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The Blessed Mother Mary

M
MarcG

We must understand Mary in the light of Jesus and His redemptive work.
Just as Jesus was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, Mary too was foreshadowed.

Jesus was the new Adam/ Mary was the new Eve.

Jesus was from the line of David/ Mary is the Queen Mother of the Davidic King

As the Ark of the Covenant was a powerful weapon in the battles of the Old Testament. Mary, the Ark of the New Testament is a powerful weapon given to us at the foot of the cross by Jesus.
We are all the beloved.

YBIC
Marc

M
MaryJane

Greetings

This is false Catholic doctrine that is not based on scripture and sadly has deceived many. Jesus Christ alone is our Savior there is no other.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Will be praying for your eyes to be opened to the truth.
God Bless
MJ

D
DelightedInU


MarcG wrote:
We must understand Mary in the light of Jesus and His redemptive work.
Just as Jesus was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, Mary too was foreshadowed.

Jesus was the new Adam/ Mary was the new Eve.

Jesus was from the line of David/ Mary is the Queen Mother of the Davidic King

As the Ark of the Covenant was a powerful weapon in the battles of the Old Testament. Mary, the Ark of the New Testament is a powerful weapon given to us at the foot of the cross by Jesus.
We are all the beloved.

YBIC
Marc

Your foreshadowings do not make sense. Mary can not be the new Eve because if Jesus is the new Adam then his wife would be the new Eve logically. Jesus did not have a wife.

Mary is simply the mother of Jesus, a blessed and God fearing woman.

1 Timothy 2:
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all

Mary was indeed obedient and submitted to Jesus. She has no authority over Him as seen in John.

John 2

1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

M
Miccah

Greetings to SI Marc :-)


[u][b]John 14:6 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


M
MarcG

MJ,

You are absolutely right when you say Jesus is the only way to salvation.But Jesus, our Creator and Redeemer, gives us many weapons to combat evil. Brothers and sisters in Christ that lead us too him, The Holy Bible, God's written word etc. The communion, of our brothers and sisters in faith, is not broken with death.The Book Revelation talks about the prayers of the faithfull ascending to God. They're in Heaven, so who are they praying for?
Me and you little sister.
Think about it.
There they are, Jesus the new King reigning in heaven offering himself to the Father and all our brothers and sisters who have gone on before us worshiping and offering prayers in the Glory of God. The Davidic kings didn't have their wives as Queen because they had many wives. they had their mothers as their Queen. I beleive it's 2 Samuel. King David dies. Check the posture of his wife Bethsheeba before him. After his death Check the posture of the now new king, King Soloman. What posture does he take before his mother?
What image is given to John in Rev. when he sees a vision of the new heavenly Jerusalem and yes the Ark of the Covenant. end of chp 11 beginning of chptr 12
Just remember God is our Father
Jesus is our brother
and yes Mary is our mother
Jesus deserved the best for his mother and then he graciously gave her to us.
Aren't families Wonderful

YBIC
Marc

M
MarcG

Back up a little bit in John's Gospel.
In the Beginning was the Word
then the next day
then the next day
then the next day
and the Third day
this would be the seventh day
and what did man say when he awoke from his sleep on the seventh day and saw Eve.
WOMAN!!!!!
And what did Jesus say in John's gospel on the seventh day
WOMAN !!!
Did John bring the two creation stories and tie them to the NEW creation through Jesus By accident.
Doubtful
YBIC
Marc

S
sojourner7

Marc, this "Queen of Heaven" is a heresy that
doesn't have foundations in scripture. God
does not have need of a family, and Mary is
blessed only because she was chosen to bear
the Saviour!!

G
ginnyrose


I suggest you carefully consider Mark 3:32-35: And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever, shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." Do you not see that biological connections mean nothing to Jesus? but that obedience does? Big difference, don't you think?

Yes, families are wonderful but as I understand scripture they will mean little in eternity. For one thing people will not marry because Jesus says people will be as the angels who neither marry nor are given in marriage.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

M
MarcG

Greetings

Yes Jesus our brother went to the cross for our redemption He is the sole mediator to the father.
Because of Him we are allowed to paticipate in the redemption of others. Through prayer, fasting, and other corporal works of mercy etc. we respond to the grace, that we can in noooo way earn, and help build His Church which is His Body.
Gotta go
Love to all
Marc

M
MarcG

Yes Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus but
she also had free will. She could have said no like Eve.
But she said to Gabriel be it done to me according thy will.
Rev 12 1 what is she wearing on her head
and how many stars

Who but a queen wears a crown. Where did John say he saw this vision?

Love
Marc

M
Miccah

Marc,

I do find it a little odd that with your first post in this forum, you would exalt Mary in your heading over Jesus :-(

Instead of a Subject line like: "Jesus lives", or "Jesus is the way"! or "Bless the name of the Lord!"... you lift up the sinful mother of Jesus, Mary.

Mary is a human, not divine. To place any emphasis on Mary instead of Jesus is a dishonor to the woman that the Lord blessed.

P
PreachParsly

MarcG,

Do you believe that Mary needed to be saved from sin? Or that she needed a Savior?

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

As far as I know, no one in the Bible who didn't need saved called God or Christ "Savior." In other words, there isn't anyone who called upon God or Christ as Savior who didn't need saved. I've never seen where Jesus called God Savior. I could be wrong though...

J
JelloTaster

It's also funny how, if Mary is so blessed, that the writers of the epistles seem to have forgotten to mention her.

S
sermonindex


I question the integrity of your post, and that your very first one. It is circumspectly obvious, even for the most ignorant or uneducated that this is a Protestant, and Evangelical, Biblical Revival site. You would have to know, even in the most casual glance, that the spirit of the forum here is in violent opposition to the Lordship of the Queen of Heaven, and view the Adoration of her as potently Pagan, and Demonic in nature.

So why would you post such an adversarial doctrinal view, as an in your face indictment to these obvious foundations of this forum? I can only guess, but I sense some mischieviousness intent.


We are a sensible and polite people, and want none to perish, as you will in keeping to these Doctrines you have confronted us with, IF you really believe them at all. They are simply, and biblically, doctrines of Demons.


Is this what you wanted to hear?, or did you want to see a buzz and reaction surrounding your words, that gives you a sense of power? In the end, I predict, this will simply enforce and strengthen those, young or old, who love the truth more than their lives. Thank you for this.

B
BeYeDoers

Marc, Rev. 12 is not about Mary. Rev. 4 onward is about things "which are to be hereafter."

I will repeat someone else's question, and add to it:

Was Mary without sin?
Is Mary the Co-Redemptress?
Is Mary the Co-Mediatrix?
Is Mary the Mother of God?
Did she die on a Cross for us?
Should we have an altar for her and present gifts to her, kneel before this altar, and pray to her?

All these things go hand-in-hand with the things you are presenting, and are the heretical teachings of the RCC, which historic Christians have seen as the Great Whore headed by the antichrist on the throne, which is the Papacy.

D
deltadom


Luke 1
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

Mary would not need a Saviour if she was sinless!

E
eternalvalue

The Catholic Church has always and will always exalt and up lift Jesus. Jesus is the center of the Catholic Church. Mary has been and always will subject to the will of the Father. The Catholic Church has never considered and will never say that The Blessed Virgin is divine :-D .

God Bless you all.
James

B
BeYeDoers

Yes or no:

She was without sin, both in conception and all of life.
She is The Mother of God.
She is Co-Redemptress (as seen in Eastern European cathedrals as she is hanging on a cross)
She is Co-Mediatrix between God and Man.
She is bowed to before her own altar, prayed to, and offered gifts in your churches.
Your last Pope verbally and in writing committed his life and spirit to her.

M
MarcG

Jesus is not disconnecting from His mother here. He is in facct incouraging those around him that they too can be called his kinsman if they But do the will of God.
We have too understand that Jesus was fully human like us in all ways except sin.
Do we disconnect from our biological parents?

" I appreciate you giving me life mom but now I am a brother in Christ. You were just a vessel that God used to give me life"

No Jesus obeyed the 4th commandment like only the God-Man could: as an obedient son he honored his earthly mother and His heavenly Father perfectly.
As for the being married in heaven you are correct we will not be married husband and wife because we all will be the spouse of Christ. We will be in total union with him as are the angels.We will be brothers and sisters in Him.
YBIC
Marc

B
BeYeDoers

Marc, please take another look at my questions. I look forward to your answers.

Also, what are the First and Second Commandments?

B
BeYeDoers

Marc and James, just offering you another chance to clarify your position regarding Mary, mother of a human baby she named Jesus, before having numerous other children, and dying having been justified of her sin by her faith in Christ.

S
sermonindex

I just need to say that this is [b]blasphemey[/b] in the worst sense.

Saying that Jesus was the new Adam (which He is) and that Mary was the new Eve (which is no where mentioned in scripture) is to create an incestuous relationship between Jesus and Mary. Even if you say it's only a spiritual marriage... it's still sick.

Then, to further push this thinking, you say that Jesus is the new King of Heaven, and Mary is the Queen... once again putting them in a marriage situation. The reason Prince Charles of England is NOT the King yet is because his mother is still alive.

One of the marks of a false religion is sometimes sexual perversion, and the perversion of marriage. Like Mormonism. Look at all of the sexual abuse that has happened at the hands of the clergy in the Catholic Church. And to make matters worse, look at how the Catholic Church has tried to cover it up! Instead of running these perverts out of town, the RCC just moves them from diocese to diocese... not giving any warning at all to the parishes about this pervert so he can go on abusing a whole new set of children.

And they have also perverted the role of marriage by denying marriage to clergy... then we wonder why all the sex scandels! Paul said get married instead of burning with lust.

So it's no surprise that the Catholic Church has created incest between Jesus and His mother.

It's blasphemey and it's hellish and it's demonic.

And like Tom, I suspect the original post was intended to spark arguments. But I just couldnt let this type of perverted, blasphemous doctrines of demons go by without calling it what it is.

Krispy

R
RevBenjamin

And like Tom, I suspect the original post was intended to spark arguments. But I just couldnt let this type of perverted, blasphemous doctrines of demons go by without calling it what it is.

AMEN Krispy!

Heaven need no Queen, only heathenism does. The RCC is based on paganism of the worst kind, bringing in and defiling the Church, who, by the way, is the Bride of Christ. Just as Eve was taken out of Adam's side...so the Church is bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh.

The RCC have no understanding of our position in Christ and He alone.

Their reenactment of the Old Testament Priesthood is a poor imitation at that, not to mention an incomplete one.

The idea that the Pope walks around in his glorious crown now, is another indication of perverted human flesh prostrating itself to more perverted flesh.


Paul said, The Lord will give me a crown on that day...and not only me but all who love His appearing.

No crowns have been given to date. So we have only a poor imitation here as well.

On that Day will be at the judgement seat of Christ, and no doubt we will be laying those crowns back at His feet...To God be the Glory!

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

L
learn

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/index.html

M
Miccah


learn wrote:
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/index.html

Under the heading "Hymns to the Pope"


"The Catholic Church has a long tradition of singing hymns to the Pope. You can buy recordings of them online. [Note 1]
I thought you might like to see a modern papal hymn for yourself. If you go to the link below, you will see the words of a papal hymn. (It is on a Catholic website and is part of a section honoring the Pope.)"


Singing to the Pope? How anyone cannot see through this garbage is beyond me.

M
MarcG

don't see the link

M
MarcG

BeyeDoers,
Mary the mother of Jesus gave birth to the God-Man. Jesus Christ was truly human in all things except sin. Though the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, Jesus was still the Word and was fully divine.
Could or would the Divine co-exist in a the human person of Mary if she were darkened with the original sin of Adam and Eve?
No.
So how would God prepare a place for Jesus to exist and not co-exist with the stain of sin.

By the foreseen merit of Christ's passion death and resurrection Mary at the time of her conception received a single grace and was created without the stain of original sin.

Did she do anything to deserve this? NO

Is she Divine? NO

She just a humble jewish girl that Jesus chose from all the women in salvation history to be His Mother.
From the purely human perspective, We love our mothers.If we could have created our mothers, would we have created them without the stain of original sin? Would we have created them so the devil would not have any hold over them?
Of course we would.
We couldn't create our mother but Jesus could create His mother and He did create her perfectly without the stain of original original sin.
Jesus saves us from sin because we are fallen.
Jesus preserves Mary from sin by the single grace that I mentioned before.
It is Jesus redemtive work in both cases.

How do we know this from scripture?

When the Angel says to Mary,"Hail FULL of Grace"
notice Mary's posture. She does not fall to the ground in fear and trembling as the sheperds did when the angel announced the nativity to them. She does not turn away as the Israelites did when they were confronted with the face of Moses.
Her posture is like that of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Two people in the Old Testament were created full of grace. Adam and Eve
In the New Testament Jesus created His mother full of grace. Then He took on human form through her.
She had great faith in God. Because of this faith and grace from God she was able to say Yes to the message of the angel and our Lord and Savior was born. The Word became flesh.
I hope this helps to explain.

YBIC
Marc


G
ginnyrose

don't see the link

Try this:

http://www.ewtn.com/jp2/papal3/long_live.htm

ginnyrose

B
BeYeDoers

Marc, all of your doctrine is purely speculative, and it is most definitely heresy. NONE of which you speak is taught in scripture. Of course, you also avoided my questions under the guise of "clarifying your position," which actually makes your response to my questions an obvious affirmative. You know what it would expose if you just answered them directly.

Mary was not born "full of grace". No Scripture says this. Your church made it up. Scripture says she was "accepted" of God, the same language Paul uses of us, and that she "found grace" just like all of us. She needs grace for she born of Adam and therefore with sin. Romans 3 does not end with "except Mary." NOWHERE in scripture is she ever exalted. In fact, she is never even mentioned after Pentecost.

If she was without sin, it would make her equal to Christ (which your church teaches), and make him a LIAR, for he said "there is only one that is good, and that is God." Mary also calls God her "savior". How can she need a saviour if she was without sin?

Mary did not give birth to God, but to flesh. God has no mother, else He would not be God.

Why does Jesus rebuke Mary?

How did God reside in Mary? How does God reside in us? Are you without sin, if indeed the Spirit of God dwell in you? This doesn't make us without sin.

I look forward, to your direct answers to my earlier questions, although your silence on them is deafening.

L
LogoPhilius

Hmmm...

In regards to the original post, I have to shy away from that much abject praise of Mary, or praise of her in that way. The scriptures I've read do not say, "We couldn't create our mother but Jesus could create His mother and He did create her perfectly without the stain of original original sin." or "Her posture is like that of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

Two people in the Old Testament were created full of grace. Adam and Eve"

By the way, I heard the Catholics elected her "co-redeemer with Christ." Who nominated her for that post, and is it still open for, erm... election? Sorry, I couldn't resist the tongue in cheek remark.


I'm all for giving honor to Mary, she did quite well. Especially if you compare her to Zecheriah and Elizabeth, but the things you attribute to her, such as being without original sin, are extra-biblical, meaning they have no basis in the protestant Bible.

But, I would like to say that I do sense among most Christians that we don't have a proper, I won't say reverence, for that may go too far, but appreciation, I suppose, of this incredible woman. We have such a knee jerk response to her that we can barely say anything nice about her without linking it to an anti-Catholic rant. I remember asking my wife what she thought of naming our daughter "Mary," and her response was, "no, it's too Catholic." So we settled for Sophie instead :-D .

I'm not sure if that's too constructive, but although I do share the thought that the original post is a little odd, it would be nice to see the Protestant community (me included) give her some props once in a while.

L
LogoPhilius

I just found two more cents in my pocket, and wanted to add them to the discussion in regards to Mark's:

Could or would the Divine co-exist in a the human person of Mary if she were darkened with the original sin of Adam and Eve?

I can see your reasoning, but it has no scriptural backing. Jesus exists in the human person of Glenn Turner, and I am certainly darkened with the orignal sin of Adam and Eve, bummer though that may be.

S
swsojourner

By the way, I heard the Catholics elected her "co-redeemer with Christ." Who nominated her for that post, and is it still open for, erm... election? Sorry, I couldn't resist the tongue in cheek remark.

Catholics also say that you and I share in the sufferings of Christ. (Colossians 1:24). The prefix co- meaning to work with, as in to cooperate with. A co-op and corporation would be other examples.

God bless,
Karsten

C
Christinyou

Has anyone ever wondered why Jesus was not born female?

Jesus said, "Thou has prepared me a body".

God new the enmity between the seed of the devil and the seed of the woman would be Jesus. He prepared the seed of the woman and seed of Jesus before the foundation of the world. The life of the flesh is in the blood. So if the DNA of the seed of the woman, God had prepared, and the DNA of the God Seed by the Holy Spirit which God furnished also, then it did not depend on Mary at all. It depended on God, that blood had to be perfect with no spot or wrinkle or sin, to make the atonement for sin acceptable to A Perfect Holy and Just God and Father. The Atonement had to be without sin and all man, DNA prepared in Mary, and He had to be all God also, DNA of God supplied by the Father for His only Begotten Son.

There is not mixing of the blood of the fetus from conception, the plecenta keeps the blood of the mother and the baby separated and supplies all the necessary life nutrients and life function in the child by the transfer of these by the special function of the placenta, until birth.

So the body prepared for Jesus in Mary was none of her doing, but the life function of the body already prepared was provided by the woman God chose to; Mary.

She is blessed above all women because God chose her for this function, not because the Child Jesus came from anything she furnished except this function of life already in her. God could not have provided a complete man who was fully God without His choosing a woman for this function. This also gives us a glimpse of The Plan of God in Eph 1:4.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. No transfer of sin through the DNA of Adam and his blood, which is the life of the flesh.

The Precious Blood of Christ pure and Holy and all of God the Father.

This is the same function of our new birth, spiritually in Christ Jesus, being born again of the Incorruptable Seed of God who is Jesus Christ, born again and making us new creatures in Christ. Now separation of our spirit which was our father Satan from our soul-mind and body.

Hebrews 4:12-14 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Now we are as He is in this world, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Blessed be the Mother of Christ, but she was no different than any other woman God would choose to be the mother of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

One more thought; If Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world, then so was the Body made for Him and that is clear in the genealogy of Christ, from Adam and Eve to Joseph and Mary.

It could not have been any other woman but Mary. But she was like Eve, Ester, Elizabeth and many others, all in the line of Christ from the world began, In Christ before the world began. This is the mystery Paul speaks about.

And God did not say, this is our beloved Son in whom we are well pleased.

In Christ: Phillip

J
Julesman

Hi everybody,

I think Marc is right...
I don't know who the Lady with the Crown is in Rev 12, and I don't know if Mary was sinless her whole life nor a perpetual virgin, but Marc's arguments make more sense than anybody's (I've read most of it...)
What's all this accusation of Catholics believing an incest doctrine? No sane Catholic at all believes that Jesus and Mary are meant to be "husband and bride" in the fleshy human sense of the term... of course it's something else!
And it is very true, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary is Divine. Catholics do not believe she is Divine either, that is a straw man argument.
Okay I wouldn't pray to a statue of Mary or give gifts at its feet... but asking Mary to pray for me, I don't know? Isn't God the God of the living and not the God of the dead? Aren't we doing the exact same thing when we ask our friends here on earth to pray for us? Doesn't Jesus give Eternal Life? Doesn't that mean that those who are His (and I should hope His mother is!) are then alive, and very much so, now as we speak?
As for Mary needing a Saviour, well she has One, God. God saves! And if she was perpetually completely sinless then she has God to thank for that as she does thank Him if it is indeed true. If she was sinless then it is thanks to God who is Saviour! (even some Protestants believe other people can be totally sinless, the doctrine of Weslyan Holiness, am I wrong?) Based on the work of Christ, as for anyone who came before Him (i.e. Abraham, David, etc..) and who couldn't have "said the sinner's prayer" and put their faith in His work, understanding it as we do today. How could they? But they trusted in God's grace... and were made more and more holy by Him... and as C.S. Lewis said you don't need to understand the full theology of grace and atonement and redemption (no one does) to be saved any more than when you eat food you do not need to understand how the food is broken down into proteins in your stomach by enzymes, etc, to get nourishment from the food itself. Yes doctrine is absolutely important but it is not the end, nor is it salvation (Satan has perfect theology and knows more than we do). Salvation is about faith in God's grace, trust in His forgiveness. Knowing the Doctrine and how it happened is a wonderful blessing and helps us in our faith.

Yes the Bible says there is one judge, one mediator, one God. It also says, "...know ye not that we will judge the angels!" or in Matthew Christ says to His apostles, "...and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel."
Perhaps there is no contradiction here: Christ is the judge, but He uses us. God uses people for His purpose all the time ;)

I personally don't think the argument over Mary's "divinity"/perpetual virginity/being the Queen of Heaven and all that should be causing division in the Church. Catholics are our brothers as they also worship Christ as Lord (with whom else in the world can we shout together, hail Christ the King!!). "Some of you say, 'I follow Apollos,' still others, 'I follow Peter/Paul,' etc... was Paul crucified for you?"
You could say the same thing today... "Some of you say, 'I follow John Calvin,' still others, 'I follow the Pope.' "
We are all one in Christ... the reason we have so many doctrinal differences is because Christianity has spread to the entire world and has impregnated every culture.
"Do not become involved in vain discussions which only cause division..."

S
sermonindex

I learned something today...

TROLL ALERT!!! DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

Don't know what a troll is?

A troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.


Maybe I posted this in the wrong thread... or maybe I didn't...
:-(

I really did just learn this today though...

B
BeYeDoers

I think Marc is right.

Wow. Really? He has no scripture to support him. So sure, when you discount God's word, it makes sense. Everything is okay if God's word is void.

Brian, this is not irrelevent. Here we have Julesman, who appears he may not be Catholic, and yet he is now getting ensnared by this heresy.

S
sermonindex

By the way, I heard the Catholics elected her "co-redeemer with Christ." Who nominated her for that post, and is it still open for, erm... election? Sorry, I couldn't resist the tongue in cheek remark.

Judging by the media lately... I would have thought that it was [b]Obama[/b] who was "co-redeemer with Christ", and not Mary! :-P

Krispy

E
eternalvalue

Hey Julesman,

Amen well done :-P :-P

God bless

E
eternalvalue

Amen, well said.This is what the Catholic Church teaches. :-P

E
eternalvalue

What is heresy? someone who causes division in the church (i.e. The Reformation)

B
BeYeDoers

ok, now we're making up definitions. If you are not going to have serious conversation about our differences in doctrine, we'll be done here. I have continuously asked questions so you can clarify and defend your positions, and you all refuse to do so. Of course, we all know why this is so.

For anyone reading this thread who has had doubts or stuggles about Catholic doctrine, it should be clear that the Pope and their church traditions stand above the scriptures (although "officially" they claim them to be equal; but you will notice that when the 2 contradict each other, scripture is the one to fall). God said that He inspired the Scriptures, not Rome or the Pope.

S
sermonindex

What is heresy? someone who causes division in the church

I would recommend you read the Bible at some point...

Krispy

E
eternalvalue

I do and I preach it with passion and God's anointing. :-D

Shalom

C
Christinyou

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Calvin!!! Oh no.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
1 Corinthians 11:19

19. For there must be also heresies He had previously spoken of divisions (1Co 11:18.) Now he uses the term heresies, with the view of amplifying the more, as we may infer, too, from the word also, for it is added for the sake of amplification. (προς αὔξησιν.) It is well known in what sense the ancients used those two terms, 1 and what distinction they made between Heretics and Schismatics. 2 Heresy they made to consist in disagreement as to doctrine, and schism, on the contrary, in alienation of affection, as when any one withdrew from the Church from envy, or from dislike of the pastors, or from ill nature. It is true, that the Church cannot but be torn asunder by false doctrine, and thus heresy is the root and origin of schism, and it is also true that envy or pride is the mother of almost all heresies, but at the same time it is of advantage to distinguish in this way between these two terms.

But let us see in what sense Paul employs them. I have already expressed my disapprobation of those who explain heresy as meaning the setting up of a separate table, inasmuch as the rich did not partake of their Supper along with the poor; for he had it in view to point out something more hateful. But without mentioning the opinions of others, I take schism and heresy here in the way of less and greater. Schisms, then, are either secret grudges — when we do not see that agreement which ought to subsist among the pious — when inclinations at variance with each other are at work — when every one is mightily pleased with his own way, and finds fault with everything that is done by others. Heresies are when the evil proceeds to such a pitch that open hostility is discovered, and persons deliberately divide themselves into opposite parties. Hence, in order that believers might not feel discouraged on seeing the Corinthians torn with divisions, the Apostle turns round this occasion of offense in an opposite direction, intimating that the Lord does rather by such trials make proof of his people's constancy. A lovely consolation! "So far, says he, should we be from being troubled, or cast down, when we do not see complete unity in the Church, but on the contrary some threatenings of separation from want of proper agreement, that even if sects should start up, 3 we ought to remain firm and constant. For in this way hypocrites are detected — in this way, on the other hand, the sincerity of believers is tried. For as this gives occasion for discovering the fickleness of those who were not rooted in the Lord's Word, and the wickedness of those who had assumed the appearance of good men, so the good afford a more signal manifestation of their constancy and sincerity."

But observe what Paul says — there must be, for he intimates by this expression, that this state of matters does not happen by chance, but by the sure providence of God, because he has it in view to try his people, as gold in the furnace, and if it is agreeable to the mind of God, it is, consequently, expedient. At the same time, however, we must not enter into thorny disputes, or rather into labyrinths as to a fatal necessity. We know that there never will be a time when there will not be many reprobates. We know that they are governed by the spirit of Satan, and are effectually drawn away to what is evil. We know that Satan, in his activity, leaves no stone unturned with the view of breaking up the unity of the Church. From this — not from fate — comes that necessity of which Paul makes mention. 4 We know, also, that the Lord, by his admirable wisdom, turns Satan's deadly machinations so as to promote the salvation of believers. 5 Hence comes that design of which he speaks — that the good may shine forth more conspicuously; for we ought not to ascribe this advantage to heresies, which, being evil, can produce nothing but what is evil, but to God, who, by his infinite goodness, changes the nature of things, so that those things are salutary to the elect, which Satan had contrived for their ruin. As to Chrysostom's contending that the particle that (ἴνα) denotes not the cause, but the event, it is of no great moment. For the cause is the secret counsel of God, 6 by which things that are evil are overruled in such a manner, as to have a good issue. We know, in fine, that the wicked are impelled by Satan in such a manner, that they both act and are acted upon with the consent of their wills. 7 Hence they are without excuse.

Pretty good for someone named Calvin. :-x

In Christ: Phillip

B
BeYeDoers

In response to "why don't try and read your Bible, eternalvalue said,

I do

Then you should know all these things propagated here are not found at all, and would in fact be condemned as idolatry (which Rome has removed from the Ten Commandments) and witchcraft. Of course Rome [i]does[/] know this, which is why they have invented the doctrines of Sacred Tradition and Papal Infallability and banned the people from owning Bibles and murdered Bible translators and distributors for centuries.

E
eternalvalue

The Church has never "removed" the Ten Commandments. The Comandments say that we are not to bear false witness against our neighbors, which is what happens on this forum, because protestants have never seriously studied real catholic teachings, only anti-catholic lies. :-P

God bless you deeply.

C
crsschk

The Comandments say that we are not to bear false witness against our neighbors, which is what happens on this forum, because protestants have never seriously studied real catholic teachings, only anti-catholic lies.

And is that which you have just now done with your statement, borne false witness.

P
PaulWest

on this forum...protestants have never seriously studied real catholic teachings, only anti-catholic lies.

Not true at all. I grew up RCC, confirmed, studied the cathechims, sacraments. I was even an altar boy for a period, and studied music with the parish organist. I've also dialogued and friendly-debated priests and eucharistic ministers during my tenure as a chaplain's assistant in the Texas Army National Guard. What you've said here about ignorance in the forum is a grave generalization, an unfair assumption, and I for one will be more than happy to discuss Mariology with you or anyone else here in a civilized, educated manner.

Brother Paul

S
swsojourner

The Comandments say that we are not to bear false witness against our neighbors, which is what happens on this forum, because protestants have never seriously studied real catholic teachings, only anti-catholic lies.

"And is that which you have just now done with your statement, borne false witness."

hehehe..that is pretty much true.btw..maybe a blanket statement. Just consider the post b4, that Catholics "invented" sacred tradition..I guess that is something like the One, Holy, Catholic, and APOSTOLIC church , you know, that is mentioned in the Apostles' and Nicene Creed. :)
Or I guess maybe Saint Paul invented sacred tradition in 2 Thessalonions 2:15.

That kind of stuff is just thrown out there all time. To be fair, the same happens with Calvinism here too.

With Catholicism, real issues are very very seldom discussed. The appeal is almost always to the knee-jerk reaction, almost every time. It is quite amazing. (and almost converted me to Catholicism)

Karsten

The Orthodox Church is evangelical, but not Protestant. It is orthodox, but not Jewish. It is catholic, but not Roman. It isn't non-denominational - it is pre-denominational. It has believed, taught, preserved, defended and died for the Faith of the Apostles since the Day of Pentecost 2000 years ago.

R
rbanks

If we are going to truly honor and respect Mary the mother of Jesus then we need to hear and obey her words in –

John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

We must realize from scripture that the gospel that leads to salvation is centered in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is his death, burial, and resurrection and in whom our salvation is dependent upon and no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.

The bible says that Mary was blessed among women to be the one chosen to give birth to the Son of God, but just as John the Baptist said, the Christ must increase and we must decrease. The bible says that Jesus Christ is the only foundation laid for our salvation.

Many people have gone into error when they take a few scriptures and then try to build their own organization and beliefs around their added teachings and it becomes heresy.

People have taken characters out of the bible like angels, Mary the mother of Jesus, and have built new doctrines that are extra biblical. Thy have forsaken the foundation and true teachings of Christ and have put their trust in false teachings bringing damnation to their soul.

Once a person is deceived into believing something extra biblical only the mercy of God can open their eyes to the truth, because they will not let the bible be their safeguard any more. They are the blind leading the blind. They do not fear that their soul could be lost in departing from the Word because they go by their feelings instead of the Word.

Hell will be full of People, who went by their feelings and what they wanted to believe instead of the only infallible, unchanging, incorruptible, and everlasting Word of the living God. There will be multitudes in Hell who added to or toke away from the Word of God. We are not to add Jesus to anything, but we are to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior only subtracting everything else away from Him. It is not Jesus and the Law. It is not Jesus and any other religion. It is not Jesus plus Mary. It is not Jesus plus the Pope. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

God will condemn the soul who tries to climb up another way and shows despite to His one and only Son and His sacrifice for our sins.

E
eternalvalue

I know I have been defending the Catholic Church on this forum, yet I have returned to the Protestant Church. I seem to waver between defending and rejecting the teachings of the Catholic Church. Please pray for me that God will settle my heart and that I get back to my spiritual roots.

shalom

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rbanks

Hi Eternalvalue,

From one brother to another, my prayer is that we will earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

Here is scripture that has spoken deeply to me!

Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

E
eternalvalue

Thank you so much rbanks. God has put in my heart that we as a church need to get back to the Cross and drop all this spiritual "fuff" (i.e. Your best life now).

God bles :-P

C
crsschk

I know I have been defending the Catholic Church on this forum, yet I have returned to the Protestant Church. I seem to waver between defending and rejecting the teachings of the Catholic Church. Please pray for me that God will settle my heart and that I get back to my spiritual roots.

That's a refreshing piece of honesty brother. Set your sights on being a Bible believing Christian and the rest will sort it's self out eventually.

[i]spiritual roots[/i]

Those are words that drive and under-gird everything brother. Adding my prayers.

P
PaulWest

Set your sights on being a Bible believing Christian and the rest will sort it's self out eventually.

Mike is right - set your sights on becoming a Bible-based believer and all other things will be sorted out on their own. The Russians have a saying: "Peremeleyetsya, muka budyet", or roughly translated, "Grind the wheat and flour will come out". Allow yourself, your ideas, your dogma, your doctrinal surmizings to humbly come under the grinding truth of the Bible-stone, and you'll get nothing but the pure flour of life coming out the other end. The chaff of erroneous doctrine is left behind during this process, and only that which is the good manna for our spiritual bodies will survive.

B
BeYeDoers

will pray. take courage that the Bible is absolutely the only authoritative source God has given for doctrine; "if it's not found in the Book, don't believe it" (quoting AW Tozer)

G
ginnyrose

that I get back to my spiritual roots.

God bless you brother. If this is the desire of your heart, God will fill it.

This morning in my devotional I was reading Rev. 2 and there Jesus tells the Ephesian church that they have left their 'first love' and unless they repent He will remove their candlestick out of its place. I got to thinking: you know what? it is [i]easy[/i] to lose your first love. Then I wondered - how does one regain it? So I again had to ask the LORD to assist me. And brother, you never will become too old to ask this from the LORD Jesus. The Enemy will do [i]anything[/i] to distract you from this. Jesus stands ready to help you - he will not asist you unless you ask for it. Simple, isn't it?

Hope this helps...
Blessings,
ginnyrose

G
growingholly

i'm so glad and grateful for your heart!!!

check out galatians chapter 1; hopefully that will help you.

love to you!

be encouraged also, i am really excited that you are wrestling with this; i belive it is due to the drawing of God on your life. praise be to the Most High God!!!

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