invoked, hate to use that word here, is not what I am appealing to, I am to be honest, more inclined to believe that it happened as was described and praise God for it. But I don't know one way or the other for certain. That it might have happened in the midst of the goings on there ... neither proves nor disapproves anything, it still comes back not to the people in question but to those making fanfare of it all and all the other unsubstantiated claims, tossed around like so much tabloid material that will be forgotten in short order.
When my mother died just a little over a year ago and just minutes before I had arrived, I prayed once again to the Lord that He would return life back into her body, if it was His will to do so. And the honesty of that moment was as sincere as I could have ever been. It was a very strange and sweet time in those minutes that followed. I understood, was content and still mournful. What death was, why it had to come, why it will come to us all. There was a sense, not of doubting, but that my request would be denied, I knew it while the words were still forming in my mind. There was no pining away and no beating of the breast over it, my sense was that of [i]the Lord has need of her[/i]. I was to be honest in those moments even a bit jealous, no more striving, no more sin, no more confusion of this mad world.
Just as well have had my own 'near death' experience, part of the whole testimony if you will. I can tell of what happened precisely and know without a doubt just how close I truly was to the end of life on this earth. Just moments away. The Lord had mercy on me, heard my cry and stopped the whole proceeding. It literally and figuratively and most importantly filled me with so much fear, so much true regard for what had happened that it changed my life in actuality. At least for a good many years afterwords. And I couldn't care less what is made of it in the minds of the hearers. It happened.
All this just to express my indignation, my sadness, my ire if you will at the way things, life and death matters are treated in these sort of constructs. This is series business. Life and death. True conversion in the core of the human being. Eternal matters, especially at the very door of them ... Too make light, to make sport, to cheapen and be careless, flippant, crass ...
Can the devil raise the dead? It may be a real good question after all, but with a caution. Is it possible, is there any warrant for such a thing? Would he? After all, getting us (humans) dead and out of the way seems part and parcel ...
[i]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/i] Joh 8:44
A liar and a murderer, guess it comes back to that whole issue of credibility doesn't it? But capacity wise, permission wise ... This comes to mind regarding Job;
[i]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.[/i] Job 2:6
Meaning he could have, with permission it appears, gone so far as to have caused Job's death. But to raise it ... the scriptures seem very silent. Other than the masquerading that we know of, as an angel of light, I don't think I would want to go there with any of this and that means even giving the impression that something like Lakeland and the happenings there, with all our concerns notwithstanding ... attributing one way or the other, sincerely or not, the "how's" and "why's", or even "who", it may lead to a lot of speculation, but I do not know that it is very beneficial.
From what I can gather from scripture as a whole, in principle and in precedent, very unlikely. Let's just not use it as 'proving' ground, even if that is the farthest of intent, it can to lead to that.
