What would you think of a man who'd say such things?

I'd think he wasn't very original for plagiarizing Adolf Hitler. ;-)

...Utopia?...The glory of the promise of God to His church is far beyond the meaning of this word...Surely it will come, but as of now let us be faithful as Christians, in our hearts, in our words, in our deeds.

Seems to me that the man is a zealot, but realy don't know how far he will do to carry through his ideas.

Well, to my mind were the atrocities suffered by the faithful Christians from those who carry their doctrines(or holiness?) in one hand and the sword in the other hand.

Blessed be the Lord our God who gives us strenth and consolation in those very hard moments.

Hi Wisevirgin,

You give us a very important reminder as we approach election time here in the States. Perhaps even some of us here are still looking for some man to part the sea of all our troubles. I used to wonder how could the secular western civilization ever 'worship' another man, as the bible seems to predict they will. Yet look at Germany 60 years ago...and Germany just a few weeks ago. And it is worse here in the states. Oh how easy it is to make a secular man worship an idol. It is easy because they have no greater God then themselves...this is why secular Europe and America are looking for a political messiah. Having rejected God, their hearts are a vacuum.

There is a price for such idolatry. The bible always knows how to describe the issue in simplest terms.

"But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts..."

MC

Humanism changes clothes once in a while. Today it has a very large wardrobe. And I would guess some whould be appalled if they knew Hitler wore them and allowed it to motivate him. On the other hand they may dismiss the holocaust as a figment of an active imagination.

When I read the lead post the thought occurred to me: wonder what they would say if you did not embrace the doctrines exactly like they think they should be understood and believed? Would they kill you? Likely. Makes the secular look a tad bit more endurable.

Thanks for sharing, wisevirgin.
ginnyrose

You are quoting part of what is believed to be a letter written by Osama bin Laden, from 2002(?).

At first I thought it was Ron Paul because that was the first website that came up when I searched the quote :-P

Jesus said in John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

There is not such a thing as a Christian nation and there will not be one before the millenium.
Neither the USA nor UK or Nagaland in India or Poland are Christian countries or have ever been.
Making Christianity the official and only state religion must end in desaster and apostacy such as the rule of the pacacy which revealed its true character in the inquisition. If Christinity is made religion by decree you are giving it its death blow. Unconverted people hungry for power will ursup it and turn it into a religious regime. Infant baptism will have to become compulsary for its citizens and people will think they can only be saved by complying with the religious requirements of the establishment.

Jesus never said any word against the blatant paganism of the Roman empire which was even more corrupt than our governments now. He had no political agenda, he did not come to save the world but to save us from the world. He compels people to be saved from this perverse and adulterous generation but not to "transform" society by Christian principles. A nation is blessed by leaning on Christian values, which are universally right and true. The church should be light and salt and exercise its positive influence wherever the Lord puts us, but we are never to take over such as the promoters of the Kindom Dominion theology put it.

narrowpath

Nice Post,.....do you also have a date on this writting wisevirgin?

wisevirgin wrote:
"The Government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the
press-in short, we want to burn out the poison of
immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during recent years."

"Woman's world is her husband, her family, her
children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men."

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people."

"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this:that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained.That He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any
danger. I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these paths. No man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence."

"The Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built up. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of national life.The Government regards the Christian confessions
as factors essential to the soul of the people. In the schools, the government will protect the rightful influence of the Christian bodies. We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the people. The Government regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation. The rights of the churches shall not be diminished."

Amen wisevirgin!

Luke 21:1-24
and
Luke 21:25-36

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

[b]31 So likewise ye, [u]when ye see[/u] these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.[/b]

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV

wisevirgin wrote:
Yes! boG is correct.

Osama bin Laden, although he is an enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and a murderer at heart, has accurately described to a large degree the american way.

America never was, nor will be a christian nation. The book, "The Myth of a Christian Nation" throws much light on that faulty premise that america is a christian nation.

Anyone who would think otherwise does not understand the Kingdom of God and the Holy Nation spoken of by Peter.

Would to God that those who go by the name of christian would repent of encouraging the young to enter the U.S. military.

We have no King but Jesus.

We fight under no other banner or name.

And our weapons of warfare are not carnal.

REPENT! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Hi Narrowpath,

You said:
The church should be light and salt and exercise its positive influence wherever the Lord puts us, but we are never to take over such as the promoters of the Kindom Dominion theology put it.
_____________________

AMEN!!! Satan is using that false doctrine to fufill Dan. 7:25 - God will allow it but God wins in the end and we who endure with Him until the end.

Many blessings to you and yours!
Connie

narrowpath wrote:
Jesus said in John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

There is not such a thing as a Christian nation and there will not be one before the millenium.
Neither the USA nor UK or Nagaland in India or Poland are Christian countries or have ever been.
Making Christianity the official and only state religion must end in desaster and apostacy such as the rule of the pacacy which revealed its true character in the inquisition. If Christinity is made religion by decree you are giving it its death blow. Unconverted people hungry for power will ursup it and turn it into a religious regime. Infant baptism will have to become compulsary for its citizens and people will think they can only be saved by complying with the religious requirements of the establishment.

Jesus never said any word against the blatant paganism of the Roman empire which was even more corrupt than our governments now. He had no political agenda, he did not come to save the world but to save us from the world. He compels people to be saved from this perverse and adulterous generation but not to "transform" society by Christian principles. A nation is blessed by leaning on Christian values, which are universally right and true. The church should be light and salt and exercise its positive influence wherever the Lord puts us, but we are never to take over such as the promoters of the Kindom Dominion theology put it.

narrowpath

Have you all noticed that this world is worshipping the word "Change"?

It's everywhere, Globally, even on TBN.

On Praise The Lord program on TNB the other night Mark Chironna and Lance Walnau must have said that word about 50 times and sometimes the other guests said that word 5 times in 2 minutes. It's very sick.

Still rather the wrestle is against the demons behind that word "Change": Notice Daniel 7:25.

WE ARE HERE RIGHT "NOW" seeing Daniel 7:25 take form and shape.

God bless all you saints of God.
Endure with Jesus until the end!
Connie

There is not such a thing as a Christian nation

People, get your facts straight! I lost a more scathing response but this is appalling ...

If you are going to quote the devil, quote him accurately wont you?

[i]"The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam[/i]"

[url=http://www.robert-fisk.com/letter_from_usama_to_america_24Nov2002.htm]Usama bin Ladin's 'letter to the American people'[/url]

I find it arrogant, pathetic, haughty and proud that the rhetoric of ignorance, clipped from a haphazard Googling is to be put on some kind of par of study of American history. The illogic of taking these sentiments to their logical conclusion would have you joining the ranks of the atheists and others to strip mine the back bone of [i]foundational[/i] [u]principles[/u] that this country was set upon. Go on, burn up your currency that still says "In God We Trust" since it was such a betrayal to ascribe anything of a Christian notion. Tell me, would you prefer tyranny? dictatorship? Communism?

From the comfort behind your keyboards you can pontificate all you like and forget the brave, regardless of your disgust - that laid down their lives so that you could post flippant, ignorant commentary.

Think this is some quasi- political slant, a Rah-Rah for the good ol USA? This is not about drawing up sides on a battle field but it is about ignorance and arrogance. Study American History before you go shooting off at the lip and before you start quoting terrorists for support - irregardless of whatever 'truth' ... Did Jesus give satan brownie points for using the scriptures, because they were the scriptures?

Think things through people. Would you have the gall to send this sort of rhetoric to the survivors, the police and firefighters of 911? Who is it that is need of repentance here?

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=fNqdmUnqTJUC&pg=RA1-PA51&lpg=RA1-PA51&dq=It+is+saddening+to+tell+you+that+you+are+the+worst+civilization+witnessed+by+the+history+of+mankind.&source=web&ots=IuhmSAmouj&sig=nqQ21ygWVtF1QeaZPz13Pi_DWv0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PRA1-PA57,M1]The 9/11 Commission Report [/url]

Get your facts straight! Read up on the founding fathers of this once great country - It still is despite the many obvious, glaring and understood maladies, it's sin ... Go on put your money where your mouth is, [i]move![/i]. Move to a third world country and suffer in truth rather than in lip service, ungrateful ....

[url=http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/]Thomas Jefferson Digital Archives[/url]

For those who regurgitate the enemy's lie that this country (the USA) was never founded upon Christian principle, I would remind you that in its infancy there were colonies and constitutions that predated 1776. This land was founded upon pilgrims and puritans and worshippers of Jesus Christ, and His name - once upon a time - was publically invoked in schools, English grammar textbooks and dictionaries were infused with references to God and His Son Jesus Christ, and Holy Scripture was called upon for all instructions in life, whether for moral, educational, or governmental purposes. This was 150 plus years before Jefferson and Franklin and Jay and Hamilton and other framers of the 1776 constitution were even born. Reverend Nathaniel Ward - a Puritan - wrote the very first constitution in North America:

[b]THE LIBERTIES OF THE MASSACHUSETS COLLONIE IN NEW ENGLAND, 1641[/b]

The free fruition of such liberties Immunities and priveledges as [b]humanitie, Civilitie, and Christianitie[/b] call for as due to every man in his place and proportion without impeachment and Infringement hath ever bene and ever will be the tranquillitie and Stabilitie of Churches and Commonwealths. And the deniall or deprivall thereof, the disturbance if not the ruine of both.

We hould it therefore our dutie and safetie whilst we are about the further establishing of this Government to collect and expresse all such freedomes as for present we foresee may concerne us, and our posteritie after us, And to ratify them with our sollemne consent.

Wee doe therefore this day religiously and unanimously decree and confirme these following Rites, liberties and priveledges concerneing our Churches, and Civill State to be respectively impartiallie and inviolably enjoyed and observed throughout our Jurisdiction for ever.

1. No mans life shall be taken away, no mans honour or good name shall be stayned, no mans person shall be arested, restrayned, banished, dismembred, nor any wayes punished, no man shall be deprived of his wife or children, no mans goods or estaite shall be taken away from him, nor any way indammaged under colour of law or Countenance of Authoritie, unlesse it be by vertue or equitie of some expresse law of the Country waranting the same, established by a generall Court and sufficiently published, or in case of the defect of a law in any parteculer case by the word of God. And in Capitall cases, or in cases concerning dismembring or banishment according to that word to be judged by the Generall Court.

2. Every person within this Jurisdiction, whether Inhabitant or forreiner shall enjoy the same justice and law, that is generall for the plantation, which we constitute and execute one towards another without partialitie or delay.

3. No man shall be urged to take any oath or subscribe any articles, covenants or remonstrance, of a publique and Civill nature, but such as the Generall Court hath considered, allowed and required.

4. No man shall be punished for not appearing at or before any Civill Assembly, Court, Councell, Magistrate, or Officer, nor for the omission of any office or service, if he shall be necessarily hindred by any apparent Act or providence of God, which he could neither foresee nor avoid. Provided that this law shall not prejudice any person of his just cost or damage, in any civill action.

5. No man shall be compelled to any publique worke or service unlesse the presse be grounded upon some act of the generall Court, and have reasonable allowance therefore.

6. No man shall be pressed in person to any office, worke, warres or other publique service, that is necessarily and suffitiently exempted by any naturall or personall impediment, as by want of yeares, greatnes of age, defect of minde, fayling of sences, or impotencie of Lymbes.

7. No man shall be compelled to goe out of the limits of this plantation upon any offensive warres which this Comonwealth or any of our freinds or confederats shall volentarily undertake. But onely upon such vindictive and defensive warres in our owne behalfe or the behalfe of our freinds and confederats as shall be enterprized by the Counsell and consent of a Court generall, or by authority derived from the same.

8. No mans Cattel or goods of what kinde soever shall be pressed or taken for any publique use or service, unlesse it be by warrant grounded upon some act of the generall Court, nor without such reasonable prices and hire as the ordinarie rates of the Countrie do afford. And if his Cattle or goods shall perish or suffer damage in such service, the owner shall be suffitiently recompenced.

Hi everyone,

Waltern,

I typed in a portion of one of the phrases that you qouted here and the only entry that came up in the search engine was your post on these forums. I'm not going to repeat the phrase here, I don't want to create another entry in the search engine.

[i]Edited to correct an error in spelling. Also, the word 'phrase' in the above should be paragraph(s) instead. The portion that I submitted to the search engine is from the 5th qoutation in the post and included the first two sentences of the qoutation.[/i]

Is the USA a Christian nation? Most godly folks would quickly say "No!" When one says 'no' we are thinking in terms of the government and its citizens being holy or godly.

Can we look to see exactly why some think it is a "Christian" nation? Perhaps it might suffice to consider how they govern (people are allow freedom of thought, religion, for example) . Or consider those who travel to foreign countries: they tell me they have never before appreciated our country so much as when they returned. My aunt tells me she felt like kneeling to the ground and kissing its soil! and this was from a very conservative Assembly of God lady. Missionaries say the same thing.

Maybe folks are getting the terms godly confused with Christian...In politics the difference is one will employ Christian principles when convenient. To be godly means you follow God regardless of political expediency or convenience. Big difference.

My thoughts,
ginnyrose

Thanks Paul, interesting, I'd never read that before.

As I was taking a walk with my puppy, out in the country, breathtaking beauty all around me, I was contemplating this whole discussion. Praying in regards to it, considering it, and just listening.

[i]To whom much is given, much is required.[/i]Regardless of any political persuasions I think we can all agree that here in the western world we have all been given much from the Lord.

We have opportunity to own several Bibles and read them freely, quote them freely, listen to sermons freely; and to sit in mostly peaceful homes with whatever kind of worship music we appreciate and write on a forum with a form of media that instantly posts to the world.

We can thank God for the freedom to go out into the street, in the grocery store, at some get together and talk freely about the Lord and the hope that He has given us for an eternity that is perfect with Him who is perfect. Without fear of physical abuse.

I can take my granchildren on my knee and tell them how God made each and every flower, each and every wonderful thing we see with our eyes and how God made them for a reason, how He loves them and wants them to know Him; and I have no reprocussions. No one arrests me for teaching children about Jesus.

I can talk with one who has an opposing view and not be arrested for trying to convert someone to my faith.

I have freedom of time, I have freedom to pray for everything that concerns me in this entire world. I have ample opportunity to give to those who struggle in this life, I can teach the neighbor girl 'Jesus Loves Me'. I can even stand on a street corner and sing "Grace, Grace, God's grace, grace that is greater than all our sin." to the top of my lungs and I may get a warning, I may get strange looks, but I would not get stoned.

Should America repent? [i]but now God command that all men everywhere to repent...[/i]

Is America, or any other western country/nation full of wickedness and depravity? [i]For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God[/i]

Are there forces at work behind the scenes that would deceive us? [i]...even now there are many anitchrists; whereby we know that it is the last time[/i]

How should we as Christs representatives on this earth behave? [i]Looking for and hasting unto the coming day of God...Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[/i]

Myself, I long for that day when [i]...the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever...[/i]

Right now, it is my responsibility to BE what God wants me to be on this earth, right where He planted me, wherever that is.

I thought about the words I heard Leonard Ravenhill say in one of his sermons..."Lord, help us to remember, 'it's not my brother, or my sister, but it's ME, oh Lord, standing in the need of prayer.'"

It is not the nations of unregenerate persons God has required to walk Godly, for in their own strength many try to be more righteous and become despising of those who are not as they are.

It is those who are called by the name of God, Christians, who has the greatest need to repent!

We have left our first love, we have allowed the spirit of Baalam inside our churches to spoil and cause stumbling blocks, we have taken the hand of the spirit of Jezebel and allowed other things to take the first place of God within our homes and hearts!

We have a name that we are alive, but so many of the churches are dead we might as well go sit in a cemetary and sing songs!

We're so rich and increased with goods, constantly searching for more, thinking that we have no need of a "provider"... which we don't.

Except that desperate need which says "repent, be zealous, receive correction as a son and daughter, search for Me till you find ME. Behold I stand at the door and knock.....
not at the heart of the unregenerate,
at the heart of the lukewarm church, that are so self satisfied that they point fingers, they judge with their own eyes, they despise the weak things, the small things, the base things that God has called and chosen, they worship wealth and position, knowledge and intellect, giving honor to men more than they do God.

It doesn't matter where you are from, each member of the body of Christ will be held responsible for the words of Christ they have heard and absorbed and not lived by...

I know there are those, that will overcome! Thank God for His infinte mercies! I thank God that while I sit here in the weakness of who I am, I can still hear His voice, His Word, speak to my heart.
[i]If My people, who are called by My name
will humble themselves,
and pray
and seek My face
and turn from [b]their[/b] wicked ways
then I will hear from heaven...[/i]

I'm thankful we belong to a kingdom which is unshakable!

Blessings, please excuse the length of my post.
In Christ, Lori

When we say that the United States had a Christian heritage, this does not imply some type of Constantine empire, or a religious fascist state like those that exist in the Mideast. It is a simple enough fact that the United States was founded at a time when the general social and worldview in our republic was held together through a [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25435&forum=35#198009]Christian consensus[/url]

The consensus was obviously not totally uniform, but it is impossible to read much of 18th and 19th century US history without noticing the influence of Christianity upon the culture. Likewise, it is not possible to read 20th century American history and see the how that influence has been systematically warred against and replaced by other consensus.

The question is, just why has this particular aspect of American history become so controversial in recent years? It is because controlling a nation's history becomes the goal of ideological struggle, much like occupying nation's territory becomes the goal of military struggle.

MC

It is because controlling a nation's history becomes the goal of ideological struggle, much like occupying nation's territory becomes the goal of military struggle.

By carefully eradicating any trace of our country's Christian heritage, and transplanting it with the ubiquitious theory of evolutionary science and death (note: every textbook has illustrations of dinosaurs killing and eating each other, and subliminal references to sea creatures evolving) death taking place supposedly millions of years before a "caveman" even appeared...brothers and sisters, it is a massive, invisible offense by the enemy, a brilliant scheme. The enemy's objective here is to obfuscate the relationship of sin and death in the mind of a very young child, and it's quite brilliant.

If you repeat something enough, it will eventually take hold and proliferate on its own. Keep repeating the mantra [i]"Our founding fathers were deists, our founding fathers were deists..."[/i] This may be true for some of them, but it's nothing but a red herring. What of [i]their[/i] fathers? What of the Christian-American heritage that our great-great grandmothers and grandfathers knew? When secular schools opened each day in prayer, and the word "atheist" was as common on our soil as "zombie" or "communist". It was just something you didn't hear American people identify themselves with - even if they weren't necessarily living godly lives.

Our godly history is being canvassed more and more with each decade that passes, like a teacher erasing a blackboard, a section at a time, gradually, until at last we have a new society, a new secular order with a generation of kids who will know absultely nothing of not only our pre-revolutionary war Christian heritage, but 1776 onward as being a unanimously atheistic setting. I can't imagine what it will be like in another 50 years.

the greatest heresy ever to come upon the church was not the prosperity, or denying the trinity, the gretest deception is that of Constantine. in my opinion. To take and unity church and state.

from being persecuted and murdered, from having thaught in the churches that the highest form of discipleship was martyrdom, not bible study or prayer or fasting. Dying is the highest form of discipleship, from have been hated, persecuted , and tourtured. Feed to the lions, this man made it acceptable, he even gave tax reduction to chrisyian ministers, it became an easy thing to be a christian in this world, he builded churches.

before him the people was the church.

And sadly most of christendom has been decived. I thank God some throughout history saw it, the anabaptists saw it, they confronted their generation and they got the same treatment, they where chased and burned and murdered and spread out into the woods and caves. By christian nations.

There is one Holy nation, it is the kingdom of heaven. Ohh brethren and sisters, why settle for less?

why try re make the creators plan and purposes?

let us seek HIS kingdom and HIS way.

PaulWest wrote:
For those who regurgitate the enemy's lie that this country (the USA) was never founded upon Christian principle, I would remind you that in its infancy there were colonies and constitutions that predated 1776. This land was founded upon pilgrims and puritans and worshippers of Jesus Christ, and His name - once upon a time - was publically invoked in schools, English grammar textbooks and dictionaries were infused with references to God and His Son Jesus Christ, and Holy Scripture was called upon for all instructions in life, whether for moral, educational, or governmental purposes. This was 150 plus years before Jefferson and Franklin and Jay and Hamilton and other framers of the 1776 constitution were even born. Reverend Nathaniel Ward - a Puritan - wrote the very first constitution in North America:

[b]THE LIBERTIES OF THE MASSACHUSETS COLLONIE IN NEW ENGLAND, 1641[/b]

The free fruition of such liberties Immunities and priveledges as [b]humanitie, Civilitie, and Christianitie[/b] call for as due to every man in his place and proportion without impeachment and Infringement hath ever bene and ever will be the tranquillitie and Stabilitie of Churches and Commonwealths. And the deniall or deprivall thereof, the disturbance if not the ruine of both.

We hould it therefore our dutie and safetie whilst we are about the further establishing of this Government to collect and expresse all such freedomes as for present we foresee may concerne us, and our posteritie after us, And to ratify them with our sollemne consent.

Wee doe therefore this day religiously and unanimously decree and confirme these following Rites, liberties and priveledges concerneing our Churches, and Civill State to be respectively impartiallie and inviolably enjoyed and observed throughout our Jurisdiction for ever.

1. No mans life shall be taken away, no mans honour or good name shall be stayned, no mans person shall be arested, restrayned, banished, dismembred, nor any wayes punished, no man shall be deprived of his wife or children, no mans goods or estaite shall be taken away from him, nor any way indammaged under colour of law or Countenance of Authoritie, unlesse it be by vertue or equitie of some expresse law of the Country waranting the same, established by a generall Court and sufficiently published, or in case of the defect of a law in any parteculer case by the word of God. And in Capitall cases, or in cases concerning dismembring or banishment according to that word to be judged by the Generall Court.

2. Every person within this Jurisdiction, whether Inhabitant or forreiner shall enjoy the same justice and law, that is generall for the plantation, which we constitute and execute one towards another without partialitie or delay.

3. No man shall be urged to take any oath or subscribe any articles, covenants or remonstrance, of a publique and Civill nature, but such as the Generall Court hath considered, allowed and required.

4. No man shall be punished for not appearing at or before any Civill Assembly, Court, Councell, Magistrate, or Officer, nor for the omission of any office or service, if he shall be necessarily hindred by any apparent Act or providence of God, which he could neither foresee nor avoid. Provided that this law shall not prejudice any person of his just cost or damage, in any civill action.

5. No man shall be compelled to any publique worke or service unlesse the presse be grounded upon some act of the generall Court, and have reasonable allowance therefore.

6. No man shall be pressed in person to any office, worke, warres or other publique service, that is necessarily and suffitiently exempted by any naturall or personall impediment, as by want of yeares, greatnes of age, defect of minde, fayling of sences, or impotencie of Lymbes.

7. No man shall be compelled to goe out of the limits of this plantation upon any offensive warres which this Comonwealth or any of our freinds or confederats shall volentarily undertake. But onely upon such vindictive and defensive warres in our owne behalfe or the behalfe of our freinds and confederats as shall be enterprized by the Counsell and consent of a Court generall, or by authority derived from the same.

8. No mans Cattel or goods of what kinde soever shall be pressed or taken for any publique use or service, unlesse it be by warrant grounded upon some act of the generall Court, nor without such reasonable prices and hire as the ordinarie rates of the Countrie do afford. And if his Cattle or goods shall perish or suffer damage in such service, the owner shall be suffitiently recompenced.

It may have been founded on some Christian principles, but no kingdom of this world can ever be truly Christian. Satan, for right now, is their ruler. The book, "The Myth of a Christian Nation" deals with this very well and in a biblical manner.

The writings posted by wisevirgin are those of Adolph Hitler, ...

America is\\was a nation founded upon principles. It's laws, it's form of government, it's ideals, it's intentions. They are undeniable. And like it or not they where broadly Christian. That doesn't make it a "Nation" of Christians, or a "Christian Nation" - what would you do ... enforce it? Enforce Christianity upon the masses? Certainly the intent to enforce the laws derived and built upon this foundation but you could not enforce Christianity any more than you can force the scriptures upon anyone other than to conviction without denying their very tenets.

Getting our facts straight is a whole other story if we are going to be authentic.

Educate yourself.

[url=http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/]Religion and the Founding of the American Republic[/url]

HomeFree89 wrote:

It may have been founded on some Christian principles, but no kingdom of this world can ever be truly Christian. Satan, for right now, is their ruler. The book, "The Myth of a Christian Nation" deals with this very well and in a biblical manner.

This is the problem, there may be christian principles so called, but did God call us to establish earthly kingdoms based upon these principles?

[i]They wished to make Christ king, but He fled and did not view it as the arrangement of His Father. Thus shall we do as He did, and follow Him, and so shall we not walk in darkness. For He Himself says, He who wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me[/i]

excerpt from The Schleitheim Confession

we see the principle the Lord used towards this "idea"

While it is true that early colonial America was never meant to be a theocracy, it was founded under the principles of God, and God honored and blessed it as such. The Word of God is clear about honoring and healing lands and nations that fear Him and walk in His statutes. Why do we have to take everything to an absolute extreme and out of context? Of course America is a kingdom of the world, but by the grace of God it was founded upon Christian principle and the Bible, and God has blessed us bountifully. Sometimes I get the feeling that the greatest confusion and opposition to God's rightful relationship with society come from our own camp. A Christian nation doesn't mean the forefathers intended to set up the actual Kingdom of God upon earth - and I don't know of any Puritan or reformer that proposed such a foolish thing - but a nation is Christian by the principle of its inception. The earliest colonies were protestant Christian communities, and their leaders knelt and prayed in Jesus' Name when they landed ashore in Plymouth. This is an indelible truth that Satan would love to eradicate from all the history books. From the very beginning of it's European-civilized infancy, America was founded upon the precepts of Christ.

The slurring of a nation being founded on Christian principle as an ill attempt to set up a theocracy and make Jesus "king" is really a fallacious argument. If a nation has a king that loves the Lord and does what is right, God will honor that land and bless it. The United States is a prime example, and I believe we are living now on borrowed time, grace extended by the godliness of our forefathers long dead - the very ones some of us would displace now with a misunderstanding of their position in society and God. Were you able to teleport back to Jamestown, circa 1620, and ask if this was a Christian society founded under the precepts of God you would get an affirmative answer. If you walked into a schoolhouse and asked the teacher if this were a Christian schoolhouse and they taught the Bible, you would get an affirmative answer. It's that simple.

hmmhmm wrote:

And sadly most of christendom has been decived. I thank God some throughout history saw it, the anabaptists saw it, they confronted their generation and they got the same treatment, they where chased and burned and murdered and spread out into the woods and caves. By [b]christian nations.[/b]

This thing is coming again, and namely it will happen again by "christian" nations, and many christians will be shocked, believing in a lie, that their country and leaders are doing service to God, but the reality is the opposite, just like the Constantine.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, [b]the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. [/b]

Of course, every heathen country is serving God's purposes, including America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Macedonia, Sweden, just like Nebuchadrezzar was called servant of the Lord. (Jer. 25:9)

But as Peter said to the saints, let us not forget:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, [b]an holy nation,[/b] a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Every [b]fleshly[/b] attraction and zeal to our temporary dwelling country that doesn't come from the Holy Spirit, could cost us our very life in these hard times that are coming on this earth. Be aware saints. First christians died because they needed to chose between Caeser/State and their real King, Jesus. It is coming again. "Run for your life" and

let us

Luk 17:32 [b]Remember[/b] Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Dear brother Paul, you said "Our founding fathers were deists, our founding fathers were deists..." This may be true for some of them, but it's nothing but a red herring." dear brother, I can sense some strong desire deep in you do defend these men. You said "it may be true", so if it is true, then it is true, is this hurt some patriotic feelings in you that are not spiritual but earthly and fleshly?

If we go to some Orthodox Church in Macedonia, they will say: "We are proud to be Macedonians and to live here because we are biblical land and we have such a great Godly heritage and we have so many saints" And you know, because you have been to Russia that in these men darkness is living, and yet they are proud and yet they fornicate with the state and yet their saints hasn't been much holy (some of them have been), but they are proud to be Macedonians, but this is all fleshly and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. It has to do with the desires of the flesh, namely national pride. And pride is first step to destruction, the bible says.

The question is: is there in me some national pride, somewhere deep hidden, taught knowingly or unknowingly by the principles of kingdom of this world (which America, as well Macedonia is part of) that I have not allowed yet the Holy Spirit to deal with it? And that it could cost my life very soon?

Let us not forget also,

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and [b]few[/b] there be that find it.

and also:

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that [b]they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.[/b]

Dear brother Paul, you said "Our founding fathers were deists, our founding fathers were deists..." This may be true for some of them, but it's nothing but a red herring." dear brother, I can sense some strong desire deep in you do defend these men. You said "it may be true", so if it is true, then it is true, is this hurt some patriotic feelings in you that are not spiritual but earthly and fleshly?

Listen to sermons by some of the men of God you revere like Keith Daniel and David Wilkerson and Ravenhill and they will also extol the godly virtues of our country when she was young and her sons and daughters feared God and their children were raised in the admonition of the Lord. There's nothing wrong with confessing how God honored this nation above and beyond any other nation on earth...and really how far she's fallen. My point was to show that though this country is indeed a "kingdom of the world", she was one whom God honored because she - in her earliest infancy - was founded upon prayer and the Bible and the fear of God. This, in my estimation, qualified it as "Christian" (for lack of any other religious or philospohical label) from the very beginning, and I don't think anyone can argue this from history.

The question is: is there is me some national pride, somewhere deep hidden, taught knowingly or unknowingly by the principles of kingdom of this world (which America, as well Macedonia is part of) that I have not allowed yet the Holy Spirit to deal with it? And that it could cost my life very soon?

This is the problem, there may be christian principles so called, but did God call us to establish earthly kingdoms based upon these principles?

I don't see how it could be considered contrary to the gospel to establish government based on the principles of Scripture. God has ordained government to keep order and safeguard peace, would it be wrong to establish such government on the principles of the Bible? The founding fathers of this nation didn't think so and neither do I.

I for one thank God that in our system everyone gets a voice and everyone gets a vote. It was Christians who established such a system and as a Christian I will excercise and enjoy those privileges.

In Christ,

Ron

Hey brethren,

I think many are misunderstanding brother Paul and Mike. What is the purpose of all this arguing over the USA while refusing to understand the goodness of God that many have been so privileged to enjoy in a free country but not without responsibilities.

I have never lived in another nation; I was born in the USA. I don’t know what it is like to live in another country. I realize since the Lord Jesus gave me a new birth that I am now part of a kingdom that is not of this world. I am so thankful of my new freedom in Christ that He has liberated me too. He tells me I am to live in this world but not be of it. He also tells me to honor those in government and to live on the earth as a citizen from heaven and also to be a good citizen on the earth. I am to pay taxes and strive to live peacefully with all men. He also tells me that I am to please Him as a good soldier and not to become entangled with the affairs of this life.

There seems to be so much misunderstanding concerning the nations of this world that will one day all bow down to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no nation at this time that the government is Christian because there are only the governments of this world. There will be no Christian nation on the earth until Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom. I think all true Christians should understand this. I must also say that I am not one of those who put down the USA because that would be ungrateful to the blessings of God and to the price of our freedom. I have seen and heard of so many that are suffering under ungodly dictatorship, atrocities, and so much suffering. I am very thankful for the dedicated men and women who have sacrificed their lives so that I live in a free nation. It is so very sad that many in America don’t appreciate the blessings they have been privileged to enjoy.

I also believe that many founding fathers of the USA were guided by the wisdom of God. The government of the USA was established mainly upon the Judea/Christian concept. They also kept the government separate from the Church because I believe many knew that the Church is a heavenly institution and that government was not to interfere with the Church. They wanted people to abide by good laws and to be free from dictatorship. There is no doubt to any serious observer that the USA was founded on Christian principles and that much good, many missionaries, and much of the gospel at one time was and still is flourishing from this Country. The values of most that lived in this country at one time were based on the bible and most non Christians even respected the God of the Christian. Many in the USA will be judged more severely because they have rejected the light (truth that many have not had the opportunity to experience) like no other nation.

In closing, I pray for the people in the USA to wake up to the many blessings God has bestowed upon them and the responsibility that we have to others. The freedoms we have in America came at a great price and we are given a responsibility to do good and as Christians we should be witnessing to the lost and promoting the kingdom of God. I pray that many will be saved from their greed and pride of thinking that they are better than others. Jesus is not returning for Americans or any other nationality of people per se, only His blood bought glorious church.

I also believe that it is not wrong to thank God for his blessings on the USA and to recognize the good Christian influence that is at the foundation from the beginning.

Brother Paul, I want to tell you that appreciate your response and the clarification of your thoughts.

This says all:

as I took the stars and stripes to the cross the day I got saved.

This is the core. The foundation. The place where all prides, "me first", "mine", you name it, are dealt with. Everything else after that gets new meaning.

Let me expand my thoughts: Observing the American Christianity as an outsider, I can see that many of the Christians in America have not yet died to this very thing - American national pride. I think it was brother Len whom I heard saying "We are too American", maybe it was Art Katz, I don't remember correctly right now, and in this sense of being too American, I am afraid that it could blind the eyes of many to many lies and unrealities presented and propagated in the name of good will or if you want in the name of "christian" heritage. Actually the state of pride closes your eyes to see what is going on in you and around you, including your country. Such pride and naivety easy can open a door of a great deceptions, coming in the name of "old glory" and christianity, which I can see already, including christians in this forum, which have even posting threads without being recognized as dangerous from other members.

Also very important in the times in which we are living, similar pride that blinds the eyes could open the door and many will and if not are already bowing to the spirit of the Antichrist and his system and being deceived, thinking that this is just part of culture or of the good intention of our leaders and nation for our own safety and well-being and freedom.

That's why I said that every fleshly attraction, including nationalistic about which I am talking now, that is not born from above, could cost us much. Every naivety could cost us much, because it could throw us in many unrealities. And when I am talking about this, I don't mean some imaginary things, but everyday things like what we work, what we eat, what we sign, what we watch, what we listen, education etc. These are the fields and places and decisions where our faith is put into practice.
Brother, I can see many american christians live in extreme unreality caused just by this very thing, being blinded by the national pride without open eyes to discern the truth in their everyday actions, and thus helping the preparation the path of the Antichrist, directly being enemies to our Lord.

In the end, I want to say that I don't believe in a christian nation, because there is not such thing defined or instructed in the bible, and if it is not, we are entering a dangerous area of introducing ourselves into dangerous doctrines and practices and deceptions, like right now is going on in the midst of many conservative* christians, BUT at the same time I cannot ignore that America has produced many godly men (maybe much more than other) which were and are yet for our great examples, but I don't see them as nothing more than a part of the God's holy nation, people "called out of darkness into his marvellous light", part of the [i]few[/i] who chose the narrow gate, being from America, Macedonia and "every nation, and kindred, and tongue". And I don't see any foundation that we could be proud of being born in one or another country, because we did nothing this to happen, this was all according to His mercy and His eternal purposes for our lives, no matter we were born in America or Indonesia.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Should not this makes us humble, instead of proud? His mercy should break us.

What are you thoughts, brother?

*I said conservative because I am excluding here the "obvious" modern day doctrines of demons, you know what I am talking about.

The values of most that lived in this country at one time were based on the bible and most non Christians even respected the God of the Christian.

Rightly or wrongly ... could we say this today? I know we could take it apart and remark about those who 'believe', who give lip service. But there was such a time that at least this much was very true, I cannot help but wonder if even the non-believer had a stronger sense of conviction just by the character and general atmosphere of the times ...

America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.

Have heard this quote many times and never knew who said it. Thanks Waltern.

I do wish to apologize for some of the unnecessary harshness and rhetoric of my own earlier. I did not take kindly to a sort of reversal of antagonists as fodder for what most of us are already quite plainly aware of. The intent I realize was not placed with that which I might have tried to give it ...

However, the notions and clarifications I think are important enough to try and get straight.

National pride. This, while often true is not true of myself nor Paul and many others. I think it is a misnomer itself. We do come back to an either\\or mindset that often comes about here if we are in the position of seemingly 'defending' that which we are trying to be only factual, accurate, historical about and drawing off from those things. There is no need to characterize things in such stark shades.

This country has major problems and most of the bellyaching comes from it's constituents. It is far too simple to simply state that it has it's good and bad points ... who doesn't? "We" are strangely cursed by our blessings, practically, have overdosed on them. Gratitude has gone to gratification [i]now[/i], it has busted the balloon that is our economy and revealed the major flaw in the overall morality which is, as it has always been - sin. "We" can and "we" do speak a great deal about it, our better preachers though they seem to be in the minority and the great living dead that are put forth here on SI all have spoken volumes on our woes and the failings of the Church on these shores. So it cannot be national pride that we are after here and forgive me if I am stretching the credulity of the point ...

We only have what we can read and lay our hands on to make up for lack of experience of how life must be elsewhere, but it is enough for me to imagine and realize that for those of us who were born into this land we are most blessed and ought to be more thankful if not maybe ... disheartened that this opulence is really detrimental to us - It creeps into our pores not necessary as pride of country but of circumstantial day to day living it's that kind of "this is how we do things over here" - again rightly or wrongly. It's the culture and that which those of us who have our deep seated convictions are fighting against. I would not expect nor ask for a sympathy - it is an incredible thing to fight against that which all around you is a polar opposite, I do not doubt it is any different anywhere else, maybe we have a few more temptations ...

That is all a great divergence, to get back to the point ...

What came to mind as well was something that struck me as a possible inference from some of the comments here; It almost seems that we shouldn't have any of these things from the tone of the replies. Do not base your government on biblical principles. Do not above all propagate the gospel to the point where your country becomes ... a nation of Christians? It is an extreme piece of hyperbole but ... what do we want revival for then? That the people might actually turn? Goodness, we are not repeating the error of Jonah here are we?

I think some of us are reacting towards the stereotypes in either direction - The black and white of whether or not "we" are or ever were a "Christian Nation". That is too easy. It depends on the definitions that are poured into it, it depends on just who 'we" represents. The history is there and can be explored from it's inceptions - What were they fleeing from and desiring to establish? What did they indeed establish and on what principles? I could answer the generalized question in the affirmative and the negative - I would say no, we are not a Christian Nation and never were if that means the entire population walked in lock step with every precept in the scriptures. I could answer yes we once were in a majority sense, in prinicple and conduct in those things that have already been pointed out - education (the bible playing a large part) and righteousness of the constitution and so forth. But as born again, dedicated disciples in total, in 100% agreement and obedience ... isn't this what we wait in great anticipation for? The soon return of the Lord? It will never happen apart from Him, we all know this.

Thankfulness. Perhaps that was and is part of my revulsion earlier. I am truly thankful, everyday. Over the silliest things that I am quite convinced the vast majority wouldn't give a seconds notice towards. If it's boasting then so be it, but I cannot recall a single day that I am not amazed at the dichotemy of what I deserve over that which I recieve. I am a horrible wretch, a man of unclean thought's, a fool, an ignoramius - often confused and bewidlered by my own folly and pride, my regrets, my fuzzyheadedness. I almost always regret writing anymore and will likely regret this as well. I do not have it all together in any sense of the word, even this is based on the bit's and pieces that have accumalated over the years, a bit of research, a bit of reading. There are far better brothers and sisters here who could give us all an education on the history of this country and that does not make them nationalists for doing so, hopefully it is just to get to the accuarcy of the historical narrative despite whatever ... liberal (or conservative for that matter) embellishment or revisionist mindset would like to present it as.

It does irk me to hear a misrepresentation of anything, especially history ... maybe it is just due to the abuse of the greatest of all histories and that which hides everything in plain sight - The scriptures. In other words it doesn't - warts and all. America is no different.

Brother Mike,

"It almost seems that we shouldn't have any of these things from the tone of the replies. Do not base your government on biblical principles. Do not above all propagate the gospel to the point where your country becomes ... a nation of Christians? It is an extreme piece of hyperbole but ... what do we want revival for then? That the people might actually turn? Goodness, we are not repeating the error of Jonah here are we?"

I think you've asked some penetrating questions here Mike. Or we could ask also, why pray for those in authority?

But we are given the admonition to pray for them, so that

[i]...we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.[/i]

And shouldn't we pray for them to make good and right decisions according to the will of God?

I was reminded how Paul told king Agrippa, and not only him but all those who heard him there, who according to Acts 25:23 included "the chief captains, and principal men of the city" and also Festus the Roman governor, to all of these: a Jewish king, a Roman govenor, military men, and 'great' men, to them he says:

"I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds."

Even Zecharias, the father of John the Baptist, seems to express something of living in peace and serving God when he prophesied at the birth of his son(See Luke 1:67-75).

And would it be wrong to live in a nation that granted liberty and peace to its citizens to serve God according to their conscience?

I thought too of how it is written in Isaiah chapter 52

"...the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [i]that[/i] which had not been told them shall they see; and [i]that[/i] which they had not heard shall they consider."

- Isaiah 52:15(KJV)

I remember hearing in a message here(SI) on prayer in history, the story was told of a well know preacher of the day(I think it was in England or Scotland) who was preaching in the audience of the king and how the king was not being respectful. And at one point he says, maybe even addressing the king directly(I don't remember for sure), he says something close to this:

[b]It behooves all kings to be quiet while the Lion of Judah is roaring[/b]

Or what of the word in the 2nd Psalm

"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling."

Or again in Isaiah,

"And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising."

Is it wrong for a nation of people to seek to remember God(Psalm 9:17)? Or for its leaders to encourage it?

"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

- Proverbs 29:2(KJV)

As far as I know, no one here has suggested joining "Church and State".

Wish you all well,

Chris

[i]Edited to correct an error in spelling[/i]

Excellent verses brother ...

[i]...we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.[/i]

Especially was running through the thoughts.

As far as I know, no one here has suggested joining "Church and State".

Precisely. Freedom within limits or bounds, the principles and laws that still make this the country one that others wish to come to because of it's freedoms. (Or maybe in this hour one that they would flee from for it's very indulgences). The clever catch phrase of 'not being able to legislate morality' may be meant by iron rule but that doesn't stop us from being living convictions ... My thoughts are a bit jumbled but as an aside - Even in this predominantly liberal state of California there is a referendum coming up here shortly on the marriage amendment - The one that got some ink when the judges over ruled the people and attempted to redefine the very principle and meaning of the word ... I pray and hope that it might give the world a fit that of all people those 'left coast-ers' confound the minds and over rule, keeping the terminology and the marriage bonds sacred. It's a backward way of coming at just who 'we' might be. In other words it is the same as the argument of America as a whole, as a "Christian Nation" (Foundationaly speaking!) - It depends on who you ask ...

Need to dig it up, think it is in my files somewhere - But I recall having a copy of the "Primer" that was taught in schools in the early days. I remember reading through it and being even a bit surprised just how much 'religion' was in it. This whole argument (The separation of 'Church and State') has been so convoluted from both sides ... Is this not our greatest problem? These great black\\white - hard, unmovable stereotypes. You do a little digging, a little research and instantly - Into this camp you go - Give it a title and it is all encompassing. Redundant rant ...

THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER

The New England Primer was a textbook used by students in New England and in other English settlements in North America. It was first printed in Boston in 1690 by Benjamin Harris who had published a similar volume in London. It was used by students into the 19th century. Over five million copies of the book were sold.

In the 1700's schools in the colonies were strongly influenced by religion. It was the intent of the colonists that all children should learn to read and in 1642 Puritan Massachusetts passed a law stating this. They believed that an inability to read was Satan's attempt to keep people from the Scriptures.

The New England Primer followed a tradition of combining the study of the alphabet with Bible reading. It introduced each alphabet letter in a religious phrase and then illustrated the phrase with a woodcut. The primer also contained a catechism of religious questions and answers. Emphasis was placed on fear of sin, God's punishment and the fact that all people would have to face death.

Here are some examples of alphabet rhymes that teach moral values as well as reading.

A In Adam's Fall
We sinned all.
B Thy Life to Mend
This Book Attend.
C The Cat doth play
And after slay.
D A Dog will bite
A Thief at night.
E An Eagle's flight
Is Out of sight.
F The Idle Fool
Is Whipt at School.

Also, first appearing in the New England Primer was the Children's Prayer beginning "Now I lay me down to sleep..."

Prepared by Mary O'Neill

[url=http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/neprimer.html]THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER [/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A full version;

[url=http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nep/1777/index.htm]THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER - 1777 Edition[/url]

The one I had in mind may have been;

[url=http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nep/index.htm]The New England Primer - [1843][/url]

An excerpt;

This was a standard reader in New England in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was apparently used in both public and Sunday (religious) schools. At that time children of all ages studied in the same classroom, so it has portions oriented towards younger and older students.

Besides instruction in the alphabet, the New England Primer also served to indoctrinate young minds in the stern and somewhat morbid Protestantism of that time and place. Depending on your viewpoint, it is either yet another example of how religion has been excised from the public schools in the United States, or a quaint sample of what our forefathers considered acceptable as 'moral education'.

The New England Primer also has examples of religious intolerance, specifically anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic statements, which reflect then-contemporary attitudes.

This particular book went through a number of editions. This version was scanned from an copy in the possession of my family which was published in 1843. An earlier version, dated 1777, is also available here.

--J.B. Hare.

Couldn't help but note this ...

[b]Words of six Syllables.[/b]

A-bo-mi-na-ti-on
Gra-ti-fi-ca-ti-on
Be-ne-fi-ci-al-ly
Hu-mi-li-a-ti-on
Con-ti-nu-a-ti-on
I-ma-gi-na-ti-on
De-ter-mi-na-ti-on
Mor-ti-fi-ca-ti-on
E-di-fi-ca-ti-on
Pu-ri-fi-ca-ti-on
Fa-mi-li-a-ri-ty
Qua-li-fi-ca-ti-on

Abomination, mortification, humiliation ...

Children mind you ...

Mike,

I believe you're reading us all wrong. I'm not trying to smear America or say that there weren't any Christian principals or even that some of the founding fathers were Christian. That's not at all what I'm saying.

The Bible is clear that Satan is the ruler of this world and all kingdoms within it. Christ set up a different kingdom, not intending to tweak the kingdoms of this world. All though some nations have done a better job at following biblical standards and laws, they're still a kingdom if this world, nothing more nothing less.

That is why I say that America isn't currently or ever has been a Christian nation.

Jordan

The Bible is clear that Satan is the ruler of this world and all kingdoms within it. Christ set up a different kingdom, not intending to tweak the kingdoms of this world. All though some nations have done a better job at following biblical standards and laws, they're still a kingdom if this world, nothing more nothing less.

Though no one is arguing that America is a Christian "kingdom", on this earth we have Muslim nations, Buddhist nations, and Christian. Russia is considered Eastern Orthodox and Imperial Spain and Portugal were Roman Catholic back in their golden days. Why do you not take umbrage when someone labels Sudan a "Muslim" nation? It's because it is! America was founded by Christians, and in its birth and earliest legislation and constitution, America was run by protestant Christians - just as Saudi Arabia is Musilm or Nepal is ruled by Buddhists.

Most of the greatest law universities in this land - which are now secular - like Harvard and Cambridge were also founded by Christians, and were, at their birth, Christian universities because in them the Bible was taught and preached and regarded as the sole authority. Just because it is no longer like that doesn't mean it never happened. The fact that Satan rules the world doesn't negate the fact that Harvard was once a Christian university.

Brother Paul,

They regarded themselves officially as a Christianitie societie and there's no getting around that, no matter how much you dislike it.

Quotes like this show that you aren't understanding what I mean. It's not that I "dislike" it or am unthankful for this country. I truly believe there is no "Christian" nation.

You can quote the founding fathers and tell me about the laws schools all you want, but that won't change my mind. I have read much of our (american) history and think a lot of this country, but I disagree with you and that's ok.

Any kingdom of this world, no matter how closely it follows the Bible is still that, just a kingdom of this world. Even though America may have followed biblical principles then many other countries, I still don't see it as a "Christian" nation.

These are the great forefathers of our country, and their great-grandchildren fought England in the Revolutionary war.

The Revolutionary war is just an example of how our founding fathers didn't handle things biblically.

Edit: I wanted to mention that I understand what you're saying about the "muslim" nations, etc. My respomse would be that those countries are just operating in a more blatant, "power over" kingdom-of-this-world style. The "power over" ruling has still been America's style, even if it was less blatant.

You can quote the founding fathers and tell me about the laws schools all you want, but that won't change my mind.

Any kingdom of this world, no matter how closely it follows the Bible is still that, just a kingdom of this world. Even though America may have followed biblical principles then many other countries, I still don't see it as a "Christian" nation.

I wanted to mention that I understand what you're saying about the "muslim" nations, etc. My respomse would be that those countries are just operating in a more blatant, "power over" kingdom-of-this-world style. The "power over" ruling has still been America's style, even if it was less blatant.

Well, this may be (power or no, I don't see the real connection - what you're talking about seems a bit subjective and moot); they are still considered offical "Muslim nations", and I feel as though you may applying a double-standard to make your point...and it's not jibing. In your eyes, is Egypt a Muslim nation/country? If you say yes, your argument here crumbles to pieces. You just can't well say Egypt is Muslim nation or Nepal a Buddhist nation and then say Early America wasn't anyhing - when all the evidence, even the first constitution of North America mentions itself as a Christian society and judges were Puritan, where schoolhouses collectively taught the Bible and mayors and town magistrates were sworn in on the Bible.

The Revolutionary war is just an example of how our founding fathers didn't handle things biblically.

Incidentally, Jordan, I agree with you about the kingdoms of the world and Satan being the master of them. It is impossible to have a Christian nation [i]in spirit[/i] here on Earth; that is, a genuine body of believers compartmentalized and confined to some particular nation. The remnant of the Body of Jesus Christ is few and scattered, the true church has no geographic boundaries or human legislation written with uninspired strokes of ink on paper.

When I say America was once upon a time a Christian nation, I mean to say this was how she saw herself (and others saw her), this was the purpose and ideal of the Pilgrim circa 1620. But, yes, I see your point...and you are absolutely right.

God bless you brother

Paul

To those who declare that the USA is not and never has been a Christian nation consider that no one is declaring that the USA is a "holy" nation. What is meant is that the way it is being governed is based on Judeo-Christian principles, albeit, that in its current state there is a swift departure from this stance.

I have done jury duty several times. The most serious one dealt with a murder case and the most recent one occurred 19 months ago when I served on the grand jury. I must say that every time I served I was always amazed at how the attorneys, including the prosecutor (can't say this about the judge) worked at being fair and honest. And I could see in action Judeo-Christian principles. To suggest that our county must be the exception could be no further from the truth. Just suffice it to say it has plenty of problems.

We are debating opinions as one sees it from their situation in life. As such there will likely never be an agreedment on this question. Are we not glad this is something for God to decide?

Opps, having said that I still think abortion and its cousins is a blot on on our nation...

Just my thoughts on this situation...

ginnyrose

It is perhaps helpful to consider that the Puritans that settled this continent in the 17th century, considered the family to be both a little church and a little commonwealth. Accordingly, they approached the scriptures as having wisdom for governing both of these spheres in their lives as Christians.

It was a basic precept to them that the scriptures had something to say to both the church and the commonwealth. It is not that they saw the spheres as being the same, because they are not, but to understand that scripture addresses both separately according to their rightful purpose.

Yet, that they believed scriptures gave instruction to both spheres, did not mean that they gave themselves to either sphere without reservation. They regarded both the public church and the civil government with a healthy mixture of thankfulness for it's blessings, duty for it's responsibilities, and abstinence from it's corruptions. They regarded both the healthy public church and civic government as blessings, but ultimately not necessities to live faithfully with God.

They could participate in both public church worship and public government leadership with wariness because they considered their connection to Christ as their first loyalty, and viewed their own family church and commonwealth as their first duty.

If you understand these tensions, between spiritual and civil spheres, and between domestic and public living, you can better understand what is meant when we say the "Christian heritage" of the United States. The choice is not between the two extremes of either blind obedience to both religious and civil spheres, or blind disdain for both religious and civil spheres. The American heritage is living responsible lives before God according to how scripture addresses both spiritual and civil government; first beginning inside the family and then moving outward towards society.

It is also this very biblical social framework that is all but extinct in 21st century America, as well as Europe, and is resulting in chaotic fractured self seeking societies whose only common value seems to be socialistic material entitlement instead of spiritual and civil responsibility.

Blessings,

MC

Another reason we must have the integrity to admit the Christian based heritage of the United States, is so that we can have integrity in facing what she has become today. Perhaps the sphere of civil government based on self-responsibility as the founding fathers envisioned it can no longer survive within the technocratic socialistic machinery that the modern state has become. The coming man of lawlessness will be a law unto himself, and he requires a powerful totalitarian apparatus to enforce that law.

Twenty years ago I could not see how Americans, who were proudly throwing off their religious heritage, would ever stoop to worship a mere man. Yet today in this country we can already watch children singing hymns of adoration to a presidential candidate as if we are taking on some shades of North Korea, Stalinist Russia, or Nazi Germany. This would have been an abomination to our forefathers.

The world's story is unfolding just as the bible said it would. As the modern technological and economic state becomes increasingly anti-christ, let's try to preserve both Godly churches and Godly government within the domestic sphere of our families. In this way, we can preserve a little longer the heritage that was given to us by our ancestors.

LET'S CULTIVATE SIMPLICITY AND SOLITUDE - PART ONE

By A. W. Tozer

We Christians must simplify our lives or lose untold treasures on earth and in eternity.

Modern civilization is so complex as to make the devotional life all but impossible. It wears us out by multiplying distractions and beats us down by destroying our solitude, where otherwise we might drink and renew our strength before going out to face the world again.

"The thoughtful soul to solitude retires," said the poet of other and quieter times; but where is the solitude to which we can retire today? Science, which has provided men with certain material comforts, has robbed them of their souls by surrounding them with a world hostile to their existence. "Commune with your own heart upon your bed and be still" is a wise and healing counsel, but how can it be followed in this day of the newspaper, the telephone, the radio and the television? These modern playthings, like pet tiger cubs, have grown so large and dangerous that they threaten to devour us all. What was intended to be a blessing has become a positive curse. No spot is now safe from the world's intrusion.

One way the civilized world destroys men is by preventing them from thinking their own thoughts.

Our "vastly improved methods of communication" of which the shortsighted boast so loudly now enable a few men in strategic centers to feed into millions of minds alien thought-stuff, ready-made and predigested. A little effortless assimilation of these borrowed ideas and the average man has done all the thinking he will or can do. This subtle brainwashing goes on day after day and year after year to the eternal injury of the populace - a populace, incidentally, which is willing to pay big money to have the job done, the reason being, I suppose, that it relieves them of the arduous and often frightening task of reaching independent decisions for which they must take responsibility.

There was a time, not too long ago, when a man's home was his castle, a sure retreat to which he might return for quietness and solitude. There "the rains of heaven may blow in, but the king himself cannot enter without permission," said the proud British, and made good on their boast. That was home indeed. It was of such a sacred place the poet sang:

O, when I am safe in my sylvan home,
I tread on the pride of Greece and Rome;
And when I am stretched beneath the pines,
Where the evening star so holy shines,
I laugh at the love and pride of men,
At the sophist schools, and the learned clan;
For what are they all, in their high conceit,
When man in the bush with God may meet?

Ralph Waldo Emerson in Good-bye

While it is scarcely within the scope of the present piece, I cannot refrain from remarking that the most ominous sign of the coming destruction of our country is the passing of the American home. Americans live no longer in homes, but in theaters. The members of many families hardly know each other, and the face of some popular TV star is to many wives as familiar as that of their husbands. Let no one smile. Rather should we weep at the portent. It will do no good to wrap ourselves in the Stars and Stripes for protection. No nation can long endure whose people have sold themselves for bread and circuses. Our fathers sleep soundly, and the harsh bedlam of commercialized noise that engulfs us like something from Dante's Inferno cannot disturb their slumber. They left us a goodly heritage.

To preserve that heritage we must have a national character as strong as theirs. And this can be developed only in the Christian home.

PaulWest wrote:
Incidentally, Jordan, I agree with you about the kingdoms of the world and Satan being the master of them. It is impossible to have a Christian nation [i]in spirit[/i] here on Earth; that is, a genuine body of believers compartmentalized and confined to some particular nation. The remnant of the Body of Jesus Christ is few and scattered, the true church has no geographic boundaries or human legislation written with uninspired strokes of ink on paper.

When I say America was once upon a time a Christian nation, I mean to say this was how she saw herself (and others saw her), this was the purpose and ideal of the Pilgrim circa 1620. But, yes, I see your point...and you are absolutely right.

God bless you brother

Paul

Thanks for this post. I am sorry for how I've handled this. I believe it is time for me to step out of this thread due to my attitude and arguing. Please forgive me, Brother.

The coming man of lawlessness will be a law unto himself, and he requires a powerful totalitarian apparatus to enforce that law.

This reminds me of something DeVern Fromke wrote...
There are three fundamental types of government which issue out of God's order of things. They are theocracy, anarchy and totalitarianism.

In order to understand government, we must return to a proper starting point in God. When we recognize that God, who is the ultimate source of rights, has desired that man should be only a proximate source of rights, we can understand what happened to Adam in the garden. According to God's design, Adam was to have yielded all his rights to God, thereby allowing God to rule through him as a vice-regent in the earth. Had Adam and his posterity followed this plan, it would have meant theocracy-the wonderful government of God over all the universe. Instead Adam chose to keep those rights for himself. Governed by his appetite, he entered upon a course of self-rule which actually brought anarchy. He wanted to be a god in his own right-free to do that which seemed right in his own eyes. This in essence is the spirit of anarchy which has ruled in rebellious hearts since the Fall.

If we are honest enough to face the full implications of this principle, we will see that democracy can work only as long as men deliberately choose God as their individual ruler and submit themselves and their rights to Him. As God is allowed to set up a theocracy over individual lives of a people, they are able to maintain freedom from oppression. Now let us see what has happened to our democracy. Because of the utter selfishness of men, our citizens have insisted on using their rights for their own welfare and benefit. The spiritually dead are alive only to appetite. Instead of living unto God with concern for the needs of others, each has done that which seems right in his own eyes. As a result the trend in recent years has been for government to step in to curb selfish tendencies. Although the people have not, in the constitution, given the government the right to do this, it has usurped more power to act for what it calls ''the common good." The power of the class has been discovered and exploited, and our present trend toward a welfare state has the inherent seeds of totalitarianism.

In Christ,

Ron

Hi again everyone,

I just finished watching the DVD [i]Obsession, Radical Islam's War Against the West[/i]. One of the things that struck me was the connection that was made by way of comparison between Radical Islam and Nazi Germany. The comparisons, if accurate, were very striking, from the indoctrination of the youth to even the hand gestures or salute.

No imagination was nescessary.

Children holding automatic weapons is a vivid picture.

No guessing required.

the trend in recent years has been for government to step in to curb selfish tendencies.

When I was even just a little boy learning about the man of lawlessness, I inherently understood that there was some kind of paradox in the fact that the highest legislator in the world would be, in fact, lawless to God. There is much to be contemplated in this paradox, because it reveals that ultimately we are not lawful because we respect any set of laws, but only when we respect God's laws. Though we are told to submit to the state for God's sake, this is not an elevation of the state, but a promise that the state is going to be judged by God.

So, when we see a new generation of leaders who hold themselves unaccountable to God, they are men of lawlessness. They may have all the best humanistic intentions to bring order and progress to civilization, and they may even go so far as giving lip service to religious people groups, but at the end of the day, if they ignore God's laws, they have become lawbreakers.

God is the righteous judge according to his laws, and a lawful people are hungry for his righteous judgement. This is because his judgement is synonymous with justice, while the law contrived within man's heart can only achieve injustice. Yet, not only within political circles, but also church circles, the people cry out for God not to judge them. This is also evidence that our society has become lawless and unjust.

This paradox of the man of lawlessness is also found in the complex of laws man creates to regulate human depravity. It is paradoxical that the man of lawlessness builds a tower of confusion, an enchiridion of hypocritical and contradictory ad-hoc legislation to keep his lawless civilization from destroying itself.

In this way, a confused and incompetent government is not the angry hand of God coming towards us, but the merciful hand of God lifting off of us. Some of us in calmer times have been conservatives or liberals, but none of that matters if we love their cause more then God's laws. Liberals and even conservative politicians have become bloated bureaucrats wandering lawlessly in the dark, We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. but we can and will by the overflowing grace of God, remain men and women of Heaven's laws, children of the light.

Blessings brethren,

MC