What fire has the younger generation acquired

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came to all the people and said, How long are you limping over two opinions? If Jehovah is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word.

This is a comment written by a lady to a post that I had written...........

"There was a time when you could go into a church and feel the presence of God. You would tiptoe in and cry at the alter and tiptoe out. You would talk about church all day and at bedtime. You would talk to your neighbors about the Lord. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Does your church have God's presence there? When we witness to neighbors about the Lord, do we tell them about our church, do we tell them about the programs we offer? Do we tell them about our softball team or about our free cup or our free espresso from our Coffee Bar? Or, do we say , just come and I guarantee you that you will meet God. Come to Him and He will reveal Himself to you if you will humble yourself. I see it happen everyweek so please come. I got saved in my 20s and was a professing sinner, then I really got saved about 6 years ago, now I am in my mid 40s. I hear about the old days from all the grey headed ladies in church. I am hungry for God's manifest presence and I need to know what to do about it. I pray, I confess, I do not live in any known sin, yet I stumble at times and the Holy Spirit convicts me and I immediately repent. I go to prayer meetings at church. I read my Bible, I talk about Jesus at work and try to get them to come to my, or any church. What are we doing wrong, or me? Is my church under judgement? Or our nation? Is there churches out there experiencing God where the Spirit is moving and people are confessing and their lives are being changed? They are living for Christ and dying to self and carrying their cross? Jesus, please show yourself."

That was a very sad letter to me. I recognize much of what she is saying. In the last several years I have visited several churches, in different parts of the country. I have also visited churches that used to be the way she described, drenched in the presence of God. I was in Destin Florida just last week and visited a Pentecostal church. The young man and his group that were doing worship were visiting, friends of the Pastor. This young man is quite well known in the "Christian music industry." He "performed," for almost an hour. In that time there must have been over 50 different instructions given to the congregation. "Stand up," "Dance," "Raise your hands," "Cmon, give the Lord a hand clap," "Just be free," over and over again. I thought about that lady as I was being entertained from a very talented young man in his early thirties, the same age as the Pastor. As I sat there, this thought dropped into my spirit "This is the results of the acquire the fire generation." As it turned out, when they were finished, the Pastor thanked them profusely for their "Spirit filled worship,' and thanked God that He had just moved mightily amongst us. He also acknowledged his friendship with the artist and thanked him, that even although he was now a "big name," that he would still deem to come to his little church. He told us how his friendship with this man went back to their youth camp days.

We are living in the days when these young men and woman who grew up with acquire the fire and pumped up Christian youth camps are now assuming leadership roles throughout the American church. The Spirit that the lady above is looking for, has been replaced by music that is designed to "pump people up." Indeed the entertainer told us that he moved in freedom, and that we too should move in freedom. Now , what was freedom to this young man? He twirled when he danced, "just let yourself go and be free." Is this the freedom of the Gospels? Is this the measuring rod by which we measure a Christian's freedom? For a whole generation, sadly it is.

As many know, our bodies are multifaceted. By that I mean we are made up of body , spirit and soul. If we are living in a soulish generation, how did that come to pass? What is a soulish generation? The body has five senses. We can see, we can hear, we can touch, we can taste and we can smell. These are very powerful factors in our lives. One could argue that much of human misery and sin flow out of these senses. All of adultery starts with seeing. Consider David on his balcony as he see Bethsheba. Consider pornography, where the eyes feed directly into the soul. Greed and materialism, desiring what our neighbor has, all starts with seeing. Obviously touch would play into all of the sexual sins that plague us as people. Hearing also has been used to great advantage by the enemy. Where would false teachers and religions be without peoples ability to hear the lies? Gossip and backbiting all begin by listening. Taste and smell contribute to gluttony and lead to our present situation when a large percentage of the country is overweight.

Of course all of the senses can be used to enjoy all the wonderful benefits of what God has given us as free will agents, human beings. We can see the glory of a sunset. We can lift up our eyes unto the hills and see where our help comes from. We can lift up our eyes and know that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord. We can look at our husbands and wives, our children and our family and garner great joy from just that. The list is endless of what we can enjoy simply by seeing. Hearing, where would we be without the hearing of the Gospel? To hear your child laugh, to hear a bird singing, to hear the crash of the waves or a waterfall. Oh the joy of hearing the worship of the gathered saints. The simple pleasure of holding your loved ones hands, holding your baby in your arms, a kiss, a warm embrace from your husband or wife, the gentle touch of your lover(your husband or your wife) To taste and smell the wonderful food that we have. Oh how a smell is so powerful in evoking memories from long ago. The simple and wholesome pleasures of all the senses are a delight and the list of these delights is endless, for we worship a creator God.

Suddenly my senses are being assaulted by this young Pastor. He started of loud and only got louder. He was a white man, but he preached like a black man. I had seen the style many times before, it had meter and there was breathing and also after any good point (and there was quite a few good points) there was a blast from the "organ." Before he had stopped preaching, my head was pounding. So much noise. The young preacher was exhausted and sweating profusely. He put everything he had into his performance. This was not a lazy young man. He gave a report of how many backpacks they had handed out in the last week to area children who could not otherwise afford supplies. Surely a great work. He talked about upcoming events and they had a full calendar. This is all good stuff and is highly commendable. Can manufactured passion have an impact on today's society. How is it that with all of this activity, the unchurched people in America remained unchurched? Charitable works go on, perhaps more than ever. The music in the church is more professional and "better sounding," that it has ever probably been in the history of the church. And yet, almost zero impact on the unchurched, those without a church background.

Imagine a cross section through your body, a plan view, looking down. Across the chest is the five senses, arched in front. Directly behind the five senses is the soul, and behind the soul is the spirit. The soul naturally looks out to the five senses. The senses excite the soul and the soul empowers the senses. Depending on your level of dysfunction(we are all dysfunctional) will determine the level of activity. For instance, a person in emotional pain, will compensate by overeating, the soul will anesthetize its pain by energizing the eyes, the taste and the smell when it comes to food. That is why this is a problem for one person and not for another. Perhaps the soul will anesthetize itself by sex. It will over stimulate the eye's and the touch. These are tow examples amongst countless millions. We all grow up in unique circumstances and the uniqueness of the sins that so easily beset us are without number. No one can tell, with any accuracy, how a person will turn out. Now there are basic principals. If you beat a child constantly as he grows up, then no one will be surprised by a violent result. We are all different obviously and five children can all grow up in the exact same house with the exact same circumstances but all turn out completely differently. The x factor being our unique personalities. If someone, for instance, is more sensitive than another, then the circumstances will impact that person more violently that it would for say his brother or sister.

So, how does this play into what is going on in the church today and the dilemma of the younger generation raised on acquire the fire and pump it up messages. This generation dwell almost entirely in the realm of the soul. Silence would terrify them. They have been raised to think that a heightened awareness of their senses is "the presence of God." What a tragedy, not just for them, but for the unchurched world. If you were a unchurched person, you would get the same heightened feeling at any rock concert, and of course, most times the world does this better. Their concerts are their church. Just go to one, one time and you will see these people "worshipping," corporately.

And so, the eye of the soul must be turned inwards. The younger generation, the vast majority of which know nothing of the "presence of God," need to turn inwards and find God within, not without. We all know that God dwells on the throne of our hearts. He has taken up residence in the very center of us. That is where they will have to look if they hope to discover the true presence of God. The presence of God is always totally fulfilling, there is nothing beyond the presence of God. Have you heard the much used phrase in the church now"There must be more.?" There is nothing more than the presence of God. That is why God does not have to entertain us to draw us to Him. The churches will find that they will have to become more and more like the world to draw people and keep people. And even then it will fail. There is no such pressure in the presence of God. There is no more than Him. People who have turned the eye of their soul inward know that and know that if they want to come here then they have to humble themselves and die to themselves, that is the path, that is the journey. People who do not know that and whose eye of their soul is turned outward, towards their five senses, will never be satisfied. They will always need more. How sad to hear that phrase spiritualized now. There is no satisfaction in the flesh, it will be pleasurable for a season, but the flesh demands satisfaction and complete mastery over the soul. The passions of the flesh will ultimately destroy. The passion of the Spirit will cause us to die to ourselves and become more like Jesus.

1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they dressed, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any who answered. And they leaped on the altar which was made.

Choose you this day young people, will you serve your flesh or will you serve the Living God? One can jump up and down all day long but it will not bring down fire from heaven.

Thank you brother for a most thoughtful and relevant post. they must be universal questions at this hour, and i will give you my take.

Jesus said that the "Harvest" is [b]The end of the age.[/b]. The harvest is both a work, and a time. I personally believe that we have entered the end time harvest. the work of the harvest, is not what many people associate with when they consider it. It is not solely a time for Salvation..it is that , but much more. the harvest is a time of [b]division[/b]. It is a time when the light shines bright as "deep darkness" covers the entire Earth. Isaiah 60.

Deep darkness, the glory arising, or resurrecting upon the Lord's people. wheat in the light...tares in the dark. Division. separation. "do not think that I have come to bring Peace, no but DIVISION......to divide. This is difficult for some to wrap their faith around,,,but it is true.

I believe we are deeper into the harvest than many would think, and there is an element of DEATH in this word. "A seed must fall into the ground, AND DIE....before it bears much fruit." This is also unthinkable for most Christians today, and was once for me. I saw my walk with God as an ever increasing glory path arising to greater and more anointed levels, until for sure I would carry them into right into Heaven. I was wrong.

God designed the seed, all seeds, to die; to be sewn in the Earth before they could bring about their fruit. It is true in the Spiritual realm. Jesus , of course, spoke of himself, when he made this statement as the FIRSTFRUIT. ...the cross...the most terrible of deaths. He also referred to the principle that must be inherit and acted upon on all who follow Him. They too, must go in, and come out of death, to live.

This is more than Heaven. It is now, also. It is the only path to maturity. 2 cor: chp. 1.....Paul speaks of the sentence of death poured out upon him...and the bewilderment, and suffering he went through in Asia. It was not physical. It was this...this mandate, this spiritual reality for all of his children. A seed must die; before......

On another level, one that most do not consider, this sentence is poured out on Churches, and one day, even on the "big Church." I believe that this day has come,,,,the Harvest is upon us. We have seen an ever increasing antichrist[ in place of Christ] anointing pushed into the church. It is worldwide. It is clergy-laity..[an abomination unto God, and the gears that drive the religious spirit.]but so much more. It is the church herself that has exalted herself over her Husband,,,the Bride standing over the Bridegroom, to dominate him.

Happiness, my health, and my prosperity are my rights, and I will assert my right. It is ME above all, and God desires this for me. It is a bloodless, and cross free church, and one void of any mercies, or one where a brother would, or could lay his life down for the least of his brothers,,,the littlest and more insignificant one. It also is a christless church, or [b]HAS THE LEAVEN OF IT'S AMBITIOUS PRIDE WITHIN HER.[/b]

I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WORLD WIDE, AND THE LORD HIMSELF HAS PUT FORTH A DECREE. "This holy seed must also be planted unto death, that my love would arise in her."

Hosea Cpt2...vs: 2-24. "I will sow her for Myself!". This is a "Harvest chapter."

There are millions of Brothers and Sisters that are experiencing the throws of death..and the true church is being formed..and she will be "without spot or blemish." this is only possible by resurrection. Only the dead are resurrected. God is calling His people to come out of her...more like a command, to his chosen and Elect. The departure is very bewildering. He looks for a heart that cries; "Even though He slay me, yet will I WORSHIP Him."

But dividing He is. He slays every son he receives, and the New church cannot have any of the stains of the old...nor will she. To accomplish this, He has withdrew from some for a season. "My god, My God, WHY have you forsaken me!" He cried. So must we. It is harvest time, and if the Bride is not separated, she shall have her bundle with the tares. It is Love and mercy.

I was just reading this article by Hugh Binning:

"..And now all is rents, rags, and distractions, because self-love hath usurped the throne. The unity of the world of mankind is dissolved; one is distracted from another, following his own private inclinations and inordinate affection, which is the poison of enmity, and seed of all discord. If the love of God and of one another had kept the throne, there had been a coordination and co-working of all men in all their actions, for God's glory and the common good of man. But now self-love having enthroned itself, every man is for himself, and strives, by all means, to make a concurrence of all things to his own interest and designs. The first principles of love would have made all men's actions and courses flow into one ocean of divine glory and mutual edification; so that there could not have been any disturbance or jarring amongst them, all flowing into one common end. But self-love hath turned all the channels backward towards itself; and this is its wretched aim and endeavour, in which it wearies itself, and discomposes the world, to wind and turn in every thing, and to make, in the end, a general affluence of the streams into its own bosom. This is the seed of all division and confusion which is among men, while every man makes himself the centre, it cannot choose but all the lines and draughts of men's courses must thwart and cross each other...."

http://www.covenanter.org/HBinning/binninglove.html

Robert....I think your church is very fortunate to have you there. God bless you brother, I do not envy your position.

Brothertom ......I agree with what you are saying, my spirit certainly witnesses to the truth of your statements. Death to self in the midst of an indulgent generation is hard going, yet its the way of the cross. I agree that the seperation has begun, the virgins are being seperated and when the call comes to light the lamps, there will be a lot of darkness on the earth............Frank

Robert writes ....

"Shallow conversions lead to shallow services. A service is only as deep as the spiritual experience of the attendees and no deeper. Can a person worship in Spirit and truth if they do not walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16) and walk in Truth? (III John 1:4) "

Is a shallow conversion any conversion at all? This is one of the dangers that Brother Tozer warned about many years ago, he could see it coming. C.S.Lewis could also see it coming. I am not sure there is a solution on the horizon, I believe Brothertom may have it right when he talks about the beginning of harvest and the seperation of the wheat and the tares. I wrote a piece a while back entitled "Woe to the Pastors for the church is dead." And "The coming Tribulation." It may add to what Brothertom was talking about and what Robert is touhing on.

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/the-tribulation-is-at-the-door/

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/05/04/woe-unto-the-pastors-for-the-church-is-dead/

A new gospel for a new generation.

Firstly I want to say that this thread is terrific, mature, and insightful with much depth and contribution from all, and relevant.It is an issue that needs to be addressed, with out instituting legalism as the catch all for reform, for our youth , or against ourselves.

I believe that we have been sold a bill of goods, and received something, that we did not bargain for , concerning our youth. It has deep roots, but essentially, it is the idea that the World will see a "Great End time revival", that will sweep in a billion or so youth. It is also coupled with the idea that the "youth are our future", and and the idea of "youth ministers", creating a special class within the body of "up and comers", along with various venues such as "Youth Camp", "Youth Missions", youth night, and so on. It is not Biblical, and has created a disconnect overall in the Church.

Even Sunday school is up in the air for me. Isaiah talks of the Church coming together for communion.."therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and they shall flow together for the goodness of the Lord. "For wheat and for wine, [b]"The young and the old", the weak and the strong..[/b].

The body is the entire body, that is commanded and expected to care one for another. It has always been so, for the born again. We created this disconnect, as part of our theology the our youth needed special attention to meet their needs, and to make them feel more compatible in their view that the gospel was not as boring as it seemed, sitting bored to death as a six year old , twiddling with your dollies or a coloring book, all dressed up like a princess, and then the boy's scenario similar.

This idea has continued for many, many years. It has been somewhat divisive, I believe in family structure, within the Church, which the Lord has made a paramount issue,,,as you consider the Call of Abraham. "I know you will teach your offspring my ways"...IE; The Godly Seed Word, which is bound within the APEX of the motivation of Faith itself. Abraham succeeded, it seemed. It was not a disconnect. In many societies today, and even in American cultural Christianity, such as the Anabaptists they strive not to disconnect.[with some exceptions]

In the stricter sects of Judaism today, there is a vibrant jealousy to maintain relationship with the child, to direct and shepherd, to maintain the bloodline and hope of faith. The Kibbutz, and various communities around Israel, are a joy to behold.[ not necessarily spiritual in Christ] as the young and old are expected to honor and love one another, in the bounds of family, and extended family...and friends.

In the Jesus movement, we were all young. It was almost as though only the youth culture got saved, and as I look back, I wonder WHY?...It is something that the Lord just did. We were ilitists, to some degree..[I speak only of my experience with my peers] We were however, almost all Babtized in the Holy spirit, and vastly committed, at least in comparison to today. We prayed together at every meal, carried our Bibles everywhere we went, and it was uncommon to not see someone saved daily.

Could it be though, that the disconnect occurred, and was derived from a sense of failure and guilt?. Because we accepted, as we grew older, the unspiritual nature, and comparitive deadness of our unspirit filled churches, we deferred our children in hope? We then, pawned our Children off to the "program"..the camp, the special nights, and then, where we are today. the conferences, that have to do something to create excitement. The music became cultural, as it always does, and the conviction of the Spirit, is replaced with a more easy and more fun, relaxed venue.

Enter the emerging church, where everyone is accepted. "Come as you are!" is the cry, replacing "come to the Cross!. Salvation itself is covered with the comfort food of motivational teachings that motivate you to be a better person, and of course, a more satisfied one. This then becomes the theology of the new Gospel. It is a church committed to the edifying of itself, far, far away from the tenants of repentence and faith based on self denial, and learning how to love. It's not about that..The gospel is about me.

[timed , will continue next.] Tom

I believe that it is not an overstatement to declare that the "Emerging Church" is , and has been established on youth culture. It has become what we called [b]HIP[/b] in the 70s. We had Christian "Coffee Houses", which was quite revolutionary 40 years ago. We used these venues to witness Jesus, and as a fishing hole, for those who may come to Christ. We had good music..rock christian hymns that related. We had good coffee.We made people FEEL accepted and loved. We drew the line at the close of the cafe. The new gospel has refused to do so. They confront with new ideas about church. They have made our coffeehouse their substance for Christian ministry.

Come as you are. We will love you. You are accepted here. you will grow , and desire God, as you experience God's love. It is not unusual to see unsaved people, living in open immorality, attend for years, in one congregation, without ever being confronted with repentence, and Faith towards God. It then stands to reason, that the Gospel Should Not be preached. because it would offend the seekers, which in reality, may be over 50% of the attending Church.

There then is implied, or directed that there should not be any difference between those who have believed, covered by the blood of Jesus, and those who now may be on the "Journey" to believe. It is no longer a Church, in the Classic sense of the Apostle Paul's fellowships, but a mish mash of some gospel and a lot of feel goodism and motivational teaching; how to better your marriage, how to manage and increase your finances, and how to grow your church.

It's roots go way back, but you can start counting in our culture when the charismatic church began to explode via the TV set. It then began to flow world wide. One of the great American exports. It is very, very sad. [I sat in China with a group of young people, who were not saved, but thought they were, having been evangelized by an American English teacher, who promoted this idea to the hilt. They asked me what percentage of Americans were saved....80%...."no" 70%..."no" 50% ...."no". They were shocked, because they equated the Gospel with the American lifestyle of easy believism. Jesus was cool, and a happier faith than any. We are a prosperous club. This is the idea of the emerging church, and at that point, Jesus is only the Grand facilitator to make me and my friends more successful and contented. This then becomes TRUE CHRISTIANITY. I answered my Chinese friends. They anticipated, with gleaming faces..[after all, they had found the treasure.] 1%, maybe 2%, are real CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA! They were sure I misspoke, and were deflated when I explained. Many of them then really knew, that indeed they were lost. I preached Christ and him crucified.

This is worldwide. It has invaded Africa, and India, the Philippines..., the entire Earth....and the reaction of the youth is similar, I believe. It is a non-gospel message, and it is capsulized in the title of a famous book..."Your best life now".

Without fathers, if there were one billion people saved in these last days, how many of them would you say would survive? With the forces out there, promoting these self serving and experiential gospels as the true, and deception increasing everyday...not many, probably. We have witnessed a generation deceived, in good times , right at our kitchen table.

Without holy mothers and fathers, that has the courage to trumpet that the Blood of Jesus believed and received, and a cross lived is the only way to Glory, the church itself won't survive..[if that were possible]. The youth movement in all of it's forms today, has been moved away from these ancient foundations. "WHERE ARE THE FATHERS!"

I think it was indicative of how the recent Lakeland "outpouring" was received. It was at least 80% youth, in my estimation; watching it on the NET. It didn't matter about doctrine...people were getting healed, and the excitement level was outstanding, and the "high" was good. The music was tops, and my, there 's a lot of babes here! Let us return....Oh, and we might just see an Angel! "How cool is that?"

You see, TB was the quintessential youth, and cool dude! Tattoo, piercings, skeletal images of death on his BLACK T-shirt...and the tattoo. DANK DUDE! He capitalized on the new Gospel energized by the defining force...Youth, and the me gospel of easy believism and a pleasure centered better, happier , more fulfilled me! "Isn't that what the gospel is about?

"Shepherd my flock! Feed my Sheep. Feed my Lambs!" The lambs are the young sheep. they would be called the "YOUTH!"

Hi Robert and Brothertom

Great replies. I believe that another factor to the current situation is the notion of a "nominal Christian." I think it was Bill Brights "Campus Crusade for Christ," that really started to push this notion. An explanation had to brought about to explain why so many could "accept," Jesus but have no meaningful change in their lives. There is no Scriptural basis for "Nominal," Christians. There are "weaker ," brothers for sure, but no Scriptural basis for the person that we would now describe as "nominal.".........Frank

Hi Adam.....great to hear from you. As you may or may not know, I am from Scotland, my town is called Greenock. I go back and forward fairly frequently between there and my now home in Kansas. I also have a cousin who lives in Wales. So I have first hand experience of what is going on, not only among the youth, but adults too. Its sad for me to think that many of my Scottish brothers and sisters look to the American church for their inspiration. Seems like the mistakes made here, filter back to many of the Pentecostal denominations back home. Lakeland would be a good example.

Can I say, for a young man of 20, you give me hope. May the Lord bless you in wisdom and influence in your local area and Body. Death to self , picking up our cross's daily, embracing the life that the Lord leads us into, whether that will be blessings and sufferings(they are really both the same and you will experience both)is the way of Christ. Follow Him to Calvary and beyond.

Did you know that SI are having their revival conference in my home town of Greenock? Perhaps you could make it there? Hopefully there are people of a similiar mindset to yours in your area? My prayers are with you Adam............Frank

Hi Wayne and Christian, two excellent replies, great addition to this thread. Oh that we would have a church full of these kind of believers!.............Frank

I agree Delta... here is a reply to my post from my own site from a great brother in Christ..........

Good evening. The comment from the lady is heartbreaking in that we rarely find such environments today. Instead what you witnessed in Florida is the norm these days. One thing that I’ve pondered about the current generation; both professing christians and those who make no such claim. There seems to be a need for continuous stimulation; be it comedy, music, pseudo news, (”pseudo, because the real news, few could handle) and continuous fabricated storylines. Folks have cell phones and are in contact with others constantly. Being still and allowing the Holy Spirit speak to us would almost seem to be a thing of the past, although we know that it’s not.

There’s so much commotion, noise, voices, and nonsense filling the ambience that few know what it’s like to literally be in awe of the living God who sits upon the circle of the earth. As for the church, we think we can (oh no, I shouldn’t really go here; it caused trouble on an early post) make a schedule and place God into that schedule. “OK it’s worship time, Lord meet with us. OK now it’s offering time, and now, time for a soft message. Suddenly it’s over and we’re out. Fascinating; the Lord is always finished at the same time each week. Where are we going for dinner?”

I don’t mean to sound mean, but when I look up into the heavens at night and the stars seem to stretch into eternity, it’s so telling of a wonderful Creator who inhabits all of eternity that the superfiscial stuff just doesn’t have anything to contribute. An hour in the presence of Jesus; our Savior and Lord who stepped out of eternity to redeem us with his blood, is far greater than a thousand lifetimes. An awesome God who has no beginning and no ending; yet gave his only begotten Son so that we could be with him throughout the ages to come.

Well I was actually planning to finish reading the previous post, but this caught my attention; especially the comment from the dear sister who knows what the authentic presence of the Lord is like and hungers for that which is real. Thanks for another post that highlights the lateness of the hour. Have a blessed evening in Jesus.

This was my reply to that brother.........

Hey brother Timbob…….you did not seem mean at all, perhaps passionate for the presence and majesty of God, but not mean. I just left my church of eight years and that was part of the reason, our church is a lot like the one in Florida, only our Pastor was a good preacher. Yet, just so much noise, I totally agree. There is such a need amongst “worship leaders,” (whatever that means nowadays) to be trendy and different and always new. I wrote a post a few months ago called “Faith is in the silence.” Seems like this generation, young and old, are terrified of silence. The next time I get a chance to share anything from any pulpit(who knows when that would be) I can see myself just standing there and saying nothing. Then, after about 30 seconds, the people start to get restless, then after 2 minutes there would be extreme discomfort. People have been raised with constant stimulation. It goes along side an indulgent people who have to be continually gratified, at least at the five senses level, which is where I think the problem lies. A good brother that I respect, suggested that the end time harvest has begun, the seperation of the wheat from the tares, right under our noses. If I could find a Pentecostal , Spirit filled, sold out to the Word , not afraid of silence, waiting on God, crying at the alter at our condition church, that is where I would be. Right now I will settle for Biblically sound. God bless you brother, I belive that we both have passion for His glory and His majesty and the vastness of who He is………….Frank

Dear Kathleen.......My heart bleeds every time I hear a brother or sister express what you have expressed. There are more of us than you think :)
You have rightly summed up much of the situation. Can I just say, you sound like a woman Baptized in the Holy Spirit to me. God speaks to you, and you hear the Spirit speak to you. He teaches you in the silence of your Spirit. You know that you continually need to be filled and you know the difference between life in the Spirit and death in the flesh(going through the motions at church) Can I suggest that you read some things the Lord has given me, I believe that they will bless you. You will find in these posts a kindred spirit and know that there are so many of us who long to see the beauty of Holiness in our church's. Yet, I think that it is becoming more apparent to me as I speak to others, that this may be the new reformation. This may be the seperating of the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares. This may be the very oil the Lord speaks of when He references the ten virgins in regard to the end of the ages...................Frank

Two more great posts. Kathleen and Christian have made excellent contributions to this thread. My heart is warmed by the knowledge of good brothers and siters out there who have a thirst and desire for the majesty of God and the centrality of Calvary. It is this desire to see God worshipped in reverence and majesty and in the beauty of His Holiness and to see death to self which may give birth to the new reformation the church so desperately needs.......Frank

You said it brother, may we all recall our first love. All who are following this thread, please see the "New Reformation," thread, I think the two have merged, praise God.

Mike writes......

"This has got to be one of the most..penetrating posts that has ever graced us here."

That word, penetrating, I sat up and took notice of that. A couple of months ago I wrote a peice called "Stabbed in the Heart."

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/?s=stabbed+in+the+heart

The post was about the true nature of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 2:37. It says about the crowd who Peter had just shared the Gospel with " And hearing this, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and to the other apostles, Men, brothers, what shall we do? " This phrase, "stabbed in the heart," is from the greek word "Katanusso," which means to violently penetrate or agitate the heart.

We are living in a day when we need a generation of people who have this gift, the gift of being able to "katanusso," as they speak to the unsaved. As God draws His people out and away from that which passes for church, away from shallow religion, pseudo fellowship, and worship that is merely noise, and draws them to Himself, I believe we will start to see people move in this power. We may not hear something different(the Word of God never changes) but it will be shared with the power to violently agitate, to penetrate, the hard hearts of the listeners, until they cry out "what must we do to be saved," or perhaps that common phrase in the Lewis revival "Is there mercy for me." Praise God, there was mercy for all who cried out to God.

On the flip side brothers and sisters, when one moves with this kind of power from the Holy Spirit, there is also the opposite reaction. That powerful word that violently pnetrates the hard hearted, also can create a violent reaction from those who resist the Lord. The disciples found that out, as did countless of thousands of saints down through the ages. So the question is, "are we willing to move in this kind of power?" Most of know that the greek word for witness is also equated with the word "martyr." There is a cost to be paid for this kind of walk. Praise God, judging by this thread and reactions from brothers and sisters from all around the country and from different countries, God is raising up ans seperating a group of people who are no longer satisfied to just play church. This is a group of people who are hungry and thirsty for the things of God.

When the sacrifice is placed on the alter, when the false religionists fail in their attemps to move God's hand(aquire the fire generation, much noise and activity) it is then that the fire of God falls and consumes the sacrifice.

And it happened at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel, and that I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your Word.
1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O Jehovah, hear me, that this people may know that You are Jehovah God, and that You have turned their heart back again.
1Ki 18:38 And the fire of Jehovah fell and burned up the burnt sacrifice and the wood, and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw, they fell on their faces. And they said, Jehovah, He is the God! Jehovah, He is the God!

You see what is happening? Elijah in the midst of an unfriendly crowd, unashamedly decalring the truth of God, just exactly the same as Peter was doing after Pentecost. They both had the same result, the fire of God fell and the people fell on their faces, acknowleging the true and the living God who is a consuming fire.

In the heart of the man and woman of God there burns a fire, a passion, a thirst, for the things of God. He or she cannot remain unmoved in the midst of a perverse generation. So all those who long for the presence of God, who hunger and thirst are being called out and the Lord is preparing them to walk in the same Spirit as Elijah, as Peter, and yes as dear brother Stephen. I praise God for the Spirit that is striing amongst His people..........Frank

I am no expert on Amish life, to say the least. I do know that the Amish have a practice of relinquishing their children over to the youth group, to decide for themselves whether or not to become a member of the "Amish", Church. The children who are turned over to these groups, are allowed to sow their wild oats, so to speak, in all manner of anarchy and rebellion, with no determined consequences from their church, or parents. Sexual immorality is rampant, as is drug use, loads of alcohol and any form of worldliness.

This wildness usually lasts a few years, and then the children must decide to become a standing member of their Amish church,and adhere to the rules and disciplines of it, or to stay out, and be an outsider. It is very strange and foreign to all other forms of institutional protestism. Many children have committed suicide after this experience, and deep psychological scars are inflicted from this practice. To me, it is almost akin to turning your children over to the devil, to see if they will survive.

Gellassenheit is simply an ancient Anabaptist expression meaning total submission, implying an absolute devotion to the consuming fires of God, in every orb of life. Probably, most of the Amish churches are simply cultural, and devoid of the Holy Spirit. They are highly legalistic, and if you do not line up, you will be excommunicated before you can say, "GELLASSENHEIT!" they are very high on Church leadership, and dress codes. Women are very , very oppressed, and commanded submission and silence. They make good pies, and are good mothers. It seems they get a lot of practice at that. It is not uncommon to see a family of 14....not a typo...14 is common.

I'm sure there is an Amish or Mennonite brother here on the forum, who could fill in the blanks. Please forgive my feeble attempt to assess the youth in this culture, but I hit on the obvious points that an outsider would see. I have heard the testimonies of many Amish youth who became saved, and boy, do they take off! They have everything else in place..and when Jesus comes...they fly.

However, the Amish church as it is does a very poor job of nurturing their youth, or directing them to serve Jesus in Holy fire.

HI Guys....good points from brothertom. Yet, I think the point of the thread is "New," Reformation. Not that I do not think the Amish way of life is an interesting topic:) This particular thread has been a good outlet for people who long to see the Lord worshipped in reverence and awe, and to worship in the genuine presence of THE Lord. So, if your a lurker out there, please feel free to participate and share your thoughts with all of us.........Frank

Hi Abideinhim.....I would say that there is great hope for anyone who cries out to God, with fasting and repentance. As always, the changed life is the "outward appearnace," and God only ever looks to the heart, young or old.....Frank

HI RobertW , you asked ..........

"What was it about Elijah that God answered him by FIRE?"

We know very little of Elijah. We know nothing about his lineage, only where he came from. It seems he was somewhat rough and passionate man. Elijah prayes that it may not rain because of the iniquities of the Land. He challenges Ahab, yet this fruitful land would dry up because the leadership would pay him no heed. And so it was, the rain stopped and the fruitfull land became barre. This barenness eventually led to the people choosing between false prophets and the man of God.

This land, the land of Christianity in the West , lies in such a barren state. And so it will remain until the people "chose ye this day whom ye will serve." Will the people continue to worship the Idols of Baal? Will they worship themselves and their own prosperity. One thing is for sure, as long as they do, the barreness will continue. It will not be until God's people, who are called by His name, will cry out to Him, and turn from their wicked ways with tears and repentance, that God will hear from heaven and heal their land. The land in this case is the Church. The remnent will gather together and be refreshed, even in the midst of famine and drought, may the many find their way to the alter of God.............Frank

It seems clear that God can take a man of no background, of no acclaim, and use him mightily. Elijah was such a man........

Hi Compton...thanks for the suggestion of Jonathan Edwards. He has been a great influence on me, also George Whitfield, the Wesley brothers and Finney's own relfelction on "religious affections." Perhaps one of the problems that we face today is that we do not have men of their stature, men willing to lose it all. I think of the fact that Jonathan Edwards faced so much rejection from the religious community at large(Church) he ended up preaching to the the Native Americans for a while(not an honorable thing in those days:( And Whitfield was banned from the pulpits of so many churches for daring to suggest in a letter that most of the Clergy knew nothing of the "new birth." Now thats bold. Just as well that he was banned from the pulpits though, for no church oh his day could have held the crowds that showed up to hear the Gospel preached with that same power that manifested itself after Pentecost(Katanusso, stabbed in the heart).....Frank

Danielle....thank you so much for sharing that. This to me has been one of the most important replies to this thread. This, in part, is where the answer lies. There is so much noise. There is a whole industry of worship that has developed, phrases like contemporary worship and so on. To me, it is akin to the Scripture "Hamstring the horses and burn the chariots with fire." Oh that men would burn their keyboards and hamstring their guitars and drums. Of course there is a place for instruments in church, I think of Psalm 150 and I too want to , with all of my breath, praise the Lord on the cymbals and every other instrument that comes to hand, this is the way I want to enter His gates and His courts But when I want to enter into the Holy of Holies, when I come into the very throne room of God, then all falls silent before our High and Mighty God who is above all things. In everything there is season, a time to praise, a time to dance, a time to shout the victories of our Lord and King, yet, there is also a time, a season, to fall silent in the presence of majesty, to be speechless in the very throne room of God and be overtaken by grace and be changed in the deepest parts of who we are. This is the season in which we live brothers and sisters, we no longer have the luxury and indulgance of simply dwelling in the courts, it is the season to come in. Words will fail in His presence, unless it is these "Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God almighty...........Frank

Hi Mike, you write.............

"To these young people, they were worshipping God with all of thier hearts."

I think it was you that said in an earlier post that the Lord only looks upon the heart, not the outward appearence. What we do know, for a fact, is that one is always changed in the genuine presence of God. When I wrote the initial post, I never said, and I still do not believe, that when the younger generation(whatever that means) dance or make noise that they were not genuine. Being genuine is not the point, you can be genuinely wrong. I guess the issue is the difference between soulish worship(which take place in the outer courts) and Spirit filled worship, which takes place in the Holy of Holy's. In this place, a man or woman comes away, changed. That is the common factor whether in this age or in any other. So, we must look for the change. Here is one of the latest movements in "worship," which involves dance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-RZLNaJ1c

It is known as "Ekstasis Worship." Its based on dance, altered states through repetitive rhythms. Kinda starts with twirling. It is ushered in usually by quoting the King David story. It actually ends up very much like a rave, only minus the ecstasy tablets.
Twirling and dancing is equated with "freedom." I saw a little bit of this at an Assembly of God church when I was in Florida a few weeks ago. Its the higher ends of the soulish state. It actually has its roots in paganism. Beware,coming to a church near you . The need for discernment has never been so great.........Frank

HI Mike, you write.........

"We worship God for who He is and not because it makes us feel good."

Amen brother. The vital difference between soulish worship and the genuine presence of God worship is, one involves sacrifice, the other involves indulgence. It all goes back to Cain and Able. Both came before the Lord with their offerings, one was acceptable, the other was not. You see, you can enter into the outer courts and remain there. In order to come into the intimate place with God one has to humble himself and enter through the low, broad door. The examples from the OT, the symbolic truth would be the brazen alter. You do not come to this alter "to get something." You come to this alter to sacrifice your sin. The Lord wants us to stand before Him in transparency. So we must humble ourselves and acknowledge our sins, lay them on the alter to be burned. Then we must go and wash in the lavar bowl. This bowl was made from the looking glasses of the ladies as the children of Israel left Egypt. Then we can stand , illuminated by the candlesticks, fed by the showwbread and finally our prayers towards God become incence that ascends to the very throne room of God. This could take place in every church thoughout the land, every Sunday. Jesus has made the way, we only have to follow Him.

What you see in the video I posted is the essence of indulgence. There is no sacrifice there. Yet, before we get self-righteous, we must ask oursleves, are we involved in sacrificial worship? Are we willing to become transparent? Do we understand, as Abel understood? Or do we have the mindset of Cain?..............Frank

HI Mike ...Excellent passage from Watchman Nee.......Brother Compton writes....

"In our scrutiny of this issue, let's not become simply anti-pleasure."

I smiled at this comment :-) Yet, in the seperation of the flesh and the Spirit that is what we have to discern. Anyone who has experienced the presence of the Lord would know that there is fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore. I do think that many equate "fun," and "joy," when in actual fact they are totally different. So to compare one to the other may not be accurate, kinda like a straw man.

We have often heard the phrase "To be so spiritually minded as to be no earthly good." Maybe I am travelling in the wrong circles
:-) Thas't just not a problem that I have run into lately :-) Seriously though, we are living in unique times. This is not just an issue of personal choice in music, and to cast it in that light , I think, may cause a diservice to the seriousness of the situation. This is an end times issue that goes to the heart of the Church. This is a paradigm shift. We have a whole generation, and by that I mean, teens, 20s and 30s who have never experienced the corporate presence of God. And so, when things come along, like Lakeland for instance, they are fodder for these false movements. The video clip that I included in my last post should definately be checked out. This is the next wave, and it is one of the highlights of the invasion of the church by New Age thoughts and methods...............Frank

This article when I read it really spoke to me about why we must not be too quick to judge others. I posted this on another thread but I don't know if everyone got a chance to read it:

"Leaping Like Calves From the Stall": An Analogy for Today

by David Johnson

Leaping Like Calves From the Stall

The prophecy given through Malachi is essentially a conversation between God and Israel, as God points out Israel's wrong attitudes and invites them to repent and turn to Him and receive His blessings.

In the final chapter of this short book, Malachi is shown what lies ahead for those who will repent and what will become of those who don't. In Malachi 4:2, God makes this promise: "But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall" (New Revised Standard Version).

What does that tell you? What does a calf leaping from a stall have to do with your future? Undoubtedly, there are several lessons that could be gleaned from this analogy, and an experience from this writer's past can shed light on one of them.

It was that period between late winter and early spring in the Midwest, and we were keeping an eye on a Hereford cow that was due to drop her first calf any day. At this time of year, it can be warm and pleasant during the day, yet turn very cold during the night. We were concerned that she might give birth during the night when we couldn't watch her, and the calf would freeze before we discovered it in the morning. We brought her into the barn and put her in a stall where she would be protected from the elements.

When the veterinarian arrived to check on her, he discovered that the calf was in a breech position, and we would need to help her deliver it. After much effort, the new calf dropped to the floor of the stall, and the cow did instinctively what every cow has always done—she began to lick him to clean him up and get the blood circulating. After just a few minutes, the little fellow got up on shaky legs and wobbled instinctively to the same place every newborn calf has always gone—to get his first meal.

Mother and calf were doing fine, but because of the cold weather, we decided to leave them in the stall for a few more days.

Now, for those who are not familiar with farm animals, please don't be misled by the fact that cows are listed among the "clean" animals. That refers only to the fact that God permits us to eat the meat. It says nothing about the cow's habits of personal hygiene. Cows have no qualms about relieving themselves and then standing or lying down in the mess for days at a time. As the days passed, this stall became quite an unpleasant mess, but the cow and her calf didn't seem to notice.

Leaving the Stall

Finally the day came when it was warm enough to let the cow and calf out of the stall and put them back in the pasture. When the stall was opened, the cow ambled out of the stall and then out the barn door into the pasture, where she immediately began to feast on the fresh green grass.

But the calf didn't know what to do. The stall had been his whole world, and he was terrified at the prospects of having to leave it. Even after we put a halter on him, he planted all four feet and fought with all his might to keep from being pulled from the stall. It took two grown men to finally drag him out of the stall and into the pasture. When the rope was removed, he dashed immediately to his mother and stood underneath her, looking wide-eyed and frightened at all the strange things in the pasture.

As the moments passed and nothing bad happened to him, he grew more and more curious about all the new sights and sounds and smells of the pasture. He ventured a short distance from his mother and sniffed some of the grass and then dashed back under her for safety again. After a few more moments he ventured a bit further away, dashing back to safety each time.

Within a half hour, he was dashing and leaping from one end of the pasture to the other with an excitement and joy that is hard to describe. This new world was wonderful! It was filled with all sorts of interesting plants and animals—tastes and smells he had never imagined while living in his stall. For the first time in his short life, he was living instead of merely existing, and never again would he want the stench and dullness of the barn.

Why had he been so reluctant to leave his stall? Compared to the wonderful world outside, his stall was ugly and unpleasant. But to him, his stinking, fetid, waste-filled stall was "normal." It was his only idea of how life could be lived. It was all he had ever known, and as far as he knew, this is the way every calf lived.

To someone standing on the outside, someone who could see a different reality, the stall was a wretched place to be. But to that calf, it was "home," and he was comfortable there.

The power of what seems "normal" to a person is amazing. People who have grown up in abusive homes tend to view abuse as normal, and the cycle is repeated generation after generation. People who break free of abusive relationships often go into other abusive relationships because it seems "normal."

For most of us the examples may not be quite as extreme, but many of the things we do in our lives, our relationships, our actions, are the result of a negative, dysfunctional way of living that still seems "normal" to us.

In 1 Peter 1:18, Peter refers to the fact that "you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers" (New International Version). Most people don't consciously choose empty, worthless ways of living. They just live that way because it feels normal. Until people get a clear view of the way things should be—the way they can be—they will continue to feel most comfortable with this distorted view of "normal."

Hi Brother Compton....I know that brother, that is why I put in as many smiley faces as I could :-) Its not your discernment that worries me brother, its the greater church. I think you may have put your finger on what I was trying to say, it is all about the context. If one believes that the church is just going along as normal (whatever that would be :) then put in that context, then the struggles of bygone generations, and the tension between younger and older people would be simply just that.

I do not believe that is the case though, and I could be wrong. I believe that we are near the Lord's return and that Satan knows that too and he is going all out to destroy that which makes Christians strong and leave them in a weakened condition, ripe for the tribulation. God bless you brother Compton, the internet is a marvelous tool for communication, but as brother ROBERTW and I discussed when we met for lunch the other day, it can also makes our words and our intentions sharper than they are........Frank

Hi brother Compton, you have a heart that is full of love, it is always good to err on the side of Love and always thinking the best of others. I think that is what makes it so difficult to be used in writing posts that are critical of the state of the church. For some, it is a fire in their bones, for others it is a mere reflection of a critical spirit.

I know what kind of posts I would like to write all the time, yet when the Lord speaks, there is no peace until one is obedient. It would have been good to have had lunch with you brother, good fellowship with like-minded brothers is a relatively rare thing, for me at least. Its pretty cool to meet someone you have never met before, but be immediately comfortable because they are "family." Jesus binds us together...........Frank

Hi Rivqah.....I loved that story, it fits perfectly with the thread......Thanks ...Frank

Passerby writes

"Is the End Days marked with a great worlwide revival or it will be a pervasive apostasy that eludes even the church eyes."

It is clear that the end of days will be marked by a "great falling away." What passerby says directly ties into what Robertw was talking about. It is the rise of the "lawless," one. This spirit of lawlessness is not only already at work within the "Church," it is pervasive. What is Lawlessness? If one goes to a country where the government has broken down, where there is a state of anarchy, then that would be lawlessness. Each man and woman doing what seemed right to them. We are living in the generation of lawlessness and it is not confined to the "younger generation." They have taken it to new levels, but they learned it from their parents. Jesus is their "saviour," but He is not their Lord.

So 10,000 can gather and make noise, but Robertw is exactly right. If 120 can rock the world, without the help of amplifiers, then what should 10,000 be able to do if they moved in the same power that moved the 120? At the risk of repeating myself, I believe the vital missing ingredient form the younger genertaion(teens, 20s and 30s) is Lordship and knowledge of the Word. The vital missing ingredient from actual saints(for there are far more than 120 in the world today) is the "Katanusso," power that Peter spoke of after Pentecost. This word, meaning to "stab in the heart," or to "violently agitate," or to "penetrate," is such a powerful word. Part of the problem is that good solid men of Christ, steeped in the Word of God, men vital to the health of the Christian community, have shied away from this or deny it altogether, either word or by ommision. And on the other side, Pentecostal folk, who believe in this are busy chasing miracles, while ignoring the greates miracle of all, the miracle of the new heart. Evans Roberts new of "Katanusso," power and we saw the Welsh Revival. D.L Moody knew of this same power. This story has been quoted many times on SI but it bears repeating. When men of God hunger after this, perhaps we can save some from this soulish generation..........

D. L. Moody, while speaking at Northfield, related the following experience: "This blessing came upon me suddenly - like a flash of lightning. For months I had been hungering and thirsting for power in service. I had come to that point that I think I would have died if I had not got it. I remember I was walking in the streets of New York. I had more heart in the business I was about than if I had not belonged to this world at all. Right there on the street the power of God seemed to come upon me. I was filled with a sense of God's goodness and felt as though I could take the whole world to my heart. I took the old sermon that I had preached before without any power; it was the same old truth, but there was a new power. Many were impressed and converted.

This happened years after I was converted myself. It was in the fall of 1871. I had been very anxious to have a large Sunday school and a large congregation, but there were few conversions. I remember I used to take pride in having the largest congregation in Chicago on a Sunday night. Two godly women used to come and hear me. One of them came to me one night after I had preached very satisfactorily as I thought. I fancied she was going to congratulate me on my success, but she said, we are praying for you. I wondered if I had made some blunder that they talked that way.

Next Sunday night they were there again, evidently in prayer while I was preaching. One of them said, we are still praying for you. I could not understand it, and said: Praying for me! Why don't you pray for the people? I am all right. Ah, they said, you are not all right. You have not got power; there is something lacking, but God can qualify you. I did not like it at first, but I got to thinking it over, and after a little time I began to feel a desire to have what they were praying for. They continued to pray for me, and the result was that at the end of three months God sent this blessing on me.

I would not for the whole world go back to where I was before 1871. Since then I have never lost the assurance that I am walking in communion with God, and I have a joy in his service that sustains me and makes it easy work. I believe I was an older man then than I am now; and I have been growing ever since. I used to be very tired when preaching three times a week; now I can preach the gospel five times a day and never get tired at all. I have done three times the work I did before, and it gets better and better every year. It is so easy to do a thing when love prompts you. It would be better, it seems to me, to go and break stones than to take to preaching in a professional spirit. A man can accomplish more in one year with this power than he can do in forty years without it. Jonathan Edwards said he was able to do more in Northampton in one week than he did in seven years before the Spirit of God came upon him for service."

This is the secret; the filling of the Holy Spirit. The outstanding men, men who have stirred the world for God, testify to it.