Saints,
I've written a review of Todd Bentley's recent visit to the University of North Texas. Here's the link:
http://informedevangelist.blogspot.com/2008/07/and-false-teacher-of-year-award-goes-to.html
Blessings,
Jon
Lawevangelis said in your article the following and I quote:
"I don’t recall the Lord Jesus giving His followers disclaimers when He healed them. Folks, face it. This stuff is not real."
However the Word of God declares the following: Joh 5:14 After this Jesus found him in the temple complex and said to him, "See, you are well. Do not sin any more, so that something worse doesn't happen to you."
Here's a note worthy principle found in the Word of God Mat 12:43 "When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, but doesn't find any.
Mat 12:44 Then it says, 'I'll go back to my house that I came from.' And when it arrives, it finds the house vacant, swept, and put in order.
Mat 12:45 Then off it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and settle down there. As a result, that man's last condition is worse than the first. That's how it will also be with this evil generation."
Now I'm not a Bently fan but having read your commentary you went to that meeting to find fault and look for error. So you went with a preconcieved notion to aim your spiritual cannons and fire. Your personal bias is from begining to end. Poor reporting! You would have been better off to have published the sermon word for word and allow others to come to thier own conclusions but instead you have discredited something which may or may not be of God. In the process you have neglected your personal grasp on the Word of God, as noted above. You seem to be educated, however so were the pharisee s. You may want to go back to your professors and ask them for some of the finer points to reporting unbiased reports, unless of course your intention was never to report anything except what you had already in your heart to report, than of course all you needed was the sufficient amount of expected verbage to add your fire to.
Well done brother.
Have had that closing verse in mind in regards to this whole matter lately, more the former;
[i]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, [b]have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
There is the answer to the question of how any of these things can be accomplished in the midst of this freak show as you so perfectly described it.
Praying for more spine amongst even those who ought to know better ... before it's too late.
This article does nothing to further the kingdom or promote any sort of positive insight, you simply bash and make fun of him and others there for a few grueling paragraphs. You even make fun of the worship :( Honestly this is written in total hostility, I am totally cool with people giving their insights about Todd and Lakeland in an intelligent and mature way, but this reads like a secular celeb. bashing magazine or something.
Even if you wrote about something other than Lakeland I'd say the same thing...and yes, you are obviously completely biased in everyway about it.
Please stop filling the internet with worthless material and write something that will point someone to Jesus or something, thanks but no thanks.
Lotis,
You can't describe what happens at Lakeland (or wherever Bentley takes his show) as "worship" by even a loose definition of the word. Jesus said that worship involves "spirit AND truth". I'll give them the benefit of a doubt and grant "spirit", but "truth" is a victim at a Bentley crusade.
Dohzman,
You have GOT to be kidding. I'm not republishing Bentley's tripe "word for word" any more than I would consider reporting any false prophet's sermons word for word for the sake of "fairness." I'm not into promoting false doctrine.
Yes, it's a newsflash...I'm biased. I went with a bias. Absolutely. Actually, my main goal was to witness to those who attended. After I heard the message, I was glad that I did. Somebody in that arena needed to share the truth. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Sermon Index is about revival. Bentley's ridiculous claims that what's happening at Lakeland is "revival" is foolishness. There's no repentance there. No contrition over sin. No exaltation of Christ. How can it be a revival? Because everyone is excited?
BTW, the text you quote from Matthew on demons has nothing to do with healing.
Jon
"You may want to go back to your professors and ask them for some of the finer points to reporting unbiased reports, unless of course your intention was never to report anything except what you had already in your heart to report, than of course all you needed was the sufficient amount of expected verbage to add your fire to". dohzman
If this were an assignment for a class in SECULAR journalism I would agree. But Jon has a right to give his opinion in a report regardless of your subjective standard of how he should give it. If you want to bring up secular institutional reporting by telling Jon to go back to his professors dohzman then let's sum it up this way.. YOU WERE LOOKING FOR A NEWS REPORT....but Jon decided to give us AN OP-ED PIECE. That's his choice and who are you to say he should go back to his professors because he did it wrong? That's a bit arrogant. If what you were looking for isn't what you got then don't slam the messenger with your expectations, go and find the the fair and balanced info you are looking for and make your own conclusion. One of the Baptist publications did this and it was very balanced and well written. Not that it mattered to me as I have looked at, and attended, Latter Rain type movements for a few years and believe them to be false, but I WENT INTO THEM WITH AN OPEN MIND as I was a fairly new Christian at the time. I drew my final conclusions not based on reports or opinion but by consistently asking the Lord for wisdom and discernment into these things. Whose to say that the people here reporting haven't already done the homework and are now in the stages of rebutting based on a foregone conclusion? You're rebukes are misguided in the case of Jon, whom I do not know. But this is a forum for opinion and news and the moderators will have the final say on how things are written.
by Lawevangelis : BTW, the text you quote from Matthew on demons has nothing to do with healing
If you reference vexed, possessed, unclean spirit, etc... you'll see healing connected with deliverence. Check it out for yourself.
To whom it may concern,
Jesus wept over Jerusalem. He being full of the Holy Spirit spoke grievingly to the religious leaders of His day and called them hypocrites and snakes because they were leading people to hell. He also willingly gave himself to be crucified for them. He also said the same judgment we use toward others would also be used toward us.
Are we being carnal in the way we conduct ourselves? Would Jesus make derogatory comments, would he conduct himself in humorous and foolish activities against those who were misrepresenting Him?
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
If we are not going to strive to follow in His steps, then what is the whole purpose of saying we belong to Him, and that we are really seeking for genuine revival?
If things that are wrong don’t really grieve our heart but only gives us a right to show that we are more righteous or that we know better than they, how can we say we are filled with the Spirit that He was filled with?
Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and tells us to be filled with the Spirit, and to walk in Love and sacrifice as He did. Being full of the Spirit, we should reprove darkness but not in the same attitude of others who are in the darkness. We are not to engage in the same type activities as people who don’t know God, Jesus expects better from His true followers. We are to live and walk in the fruit of the Spirit.
There is another concern ...
Sometimes, difficult things need to be said and done;
[i]And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
The corollary's, the compulsion if you will to this present situation would be "[i]Stop this madness!
[i]And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
What I am afraid of because it keeps rearing it's head is a misappropriation of Christian ... niceties or 'balance' or what constitutes, "love."
Being that we are in the midst of all these dead witnesses it strikes me odd that a Tozer or Ravenhill or a Keith Daniel can speak plainly and forcefully and no one bat's an eyelash. This site is full of plain speaking. Jon's usage of Jellyfish strikes me as too apropos.
"Sensitivity" seems to be something that is getting overplayed while atrocities are being under developed.
Ravenhill asked; [i]Have we no spiritual stature?[i]"Are we compromised?
What am I advocating here? A didactic reasoning over what constitutes 'bashing'? Or what scale is used to determine a proper balance? Do we not go well out of our way to tear down factions and divisive constructs, strife and bitterness and envy and all the other fleshy compulsions?
It's not those things at all. Sometimes I must wonder at the dancing around this oversensitivity to being offended or giving offense. The scripture is ripe with offending statements and that they come form Jesus Himself ought to set us back a pace and recall just where it was He wavered as [i]not to offend
I think we have our wires crossed and have let the world dictate subtly just what tolerance and compassion are made up of, even truth telling is bartered over in the name of love, when love has the courage to speak and not cower under a false sense of being 'nice', where did we get such notions? What kind of love is it that stands by and says nothing, does nothing in the face of common sensibilities sent out to pasture ...
Yes, it's a newsflash...I'm biased. I went with a bias. Absolutely. Actually, my main goal was to witness to those who attended. After I heard the message, I was glad that I did. Somebody in that arena needed to share the truth. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Sometimes candor is imperative, all this jostling around about the happenings there even to my own digression, trying to strike a 'balance' ... sigh, how much does it take to have to explain every jot and title these days where we cannot read between the lines in the one sense and not misappropriate doing so in the other? Not about to put words in our brothers mouth here but am almost certain his zeal and compulsion has much more to do with putting a halt to these shenanigans and this traveling circus atmosphere then it does to outright destroy the leader or the followers. For myself and for others who were, amazingly now to look back on it but nevertheless where actually swayed into buying so much of this nonsense at one time to call fire down upon their heads and seek their destruction ... "such were some of you". But redundantly it was those voices, those men who had the courage to speak up and often speak with words that set me in stark, offended opposition, "How dare they!" "Touch not the Lords anointed ..." that rattled me out of my sleepy state. A cold bucket of water is what is needed in this hour not sentiment and emotionalism. To the leaders as to the followers, don't be deceived and stop deceiving the people! Stop the carnival and the manipulating!
And to the rest, get some spiritual spine and learn how to love from the depths of our being, then just maybe they might be startled out of this now so easily acceptable and nefarious idea that everything is of God and needs not to be questioned or put to the test.
I turn the soap box over, my beloved brethren.
And to the rest, get some spiritual spine and learn how to love from the depths of our being, then just maybe they might be startled out of this now so easily acceptable and nefarious idea that everything is of God and needs not to be questioned or put to the test.
Yes and Amen! This love, as I believe the moderator would agree, is not one that readily gives trite answers but statments that over turn the apple cart, as Art Katz would say. What is love but to show, by grace and truth, the error of ones way? If they listen that man/woman is wise and you have earned a brother or sister. If they refuse the counsel they are unruly and foolish and should not be trifled with after the second try.
However, the one giving the advice better be in Spirit and Truth, and that is how we are accountable to God. All deeds will be judged by Him with whom we have to do. No deed will go unpunished, the flipside, no good deed will go unrewarded. Remember Job's friends...?
What have we to learn of being a steward with our mouths, our writing and our very notions...no deed is hidden from Him! This is the fear and trembling by which we will 'work out our salvation.'
O, dear friends, let us with a holy zeal root out the money-changers and with humility open our mouths to speak.
I do notice a certain humility that Keith Daniel speaks with, yet the authority is there and persuasive power of the Holy Spirit. One cannot be a man-pleaser or boaster of self and have this authority and power.
Amen?
Mike, you have expressed my sentiments exactly. The so-called "experts" in some charismatic circles report on Bentley as if they can't be too hasty (shades of Treebeard for you Tolkien fans) while others (like Robertson's CBN) jump on the bandwagon.
Meanwhile, some have a problem with the use of (rightly deserved) sarcasm, but cannot debate (don't even try) the cold, hard fact that Bentley DOES NOT PREACH THE GOSPEL (yes, I am yelling). Apparently that does not matter to some. Does anyone know of a (real) revival in 2,000 years of church history that did not center on the Gospel?
Let it be said loud and clear, "Bentley is a false prophet!" There is an especially hot place in Hell set aside for Bentley and others of his ilk. I am angry at what I saw; it made me and everyone else on our team that went out there last Thursday sick. We have audio, video and eyewitness testimony to everything I wrote on the blog.
It seems to me that Jesus had some colorful things to say about the Pharisees in His day; "brood of vipers, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones" comes to mind. At least the Pharisees made a pretense of respecting the Word of God, which is A LOT more than what I can say for Bentley at his Denton, TX appearance. I wonder what our Lord would say and do?
Defending the indefensible is ludicrous. Bentley needs to be exposed in no uncertain terms. I can't be polite about false prophets. I don't pray fire down on him (he does that himself), but I do pray that he will be exposed in every city that he visits.
Why? One reason among many comes to mind; because of the children. Gullible parents drag their kids out to these events. Bentley prays the "anointing" over them, specifically. Something about a millstone comes to mind.
You want revival? Repent of your heresy and bandwagon-jumping. To your knees and to your Bible! Stop exalting fallen, perverted man and start following Jesus alone.
Jon
Amen crsschk.
I wonder what the Ravenhill's, the Bernard's, the Tozer's et al would be saying right now. Much of what I hear from them twenty/fifty years ago actually speaks of where we are at right now. They saw it coming and spoke against it. A soft Gospel and awe struck people looking for manifestations is something many of our forebretheren spoke of. Poonen, Wilkerson, and Carter Conlon also speak forcefully on these issues currently without even going to these events. They don't do 'reports'. Yet they are still very powerful in their discernment and speech. Carter Conlon was pleading in love for people to wake up to the falsehoods around us. He said that the falsehoods are to test the church as a judgment. My spirit agreed with that immediately and I wholeheartedly believe it. God will see if we are seeking signs or His Son. How would God have to go about doing that? But Brother Conlon's style, like Tozer et al is sincere, not curt, not sarcastic. That's not a blanket indictment against us here but is to say that we can all spill back into the flesh if we are not careful. I personally have seen what falsehoods do to deceive and am passionate against what I know to be false. If I overstep in emotion then it's only because I insist on making the point. But I must be careful which is why I believe much of this battle is not in words but in the prayer closet. I can't lift the veil but God can. The Tozer's of the world were filled with the Holy Spirit, their candor was within an anointing so they were perceived as authorities. People on websites and blogs, no matter how sincere or accurate in rightly divided doctrine are not perceived as authority, just people with a lot of opinion. Right or wrongly we're seen as stinging critics with arguments absent of love. Righteous anger is indeed angry but not bitter...I believe many ride that line. I never got that from a Tozer or a Ravenhill. They offended many and a few may have called them bitter, but that had more to do with their perception via offense rather than truth. Then again they had control of the stage and the message, they were not engaging in debate from a contrary position. So this forum is a different dynamic.
I'm passionate about truth and angry with the deception around us but I have to guard against bitterness to those who are deceived. As well intentioned as we are, we may not realize how we come across in stating our case. I'm not advocating soft by any means but taking a 'guarded approach' to make sure that any misunderstandings are more their perception of the message, and not our character unbound in passionate rebuttals or rebukes.
Brother Mike (moderator),
I don’t want you to assume, I want you to know I’m replying to you, that’s the reason I put your name and (moderator in parenthesis).
I can only assume your post was replying to me because you wrote “concern” in the reply post area. I looked back over the posts to see if anyone else had that name. Please forgive me and disregard if you were not replying to me.
The only other time you have replied to one of my posts was a sharp rebuke for asking questions to someone who asked a question, saying I was judging.
I don’t recall you ever saying anything good about anything I have written. You have accused me of being judgmental. I would like to know what you were implying in your long post.
I hope you weren’t accusing me of being soft on sin, or on any false prophet/teaching of anyone. I have walked in a building of hundreds of people and walked right up to a man who has written a number of books and also preached to thousands and looked him right in the eye and rebuked him for something he stated in one of his books. I could go on about other things but I want; because I am nothing. I can only say that I love Him because He first loved me.
I don’t know you and you don’t know me, but I know that I am born again and been filled with the Holy Ghost. I address my post to “whom it may concern”. Please tell me what part of my post was unbiblical and why did I get such a reply with the tone you wrote in.
If a moderator on here is above sin and any type of correction, then take my name off of SI and I will still love you and pray for you. If that sounds soft then so be it and if I have been to hard then please forgive me. In His grace I always desire to be.
rbanks wrote:
To whom it may concern,Jesus wept over Jerusalem. He being full of the Holy Spirit spoke grievingly to the religious leaders of His day and called them hypocrites and snakes because they were leading people to hell. He also willingly gave himself to be crucified for them. He also said the same judgment we use toward others would also be used toward us.
Are we being carnal in the way we conduct ourselves? Would Jesus make derogatory comments, would he conduct himself in humorous and foolish activities against those who were misrepresenting Him?
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.If we are not going to strive to follow in His steps, then what is the whole purpose of saying we belong to Him, and that we are really seeking for genuine revival?
If things that are wrong don’t really grieve our heart but only gives us a right to show that we are more righteous or that we know better than they, how can we say we are filled with the Spirit that He was filled with?
Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and tells us to be filled with the Spirit, and to walk in Love and sacrifice as He did. Being full of the Spirit, we should reprove darkness but not in the same attitude of others who are in the darkness. We are not to engage in the same type activities as people who don’t know God, Jesus expects better from His true followers. We are to live and walk in the fruit of the Spirit.
I can only assume your post was replying to me because you wrote “concern” in the reply post area.
?
I looked back over the posts to see if anyone else had that name. Please forgive me and disregard if you were not replying to me.
OK, I will disregard brother ... It was a very general statement towards a variety of sentiment, across any number of postings, articles, what have you.
As to the rest of this ... apparently it does apply after all. You are way too sensitive
Brother Mike (moderator),
Thanks for your response to my over sensitive post.
I believe you shoot a very straight arrow. I respect your strong witness for the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A friend in Christ,
rbanks
Lawevangelis said :"Let it be said loud and clear, "Bentley is a false prophet!" There is an especially hot place in Hell set aside for Bentley and others of his ilk."
The Word of God says: "Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when he was disputing with the Devil in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
I wonder which example is right?? or which example is righteous in the sight of God 2Ti 4:2 proclaim the message; persist in it whether convenient or not; rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching.
Now I'm going to guess you're not yet 10 years old in the Lord, so because of that I'm going to refrain much of what I would say. The fact is if he has a demon and you are a real Holy Spirit Filled believer all you need do is cast it out, if he's following powers of darkeness, join with your witnessing group and bind and come against those powers, if you have the blessing of the Lord and He is with you than these powers will be bound and cast down and brought to naught.
Lawevangelis said: "I wonder what our Lord would say and do?" I think you may have reacted toward Jesus the same way these people did: Mar 3:20 Then He went into a house, and the crowd gathered again so that they were not even able to eat.
Mar 3:21 When His family heard this, they set out to restrain Him, because they said, "He's out of His mind."
Mar 3:22 And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem said, "He has Beelzebul in Him!" and, "He drives out demons by the ruler of the demons!"
Consider this verse: 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? ARE ALL WORKERS OF MIRACLES?
I don't like what I see/hear all the time in the church or in this revival, however I also am not willing to steal like a thief a real healing someone may have recieved at this revival because of my knowledge. I will however learn the lessons of a farmer and how to plant (make knowledge acceptable) and cultivate the hearts of men.
Lawevangelis
Your written words carry no authority, just anger (like one who stands outside a dark room and curses the darkness when all they needed to do was light a lamp and enter in that dark room to dispell the darkness), I'm going to guess your spoken words don't either. My advise to you is to make sure you have the blessing of God on your tongue and in your fingers before you do anything.
As to Bentley? Act 5:38 And now, I tell you, stay away from these men and leave them alone. For if this plan or this work is of men, it will be overthrown;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even be found fighting against God." So they were persuaded by him.
rbanks.
Fully agree with you brother.
One may be right but not conduct himself in a way that is right.
Bless you brother that you may be under both grace and truth (as you already seem to be heading), not leaning to the left or to the right.
jiyouk wrote:
rbanks.
Fully agree with you brother.
One may be right but not conduct himself in a way that is right.
Bless you brother that you may be under both grace and truth (as you already seem to be heading), not leaning to the left or to the right.
Thanks for the encouragement and for reading my post accurately.
In the church world where so much is going wrong today I still don't want to forget the words of Jesus who said they will know you are my disciples because you have love one to another.
It is so easy to get bitter today but the cause of Christ is greater than me, and I really do want to have the right attitude.
I just want to follow in His Steps which is impossible to do unless He lives in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Thanks again brother and may God richly bless you!
Hello All,
I was very excited when I first heard about Todd Bentley and the Flordia Revival. I believe in the power and workings of the Holy Spirit but I also have a healthy skepticism, as I believe that it should line up with what the scriptures teach. God has brought me from a place of flat out denial of these kinds of teachers and happenings to an openess.
I am sad to read this blog and that Todd is not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ at his events and that it seems that he's only speaking about his own divine revelations and works. I'm also concerned about stories of his violence.
Anyways, I'm basically writing cause I'm going to go see him in LA later this month and see for myself. I'll probably give you an update and my point of view, which will hopefully be a little less bias than this one.
The most important thing is that God is glorified through all and above all.
Seeking Truth and God's Power,
Jennifer
Regardless of your opinion of Lakeland and/or Todd Bentley, I think it would be hard for any true believer to "bear witness" IN THE SPIRIT with the supposed "report". You may bear witness with your natural man and your carnal senses, however, the letter reeked of a worldly, sarcastic journalistic style. The writer wrote skillfully and with great precision, however, the spirit coming from the letter was not helping it at all. I would find it very hard to believe that anyone would be convinced to "leave the dark side" (...my words...) by reading this. If we confront what we feel to be error or heresy it needs to be in love. And no love is not an exposure of wrongdoings only. There is a softness and a humility attached to loving rebukes. The example of Jesus' dununciation of the pharisee's and sudducee's does not apply in this situation. The reason being that the tactics of the critics bare a closer resemblence to the pharisees than the critiqued. This is just one man's humble opinion, and I mean no offense by it again. If the brother who wrote the article in question reads this, please don't take this as a rebuke to you, for that is not at all the tone in which I'm writing it. Just stating my opinion and trying to help...God bless!
Jeff
Fireinmybones1,
You say, "The example of Jesus' dununciation of the pharisee's and sudducee's does not apply in this situation. The reason being that the tactics of the critics bare a closer resemblence to the pharisees than the critiqued."
You're going to have to explain this one.
In my report of what happened in Denton, I proved that Bentley is a false teacher. The evidence is conclusive. HE is the Pharisee, the false teacher. When Jesus called them out for their false doctrine and Scripture twisting, He used very direct terminology and it was not flattering.
The best proof of this is the cold, hard FACT that he did not even attempt to preach the Gospel at the event in Denton. Buttressing this is the fact that he spoke for more than an hour about himself. The proverbial icing on the cake is the fact that he took the focus off of Jesus in his hack-job of interpreting John 5 and put all eyes squarely on himself.
Now in the WoF movement there is a tendency to refer to anyone who uses the Bible (correctly) to point out the heresy of the movement as "Pharisaical". In point of fact, Bentley did that very thing in his diatribe on July 3rd; we have him on audio doing it.
So my question to you is, "Do you adhere to the Word of Faith teaching?"
Jon
I got a point to make.
I think we all should stop watching at lakeland (youtube/godtv etc.)and being so busy with this thing. We should pray for a real move of God and His Spirit, that Christ may be glorified.
Because when I watch at all those things on youtube it doesn't build my faith. Confusion starts. I believe God can save, heal, restore, set free...and I want to believe Him for that.
That God may show us who He is and stretch out His arm to His people. Amen. Let's pray with boldness to the living God.
I've read numerous times throughout these Lakeland posts that we should stop talking about it. I disagree. That is the point of these forums, so that we can have discussions. For those not interested or tired of reading about these subjects, skip over them. But for people who recently joined in like me just yesterday, this isn't old news, it's new to me.
Also, I think there is a benefit in talking about it because I've prejudged a lot of people and pastors by what others have said with out listening to their teachings or meeting them personally, only to discover that I was wrong and others were wrong. I don't want to do that anymore. Though I value other's opinions, I don't want to judge prematurely. That is why I appreciated this posters review, rather than just an " i heard from a friend who heard from a friend" type entry. And why I plan on going and seeing for myself.
[u][b]Ezekiel 33:4-6 (NKJV)
then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
Exactly! This is why we need to be discussing this. Because there are a lot of people who do not have discernment and are weak in their faith that need to read this stuff.
I agree. If false prophets or teachers can publically deceive, why can't we publically warn? I take my cues from the Gospel. Paul said that if the Gospel being preached or been preached that is different from his, then it is false. This may take some discernment in some instances, in others there is a glaring red flag. Regardless, there will always be a mixture of truth AND lies. Wolves in sheeps clothing don't look like wolves and a counterfeit will always look similar to the real thing. BUT IF THE INTENTION IS ALWAYS TO DECEIVE, THEN WHAT WOULD BE THE PRICE OF SILENCE?
I understand that we need to warn etc. Thank God for discernment and truth on this forum.
But what I see in my own life is that this takes a lot attention (picking out the truth from the false etc.) and I want to give that attention and time to God in prayer etc.
Maybe I was speaking a bit to much out of myself. But it just doesn't build up my own personal faith. So I thought why not make a point and maybe some more people think this way.
God bless
Okay, I'm going to be frank, honest and make myself vulnerable here. I understand that the following testimony may in fact discredit me in some of your eyes, but I suppose that is a risk I have to be willing to take. I believe that by reading my past posts you can see that I do indeed strive to be Christ-Like and am not a tatooed, bearded worshipper of Todd Bentley...that being said...
(and this is being written in response to the author of the article in question . . .)
I have been to Lakeland and attended three separate services. I am a pastor in full-time ministry and went to see what was going on for myself. I must say through the 3-4 years which I have been extremely familiar with the teachings of Todd Bentley, I have seen and heard him say things that bothered me. I have been quick to bring correction to any errors I may have heard to those the Lord has entrusted to my care and watch. To be perfectly honest with you, I have had to do the same thing with the teachings of Leonard Ravenhill and David Wilkerson as well. The errors exist on different planes and certainly have different theological hues to them, but are there nonetheless.
Anyways, when I heard of the movement in Lakeland I went to examine for myself. Understand that I DID not go as one who adheres to extreme WOF prosperity teachings. I do not even come close to belonging to the "Rick Warren" Purpose Driven Fan Club of America. I have not had plastic surgery to make smile look like Joel Osteen's, nor have I ever read or been tempted to read his books. What I'm trying to say is, I'm not one who subscribes to flaky, westernized, seeker-friendly, ear tickling, money grubbing, gospel rip-offs. I am one who passionately preaches holiness and make it my aim to lift up the cross in all that I do. (I hope that doesn't sound like I'm glorifying myself...I just don't want to be typecasted as a prosperity loving apostate . . . )
Anyways, I went to Lakeland with a genuine desire for nothing more than Jesus Christ. If God was moving there, I wanted to experience it for myself. I wanted to see the changed lives, I wanted to see the lost saved, etc... I went there out of a heart that has prayed and groaned and literall lost hours of my life in desperate prayer and fasting for revival in America and in my own heart.
I can honestly say to you, that the manifest presence of the Lord was powerfully present in and around the building. I witnessed a young woman (14 years of age) who was sitting next to me, straighten up from scoliosis right next to me. As she forgave her brother, the healing occured instantly. There was no worship of Todd Bentley. It was simply hour after hour of non-hyped, soft and reverent worship of Jesus. The first two nights I attended all I could do was weep as I worshipped Jesus. I saw many salvations and heard incredible testimonies from the team they trained in street evangelism. One in particular was a man whoes son had (3 weeks prior) been killed in Iraq. An elderly gentlemen from the revival found him drunk out of his mind, living on the streets. He had turned to alchohol and been living on the streets, drunk, since he had received the news. This old believer found this man on the streets and won him to Jesus Christ and had been bringing him to the service every night since. I watched the former-alchoholic worshipping Jesus with every fiber of his being.
Did I witness people doing things that were perhaps carnal or fleshly? Most likely. However, that does not negate the real things that I witnessed.
Understand, I did not go to Lakeland saying, "I'm here and I accept and receive ANY AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT IS IN THIS BUILDING! WOO - HOO!" On the contrary, I made a conscious decision to tell the Lord, "If this is not of you, I want nothing to do with it, if it is of you, make yourself real to me. I receive only that which is of Jesus Christ and resist every other spirit." Furthermore, I went hungry for Jesus and not to glorify or worship a man.
According to scripture, Luke 11:11- , if I ask the Father for the Holy Spirit and do so genuinely with pure motives, I will receive no other Spirit. This does not mean that I do not test these spirits. However, I do not have to fear deception if my heart is after Jesus only. That was my attitude . . . and I did indeed experience a supernatural healing in my own body.
I went to Lakeland with a very, very painful and worsening condition of shingles. I mean painful! I am also a younger man and this was a somewhat rare occurence. I was praying in desperation for God to take it away as it was extremely discomforting, especially while on a Florida vacation with my wife and children. On my third night there, while in worship, I felt what felt like a warm liquid passover my leg. From that night on the shingles, the painful, bleeding, chicken pox like rash, began to disappear. By the time I returned to the place I was staying they were noticably different and by the next day VERY noticable.
I returned home, not with a passion for Todd Bentley or angels. I returned home with an extreme passion to preach Jesus Christ with power and deep conviction. The day after my return home I preached at our Juvenile Hall in town. The conviction of the Holy Spirit was more strong than I have ever experienced while preaching in that relatively hard environment. Many of the inmates were weeping under deep conviction. There were close to 25-30 who wanted to give their lives to Jesus Christ. One young man was under such deep conviction and weeping so intensely that the guard held me over so that I could counsel him a little bit. (this is very rare there . . .)
My only point is that the fruit I saw in my own life while there and upon returning was not only good, but some of the best I've ever seen. I have never once been tempted to glorify Todd Bentley, or discard the gospel of Jesus Christ for some pseudo-gospel which promotes angels over Jesus. I have never heard that or anything of the sort preached by Bentley either.
Like I said earlier, I did not and do not agree with everything Bentley has said. Does he perhaps need tempering, sure. Does he need cousel and wisdom, sure.
My dear brother, our experiences varied greatly. I do appreciate and value your opinion as a brother in the Lord and I am open to correction, counsel and rebuke. All I can do is tell you that I experienced it first hand and not via youtube or destroy-all-heretics.com. I went with a hungry heart and experienced a genuine touch from Jesus Christ.
I submit my experiences to you all for your judgments...I just felt the need to be honest and tell you my experience.
God bless,
Jeff
Brother,
Whatever your experiences were, and I'm sure you had them, they are irrelevant compared to what comes out of Bentley's mouth. What matters isn't what we "feel" at a service, but what is preached. It isn't even what we see (healings, real or otherwise). The validity of a teacher is not measured by his performance or the emotions he engenders, but by his message. And it is grossly misleading.
If we feel things that are emotionally uplifting and the preaching is anti-Scriptural, the feelings don't matter one iota.
Best,
Jon
Dear brother,
Believe me when I say that I understand what you are saying and have taught those in my congregations the very principles you espouse. However, I am not accepting feelings at the expense of scripture. When I was there the gospel was preached. Jesus did say also that you would know a false teacher by their fruits . . . fruits are obviously a reference to the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit. Examine Bentley on that criteria.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Revelation 13:13,14 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Revelation 16:14 "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs...."
Revelation 19:20 "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf."
These passages and others, indicate that
Satan as well as God can perform miracles.
In all honesty, there is now so much Biblical evidence against Todd Bentley I don't know why anyone would be defending him.
Of course, it's easy to defend a ministry that gives an appearance of revival rather than say...Kent Hovind...Hmmm...
Don't grow so desperate for revival that you lose sight of the importance of the doctrines of Christ.
God uses both the righteous and the un-righteous, it does not surprise me that there were genuine conversions and healings, but I would suspect them to be brought on by God alone and the consequential glory will be given to God alone.
However, when you look at how Todd Bentley acts (yes, acts) on stage, it is clear that what he does is a carnival show. Benny Hinn on steroids.
No, this "revival" is primarily a worship of Todd Bentley. People don't go there to meet God, people go there to meet Todd (watch some videos of people talking about the revival after having been there), no rhyme intended.
Andrew Strom just did a 5 part series on the Lakeland Revival, in it, he talks about how these speaking in tongues and extreme emotionalism were shunned by all previous revivals, but lakeland makes those it's core of beliefs.
When God takes a backseat to a female angel you can take a guess that someone else is pulling the strings.
"However, I am not accepting feelings at the expense of scripture. When I was there the gospel was preached. Jesus did say also that you would know a false teacher by their fruits . . . fruits are obviously a reference to the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit. Examine Bentley on that criteria."
Fireinmybones,
Throughout this website we have discussed the many aberrations of scripture that Bentley has espoused. We've done this carefully discussing his tall tales of 'angelic beings' gutting him in heaven on an operating table and his supposed meeting with Paul the Apostle in a Cabin (clear divination which have Catholic connotations). He also uses the word 'portal' when discussing his transport to heaven, not to mention the angel Emma. In addition, he discusses meeting Jesus 'as we would see Him on earth, in the flesh' and described His physical features (brown eyes etc..) There is nothing biblical about the way Bentley describes these encounters. It's casual and irreverent. The people in the Bible fell prostrate on the ground in His presence. There are way too many inconsistencies as well. In the same sentence Bentley says that He saw an angel of the Lord, Jesus, then said he wasn't sure if it was.
The people who have influenced him are also unbiblical in their practices. Bob Jones, Benny Hinn, and Paul Cain are all extremely extra-biblical in their doctrine and their tall tales of 'encounters'. Jones and Cain have also been involved in rampant immorality. Look at the history of his influences in their personal lives and their doctrine then make a case that these people are biblical-fruit bearing influences.
I've said it time and again, the bottom line to me is that Bentley does not preach the Gospel Paul preaches. I believe this to be clear and unequivocal so to me fruit is not an issue. I don't think 'wolves in sheep's clothing' will have clear signs of bad fruit. How could they? Did Ted Haggard?? Yet many peoples faith were shaken because they thought his fruit was good. Did the disciples think Judas was a bad apple before Jesus started hinting??
Since I believe we have made a pretty clear case concerning Bentley's Gospel, perhaps you should make the case his fruit bearing. An example of his generosity would be a good start, and meekness as well. It probably won't trump anything I have found but I'm willing to at least look.
FireinmyBones1,
Thank you very much for sharing your experience and point of view and being so transparent. I'm going to go to his conference when he comes to LA on the 25th of this month. And I can honestly say that I'm not going to see Todd Bentley or worship him, but I want to see what God is doing (or if God is doing). I hope that you won't be swayed in your passion for Christ by what some are saying. I know I have been sometimes when you are come upon with strong opposition on this site. I know what you are saying though cause I feel the same way, and I know that you aren't putting emotion before God's Word but I want to be where God is showing Himself powerfully.
I think there can be a lot of condemning on this site of things that we don't know anything about. For you to say that Todd Bentley is making up or concocting these visions of heaven and angels is wrong. How are you to know? The bible says that God will pour out His Spirit and His people will dream dreams and see visions. God's people and those who aren't his people have many visions in the bible that were pretty crazy sounding and God works in incredibly unique ways. Our God is a foolish God and He works in foolish ways so that He can put to shame those who think themselves wise in their own minds. Are we scared to to think that God can work in new ways? Is that why if anyone has a vision or experience or a word from God, it is automatically unbiblical cause it is not laid out exactly as such in scripture? The truth is we don't know. Why aren't we rejoicing that people are getting healed and SAVED from eternal hell and separation from God?? I rejoice in this - this is all some people know of God - albeit "wrong" - there are hundreds more followers and believers and citizens of heaven because of Todd. It's not our job to determine whether Todd is a false prophet or not or his eternal destination. Rejoice! - because of God's grace on us sinners.
In all honesty, there is now so much Biblical evidence against Todd Bentley I don't know why anyone would be defending him.
It's called "Strong Delusion". Thats a biblical term. And sometimes it's something that is sent by the Lord. I dont understand why He does that, but who am I to even think about questioning the actions of a mighty God?
It's the same "Strong Delusion" that causes a Jewish man to read Isaiah and not be able to figure out that a lot of that book is talking about Jesus! It's all right there in front of him, yet he will not see.
Thousands pack in to see Benny Hinn... yet how anyone can take him seriously is beyong my comprehension. And still he rakes in untold millions of $$ every year.
You would think a child of God would have more discernment than anyone else... but many times they are more gullible than anyone else.
I think if the Holy Spirit hasnt given you any more discernment than that... perhaps the Holy Spirit isnt in you... in which case all I can say you better get saved! (thats not aimed at [b]anyone
Krispy
Why aren't we rejoicing that people are getting... SAVED from eternal hell and separation from God??
Are they? I think this is the central question of controversy. While the televised clips we have seen are perhaps not 'the whole picture', they do seem to suggest this revival has everything but a clear gospel presentation. For me, this is of greater concern then some of the 'new' things I have seen.
By the way, I'm not afraid of news things...just not very impressed with them. There's nothing so new in these revival meetings that the world has not seen in religious ecstaticism before. They are not necessarily reasons to endorse or condemn as far as I'm concerned.
I've tried not to take satisfaction in being critical of Bentley. In fact, I was very willing to see the good in his ministry. However, the almost total lack of basic apostolic Gospel preaching and the admission of demonic possession during his own Christian life have me deciding to avoid him. (From what clips I've seen visible on television...which clips by the way I also now avoid.) These concerns are reasonable and valid and not at all rooted in unkindness or untruthfulness. In my opinion they should be addressed rather then swept under the carpet, especially by Todd Bentleys most enthusiastic supporters.
Thanks,
MC
I know I have been sometimes when you are come upon with strong opposition on this site.
If you come upon strong opposition in this site, perhaps rather than stick your fingers in your ears... you should maybe pay attention.
This is not your run of the mill Christian forum where it's anything goes. I have found this site to be full of people from all different walks of life who have much wisdom to share. Most of the people I've met here are 10 times more serious about Christ than any I've ever met.
We have missionaries, street preachers, Bible school students, pastors... great minds and hearts. Most here are doers and studiers of the Word of God. There are many here that when it comes to Bible knowledge I am not even worthy to tie their shoes.
I've learned over time that if I have a question about something doctrinally... I can come here, ask about it... and generally get some great insight.
So when I see you say something like (paraphrased) "Don't worry about these judgemental people on this forum... so what if they are opposed to Bentley... go anyway..." it literally tears my heart and also angers me.
Tears my heart out because I see you with your fingers in your ears and whistling Dixie so you wont be swayed by anyone... and angered because you sending people to a grossly false teacher.
And I have to ask... why then are you here? Not that I want you to leave, but if you're not hear to learn and be encourged, then what purpose is there in coming here? As long as you support heretics like Bentley, and their "doctrines of demons" (another biblical term), you will experience strong and extreme opposition.
Krispy
The bible says that God will pour out His Spirit and His people will dream dreams and see visions.
Sure... as long as they line up w/ scripture. Bentley's dont.
It's interesting that scripture actually says that even if an [b]angel
I think Jesus looked down the tunnel of time when He said that... and may have seen Todd Bentley.
... or maybe not, but it seems a bit too coincidental.
Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:
If you come upon strong opposition in this site, perhaps rather than stick your fingers in your ears... you should maybe pay attention.
Krispy
Hey #24 were you talking to me? :-P
KrispyKrittr wrote:If you come upon strong opposition in this site, perhaps rather than stick your fingers in your ears... you should maybe pay attention.
This is not your run of the mill Christian forum where it's anything goes. I have found this site to be full of people from all different walks of life who have much wisdom to share. Most of the people I've met here are 10 times more serious about Christ than any I've ever met.
We have missionaries, street preachers, Bible school students, pastors... great minds and hearts. Most here are doers and studiers of the Word of God. There are many here that when it comes to Bible knowledge I am not even worthy to tie their shoes.
I've learned over time that if I have a question about something doctrinally... I can come here, ask about it... and generally get some great insight.
So when I see you say something like (paraphrased) "Don't worry about these judgemental people on this forum... so what if they are opposed to Bentley... go anyway..." it literally tears my heart and also angers me.
Tears my heart out because I see you with your fingers in your ears and whistling Dixie so you wont be swayed by anyone... and angered because you sending people to a grossly false teacher.
And I have to ask... why then are you here? Not that I want you to leave, but if you're not hear to learn and be encourged, then what purpose is there in coming here? As long as you support heretics like Bentley, and their "doctrines of demons" (another biblical term), you will experience strong and extreme opposition.
Krispy
Krispy - I really don't have need to defend myself of this. I would just challenge you to reread your posts and meditate on them and see if the spirit of them are aligned with what God's Word teaches on Christian conduct. It is arrogance to think you know everything, especially when it comes to God's Word - for who can know it fully? I was not encouraged or uplifted by your posts - isn't that why we are here as you say - for those very reasons? Or is it to defend our own understanding?
Respectfully,
Jennifer
Quote: "Hey #24 were you talking to me?"
I think I understand your meaning MrBillPro!
Maybe some will(I do hope that they do) understand why I am posting the following link on this thread.(A riddle of sorts for Cinderella)
Might there be some connection between these two(this link and this thread)subjects.
1 Sam. 15:23a comes to my mind where It Is Written, "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry..."
And now,to put it all together,here is the link:
Why aren't we rejoicing that people are getting... SAVED from eternal hell and separation from God??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that a clear presentation of the gospel is not being presented nightly but as I've listened via the internet broadcasts I have heard some presentation of the gospel though. In the Asbury revival there was repentance to be sure, but there was not a clear exposition of the gospel, but what there was, was a clear manifestation of the presence of God in thier midst. If the presence of God manifests, there will be repentance and salvations and healings and .......etc.....
Now as to Mr. Bentley? At this point I don't believe he is bringing in the presence of the Lord, I have always believed that God is responding to His own dear children who are gathered in His name, the difference between these christians and other sincere believers who gather is that these folks are at liberty (free) to move with God without limiting The Holy One of Israel. Offer that atmosphere in your churches and the saints will awake and revival will break out everytime. The troubling thing is that most churches don't want revival because than that would mean that Jesus would have to be Lord of the peoples instead of the preacher. Give us a king like the other nations!
I fully understand the criticisms of Todd Bentley's ministry. I do see the valid points being presented. I must say, however, to state that most if not all (forgive me if I'm adding to anyones words here...) who claim to be experiencing God at this "revival" are actually receiving strong delusion from the Lord Jesus as judgment - well it angers, no, hurts my heart a little bit. I know many an individual, who have traveled to Lakeland and have returned ablaze with a fresh passion for Jesus, a fresh passion for souls, a fresh passion for holiness. These individuals are indeed some of the most Godly, humble, clean living, "prayingest", soul winning(est), servant hearted people whom I have ever been blessed to know personally. I am many of their Pastor and know them very well. They are not the stereo-typical "revival-conference junkie", who sport homemade, puffy paint Todd Bentley T-Shirts, wear the Israelie flag as a cape, carry two shofars in a holster at all times, and always have with them a two liter bottle filled with "anointed" olive oil. (forgive me if my description here defines and/or offends anyone...)
These individuals, rather, are people who I know spend hours of their day in secret communion with God. Who give every unencumbered moment over to seeing the salvation of the lost. Who have selflessly laid their own agendas aside to serve a ministry from which they benefit very little. Who burn with a passion for Jesus that is incomparable to anything I've ever seen.
The described individual may sound fictional and almost mythical, but I promise you, I know many like this. It is individuals such as these, that I know personally, who have traveled to Lakeland and come home changed by God. To say that individuals such as these are actually receiving strong delusion from the Lord as a form of judgment on their gullibility and unwillingness to love and adhere to truth is, well, a heart breaking thing. To think that brothers and sisters truly view other genuine brothers and sisters like this is heart breaking. Not all who are making the trip to Lakeland are flaky, doctrinally - sloppy, immature, pseudo-christians. We must not paint with such a wide brush, or we may end up painting over some masterpieces.
-Jeff
Why would anyone go to Lakeland for this "revival"... don't the minions that run Lakeland tell everyone that they can have this "annointing" through the TV and/or Internet?
People are so quick to run and "get some" instead of doing what Jesus says to do...
[u][b]Luke 24:49 (NKJV)
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
Tarry in the city. Tarry in your city. Then you will be "endued with power from on high."
Todd who???
I fully understand the criticisms of Todd Bentley's ministry.
I am sorry, I have read your comments brother and those of others ... The eqovicating is bothersome, it's a balancing act, it seems like one grand [i]but
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Just the verse alone, not who or sincerity or even the true, just the emphasis of the facts stated; That these things can still go on in His name, that they can and will occur, that is all and that is all I can attrubute any of this to.
The far worse aspect can be found below. Please, scroll down this link, watch and listen, forgetting even the commentary, there is nothing left to say;
[url=http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?cat=15]Todd Bentley’s Strange “Revival” Continues
The backdrop of this whole ministry is false. Starting with Bob Jones. I've seen him wave his arms and say 'there's the wind' and the crowd sways with this 'wind' and everyone gets all caught up in it. People have come away from these manefestations with a 'glow of God' as if they just exited a roller coaster ride. They are seemingly on fire for the Lord. I pay no attention to this because I know that there is no way that they would have attended if they truly understood the false teachings of Bob Jones. Bentley follows this man and is an admitted protege to he and Benny Hinn. Paul said to have nothing to do with anyone who preaches a Gospel other than he and the other apostles. There are numerous clear warnings about false teachers. If the stories they tell and the doctrine they preach are extra biblical, then it is false. And if the doctine is false, the teacher is false. And if the teacher is false PAUL SAYS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. It doesn't matter how much someone is 'on fire' for the Lord, or a 'true prayer warrior', or whatever Godly attribute they may display. If they are not discerning these men's teachings and stories they they are spiritually harming themselves DESPITE any evidence to the contrary.
The VERY FIRST WORDS out out Jesus' mouth concerning the last days was: 'take heed that no man deceive you' Matt 24
He goes on to say in Matthew 24: "23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".
The very elect? What is Christ saying here? He is saying that this deception will be so strong that is will have the appearance of Him but it will not be Him so have discernment.
He also says if someone says go here or there don't go. Matt 24:26 'Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.' How many times have we seen this? 'The Spirit is alive in Toronto let's go' or 'I hear the Spirit is with Todd Bentley in Lakeland let's go'. When Christ says the word 'deserts' and 'secret chambers' he is saying 'do not go 'far' or 'near'. Whether it's in Lakeland Florida or next door at your neighbors in a 'secret place or room' do not go. If someone says they have the secret or a special anointing don't believe them. This is what I adhere to, not what someone is saying or doing. Ted Haggard appeared to be a the same type of Christian, warm, open, full of the fire of God. It meant nothing! If we have a strong, content, relationship with God, we shouldn't need men like Hinn or Bentley to 'jump start' us spiritually with something we want to 'see and feel'.
If anyone believes we are living in the last days then why wouldn't you want to look at what Jesus and the Epistle Apostles say concerning it?
I've actually met Bob Jones... was "prophecied" over by him back when I was into the whole thing, and involved in a sister church of Morningstar.
He's a crock.
Most people dont know that he was kicked out of IHOP for sexual misconduct. He would have women undress alone with him in his office while he prophecied over them... so they could "stand naked before the Lord".
At that moment any real ministry he may have had became null and void. But now Bentley uses this man as verification that this is a movement of God???
Give me a break. It's a movement alright... but I'll refrain from getting crude.
Krispy
Krispy I for one really do appreciate your letting me know this about Bob Jones, a guy named Matthew Stephens attended our Bible Study group with the group leaders Blessings not mine about two weeks ago and I heard he was at one time mixed up with Bob Jones I really wished someone could verify this.
"I've actually met Bob Jones... was "prophecied" over by him back when I was into the whole thing, and involved in a sister church of Morningstar.
He's a crock.
Most people dont know that he was kicked out of IHOP for sexual misconduct. He would have women undress alone with him in his office while he prophecied over them... so they could "stand naked before the Lord"."
Krispy, I had no idea you had those connections. We need testimonies like yours....badly. I recall reading all about the misconduct but a lot of that stuff gets lost over the years. This stuff is abominable yet there seems to be no consequence. To me his doctrine, or any doctrine of the latter rain and their splinter groups (Joyner) has not changed. If it does change it just keeps getting further and further out there. So many red flags so little discernment. It's hard to watch all the deception. I'm glad you came out of that movement with your discernment intact. Blessings to you!
Well?
No replies, no rebuttal's, no 'however's' and 'buts' and stories of how wonderfully refreshed and "on fire" we all are to refute this dark cloud that hangs over it all? I want to hear just how it is possible that anything whatsoever cannot be damaged, darkened and destroyed by this incredible display of ... demonic credulity.
[i]"And I'm thinking, God, why is not the power of God moving ... He said because you have not kicked that woman in the face. And there is this older lady worshiping right in front of the platform ... and the Holy Spirit spoke to me, the gift of faith came on me and He said, kick her in the face ... with your biker boot. I inched closer and I went like this (makes a motion like a field goal kicker) "Bam!" And just as my boot made contact with her nose, she fell under the power of God.
He mocks ... And the people laugh ... "Holy laughter"
1) He is flat out lying
2) This happened as he describes.
[b]If
We are beyond rational thinking and even common sense, it is beyond outrage and it is not even in the neighborhood of criticism. Think people. If this had been practically any other pastor, just this incident alone would be enough for pages and pages of commentary. Where is the outrage, why is it given a pass? Where is the micro surgery of parsing words and giving the benefit of the doubt and where we should be not saying this and not saying that? I want to hear it. Where are the 'exaggerated' claims ... And if he is flat out lying, what then? What criteria will be used, the same that is leveled at some here over spliting hairs? This is matter of fact as it gets.
That this alone is decoupled from the rest of the non-sensical and the unscrupulous, the unbiblical, does it need to be noted, that it is not even near the Book? Let alone a 1st grade education, [b]strong
Wake up!
This far more tame than I could even imagine that it would have sounded written out. The 'heathen' of the world have more respectibility in their sin than this bastardization and blashpemy of attribution towards the things of God. The circus has come to town and taken over the Church, it seems even Benny Hinn is ashamed to be associated ...
Unbeliveable.
Krispy, I had no idea you had those connections. We need testimonies like yours....badly. I recall reading all about the misconduct but a lot of that stuff gets lost over the years. This stuff is abominable yet there seems to be no consequence. To me his doctrine, or any doctrine of the latter rain and their splinter groups (Joyner) has not changed. If it does change it just keeps getting further and further out there. So many red flags so little discernment. It's hard to watch all the deception. I'm glad you came out of that movement with your discernment intact. Blessings to you!
Yep, I was involved here in Asheville in a church called Mountain Vintage Fellowship (you can google them)... and they are affiliated with Morningstar (Rick Joyner). It was about 8 or 9 yrs ago. Bob Jones came and did a week long conference. I had no idea about his past, and the leadership of that church wasnt about to tell anyone either.
That church got so freaky it was the catalyst that started bringing me out of that whole mess.
My skin crawls every time I hear the name "Bob Jones"... even when I drive thru Greenville SC and pass BJU (no connection).
Krispy
Coley and Krispy
I know the process of growth in Christ and that there are many different deceptions (lies believed) that Truth reveals/Light dispels, but this general sort of deception is really quite a bad one to be drawn into (years of recovery, a blow to what was known as “faith”, etc.).
Is there any way that either of you could say simply and clearly what Truth freed you? I hear that it just became so freaky…too much excess to be swallowed. What else could it be helpful to persist in pointing out? I am thinking of Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Was there a death of self? A Word of God? that settled the issue?
"I do want to set forth some concerns just here about these matters as we seem to have been somewhat inundated with a whole force of argument over them lately.
Baby and the bath water
Probably the greatest of all strife and confusion right here. There is an adamancy towards being truthful and factual that will not waver in these discussions throughout this forum. It is not up for discussion or challenge as to holding each other accountable. Just here is where many things get well off track and presumptions displace concern, even motivation.
What we have seen too often is rebelling against the test of authenticity due to an assumption that by doing so then casts all things associated into negative light, hence the baby and the bath water.
It is both useless and foolish to carry this approach about us any longer. We have often gone around in circles wasting everyones energies in the process trying to explain just 'what we do not mean'.
There are well intentioned people, saints even that do get things flatly wrong. That does not make them anything other than incorrect, though in some cases there is also a pragmatism that can chisel away at the credibility if not out right demolish the whole structure.
The point?
Get your facts straight. If you cannot and feel that you must present a possibility, an opinion, an observation, just be sure to call it that and leave off the injurious and accusatory towards those who are calling all things into question as to their factuality, their authenticity."
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