By His Stripes

Thank you for bringing up the topic, hopefully this thread will not get out of hand like the other. Let us each seek and pray to be humble and charitable in our discussions (something this forum usually excels at) and always look to the Bible to tell us what God wants to tell us, not necessarily what we want to hear. Lord, please have us truly manifest the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). If anyone needs more motivation, read the 3 preceding verses (Gal. 5:19-21).1 Timothy 5:23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.Timothy suffered from "often infirmities," what was Paul's advice? Does Paul even tell Timothy to pray? No doubt Paul wasn't saying not to do so, but neither was he giving any indication that Timothy should expect full healing of every single infirmity (in this life).2 Corinthians 125 Of such a one will I glory, yet of myself I will not glory, except in mine infirmities.6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool, for I will say the truth. But now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or than he heareth of me.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.8 For this thing, I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.9 And He said unto me, "My grace is sufficent for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore will I glory rather in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in privations, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then am I strong.Here we see not only Paul afflicted by an apparently rather severe infirmity (some suggest blindness, I don't know for sure), but that God had a good purpose for it and explicitly refused to remove it at that time.

I know that Christ was put on the cross for my salvation. However, the Bible also says that every handwritting of ordinace that was against us, God nailed it to Jesus on the tree. And as we read in 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (KJV)hi bornagainI want to say as a start that I believe in the power of God to heal today. I have witnessed such personally in my own life and in the life of others. We are encouraged to pray for each other that we might be healed; that is the default position for prayer as far as I can see. However, you have quoted a couple of passages of scripture which indicate that you hold the view of ‘healing in the atonement’ and that consequently adequate faith will always secure physical healing. I feel this is a dangerous mistake, and will comment on the general idea and on the verses you have quoted.First, if ‘healing is in the atonement’ in the same way that ‘forgiveness is in the atonement’, then God is honour bound to heal every one who comes to Him on this basis. If God can hold back healing in one instance the implication is that God could hold back forgiveness in some instances too. This is dangerous territory.Secondly, I know that Christ was put on the cross for my salvation. However, the Bible also says that every handwritting of ordinace that was against us, God nailed it to Jesus on the tree. your quote.And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Col 2:13-16 KJV)This is a fuller quotation and I have made bold some words that you should notice. Paul switches in this section from ‘we’ to ‘you’; this is not accidental. The ‘you’ is the Gentile believer, the ‘we’ is the Jewish believer. There was no ‘handwriting of ordinances’ which was against the Gentile; this was a uniquely Jewish ordinance. It is referring to the special rules given to the Jewish people which served as their accusation as they failed to obey them. Thirdly, And as we read in 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. your quote.Again the fuller quotation would have saved you from this error in interpretation; it reads Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1Pe 2:24-25 KJV) In this verse I have put the word ‘for’ in bold. It means ‘because’ and is explaining the previous verse. In other words the proof that we have been healed with his stripes is the fact that ‘we used to be like sheep going astray but have now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.’ What has been healed is our ‘waywardness’. It is the kind of healing referred to in Jeremiah; ; Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. (Jer 3:22 KJV). It is a familiar Bible picture; But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:5-6 KJV) The whole context of the Peter reference is that He bore our sins, so that we who had been dead to sins, should now live unto righteousness. The reason that this is possible is that He has healed us from our ancient sickness of sin.

Hi all,It does seem that proponants of "healing in the atonement" do like to quote the old testament versesBut he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:5-6 KJV) rather than the peter verses, Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1Pe 2:24-25 KJV) thanks for the explanation Ron, it is so clear, :-)

Hi BornAgain,I think you misunderstood Philo. In his first sentence to you he said that he believed in healing and that it happens today. He also did not say that healing is not in the atonement, he just said that it's not in there in the same way that forgiveness is in there.We do have some points that we have in common. (1) We believe in healing. (2) We believe that healing is in the atonement. From there on we part in the application.Healing is not in the atonement the same way that forgiveness is in the atonement, but it is in the atonement the same way that eternal life is in the atonement. Now if I'm to apply your logic to eternal life being in the atonement the same way you do to healing then I should fervantly expect to never die, but I'm going to die. I am promised eternal life however, that promise is in the resurrection. I am promised healing in the same way that I am promised eternal life. That's not to say that I won't experience healings on this side of eternity. But they will be in accordance with the purposes of God.Paul's illness is further explained in Galations 4:13-15. Paul even credits his illness with leading him to preach to the Galations.If we are to say that 'by his stripes ye were healed' is saying that we are healed from our sins, then we are just saying that the Word of God, is redundant.Remember, Isaiah ch.53 is poetry, and Hebrew poetry often repeats the same thing over in seperate lines. Every line of chapter 53 is about the removal of sins and healing the soul of a lost person. The whole context of the chapter is about the suffering of the messiah for the sins of his people.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Mitch,Don't assume. Assuming gets you in trouble. You assume that Paul had no illness. You assume that it was the water that made Timothy sick. You assume the Bible shouldn't be redundant.The truth is, the Bible IS redundant. It says the same thing over and over and over. God gets His message across by repeating Himself constantly. Cause we are humans and we constantly forget or ignore things. He repeats everything!You seem to like to look at things out of context and only focus on the one verse. You can't get the full meaning when you don't look around it. You are out right ignoring the context, so that that verse will fit your belief. AGAIN... From my other post on the Laughing Revival.The verse you are using this argument above with is out of context.I'm going to post the context.Isaiah 53:2-11For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because hehad done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. This passage is prophecy for the crucifixion. This is how the Messiah would deliver everyone who believes. It is not speaking about physical healing. It is talking about spiritual healing. We are 'healed' from the disease of sin. We are saved from the second death. This is not refering to the first death. God could care less about our physical bodies. He does care, but not as much as he cares about our spirit. He 'heals' us from spiritual disease and death. This is the meaning of the passage.Philippians 3:10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERING, being made conformable unto his death; The fellowship of His suffering. We are going to suffer. We aren't all going to be healed. It doesn't matter though. They're just bodies. We are to fellowship in His suffering. Take part in it. Experience His suffering. It is a blessing. To suffer the way Christ suffered. God is glorified when we suffer. ANYONE can follow God when things are good, your health is good. Who wouldn't want to follow a God who give you wealth and health? Just like Job. But the true test, the true witness of faith is when someone praises God, even though they aren't healed. Then people a will look and say, "That's the kind of God I want to follow. Even when they are suffering, they are still praising. There must be something about their God! I want to know Him." I believe in the gift of healing. People are healed. But why doesn't God heal everyone? Cause He has a purpose for that infirmity in those peoples lives. He is using that person, and that persons circumstances to glorify Himself. How they act in those conditions, brings glory to God. God is BEST glorified, when His children suffer.

Mitch a word of caution to you. Hold off on the accusations.Edit*As it pertains to this discussion, a suggested link:Prayer for a Phoenix Pastor & Wife

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."Act 7:54-60

Saying that God is best glorified when we are suffering does seem to me an overstatement, and if taken to its logical conclusion to be speaking of quite a different God than we usually think of. I would tend to agree with John Piper in saying that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.However,2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified)8 Three times I called upon the Lord and besought [Him] about this and begged that it might depart from me;9 But He said to me, My grace (My favor and loving-kindness and mercy) is enough for you [sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully]; for My strength and power are made perfect (fulfilled and completed) and show themselves most effective in [your] weakness. Therefore, I will all the more gladly glory in my weaknesses and infirmities, that the strength and power of Christ (the Messiah) may rest (yes, may pitch a tent over and dwell) upon me!10 So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful in divine strength).I'd say that, all other things being equal, God obviously prefers we not suffer, that is essentially a truism (for me, at least). However, things are very rarely all equal down here, there's too much necessity for discipline and reminders of our dependence on God, etc...You do have a good point about the term "messenger from Satan," though. I think it's quite reasonable to read that passage (in isolation, at least) as speaking of some kind of demonic oppression or harassment of Paul.And do strive to be kind, Mitch, unless God is telling you otherwise (there is a time for being unkind). Keep in mind the extensive limitations on this kind of communication: can't hear the other person's voice (tone, attitude, etc), can't as readily ask for explanations of terms, or logic/reasoning, etc... Make sure someone is really saying something before rebuking them that strongly for it.Remember, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness gentleness, and self-control. There are times where some of those attributes will not necessarily be present (i.e. John the Baptist, Jesus against the hypocritical Pharisees, Stephen, etc) but they are definately the exception rather than the rule.

In relation of a somewhat careless remark made by dear Mitch regarding the worthlessness of suffering I cannot help but begin quoting Mr. Sparks:“The Fellowship of His Sufferings”For Paul it was not something to be shunned: “that I may know him and the fellowship of his sufferings” (Phil. 3:10); there was a disposition to share the sufferings of the Lamb. That issues in a specific kind of people, a particular company; and if we look at it in that way surely our suspicions and our fears are dismissed. Identify these people and the other ground gives way.What all this means becomes clear as we look at it in its relation to all that is said about the Lamb. That is, you have got to comprehend the whole Word of God in connection with the Lamb in order to understand who and what these people are, for undoubtedly they are the people who have embraced, entered into, and become the embodiment of all that that phrase means — the Lamb, His life, His character, His work.What is here is this: firstly, a company marked out and distinguished by a peculiar fellowship with Christ as the Lamb. Underline the word Lamb, the name Lamb, with all that that means, and then see here a people who are in a peculiar relationship with Christ as the Lamb, and with what He means as being the Lamb. There is little doubt that there is a special honour given to this company. They are mentioned here with peculiar honour; their position is one of peculiar honour. The very tone in which they are mentioned is that of a people of very sacred and precious meaning to the Lord.A Song Learned Through SufferingThey possess an exclusive secret. They sing a song, and no one could learn that song save the hundred and forty-four thousand. No one else had the faculty. How do they possess this exclusive secret? Oh, the answer goes to the heart of so much in our experience. You know that it is a true principle that you learn secrets through suffering that you learn in no other way. It is in suffering that we learn those things that no one else knows. We cannot explain them, we cannot teach them, or make others understand. We can only say, “When you have been through what I have been through you will understand, you will know; until you have, it is all closed to you”. These people have been a way in which capacity for something has been created.

Isaiah 53 holds and contains a great mystery. He carried our griefs, our pain, our burdens. Through the Cross – and nowhere else, by the way – the enemy is reduced to nought.And then there is a cross for us to carry, every day. Much pain, much sorrow, much prayer, much priestly ministry.A father’s heart is – a real father accepting full responsibility in childrearing – is overloaded with pain, even unto physical expressions. Are we available for responsibility within the Kingdom, sharing in His sufferings. The modern stance – not accepting the cross, carrying it daily.The modern stance – not accepting childrearing unto adulthood.The modern stance – not accepting a part in the Father’s heart and burden, a formation made by the Holy Spirit.No burden allowed – rejecting priestly workShuns pain – shuns the greater part of reality.Wants only nice things – a child’s attitude.The mystery mastered - and lost.

Daniel3:15-1815 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Hi JeremyI think you misunderstood Philo. In his first sentence to you he said that he believed in healing and that it happens today. He also did not say that healing is not in the atonement, he just said that it's not in there in the same way that forgiveness is in there.We do have some points that we have in common. (1) We believe in healing. (2) We believe that healing is in the atonement. From there on we part in the application.Healing is not in the atonement the same way that forgiveness is in the atonement, but it is in the atonement the same way that eternal life is in the atonement.bornagain is not the first to misunderstand Philo. ;-) There is a comment that Luther made of Jeromes commentary that has always stuck in my mind; Jerome laboureth abundantly, yet leaveth it unexplained I have listened to a few 'Jeromes' in my time and no doubt been a Jerome myself from time to time.I regard the Atonement as the basis for all of God's dealings with our race. Even before the time/space event of Calvary it was still the basis for all His dealings with our race. In this sense everything is 'in the atonement'. Everything we receive from Him is because of the Atonement. All answered prayer is because of the Atonement. All prayer for healing is answered because of the Atonement, but I don't put prayer for healing on a different footing to prayer for a good harvest or a safe journey.The Atonement has to do with sin. It is sin that was atoned. Its consequence was that God could continue His dwelling in their midst. Blood shed in Atonement was 'for God'. It continues the line of truth in the phrase 'when I see the blood I will pass over you'. The blood was for God. The atonement was to satisfy God's divine justice. There are wonderful blessings which result from the Atonement, and healing can be one of them, but they are not 'in' the Atonement in the sense that the scope of the Atonement was sin and sickness. This is 'scope-creep' as the project managers would call it. The Atonement was to cover sin and the sinner so that he could approach God. I will cease 'labouring'... ;-)

'So I'll go away now, I will keep you in my prayers. There is alot in which I think you should all come to terms with. ESPECIALLY on how much you attack people like Brother Hagin and myself.'I think that maybe we could have another schism about that one. :roll: I for one appreciate your comments, but you have got realise that saying the stuff you do in the way you do. Quote:eg:'I will keep you in my prayers, but I shall not visit here anymore. I will pray the Lord of Harvest will remove junk like this from the Internet, I will never allow my child to grow up and see so much doubt and unbelief amongst Christians.' Will more than likely cause someone amongst 6 billion odd people to get :-x I have not sensed that there is 'so much doubt and unbelief' amongst the people who visit these forums. I have certainly noticed differences of interpretation, but not of a hunger to live the truth.For you to leave and never come back, which would make writing this post totally useless, would certainly please allot of people, but not myself. Just think of the privilige you have of giving a reason for the hope 'you' have. If 'your' truth cannot stand up under the scrutiny of a public forum without making you spitting mad then take it away and seek the Lord, we don't have to defend him. Mitch, if your position is the truth then no person should be able to arouse your emotions to give some of the responses that you have. Truth is truth even if you/I have it. That day will bring it to light. The hunger on this sight is for truth, I believe. I believe that 'By his stripes I was healed' in every area, that the Holy Spirit can manifest himself how he chooses on a person. But there is and I will say it again a middle road application where neither extreme becomes the focus, but just the boundary lines into which God wants to pour himself.That within the Church he is able to be God in it, and not be told how he should act.As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Pro 27:17Imagine how sharp you will be when you are through with us ;-)

This site would be very very boring and staid if we all agreed on everything...personally, i have had views enhanced, confirmed and changed by the good folk on this site,A brother on this site has said on tape"If you hav'nt changed your mind recently....how do you know you still have one"Humourous but true if you think about it.My experience of this "marketplace" has been a great dwelling in unity coupled with "see how they love one another" :-)

Mr. Miller.You had been warned and have chosen to ignore these warnings. You have shown your pride, lack of humility, unwillingness to learn or be teachable. Disagreements are not grounds for accusations nor is this a place to vent your agenda. Your own words condemn you.Community Rules

I see now, just how much hatred there is for men of Faith in this world today. I had never come face to face with so much of this hatred before in my life, untill I began on hereI absolutely disagree. In forums such as this, disagreements are a given. How we choose to disagree reveals what is in our hearts. It is an unwritten rule here to separate doctrine from the person. We urge, encourage one another to seek and know and experience the truth. Truth sometimes offends. How we react when we're offended reveals how far the Holy Spirit have been at work in our character. How we deal with people who oppose us shows whether that truth is real/experiential. Or whether what we have is really the truth. Jesus doesn't deal with us according to personalities neither does He mark our iniquities. At the very end of His life He was able to say, "Father, forgive them...." David is such an example for me that when Saul died, he mourned for him who sought to kill him. God's mercy had been at work in his heart. Thank God for the depths of His mercy.I believe there's no hatred here... just an honest, whole-hearted seeking of the truth.

I've got to say, that I've actually read about 90% of Mitch Miller's post, and I've been quite impressed with his stand on a variety of points. I have personally been accused of being deceived, simply because I don't adhere to the kind of orthodoxy that is tolerated here. There have been several scathing comments directed to Bro' Mitch that have seemingly been unchecked (see the Hagin Laughter Forum).Mitch has repeatedly stated that he is not so much defending people, but his view of the Word of God, and you've got to admit that the explainations that he as given are quite reasonable and grounded (ie. he extends the scripture thrown at him, to highlight context, equally as well as any given back). Are we so prepared to grip onto our "doctrines" that we will disregard the truth, when it doesn't appeal to out sense of "spiritual correctness"?Against Mitch, I will say, if your going to say your gonna let it drop, then let it drop. Basically I'm saying, how about everybaody back off. We're never gonna agree on everything, but if we're gonna disagree, then we need to look at the way we do it before pointing fingers (me included).I'm not a moderator, so my opinion is little here, but tell me...am I wrong?

Hi Aaron.I think Ron's comments and others here go a long way in shedding some light on this:do all in the name of the Lord JesusThink there is a couple of things going on here.One is a matter of conduct, attitude and civility, the other is agendas (even if they are unintentional) and lastly doctrine.Added to all that is the overlapping of thoughts being carried across different postings.Something that happens often and would be expected is how there is a present 'topic', question or statement presented and it can get off track and/or presents different questions that evolve as the discussion progress.In this case there is a lot of carry over from the whole posting re: Mr. Haggin. Without going back through the whole thing it does seem apparent that the 'mood' came in tow. This is not an attempt other than to point out a few things, I harbor no ill will towards the brother.This posting here started off with this question:Where in Gods Word, do you find Scripture that allows you to know that you can have healing from anything that comes against you. Of if you do not believe in this, where do you get Scripture that says you must remain sick on this earth. The question itself sounds loaded to my ears. It presupposes that this is a black or white issue and in his opinion as he goes on to defend if you disagree well then you are ...Think there was a disregard to consider other thoughts and only a penchant to force his opinion on everyone which is fine if you can do that without throwing accusations, we all have our opinions, right or wrong. But does that constitute a discussion?As it pertains to the question stated at the beginning of this post, I would agree with this thought from Philologos:However, you have quoted a couple of passages of scripture which indicate that you hold the view of ‘healing in the atonement’ and that consequently adequate faith will always secure physical healing. I feel this is a dangerous mistake,...The reason being that it cannot hold up to the whole of scripture nor to reality. It is dangerous in that it can lay devastating consequences on those who are not healed by intimating that it is a lack of faith that is preventing their healing. There are some here that have children with disabilities, would this be casually bandied about to them as to the root of their particular problems? What of say Joni Erickson Tada, confined to a wheelchair as a quadriplegic and yet who has done so much for the cause of Christ and and actually despite her suffering has found that she can say she is thankful for her wheelchair, because of what the Lord has been able to do through her.I have shown my knowledge of the Bible, and if I used the word assume, I am sorry. I'm not assuming, I'm telling you on behalf of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God has promised healing.We are speaking the Word of God, and instead of bringing the Word back to us, you make fake videos of us. That in itself, is enough to show any man with common sense, who is more Christ like.These two statements speak for themselves. To quote Leonard Ravenhill "Do we know the word of God but not the God of the word?"Don't mean to be mean but there is a sense of pride here, don't think becoming more Christlike is supposed to be a competition. And again the overlapping sentiments from the Haggin post shows that he is indeed 'defending people' including his own opinion, again fine, but why say that is not what you are doing? The fact that the video consisted of two different meetings doesn't change the content of what happened in them.Having said all that, yes, we all could do a much better job of containing our emotions, even when we are being 'provoked' intentionally or not. There is always going to be a built in factor for misunderstandings here in this type of communication and so the tendencies towards patience to let things unveil, be corrected or clarified. But also the understanding to be civil throughout and make apologies when we fail. I have prior and will again apologize for my own shortcomings, may operate as a 'moderator' but am accountable to all of you here for my conduct and in things spiritual always welcome to be corrected, please don't leave me in my ignorance :-)

Hi Aarron,I'm not a moderator, so my opinion is little hereYou don't have to be a moderator for your opinions to be important on SI bro.There have been several scathing comments directed to Bro' Mitch that have seemingly been unchecked (see the Hagin Laughter Forum).I agree with you. We shouldn't be attacking the person but the teaching while loving the person. I'm sorry if I've let my emotions get the best of me in my responses as far as any personal attacks are concerned.Now as far as healing goes, I think we are all in agreement that God heals today. But how such a teaching is applied is where we are in disagreement. The reason for the strong stances against one another can be found in their historical contexts. Healing streams of the Weslyan-Holiness, and Pentecstal form have their roots in Sola Scriptura and, with a few exceptions, have not strayed into the extremes of the teachings that everyone with a physical ailment must be healed or they don't have enough faith which begs the question: If the faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain, then just how much faith is required to heal?I have a photo copy of a book called "Trophimus I Left Sick" subtitled "Our Problems With Divine Healing" written by a Pentecostal English theologian who helped the Assemblies of God write their doctrine on healing. It was written during the height of the "healing revivals" in the 50's and he discussed his concerns that we were going to extremes in healing ministries and he showed that physical healing this side of heaven in the scriptures is in tandum with preaching the gospel and not taught as a right of the individual believer. The A/G's also, in their doctrines, do not state it as a "right" but as a "privelidge."The historical origins of the "Faith" movement and their teaching on healing does not come from or share is doctrine with the teachings of the Weslyan-Holiness or Pentecostal movements. Rather it's origins come from the metaphysical cults that spawned "New Thought" and "Christian Science." That's why I am so opposed to the teachings of the Faith movement, it doesn't come from the Bible, but it twists it. This is a serious charge I know, but it can be shown to be true.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

You are very brave to have open air pasting on your forum, you musy have great faith that you and your team are going to catch something dodgey when it arrives.Brother seriously if you are not willing to be lead into all truth and realize that this is a narrow way and that yes God will use others to even judge and lead us into truth, but if you can't handle that and just want to believe and do what you feel is best then I am not sure why you would tolerate this type of site with people who cleary have narrowminds them being focused on revealed truth and holding onto it as if its a pearl of great price.Imagine that is what you were taught when you became a Chrsitian and now youre told. 'Mate, thats it bit dodge, take a duck. One could get as fundamental as one of them Islamic guys, and blow yourself up.Galatians 4:16-18 - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you.I think that it is very hard to try and bring correction of that nature on people from so vast a place as the internet, their connection to you and the people on this site is as far as the PC in front of them. No relationship, no accountability, nothing.If paul the apostle could not keep quiet in the defense and love for the truth howbeit could I dare to do so. Christ Love compels me.I think that somehow this site is like a fellowship with 5000 odd members and you and the moderators are the eldership team, very difficult to try and shepherd and lead.Galatians 1:8-10 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.Amen. May you continue in your task, you guys have allot to more work to do.Zeke

Came over to see the wreckage, not as bad as I thought.I would like to note that this community has engaged in quite a few discussions and debates on very controversial and often emotionally-charged issues, and as far as I've seen is quite capable of doing so in a loving, mature, productive manner that is both glorifying to God and (much less important) a genuine ministry of nourishment to my soul in reminding me that there actually are people on the internet capable of such good communication. Age of the Earth, role of women in the body of Christ, Christian Perfection, etc... we've had extremely good discussions on these topics with barely any hint of improper behavior (that I've seen). There have been less civil discussions, but they always seemed to involve a certain frequent poster no longer around.My point is, that of the people involved in this debate, I know that all the ones who've been here a while are more than capable of this kind of irenic, loving yet productive discussion. So, in attempting to understand why this one (and the previous one on Hagin) turned out the way they did, we should look at what was different. I don't mean to gossip or unduly point fingers, but the agitating factor here seems to have been Mitch.Not that certain of us didn't lose our cool in response to him, and those who thus sinned are obliged to repent (that's between them, God, and Mitch, though). We could have treated him better (and I would ask each of you to consider how for future reference, but I'm sure you already are), but I think in the end it wouldn't have made much difference unless his heart had been changed (by something like regeneration, for example, but I don't know for sure where he is in regard to that). I think he made some good points (he responded to one of mine quite well), and we made some progress in the debate, but before we could really get down to it the unkind words and accusations started flying (I think the first was from him, not sure), culminating (fairly quickly) in him unilaterally terminating the discussion. That's not the way to get anywhere in a disagreement.Then there's his unsupported and unexplained dismissal of the Hagin video and related videos as "doctored" or "fake," which (to me) smacks of his significant lack of ability to deal maturely with strong evidence that he might be wrong.Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, of which the conclusion is: we're not totally free from blame in the matter, far from that, but it was something like handling a bottle of unstabilized nitroglycerin, even if you're careful it could blow up in your face.

As it pertains to the original topic here...This is truly worth reading, actually it applies in more ways than one:Prayer for a Phoenix Pastor & WifeThe reference being "Re: More Updates" from Ed (Gideons)

Then there's his unsupported and unexplained dismissal of the Hagin video and related videos as "doctored" or "fake," which (to me) smacks of his significant lack of ability to deal maturely with strong evidence that he might be wrong.In the Hagin discussion, Mitch refered to the fact that there Hagin wears different suits, and that their were different ppl in the front row. From this gathered that there were different meeting covered that stitched together to make one video, which could create a biased opinion of the events.Greg my only point in refering to the "deception" example was not to attack you personally (you actually weren't the person I had in mind), but to say that there is alot of unchecked aggression from what I can see. Personally I feel that Mitch has been a bit unwise in his approach.This whole forum is a direct spin off from the Hagin dsicussion, and he said there that he would bring it up.Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, of which the conclusion is: we're not totally free from blame in the matter, far from that, but it was something like handling a bottle of unstabilized nitroglycerin, even if you're careful it could blow up in your face.Amen brother, my setiments exactly.

Against Mitch, I will say, if your going to say your gonna let it drop, then let it drop. Basically I'm saying, how about everybaody back off. We're never gonna agree on everything, but if we're gonna disagree, then we need to look at the way we do it before pointing fingers (me included).This comment was directed at Mitch, not at anyone else at SI. My point was that Mitch had again and again said that he'd drop it but then added another 30-40 posts. The "me included" comment was me saying that I'm as guilty, (if not more so) of what I am talking about. The orthodoxy I'm refering to, is the "so and so says this so it must be true", that we all do. Truth is, I've read some heavy criticisms of the likes of Kieth Green, Ravenhill, Finney, that I found to be unfair. I'm in no way advocating any of the preachers that have been criticised, only to say that there are some things that can be learned from them.Publically, I want to apologise to Greg, for seeming like I was directing this to him. I think that we've sorted out any differences of opinion, and have accepted the fact that there are things we'll always disagree on (and I for one am ok with that). Greg's a good man, who sincerly wants revival, and zealously resists and perceived heresy. You gotaa give it to him, bro's got heart :-D. Vote 1 Greg Gordon!!!Re the subject at hand, it is clear upon reading into the context of this passage, both in Isaiah and 1 Peter, that the healing is from sin and it's effects. I would not subsribe to the "word of faith" stand that if you're not healed, its' because of some "deficiency of faith". This is the mentality of a small mind, that wants to blame man for things that are bigger than him.Sickness is the result of sin, a cumulative effect of the sin of mankind. Wigglesworth died with gall stones (might have bleed kideny, i'm not sure:-)), yet he was the Apostle of Faith. Kind of oxy-moronic, according to that stand, but anyway....

:-P

Re the subject at hand, it is clear upon reading into the context of this passage, both in Isaiah and 1 Peter, that the healing is from sin and it's effects. I found this scripture in Matthew 8:14-1714When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. 16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."So could someone give some feedback.According to this he carried all our sicknesses. I understand that it is because of sin that sickness is in the world but,91As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. John 9:1-3It wasn't because of his sin that he was sick.I also need to ask another thing, If the cross was only for sin, what is the basis for us receiving anything else from God? If it is not the cross, what is it?For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. 2 Cor 8:9Zekep.s. I am not advocating a prosperity, healing gospel at all.

Hi ZekeO"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes :-? This will need to be quite lengthy. You will probably need to read it, then think about it and then read it again. There is a lot of theology bubbling away in this answer.There is a similar principle to that of Sherlock Holms that we can apply to some difficult Bible verses. Another example that we discussed here some time ago was 'baptism for the dead'. When you examine this verse in the light of what we know the scripture teaches about the necessity of repentance and faith before baptism we can eliminate the 'impossible'. It is impossible that the verse in 1 Cor 15 can refer to proxy baptisms so we eliminate that from the option and see what we have left.I would suggest a similar line of action for this verse. What do we know about the atonement? Well ultimately it is God's method for removing guilt and its consequences. (by 'guilt' I don't mean a bad feeling but personal responsibility for something which was against the law of God) The Atonement (which is our short-hand term for the substitutionary and representative Death of Christ upon the cross) has dealt with Adam's sin and its consequences of Sin and Death in all generations. (There is a thread called Original Sin too which has some comments on this.) The Atonement also dealt with our personal 'sins'. The Atonement dealt with Sin and sins, the congenital condition and our personal debt. It also set in course a process that will ultimately deal with all the consequences of Sin; these include sickness, suffering, death. A time is coming when there will be a new earth and a new heaven; for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away…(Rev 21:1) This will be at the consummation of all things, but that time has not yet arrived. When that time comes the Atonement will find its full and perfect consequence in what Jesus referred to as The Regeneration; here is a picture of the day And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21:3-4 KJV) These consequences of Sin will not be finally removed until that day; tears, death, sorrow, crying, pain…The causes of all these, Sin and sins, can be removed instantly (according to my gospel) but the consequences, although there is comfort here, cannot yet be removed in their entirety. The writer to the Hebrews uses an interesting phrase And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Heb 6:5 KJV) He speaks of Christians as those who ‘taste… the powers of the coming age’. At times God is pleased to give us a taste of the powers of the age to come; but these are not our rights. They are manifestations of His grace but we cannot demand them in the same way that we can demand ‘forgiveness’. (that may seem strange language, but in a legal sense we have the right to access and acceptance with God because of the Atonement. We do not have the same ‘right’ to the instant removal of tears, death, sorrow, crying, pain… that belongs to the ‘coming age’.) On separate line, the Old Testament language of atonement and forgiveness always related to sins, and never to physical weakness or sickness.In the light of the whole scripture the single verse in (Mat 8:17 KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. cannot mean that the immediate healing of all weakness and sickness is automatically available as a result of Christ’s death. So what does it mean?This is Adam Clarke: “Himself took our infirmities - The quotation is taken from Isa_53:4, where the verb נסא nasa signifies to bear sin, so as to make atonement for it. And the rabbins understand this place to speak of the sufferings of the Messiah for the sins of Israel; and say that all the diseases, all the griefs, and all the punishments due to Israel shall be borne by him. Christ fulfils the prophecies in all respects, and is himself the completion and truth of them, as being the lamb and victim of God, which, bears and takes away the sin of the world. The text in Isaiah refers properly to the taking away of sin; and this in the evangelist, to the removal of corporeal afflictions: but, as the diseases of the body are the emblems of the sin of the soul, Matthew, referring to the prediction of the prophet, considered the miraculous healing of the body as an emblem of the soul’s salvation by Christ Jesus.”I would add this; that it is good to keep in mind that there was a special link between sin and sickness for Israel. And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. (Exo 15:26 KJV) They were on their way to Sinai when God said this, and it is a threat as well as a promise. This verse is a promise of Health rather than of Healing. Their obedience will guarantee their continuing health, but their disobedience will bring sickness. (You probably realise that many examples of sickness in the Old Testament have sin as their cause. This is why the disciples asked their question in John 9.) To the Jews, to whom Matthew’s gospel was written, the arrival of Messiah is proved by His ability to lift off sins in forgiveness and sickness by healing; the physical is, as Clarke say, the emblem of the spiritual.

Hey ZekeO,In reference to my comment on Isaiah and 1 Peter, I was basically saying that by limiting this healing to a mere phisical illness, was to limit the atonement.(Isa 53:50) But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed. (1Pe 2:24) He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.There are several effects of sin, including but not limited to physical aliment. Clearly the stripes were given for our sin (Christ being our substitute), as undeserved puninshment. Because He took our sin upon Himself, He also took the effects, that we may be healed of the sin, and it's effects.Is divine healing biblical? Yes!! Does it stop there? No!! But, in the words of Paris Reidhead "The chief end of all being is the glory of God...Doesn't God intend man to be happy? Yes, but as a by product, and not a prime product" (here we go, now I'm quoting so & so:-P).

There are several effects of sin, including but not limited to physical aliment. Clearly the stripes were given for our sin (Christ being our substitute), as undeserved puninshment. Because He took our sin upon Himself, He also took the effects, that we may be healed of the sin, and it's effects.Hi Aaron In each of your biblical quotes you have quoted single verses rather than the context of those verses. The context of each verse quotation makes it crystal clear that the subject under discussion is sin and only sin.I do not limit the Atonement. The whole of God's continual dealing with the human race is based on what He achieved in the Atonement, but that is not the same as saying 'healing is in the atonement' anymore than 'answered prayer is in the atonement'. My daily bread is based on this but I can't say'my daily bread is in the atonement'. The setting forth of His Son in propitiation is the foundation for all of God's mercies to our race. We must not confuse secondary mercies with primary aims. He was, and still is, manifested to destroy all the works of the devil, but the way He does this is not ours to demand but His to dispense as He will. The Atonement was to put away sin.

"Then Paul makes very plain that physical perfection on our human body level is not for our present life: a warning note to those who offer complete physical healings and major on a physical healing ministry. Paul tells us that our bodies remain corrupted and mortal. The replacement of corruption by incorruption is only at the Lord's coming (1 Corinthians 15:42-44;52-55). meanwhile, let's not fool ourselves on the physical level. We "suffer" with all the creation, and our "salvation" on that level is by hope, not faith. It is a prospect not within our present reach (8:23-25)."Norman Grubbhttp://www.normangrubb.com/Paul';s%20Key%20to%20the%20Liberated%20Life.htm(This is the same link referenced in another posting.)

Well, this is a pleasant surprise. Thank you both for your humility, Mitch and Greg; or rather thanks be to God for giving you that grace.To repeat the Galatians 5:22-23 list again: love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control; let us not neglect them :)"If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it."Sounds pretty comprehensive, and certainly not to be ignored or passed off as "too good to be true" without due consideration.The Bible qualifies this concept of "ask and ye shall receive" several places in the N.T.James 1 (NASB)5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.The idea being that one must actually have faith that the Lord will grant the request (the context here is about asking for wisdom, but it would seem to me to be easily extended to a request for "anything"), before one can "expect" to "receive." I think the Lord will sometimes still graciously give anyway, but we would have no grounds to expect Him to do so.James 4 (NASB)2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Here James is, well, not being very kind to certain people who are driven by lusts and worldliness. First he says they "do not have" because they "do not ask," but then says they "ask and do not receive" because they "ask with wrong motives," specifically that they intend to spend the blessing on their own selfish desires (if that's a reasonable interpretation of "pleasures," and I think so).1 John 5 (KJV)14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.Here, I think, is the key: "according to his will."

So I feel the Lord is showing us here, that as a believer, we will take the name of Jesus, and be able to speak healing into any situation.Hi Mitch,you may well 'feel' that this is what the Lord is showing you here, but this is not Biblical Christianity. To 'ask in the name of Jesus' is to ask for what He has authorised you to ask for. If not you could apply this logic to anything; you could just as well ask for a Cadillac or a Space Shuttle.

Good evening/day to all, wherever you may live.To 'ask in the name of Jesus' is to ask for what He has authorised you to ask for. If not you could apply this logic to anything. Is that what Jesus has told me as a personal believer, or what is generally spoken of through the word?Can you guys explain the reference to Isaiah 53 in Mathew 8. In that context it was the healing of Peters mother if I remember correctly?Zeke

Hi ZekeOIs that what Jesus has told me as a personal believer, or what is generally spoken of through the word?I would say both, but do reread Keith's post on this matter too.Can you guys explain the reference to Isaiah 53 in Mathew 8. In that context it was the healing of Peters mother if I remember correctly? that was the purpose of my long post of 2004/7/13 16:31 in this thread. (obviously another example of 'Jerome labouring abundantly but leaving it unexplained'. ;-) )

(obviously another example of 'Jerome labouring abundantly but leaving it unexplained'. ;-) )I think you and Oscar Wilde might have something in common. :-P A time is coming when there will be a new earth and a new heaven; for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away…(Rev 21:1) This will be at the consummation of all things, but that time has not yet arrived. When that time comes the Atonement will find its full and perfect consequenceIt says in the Psalms:Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits-- who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases.Psalm 103:2,3In the light of what you have said is this healing of diseases only to 'expected/guaranteed' at the atonement? There seems to be no future tense about what the Psalmist is saying, It is almost as if he saying to anyone who will hear, this is who you are to me, now.This verse is a promise of Health rather than of Healing. Their obedience will guarantee their continuing health, but their disobedience will bring sickness.In the light of the above verse, it appears that someone who is sick can expect to be healed by the Lord as part of his benefits towards us as Jews of the heart(Rom2:29). And not just a promise that if you obey you won’t get sick.The text in Isaiah refers properly to the taking away of sin; and this in the evangelist, to the removal of corporeal afflictions: but, as the diseases of the body are the emblems of the sin of the soul, Matthew, referring to the prediction of the prophet, considered the miraculous healing of the body as an emblem of the soul’s salvation by Christ Jesus.”The word ‘and’ separates the two thoughts. So are they being combined as being part of aemblem of the soul’s salvation by Christ Jesus? Or are they two seperate activities that God can and I believe is willing to do? To those that ask, that is. ;-) Zeke

if you ask for a cadillac, well I dont really know. That depends on weather or not you feel peace about it in your spirit man.What Biblical grounds do we have for trusting in a "peace" that we "feel" in our "spirit man?"Perhaps that is what God would want you to have, however, I'd prefer if a man needed a car, he just go to the Father and say Lord, I need a card, you bless me with this however you see fit, but I know you will bless me with this gift.If it were God's will that the person in question have transportation, He'd take care of it, yes. A Cadillac is a quite a worldly luxury, though.but Jesus said, anything we ask. He put no condition on it, except that we are a believer.The other conditions established in the N.T. include (as posted above) faith, right motives, and accordance with the will of God.I do not think a true believer, will ever want to ask for something outside the will of God.Luke 22 (NASB)41 And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."Jesus' will and the Father's will differed on this point, and Jesus not only wanted to ask but actually asked for the "cup" to be removed, though He obviously was even here submitted to do the Father's will even if it should prove to be other than what He wanted.2 Corinthians 12 (NASB)7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself! 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.Whether this "thorn" was a physical ailment, demonic oppression, (or some combination or whatever), Paul asked three times to be delivered of it, and the Lord simply had other plans.Neither man's faith (certainly not Jesus') is thrown into question by their asking for something and not receiving it, yet both came to a point where they wanted something that God was not willing to do.

HelloTaking that position would lead you to believethat a person of the positive faith movement should never die in this life. The logical conclusion to this premise is that IF you have the "faith" of the confession preachers you will NEVER die in this present life.If you just confess and believe according to thierinterpetation of the scriptures you WILL LIVE FOREVER here on earth in your present state because amoung other things"by his stripes you are healed". It just does notadd up. Sometimes God will heal and sometimes he allows a person to die. You CANNOT override HIS will if he has determined that a persons time is up here on earth.

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. Psalm 103 ZikeOI'm glad we have come to this psalm. It deserves a careful examination. This is David speaking to his soul as you will see from the introductory verse. These are 'soul diseases' and soul blessings. Can the soul have diseases? Certainly it can, sometimes they are called 'besetting sins' or habits. We can see the territory we are in with the promise of the eagle's youth. This is the same metaphor as used by Isaiah (Is 40:31) I don't think anyone would interpret Isaiah to mean that we will actually fly (although I know that Benny Hinn thinks Adam could fly :-?), and the renewal of strength 'like the eagles' is a promise to the weary soul. This Psalm is David talking to himself, to his soul. Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; (Psa 103:3 KJV) Verse 3 is a form of Hebrew poetry known as 'parallelism' where the same truth is expressed in a different form. The first half of the verse interprets the second.

God promised to Abraham to be his exceeding great reward. He told him he would blesss him, and make him a blessing. MitchIndeed He did. but you have missed the point. God did NOT promise Abraham that He would 'give' him 'an exceeding great reward'. He promised to 'be' an 'exceeding great reward'. This is a promise of abundant spiritual blessing, not material wealth.

MitchFirst off, we know what the thorn was. We dont have to speculate if it was a physical illness, or whatever. Paul says exactly what it was, it was a messenger of Satan, messenger being the same word as angel.. so it was one of Satans demons, or demonic angels.Thorns in the side are a frequent biblical phrase for troublesome people. eg But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. (Num 33:55 KJV)Also just something for thought, Paul 'begged' the Lord to remove the messenger of Satan from him. Nowhere else in the New Testement can we find that anyone prayed and 'begged' God.This is silly, Mitch. You must not guess what words mean. Get yourself a good bible dictionary (try www.e-sword.com) and think before you jump. And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, (Mat 8:5 KJV) 'beseech is the same word that Paul used, but of this man Jesus said He had never seen this kind of faith in Israel. The NT's greatest example of 'faith' beseeched Christ.In fact Christ Himself used the word Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? (Mat 26:53 KJV) The word translated 'pray' is the same word that Paul used. I could give many more examples, but the word simply means to plead, often to persuade someone to an action.Strongs G3870παρακαλέωparakaleōThayer Definition:1) to call to one’s side, call for, summon2) to address, speak to, (call to, call upon), which may be done in the way of exhortation, entreaty, comfort, instruction, etc.2a) to admonish, exhort2b) to beg, entreat, beseech2b1) to strive to appease by entreaty2c) to console, to encourage and strengthen by consolation, to comfort2c1) to receive consolation, be comforted2d) to encourage, strengthen2e) exhorting and comforting and encouraging2f) to instruct, teachPart of Speech: verbA Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3844 and G2564Citing in TDNT: 5:773, 778

Mitch!Hi, not to be condescending or anything, but I just wanted you to know that I have enjoyed your posts much more recently than in the past. You seem to be much more humble, not arrogant, and speaking in love since you decided to come back. The discussion in the last few days has been awesome to read because instead of getting mad at each other, you all have been able to discuss this issue speaking with love and understanding. Although, I don’t agree with some of the things you are posting, I have been able to see more clearly your heart for the Lord, than before. I hope the discussion continues to go well…Jenn

BornAgain wrote:I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to drive across with the two references you just posted here. From what you quoted of me, it would seem you are trying to say that Abraham was not wealthy on this Earth. Seeing as we are now talking about material blessings and 'stuff', let me just say that on this issue of 'stuff' there are two extremes of thought, one being a poverty mentality and the other one being a prosperity mentality. I believe that in all things that we have, get, receive, get given it all ties in with stewardship. For some reading if you are interested: Lk 16:10-11, Mt 25:14-30; 1 Cor 4:2 That word in regards to this topic of wealth and possessions sums it all up.Abraham I’m sure really didn’t care if he was rich or not, quite honestly. He was willing to offer his most costly possession to his God, so imagine what he thought about all his tents and camels etc. He didn’t wait a hundred years for them, but his boy, that was something very special to him. I think that is 'some' of Mr Indexs' point.Zeke

Yes I have seen the phrase throns in the flesh used in differnent places throughout the Scriptures, however, in this instance, Paul writes on to us to tell us EXACTLY what that thorn is. He says it was a messenger from Satan.Hi MitchHere's another little Bible study for you. The Greek word aggelos (angel) means a messenger. In Luke 9:522 Cor 12:7James 2:25the word is translated 'messenger/s'. The word does not tell you 'who/what he is' it tells you 'what he does. It is some person who is his 'thorn in the flesh'. The person is Satan's messenger, that is, Paul knows that this person has evil intentions and (whether he knows it or not) is really doing Satan's work for him. The interesting thing about this 'messenger' is that Paul says 'it was given to me'. This person who harassed him was Satan's messenger but also a gift of God. It is good to remember that 'something' or 'someone' can be both at the same time.BTW you didn't offend me.

God did indeed promise to be his exceeding great reward. But he would not be much of one, without giving Abraham anything.This is a misleading statement. God is an exceeding great reward whether He gives or does something for us or not. He is not increased or decreased by anything He does because He is. He is unchanging. Who He is makes Him an exceeding great reward. Abraham's blessings are not so much what God gave or did to him but God's presence in his life. What makes a person extraordinary is God's presence and not necessarily what he does or possesses. If God intended everyone to be rich and prosperous how do we explain Jesus being poor, or the widow with two mites or Paul ending up in prison abandoned even by many. CT Studd, Hudson Taylor ended up with almost nothing at the end of their lives. There are countless more. In all the discussions here, one thing i Believe is clear. Isn't it the reason why godly, righteous christians are sick and some aren't is because God is still sovereign and not necessarily because they don't have faith?

BornAgain wrote:...but I do allow him also to give to me what it is he wants to give to me. And as he has said, that is health and prosperity amongst other things. So in your understanding of the positions put forward on this site, do you believe that the prevailing mindset is of not believing that God wants to bless? Or are you sensing that some folk would not allow Jesus to bless them with whatever? I imagine it this way, someone gets given a house and they refuse it, the question would be why? Some probable answers, 1) God is God and he does whatever pleases him. There is no way it pleased him to give me a house. 2) No can't take it I am not worthy, you are so holy God, you could never want to do that for me. 3)Will people think that I am part of that 'name it and claim it' club. I don't want someone to think that I could subscribe to something so off-line. The bible does tell me to flee from all this(1 Tim 6:11)I think that all the points put forward by Philo on healing are scriptural. In the light of thoses scriptures I personally can put my faith out to taste of the powers of the age to come. This is not to say that I deserve it, or that I can claim it, but simply that I am able to ask him for it, and know that he hears.Whether he answers in the way we expect is another thing entirely, just ask Jesus.During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Heb 5:7 In Matthew we read of his prayer:Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Mat 26:39If Jesus was a bible believing man he could have pulled a couple of Scriptures from the Old testament to backup why God must save his soul from death.Here is one he could have used:Rescue me, O LORD, from evil men; protect me from men of violence, 2who devise evil plans in their hearts and stir up war every day. 3They make their tongues as sharp as a serpent's; the poison of vipers is on their lips. Selah 4Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; protect me from men of violence who plan to trip my feet. 5Proud men have hidden a snare for me; they have spread out the cords of their net and have set traps for me along my path. Selah Psalm 140:1-5This was certainly very true of Jesus' situation.Jesus resigned himself to the Fathers will, for his life.Our Father has a will and call for each and every one of our lives that are uniquely our own. Lets allow him to do whatever he wants with our lives, for we do after all belong to Him.Zeke

Well at least you told me where you are coming from. Thanks :-) Zeke

Ok, here's my stand on things... Someone used an example earlier about, if someone wanted to give you a house. What would you do? I would take the house! Houses are expensive and if someone just wanted to give me one, why not?But my point is I live in an apartment and I like it. I don't mind at all. I'm not praying for these things or a house or money to get a house. I'm happy! God says that, "godliness with contentment is great gain!". I'm content where I am. And God says I have actually gained from being content with the things I have. So, if God or someone wants to bless you with things. Why not? Take it, but don't make it your point to ask for and gain all these material things here on Earth. I see so many pastors teaching that properity will make you happy. Be content and you'll be happy! I see them declaring things of this world: I declare that my life is changing! I declare that no weapon formed or fashioned against me shall prosper. My finances are getting stronger. I declare that I am out of debt forever. I'm getting stronger. Money flows to me in great abundance. All my needs are met now! I have plenty more to put in store. I have preferential treatment and I walk in the favor of God and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost. I expect unexpected income-money is drawn to me. I am blessed to be a blessing. In Jesus' name, I am no longer the tail. I'm no longer beneath. I declare that I am above only! I declare victory in every area. I declare promotion in my life. Promotion on my job. Promotion in my spirit. Promotion in my soul. Promotion in my finances and divine health in my body. My ministry will not be held down. My ministry will not be suppressed. It will not be restricted and it will not be stopped. All that God has called me to do shall come up, shall come out, and shall come forth. Every word of God He's spoken concerning me shall come to pass. No devil, no world problem, no country problem can narrow it down. It will break forth. It will break out. The will of God will be fully done in my life. I decree it! I say it! I decree it! I say it in Jesus' name! Amen.God hasn't stuck His hand out and offered you these things. So why declare you already have them? To claim something that isn't yours is lying. And to take a gift that hasn't been given to you yet is stealing. Even if they were planning on giving it to you anyways. God says to seek Him first and everything will be added on. You don't need to focus on it, pray for it, or declare it. Do you think He won't keep His promises? Don't worry about it...

BornAgain wrote:It is my understanding from what I see on this site, as well as many churches around the world. That many people like to claim things such as, well that Preacher there just has to much money, or they say things like, All he does is preach about tithing, or God wouldn't want a preacher to have such a nice fancy car. I hear those comments, all the time. And its just absurd, its some of the scariest, most ignorant remarks people can make. The thing is that, that may be true, but people judge by what they see. If they see a pastor with a fancy car etc,etc and three blocks down the road there are people starving, then they are going to ask questions. Even if the pastor has the best intentions in the world. Paul said...To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.1 Cor 9:22Elsewhere he writes... If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.Rom 14:15-17The situation as I see is is that some of the folk take exception to your crowd because to them you are not following Christ as they do. You are letting what you consider good to spoken of as evil. Paul gives some sound advice about that... So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.Romans 14:22If anything, the faith guys should dress down, live down and not cause their brethren to stumble. Who is acting in love and who isn't, in Pauls mind the 'weaker' brother is the one that we shouldn't cause to stumble. Zeke

July 13, 2004 WorldNetDailyUPPER NILE ­ Sudan-Persecution Project Foundation announced today the release of new photo and video documentary evidence of atrocities against civilians in southern Sudan's oil region.During its June Sudan relief mission co-sponsored by The Voice of the Martyrs in Bartlesville, Okla., a team led by Persecution Project Foundation president Brad Phillips encountered more than 700 Shilluk survivors of a recent government-sponsored massacre in the remote village of Payuer in Northern Upper Nile - Sudan.Reports had leaked out of Renk County in the nation's oil region that, from March 26, 2004, through the second week of April 2004, 22 Shilluk villages had been burned and hundreds of people murdered while Government of Sudan(GoS) troops looked on."They did more than look on," said Phillips. "Survivors told us that GoS soldiers in motorboats had fired on them from the Nile while government-sponsored militia attacked from the bush. We received testimonies that between 300 and 1,000 people were killed during these attacks. More died afterward from wounds and disease. Hundreds were abducted. Twenty thousand people were driven out of their homes, their villages burned. At the beginning of June, 700 Shilluks who had fled these attacks reached our distribution site in Payuer, where more than 85,000 internally displaced Christians have taken refuge this year. We knew the situation was desperate when we arrived, because we found the people eating 'apam' [leaves from the Acacia trees]," Phillips said. My comment is below;On which rung of the prosperity ladder would these people come ? Would it be on the top or the bottom or maybe where the Citation is ? I have a video from Sudan and its atrocities but haven't been able to get a permission from the company so I could share it with you. I'll put it on my site so you can watch it and if anyone gets sued over it, it's me, and then we'll talk faith or faith that is missing, prosperity and whatever else so I can be as enlightened. I would dearly love to see Copeland and Co go to these people to talk about misplaced faith and how you can have this and that if you just believe. Maybe they could fly in from the north of Sudan and ask the government, which is propped up by the UN, the big saviour of all the downtrodden, for a safe passage.Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Mat 6:21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.For more stories of courage and faith see the website of The Voice of The Martyrs. When I get the video on site I'll give you a tingle.jouko

DelightedInU wrote:God hasn't stuck His hand out and offered you these things. So why declare you already have them? The theory goes that we need to wash our brains because they are dirty because of us living in this world etcRom12:1-2 The more we wash our brains the more we will think like him and start acting like him. Also the thinking is, if faith comes by hearing, the more we hear ourselves saying it the stronger our faith will be.I used to recite a simalar mantra, but in all honesty, I knew Jesus, had a relationship with him, so I couldn't just declare this out. It was almost if Jesus was looking at me and saying "What are you doing?" It is like standing right before him reading out these lists of things I would like from him, and his like, Huh! "Just talk to me, biff." Well he didn't say biff, but you know what I mean.God BlessZeke

jouko wrote:We received testimonies that between 300 and 1,000 people were killed during these attacks. More died afterward from wounds and disease. Hundreds were abducted. Twenty thousand people were driven out of their homes, their villages burned. At the beginning of June, 700 Shilluks who had fled these attacks reached our distribution site in Payuer, where more than 85,000 internally displaced Christians have taken refuge this year. We knew the situation was desperate when we arrived, because we found the people eating 'apam' [leaves from the Acacia trees]," Phillips said. My comment is below;On which rung of the prosperity ladder would these people come ? Would it be on the top or the bottom or maybe where the Citation is ? That is indeed the nuts and bolts of it isn't it?Sometimes my truth, is just my perception of reality and based upon delusion.humbled :-( Zeke

I agree. People care too much about earth. Real blessing is revival, not wealth. Many of those people who are "blessed" lead mediocre lives and teach a false salvation.Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyesand the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. People that have not heard the gospel are starving to death right now. Those people will die of the horrible pain and then burn in hell.I hope that people enjoy the car that could have saved someone from hell. I am sorry, the money spent on the "blessing" could have been used for better purposes. Look in acts to see what people did with their wealth. They gave it to the cause of Christ. We have an eternity of total utter excstasy, we will have every want wish or dream filled to utter completion just by gazing at our Maker. Who cares about wealth? What benefit is it? Dont store up treasures on earth. People shouldnt be living as if this isnt a battle. You dont relax in battle. You relax in peacetime. You have an eternity of peacetime and about 90 years if you are lucky of wartime. Only care about that what will matter most to you in 10,000 years. Make the most of it while you still have a chance. Our lives are but a vapor. Live so that you can look back for all eternity and smile and say "everything I did was worth it". We screw up so many times, so I doubt any of us will be able to do that. But lets redeem the time we have left and put it to good use rather than wasting time on things that are lame. I would trade one soul for a thousand BMW 7 series. Give to God what you can. You have an eternity to get things. Now is the time to fight. Make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything He commanded us.All to and for Him,John

BornAgain wrote:You are basically telling me that people like Brother Copleand are wrong about Prosperity and Health, because there are people in this world who are sick and who are poor and treated badly? I think, what he was saying, can you imagine going to those people and giving them the same message that the faith guys preach. They may just get stoned or something. In their situation and lifestyle of Christianity, what they have is far more a reality than what happens in the faith guys backyard.Zeke

If you want to get so mad at people who have nice cars, and act as if because they took what their Father wanted to give them, meaning they did GOD'S WILL.What I am saying is if you still care about the things of this world, your heart is not in the right place. Not like any of our hearts are in the right place, as we should be aware that the eyes of the Holy one are on us every moment of the day, yet we dont acknowledge him every second of the day. But scripture shows that we need to not have our hearts so consumed with the world and its pleasures at all. There is a certain minimum level of softness of heart that God demands from the Christian. It is not easy to maintain in this age, but must be at all costs. Do not store up for your selves treasures on earth the word of God commands us. If God blesses you with a car, cool. Let Him do it, there is a balance, and the Spirit will guide in that. But dont demand a right to a nice car, its just a car, its just an estate, its only a trillion dollars. Worthless to you in 10,000 years, so its not that great of a blessing anyway. Its like as important as when your parents gave you a piece of candy when you were five. It wouldnt mean much to you now. Real blessing is God allowing you to adore Him more on earth and to change more lives, those will never get old or lost. The bible says we fix our eyes not on what is seen but what is unseen, for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.All to and for Him,John

You read what you wanted to read in my message and not what the message itself said. I'll read into yours. Because these Christian people have got a priest (pastor) that hasn't got the knowledge they are all doomed and are suffering due to him. The only way they can have a life of prosperity and health is to go to America and get faith from faith and begin to live in faith. Or, because the faith they have in the Lord isn't strong enough they can't conjure up a house that could then be bombed out of existence or not have enough faith to conjure up this Ford 150 so they could drive out of their personal hell to safety. I just wonder where in their case where would that safety be ? How about Pastor Ferdi Wuisan's wife and kids ? Where would they go for safety or how do you explain to them that your faith isn't what it should be or you lack because of your missing knowledge ? Or 17 years old Tara who read the Bible and was nearly beaten to death by her father ? Rhanja Masih who is in prison for his alleged non-faith according to that verse you just used ? He says; I am ready to be crucified for Jesus, I will not deny Him. Would that be faith of the Bible kind of faith or would it be misplaced faith ?Or what kind of faith is this letter from Pastor Rinaldy Damanik to his young daughter;To my sweet heart, Nanda Damanik,Tentena Refugee Camp, Poso.When I decided to go, I had to leave you sick.Now I want to give you certain things you can do.If you have to cry because of me,Shed your tears for fellow refugees.If you miss looking at me,See me in your brothers, sisters and riot victims, which I know well and love.If you miss hugging me, You can always hug me by extending your hands to caress the refugee children, who miss freedom to sleep, play and study.If you think you cannot live without me,Let me be in your prayers, your mind, your words, your songs, your smile and your good attitude.While my jokes, mý smile, my laughter, my silence, my anger, my song and my hands which always caress you have been imprisoned,What are left are my prayers and my hopes for you.I have been imprisoned, I do not know for how long,While I do not know for how long,Trust me, not for one second can the love of God be imprisoned.If you have read this and want to say something to me,Say it in melody and peace of a song to everyone.If you ask where I am,I will answer: For a while I am crossing in the darkness of night to reach the sun in the morning.I do not feel betrayed by anyone and do not want anyone punished.My daughter, let me be the one punished...Immanuel!These people do put their faith in God.How about you and me, do we put our faith in God or in our health and prosperity ?joukoMat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Mat 6:21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be