A look at Perseverance of the Saints

Perseverance of the Saints
by Michael R. Finney and Rolaant I. McKeneic

Perseverance of the Saints states that all who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
Scriptural Support:
1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.

Perseverance of the Saints first needs to be properly understood. This doctrine does not mean that all those who merely appear to have faith (i.e., said a certain prayer, walked down the church isle, joined a church, were baptized, etc.) will be kept by God and will therefore persevere to the end. There are many people who profess to be believers but then later fall away. Instead, Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who have a genuine faith in Christ will be kept by God forever and will persevere to the end. There are many professing Christians who trust in their own works, goodness, merits for their salvation. These people are trusting in their own "righteousness, instead of Jesus' blood, and do not have true faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, later on they may get discouraged and decide to leave the faith and no longer be a Christian. This does not prove that they were saved and then lost their salvation, but simply that they deserted the Christian religion because they had only a said faith rather than a genuine one. The Apostle John clearly described such people in 1 John 2:19. Speaking of some who had renounced the Christian religion and had become anti-Christ, he said, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." It is clear from this passage that those who profess faith in Christ and appear to be true believers, and yet later fall away, were never really a part of God's people in the first place.

Another important point that must be made is that the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints in no way permits believers to live a lazy and rebellious Christian life. Some opponents to this doctrine say that it teaches a license to sin with an open door to heaven. This is grossly untrue, and a complete distortion of what Perseverance of the Saints actually teaches. Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Since the Christian is born again by the Holy Spirit, he loves Jesus and so naturally desires to keep His commandments. The change of heart that the Holy Spirit makes in regeneration, as well as the indwelling presence of the Spirit in the believer, ensures that the believer will continue to love Christ. Of course, the amount of love for Christ varies with the individual. A more mature Christian no doubt has a deeper love for Christ than a "baby Christian." Nevertheless, all of God's children have a love for their Savior. Thus, true believers strive each and every day to please Him. They strive each and every day to keep His commandments. This is not done in order to obtain salvation, or even to maintain salvation, because that would turn salvation by grace into salvation by works. Rather, Christians keep His commandments out of love and gratitude for the One who shed His precious blood for their redemption. Therefore, those who believe in Perseverance of the Saints do not say that Christians can live like any way they want and still expect to get into heaven. They say, "Do you really love Christ? Then keep His commandments!" Even though believers have a great love for the Lord, and strive to obey and please Him, human imperfection, the sinful flesh, causes a fall into sin from time to time. No one on earth is sinless. But God will keep His saints. He will see to it that all those He elected, died for, and regenerated will be glorified.

Here are several Scriptural passages that teach the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. Jesus said in John 6:39-40, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Here we are told that the Father's will for the Son is that the Son lose none of those that were chosen and given to Him. So in order for an elect person to be lost, the Son would either have to disobey the Father's will, or be impotent in His power to prevent the loss of those given to Him by the Father! It would be a sin for the Son to disobey the Father's will; and if Jesus lacks the power to keep those whom the Father had given to Him, then perhaps He is also unable to make good the many other promises He made to believers. So the only way a believer could be lost is for the Son of God to sin or be powerless to keep them. Needless to say, that will never happen. In John 10:27-29 Jesus says about the elect sheep in verse 27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;". Notice that it is the nature of sheep to follow the Divine Shepherd. If anyone fails to follow the Shepherd, that person was never really a sheep. In the verses 28-29 He continues, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." It is sometimes argued that although nothing can take a believer out of the Father's hand, a person might take himself out of the Father's hand. However, the verse does not say that the believer is holding tightly to the Father's hand. It says that the Father is holding tightly to the believer. To illustrate, whenever an earthy father is holding his child's hand while crossing a busy highway, he holds tightly onto the child's hand. Even if the child releases his grip the father does not release his. He does not leave the safety of the child up to the child. He does not merely hold out a stick and tell the child to hold on to the other end of it and just leave it up to the child's decision as to whether to let go and wander into traffic or not. In the same way, God is a good Father, and He holds us tightly in His hand. We will never be able to get loose from His grip and perish because He promises that we "will never perish". How could He make that promise if it were possible for us to get loose from His grip and perish? It is not possible. In John 17:24 Jesus said, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." It is Christ's desire for the ones whom God has given Him to be with Him and behold His glory. Christ is the sovereign God. He will get what He desires. Romans 8:35-39 says:
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Sometimes it is argued that Satan may be successful in separating the believer from God and His love. However, Satan is a created thing, and the promise is that no created thing will be successful in separating us. If Satan could separate a believer from God and cause him to be unsaved, then that would make Satan more powerful than God!

It is also argued from time to time that even though the believer is safe from adversaries outside of himself, he is not safe from destroying himself. However, it needs to be remembered that even the believer himself is a created thing, and the promise is that no created thing will ever separate us from God. Philippians 1:6 says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." God is not a God who fails to complete the tasks He begins. He is never defeated in anything He sets out to do. If He has really begun a good work in an individual, He will be successful in completing it. We can be confident of that. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says, "[Jesus Christ] will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass." Here the Apostle Paul assures believers that God will preserve them in a blameless (justified) state. 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, "But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."

Since it is God's will that the Son lose none of those that were given to Him, the believer can be sure that He will successfully guard him from the attempts of Satan to destroy him and separate him from God. 2 Timothy 1:12 says, "For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."

Sometimes people say that God would definitely like to make our ultimate salvation a certainty but that He is not able to because that would interfere with our so-called free will. But the Bible teaches that He is able. Jude 24-25 reaffirms this when it says, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." This passage does not teach that God is able to keep us from stumbling and stand blameless before Him if we continue to do our part, for then, salvation would be dependent on our own ability, our own efforts. No, it is God who keeps the believer from stumbling; it is God who makes him to stand before Him justified.

There are several doctrines which prove Perseverance of the Saints. One of them is Predestination. The Bible teaches that God predestines certain people to be saved. Ephesians 1:5 says that "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will " To be adopted as a son is to be saved. God also predestines us to be conformed to the image of Christ. Now, everyone whom God predestines to be saved and conformed to Christ's image will eventually be glorified in heaven. Romans 8:30 says that "these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Here we see that predestination is an unbroken golden chain. Paul says that the ones who get predestined are the ones who get called. The ones who get called are the ones who get justified. The ones who get justified are the ones who get glorified. If you get the first part of salvation you get it all. It is an unbreakable chain. All those who get the first part of salvation get the last. All those whom God predestined to be saved will be glorified in the end. And how could it be otherwise? How could the Sovereign God predestine a thing to occur and it not occur? It is impossible!

Another doctrine that proves Perseverance of the Saints is Salvation by Grace. In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Notice here that salvation is "the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Some people believe that a believer can lose his salvation. They believe that that the only reason some people are able to keep their salvation and others fail to do so is because some are simply able to endure. Perhaps one person has more strength than another, or maybe he does not lose his determination, or perhaps he has some innate ability to remain in Christ that others do not have. One of the problems with this, however, is that this leaves room for boasting. Let's say Christ did die for both men, and the Spirit did regenerate both of them, but one went to heaven while the other did not. Why? Because he had the strength to endure. So when he gets to heaven, he will have a lot to boast about. He could boast about his ability to persevere, or for even being sensible enough to make the right choice in accepting Christ as his Savior.

According to Paul's understanding, however, there is no room for boasting at all. God chose us before the foundation of the world, not because of anything we did. Jesus Christ died on the cross, and His blood covered all our sins. Then the Spirit brought us out of our spiritual death and into life; and God is holding us in His hand and guarding us from the evil one. He is keeping us forever. Salvation is totally of God and His grace. Therefore, we have nothing to boast about, and we will give God all the praise and glory. The Biblical view gives God all the glory for his salvation. Those who hold to the opposing view is logically compelled to accept a part of the glory for himself. Surely any understanding of salvation which leaves room for man to boast and divides the glory for salvation between God and the sinner cannot be the biblical understanding of salvation.
Another thing which proves that the believer is eternally secure, is the fact that scripture says that our life is eternal. Consider John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." If there is any possibility that some who believe in Him will at some future time lose their salvation, then how could Christ have made this promise? He said they will have eternal life. If someone is promised eternal life but loses it after twenty years, did he have eternal life? No. That person only had 20-year life. Christ promises that all believers will have eternal life. For the Son of God to make such a promise, He must know that it will come to pass. If the Son of God makes a promise like that, He will do everything to make sure it occurs, including putting us in the Father's hand. And the Father is greater than all, so no one can snatch us out of His hand.

Another thing which proves the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, is that when Christ died on the cross, He purchased the church. Acts 20:28 says, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Jesus purchased those people for whom He died. The church is Jesus Christ's possession. We are His. How then can we ever belong to another? How then can we ever lose our salvation and not belong to Christ anymore? Who would ever succeed in taking something away from the Creator of heaven and earth unless that person was greater than God? No, believers are securely in God's hand, and we know that God does not plan for any believer to be lost.

Unfortunately, many quote Hebrews 6:4-6 and say that this passage disproves the doctrine of the believer's eternal security. The passage says:
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
In order to have a proper understanding of the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6, it is necessary to study the context. In Hebrews 5:10, the Lord Jesus is referred to as "a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek." Continuing on in verses 11-14 it says, "Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."
Then comes the exhortation of the opening verse of the sixth chapter, in which the writer calls upon his Hebrew brethren, who have not yet received Christ although they have come to a knowledge of Him, to declare themselves openly for Christ. The Old Testament was their elementary school, their kindergarten, the place of first things or principles. The time had now come for them to graduate. The law was their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). He writes now to them saying, "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity [the same Greek word as is in the proceeding verse is translated "full age"], not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:1-2) All these are Old Testament doctrines. The apostle is exhorting the Hebrews to move forward to Christ, to whom all these doctrines pointed. "And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened [as the Hebrews had been] and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of [literally, companions, those who go along with] the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God [this had come to them through the ages by the prophets] and the powers of the age to come [these were the miracles they had witnessed], and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:3-6)

The Hebrew recipients of this letter were probably convicted of the truth of the gospel message without actually fully accepting it. So in that case they would not be genuine believers. The writer of Hebrew's warning in this passage is similar to that of Hebrews 4:11. Hypocrites among the recipients of the gospel have heard the truth repeatedly without an appropriate response. If they proceeded in their plans to return to Judaism, it would be "impossible" for them to genuinely repent since their hearts would have become hardened. There is nothing in this passage which speaks of a born-again person losing his salvation. This passage teaches there is no salvation for anyone unless they are found under the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this passage was teaching that a true believer could loose his salvation, then it also would be teaching that once someone has been saved, then lost, he cannot be re-saved. This would counter the idea some Christians hold that one could fall away, and repent later and return to Christ to be saved. Those who "fall away" are like the people the apostle John spoke about in 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

One can come to the presence of God in apparent repentance without ever having a genuine fellowship with Him. (Luke 8:13, 13:27) Even Pharaoh repented for a season. But his returning to rebellion against God showed that his repentance was not genuine. (Exodus 9:27, 10:16-17) But of those who truly come to Christ in faith and are born again, the Apostle Peter says:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

"After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you." (1 Peter 5:10)
We truly are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, for it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. We have no reason to boast about anything. Not even for making a decision for Christ. We serve a gracious and merciful God who chose us before the foundation of the world; who shed His precious blood which covered our sins; who changed our hearts so that we would willingly serve Him for all of eternity; who gave us the faith we need; and who holds us in His hand now and forever. To Him be all glory and praise forever and ever!

repentance, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment are [only] Old Testament doctrines?!? I must have the wrong Bible.

repentance, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment are [only] Old Testament doctrines?!? I must have the wrong Bible.

The word "only" is not in the article I posted nor is it implied that they are exclusively Old Testament doctrines. Perhaps your Bible is fine and it is the wrong article you have. :-)

Some things to consider about a person who may or may not be saved:

Let’s say a person who believes they have accepted the Lord as their savior and they believe they are saved is told “once saved always saved” or that they have eternal security and they can never loose their salvation. Let’s say this person holds to this and is so convince of this that it becomes embedded in their heart and they believe in “once saved always saved” even more so than the warnings of Jesus and his word about perseverance unto the end. Let’s suppose they don’t persevere like the bible says and when they die they go to hell thinking they were saved, and so the people who hold to this doctrine just say well they wasn’t really saved in the begin with. This is the reason Jesus never said “once saved always saved” because He was always teaching us not to be deceived and would not advocate any doctrine of man that could cause a person to be deceived because Jesus does not want us who believe in Him to be deceived.

Let’s say another person who believes they have accepted the Lord as their savior and they believe they are saved but are told what the bible says, that they are to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure for if they do these things they shall never fall. They are also told that Jesus will never leave them neither forsake them as they follow Him. They are told to put their trust in Him because in Him is eternal security and that He will never let anyone take them away from Him. He will never change His mind or heart about their eternal future with Him. He will give them all the grace they need to overcome everything in this life because His Love toward them is everlasting, only they are to persevere with their faith in Him. It is not by works but it is by grace through faith. Now let’s suppose they don’t continue to persevere and they die and go to hell because they were not saved in the beginning but they were not deceived into thinking that they were saved when they were not. I believe the percentage of people who are told “once saved always saved” that are not bearing the fruit of a Christian is more than we want to think about because it is a dangerous thing to believe in. It’s not having faith in this doctrine that saves a person anyway, it is only are faith in Christ who saves us.

If a person was not truly saved in the beginning but was told to make their calling and election sure, they are not being deceived, but while they are trying to do this, if they come up short, instead of believing in “once saved always saved” they realized that they may not be truly saved and humble themselves before the Lord and ask for mercy and repent and believe to be truly saved.

If a person is truly saved in the beginning he will have a fear of God to keep his commandments and will persevere unto the end because He is told to make His calling and election sure and he will have great joy because of the inner witness. He knows he is born of God and has an advocate to the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ who will cleanse Him from all sin by his precious blood as he walks in the Light.

We should maintain that a person is not saved by their righteousness or any amount of good works but only by grace through faith in the finish work of Jesus Christ. A person who is truly saved will have the witness of the Spirit, a fear of God, a love to keep his commands, and the grace to persevere to the end.

Finally a truly saved person will rest in the assurance of his salvation, but will take heed to the warnings in scripture and will be aware that He is to keep himself in the Love of God looking for the mercy of His Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life by building up himself on his most holy faith by continually praying in the Holy Spirit (Jude 20-21).

Thanks for responding brother.

We should maintain that a person is not saved by their righteousness or any amount of good works but only by grace through faith in the finish work of Jesus Christ.

...He is to keep himself in the Love of God ...

I am not attempting to prove you right or wrong...just gain some understanding. Theses statements seem to be contradictory. If it is up to me to "keep myself" does it not give me something to boast about? In Heaven I would know I was there because "I kept myself".

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

I cannot do anything to get saved…but I can do something to get unsaved?

First I must state again for the record I have not pitched a tent in either camp as of yet, although I was raised with the teaching that salvation can be lost.

One thing is that the historic doctrine of perseverance of the saints is far different from many of the perverted and twisted teachings of modern day once saved always saved.

I think it would be better to call it “If saved…always saved”

I see how this doctrine could be damaging if taught and or understood poorly but if it is true than it needs to be taught rightly so as to be understood correctly.

I am in search of the truth as God reveals it in scripture. I simply posted the article to get some dialog. Thanks for your time rbanks.

I have never understood how a person thinks they can loose their salvation, when it is not theirs to begin with. If I am saved by Grace, and can loose it, then Grace is not strong enough to keep me. If I am saved, it is impossible for me to loose it, for if I loose it I cannot come back into Grace, for I crucify again the Son of God and put Him to open shame. That is what Hebrews 6 is all about. If you or I are saved and have tasted of the things of Heb 6, it is impossible to loose it or I am putting Christ to open shame, and His sacrifice was not good enough to keep those that are born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.. If I can loose it, then we are calling God and abortionist. We are born of God and we cannot loose that birthright. To be truly a son of God we must have a Father. How can we loose that which is not of our own choosing, my mother and father did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born, that was in the hands of God, just like my being born again was not in my hands, for God did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be "born again". He did by His own will and by Grace through Faith, lest Grace is dependent on whether I agree with God to be "born again".

It is a much better Gospel to depend on if we are seated in the final Gospel of Paul which Jesus Christ Gave him personally, than to be seated in a salvation gospel that can be lost. Where are we seated already?

It depends on God and has always depended on God, He will never change just so men can loose their own salvation, which is a true statement, the ones that think they can loose their salvation are dependent on self and Not the Unchangeable God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that He would birth His own Son in the believer whom He has given the Faith to even believe in the first place, by the Cross of Christ and then allow men to loose it. It does not depend on men, It only depends on God. His Word, which is Christ, will not return void.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

He came to set the captives free. John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In Christ: Phillip

tjservant wrote:

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

I cannot do anything to get saved…but I can do something to get unsaved?

I think it would be better to call it “If saved…always saved”

Many may recieve eternal life, then go into false doctrines(TBN crowd) and take on "another gosple"

Ro 5:17 For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ:)
Eph 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
Eph 3:7 of which I am become minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me, according to the working of his power.
Eph 4:7 But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ.

Not only these gifts and grace, but gifts, including; wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. It is all of God. He was made these thing for us, to us and in us.

We have as Spirit that is Incorruptable, the Spirit of Christ is now our Spirit. We have a soul where the Holy Spirit works to make our minds understand this great mystery of Christ in you the hope of Glory. I don't need teaching in my spirit, that is perfect before God because of Jesus Christs' Spirit birthed in us. Where I can turn away from God is in my soul, That is where I need to work to become conformed to Spirit of Christ that is already birthed in me. The soul-mind is where I learn to love Jesus Christ and the Father as they loved eachother and are One with each other. Where do we fall in love, not in spirit but in sou-mind, that is where we make or break our gift of salvation which we cannot loose. The mind must be kept on Him and He will keep us in perfect peace. We must learn the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit to be conformed to His image, and we do have the Mind of Christ and need to renew our minds-soul to His mind, then we will be perfect even as He is perfect, which the Father tells us to do. Only One thing left to become perfect, the fleshly body on resurrection morning we will be completely conformed to the image and body of Christ.

In Christ: PHillip

Christinyou wrote:
I have never understood how a person thinks they can loose their salvation, when it is not theirs to begin with.

Why wouldn't you claim the relationship with Christ(eternal life) which you received?

If I am saved by Grace, and can loose it, then Grace is not strong enough to keep me.

If I am saved, it is impossible for me to loose it, for if I loose it I cannot come back into Grace, for I crucify again the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

If you actually read the Scriptures with out conforming them to your own purpose, you would interpret them correctly.

Those who fall away bears thorns and briars is worthless, and is near unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
They can not bear good fruit because they are not abiding in Christ(Hebrews 6:8).
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in Christ(John 15:4)

That is what Hebrews 6 is all about

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you.

What better things are they persuaded of?
That they will not fall away.

Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Hebrews 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise

If you or I are saved and have tasted of the things of Heb 6, it is impossible to loose it

or I am putting Christ to open shame, and His sacrifice was not good enough to keep those that are born again by the Incorruptible Seed of God, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.

If I can loose it, they we are calling God and abortionist

We are born of God and we cannot loose that birthright.

To be truly a son of God we must have a Father. How can we loose that which is not of our own choosing, my mother and father did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born

that was in the hands of God, just like my being born again was not in my hands, for God did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born again;. He did by His own will and by Grace through Faith, lest Grace is dependent on whether I agree with God to be "born again".

It is a much better Gospel to depend on if we are seated in the final Gospel of Paul which Jesus Christ Gave him personally, than to be seated in a salvation gospel that can be lost.

It depends on God and has always depended on God, He will never change just so men can loose their own salvation, which is a true statement, the ones that think they can loose their salvation are dependent on self and Not the Unchangeable God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

We depend on Christ who forgave us and continues to make intercession for us with our failures.

We depend on Christ to teach us to walk in the spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of our flesh.

We depend on Christ & His Spirit to obey the spirit of the law, which is love.

that He would birth His own Son in the believer

whom He has given the Faith to even believe in the first place.

It does not depend on men, It only depends on God.

wisevirgin wrote:
Both repentance and faith are the gift of God.

You make God a tyrant.

I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?

Galatians 3:21-28 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, (((((that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.))))) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, (((((that we might be justified by faith.))))) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Baptized into Christ:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Incorruptible Seed, which is the Word (logos) of God.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:13-14 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who gave us rebirth? "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, (((but of God.")))

In Christ: Phillip

I'm not sure if you were answering my question, but none of these verses say that faith is given.

Quote:

"""I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?"""

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father. I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8.

Unless the Father gives the power of Grace to the believer, his faith can have no meaning in regards to salvation. So "faith and grace" both are given by the Father and it is not of ourselves.

So the faith that is now mine is the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

In Eph. 2, salvation is the gift, not faith.

John 6 says nothing about faith...being with Christ is no doubt God's work, but this doesn't say faith itself is given by God (as the Calvinists teach as Irresistible Grace)

Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father. I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8

You assuming is the problem. You mix all the terms up and then derive the doctrine from your assumptions. But nothing so far has said the faith through which saving grace is imparted is a gift (and irresistible at that). Salvation is a gift by the grace of God, and God's word coming in the power of the Holy Ghost is the power unto salvation, via hearing leading to believing.

Lets do it once more.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Therefore if one cannot come to Jesus unless the Father gives the believer unto Him. This must take salvation to come to Him, and that salvation is given by Grace through Faith, how could grace or faith be given unless it is a free Gift. So it is not grace or faith of ourselves, it is the Gift of God, Salvation by Grace through Faith.

I died to sin on the Cross with Jesus Christ, He was perfect and no sin in Him, it was my sin that He drank of the cup in the garden, every nail, every drop of blood, every thorn in his head, was my sin being justified to bring son's to the Glory of the Fathers House and being crucified with Him I died to sin, that is how we present every man that is in Christ Perfect, that is how the Father sees me now, IN Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

If I died and yet I live and am writing this post, How do I live if I am dead with Christ on the Cross?

It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

That life that I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God, which is His and the Fathers Gift by Jesus Christ Himself being born again in me of Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

The assumption is not putting words to together, but rightly dividing the word of God. The assumption is fact, the whole of Salvation is of God or faith, grace, righteousness, wisdom, redemption and full sanctification by the Faith the Son of God has given us, that we are son's of God also, by His birthing in us and by Him being God, that puts the nature of God in us. Now are we son's of God. By the birthing we are heirs of God in Christ Jesus and that includes heirs to His Faith, to His Grace, to His Father's House, wise in all redemption and sanctification and justification. Joint heirs with Jesus Christ. Because as He is so are we in this world. Is Jesus Christ Faith, is He Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, and most of all is it His Father and Him, Jesus Christ that give Grace and Faith and make their abode with us.

This is not Calvinism or and assumption, but assuming that the world of God is true.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

I'm not being presumptuous, but asking: Where does scripture teach that the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, imparted after regeneration?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8. And that not of yourselves; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

Paul is not saying that anything else but the state of affairs of us having been saved through faith by grace is not anything to be earned so as to take credit, it is a "doron"(Greek), an offering of God to all man kind.
You can not make it say any thing else from correctly interpreting it.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Be it faith or Grace, none can come to Jesus unless it is given by His Father.

Fact is, the father chooses to give His Son those whom acknowledge the truth and acts upon it.
John 6:45b Every one who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me.

I assume this is the whole of Eph 2: 8. Unless the Father gives the power of Grace to the believer, his faith can have no meaning in regards to salvation.

So "faith and grace" both are given by the Father and it is not of ourselves. So the faith that is now mine is the Faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the

Lets do it once more.

The assumption is not putting words to together, but rightly dividing the word of God.

This is not Calvinism or and assumption, but assuming that the world of God is true. In Christ:

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Self explanatory.

Quote:

"""The correct interpretation is "faith IN christ". Unless it is faith exactly like that of Christ(if God has faith in the first place), but still our own faith, because no one can possibly have another's faith"""

This "in Christ" Is not the correct interpretation either. There is no preposition at all, so the correct interpretation is "Faith Christ".

"because no one can possibly have another's faith". That is like saying, no one can have another person's salvation, that Person being Christ. My faith and salvation is not of myself, it is the gift of God the Father who does nothing arbitrarily in making new creatures for His own house, son's of God.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
Ephesians 2:8

8. For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation.

--------------

My Faith is nothing and must be infused with the Faith of Christ unto salvation, then the statement, "by Grace through Faith" is true in the believer coming to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, also makes the statement, "Not of yourselves" the means of salvation being of God and God alone, that no man can boast.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

The correct interpretation is "faith IN christ". Unless it is faith exactly like that of Christ(if God has faith in the first place), but still our own faith, because no one can possibly have another's faith

This "in Christ" Is not the correct interpretation either. There is no preposition at all, so the correct interpretation is "Faith Christ".

Fact is that we have faith [b]in[/b] HIM and what HE said and did.

is like saying, no one can have another person's salvation. My faith and salvation is not of myself,

How is salvation totaly not of you?

[b]John 14:15[/b] [color=990000]If you love me, keep my commandments. [/color]
Are you to keep His commandments?
are you to love Hime?

[b]Rom 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of [b]obedience unto righteousness[/b]?[/color]
Are you to decide who will be you master?

[b]Luk 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
Are you to do that which is commanded you?

Thyere is so much of you in salvation that you ignore onlr to keep your theology intact.

God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace.

Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.

You have not yet explained how God is not responsible for the faithlessness & unrepentance of the world [b]IF[/b] they are gifts which are only arbitrarily given to the lucky ones.

Logic wrote:

tjservant wrote:

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

Obediance is nothing to boast about.
[b]Luk 17:7[/b] [color=990000]But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to eat?
[b]:8[/b] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready that I may eat, and gird yourself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward you shall eat and drink?
[b]:9[/b] Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
[b]:10[/b] So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

So, are you saying that salvation is dependant upon ones continued actions of obedience?

tjservant wrote:

So, are you saying that salvation is dependant upon ones continued actions of obedience?

Wouldn't Jesus say that He never knew you, because you work lawlessness(disobediance)? Matthew 7:23

I'm not talking about salvation by works(of the law), which Paul preached against.

Phillip, you repeating yourself makes it no more true the second time than it was the first. I'm not arguing that we contribute to our salvation and that it is not entirely the grace of God. I'm arguing about the origin of faith and where we get it. None of these verses, which you have now posted twice, say that God forcefeeds us the faith through which we are saved, and that we have to choice in the matter.

**edit**
Added original question for context

So, are you saying that salvation is dependent upon ones continued actions of obedience?

The only action that you must do is abide in Christ, yes.

This sounds as if the believer is responsible for his own salvation to some degree.

This type of maintenance salvation seems to be dependent upon man's ability. This is why I believe the verses you quoted from Luke 17 are clear in that there is no reason to boast because the price was paid in full on the cross and we are not adding, aiding, or maintaining salvation...lest anyone have reason to boast.

I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us, are we not keeping our salvation by being good and risking works righteousness?

Once again..if it is .00001% about me...it is not ALL about Him.

Just some thoughts

John 15:15-20 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As a chosen branch, all that I am as a branch is coming form the root, vine or tree. Not only chosen but ordained to bring forth fruit. Christ's ordination of the believer, is non refundable. If Christ ordains it, it will be so and the Father will get the glory. For it is Christ in us that is the Glory. I am just praising God that He chose to birth His Son in me.
All that I am is because of Him. I am nothing without Him. 0, zip, Nada, nothing. With Him I am all the Father intended me to be or ever will be.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I praise God that I have the faith-Christ in me and everything else that God has made me to be in Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Wisevirgin

You are indeed wise and blessed by God. Although I've only read some of your posts (here and there) but I can tell that your posts are very edifying.

Wisevirgin,

I have enjoyed and agree very much with the sovereignty of God and His all powerful ability in saving us by grace alone through faith which are the gifts of God.

The bible says that we only love Him because He first loved us. The bible also talks about the responsibility that God has given to us.

These three scriptures seem to show us that God has given to us a part in salvation by His grace.

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

It seems very clear that Paul believed that more people could be saved by his dedication to the ministry.

I know that we can’t make ourselves born again and nothing can be accomplished with out God’s enablement.

If the number of the elect has already been decided without man being involved, why did Paul make these statements which clearly show man’s involvement.

The prayer that the Lord taught the disciples, He even said for us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It is clear that God works through man and it seems to me the success in the gospel ministry and even in the winning of souls is also in the obedience of man in following God’s plan.

Blessings!

tjservant wrote:
**edit**
Added original question for context

So, are you saying that salvation is dependent upon ones continued actions of obedience?

The only action that you must do is abide in Christ, yes.

This sounds as if the believer is responsible for his own salvation to some degree.

Relationships are a two way entity. Both must do their part.

This type of maintenance salvation seems to be dependent upon man's ability.

I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us, are we not keeping our salvation by being good and risking works righteousness?

Once again..if it is .00001% about me...it is not ALL about Him.

Just as my marriage is about me & my wife.
Just as a famility is about the parent [b]and[/b] the kids.

wisevirgin wrote:
Is the following quote true or false?

(Logic)
"one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith."

YES! Not one,but many,will indeed walk away from Christ, and depart from the faith they [b]seemed[/b] to have.

Say you used to believe in evolution.
Now you don't.
Was the faith in evolution, seeming?
No, you actually believed it, until you were persuaded from it to the truth.

Same as for Christianity.
One may truly believe in the doctrines and have true faith in Christ.
However, one may be persuaded to a lie and not believe it any more.
It is called deception, Jesus warned about it to His disciples.

Therefore, the following quote is true:

(Logic)
"one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith."