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Speak evil of no man

R
rbanks

I notice when David Wilkerson in talking about weird manifestations and so forth that He spoke of the error but He didn’t name any names. Should we be so bold in speaking about others? Does it please God when his children speak judgmentally about others by calling names of people so boldly? Should we just preach truth and speak against error but be careful how we speak of others?

Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Any thoughts you may have on this?

D
dohzman

I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.

R
rbanks

Thanks dohzman,

I think you are right concerning the apostolic authority. I believe in the 5 fold ministry but I’m not so quick to endorse any one who calls himself an apostle or prophet.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Many today who say they are apostles don’t have the signs of an apostle.

Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Does it seem to you that even Paul, though He had authority in the churches that He founded and could deal with certain people in the church, could only warn them about the false apostles they were letting come among them, but yet He could not stop them?

D
dohzman

interesting question. This is what I believe. I believe the apostle Paul had the authority and the power in/through Christ to shut many of these false brethren down, however I also believe that as Paul (along with the other apostles) drew closer to The Christ of calvary they/he laid down that right and submitted totally thier wills and prerogatives to the soverienty of the God of heaven and earth. I believe they knew that truth would ultimately prevail and out of fear ---no maybe genuine concern and love, they ordered thier lives in such a way so as to leave room for the brethren to make mistakes and miss the mark. I can't see Paul doing anything that would crowd or force a person, he left room for choice, even in his warnings. How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?

R
rbanks


dohzman wrote:
How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?

I dare not tread on that ground that some are doing today, and are saying that they know more than Paul and how He should have done it.

But notice what He said here before his departure.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Ac 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ac 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It seems that Paul was doing all He could to correct the wrong and to warn of the danger that was coming. One can not help but notice the three years of tears night and day while he was warning the flock about the grievous wolves that would enter in after he departs.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. This is serious!

Goodnight, till later on!

D
dohzman

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.

Your passage above was addressed to the Ephesian church, I believe. In light of Paul's prayers and the warning in Rev. that might make an interesting study.

S
sermonindex

I go back and forth with this. I think 'speaking evil of someone' can be somewhat subjective. What does that really mean? Does it mean not to name anyone? I've listened to many Wilkerson sermon's and I know for sure that one I listened to called Kenneth Copeland out on heresy. I was a little taken aback when I heard it myself. He even prefaced the sermon by saying that people may be offended and even leave during the sermon which was something he was willing to accept. He seemed very upset that he had not spoken out sooner so people could avoid this heresy. If I ever locate this sermon I will forward it to you. But for what it is worth, Paul himself mentioned names in these passages. Paul ruined Alexander the coppersmith's business of crafting false idols I believe in Greece by preaching against idol worship. Was Paul speaking evil of these people? Was he doing it simply out of anger (which would compromise the Holy Spirit inspiration)? Or was he warning people to stay away because they were diverting people away from truth like false teachers would do? These should be considered. So many brethren have fallen (ie..Haggard, Baker) including one here locally and have taken so many with them shaking their faith, that I wonder if silence in naming is a factor.

One local pastor of the biggest church (a place I attended) in our city of about 250,000 people had been involved in pornography and solicitation of prostitution for the past ten or so years. There were signs of trouble with an iron fisted approach behind the scenes while being all smiles on stage. He was a smooth and eloquent speaker and the pulpit seemed effortless. He set up everything to insulate himself from being fired by squashing any criticism and demanding loyalty from the associate pastors and staff in the event he were to be discovered. When it all came out, the fall out was tremendously chaotic and hurtful. It was a black eye for Christians as the church was divided on this man and the local news outlets were picking it up. He demanded three months 'rehab' and return to the pulpit. Finally, I as understand it, some lay people who were lawyers by profession trapped him in a legal technicality and he left. BUT he left taking half the congregation with him, blind sheep who are willing to be loyal at pretty much any cost. I'm not naming names because it's a done deal. It was, however, at that point that the Lord started showing me a lot about false teachers. I'm not sure exactly what qualifies one to be an 'apostle' but if I have discernment that allows me to see clearly then as a 'watchman' I feel compelled to warn people. If that means naming names then I really don't have a problem with that. I also don't have a problem with preaching truth as a contrast to false doctrine and leaving names out. As long as it's in the context of 'love' even if in righteous anger then I think it's proper. The Bible tells us to not be deceived in these last days and it seems deception is everywhere. So how can we tell people not to be deceived by false teachers if they don't know who we are talking about? One who is under deception doesn't understand rightly divided scripture...that's why they are deceived. And the Bible says clearly that they won't put up with 'sound doctrine' in these last days, so now what shall we do?

I think this is a battle of the praying saints myself. The veil of deception can only be removed by the Holy Spirit, despite how we engage in this battle for souls. I can only hope that like Ted Haggard these false teachers fall and the light is shone on their darkness so that the veil of deception can be lifted. Of course I would like them to repent and come out against such deceptions enlightening many to the way deception works. Jim Baker wrote a book about the word of faith and prosperity heresies after a transformation occurred in prison. Now I don't know much about him currently, I just know my wife read his book and told me about it. I'm not saying this to throw Baker into the mix because like I said I don't know much about him. But it seems people still don't get it in terms of fallen teachers. They take each incident on its own rather than looking at it in terms of an overall problem. It's like the doctor's treating thousands of cases of malaria but treat each case as separate and individual rather than seeing it as an epidemic, and as a consequence they are not looking for the root cause of the problem. But suppose they do see the problem as an epidemic and the problem is a breeding ground of mosquitoes at a certain water location. If the mosquitoes are the culprits in spreading the disease, it makes sense to name them as the problem so people can take precautions. Should we not do the same with those who propagate false doctrines thereby spreading deception and infecting new and perhaps naive believers? This is sticky stuff but everyone knew who Paul was against collectively....the pharisees of that day were spreading falsehoods. Paul said 'don't believe them, follow me as I follow Christ' (paraphrase). he also said if someone comes and preaches another gospel other than the one he, Peter et al preached to stay away. I would have to think that the nameless brethren under Paul's wing were reporting names to him and others about the falsehoods being spread. But you also don't need to name names for people to get the message concerning what group or what heretical doctrine you are against. Paul made it clear who he stood against, if he could not make that clear then it would never had made sense to write many of what is in his Epistles to begin with. But Paul did both as we see below and on this thread. This was his obligation, his mandate. What's ours?


1 Timothy 1:20:
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

Passage 2 Timothy 4:14:

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, but the Lord will judge him for what he has done.

R
rbanks

Thanks dohzman & coley,

Very good insight you have written. I started this thread thinking about how we must come against false doctrine but be true to the spirit of the word. I appreciate all the posts but lets look at the bottom part of coley’s post.

coley-quote
This is sticky stuff but everyone knew who Paul was against collectively....the pharisees of that day were spreading falsehoods. Paul said 'don't believe them, follow me as I follow Christ' (paraphrase). he also said if someone comes and preaches another gospel other than the one he, Peter et al preached to stay away. I would have to think that the nameless brethren under Paul's wing were reporting names to him and others about the falsehoods being spread. But you also don't need to name names for people to get the message concerning what group or what heretical doctrine you are against. Paul made it clear who he stood against, if he could not make that clear then it would never had made sense to write many of what is in his Epistles to begin with. But Paul did both as we see below and on this thread. This was his obligation, his mandate. What's ours?

1 Timothy 1:20:
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

Passage 2 Timothy 4:14:

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, but the Lord will judge him for what he has done.
(quote)

Also let’s look at the ones dohzman mention in his post
(Quote)-dohzman
I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.
(Quote)

One cannot help but notice the spirit in Paul when He dealt with these 3 incidents.

The one he turns over to Satan was for correction and that His spirit would be saved.

The one he called a child of the devil, obviously was because he was a sorcerer, he was perverting the right way of the Lord and hindering the salvation of the deputy. Notice that there was no real condemnation or evil Paul was trying to harm him but only blind for a season to humble him and keep him from stopping the work of God while Paul was there. Hopefully he got saved but we don’t know.

The one about Alexander the coppersmith, he was resisting Paul and the work of God in that area and brought much evil (harm) to Paul but notice Paul’s attitude. He said the Lord reward him for his works and he also said in the next few verses about those who didn’t stand with Him, he wanted the Lord to forgive them. He seemed to have the same attitude Jesus had about letting God be the judge, he operated in the Holy Ghost and only did what the spirit led him to do.

Now let’s look at the ones I posted too.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I believe there is something to be learned from all of this. According to the bible Paul was a man who wept and had a great concern for all the churches. He saw the dangers that were among them and the dangers coming. Yes, he preached and taught against heresy and error among them. He even confronted Peter and said he was to be blamed. But we read no where in the bible that he named names just to be naming them. He never spoke with hatred in his heart toward anyone. He never used humor, jokes, constant criticism, ill will, or any carnal attitude toward anyone. We also can’t find any place in the bible where Peter did not receive Paul’s correction in the right spirit.

Help me if you can, look at 1Cor. 11:13 where he says “for such are false apostles” and see that he is describing who they are and what they are doing to show that they are false. The big difference I see today is that this is the beginning days of the church and the church was not as large worldwide as it is today. Another thing to consider is the original apostles are not with us today. The deception of our day is much more on a larger scale and many Christians are being saved in the midst of so much false teaching. The minister I was saved under who is deceased now was a fine man but he was influenced a lot by Copeland and Hagin. He referred me to some of their books after I got saved but I mainly read my bible and prayed. I grew in my relationship with God and got to where I didn’t like listening to them any more because of the errors I was beginning to see about prosperity teaching and other things. I think we should help people in doctrinal error more with the truth in exposing the error than in attacking the person with judgmental speaking.

Some questions to consider, at what point do we bluntly call a person a false prophet/apostle, because we all have at one point or another spoke something in error?

Do you see anywhere Paul harped on the name of any false apostles? We do see that the ones he called false were the ones who were teaching falsely and claiming more than Paul.

Are there not some who are genuinely born again but are in some type of error who needs to be corrected?

Should we not be more concerned with correcting false teaching with the true teaching than just attacking the person?

Should we not with much prayer and humility before God make sure we are led by the Spirit in the mentioning of any name that we disagree with on teaching and make sure God wanted us to say it?

Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?

Don’t you think a good preacher can lose his credibility among people if he spends most of his time harping on other preachers in a judgmental way? This can do more to help the preachers preaching false doctrine.

C
crsschk

Couple of queries ...

[i]Speak evil[/i]

Intent.

Public ministries and ministers are by nature setup for criticism and should not be set off limit just because they are ... public. Their words carry out to whatever variety of constituents that they are addressing. It's an ironic twist that on the one hand they may want to be lauded or recognized up to the point of being either tested or held accountable for those things they speak. Just as often it is the 'followers' more so than those under subjection crying the loudest.

"Not naming names" is a curious notion, it's not like talking about your neighbor 'Joe Smith' that nobody knows anything about and I really do not see where there is some prohibition other than to vicariously attack someone, speak [i]evil[/i] of them.

If this is what is being constituted for speaking out at error, then I would say the accusers have a greater weight of responsibility for sparing the consequences under a guise of Christian sensibilities.

Granted, some things are just completely unnecessary, would like to think we might know the difference, the time and seasons, when to speak and when to be silent.

Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?

I don't know about that, sometimes I wonder if we haven't been cajoled into thinking that we cannot know truth form error lest it be 'revealed' to us, speaking in generalities brother.

There are only 4 instances used in the KJV of this combination, 3 of them are in the book of Revelations, they all use the same tense;

[b]G5578[/b]
ψευδοπροφήτης
pseudoprophētēs
psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace

From G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

[b]G5571[/b]
ψευδής
pseudēs
psyoo-dace'
From G5574; untrue, that is, erroneous, deceitful, wicked: - false, liar.

[b]G4396[/b]
προφήτης
prophētēs
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet: - prophet.

[b]G5346[/b]
φημί
phēmi
fay-mee'
Properly the same as the base of G5457 and G5316; to show or make known one’s thoughts, that is, speak or say: - affirm, say. Compare G3004.

One more consideration that keeps coming up in the thoughts;

[i]And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.[/i] Act 16:16-18

[i]Paul, being grieved[/i]

Nowadays the damsel would be celebrated, "[i]These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.[/i]" She is preaching the gospel! Touch not the Lords anointed" ...

S
sermonindex

"Some questions to consider, at what point do we bluntly call a person a false prophet/apostle, because we all have at one point or another spoke something in error?" rbanks

Appreciate the comments but I respectfully disagree. There is a huge difference in speaking in error and propagating a false doctrine. Quickly as to your other point about people being saved in the midst of falsehoods, I could be wrong but I don't recall anyone saying that people cannot be saved DESPITE false teachings. But Paul clearly says that there is a consequence to being led astray. A counterfeit gospel isn't counterfeit because it lacks truth altogether, it is a mixture of truth and falsehood. Wolve's in sheeps clothing aren't disguising themselves with outright secularism and overt heresies. So these are not sporadic errors, they are a consistent and cunning mixture. The Bible clearly warns us again and again to stay away from a gospel that is different from the one Paul preaches. And if Todd Bentley has the right to tell people to 'Come Get Some' then I have the right to warn 'Don't Go'. Who will judge whether Todd Bentley is filled with the Holy Spirit and the contrary position that warns people is not? It's not as if we haven't clearly shown through Scripture where they follow a different gospel. Scripture is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and if it doesn't add up IT DOESN'T ADD UP. Anything outside of it can't be inspired. I looked at Bentley's stories and theology and I've followed the Hinn's and Bob Jone's and when I do what Paul tells me to do, test the spirits and see if they are preaching a gospel that lines up with the one written by The Holy Spirit, it doesn't fit. Again this is nothing new, these doctrines HAVE BEEN YEARS IN THE MAKING with the Latter Rain movement and they have been able to go on pretty much unabated. So this is beyond a causal 'speaking in error'. The implication I get is that since we are all capable of speaking in error we should not label anyone a 'false prophet'. I see the two entirely differently. As I said earlier, there is a clear difference in an error spoken and a false doctrine. If these public ministries are allowed to publically deceive I don't see how we can't publically warn. Now, the manner in which this is done can be debated. I agree that trashing them with mockery and flippant remarks is not appropriate, or biblical. But there is also a ton of irreverent behavior on the side of these false teachers as well. Mocking the Holy Spirit by giving an anointing to someone with a flying knee is not to go unnoticed. Not biblical, and certainly not the same "HOLY" Spirit that speaks to me. That doesn't make bashing them right, I'm just making the point.

"Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?"

I would say yes it must be revealed and Paul implies that if their gospel does not line up with his then this is a false teaching which, by direct association, the one's teaching the falsehood are themselves false. If you are talking about a 'still small voice' or a personal affirmation then I can accept that as well. I'm not sure what your implication was here.

Again I have no problem naming names if they want to publically deceive. I can't waiver on this. I'm not doing this to win an argument, my concerns are driven by a sincerity that I can't take credit for.

S
sermonindex

How do you "mark & avoid"... how do you warn others... if you dont name names? Paul named names. He named the names of those who were deceiving the believers in the churches he was writing to. Their names have been in the record book (Bible) for 2,000 years.

It is NOT speaking of evil of someone when you expose the error of their teachings, and warn others to avoid them. Speaking the [b]truth[/b] about these teachers is not evil!

Suppose there was a flood... and several roads were under water... and I just tell people "there are 3 roads in this county that you could find yourself in peril on if you travel down them... but I'm forbidden to tell you which roads! You'll know which roads are flooded once you find yourself drowning."

That would be rediculous.

This verse is not referring to these types of things, unless someone is naming names in order to purposely run that person in the ground.

Krispy

R
rbanks

Thanks brethren,

This thread is helping me. Something you may not realize because I have not stated it until now but back in July of 2006 I had an experience with God of being filled with the Spirit like never before. I began to get upset with most of the Tv preachers over what they were saying in their messages.

I would hear Joel Osteen say things like have confidence in your self, talk to yourself. It seems like most of the preaching is self-help, instead of denying self. I listened to T. D. Jakes one time preaching on Joshua going into the water and the people were getting so emotional at his preaching and it wasn’t even correct according to the bible. I’ve heard Benny Hinn say things apart from the word of God. Jesse Duplantis so many enjoy listening to because he is so funny but a lot of what I heard him say was not funny to me. He seems to lift himself up and even put God under Him and I can’t listen to that kind of mess. As far as Todd Bentley goes that everyone seems to be caught up with, I watch Him one time and turned him off. Its looks like most of the preaching today is man centered instead of Christ centered. The message of the cross is avoided, only the passing words of mentioning the cross and the blood now and then, but the way of the cross is not brought out.

I prayed and asked God to help me not get into a critical spirit and not to become bitter over this, but to be full of his Spirit and be led by Him.

The reason I started this thread is for some insight from others and I thank you for that. The one thing God put in my Spirit so loud and strong was not to depart from the word. Everything we do must be from the Word of God by His Spirit.

I fear God too much to go astray from the Spirit of His Word. I definitely do not want to get caught up into anything that God is not in, and I want to have the right attitude that is pleasing to God.

In Christ -rbanks

S
sermonindex

rbanks, your humility and candor are very much respected by me.

You make make some points that can remind us to be guarded in our approach in dealing with these issues. As you can tell, I am passionate about the truth of the gospel and have seen first hand the damage going beyond scripture can do. I try to stay under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (and fail many times in imperfection) and I know that the only way I can continue to learn is to keep praying for wisdom and discernment and making time for Christ.

C
Christinyou

Amen brothers,

1 Corinthians 1:23-31 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. ((((But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.))))

In Christ: Phillip

D
dohzman

Now that's an interesting insight on the damsel. I never saw it that way but it does fit, doesn't it?. I think I'll spend some time on that one.

D
dohzman

rbanks wrote:

The one thing God put in my Spirit so loud and strong was not to depart from the word. Everything we do must be from the Word of God by His Spirit.


Great insight!

R
rbanks

Thanks for all your posts brethren and thoughtful for words,

Here is something else to think about concerning the damsel -

Ac 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Ac 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Ac 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I always try to interpret scripture within context. If you notice scripture before and after you will see that a spiritual work had begun in that area and it says, we were going to prayer when a certain damsel (possess with a spirit divination and had brought her masters much gain by soothsaying) met us (more than just Paul) . It says the same followed Paul and us. It also says she cried saying, these men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way unto salvation. Now notice this, the scripture says she did this many days and none of the men of God said a word to her for many days. Don’t you also wonder why they let this go on for many days?

Is there not something more to learn from this, how all the men did nothing for days? Now we know these were men of God and were not enjoying this at all. I believe these men did nothing without being led by the Spirit and that means putting up with a work of the devil until the time God moved upon them. You see brethren, God knew and I believe revealed to them that her masters were going to cause a ruckus when they cast out that spirit in her and that would harm the work of God going on. But notice it was Paul who after many days was grieved to the point of action and that what ever it was going to cost them, the Spirit of God was moving on Him to cast it out of her. He spoke directly to the Spirit and never said anything to the woman which is amazing. She was totally possessed and He freed her, praise God. Brethren if we are to learn anything, it is that true apostles never act on their own about anything, but they are moved against the powers of darkness when the Holy Spirit of power moves on them to do so.


C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


KrispyKrittr, about this,


"How do you "mark & avoid"... how do you warn others... if you dont name names? Paul named names. He named the names of those who were deceiving the believers in the churches he was writing to."

As you brought out, the examples we have are in private letters written to congregations and to individuals. The people involved knew each other personally.

He was not standing in public places making accusations.


In Acts 13 and 16, the Apostle is speaking to people that he is looking at in the face.

He is not, for instance, spending hours upon hours talking about people on internet forums, who cannot speak for themselves or answer their accusers charges. Or even know they are being accused.


S
sermonindex

As you brought out, the examples we have are in private letters written to congregations and to individuals. The people involved knew each other personally.

I dont consider letters written to congregations to be "private". I believe that would be "public". Add to the fact that Paul was merely the instrument... the Holy Spirit wrote that letter... and I'm quite certain that the Holy Spirit knew that these names would be broadcasted thru-out the world and in the heavens for all eternity.

He was not standing in public places making accusations.

This is speculation. You cant say that with any certainty. My guess is that if Paul (thru the Holy Spirit) had no problem naming names in a letter that was to be read publically... he probably had no problem naming the names verbally in front of that gathering of people.

You may still contend that this was not public, but private, because it involved a "congrrgation". Well, let's say you sin or teach a false doctrine... and the next week your preacher gets up in front of the congregation of 600 people... and names you by name and exposes you... I doubt you will think this isnt public.

He is not, for instance, spending hours upon hours talking about people on internet forums, who cannot speak for themselves or answer their accusers charges. Or even know they are being accused.

First off... you are now accusing. Hmmm... now thats interesting.

Secondly... you are niave if you think these teachers and folks that are discussed here dont know what the accusations are. They do. For some of them the accusations have been leveled against them for years and years... and by discernment groups that are very open about it.

These people CAN and DO speak for themselves, and do attempt to answer their accusers. Many times they answer their accusers by condemning them to hell... as Benny Hinn does.

And there is nothing preventing these people from signing up for this forum and joining the conversation.

So no, I disagree with you. Todd Bentley is aware of the accusations against him. Benny Hinn is aware of the accusations agaisnt him.

But see... it's not about accusations. I've never accused Benny Hinn of anything that his own words havent proven. It's different for me to come here and say "Benny Hinn is an adulterer" when I have no proof of that. But when Benny Hinn teaches there are really 9 persons of the godhead, not 3... and I quote his teaching on that... and compare it to the Bible... thats not accusing... thats [b]exposing[/b]... and that's quite a bit different.

Krispy

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


KrispyKrittr,

you said,


"I dont consider letters written to congregations to be "private"."


But they were.


If a man stands outside a mailbox and reads mail that doesn't belong to him, he will be considered a criminal.


The same is true for the mail that comes to a church or a buisness.

And this is especially true as it pertains to the very public nature of these forums, which are being read in different parts of the world. [b]They are public places.[/b]


You also said,


"Add to the fact that Paul was merely the instrument... the Holy Spirit wrote that letter... and I'm quite certain that the Holy Spirit knew that these names would be broadcasted thru-out the world and in the heavens for all eternity."

Excellent point.


He wasn't firing off his mouth, or pen, on his own...


The Lord Jesus said,


[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]


Also, you said,


"...he probably had no problem naming the names verbally in front of that gathering of people."

That's just it, these forums [b]are not a gathering of people[/b]. The things being posted here are being shot off into the dark to people we do not know and neither is it possible to know who will read them.

Also,


"...and the next week your preacher gets up in front of the congregation of 600 people... and names you by name and exposes you... I doubt you will think this isnt public."

And public rebuke of sin or error [b]in the setting of a congregation of believers[/b] is in scripture(1Ti 5:20). But internet forums are not congregations. We are not speaking face to face here. And those accused or rebuked are not present here to defend or speak for themselves.


Also,


"First off... you are now accusing. Hmmm... now thats interesting."


KrispyKrittr, what did I accuse you of?


About this,


"And there is nothing preventing these people from signing up for this forum and joining the conversation."

Is that reasonable? Why should anyone do that? Is it anyone's responsibility to run over all the earth to defend themselves?

Also,

"...when Benny Hinn teaches there are really 9 persons of the godhead, not 3... and I quote his teaching on that... and compare it to the Bible... thats not accusing"


And I don't think there is anything wrong with challenging that either.

But this topic is about speaking evil of people. Not correcting doctrine.

My reponse to you was in regards to your refrence to Romans 16:17. And specifically then how it could or could not be applied to these forums.

Chris

C
cthom

Here is David Wilkerson's message that was referred to earlier in this thread:

THE REPROACH OF THE SOLEMN ASSEMBLY
David Wilkerson
(Transcribed from the tape. Sermon preached at Times Square Church, New York, USA on April 11, 1999)
The message I am going to preach to you this morning, I am afraid, will cause maybe a handful of people never to come back to this church again. I mean it. I am not trying to be theatrical. It’s because I know that there are some people who are still in this Body, who come to Times Square Church, who are involved in the kind of thing I am talking about, because they have handed me tapes and books. I know they are involved in the kind of things that I want to expose this morning with the help of the Holy Ghost.
I want to talk to you about “The Reproach of the Solemn Assembly”.
Let’s go to Zephaniah the third chapter. Folks, this is serious business this morning and I want you to pray that the Lord will give me the brokenness to preach this the way He wants it preached - not out of arrogance, but out of brokenness before the Lord. There is something that is burning in my heart. I have been asking God to let me deal with this for a long time. And He has released me to do so this morning.
Zephaniah 3:18. This is an amazing prophecy by the prophet Zephaniah: “I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of this was a burden”.
“Heavenly Father, I know that You have burnt this into my soul, and that I’ve got to have a broken spirit and a contrite nature - that this is not preached in any kind of arrogance or self-centredness. Lord, You are going to accomplish a purpose this morning. I ask You to anoint me in a special way. Let the fire of God come forth this morning and ignite the word of the Living God. Don’t let any of us try to put away or put off anything that is heard or spoken from this pulpit this morning. Lord, I am asking that You will give me the courage to speak it right and boldly. And I pray Lord that You deal with any of these issues that are in this church this morning that we are dealing with. I pray in Christ’s Name. Amen.”
“I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden” (Zephaniah 3:18).
Now this is a dual prophecy by Zephaniah. It has to do with the children of Israel (that is Jerusalem) and also with spiritual Zion (which is the church of Jesus Christ of the last day). First of all, he was speaking to Jews that God was going to gather together, who had been dispersed to all the nations. But he was only going to bring back those who had a broken heart for the sad condition of Israel, who carried a burden for restoration, who (were burdened) over the sins of God’s apostate people. And He would remember all who carried the reproach of all the shame, all the blasphemy, all the horrible things that were going on in God’s house - those who shared the burden, all those who were sorrowful and grieving in heart over the condition of the Body. He said, ‘I am going to gather you’. And He made great promises to these. I’ll show you what they are in a moment.
This prophecy is primarily for the church of Jesus Christ in the last days. In the Old Testament, the children of Israel were called to their festivals for seven days. On the eighth day was the solemn assembly. That was when they put everything aside and focused worship and praise to the Heavenly Father. The Scripture says, “On the eighth day you shall have a solemn assembly.” You’ll find this solemn assembly all through the Old Testament, representing the congregation that is separated unto God needing to meet the Lord. This is the church of Jesus Christ in the last days.
According to Zephaniah, the house of God in the last days is going to be under reproach. And the Hebrew word here means “shame” and “disgrace”. There is going to be shame and disgrace in the house of God. Now, we are not talking about the backward, liberal, modern church. I am not talking about the “……. Church” – the church that has recently taken the cross down saying, “Jesus is in all of us and we are the cross!” That’s a church that glorifies homosexuality and abortion and is an absolute apostate church. I am not talking about a church where the minister doesn’t believe in Christ anymore, doesn’t believe in heaven, doesn’t believe in hell. I am not talking about the “…….Church”, the apostate church, the homosexual denomination.
Some of the worst blasphemy in the world is not coming from atheists. It is coming from the pulpits and the pens of backslidden, ungodly preachers. We are not talking about that kind of church. That is not the solemn assembly. So save your grief. I don’t shed a tear and I have no burden for that kind of church. The Lord said that on the judgment day, He is going to deal with that kind of church. We can pray for them, but we are not to spend any of our grief on that which is not really the church.
According to Zephaniah, God is looking for a people who will sorrow and grieve over the reproach that is being fostered on the church of Jesus Christ in these last days.
I am talking about the church that was born at Pentecost. I am talking about the church that was born in the teaching of the apostle Paul and the apostles - the church born in the doctrine of the Godhead of Jesus Christ. That church, that born-again church is under attack. That born-again church is suffering reproach.
It has been prophesied that in this day of reproach, of shame and disgrace, God is going to raise up a holy remnant who are going to grieve and weep over this defilement - a people to whom the reproach of it has become to them a burden.
“I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly,” God says, “I am going to have a remnant who are not going to sit idly by when all of these things invade the church. I am going to have a people that are not be satisfied with going their merry way and just ignore what is happening, as charlatans and money-mad prophets are coming into the house of God and destroying everything in sight.” No. He says, “I am going to gather a people who grieve over this. I am going to have a people who have taken this as a burden. They’re not going to be complacent any more.”
If you truly love the Lord and you love His church, you cannot look honestly at what is happening today (and I am going to name these reproaches this morning), and if after you hear what I have to say about this reproach, you can walk out of this church and just say, “Well, I just thank God for Matthew 16:18 – The gates of hell can not going to prevail against the church - I am not going to worry about it. God has everything under control” – that’s not enough. God uses people to perform His work. He doesn’t send angels. Angels weep over it, but God doesn’t use angels to accomplish His purposes. He uses burdened, broken-hearted, weeping men and women.
The prophet Joel cried out, “Call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land to the house of the Lord your God and cry unto the Lord. Alas, for the day of the Lord is at hand. As a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.” Joel is saying, “Judgment is at the door.” Jesus is coming. The Day of the Lord is at hand. Wake up elders, wake up pastors, wake up shepherds, take a look at the church. Get the burden. Carry it.
Now, why should we take on the burden of the reproach of the solemn assembly?
Joel said because there’s a rotten seed being planted. A gospel is being preached that is withering everything that is in sight. Everything that is green and godly and pure is being withered. He said the seed is rotten under the clods, the corn is withered, the storehouses of the right gospel are barren and desolate. There is a famine of hearing the pure word of the Lord. The cattle (in other words, the sheep, the congregations) are perplexed, because there is no pasture. The flocks are desolate and hungry. The rivers are drying up. A strange fire is devouring the pastures. And if you listen to Ezekiel, he is saying that the shepherds are trampling down the good pastures and eating the best for themselves.
Joel 2:15: He cries, “Gather together the congregation, the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep in sorrow”. Get the burden. Cry. Pray, “O God, spare Your people. Don’t give Your holy church to reproach. Don’t let the heathen rule over your flock.”
Now, what is this reproach of the solemn assembly? What are the shameful, disgraceful things that are happening in the church of Jesus Christ today?
First of all it is the rotten seed that is being preached by covetous shepherds.
This is known as the prosperity gospel. This is one of the greatest reproaches that the church of Jesus Christ has ever perpetuated since Christ. This perverted gospel is poisoning multitudes in China, Africa and all over the world. It is an American gospel invented and spread by rich American evangelists and pastors.
It alarms me that so many people can hear the tapes and see the videos that are coming out of these prosperity conferences and not weep over them, and not get the burden for what is happening to the church. This poison has spread all over the world. Cuba is about to open and they are itching to get in there right now with their prosperity gospel to tell them, "You have been poor enough. Now God wants all Cubans to be rich."
This past week I was given a video-tape, recently recorded this past January in Kenneth Copeland's meetings. And I listened to the speakers and I was dumbfounded.
Folks, if you read the New Testament, you will find that Paul the apostle named those he believed were false prophets. He warned - and he named their names. And I am telling you now, that if you can listen to what I am about to tell you and not be grieved, then you are blind, you are spiritually blind, you have a hard heart.
You know what a hard heart is - a heart with a shield on it - so that the gospel, the pure gospel cannot penetrate it. The mind has been so saturated with this unbalanced gospel that you cannot talk to many of them. You cannot preach the truth. You cannot show them anything else from the Scriptures because they have a shield over their hearts - hardhearted.
Some of you will not receive this. If you have been feeding your soul on Copeland’s tapes, or Hagin’s tapes, you’ll not like what you hear.
But folks, I am a shepherd, I've been called by God. I made this church and this Body a promise: As long as we are in this pulpit, if we saw wolves in sheep's clothing coming to rob the flock, we would stand up and cry out against it. Now, it is up to you to do something about it.
And I say this with a broken heart. I have sat this week and listened to the speakers in the conference and I was so shocked, I was so hurt. Weeping, the burden of the Lord came on me and that is why I am preaching this message.
I quote word for word what was said. First of all, all the speakers could hardly get by because all the people were running up and stuffing their pockets with money. The reason they do that is because of a new doctrine that has just come out that says, "If you want to be blessed, you have to find the most blessed evangelist or pastor you can find because he that has been given much‚ receiveth much. He that has little, even that which he has will be taken from him. You find the most blessed prosperous preacher and if you give him money, then you will be blessed. The more blessed is he who gives to the most blessed.” - A pyramid scheme!! If these men were in the secular world, they would be in jail. Ponzi schemes! Pyramid schemes! The man at the top who appears to be the holiest and speaks the loudest - hundreds of people were running up to him until his pockets were bulging. The sinner says, "Is this the free gospel? Is this the gospel - dollar bills?
Listen to what was said. The speaker got up and said, "If a poor widow on welfare hands you five dollars, you better take it. Elijah took the widow's last meal. You are the anointed one, you deserve it, you take it.”
The same speaker said, "I live in a 8,000 square-foot house. I am going to build a bigger one now - one that King Solomon would be proud of. I just paid $15,000 for a dog. You see this gorgeous ring on my finger, I was in Jamaica and just paid $32,000 for it.” He said, “I want you to know that when the people in my town come past my mansion and they see my Rolls Royce sitting in the driveway, they know there is a God in heaven.”
Now you tell me that’s the gospel! You tell me you can't weep over that!
One of the speakers got up and said, "We made a covenant along with Brother Copeland that for the next year - 365 days - none of us are going to suffer for a single day. We will not know a moment of discouragement. We will never be sick or in need. We are going to enjoy all the blessings. We reject all suffering, all pain, all financial problems."
That is fine if you are on the top of the heap.
Here is what grieves me most. This was preached: “The Holy Spirit can’t be poured out upon you till first you are in the money flow. Until you are prospering the Holy Ghost cannot do His work.”
Think of it. How does this affect you? What does it do to your spirit when you see poor people who are living from pay check to pay check and suddenly he says, "Run for the money and keep on running." And people are running wildly everywhere and they say as they run, "They are claiming the riches".
Then I see people slithering like snakes out of their seats onto the floor. I see the evangelist going up and “Hiss, hiss…” - hissing like a snake - and people falling everywhere. Folks, what is going on?
The reproach of the solemn assembly! Do you know what the prophet called them? He said they’re "greedy dogs, ungodly watchmen." Folks, if you had the heart of God and the burden of the Lord, you would be crying out with Isaiah, "They are blind watchmen, ignorant, dumb dogs, sleeping, loving to slumber, yea, greedy dogs which can never have enough."
"I’ve got 8,000 square foot, but I am going to build one that King Solomon could live in”!! - Never getting enough!!
He said, "Shepherds that cannot understand, they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain from his quarter." Jeremiah spared no words. He said, "My people are lost sheep. Their shepherds have caused them to go astray."
Go to Ezekiel 34 please. Listen. You say, "Pastor, you have no right to speak so strongly on this subject." If you think I'm strong, you listen to Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 34,verses 1 through 10: “And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? Ye eat the fat, (He’s talking to shepherds) ye clothe you with the wool.”
You take the five dollars from a widow and you buy a 15,000-dollar dog. You take the pay-check from the widow and the poor and you tell them that they do not have enough faith - that that is why they are not prospering. And you take the very wool from off the back of the sheep.
“The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost.”
You are not after souls, you are after money.
“But with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. Tthey were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill. My flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord, As I live, saith the Lord God, Surely because My flock became a prey, and My flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did My shepherds search for My flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not the flock. Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord, Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I am against the shepherds and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more, for I will deliver My flock from their mouth that they may not be meat for them any more”.
I am going to deliver my flock from the teeth of these men. My God! Help us!
Number Two. The misrepresentation of the blessed Holy Ghost.
What a reproach! This is the worst reproach that should make us fall on our faces – the way and the manner in which the Holy Ghost is being represented to the whole world. Sad to say there is so little discernment left in the church among so many pastors and even church leaders, that they don’t even know when the Holy Ghost is being misrepresented or blasphemed. There are thousands of Christians who go to church, they go to crusades and healing crusades and they see things that they think is the Holy Ghost and they don’t even know. They’re clapping and they’re praising God, while a man stands there blaspheming and misrepresenting the Holy Ghost - and they don’t even know it.
Entire charismatic denominations, including the Assemblies of God, are being torn apart, literally torn apart by pseudo-revivals. All kinds of things are happening. And there is something new being introduced almost every week. And the leaders don't know whether to embrace it or to curse it. They don't know what to do. Pastors write to us. We get letters from hundreds and hundreds of pastors from all over the world. They say, "What is right and what is wrong? Where are the leaders? Where is somebody to tell us?”
Today, in what is called “Revivals”, things are happening that are attributed to the Holy Ghost that cannot be found in Scripture. Anything that cannot be found in this Book has to be rejected outright. It has to be totally rejected.
I weep when I see these videos that are sent to me from all over the country - whole groups of bodies jerking out of control, falling on the floor, laughing hysterically, staggering around like drunkards, rising like snakes, howling like wild animals. We have evangelists who stand and blow upon people to knock them down - as if the breath of the Holy Ghost is now incarnated him. He throws his (“designer”) jacket at people and says, “That is the hand of the Lord.”
Now a new gospel has just hit South America. Folks, it is very rude and crude, but I have to tell you. It’s the newest thing now.
When you get into this kind of thing, when you get away from the parameters of Scripture, when you just get up and say: "Oh, it is a new thing. God is doing a new thing? I don't understand it. It is not in the Scripture, but I don't want to stand against the Holy Ghost". Folks, if it is not in this Book, you must stand up against it.
And now the "new thing" is that you can't enter the kingdom of God except you come as a little babe. And now the people come with diapers under their outer clothing so that they can defecate and urinate in the meetings! This is the new thing. Folks, where does it end?
A pastor said he heard a preacher the other day say, “Is it come down to this, that one day some evangelist stands up and says, ‘I've got a revelation from the Lord. It is time to add Mary to your worship’”. That is what it is going to come to.
An evangelist calls himself the Holy-Ghost-Bartender. He says, "Belly up to the bar and take a drink of the Holy Ghost." And they call it drinking the new wine. And folks, I hear ringing in my ears the prophet that said, "The day of the Lord is at hand. Wickedness abounds. Weep between the porch and the altar. Put on sackcloth. Fast and mourn for the backsliding of my people."
Jesus is about to come and the masses are unreached. When I see Christians belly up to what is called “The Holy Ghost bar”, staggering like drunkards, Joel’s words come to me loud and clear “Awake you drunkards, and weep all you who are drinking new wine because the harvest in the fields is perished.”
He said, souls are dying by the thousands. All over the world people are dying. What are you laughing about? Anything that is of the Holy Ghost must work anywhere on the face of the earth. You have to be able to take it into the most vile, wicked places. You have got to take it to the poor nations. You have to take it to the dregs of humanity and it has to work there. It can't work just in prosperous America. It has to work everywhere on the face of the earth.
I dare these men to take this gospel, the laughing gospel, into the Balkans now. Go into those refugee camps where wives are crying because they saw their husbands shot. Their daughters have been raped. Their children are hungry. They have lost their homes and they are homeless. Go in there and ask them to "Belly up to the bar. The Holy Ghost wants you to laugh.” And this so-called “revival” is coming to Madison Square Garden (New York) this summer (Summer of 1999). Knowing what you know about the Scripture, carrying the grief and the burden for the solemn assembly, how can you even conceive of embracing such a doctrine?
Let me tell you who is laughing. The world, the ungodly, the heathen. It has become a spectacle. In a time so close to the coming of the Lord, when the church of Jesus Christ ought to be shut away in a secret closet of prayer, where it ought to be weeping for the lost, where it ought to have the desire to forsake all and follow Jesus, where there should never be a mention of the dollar bill - the American god, the American idolatry - we have the world looking at this foolishness. And do you know what they are thinking now? That the Holy Ghost is a Circus-Ringmaster. It is a charismatic circus!
I don't care what anybody thinks any more. I don't care if people drop off the mailing list. I do care for their souls. I care for the fact that many are into this blindness. But I have a duty before God to stand before the congregation that He has called me to minister to and warn you and tell you that these are the reproaches of the solemn assembly. And the Bible says that you are to be sorrowful about it. He said the elders are to be sorrowful about it, the congregation, the pastors, the ministers and the evangelists. And we should be praying down these strongholds.
Finally, the reproach of downgrading depravity in the church.
Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil, that put darkness for light and light for darkness. They put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Jeremiah 23:14: “I've seen in the prophets a horrible thing. They commit adultery, they walk in lies, they strengthen also the hands of evildoers and none returns from his wickedness.”
Let me explain and illustrate: I got a letter this past week from a terribly irate Christian woman. She said, "My husband, who is supposed to be a Christian, is a big time gambler - in the millions." She said, "I've been so concerned with the crowd he is with and the danger he is in. And I thought, I'll urge him to go to the pastor. Brother Wilkerson, you will not believe what happened. I am so angry, I am so hurt and confused. I sent my multi-million-dollar-gambling husband to my pastor. He had heard about this man who had been in the church. I don’t know if he was enjoying the tithing of it or what! But he said, ‘I have searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and I can't find one thing in Scripture against gambling. I see no sin in it. Enjoy yourself.' Or words to that effect." She said she was dumbfounded. She said, "How can a man of God say such a thing to my husband?" She estimated that she’s just lost him – for good.
This is exactly what Jeremiah spoke of. The pastors strengthen the hands of evildoers that none doth return from his wickedness. And he explains why. They have downgraded depravity in their congregation. Why are they calling evil good and good evil; and bitter, sweet and sweet, bitter? Because he said, "The prophets themselves have committed adultery and are walking in lies." Any man that has got sin in his life is not going to get up and talk about sin in the camp, because he is convicted by his own adultery and his own sin in his own evil mind.
I am not painting every minister in the country with this brush. No. The majority of ministers are on fire for God. There are young ministers so clean and so pure in this wicked day and age. I've met many of them and I thank God for them. Even in this city, I've met some of the most righteous preachers I've ever met in my lifetime. And multitudes of ministers feel just like I feel this morning and they are looking and waiting for voices to expose that which is evil.
"If they had stood in My council and had caused My people to hear my words. If they were speaking what I really have in My heart. If they were speaking the mind of God, they should have turned the people away from their evil ways and from the evil of their doings".
You can tell a man of God. You can tell if a man knows the Lord and if he has been shut in with God.
God says, “I didn’t send them, I didn’t speak to them. They speak their own mind, out of their own imagination - out of the evil of their own hearts. They speak a vision of their own heart. I sent them not. I have not spoken to them. They say unto them that despise me, 'The Lord said, "You shall have peace” and they say unto every one that walks after the imagination of his own heart, “No evil shall come upon you. Don’t worry. Everything is OK.”’”
It used to be that sinful men who wanted to appease their conscience, went to the psychiatrist. Now they go to certain churches!
I believe like the Puritans - like the godly, holy Puritan pastors. I quote one: “A godly person has to be more deeply concerned, more burdened over the reproach of the church than any other evil in the world.” The reproach upon the solemn assembly should be the greatest sorrow to every one that loves Christ and His church. This should be the greatest sorrow in our hearts, these reproaches on His name and on His church.
Now you may be saying “Well Pastor Dave, I just don’t see it that way. I am of a more positive, mental attitude. You’ve got that more prophetic kind of thing like the Old Testament prophets. This may be your thing, but it is not my thing, because I see things brighter. I see the church as a great blessing. I believe God is going to bless His church. I believe the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”
I know all of that. I believe it with all of my heart. But what do I do about this Scripture? What do I do about the prophet Zephaniah who said that in the last days God is going to raise up a people and gather them together and they are going to have a sorrowful heart over the conditions. And they are going to bear the reproach. They are going to take the reproach of Christ, they are going to know the heart of God.
You get into the presence of God, you shut yourself in with the Lord in diligent prayer, and He is going to burden your heart. You are going to weep over the condition of the church. He is going to show you the condition. He is going to open your eyes to it. “Who is as blind as My Servant? Who is deaf as the messenger I sent. They see many things, but they never observe.” In other words, they don’t do anything about it. He says, “You don’t even hear.”
Now folks, I want to show you a Scripture that I didn’t understand until this past week when the Lord put this message on my heart.
Go to Zephaniah again, the third chapter. I am going to close here in just a moment.
I want to prove to you that this matter of taking on the burden of the reproach of the solemn assembly is so close to the heart of God. It is so much His mind. I fought demonic powers to get to this pulpit this morning to preach this. I had the devil hound me and say, “I am going to make you pay for this – your health, your family and everything else.” I listened to his hundred lies and had to overcome them through faith.
I’ll be under attack. But I want you to know that I am on such powerful, Scriptural grounds. And I am telling you right now that while I am preaching, the Lord Jesus Himself is rejoicing and dancing. And when you take your stand, when you take on this burden of the Lord, and you take on that burden by fasting and praying over it, our weapons are mighty through God in pulling down the strongholds. These are strongholds in the church. You have got to stand up. We need to do it corporately, we need to do it privately. Every child of God needs to be praying against this, that God will first open the eyes of the false prophets who are preaching this, open their eyes, deliver them from this snare, and be merciful to them, be kind to them and that everybody that is in this snare will be delivered.
We need to be praying that. But more than that. Don’t touch it. Don’t go near it. Leave it alone. Because it will grab you if you are not strong in the Lord. You are weak. New believer, if you go in out of curiosity, it will grab you, because it appeals to everything of the flesh. Until you know how to deal with the flesh in the power of the Holy Ghost, stay away from it.
The Puritans said, “Grief is the daughter of love.” In other words, if you really love Jesus, you’re going to share His grief.
Let me show you this scripture in Zephaniah 3:17 “The Lord thy God, in the midst of thee is mighty; He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will rest in his love, He will joy over thee with singing.” Why? Because “He will gather those who are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.” He is singing over those who share His burden.
And I stand before you now on a rock without one iota of fear in me. I have delivered the mind of God. And I tell you now in the power of this wonderful word in the prophet Zephaniah “The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will rest in his love, He will joy over thee with singing.” Why? Because He has found a people who are sorrowful over the things that sorrow His heart, who carry the burden that He carries - the reproach of the solemn assembly.
I tell you in closing, with everything in me. You and I need to be praying that God will raise up leaders, that He will raise up voices, fearless voices, heart-broken voices that have nothing to prove, who stand up against this, because of where it is going to end. And let me tell you where this is going to end. Unless we begin to pray, it’s going to end in a “love-trap”. This is what they are saying now. You’ll hear these people sound so loving, “We love everybody. It doesn’t matter what you preach. It doesn’t matter whether you are in prosperity. It doesn’t matter what your gospel is - or anything else. God is love. Let us all get together and embrace one another.”
But God says, "How can two walk together unless they be agreed". How can you walk with them, when you don't agree with their un-Scriptural practices. You cannot. That is a love-trap. They say, "Don't condemn anybody. Don't judge anybody." Oh no, no, no. That’s not what the Bible says. It says we are to judge with righteous judgment and to reprove and reprove with all longsuffering.
I am not on a soap-box. I am on a Rock. God is trying to save you, church.
I don’t know what they do with the Scripture where Jesus said, “I know you are so poor, but you are really rich”. What are the riches of God in Christ Jesus? The peace of God, the wisdom of God, the nearness of Christ. All that is in Christ is ours.
One of the pastors (not at this convention I mentioned), was trying to tell his congregation that that seamless robe of Jesus was one of the most expensive robes you could buy. Isn’t that something? He would bring even Jesus in to this doctrine. Folks beware, beware. Have I scared you?
Are you ready to take on the burden of the Lord? You can’t do that in your own flesh. You have to do as I have done. I have gone alone with God and I said, “Lord, tell me what hurts You. I want to feel Your pain.” You know we preach a lot of love and grace and mercy in this church. The time has come now to call a solemn assembly.
Will you stand.
Let me tell you what the invitation is about this morning: If Times Square church is your church and if you believe what I preached this morning, then if you’ve got any of these tapes or books, get them out of your house. Don’t give them away. Burn them. If somebody invites you to go to these things, say, “I’m sorry. I don’t want a famine of the Word. And I don’t want my heart to wither and dry. I want the pure word of the Lord that will cause me to grow. I don’t want any message that is going to appeal to my flesh, or to foster covetousness in my spirit.”
Some of you who are here right now are saying, “Brother Wilkerson, I’m suffering financially and I need help, I need a miracle. O God does supply.”
God is a miracle working God. Yes. But He is going to do it only His way. Not by misappropriating and not by misusing the Scripture, not by taking it out of context, but by preaching a balanced message.
“Go and look at all the rich men in the Old Testament,” I have listened to them say, “Job was rich, Abraham was rich, Solomon was rich, David was rich. These were all men who were rich in the Old Testament.”
Well, take a look at Samuel on his donkey. Take a look at other men. Listen to Abraham. He says, “I don’t want any of this. I am looking for a city whose Builder and Maker is God.”
I don’t want a big house down here. I don’t want all these things. I am looking to get home. I’m looking to be with my Saviour and my Lord. Hallelujah.
Prayer:
“Heavenly Father, You have truly borne me up this morning. Otherwise I would have been weak-kneed, and not been able to stand. I thank you Holy Spirit. Lord, if there has been one word I have spoken out of order, forgive me and cleanse me. But Lord, I thank You for the Word. I believe in my heart that You rejoice, when we take a stand against those things that grieve Your heart, things that are so contrary to the Word of the Lord and contrary to Scripture. Lord, if we get away from Scripture we are on dangerous ground. Lord, keep us in the Word. Lord, keep us fastened to the Word of God. Let us dig deep until we have discernment and we know what is right and what is wrong. Lord, give us pastors and shepherds who will take a stand and who will keep their flock, Lord, from being swallowed up by wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
Now I am going to give an invitation this morning for those who first of all have a backslidden heart, who say, ‘Pastor Dave, I don’t have the fire burning in my heart.’ If I have preached the word of the Lord this morning, He will confirm it. And the way He confirms it is by bringing conviction to your heart. First of all He will convict you on the word that you heard. If you have been lusting after a gospel that would give you the keys to get rich, or to be prosperous, I am telling you, you need to repent. If your heart has been going out to that kind of thing, “I have tried faith. I have tried everything, I have got to get something in my hand now to teach me or show me how to get money.” If money is the object, if prosperity is the object, you have missed the cross, you have missed the gospel. You have got to repent. Come up here and repent say, “God forgive me. I am going to keep my eyes on Jesus, and on the cross. And come what may, I am not going to go that way.”
We have had a number walk out. I am sorry for that. But you are here and God is doing something. And sometimes still waters run the deepest. And He is doing a deep work in our hearts of conviction and speaking to us. He is speaking to me - to get rid of my timidity, to speak prophetically when He speaks, and not to be ashamed to expose what is evil.
I am asking everybody in this congregation if you are not right with God, if there is a coldness in your heart, or if you are not saved, to come forward. I want you to say right now, “I don’t want to be deceived by the devil.” There may be other kinds of deception - somebody talking to you on the phone, trying to either gossip to you or speak some word of death that gets into your ear and into your heart and your mind. Say, “O God, I don’t receive this. I come now and I repent. Give me clean ears. Give me a clean heart.”
If there is sin in your life that has bound you, say, “I want to be free from this sin.” Nobody needs to know what it is. Come because the Holy Ghost draws you. The Lord wants to change your life. He wants to work the miracle in your life that you have been praying for - a freedom and deliverance from lust, freedom and deliverance from false doctrine, and to strengthen you in the Lord. If you feel you are weak this morning, you need to be strengthened by the Holy Ghost.
Come. The Holy Spirit is here to meet every need that’s in your life - every need in your body, soul and spirit. He is here to minister to you. I can’t minister to you. The Holy Spirit has to do that. The Holy Spirit has to do the work and He is here. He is willing and He is waiting right now for you to give Him your confidence and your faith. That’s all He is asking of you right now – to believe that if you confess your sins, He will forgive you, that He hears the cry of your heart and sees your sincere desire to follow Him. If you cry out now for power to live the overcoming life, He will give you that power. That is the work and the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible says, “He who has begun a good work in you, will finish it.” He’ll continue it and He’ll finish it till the day of the Lord. He is going to keep you till Jesus comes. Isn’t that wonderful? Say this, “The Holy Ghost is going to keep me until Jesus comes.”
I want you to pray with me this prayer from the innermost part of your being:
“Jesus, I come to you now in my need. I can’t solve my problems. I can’t forgive myself. I can’t change myself, but You can change me. You can forgive me. You can give me a new heart. Lord I confess that I need You. I confess that I can’t make it on my own. And I give You my heart, my sins, my doubts, my backslidings, my lust, I give it all. Now Holy Spirit, I believe the word. The word tells me that if I will believe and call on the Holy Ghost, He will come and inhabit my body and give me power to live for Christ and to overcome the dominion of sin. I believe and I receive. Now in the name of the Lord Jesus, I’m secure in Christ, according to His holy Word.”
Now let me pray for you:
“Father I pray that you break the chains that bind. I come against every spirit of lust, every habit that is evil, everything unlike You Jesus, and every preoccupation with self. Lord I come against false doctrines. I come against those doctrines that lay hold of the mind that cause people to believe a lie to be the truth. I bind that in the Name of Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Lord, take down the shield that has covered the hard hearts and Lord, soften their hearts. Give them a heart of flesh. Let the sword of the Lord and the arrows of the truth penetrate their hearts and bring healing. Take out the poison of the system now, Lord. And Father, we pray for Your church. Lord, we know You are going to prevail, we know there is going to be a glorious church that will come forth without spot or wrinkle. We know the devil will never defeat God’s eternal purposes. Lord Jesus, give us the burden of the Lord. Let us carry this burden, because You said, “I will gather them that sorrow for these things.” Lord, we ask You for that godly sorrow. And even in sorrow we rejoice. We have that rejoicing because we know that You are going to prevail against all that is unlike You in Your house. Lord we love Your church, because it is Your body. And we love it and we pray for it. And Lord, we will stand with You in it. God, give this church that burden we pray. Let Times Square church be a church that carries the burden of the Lord. Hallelujah, thank you Jesus.”
Give the Lord thanks.

(For private circulation only)
Copyright © 1999 - World Challenge, Inc., Lindale, TX, USA
The audio (MP3) file of this sermon can be downloaded from: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4473

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