I know this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway. Is God all knowing, does he know whats going to happen before it happens, and if so is'nt that contrary to free will as far as salvation is concerned?
God is the source of all knowledge, truth, and
wisdom. In His wisdom; He has a plan and purpose
for any one who will seek His truth. Nothing
happens that He is not aware and knowing; and
He knows us to the intents and secrets of our
heart. His understanding is infinite; His ways
surpassing searching out. If a man will not
yield to His sovereign will; then he will reap
the fruit of his selfish ways and suffer the
consequences!!
Alright, then what is Gods sovereign will? I really don't care that much about this topic, I was asked by a friend to ask some christians about this topic. This seems to be a place where "christians" hang out, so I just thought I would ask. Is that o.k.?, or should I just take it somewhere else? I'm not trying to start an arguement just needed some answers that's all.
Gods foreknowledge does not interfere with man's responsibility. God so love the world that whosoever believes in His Son Jesus would not have to perish but could have everlasting life
rbanks wrote:
Gods foreknowledge does not interfere with man's responsibility. God so love the world that whosoever believes in His Son Jesus would not have to perish but could have everlasting life
Thank you for the friendly answer rbanks. O.k. but if God already knows in advance whos going to heaven and whos going to hell then how do we really have a free will?
Hi stromboli...
I think that the fallacy in such a question is that we don't fully understand either the nature of God or the nature of Eternity.
Eternity, in my estimation, is a completely different realm than our universe (where time operates as a control). God sits upon a throne in Eternity. As such, He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, God is the "Alpha and Omega" and the "Beginning and the End." He is Eternal. This is how He knew us before we were born...because He sits in Eternity.
I've heard the argument that God sits in Eternity already -- with those who were born BEFORE us and those who will be born AFTER us as well. In other words, when we die -- we pass through the realm of time and into the realm of timelessness known as Eternity. This is why we can "sleep with our fathers" but also go straight to Judgment. At that meeting -- EVERYONE (ALL) will stand before the Creator of all things and an account of our lives will be revealed (as written in the books). Our standing in Eternity is reflective solely upon the appearance of our name in that Book of Life (which sits in Eternity). Our name appears in the Book of Life as a condition of our relationship with Christ within this temporary realm called "life."
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways. Rather, He simply needs for us to trust Him in all things. Believe me: There is no contradition in His ways. What seems like a contradiction to us is actually just the limitation of our own understanding.
Thus, I feel that we should focus on those things of which we are sure. For instance, "[i]Whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved
:-)
Ive never heard it put that way. Alot to think about. We were talking about how when satan was created how that the bible says god made him perfect and he was perfect until iniquity was found in his heart. The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi stromboli...I think that the fallacy in such a question is that we don't fully understand either the nature of God or the nature of Eternity.
Eternity, in my estimation, is a completely different realm than our universe (where time operates as a control). God sits upon a throne in Eternity. As such, He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, God is the "Alpha and Omega" and the "Beginning and the End." He is Eternal. This is how He knew us before we were born...because He sits in Eternity.
I've heard the argument that God sits in Eternity already -- with those who were born BEFORE us and those who will be born AFTER us as well. In other words, when we die -- we pass through the realm of time and into the realm of timelessness known as Eternity. This is why we can "sleep with our fathers" but also go straight to Judgment. At that meeting -- EVERYONE (ALL) will stand before the Creator of all things and an account of our lives will be revealed (as written in the books). Our standing in Eternity is reflective solely upon the appearance of our name in that Book of Life (which sits in Eternity). Our name appears in the Book of Life as a condition of our relationship with Christ within this temporary realm called "life."
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways. Rather, He simply needs for us to trust Him in all things. Believe me: There is no contradition in His ways. What seems like a contradiction to us is actually just the limitation of our own understanding.
Thus, I feel that we should focus on those things of which we are sure. For instance, "
[i]Whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved[/i] ." We shouldn't try to reason whether or not we are part of some "predestined" group -- because we could never know such a thing on this side of Eternity! Rather, we just need to realize the need to call upon the Name of the Lord and to remain in His presence!:-)
I have thought this same thought before but as I began to read the bible about God being all powerful, all present, and all knowing I began to magnify God’s greatness. I began to realize that He was Just, Holy, and Love. I saw that God wants to be loved and He gave man freewill to love and obey or to disobey. God’s predestination is in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. It has been said and is true that if one fails to plan then he has planed to fail. God never fails. God always plans everything, nothing ever surprises God.
Everyone because of the fall is on their way to hell, and the bible says the angels of God rejoice over one sinner who repents. It is not a decision about who goes to hell or Heaven. God wants everybody to accept His Son and what His Son did for them on the cross so they can be saved and be in Heaven with Him.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God predestinates according to his foreknowledge, and this gives great hope to one who is a believer in Christ. God does not predestinate some to go to hell and some to go to Heaven. The bible says hell was created for the devil and his angels.
When Adam (man) fell to sin by disobedience he was subject to Satan and destined to hell with him. But you see God had a plan because of his foreknowledge to still give all mankind an opportunity to still love Him and obey Him. The price of our redemption cost more than any of us could pay, but God’s Son paid the price with his blood on the cross for man’s sin (disobedience). What great love this is for all mankind. God’s foreknowledge is perfect and he has made sure that all those (several thousand years and so on in advance) who believe and obey his Son will have everlasting Life.
You see God does not violate man’s freewill because He doesn’t want robots to serve Him but people loving Him. Because of sin, man is bound and his will is not free but when one hears the gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts him and man begins to yield then God can help him, and begin to free his will to believe and be saved. God gives man a hatred for sin and a love for God when he truly repents.
The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
Taken by surprise, no. You could get very well bogged down into this as many have and as you mentioned, you would imagine.
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways.
Indeed, nor does He intend to, that is what makes Him sovereign over all and I thank Him for it. If it was left up to us with our short-circuited wiring we would only have even more of our fallen heads teaching other fallen heads ... A couple thousand years of the same argument has not yet proven us to have 'figured this out' or reasonably explained it. If that wasn't proof enough ...
The answer is yes, He knows and no, it is not contrary to our responsibility.
crsschk wrote:The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
Taken by surprise, no. You could get very well bogged down into this as many have and as you mentioned, you would imagine.
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways.
Indeed, nor does He intend to, that is what makes Him sovereign over all and I thank Him for it. If it was left up to us with our short-circuited wiring we would only have even more of our fallen heads teaching other fallen heads ... A couple thousand years of the same argument has not yet proven us to have 'figured this out' or reasonably explained it. If that wasn't proof enough ...
The answer is yes, He knows and no, it is not contrary to our responsibility.
Pretty deep stuff.
The reason its so mind boggling to me is that if god doesnt know what will happen till it happens it would totally take the blame away from him and he becomes nothing but a good god. He cannot be looked at as a criminal who loves some and hates others and the blame shifts to us.
Consider that God is eternal and not bound by finite time as we humans are. He exists outside of time. Therefore, past, present, and future are all the same to Him from His perspective. Thus, God knows everything happening in the past, in the present, and the future at the exact same time. Everything is "present" to Him.
The reason its so mind boggling to me is that if god doesnt know what will happen till it happens it would totally take the blame away from him and he becomes nothing but a good god. He cannot be looked at as a criminal who loves some and hates others and the blame shifts to us.
The real question isn't if the future is set or not but rather what is it that sets the events of the future. Because God knows the future entirely that isn't the factor that sets the future and therefore robs you of any free will. No, your freedom is what sets the future to a great degree; therefore, your free will actions are meaningful and your willful interaction with God in relationship is meaningful as well.
There are some facts of the future that are going to occur simply because God has decided it to be so, the ultimate fate of the righteous and the wicked are an example. But that doesn't mean all the facts of the future are set that way. The future is fixed only in this regard: We are going to make particular decisions in the future that are acts of our own personal will, and that is what secures the future such that God can know particular things or facts about the future. Therefore we can call God omniscient because He knows all things.
In Christ,
Ron
this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway.
You seem to be alluding to a growing theological perspective called Open Theology. I, as well as most of the posters here would be opposed to its teaching, that if God grants free will to humans he must therefore be unable to know the future – or at least, all of it.
Rather than ramble, I will post a site that is loaded with information on the topic – likely more than you care to read. If anything, though, it will show you the enormity of the issue, and just how relevant your question is. You will also see that a lot of theologians have already been battling over this, and that is why there is so much information out there on it.
Diane
Interesting link Diane,
The author correctly anticipated my surprise at reading that author Philip Yancey is of the Open Theist persuasion.
MC
If God is not all knowing, then He doesn't even know with certainty what will happen even one second from now. That's a scary thought.
roadsign wrote:this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway.
You seem to be alluding to a growing theological perspective called Open Theology. I, as well as most of the posters here would be opposed to its teaching, that if God grants free will to humans he must therefore be unable to know the future – or at least, all of it.
Rather than ramble, I will post a site that is loaded with information on the topic – likely more than you care to read. If anything, though, it will show you the enormity of the issue, and just how relevant your question is. You will also see that a lot of theologians have already been battling over this, and that is why there is so much information out there on it.
Diane
I read about half of the paper and must say it gave me a little more insight ...
Of course the proponents of OT believe that they are rescuing the church from bad theology of the past – and to some extent that may be true. I would love for my hyper-Calvinist friend to read something about Open Theology – just so he sees where his rigid thinking leads – when people finally try to buck it.
MC, I was surprised too. Whether this is a recent development in Yancy’s theological views or not, I do not know. That might make a good topic of study. Certainly I don’t plan to toss out all his books, as there is good material in them.The author correctly anticipated my surprise at reading that author Philip Yancey is of the Open Theist persuasion.
This thread will not likely turn into 20 pages since we need enough posters on both sides of the issue to help keep it going (controversy seems to sustain discussions). However, I will post the last few paragraphs of the linked article – as food for thought.
The Benefits of Open Theology
It may seem strange after the last paragraph to list benefits of OT, however, since I fully believe that God is able to use all things to His glory, I list three.
1.\tOT puts into words what a lot of people already think. It might surprise us to read some paragraphs of Boyd's work aloud in our congregation and ask for a vote on its accuracy. I believe this is because OT is the logical conclusion of making a god in your own image. If you only think of God in terms of an exalted man this is what you get. It seems to me that this is part of the reason why the Lord takes such great pains to ask questions of His people like, "To Whom then will you liken Me?" (Isaiah 40:25). The tendency is to treat and think of God as a man, albeit a really large and generally good one ("the big guy upstairs"). But, special revelation is iconoclastic in the sense that it is continually exploding our false conceptions (idols?) of the Lord. OT can be a help in that somebody is finally saying what many already think. Now, we can take what they say and, as a teaching tool show the fallacy of it to our sheep.
2.\tOT ought to refine our theology and our hermeneutics. Church history has proven that the best heresies make for the best orthodoxy! OT asks some excellent questions of the Word and of our Calvinism. If you are like me, you do not enjoy studying topics like this and one of the main reasons is that it takes a lot of brain energy! We need prods like this, however, to get rid of some of the mush we carry around in our theological brains. Lord willing it will be replaced by a more biblically refined and crisper presentation of what is true. We can also use a good wake-up call on our approach to the text. The constant tension of any good interpreter is to let the text speak, while integrating what it says into the rest of our theology. This back and forth motion takes great care and time and all of us need to improve at it. We are not above the "fallacies" noted earlier!
3.\tI think the best thing about OT is that it deals a deathblow to Arminianism. Ware makes this quite clear in his work and so do the OT authors. OT is, in one sense, the logical conclusion or outworking of classic Arminianism. Free will and sovereignty are contradictory - on this the Open Theist and Calvinist agree! That is why the Arminian side has, in my opinion, offered nothing of substance in defence against OT. They have had the rug pulled out from under them. It may be that the Lord has "permitted" the sudden uprising of OT in order to demolish another pillar in the already shaky foundation of Arminianism.
Could there be some truth in these thoughts?
Diane
Quote -Diane
“Free will and sovereignty are contradictory - on this the Open Theist and Calvinist agree!” Qoute-
I believe all the studies of man have faults within them. Definitely the OT and Calvinists have faults within them.
The bible does not contradict itself, only men’s understanding does that. The Word of God states that man has a free will and it also says that God is sovereign.
Adam and Eve were both given a free will and placed in the garden by the sovereign God of all creation.
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer? Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true? These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about. Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
stromboli wrote:
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer? Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true? These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about. Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
Have you never heard of a parent asking a child a question already knowing the answer but wanting the child to answer truthfully?
God deals with man to where he is at, and relates to man accordingly.
We always get into trouble when we try to bring God down to our understanding, His ways are much higher than ours and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
rbanks wrote:
stromboli wrote:
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer? Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true? These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about. Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
Have you never heard of a parent asking a child a question already knowing the answer but wanting the child to answer truthfully?
God deals with man to where he is at, and relates to man accordingly.
We always get into trouble when we try to bring God down to our understanding, His ways are much higher than ours and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer?
And yet, if God didn’t know where Adam was, how would he have known where to go to ask the question to Adam? Why might God have asked him that question?
Have you never heard of a parent asking a child a question already knowing the answer but wanting the child to answer truthfully?
Just maybe God asked Adam the question in order to get Adam to own up to his own actions – and become aware that he was indeed trying to hide from God because he had done wrong. Confession is an important step towards repentance, is it not? This reminds me of God’s question to Cain before murdering Abel: “Why are you angry?”. God already knew why, but Cain needed to own up to his sinful thinking (confess) in order to repent - which he didn’t, and we know the outcome!
Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true?
These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about.
Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
Since Satan is a liar why do we need to assume that the world was his to give! Surely we do not wish to formulate any theology from HIS words! However, that is just the reference that Boyd uses in his Christus Victor motif– that Christ’s victory is all about defeating Satan’s rule over the cosmos - including the physical earth. Boyd presents this battle as dualistic - where Christ and Satan are equal rivals in an ongoing battle.
I believe that Boyd has elevated Satan and lowered God in order to support his dualism. This has huge ramifications theologically speaking. Sin and Christ's solution is put on the back burner (at least, that’s what I am sensing from reading his material).
The question needs to be asked: How then can anyone know, even God, what the final outcome will be? Why - just maybe Satan will win in the end?
Does that sound like Biblical thinking?
Diane
God did not turn the world over to Satan, he turned it over to man. He gave man the dominion, but man listened to Satan and disobeyed God and subjected himself to Satan and lost the dominion of this world to Satan.
The second man from Heaven regained what the first man (adam) lost. He has regained dominion over the earth also for all those who are in Christ.
It is obvious that people with all their theories don't understand God's sovereignty nor the free will he has given to his creation.
Sovereignty says God rules over all in the way He wants to.
Free will is saying creation has the choice of subjecting themselves to His Lordship.
All creation should fear the Most High God!!!
If Boyd is the originator of this type thinking than why are so many asking these questions having never read Boyd? I think these are questions that people have been asking for hundreds of years but its all been explained away by dead theology. Maybe this guy is one of the first to really bring this type thinking to the forefront but hes certainly not the first. Its just weird how that anytime people start thinking for themselves instead of someone else thinking for them the theologians slap a label on it and frame it up in a nice little box.
Where does it say we should fear the most high?
rbanks wrote:
God did not turn the world over to Satan, he turned it over to man. He gave man the dominion, but man listened to Satan and disobeyed God and subjected himself to Satan and lost the dominion of this world to Satan.The second man from Heaven regained what the first man (adam) lost. He has regained dominion over the earth also for all those who are in Christ.
It is obvious that people with all their theories don't understand God's sovereignty nor the free will he has given to his creation.
Sovereignty says God rules over all in the way He wants to.
Free will is saying creation has the choice of subjecting themselves to His Lordship.
All creation should fear the Most High God!!!
stromboli wrote:
Where does it say we should fear the most high?
Here is just a few scriptures for the Lord God is the Most High.
Leviticus 25:17 Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deuteronomy 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deuteronomy 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Deuteronomy 31:13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
Joshua 4:24 That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.
1 Samuel 12:14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
2 Kings 17:39 But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.
Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
You forgot the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So what is it that God fears? I'll let you find it. Read Deuteronomy chapter 32. Then we should fear what God fears?
Also for a more unbiased look at this theology you can simply look under wikepedia and search for open theism. Looks pretty good.
The only thing God fears, is for His Name sake, for His Honor, for His reputation when he is having to deal with man and his free will. Therefore He makes no mistakes.
The fact that God is all knowing and sovereign in his dealings with mans free will is that he knows how to act according to His names sake.
God does not communicate with man on the God level because man is a human and is living out his free will during his time on earth.
There is much to be understood about the greatness of God that our finite minds are incapable of grasping.
But you can choose to believe what you want to, and it will not change God at all, because your puny mind (compared to God’s mind) want reduce God down at all.
You can make God small and not all-knowing if you want to, because that will be your choosing and your dilemma to the peril of your own soul if you insist.
Choose whatever God you want to serve to the peril of your own soul, but as for me I will serve the Lord God almighty. The all-knowing, all-present, and all-powerful God and there is no other God.
Goodnight my friend for I am gone to bed, you can communicate with somebody else who has trouble with God being all-knowing because I don’t.
Wow! I guess Christ has a puny mind. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" "Thought it not robbery to be equal with God". Wow! does that mean I'm equal with God? That sounds kind of blasphemous. Also were "seated together with him in heavenly places" Not bad for a puny human being. I'm seated in heavenly places with God?
Also for a more unbiased look at this theology you can simply look under wikepedia and search for open theism. Looks pretty good.
I am just wondering why wikepedia could be considered an unbiased source? Anybody can enter anything they want into it.
Do you disagree with some points in the article link I posted, and if so, why? Also, the link I posted includes primary sources from those on the pro side. Did you read any of them? What do you think of all that?
By the way, I have enjoyed listening to Boyd’s sermons. Indeed they are not all bad. He certainly covers a lot of good points that have been neglecting – like the issue of nationalizing the church – wrapping the flag around the cross.
However, when his theological position leads to sermons on recycling as a means of winning back the cosmos from the devil……… mmmm. Did Jesus die to “save the earth”? Boyd believes so. I just don't see it in Scripture.
I wonder, are we merely replacing nationalism with environmentalism? That seems to me like just another flag around the cross!
.... back to God’s omniscience (all-knowing). If God is moved and affected by human suffering can he also be omniscient?
And now, after all that rambling, I realize that we're moving in several directions at once, and also I'm dialoguing with someone I really do not know. Stromboli, do you mind sharing a bit about yourself, your own spiritual faith journey, or whatever may relate? What has drawn you to SI? This may help draw us into focus.
Diane
Question; Where in scripture does it say that man has a free will?
I only see where scripture says that God's will is over all things.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Question; Where in scripture does it say that man has a free will?I only see where scripture says that God's will is over all things.
In Christ: Phillip
I only see where scripture says that God's will was disobeyed because man's free will chose not to obey. All the while man must choose this day Whom he will serve(Josh 24:15).
Quote:
"""I only see where scripture says that God's will was disobeyed because man's free will chose not to obey."""
Then why did God put two trees in the garden, with only one law? Tree of Life and Tree of Good and evil?
A proof test, maybe? Christ was already chosen to be in man. Before and slain From the foundation of the world. Why did not the slain also be before?
Quote: """Question; Where in scripture does it say that man does not have a free will?"""
It does not.
In Christ: Phillip
Then why did God put two trees in the garden? Tree of Life and Tree of Good and evil?Christinyou wrote:I only see where scripture says that God's will was disobeyed because man's free will chose not to obey.
A test, maybe? Christ was already chosen to be in man. Before and slain From the foundation of the world. Why did not the slain also be before?
In Christ: Phillip
Ridiculous!
Actualy, it is because God knew that man would choose to disobey and made amends before hand for what HE knew would transpire.
Only fools deny the One True God.
And only fools deny the One True God's Omniscience.
A better question, or rather the root of the question as to whether God knows all things is, 'why does God know all things'?
Isa. 46:9-11 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times,the things that are not yet done,saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counse from a far country: yea,I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."
Isa. 42:8,9 "I am the LORD:that is my name:and my glory will I not give to another,neither my praise to graven images. Behold,the former things are come to pass,and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."
Acts 15:13-18 "And after they were silent, James responded, saying, Men, brothers, hear me: Simon recounted how even as at first God oversaw to take a people out from among the nations for His name. And with this agree the Words of the prophets, as it has been written, After these things "I" will return and "will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen," "and I will build again the things which have been demolished," and I will set it up [Amos 9:11,12]
so as the rest of men may seek the Lord, "even all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who is doing all these things." [Amos 9:11,12]. All His works are known to God from eternity."
The three references above in His Own Word should suffice in muzzling the mouths of those dogs who bark out their blasphemous and vain mutterings.
Yet, it is well known that 'That Day' alone shall fit that eternal muzzle upon all His enemies who would rival for His Eternal Throne.
One writer comments on a couple of the verses above, "God’s knowledge is eternal.If God’s knowledge were not eternal, then he must have learned something at some time. And if he learned it, he must have previously been ignorant of it. And if he had been ignorant and learned something, why could he not forget some things after a while? However, God neither learns nor forgets. The phrase that refers to God as “declaring the end from the beginning” (Isa. 46:10), and the verse “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18) indicate the eternity of divine knowledge.
If God is indeed as the Bible describes him, with eternal self-knowledge, by which he creates and controls every particular in the world, obviously God’s knowledge depends on himself and not on created things. God’s knowledge is self-originated; he does not learn from any outside source. Note that Proverbs 8:22 says, “The Lord possessed me from the beginning of his way.” And the idea is repeated and reinforced in the immediately following verses. This shows that God did not learn about me from observing me. It does not say that God knows me from the beginning of my way, but from the beginning of his way. So too Isaiah 40:13 says, “Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel and who instructed him . . . and taught him knowledge.” Therefore God is the source of his omniscience. He does not learn from things: his knowledge depends on himself alone and is as eternal as he is."
Another writer says, "God knows his own decree and will, and therefore must know all future things. . . . God must know what he hath decreed to come to pass. . . God must know because he willed them . . . he therefore knows them because he knows what he willed. The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves, for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him. . . As God sees things possible in the glass of his own power, so he see things future in the glass of his own will”
When the Lord challenges the idols and their makers in Isaiah 41:22, he says, “Let them . . . show us what shall happen: let them show the former things . . . or declare us things for to come.” The force of the challenge lies in the fact that the idols know neither the past nor the future, while God knows both.
This knowledge of the future is not the same as alleged human knowledge of the future. We may say carelessly that we know it will rain tomorrow. We really do not know. We may have a plausible opinion that it will rain; but since our plausible opinions are several times mistaken, we cannot say that we really know. But God knows. He does not entertain a merely plausible opinion that may turn out to be mistaken. What he knows always happens. When Cain killed Abel, God knew that Joseph’s brothers would sell him into slavery. This evil act was therefore inevitable. It could not not-happen. Foreknowledge implies inevitability. If Joseph’s brothers had killed him, as they first thought of doing, then God would have been mistaken. The sale had to take place. Does this mean that God foreordains sinful acts? Well, it surely means that these acts were certain and determined from all eternity. It means that the brothers could not have done otherwise. Then who made those acts certain? The brothers could not have made them certain, for they were not yet born at the time of Cain and Abel. If God did not determine them, then there must be in the universe a determining force independent of God. You can escape this conclusion simply by denying that God knows all things.
God's omniscience is one with His omnipotence and His omnipresence.These three man cannot separate.
Quote:
"""
This knowledge of the future is not the same as alleged human knowledge of the future. We may say carelessly that we know it will rain tomorrow. We really do not know. We may have a plausible opinion that it will rain; but since our plausible opinions are several times mistaken, we cannot say that we really know. But God knows. He does not entertain a merely plausible opinion that may turn out to be mistaken. What he knows always happens. When Cain killed Abel, God knew that Joseph’s brothers would sell him into slavery. This evil act was therefore inevitable. It could not not-happen. Foreknowledge implies inevitability. If Joseph’s brothers had killed him, as they first thought of doing, then God would have been mistaken. The sale had to take place. Does this mean that God foreordains sinful acts? Well, it surely means that these acts were certain and determined from all eternity. It means that the brothers could not have done otherwise. Then who made those acts certain? The brothers could not have made them certain, for they were not yet born at the time of Cain and Abel. If God did not determine them, then there must be in the universe a determining force independent of God. You can escape this conclusion simply by denying that God knows all things.
God's omniscience is one with His omnipotence and His omnipresence.These three man cannot separate."""
I agree and hear and see.
I believe this is pretty much as God intended it to happen, still learnig. If you take the genealogy of Adam from God to Adam through 76 more generations Christ being the 77th from God. It is pretty clear that God is in control of all the intricate work of making this line of genealogy His prefect choice.
Not all of these men by some coincidence made the decision to be in this line. Most had to be drawn kicking and screaming to be in the Godly line of Christ. But this is Gods plan through Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, David and all in the line to Mary which Hebrew tradition would not allow a women to be in the genealogy line of a family, so Joseph was even in the line and Mary's husband Joseph was the one presented as the fleshly genealogical step father from the same line as Mary.
Perfect in execution and planning, Isaac, not Ishmael, Cain not Able, Jacob not Esau, David, and on and on and on, etc, etc, perfect choices of the Godly line of Jesus Christ right up to His birth.
Is God really in charge or not. Man's will must be subservient to God's will or the Plan of God could not be completed. The Plan?
First: Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Second: Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Third: Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Forth: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Fifth: Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
All this extending from; Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Completed; Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
From God's plan before the foundation to from the foundation the lamb slain, His plan is right on track, and nothing man does will foil it.
All that Is in Christ Jesus for the whole world and all of God's children that believe in Him, will be saved and The Body of Christ His Church, the gates of hell will not prevail against. What a sure Plan and perfect salvation for the chosen son's of God which was why He created us in the first place, to have children of His kind in His house.
In Christ: Phillip
Matthew 11:23 And you, Capernaum, which is exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to Hades: for if the mighty works, which have been done in you, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Sodom repenting is an "alternative possible world"
God has knowledge of the different free choices that all mankind would make if we were put into any given situation.
For example, Given God's knowledge of me and these exact circumstances of my life in this "alternative possible world", God knows that in this situation I will repent. My choice might very well be not to repent in a different situation that a different "alternative possible world" would cause; God knows what my choices will be in all other situations in all other "alternative possible worlds" as well.
Since each choice we make might be different in a different situation there are a wide variety of different scenarios that God knows. Together all these choices come within a seemingly infinite number of possible worlds. There are possible created worlds where I freely choose to repent and other possible worlds where circumstances are different and perhaps I choose not to repent. My repentance and unrepentance effects other's repentance &/or unrepentance as well as theirs effecting mine and even others as well.
According to the theology known as Molinism, God knew axactly what would happen and what we would freely choose in this world as he does in other possible created words. God created this world out of a seemingly infinite possible number other worlds; and with this world in which we are in, the most possible souls repent with the least amount of judgment and accountability for those who do not. So, God created this world out of all of his possibilities. You could say that God predestined and foreknew all that would happen in the sense that God created a world in which all possible choices were known by him in advance. In this way, the Molinist would claim to have the best of all possible created worlds by combining several very important theological themes that often seem to contradict one another:
1 - Human beings have the freedom of choice.
2 - God foreknows all these choices.
3 - God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent.
The questions arise:
why would a loving God create those He knows will not repent?
If God chose to not create those who He knows will not repent, that alteration of this optimum amount of repented would change the circumstances to where it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.
If God knew men would not repent, why did God create them?
I will give an example to answer this one.
My intention is to invite & to dine with my whole neighborhood to my favorite restaurant.
I know that most will not come and dine with me, however, that does not change my intention to do so.
Then, come the questions:
why would I intend on inviting those who I know will not show up?
It is because I love them, the invitation proves my love for them. Furthermore, if I don't invite those who I know will not come, it will cause some that I know who will come to deny my invitation.
Or,
Why would God created those HE knows will not repent?
It is because HE loves them anyway, the invitation of the Cross of Christ to repent proves His love for them. Furthermore, if HE didn't create those that HE knows will not repent, it will cause some that HE knows who will repent to not repent .
Just as in real life, God will use the death of a person(saved or not) to cause another to come to Him.
Or, as I mentioned above, If God didn't create them, it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.
The most common objection to this Molinism is the “grounding objection.” Basically, can a choice be truly free if it is known ahead of time? In other words, no one (God included) can know my choice of vanilla or chocolate until I make the choice. If a choice is determined ahead of time, then it is not free.
This is a false assumption, the knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them.
I believe in free will because I don't have a choice.
Diane
Our next task is to take a view of the idol himself, of this great deity of FREE-WILL, whose original, being not well known. He is pretended, like the Ephesian image of Diana, to have fallen down from heaven and to have his endowments from above. But yet considering what a nothing he was at this first discovery in comparison of that vast giant-like hugeness to which now he is grown, we may say of him as the painter said of his monstrous picture, which he had mended or rather marred according to every one's fancy, “It is the issue of the people's brain.”
The Scripture...hath no such term [free-will] at all or anything equivalent unto it. But the expressions it useth concerning our nature and all the faculties thereof in this state of sin and unregeneration seem to imply the quite contrary: as that we are in “bondage” (Heb 2:15); “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1); and so “free from righteousness” (Rom 6:20); “servants of sin” (v. 17); under the “reign” and “dominion” thereof, (vv. 12, 14); all “our members being instruments of unrighteousness” (v. 13); not “free indeed” until “the Son make us free” (Joh 8:36); so that this idol of FREE-WILL, in respect of spiritual things, is not one whit better than the other idols of the heathen.
J. Owen
wisevirgin wrote:not “free indeed” until “the Son make us free” (Joh 8:36);
J. Owen
Yes! Our will was bound by sin until the Son made us free.
This is why we will be judge at the Judgment seat of Christ for the things done in our body whether it be good or bad because Christ has given us our free will back to work in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We will be judged by how we submit our will to God's will in order to carry out things in our body to be well pleasing to the Lord.
Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The will is not the subject of the freeing here.
You could only conclude such from this Scripture by reading it with presuppositional glasses.
You are really grasping at straws here, as I do not believe any who bow before this idol of free-will would concur with you. Their arguments would come from some other angle but not from this square circle.
You appeal to Php 2:13 as a prooftext that all men now have a free-will. This verse in its context is firstly, addressed to 'my beloved' by Paul in vs.12, and secondly in vs.15 to the 'children of God'.
No Bible believer to my knowledge has ever denied that men do not have a will. So, when you say, "Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny", this does not apply to this free-will idol.
I am keenly aware of the truth regarding the flesh lusting against the spirit in the believer,and such being contrary to one another as it states in Galatians.
Regarding your quote, "Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." I reply with a hearty AMEN!
Then you can not argue that there is free will none at all, unless the Scripture show the concept of free will or none of it.wisevirgin wrote:The Scripture...hath no such term [free-will] at all or anything equivalent unto it.
[b]Rom 6:16
This verse tell us that we must choose of our own volition to who we yeild our selves to.
[b]Rom 6:17
by choosing of their own free will.
What about your idol of "no free will"?
What does it aply to then?"Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny", this does not apply to this free-will idol.
If mankind has a will, what is it not free in reguards to?
Why wouldn't God give His creation free will if we are in His image and likeness?
Why woulodn't God want all mankind to freely choose if He commands all men everywhere to repent and put their faith in/on Him?
Q: DO MAGGOTS HAVE 'FREE WILL'?
A: YES!
Yes, maggots have a free will to be just what they are, maggots. Just as worms have a free will to be just what they are, worms.
Job 25:4-6 How then can man be justified with God? Or how can one who is born of a woman be pure? Behold, even the moon, and it is not bright; and the stars are not pure in His eyes;
how much less man who is a maggot; and the son of man who is a worm!
Q: Does man have a free will?
A. YES!
Yes, man has a free will to be a man and no more.
Q: What is man in his fallen state?
A: Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as a handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.Selah.
Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree, are vanity, and men of high degree, are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
Q: Does man have a free will to do any good as some suppose?
A: Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin. For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do. But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good. But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find. For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do. But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me. I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
The apostle Paul, a regenerate man, makes this confession of his will being captive(antonym;free)by the law of sin in his members.
Even the regenerate man continues to battle the law of sin in his members.
Gal 5:16-18 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.
Q. Can the flesh profit anything or please God?
A: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom. 8:5-10 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Now, there are those who would have the flesh not only please God while still in the flesh,but would also have the flesh profit that which is of eternal value,namely salvation,by their own supposed free will while yet in the flesh.
1 Cor. 2:11-14 11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words.
Now the soulish[in the flesh] man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.
Eph. 2:1,5 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
The will of man regarding spiritual truth and life, is dead along with the man himself, who is dead in his sins.
To put it another scriptural way, the will of man is a slave to his master, sin, along with the man himself.
Any attempt to disconnect the will from the man himself is akin to mysticism at the least, and damnable devilish doctrine at worst.
Rom.6:20 When you were slaves to sin, [as unbelievers] you were free from the control of righteousness.
Everyone is born as a slave to the sin nature. Here, Paul uses an example of the well known institution of human slavery to illustrate his point in this matter. During the time of the Roman Empire slavery was common. The Greek word "doula" = "slavery" and "douloi" = "slaves" is used here in this passage and not the word for servants. Paul's point is that slaves have no free will, they must obey the authority of the slave master. Again, everyone is born as a slave of the sin nature,(Ro 3:9). We all have a constant natural compulsion to do evil, even believers as already stated.
Now,the whole context of Rom.6-7 to exhort and encourage believers who find that they are yet prone to sin's power.
But the good news is that they were freed from slavery to their old master,sin.
Their obeying from the heart,Christ's doctrine, in vs.17 is merely proof of the reality that their new Master has freed them.
This in no wise speaks of any free will of theirs in believing the Gospel effecting their being born of God and set free to now be His slaves.
Rom 6:17 BUT THANKS BE TO GOD THAT THOUGH YOU WERE SLAVES OF SIN,YOU BECAME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART TO THAT FORM OF TEACHING TO WHICH YOU WERE COMMITTED.
Thanks be (Strong's#5485) is the Greek word "charis", so more literally "grace to God". Paul moves from the principle in the preceding verse (v16) to the experience of the Roman believers. The apostle’s gratitude to God lies in the fact that their former condition is a thing of the past and that the believing readers were no longer subject to the slavery that leads to death.
Were (imperfect tense) signifies an action being committed over and over, which reflects the reality of the unregenerate person, who is under the continual slavery to Sin. The imperfect tense indicates that slavery was an ongoing reality before the new birth.
Became obedient(Strongs#5219) (hupakouo from hupó = agency or means, under + akoúo = physical hearing and apprehension of something with mind) means to hearken or give respectful attention to. Hupakouo is in aorist tense and points to a definite time in the past when they believed the gospel.
The phrase "became obedient from the heart" is important. Paul's point is that God works His salvation in a person's innermost being, changing the heart of every sinner who places their trust into Christ's finished work on Calvary. Now in a believer obedience is not forced or legalistic, but is willing. The corollary is that a person whose heart has not been changed and does not possess this desire to obey has not been saved.
Robert Haldane adds that...
"Christian obedience is obedience from the heart, in opposition to an obedience which is by constraint. Any attempt at obedience by an unconverted man, is an obedience produced by some motive of fear, self–interest, or constraint, and not from the heart. Nothing can be more convincing evidence of the truth of the Gospel than the change which, in this respect, it produces on the mind of the believer. Nothing but almighty power could at once transform a man from the love of sin to the love of holiness." (Haldane, R. An Exposition of Romans)
Were committed (3860) (paradidomi from para = alongside, beside + didomi = give) means to hand over to or to give over into (one’s) power. Paradidomi involves either the handing over of a presumably guilty person for punishment by authorities or the handing over of an individual to an enemy who will presumably take undue advantage of the victim.
William Newell elaborates on what it means to be "committed" to the "teaching"...writing...
Note that the Old Version misses the entire sense of this seventeenth verse in translating: "that form of doctrine which was delivered unto you, " whereas the true rendering is, that form of doctrine unto which ye were handed over (or, delivered). For the verb (paradidomi) is in the plural--ye were delivered over! This statement instructs us deeply in the Divine arrangements. The Israelites, for example, were delivered over to Moses and the Law. It was not only that the Law was delivered by Moses to them; they were them- selves delivered over to a legal dispensation--to a "mold of doctrine, " which had the Ten Commandments as the foundation, and the "ten thousand things of the Law" spoken in accordance therewith. The Jews knew they were under the Law. They had been handed over to it, to its demands, and to its whole economy. Likewise, believers now are delivered over to a form or pattern of teaching. Summarily, this is the Gospel, --particularly, the work of Christ on the cross. Believers have been handed over by God to the mighty facts, not only that their guilt was put away on the cross, but that they, as connected with Adam, died with Christ; that their history in Adam is thus entirely ended before God; and that they now share the risen life of Christ, and are before God as risen ones (Romans 6:10,11). And all believers are comprehended in these great truths, whether they apprehend them or not! It is the first duty of every teacher of God's saints to open to them the glorious facts already true about them, and unto which great mold or form of doctrine, they have been "delivered over" by God." (Romans 6)
Kenneth Wuest agrees with Newell and sums up the meaning of this verse...
"It is true that according to the authorized version., the doctrines of salvation were delivered to us, and we by the grace of God believed them. However, that is not what Paul said in his Greek. The verb “delivered” is second person plural. The Greek text reads, “the form of doctrine into which you were delivered.” That is, in salvation, God constituted the believer according to this chapter (vv. 1–14) inwardly so that he would react to the doctrines of grace by nature (the divine nature) in such a way as to receive and obey them. We were delivered into the teaching (doctrine - didache) in that we were constituted in salvation so that we would obey it. Paul thanks God that whereas before salvation we were slaves of the evil nature, we were in salvation delivered (handed over - paradidomi) to the teachings of grace so that we become slaves of righteousness." (Wuest, K. S. Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: Grand Rapids: Eerdmans)
Encyclopedia's definition of free-will:
Power or ability of the human mind to choose a course of action or make a decision without being subject to restraints imposed by antecedent causes, by necessity, or by divine predetermination. A completely freewill act is itself a cause and not an effect; it is beyond causal sequence or the law of causality.
John 19:10,11 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered,Thou couldest have no power at all against me,except, it were given thee from above: therefore, he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Mat 16:15-17 He said to them, But you, whom do you say Me to be? And answering, Simon Peter said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
I believe the scriptures are replete with the irrefutable truths above, and confess with the many brethren who wrote:
"Original sin in human nature is not only a total lack of good in spiritual, divine things, but that at the same time it replaces the lost image of God in man with a deep, wicked, abominable, bottomless, inscrutable, and inexpressible corruption of the entire nature in all its powers, especially of the highest and foremost powers of the soul in mind, heart, and will.
We believe that in spiritual and divine things the intellect, heart, and will of unregenerated man cannot by any native or natural powers in any way understand, believe, accept, imagine, will, begin, accomplish, do, effect, or cooperate, but that man is entirely and completely dead and corrupted as far as anything good is concerned.
We reject the Roman Catholic doctrine that fallen man still has a “free will” and does so on the basis of clear Scriptures."
Php. 1:1,2,6 Paul, and Timothy, slaves of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ.
FROM: Easton's Bible Dictionary
Election of Grace
The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deuteronomy 7:6; Romans 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; John 13:18).
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Ephesians 1:5,11; Matthew 11:25,26; John 15:16,19). God claims the right so to do (Romans 9:16,21).
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace (Romans 11:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Ephesians 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:5,10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature."
Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love" (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Galatians 4:4,5; Ephesians 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace (Ephesians 1:6,12).
Decrees of God
"The decrees of God are his eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations, and determining their certain futurition. The several contents of this one eternal purpose are, because of the limitation of our faculties, necessarily conceived of by us in partial aspects, and in logical relations, and are therefore styled Decrees." The decree being the act of an infinite, absolute, eternal, unchangeable, and sovereign Person, comprehending a plan including all his works of all kinds, great and small, from the beginning of creation to an unending eternity; ends as well as means, causes as well as effects, conditions and instrumentalities as well as the events which depend upon them, must be incomprehensible by the finite intellect of man. The decrees are eternal (Acts 15:18; Ephesians 1:4; 2th 2:13), unchangeable (Psalms 33:11; Isaiah 46:9), and comprehend all things that come to pass (Ephesians 1:11; Matthew 10:29,30; Ephesians 2:10; Acts 2:23; 4:27,28; Psalms 17:13,14).
The decrees of God are (1) efficacious, as they respect those events he has determined to bring about by his own immediate agency; or (2) permissive, as they respect those events he has determined that free agents shall be permitted by him to effect.
This doctrine ought to produce in our minds "humility, in view of the infinite greatness and sovereignty of God, and of the dependence of man; confidence and implicit reliance upon wisdom, rightenousness, goodness, and immutability of God's purpose."
Predestination
This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events.
This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."
For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Genesis 21:12; Exodus 9:16; 33:19; Deuteronomy 10:15; 32:8; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 12:22; 2Chr 6:6; Psalms 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isaiah 41:1-10; Jeremiah 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2,6,9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Romans 9:11,18,21; 11:5; Ephesians 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2th 2:13; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2.
I've posted the above for the purpose of aiding those who may be ascending into the heights of these grand subjects.
Soli Deo Gloria
Wow, Easton's was direct. Thanks.
Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.
Donate