You Need the Baptism of the Holy Spirit -Wilkerson

Romans 8: 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Josef, I believe scripture here tells us what we need to know.

No Spirit, no Christ in You!

To say many Christians are walking around without the Blessing is hog wash. The Issue is; Are many who say they are saved, walking around without Christ?

There are no scriptures that say The Baptism of the Holy Spirit .

Our Baptism is that Baptism into His death and resurrection life. His resurrection Life is the Spirit of the Life of Christ who set us free from the law of sin and death.

The real issue......have you been set free from the Law of sin and death?

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

There absolutely is a reference to a baptism with the Holy Spirit...Luke 3:16 is a stunning reminder of our need to be totally immersed in a Holy Spirit Baptism. Whether you wish to use the word “baptism” or “filling” for me is not so important. One thing is crystal clear in the scriptures is that we need to be continually “Filled” with the Holy Spirit. While I receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, He has yet not received all of me. Those that were filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 are gathered again in Acts 4 for a prayer meeting and “the placed were they were assembled was shaken and they were all filled with Holy Spirit” again. One thing is for sure…we need to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.

Rick Webb
Michigan

I felt such a stirring inside as I read these posts. I don't want to start a debate about this, but I must say this: to tell someone Scripture doesn't teach that believers must experience a subsequent work of the Holy Spirit after their initial salvation is to lie to them and with hold from them the full counsel of God. Jesus said I will send you a Comforter, and He shall be with you and in you. He went on to describe all the work this precious Holy Spirit would do for and in us.The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a separate work from being born again. A baby doesn't grow up overnight, and neither does a Christian.

In 7 years of church attendance, I have never seen anyone get the baptism. To say there are many Christians walking around with out this blessing is not hogwash. It's sad, but true. I see it in the churches in my area. It's rampant. Why else is the church of this time so desperately ineffective? Why else are the services so routine, so predictable? Too much self in the pulpit and not enough Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Ghost, when you dig into the Greek on this means to be completely washed, (of carnality) immersed in the Spirit of God, that includes your mind, your passions, your desires, your thoughts, your ways, your mouth, everything you are. I'm not saying there won't be a struggle to resist temptation, but there will be a major change. Before this, Peter was timid, afraid to speak out, even denied the Lord. After this, he was bold as a lion and cared not that it might cost him his head to preach the Gospel. No longer was he hiding in fear but standing in the temple, preaching, even able to rejoice after having been beaten. This requires more power than we have at conversion, until we receive the fullness of the Spirit. The disciples were saved. They were able to work miracles, they were given power over the spirits, and able to heal, in His name. But they could not be witnesses without this power and that is why Jesus commanded them to wait in Jerusalem until they were. He said don't leave until you are endued with power from on high and THEN you will be my witnesses. That is the pattern for effective witnessing. Tarry in His presence until He fills you. THEN go forth as one sent in the Spirit not in self. Then there will be results.

The consuming fire of God burns up the chaff. The Holy Ghost came on Jesus as a dove-but on the 120 as tongues of fire. He had nothing to burn up in Christ, but the others needed the chaff burnt up. This is necessary, I know.

In Eph 5:18 He says "Be filled with the Spirit" When you dig into the Greek, this means a continual and regular filling. The Bible also says no man can (truthfully) say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit. (1 Cor 12:3)No man can let (fully yield himself and all he is) for Jesus to be Lord of his life without the power of the Holy Spirit.

It takes the power of the Holy Spirit to come on and fill us within to make us the witnesses "Martus" in the Greek, (Acts 1:8) to empower us to lay our self life down, and let Jesus be Lord of all of us. Remember, a witness is not someone who hands out Gospel tracts and talks about Jesus. It is someone who has firsthand, intimate knowledge of Him. One who is full of His life. Then they are an accurate representative of Him as He was of the Father.

We are born in self, raised in self, live in self and taught to improve and pacify self through out our lives so much that it is impossible to overcome self without the power of the Holy Ghost.

This is something I thought optional and beyond my reach until God began to stir me to dig deeper in His Word. You can't fully live the life of Christ unless you die to self and what self wants, for no man can serve 2 masters. We can't serve ourselves and Christ, too. (To live is Christ, to die is gain.) This I know for I have tried, striven, and struggled with this and praise God for troubling me that there is so much more than what I see. There's power of the Holy Spirit to heal, to raise the dead, to deaden us to this world and self, because He will show us the Christ who died for us and when we see Him (understand, as John did on Patmos, as Ezekiel, and Isaiah, and Daniel, and Job all had their own personal revelations of Him,) and they fell at His feet as dead men. He had to touch them, and strengthen them by His Spirit to raise them back up on their feet to even be able to hear what He had to say.

When we get this apocalyptic, personal understanding of who He is, then we will understand if we do anything or ever are anything for God it has to be Him in us doing the work for in ourselves there is nothing He can use to further His kingdom.

May I humbly request that you read "The Spirit of Christ" by Andrew Murray? I'm sure it will be a blessing. Also, "The Deeper Christian Life" by Andrew Murray. BH Clendennen did a wonderful series on the Holy Spirit in his School of Christ, and it is eye-opening, too.

I have not had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost yet, but this one thing I KNOW: He promised it, and if I seek Him for understanding of how to prepare the vessel and strength of God to empty the vessel of hindrances,-become willing to put Him first not self, He will gladly and eagerly fill me. Just because I have never seen this happen doesn't mean He isn't doing it elsewhere. I know He is, and it takes more of the Spirit to resist temptation and overcome the world, the flesh and the devil than you get at conversion. You can't overcome in this world without an ever increasing revelation and measure of His Spirit. I believe a new Christian who dies will go to heaven. But a new Christian can't survive in this world without the Holy Spirit if he has to live in it for long.

It's a growing process-the more of myself I give to God, the more of Himself He gives to me. When I'm willing to give everything (Lord make me willing to be willing) He will give me everything. Why did the early church have such a powerful move of the Spirit? With no microphones, computers, advertisements, or technology? Because self was put out of the way and God alone got the glory. They were willing to give all and so He gave them in like manner of His Spirit-without measure. It takes the power of the Holy Spirit working in you to help us understand we have been set free and sin and self is not to have dominion over us. Amen? Amen!!

[url=http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/727206/My%20Documents/Do%20Not%20Delete/clendennenschoolofchrist.zip]School of Christ-BH Clendennen[/url]

[url=http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/727206/My%20Documents/Do%20Not%20Delete/The%20Spirit%20of%20Christ.pdf]The Spirit of Christ-Andrew Murray[/url]

[url=http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/727206/My%20Documents/Do%20Not%20Delete/The%20Deeper%20Christian%20Life%20by%20Andrew%20Murray.pdf]The Deeper Christian Life-Andrew Murray[/url]

Although the Bible is certainly sufficient to let us know that there is a work of the Spirit of God for which He "will yet... be enquired of" ([u]Ezekiel 36:37[/u]),here are a couple of resources you may enjoy.

Holiness Classic Library http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/

Under each letter, you will find [i]How They Entered Canaan (Testimonies to Entire Sanctification)[/i], stories of how individuals experienced the filling of the Holy Ghost.

http://www.enterhisrest.org

Lots of interesting material.

Another sermon on this subject by Tozer:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62007205514

If anyone could transcript this message for me I'll translate it into my language and it will bless many other people.
I don't understand the message very well but I would love to be able to read all he says. Please PM me if someone would like to take some time and work on this.

No definite views on this but read the below from John MacArthur.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1859.htm

John Wesley taught that you were saved first and then later on there was a second work of grace subsequent to salvation. I think this might have been a holdover from the environment that he was in. John Wesley's biographers say that he died never having attained that second work.

learn wrote:
No definite views on this but read the below from John MacArthur.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1859.htm

John Wesley taught that you were saved first and then later on there was a second work of grace subsequent to salvation. I think this might have been a holdover from the environment that he was in. John Wesley's biographers say that he died never having attained that second work.

An article worth to be studied.
I was surprised to see Watchman Nee among the proponents of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Does anybody know which is the book where he speaks about it?

Go to William Seymor Under text sermons, there are fourteen news letters, from 1906 on, about the outpouring at the Asusu street mission.
they have blest me.

Love in CHRIST tom

The more I think through this and read the bible, the more I feel that we have already received the holy spirit when we were saved and there may be times for certain people and certain events (not all) that they may need another baptism of the holy spirit--maybe because they will face certain challenges, maybe its an event where those people that attend it will be asked to do certain things etc. However, not all the time and not everyone will need this baptism of the holy spirit. So to say that people need and should ask for a 2nd baptism of the holy spirit to give them power is incorrect. Its just like at certain times, God may chose to strengthen us, so we may feel the holy spirit more strongly and for some, so they say this is the 2nd baptism of the holy spirit. But if a person is always walking very close to God in obedience, he may not necessarily need a 2nd baptism of the holy spirit because he is already full of the holy spirit. David Wilkerson says if you ask for the baptism of the holy spirit you will get it--BUT John Wesley craved for it, and yet he never received it. And yet he was indeed powerful in his sermons and walk with God. John MacArthur is also another pastor that is full of power and yet he does not agree with the (2nd) baptism of the holy spirit. So to say that one needs the baptism of the holy spirit to get power or when we ask for it, is already contrary based on the above 2 examples. Also, are we then saying that John Wesley and John Macarthur missed out on the blessing of the baptism of the holy spirit. I'll hazard a guess that these 2 people have shown much more power and blessing than many of those here that have claimed they have received the 2nd baptism of the holy spirit.

Also, in scriptures:
2 Timothy 1:7, For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and self discipline. So, the holy spirit gives us power, love and self discipline--the holy spirit which we have when we believe--see Ephesians 1:13-14 "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." Furthermore, God does not give the Holy Spirit in half measure--see John 3:34 'For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.'

People like to point out the apostles received the baptism of the holy spirit much later after they were saved and also in John 20:22 where Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto the apostles as justifying the 2nd baptism of the holy spirit. But don't forget, Jesus was still there and had not risen when He breathed the Holy Spirit unto them. Only when He ascended, then the baptism of the holy spirit was given to the apostles (Luke 24:49, Acts 2). However, now Jesus already has ascended, so to say that everyone should receive a 2nd baptism of the holy spirit to give power is incorrect. There's a difference here.

Its just like tongues--some that have received tongues think that people should have it. From David Wilkerson's WorldChallenge on what we believe--"The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is given to believers who ask for it, with all the evidence manifested in the book of Acts (Acts 2:4)." Hmm--many people like William Booth, John Wesley, George Whitefield, Watchman Nee all didn't speak in tongues--so based on the above statement all of them didn't receive the baptism of the holy spirit???? And based on the statement by some people here in threads here that says 'if one does not have the baptism of the holy spirit, then one does not have power--then those people like William Booth, George Whitefield did not have power? And yet we know that they have lots of power and were used mightily by God. Also, didn't a brother here just said that Watchman Nee believed in the baptism of the holy spirit--and yet he did not speak in tongues according to Witness Lee.

It seems that when people receive certain things, there's always some who will say that one need to have this to prove he is saved or that he will have power etc. And yet the scriptures does not fully support it, neither does history. All I can see, is its trying to make those that do not have those things as 2nd class Christians. Maybe then those who have the better Holy Spirit gifts such as prophecies should start saying that one should have this to be saved or to have more power etc and thus create another 2nd class Christians who do not have these gifts. If one were to employ common sense, study scriptures and history, then one would be more careful before stating certain things as 'must have to be saved, have power etc. Also, one would be so much less likely to fall into wrong doctrines such as Word of faith (WOF), prosperity gospel etc. Even a good healthy dose of common sense with a little knowledge of scriptures would have kept people out of doctrines such as WOF, prosperity gospel, thinking certain preacher is without error, thinking God is cruel etc. Becoming Christians doesn't mean we lose our common sense, rather we should employ it with conjunction with scriptures and church history.

One thing is sure however and that is--the more obedient we are, the more the holy spirit will not be quenched and the more 'powerful in Christ' we are.

I'm learning too :-)
do you wonder why 99.99% of the Baptists say that there is no baptism with the Holy Spirit and 99.99% of the Pentecostals say that there is?
Because the majority of Christians believe what they hear in their small circle and not because they got any revelation from God.
Let us break off that circle and maybe we have a chance to see God's circle.

You said that not all may need another baptism with the Holy Spirit but ALL of us need power to be witnesses with our life first and our service. If there is such a 2nd blessing I'm sure that ALL Christians need it.

John Wesley craved for it but never received it say his biographers not John himself. And obviously John Macarthur has a baptist background. Also, I don't fully agree with Wilkerson even if I've slowly started to believe in this 2nd experience.
O Ye, I'm still learning!

vasilef wrote:
I'm learning too :-)
do you wonder why 99.99% of the Baptists say that there is no baptism with the Holy Spirit and 99.99% of the Pentecostals say that there is?
Because the majority of Christians believe what they hear in their small circle and not because they got any revelation from God.
Let us break off that circle and maybe we have a chance to see God's circle.

You said that not all may need another baptism with the Holy Spirit but ALL of us need power to be witnesses with our life first and our service. If there is such a 2nd blessing I'm sure that ALL Christians need it.

John Wesley craved for it but never received it say his biographers not John himself. And obviously John Macarthur has a baptist background. Also, I don't fully agree with Wilkerson even if I've slowly started to believe in this 2nd experience.
O Ye, I'm still learning!

Doesn't the bible says we are not given a spirit of fear but of power, love and sound mind. Now what is this spirit.Isn't it the holy spirit. When do we receive the holy spirit. We receive the holy spirit when we believe. So we already have the power. However, we do 'leak' and the best way to always be filled with the holy spirit is when we walk in obedience. If one walk in obedience with God, one tends to be filled with the Holy Spirit which will also give us power. So if for a certain situation if we think we need that slight extra boost of power--God may think it not necessary or it may not be that there's not much of a difference in boost of the power that the person may not realize its a baptism of the holy spirit or maybe it is more like God is strengthening us (in this case it really cannot be called a baptism of the holy spirit etc etc)

John Wesley wrote a lot of things and kept detailed stuff. So I don't think that his biographers got it that wrong.

Also, I will give an example of Corrie Ten Boom. Corrie Ten Boom was put into Ravensbruck prison and suffered greatly there and was a witness to Christ there. You know when she received the baptism of the holy spirit? When she was already out of the prison and just before her trip abroad to Germany (she travelled to many places before that sharing her message), she received it. There were a lot of demons there and she needed that extra something.

However, there are also many people suffering in China and other countries that will need this power that you said (quote from you :If there is such a 2nd blessing I'm sure that ALL Christians need it.). But you know what, instead they receive peace and comfort from God and not this power. For example, there's this story of Alexander (open doors--Brother Andrew's ministry)

When we need the baptism of the holy spirit will depend on the situation, our condition etc. To give an example. When we are feeling very down, some of us may have instances where God showed us His love by maybe getting somebody to say he loves us or through some other act. Now, we cannot extrapolate that to say then that everytime we are down or for everyone that is down, this will happen. Do we all need it (I guess most will say yes)--but does God do it everytime. Most likely no. But some people will do this type of extrapolation when it comes to speaking in tongues or having this baptism of the holy spirit. THey even go so far to say that if we don't have this baptism of the holy spirit, then we will walk defeated in this world. History does not say it (for example did Corrie Ten Boom walk in defeat for 50+, 60+ years before she received this baptism--nope). Neither does the bible say such things.

With regards to another of your query, yes people like to say the small voice is from God. Some of the time its true but I think many of the times its just our own thoughts or it could even be the devil. When we become Christians, I think and Watchman Nee also say this: we become more aware and susceptible to the devil attacks (could be in thoughts injected by the devil) as the spiritual realm is more accessible to us now. That's why its so important to check with scriptures. Also, its good to think common sense also--take a step back and think objectively--are we so caught up with something that we have lost our reasoning skills. Remember, common sense is something given by God too. Leonard Ravenhill will tell us to decide based on our conscience and not our feelings

Also, I don't think that anybody will get everything right when interpreting the Scripture (although they have the holy spirit). I don't think one is able to do that and I don't think that God will allow it as it will create an idol out of that person. (In fact a sister here did just that and had to learn her lesson from God). For example, I've seen John Piper and John MacArthur gave pretty much completely opposite interpretation of 1 verse in the bible. You know what the verse was on. John Piper used that verse to support that one will certainly know when one is saved. John MacArthur explained it oppositely ie that one need not necessarily know when one was saved. I actually agree with John MacArthur that one may not necessarily know when one is saved based on testimonies of Christian people (1 of which was MacArthur himself who doesn't know when he was saved). Also, I felt that MacArthur's explanation makes more sense than John Piper for that particular verse.

Now having said all this, I do respect all these pastors and believe they are true Christians--Wilkerson, MacArthur, Piper etc. But I do not idolize them and it doesn't mean that I need to agree with them all the time.

I'm not taking the small voice or the voice of others as a rule for my life unless it's based on the Word of God.

I just want to say that the verse that was like a light for me regarding the baptism or fullness of the Holy Spirit is from Acts 10.
I was really surprised to see that even our Lord Jesus Christ didn't start his ministry before being annointed with the Holy Spirit.
He is our Forerunner so I think we ALL must walk in His footsteps.

37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how [b] God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power [/b], and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

GBU

vasilef wrote:
I was really surprised to see that even our Lord Jesus Christ didn't start his ministry before being annointed with the Holy Spirit.
He is our Forerunner so I think we ALL must walk in His footsteps.

We receive the holy spirit when we believe. We do not receive the holy spirit sometime later. When we believe, we are in Christ. We are in Christ when we have the holy spirit. And when we are in Christ, we become a new creation. How can we become a new creation, if we do not have the holy spirit. And the holy spirit gives us power, love and a sound mind.

:-)

No man can be born again without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is indwelling every born again believer. The indwelling of the Spirit is for fruit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit coming upon the believer for service.

I have seen many believers that did not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were limited as far as their ministry is concerned.

When the Spirit comes upon us, we will receive power to be a witness for Christ.

We need both the indwelling Spirit and the Spirit to come upon us so that we will fulfill the ministry that the Lord has given to each one of us.

Mike

AbideinHim wrote:
I have seen many believers that did not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were limited as far as their ministry is concerned.

When the Spirit comes upon us, we will receive power to be a witness for Christ.

There may be some that need it but it doesn't necessarily mean its for all. If so, then guess John MacArthur, John Wesley and Corrie Ten Boom among others are limited in their witness and ministry then based on the above statements. Hmm...somehow I don't see that in their lives.

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:1-4 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Ac 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Ac 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 18:24-28 24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 19:1-7 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I have listed just a few scriptures from the bible on the importance of the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Jesus told the disciples that in a few days they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. He also told them that they would receive power after the Holy Ghost came upon them and they would be His witnesses.

Jude tells us that we are to earnestly contend for the faith. In Acts chapter 18 there is a Jew named Apollos who was mighty in the scriptures and also mightily convinced the Jews from scripture that Jesus is the Christ. This man also needed to know about the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Search the book of Acts and it is clear that Jesus wanted His witnesses to be immersed in the Holy Ghost to receive power from on high.

The regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in John that the world cannot receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The unregenerate can not receive the immersion of the Holy Spirit with power to do the works of Christ for a person must be born again first. Jesus will only send the Holy Spirit baptism of power upon a person who already is born of the Holy Spirit. The bible says that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin named Mary. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit with power from on High after he was baptized in the river Jordan by John. He did not start his ministry until He was full of the Holy Spirit. The disciples did not start their ministry from the Lord until they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is very evident that the church has drifted away from where it was in the beginning. I believe that the Lord Jesus wants His church to return to the original pattern.

I thank God for the many preachers that are striving to follow the scriptures to please God in everything. I thank God for the ministers that have done good works in the Lord knowing only a measure of the spirit, and maybe not a full baptism, but nevertheless they lead many people to the Lord. I thank God for all the souls that Billy Graham, John MacArthur, John Piper, and many others who have been faithful as they know how to be in leading them to the Lord and also ministering to them. But let's be clear, I don't appreciate anyone down playing the scriptures for our day in any form. It does not matter how many John MacArthur's try to explain away the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as they experienced in the book of Acts, they are not the criteria, the scriptures are, and they will tremble in the presence of a Holy God one day soon. Oh yes, let me make it clear when anybody trifles with the Holy Scriptures and speaks against something that is clearly written they will give an account to God. Moses is a good example from scripture about how the Lord wants to be sanctified in the midst of His people and look at the price it cost Moses for his disobedience. I fear God and we better fear Him, it does not matter how much we think we know if we have not experienced what the disciples did let's just say we have not experienced it. Just because John MacArthur and others have not been baptized with the evidence like they experienced in the book of Acts and like others who have, it does not give them the right to be God's spokesman today and say something different.

I have personally experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and I have experienced the Power of God but I am very sorry that I have not walked in it fully like I believe I should. I will be honest and say I have not experienced it in the measure that the Apostles have and I don't know if I ever will but I know that it is real and we need to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Many preachers of our day believe that it is ok to be satisfied with less of the Holy Spirit operating in the lives of believers than in the 1st century of the church, but to many who are hungry to surrender all to God with a deep desire to return to the former powerful glory days of the church, they had rather die and be removed from the face of the earth than to be in a weak pitiful church bringing so little honor to the most powerful name of Jesus Christ. We must not get complacent. We must not be satisfied with wisdom and no power. We must give our all to God and be filled with the Holy Ghost in mighty powerful signs and wonders to bring honor to our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not so that we can be powerful but so that He can work His power in us and through us to reach the end time harvest and witness that our wonderful savior is so deserving of. He deserves much more glory and honor than He is receiving in the believing world of our day.

The cheap, easy believism gospel, and wisdom of our day with so little power in truly transformed holy living and witnessing is the sure sign of the absence of the Holy Spirit and God cannot be pleased with those who think that it is acceptable. God save us from preachers who have nothing but wisdom and no power. God save us from preachers who want go on to a deeper experience with God and yet will try and keep others from it also. Lord give us preachers filled with the Holy Spirit whose faith is in the power of God who will help others have their faith in the power of God. We don't need anymore preachers that all they know how to do is talk about God but what we need are those who demonstrate in the power and authority of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you so much for sharing all of these wonderful scriptures on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why wouldn't we want to receive the precious gift of the Holy Spirit so that God would use us to build up the Body of Christ through the gifts of the Spirit?

If Jesus did not begin His public ministry until after the Holy Spirit came upon Him, then what makes us think that we can minister to others without the power of the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

While we are initially filled with the Holy Spirit, this infilling is to be continuous. Jesus is the One that gives us the water of life daily, and we can come to Him again and again and be refreshed and renewed. As Jesus has said that "Out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Mike

Guess I will repeat what I wrote earlier. But maybe its no point--people will just believe what they want to despite history and scripture not fully supporting their beliefs. In these type of instances, it's best to leave them alone and pull out of the discussion as its just a total waste of time not to do so. I've said my fill and pointed out the reasons and supporting facts for this in all my earlier posts. I'll end by repeating one of my previous post.

learn wrote:

AbideinHim wrote:
I have seen many believers that did not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were limited as far as their ministry is concerned.

When the Spirit comes upon us, we will receive power to be a witness for Christ.

There may be some that need it but it doesn't necessarily mean its for all. If so, then guess John MacArthur, John Wesley and Corrie Ten Boom among others are limited in their witness and ministry then based on the above statements. Hmm...somehow I don't see that in their lives.

Learn wrote:

"Guess I will repeat what I wrote earlier. But maybe its no point--people will just believe what they want to despite history and scripture not fully supporting their beliefs."

Did you read all of the scriptures that R Banks quoted in his post?

I am not going to try to convince you of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, because if you do not believe the words of Jesus and the clear teahings of the scriptures then you will certainly not believe me. I could give you the testimony of countless saints of God that give testimony of receiving the Baptism of the Spirit that were greatly used of God, but you would not believe them either.

Mike

AbideinHim wrote:
Learn wrote:

"Guess I will repeat what I wrote earlier. But maybe its no point--people will just believe what they want to despite history and scripture not fully supporting their beliefs."

Did you read all of the scriptures that R Banks quoted in his post?

I am not going to try to convince you of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, because if you do not believe the words of Jesus and the clear teahings of the scriptures then you will certainly not believe me. I could give you the testimony of countless saints of God that give testimony of receiving the Baptism of the Spirit that were greatly used of God, but you would not believe them either.

Mike

DId you not read what I wrote. I've even given the names of some of those people that did not receive this baptism or so much later and yet they were mightily used by the Lord. And it is presumptious for you to say that I do not believe the words of Jesus or the scriptures. Just because I do not agree with you, doesn't mean you are right or that I do not believe the words of Jesus. Guess people like John MacArthur also do not believe the words of Jesus either then. We can agree to disagree but to say that people like myself or John MacArthur do not believe Jesus's words or the scriptures just because this is how you and some others chose to interpret it is plain wrong and uncalled for.

And BTW, all those people that man the Gotquestions.org website (a popular and useful Christian website) are all walking in defeat too and do not have power and do not believe in Jesus's words and scriptures since they do not believe as you do on the baptism of the holy spirit. Sheesh!!!

learn wrote:

vasilef wrote:
I was really surprised to see that even our Lord Jesus Christ didn't start his ministry before being annointed with the Holy Spirit.
He is our Forerunner so I think we ALL must walk in His footsteps.

We receive the holy spirit when we believe. We do not receive the holy spirit sometime later. When we believe, we are in Christ. We are in Christ when we have the holy spirit. And when we are in Christ, we become a new creation. How can we become a new creation, if we do not have the holy spirit. And the holy spirit gives us power, love and a sound mind.

:-)

I agree with you but I see there must be something more, therefore I quoted those verses to underline something.
Jesus was Almighty God but even He needed the annointing or baptism with the Holy Spirit to begin His ministry.

I don't know many things about John M. and Corrie T.B. but I definitively believe that John Wesley was filled with the Holy Spirit whatever his biographers said. It’s only that the early methodists had a teaching called "entire sanctification" so maybe they equaled this with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Learn wrote:

"There may be some that need it but it doesn't necessarily mean its for all. If so, then guess John MacArthur, John Wesley and Corrie Ten Boom among others are limited in their witness and ministry then based on the above statements. Hmm...somehow I don't see that in their lives."

Both Corrie Ten Boom and John Wesley both believed in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. John Wesley called this infilling a "second work of grace", and he had a powerful experience with the Holy Spirit at a Methodist meeting where George Whitefield and his brother Charles were in attendance. After this deeper experience that Wesely had been seeking, there was a greater anointing on His preaching than ever before.

Corie Ten Boom said that the infilling of the Holy Spirit was absolutely essential for a Christian to face persecution. "We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it."

Many of the saints of old did not use the term "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but they believed the Words of Jesus: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8) They not only believed the words of Jesus but they received the wonderful gift of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Mike

Abideinhim, you did not understand/ represent them correctly. You cannot just dig out some words or read a few articles etc from them without really reading up or studying on them to know what they mean and how they live their lives etc. I have no wish to continue this discussion with you as I see it is fruitless and I do not wish to waste my time on fruitless endeavours. Furthermore, I will soon not be around for quite some time. You want to discuss/convince, you will have to do it with yourself or some other people based on my reasons above.

And there are others besides these two that do not believe the way you do either but do mighty works for God with power and do not walk in defeat. How are you going to explain for all of these people based on your understanding. You can't. And neither can you say that you know better about these people than they themselves with regards to whether they have/have not this baptism of the holy spirit or that their understanding is wrong etc etc.

"Difference Between Indwelling Spirit and Outpoured Spirit" - Watchman Nee

"The Holy Spirit indwelling man is for life, whereas the Holy Spirit upon man is for power. Unless we can distinguish these two aspects of work, we will not be able to understand the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testaments. The promise in the New Testament of the indwelling Holy Spirit is made by Christ before His death. This promised aspect of the Spirit's work is related to the death of the Lord and is fulfilled at the time of His resurrection. This work of the Holy Spirit within man is for the believer's life, for his daily living that he may bear those fruits of the Spirit such as holiness, righteousness, patience, joy, and so forth.

The promise of the Holy Spirit coming upon man is made by the Father in the Old Testament time and is reaffirmed by the Lord at His ascension. This aspect of the Holy Spirit is related to the ascension of the Lord and has its fulfillment at His ascension and exaltation. The Holy Spirit falls upon believers to clothe them with the Lord's power in being witnesses and in manifesting the gifts of the Spirit, thus having power to work for God and accomplish His will.

As we read the Old and New Testaments we must distinguish clearly between the Holy Spirit's work within men and upon men. Then shall we see that there is no contradiction in the many references to the work of the Holy Spirit. Other wise, we will be puzzled by many seeming contradictions. According to God's word, each and every regenerated person must have the Holy Spirit indwelling him so that he may also receive the Holy Spirit's outpouring. The one is "must"; the other is "may". Without any doubt, as soon as a person believes in the Lord, the Holy Spirit "must" dwell in him. On the other hand, he "may" also receive outpouring of the Holy Spirit. By simple differentiating these two words you are able to see the wonder of it all.

Let me illustrate this. One day the Samaritans believed in the Lord and were baptized. The Bible does not say that they received both the indwelling and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 records that these people had believed in the Lord and were baptized, but "as yet" the Holy Spirit "was fallen upon none of them" (vs.16). So when the apostles in Jerusalem heard about it, they sent Peter and John to lay hands on the Samaritan believers so that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Now if a person is ignorant of the distinction between the indwelling and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, he will find it difficult to explain this incident of of the Samaritans who had believed and were baptized and yet had not received the Holy Spirit. Moreover, he will not know how to interpret certain passages in "Romans 8, 1John 4 and 1 "Corinthians 6 in relation to this event. For all these passages indicate that as soon as one believes in the Lord that person has the Holy Spirit indwelling him. The fact of the matter is that the Samaritans did not lack the indwelling Spirit, they only lacked the outpoured Spirit."

From "The Communion of the Holy Spirit" by Watchman Nee.

Hi everyone,

Just got back and did not realize I was still logged on. I read over the recent posts and would like to make a comment to Learn.

I think I see the point you are trying to make concerning the experience of others. John Wesley ministered in the light he had received from God in his day. He was persecuted by many in the church at that time because many in the church rejected the truth he discovered. He went on and preached anyway out of obedience to the truth He received from God. He preached in tents outside the established church. Many came to hear him preach and were blessed with a greater experience from God.

The truth is no one can minister except from the ability that God gives. We can not walk in a greater light than we have received. The truth of the matter only God really knows and is the final authority concerning all men and the light revealed to them. God is the one who knows when a person has not received the light or whether they are rejecting or refusing to walk in the light.

What I was saying in my post is that the scriptures are the criteria and not peoples experience. This is also what John MacArthur and probably yourself would agree also. I don't agree that because someone has experienced a gift from God makes him more superior than another, this would be contrary to the spirit of Christ. But now let us also acknowledge that if we have not received the Holy Spirit like they received it in the bible then lets not claim that what we have is the same experience. John MacArthur has been used by God to a certain extent and has blessed a lot of people but let me say this respectfully, I don't know the man and he has done nothing for me that I am aware of.

The writings of the apostles in the bible has done more to show me Jesus and the power of God. I have read some of the writings of John MacArthur and have decided to look past him to the other side of Jordan. The problem with so many is they can't get past their favorite preachers because they idolize all that they have accomplished. We have too many satisfied preachers that are so hung up and have got many of you so hung up on all their(isms)doctrines. Look, are they doing the works of the apostles and why are their writings more important than the scriptures. When did they become the criteria. I thank God for every preacher preaching the truth and every christian living the truth they have received but don't stop at the schools of the preachers but go on for a double portion. Let's go on for a deeper experience with God. Look at the experience of that early church in the bible and pray to the living God and say to Him that you want it like they had it, what ever the cost. He is worthy!

Rbanks, there's no way I can fully explain everything I mean nor am I'm interested to do so. Plus, I'm running short of time now. One of the reasons why I pretty much all the time do not explain everything or get into further discussions on many occasions is because it also depends on the other person's ability to fully grasp certain things and his experience, time justification--is it worth the time spent etc etc etc. To discuss further would just not be fruitful and its not important for me to get the last word in. That's why like for this topic and some others, I usually say what I want to say and at times get dragged on to discuss a bit further with some others but will usually put a halt by withdrawing myself from the discussion. And I should really be withdrawing--I've been saying this for the last couple of posts already.

I do agree with scriptures being the criteria and am not one to get caught up with idolizing certain preachers. In fact, I mentioned this in my earlier post. Also, 1 of my favourite preacher is Paul Washer but even before I found that I disagree with him on some things and at my height on when I really liked his preaching, I was already saying that its likely he will not get everything right. Also, I don't believe that John MacArthur has everything right either. Neither do myself.

There are times the bible does not fully explain certain things/give a definite view or will explain it in such a way that one will need to also use common sense to understand. Experience of real Christians that are outside the bible will also be important especially then. However, there are some that will then misinterpret/misunderstand what the bible is saying or read more into the bible than what it actually states.

Examples:
1a) 1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1b) But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Now, some people may then say that women should not braid their hair or never ever buy an expensive clothes. Some people may then say that if a woman does not give birth, then she may not be saved

Huh! What 1a) basically is trying to say is what is the right attitude of a woman. Yes, it literally says the woman should not braid the hair or buy expensive clothes--but is that what the bible is really trying to imply. If one buy an expensive clothes only 1 -2 times throughout her whole life and braid their hair (which is normal for Indians), is that contradictory to the bible. No

Also, history will tell of women such as Amy Carmichael and Corrie Ten Boom that never married and gave birth and yet they were used by God. Now does that mean, they may not not be saved--after all 1b) says that a woman will be saved through childbearing. No--common sense and history will tell us that they are saved even though literally it seems contradictory to what the verse in the bible says

2) Tongues
Some people believe that one needs tongues to be saved or/and when one receive the holy spirit.

Now--there are verses in the bible that says people receive tongues when they are saved, but there are also verses that are silent (do not say they receive tongues). Furthermore, history teaches us that real Christians like William Booth, George Whitefield etc did not receive tongues.

Yet, despite the fact that the bible does not fully support their viewpoints that tongues is needed to be saved (see my earlier paragraph) and history after the bible showing that (eg: William Booth etc), they will point to verses in the bible such as when the apostles gathered in the upper room, Cornelius etc to say that tongues are needed

3) Whether one can lose/reject their salvation

There are verses that support both camps (ie can lose/reject their salvation and OSAS--once saved always saved).

Now, some people might point to Saul where the holy spirit left him to say that one can lose one's salvation--after all, if one does not have the holy spirit, one does not belong to Christ (as the bible tells us).

But--one thing we must realize. There is a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In Saul's time, Jesus has not died and risen again. So while Saul losing his holy spirit can be a point in favour of those believing that one can lose one's salvation, we must also not forget that the new covenant has not been put into place yet at Saul's time--and this rightfully should be in a person's mind when he uses Saul as an example of one that can lose one's salvation.

4) Whether one know the exact moment when one was saved

Some people for example John Piper will say that one certainly know when one is saved as it is a distinct occurence. Now, if we were to read the bible, we will hear words such as then 'they believed', 'the holy spirit came down' etc etc. Reading the bible literally like this (without doing a bit more thinking), one may just agree that one will know when one is saved.

But, but there are real Christians after the bible that will tell you they don't know exactly when they were saved. Now, I am of the personal view that one may not know when one is saved after reading their stories. I personally know when I was saved but I cannot and should not rely on my experience alone or to read more into what the bible says that one will certainly know the exact moment when one was saved.

Learn, it is unfortunate that many have been led into legalism concerning the scriptures and have damaged many in the body of Christ. There are things I don't fully understand but by the grace of God I trust Him to lead me in the way of His truth. We must not stubbornly side with our own belief just because we don't want to get out of our comfort zone. Our experience must always be tested by the experience found in the word of God.

We must take into consideration the time the scriptures were written and who they were writing to at the time. The word of God should never be taken out of context. The Holy Spirit inspired the written scriptures. We are to have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

I would like to offer some insight on a few scriptures you mention. The one about being saved in child bearing seems to imply that because some of the women back then died in child bearing that the christian women who continued in a holy relationship with God were given a promise that they would be saved from death while bearing children.

The scripture on outward appearance was so that the women of God would dress modestly as women who profess godliness. They were not to strive for outward worldly beauty but inward godly beauty. I believe that the apostles were mainly concerned with extravagance in dress and not a litmus test about everything you could and could not do but be devoted in your heart to God and to their husbands.

The scripture on tongues is that it is a gift to the saved after the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They who say that we must speak in tongues to be saved are in grave error and heresy.

We are saved by the blood being applied to wash us from sin and by the Holy Spirit regenerating our dead spirit to be alive unto God. Everyone born of God must have the Spirit of Christ.

In order for one to be baptized(immersed)in the Holy Spirit he must have been born of the Holy Spirit first. I believe there are people who have been immersed in the Holy Spirit to some degree that have received power for ministry that have not spoken in tongues or are not aware of it.

I heard the story of Moody, Wesley, Nee, and others tell of a definite experience of power that change their ministry but they never stated they spoke in tongues. I also read where Torrey said we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit for power in service. I never read where he spoke in tongues either. I have been blessed by these ministries. They have clearly stated about the need of the baptism. I know of other preachers like B.H. Clendennon, myself, and others who have had a definite experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues just like they did in the book of Acts.

I am not to discredit the experience that God does in any one's life or ministry. If a person has spoken in tongues or has not spoken in tongues is between them and God. I believe the bible must be preached in the entirety of the new covenant that God has richly blessed us with. I love the word of God and the truth being preached. I strive to live and preached the whole counsel of the word of God. I believe in returning to the original pattern, the foundation laid by the apostles by the grace of God. Thanks for reading my post.

[b]Parenthetical Christians[/b]

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples: and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?" (Acts 19:1-2).

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/002034.html

This is somewhat related also to the post of 'jerry austin1' on 'baptism and rapture'; https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25684&forum=36&43

Well, is it really preposterous to say that:

1. the 'pentecost' happens after regeneration. When were the apostles regenerated, before, on, or after the pentecost.

2. that every true Christians needs the 'pentecost', to glorify Christ in the way the Lord wills it to be.

I don't think the problem is the baptism of the holy spirit, it is if you have been truly saved or not. That is what really is the problem i think. Have you repented of your sins and trusted Jesus Christ and whole heartidly surrendered to him.Maybe that is something someone should ask brother paul washer about. I believe he had a time when God became even closer to him, when he went out to the mountains and cried out to God and God came and he was empowered from that experience, but i have a friend named robert and i would have to say he lives the most holiest lifestyle i have ever seen, this man does not go to church because he said he didn't recognize the spirit in them. This man is all day long about the Lord, you just know his profession is true compared to others. But he doesn't speak in tongues and said he was saved when he had to actually see jesus on the cross and he realized what christ did for him and he repented of all of his sins one by one. He was then oppressed for the next 6 months where he had a hard time to even pray, but he told me he was saved the whole time during that and then the lord empowered him, and this manis singing songs of praises all day long not in pride but as if someone has changed him. He is the kindest person and he has a love for Gods word so much. But anyways being empowered is all in the hands of God. I think you become saved and then you can later become empowered but you our saved by repentance and your trust in Jesus which in actuality is the Lord giving you saving faith, is not of yourself.

Earlier I said in this thread that John Piper said that we will know the exact moment when we're saved. Well, recently I came across the article that John Piper wrote on that and I believe he was talking about something else. Just wanted to clear this up.

I don't think the problem is the baptism of the holy spirit, it is if you have been truly saved or not. That is what really is the problem i think. Have you repented of your sins and trusted Jesus Christ and whole heartidly surrendered to him.

I believe you do not intend to think of speaking lightly of Him the Holy spirit,
agreeing with you on the indispensability of repentance and faith in our Lord.

And the Lord is so good that anyone who repents and trusts in Him will not be left orphans in this world, alone in our troubles, as he had promised:

Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

The meaning of the pentecost is beyond the humans to totally explain for who can really explain the wonders of our God. Him the Holy spirit and His ways cannot be limited, no, not even by the book of Acts, not even by those 'how to' or 'formulas' that we can write or speak of.

He is beyond 'the tongues, 'the power', 'the fire', 'the dove', 'the wonderful experience'.

And He the fountain of life is willing to fill this wretched vessel of ours in an intoxicating fullness to take care of that 'child of God' which is very precious in His sight.

He is Our Rest, our bread, our water, our Comforter, our Teacher, our holiness, our Christ, our Lord, our God.

T. AUSTIN SPARKS(The Abiding Meaning of pentecost) http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/001559.html
had said it this way:

"Acts is pre-eminently a book of principles; and it is just here we so often go wrong in looking for the repetition of the form by which those principles were expressed; forms of expression change, but the principles abide.

Though the Lord may do a fresh thing, He will not necessarily use the same form, but He will do it on the same principles; these principles are eternal, changeless; they abide for ever.

We are so often wanting a repetition of Pentecost in the form it took then, of manifestations and demonstrations on the outside. The Lord will do a new thing; and things basic to His activity then will be basic to His activity always. Principles, and not forms, are the things for which we are to look" (end of quote).

Preeminent among that principles is our purity, to present us holy and blameless, in the likeness of our Lord and savior, bearing the fruit of the Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Hudson Taylor, Asa Mahan, John Morgan, Charles Finney, David Wilkerson, and the others had found it that way, and what a meaningful and fruitful lives they have.