Hi,
Me and a couple men at my church have been charged with starting up a men's ministry. My pastor would like it to center primarily around spiritual growth, though of course, not to exclude fellowship events and a helps ministry. I've never started such a thing before, and would welcome any advice/suggestions/resources anybody might have in regard to starting/overseeing a men's ministry.
There is not such thing as men's ministry in the bible. But with that said the solution is discipleship the older discipline the younger.
You are obviously free to air any video materials from sermonindex to the men, I have heard of this as ways to sober and bring about a seeking after God.
Here is a good book by Zac Poonen called: Practical Discipleship
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=practical_discipleship
If you can figure out how to get men involved in men's ministry... let the rest of us know how you pulled it off...
Krispy
There is not such thing as men's ministry in the bible. But with that said the solution is discipleship the older discipline the younger.
Agreed, they didn't have a formal "men's ministry" per say. However, I think Titus 2:1-10 provides a general principle off which to base the idea of separate men and women's ministries, where each gender's elders minister to the younger. And age here, since we are to know no man after the flesh, doesn't necessarily mean 60 year old men teaching 15 year olds. He's of course, talking about those who are older spiritually teaching those younger in the faith. Hopefully, your older men will also be older in the Lord. But, alas, that's not always the case.
If you can figure out how to get men involved in men's ministry... let the rest of us know how you pulled it off...
LOL, no kidding. My pastor has banged his head against the wall for almost 8 years attempting to get a men's ministry off the ground himself, only to be really unable to do so. So, he's hoping to have a small group be able to pull such off.
To be fair, if we're looking for biblical evidence of a 'men's ministry' we can easily find it.
The temple of God was divided into the gentiles court, the women's court... um... I guess everything that was left was for men only. Men worshipped together in the old testament, men fought together in battle, there was a lot of manly bonding going on all over the place. When Jesus calmed the storm it doesn't say anything about any women being on the boat screaming their heads off. Gideon's Three Hundred, David's Mighty Men, Jesus' Apostles.
Just because the name 'men's ministry' isn't in the bible doesn't mean that there was no opportunity for men to fellowship and grow closer to the Lord together.
In a different era, about 25 years ago, I was a leader in a "men's" ministry. It was established upon the idea that the Church must be led by committed men first.
We centered around a Saturday prayer meeting. We avoided small talk, and hit the knees, for intercession . We could not pray for our needs, but for the lost and needy, whoever.
There were five of us in the beginning. Only after praying, did we fellowship, and eat; spending the morning together.
We also met once in the week, and of course on Sundays. We prayed a lot, and inwardly committed ourselves to see God move and minister to the helpless.
Eventually, revival came, right out of that small meeting, and a church of 250 arose, and was blessed of God. Our spirit kind of seeped into all, and many, many drunkards, addicts, and general red neck heathens were saved.
Kingdom building and agendas will kill God's purposes. If you are meeting to enhance the church numbers, are to be known as a more spiritual church, I would quit now, before you are disappointed later. If you are meeting to be more spiritually prosperous among yourselves, only, ditto. As men, you must capture His heart, and spur one another along the Path of absolute surrender.
This is the only men's group acceptable in the Eyes of the Lord Jesus. Beware of man's controls, or any motives such as the enhancement of your selves, to have a more comfortable life, with more friends to enjoy life with. [camping trips, golfing and sports trips, game night, family night and of course food! and more food!] This is often what these groups degenerate into. What I am saying is; Do not let it become a club. If you do, base it on the Moravian one....[and contest who it will be who is privileged with first martyrdom.]
Make it a all for Jesus discipling meeting with Jesus as your sole Lord. You won't regret it.
Amen BrotherTom. Indeed, my pastor says he doesn't want this thing to become a club caught up in activities. While he's not against men doing things together e.g. camping, he wants our primary focus to be spiritual growth. Such has to be fought against deeply. We simply do not have very many men who are spiritual in our church. Many precious and saintly women, but, not many men who are men.
Gotta love those Morravians!
By the way, I'm totally against building a men's ministry around silly books like John Eldridge writes.
silly? have you read them?
Yes. Don't get me wrong, there is some good stuff in there. But too much of what he says is built on sand of this world and not the rock of God's word.
Here's some encouragement for you. It seems this is on the hearts of alot of men, so your not alone in this. I found the McDonald's church websight while on Stacy McDonald's blog looking at the tea party pics.:)
Yes. Don't get me wrong, there is some good stuff in there. But too much of what he says is built on sand of this world and not the rock of God's word.
I really dont know much about this guy... and I know he is wildly popular (red flag, in my opinion!) and many men's groups are using his material...
KJ... educate me (us)... whats your take on John Eldrige?
Krispy
In essence, Eldridge attempts to blend worldly psychological methods with Christian theology. And like so many others, when the gospel doesn't seem quite good enough, the psyco-babel gets rev'd up a notch. For example, when Jesus said to turn the other cheek, he doesn't advise our sons to do so less we emasculate them. He says if you are a kid and get hit on the playground by another kid, you should hit him back! Afterall, Jesus doesn't want you to be a sissy! Instead he wants you to be a mountain climbing, rough necking, touch down throwing MVP! He wants you to be a manly man!
Don't get me wrong, Eldridge has some very good things to say. But, like I said, he's building his house mostly on a house of sand. I doubt his books are making men out of men. His "Wild at Heart" is worth the gander though.
Instead he wants you to be a mountain climbing, rough necking, touch down throwing MVP!
... sounds like my kinda guy!
Seriously tho, I'm searching the web and finding a lot of blogs (mainly from Calvinists) who find a lot of theological issues with him.
Is the main issue maybe that his writings are trite?
To me... men's ministry should be about scripture. Teaching scripture... applying scripture. I dont like "self-esteem" pop-psychology stuff.
Is that what this is mainly? Fluff?
Krispy
... sounds like my kinda guy!
Yeah, it's kinda exciting and all. But simply being a "manly man" isn't the Biblical definition of a man.
Is that what this is mainly? Fluff?
I wouldn't say mainly, but he does have a lot of it.
Think I'll stick with Spurgeon & Ravenhill.
Krispy
To me... men's ministry should be about scripture. Teaching scripture... applying scripture.
Amen Krispy.
KingJimmy, please keep us posted on how you end up tackling this situation.
I couldn't think of where to post this so rather than starting a new thread I thought I would post it here. :-) It's a daily radio broadcast for men but it also speaks to women. It's really good so far from what I have listened to and has helped me alot as a wife.
http://www.man2manexpress.com/html/radio_archive.html
Also go here:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Man_2_Man_Express/
[url=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Man_2_Man_Express/]This broadcast
prayer, bible study,evangleism, and if they are married, keep them accountable to minstering to their familes.. doing things together or in small groups, taking a trip with some of them helps( for example , go evanglize a city that is not your own, the ride up and back, and the experiance draws the men together)...., and try to stay away from being the glue that keeps them together, encourage that they meet on their own.
andy
It seems as though they are speaking more of their legacy not their reputation.
June 18, 2008
Compelled To Compete With Integrity
June 19, 2008
Competing With Integrity On The Line
Think I'll stick with Spurgeon & Ravenhill.
This is waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy of topic here, but I have been meaning to ask Krispy this for a while.
Krispy, are you aware that Spurgeon was very much a Calvinist?
I guess I should mention to that no, my husband is not going through a midlife crisis I just thought it was a good broadcast. :-)
I think we get hung up on titles, though the bible doesn't say literally a "men's ministry" doesn't mean we shouldn't. I think it is a great idea to start this off. Men unfortunately have not been leading the church for awhile, you can bet the woman have been leading the charge.
I would start a weekly bible study that you combed through a book in the bible. You could also have a men's breakfast monthly at church and have a guest speaker come in. Maybe serving in the community, helping single moms and widows. You might find that you have some men that are handy with cars or in construction. Maybe grow into doing some street evangelism, passing out tracts or something like that. Mostly I think anything you do with a strong emphasis on bible study and discipleship, you are on the right track.
I was a part of a "men's" ministry for about 10 years... There is definately a problem with men in the church not being followers of Christ, denying self, turning from sin which results in them not leading their families and children and much more. Getting a bunch of churched men who most likely may be false converts or truly not saved and getting them "pumped" up for Jesus and trying to jazz them up to be manly men does not work. For the entire time I was in the men's group, it didn't work for me. It didn't change me, give me a hunger for Christ, repentance, turning from sin, the word, it just made me more prideful and puffed up as a "man". Men need to get on their faces, seek God, and repent of their sin and have a true revival and not read "manly" books written by mainstream Christian authors. they need to get out and turn from sin and repent. It was not until I got away from the "men's manly club" and started to witness and repent did I see any change in my life. I agree with Greg's 2nd post that Men's groups are not Biblical..Amen.
Doug
Krispy, are you aware that Spurgeon was very much a Calvinist?
Are you aware that Spurgeon was perhaps the most non-Calvinist Calvinist there ever was? Yes, he espoused Calvinism, but then he would turn right around and preach from a non-Calvinistic perspective. Especially on matters of evangelism. So much so that he angered many of the Calvinist theologians of the day.
I think I am perhaps in the same camp with Spurgeon... I am a Calvinistic Armenian.
Krispy
The book by eldredge is nothing but fool's gold.
It's popularity is characteristic of our age.
What is worse is that professing christians promote this garbage. Which should not surprise us as Joel Osteen's book 'Your Best Life Now' has gotten such rave reviews as well.
The deceived and the deceivers are growing at an alarming rate. The prophet Jeremiah in chapter 5:30,31 sums this all up when he says, "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;The prophets prophesy falsely,and the priests bear rule by their means;and my people love to have it so:and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
Rev. 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
One reader comments on "Wild at heart". If
I were to write a book that was a parody of the
Christian men's movement, I could do no better than to write "Wild at Heart". However, John Eldredge beat me to it.
This is a sad book - sad in proving how far the Church has fallen from its roots. Francis Schaeffer has said that what you find in the world you will now find in the Church seven years later.
By now, we are all familiar with the laments: feminism stole our destiny, our fathers are the cause of our problems, a real man is only truly fulfilled by lugging around a broadsword, and lastly, that we all have a one-track mind. Mix in an appropriate amount of psychobabble, some sprigs of Hemingway and Spillane, and a sprinkling of random Bible verses, and you have
the perfect recipe for disaster.
Christian men of a hundred years ago would in no ways recognize this book as being Christian, so egregious are the errors and doctrinal deficiencies. A couple cases in point:
1) The amount of eisogesis that occurs in this book is staggering. Eldredge reads the Bible through the eyes of William Wallace (of "Braveheart" fame) rather than through God's eyes. For example, Eldredge heartily
advises his son to return pain for pain when the son is confronted by a bully, arguing that despite Jesus' admonitions to turn the other cheek, Jesus was a man's man, a carpenter who hung out with fishermen, therefore it is okay to return like for like. He quotes Jesus' driving the moneychangers out of the temple as a proof text. However, Eldredge totally forgets the entire Passion story, wherein Jesus would
NOT defend himself physically against his attackers,and went so far as to not even defend himself verbally. The focus of Jesus' anger as in the temple story is not on his own person, but the person of the Father. The Father was wronged, therefore the anger and actions are justified. We are not to seek justice for ourselves, but for those outside of us. Remember Romans 8:36 - "As it is written: 'For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.'" Read the life (and death) story of
any martyr and you will see the wrongheadedness of
Eldredge's beliefs.
2) The worship of self, especially as embodied by the unholy alliance of psychology and Christianity, is paramount in this book. It is all about what can be done for me, how I can find fulfillment, find my life.This mentality runs exactly counter to Matthew 10:39 -"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Eldredge makes much of a "false life", but in the end the life he claims is true destroys his own arguments in a fit
of circular logic. The very men he claims as heroes mostly lived in a time before pop psychology and "finding oneself" came to the fore. We can admire men like Lincoln, Wallace, and Washington for their strength, but do you think that Lincoln sat around moping about the fact that his dad treated him badly?
Did he abandon his country because of personal
tragedies, like the death of his children, so he could instead blabber to his shrink about his personal needs going unmet? Despite the fact that Eldredge dismisses "sucking it up", the truth is that real Christian men do suck it up. They know that life is greater than their own needs and wants, therefore they crucify the self in order to pursue the greater need. Eldredge laments that Christian men are bored. I contend that if those same men every truly tasted the fulness of God by dying to self, then the staggering nature of the greater need outside their own search for
fulfillment would be made apparent to them and they would never know boredom again.
Is Eldredge right in that men are hurting? Yes, he
is.Yet, His deficiency is in his answers to those
problems. Unfortunately, he sees the world through a syncretistic lens that distorts his views. Because of this, "Wild at Heart" makes a caricature of everything it discusses. It poses a form of maleness and male Christianity that looks good on the surface, but is empty underneath. Read this book in the light of books like Edwards' "Religious Affections", Bonhoeffer's
"The Cost of Discipleship", and Schaeffer's "The Great Evangelical Disaster" to see it for what it is truly worth.
It should also be noted that Eldridge's book of being a manly man is looked at through the lense of the upper-middle class yuppie type. He's a prisoner of his cubical, thus, needs a William Wallace like experience to live through.
Building Brothers believes that the primary reasons for this crisis within the church are:
There are very few viable models for men to follow.
Churches are not considered as a [url=http://www.buildingbrothers.org/site3/main.asp?PG=00&Sub=04&Q=Masculine]masculine (safe) place for men.
Churches need to build a [url=http://www.buildingbrothers.org/site3/main.asp?PG=00&Sub=04&Q=CoreLeadership]leadership core
There is little expression of male identity within the church.
It should also be noted that Eldridge's book of being a manly man is looked at through the lense of the upper-middle class yuppie type. He's a prisoner of his cubical, thus, needs a William Wallace like experience to live through.
Jimmy,
That's a valid comment that I think even Eldridge would agree with. His 'ministry' can perhaps best be understood through the sociological lens of the middle aged suburban male who feels his manly life has been reduced to a stifling, safe and meaningless treadmill towards retirement, and whose spiritual life has been domesticated with flowers and curtains and scented with a bathroom air freshener.
I almost imagine that City Slickers would make a good John Eldridge ministry movie. ;-)
MC
Concerning John Eldredge:
Rather than respond to any particular post I thought it necessary to respond in general to the misgivings about this man's work. Have those that oppose his books been in depth with his teachings? What I am hearing consistantly among this thread as well as another blog I read today are misrepresentations that could only be made by skimming over or hearing someone else's take, but certainly not delving into what is being taught (it would seem). If you have read in depth lets discuss it, because I am well acquainted with his work also. I would be delighted to do so.
Not since the Lord used Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" and some of Jessie Penn-Lewis' work have I come to see so much of what the enemy does in attacking the saints. Eldredge has accurately identified subtle tactics evil spirits use daily against us (mostly in "Waking the Dead", but also in "Sacred Romance".
I don't think I've ever read anyone that understands and explains so well the unfaithfulness in our lives. Look at how full the OT is with charges against Israel for their harlotries. The Lord taught me in my own life concerning a verse in Isaiah (don't know where right now) The Lord charged Israel with finding her strength again. They would leave Him, so He would deal with them and wait for their strength to fail (like our old man) but she found strength renewed in her adulteries. I saw this in me. The Lord would chastise me, I would grow weaker and thirsty for Him...on my way back to being single minded and full of light, but then an old "lover" would come around and my Adamic strength would be renewed. A lover might be food, football, people, an emotion...anything you go to to find comfort and strength except Jesus. I'm sorry if I'm not making sense. Have I been clear enough to be understood a little?
One other example is in "Journey of Desire". I have been most recently going down a path the Lord is changing me concerning my hope and my real home. I did not realize how much I'm trying to find my life here in experiences, vacations, days off, etc... "You are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God" ...I'm gaining a reality of this truth in daily life now. John deals with this a great deal in this book.
I will not make this any longer, but there is so, so much that God is revealing to His people through this man. When I picked up "Wild at Heart" as I held it I felt the presence of the Lord and I knew I needed to read it. It broke up ground in my heart and revealed a terrible wound that has constantly undermined my walk with God. John Wesley admitted not being able to reach certain people in his congregation, people like me. Eldredge has and is. I thank God for him.
When I picked up "Wild at Heart" as I held it I felt the presence of the Lord and I knew I needed to read it
Thanks Zionshield,
A friend of mine gave me a copy of Wild at Heart and the Journey of Desire. He was really going through a personal crisis at the time, and the Lord seemed to use these books in his life much in the same way you testified. During this trial in his life, his giving me those books was a very meaningful and personal affirmation of our friendship. I read both books, and we had some crucial times of fellowship discussing them, as well as trying to build one another up during his painful season.
Your testimony here is a reminder to me to measure everything I say by how it helps Christians on their way with Christ...not offer my opinions just because I can. My comments below needlessly devalued Eldrides work, and I regret that now.
It's a problem I tend to have. Pray for me.
I'm realizing these days how little I've been living with the awareness that in an instance I could be facing our Lord. I do not think I will be so clever on that day.
Well, overlook my comments if you could.
Blessings,
MC
Thank you Compton,
You have blessed me tremendously. I believe Andrew Murray was right when he said that "humility is the glory of man". What a beautiful garment it is that compells me to worship the Worthy Lord to Whom we delight in bowing to. I will pray for you (I also need your prayers).
Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.
Donate