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Can a saved man be lost-

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BlazedbyGod

What do you all think about this article:

The power of choice is a wonderful gift from God. Yet there is one choice God never allowed man to exercise. No one can choose whether or not to be born with a sinful nature. The decision which affects our lives the most was made long, long ago by our forefathers. We have absolutely no choice about the kind of nature we possess at birth. It is a sinful nature. If unchanged it will lead to eternal death.
But even though we are born with a fallen nature, God gives us a choice about changing that nature. It is a personal, sovereign choice that no one can take away from us. Without doubt it constitutes the most important decision that any person faces during his lifetime. The choice is whether we yield to that sinful nature and die eternally, or receive a new nature through faith in Christ and live eternally.
Much disagreement exists over the kind of choice offered to each one of us. Millions believe that God opens the door for only a once-in-a-lifetime decision and then closes that door forever. It is as though God says, "I'm going to give you only one decision about changing over from your doomed condition. Once you decide to be saved you can never choose to be lost again. When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, it will be the final choice you will ever make about your eternal destiny. If you change your mind later and repudiate your decision, it will be too late. No matter how deeply and sincerely you desire to be lost and repent of your repentance, you cannot escape from eternal life. No amount of bitter rebellion, deliberate blasphemy, or iniquitous living can change that once-for-all decision to be saved. I will not allow you any further choice after you accept Jesus as your Saviour."
Basically, this is the belief of a large segment of Christians who advocate the doctrine of eternal security. Another equally sincere group of Christians believes that God leaves the door open for us to change our minds at any time. They believe that salvation is not predicated upon only one irrevocable act or choice of the past, but upon a continuous, personal relationship of the believer with Christ. When the decision to break the love-relationship is made by willful disobedience, the believer ceases to be a true believer and forfeits any assurance of salvation.


Millions of Souls at Stake

The fantastic implications of this issue are overwhelming. If there is an unconditional future security for all believers, it has to be the most wonderful doctrine in existence: but if it is not true, it surely is one of the most dangerous heresies in the world. Millions could be saved or lost over the decision they make on this one point.
Let me give you an example of how it influences the destiny of people day by day. At one of my crusades there were more than one hundred people attending who had been steeped in the belief of eternal security. They were thrilled by the revelation of Bible truth as they listened. The seventh-day Sabbath particularly excited them because they had never before understood it. All were completely convinced that Saturday is the true Sabbath of the Scriptures, and they eagerly accepted the great prophetic doctrines also. But of those hundred people only a very few made any decision to obey the truth. Practically all of them had Sabbath problems connected with their jobs. It would have meant inconvenience, economic hardship, and possible loss of employment for them to follow the truth all the way. Each one who rejected the message gave me the same explanation - "We are already saved," they said, "and we cannot be lost. Why should we run the risk of losing our jobs by keeping the Sabbath? We would not be any more saved by keeping the Sabbath than we are right now, and we certainly cannot be lost by breaking the Sabbath."
Do you see how their argument was consistent with their doctrine? To them salvation was not connected with obedience, or advancing in spiritual growth. It all focused on a past moment when they made a decision for Christ. Whether they obeyed or disobeyed any subse- quent revelation of truth could have no influence whatsoever on their final destiny. They could break the fourth commandment, the seventh commandment, or all of them, and still feel eternally secure in the promise they had claimed "when they were saved." To be sure, these people believed that their disobedience might affect the joy and peace of their relationship, but never the assurance of ultimate salvation.
Obviously, this doctrine needs to be deeply examined. Too many eternal consequences hinge upon its acceptance or rejection. We need to answer questions like these: Can we change our minds about being saved? Do we give up our power of choice when we are converted? Does salvation consist of one grand, holy moment of decision, or must we continue in the saving grace of Christ after that decision? Can God take defiling sins into His holy kingdom? Fortunately, the Bible has hundreds of beautiful, clear texts to answer these questions. We will look at them together, and also examine a few texts which have been interpreted to uphold the doctrine of "once saved, always saved."

No Sin in Heaven

Speaking of the New Jerusalem, John said, "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8. Paul repeatedly wrote about the exclusion of sinners from heaven. Sin is the only thing that defiles in the sight of God, and no one who willfully practices sin will ever enter into His kingdom. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.
Nowhere in the Bible is entrance into God's kingdom tied to a momentary - or even temporary - faith experience of the past. Salvation is a dynamic, growing relationship with the only One who has eternal life to bestow. It requires continuing contact in order to receive it. The very life of God can be shared with men but NEVER APART FROM A LIVING UNION WITH CHRIST! "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.
Just as the constant creative energy of God is necessary to sustain the universe and to hold atoms together, so His divine power is constantly needed to maintain spiritual life in the soul. When a person willfully chooses to separate from God, the contact is broken, and the spiritual life ceases to flow. God will not violate the will of anyone in making that choice either. For proof that Christians can lose their connection with Jesus and be lost, read John 15:1-6. There Christ explains one of the great mysteries of eternal life. "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Verses 5, 6.


The Secret of Continued Life is Continued Abiding

Notice that the secret of continued life is continued abiding. If a person does not abide in Christ, he withers, dies, and is finally burned up. This proves that the relation of a believer to Christ is never a static thing based only on a past experience. It is a current, mutual sharing of a common life which is drawn from Him "who is our life" (Colossians 3:4). When the branch is separated from the vine, the source of life is gone, and only death can result. These words of Jesus are too clear to be misconstrued. Even believing, trusting Christians who are connected to the living vine may choose to separate from the vine. When they do, they die and will be cast into the fire and burned. Nothing can wither and die that has not previously been alive.
Security is eternal only for those whose faith is eternally fixed on Jesus, and whose life is connected to the one who is our life. Obviously, we can choose to be lost no matter how saved we once were. Everything depends on maintaining the divine connection with the true vine.
Jesus taught the same solemn truth about losing eternal life in the parable of the sower. In explaining the seed which fell among the thorns and the rocks, Jesus said, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:12, 13.
There are several things to note about this parable. First, only one class will finally be saved - the ones who brought forth much fruit. The groups represented by the wayside and rocks will not be saved. In verse 12, the wayside hearers did not have a chance to "believe and be saved," but in the next verse the stony ground hearers do "for a while believe." What kind of "believing" is this? According to verse 12, it is the kind that saves. So the ones who believed for a while were saved for a while, but in time of temptation they fell away. Eventually, of course, they were lost along with all the others, except the fruit-bearers. Here is an unequivocal teaching of our Lord that people can have a saving faith for a while, and yet lose it and be lost.

Security is Eternal Only for
Those Whose Faith is Eternally Fixed on Jesus

Those who read the record of the Gospels carefully will find repeated authority from Jesus to renounce the doctrine of eternal security. In Luke 12:42-46 Christ described in another parable how a faithful servant could turn into an unfaithful one. After asking, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household . . . ?" Jesus answers His own question: "That servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . . . he will make him ruler over all that he hath." Then Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward. "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Verses 45,46.
Here is a perfect example by the Master Teacher as to how a faithful and wise servant can be punished with the unbelievers. Jesus was talking about a man whom He had seen faithful enough to trust with heavy responsibilities. Undoubtedly, this servant represents those who carefully served the Lord as true believers. But what happened? That very faithful servant departed from the path of faithfulness and reaped eternal ruin and death. Does this not also remind us of the words of Hebrews 10:38, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." The servant in the parable, who was a believer, is now punished with the unbelievers. The faithful can draw back to perdition.


Salvation Can Be Forfeited

One more parable of Christ spotlights the fact that continued forgiveness is conditional for the believer. The story is found in Matthew 18:21-35, and revolves around the forgiveness of God. A certain king responded to the pleas of his servant and forgave him a large debt. That servant went out and found a fellow servant who owed him a small amount and showed no mercy, throwing him in prison because he could not pay. When the king heard what had happened, he rescinded his cancellation of the large debt and had his servant thrown to the tormentors till he paid in full.
No one can deny the obvious teaching of this parable. Even though God graciously forgives those who apply for it, that forgiveness is not without conditions for the future. We can lose that forgiveness by being unmerciful to others. This is in harmony with the words of the Lord in Ezekiel 33:13, "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it." The principle is repeated in verse 18, "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."
The secret lies in maintaining the righteous relationship with the Source of salvation. Jesus said, "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13. No one will be saved finally who does not hold out against a course of deliberate sin in the power of God. Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Advocates of eternal security deny it could ever happen, but read the frightening possibility for yourself in Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." The implication is clear that those who are not overcomers - who do not endure to the end - will have their names blotted out.
All these verses are really saying the same thing. Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security. "If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24. "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51. "If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22. "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10. "For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14. "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV). "If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15. "Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14. "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.


Danger of Being a Castaway

Paul recognized the fearful possibility of being cast out of God's presence in the end unless he curbed the fleshly propensities to sin. Said he, ". . . lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27. The word Paul used - castaway - is very interesting. It is the Greek word "adokimos," which is translated "reprobate" in other places. In fact, 2 Corinthians 13:5 declares that Jesus Christ cannot dwell in the heart that is reprobate (adokimos). Titus 1:16 speaks of the abominable and disobedient who are "unto every good work reprobate (adokimos)." Surely Paul had nothing else in mind but that he could be lost if he allowed sin to recapture his life.
Paul also speaks of the possibility of born-again believers suffering damnation because they receive the Lord's Supper unworthily. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself." 1 Corinthians 11:29. No one can deny that these people were committed Christians partaking of the symbols of their redemption. Could they fall into damnation and be lost? Paul said they could. What is damnation? The same Greek word (krima) is found in 1 Timothy 5:12. "Having damnation (krima) because they have cast off their first faith." How plain it is that believers can "cast off their first faith" and go into final damnation.
I have listened many, many times to an explanation of eternal security based upon the analogy of sonship. "My child is born into my family and he will always be my child. He cannot be unborn. Whether obedient or disobedient, he will always be my child." This reasoning avoids the central issue. The question is not whether a child can be "unborn," but whether it can sicken and die. No doctor admonishes new parents about the dangers of the baby getting unborn, but he has much to say about proper care to keep it from dying. In fact, if the baby is not fed, it will soon die. In the same way, Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53. What was He talking about? In verse 63 He explained, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Unless the Christian lives by the Word of God, he cannot continue to partake of the spiritual life derived from Him.
Have we clearly established that continued obedience is necessary to ultimate salvation? Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey?" Romans 6:16. When a man chooses to obey Christ no longer and obeys the devil instead, he no longer belongs to Christ, but to Satan. "He that doeth righteousness is righteous . . . He that committeth sin is of the devil." 1 John 3:7, 8.

The writer of the book of Hebrews gives scores of specific admonitions against falling away from the faith. Hebrews 10:23 opens up a line of argument against the once-saved, always-saved position that no one can refute. The passage begins this way: "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering." And after that, admonition is given those who might be tempted to absent themselves from the assembly of the believers. Apparently, this is one of the first signs of slipping backward. The author of this epistle, and I think it was Paul, includes himself in the warning. He writes, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" That is from verses 26 through 29. The people described herehad been sanctified by the truth, but fell away into willful apostasy.
Now the last few verses of the chapter warn against the casting away of their confidence. Notice this carefully! "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Verses 35 to 39. Now how could anybody state any more clearly the fact that one's eternal salvation is conditional on his remaining steadfast to the very end? Unless there were a possibility that one might cast away his confidence, that he might draw back unto perdition, why would this man of God sound such a warning as he did?
In Hebrews 6:4-6 we find another striking statement. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Now I think it would be very difficult to describe more fully a person who had been born again but who later rebelled against God and rejected Christ and spurned the Holy Spirit. He has placed himself out of God's reach by his own actions. Therefore, there is no possibility that such a man can be saved as long as he continues to crucify Christ by his disobedience.


Branches Can Be Cut Off

In the eleventh chapter of Romans, Paul is discussing the fact that many of the physical seed of Israel rejected God's Son and were thus cut off. The illustration is used of an olive tree. The branches were the children of Israel, but because of their unbelief, they were broken off, as you will read in verses 17 to 20. Then, some wild olive branches were grafted in, which represents the Gentile Christians. Now note this admonition: "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." Verses 21 and 22, emphasis added. Please note that any security for those branches depended entirely upon their connection with the tree. The security was conditional.
Let's see whether Peter agrees with these sentiments of Paul. In his second epistle, the first chapter, are listed a number of virtues which should be manifested in the life of every Christian. These are mentioned in verses 5 to 7, and notice that he is writing to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Verse 1. Then they had been given "all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue." Verse 3. It is very apparent that Peter is addressing these remarks to those who have been converted. But notice the warning he gives: "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." Verses 9 and 10. Surely this indicates that Christians can fall from grace. They can turn back from following Jesus. They can even become apostates in the truest sense of the word.
In the third chapter, Peter goes on to say, "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." Verse 14. "Seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." Verse 17. So we see that Peter does agree with Paul that Christians need to be on guard constantly lest they be led astray, and he indicates the sad fate of those who turn back into sin after they are converted.
One of the strongest texts in the Bible that proves a person can turn away from Christ and be lost even after he has made a profession of being saved is 2 Peter 2:20-22: "If after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." The lesson here is obvious.
Now, those who take a position for unconditional security say that God's sons cannot be represented by dogs and sows. Well, maybe they can't, but Peter did - and it is the most apt of illustrations. The proverb is painfully plain. They had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They had been converted. They had joined Christ on His side. They had turned their lives over to Him, but they remembered the world and the "wallow" of sin. Like the Israelites coming out of Egypt, they remembered the "flesh pots," the "leeks and onions." They remembered the pleasures of sin; so, leaving Christ they went back into the world like the hog returns to its wallow in the mire. Certainly no Christian should imitate the habits of a hog, but Peter's proverb shows that it is possible.
The Spirit of God is not silent on this point. Listen: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1 Timothy 4:1, emphasis added. When will this happen? When will some depart from the faith? In the latter times. That would be right now, wouldn't it? That would be the times in which we are living and the times immediately before us. If you haven't thought of it before, these are dangerous times. And if you are still unconvinced, thoughtfully read the headlines of tomorrow's newspaper.
On this point "the Spirit speaketh expressly." Just what does that mean? It means the Spirit speaks plainly, clearly - so clearly it is impossible to misunderstand. All right then, what would some do? Some would depart from the faith. So, it is possible to leave the faith, isn't it? Some do it. They have been in the faith, they have worshiped with the brethren, they have attended church and prayer meeting. They have been actively promoting the gospel, they have given of their means, they have been pastors, officers of the church, and leading laymen; nevertheless, they leave the faith. They are not steadfast and faithful. In the last days come perilous times, with persecutions and serious difficulties, and some do not stand. They are tempted by the things of the world and are seduced by spirits of devils. Sad to say, they give up their allegiance to the Man of the cross. They were on Christ's side, but now they side with His enemy.
Please don't missunderstand. If you want unconditional security, you can have it. It is in Christ, on a day-by-day, moment-by-moment basis. When you take Christ and stay by, you will persevere. There is, and can be, no failure on Christ's part. He will not fail; He is faithful. "Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee." Psalm 55:22. He will stand by you as long as you stand by Him. Jesus said of Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." John 14:6. And John wrote of the Lord, "This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12.
Many non-Christians think they have security. They will tell you they believe God will admit them to heaven. They will say, "I am as good as people in the church," or "I feel I will be saved without going to church." But the truth is, no man is saved on the basis of his feelings. He may be sincere, but his sincerity will not save him. He may be honest, truthful, moral, and a first class citizen, but that won't save him. He may be liberal, a supporter of the church and a giver to the needy, but neither will that save him. No man is saved by his works, good as they may be.
Remember this, and please never forget it: Christ is the Saviour, not your gifts, not your works. He offers you salvation as a free gift. It is in Christ, and when you receive Christ, you have salvation. "He that hath the Son, hath life." 1 John 5:12. But if you don't have the Son, you don't have life, and you cannot have eternal security until you have and keep Christ the Son.


What Does It Mean for the
Christian to Leave His "First Love"?

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:4, 5, emphasis added.
For the Christian to leave his first love, is to backslide, to fall away, to leave the Lord and His service, and to go over to the service of sin, Satan and the world. The Lord calls upon all such to repent and do their first works (the fruits of love), or else - else what? "I will take thy candlestick out of his place." This is an ultimatum from the Lord. If the sinner responds, repents, returns to his first love, and does his first works, all is well and good - he will be saved. But it is his to choose. If he does not do this, his light is removed, goes out, and the backslider is lost.


Does the Backslider Always Return
to the Lord Before Death?

No, far from it. That was the case of the first king of Israel, Saul. It is written of Saul that he was "turned into another man." "And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be TURNED INTO ANOTHER MAN." 1 Samuel 10:6 emphasis added. Yet Saul backslid from his high and exalted position, disobeyed the Lord, and at last took his own life (1 Samuel 31:1-6). It cannot be said in this case that Saul was not converted, because God says that he was. Yet, he took his own life with no opportunity of repentance.


No Man Can Pluck Out

Finally, let us look at the text which has probably been quoted more than any other to support the doctrine of eternal security. Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28, 29.
What a tremendous promise this should be for every trusting child of God! At first glance, it does seem to guarantee some sort of immunity against spiritual loss, but we have not read the entire text. Verse 27 is an integral part of the thought, and it lays down a specific condition for the fulfillment of the promise in verses 28 and 29. "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life." Please notice that it is only God's true followers who nestle safely in His protecting hand. He gives eternal life only to the faithful sheep who hear and follow Him. It is this hearing and following which provides immunity against being plucked away by the devil or his agents. The protection is from enemies without who seek to carry off the sheep, but not from unfaithfulness of the sheep who might choose not to follow any longer. No one can pluck them out of the Father's hand, but they may choose to jump out at any time. God never even hints that He will interfere with the freedom of choice of His followers. Christians can choose to be lost just as surely as sinners can choose to be saved.
Just think how useless would be all the hundreds of biblical warnings against apostasy if it were impossible to experience it. Why would the Spirit have led Paul, Peter, and all the others to pen such solemn threats and admonitions against eternal loss if they were in no danger of suffering it? And if it is true that the "once saved" are eternally secure, surely the devil would know it. Therefore, he would never waste any time on believers, knowing how impossible it would be to cause them to be lost. Yet, we all know by experience that Satan works even harder to pull away the saints from following Christ.
We have to conclude that salvation does not consist of a single, irrevocable commitment, whether past or present. Being saved is the experience of living Christ's own life by divine imputation and impartation. It is never a reality except in continual, dynamic relationship with Jesus, the source of eternal life. Being saved must be spoken of in all three tenses of time in order to be completely biblical. It has happened, it is happening, and it will happen. Perhaps, this illustration by Glenn Fillman will help explain it.


Saved - Past, Present and Future

Bill Jones is fishing several miles out in the ocean. His boat capsizes and sinks to the bottom. He is unable to swim to safety. Just then, another fishing boat comes along, but it is so heavily loaded that it is impossible to take on another passenger. Because they want to rescue the doomed man, however, the crew throws him a rope. "Here, take this rope," they say. "We will tow you to shore." As he takes the rope, Bill Jones says, "Thank God, I am saved!" And he is saved, as long as he holds on to the rope. Salvation is his, but he has a part to play in it. If he should at any time release his grasp on the rope and refuse to take it again, he would be lost. So it is with a person who has been rescued from sin. He remains saved as long as he holds on to the hand of Christ. If he should decide to release that hand and clasp the hand of the devil, he would be lost. His salvation depends on his decision and his action.
Actually, one can properly speak of salvation in three tenses - past, present, and future. He can say, "I have been saved" when he takes the rope, "I am being saved" as he is being towed to shore; and "I shall be saved" when he plants his feet firmly on shore. A converted person -has been saved- from the penalty of sin. We call that justification. He -is being saved- from the power of sin, and we call that sanctification. He -shall be saved- from the presence of sin when Christ comes, and that will be glorification. All three of these tenses are used in the Bible in connection with being saved.
In Romans 8:24 is the expression, "We are saved by hope." Weymouth is a more accurate translation. He says, "We have been saved," past tense. The Revised Standard Version correctly renders the phrase in 1 Corinthians 1:18 as "To us who are being saved." Then Acts 15:11 states, "that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved." So you see past, present, and future.
Now let's make sure that no one gets the wrong impression from our illustration of the man being rescued from drowning. Does the fact that he must cling to the rope to be saved, mean that we can earn our salvation by our own works? Absolutely not, a thousand times no! Remember that he was being towed by a power other than his own. He was merely cooperating with that power. He was holding on to the rope. He had to do that in order to be pulled to safety. As Christians we must confess our faith in Christ, we must remain steadfast to Him, we must bring forth the fruits of obedience; that is our part in holding on to Christ. He will never let us go. The only way we can separate ourselves from Him is to cut ourselves off deliberately and disconnect ourselves from Him, but we have the power to do that. We are still free moral agents. Our will has not been removed merely because we have become Christians.
At any point in our Christian life we can decide to turn back, to choose the things of the world rather than the things of God and heaven. We are saved only through faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour. "There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. However, we show our faith by our works. It is a manifestation of our love for Him. Keeping God's commandments and doing right are merely the result of His Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. These are the fruits of the Spirit. We do these things, not in order to be saved, but because we are saved, and as long as we love the Lord with all our heart, we are going to be obedient to Him. We will not let go of the rope. We will continue to cling to Christ as our only hope.

E
enid

It's too long. That's what I think of the article.

But, with time, I shall read it. So check back next week.

D
DelightedInU

I honestly didn't read it, but am responding based on the title.

I believe that you can not lose your salvation and Jesus will never take it away from you, BUT you can give it up. We are saved by faith and repentance of sin. That means that we practice sin no more. Yes, we will all sin again, but the key is repentance. If we practice sin, we give back our gift of salvation and put back on the flesh.

Hebrews Says:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Once saved always saved is not biblical. We are continually being saved through faith in the cross and resurrection. If we practice a lifestyle contrary faith, to the bible and of sin, beware. The good thing is that God's grace is always there for you to repent and come back to Him. Faith without works is dead. We must die to self and fix our eyes on Jesus.

B
BeYeDoers

I heard of a reformed pastor, when asked by a young man if you can lose your salvation, rather than go into a Calvinistic treatise on why your can't, he replied emphatically, "You CAN if you DO!"

T
TaylorOtwell

If you want to belive a true child of God can lose his salvation, cut Jeremiah 32:40 out of your Bible and tell people it's not true, because you certainly don't believe it.

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me.[/b] (Jeremiah 32:40)

Just in case someone tries to step in with some question about what the everlasting covenant is, I'll go ahead and answer it here:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, [b]through the blood of the everlasting covenant,[/b] (Hebrews 13:20)

--Notes on a few previous post

Hebrews 10:26 refers to looking to any other sacrifical substitute outside of Christ, which doesn't exist. Therefore, if someone hears about Christ, and yet returns to another sacrifical system (think about the recipients of this letter -- some were certainly Jews), there is not another sacrifice besides Jesus that can take away sins. These people are left with a fearful judgment.

H
hmmhmm

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confoness his name before My Father and before His angels.

I think this verse shows quite clear, unless God makes "empty threats" so called, it is possible to fall away.

God killed the entire generation in the desert, they where all chosen, his people, children. Yet almost all of them did not enter into the promised land.

Hebrews speaks about this and warns us, christians, believers , followers of Jesus unless we are careful, the same thing will happened to us.

Heb 4:1-11 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


S
sermonindex

I agree with enid... waaaaaaaay too long. But responding to the question, I believe in eternal security. I think if someone appears to have lost their salvation, I contend that they never really had it to begin with.

Krispy

T
TaylorOtwell

God killed the entire generation in the desert, they where all chosen, his people, children. Yet almost all of them did not enter into the promised land.

They were chosen according to being a part of the covenant physically. However, they were not spiritually regenerate. Paul warns Christians that it is possible to partake of the physical signs of the New Covenant, baptism and the Lord's supper, and yet be like many of the Israelites who partook of circumcision and the passover meal and yet were not regenerate spiritually. This passage does not deal with spiritually regenerate people losing their salvation.

The passage from Revelation you quoted does not support that a believer can lose their salvation. It simply states that those who overcome are eternally secure. Those who overcome are true belivers who never turn away from the Lord, by His grace, as demonstrated in Jeremiah 32:40

[b]Could someone who rejects the preservation of the saints please give a sane answer to Jeremiah 32:40?[/b]

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me.[/b] (Jeremiah 32:40)

T
tjservant

I am still not completely persuaded of this doctrine but would love to study more about it with you all. While reading this article something kinda’ stuck out in my mind. Please let me know what you all think.

Christians can choose to be lost just as surely as sinners can choose to be saved.

This statement from the article says a Christian CAN choose to be lost. My question is: WOULD a Christian ever choose to be lost?

I am talking about true Christians, not what we think or perceive to be so, but true Christians.

I believe the Calvinist would say that in a state of pre-regeneration or pre-salvation our sinful nature prohibits one from choosing Christ. Much like how a cow is free to do as it pleases…yet it would never choose to hunt and eat a rabbit. That is simply not in its nature; yet it is free to do so if it wishes.

Is this not the same situation...only in reverse? Having a new nature, a Christ like nature…being saved, would one ever choose to leave this state…even though they are free to do so?

I believe this verse speaks of this.

1 John 2:19 (King James Version)
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Just trying to gain a little more understanding.

Grace and peace

B
BlazedbyGod


TaylorOtwell wrote:
God killed the entire generation in the desert, they where all chosen, his people, children. Yet almost all of them did not enter into the promised land.

They were chosen according to being a part of the covenant physically. However, they were not spiritually regenerate. Paul warns Christians that it is possible to partake of the physical signs of the New Covenant, baptism and the Lord's supper, and yet be like many of the Israelites who partook of circumcision and the passover meal and yet were not regenerate spiritually. This passage does not deal with spiritually regenerate people losing their salvation.

The passage from Revelation you quoted does not support that a believer can lose their salvation. It simply states that those who overcome are eternally secure. Those who overcome are true belivers who never turn away from the Lord, by His grace, as demonstrated in Jeremiah 32:40

[b]Could someone who rejects the preservation of the saints please give a sane answer to Jeremiah 32:40?[/b]

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me.[/b] (Jeremiah 32:40)

Luke 12:41-53
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, [color=990000]Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, AND WILL CUT HIM IN SUNDER, [b]AND WILL APPOINT HIM HIS PORTITON WITH THE UNBELIEVERS[/b]. 47 And that servant, [b]which KNEW his lord's will, and prepared not himself, NEITHER did ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, shall be beaten with many stripes[/b]. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/color]

All these verses are really saying the same thing. Willful sin shatters the relationship by which eternal life is obtained. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security. "If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24. "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch." John 15:6. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51. "If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22. "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:10. "For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." Hebrews 3:14. "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV). "If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15. "Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14. "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

John 15: [color=FF0000] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch [b]IN ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away[/b]:[/color]

T
TaylorOtwell

Luke 12:41-53

This passage does not speak of a genuine believe losing their salvation. Compare what Jesus is saying with the Pharisees of the time. They were supposed to be the servants of the house. They were supposed to know the Law. But, they began to beat the servants and act wickedly. Even though they were expecting to be the highest in the Kingdom of God, they will shockingly find themselves cast away with unbelievers. Why? Because they were never true believers. Jesus tells His disciples to take heed of this.

[b]Again, can anyone give a good answer as to why Jeremiah 32:40 shouldn't be taken for what it says... that God's new covenant people "will not turn from Him."...?[/b]

Jeremiah 32:40 puts the nail in the coffin of this wicked heresy.

B
BlazedbyGod

John 15:[color=FF0000] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch [b]IN ME[/b] that beareth not fruit he taketh away:[/color]

B
BlazedbyGod


TaylorOtwell wrote:
Luke 12:41-53

This passage does not speak of a genuine believe losing their salvation. Compare what Jesus is saying with the Pharisees of the time. They were supposed to be the servants of the house. They were supposed to know the Law. But, they began to beat the servants and act wickedly. Even though they were expecting to be the highest in the Kingdom of God, they will shockingly find themselves cast away with unbelievers. Why? Because they were never true believers. Jesus tells His disciples to take heed of this.

[b]Again, can anyone give a good answer as to why Jeremiah 32:40 shouldn't be taken for what it says... that God's new covenant people "will not turn from Him."...?[/b]

Jeremiah 32:40 puts the nail in the coffin of this wicked heresy.

Jeremiah 32:40 speaks of the jewish people as a whole, as a people-God was basically saying of his chosen people; that never as a whole will they depart from himeven from when the transference from the Old Covenant unto the New Covenant-he will always have the jewish remnant-also, Jeremiah 32:40 does in fact speak of people who remain/abide in the mediator of the everlasting covenant, because God's law is in their heart and they do abide by it in Christ. So, of course in that context Jeremiah 32:40 is 100% TRUTH.

But, it is possible for people to "..not endure until the end" or to "...deny him..."

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: [b]if we deny him, HE ALSO WILL DENY US[/b]:...

T
TaylorOtwell

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace: and such branches the husbandman taketh away. (John Gill)

T
TaylorOtwell

If each and ever member of the Everlasting Covenant the Lord inspires to fear Him as Jeremiah 32:40 indicates, then it makes sense logically that no member of the Everlasting Covenant will ever depart from Lord. Jeremiah 32:40 does not only speak of a corporate preservation, but an individual preservation, you can't have the latter without the former.

H
hmmhmm

I benefited much from John Gill, but he as many calvinist twist certain parts of the bible to fit their doctrine. The word says what it says.

How can you be in Christ and not be in him?

we have to stop this twisting the word to fit doctrines. Make the text mean something else then what it says.

We can try explain away great parts of the bible and come up with satisfying answers to make us at ease. Or we can believe the word just as it is writen.

T
TaylorOtwell

Also, what does John 6:39 mean? "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me [b]I should lose nothing[/b], but should raise it up again at the last day."

Everyone which has been given to Christ before the foundation of the world will never be lost, but raised on the last day.

B
BlazedbyGod

2 Time 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: [b]if we deny him, HE WILL ALSO DENY US:[/b]

Matt 10:33 But [b]whosoever[/b] shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

WHOSOEVER: whether believer, or an unbeliever-"WHOSOEVER(anyone)

T
TaylorOtwell

2 Time 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, HE WILL ALSO DENY US:

I agree. What true Christian would live in perpetual denial of the Lord? It shows they are not true believers.

T
TaylorOtwell

Hmmhmm, John Gill did not twist Scripture... Check out Romans 11

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

These unbelieving Jews are described as branches, and they were not true believers. Therefore, it is possible to call unfruitful hypocrites who claim to be part of the churches "branches".

B
BlazedbyGod


TaylorOtwell wrote:
2 Time 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, HE WILL ALSO DENY US:

I agree. What true Christian would live in perpetual denial of the Lord? It shows they are not true believers.

2 Time 2:12 If WE suffer, WE shall also reign with him: if WE deny him, he will also deny US:

Apostle Paul included himself "we"

1 Cor 9:7But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, [b]I myself should be a castaway[/b](REPROBATE)

B
BlazedbyGod


TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm, John Gill did not twist Scripture... Check out Romans 11

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

These unbelieving Jews are described as branches, and they were not true believers. Therefore, it is possible to call unfruitful hypocrites who claim to be part of the churches "branches".

And then he goes on to tell even the graffted in ones that they can be CUT OFF:

Rom 1117 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [b]take heed lest he also spare not thee[/b]. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, [b]if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF.[/b] 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

T
TaylorOtwell

Yes. Gentiles can be hypocrites too. Gentiles should not assume that because His salvation is available to them, they are automatically guranteed heaven if they show no fruit of salvation.

What does John 6:39 mean?

J
JoanM

My goodness, as I wrote this out so did many others write and post. Good Bible verses to examine. A choice: thoughts hidden in a thread.

BlazedbyGod wrote: [i][u]What do you all think about this article[/i][/u]:

There is some wonderful truth in that article. And it is always good to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I would think that this subject has been much discussed in these forums, but I am pretty new here. As always, with the words of man, there are difficulties. You will no doubt find difficulties (wrong speaking) in what I am writing as I did in what your author wrote. It has always helped me most to [b]first get clear about who God is[/b]. After that, who man is, is a piece of cake. When it comes to sovereignty in salvation, I’m going to go for God’s. Isaiah did not choose the death of the King that ruled over him. I did not choose my death 2000 years ago, the death of what Paul calls the old man. When I heard that Divine Truth, it was over. Remember repentance.

Your author wrote: [i][u]To them salvation was not connected with obedience, or advancing in spiritual growth[/i][/u]. There is a relationship but I have not yet seen in the Bible that man chooses to obey and is [u]consequently saved[/u]. What I do find in the Bible, and in life, is that after salvation there is some ability to choose, where as before there was not. The ability to choose I am referring to is the choose “life” and “good” as God shows us in the Bible, choose “follow” and the “trust and obey”. This ability does seem to grow, most noticeably as the Truth of the Word of God is revealed to me. It really seems to me that the faith I received was not my faith, but the faith of Christ.

[u]Regeneration by decision-making?[/u] I just can’t find that in the Bible. There is a lot of choosing in the OT (see Strong) and a lot of difficulty in ability. Even Paul, after God saved Him, expressed problems in ability at certain points and the way through those problems. His testimony omits the necessity to choose in order to be saved. As nearly as I can tell, revelation of Divine Truth, itself, settles the issue. If making a decision and obeying (the Truth that was heard) were part of what is needful in presenting the gospel, in order to be saved, wouldn’t Jesus have told Nicodemus?

Salvation is as much a miracle as feeding 5000. It is the work of God not man. John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Many things follow from all these things. As one who has meetings you know these things. Where does the power to endure come from?

Still in all, preaching this way could encourage people to examine themselves and to examine the whole Word of God. I would not be surprised if there are as many people clinging to a false security in salvation by the works of man as cling to an idea that Grace is for lawlessness rather than growth in Christ. Being taught by God to obey seems to [u]follow[/u] salvation and there is a great need there in these days.

B
BlazedbyGod


These Gentiles were " ....in his goodness.."-that is not a hypocrite. And they told to "remain/abide" in his goodness, or they WOULD be cut off also. He says to the FAITHFUL ones.

The word "abide" means to REMAIN

D
DelightedInU

Once saved always saved is an excuse that many Christians have deceived themselves with so that they may live as they please, without fear of judgment. It is a lie from Satan. Satan wants you to think that you cannot be lost simply because you said some prayer once. Do you think God would let His only Son die horrifically so that His creation could say a prayer and then turn around and do the things which He hates? Jesus dies so that we in turn have power to die to ourselves and follow Him. Freewill works both ways. He won't let you go but you can choose to walk away from Him. I've witnessed many a Christian walk away from God and you cannot tell me that they were not saved to begin with. They were and they willingly gave into serve their own lusts, rather than serve their Savior.

B
BlazedbyGod


TaylorOtwell wrote:
2 Time 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, HE WILL ALSO DENY US:

I agree. What true Christian would live in perpetual denial of the Lord? It shows they are not true believers.

What false Christian could perpetually suffer with him? The fact is, Paul speaks of the same Christian that suffers with Christ, will reign with him, but he also speaks of that SAME christian that he denys Christ, Christ will deny him.

T
tjservant

I've witnessed many a Christian walk away from God and you cannot tell me that they were not saved to begin with

What do you think about 1 John 2:19 (KJV)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Not coming against you or any doctrine. Just looking for truth.

B
BlazedbyGod

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, [b]but they were not of us[/b]; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not [b]ALL[/b] of us."

The answer is in verse18:
v18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [b]antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists[/b]; whereby we know that it is the last time. [b]THEY[/b] went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These are "antichrists" or false christs, that were purposefully bringing in heresises. And Paul tells us in 1 Cor 11:19 that "heresies" from false christs must be AMONG us, so that they that are approved (of God) are manifested unto us.

That is the reason " ..they went out from us"-because when the genuine is manifested, so is the false.....

These were men who were never saved-"....but they were not of us.." -he means even while they were among us, they were not of us.

T
tjservant

These were men who were never saved-"....but they were not of us.." -he means even while they were among us, they were not of us.

Thats my point. Many OSAS folks say that people do not fall away. They say they were never saved to begin with. Doesn't this verse support that?

B
BlazedbyGod


tjservant wrote:
These were men who were never saved-"....but they were not of us.." -he means even while they were among us, they were not of us.

Thats my point. Many OSAS folks say that people do not fall away. They say they were never saved to begin with. Doesn't this verse support that?

Not necessarily, because the Bible teaches that those who do fall away "were ONCE enlightened.."

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were [b]once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost[/b], 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 [b]If they shall fall away, to renew them AGAIN unto repentance[/b]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The Bible teaches that those who can fall away, were individuals who did at least once repent before, "..for it is impossible...to renew them AGAIN unto repentance.." It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever? . It says they were "..ONCE ENLIGHTENED"-a clear indication that they are not now enlightened.

One thing is clear though: An individual MUST continue in the Spirit, AND be continually RENEWED by the Spirit-if not, they become fruitless and fall away. For God have saved us by the washing of regeneration, and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST (Titus 3:5) You can only abide, as long as you are renewed.

If the water in our physical body is not renewed-we dehydrate, and the process of slow death occurs.


B
BeYeDoers

Salvation is not something that we carry around in our pockets and then one day...oops, I lost it. It can't be [i]lost[/i]. That is the thrust of Jesus' preaching in John...He won't lose our salvation, but keep it if we remain in Him. The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality. For the sake of emphasis, and I think the best response for anyone, Calvinist, Arminian, or "Independent" is what I posted earlier, quoting a Reformed pastor:

"You CAN if you DO!"

T
tjservant

It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever?

All good questions. What about these verses Matthew 7:22-23

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How can one prophesy, cast out demons, and do mighty works in Gods name, yet God declare He never knew them?

It seems to me that one can look and even act VERY Christian like...without being one at all.

Just rambling.

T
tjservant


BeYeDoers wrote:
The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality.

I asked this earlier.

A statement from the article says a Christian CAN choose to be lost. My question is: WOULD a Christian ever choose to be lost?

I am talking about true Christians, not what we think or perceive to be so, but true Christians.

"You CAN if you DO!"

Thats good.

B
BlazedbyGod


BeYeDoers wrote:
Salvation is not something that we carry around in our pockets and then one day...oops, I lost it. It can't be [i]lost[/i]. That is the thrust of Jesus' preaching in John...He won't lose our salvation, but keep it if we remain in Him. The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality. For the sake of emphasis, and I think the best response for anyone, Calvinist, Arminian, or "Independent" is what I posted earlier, quoting a Reformed pastor:

"You CAN if you DO!"

Salvation itself can't be lost.........but it can neglected. And anything you neglect, will eventually be lost.

Heb 2:11 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip......3 How shall we escape, if we [b]neglect so great salvation[/b]

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, [b]brethren[/b], I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, [b]IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain[/b]

B
BeYeDoers

Personally, the problem I have with the idea of a saved person becoming lost is not a scriptural one, but a logical one.

How can a new creation become un-born again? To play on Nicodemus' question, can a man enter a second time into God's womb and then un-conceive himself?

B
BlazedbyGod


tjservant wrote:
It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever?

All good questions. What about these verses Matthew 7:22-23

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How can one prophesy, cast out demons, and do mighty works in Gods name, yet God declare He never knew them?

It seems to me that one can look and even act VERY Christian like...without being one at all.

Just rambling.

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise [b]false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders[/b]; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

One explanation: Christ never actually said they did what they claimed to do, Christ just makes mention of what it is exactly they will say to him. The fact that Christ never knew them, is clear that they never did this miracles "IN his name"

Also, though they claimed to do these miracles in "his name"-it could also be that they were, as Paul says: "..believing on, and preaching ANOTHER Jesus..."

T
tjservant

Christ never actually said they did what they claimed to do, Christ just makes mention of what it is exactly they will say to him.

Using this way of thinking I would think that in Hebrews 6:4 "...tasted of the heavenly gift...", we should recognize the difference in tasted, eaten, and digested. He only says tasted.

Verse 9 says “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.” It seems that the author is clearly making a distinction between those who have merely ‘tasted’ and those who have tasted, eaten and digested the goodness of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. .

R
rbanks

Jesus said take heed so that you want be deceive. The bible gives many clear warnings to the believers in Christ about continuing in salvation until the day of redemption.

Salvation is seen in scripture as past, present, and future. Jesus also said about the many trials we would have to face and that he that endureth unto the end the same shall be saved.

We as believers who have trusted in the Lord for salvation are to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Jesus also said that it would get so deceptive toward the end time that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.

Some observations to consider:
Jesus gives us in His Word great encouragement to us who have trusted in Him for salvation that nobody would be able to pluck us out of His Hand nor the Father’s who gave us to Him. He gives us security that as long as we are trusting in Him and following Him, we can know He will keep us.

He also gives us great warning about deception, sin, lukewarm ness, losing our first love, and the need of maturing in our faith through trials and temptations. These warnings in the bible are not directed to the unsaved but to the saved; who have been given a fear of God that will cause them to follow out their salvation to completion.

The “once saved always saved doctrine” is not biblical and Jesus never said it because he always warned his sheep of dangers ahead and the danger of not finishing what was started.

Many unconverted people have taken this doctrine, because they prayed and felt that they were saved and can never be lost, and have deceived themselves because they have no fear of God in keeping his commandments and continuing out their salvation.

I believe the bible teaches us that in Jesus, abiding and trusting in Him, we have eternal security as long as we stay humbly following his commandments and warnings and never let anything take our faith and love away from Him. The bible says if we sin we have an advocate with the father, so as soon as we sin and fellowship is broken we humbly repent and ask for forgiveness so that our fellowship can be restored not allowing the devil to condemn us into turning to a hard heart in forsaking the Lord by continuing in sin.

As a brother stated, the truly saved, who are in covenant with the Lord, have been given a fear to keep his commandments and walk in His ways. The truly saved have truly repented with a sorrow for sin not to be repented of, and His fear is guiding them and they are full of Joy and Love for Him.

Adam was once in a saved relationship with the lord until he sinned and fell away but God showed Him how to come back to Him. We can say Lord, Lord or claim salvation all we won’t to, but if we live in sin Jesus cannot abide in our Life. Salvation is not a thing we have but a person who has us and we have Him.

Salvation is not something we have of ourselves neither is it something we can claim we have apart from Him. The Lord Jesus is our Salvation. He that hath the Son hath Life He that hath not the Son hath not Life. Eternal life is in knowing a person, the Lord Jesus, and knowing Him is salvation, and He keeps you from sin! He that is born of God sinneth not because the seed of God remains in Him and he cannot continue in sin because He is born of God.

R
roaringlamb

I think this passage pretty much clears it all up-

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also [b]called[/b], and those whom he called he also [b]justified[/b], and those whom he justified he also [b]glorified[/b].

Please note the highlighted words, and then tell me how a person who is justified(declared righteous) suddenly becomes unrighteous.

Does Christ become foul to His Father in Heaven, and the cross loses its power to save a soul?

Also, simply because a person may seemingly be walking away from the Lord, we cannot for sure say they are saved, or are not saved.

What if we had seen David with Bathsheba? Would we have said that he was unsaved?

Or how about when Jeremiah, Job, or Elijah sinned by murmuring against God's providence? After all, God demands perfect trust does He not?

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" and if "Perfect love casts out fear", what of these men who feared?

You cannot write off Paul by putting Christ up against him, if your view doesn't mesh, then the Book is not in error.

Before going to far in this discussion, please read Hebrews 11, and take note of the names mentioned there. Tell me, when did we ever see repentance from Abraham for lying about Sarah?

When did Lot ever repent for living in a wicked town? Yet in another Epistle, he is called "just".

As for a NT example, when did Peter repent for stumbling Gentile believers when Paul confronted him? Also, if indeed one who is justified can be unjustified, why does Peter sat we are "kept by the power of God" and that we have "an inheritance incorruptible"?

T
tjservant

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confoness his name before My Father and before His angels.

Not in reply to anyone in particular.

One thing I have wondered about this verse is why would the sovereign and omniscient God, He who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), write a name in the Book of Life when He knows He will only have to erase it when that person eventually apostatizes and denies the faith?

T
tjservant


BeYeDoers wrote:
Personally, the problem I have with the idea of a saved person becoming lost is not a scriptural one, but a logical one.

How can a new creation become un-born again? To play on Nicodemus' question, can a man enter a second time into God's womb and then un-conceive himself?

Good questions.

If someone falls away for a while...do they get born again...again? It does seem strange to say someone got re-born again.

B
BeYeDoers

roaringlamb, are you, right now, glorified?

S
sermonindex

IF I Could Lose My Salvation...

1. I would be doing what Christ said no one is able to do: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man (Greek: any) pluck them out of my hand. My Father, who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand." John 10:28-29

2. I would break the Holy Spirit’s seal, which was to remain on me, thereby proving that God didn’t know my future when He sealed me. "And grieve not the Holy spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Eph. 4:30

3. I would make it impossible for God to answer
Christ’s prayer: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

4. I would make it impossible for Christ to finish the work He said He would finish: "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."
Phil.1:6 "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith." Heb. 12:2

5. I would also stop God’s promised chain of activity in my life. "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30

6. I would reverse God’s promise of "no judgment"
against me and force Him charge sin to my
account,contrary to His promises: "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (judgment); but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 "There is therefore now no condemnation (judgment) to them who are in Christ Jesus." Rom. 8.1 "Who shall lay any thing (sin)to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth?" Rom. 8:33 II Cor. 5:19 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Rom. 4:8 "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Heb. 8:12

7. I would become "unborn" and "unadopted" proving God less loving than most humans. Paul’s use of the term adoption in Romans is significant in that Jewish law made it impossible for an adopted child to be unadopted. Rom. 8:15

8. I would prove that even God can have a power
failure: "Who are kept by the power of God through
faith unto salvation..." I Peter 1:5 (One might
ask,"but what if my faith fails?" It won’t because
saving faith is God-given - Phil. 1:29, Eph. 2:8, Acts 13:48,John 6:65, 10:26.)
Jesus Himself makes intercession for us to this end even as He did Peter,"But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." (Luke 22:32)

9. I would ruin what Christ had forever made
perfect:"For by one offering He hath perfected for
ever them that are sanctified... we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb. 10:14,10

10. I would show that God’s gift was not "free" as
promised: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23 "Being justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..." Romans 3:24

11. I would show that the justification I received on the basis of grace(unmerited favor) was lost because I became undeserving. Romans 5:1, 11:6, Titus 3:5

12.I would be "foolish" enough to take over
the Holy Spirit’s work: "Are ye so foolish, having
begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal. 3:3

13.I would substitute my righteousness for God’s
righteousness (credited to me) as the requirement for eternal life. (This is the heart of the matter!) Paul wanted to be "found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of (from) God, by faith..." Phil. 3:9, "But unto him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
righteousness." Romans 4:5, and read this whole
chapter for a discussion of imputed righteousness.
"For they (the Israelites), being ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end(fulfillment)of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom.10:3, "For He(God) hath made Him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." II
Cor. 5:21

14. I would make Christ a liar in His promise, "I will never (very strong in the Greek: never, no, not ever)leave thee nor forsake thee (Hebrews 13:5) and "the Son abideth ever (forever)" John 8:35. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,that they shall not depart from me. Jer.32:40 (this verse is especially for those who say we can't lose our salvation but we can depart from Him)

15.I would make void the promise that the gifts
(salvation is a gift) and calling of God are without repentance (a change of mind). Romans 11:29

16. I would demonstrate that I have supernatural
knowledge, for I would KNOW that I was saved
previously, and I would KNOW that I am now lost, and I would KNOW that such will never change in the future. Guilt from rebellion admittedly makes one FEEL lost. But what is our final authority here, Bible facts, or subjective feelings?
He loves me He loves me not mentality.

17. If I could lose my salvation, I would prove I
never had the genuine article, for God never promises "temporary life"; He only offers
eternal(everlasting)life. John 3:15-16,36

Why do some people believe salvation can be lost?
Perhaps in part because they stumble over the following scriptures:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (paraphrased) It is impossible for those enlightened to be renewed to repentance IF they fall away. Interestingly, this seems to say "If you lose it, you can’t get it back."

What are "Hebrews"? Jews.
What were they in danger of falling away TO. Sin? No,back into faith in the first (law) covenant as their source of righteousness,rather than in Christ alone as their source of righteousness. This book was written before 70 AD and the Jewish temple was still standing;animal sacrifices were still being offered. So when this passage warns about crucifying Christ afresh,(6:6) it isn’t talking about sinning some sin.We do not crucify Him over again when we sin. It is talking about renewing the symbol as a substitute for the real thing. The theme of Hebrews is how the new covenant is better than the old.

Note also that Paul presented this as a hypothetical situation ("if"), but in verse 9 he says he knew the Hebrews wouldn’t knowingly do such a thing.

Galatians 5:4 "Ye are fallen from grace." One can fall from grace, but the question is, how? The context states that we fall from grace through lawkeeping in order to be justified. Not lawbreaking, lawkeeping.
This is not the definition of falling from grace that I have heard from anyone who thinks salvation can be lost!

Matt. 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13 "He that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This thought occurs only in these 3 places in the
Bible, and each is in the context of a description of a time of persecution or tribulation. Note that in each what the people need to be delivered (saved) from is the physical persecution and physical death, rather than spiritual death.

The Bible indicates that all who have been justified WILL be glorified (Romans 8:30), thus it does not depend on my endurance, but whether the shed blood I have trusted in is SUFFICIENT to cleanse from all sin. THAT is what the object of faith is to be. And it is sufficient. That is what propitiatory means in Romans 3:24.

Philippians 2:12 "Work out your own salvation with
fear and trembling."

There’s a bit difference between saying, "work out" to a saved person, and "work for" to one not in possession of salvation. This book is addressed to saints (set apart ones - ie. saved persons). Phil.2:13 clarifies that God was working IN these people. Paul was telling them to let that power loose so it could change their life - enable them to grow in their sanctification and overcome problems described in
Philippians 2 (see vs. 2-4, 14 ). But Philippians 1:6 promises these people that they would be preserved to the day of judgment.

Hebrews 5:9 "He became the author of eternal salvation (there is no other kind!) to all those who obey Him."
The key word here is obey. In what way? 100%
obedience? If it depends on such, James 2:10 and
Galatians 3:10 tell us that 99% won’t work. For how long? How many commands? It makes more sense to link this to the "obedience of faith" described in Romans 1:5. When Jesus was asked how to do the works of God,He said to believe in Him. John 6:28-29.

James 2:26 "Faith without works is dead." God isn’t weeding out naughty children here, he is describing genuine faith, which always results in a changed life in God’s time. This tells me that some who profess Christ don’t possess Him.

But there is a perspective here that must be
grasped.In James 2 we read, "ye see" and "shew me", and , "I will shew you", indicating that the passage is talking about how HUMANS can SEE if someone is a genuine Christian. The flip side of that coin is in Romans 4:1-6 where Abraham is spoken of (as in James 2).

But here, it indicates how GOD justifies one.And the basis for justification by Him is faith, not
works.

Verse 5 says specifically, "to the one that worketh not, but believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness. The only way to avoid a contradiction of thought in these two passages is to put them in their separate perspectives... how God justifies, and how humans can judge whether one is saved by what they see.

II Peter 1:5-8 We’re talking here about the result of salvation, not the means. As Christians grow in this pattern, the verses tell us they will be fruitful and they will be less likely to "stumble" (trip up; not the same Greek word as is used of a permanent fall),and they will be abundantly (as opposed to sparingly)rewarded in heaven.

I John 1:9 No (other) verse in the Bible requires
Christians to do a day-by-day confession of sin. There are two possible interpretations that
will blend with what the rest of the new testament
teaches on our forgiveness:

One makes this chapter topic "fellowship" (see verse 6), rather than salvation. In other words, confession of sin restores fellowship, but sonship is ours even if the sin is not confessed.

Another interpretation takes the immediate context
(1:8 and 1:10) and applies the stated errors to the Gnostic problem (other Gnostic problems are also discussed in the book of I John). The two verses seem to speak to unbelievers (His word and His truth are not in you is what the verses say). Gnostics were NOT saved. They DID deny that they had a sin nature and sinful deeds. So there was nothing they needed to be saved from. Thus these 3 verses, taken together(I John 1:8-10) are saying that the Gnostics needed to change
their view of sin and admit they were sinners by
nature and by action and confess that in order to be saved.

Time and space could not exhaust this issue as volumes of history has shown. Enough is available to all of us to search this matter out further. Drawing near to Him in prayer(bowing to His will)and meditating upon His Word should teach us of the Father's everlasting Love for His children in Christ.

What then shall we say to these things?...For I am
persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,nor height nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING(CREATURE, KJV), shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom.8:31-39

Would any deny what the Word of God tells us here in Rom.8:31-39? Note the words ANY OTHER CREATED THING(CREATURE,KJV). Are you and I a created thing? If so,even we shall not be able to separate ourselves from the love of God in Christ Jesus our LORD. Amen.

R
roaringlamb

roaringlamb, are you, right now, glorified?

I'll let Scripture answer this-
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 [b]and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus[/b],

I believe this is a past tense verb as is the verb form for "glorified" in Romans 8. So in effect, yes I am.

Has it been realized yet? No
Will it be realized? Yes, but not in this terrestrial form.

B
BlazedbyGod


tjservant wrote:
Christ never actually said they did what they claimed to do, Christ just makes mention of what it is exactly they will say to him.

Using this way of thinking I would think that in Hebrews 6:4 "...tasted of the heavenly gift...", we should recognize the difference in tasted, eaten, and digested. He only says tasted.

Verse 9 says “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.” It seems that the author is clearly making a distinction between those who have merely ‘tasted’ and those who have tasted, eaten and digested the goodness of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. .

1 Peter 2:1-3
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Ps 34:8 -
O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

One only needs a taste of the Lord to know and see that he is GOOD.

Also, even the fact that Jesus "tasted" death for everyman, is/was sufficient for the saving of man"
Heb 2:9 -
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should [b]taste[/b] death for every man.

Let us also remember, that though they "tasted of the heavenly gift"-they still were MADE PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost. The fact that they were made partakers, lets us know they did in fact go behind just a mere tasting

T
tjservant

Thanks again for your response Blazed...

I have a question about these verses in general.

(Hebrews 6:4-6)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If in fact one can fall away...there is no way to come back or regain what one once had(salvation).

Is this your view?

B
BlazedbyGod


tjservant wrote:
Thanks again for your response Blazed...

I have a question about these verses in general.

(Hebrews 6:4-6)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If in fact one can fall away...there is no way to come back or regain what one once had(salvation).

Is this your view?

I would say yes "...for it is IMPOSSIBLE... to renew them AGAIN unto repentance"-this individual(s) it is not possible that the Holy Spirit will again produce or grant repentance unto them-this also speaks of their inability at that time to even repent of this sin or any other sins they will committ from that point on. Once they gotten to this point, God has totally rejected them for good,thus they are now reprobate, conscious seared-the point of no return-like Saul. Another reason, it is impossible to renew them [b]AGAIN[/b] unto repentance, is because now that they have "..crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh..." is because "..there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"(Heb 10:26)

Once a person has crucified themselves afresh to the Son of God-Christ will take no pleasure in them whatsover-neither will he be willing to forgive them-ever-for at this point they have "..done DESPITE the Spirit of grace"-(which is blasphemy,(Mark 3:29, Heb 10:29) which is an insult against the Holy Ghost) (Heb 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: [b]but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him[/b].
Compare the word "despite" in Heb 10:29 with "blasphemy" in Mark 3:29 and you will understand what I mean by that.

Paul said of those who are saved-were crucified with Christ from the foundation of the world-well these individuals in Heb 6, have undone or reversed that, by putting Christ back on the cross : "...seeing they crucify [b]TO themselves[/b] the Son of God AFRESH,

The word "afresh" means to raise up (AGAIN), or back on the cross:
[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=388&version=kjv]"AFRESH" [/url]

I don't think it is " if in fact one can fall away."-because Heb 6:6 makes it clear that it is possible for one to fall away

2 Tim 2:12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: [b]if we deny him, he also WILL deny us[/b]:

B
BeYeDoers

so God only gives you one chance and if you blow it, there is no more hope? Even if you come back, God will have nothing to do with you?

B
BlazedbyGod


BeYeDoers wrote:
so God only gives you one chance and if you blow it, there is no more hope? Even if you come back, God will have nothing to do with you?

I am only speaking of the individuals spoken of or characterized in Heb 6:4-8. because that is the question that was asked of me, pertaining to that verse.

I will say,to answer your question a little more directly. If you blasphem the Holy Ghost, yes, THERE IS NO MORE HOPE. There is no coming back-"..it is IMPOSSIBLE to RENEW them AGAIN unto repentance.."-this is why at this point they have "..never forgiveness, neither in this world, or the one to come"

T
tjservant


BeYeDoers wrote:
so God only gives you one chance and if you blow it, there is no more hope? Even if you come back, God will have nothing to do with you?

These are the same questions I had.

Saying yes to these questions would not hold true to commonly acknowledged attributes of God (forgiveness, mercy, etc…) and is why I do not believe this portion of scripture is talking about “true” Christians.

I will be posting an article on perseverance of the saints on SI shortly. Please check it out.

B
BeYeDoers

What is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost?

How do I know if I have committed it?

S
sermonindex

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot his name out[/b] of the book of life,..."

Does this mean that He can [i]blot[/i] out our name, if He wanted too? With Christ saying that He will not, also could it apply that He can if He wanted too?

Not siding with anyone, I for one tend to believe that God will not cast me out, even if I stumble and sin. Suppose that is the case, fall back...back-slide whatever the case maybe. Then why would that person want to be restored? If we knew that God rejected us, hell was inevitable; there was no chance ever. God took our gift of salvation away...then why bother? Why not throw ourselves fully into sin, get rid of all our morals, steal, lust, lie; as they say...go out with a bang? So this means God's salvation is conditional? Then, how is that different than following after the law? Was that not conditional? Was that not based on what "I" can do? Where is the power in the Cross, if it is then limited and conditional base on what I do?

If this doctrine be true then I am as lost as someone who has never heard the Gospel! Have I acted un-becoming as a Christian? YES!! Have I always followed His commands? NO!

1 Sam. 15:11 "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried unto the Lord all night."

Lets say for argument that Saul lost his salvation; that God took it away. Did Saul, loose his salvation because of this act of disobedience? Or from the hardness of his heart?

It looks to me that there was a several
opportunities to repent and he didn't? verse 14 ..."bleating of the sheep in mine ears.." Samuel knew what Saul did, he could of went right for the heart. If you knew you disobeyed in your heart, and someone came to you, you would be grieved. Samuel left an opportunity for Saul to come clean.

What did Saul say next in verse 15, "[b]They[/b], have brought them from the Amalekites;...for the [b]people[/b] spared the best..." Again, not me to blame!!

16 "I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night. And he(Samuel) said unto him(Saul), [b]Say on[/b]." sort pompous and prideful coming from Saul; that was another opportunity.

Samuel goes onto say in verses 17,18 reminded him of what the Lord God has done and said unto him.

Verse 19, Samuel, asks why then did you commit this sin of disobeying the Lord? Possibly another opportunity to confess and repent!

But what does Saul say again, in verse 20; "Yes, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone in the way which the Lord sent me." vs 21 "But, the [b]people[/b] took the spoil..." Again someone else's fault.

Was Saul more interested in how he looked to the people or to God? So if Saul was truly saved, then we are all in a world of hurt.

Am I completely convinced about this subject...NO! Because my past as a "Christian" has been shameful and embarrassing. Have I back-slidden in the past...OH yes, so then I would have put Christ on the Cross again, crucified Him afresh. Then I am lost, I then live currently in a mind of eternal hell and then my outcome will be hell for eternity! Right???

Love
reformer

B
BlazedbyGod


tjservant wrote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
so God only gives you one chance and if you blow it, there is no more hope? Even if you come back, God will have nothing to do with you?

These are the same questions I had.

Saying yes to these questions would not hold true to commonly acknowledged attributes of God (forgiveness, mercy, etc…) and is why I do not believe this portion of scripture is talking about “true” Christians.

I will be posting an article on perseverance of the saints on SI shortly. Please check it out.

God is forgiving, YES, but he said he would not forgive Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost-is that contradictory?

T
tjservant

God is forgiving, YES, but he said he would not forgive Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost-is that contradictory?

No. But I am not sure that is what these scriptures are dealing with.

Once again, thanks for taking time to reply.

D
DelightedInU

First I'd like to add to the latest on the Blasphemy of the Spirit. It is the only unpardonable sin. It is unpardonable because you never came to God to get your pardon from sin. It is the continued rejection of God's Spirit until you die. If you come back to God you WILL be pardoned. So if you repent and come to God you don't need to worry about committing the unpardonable sin and not being forgiven.

As to salvation:
Galatians 5:7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

You ran well- Paul is saying to the Christians in Galatia that they once ran well but now do not. He professes that even true Christians can backslide - which leads to the next point, that a back slidden Christian who practices those things listed above in verse 20-21 WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven. This book is written to Christians. Paul warns, do not do these things or reap the consequences. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption or everlasting death and if you sow to the spirit you will reap everlasting life. There is a contrast. This is not just for non Christians. This is for us! Paul in Romans struggled with the flesh and doing thing things he knew he shouldn't. As Christians we can forfeit our salvation, not lose, forfeit it, when we give into the flesh. Christians have the power to overcome but some do not take hold of it and give in to the flesh. It's like the parable of the seeds and soils. It takes roots and grows but then is choked up and dies.

Open your eyes! There are so many scriptures that deal with this subject. Do you want to be responsible when you meet God in heaven and He asks you, why did you tell so and so they were "saved" when indeed they were following their own lusts. I'd rather be on the side of error(should I be)that says, repent, turn and follow hard because you are to work our to salvation with FEAR and trembling. Work it out! If you don't work out a muscle it shrivels and atrophies and is good for nothing. God hates waste. Waste is thrown into the fire. Teachers be careful of what you are leading your flock to believe about their eternal security.

B
BrianPaul

Like to put in my two cents.
You have to define child of God. If you are a child of God you are a child of God. You cant be unborn of the Father.
I dont think the question should be so much "can a christian lose their salvation." The better question is: Are you a christian? If you are a christian you are saved, if not you are not.

Just to hopefully encourage you all, i believe this is a simple thing, and i wont say i always understood this, but just think about what im saying, and it should make sense. If it doesn't pm me.

No man should say a christian can lose his salvation under any circumstance. There are plenty of pasages that support this.

Are you a christian? Yes, then you are saved. No, then you aren't saved.

What makes a Christian? Read first John.

L
learn

Quotes by some preachers

--Leonard Ravenhill said that he believe in instant purity but not instant maturity

--David Wilkerson said that one can only be saved if the Holy Spirit controls us completely (ie something like soul, mind and heart/body???--can't remember exactly which 3 words that he used)

--John Miller have said that we can invite the Holy Spirit either to take residence in a guest room/outer courtyard or in the main room (ie Holy Spirit directing our lives)


My thinking is the below and it allows the verses from the 2 opposing camps to be valid without conflicting with each other(ie Camp A that salvation cannot be lost versus camp B where salvation can be lost). Also in this explanation, it will prevent the Holy Spirit from coming in and going out and coming in again etc (ie when a person is saved, loses his salvation, gains it back etc)

2 Timothy 11-13
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him we will also live with him
If we endure, we will also reign with him
If we disown him, he will also disown us
If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself


Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace


--Many verses saying that we cannot lose our salvation
--Some verses asking us to persevere to the end

When we receive the Holy Spirit, we progress to 2 stages ie :

1st stage--adopted children and father relationship

2nd stage--When we mature with our walk with God, we will proceed to servant and master relationship. We are willing to become servants because we really love Him now and have much experience to know that we can fully trust Him and willing to suffer for Him


Bear in mind that God wants a relationship with us. He doesn't just want us to obey Him out of fear, but to obey Him out of love. (Perfect love caseth out fear). He wants us to obey Him because He knows whats best for us.

I'll start with the 2nd stage first
[Servant (ie us) and Master (ie God) relationship]
--Salvation cannot be lost

--In this relationship, the saved person allows the Holy Spirit to control him fully (ie mind, soul, body etc). Thus, the Holy Spirit is sealed with us and we cannot lose our salvation. After all, a servant cannot choose to reject or leave his master without his master's (God's) permission. Since the Holy Spirit is in control, the Holy Spirit is certainly the master and will not allow us (servants) to be lost


1st stage
Adopted child and father relationship

--When we are adopted, there are adoption papers stating that we are adopted and we are brought to stay in our father's house.

Now, the adopted child may rebel at times. However, as long as he doesn't tear up the adoption papers, the Holy Spirit stays in him. The Holy Spirit however is in the guestroom as the Holy Spirit has no full control of the adopted child (can't expect instant maturity when we first receive the Holy Spirit)

a) However, if the adopted child tears the adoption papers up (ie he fully rejects/disowns God and this rejection is in such a way that he will never come back even if God wants to accept him), the Holy Spirit leaves him (see 2 Tim 11-13, Hebrews 6:4-6)

b)On the other hand, the adopted child may be very disobedient and leaves home (but does not tear up the adoption paper)----this is when he backslides, the Holy Spirit is still in him asking the child to repent (the child is currently still save but in danger of losing his salvation--that's where all the bible verses asking us to persevere come in)

--If the child does not come home (ie repent) before he dies, then he is not saved ie he loses his salvation.
To be born of Christ, one needs to have faith and repent. Thus, before dying, one needs to repent if one has committed sins and been faithless. God has been faithful right up to the last minute before the adopted child dies (as the Holy Spirit is still within him) but as the child refuses to repent and come back to his father's house, he is not saved (2 Tim 11-13, Hebrews 6:4-6, Revelation 3:3, 14-19)


S
sermonindex

After some thought over time against the fact that God will take away salvation from man or woman. I am starting to see that God can if He so chooses to do so. The only reason I have to support this is King Saul's life. Of course that is up for debate. But mostly this is opinion. When I think of someone being disobedient over his life of being a Christian, having ups and downs, knowing what he or she should do, then I think a time will come where God will take away there privilege of being with Him in heaven. After a while one should wonder how long will God's patience last.

I was reading through the Pilgrims Progress, the part where Christian meets Despair.

Interpreter: Nay, stay, until I have shown thee a little more, and after that thou shalt go thy way. So, he took him by the hand again, and led him into a very dark room, where there sat a man in an iron cage. Now the man, to look on, seemed very sad. He sat with his eyes looking down to the ground, his hands folded together, and sighed as if he would break his heart.
Christian: What means this? At which the Interpreter bid him talk with the man.
Christian: What art thou?
Man: I am what I was not once.
Christian: What wast thou once?
Man: I was once a fair and flourishing professor (luke 8:13), both in mine own eyes, and also in the eyes of others. I was once, as I thought, fair for the Celestial City, and had even joy at the thoughts that I should get thither.
Christian: Well, but what art thou now?
Man: I am now a man of despair, and am shut up in it, as in this iron cage. I cannot get out. Oh, now I cannot!
Christian: But how earnest thou into this condition?
Man: I left off to watch and be sober. I laid the reins upon the neck of my lusts. I sinned against the light of the Word, and the Goodness of God. I have grieved the Holy Spirit, and He is gone. I tempted the Devil, and he is come to me. I have provoked God to anger, and He has left me. I have hardened my heart that I cannot repent.
Christian: For what did you bring yourself into this condition?
Man: For the lusts, pleasures, and profits of this world; in the enjoyment of which I did then promse myself much delight; but now every one of those things also bite me, and gnaw me, like burning worm.
Interpreter: Let this man's misery be remembered by thee, and be an everlasting caution to thee.

Of course this a a fictional, but I think this is a good illustration of what this thread is about. How do we really know if God will not take away man's salvation? He is God...can He not do what ever He wants? His ways are higher than ours?


R
rbanks

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Brethren we better take heed to what Jude says and quit holding to men’s doctrines. I find so many times that people look to doctrines that make them comfortable thinking that their doctrine will save them and keep them saved.

A person believing in once saved always saved don’t make them saved nor will it keep them saved. Jesus is our eternal security not a belief in eternal security. He that hath the Son hath Life and he that hath not the Son hath not Life.

S
sermonindex

Do we ask the right questions concerning this issue?

Is this the right question, "Can a saved man be lost? or "Onced saved always saved?" or "Can I lose my salvation?" ... are these the right questions?

I tend to think that they are not because they seem to turn the focus of our salvation to us and not to God.

The very word, "salvation" means we were rescued from something. We did not save ourselves. We could not rescue ourselves any more than a drowning man can rescue himself. Much more us, because we were not drowning...we were dead!

So should the question be rather, "How does God save men, and how does He keep them?"

The scripture is clear, there is none that seek after God. He sought us. He found us in our blood, lying on the side of the road, beaten and left for dead. He bathed our wounds, set us on His own beast and brought us to a place of rest. And there He promised to pay for all of our debts.
He sought us, the lost sheep, wandering away not even looking for the shepherd.

So can we ask a new question, and have discussion concerning this new question maybe?

How does God save men, and how does He keep them?

Michael

B
BlazedbyGod


reformer wrote:
After some thought over time against the fact that God will take away salvation from man or woman. I am starting to see that God can if He so chooses to do so. The only reason I have to support this is King Saul's life. Of course that is up for debate. But mostly this is opinion. When I think of someone being disobedient over his life of being a Christian, having ups and downs, knowing what he or she should do, then I think a time will come where God will take away there privilege of being with Him in heaven. After a while one should wonder how long will God's patience last.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 22:19 [color=FF0000]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, [b]God shall take away his part out of the book of life[/b], AND out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book[/color]

Ones name can only be taken OUT OF THE BOOK of Life, if it was in fact written in the book of life.

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: [b]if we deny him, he also will deny us[/b]:


Thanks for posting that reformer.

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