Tongues

know if anyone has had a post already on tongues.

I was wondering what everyones thoughts were about wether or not tongues still happen today or not.

I for one do not believe the Lord still uses the gift today. I will explain my view latter in this thread. Right now I was just wondering who thought what on the topic.

Yes. It is for today. It is said that the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is to your children, and your children's children in Acts 2:39.

Acts 2:4;10:44-46;19:1-7

There is no evidence that it is not for today. A better explanation is that the "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is for today. The only scripture that one would have a crutch for is 1 Corinthians 13:8

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

This, however, is speaking of the perfect age to come. Read down a little further in verse 9 and 10.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when that which is PERFECT is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

For this verse to come remotely close to being justification for belief that tongues are done away with for TODAY, the following things would have to occur:

1. Prophecies shall fail..
2.Knowledge has vanished away.

Now, considering you are not Pentecostal/Charismatic, I am sure that you believe that prophecy is not for today. However, knowledge has obviously NOT vanished away. When the perfect age comes, however, we will not need knowledge, prophecies, or tongues, because we will be in a perfect state. Paul himself said in in 1 Corinthians 14:5 that he wants everyone to speak in tongues (To be Baptized with the Holy Spirit). When you were saved, you were Baptized into Christ. Christ then, baptizes you into the Holy Spirit, if you are willing to accept the gift.

Paul himself said in in 1 Corinthians 14:5 that he wants everyone to speak in tongues (To be Baptized with the Holy Spirit).

Incidentally, the man who coined the doctrine of tongues as the [i]uniform initial evidence[/i] of being filled with the Spirit is the same man that proposed the British and American peoples were part of the "10 lost tribes" of Israel.

Every time someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts they DID speak in tongues. The only time it was not recorded was in chapter 9. However, it didn't need recorded! The evidence is already backed up by scripture after scripture.
After Saul's conversion on the Damascus Road, a disciple named Ananias was sent that Saul might receive his sight and "be filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 9:17). The restoration of sight is described, but nothing further is said in Acts 9 about Saul's being filled with the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 14:18, however, Paul testified, "I speak with tongues more than ye all." Since Paul began speaking with tongues at some time, it is logical to assume he began when he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. This would be in perfect harmony with those events in which the details of the baptism in the Spirit are given.

Of the five instances in Acts which recount the experience of believers being baptized in the Spirit, three supply details. Speaking in tongues is the only one that occurs each time (Acts 2, 10, 19). In the Acts 10 account, tongues is specifically mentioned as proof that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues" (Acts 10:45, 46). In the two cases where details are not supplied, circumstances strongly imply that speaking with other tongues accompanied the experience. In Acts 8 Simon saw something ( saw them speak in tongues) that prompted him to offer money for the power to impart such a gift.

I would also like to point out that tongues as the initial evidence was not "coined" by any man. It gives evidence of such in the Word of God.

As far as history of past revivals, John Wesley has reported people speaking in tongues in his meetings. However, I am not interested so much in history, as much as I am what the Word of God says.

Every time someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts they DID speak in tongues. The only time it was not recorded was in chapter 9.

Do you really believe that no man had experienced the genuine Spirit Baptism until 1901 in Topeka, Kansas?

I have no doubt that God did not use these preachers who never spoke in tongues.

I believe they were filled with the Holy Spirit for God to use them the way he did.

It is also very clear from the book of acts that the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was the speaking in tongues.

People can deny it but they can never prove otherwise. The evidence is clear and the only ones who will try and prove otherwise are only those who have never experienced it.

I believe it was Smith Wigglesworth who promise a reward to any one who could prove a genuine baptism in the Holy Ghost without the evidence of speaking in tonques.

But I am also one who believes that many charismatics who have learn how to say a few words that they don't understand and think they have it don't really have the experience.

The real baptism in the Holy Ghost is powerful and God takes complete control and you are amazed at what God did through and in you and there is never a doubt about it because it is an awesome experience.

PaulWest, I just edited my previous post. I have just answered your questions in it.

I have just answered your questions in it.

How much evidence do you need?? I still have not seen where you have scripturally proven your point. I would be interested to know your SCRIPTURAL point of view, and not the historical point of view. Actually, I see no Scripture quoted in all of your posts.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. If the Apostles were given the gift of tongues, then we too are available to the same gifts.

I still have not seen where you have scripturally proven your point. I would be interested to know your SCRIPTURAL point of view, and not the historical point of view.

Scripture is blatantly inconclusive on this doctrine, this is obvious, and the fact of it is substantiated by church history which I further appeal to to make my point. In your case, church history repudiates your stance and only proves your error from which the scripures you appeal to never conclusively supported in the first place.

I still see no scripture. I choose to make the Word of God the authority. This is just willful ignorance. Scripture plainly shows that one speaks in tongues when Baptized with the Spirit. Scripture shows tongues as the evidence 3 TIMES. That looks like a majority more than a minority. It seems that you look to the history of the church more than you do what the Word says. God is continuously shedding more light on his Scripture. The early church fathers were used by God mightily, but they were also walking in all the light they knew at that time. Many DID speak in tongues if you study church revival meetings in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds.

I was wondering what everyones thoughts were about wether or not tongues still happen today or not.

I see lots of people using tongues. Too bad that most don't know how to control it.

I've learned that it's better to control the tongue I've got rather than seek to speak in other tongues.

(By the way, I say this while I also believe that God still gives this gift.)

This is just willful ignorance. Scripture plainly shows that one speaks in tongues when Baptized with the Spirit. Scripture shows tongues as the evidence 3 TIMES. That looks like a majority more than a minority.

This is just willful ignorance

At least now you're not saying someone spoke in tongues on each occasion like you did at the onset.

Yes, I do believe that EVERY person did speak in tongues. Even if the Scripture does not say on those two incidents in Acts, the evidence IS there in other verses, so it doesn't have to say.

This is just willful ignorance

That is shameful statement, for you do not know me, or how much I have studied this topic. I do not agree with your convictions, that is all.

This is not meant to sound harsh, but I think that this subject is very clear.

There are some excellent teachings on the subject by Zac Poonen, Finney, Moody, Murray, Keith Daniel, Nee.

I'm not necessarily concerned with what these men say on the subject. This is definitely not to say that these men are not men of God. I am rather saying that I base my beliefs on the Word of God, not on what history or preachers tell me.

I am rather saying that I base my beliefs on the Word of God, not on what history or preachers tell me.

What is so hard to understand about this? We know for a fact there have been men mightily used by God in the miraculous, the supernatural, explosive soul winning and manifestations unprecedented, men through whom the Holy Spirit perfomed manifold signs and wonders with all the evidences of a genuine Spirit-Baptized ministry and who never once spoke in a tongue, or wrote of speaking at tongues at their filling (yet they could all write of the day when they were Spirit-Baptized). Might this explain why Scripture is curiously silent in certain places...places where you are grasping at straws to make it fit a universal doctrine that was never delineated in scripture?

Dear brother, there are weightier things at hand here, and God knew the controversy tongues would generate in the 20th century. I had a heart-to-heart with my Pastor earlier this year over this very topic (I relinquished my credentials back to the AG over this very thing, not to mention the doctrine on compulsory tithing and the ordination of female pastors). Tithing and consenting to tongues as the initial are non-negotiable tenants. I don't want to go back over it here; the poster of this thread inquired about tongues and he/she deserved to hear the other side of a challenge.

Thank you for this discussion, thank you for your grace and not going very heavy with the assumptions (you could have went heavier, and I thank you for personal restraint). These topics can really encite feelings, emotions, flesh. I think I'm finished here and I wish you a very profitable stay at SI.

The Lord bless you,

Brother Paul

Bless you, Paul...I enjoyed the discussion as well.

I found a very good bible study online that addresses many of these questions on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the many questions concerning tongues being the initial evidence.

Below is the website that the bible study is on, as well as a excerpt from the bible study.

In His Love,
Mike

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/holy-spirit-baptism.htm

Evidences of Holy Spirit Baptism

In the book of Acts, the most common sign of Holy Spirit baptism was the expression of unknown tongues. "They were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4; also see Mark 16:17; Acts 10:44-48, 19:6). Why was the sign of tongues the most common evidence of Holy Spirit baptism? Well, probably because a person's tongue is the most unruly member of the body (see James 3:2-10), so when the tongue is brought under the inspiration and influence of the Holy Spirit, there can be no doubt that the whole person has been immersed in the Holy Spirit.

Some churches teach that speaking in tongues is the sole evidence of being filled with the Spirit, but this is not altogether true. The biblical examples indicate that in addition to tongues, evidences of being filled with the Spirit include prophecy (Luke 1:41, Acts 19:6), boldness (Acts 4:31), miraculous healings (Acts 5:15-16), spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:19), wisdom (Acts 6:3), faith (Acts 6:8), and joy (Acts 13:52). Tongues were the common sign, but it was not recorded in every instance (see Acts 8:15-17 and
9:17-19). Also, some believers received the Holy Spirit infilling after water baptism (see Acts 10:5-6); others received it before water baptism (see Acts 10:44-48). Man often likes to put God in a box and predict the move of God's Spirit with restrictive formulas, but the Holy Spirit works best with repentant, humble hearts that are yielded to Him and are willing to go with the flow. Like a heavenly wind, the Spirit comes and goes in perfect agreement with the will of the Father (see John 3:8).

Paul taught that the sign of tongues was meant for prayer and personal edification, for building up the Body of Christ, and as a sign to unbelievers (see I Corinthians 12:4-11, 14:4-5,22). Paul said, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" and "Wherefore, brethren, covet [desire] to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues" (I Corinthians
14:18,39). Although tongues are beneficial, speaking in tongues should not be the focus of Holy Spirit baptism but rather fully yielding oneself in worship to Jesus. A language of the Spirit will often come spontaneously when the heart is so full of the Spirit that common words are insufficient for expression. "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26). The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah experienced this kind of fullness, like a fire within: "But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay" (Jeremiah 20:9). What did Jeremiah do? He prophesied with boldness to the people of Judah as the Spirit gave him the words to say.

The apostle Paul said that every member in the Body of Christ is necessary, and not all will speak in tongues. "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (I Corinthians 12:30). There are, in fact, nine gifts or manifestations of the Spirit and "diverse tongues" is just one of them. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is
given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will" (I Corinthians 12:7-11). Each of these nine gifts is a different manifestation of the same Spirit.

Every believer has at least one spiritual gift, distributed by God as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:11). The gifts are given to edify the Body of Christ in love. "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love"
(Ephesians 4:16). A believer must exercise faith in using his or her gift, because the gifts are initially undeveloped and must be exercised to grow and become fully mature over time. The goal, however, is not for us to be self-focused on our spiritual gifts, but to honor Jesus Christ and walk in His footsteps of humility and servanthood.

Conclusion

The oil of the Holy Spirit consecrates us and lights our spiritual lamps, while the fire of the Holy Spirit purges sin (a process called sanctification) and ignites a flame of passion (love for Jesus) in our hearts. As believers in Christ, we are responsible for keeping our vessels pure and the oil full like the five wise virgins in Jesus' parable (see Matthew 25:4) so that the light of Christ may shine brightly within us (see Matthew 5:14-16).

Those of you who have been filled with the Holy Spirit in the past but have let the oil run out of your spiritual lamps, we encourage you to go to the Lord and ask for a fresh infilling of the Spirit. The Bible says, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip" (Hebrews 2:1). The Greek wording of this verse could be translated "lest at any time we should run out as leaking vessels."

You, dearly beloved ones in Christ, are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Your spiritual light is completely dependent upon the oil and flame of the Spirit of God. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (II Corinthians 4:6-7).
This Christian Bible teaching was written by David Holt Boshart, Jr. and his wife Shari Boshart.

Hi Pritybetta,

Here's a link for an awesome article on speaking in tongues.

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07]The Truth About Speaking in Tongues by Zac Poonen[/url]

Jordan

An interesting explanation for the three (perhaps 4)occurences of tongues accompanying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the unity of the church.

"2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." the Jews

"8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (the commentator believes they occurred here as well, though unrecorded)the Samaritans

"10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." the Gentiles

"19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." followers of John

Eph. 4:3 "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Reading this chapter and thinking of Jesus' prayer in John 17:21, "that they all may be one"...perhaps it deserves consideration.

I Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (a theme of unity keeps popping up doesn't it?)

Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit and we all who are in Christ have had this baptism.

I Cor.12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The answer to this rhetorical question is no...not all speak in tongues.

I appreciate the mentioning of the baptism in Acts as the baptising into the body of Christ. Is this not what the whole of Scripture necessitates? We are not commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but rather to be filled with the Holy Spirit...which as you may know is a continuous thing (be ye being filled). We have received the seal of the promised Holy Spirit and become partakers of the divine nature. As such we cannot have anymore than we have already. The stipulation that the command in Eph.5:18 makes is that we must be filled many times in life willingly yielding to Him. Romans 8 and Gal. 5 concur with this...that we must choose that which pleases the Spirit so that He can pruduce His fruit. Our beloved Lord makes this apparent also in John 15...we must abide in Him for Him to produce His fruit.

I do believe there can be a crisis in a followers life where the old man is severely crippled so that he lives a fuller life in Christ (I would use Jacob as an example) Nonetheless we must still die daily.

I am looking forward to that time in my life.

I Cor.12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The answer to this rhetorical question is no...not all speak in tongues.

This verse is concerning the "gift of tongues". These gifts were given to edify the church. Even though someone is baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, they do not necessarily have the "gift of tongues" which is used in the church to give a message from the Lord. Giving a message in the church, and your personal prayer language are very different.

We are not commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but rather to be filled with the Holy Spirit...which as you may know is a continuous thing (be ye being filled)..

The apostles were definately commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Notice in Acts 1 that the Lord commanded the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem to wait for the Promise. They were not to preach or teach until they received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

As such we cannot have anymore than we have already.

This statement is a little tricky. There is always more that the Lord can give to us. As far as a newly saved person, you have many things that you can receive from the Lord. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one of many. Paul asked in Acts 19:2, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

hi Logan,

That is a good observation about a possible difference in the gift and the display shown by the ones 1st baptized in the Spirit. We can agree that the tongues in Acts 2 were known languages of course. In fact, it fulfilled the the following quoted in I Cor. 14 vs 21

"21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord."

It appears to me that the event in Acts 2 and the gift have the same purpose considering the following verses:

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

The following verse would appear to contadict your statement that tongues is for the edification of the church.

"4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

I don't see any evidence concerning a personal prayer language though. 14:22 states the purpose for tongues is as a sign to unbelievers. I imagine someone is thinking about 13:1

" 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." Paul also said in the same context that even if he were to "surrender my body to the flames". We know that he did not give his body to be burned. It all has to be seen together in the same light- as hypothetical language. Well...its family time so I must get back to this later. I was looking at 14:2 next. I will answer the other two points you made, Logan, tomorrow if the Lord lets me.

Thanks for "sparring" with me. Its good for me, I hope its good for you. Godspeed and good night.

In 1 Corinthinas 12, the apostle Paul is instructing the Corinthian believers on the gifts of the Spirit. All of the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ. This includes the gift of tongues. Paul does say that this gift of tongues should not be exercised in the Church unless there is someone who has the gift of the interpretation of tongues. Paul did not discourage the personal praying in tongues between the believer and God. He said that he himself prayed in tongues, and that when we pray in tongues to God we are edifying ourselves. This is also confimed by the scripture in Jude 1:20. ("Building up yoursleves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost")

First off, the tongues were not an unknown language, they were known languages but unknown to the one speaking them. I also believe that when the Bible speaks of and unknown tongue it is speaking of a language that is unknown to those listening, not unknown to any man. The gift of tongues from the Lord is what I believe to be known tongues but it is unknown to the person it is given to, he did not learn the language beforehand. I do not believe the Lord grants that gift anymore.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Here we see that the multitude that heard them speaking was hearing them speak in their own tongue and not some unknown tongue that no one knows except the Lord himself.

Here is another passage in Acts that states that someone spoke in tongues:

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Here it does not say that the ones of the circumcision spoke in tongues but only the Gentiles who also was given the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those of the circumcision knew the Gentiles were given the Holy Ghost because they understood that they were magnifying God, thus letting us know that the tongues was their own language.

The Third time tongues is mentioned in Acts nothing was written to say wether or not it was an unknown tongue. However, we know that the two times before it is not an unknown tongue but rather unknown to the ones speaking it.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

In 1Cor. 12 Paul is telling us what gifts there are that is given. One of those gifts is tongues, but not the 'unknown' tongue, he says "divers kinds of tongues", meaning different languages. He also explains that it is given to 'some' not all.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Where most people think tongues is a language that is not known by any man is in 1Co 13:1 where Paul says he speaks with the tongues of men and of angels. The word 'angels' is also translated as 'messengers', this would indicate he speaks with many languages as messengers do. Meaning he did not speak an unknown language but rather many known languages and was able to do so because the Lord has granted him that gift, he did not learn them.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Prophecies here is talking about someone professing to what the Lord has taught. When someone teaches the Bible, they are professing. When these verses were written, the Bible was not availible for full professing of the Word, so when someone did prophecy they were doing it in part there for it failed because they could not prove it. Also, knowledge(knowledge of the Word) was given by the Lord piece by piece and directly from the Lord. The Bible was not available to them in order to find out so the Lord had to give them the knowledge. Once the Bible was written, the Lord stopped giving the gift, there for it vanished away. Likewise, the gift of tongues ceased when the Bible was written.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
__________
Pritybetta

"The gift of tongues from the Lord is what I believe to be known tongues but it is unknown to the person it is given to, he did not learn the language beforehand. I do not believe the Lord grants that gift anymore." (pritybeta)

Could you please show me in the Word scripture that backs up your belief that the Lord does not grant the gift of tongues any more?

"As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God." (pritybetta)

This is a very dangerous assumption to make that a gift from God as stated in 1 Cor. 12 which has never been taken away from the church is either faked or is of the devil. Yes there are counterfeit tongues. The devil counterfeits that which is true, but all of gits of the Spirit are for today, and are for the church. The Holy Spirit has also given us discernment and we have the Word so that we will know what is from God and what is of the enemy.

As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God." (pritybetta)

That is also boarderline blasphemy.

prettybetta wrote:

Quote:

"""
If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible."""

I agree with everything you say except "that which is prefect comes". We know that there is only One that is perfect. We know that anything we have, even in the gifts of the Spirit are in part, because the Spirit has to work through our soul-mind, which is being made perfect by the Word of God Himself and the teaching of the Holy Spirit our Comforter and Teacher. "That which is Perfect is come", is the Spirit of Christ that we are rebirthed with, for our spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, which scripture makes clear, "if we don't have the Spirit of Christ in us we are none of His". Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

((((Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.))))

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is, "that which comes is perfect comes". For our spirit is perfect, made perfect by the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us. The soul-mind is being conformed to this image, and the body has been quickened to contain this mystery that Paul speaks of in all his writings, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

This formula is in: Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are totally saved in Spirit because it is the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us, which is perfect. We are being saved in our soul-mind by the renewing to the Mind of Christ. We will be saved in body on the day of resurrection of the Body of Christ, His Church.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

The teaching is pertaining to all that Paul taught the Corinthians; 2 Corinthians 1:17-24 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

It was not Paul's yes or no, but the Lord's Yes.

"By faith we stand", which is in that which is Perfect, even Jesus Christ who is our Life, our Word, our Righteousness and our all in all.

So, the Word is Perfect which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", The Spirit is perfect and He is that which has come in our rebirthed spirit, Satan out, Christ in, our new creature status, which is now, "son's of God", in our standing before God Perfect in Christ, being made perfect in our soul-minds by the Christ that is in us and the sealed perfection of the Holy Spirit that teaches us these truths, and will be made perfect, when we receive that completion of our salvation, our new heavenly bodies, just like His.

That which is Perfect is the Word, who is Christ and He is come in the body of this clay pot we live in, which contains this treasure, even that perfection, Jesus Christ. Amen

Is He come?

Praise God, Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Our standing before God, even as He is in this world, so are we.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi pritybetta,

You have stated the following.

"In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God".
(quote)

First of all you don’t know what you are saying here about making the bible more perfect than Jesus Himself. When Jesus (who will bring perfection) comes sister we will not know in part any more because we (one’s truly born of God)will be like Him for we will see Him as He is and will not need the gifts any more because we will be in perfect Love.

I must say that I do not agree with all the charismatics on TV and elsewhere because of so many of their incorrect teachings. I believe because of a lot of confusing going on in many of the tongues movement, is the main reason you have stated what you have, and come to believe what you have said concerning tongues. I do pray that God will forgive you and open your eyes to the truth.

Even though what you have said is very condemning to the body of Christ who has received this gift from Christ, you have not offended me at all for your lack of understanding.

Your lack of understanding is evident and unless God opens your eyes to the truth you will continue to shut yourself off from many in the body of Christ.

There is an 86 year old man presently at this time going to places where few people would ever go. He is filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking tongues just like the bible says. He started a Pentecostal school in Russia in 1992 and now that school is in over 160 countries. He has been to Iraq and many other dangerous places.

I don’t know if you know it or not but in the underground church in China there are many more Christians than there is in the USA. There is multi- millions of Christians in China and other places in the world that are being persecuted for their belief. While many in America are living comfortably, they are being tortured and persecuted for Jesus Christ. There are millions in the body of Christ who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

On July 21st 2006, I had been praying and seeking the Lord for several days about some people in our church who were sick and one spirit filled brother had recently died at 39 Years old. I just wanted to get closer to God and wanted God to use me. It was between 11 and 12 that night when I knelt down to pray. I remember so vividly the very words I was saying to God before it happened.

I was on my knees praying - Father I come to thee in the only name I know how to come, in the name of Jesus Christ your Son and I don’t come because I’ve been a good boy but on the ground of the blood of Jesus. That was the last thing I remember saying as I looked back on what had happened. All of a sudden I found myself standing with my hands stretched out as far as I could and I was hollering so loud, and a thought came to me-Lord I’m going to wake everybody up hollering like this. The next thing I look down at my feet and legs and they were moving at a rapid rate of speed and the next though I had was to listen to myself and I was speaking fluently in a Language that wasn’t English and I can’t tell you what I said only God knows. I had the most awesome feeling I have ever had in my Life.

There is a lot more I could tell you and a lot has happened since then but I have never doubted that there is a baptism (infilling/running over of the Holy Sprit) of God with the evidence of speaking in another language.

The only people who can talk like you have is the people who have never experienced it and frankly ignorant to the ways of God. Sister God is not limited in others because of your understanding, maybe in you if you refuse to believe His word and enjoy your own understanding better than His. I could say more but maybe others who have experience the evidence of tongues can say something more.

I only hope you don’t leave this world judging what God has done in people’s lives as being of the devil. May God help you!

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Blessings in the powerful name of Jesus.

The apostles were definately commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Notice in Acts 1 that the Lord commanded the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem to wait for the Promise. They were not to preach or teach until they received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit

Yes they were.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The promised Holy Spirit had not come yet. That is not the case with us. We are not instructed in any epistle to seek a baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are instructed to be filled with the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, to walk according to the Spirit.

Eph.4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We are sealed at the new birth, correct?..as well as the following?

Rom. 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Gal. 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through Christ.

Look at what it says to the carnal Corinthians:

1 Cor.6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

We must start with the Word and then try to understand our experience rather than taking our experience to scripture to interpret it.

the scripture says there is one baptism...just one (i quoted this previously )Romans goes on to deal with this baptism also:

Rom.6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This statement is a little tricky. There is always more that the Lord can give to us. As far as a newly saved person, you have many things that you can receive from the Lord. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one of many. Paul asked in Acts 19:2, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

Neither did the old testament saints have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but they believed and will be in heaven. I agree there is always more the Lord can give us, but concerning the indwelling Holy Spirit the question is how much He has of you.

He said that he himself prayed in tongues, and that when we pray in tongues to God we are edifying ourselves.

Did he say "praying" or speaking? That would be the distinction in our disagreement. I believe tongues was a sign to unbelievers as the verse I quoted earlier stated.

Building up yoursleves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost)

I don't agree with the interpretation that praying in the Holy Ghost or praying in the spirit is praying in tongues...or perhaps you are just saying that its OK to edify yourself by using that verse?

I have not completed my study of tongues, so there are some things left for me before discussing further.

Have you noticed that he refers to a tongue and also to tongues? One interpretation is that tongue is used for the ecstatic speech that the pagans used picked up by some in the church...while tongues refers to languages like the ones used in Acts at Pentecost.

Seperately: I believe that much is missed, misunderstood and misinterpretted when we don't take a close look and then when we find something that could be a deeper crack that needs to be looked into it is passed over. Experience cannot be the starting point either. In respect for you all, I dare not assume that you are wrong...but I cannot say that you are correct on this matter of praying in tongues.

Its not an important matter to me, thats why I've taken so many years to deal with it...it may take many more.

Zionshield wrote:

The promised Holy Spirit had not come yet. That is not the case with us. We are not instructed in any epistle to seek a baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are instructed to be filled with the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, to walk according to the Spirit.

Hey brother I enjoy reading your posts and would also like to comment on the one baptism that eph. 4 mentions.

In Heb 6 it talks about leaving the doctrine of baptisms. We know the bible speaks of more than one baptism and it also mentions the Lord said unto my Lord.

It is obvious that the one Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ and the one faith is our belief in Him. The one baptism is our identification with him and it is clear that water baptism into Jesus Christ is the one outward sign that we are to practice.

The baptism into Christ can only be done by the Holy Spirit. The one baptism is the outward water baptism that we submit to and the spiritual baptism can only be done by God.

We also know that baptism in scripture also means immersion. The beginning of Acts in chapter 1 Jesus is telling His disciples that they were to be baptized in the Holy Ghost in a few days.

All through the book of acts every time people repented and believe in Jesus Christ they were to receive the one baptism in the name of Jesus Christ by water. It seems clear that these people were consider saved because the people in Samaria had great joy. We do know that all who were saved were regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

The ministers like Bro. Clendennon who talk about being baptized in the Holy Ghost are talking about being immersed in the Holy Spirit by Jesus and being endued with Power from on High.

When the Apostles went to Samaria, they prayed for them to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit like they had received on the day of Pentecost.

The bible seems clear that there is salvation by the Holy Spirit placing one into Christ.

It also seems very clear that the ones baptized into Christ were to be baptized in the Holy Ghost for power to witness.

Jesus said in acts 1:8 and you shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you and you shall be my witnesses.

Brother I believe that this power is so lacking today in the majority of the assemblies today and is the very reason why so little is done for Christ today.

You believe we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit because that is true. We are to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Ghost is greater than just a filling, it is that and more, it is an immersion with power from on high.

Notice in Acts chapter 4 they were refilled again.

Many men of God have recognized the need of the power of the Holy Ghost in witnessing Christ.

I realized that the ones in acts 19 may have not been baptized into Christ (having the new birth). But it is clear that Paul baptized them in the name of Jesus representing the baptism into Christ which clearly shows the new birth.

It is also clear that He laid hands on them after this to receive the Holy Ghost (an immersion) and they received power from on high and miraculously spoke by the Spirit.

It seems clear if we study the scriptures that one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. No where in the bible do we find any disciple praying for a sinner to receive the Holy Ghost. Jesus said the world could not receive Him.

The regenerated person in Christ is the only one who can receive the immersion in the Holy Ghost with power to witness Jesus Christ.

People can say all they want to about how we can't have the power of the Holy Ghost to do miracles like the apostles did but Jesus never said that he wanted his church to not have this power. We need the Holy Ghost in demonstration just like they needed Him back then. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe not just the original apostles.

The only thing that limits God in our life is our own unbelief.

Blessings to you my brother!

I have found, by reason of experience, when folks start 'controversial' topics on ANY Christian forum such as this, seldom does anything edifying come of it. Instead God's people engage in uncharitable behavior, all in the name of Scriptural debate.
Brethren who pray in tongues often call those who don't, 'ignorant and resistant to the move of the Holy Spirit'. They respond in kind by calling us 'deceived and unScriptural'

Enough already!!!
Is this any way for brethren to treat each other?
What? Do we mean we're incapable of disagreeing agreeably?

Let us all repent for formenting schism in Jesus' body and let the OP check their motive for starting this thread. Remember to Whom you must give account.

While we're at it, let the 'tongue-talkers' go pray that we all increase in our knowledge of Him, in holiness, in power and in boldness [a la Ephesians 1:17 - 20, Ephesians 3:16 - 20]. Let the 'non-tongue talkers' go pray the same in their understanding.

As we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

With much love.

It is obvious there is a great deal of confusion here about spiritual truths. It helps when we do not allow our carnal minds to grasp for spiritually discerned things; much less, argue about such truths from a theoretical perspective rather than an acceptable experiential one founded and confirmed in and by Scripture.

If you don't mind spending about 3 dollars (plus S&H), buy this book, "The Gifts of the Holy Spirit", by Harold Horton.

If you are not familiar with Harold Horton, definitely look him up. He is also known from another testimonial book, "Seven Pentecostal Pioneers", by Colin Whittaker (another recommended buy).

The entire focus of this book is on exactly what you are considering here, 1 Corinthians 12 - 13 - 14.

I guarantee you will not regret buying this book, unless, you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are myths. I have never read any Christian literature so precise and detailed on the function and order of the Gifts of the Spirit. It is truly written by a man who was not only diligent to the Bible but living in the midst of what he wrote - Pentecost.

Find and read this book:
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, by Harold Horton.

Who is Harold Horton; you may ask:
http://pentecostalpioneers.org/HaroldHorton.html

The book may also be found here:
http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Gifts_of_the_Spirit/0882435043/

Edit: I would also like to mention that "tongues" is not a peculiarity to Christianity alone. "Gibberish" has been a trait of many demonic spiritists and world religions throughout history; and in my opinion has been embraced by many modern churches. However, it should be noted that the Christian tongues, as given by utterance of the Holy Ghost, is the exact opposite of the incident of the Tower of Babel. Those who speak in tongues, not "gibberish", by utterance of the Holy Spirit, not of spirits or of psychological powers, are speaking in a factual language.

I could lay out the teachings of "unknown", or rather "unlearned", tongues very straight-forwardly but I shall digress (I am just a random person writing about spiritual things on the internet anyways :-P ).

Seriously, check out the book I mentioned.

And also, in a quick response to the difference between having the Holy Spirit, as given by the seed of the Word of God - "born-again", and being baptized by the Holy Ghost, receiving power from on high, I recommend a quick read of a chapter by good ol' Charles G. Finney.

Come on, its Charles Finney! You know it is good!

The chapter is taken from a book called, of all things, Power From on High. You can even find the whole book here on SI, although the chapters are out of order :-(

Power From On High - Intro, by Charles Finney
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=596

I believe it was Smith Wigglesworth who promise a reward to any one who could prove a genuine baptism in the Holy Ghost without the evidence of speaking in tonques.

Leonard Ravenhill definitely was baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet he never spoke in tongues.

Just a thought! I wonder are there any Calvinists who have had a definite baptism in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

Just wondering because I have found that those who are deeper in a man's theology....

Just a though because I hope that there is some who have the experience.

If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

In the Bible we see Paul's theology anticipate a lot of things to come. Nowhere does the Bible state what you just said it does. This is reading one's theology back into the Scripture. Nowhere does Paul or the apostles ever think what you just said. Indeed, Philippians 3 makes it clear that the perfect thing Paul is awaiting for is the resurrection of the dead, which is associated with the second coming of Christ. Paul also says the ministry gifts of the Church would be needed and utilized (Ephesians 4:11-13) until we attain corporate maturity and unity as the body of Christ. If one of the gifts of the Spirit are available to the Church, then all are. It's all or nothing in Paul's thelogy of the gifts.

It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.

There is nothing in Scripture that says it must be an earthly tongue. It can be, but it may not be. As it it is, there are thousands of languages/dialects in the world, so, even if one spoke in another earthly tongue, such could seldom be known for sure. Futhermore, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that he who speaks in an uninterpreted tongue speaks as a Barbarian i.e. one who is unintelligible (gibberish).

It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.

There is nothing in Scripture that says it must be an earthly tongue. It can be, but it may not be. As it it is, there are thousands of languages/dialects in the world, so, even if one spoke in another earthly tongue, such could seldom be known for sure. Futhermore, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that he who speaks in an uninterpreted tongue speaks as a Barbarian i.e. one who is unintelligible (gibberish).

I apologize for just entering into this convo randomly again, but I don't have the time to read through all of this post, and address some of the subjects that have been brought up.

This, however is an interesting point. I have heard pentecostal scholars on both sides of the fence on this one. One of the main scriptures one of the sides uses is the scripture Paul uses, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...." They claim this would suggest that when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, you will either speak in an unknown earthly tongue, or possibly a heavenly tongue. I, however, have no opinion on this, because I simply do not know.

wisevirgin wrote:

Tongues and the Holy Spirit

Acts 2 contains the first occurrence of tongues in the context of a supernatural activity related to the coming of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 4 reads: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Later, the passage describes the reaction of the multitude in Jerusalem:

"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? . . . Cretans and Arabs— we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2: 8,11).

The word, glossa, is used again, but there is another word used here that is significant in the study of biblical tongues. Examine Acts 2: 6: "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language." The word translated "language" is dialecto. In English it is "dialect."

This word is also used in Acts 2: 8: "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?"

The point is that the word glossa means exactly the same thing it means in other places in Scripture: It is a reference to an earthly language.

The Book of Acts clearly explains what happened at Pentecost. A diverse multitude of people had assembled at Jerusalem for the feast when suddenly a group of believers stood up and began "speaking in tongues." Scripture explains this phenomenon by indicating that they were speaking in the languages of the people who were there. Everyone heard his own language.

The gift of speaking in tongues evidenced at Pentecost was the act of speaking in languages that had not been learned or studied. The Spirit of God supernaturally empowered the disciples to speak in earthly languages that they did not know. The foreigners in Jerusalem who heard the disciples heard their own languages being spoken. It was not babble. It was not a heavenly language. It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.

Biblical Tongues and Modern Tongues

Before pursuing the validity of modern day "speaking in tongues," it must be measured in light of the Bible. From studying these passages in the Scripture, it becomes obvious that tongues was the ability to speak an earthly language that had not been learned or studied. That was the biblical framework when tongues were spoken. Is the modern day phenomenon biblical as some are claiming?

The modern day phenomenon does not meet the basic criteria of what is laid down in the Bible. Today it usually consists of people babbling. They claim, "This is it. This is the biblical phenomenon described in the Book of Acts. This is what happens when the Holy Spirit comes into your life."

No. Wait a minute. That is not what happened in the Bible. The proof is not in the experience, but in sifting the experience through the Scripture.

Please consider these scriptures as well.

1Cor 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

A part of my testimony is this.

This happened one night in 1989. I did not go to church I had no interest in church. I was a violent man who did all types of wrong and but I was fed up being that way. I knew that only God alone could change me. As I lay on my bed all I asked was this "God I am fed up being this way change me".

As I lay there a wind started to leave me from my stomach and after it left another wind blew on me and into me. It blew right into my stomach and I could feel it all over my body. Once it had finished I sat up and spoke in a language that I had never spoke before. I did not understand the language it did not sound like a earthly language and wasn't a earthly language. At the time I thought to myself what was that and I knew the answer it was "tounges"

From that point on I changed, I was a different person.

I can see in the bible very clearly the gift that God has given me. It's the Holy Spirit with the evidence of talking in tounges.

Colin Robert Murray

I appreciate this discussion of tongues among fellow believers without the usual strife and contention that usually takes place when this subject is brought up.

The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.

Praying in tongues is of great benefit to the believer as well as the Body of Christ. Praying in the Spirit edifies the believer, and through the gift of tongues and interpretation, the Church is edified.

When we pray in tongues, it is our spirit man that is praying as moved on by the Holy Spirit.

There is a great value in praying in tongues in matters in which we do not know how or what to pray. The Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

This is why the devil hates tongues and he will fight it. We don't have to pray in tongues to be saved, and sometimes tongues are abused and counterfeited, but that doesn't take away from the fact that hundreds of thousands of people all over the world from the day of Pentecost to present have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and speak in tongues. Now whether this is a foreign language or a tongue of angels, I don't know. I personally believe that it could be either one.

1st. Corinthians 14 answers a lot of questions on this subject.

In His Love,
Mike

The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.
- AbideinHim

Where does the Bible specifically say this?
Now I am a charasmatic (like C.J. Mahaney..not Benny Hinn) I just think that if we are going to keep tongues a biblical issue...we need to stick with the Bible. Thanks AbideinHim

The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.

Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long. A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant if secret sin is not being dealt with, and that the true fire only falls from Heaven when the whole sacrifice is cut up and laid on the altar: that is, the secret quest for man's approval, the love of money, position, power, influence, the lust of the eyes, pride of life, self-sufficiency, malice, covetousness, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc. All the hidden secrets.

The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might [i]not[/i] be truly Spirit-filled.

Kind of like the sinner's prayer, only Mach II.

Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long. A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are irrelevant if secret sin is not being dealt with, and that the true fire only falls from Heaven when the whole sacrifice is cut up and laid on the altar: that is, the secret quest of man's approval, the love of money, position, power, influence, the lust of the eyes, pride of life, self-sufficiency, malice, covetousness, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc. All the hidden secrets.

The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might not be truly Spirit-filled.

Needed words of admonition indeed, brother Paul.

There was an incident where the tongue-speakers were found [i]cursing[/i] God without even realizing it. While that "tongue" was a language unbeknownst to the speakers, however revealed by someone who happened to understand it in that congregation. All the while Satan was having a ball spreading this sort of tongues as wild fire.

Beware!

mamaluk

Good post Paul, Thank you.

I always wondered why there is no mention of Jesus speaking in tongues. The Mind of Christ is One with the Father and all good things come down from the Father of Light. Jesus manifested all the other gifts and He is the only true Gifted One. All the Gifts that the Spirit distributes as He pleases are in Jesus. If Christ is in us and we have the Mind of Christ and we are to renew our mind to the Mind of Christ, where are we to be renewed, I don't see speaking in an unknown tongue as having anything to do with being conformed to the image of Christ. If the Holy Spirit did not speak to our understanding how would we learn anything that has to do with renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ?

The same for Paul, he said, "I would rather speak five words with understanding than 10,000 in an unknown tongue". Tongues have always been divisive, as Paul had to address it in Corinth, as it was being used for unprofitable understanding of the Word of God. Satan uses tongues to this day and loves it when he can get the renewing of our minds to the Mind of Christ by the Word of God, to the point of speaking in a heavenly language that prophets no one in The Word of God and The Gifted One Himself giving gifts by the Holy Spirit for upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

I have many Christian brothers and sisters who speak in an unknown tongue, in our prayers together. It seems that they use the unknown tongues to give them time to think about what they are going to pray. I think it would profit them more if they were just silent before God and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for things we don't know of what or how to pray and Him give us revelation truth in God's will. If we ask anything in the Name of Jesus Christ, He said, He would answer. The Holy Spirit will not give revelation in and unknown tongue, lest how would we understand the revelation, so why ask in and unknown tongue, ask in faith, knowing that revelation will come if we listen carefully.
He won't give us a stone for bread.

I think it would be better if we prayed in our own understanding and receive approval or correction from the Holy Spirit with understanding that we may be profited for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Kind of like the sinner's prayer, only Mach II.

HAHAHAHA!

That was a great statement.

Speaking in tongues at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an evidence [u]for[/u] [b]OTHER PEOPLE[/b]!

It is very simple. [b]If the Omnipotent Living Spirit of God is in you, how could you not know it?[/b]

People are assuring THEMSELVES that they are baptised in the Holy Ghost because they hear THEMSELVES speak in tongues. Such foolishness.

Great post PaulWest.

Hello rbanks,

I haven't had time to be in here, but I wanted to acknowledge your post and thank you for your compliment. God bless you.

z

Christinyou wrote:

I always wondered why there is no mention of Jesus speaking in tongues. The Mind of Christ is One with the Father and all good things come down from the Father of Light. Jesus manifested all the other gifts and He is the only true Gifted One. All the Gifts that the Spirit distributes as He pleases are in Jesus. If Christ is in us and we have the Mind of Christ and we are to renew our mind to the Mind of Christ, where are we to be renewed, I don't see speaking in an unknown tongue as having anything to do with being conformed to the image of Christ.

Here is an example of Jesus groaning in the Spirit.

John 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Look at v33...Jesus groaned in the spirit.......

It looks very clear to me that there are examples of Jesus praying in a language that nobody could understand.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered [RSV: with sighs too deep for words; NIV: with groans that words cannot express].
----------------------------------------------

Tounges are only the starting point of a prayer life that can lead to deep groanings where you fight and wrestle in prayer with words that cannot be uttered.

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

Praying earnestly until he was sweating drops of blood. What type of prayer is this?

Matt 26:37-38 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and sore troubled. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.

He began to be sorrowful do you think he sat crying like a kid. What was going on in his spirit that caused him to be exceedling sorrowful even to the point of death.

Come on people do you think that Jesus was waiting quietly to know what he was going to say do please try and picture Jesus. Groaning and weeping and battling with what he had to face please try and imagine the fight he had on his hands at this point. Here we see Jesus going to levels in prayer that caused him to sweat great drops of blood to the point of death.

There are very clear verses in the bible where Jesus prayed sighs too deep for words; with groans that words cannot express he did not sit and wait quietly ans some would have us do.

I ask you what image of Christ do you have?

When you get a new pair of shoes the tongues come with them.

Excellent "article" - thank you!

"The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized."
Really Paul? Did you mean to say millions? For all i know you may be right, but how is it you have come to that conclusion? I am a pentacostal and know quite a few others. Some fit your description, some do not. I would say that in my experience that the description of people who think they are chritians, but live a decidedly unchristian life covers all the denominations. (perhaps some more than others). But that is another discussion entirely. You seem to have quite the axe to grind with "pentacostals" in particular. Or does it just seem that way because this topic is on a "pentacostal issue"?

originally I was going to ask you whether you believe that the gift of tongues is for today or not. I believe that was the original question. And then I guess my question for those who say no, "is which other scriptures no longer apply to todays world?

Evidence - I do not know that this is the criteria or the expectation, to frame it that way is to put forth an anticipation that may or may not come.

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Regardless if this is supposed to be at 'inception' or relegated to the realm of 'gifts' it is still the negation of this very idea. The rhetorical question is answered in it's stating; No. No, they do not all speak with tongues.

The argument is from silence just as much as it is from mention. Putting this idea to new believers or even old for that matter is very much the reason we have the soulish-manipulative imaginings, turned out as audible gibberish that we do. To be coached or taught something that is supposed to come without either is to teach a falsehood and foolishness.

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

[b]1Co 14:21-25[/b] -
In this passage the apostle pursues the argument, and reasons from other topics; as,

I. Tongues, as the Corinthians used them, were rather a token of judgment from God than mercy to any people (1Co_14:21): [i]In the law[/i] (that is, the Old Testament) [i]it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all this they will not hear me, saith the Lord[/i], Isa_28:11. Compare Deu_28:46, Deu_28:49. To both these passages, it is thought, the apostle refers. Both are delivered by way of threatening, and one is supposed to interpret the other. The meaning in this view is that it is an evidence that a people are abandoned of God when he gives them up to this sort of instruction, to the discipline of those who speak in another language. And surely the apostle's discourse implies, “You should not be fond of the tokens of divine displeasure. God can have no gracious regards to those who are left merely to this sort of instruction, and taught in language which they cannot understand. They can never be benefited by such teaching as this; and, when they are left to it, it is a sad sign that God gives them over as past cure.” And should Christians covet to be in such a state, or to bring the churches into it? Yet thus did the Corinthian preachers in effect, who would always deliver their inspirations in an unknown tongue.

Mathew Henry

This excerpt is not a statement whatsoever, just a piece for consideration, all of the sections in 1 Cor 12 through 14 and all the others mentioning tongues ought to be read through from his commentary. And not just his, but others as well. This is not a simple matter and I recognize the various arguments - But at the same time the abuse and ... stupidity that is so prevalent in our day ... Coming from this construct and repeating it again redundantly here would be wearing. It is not one incident that would turn me sour but many. I have no issues whatsoever where it may be indeed true, but unfortunately that is the very area where the evidence is lacking.

Not to be in any way flippant, but it occurred to me ... Why might not martyrdom be the 'evidence' of being baptized in the Spirit? Seems to be quite a weight of evidence towards this ...

Just to get us thinking.

Incidents or precedents?

PaulWest wrote:

Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long.

Paul I ask how many more read there bible every week and don't know the Author. How much of them have wrecthed defeated lives.

A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom,knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant

What nonsense is this you don't get these things mentioned above because your immersed in the Word.

Does it not say in the Word

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

The things you mention are gifts and fruits of the Spirit. They are not because you read your bible they are there because of the Spirit of God that lives in you.

The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might [i]not[/i] be truly Spirit-filled.

Again you can and look at the same about churches that have bibles but are dull, formal, blah, flat, humdrum, stale, tiresome, worn out, repetitious and dead. Being led by The Very Reverended I AM Jolly. Having no knowledge of God having never known Jesus.

Look at what the bible says about Elijah.

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.

Please notice it did not say Elijah a man who was immersed in the Torah.

No it said Elijah a man with the same passions as us prayed.

So you think that the Devil is not scared of a man who prays fervently in the Spirit or if I could put it this way a man who talks in tongues, groans, weeps and travails. I would say you are wrong and this is why the Devil sows so much division around this issue.

Jesus said "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations"

Prayer is very important and the Devil and the Devil knows it.

That why there is so much division over the of talking in tounges he wants to hold people back.

Tounges are a weapon because the force behind tounges is the Holy Spirit and for this reason the Devil does not want you to use it.

Seeing prayer as a part of God’s war arsenal can be difficult for some believers to grasp.

Tradition teaches us that our prayers only touch God and that in order to be holy we should be quiet and still. However, the Bible declares that effective fervent prayer releases God’s power (James 5:16).

Colin Robert Murray

Thanks Colin, for your post. You are able to say more clearly what I was trying to say.

I would still like to hear from Paul West about the question of his anger towards "pentacostals".

I would also be interested to hear from those who say tongues is not for today. Please reveal to me which other scriptures and what other things Jesus said are not for today.

Brothertom, I am in complete agreement with the list of names you present as people who have done much harm to the gospel. But we do not follow men, but Jesus Christ alone. How does their bad behavior affect our christianity? I am not quoting them. I am quoting Jesus.
Jesus said it in Mark 16:15-18

What nonsense is this you don't get these things mentioned above because your immersed in the Word.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

Find no contradiction here?

Mike,

But the fruit of immersion in the Word are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

In Gal 5:22-23 it does not say the above it says the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT are.

When Paul mentioned Word of God I took it to mean the bible. The bible is only words on paper they are powerless without the backing of the Holy Spirit.

Without the Spirit revealing God and his Son through the bible you will not understand them.

For Paul to say

A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant

This is wrong because the same SPIRIT that brings life and revelation to the Bible also causes believers to talk in tounges.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Why would the same Spirit that reveals the Word teach that Tounges are insignificant. When he is the one that also causes us to talk in tounges.

Is he saying maybe the Spirit is selective and will only reveal truth through the bible when we have hidden sin and will not operate in the tounge talking part.

I hope my point is clear know it's the Spirit behind everything that causes fruit, that brings revelation, that causes conviction of sin, that brings repentance, that causes us to love, that causes us to be patient, that allows to heal the sick, to cast out devils, to speak in tounges, that causes us to be Holy, sober, strong, disciplined, wise the list could go on and on.

But the Spirit will not teach tounges are insignificant in any circumstance. That would be a different spirit messing with your thoughts.

Colin Robert Murray

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Eph.5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

The Lord has helped us immensely by making it so that even a quick comparison of these text (you would need to read the entire context) reveals to us that letting the Word of Christ dwell within you richly has the identical effect as being filled with the Spirit.

In discussing these and any issues it is not the authority of a man that wins his hearer. It is only the careful scrutiny of truth by navigating through the Word of God, unbiased and willing to be wrong on any point. I say willing to be wrong, because he may very well be and will need the submission that is an evidence of being filled with the Spirit (see the above text in its entirety) It is coming to the table together to examine what He has said to us...us, eternal kinsmen that love each other and lay our lives down for each other.

Let me speak to a brother like this, for I know he loves God's Word and does not trust himself. He knows he can be deceived and must in the fear of God rightly divide the Word of truth. He dare not intrepret scripture with his experiences. Any other conversation is worthless and uninviting.

Just as the drinking of pure water cleanses the body of impurities - so does the drinking of the Word purify us spiritually - but only insomuch that we have not partaken of so much of the world that our pores are clogged by it's pollutants. As we are cleansed, the beauty of His Son begins to shine through and we are led deeper and deeper into the meaning of all He has put before us. His Word unlocks the mysteries that have been contained throughout the ages. He is contained within the Word - but not constrained.

Sorry Brothertom, perhaps I should have said I am for the most part in agreement with your post. Instead of how I said it.

maybe the confusion here is over what I am posting about.

The original question is whether or not tongues are still for today. NOT about their importance or place in our spiritual lives. It has morphed into many other discussions which I was not intending to to part in.

But you spent the majority of your post pointing out "pentacostal leaders" who have gone wrong. You were defending Paul's rant as I asked him why is he so angry at "pentacostals".
This is a part of your quote which again seems to be taking a shot at pentacostals;

"Speaking in tongues is utterly useless, if the fruit of your life is carnal...for all to see. It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers. 1st cor: 13.....sounding brass, clanging symbols..."it profits me nothing."

I agree with the statement entirely except for the useless shot you seem to be taking at me. Do you know me and my peers? And did i say anything of the nature that tongues proves something? BUT,
You single out speaking in tongues and there is a lot more to it than just that small part you chose to quote. Which of the other gifts of the spirit are useful if the fruit of your life is carnal?? Let me be clear speaking in tongues is but one gift of the same spirit. And pointing out people who have allowed the devil to take over and pervert their lives is something that is useless! Unless you are trying to imply, in any way, that one of GODS gifts is a cause of their bad behavior, which is outragous!
I am certain we could put together a list of "non pentacostals" who have fallen. But what would be the point/

In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Could it be that the 'perfect' which the apostle Paul was talking about in 1Cor 13:10 refers rather to our 'glorified being' which he also mentioned in 1Cor 15:50-53:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Guys/Girls

I think some of you think is differently from me.

The word "carnal" comes from the Latin word for flesh. In Romans viii, and in Gal. v., we are taught that the flesh and the Spirit of God are the two opposing powers by which we are dominated or ruled, and we are taught that a true believer may allow himself to be ruled by the flesh. That is what Paul writes to the Corinthians. In the 3rd chapter, the first four verses, he says, four times to them, "You are carnal, and not spiritual." And just so a believer can allow the flesh to have so much power over him that becomes "carnal." Every object is named according to its most prominent characteristic.

If anyone gives way, as the Corinthians did, to strife, temper, division, and envy, he is a carnal Christian. He is a Christian, but a carnal one. But if he gives himself over entirely to the Holy Spirit so that He (the Holy Spirit) can deliver from the temper, the envy, and the strife, by breathing a heavenly disposition; and can mortify the deeds of the body; then God's Word calls him a "spiritual" man
--------------------------------------------

Is there anyone here reading this thread that can say the have dealt with all the works of the flesh (Carnality, Sin)in there life.

------------------------------------------

Does it not say in the word

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is becomes guilty of all.

By setting the standard that tounges are useless because of sin or carnality in your life you then have to apply this standard in all things you do. Which would include praying in our own language. By this standard then that would make these prayer useless as well.

Come on guys lets be real.

In Matthew 23, Jesus expressed his deep contempt for true religious hypocrites. Here are some of the charges he leveled against them:

They give out laws to others, but they do not live by them (vs. 3-4)

They love impressive, public religious displays, and being referred to with religious titles (vs. 5-12)

They win converts to their own religion, but not to God (vs. 13-15)

They re-interpret their own laws in order to suit their own purpose (vs. 16-22)

They emphasize minuscule religious details, yet ignore the most important truths (vs. 23-24)

They keep the outward appearance clean, while leaving the inside corrupt(vs.25-28)

They deny their own sinfulness (vs. 29-36)

There is not one of us good enough but thank God that he us sent his Son.

"You accused me of directing my posts at fallen Pentecostals. Perhaps 10% of the two were , to point out that character and holiness are paramount in our walk, not any gift."
No Tom, I responded to your reply to me. Where you did spent the majority of your post pointing out "pentacostal leaders" who had fallen. As you did for me, here is your reply post to me. Read this and tell me you did not spend the majority of this post, as I said, pointing out "pentacostals bad behavior".
All I said in response to you was that "Brothertom, I am in complete agreement with the list of names you present as people who have done much harm to the gospel. But we do not follow men, but Jesus Christ alone. How does their bad behavior affect our christianity? I am not quoting them. I am quoting Jesus.
Jesus said it in Mark 16:15-18"

"Paul has a point though. Because of TBN, and many high profile charismatic ministries over the last 30 years, the Pentecostals have been lumped together with them. The world in general holds these icons somewhere between a laughing stock and clownish caricatures of what the christian IS.

Kathryn Kuhlman , Jimmy Swaggart's debacle, "I have sinned!", and then more, and then "NO" to any correction, Tammy Faye's 50,000 dollar dog house, and those eyelashes, with 8 pounds of makeup and a Dolly Parton wig heaped high, while thieving millions....TBN's bizarre tuxedo's and candlelight hedonism bilking millions and millions, Benny Hinn, Copeland, Hagee, Creflo, Schuller, Hagin, Oral's plea for millions or else....he would die...and the neo-prophetic carnival of Bentley, the apostolic Alliance, Bob Jones, Paul Cain...and let us not forget the motivational humanists of the emerging church, and Olsteen, and 29 other mega-churches who embrace the Pagan prosperity gospel....but hold tongues up as the PROOF, that they are the ones, who hold the mighty Baptism in His holy Spirit. These are NATIONAL figures....ICONS of American Hedonism to most, masquerading in religious robes. Maybe this was the point that Paul West makes.
It is pointless to proceed. I could go on, and you know it. Of course, there are Pentecostals that are genuine , cross bearing and loving , fruit bearing disciples. I hope so, for I speak in tongues, in my private prayer life, every day of my life. The issue , I believe , is one of Godly character, and holiness....not the gifts.The gifts are given, SO that, we would bear Holy and Godly Fruit, not PROVE that we have attained a deeper experience with our Creator.

We are not to preach gifts, but Christ Crucified. It is not a badge of attainment. It is proof of nothing except you were graced with something you did not earn, that could help you attain intimacy and a holy relationship with your Maker. This is what Christ Jesus is pursuing in his Bride, and is attracted to; a Garment of white...of purity...of Holiness and Love emanating to Himself, His family, and a dying and dark world.

Tongues may help you on this journey; it may not....but the impression I get with many who focus upon it primarily, is that Pride has deceived them. "You shall know them by their fruits." Not Gifts, and especially a private, personal one like tongues, given to assist your Worship life. It is definitely not an endorsement of the Holy Spirit, proven by the Love in our lives alone."

In response to me here is one of the paragraphs you wrote "Speaking in tongues is utterly useless, if the fruit of your life is carnal...for all to see. It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers. 1st cor: 13.....sounding brass, clanging symbols..."it profits me nothing."
" It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers."
Thought I would copy this part twice so you would see it. I accept that you were not talking about me specifically because you said so. But when you say "you and your peers" you should expect someone to think you meant "them and their peers" So perhaps you should just lose the attitude.

"One word of advice, for your sake. Be edifying, using the bible, and don't filter things to yourself as confrontation. It is a forum about issues and biblical ideas, and a lot of people will and do disagree, This is not a venue to attack, or it is not a venue for you to defend yourself, and your ideas, but to discuss them, that others may be edified."

Thanks for the advise, but that is what I thought I was doing. I made a simple post and have only been responding to your replys.
I made a statement that IF you were pointing out these fallen leaders to make a point about tongues that that would be outrageous. I did not say anything of the nature that you were saying that, Again I did not understand yours or Pauls reasons for posts pointing out "fallen pentacostal tongue talkers". It seems obvious that there are fallen leaders accross the board of christian beliefs.
It is you who has responded with offense in each of your replys. I did not mean to offend and have tried only to clarify my point. As it seemed you did not understand what I was trying to say. I am not a great writer and typing is difficult for me. So sometimes my point does not come through.
But here are some of you responses to me. And i really cannot take any offense from you as I do not even know you. And again on the type written post it is impossible to detect tone or trueky discern emotion.
"For the reason of your inability to see that, I have my original post below:"
This is a revival forum where ideas are DISCUSSED. It is not a chat room, where everything IS about you. This may come as a surprise to you, but when responding, you never came into my mind, no not once. When I use the term "you", I refer to the individual, as a whole, in defining my discernment on a spiritual issue."
"I am still in wonder about how you could conclude that I was inferring that the gift of tongues could cause "Bad Behavior." Every idea is an attack, isn't it? God Forbid! Of course not! The flesh unchecked causes bad behavior."

"One word of advice, for your sake. Be edifying, using the bible, and don't filter things to yourself as confrontation. It is a forum about issues and biblical ideas, and a lot of people will and do disagree, This is not a venue to attack, or it is not a venue for you to defend yourself, and your ideas, but to discuss them, that others may be edified."
This is good advice Brothertom, remove your plank and I will remove mine! I am unhappy we got to this point, but for the sake of all it needs to end. As you said I have also failed in this area. Hopefully we learn and do better next time, zenozac

The point of my post was to challenge the thought processes that brought about this statement.

Tounges are useless because of hidden sin(carnality)

If they use this standard on the matter of tounges then they must use this same standard when it comes to everything we do in our Christian life. One of them being when we pray in our natural language this would make your prayer time in any form useless.

Or we would be hypocrites.

We then have to look at ourselves and ask Lord is my hands clean is my heart pure. The answer would be no. We are not good enough not one of us.

We get on our high horse about the men and women mentioned on this thread. We look at them how wrong how bad they are. Yes there hearts are wicked but you know what our hearts are wicked to.

What would happen if they repented of what they where doing and started coming to the church you attend? Would you allow them in? Would you talk to them? Would there be any ill feeling in you?

Please be honest....

If God has given us a prayer language then lets use it. Tounges is a small part of the big picture. It's a gift that helps to pray when we don't know what to pray.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

I was hoping someone at some point would answer a question, but so far none have baothered. \\Since you started this post and are obviously very read up on this subject, I will pose this simple question to you.
What other scriptures and what other quotes of Jesus are not for today? If we are throwing out Mark16: 15-18 for one among others. What else?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14144&forum=13&3]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

Thread locked.