Menu

Is Harry Potter Initiating Children Into Magic, Wicca, Witchcraft & Satanism?

M
MandM

A brief break from all of the "Todd Bentley" threads.....

The video in the article posted below claims that the Harry Potter series of books and movies is leading our children into things such as sorcery, curses, black magic, demon possession, witchcraft and satanism:

http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/07/harry-potter-series-of-books-movies.html

What is your opinion about the material the video presents? Should we let our kids read and watch Harry Potter?

D
DelightedInU


MandM wrote:
A brief break from all of the "Todd Bentley" threads.....

[breathing out] yes, I agree.... :)

Didn't click on the link, but my opinion is that God says that we should put no wicked thing before our eyes. God hates witchcraft - and sorcery and magic to me falls into that category. I would not let me kids read those books or watch the movies. Even as Christians we have to worry about desensitization. 100 years ago - it was not ok to watch and enjoy the, violence and homosexuality and demonic images that we see on TV and read today. And what happened? - there was a lot less of everything back when - sure it existed, but as it was more and more introduced into our minds we became desensitized to it and now it is accepted and what has happened? There is a significant increase of all of those things. What we put into our minds does affect us and will display itself through our actions eventually. It is impossible for us to not be affected by the witchcraft and sorcery in Harry Potter. The devil wants us to think that it is innocent fun, but it's not. It's indoctrination, that the things that God HATES is ok to enjoy. And if you enjoy those things, you aren't far from participating in such things. This goes for any sin.

J
jordanamo

I think it's a ridiculous notion to think that the Harry Potter series is going to lead children into "sorcery ... demon possession, witchcraft, satanism" etc. Children know this stuff is fiction. It's no different from any other fantasy book they'd read, or really any book in general.

It's a work of fiction. It's great that millions of children have gotten into reading because of this series. It's unfortunate that people overreact to it and think it's going to corrupt children's minds or something.

The video shows some children actually accepting Harry Potter, at least parts of witchcraft, as reality. I'd like to see the sources for those quotes.. where they got them from. For sure there will be some children that do accept it as reality, but this is where parental responsibility comes into place. Those children probably had parents that didn't care much and/or encouraged them.

Jordan

G
ginnyrose

Jordan, your argument reminds me of this story:

Dad's Brownies

A father of some teenage children had the family rule that they could not attend PG-13 or R rated movies. His three teens wanted to see a particular popular movie that was playing at local theaters. It was rated PG-13.
The teens interviewed friends and even some members of their family's church to find out what was offensive in the movie. The teens made a list of pros and cons about the movie to use to convince their dad that they should be allowed to see it. The con's were that it contained ONLY 3 swear words, the ONLY violence was a building exploding (and you see that on TV all the time they said), and you actually did not "see" the couple in the movie having sex - it was just implied sex, off camera. The pros were that it was a popular movie - a block buster. Everyone was seeing it. If the teens saw the movie then they would not feel left out when their friends discussed it. The movie contained a good story and plot. It had some great adventure and suspense in it. There were some fantastic special effects in this movie. The movie's stars were some of the most talented actors in Hollywood. It probably would be nominated for several awards.
Many of the members of their Christian church had even seen the movie and said it wasn't "very bad". Therefore, since there were more pros than cons the teens said they were asking their father to reconsider his position on just this ONE movie and let them have permission to go see it.
The father looked at the list and thought for a few minutes. He said he could tell his children had spent some time and thought on this request. He asked if he could have a day to think about it before making his decision. The teens were thrilled thinking; "Now we've got him! Our argument is too good! Dad can't turn us down!" So, they happily agreed to let him have a day to think about their request.
The next evening the father called in his three teenagers, who were smiling smugly, into the living room. There on the coffee table he had a plate of brownies. The teens were puzzled. The father told his children he had thought about their request and had decided that if they would eat a brownie then he would let them go to the movie. But just like the movie, the brownies had pros and cons.
The pros were that they were made with the finest chocolate and other good ingredients. They had the added special effect of yummy walnuts in them. The brownies were moist and fresh with wonderful chocolate frosting on top. He had made these fantastic brownies using an award-winning recipe. And best of all, the brownies had been made lovingly by the hand of their own father.
The brownies only had one con. The father had included a little bit of a special ingredient. The brownies also contained just a little bit of dog poop. But he had mixed the dough well - they probably would not even be able to taste the dog poop and he had baked it at 350 degrees so any bacteria or germs from the dog poop had probably been destroyed.
Therefore, if any of his children could stand to eat the brownies which included just a "little bit of crap" and not be effected by it, then he knew they would also be able to see the movie with "just a little bit of smut" and not be effected.
Of course, none of the teens would eat the brownies and the smug smiles had left their faces. Only Dad was smiling smugly as they left the room.
Now when his teenagers ask permission to do something he is opposed to the father just asks, "Would you like me to whip up a batch of my special brownies?"

Author Unknown

ginnyrose

M
Miccah


ginnyrose wrote:



Therefore, if any of his children could stand to eat the brownies which included just a "little bit of crap" and not be effected by it, then he knew they would also be able to see the movie with "just a little bit of smut" and not be effected.


Splendid :-)

D
DreamTrekker


Miccah wrote:

ginnyrose wrote:



Therefore, if any of his children could stand to eat the brownies which included just a "little bit of crap" and not be effected by it, then he knew they would also be able to see the movie with "just a little bit of smut" and not be effected.


Splendid :-)

Fantasy is not necessarily smut, and having read the series as an adult, and enjoyed them, I don't see a problem with them...for those that can distinguish between reality and fantasy.

8-)

D
DelightedInU



Fantasy is not necessarily smut, and having read the series as an adult, and enjoyed them, I don't see a problem with them...for those that can distinguish between reality and fantasy.

8-)

Yes, but not every child is able to distinguish between reality and fantasy as you as an adult are able to. Some people will believe anything you tell them. And if you allow them to read it then you are telling them, maybe indirecly that it is ok. But the question is, why are you taking pleasure in the things God hates?

M
Miccah


DelightedInU wrote:

But the question is, why are you taking pleasure in the things God hates?


And THAT my friend is the $64,000 question.

Bravo DelightedInU :-)

L
Limey153

I know that I am treading on some toes here but I can hardly believe that there are christians who find that Harry Potter is good to read or watch!
Magic and sorcery is nothing short of demonic, the bible in no uncertain terms says that we do not partake in such things. So why oh why would we ever want to watch these things??
I don't care if it is a fun storyline or just a cute kid playing around, witchcraft is NEVER harmless fun. Satan has wrapped up Harry Potter in this cute fun image only so as to create an interest and fascination in the occult which he intends to expand on. Harry Potter is the spark that starts the forest fire.

G
godsewe

As I am reading the postings here I am wondering...Have any of you nay sayers read the books? I have read them all just so I could see for myself what all the hub bub was about. My conclusion was......Great Books. Please take the time to put your prejudice aside and read with a open mind. The books never call on evil spirits as do witches and the like. The magic is pure fiction, it never could happen (cars don't fly, trees don't live etc). The books do get increasingly dark, but there is a point. The struggle between good and evil, and doing what is right over what is easy make for good spring boards for conversation with children. I could say a whole lot more, but let me conclude with this....Believe it or not the are a lot of great christian themes in the book, and I do mean a lot. I would suggest a book entitled Looking For God In Harry Potter. I hope many of you will just take a few moments to step back and begin to look for God in our culture and use those things as witnessing tools to the lost instead of always looking for what evil is behind every door.

G
ginnyrose

The Scripture also informs us that whatsoever a man thinketh so is he (Pro. 23:7) which explains why some fantasy lit is extremely dangerous. Porn comes to my mind as well as dirty novels, even those without pictures. A good word smith can write that will inflame emotions, passions that would best be left alone. Personally, I had to quit reading magazines, book (even though I was careful in my selection) for this very reason. And I am a woman!

While we are on the subject of fantasy, I would like to share a bit more.

Fantasy is fine - I would guess - unless there is an expert who could differentiate between it and creativity. There may be a difference but I have never thought this thing through. Anyhow, to imagine what could be, how to accomplish it is essential to creativity: to think outside the box and how to accomplish it.

After our daughter died I was tempted to fantasize about her and her husband paying us a surprise visit, similar to the one they did years earlier. But in my spirit there was a loud DO NOT do it! This happened every time I was tempted to let my imagination go there. You know why it was bad? Because I was setting myself up for unnecessary grief which could bring on anger against God for taking her home.

Another time when I was missing her so much, I was reminded of Rev. Pike who also missed his son after an untimely death who resorted to spirit-ism to communicate with his son's spirit. This was strong on my mind when I received a bouquet of flowers with a note attached as though it was from our daughter! I was very upset because of the things I was experiencing in my spirit at the time. I could understand why Rev. Pike so longed to speak to his son and perhaps could understand why he succumbed to that temptation..now here it was laid at my door, on my lap in the form of a beautiful flower arrangement!

The point? Fantasy for pleasure is very harmful. It will/can lead you where you do not want to go.

And there is so much other good lit out there, why bother with anything that is questionable? Actually, I love to read children's literature, the classics, like the books written by Sterling North and others. Read them and they will delight you. Might even want to get a baby raccoon - we did all because of the book "Rascal"!

My thoughts...

ginnyrose

H
HomeFree89

Jordan,

If it were a homosexual as the lead character and role model would it be still be ok?

Jordan :-)

H
HomeFree89

Below I've copied and pasted a great article about HP. Please give it a read!

Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade

By Douglas W. Phillips
As well as being extraordinarily popular, the [Harry Potter] books have encouraged millions of children to start reading for the first time.... For those who have a problem with the idea of fantasy and alternative universes alongside ours, we need to recognize that almost all children play imaginative games in their minds starting at a very young age and have no difficulty whatsoever in distinguishing between fantasy and reality.... Additionally, the Harry Potter books send a strong message about moral order. There are beautiful and enjoyable human relationships among the characters, and there is a depth of commitment and service among them.... Finally, I see the books as valuable because they consistently include the three fundamental themes that can be found as a subtext in almost all good literature: the beauty of creation, the appalling reality of evil, and the universal human longing for redemption.... J.K. Rowling does not profess to be a Christian, as far as I am aware, but she has insight into the themes that are at the very heart of what Christians understand to be true about the nature of the universe in which we live.... All truth is God’s truth, and non-Christians recognize that truth to one degree or another.... It is said that because magic is a part of the ... books, they may have the effect of interesting children in the reality of the Occult.... The magic is simply a part of the imaginative worlds.... Some people have gone on record as stating that they believe that J.K. Rowling is purposely and explicitly teaching Occult and even Satanic practice. As a Christian, I have to say I am profoundly ashamed of those who have responded with this kind of malicious gossip. We must recognize that whenever she talks about evil magic she presents it as evil. (Jerram Barr, Professor of Christianity and Contemporary Culture and Resident Scholar at The Francis Schaeffer Institute)[1]

Breaking News
This morning, the publishing industry surprised the world by releasing a new, unexpected companion volume to last week’s sixth installment of J.K. Rowling’s hugely successful Harry Potter series. As word of the new release spread like wildfire, crowds of frenzied children and teenagers began thronging at the doors of hundreds of local bookstores in the United States and U.K., hoping to be among the first to receive their own copy of a book bearing the title: Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade.
Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade continues to perpetuate all the sorceries, incantations, and spells which have delighted children around the world. But this installment of Harry Potter introduces a new theme — homosexuality. In Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade, we discover that the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is expanding its curriculum base to provide mandatory training in homosexuality for all of its recruits. Harry discovered in Book One that he was born with witchcraft in his blood. Now, recent discoveries show that the same students born with the gift of magic also possess a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. With this in mind, the goal of Hogwarts is to teach its students the proper and moral way to be homosexual witches. Students must learn about safety, monogamy, and even social etiquette.
But the race is on. A second witch training academy run by evil witches has also discovered their own homosexual predispositions. Unlike Hogwarts, they intend to use their homosexuality for evil. They teach their students evils like sexual promiscuity. They openly encourage pedophilia. It is the mission of Harry and his intrepid gang of sodomite warlocks and lesbian witches (dubbed “The Lavender Brigade”) to once again stop the menace of bad witches.

No Cause for Concern
Perhaps some Christians have concerns about children’s literature in which homosexuality is both a defining characteristic of the protagonists and a thematic element which runs from beginning to the end of the novel.
Relax. Don’t be so uptight. Don’t worry, Christian parents. Harry Potter is not the real world! It is an imaginary world. Children know the difference between the two. They are not going to start dressing up like their heroes or pretending to do the same things their heroes do in the stories. After all, it is just a pretend story. Thoughtful Christian critics will recognize that the author has created an alternative reality with a completely different set of rules. Sodomy may be wrong in the real world, but it is not wrong in Harry Potter’s reality, and it would be sophomoric to think that, just because the book is one long story about the glories of good homosexuality in the world of Harry Potter, that it desensitizes children to the problems with homosexuality in the real world. We should be ashamed of any Christians who would claim the author is promoting perversion. She makes strong distinctions between good homosexuality and bad homosexuality. Bad homosexuality is always presented as really bad.
And here is the clincher: Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade is a brilliant, well-written adventure that includes all the great themes of classic literature — the creation of an alternative reality where different rules apply, a carefully-executed plot, and clear elements of good versus evil. The story presents the beauty of creation and the appalling reality of evil. (Keep in mind that all truth is God’s truth.) There is even a strong redemption theme in the story as the leader of the pro-pedophilia group realizes the wrongness of his ways and joins the good sodomites of Hogwarts. In the end, good sodomites triumph over bad sodomites and order is restored to the alternative universe.

Confession
Okay, so there is no Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade. I made it up.
What I have not made up is the fact that Pottermania has engulfed the youth of a generation, setting an unprecedented frenzy of sales of the recent installment, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.[2] Within the first twenty-four hours of its release, nearly seven million copies were sold in the United States alone. Assuming a 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. sales schedule, that means they averaged nearly 600,000 copies an hour.
Also not made up is the fact that there are growing numbers of intelligent, reasonable, Christian teachers and scholars — some are friends whom I dearly love and respect — who are on record as giving their blessing to Harry Potter and supporting the inclusion of Harry Potter books as a healthy, positive part of the literary diet of Christian children. I disagree with them for many reasons, but it is the limited purpose of this article to focus in on and address what I see as their root argument.

The Argument for Potter
To begin with, there really is no debate between us over the basic facts of the Potter series. We all agree that Harry Potter is a story about young children engaged in the study and practice of witchcraft. The heroes of the stories are always good witches. Typically, the bad guys are bad witches. Second, in fairness, it must be acknowledged that these men recognize the wickedness of the occult and would squarely oppose the practice of witchcraft in the real world. None of them would want their children attempting to cast spells or dabbling in the dark arts.
What, then, is the fundamental argument employed by honorable Christian thinkers like Mr. Barr of Covenant Seminary (cited above) to endorse Harry Potter and to justify the creation of children’s books which are simply drenched in the glorification of sorcery?
It is this: Fantasy worlds are not the real world. Authors need not follow the same moral rules in fantasy realities. Things which are downright wicked in the real world may be introduced in a fantasy world and presented as good, if this literary device helps to serve the broader purpose of telling a great story.
My question is: If we may bend God’s moral laws in fantasy realities, then why is “Harry the Hero-Witch” okay for our children, but “Harry the Hero-Homosexual” not?
Both witchcraft and perversion are deemed “works of the flesh” and “abominations” in Scripture.[3] Both are immoral acts for which the practitioner stands condemned. Why would one be cute, fun, appealing, and — most importantly — legitimate in a fantasy reality, and the other unacceptable?

Not for Debate Today
Before presenting my argument, please permit me to clear away some debris.
First, it is not my purpose today to offer a broad-sweeping critique of the propriety and/or impropriety, strengths and/or weaknesses of fantasy as a genre. This is a worthy, big, important subject, but not my subject for the day. Nor am I arguing that because something is popular it is therefore inescapably evil. (I happen to like ice cream, and it does not bother me that ninety percent of Americans like it, too.) Mass entertainment appeal can raise concerns, but this argument will not carry the day one way or another.
Nor am I going to argue that Harry Potter is bad because it presents bad attitudes toward authority. To the extent that the bad attitudes of protagonists are either left unresolved in the story or presented to the reader as acceptable behavior — that is a big problem. But if this debate were really about bad attitudes, our criticism for Harry Potter would be similar in kind to that which might be expressed for 95% of the popular children’s literature and television programming of our day — media which is contributing by bad example to the discipleship in selfishness of a nation of bratty, disrespectful boys and girls.
Nor is it my purpose today to justify or condemn the Harry Potter series by comparing it to, or distinguishing it from, The Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia. Similarities and distinctions between these series abound, but at the end of the day, neither the brilliant C.S. Lewis nor the ingenious J.R.R. Tolkien are the standard by which literature is to be judged. That standard is the revealed word of God alone which is a sufficient guide for all of faith and practice, including the development of biblical principles for evaluating literature. If either Lewis or Tolkien are guilty of employing literary devices inconsistent with a biblical worldview, then to the extent which they have missed the mark, we must be willing to say so. If not, great! But at all costs, we must not allow sentiment and experientialism to drive our theology. The issue is not whether Tolkien, Lewis, Rowling, or any other author can tell a great story, foster creative thinking, or entertain the reader — but whether they have done so lawfully.
I am less concerned with slippery-slope arguments, psychological arguments, or even empirical data about the number of children who have joined covens after reading Harry Potter. Some of the arguments are valid, some less so, some may be straw men, but none of these arguments are necessary if it can be demonstrated that, in its premise and execution, Harry Potter is inherently unbiblical, being in plain violation of the revealed law of God.

To Be Debated Today
The question is this: Is it biblically lawful to create alternative literary realities in which necromancy and witchcraft are presented as glorious, healthy, positive, and good?[4]
I say no because I believe to do so is inconsistent with revealed law. If pro-witchcraft fantasy realities are unlawful, then the fundamental question of whether Harry Potter is healthy literature is resolved.
Stated another way, the question is: Does the creation of “alternative fantasy realities” allow authors to employ literary premises which declare “good” that which God has declared morally reprehensible in the real world?
And another: If certain acts are abominations over which God pronounces the death sentence in the real world, should Christians glory in the same abominable practices when presented as desirable and declared to be “good” in the fantasy worlds of literature?

The Case Against Potter
The case that I would like to respectfully make in response to my brothers who defend Harry Potter is built on four propositions:
The seriousness of God’s prohibition on witchcraft and His declaration that it is immoral to practice dark arts make it unlawful even to pretend that witchcraft is a good thing;
Man may not lawfully escape the righteous rule of God by entering fantasy realities in which the law of God does not apply;
To create fantasy universes built on propositions which are immoral is to undermine the character of God Himself or establish false gods; and
God holds man accountable for vain imaginations. This means that fantasy is only lawful insofar as it does not undermine the moral law of God.

Point #1: The Seriousness of God’s Prohibition on Witchcraft
When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD.... (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
The Bible, both Old and New Testament, has much to say about witchcraft, all of which is supremely negative. In anticipation of nitpickers and legalists who want to wiggle out of the prohibition against witchcraft, the Bible details by specific precept and numerous examples the wickedness of those who seek such supernatural powers and the judgment that will fall upon them.
The prohibitions against witchcraft elaborate to include witchcraft in any form or expression. Sorcerers, mediums, soothsayers, spell-casters, astrologers, and those who practice any dark art fall under the prohibition.
Witchcraft is declared to be an abomination (Exodus 22:18; Deuteronomy 8:9-12; 1 Samuel 15:23; Isaiah 8:19-20). Those who practice it are in rebellion against God (1 Samuel 15:23) and were subject to the death penalty (Exodus 22:18). They will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21), are detestable to the Lord (2 Kings 21:6; Micah 5:12; Isaiah 47:12; Ezekiel 13:18,20; Acts 8:11-24; Leviticus 20:27; Exodus 7:11; Revelation 9:21; 22:15), and will be cast into the burning lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
Furthermore, God describes sorcery as an immoral “work of the flesh” and lumps it in with idolatry, murder, and adultery, declaring that those who do such will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21; Revelation 9:21).
The biblical response of God’s people to witchcraft is to (1) drive it from the land (Deuteronomy 18:9-12); (2) flee from every vestige of it, even if this means publicly burning expensive books (Acts 19:19); and (3) rebuke attempts to mix the spirit of sorcery with the spirit of Christ (Acts 8:1-40).

Point #2: Man May Never Escape the Righteous Rule of God
Supernatural powers, by definition, are the means to suspend or work outside of the natural law order created by God.[5] Our God reserves supernatural powers to Himself because He alone is the creator and the object of worship. He will share His glory with none other. Witchcraft is an abomination, not because of some arbitrary, localized principle applicable only to ancient Israel, but because it is rebellion against God Himself, who never, ever changes. Witchcraft is man’s attempt to be like God. It can involve the explicit false worship of devils, but it need not. Conjuring, sorcery, and divination are all attempts to have powers reserved to God. They are attempts to live outside of the reality in which God has placed man.
I am frankly amazed at the efforts of some to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when it comes to the issue of witchcraft. It truly seems like we are often more interested in justifying the theology of Walt Disney, than we are in sticking to the plain teaching of Scripture. The fact is that the Bible makes no distinctions between cute, harmless sorcery (or necromancy or divination) and a bad kind. Any attempt to participate or dabble in supernatural dark arts is a crime in God’s universe. You can dress up cute little fairies in bonnets, but the minute they attempt to cast spells or invoke supernatural powers reserved to God, they become moral criminals.
Note that we are not discussing fiction about potential scientific discoveries. The exploration of the natural universe is explicitly given to man by God as a means of understanding Him better and for executing his duty under God to take dominion over the earth. And let’s not kid ourselves — Harry Potter is not about scientific children who create amazing flying-broom machines. It is about sorcerers engaged in witchcraft. Under the Hebrew economy, Harry Potter, the great hero of a generation of children, would be put to death[6] by direct order of the King of Kings and author of all reality — Jesus Christ Himself.
Nor are we criticizing Harry Potter for the inclusion of talking animals in its storyline. The Bible begins[7] and ends[8] with revelations about talking animals, a fact which establishes beyond any doubt that the inclusion of talking animals in storytelling is not per se an abomination which assaults the very character of God. Similarly, dragons,[9] demons,[10] giants,[11] and unicorns[12] may be the stuff of fantasy lore, but they are also real creatures discussed, as such, in the Bible. None of these elements assault the righteous rule of God, but a fantasy universe filled with “good sorcerers” does.

Point #3: Man May Not Refashion a God of His Own Imagination — Even in a Fantasy Reality
The eternal quest of rebellious man is to escape the law and dominion of God. Man wants to create realities of his own where he is free to operate without the constraint of the rule of law as prescribed by God. The moral law of God and its application in the universe reflect the eternal, transcendent, immutable character of God Himself.[13] Consequently, those who seek to create alternative realities in which the moral law of God is suspended are, in fact, creating alternative realities governed by something or someone other than the God of the Bible. This god need not be explicitly revealed by name. He can be implied or simply assumed. Even the perceived absence of a god in an alternative reality presupposes some unifying, eternal, transcendent principle or “force.” The point is this: Every alternative reality has a god. Those alternative realities which alter the moral law of the God of the Bible thereby substitute a false god as lord over the universe they have created.
Like the Babel-builders of the past, twenty-first century man is discontent with the rules and realities given to him by God. He wants a different reality. It is the quest of some fantasy literature to satisfy this ungodly longing by recreating God in man’s own image. This happens when we construct literary worlds which rest on propositions which challenge the very character of God Himself.
Note that the use of allegories, parables, types, and symbolism can be employed in literature lawfully and to the glory of God. Jesus Christ modeled this Himself in Holy Scripture.[14] Christ-honoring authors may draw from a host of techniques and circumstances when employing such literary devices. But the moment an author redefines the moral law order of the universe, he has left the realm of legitimate analogical reasoning and creative allegory, and has declared war on God. This is the case for fantasy realities in which murder, perversion, or witchcraft are presented as good things.
The character of God is challenged when we posit alternative realities which redefine the moral law order of God to allow men to delight in that which would be deemed wickedness in the real world. Creating worlds of good witchcraft versus bad witchcraft is a prime example of the problem. No such world can exist — anywhere — not even in our own imagination, without redefining the nature and attributes of God Himself. The essence of witchcraft and the desire to employ the tools of witchcraft are an assault on the Lordship and sovereignty of God. By virtue of the fact that Harry and his friends are “good guys” in pursuit of the very powers reserved to God Himself in the real world, the god of Harry Potter’s universe is, ispo facto, a different god than the God of our universe.
And no one need ask, “What Would Jesus Do?” in the real world to Harry and his friends, because the Bible answers the question with deafening specificity:
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

Point #4: The Bible Forbids Not Merely Acts, But Vain Imaginations
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (Psalm 2:1)
Not all imagination is wrong, but vain imagination is wrong. A “vain imagination” is one in which man seeks to create a reality at war with God and His law.
We live in a world in which millions of men and women leave what they perceive to be a humdrum life of marriage to escape into a fantasy-world of alternative reality. They do this in their minds.[15] They are aided and abetted in this practice by literature, images, and film which become the mediator between the individual and the fantasy world. In their alternative fantasy realities, these men and women are not married to their boring, overweight, selfish wives and husbands. Instead, they are able to enjoy intimate relations, free of guilt, with seemingly perfect individuals who appear nearly superhuman in their emotional and physical perfections. Since this is only a fantasy — the argument goes — there is nothing wrong with it. Some argue that modern man can actually cope better in the real world if he regularly visits his fantasy world.[16]
Christian advocates of Harry Potter make the same mistake: In effect, they are arguing that little children may freely take witchcraft into their hearts by identifying with their sorcerer-hero and rejoicing in his magical powers — just so long as they would not engage in dark arts in the real world. After all, little children know the difference between reality and fiction.
This response misses the point. The Bible offers no refuge to the individual who says, “It is okay for me to imagine and rejoice in the vanity of immoral speculations, because I am not doing it in the real world.” If you imagine such things in your heart, you stand condemned. The Lord Jesus Christ answered those legalists who wanted to limit the scope of the culpability before the law to the physical world. He explained that they would be condemned for having wicked imaginations in their fantasy world as well:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:27-28)
The same principle that applies to pornographic literature applies to witchcraft-glorifying literature. Men do not have the right to enter fantasy worlds in which they delight in their hearts in acts of adultery. Nor do they have the right to enter fantasy worlds in which they delight in immoral acts of witchcraft.

The Use of Witchcraft in Literature and Entertainment
For the record, I do not oppose the appropriate inclusion of witchcraft in literature. The Bible tells the story of actual witches. It describes the practices of these witches and reveals the laws against witchcraft. We learn of the divinations of Jezebel,[17] the consultation by Saul with the witch of Endor,[18] and the influence and rebuke of Simon the Sorcerer.[19] Witchcraft is in Old and New Testaments. But witchcraft is always presented as an incontrovertible evil.
Just as there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about adultery, perversion, or murder — there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about witchcraft (see Galatians 4:24).[20] It is one thing for a story to include adultery, perversion, murder, and witchcraft in their true despicable form as an element necessary to make a righteous point, but it is another to portray abominations as virtues. Any television show, film, or literature which does the latter is encouraging others to identify in their imaginations with evil.
To put it bluntly: Bewitched — bad! Walt Disney’s Merlin from Sword in the Stone — bad! Glinda the Good Witch of Oz — bad! The White Witch of Narnia — not necessarily bad at all, because she is presented as the incarnation of evil. Gandalf? You will have to do the math yourself.[21]

Concessions
At this point, I am losing some of you. You have cherished fond childhood memories of these icons of twentieth-century culture. There is massive sentimental value associated with these stories. If the principles articulated in this paper are true, then there could be some substantial boat-rocking in your life — perhaps even some changes in your reading or viewing diet. I hear you. My own boat has been substantially rocked over the years as I have considered the implications of the character of God and His law-word upon the icons of modern culture.
Let me offer a little help and a few concessions:
Concession number one: There are some genuine challenges and tough calls involved when evaluating what constitutes Christ-honoring literature. I fully recognize the complexity of faithfully applying these principles, for example, to the use of various literary devices that appear to incorporate mysterious transportation vehicles or tools which possess unusual powers. Meditation, prayer, and reasoned analysis are the need of the hour. Faithful men may disagree on some applications. But the challenge of application never absolves us of our personal duty before the Lord to rigorously examine everything in light of Scripture.
Second, there is not a man on the planet who is perfectly consistent in the application of the biblical principles he understands, let alone the ones with which he is grappling. Here again, the fact that there are inconsistencies in our behavior, or holes in our thinking, does not relieve us of the biblical duty to become more consistent in the application of our Christianity as we take every thought, frame, and note — everything — captive to the obedience of Christ.
Third, many Christians are uncomfortable tossing out an otherwise “good story” because it has one offensive element. I certainly understand this challenge. For some, the answer is to perform a balancing test which weighs the good against the bad to see which comes out on top. But when it comes to Harry Potter, no balancing act is needed. This consideration need not apply. Why? Because the premise of the stories is witchcraft, the plot of the story is witchcraft, and the protagonists are all witches. From beginning to end, Harry Potter is a story immersed in a subversive lie about a genuine abomination called witchcraft. Period! Harry Potter calls evil good, and thus falls under the explicit censure of our Lord.

Conclusion
Harry Potter favorably models for children that which the Bible clearly and unequivocally declares to be an abomination.[22] It creates heroes of a class of individuals that the Bible declares to be villains. In the world that God created, the heroes of Harry Potter would (absent their repentance) be enemies of the Church and eternally damned souls.
Moral evil does not become acceptable simply because it is presented in an alternative reality. There is no such thing as good witchcraft, good bestiality, good sodomy, good child sacrifice, or good Dagon worship in this reality (the only reality created by God); and man is not at liberty to free himself from the law of God by concocting fantasy worlds of his imagination in which the transcendent, eternal, binding moral law of God no longer applies.
Finally, the Bible, not sentimentalism or personal experience, is the only standard by which the Christian may evaluate his culture.[23] By this standard, Harry Potter fails the test of biblical acceptability. Just as Christians should oppose the glorified homosexuality of a hypothetical Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade, so they should also recognize the systemic poison of any and all Potter books that are built on the false proposition that witchcraft can be a good thing.
But these two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day: The loss of children, and widowhood. They shall come upon you in their fullness because of the multitude of your sorceries, for the great abundance of your enchantments. (Isaiah 47:9)

J
jordanamo


HomeFree89 wrote:
Jordan,

If it were a homosexual as the lead character and role model would it be still be ok?

Jordan :-)


I have never heard that. Having not read the books I can't comment if it's true, only those who have can. Doing some googling it seems to be not true. This article is null and void unless it quotes the book.

Yea, there is NO such book as "Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade"-- that article is nonsensical. From the article: "Okay, so there is no Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade. I made it up." -- what a joke!

To answer your question nonetheless, it would still be OK if the lead protagonist was gay. No different than the if the lead character were black or female, two groups that were not so long ago treated as gays and lesbians are today. But of course, that has little relevance in this discussion.

Jordan

H
HomeFree89

No, that's not the same. God made the person with their skin color black or made their sex male or female. The person chooses to be gay or straight. Being black isn't sin, being a homosexual is.

P.S.

Did you read the whole article? The point really isn't about the Lavender Brigade...

L
LogoPhilius

I've gone back and forth over this concept for a while. I've read all 7 books, seen whatever movies have come out by now (I forget) and consider myself a "fan," with some moderate modifications of the word.

In regards to the original question, I do not think that the Potter universe/books lead folks into witchcraft. The brand of magic presented in Potterland is definitely fantasy. There is minimal basis in reality of the type of magic that is present there actually existing. My wife is a former practitioner (albeit, pretty lame practitioner with minimal experience) of wiccan ideology in her pre-renewed life, and she would verify that the stuff that goes on in whatshername's novels is not what current practitioners of magic, sorcery, etc... try. It's not like the Brown novel... what was that again... the old artist... Davinci Code! yeah, Davinci code, where the ceremonies and things there hinted of a true cult like power and obeisance to Satan, which occur in our world today.

My general point is that for Potter to lead kids to sorcery, it would need to be presented in a more realistic way. As a kid, I was looking for that kind of stuff, and if I ran accross Potter back then, it would not have helped me on my path.

So, the magic in Potter is not realistic. I would compare it to "the force" in the Star Wars books/movies. So if one were to condemn PotterMagic, then their attack, to be consistent, should also be set upon all other forms of imaginary magic, and not just Potter, such as Star Wars, Tolkein, or even our beloved C.S. Lewis's Narnia septology (it was seven books, wasn't it?).

WAIT! one would object, Narnia was all about Aslan sacrificing himself for Narnia and for those individuals, wasn't it? And look at Lord of the Rings, wasn't Gandolf a Christ-figure?

I suppose. But if you were to review the Potter books, Harry, in the very end, had to sacrifice himself, and willingly embrace death at the hands of that guy who is not supposed to be named, so that the people he was fighting for could be saved. Then, after he embraced death and was killed, he was resurrected a short while later for one reason or another. I don't think Rowling was deliberately painting a picture of Jesus like Lewis was, and Tolein may have been, but the comparison is there.

am I boring anyone yet? Sorry.

My wife has a moderate objection to Potter for different reasons. As stated above, she doesn't feel that the type of magic portrayed in Potter is consistent with the type of magic or sorcery that is present in this world, but she does see Harry as a kid who breaks rules, gives adults a mild amount of cheek, and whose story demonstrates that sometimes kids just know more than adults and they should do what they thinkn they need to because they are sometimes right. I'd be terrified if my 4-year-old learned that...

So, point one, no, Potter doesn't lead kids into witchcraft as it exists in our world, point two, Harry can easily be seen as a type of literary Christ, although the comparison is far from perfect (please, don't blast me unless you've read the books for making that statement), and is comparable to Tolkein or Lewis, and, ermm... where was I? Point three, if you are going to condemn Potter, condemn Star Wars, other fantasy type stories, and perhaps the dynamic duo from the Rabbit Room noted above.

I imagine I have another point, but I'm not sure what it was... Oh yes. I remember now.

I do find in my life, that it is very easy for me to have other gods and things that take first place in my heart. Things that I seek out and desire more than God. Usually, that takes the form of entertainment. I do love to read, and I have affection for science fiction and fantasy, as well as other types of fiction. there is something about Harry Potter that is very attractive to the eager mind. There is mystery, there is intrigue, there are fantastic things that capture our imaginations. Perhaps that is where the success is rooted. I find, in my life, that it is very easy for me to lust after those things.

so I am very cautious when I engage in non-biblical activies. Don't get me wrong, I go to an occasional baseball game (hmm, my Rays are in first place now, who'd a thought), and I may indulge myself once a week in an hour of LOST, but I know that I have to watch myself, because those things war against my desire for the LORD, and threaten to capture my attention from the lover of my soul. In the past, Potter has done that to me.

So at this point, I do avoid the books. Not for most of the reasons noted above, but because the time commitment involved threatens my study and reading of the scriptures. Unfortunately, I am not at the point in my walk where I am willing to completely divorce myself from the world: Meaning NO involvement with ANY form of entertainment that is not strictly biblical, or at least attempts to be, such as Facing the Giants, or the soon to be released movie by the same church in Georgia... gosh, my mind is bad today... something about not being flamable as it's about a firefighter... fireproof, that's it (I had to go search it on another window, sorry). And to be honest, I am not completely assured that the Bible recommends complete abstinence of entertainment.

Am I rambling too much? I think so, so I'll stop now.

L
learn

I've read and seen some of the Harry Potter books/videos before I became a true Christian. I was supposedly a Christian before I knew what true Christianity is about. I also liked to see horror/ghost movies.

1 of my favourite shows was Lord of The Rings. I can watch it many times without getting tired. In fact, there was something there that help cover up my sorrow for a while while watching it.


When I was converted, my longing for Lord of The Rings disappeared. I would rather read the bible than see the show (its much more enjoyable to me to read the bible and Lord of The Rings would taste bland now ie like eating food without salt). Over time, my interest in tv also diminished ie like eating bland food. Do I still get longing over watching tv at times--yes but not as much. (I still watch some youtube tapes but they are mainly about nature or Christianity). Some of the sorrow that I feel has also disappeared, its like there's a covering over the hole in my heart so that I don't hurt so bad.

Also, now I would not be interested in seeing Harry Potter or ghost movies. I'm sure there are scriptures advising against watching these as what have been quoted by others here. For me, the main reason is that these shows tend to 'frighten me in not a good way now'. Also, they are no longer that appealing.


I find that the more I focus on God and incorporate Him in my daily life, the less I am attached to the desires of this world. Lesser time spent with Him (bible), meditating/reflecting on God, rushing through the daily things of the world all tend to dull my connection with God and make me look at things more on the humanistic side, justifying/argueing it that its ok on human terms rather than on how God will view it and how if we are truly full of the spirit feels.

The thing is when we are not sure whether its right or wrong in God's eyes, then the answer is to continually pray about it and ask God to show us the right way. Sometimes it takes quite some time for one to know, but when its time to reveal in God's eyes, He will let us know.

L
LogoPhilius

learn, you did a much better job of summarizing that I did. If you don't want to waste your time reading my thread above, read his instead.

L
learn

Thanks Logophilius. That was very kind.

I have to do more prayers now because 1 of my sin is I'm proud on certain things and this is something that I have to guard myself until 1 day hopefully it will be gone.

R
rbanks

Where is the fear of God in those who are endorsing Harry Potter? Dear God in Heaven, what have we come to talking about good coming from evil? Woe, woe, woe, to them who call good evil and evil good. God is very clear about those people practicing such things, that they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The bible says to abstain from the very appearance of evil. We have people in line hours ahead of time to get another book by their idol (who is a good witch they say but still an abomination to God) Harry Potter and then the ungodly movies that entice our children to think that a good witch is ok when the bible clearly warns us against such practices.

We have so called Christians who don’t fear God enough to depart from evil. We have more and more people being right in their own eyes but still not departing from all wickedness. Yes they say, but look, look, look, at all the good in getting our children to read, it doesn’t matter that their not reading their bibles and having a love for God to shun all appearance of evil.

Lord save us from a lack of godly wisdom and a proper fear of God. It’s almost like some would say just as long as they are reading, if they get mislead and end up in hell at least they will know how to read (at least the Harry Potter books). I’m sad about all these children talking about Harry Potter who represents the kingdom of darkness instead of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ who is the King of Glory.

Oh how much we need genuine revival. We also need for people who call themselves Christians to really be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Brethren please don't endorse anything that God hates!!!

L
LogoPhilius

(scratches head, pondering his response to rbanks)

I would say you are correct rbanks, and I do not know you or your personal life, but the vehemenence of the response echo's of the idea of "zeal without knowledge." It is very fair to avoid Potter for it's appearance of evil, and I can live with that. Perhaps I should have in the past as well. I just hope that folks with the perspective that you are championing avoid ALL forms of entertainment including TV, movie and books that are not expressly Christian, perhaps including sports as well. If not, it is hypocrasy, for I don't see Potter as any different from most other forms of entertainment that have sin within them.

The response you gave has an appearance of godliness, and is attractive to me, and I would aspire to that, but honestly I just have a hard time seeing my life completely avoiding all forms of entertainment that are not expressly Christian. I have known only one or two who live this way, scratch that, only one, for I went to an NFL game with one of them in 2005 or so.

(sigh) I hope not to come off poorly, just sometimes the zealousness that we give as believers sometimes appears unrealistic to those of us who are very much still in this world, though hopefully not of the world.

H
HeartSong

Well, now you have met 2 people - but I suspect that there are many more.

In comparison to the wonder of our precious Lord Jesus, entertainment is no longer entertaining - it is boring and repulsive - it is the enemy in disguise trying to pull us away from an irreplaceable Treasure.

Even reading these posts brings horror to my soul - especially that one would feed such things to children.

H
HomeFree89

deleted

G
ginnyrose

There is something very appealing to ghost stories, fairy tales, etc. - it must be because it whets the imagination. But they are NOT harmless, even if they are entertaining.

May I ask those of you who see nothing wrong with it: how old are you?

Many years ago when our daughter was very young, perhaps 9 years old which means this would have been 29 years ago, I noticed she was checking out ghost story books from the public library. I told her to quit, but she didn't (I was not aware of it at the time).

Later, one night she came to our bedroom crying, saying she was hearing strange unexplainable sounds. Then I asked her if she was still reading ghost stories? She said she was. She finally believed what we were telling her and obeyed. She also told us how she saw 'little men' sitting on our range in the kitchen one evening after she awoke from napping on the sofa.

All of these manifestations quit - I forget what all we did to come to this point. BUT this stuff is NOT harmless. The Scriptures warn us about it and failure to do so will bring bondage and damn a person to hell unless there is repentance.

Why does a person want to read/see questionable lit/movies when there is a lot of other wholesome lit to read that is far above reproach? (And if you cannot find any, do your research and then go to eBay - you will be sure to find it there.) Blows my mind...

If you still question our cautions, test the spirits! Are you willing to do that?

ginnyrose

D
DreamTrekker

All literature and movies, unless they are documentaries, are fiction...makebelieve.

All forms of fictitious materiel then comes under your condemnation, as being unfit for someone who does not know the difference betwwen fact and fantasy, as I specified earlier.

I bought the Potter books to see why they were condemned, and having enjoyed them as both fiction, and well devised story telling, would not then have given to my 13 year old niece to read. She does not yet understand a clear distinction between fact and fiction. Of course, she doesn't read very much either, so I am torn between the difficulty of getting her to read at all.

But then I wouldn't give Black Beauty or Bambi to my niece either, lest her tender feelings be hurt by the dark subjects involved...like death, and pain, and evil.

Unfortunately, I can't read her any of the parables that Christ made up on the spot, because they dealt with unpleasant people, and showed cause and effect for wrong action...just as the Potter books do, but she cannot as yet distinguish between Christ being loving, and Christ showing tough love.

The Potter books also discuss childhood, family relationships, friendship, taking sides for right and wrong, learning discipline, being loved, consequences for wrong behavior...all set against a background that is obviously fiction.

The background given in the books is obviously impossible...unicorns, griffins, dragons, giants, house elves, and so forth, and oh, yes, the ability to fly on a broom should make that obvious to our technocentric children...if, and only if, they can tell the difference between fantasy and real life.

A child cannot always tell the difference between what happened as a fact in the Bible either, because the culture has changed so much since that time that it seemes divorced from reality to them.

We should not protect our children to the point that they cannot learn perspective, and still expect them to survive in our world.

Read the books...then read them out loud to your children, and teach them at the same time what is right and good in the tale, and what would be wrong if it did exist, and don't handicap your children to the point that they cannot understand the references that others will throw at them.

As Ginnyrose can tell from her own experience, her daughter read the books behind her back despite the prohibition.

It is much better to have it all up for constant discussion, and for us to prepare our children to survive despite the culture they are immersed in.

M
Miccah

DreamTrekker wrote:



Read the books...then read them out loud to your children, and teach them at the same time what is right and good in the tale, and what would be wrong if it did exist, and don't handicap your children to the point that they cannot understand the references that others will throw at them.


DreamTrekker,

Your opinions do not line up with scripture. If you feel it ok to teach your children witchcraft, you will need to answer to the Lord on that day.

Please reference scripture, any scripture... in the bible, that would allow someone to teach their children witchcraft and be in line with the Lord's teachings. You may not know this, but telling others to indirectly teach their children witchcraft is sin.

[u][b]Deuteronomy 18:9-11 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Avoid Wicked Customs[/b]

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

[u][b]2 Kings 17:16-18 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

So they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, made for themselves a molded image and two calves, made a wooden image and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. [b]And they caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and soothsaying, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD,[/b] to provoke Him to anger. Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.


Your telling people to do something that God hates.

Where is your fear of the Lord?

H
HomeFree89

I have a question for all the people who are at pro-Potter.

What if someone used the same arguments to read dirty novels? "Well, you know, I have to read this so I can show my sister what's wrong with it." or "Well, it's not real, it's all fictitious." What would you say to them? Is it ok to read those novels?

J
jordanamo

HomeFree89,

Depends on what you mean by "dirty" novels. If you mean romance/erotic novels, those are not in the same demographic (kids). Nonetheless, it's up to the individual to decide for him/herself if a certain book is "too dirty" for them or not. Certainly, when it's concerning kids, the parent has a responsibility to make sure they are not reading something that would be pornographic.

Re: your early post, "Did you read the whole article? The point really isn't about the Lavender Brigade..." -- No, I didn't finish it. He lost me when he made up a book in a series to make a critical point. It made the rest of the article pretty much pointless to even be worth bothering to read. Also, your initial comments in regards to the article were in tune with the fact that the "if the protagonist was homosexual, would it still be good?" Therefore, having your main comment on this article being nullified, in a critical look over the book in a thread such as this, I found it to contain no relevance worth discussing.

Jordan

L
LogoPhilius

I made a similar statement before, but it was lost beneath all my rambling, and I think it is true to the question that began the thread (for I note that most folks are assuming something without providing adequate evidence).

the question was something on the lines of "Does HP lead kids into witchcraft?" My simple answer would be no. My reason for this conviction is that the type of "magic" in the Potter Universe is not the same as withcraft/sorcery that exists in our universe. the Magic of Harry Potter is no more representative of wicca or sorcery than the way that most Westerners celebrate Christmas is Truely honoring the Christ child's birth.

So with that being said, I can still see a merit to the idea of avoiding Potter for other reasons noted in the thread. But does it lead kids into witchcraft? I'm sorry, but no. I've been lead into witchcraft as a kid, and Potter wouldn't have helped me get there.

M
MandM

I hope that this thread will help all of us wake up to the truth a little bit more.

D
DreamTrekker


Miccah wrote:
DreamTrekker wrote:


Read the books...then read them out loud to your children, and teach them at the same time what is right and good in the tale, and what would be wrong if it did exist, and don't handicap your children to the point that they cannot understand the references that others will throw at them.


DreamTrekker,

Your opinions do not line up with scripture. If you feel it ok to teach your children witchcraft, you will need to answer to the Lord on that day.

I would, if the Potter books taught witchcraft, which, having previous experience with the arcane, I know quite well they do not.

The Potter books are being damned by you simply because of the word 'witch' has been used, and as has the Halloween image of what witches are.

Harry Potter lives in a world that doesn't exist, and which children can tell doesn't exist, once they know the difference between fact and fiction. The 'witchcraft' involved is much more akin to wishing for something to happen if you say the right Latin words while wielding a magic wand in a make-believe world where half the humans are born with 'witch' powers that they can generally use before they can walk.

And if you noted what I said in my last post as you quoted it, I said to read the books, then read the books outloud to the children, and EXPLAIN what is fantasy and what is fact, and where a true parallel to our far less magical world exists, and where that would be wrong, as well as saying that it would be wrong.

Otherwise, the child will simply read the book in the library!

You cannot truly teach your children what is bad if you do not explain, in terms they can understand, what it is they must avoid, and make the lesson enjoyable.

I can think of no better way to teach a child what is bad than to talk about it with good and interesting examples.

Please reference scripture, any scripture... in the bible, that would allow someone to teach their children witchcraft and be in line with the Lord's teachings. You may not know this, but telling others to indirectly teach their children witchcraft is sin.

You are dragging the debate into the realm of silliness. Reading Harry Potter, and explaining what is fact, and what is fictional of the story you are reading as you go is hardly teaching a child witchcraft! In fact, it is doing the opposite, by enjoying a bit of make-believe and discussing what is wrong and what is right in any life.

All that is taught in the Bible about true witchcraft, sorcery, or divination is so scant that you would need to itemize and describe in detail what each of them is, in order to protect your children from the very influences that you fear, and frankly, unless you know a good deal about it, you would bore them to tears before you finished the topic.

Do you think that those of us who were once dragged into the occult were all pagans to begin with? I was lured into all the bad stuff years after I was baptised, and it was because no one told me the ins and outs of the bad stuff.

Your telling people to do something that God hates.

Where is your fear of the Lord?

Right where it has always been...in my heart. Unfortunately, fear without knowledge is little protection. Sorcery, divination, and whatnot were only meaningless words to my untaught mind, and I was not protected in any way by my Christianity from being drawn into it all.

I only got away from it all only because the Lord led me away from it, and unfortunately, that was after a great deal of damage was done.

Knowledge of the subject is necessary to steer clear of it, and since no one in the church teaches on the subject, our children are in danger, not from fairy tales, but from the people they will meet in school, and in life.

M
Miccah

DreamTrekker wrote:



I would, if the Potter books taught witchcraft, which, having previous experience with the arcane, I know quite well they do not.

You seriously believe that since you dabbled a little into witchcraft before, you have the authority to say what is witchcraft or not? Let me refer you to my authority...God's word.

The Potter books are being damned by you simply because of the word 'witch' has been used, and as has the Halloween image of what witches are.

No, they have damned themselves. They are being preached against by myself because they teach our children the very things that God hates.

That was a great assumption, but is inaccurate.

Harry Potter lives in a world that doesn't exist, and which children can tell doesn't exist, once they know the difference between fact and fiction. The 'witchcraft' involved is much more akin to wishing for something to happen if you say the right Latin words while wielding a magic wand in a make-believe world where half the humans are born with 'witch' powers that they can generally use before they can walk.

And this edified God how? This teaches our kids God's ways by teaching them the enemies gospel? I think not.

[u][b]1 Timothy 1:3-7 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

And if you noted what I said in my last post as you quoted it, I said to read the books, then read the books outloud to the children, and EXPLAIN what is fantasy and what is fact, and where a true parallel to our far less magical world exists, and where that would be wrong, as well as saying that it would be wrong.

I understand what you said, only that it cannot be justified. Where in the scripture does the Lord referencing doing such things as reading things that are unholy to children? Please, reference some sripture.

Otherwise, the child will simply read the book in the library!

This tells me that there is no parental control involved. If your children do this, there is no one to blame but yourself. We are called to train out children in the right ways, we are NOT called to let our children dabble in garbage. Children need to obey their parents as commanded by the Lord.

[u][b]Matthew 7:6 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

We should never go into a situation with our children and state that "well...they are going to do it anyways, so we might as well let them do it and then teach them the right way" attitude. Souls are lost this way, and it very well can be your children's Dreamtrekker.

You cannot truly teach your children what is bad if you do not explain, in terms they can understand, what it is they must avoid, and make the lesson enjoyable.

Teaching your children what is right is totally different then allowing them access to wickedness. By your analogy, someone should be able to pick up a Playboy magazine and look it over with thier children...as long as it is explained why they should avoid it in terms that they understand. This is sillyness.

I can think of no better way to teach a child what is bad than to talk about it with good and interesting examples.

Here is a great example. The Bible. Why not focus on the word of the Lord over the words of men. What will your children miss if they focus and meditate on the word of God specifically?

Please reference scripture, any scripture... in the bible, that would allow someone to teach their children witchcraft and be in line with the Lord's teachings. You may not know this, but telling others to indirectly teach their children witchcraft is sin.

You are dragging the debate into the realm of silliness. Reading Harry Potter, and explaining what is fact, and what is fictional of the story you are reading as you go is hardly teaching a child witchcraft! In fact, it is doing the opposite, by enjoying a bit of make-believe and discussing what is wrong and what is right in any life.

Referencing scripture is silly? Edifying the Lord is silly? How does make believe bring children closer to the Lord and His ways? It doesn't.

All that is taught in the Bible about true witchcraft, sorcery, or divination is so scant that you would need to itemize and describe in detail what each of them is, in order to protect your children from the very influences that you fear, and frankly, unless you know a good deal about it, you would bore them to tears before you finished the topic.

Please Dreamtrekker. Don't make your lack of zeal for the Word and a child's attention span the reason that you refuse to teach truth. So your children are bored by the Word? Tough. They are children, and it is our job as parents to ensure that they are brought up in holiness. Cater to the Lord and not to a child's immaturity and inability to listen.

Again, this goes back to teaching our children the right ways...a common theme I am talking about.

Do you think that those of us who were once dragged into the occult were all pagans to begin with? I was lured into all the bad stuff years after I was baptised, and it was because no one told me the ins and outs of the bad stuff.

Dreamtrekker, no one needs to tell you anything. Read the word of the Lord and you will get all the ins and outs that are needed.

Right where it has always been...in my heart. Unfortunately, fear without knowledge is little protection. Sorcery, divination, and whatnot were only meaningless words to my untaught mind, and I was not protected in any way by my Christianity from being drawn into it all.

That is an entirely different issue. I am sorry that you were lead astray and that a true believer was not there to disciple you.

I only got away from it all only because the Lord led me away from it, and unfortunately, that was after a great deal of damage was done.

Praise God for His mercy.

Knowledge of the subject is necessary to steer clear of it, and since no one in the church teaches on the subject, our children are in danger, not from fairy tales, but from the people they will meet in school, and in life.

Then pull them out of school and homeschool them. Then get them away from those that would take them into wickedness and teach them God's ways.

Children are not some experiment to be put in a pot and brewed together. They are a gift from the Lord. Instead of focusing on other children and what they believe, try focusing on the teachings of the Lord only. Teach them His ways and they will walk in His ways.

L
Limey153

In an attempt to try and answer some of these questions regarding links to Harry Potter and witchcraft may I direct folk to this website
[url=http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/harrypotterarticle.htm]HARRY POTTER[/url]

I must confess that I have to refer to the website since I have never read the books myself and frankly I NEVER will!!
If after reading the article on this website there are folk here who still do not acknowledge that there is a very real link between Harry Potter and genuine witchcraft then surely they are blind!
The article on this site concerning the Thunderbolt on Harry Potters forehead is particularly compelling. I very much recommend reading it.

S
sermonindex

It never ceases to amaze me that the argument over the Harry Potter books still comes up from time to time.

Scripture is pretty clear on this subject. You can define witch craft any way you want to, the fact is that the power described in these books is not the power that comes from God. The spiritual coin only has two sides... so if it doesnt come from God, then it is describing powers that come from Satan. No matter how nice the power may appear to be.

But my question is this... if you're a Christian why would you want to read those books anyway? If you haven't read you Bible to the point where you know it inside and out, why are you wasting time reading Harry Potter?

I find as I mature in the Lord, and grow in the Lord, I cant help but spend more and more time in His Word. I love His Word. It's been a long time since I've read anything else.

So I have to wonder... what does it mean when Christians defend Harry Potter as wonderful literature (and it may be!)? I just wonder, wouldnt your time be better spent studying and learning God's Word?

Be honest... do you spend as much time in His Word as you do reading novels? Watching TV? Listening to your iPod? (I just know someone will try and convince me that they do)

I'm just saying...

Krispy

H
HomeFree89

Your'e right on with this one, Miccah!

DreamTrekker,

We really just need to look at God's Word about HP. It can't be about what you or I thinks. You've had some experiences with witchcraft and the occult and don't think HP will introduce kids to real magic. Well, I've read many things by people who were also into the occult and they say it will. Who are we to believe?

It all must boil down to what God's Word says.

Jordan

L
learn

Look, why don't the people who want their children to read Harry Potter pray to God to ask what is God's will.

You can argue all in human viewpoints (eg: teaching children what the book is all about after letting them read, then letting them read behind your back and so do not have the chance to teach them what's right and wrong in the book). However, God's viewpoint may be totally different from your thinking.

There are many ways to teach children about Christianity, Harry Potter may be 1 way but it may not necessarily be God's way. The different viewpoints both pro (from human viewpoints) and cons (from scriptures for example) have been listed here, now please pray. Whenever in doubt as to God's will or you think that you are correct when others have said otherwise, ask God. Others or you yourself may be wrong, but God is not.

To say Harry Potter does not 'mention' witchcraft etc is not true. It may be make believe witchcraft and have a good theme, however, it doesn't mean that it does not 'open one up to be more interested in real withcraft or magic ultimately'). Parts of Harry Potter's books and shows are very dark--I've read and seen them.


I've also previously had 'some dabblings with the fortune telling' and although it did show me that the spirit world was more likely to be real and hence indirectly there's a greater chance that God exist and ultimately coming to God, I'm sure that God could have used many other better means to show me that He is real without going through that route. To use the excuse that by this dabbling in it will help me in knowing God exist is a poor statement unless it is really God's will.

And if one really wants to argue in terms of 'human viewpoint', the positive viewpoints has been mentioned. Some negative viewpoint has been mentioned by Philiplogus also. I can add to it.

'Human viewpoints against Harry Potter'
1) Yes, we can tell children that its fiction, but some children can still be influenced negatively by it. Haven't we heard of cases where adults start believing and acting out as if make believe movies/sitcoms as real and act on it even when its so obvious. If adults can do it, so can some of the children.


2) Also, even though its 'make believe', the children can still have nightmares about it. I know I have nightmares as adults when seeing scary movies in the past.

3) As to children reading behind our back because we would not let them, yes some will do it. However, whether they do it or not depends a lot on how one brings up their children and their influnece over their children versus peer (other children)influence

4) I have to say much to my chagrin, I am pretty interested in Todd Bentley as there's something 'attractive and dark' to it. However, I do not need to go and attend his sermon/revival to learn and know that he is wrong. Knowing enough of the bible and seeing/hearing some of the things about it is enough to steer me away from him

Bottom line there are both pros and cons (in terms of human reasoning) as to seeing/reading Harry Potter. But the right thing is seeking what God's viewpoint is. That's why I suggest go pray and wait for God's answer. And if God's answer happen to be in agreement with yours on seeing Harry Potter (then do it) but if it's not, then obey even if your child rebel. Ultimately God has the best plan for us (or are we as humans going to say that we know better than God and start presenting our viewpoints).

Up till now, I have yet to hear those that says reading Harry Potter is ok is what God wants after seeking His will through prayers (and not human viewpoint). On the other hand, those that are against at least have been able to quote some scripture). How do you expect somebody who wants to follow God to believe that reading Harry Potter is ok from God's viewpoint then? Even if somebody says that yes, this is what God says its ok after praying, I will still doubt how true it is (as this is the internet and we do not really know each other), I rather pray myself and hear what God has to say (yes or no)

R
rbanks

DreamTrekker you stated that you were in witchcraft before and the Lord led you away from it.

Do you realize that you were involved in something God hates because it is of Satan? Do you realized if God does not deliver us from this practice we will spend eternity in Hell? Does this not place the fear of God in your life because of His mercy toward you? How can you not hate this or anything related to it? How can you enjoy reading this to your children? I pray you are not deceiving yourself and putting your child in harms way! The bible says for us to abstain from the very appearance of evil, and you know this is evil.

But if you cannot hear the godly counsel of others and think that it is silly, then I'm afraid you do not have the fear of God. The fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom and no fear of God, my neighbor, is the sorrow of this world!

D
DreamTrekker

An interesting demonstration of reaction of differing viewpoints.

Unfortunately, the world I live in cannot be entirely divorced from the reality of those around me, and there are few places left where this can be done, or done with an appropriate effect.

It is best to describe and warn those we care about what it is that they can expect to find in the world they must live within, and simply putting everything outside the Bible under the topic of 'Evil' does nothing to enable a child to survive the college education they will need, and the people they will be interacting with.

Putting blinders on a child only lasts until they must leave your home, and not even cults can completely wall off the God-given trait of curiousity.

I admire your zeal, but your common sense is lacking.

L
Limey153

Dreamtrekker wrote

It is best to describe and warn those we care about what it is that they can expect to find in the world they must live within, and simply putting everything outside the Bible under the topic of 'Evil' does nothing to enable a child to survive the college education they will need, and the people they will be interacting with.

Whilst this may be true it is no reason to partake in those things. It is possible to educate others of evil without having to partake in that evil ourselves. I have never done drugs, however I would not hesitate to say that it is wrong. I could also explain why it is wrong to those around me, though I have never tried it myself.
I don't have to put my hand in the fire to know that it will burn me!

S
sermonindex

Putting blinders on a child only lasts until they must leave your home, and not even cults can completely wall off the God-given trait of curiousity.

So after we buy our kids the entire HP series, are you suggesting we also buy them a 6-pack of beer and a pack of cigs? Maybe score some pot or crack for them too... oh, and rent some porn?

I know that I'm being extreme, but scripture has a word for what you are suggesting: [b]foolishness[/b].

Nowhere in scripture do we see any suggestion whatsoever that we purposely expose our children to evil for the sake of teaching them to avoid it. What your suggesting is merely your man-based opinion, and as such needs to be rejected. We need to search the Word of God for what the truth of the matter is... and the Word of God says to FLEE evil, and even avoid the mere appearance of evil. You'll not find anything in there suggesting we expose our children to evil.

Krispy

F
Fuegodedios

Well I will say this. If you think Harry Potter and other books of the same sort are harmless then Satan has wielded one of his most successful devices against you. For we know that he is the master deceiver and he has an uncanny ability to make something sinful and foul look like a pot of gold.

2 Corninthians 11:14
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

God is against Witchcraft and is still mighty to save anyone trap within its foul talons.

Look at God who is immutable. Lets get his perspective on witchcraft

Deut 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Deut 18:14
For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

2 chronicles 33:6
He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

If a Christian who has God living in him according to 1 corinthinas 6:19 and Philippians 2:13 is to engage in witchcraft I wonder why these new born christains in the book of act reacted the way they did towards their witchcraft and books dealing with it.

Acts 19:17-19
This became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified.

18Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices.

19And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

20So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.

M
Miccah

DreamTrekker wrote:



I admire your zeal, but your common sense is lacking.


[u][b]1 Corinthians 1:18 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[u][b]1 Peter 4:3-6 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

In regards to me lacking common sense... You've done me a a great honor in counting me as someone not in touch with the world. Only through Him am I able to glorify Him. Through His sufferings, the Father is glorified.


[u][b]2 Samuel 6:22 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor.”


[u][b]Galatians 6:14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.


All my chips are in DreamTrekker. I am totally sold out on Christ. May He recieve His glory.

May the Lord bless you DreamTrekker.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 42 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate