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The “whosoever that believeth”

R
rbanks

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The bible is clear that the gospel of salvation is given to everyone that believes.
I believe God predestined according to His foreknowledge.

Does the “whosoever that believeth” become the “elect”?

Does the “Elect” become the “whosoever that believeth”?

How do you see it and what scriptures have you found?

T
theopenlife

Hello, again, Robert.

Thoughtful questions, and very important.

I believe the scriptures teach "whosoever believes" will be saved. Who ever comes to Christ, truly and not falsely, will have eternal life.

I also read in the Word that saints believe because they were first elected to the grace necessary to believe.

My conviction is that no one comes to Christ by a decisive work of their own ability, but do so in response to the effectual call of God who "grants repentance" and gives faith as a "gift".

I believe the elect are a definite "remnant according to grace", chosen from eternity to be subjects of God's victorious love, without regard for their foreseen willingness to fulfill the gospel commands. Moreover, none would repent and believe unless they did not first receive the "drawing" of the Father, the "new birth" of the Spirit. And that all who receive the effectual call do certainly come, because their nature is transformed to desire life through faith in Christ.

This is to say, the elect are always called "chosen from eternity," "before the foundation of the world."

The elect are manifested by their willingness to believe, which willingness comes from a renewed nature, as a result of the sure grace of God.

Again, the saints believe because they were first elected to the grace necessary to believe.

Blessings.

S
sojourner7

God does the calling and the choosing. He knows
whosoever will believe and He gives revelation
of the truth that brings salvation. Salvation
is His mercy and His work on the cross through
the sacrifice of His Only Son.

R
rbanks

So are you saying that it is God who makes a person believe and another one who can’t believe, He decides not to make Him believe?

What then causes God to Elect some before the foundation of the world to be the “whosoever that believeth” and others He just over looks?

The bible says he so loved the world and does not clarify that there are some who do not have a choice to be one of His elect.

I am more of the belief that God in His foreknowledge saw who would believe and from this knowledge He elected them to eternal life.

This would make man responsible to His creator which I believe the bible teaches.

The scripture says as you stated (none would repent and believe unless they did not first receive the "drawing" of the Father) but the Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict us. I believe the convicting power of the Holy Spirit upon a person is God giving the ability to respond. God gives to every man the measure of faith.

This would make man responsible to obey as well as God being responsible to keep His elect.

S
sojourner7

What I am saying is election is God's choosing;
and salvation is God's gift and God's work upon
the cross for whosoever will believe!! I agree
with your views of foreknowledge because God is
Omniscient (all_knowing). God's gift of grace
is made available for all men but it must be
received by faith!! God has not overlooked any
provision for our salvation.

R
rbanks

Another reason of concern is to those who are strong advocates of election without any free will of the individual is the damage I think it can cause to people.

We are all going to experience troubles and trials in this life. Let’s say a person is struggling in his life and he knows he is not living a Christian life. He hears a teaching that some are the elect of God by God’s choice and some are not by God’s choice. This thought comes to his mind, I’m probably the one God didn’t elect, and how will I ever know for sure, if there are some He didn’t want to elect.

I believe everyone has the opportunity to be the elect. I know I am one of the elect because I have been bought with a price and the Spirit of Christ abides in me.

I never witness to anyone, (no matter how great they have sinned), wondering that there could be a possibility that they are not elected. I believe everybody can be saved if they will believe in Jesus Christ.

This is why I believe that God’s foreknowledge was in the knowing who would believe in his Son, and not in the choosing some and not choosing others to believe.

This would place the predestination to be in His plan before the foundation of the world, to elect all those who truly believe in His Son and His foreknowledge of those who would, He elected them according to His Plan before the foundation of the world.

God is still sovereign over all his creation but I don’t believe He wants me to think that there are humans going to Hell for eternity because He never loved them and that Jesus didn’t die for them.

I like this phrase “We cannot without God and He will not without us” because He has given us the part to believe but He has given us the ability to do so and He gets all the credit and glory.

Blessings to all! -rbanks

H
hmmhmm

There is a picture that goes something like this

we are all traveling down a road, everyone is walking on it, as we walk forward we see a door on the side, it has a sign over it that says "anyone may enter"

most people pass by, but some do enter in, as they have entered and look behind them over the door, they see a sign that says "you where chosen before time"

so many try explain it, but it is one of the mysteries, i havent found anyone who can yet explain it fully, many try hard, but mostly violate a bunch of scripture to prove the doctrine right.

Zac Poonen told a illustration about how much higher God and his purposes are above us men. He likened it to try teach a dog something. You can teach it much, even to count one, two , three and other amazing tricks.

but try teach a dog multiplication or something that takes deep thinking and intelligence. You will fail.

Then you tell me, between who are the greatest distance?

God - man

man - dog

of course God is far far beyond all of us, and those who claim they have figured it out i am concerned about. There are some more of these in the bible :-)

hard things to understand, but i think the best thing is to say "i dont know"

God knows, that is enough. I know it makes no difference in the walk with the Lord, to quote Ravenhill, to overload your head with theology wont make you pray.

Its a matter of intimacy with God.

we need to know the doctrines of the bible, we need to know what it says and study it carefully and much.

But we need se to it that our study gives us life.

if all we have is knowledge and doctrine, even if you are one of those who can figure out calvins reasoning and teachings you better see to it that it produce life in you. as with the other Arminians, or whatever.

The truth will set you free the bible says, some use freedom as a opportunity for the flesh, but those who know better and read the scripture in its context see it is freedom from sin.

so no matter the doctrine, if it has not freed you from sin, its a deception.

the measure stick is that, if it sets you free from sin its the truth, and transforming you more and more into HIS image , if you look back and judge your life and see a steady growth in holiness and Christlike and a greater hatred for sin and a love for righteousness, makes you love GOD more and all men.

you stick to that doctrine

a man gave me an advice, i asked how we can know and protect ourselves from all this deception and extremes out there in these last days.

It was a good advice i think, he said to me "read,read,read the gospels, study the life of Jesus. If you follow him you will do fine at the judgment seat"

That is the one point of mine so despised by my Calvin brethren :-P

point 1. Jesus Christ

God bless you all and keep you in the persuit of HIM and the freedom there is in HIM.

R
rbanks

Thanks hmmhmm for your very honest post. I really enjoyed reading it.

It has been well said "that life does not come out of doctrine but true doctrine is to come out of life".

T
theopenlife

rbanks, your concerns and objections are honest and fair. Many of them were my own. I am persuaded that my disagreements with God's electing according to grace, and not foreseen willingness, were owing to misunderstandings and preconceptions. For the most part I think these were more rooted in my natural philosophy, than in scripture.

This article by A. W. Pink more or less "sealed the deal" in my transformed view:

[url=http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_04.html]Pink - The Sovereignty of God in Man's Salvation[/url]

I commend it to you and those who have yet to see the glory of God in the unconditional election of souls according to grace.

A
ANewInHim

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News”.
by Marc Jacobs.

Matthew 8:18 – 20 When Jesus noticed how large the crowd was growing, he instructed his disciples to cross to the other side of the lake. Then one of the teachers of religious law said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you no matter where you go!”. But Jesus said, “Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head.


Beautiful, simply beautiful and such power and faith, she could not handle it anymore, she had lost the one she loved the one that had changed her life. He took her from the place where she had been, in her mind and in her heart she had believed the lies that were told of her and that where told to her. She was struggling with fear; she knew that fear did not come from God, but fear non-the-less she struggled with. She thought to her self, it is easier way easier to stay where I am at, then to confront, to face the word spoken over my life, and the vision that came with it. Mary, thought as long as I can sit here at the feet of the prophet, and listen to his teaching, and become like a sponge, this is all I need, and I can deposit this into others.

Mary struggled with the bigger picture, that her sins’ had been forgiven, no longer was she who she used to be, she was a new creation, the former things had past away, behold I due a new thing. Mary held on to those words that had been spoken over her life and placed them on a shelf. She en listed herself instead in a University to study Law. She told herself she was going to be an attorney, and defend the cause of others, she was going to speak on there behalf. She knew that they could not represent themselves in front of a judge; she didn’t know the logistics’, the terminology if you will. But, she purposed in her own heart that she would learn, and speak in front of multitudes, and learn she did. Four years she attended the University of Pennsylvania, and received her degree in Law, but she was still not content, she decided to en list her self in the University of Pittsburgh, and study to obtain her masters. Two years had now past by, but she was still not content, the overwhelming frustration that was coming upon her heart was most unbearable to herself -- Clients were calling her sending her e-mails offering her a lot of money to re-present them. She found herself with so many offers, and still she was not content, there was more, there was something more that she had to do, before she could accept there offer. She had to obtain her Doctorate degree. Mary decided that she would continue with the same major -- Law, since it had been her hearts desire, since God placed it there.

Mary, remembered the many times that she sat at the feet of the prophet,, to listen to his teachings, and to laugh at his jokes. This was not going to be easy for her. Now in order to obtain her Doctorates in Law, she had to write a Thesis, a book.

During her devotional time.

During her devotional time with God, as she studied, he spoke to her and told her to keep her calendar next to her, because as she began to write her Thesis her calendar would begin to fill up with numerous appointments, more then she could possibly imagine, but this would only come, during her devotional time as she wrote her Thesis.

Title (s) began to come to her mind, one after the other, she could hardly keep up. Mary began to walk with a tape recorder in her hand because she could not believe all of the offers and all of the people that needed her to re-present them in court.

Here, as the story goes we find Mary walking towards the tomb, with such high hopes that she would rescue the body of her beloved Jesus, only to find that the tomb was empty, he had risen is what she was told by the angels, he had risen.

What Mary could not see, though she thought she had arrived, was that there, was a Resurrection. Jesus did not lie to her. One the third day he arose.

In here today, to tell you;
Embrace every word spoken over your life feel it’s desire to live within you.

I wonder what the Title of Mary’s book will be, and where will it be published and who will endorse it?

HOW MANY OF YOU FIND THIS BY MARC JACOBS BORING AND INSIFNIGIFICANT?

R
rbanks

Thank you theopenlife for the writing by Pink, and I did enjoy a lot of what I read, but still there is the part of the mystery of God’s elect.

I read the first part and some of the second part and agreed with most and very thankful for the knowledge of the word in this dear brother’s life and teaching. As I was reading the mystery became clearer to me.

The truth of scripture is wonderful concerning God’s election. I agree with all the truth in scripture He has found but the mystery concerning election that he has come to try to explain I just disagree. Let met tell you why, because I believe when God says he so loved the world and Jesus died for everyone that is clear.

Understanding also became clearer where the scripture says "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). I believe the mystery is in God’s foreknowledge. We know that God elected us before the foundation of the world because with God the end is always contained in the beginning. Notice this, everyone that God saw in the future before the foundation of the world that would believe in His Son, He ordained them to eternal life. God saw into the future all those that would believe and He elected them before the foundation of the world and they were ordained to eternal life. Praise God! This means all that were ordained to eternal life believed. God seeing that we would believe makes sure that we do and enables us to by His grace through faith.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Blessings to all! -rbanks

T
theopenlife

rbanks, your honesty is evident an appreciated. Please graciously accept my questions.

If the decisive determination of salvation rests on the unprovoked will of man, and not on the determination of God to secure that person's salvation, then would not man receive that crowning element of glory?

Suppose two people receive the exact same gospel message, and both experience the same resistible strivings of the Spirit, and at last one repents and the other goes on to damnation. What then is the difference which compelled the first to repent? Was he wiser? Was he less addicted to sin? Was he more naturally moral? It certainly cannot have been something God did differently - according to your present view - so the defining difference which separates sheep from goats, saved from lost, would need be something in the man that elevates him above another.

I affirm that the difference is that to the one who heard and yet was damned, God was gracious enough to allow him to hear and then morally refuse the gospel. To the one who was saved, God was exceedingly and abundantly gracious, not only to let him hear the gospel, but to be morally transformed to willingly receive it.

T
tjservant

Hello brother rbanks

Notice this, everyone that God saw in the future before the foundation of the world that would believe in His Son, He ordained them to eternal life.

Do you believe That God looked into the future to see if Jesus actually died on the cross and then elected it to happen?

I personally believe it is the other way around.

I do believe God is all knowing (omniscient), but I also believe He does not use this knowledge as a determining factor for deciding who is elected. It is not merited, it is not deserved; it is of the sovereign grace of God.

Just some thoughts brother

Grace and peace

B
BeYeDoers

If I may jump in...Salvation has NOTHING to do with our choice, but God's. Christ on the cross is the ONLY basis for our forgiveness. But our responsibility is to repent and believe by faith when God convicts us by his word empowered by the Holy Spirit. Our repentance and faith is not a work whereby we become "worthy" or "determine" our salvation. We could repent and believe and determine to serve him all the days of our life and it would DO nothing for us. But praise God, He sent His Son to be the propitiation and decides to save those who repent and believe on Him. It is our choice to repent and believe once the Holy Spirit brings His word, but His choice to create, give His Son, give His word, and ultimately save.

The way I like to say it is this: God has given us requirements without which we can't be saved, but fulfilling those requirements do nothing towards saving us.

R
rbanks


theopenlife wrote:
rbanks, your honesty is evident an appreciated. Please graciously accept my questions.

If the decisive determination of salvation rests on the unprovoked will of man, and not on the determination of God to secure that person's salvation, then would not man receive that crowning element of glory?

Thank you brother,

Now, here is my answer.

The decisive determination of salvation does not rest on the unprovoked will of man but in God’s will toward His elect in that none shall be lost.

The determination of God to secure that person's salvation is determined by God in his providential care to secure the faith that man places in Him. True biblical faith is not works but the gift of God.

R
rbanks


tjservant wrote:
Hello brother rbanks

Notice this, everyone that God saw in the future before the foundation of the world that would believe in His Son, He ordained them to eternal life.

Do you believe That God looked into the future to see if Jesus actually died on the cross and then elected it to happen?

I personally believe it is the other way around.

Brother Tj I have enjoyed your writings on Si.

I don't really know why you would ask a question like that from what I have stated but the answer is a definite no.

The bible is plain concerning the fact that Jesus was crucified in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. God did not decree the fall and is not responsible for the fall but saw a head and decreed that his Son Jesus would become the savior of the world.

Blessings Brother! -rbanks

T
tjservant


rbanks wrote:

tjservant wrote:
Hello brother rbanks

Notice this, everyone that God saw in the future before the foundation of the world that would believe in His Son, He ordained them to eternal life.


Do you believe That God looked into the future to see if Jesus actually died on the cross and then elected it to happen?

I personally believe it is the other way around.

Brother Tj I have enjoyed your writings on Si.

I don't really know why you would ask a question like that from what I have stated but the answer is a definite no.

The bible is plain concerning the fact that Jesus was crucified in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. God did not decree the fall and is not responsible for the fall but saw a head and decreed that his Son Jesus would become the savior of the world.

Blessings Brother! -rbanks

Just showing why I do not believe God looks into the future in order to make the decision as to elect someone (or not) based on what they did. The same goes with His Son. He decreed it…it happened. He did not look into the future to see if it happened and then decree it. Same with man, if He says you’re elect…you’re elected. I do not believe He looks into the future to see if someone merits election.

Grace and Peace my brother

R
rbanks


I do not believe He looks into the future to see if someone merits election.

I do not believe He looks into the future to see if someone merits election either. No one merits election.

Election is according to God's grace.

T
theopenlife

"There is a remnant according to the election of grace"

[b]There is a remnant[/b], that is, a minority which has been and will forever be preserved. Paul compares this to the 7000 reserved in Elijah's time. It is a definite number of reserved people.

It is a remnant [b]according to an election[/b], that is, a choice, a selection. A 'remnant' cannot include all; not all mankind is included in this remnant and all are not elect - chosen.

Who does the choosing? The Giver of grace, for it is an 'election according to grace'. And what is the basis His choice to include one in this remnant, and to exclude another?

The remnant is chosen [b]according to grace[/b]. Grace is the voluntary internal determination of God to do good, without regard for any actions or omissions of the one to whom He does it. Grace is given to whom He chooses, when He chooses, as He chooses.

Some say that God gives His grace equally to all who hear the gospel, but this would ruin the meaning of a 'remnant according to the election of grace', for the common grace which all the world receives does not guarantee their preservation or salvation, which is the implication of the passage. A remnant is preserved.

Again, this cannot be an election, a choice, of all and everyone of those who hear the gospel or feel the strivings of the Spirit. If that were so, then the remnant would include all people who hear and feel the gospel call. Gospel calls may be ignored. The general strivings of the Spirit can be resisted. This grace, spoken of here, is a superior grace. It is a victorious, drawing grace, which makes distinction of its recipients purely upon the unexplained determination choice of Sovereign God.

The remnant, the minority of souls set apart to receive salvation, were selected not because of anything they would do - for they would have done nothing good apart from this special grace - but because God selected them graciously to receive a transformation that came by the Spirit as they heard the word of God. The immediate result was that they placed their faith in Christ.

This remnant was chosen from eternity, for eternity, according to grace and not works. Faith is a work, it is a thing we do. God does not have faith for us, but produces it in us through regeneration. Salvation is by grace, through faith, and what God foreknew was His electing, sovereign love for His people, chosen in Christ according to His merits.

Anyone who wants salvation may come to Christ. When they have come, they discover, sooner or later, that it was God who made them "willing in the day of His power."

Psalm 110:3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

T
tjservant


rbanks wrote:

I do not believe He looks into the future to see if someone merits election.

I do not believe He looks into the future to see if someone merits election either. No one merits election.

Election is according to God's grace.

Hello again rbanks

I would like to clarify as to why I have posted what I have so far on this thread.

This quote of yours:

Notice this, everyone that God saw in the future before the foundation of the world that would believe in His Son, He ordained them to eternal life.

Seems to imply that God looked into the future and decided who to elect based on whether they believed or not.

I am only saying this is how it appeared to me.

This article may shed some light into how I see it.

It can be found [url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/foreknowledge.htm]here[/url]

Grace and peace brother

L
learn

I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith (God gives the faith and repentance for them to be borne again). Thus, its a gift.

Quote
'If the decisive determination of salvation rests on the unprovoked will of man, and not on the determination of God to secure that person's salvation, then would not man receive that crowning element of glory?'End quote


We cannot use the quote above, because Jesus died so that our sins can be forgiven. How then can we say that 'man receive the crowning element of glory'.


When God created this earth, Adam etc, I tend to believe He chosed the way to be saved is through Jesus and its a free gift and those that do not want to earnestly seek Him, they will go to hell.


No, I don't think that it was foreknowledge of Jesus dying on the cross, that God elect that to happen.


However, just because of the above paragraph, we should not confuse it then, that that means God elect who He wants to save /do not save regardless of whether a person earnestly chose to seek him or not. God then gives to the 'elect person' a 'wanting to be saved' mentality, after which God will then grant him salvation.


Why do we reject the possibility that it may pleased God to put in every person, the ability to chose to earnestly seek Him, and those that does, God then will grant salvation (ie ability for the person to have faith and repent)to this person.

We cannot use the arguement that because 'God saw into the future before creation who will be saved and then choses His elect',-- then this is wrong as it looks like God is 'reacting' to humans.
What happens is that possibly God may delight in choosing this method ie of letting those that want to be saved to come to Him. He of course knows who will be saved as He sees all things past, present and future--thus He is not reacting at all to humans. After all He chose this method (we should not restrict His method of choosing due to our inability to comprehend God)

God is just. God's ways are also higher than our ways and beyond our comprehension. Also, if I remember correctly, there is supposedly to be no conflict in the Bible. Just because we humans see quite a few 'conflicts'/'disagreements' in the bible, doesn't mean that there's conflict. It just means, that we are unable to see/interpret/comprehend how the different pieces gel together.


Paris Reidhead mentioned in his sermon ' Ten Shekels and a shirt' that he went to Africa/South Africa because he was not willing for those to die without hearing the gospel. However, nobody wanted to be saved. He was very angry with God for 'sending him there' and God told him that (I paraphrase--it goes something like that)' Will not the Judge of the Earth do right? They deserve hell as they are hard hearted. I sent you there for my sake, not their sake'


David Wilkerson said that the Holy Ghost told him that 1 of the sufferings of those people going to hell will be that they will keep recalling all those times that they heard the gospel and refused to be save. In a way, those that have heard the gospel will suffer more than those that did not hear it

Leonard Ravenhill mentioned that he believed Jesus was weeping in 1 of the bible scenes because the 'Jews' were hardened and that they were going to hell.

Do the above 3 situations then show that we humans are also given a choice as to whether we chose to seek God or not


I believe in the bible it mentions that 'nobody can say that God was not just'. Now, if God is just, then how can 'the elect people' be as mentioned by some here? We can say that God is all powerful, He is the creator, He can chose what He wants to do because He is the creator, but can everyone say then that He is just?


Let us not restrict God's method just because we are unable to comprehend.

The bible does mention 'elect people', predestined etc but lets not forget, it doesn't tell us how God chose his 'elect people'. The bible does however mention that 'those who seek Him, he will not reject'

Can one feel the guilt of witnessing to someone (say Mrs A) if they think that Mrs A may not have been granted the chance to choose whether she wants to seek God. What happens if Mrs A is a loved one, then it would be even more guilt when we worked so hard to convert her but she is not responding and we start thinking that maybe we should not have tried so hard as God may not want her to be saved. Not only that, we start feeling very guilty to her as well.


There are some things that we are not meant to know and possibly how God choses His 'elect people' may very well be one of them.

R
rbanks

Thanks for your post learn, I really enjoyed reading it. I would say I agree more with your post.

Here is something for us all to think about.

If you are born of the Holy Spirit then you are God’s elect and because I am born of the Holy Spirit I am God’s elect. Praise is to God!!!

You may say that you believe certain individuals were destined to be God’s elect before they had an opportunity to hear the gospel and that others will be lost for eternity because that is just the way God wanted it to be. But this makes it appear like God didn’t love some of his creation, but we just don’t know why He created them to go to Hell.

I say that God wants to save everybody if only their eyes would be opened to the truth (I know the apostle Paul was doing everything he could to see more saved). This may sound like man would be getting some glory but I don’t believe that is the case because without the grace of God, all is hopeless.

I guess I had rather be accused of man getting a little glory (which I don’t believe) than sounding like God created some just to go to hell. I see God different than that. I don’t see how we are giving God glory by accusing Him of creating people to go to Hell.

Blessings to all! -rbanks

H
hmmhmm

If you are born of the Holy Spirit then you are God’s elect and because I am born of the Holy Spirit I am God’s elect. Praise is to God!!!

I think 1 John can show us if we are in Gods elect, it is hard but it is there, we know many will belive they are in the elect, but never knew him matt 7.

another thing is, we look at predestination as a huge lottery before time way back in eternity. I think that is wrong thinking-

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

we see clearly, if we are predestinated, its not to go to heaven as some say, its to holy and without blame before him in love

so again, no matter if you hold tightly to a predestinarian doctrine, if you are not becoming like Jesus your not one of the elect, even if we intellectually think we are.

if it does not free us from sin we should be worried.

R
rbanks


hmmhmm wrote:

so again, no matter if you hold tightly to a predestinarian doctrine, if you are not becoming like Jesus your not one of the elect, even if we intellectually think we are.

if it does not free us from sin we should be worried.

Thank you brother I agree 100% because God will have a holy people and a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

Blessings!

T
tjservant

Brother rbanks

I hope you find some time to check out the article I suggested. I believe you will glean much from it. It might be that we share more than you think. Please give it a read.

T
tjservant

Some of the best writings I have ever read on holiness were by Calvinists. I would suggest J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness, to anyone.

T
tjservant

another thing is, we look at predestination as a huge lottery before time way back in eternity. I think that is wrong thinking-

You are right it is not like a lottery. You provided the answer it in the scripture you posted.

Eph 1:5 "according to the good pleasure of his will"

R
rbanks


tjservant wrote:
Brother rbanks

I hope you find some time to check out the article I suggested. I believe you will glean much from it. It might be that we share more than you think. Please give it a read.

Thank you brother TJ,

Thank you for the article I was very blessed by reading it.

I was thrilled reading about 2Pe. 3:9, because I believe the way he does concerning that scripture and others.

I assume He is a Calvinist, and if He is, I can agree more with him than John MacArthur, Pink, and some others. Even though I know God has revealed a lot to them.

Thanks brother, I really do mean it, because some of the Calvinists are so hard about things they think they know so much about like talking about no freewill or the idol of the free will but He was refreshing concerning sovereignty and freewill.

I really do like theopenlife though and can really see Jesus in his writings. It doesn't bother me, that I don't see everything like He does, for I know he is a brother in the Lord.

Blessings to all!

L
learn

In Corrie Ten Boom's book, her father was a Calvinist and it seems to her he talked a lot about predestination. When she asked her father what predestination meant, he said : 'The grounds on which I build my faith is not in me but in the faithfulness of God'

Just some thoughts

It cannot be a 'lottery' when one knows who will be saved or not ahead of time and still chose to apply the method. Don't forget, God wants a relationship with us, if he wanted someone to obey him without a choice of deciding, then I believe the bible would be very different from what it is now.

I love Paul Washer's sermons but when I heard him, I was saying to myself, he surely will have some weakness in his sermon as God wants us to look to Him and not somebody else for the final authority in his teaching. (After all, it will be dangerous when a time comes when a person trust more in a preacher than the bible. Every person is liable to be in error somewhere but not God)

Hell is God's wrath poured out on mankind. God is angry at sin and sinners. Sin is doing something that is displeasing to God (that earlier sentence is mine). If a man has no choice to seek the Lord, then how can he be guilty of sin, since he does not understand his sinful nature. Doesn't the bible tells us that while we were still sinners, we did not understand our sins nor can we avoid them(something like that--I'm bad with memorizing verses)


Sometimes we try to give God all the glory, but in trying to do so, unknowingly end up limiting His choices/methods/sovereignty. Sometimes too, we tend make the bible so hard to understand, instead of reading and understanding it like a child. I think all of us including myself are guilty of these at 1 point or another.

Some things are best left unknown. It can become a snare to us and to those that we are sharing the gospel to. Guilt, inability to answer honestly, to preach effectively, to cause fear in those that are really trying to seek the Lord but feel that God has not chosen them etc--the list goes on.

Corrie Ten Boom's father told her not to run ahead of God when she said that she did not know whether she was brave enough to be a martyr for Christ. When the time comes to know something, God will reveal (her father used the analogy that he gave the train ticket to her just before she board the train and not earlier)

If God puts the burden in one's heart to find out, then do it as its God's will and God will show you. If not, then its better not to as it will just end with frustration, not to say God will rebuke us and if one does not listen, stricter discipline will occur.

T
theopenlife

Learn, thank you for taking time to post your experience and thoughts. Robert, thank you as well for the encouraging word.

Learn, you wrote,

I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith.

I believe the verse says, "By grace, through faith."

I do not believe faith is anything other than the appointed means through which God gives the benefits of His grace, and that He gives that faith to whom He chooses. Not that faith is a thing, per say, which can be held or felt, to be given, but that God provides the change of nature to produce the innate response of faith.

I agree, the elect are those who earnestly seek God. But I believe further that their seeking resulted from election to grace, rather than being the cause of it.

L
learn

.

L
learn


theopenlife wrote:
Learn, you wrote,

I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith.

I believe the verse says, "By grace, through faith."

I agree, the elect are those who earnestly seek God. But I believe further that their seeking resulted from election to grace, rather than being the cause of it.

openlife
Yes, I made a mistake. It should be by grace through faith. Thanks for pointing it out.

I tend not to agree with your views. I think that the part that you may have chosen to support your views are Romans 9 and Matthew 22:14

However, for me it does not necessarily mean that God chose the people without giving a choice whether to seek them. I've said to myself before that the bible is a stumbling block to those that do not seek him earnestly while it is like fresh water and a living guide (to show, encourage, warn and assure) to those that does. Those that do not seek him earnestly may choose to quit as they feel despaired with those verses.

If there are so many verses and clear ones at that asking people to seek Him and no verse on how God choses His elect, then we should always follow the clear and many verses.

Romans 9 to me is just a stumbling block. I do not know how to explain it properly unless I want to spend huge amounts of time thinking how to explain it(its like the discussion on how people argue that 'salvation cannot be lost' on certain verses that seem to imply it can be lost). Also maybe the most damaging is Roman 9:17 where it says God raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose. Now, I don't know greek but how I can reconcile this is that the word 'raised' may be that Pharaoh is given all these power and position of authority (aka'raised')

Matthew 22:14 on 'for many are invited, but few are chosen', it does not also say how God chose His people. To me, to read that it means God chose His people without giving people a chance, then I just find it hard to reconcile with so many other verses in the bible asking us to seek Him, for example Isaiah 55, 56.
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon

I'll repeat this
If there are so many verses and clear ones at that asking people to seek Him and no verse on how God choses His elect, then we should always follow the clear and many verses.


If God has indeed chosen his people without giving people a choice of whether to come to Him, then practically everybody (inclusive of those that believe the above) has preached a 'partially true gospel' because practically nobody will say that 'you may not be chosen by God in their message when they say to come to God for salvation'. And I for one don't think that I can have peace knowing that when I tell others about the gospel, I'm not telling the full truth and witholding something important. I don't think there is anywhere in the bible that mention for us to tell a 'partially true gospel'. By doing so, I believe we are sinning as although our intentions are good (ie not to frighten people away), we are still consciously telling a partial truth. And could it be that partial truth is a lie in God's eye? And I also don't recall the gospel mentioning that 'God choses people without regards to whether they want to be saved or not'

S
sermonindex

Jesus will never let me go, Praise His name.

He knows me, knows my heart, and He loves me, warts, flaws and all.

"come to Me", He says.

Oh thank You Jesus!!!

mercy, You had mercy on me Jesus.

I owe You my life, it is Yours.

R
rbanks

Brother learn thanks again for posting on this thread. I am glad you joined SI and I have been blessed by reading your posts. I recently joined myself, because I wanted to join with others concerning genuine revival and also for development in my spiritual walk.

Writing is a weakness for me but this site is helping. I want to be able to communicate better in writing. Reading posts on this site has been both challenging and refreshing. I am learning from others on here and seeing things in a different light. I believe the more we understand where others are coming from, the less judgmental we are. I don't want to be guilty of judging a matter before I have really heard it. I pray to be more sensitive to the Spirit of God and the need of others.

I have taken a quote from your post that I very much agree with you, that many people stumble over and lose a lot of freedom in witnessing their faith to others believing that all can be saved and that God desires to save them.


learn wrote:
Romans 9 to me is just a stumbling block. I do not know how to explain it properly unless I want to spend huge amounts of time thinking how to explain it(its like the discussion on how people argue that 'salvation cannot be lost' on certain verses that seem to imply it can be lost). Also maybe the most damaging is Roman 9:17 where it says God raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose. Now, I don't know greek but how I can reconcile this is that the word 'raised' may be that Pharaoh is given all these power and position of authority (aka'raised')

Here is a quote from an article that TJ gave me which I very much appreciated.

“Romans 9, 10, 11 are the deepest passages in the Scriptures on the sovereignty of God. John 6:37 gives us sovereignty and freewill in one passage. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth." I used to read that and say God would elect to have all saved. Companion to that verse is 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Some say everywhere we read the word "all", we should substitute the word "elect". These would have 2 Peter 3:9 read, "And God is longsuffering to usward [that means elect] not willing that any should perish [that means elect] that all should come to repentance." No, Sir! That's not talking about elect. The Bible says that God is not willing that anybody go to Hell. God said to Israel through Ezekiel, "... as I live I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil way." Jesus wept over a city that rejected Him,”


I believe some try to go so deep in theology that they can’t truly relate to people in the real world. I think some get addicted to their theology. They can’t even communicate with others without theological terms. A person believing in the promises of God to the elect is a most comforting thing. But when people try to go so deep as to explain it by their own theological understanding of how God chooses the elect then they can lose a real freedom in believing everybody can be saved.

There is so much more in that article that TJ gave me that I would recommend for anyone here to read.


I want to study and rightly divide the word of truth and never believe anything that would cause me to depart from the word of God. I may not know just exactly how a person became the elect but I am truly happy and free about “whosoever that believeth” meaning that everybody can be saved if they accept the conditions of salvation in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Doctrine is good if it is coming out of the Life of God because life will continually be in it. But when doctrine is producing death then we should stop trying to get life to come from that doctrine and get back to the Life of God and go again from there.

Blessings to all!

B
BeYeDoers

When reading Romans 9 in regards to Pharaoh, you must keep in mind the OT account of him. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and God strengthened that hardening to lead to his end (the Hebrew is "hardened" re: Pharaoh and "strengthened" re: God)

As far as the cry of the damned in Romans 9, if you ever witness, you'll find out that they aren't angry with God for "justification by election" and "condemnation by non-election" but because God justifies by grace through faith and not by works. They think God should justify by works, which they think are good (which is why the law is necessary, per Romans 6 and 7).

God fits one vessel for glory and the other for destruction based on the death of Christ and His choice only, by grace through faith. The same lump, rotten man, not on any works, but grace through faith.

T
tjservant

This reply is to all

Thank you all for such a kind and gentle spirited dialog. It is a joy to discus our understanding of the ways of our Lord and Savior.

I believe election is clearly revealed in the Bible. I also believe it is equally clear that it is based "according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph). God said, “I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy”, and “My ways are not your ways.” I do not understand all the details, but I do see it in scripture.

That being said…I will also add that I completely believe in the responsibility of the believer. These statements may seem to conflict, but I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. I accept the paradoxes found through out the Bible. My understanding is the only thing that places limits. Many Calvinists of the past were simply accepting of these two seemingly contradictory ideas. Charles Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle, both staunch Calvinists, spoke of this dilemma. As for me, I cannot deny one or the other. I have simply resigned myself to believing both, knowing that God understands and that is all that matters.

Many try to have one or the other. I believe this is one of the largest problems and that it often results in ignoring certain verses and/or talking them out of context and twisting them. Hyper-Calvinists have done much damage in this area. There are many people today that come against Calvinism when they are actually having a problem with Hyper-Calvinistic ideas. Charles Spurgeon often spoke out against this perverted doctrine.

We must always remember…no one will be in hell that does not deserve it.

Repent and believe.

Grace and peace

L
learn

Thank you all. I especially needed Beyedoers and rbanks (re: the article) last 2 posts.

If both rbanks and tjservant do not mind, is it possible to post the article given by tjservant to rbanks. I think it will help us including myself.

I should have clarified myself when I say Romans 9 is a stumbling block. 1 thing about the bible I find is that it never just accomplishes 1 or 2 things. The bible is like 'having many layers and dimensions' of knowledge, truth etc. We think that a particular passage apply to 1 or 2 things only, but in actuality it applies to many more and when the time comes, it will reveal another layer of itself. Romans 9 like all the other chapters I believe has this ability too.

I'm no scholar. For me, I always try to understand it from a child and father perspective and also the 'simplest perspective'. Later on I changed it to adopted child and father perspective. I hope later on I will be able to understand it from a servant and master perspective also when I mature in my walk. As an adopted child, if God is willing to accept you with all your shortcomings, its a feeling of intense gratefulness and love.

However, if God does chose his elect without regards as to allowing someone to come to him or not and may make/raise/allow someone to be borne to show His glory and later cast him to hell without letting the person a choice to come to Him, then as an adopted child, the adopted child will not feel completely safe at all because he will always be wondering if his adoption (especially when he feels at a stage where God's presence is far or when he is a new Christian learning to undersand God) is nothing more than God 'using' him for this purpose. How can he feel completely save in God's arm if God can and willingly chose some to suffer Hell--I cannot comprehend? He will also be wondering whether 'he was/is/going to earnestly seek God as he will never know his heart as well as God knows his heart, and therefore maybe he is not earnestly seeking God--thus, saying that God did not put into him this wantingness to seek Him earnestly as he was not chosen by God

That thought scares me greatly and scares me more than the appealing idea that God choses His elect without regards for giving humans a choice to come to him. It scares me no end.


I tend to believe that sometimes God allow and may even get people to write things that are not entirely true/true to mold others (in many areas and not necessarily on that particular topic) and to be a stumbling block to others.

I want to have perfect love for God but how can I really have it if I'm always so afraid that He might not chose me and have been leading me along (example thinking that I have the Holy Ghost in me etc) for the ride. At this stage, I'm not willing to believe it because it will be just a stumbling block to me. I do believe that this topic will have lots of things to learn for me and others and not just on 'who the elect are'. Sometimes God confound/puzzle/break us to build us up to be better.

L
learn


tjservant wrote:
I believe election is clearly revealed in the Bible. I also believe it is equally clear that it is based "according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph). God said, “I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy”, and “My ways are not your ways.” I do not understand all the details, but I do see it in scripture.

It is true that God will have mercy on whom He wants. It is true that there is an elect people. My concern is that we are trying to negate a 'method' on how God choses His 'elect people' (ie people are not given free will to choose to come to Him). As far as I know, no where is it stated in the bible that God will not save anyone that earnestly seek Him and that those that earnestly seek Him are those that He chose to put that 'wantingness to seek Him' in their hearts whereas for the others that He does not chose, he does not give them this feeling. I know that there are verses that He mention about 'us wanting to seek Him etc' but I think that it may have been misinterpreted to mean that
God choses/elects whom He wants without giving the chance for people to choose to come to Him. There are some that I believe God will certainly choose without the humans say in this--example the prophets

When I was first taught Christianity, it was all about our free will on whether we chose to come to Christ. Now many years later, it seems to be that 'we have no will at all on whether we chose to come to Christ'.

For those of us who believe that we are really Christians, don't we all know that we are given a choice to 'sin/sin not on certain things'. That's why there is rebuke and discipline by God when we sin. There's a choice here. To then say that some others are not given a choice to come to Him seems so alien when 'real Christians are allowed a choice to sin/sin not with the repercussions of God rebuking/disciplining them'


Many of us here think that only a remnant of people will be saved. I cannot comprehend that God would so willingly cast out so many to Hell without giving them a chance to come to Him.

I'm willing to accept that I do not understand the seemingly 'contradictory' passages in the bible. What I'm not willing to do is try to force an understanding of the bible when I don't feel a need to/called (by God) to do so

I'm aware that people tend to reject Calvinism because they mistook Hyper Calvinism as Calvinism. When I first read Calvinism, I was scared but certain things told me to dig further and what I found was Calvinism was ok if its stated correctly. However, my digging is not extremely deep, so not exactly sure where the Calvinism and not Hyper Calvinism stand on how God choses his people. I have respect for both Spurgeon and J C Ryle. I've not read much of their works but somehow there's a feeling of I can trust them to a fair bit of extent. How accurate my feelings are, I will only know when I delve further into them. I also read vaguely somewhere that it seems that somehow either Spurgeon/Calvin's institute/website (not sure what it is) has been corrupted with a different type of Calvinist than the true Calvinist that makes more sense to me (not Hyper Calvinist)


At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations

D
davym



At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations

Wise words.

T
tjservant

What I'm not willing to do is try to force an understanding of the bible when I don't feel a need to/called (by God) to do so

This is Good. I'm not sure understanding can be forced anyway.

At this stage, I'm more interested in working on a deepening of my understanding of the bible rather than theology papers written by preachers. I'm also less interested in the different denominations--Methodist/Calvinist etc as I prefer to base my understanding on the bible rather than man made church denominations

I find that the more time I spend in the Word the more I understand other peoples theology, whether I embrace it or not.

I believe many folks try to fit their limited understanding of theology into their limited understanding of Scriptures and vice versa. I have certainly been guilty of this.

Many of us are simply at different points along the same path. Revelation and understanding is different for different folks. Let each man be fully convinced.

I don’t believe anything is more important that actual Holy Spirit guided Bible study. Scripture should be the starting…and ending point. I sometimes have questions and I believe there is nothing wrong with asking our brothers and sister here on SI or consulting commentaries. It’s kinda’ like having a wise old Uncle that has walked with the Lord for many years living across the street, only in my case…he lives on my bookshelf. It all must be weighed against Scripture.

L
learn

I'm very willing to end my participation in this thread heare as its giving me a headache now. Plus I believe that this is as far as what I'm suppose to understand at this stage. I don't feel any urges to explore further currently on this matter. If I go further, I will just have more doubts, less faith and always questioning myself as to my salvation and thus be ineffective.

R
rbanks

Just got back and thanks everyone!

Brother learn, I very much see your point and I am in very much agreement with you.

To my strong Calvinist brethren!

Let’s say we all believe from the teachings of the bible that God is Love. He loves all His creation and desires for all of them to repent and believe in the finished work of Christ.
He has predestined all of the elect to be formed to the image of Christ in true holiness before God.

Here are a few more questions.

Do you believe God loves all and has predestined all His elect that He has chosen in Christ to eternal life?

Do you believe that everybody in Hell is only there because they never had an opportunity to be saved because God did not want them to be part of the elect or because they rejected his plan?

Is it possible that many who do not accept Christ will know that they could have been one of the elect if they had not rejected God’s plan of salvation?

Blessings to all!

H
HomeFree89

God does the calling and we use our free will to choose to answer.

H
hmmhmm

\t


The Sovereignty of God

Who wouldst not fear Thee, O Lord God of Hosts, most high and most terrible? For Thou art Lord alone. Thou has made heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth and all things that are therein, and in Thy hand is the soul of every living thing, Thou sittest king upon the flood; yea, Thou sittest king forever. Thou art a great king over all the earth. Thou art clothed with strength; honor and majesty are before Thee. Amen.

God’s sovereignty is the attribute by which He rules His entire creation, and to be sovereign God must be all-knowing, all-powerful, and absolutely free. The reasons are these:

Were there even one datum of knowledge, however small, un-known to God, His rule would break down at that point. To be Lord over all the creation, He must possess all knowledge. And were God lacking one infinitesimal modicum of power, that lack would end His reign and undo His kingdom; that one stray atom of power would belong to someone else and God would be a limited ruler and hence not sovereign.

Furthermore, His sovereignty requires that He be absolutely free, which means simply that He must be free to do whatever He wills to do anywhere at any time to carry out His eternal purpose in every single detail without interference. Were He less than free He must be less than sovereign.

To grasp the idea of unqualified freedom requires a vigorous effort of the mind. We are not psychologically conditioned to understand freedom except in its imperfect forms. Our concepts of it have been shaped in a world where no absolute freedom exists. Here each natural object is dependent upon many other objects, and that dependence limits its freedom.

Wordsworth at the beginning of his “Prelude” rejoiced that he had escaped the city where he had long been pent up and was “now free, free as a bird to settle where I will.” But to be free a bird is not to be free at all. The naturalist knows that the supposedly free bird actually lives its entire life in a cage made of fears, hungers, and instincts; it is limited by weather conditions, varying air pressures, the local food supply, predatory beasts, and that strangest of all bonds, the irresistible compulsion to stay within the small plot of land and air assigned it by birdland comity. The freest bird is, along with every other created thing, held in constant check by a net of necessity. Only God is free.

God is said to be absolutely free because no one and no thing can hinder Him or compel Him or stop Him. He is able to do as He pleases always, everywhere, forever. To be thus free means also that He must possess universal authority. That He has unlimited power we know from the Scriptures and may deduce from certain other of His attributes. But what about His authority?

Even to discuss the authority of Almighty God seems a bit meaningless, and to question it would be absurd. Can we imagine the Lord God of Hosts having to request permission of anyone or to apply for anything to a higher body? To whom would God go for permission? Who is higher than the Highest? Who is mightier than the Almighty? Whose position antedates that of the Eternal? At whose throne would God kneel? Where is the greater one to whom He must appeal? “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

The sovereignty of God is a fact well established in the Scriptures and declared aloud by the logic of truth. But admittedly it raises certain problems which have not to this time been satisfactorily solved: These are mainly two. The first is the presence in the creation of those things which God cannot approve, such as evil, pain, and death. If God is sovereign He could have prevented their coming into existence. Why did He not do so?

The Zend-Avesta, sacred book of Zoroastrianism, loftiest of the great non-Biblical religions, got around this difficulty neatly enough by postulating a theological dualism. There were two Gods, Ormazd and Ahriman, and these between them created the world. The good Ormazd made all good things and the evil Ahriman made the rest. It was quite simple. Ormazd had no sovereignty to worry about, and apparently did not mind sharing his prerogatives with another.

For the Christian this explanation will not do, for it flatly contradicts the truth taught so emphatically throughout the whole Bible, that there is one God and that He alone created the heaven and the earth and all the things that are therein. God’s attributes are such as to make impossible the existence of another God. The Christian admits that he does not have the final answer to the riddle of permitted evil. But he knows what that answer is not. And he knows that the Zend-Avesta does not have it either.

While a complete explanation of the origin of sin eludes us, there are a few things we do know. In His sovereign wisdom God has permitted evil to exist in carefully restricted areas of His creation, a kind of fugitive outlaw whose activities are temporary and limited in scope. In doing this God has acted according to His infinite wisdom and goodness. More than that no one knows at present; and more than that no one needs to know. The name of God is sufficient guarantee of the perfection of His works.

Another real problem created by the doctrine of the divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he can not exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?

The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.

Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, “What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.

Perhaps a homely illustration might help us to understand. An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man’s freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God’s sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfilment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.

We know that God will fulfil every promise made to the prophets; we know that sinners will some day be cleansed out of the earth; we know that a ransomed company will enter into the joy of God and that the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father; we know that God’s perfections will yet receive universal acclamation, that all created intelligences will own Jesus Christ Lord to the glory of God the Father, that the present imperfect order will be done away, and a new heaven and a new earth be established forever.
Toward all this God is moving with infinite wisdom and perfect precision of action. No one can dissuade Him from His purposes; nothing turn Him aside from His plans. Since He is omniscient, there can be no unforeseen circumstances, no accidents. As He is sovereign, there can be no countermanded orders, no breakdown in authority; and as He is ominpotent, there can be no want of power to achieve His chosen ends. God is sufficient unto Himself for all these things.

In the meanwhile things are not as smooth as this quick outline might suggest. The mystery of iniquity doth already work. Within the broad field of God’s sovereign, permissive will the deadly conflict of good with evil continues with increasing fury. God will yet have His way in the whirlwind and the storm, but the storm and the whirlwind are here, and as responsible beings we must make our choice in the present moral situation.

Certain things have been decreed by the free determination of God, and one of these is the law of choice and consequences. God has decreed that all who willingly commit themselves to His Son Jesus Christ in the obedience of faith shall receive eternal life and become sons of God. He has also decreed that all who love darkness and continue in rebellion against the high authority of heaven shall remain in a state of spiritual alienation and suffer eternal death at last.

Reducing the whole matter to individual terms, we arrive at some vital and highly personal conclusions. In the moral conflict now raging around us whoever is on God’s side is on the winning side and can not lose; whoever is on the other side is on the losing side and can not win. Here there is no chance, no gamble. There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on but no freedom to negotiate the results of the choice once it is made. By the mercy of God we may repent a wrong choice and alter the consequences by making a new and right choice. Beyond that we can not go.

The whole matter of moral choice centers around Jesus Christ. Christ stated it plainly: “He that is not with me is against me,” and “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” The gospel message embodies three distinct elements: an announcement, a command, and a call. It announces the good news of redemption accomplished in mercy; it commands all men everywhere to repent and it calls all men to surrender to the terms of grace by believing on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

We must all choose whether we will obey the gospel or turn away in unbelief and reject its authority. Our choice is our own, but the consequences of the choice have already been determined by the sovereign will of God, and from this there is no appeal.

The Lord descended from above,
And bowed the heavens most high,
And underneath His feet He cast
The darkness of the sky.

On cherubim and seraphim
Full royally He rode,
And on the wings of mighty winds
Came flying all abroad.

He sat serene upon the floods,
Their fury to restrain;
And He, as sovereign Lord and King,
For evermore shall reign.
Psalm paraphrase,
by Thomas Sternhold


Chapter 22 from Knowledge of the Holy

By A.W Tozer

T
tjservant

I would also suggest reading this article originally posted [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23799&forum=34]here[/url]

Spurgeon's Theology: Embracing Biblical Paradox

The merits of a theology that advocates belief in Scripture's revealed truths concerning God and man...even when we can't reconcile those truths.

by Randy Alcorn

Nineteenth century London pastor, preacher and writer Charles Haddon Spurgeon was a Calvinist. As such, he was opposed by anti-Calvinists and a variety of non-Calvinists. He recognized their salvation and sincerity, but believed their view of God was often too small, and hence their view of man too big.

Spurgeon's big view of God motivated him to take seriously God's commands to reach out to the needy. He had a deep concern for caring for the poor and spreading the gospel. Spurgeon built seventeen homes to help care for elderly women, and a large school for hundreds of children. Spurgeon and his church built homes for orphans in London, rescuing them from starvation and vice on the streets. He tirelessly preached the gospel and encouraged his church to reach out to the lost, extending to them the gospel of Christ.

For these good deeds, Spurgeon was aggressively opposed by another theological group: the hyper-Calvinists, a fatalistic dogmatic Calvinist minority. Among other things, they disdained his practice of indiscriminately preaching the gospel to the unsaved, and inviting people in meetings to come forward or otherwise respond to the gospel. This struck them as putting salvation in man's hands rather than recognizing it was in God's. Spurgeon believed salvation was in God's hands, but that men needed to embrace it, and that God wanted men to hear the gospel and wanted him to preach it. (See Iain Murray's Spurgeon vs. Hyper Calvinism: The Battle for Gospel Preaching. I'm indebted to Murray for about half of these citations from Spurgeon.)

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:3-6, especially "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" and "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all," Spurgeon said something dramatically different than the hyper-Calvinists:

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. 'All men,' say theyÑthat is, 'some men': as if the Holy Ghost could not have said 'some men' If he had meant some men. 'All men,' say they; 'that is, some of all sorts of men': as if the Lord could not have said 'All sorts of men' if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written 'all men,' and unquestionably he means all men. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away;he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. ... My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God.(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 26: 49-52)

Spurgeon didn't try to reconcile every paradox or apparent contradiction in the Bible. He said:

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)

Spurgeon warned against theologies that attempt to reconcile, by means of shortsighted human logic, every apparent biblical inconsistency:

Men who are morbidly anxious to possess a self-consistent creed, a creed which will put together and form a square like a Chinese puzzle, are very apt to narrow their souls. Those who will only believe what they can reconcile will necessarily disbelieve much of divine revelation. Those who receive by faith anything which they find in the Bible will receive two things, twenty things, ay, or twenty thousand things, though they cannot construct a theory which harmonizes them all. ("Faith," Sword and Trowel, 1872)

Both Arminianism and Calvinism sometimes ignore or minimize one teaching of God's Word because they can't understand how it fits with another. So they choose between them, instead of believing both. Some embrace God's sovereignty, then redefine human choice and responsibility in a way that makes it no longer meaningful choice or meaningful responsibility. Some embrace human free choice and redefine God's sovereignty and election in light of it, reducing God's "sovereignty" to merely seeing in advance that people will choose him, so then based on their foreseen decisions, he "chooses" them; or seeing what bad people will do but being unable to stop them, God is forced to try to make the best of it. (As opposed to "You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good," Genesis 50:20). More recently, with Open Theology, God is actually said to be unable to see in advance exactly what choices people will make! (What's next? God is too tired of this big job of running the universe, and he needs us to take the throne to help keep things going?)

Scripture reveals that God's will is effective and He is sovereign in all things and that man is free and responsible for all his actions. Spurgeon wrote, "Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is to believe them both."(New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4, 343.)

In an early sermon on "Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility" Spurgeon introduced his subject this way:

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once...Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there is no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free to be responsible, I am driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestinates, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is the fault of our weak judgment...it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. (New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4, 337).

Years later, in another sermon, Spurgeon said,

I believe in predestination, yea, even in its very jots and tittles. I believe that the path of a single grain of dust in the March wind is ordained and settled by a decree which cannot be violated; that every word and thought of man, every flittering of a sparrow's wing, every flight of a fly...that everything, in fact is foreknown and foreordained. But I do equally believe in the free agency of man, that man acts as he wills, especially in moral operationsÑchoosing the evil with a will that is unbiased by anything that comes from God, biased only by his own depravity of heart and the perverseness of his habits; choosing the right too, with perfect freedom, though sacredly guided and led by the Holy Spirit...I believe that man is as accountable as if there were no destiny whatever...Where these two truths meet I do not know, nor do I want to know. They do not puzzle me, since I have given up my mind to believing them both. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 15, 458).

Spurgeon also said,

It is my firm belief that everything in heaven, and earth and hell, will be seen to be, in the long run, part of the divine plan; yet never is God the author or the accomplice of sin...sin rests with man, wholly with man, and yet by some strange overruling force, Godlike and mysterious, like the existence of God, his supreme will is accomplished...to deny this truth because we cannot understand it, were to shut ourselves out of a great deal of important knowledge. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 15, 458).

Spurgeon was first a Biblicist, and only second a Calvinist. (Though imperfect and capable of misinterpreting Scripture, for the most part he was led to his beliefs by Scripture, not Calvinism.) His Calvinism didn't inhibit him, but inspired him to offer the gospel to all men. He believed that more sinners could be saved if the gospel was preached to them. He didn't try to harmonize this with God's election, since Scripture clearly teaches both. He believed his responsibility was to preach the gospel, and that God, in his sovereignty, would use both preaching and prayer to produce a greater harvest of souls. He had prayer meetings Monday nights, and before preaching services. His classic book The Soul Winner is still in print.

Graciously, Spurgeon acknowledged the need for love and kindness between sincere Christians with different doctrines. He also acknowledged that some (though far from all) theological differences were largely semantic:

But I do maintain there should be, and there must be if our churches are to be healthy and sound, a constant adherence to the fundamental doctrines of divine truth. I should be prepared to go a very long way for charity's sake, and admit that very much of the discussion which has existed even between Arminians and Calvinists has not been a discussion about vital truth, but about the terms in which that vital truth shall be stated. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 6:395.)

Spurgeon recognized that both Arminians and Calvinists were correct in many of their understandings of Scripture, but their mistake was in choosing one set of truths over another, rather than accepting both regardless of their apparent contradiction. He attributed our lack of understanding to our finite and fallen minds, not to problems with God or Scripture. Spurgeon put it this way:

The Calvinist has said, and said right bravely, that salvation is of grace alone; and the Arminian has said, and said most truthfully, that damnation is of man's will alone, and as the result of man's sin, and of that only. Then they have fallen out with one another. The fact is, they had each one laid hold of a truth, and if they could have put their heads together, and accepted both truths, it might have been greatly for the advantage of the Church of Christ. These two doctrines are like tram lines that you can travel on with safety and comfort, these parallel lines—ruin, of man; restoration, of God: sin, of man's will; salvation, of God's will: reprobation, of man's demerit; election, of God's free and sovereign grace: the sinner lost in hell through himself alone, the saint lifted up to heaven wholly and alone by the power and grace of God. Get those two truths thoroughly engraven upon your heart, and you will then hold comprehensively the great truths of Scripture. You will not need to crowd them into one narrow system of theology, but you will have a sort of duplicate system. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 41:500.)

Our desire for logical consistency, as we understand it, can become our God. Then we, not Scripture and not God, become our own ultimate authority. We end up ignoring, rejecting, or twisting Scripture that doesn't fit our chosen theology. On the contrary, our theology should be a reflection of Scripture itself, and wherever Scripture teaches apparently contradictory ideas, our theology should embrace those same ideas, rather than resort to a consistency which rejects part of God's revealed Word.

My Greek professor liked to say, "I would rather be comfortable with my Bible and uncomfortable with my theology, than comfortable with my theology and uncomfortable with the Bible." Theology is a very good thing—as long as it is true to Scripture, and helps us understand it, and see it in its fuller picture. When theology replaces Scripture's authority, and ends up obscuring Scripture and causing us to reinterpret it rather than accept it, that's when it interferes with rather than illuminates God's sacred revelation.

May we read Scripture and believe it, not explaining away what doesn't fit our theology, but stretching our theology to embrace the full breadth of God's revealed truth

R
rbanks

Thanks again brother hmmhmm!

You have brought another fresh anointed word to this thread.

A.W Tozer sure does bring a refreshing word to the understanding of the sovereignty of God.

I really enjoyed his words about soverignty and the man's freedom therein.

Blessings brother!

R
rbanks


tjservant wrote:

Both Arminianism and Calvinism sometimes ignore or minimize one teaching of God's Word because they can't understand how it fits with another. So they choose between them, instead of believing both. Some embrace God's sovereignty, then redefine human choice and responsibility in a way that makes it no longer meaningful choice or meaningful responsibility. Some embrace human free choice and redefine God's sovereignty and election in light of it, reducing God's "sovereignty" to merely seeing in advance that people will choose him, so then based on their foreseen decisions, he "chooses" them; or seeing what bad people will do but being unable to stop them, God is forced to try to make the best of it. (As opposed to "You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good," Genesis 50:20). More recently, with Open Theology, God is actually said to be unable to see in advance exactly what choices people will make! (What's next? God is too tired of this big job of running the universe, and he needs us to take the throne to help keep things going?)

Scripture reveals that God's will is effective and He is sovereign in all things and that man is free and responsible for all his actions. Spurgeon wrote, "Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is to believe them both."(New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4, 343.)

Thanks brother Tj for all of this article even though I only took one quote.

Brethren if we could see the truth that Tozer and Spurgeon has discovered.

May we settle upon the revealed truth in the word of God. These scriptures come to mind.

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Blessings to all!

T
tjservant

My favorite Tozer quote:

"God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, 'Oh Lord Thou knowest.' Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints." A.W. Tozer

L
learn

I may read the new posts another time.

However, I would like everyone to consider this.

1) For those that believe that God choses whoever He wants without letting man a choice on whether to come to Him, then what would these people think if :

All their family--spouse, children, parents etc except you yourself reject God. So all your family except you yourself will spend eternity in hell despite your feverish efforts in trying to save them. Seems to make sense to me ie 1 person saved out of so many--after all a remnant will be saved only and the majority go to Hell. Please think carefully.


2) Also, I read some parts of Spurgeon's autobiography. He mentioned that God does the chosing despite whether we want to or not. Some of his reasons were that because He didn't want to go to God, that we did not choose who our parents were and how we looked/behaved etc That's the reason he rejected that God elected based on 'foreknowledge of who will have faith' when someone pointed this out. I know He has other points in the bible but I'm just talking about his experience here only.

For me, the above mentioned points are not a strong enough reason to reject that people have a free will to chose God or not. After all human life is less than 100 years old. What is a 100 years compared to eternity? Can any suffering of a 100 years be comparable that of hell in eternity. Even if all your family suffer 100 years, you would still be willing if they are not in hell (as hell is worse and its for all eternity)

If one says that God choses as He will while rejecting the fact of giving us a chance to chose Him, then back to my 1st point ie :

1) For those that believe that God choses whoever He wants without letting man a choice on whether to come to Him, then what would these people think if :

All their family--spouse, children, parents etc except you yourself reject God. So all your family except you yourself will spend eternity in hell despite your feverish efforts in trying to save them. Please think carefully

John 6:37
all that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

I think John 6:40 needs to have a qualifier now if man does not have a choice to chose to come to God

R
rbanks

Brother learn,

I do hope you read two earlier posts on Tozer and Spurgeon.

They are a blessing!

R
roaringlamb

I am sorry for joining so late into the "fray".

I would ask the free-will brothers to look closely and without a preconception upon a couple of Scriptures that do indeed provide a clear portrayal of God's electing by His own choice, and that show that God gives the "new heart" that believes, not man's decision or agreeing with God.

The first of is John 6:44-
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Now please note that these are Christ's words, not Calvin or any other theologian. SO to fight these words are to fight not an interpretation, but the Lord's own declaration.

Perhaps one of the most important words in this passage is the word "can". In Greek it is the word "dunami".

Here is the definition that Thayer gives-
δύναμαι
dunamai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful

And here is Strong's-
G1410
δύναμαι
dunamai
doo'-nam-ahee
Of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible: - be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power.

So in essence, Christ Himself is firstly saying that no man has the ability, or power to come to Him.

Christ of course goes on to say make an exclusion-
"unless the Father... draws him".

Now let us look at another important word here which is "draw". In Greek it is "helko or helkuo".

Here is the Thayer's definition-
G1670
ἑλκύω / ἕλκω
helkuō / helkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

And the Strong's-
G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

The picture presented is that no one has the ability to come to Christ unless the Father drags them to Him. You cannot skirt around this, the language does not allow it. Of course one can ignore the plain meaning of the Greek words because it does not fit with a preconceived view of God or Scripture. But that is error.

I will post another verse in another post to keep this somewhat short.

L
learn

We are not skirting the issue, Roaringlamb. If you read through all the posts, you will see this has already been addressed.

R
roaringlamb

1 John 5:1 is our next text to look at.

I will be using the Analytical Literal Translation, as it captures very well what is being communicated.

"Every one believing [or, who is convinced] that Jesus is the Christ [or, the Messiah] has been begotten from God, and every one loving the One having begotten loves also the one having been begotten from [or, by] Him."

Now the Greek word that is translated, "has been begotten from God" is the word "gennao".

What is interesting about the form of this verb used here is that it is in the passive, which means that the one being begotten or born is not doing anything, but rather is being acted upon by another.

So we see that the ones who believe that Jesus is the Christ have been born "out from"(as the word ek would imply) God by His doing not theirs.

Again, we can play around with conjecture, but the Greek does not lend any credibility to the idea that man cooperates in his re-birth.

Another great verse to ponder is-
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, [b]he has caused us to be born again[/b] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Again the cause is God, not man. Take time to think upon how it is that you came to believe brethren. For we were all "dead in sin" and if this be true, we could never lift a finger to do a good work. We needed life, and that comes from God alone, man cannot produce it.

L
learn

Rbanks, I already read them before I replied. However, there is more to Spurgeon then what was mentioned in the post that you are referring to. If you see my post after Roaringlamb, you will see what I mean.

Just because we cannot reconcile/understand how people can have free will to choose God and God's sovereignty, we have decided to 'modify/change' our ability to chose to have no say in this. Its true that God's sovereignty is more important than free will--after all God is creator and He chose what he wills but that doesn't mean that we have to cancel out 'free will' just because our limited understanding cannot reconcile it.

In addition, we have decided to preach to people saying to call on the Lord for salvation (while not telling them that they may not be chosen by God)

R
roaringlamb

We are not skirting the issue, Roaringlamb. If you read through all the posts, you will see this has already been addressed.

I hadn't seen any looking at the language brought into this. It is important in this discussion to know.

Forgive me if someone did indeed mention the language used before. If they did, I do not see what the argument is?

Should we not simply bow before the words-
"But God"

L
learn

For now I stand by my belief and have said my fill and am certainly not playing with words. If I'm wrong, then may God help me see me mistake and repent of it.

Just because one cannot reconcile the conflicting verses in the bible, one choses to put their own interpretation to it. I cannot for one see how this interpretation is edifying or helpful to those that we are preaching. And its so obvious, because we pretty much never mention that fact (ie you can call on the Lord but....God may not choose you) when we try to convert people. This speaks volumes.

I do not wish to participate further in this discussion which God has not revealed how He choses his people. To do so further would be folly, waste of time and not edifying at all. Whoever who wants can continue, but I shall not unless the Holy Spirit prompts me to.

Roaringlamb, if you want, read carefully all the posts here. It has been mentioned before.

B
BeYeDoers

roaringlamb, no one is ignoring these. the question is not whether the Father's drawing is required...it obviously is. The question is, who are the ones he draws?

Also, I have never heard any Christian ever that taught we can make ourselves Born Again, so bringing such texts up in this argument is worthless.

The main problem in these discussions is that everyone sets up straw men and think blowing them down is progress.

R
rbanks

RoaringLamb it would have been nice if you hadn’t of come roaring in here on the one’s you call free will brothers.

It would have been nice if you had of thought more about the original post in this thread.

It would have been nice if you had of followed the posts and been more sensitive to the spirit of where we were.

Yes it would have been nice, but you used your free will, and done what you wanted to.

But brother since you are claiming to be one of God’s elect, at least try and humble yourself from all your superior knowledge over us, and try to see where we are and help us learn some things about the “whosoever that believeth”.

Blessings brother!

R
roaringlamb

If I have come across as proud, please forgive me. That was not my intention at all.

R
rbanks


learn wrote:

Just because one cannot reconcile the conflicting verses in the bible, one choses to put their own interpretation to it. I cannot for one see how this interpretation is edifying or helpful to those that we are preaching. And its so obvious, because we pretty much never mention that fact (ie you can call on the Lord but....God may not choose you) when we try to convert people. This speaks volumes.

Brother learn I hope that people will see what you have stated in your posts.

I also have notice that the questions I have asked and the statements BeYeDoers have stated, no one who see's man not having a choice, can explain the scriptures where it says that God is giving man a choice when he says whosoever.

At least Tozer and Spurgeon has stated man has a responsibility before God and that God in His sovereignty has given man some freedom.

Personally I think it is against the very heart of the word of God to even think that there are people who can't be save.

The bible doesn't just say that God loved but that he so loved the world ( how can greek or any other language make world mean elect).

I believe people get so deep in their theological studies until they can't even take the word of God for what it says. I don't believe anybody who is listening to the Holy Spirit will ever hear him say that there are some people who can't be saved because they were not elected.

I do believe if we listen we will hear him say pray for all the lost because Jesus died for all of them and does not want any to perish.

R
rbanks

roaringlamb,

Greetings brother in the name of Jesus!

I really do hope you will pray and help us in our study as we allow the Holy Spirit to give us greater understanding.

Love in Christ -rbanks

H
hmmhmm

I like this quote from john Calvin

No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.

John Calvin


even Calvin was quite the arminian :-P


seriusly this is a hard thing, as roaringlamb has showed from scripture, no one can be saved unless God draws them first, that is true and rigth from scripture.

but the same inspired word says God wants all men to be saved, same scripture says God wants all men to repent.

so we need to treat all scripture with the same reverence, often we chose scriptures to fit a doctrine, both sides does, its only when we accept all scriptures we get the truth.

you might not understand it, but without truth there will not be any growth, no maturing, its a blessed thing to be able to say as Tozer did, the quote from TJ.

there are many scriptures that say God saved us and it was a gift, we cant deserve or do anything to earn the gift, but you have to hold out your hand to receive it.

Most people dont, but those who do can receive grace and be saved.
most of us have received free gifts from other people, we had to accept it before it was ours.

so it is with Jesus to, we cant do anything ourselves but when we receive the gift we need stretch out our hand and receive it. in repentance and faith. Then we will be born again.

I have many brothers in both views, what is my grief i think so many overlook scripture to hold fast a doctrine. Or make verses meen other then what they say in its context.

When we read scripture honest just as they say, both calvinism and arminianism fall.

I know there are extreme calvinists, some even say God made Adam sin in the garden, God was the author of that so he later could get the glory, some say God chosen some for hell, even thou there are not one single verse in the bible that says so.

but also there are those calvinist who are more moderate and even those who can say they dont know.

anyway, i wish all blessing to all in their pursuit of the truth, just see to it whatever doctrine you may hold, that it set you free from sin, the world, and the self.

No matter what doctrine, if it does not do this it is a deception.

onward towards perfection brothers and sisters.

M
mamaluk

It would have been nice if you had of thought more about the original post in this thread.

It would have been nice if you had of followed the posts and been more sensitive to the spirit of where we were.

Yes it would have been nice, but you used your free will, and done what you wanted to.

But brother since you are claiming to be one of God’s elect, at least try and humble yourself from all your superior knowledge over us,

Nah, I dont' see you as prideful, dear Roaringlamb.

Thank you rather, for I learned quite a lot from the couple of posts you shared on this thread, they replenished of what I missed in my understanding of those texts. It's alright, brother Roaringlamb, I can use some of that superior "roaring" of Scriptures, I haven't yet seen any pride on your part, ever, on SI anyways. And I appreciate your standing down on this one, [i]that[/i] shows humility.

The Word of God must be understood and accepted as they are proclaimed, nice or not. How is one proud and not nice when one tries to share knowledge? It's perhaps not nice to place a stumbling block to our brethren even when they do not agree with us.

Does any of us has all the knowledge of Scripture, let alone full knowledge of The Christ? Did Paul even claim to only know in part?

We must all be very proud of Scripture, as It's written and proclaimed.

I am proud, all too proud, of all those who are willing to take a stand for Truth...including you Rbanks...only not to be all too dogmatic with our own version of truth, but God's Truth.

mamaluk

Ephesians 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love..

L
learn

Anything that is done without God's hand in it is foolishness. Similarly a discussion/question/defence of theology or doctrines to supposedly/really preserved the truth (no matter how sincere we are) is useless if we do not seek God beforehand and ask how we should go about it or if even we should go about it because it may do more harm than good. This usually happens when we so vigorously defend a doctrine/thought/warning without seeking God earnestly what His will is in the matter. Is there still benefit to be gained?--maybe, but it will be so much more if we would ask God and let Him direct us beforehand.

This thread was not an intellectual debate for me where defense of what one believes take precedence of asking God. It was a thread filled with anger, anguish, fear, trembling for myself and others.

I pretty much always ask God beforehand whether I should post and how I should write in this forum (although sometimes I get fed up etc. As a result I seem more 'holy' then I actually am which I do not like at all as it gives the wrong impression of who I am).

I tremble with fear whenever I write that I believe this is what God wants me to do/lead me on this verse etc--what if I'm wrong? I should just shut my mouth up. How am I going to answer at the Judgement Seat of Christ if I'm wrong? But so far, I believe God has not convicted me of this yet. I pray that it will not be in this post either.

Only in this thread and another thread (which is of no major consequence but I do repent posting it) I didn't really seek God first in my first post for guidance.

I believe I understand now the major reason I didn't seek God out on this first before posting. God wanted me to experience all the emotions to mold me further and strengthen myself in my walk with God. Even after this, there will be many lessons for me to learn from here. It has taught me many things and not just on this topic. This thread may even be useful to others (that I do not wish to guess). In my anguish, I cried out to the Lord to show me His will and guide me to verses etc. If I was wrong, let me know even if I was trembling in fright. If it was to remain a mystery, so be it. God would at certain times allay some of my anguish/fear while showing verses etc that would frighten me.

Only at the end of the journey did I finally have peace. I reject wholeheartedly the fact that man do not have free will to choose God...but even then I knew that God had to do something more for me to witness effectively without some lingering doubts as I do not want to hide something that important from people that I'm hoping to witness.

He finally did. On my walk, I saw an old man and an old woman. Tears filled my eyes and I knew it was God putting the love there. The message was clear: Do I not love them also. I can now witness effectively without feeling the guilt that I am witholding something back.

T
tjservant

so we need to treat all scripture with the same reverence, often we chose scriptures to fit a doctrine, both sides does, its only when we accept all scriptures we get the truth.

Very true hmmhmm.

Randy Alcorn had this to say on the subject:

"Our desire for logical consistency, as we understand it, can become our God. Then we, not Scripture and not God, become our own ultimate authority. We end up ignoring, rejecting, or twisting Scripture that doesn't fit our chosen theology. On the contrary, our theology should be a reflection of Scripture itself, and wherever Scripture teaches apparently contradictory ideas, our theology should embrace those same ideas, rather than resort to a consistency which rejects part of God's revealed Word."

As far as election goes, Charles Spurgeon puts it into words much better than I.

“That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. – C.H. Spurgeon (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)

R
rbanks


mamaluk wrote:

Nah, I dont' see you as prideful, dear Roaringlamb.

RoaringLamb, I don’t see you as being prideful either and respect you more for showing humility.

I ask you to forgive me where I have offended you with the strong words because I believe there could have been a better choice of words if my vocabulary was larger.

I also will admit that there was a slight fear that this thread was about to get hijacked from the real honesty that was being reveal by the people posting on this thread.

I have seen others get hijacked with hyper theology that kills the spirit of understanding where we are and what we really need to see.

I apologize again and very much appreciated your display of humility, which was evident for all to see.

Blessings brother!

R
roaringlamb

Brother rbanks,

I understand how hyper-Calvinists can be a bit scary, and also wrong. But I am not one at all.

I once was proud and arrogant, and apart from God's grace would be so every minute of every day. Ahh but He has a way of using rods to strike away that pride.

For me one such rod was the confrontation I had to endure when I began to search the Doctrines of Grace for myself rather than leaning upon what I had been taught. It was not fun at all, but it has blessed me beyond belief to know the great grace of my Father to me in Christ.

One of these days if you have not already, do a search on the topic of "Calvinism" on sermonindex, and I think you'll find more in depth posts from myself and others which may prove fruitful to you.

But as any Calvinist(if I must identify myself with this nickname)would say, "only God can reveal these things, and man cannot."

If I can be a vessel or tool to help someone see Christ as their all sufficient Savior, it is a privilege.

By the way, no apology necessary. It is always good to check myself to make sure.

God's grace to you brother.

L
Logic


rbanks wrote:
Thank you theopenlife for the writing by Pink, and I did enjoy a lot of what I read, but still there is the part of the mystery of God’s elect.

I read the first part and some of the second part and agreed with most and very thankful for the knowledge of the word in this dear brother’s life and teaching. As I was reading the [b]mystery[/b] became clearer to me.

The truth of scripture is wonderful concerning God’s election. I agree with all the truth in scripture He has found but the [b]mystery[/b] concerning election that he has come to try to explain I just disagree. Let met tell you why, because I believe when God says he so loved the world and Jesus died for everyone that is clear.

Understanding also became clearer where the scripture says "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). I believe the [b]mystery[/b]is in God’s foreknowledge. We know that God elected us before the foundation of the world because with God the end is always contained in the beginning.

When I see the word "mystery" I would like to clear something up about the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

There is a difference between a mystery and a contradiction.

A mystery is something we do not fully understand yet. For example, the trynity.

A contradiction is something that we do comprehend, but it is incompatible with reality and truth. We comprehend that it can be, and that it is real because it makes sense. However, it is a contradiction to reality and truth, it can not be.

For example the teaching that God controls everything by His "sovereign will". We are apart of that everything that He controls, and if He controls us, and we sin, He is controlling us to sin. This makes God is the author of sin, yet the contradiction is that man is responsible for sin which God controlled.

We can comprehend this, however, it is a contradiction.

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