all will be healed?

Dear ones,

Some people around me believe everybody will get healed if we believe and pray. How do we interpreted this from scripture? In the gospels I see nobody didn't get healed, only people who stayed sick sometimes because of the unbelief in the area etc.
What's a good way to look at healing? Does everybody get healed? And even if some get not healed...is that something that has to do with us as people (unbelief? sin? etc.) or what's God will in all of this? Is it Gods will to heal?
A lot of questions but I hope you guys can help me. I'm investigating this also because there is sickness in my wife's family. And some people start to listen to preachers like andrew wommack etc. and they believe him about that everybody should get healed etc. But I want the biblical basis for healing.

Anyone?

Healing is a sovereign matter of God's will
and mercy. We must be mindful of the depths
and greatness of God's mercies. Sometimes
He will afflict us when it is necessary for
discipline. We must first suffer with Him;
if we would share in His glory!! In all that
God does; He does with intent and with purpose.
If we seek His heart and His will; we will
find purpose even in trials and sufferings!!

And some people start to listen to preachers like andrew wommack etc. and they believe him about that everybody should get healed etc. But I want the biblical basis for healing.

Of course, the healing here - when taken in context - is the healing from sin, from the root of the disease that contaminates all children born in Adam. Many times, preachers relegate healing in the atonement to the mere physical aspect of it, and promptly charge God to heal the afflicted with tangible results, irrespective of the will of God in the matter - after all, it is in the atonement and the unalienable right of all believers. They [i]obligate[/i] God to legally heal upon demand. This is the result of an improper understanding of the New Covenant and a failure to read the Bible carefully.

Now, while I believe that God does heal in the physical under the New Covenant, I do not believe it is by virtue of atonement legality. We see that God healed physically in the OT - He even healed pagans like Naaman who didn't fall under the atonement required by the law given to Moses. You must then wonder if physical healing can even fall under covenental obligation.

If a person today is healed in the physical, it is one thing, but if God heals a person in the spiritual, i.e. nails the fatal disease of "Sin" to the cross - we must attribute this to Christ's atonement. This and this alone is the healing promised under the New Covenant. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the aberrations mentioned in the NT where physical healing clearly did not take place even among God's elite in the faith.

God did not heal Paul of the thorn in his flesh, though Paul could have pled the atonement and required it of God - but Paul had a proper understanding of what exactly he had [i]already been healed from[/i]. Timothy was not instructed by Paul to lay hold of healing for his stomach by virtue of the stripes of Christ, and we also know that Paul left a dear sick missionary brother named Trophimus behind at Miletus.

It must be sovereignly accepted that God is not required to physically and legally heal all who get sick (even those ingrafted into Christ), and when taken in context you can see that the Word of God does not guarantee physical healing in cookie-cutter fashion as part of the grace under the New Covenant. The healing that is guaranteed is the healing of the disease of [b]sin,[/b] which the Blood from Jesus' stripes [i]has already taken down to judgment and eradicated[/i] for those who by faith continue to look to Him.

Thanks people for the reply. Brother Paul, if healing isn't part of the atonement who is it then that God calls Himsels I am the Lord, your Healer in the old testament and how is it then that Jesus healed all people who He met? And He even sends the disciples into the world to do the same. Then what is Gods will in physical healing? It looks like a lot of people are getting healed in the bible. So we believe in healing (also physical) but how do we apply this? How can this be applied? The Lord commands us to lay hands on the sick and they will heal. Sometimes they do, sometimes not...but the Lord says...they will be healed. How our we to walk and move within the boarders of Gods will concerning healing? Is it Gods will always to pray for sick people? Keep on praying for them for healing? What about the gift of healing? Praying for the sick by the elders? etc.

So where is healing part of? Is it a right of our salvation (hebrew/greek < don't know > means soso > deliverance, healing, salvation i thought). Is healing of the body a promise? Is it Gods will to heal? I've got so many questions.

Some background information. People in my church are very busy with this at the moment and they believe everybody should heal and if it doesn't happen they haven't got enough faith because God wants to. This is short said what's the big issue at the moment. But I really want to know what does Gods word say, what would Jesus do (what did He do?), what did the disciples do in His name, what are we today to do in His name? Is it unbelief? Sin? Other things? That stand in the way of psysical healing? etc.

There are a question or 20 in this post, but I truly hope you can lead me in this brothers.

God bless you.

Brother Paul, if healing isn't part of the atonement who is it then that God calls Himsels I am the Lord, your Healer in the old testament and how is it then that Jesus healed all people who He met? And He even sends the disciples into the world to do the same.

My point is that God has no covenantal obligation to heal us physically (that is, we cannot hold Him to it with demand), as much as we can't hold him to doing a miracle on demand. It is the "prayer of faith" that heals, according to James, and not the anointing oil, and not the blood of Jesus. People were healed physically before He shed His blood, but the spiritual sickness of the root of "sin" in the children of Adam was not healed until He uttered, "It is finished" and died.

Okay, I understand that text in his context it has to do with the matter of sin and a lot of people pull this text out of his context. But before that verse it talks about sickness right or not? (verse 4)
But there are also other texts and stories in the bible about healing. Jesus healed, the disciples healed people etc.

When we look at the new testament...Paul and the disciples did exceeding great miracles (also healings), I see them healing the sick as Jesus send them out as His disciples. Also when the Holy Spirit came, I see them moving out, walking past the gate, raising one up, healing people etc. Jesus never denied healing someone etc?

Then what is the doctrine of healing? As a child of God am I supposed to pray for the sick by the laying on of hands? And then believe God that He acts on this faith, He acts on obedience in this matter? I mean there is healing, there are gifts, there is power of the Holy Spirit...so there must be healing. He sends us to heal the sick in His Name...aren't we suppose to give ear to that?

And if it doesn't happen, we continue praying for the sick person? I've seen people who just didn't get healed, but as people kept on praying they got healed and still healed today.

How do you see all of this brother?

PS. And what's the difference between Jesus healing before the cross and the disciples after the cross?

And if it doesn't happen, we continue praying for the sick person? I've seen people who just didn't get healed, but as people kept on praying they got healed and still healed today.

When you come to the painful realization that God is under no covenantal obligation to do a specific miracle for us, whether it be physical healing or some other miracle like raising the dead, you will come to the blessed rest in only seeking God's will in the matter, whatever it is or how dire and impossible the situation may be. You won't have to [i]try and try[/i] to pump up your faith to some undetermined level in order to effectuate a healing in Jesus' Name; and you won't be crestfallen when the person you earnestly pray for never sees the miracle healing you want to see - or even dies (as this happens very often). Brother, when we can learn to pray for miracles in the mindset of [i]not my will, Lord, but Thy will be done[/i], and if what we seek will bring glory to the Name of God and accomplish His will and purpose [b]in the life of that person,[/b] then we will have rest in our spirits notwithstandng the outcome of the prayer. Like the Apostle Paul, it may not be in God's perfect will to remove the thorn right now...or maybe ever. We dont know; only God knows, and so we seek to align our will with God's and pray out of it. Once, I actually heard a Pentecostal preacher tell the congregation to be careful not fall into the "trap" (yes, he said trap) of saying [i]"If it be your will, Lord"[/i] when praying for a miracle healing.

We also seem to forget that God heals through modern medicine and on operating tables. This is the equivalent of Him speaking to us in a soft, still voice rather than by fire or a thunder clasp. Both methods are miracles! It is ironic that the godless and heathen will call a sucessfull surgery a "miracle", yet God's own children will sit down, cross their arms and pout because they were not answered by fire.

Then what is the doctrine of healing?

Hi brother. Maybe there is much to consider just in the way you phrased this ... not you personally but as it is taught or understood in our day. Is it a doctrine at all or something made into a doctrine?

I cannot tell you how appreciative I am for what Paul has stated throughout, coming from where I once was and where you have mentioned that of your own church's slant on all this ... This is one area that can give a great rise to indignation over the abuse of the scriptures. Starting with the stripes of Isaiah that were put to the back of our Saviour, the flesh ripping stripes, the undeserving stripes- somehow made, actually belittled into this said doctrine right on out to all kinds of foolish notions.

It is likely dangerous to say so but I would posit that some of those things the disciples did under the Lords instruction, at that time, in those circumstances may not have been set into granite 'for all time'. At the very least it might be put to our consideration that this is a very distinct possibility. I am thinking of the first, short missionary journey in the one instance amongst others.

That being said I do understand the difficulty that you have and that I would also to some extent. Indeed what are we to do with James praying for the sick and the anointing oil - and even the faith issue? ... The faith matter is probably the first that I would pull down the heaping coals upon some heads for their unspeakable abuse, this idea that it is [i]your fault[/i] and [i]your failure[/i] that someone did not get 'healed'.

It is the [i]manner[/i] of how this is put that it guilts people, manipulates them - contorts and in far too many cases actually sells indulgences of a long ago similarity in return - That is cold hard cash to the charlatans in exchange for their supposed giftings and your or your loved ones deliverance. The Lord had some very strong words about stumbling and milestones that are applicable.

Faith that He is able or faith He [i]will[/i] seems to be the condition. You can believe till your eyes pop out, you can have the faith of a mustard seed I recall - Is this the precondition, the arm twisting as it were that brings forth the results? Faith and unbelief are very important matters and maybe someone else could take this up and elaborate further.

What I did want to offer was some alternate perspective. One is just to peel back the recent years ideas and look to the old path wanderers that we are fond of. Something I have been chewing on for a few days and attached to;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14907&post_id=194887&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=193276&forum=45#194887]Death awaits[/url]

From Richard Baxter, an excerpt;

[i]Misunderstand not sickness, as if it were a greater evil than it is; but observe how great a mercy it is, that death has so suitable a harbinger or forerunner: that God should do so much before he takes us hence, to wean us from the world, and make us willing to be gone; that the unwilling flesh has the help of pain; and that the senses and appetite languish and decay, which did draw the mind to earthly things: and that we have so loud a call, and so great a help to true repentance and serious preparation! I know to those that have walked very close with God, and are always ready, a sudden death may be a mercy; as we have lately known divers holy ministers and others, that have died either after a sacrament, or in the evening of the Lord's day, or in the midst of some holy exercise, with so little pain, that none about them perceived when they died. But ordinarily it is a mercy to have the flesh brought down and weakened by painful sickness, to help to conquer our natural unwillingness to die.[/i]

All this is just a piece of consideration. Hebrews speaks of 'others' not being delivered and while that may not be 'healing' precisely it does show forth what Paul is stating - Whose will is it and what will is ours to be seeking.

For my own sake and from my own observation I keep in the back of my mind reading scripture the thought of incident or precedent, principle or character - What I want to say is this age seems very bent on premise based applications. Whole ministries based on narrow understandings of select sections; Prophecy. Healing. End times. Prosperity. Right on out to whole denominational prospects built out of and around their own exegeted or esiegeted passages, they start with a premise and force everything to fit into it. It is the wrong way around the whole council of God's word.

Suffering comes into play just as well - what is taking up a cross but an instrument of suffering and death? Something we are to do daily.

Not physical we might say but what was the end of the disciples? Somehow this all gets lost in the 'doctrine' of healing as does sickness and death, that sequence which most of us will inevitably meet as these tents breakdown and we draw closer to the blessed end of this temporal dwelling.

[i]And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.[/i] Luk 4:23

[i]Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.[/i] Mar 15:30,31

I thought I would add this very short video excerpt by Zac Poonen into the discussion. In it, he talks about the unhealthy affection and the wide-scale falling away of the church over physical healing, prosperity, and miracles at the expense of the real healing and deliverance from personal sin. He packs some great truths and sobriety into a mere 3:47, and even explains the means by which God gave him light on these truths. Take a few minutes to view it; you'll gain much.

[url=http://video.aol.com/video-detail/being-protected-from-deception-by-zac-poonen-clip-2/4197896830?icid=acvsv1]Zac Poonen 3 Minute Video[/url]

Dear brothers, thanks for your explanation and wisdom in these things.
I understand that nowadays a lot of people are following health/wealth preachers etc. and that a lot of deception is going on. But when it comes to my own life, when it comes to looking at healing from scripture, acting on Gods word then what is Gods truth in that?

For example…a while ago someone had really pain in his left wrist for a few months. Immediately I said, let’s pray for this that God would touch it and take the pain away. So we prayed together and the day after he send me a message and said, the pain is gone…hallelujah!

Now I think…when I see someone who is sick, or has pain… I just pray for them in Jesus Name and believe them to get healed because I believe God will hear my prayer and will work through that prayer and the laying on of hands.
Sometimes He heals, sometimes he doesn’t. But when He doesn’t we pray again. And we search His will concerning healing and the person. Is that biblical? Is that Gods will concerning healing? That we pray if there are sick among us. Because this is how I stand in all of this.
I believe God can heal, I believe His Spirit lives within me and I believe when we lay hands on the sick they do get healed. And sometimes not but I don’t know how that comes. But never I see it’s Gods will not to heal. I understand there are cases that people won’t get healed because of His higher will, are old or God calls them home, God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?) etc. but maybe there is more possible then we believe or pray nowadays? (without any pressure)
I’m not talking about charlatans etc. at the moment, but I’m talking about how we apply praying for sick people in our own life. I understand that the main focus is live or die I am Christ and my days are in His hands. But I also do believe God wants us to pray in our needs and we can receive from Him.
Correct me if I’m wrong in all of this.

So the give a summary…
- when someone is sick…
- they go to the elders and get prayed for
- when no elders in the neighborhood they get prayed for by a child of God
- the Christian prays in Jesus Name with laying on of hands for healing
- God will hear this prayer (healing / no healing / continue to pray for healing / pray for other things as the time goes by and He reveals His will).

Is this biblical / a godly view on this matter?

PS Sorry for my English sometimes (dutch people )

Brothers Paul & Mike,

I mostly agree and appreciate very much your posts but there is something still left unanswered by what Dirk W I believe is trying to say. I very much disagree with the WOF doctrines that have brought damage to many in the body of Christ. I believe the foundation of true Christianity is grounded in the altar, the blood, and the cross of Jesus Christ. I also have seen many over the years die with cancer, at the hand of doctors.

I believe that everything that we receive from God is in the atonement of Christ on the ground of the blood He shed for our redemption. Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ. It is clear from the bible that sin is the cause of sickness being in the world. I will mention a few scriptures below showing that the atonement that Christ made for us is the only remedy for our sins and sickness.

Exodus 15:26 (KJV) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Isaiah 53:4-6 (KJV) 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Matthew 8:17 (KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Furthermore I would like to add what Jesus said about following Him.

Matthew 16:24-25 (KJV) 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

The scripture tells us in many places that Jesus is to be our Lord in order for Him to be our savior. When we surrender our life to the lord Jesus we become His property and we have been bought with a price and we are not our own. He is our savior and our healer. We suffer with Him and we reign with him. We are not to be unwise but knowing what the will of the Lord is for us. He teaches us to follow Him through the trials of Life. We are to believe and trust Him for our salvation. He becomes to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Whenever a situation or need arises we are to seek Him with faith, fully trusting in Him for the outcome. I have not found a scripture in the bible that refers us to go and seek the best health insurance and the best doctors to keep us well. He says that He is the one who saves us and heals us and that He will supply all of our needs according to His riches in glory. He is a jealous God over his people and his people are jealous for His glory. There are a few people who had rather die than live in unbelief. When we are sick we should seek God and be more concerned for holiness in our life and believe that God will cleanse us from sin and produce character in us but will still heal us for his glory. If we being evil can give good things to our children, then how much more will our heavenly Father give good things to His children who ask him in faith and obedience fully trusting in Him?

2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2Ch 16:13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

The question is have we come to the place where we had rather die in the hands of the Lord than in the hands of the doctors. Jesus is the only physician I really trust in. Don’t get alarmed I am not talking about those who are lost and don’t know Jesus. I am also not talking about those born with a problem already requiring medical attention. I am just wondering today where are the people who have been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost experiencing his power and holiness and truly believe that he is now the only healer and physician they will ever need.

We in America spend billions of dollars on the medical profession and more people are getting sick and dying in the hands of doctor’s everyday. People are so afraid if they have the slightest problem they feel they must go through all kinds of expensive tests to see what is wrong with them. Many Christians are not denying themselves anymore and trusting God, they trust the best tests and doctors and it is costing them dearly.

We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician. I understand doctors have a place, but when our faith in God is so vital to our walk with the Lord and the bible mentions that if we doubt in God we will not receive anything from the Lord. The only place where it specifically instructs the sick among them is to call for the elders to pray over them in the name of the Lord and it says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the lord shall raise them up, and if they have committed sins it shall be forgiven him. We know this is in James 5:13.

What I have gathered from this is that when a believer is having a problem then he is to seek the Lord in obedience and God can bring him through according to his faith and obedience. The prayer of faith back then was strong faith that the elders had achieved from Christ through the power of the Spirit that is largely missing today because of unbelief, that the sick person could be healed when they hadn’t been totally obedient in their faith walk with God because it says that if they have committed any sins they would be forgiven. The problem today is that the church needs to return to the beginning. In most churches today the prayer of faith is not in them and many Christians are not walking in obedient faith to be healed from sickness and therefore we don’t see that many healings.

How can we believe that people are actually going to hell because they have not obedient faith in the Lord Jesus for their salvation from sin, but yet we don’t believe that people are really not getting healed because of their lack of obedient faith in the Lord Jesus? The bible says that Jesus healed all that came to him. The bible says that Jesus was willing to heal all but because of unbelief He was not able to do many miracles in his own home town. The bible says that Jesus marveled at great faith and that he also marveled at the unbelief in his home town. Jesus was always reproving his disciples for their lack of faith in Him. He is still reproving us today of our lack of faith in him!

Blessings to all!

Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ.

I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God [i]must[/i] heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do [i]any[/i] miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the [i]gifts of the Spirit[/i], grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.

If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin, because you are right - the Bible teaches that sin is the cause of sickness - and this is true, but as entering through the transgression of Adam in a general sense...but it is not necessarily with each and every individual case, as scripture shows us. The disciples questioned the Lord on one occasion: "Master, who sinned, - the mother or father - that this man is sick like this?" Jesus answered: "[i]No one sinned.[/i] But this man was born like this so the works of God would be manifest." In other cases, the Word teaches that Satan can afflict a person - see Luke 13:11 for an example.

Brother, if you like, we could do a detailed study on the blood, it's proper value and uses and estimation in the eyes of God accoring to each example where the blood of Christ is mentioned. We would need to make a new thread, of course. I would be willing to walk through it with you.

Brother Paul

We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician.

Now, just to open a challenge, I submit to you that Jesus presented the medical use of oil and bandages and wine in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Paul prescribed a little wine for Timothy's stomach, and the Lord did not say that it was wrong for the woman with the issue of blood to have gone to the physicians. It would have been a great time to once and for all time clear up any future debates, as he knew it would one day pose. Instead, He focused on her [i]faith.[/i]

Just a few thoughts I'm tossing your way. I've got my glove on - you can toss the ball back when you're ready. Just be gentle. You throw back hard enough and it stings...even with the glove on.

Brother Paul

God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?)

Ah, but see how humble I am because of my sickness and pains!

If this were true then let us pray all the more to get sick. The sicker we get the more we are learning, yes? This is the same misunderstanding as what Paul warned against, Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

Or, like Paul's "thorn in the flesh", I would have to ask, Paul said he received this messenger (angel) from satan for "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations." What abundance of revelations have you that you should share in this trouble? In this respect I have serious doubts that Paul was physically ill by this "thorn".

There is a great deal to say concerning healing and forgiveness of sins. As far as I have seen and read in Scriptures healing of the body would be like a "shadow/type" of healing of the soul and spirit.

Matthew 6
5. "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, and walk'?
6. "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life. And though we know that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men and that He freely forgives and pardons and redeems, not everyone shall be saved. This is because not everyone will come to Him even though He calls us all unto repentance.

Now, while I believe that God is the Healer and Physician and I personally put no trust in doctors, etc., there still is something to say for simple remedies and caring after the sick.

In terms of the Good Samaritan, I would have to question whether the Samaritan would be considered part of the Jewish convenant. Though he indeed set a fine example of Christian compassion; doing the best we can with our human abilities. All the same, we need not neglect or diminish the compassion and desire of God to heal.

In terms of a little wine for Timothy's stomach, I would have to question why Timothy was having some stomach problem. My first guess would be stress rather than some sickness of sin. For stress is caused by great and considerable care for the circumstances (which could be sinful reasons). But the circumstances and cares of Timothy would have to have done with the church and lost souls, etc., especially considering the persecution from the Jews and Gentiles. A little wine helps settle the nerves and helps relax, besides health/nutrition benefits.

Mind you these answers are very brief and by no means complete. Just a little something to help the discussion.

I would interpret this from scripture simply by looking at Jesus. He healed ALL who came to him in faith. Most people who pray for healing have enough faith to get healed, but they have been taught error by the church, and that causes them to doubt. But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal. Jesus never had to stop and pray to find out if someone who came to him for healing should be healed or not.

Brother Paul wrote

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I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God must heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do any miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the gifts of the Spirit, grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.
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The blood is for God to be able to forgive us in accepting the sacrifice of Christ for our sins in the shedding of blood on the cross. The blood deals with our sins committed but the cross is God’s way of dealing with the sin nature by crucifying Jesus as the last Adam and the representative of the human race.

The bible says in Romans chapter 5 that we are justified by faith and also by the blood. I agree with you that pleading the blood does not obligate God to heal us and neither does speaking the name of Jesus obligate God to do anything either. God shows mercy and compassion on whomever he chooses to, because without true faith that God accepts we can receive nothing. I believe God is compassionate toward our weaknesses. The apostle Paul said that when he was weak then he was strong because Christ made him strong in his weakness because he was no longer depending on himself but Christ. I don’t like what the faith movement has done in saying that all you got to do is speak it until it happens or claim it and you got it. Faith cometh by hearing and not by speaking. It is a fallacy to think that we can say the right words and it will happen.

I don’t believe a person has to say the name of Jesus all the time but He must know He is there in His Name. I don’t believe a person has to say I plead the blood because the bible does not say that he has to say this even though God can honor a true heart of faith in a person saying it. The bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. We must believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.

I believe though we must understand the blood covenant. We must understand that if the blood is not applied then there is no forgiveness of sins. We must understand that the Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean vessel that has not been cleansed by the blood. The Holy Ghost will not go where the blood has not gone and will not continually dwell in a person who has not received the revelation of the cross in him being crucified with Christ.

Paul wrote
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If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin,
(Quote)

The bible says our sins have separated us from God where He will not hear us. We have no righteousness of our own, the only righteousness we can have is through Christ and His shed blood for us. I see no where that God will answer us according to our righteousness but only on the ground of Christ blood righteousness. The bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood. The life of God comes to us by the blood of Christ. This is what I mean when I say the blood of Christ makes it possible for God to bless us. The cross would do us no good if Christ had not shed his blood on it and died. Our faith would do us no good without redemption through the forgiveness of sins because of the blood sacrifice of Christ. Christ is all and in all by his life being given to us through his sacrifice in the shedding of blood on the cross.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The Normal Christian life by Watchman Knee has been a great blessing to me. He says it so well about the blood being primarily for God to see and what the value of the blood means to God. It is impossible for us to truly value the blood because we don’t understand it the way God does. We must know that God truly values the blood of His Son. I greatly fear God and am very careful that I don’t demean the value of the Blood of his Son but greatly appreciate its value to God for us.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We can not make God or hold God to anything but we must value what he values. I never use the blood to try and make God do something I have only come to understand that I have no righteousness of my own but only His righteousness do I cling to. I have heard some say don’t say “I plead the Blood” but say “I claim the blood” but I am careful how I approach God and I don’t demand my rights because I don’t have any because I am a wretched sinner needing to be cleansed by His blood. I know that God does not have to hear me but I know he always heard Jesus. He said this is my beloved Son and I am well pleased with Him. He never has nor ever will say this about anyone else outside of Christ. I will let the blood of Jesus speak for me and I believe that if God will do anything for me it will be because His Son is the answer to everything.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There are many places I do believe where the blood of Christ and the death of Christ are synonymous meaning Christ dying is meaning He shed his blood for us and Christ shedding His blood meaning in dying for us. The blood carries the life.

Brother Paul I appreciate your writings very much and I don’t know how much time I would have to give to it but I would be very interested in a study on the blood. I say this with humility but honestly also, that I would love for you to start the thread because I recognized the gift in writing that you have and I need more learning in how to express what I am trying to say in my writings. But I am at peace my brother and really do want to learn. I feel that we would be on Holy Ground because there is so much more to God’s holiness that we could enter into because of the blood of His Son.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Blessings to all!

But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal.

I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as .... ([i]it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life[/i].)

I know this is a commonly accepted idea, but is it true scripturally? If we just take a look at what it means to say this and measure it against the results, it raises some pretty big issues.

By big issues do you mean the implications for the weakness of the church?

To put it plainly, we know that Christ's sacrifice was not a limited atonement. Just as God, who is Love, does not love partially.

In my mind, it would appear that God is withholding a great deal for the purposes of judgment and the end of the Last Days. Perhaps I may be wrong, either way, I do not believe that the church shall remain as it is. I believe there shall again be a "revival" as like the "church of Acts". The difference being, I do not conceive a final great "ingathering" but much more a great "falling away".

I would say it will be more like the great plagues of Egypt. God will once again shew great wonders but instead of repenting the people will harden their hearts against God and despise His servants.

Anyways, I am more of less speculating. I don't like to get into a lot of prophecy concerning the End Times for the simple fact that much of it is still hidden. And this bothers me because we have so many books and teachers who talk about it like they have it all figured out.

But on a more practical example. I have been to several different "prayer meetings" throughout the valley here in Las Vegas and I can say honestly that on the majority these people do not pray. Though they certainly think they do. We need to ask the hard questions. These people can pray 20 years for the same petition of healing, or whatever, and nothing come of it. So if we want to talk about the prayer of faith, then very simply, if God hears us then we have what we have asked of Him. Are we getting what we ask of Him? Why not?

I answer with Keith Green, God "wants hearts of fire, not your prayers of ice."

You have to ask what was Paul's affliction. He wrote it was a messenger of Satan to buffet him. The Greek for messenger is translated "angel".

Secondly, don't forget why he got the "thorn in the flesh" : And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So unless you have some great revelation from God himself, you probably don't fit into that category.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I dont have time to read this entire thread, so someone else may have already said this... but...

If all are to be healed, then why was Paul not healed after he asked the Lord to heal Him 3 times?

And what of death? Everyone dies of something. If not an accident, then of some sort of health failure. Do we just run out of 9 lives? No... we all die from health related problems unless we die in some accident.

Common sense tells you that God does plan to heal everyone who comes to Him in faith. To most of us He says what He said to Paul... "my grace is sufficient for you".

Krispy

I agree that the results in Western Churches are quite poor. However, our experience doesn't trump the revelation of God and God's will in the Bible!

One of the main problems that we have is that we have been taught to doubt that we will be healed, and that causes our experience to be what it is. Again, simply study Jesus, the perfect image of the invisible God. Nowhere does the Bible show that Jesus stopped and prayed to find the will of healing for certain people. He knew that Father wanted them to be healed.

crsschk wrote:

But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal.

I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as .... ([i]it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life[/i].)

I know this is a commonly accepted idea, but is it true scripturally? If we just take a look at what it means to say this and measure it against the results, it raises some pretty big issues.

At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him [b]all[/b] who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.And [b]the whole city[/b] (KJV says all) was gathered together at the door.Then He healed [b]many[/b] who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him. MAR 1:32-34 NKJV

they brought ALL who was sick, and Jesus healed MANY.

Mark never comes right out and says if all were healed or not, however, polys, the Greek word used for "many" also means great or most. Even if some weren't healed, it doesn't mean that God wanted some of the people to remain sick, as His will isn't fulfilled in many matters for various reasons. But at other times Jesus heals ALL in a great multitude, ALL who were sick, etc.

hmmhmm wrote:
At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him [b]all[/b] who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.And [b]the whole city[/b] (KJV says all) was gathered together at the door.Then He healed [b]many[/b] who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him. MAR 1:32-34 NKJV

they brought ALL who was sick, and Jesus healed MANY.

[u][b]John 2:23-24 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Some food for thought:

[url=http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv3/sprtmnv3cont.htm]Watchman Nee: The Spiritual Man - Volume 3 - PART TEN: THE BODY - 2. Sickness[/url]

agree that the results in Western Churches are quite poor. However, our experience doesn't trump the revelation of God and God's will in the Bible!

One of the main problems that we have is that we have been taught to doubt that we will be healed, and that causes our experience to be what it is.

Again, is it indeed God's will always to heal?, not come to the knowledge of the truth, not that all might be saved, this is not in question, this ultimate 'healing' is all that will ever matter long after the tents are destroyed.

Where do we find the context in the scriptures for the 'always' mindset so prevalent in this day?

Taught to doubt is not the issue either, taught not to presume seems to be just as much of the context in James as the prayer of faith and the oil, for just one example.

On the other hand it is absolutely recognized and I know of no better recent example than what I heard Zac Poonen speak about in this regard. He was referring to George Mueller and honestly stated, "I do not have the faith of George Mueller".

That's paraphrased somewhat, will try and dig it up later as I recall much of this being applicable here.

I do not think for the greater part that it is a lack of faith in this present age as much as it is a preponderance of galling presumption ... 'Prophets' and 'healers' alike ... It is redundant but if this was as true as it is made out to be go and empty out the hospitals, at least a wing, they could start in the ER on any given night.

Evidence is very easy to produce when it is presentable and not a tale to be told.

Joshh wrote:
Mark never comes right out and says if all were healed or not, however, polys, the Greek word used for "many" also means great or most. Even if some weren't healed, it doesn't mean that God wanted some of the people to remain sick, as His will isn't fulfilled in many matters for various reasons. But at other times Jesus heals ALL in a great multitude, ALL who were sick, etc

well, maybe you can explain why the Holy Spirit (God) chose another word for all and the other "great" or "most".

the words are not identical in the original. If it meant ALL i presume God would use the same word that describes how many came to HIM.

but he did not, it is two different words

DOn't look at what you see in the Western Church today, look at what you see Jesus doing in the Bible. Only Jesus perfectly reveals the will of God 100% of the time, and Jesus always healed those coming to him in faith.

And going to the hospital isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think. Jesus, in his hometown, could only do a few healings because of the lack of faith. What makes you think I could go into a hospital full of unbelief and get better results?

crsschk wrote:

agree that the results in Western Churches are quite poor. However, our experience doesn't trump the revelation of God and God's will in the Bible!

One of the main problems that we have is that we have been taught to doubt that we will be healed, and that causes our experience to be what it is.

Again, is it indeed God's will always to heal?, not come to the knowledge of the truth, not that all might be saved, this is not in question, this ultimate 'healing' is all that will ever matter long after the tents are destroyed.

Where do we find the context in the scriptures for the 'always' mindset so prevalent in this day?

Taught to doubt is not the issue either, taught not to presume seems to be just as much of the context in James as the prayer of faith and the oil, for just one example.

On the other hand it is absolutely recognized and I know of no better recent example than what I heard Zac Poonen speak about in this regard. He was referring to George Mueller and honestly stated, "I do not have the faith of George Mueller".

That's paraphrased somewhat, will try and dig it up later as I recall much of this being applicable here.

I do not think for the greater part that it is a lack of faith in this present age as much as it is a preponderance of galling presumption ... 'Prophets' and 'healers' alike ... It is redundant but if this was as true as it is made out to be go and empty out the hospitals, at least a wing, they could start in the ER on any given night.

Evidence is very easy to produce when it is presentable and not a tale to be told.

Because most were healed. Again, this does not mean God doesn't want to heal everyone. Like I posted earlier, Jesus couldn't do very much in his hometown because of unbelief. But it is clear that Jesus wanted to!

hmmhmm wrote:
well, maybe you can explain why the Holy Spirit (God) chose another word for all and the other "great" or "most".

the words are not identical in the original. If it meant ALL i presume God would use the same word that describes how many came to HIM.

but he did not, it is two different words

Krispy, you produce the Christian that wants to live to be 2,000 instead of going to Heaven after 70 years. That's not me, and I doubt it's anyone here.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Again... everyone since Jesus has died. Most die from a failure in health. If it was [b]always[/b] God's will to heal those who exercise the faith to be healed... where are the 2,000 yr old people? Produce [b]one[/b] and I'll believe it's [i]always[/i] God's will to heal.

The fact that all people die shows that it is not His will to heal all believers.

This is bordering on WOF.

Krispy

Someone can tell me if I got a right view on things?

Now I think…when I see someone who is sick, or has pain… I just pray for them in Jesus Name and believe them to get healed because I believe God will hear my prayer and will work through that prayer and the laying on of hands.
Sometimes He heals, sometimes he doesn’t. But when He doesn’t we pray again. And we search His will concerning healing and the person. Is that biblical? Is that Gods will concerning healing? That we pray if there are sick among us. Because this is how I stand in all of this.
I believe God can heal, I believe His Spirit lives within me and I believe when we lay hands on the sick they do get healed. And sometimes not but I don’t know how that comes. But never I see it’s Gods will not to heal. I understand there are cases that people won’t get healed because of His higher will, are old or God calls them home, God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?) etc. but maybe there is more possible then we believe or pray nowadays? (without any pressure)
I’m not talking about charlatans etc. at the moment, but I’m talking about how we apply praying for sick people in our own life. I understand that the main focus is live or die I am Christ and my days are in His hands. But I also do believe God wants us to pray in our needs and we can receive from Him.
Correct me if I’m wrong in all of this.

So the give a summary…
- when someone is sick…
- they go to the elders and get prayed for
- when no elders in the neighborhood they get prayed for by a child of God
- the Christian prays in Jesus Name with laying on of hands for healing
- God will hear this prayer (healing / no healing / continue to pray for healing / pray for other things as the time goes by and He reveals His will).

Is this biblical / a godly view on this matter?

PS. When I look at www.blueletterbible.org and look at isaihah 53:4 > He has borne our grieves (choliy > means sickness), carried our sorrows (ma'kob > means sorrow/pain).

did Jesus carry our sicknesses on the cross? He carried our sorrow/pain it also says. Did He do this? And how must I interprete this verse?

Krispy, I answered your question. There aren't 2,000 year old people because no one wants to live that long. And, I do know people who have faith for God to heal them continuously.

Have you heard of FF Bosworth? He lived to a ripe old age, and when he died, he was in bed for a few hours, his family surrounding him. They said some goodbyes, Bosworth laid back, shut his eyes, and he was gone. But no health problems, it was just his time to go.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Why are there no 2,000 year old people? Surely at least one person in all that time could "have enough faith" for God to heal them continuously... right? Instead, all men succumb to their health sooner or later.

Thats a burr under the saddle no one wants to address...

Joshh, you havent answered the question, tho I agree with you that who wants to live that long anyway?

Krispy

Now I think…when I see someone who is sick, or has pain… I just pray for them in Jesus Name and believe them to get healed because I believe God will hear my prayer and will work through that prayer and the laying on of hands.

Sometimes He heals, sometimes he doesn’t. But when He doesn’t we pray again.

And we search His will concerning healing and the person. Is that biblical? Is that Gods will concerning healing?

I believe God can heal, I believe His Spirit lives within me and I believe when we lay hands on the sick they do get healed. And sometimes not but I don’t know how that comes.

But never I see it’s Gods will not to heal. I understand there are cases that people won’t get healed because of His higher will,

God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?) etc.

Google Dr. Roger Sapp. He is one of the few out there that has his head on straight on this subject.

in the bible we have Job, God himself witness he was an upright and righteous man. So he must have had faith, we could say he was the man who possessed the most faith of all living men in that day.

Yet God not only allowed him to get sick, he killed the mans children, and took away all his riches. To teach him somethings, and God is the same today yesterday and forever.

hmmhmm wrote:
Yet God not only allowed him to get sick, he killed the mans children, and took away all his riches. To teach him somethings, and God is the same today yesterday and forever.

God did NOT kill his children or take his riches, Satan did! And God didn't allow him to go through this to teach him something, he did it to teach Satan something.

In short, Satan attacked Job, took his health, and God healed him.

First of all, I'm not WoF by any means. Secondly, I don't think it is WoF doctrine, as about the only thing WoF and I agree on in this subject is God wants us well. Third, what are you implying that I should "buckle my seatbelt"?

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Joshh... you may or may not realize it, but what you are promoting is Word of Faith doctrine. Buckle your seatbelt if thats what you're bringing to the table.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Looked up Roger Sapp. Another faith healer. They're a dime a dozen.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
...and God allowed it, i.e. willed it.

Krispy

There aren't 2,000 year old people because no one wants to live that long.

That's "why"?

Sorry brother but that is not scripture ...

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

By appointment.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'll never understand why some people cry "personal attack" when they get challenged. I havent said anything derogatory about anyone in this thread. I do smell WOF all over this. Mr. Sapp may not consider himself WOF, but so far from what I have read his doctrine on healing is [b]exactly[/b] the same as Hagin and the rest of the WOF'ers. It's not a personal attack to say so. Mr. Sapp is a faith healer.

A dog may call himself a wolf... may even chase deer like a wolf... but he's still a dog.

(not calling Sapp a dog... just making an analogy)

Krispy

You're new here... I'll just let that go.

No, what I meant was that most here will challenge anyone who promotes WOF on this forum. Not just me.

Why not get to know me before you pass judgement on me?

Krispy

Maybe you should spend some time going over what Dr Sapp has to say before you judge him as a WoFer. And if you disagree with him, find a Bible based reason why he is wrong, don't call him a fraud because he isn't clearing out hospitals (I don't think you have in this thread, but that is a common argument from those who think God wants people sick).

Joshh wrote:

don't call him a fraud because he isn't clearing out hospitals (I don't think you have in this thread, but that is a common argument from those who think God wants people sick).

I don't know the man or anything about him, you do.

In your opinion, why isn't he, your friend, clearing out hospitals?

Thanks

Joshh wrote:

There aren't 2,000 year old people because no one wants to live that long.

[u][b]Genisis 6:3 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; [b]yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.[/b]

There are no 2000 year old people because the Lord says there will not be, not because man said there will not be.

Miccah wrote:
Joshh wrote:

don't call him a fraud because he isn't clearing out hospitals (I don't think you have in this thread, but that is a common argument from those who think God wants people sick).

I don't know the man or anything about him, you do.

In your opinion, why isn't he, your friend, clearing out hospitals?

Thanks

Hey Joshh,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Joshh wrote:

Jesus Himself was bound by the unbelief in his hometown, and could do no great works there.

Respectfully, can you point out in the Bible where is says Jesus was bound by people's unbelief and thus could do no great work there? The only thing I can find is this:

[u][b]Matthew 13:58 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

The Bible says that He [u]did not[/u] do mighty works, not that He [u]could not[/u]. Big difference, and it also applies to us folks in the flesh. :-)

Miccah wrote:
Hey Joshh,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Joshh wrote:

Jesus Himself was bound by the unbelief in his hometown, and could do no great works there.

Respectfully, can you point out in the Bible where is says Jesus was bound by people's unbelief and thus could do no great work there? The only thing I can find is this:

[u][b]Matthew 13:58 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

The Bible says that He [u]did not[/u] do mighty works, not that He [u]could not[/u]. Big difference, and it also applies to us folks in the flesh. :-)

Sorry if I clouded things up for you, I wasn't trying to. I was replying while I was on a break at work, and in my haste, picked a poor choice of words.

There have been many good posts on the subject of healing and we can all learn from one another if we go to the Lord with a teachable spirit. As with many other bible subjects, I at one time thought that I had healing all figured out, but I have had to change some of my beliefs as I received more light from the Lord on the subject.

Jesus clearly showed in His earthly ministry that it was God's will to heal the sick.

I believe that healing is in the atonement.

"The greatest of Hebrew Scholars of every denomination for at least a couple of hundred years when giving an exact, accurate translation of verse 4 in Isa.53 all agree that it is speaking of physical illness, sickness and disease. Surely he hath borne our griefs (Kholee=sicknesses) and carried our sorrows (Makob=pains). Every time these words for sickness and pains are used in the Old Testament it is never speaking of spiritual things but always physical. The author of Youngs concordance translated this verse as Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, and our pains he hath carried them. Other popular careful preachers of the Word saw this, such men as Alexander McLaren, A.J. Gordon, Andrew Murray, A.B. Simpson, Sidlow Baxter and others." (Keith Malcomson)

There are many promises of God concerning physical healing, and all of these promises are for the children of God. Many people are not healed either out of a ignorance of the promises of God or a failure to appropriate these promises by faith.

If we know that healing is the will of God, then we will not pray "if it be thy will", but we will pray according to His revealed will in His Word.

There are gifts of healing that have been given to the Body of Christ. These gifts would not have been given to the Church if it wasn't the Lord's will to heal His people.

The Word says that "Believers shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." This is the right and privledge for every child of God, to be a channel for the Lord to flow through.

The Word exhorts those that are sick to call for the elders of the Church. The prayer of faith shall save the sick.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a full gospel. We have settled for much less than a full gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed good news because it is the power of God to be saved from our sins, delivered from the powers of darkness, and healed of our sickness. Look up the meaning of the Word salvation in the greek, and you will clearly see this.

Now the question always arises: How come all are not healed? That is very simple: "God is sovereign." God sometimes has a higher purpose than removing the sickness or disease from the person.

Thank you all for this discussion on healing. We can all learn from one another.

Mike

Hi Mike, 2 questions:

You said:

Jesus clearly showed in His earthly ministry that it was God's will to heal the sick.

I believe that healing is in the atonement.

If we know that healing is the will of God, then we will not pray "if it be thy will", but we will pray according to His revealed will in His Word.

Now the question always arises: How come all are not healed? That is very simple: "God is sovereign." God sometimes has a higher purpose than removing the sickness or disease from the person.

And, Col 1:15 says Jesus is the image of the invisable God. During his earthly ministry, Jesus never had to stop and pray to see if a person was to be healed or not. In fact, there are multiple times that Jesus healed all in a multitude. Respectfully, where do you see that sometimes God has a higher purpose to leave people sick?

"Respectfully, where do you see that sometimes God has a higher purpose to leave people sick?"

Hi Josh,

Have you ever known someone that was believing God for their healing, yet they were not healed? Now some may say that it was because of their lack of faith, but I have known of people that have believed God for their healing right down to death's door and yet they were not healed.

I know of one case where a man of God was praying for His father in law to be healed, and the Lord impressed this man to stop praying, because it was His will to take the man while he was walking with God. There was a time when he wasn't walking with God, and the Lord knew that this was the best time for him to go.

We know that it is God's will to heal the sick, and we stand on the promises of God, but we can't dictate to God when or how the healing will take place, and sometimes it might just be the "ultimate healing".

There are also laws that if we violate, we cannot expect God to heal us. If we abuse these bodies and we are sick because of it, do you think the Lord is going to heal us unless we repent and stop putting junk in the temple of the Holy Ghost?

Mike

Mike, I know people like that! I don't think it's lack of faith, but usually doubts that overshadow their faith that keep them from getting healed. But I've only had my thinking changed on the subject in the past year.

A thing I disagree with you on is regarding when the healing will take place. When I look at Jesus in the Bible, I see the healings usually happened rather quickly. I look at the story of the 10 lepers. What a great time to show that God has a different time to heal people. Yet, all 10 get healed that hour.

I'll probably get slammed for this, but I don't think that getting healed is due to keeping laws. I will also say that living a holy life should be very important to any Christian. But, looking at Jesus, I see that he healed multitudes, and I'm sure there were a few bad people that came for and got the healing they were looking for.

Just an add on to the above paragraph: I don't think my good works are good enough to recieve ANYTHING from God. Everything I get from God, whether healing, salvation, a roof over my head, food in my stomach, etc, is only given to me because of what Jesus has done for me. Everything God has given me is due to his grace, and nothing more.

Krispy, I don't think death could be the ultimate healing. Seriously, someone with a bad back and blind living that way for 40 years and they die and we call it a healing? Where in the Bible do you see that? Do you see Jesus saying to anyone coming to him that they would have to die to get healed? And while I'm sorry your friend died, I disagree that God wanted her to go from cancer.

I'm not going to get into an argument about whether we limit God's power by doubt and unbelief or he chooses not to display his power. However, to say our beliefs and doubts don't play a role in seeing the power of God is wrong.

Mark 11:23-24:

For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

James 1:6-7

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

Joshh,

While I agree that unbelief needs to be addressed in the body today, the "name it and claim it" doctrine should NEVER be embraced. As you know, a doctrine of healing cannot be comprised of bits and pieces of the Bible and patchworked together. The Lord has given man a full gospel to use, and it should be.

By embracing this doctrine, one can assume that they have power to change the Lord's will in dealing with man, taking away the soverign authority of the Lord. Does man play a part? Yes. Why do I say that? Because the Bible says so. The Lord is soverign.

Also, the passage that you quoted in Mark, though wonderful, is interpreted many ways. Some take this passage as breaking down strongholds in the spiritual realm and not the physical. Asking for things that are not of this earth.

Also, the verse you quoted in James 1:6-7, what is your views on the beginning of this book, specifically James 1:2-4 in its entirety?

Do you read the beginning of these verses as the Lord allowing believers to go through times of trial to create a patient attitude and trust in the Lord? That this patience will lead to a perfect work? What is the patience that we are to endure, learn and grow from and is it to be prolonged so the Lord can teach and mold us.

Thanks in advance brother. :-)

Miccah, I'll get to your questions later tonight as I'm on break from work and need to get back soon. I will say though that I don't see how I have patchworked anything. I've simply taken what Jesus did and said and made my beliefs from that. I've also seen people who don't agree with me take some things in the Bible, and combine that with their personal experience to form their beliefs. That is a patchwork. No matter how our personal experience effects us, it doesn't trump the revelation of the Bible.

Miccah, first of all, it would depend on what you're claiming! I found this site looking for David Wilkerson sermons, and he has one titled "perfect righteousness, your inheritance, claim it". And I agree with him, there is nothing wrong with claiming that. Now I do think there is something wrong with claiming a car or mansion or something, however.

Again, I haven't patched anything together, my beliefs on healing comes right from the words and actions of Jesus. People who base their healing doctrine on their own experience and the Bible is a patchwork. And while I agree with you that God is soverign, he does grant some responsability to us.

Dealing with Mark 11, I agree it can apply to the spiritual, however, Jesus spoke those words regarding the fig tree he cursed.

As far as James goes, I wothout a doubt believe we will go through difficult times while on the earth. We live in a fallen world, and bad things will happen to good people. However, I don't believe that this is talking about sickness, as looking at Jesus, he always healed those who came to him un faith needing a healing.

Krispy, If you really want to see documentation, I can ask for it. However, you need to be aware that for him to share this with the public, the sick person would have to get that medical report from the doctor, send it to Roger, and sign a release saying that he can share it with other people. If he doesn't have all of that, you won't see it. Now, I will tell you that I know person who has had Roger at his church, and he did tell me that people went to the doctor and testified that they were confirmed healed. I've also googled his name and seen people who have been to his meetings and have claimed to be healed.

Now as far as him being WoF, I really wonder how open minded you are when you're reading what he says. I've never heard a WoFer warn people of being greedy, and use Eph 5 to equate greed with sexual sin, yet Roger does that. I've never heard comeone like Copeland, Dollar, etc tell people of multiple times God has required them to give every possession away, but Roger has. 3 times, in fact. Paul Washer, one of the favorites here, has had to twice. In reality, Roger is more into returning the church to they way it was in the first century then he is a WoFer. Perhaps you can tell me how his article called "The subtle Spirit of Antichrist" is WoF. Tell me how "Early Church Rules for Traveling Ministry" is WoF. "Honoring the Truth-Teller"?

Like Krispy, I too had never heard of Roger Sapp until now. Through a website called "All Nations Ministries and Publications" (the first link I clicked on after entering his name in a search), I found a little bio on him. I don't know how accurate or reliable this information is, but it's on a site that appears to be pro Roger Sapp. Here are a few highlights from the whole. The website can be found [url=http://www.allnationsmin.org/aboutrogersapp.aspx]here[/url].

Since that time approximately 20,000 healings, deliverances, and creative miracles have accompanied his ministry. For more than ten years he has been equipping other believers to do Christ-like healing.

Many have commented that these books were set them free from legalism and they finally began to see continual blessing in their finances.

He holds a Bachelor, a Master of Divinity and Doctor of Philosophy degrees.

He has been a guest speaker frequently at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.

Through a divine dream, Dr. Sapp was able to purchase a very large house in Springtown, Texas where he and his wife live.

Actually had done the same. It is his site. Read through the greater portion of the "Healing Q & A" ...

To be fair I did not get the feeling that this was necessarily of a WOF construct though I did have to hold back a bit with the affiliations mentioned (TACF) after reading the bio as well.

There is actually some pretty good arguments and I must admit that this is an area that has always proved difficult, I think it is intensified precisely due to the abuse that many of us are familiar with. In this day and age to [i]doubt[/i] is a blessing to put it paradoxically, frankly.

I think Josh does deserve some kudos for the way he has handled himself here over all, it's quite a bit of patience shown.

The proverbial but? It still seems there is something of a premise however at the onset and that everything is being measured by that. I am again returning to the site in question. That premise is that it is [i]always[/i] the Lords will to heal. Even the suppositions that he must give way to are met still with an [i]answer[/i]. An answer to each and every question, that puts me back a bit on the .... hmmm level. I do not mean purposefully, intentionally or deceivingly but just as matter of course. It is almost subtle but it is there. "We do not know" is often stated yet a speculation is forwarded anyway and driven back to the premise. It just seems that in many cases it would simply be more honest to say "I do not know" or "We" do not know and leave it that.

But unbelief is a great tremendous matter and the things the Lord said do and have always given me great pause, as they ought. Those arguments are difficult to get around, they tend to be very much in your face ...

It would be very easy to get bogged down in the back in forth by example that he uses, they seem to be little things that just don't quite spell it all out. There are likewise numerous examples beyond the usual fare that are not addressed (perhaps they might be elsewhere in articles there) about God destroying places and people even the original death sentence itself was His edict not the devils (to counter a portion of that argument) .... What it seems to amount to from just this cursory reading is that what he is presenting is air tight, [i]always[/i] and that healing are either delayed (speculative) or the fault lies with ... well I would rather his own words be used than mine attempting to regurgitate them here, they would have to be read.

One thing that did stand out, that this is something that can be 'developed' which I have a very large problem with. What are gifts to begin with, something to be taken or received? It does seem that he forget about;

[i]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; ... etc. [/i] 1Co 12:8-10

Further on Paul states;

[i]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing?[/i] 1Co 12:29,30

The implication and answer is decidedly, no. So to put forth a doctrine that says otherwise, that any one can learn or "develop" a gift that is received is to deny this very admonishen.

I wanted to throw this out here earlier as a challenge and it is just as difficult not to admit a part of this as being .... not disgusted at least in this context since the participants are not being really unruly about it all but just in honesty ... If there is someone here who has this gift of healing in true earnestness and truly cares about whether someone gets healed ... I know of two examples right here, one is as close to me as can be and the other is a dear brother who once upon a time had a very agonizing post going and as far as I know the healing for his wife has not come to pass. Lest I forget there is also a marriage on the line right now from a dear brother that frequents this forum. So, three examples. If those who are assured of all that they believe and all the more power to you honestly, if you have this gift will you not pray for these three? And am I wrong to expect some tangible evidence that they have been effected in the very near future? Please understand this is as earnest a plea as it is a challenge. I would go into all the sordid details in my situation but that have been aired out here over the years already, it has been a tremendously painful experience at times, having tried all that I know, every prayer and guttural instinct I can ... upchuck from my spirit to put it crassly. I have tried not trying and letting it all go, I have cried tears of "Help my unbelief" to believe that the Lord would heal ... Years of this. At the moment it is rather subdued honestly but in the days ahead it will come back in heartbreak and pain and confusion, in pleading and hope and even more prayer, it is never giving up ... but how long, Oh Lord?

To think that there are not others out there in similar and far worse circumstances .. Does this help our particular predicaments gain an understanding? That it is not all so simple as some make it out to be?

A great deal more could be said ...

From the shopping page on the website:

A beautifully printed certificate suitable for framing signed by Dr. Roger Sapp that certifies that the recipient has completed the Group or Self-Study Course for Performing Miracles and Healing. $7.00

This is a "how to" message about getting the right "inner chemistry" to be healed and to heal the sick. $25.00 $17.50

One copy of the Self-Study Course and one copy of the book "Performing Miracles and Healing". A $32.00 value for $25.00.

I will try to address Paul and crsschk's posts to the best of my ability, then make a request at the end.

Paul, regarding the books that set them free from legalism and helped them prosper: These books take on prevailing thought found in western churches today. He shows how tithing, the way it is taught today, is completely unbiblical. The only people required to tithe in the OT were people who raised livestock and crops. That was to feed the Levites, who had a heave offering. He goes through the tithes of Abraham and Jacob, and explores what is said on tithing in the NT. He also is advocating the notion that as a NT Christian, we own nothing. Everything in our possession belongs to God, and we are to be stewards of it. He warns against greed, and tells of how God has required him on several occasions to give everything he owned away, and how it is a very real possibility that He might require the same of us.

As far as the TACF goes, he has ministered there. However, he also has said that he does disagree with some things that they teach, and that they disagree with some things he teaches.

Crsschk, they way he developed his beliefs on healing was looking at the words and actions of Jesus. His premise of it always being God's will to heal is because Jesus shows that. He was ALWAYS willing to heal those who came to him, and only Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Invisible God.

Part of the reason we don't see the healings today is that we are taught to doubt, which will effect our results, which will cause us to doubt, which will effect our results...It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

As far as gifts being developed, well, it would be very hard for a person who doesn't believe that the gift of healing is still in affect today to get that gift. His main point is how open you are to receiving these gifts.

Now about your personal situation: I have no doubt you're convinced that God can heal you. You question if he will or not. What I would say to help your unbelief is to study Jesus and how he healed people. The only requirement was that the people come to Him. The Gospels show that you can't earn a healing, or anything else. It comes to you by the grace of God because of what Jesus has done on the cross. I hope you will see that God not only can heal you, but he wants to heal too.

Now, as for my request: If you scroll down to the bottom of Roger's page, you will find a link to the “pray and obey” section. So I will ask all of you who want to know about Dr. Sapp's theology to click on that and follow the policy, and then read, watch, and listen to all the materials there.

My other request: It has come to my attention that we have hijacked this thread from Dirk's original reason for posting. So if you would like to talk about Roger later, well, please follow the above paragraph and then post a thread about what you would like to discuss. But I would like to get back to Dirk's topic and stop posting about the theology of Dr. Sapp.

Crsschk, they way he developed his beliefs on healing was looking at the words and actions of Jesus. His premise of it always being God's will to heal is because Jesus shows that. He was ALWAYS willing to heal those who came to him, and only Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Invisible God.

Let me emphasize your own statement, [i]He was always WILLING to heal those who came to him[/i] ... This is the issue, even the one that started off this post. But that is different than putting all the mysteries of Gods working into categorical form.

Part of the reason we don't see the healings today is that we are taught to doubt, which will effect our results, which will cause us to doubt, which will effect our results...It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

While partially true the concurring element is also great presumption which effects the results, see James for more on this.

Now about your personal situation: I have no doubt you're convinced that God can heal you. You question if he will or not. What I would say to help your unbelief is to study Jesus and how he healed people. The only requirement was that the people come to Him. The Gospels show that you can't earn a healing, or anything else. It comes to you by the grace of God because of what Jesus has done on the cross. I hope you will see that God not only can heal you, but he wants to heal too.

Well apparently you did not take the time to read that carefully. I was not asking for healing for myself ... There comes a point where the rubber needs to met the road, 'put up or shut up' - That was my emphasis and plea - There are some sufferings of loved ones that I would give my own life to see alleviated, even of the pain of my own Brethrens loved ones, to alleviate [i]both[/i] the sufferer and the one suffering under the weight of burden for their loved ones. To be practically blunt about it, there is a whole lot of talk and little action, results. Tales we have thousands of, give me something I can put my hands on.

Many of us have been through the motions of the false constructs and seen the incredibly galling aspects of real people with real sickness and disabilities, of mental torment and a whole host of issues [i]turned away[/i] by the charlatans of this hour. They are frauds of the worst kind giving a psychological pablum to manipulate and play on the emotions -

As far as gifts being developed, well, it would be very hard for a person who doesn't believe that the gift of healing is still in affect today to get that gift. His main point is how open you are to receiving these gifts.

I did recognize that I had botched that somewhat. The point of the matter is [i]IF[/i] you have this gift and as Paul pointed out, not all do. His premise again is that anyone [i]can[/i] have it which is not what the scriptures teach.

Now, as for my request: If you scroll down to the bottom of Roger's page, you will find a link to the “pray and obey” section. So I will ask all of you who want to know about Dr. Sapp's theology to click on that and follow the policy, and then read, watch, and listen to all the materials there.

I will give it a read.

My other request: It has come to my attention that we have hijacked this thread from Dirk's original reason for posting. So if you would like to talk about Roger later, well, please follow the above paragraph and then post a thread about what you would like to discuss. But I would like to get back to Dirk's topic and stop posting about the theology of Dr. Sapp.

Postings take on a life of their own sometimes and in this case it still applies to the original questions as the perspectives are brought forth. I would also ask you being new to this surrounding (and to others) to also use the search functions on healing for past discussions. You brought up this particular brother and seeing that you are aligned with him in agreement with his theology there is nothing wrong with putting it as well as yourself to the test, just as you are doing with others here.

Truly, we are after the truth I pray more than wining an argument.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Let me emphasize your own statement, He was always WILLING to heal those who came to him ... This is the issue, even the one that started off this post. But that is different than putting all the mysteries of Gods working into categorical form.

Just like I am "willing" to give my kids the best of everything, and would love to lavish them with whatever they want... however, I don't because I know that won't help them grow and mature into godly men.

Krispy

2Ki 13:14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. 2Ki 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him.

Psa 41:3 The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.

Isa 38:12 Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent: I have cut off like a weaver my life: he will cut me off with pining sickness: from day even to night wilt thou make an end of me.

He was basically giving us a standard to see how God treats his kids.

Which is what only fits into a nice tidy idealism, that premise that all this is built upon, namely [i]Always[/i]. This "always" has got to be one of the worst esegesis of scripture on any number of items. It refuses to take into account all the counsel, experience and breadth of what God has already spoken.

[i]Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?[/i] Isa 45:9

[i]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [/i] Rom 9:18-24

Do you not realize that in effect one can be misrepresenting God Himself all the while thinking that they are defending Him?

[i] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out![/i] Rom 11:33

Nay you would say, God [i]always[/i] ... it is sheer presumption and like many other things caries an arrogance with it. Not unlike the prophets of our hour speaking vain things from their vain imaginations when the truth of the matter is that He is not telling us the future in all this exacting detail. It is patently false. It is also just as evident that despite all the contortions of scripture to make them say otherwise it is not [i]always[/i] His will to heal. There is a mountain of evidence to confute these notions, even right here in your midst. To put the blame on the sufferers [i]always[/i] is the height of audacity even if it is done by inference and implication.

We have in our midst hospice workers, nurses, those who have worked in ER situations - They have spoken here on this subject and have far more to say then I, but it is shoved aside as is the challenge to prove out these theories. Read these and explain them, explain them away if you dare or better yet put your gift if you have it to real use. Indeed I am a bit indignant over this. Giving you the benefit of the doubt is one thing but your arrogance is revealing ... do you really care about the relieving of the suffering and sickness that you propose is [i]always[/i] available? Or is it just a theological puzzle put to argumentation?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24725&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Dear Saints on SI please read[/url]

Read it all the way through. What you do not know as you have no longevity here is the tremendous life of the Lord that is in this precious saint. A pastors pastor, a man of evenness and restraint, of great love and patience with the likes of us all here - Put your theology to work and heal this man of God.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24855&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Please pray![/url]

Weep for her. Pray for her. Heal her!

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24777&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Your Prayers Needed[/url]

This dear brother of ours who we have had sometimes no small controversy over pedantic Calvinistic constructs - All of which matters little when his very marriage is on the line. "Physical" sickness is not the only matter that falls into aspects of healing ...

Lastly. Art Katz. One of the most incredible, penetrating and decidedly different man of God to ever come into my hearing and blessed acquaintance even if it was only a matter of so few words. He challenged and still challenges many of us on so many levels, not the least on the matter of [i]authenticity[/i] and thrusting through the sword of [i]spirit and truth[/i] to the dividing of soul and spirit. This man had no theological hang ups and no guile to even be something 'charismatic' while outstripping the charismatics in needed rebuke for their false things.

But it was a long drawn out illness that he suffered, despite all our praying and all the praying of saints around the world. Now you tell me just why that is? Read it, note the dates, note the duration, read it all and fit it into your always theology and tell us where the let down is;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13518&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz' health[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13866&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]URGENT PRAYER NEEDED FOR ART KATZ[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14715&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]How many will agree to fast and pray a day with me for Bro. Art Katz to be healed. Latest update[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17572&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz - Urgent !!![/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14613&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz Feb. 5th[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17666&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz Goes Home[/url]

Joshh said,

"There is a difference between giving them everything they want and a parent letting their kid die of cancer. Jesus said that if we know how to give good gifts to our kids, how much more will the Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him. He was basically giving us a standard to see how God treats his kids. If your kids did something bad, would you throw acid in their eyes, blinding them for life to teach them a lesson? Neither would God."

Here is where we err in the full knowledge of God...........

For He did not spare His own Son.......
He allowed Him to be crucified...
To be beaten.....mocked.....spit on.......scourged......despised......falsely accused........put to shame........stripped.....
This was to accomplish the Will of our Heavenly Father..

God called Israel His son, and yet.....
He sold them into slavery........He allowed famine, the sword, plagues..........to come upon them

Forgive me if this has already been illustrated.......

Yes, we cannot fathom the depth of God's love to us, but we must receive the full counsel of His word in order to truly Know Him.

He has revealed to us who He is, we must not create Him in our own image...........

In His Amazing Love,
Lowly
________________________________
Learn of Me, I am meek and lowly of heart...............

This God [i]always[/i] business, like Mike has said, is but a bane and another symptom of the on-going mass deception and falling away in the church today, whether it be the scripture-wrested assertion of God always healing in the physical, or whether it be with tongues or tithes; it is the human legislation of God's working and dealings with carnal flesh and human understanding. Man loves to draw lines in the sand, draw straight, neat lines and smugly point to them in the power of deduction and logic. I suppose it brings us a sense of security, and an occasion to shrink wrap a little package of divinity. It permits us present the masses with a neat and tidy satisfaction-guaranteed mindset. No longer are the inner mysteries of God's dealing with men seen through a glass darkly - they are now put in a petri dish, observed beneath halogen lamps, and the discoveries published to a voracious religious community.

Brethren on SI, I can tell you that whenever you encounter teachings of the [i]always[/i] and the [i]musts[/i] pertaining to the actions and gifts and tangible dealings a sovereign God - a God whose ways are so far above and beyond ours - it would behoove you to pause and pray for discernment lest you too get emotionally swept away with the flow of human logic and reason. I am not going to debate this with anyone here, so please save your strength; I only speak to those with an ear to hear.

appolus wrote:

Perhaps brothers and sistes should ask themselves this. How many followers of Jesus do we read of in the Bible being healed? And by followers, I mean disciples. Not the crowd who had shown up to see a show or to be fed(John 6) Think about the man outside the temple. He was simply asking for money. There was no background of faith, no build up, no working up of faith. The truth is, there is no formula in the Scripture for healing, that's the end of the argument right there. Bottom line, most Christians I know fear death and disease as much as people in the world, shame on them. That sounds cruel I know, but I repeat, shame on them. The same people who would proudly proclaim this Scripture "O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?," will fall to pieces at the bad report of a doctor and Satan sneers. He sneers because he is not interested in your life, he is interested in destroying your witness. He is interested in your actual treasures, your peace and your joy, your trust and your faith. Just like the Romans had no interest in the actual temple, they knew that it was symbolic, they actually turned over every stone because the sheets of gold was actually inlaid into the very joints of the stone.

Here is the Scripture that lays this open.

Php 1:27 Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, striving together with one mind for the faith of the gospel,
Php 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Brother your writings have been a blessing to me and I'm sure many others.

I agree because it is not what we can do but what God does in us and through us. We have been bought with a price and we are not our own.

We can only receive from God according to the light we have received and are willing to obey.

God does not deal with every one on the same level. We are suppose to be walking in the light. We are suppose to go from milk to the meat of the word.

It is the Holy Ghost doing the work of God. If we are going to do the miracles that the apostles did then we are going to have to be filled and stay filled with the Holy ghost as they were.

Blessings to all!

DirkW,

You have it pretty much there. I've only read briefly on Watchman Nee's writings, but it seems ok so far (I'll attach it again courtesy of Tears_of_joy http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv3/sprtmnv3cont.htm

God does want to heal us, so we should pray for healing. However, not all the time He will want to heal us.

At times, He doesn't heal us due to many reasons, for example:

--to keep us humble (like Paul)
--to chastize us
--to help us grow (as this may be the best way for us to mature as Christians)
--so that we can be a blessing to others (eg: we are put in a hospital where we can witness to others there)
--other myriad reasons that God may chose not to reveal to us or to reveal partially to us

We pray bravely for healing but we also ask God that He heals us only if its in accordance with His will. If it is not in accordance with His will to heal us, then to give us assurance, peace of mind and strength to bear it. We also ask God to reveal to us anything that we need to learn and repent, if this illness is a sort of chastisement from Him.
Also, even during the illness, we ask God how we can give glory to Him (for example, even during the pain, we behave Christlikeness, so that others may see Christ in us during the suffering and in turn be converted etc). When we do that, God will give us peace and the ability to bear under difficult and painful situations and we may even have joy during this period.

Some tend to quote Paul on saying that we should not ask for healing , saying he was not healed on account of his thorn in the flesh.

What people failed to recognise too, is that Paul asked 3x for the healing. On the 3rd time, he finally had enough assurance that it was indeed God's will not to heal him. Therein, you see 1 of the answer, do ask for healing until you are sure that its God's will that it will not be so.

On a sidenote, I've not read Roger Sapp's website, but I will do so in time. I am not so keen to dismiss him just because he sells some books (with supposed offer) etc--not saying that anybody has done that. Everybody is human and some of the best preachers we admire for example, Martin Luther, Augustine, George Whitefield has some teachings that would
be considered heretical but most here have not condemned them because they look overall at their contribution and do not nitpick at them to say--hey just because this particular teaching is wrong, then the whole thing/person is wrong.
We can disagree on certain parts of their doctrine/practise, but until they prove really unreliable, we should not easily dismiss somebody off as wrong.

Crsschk, first of all, if you're going to quote the Bible to back your argument up, post NT verses! Don't post from before Jesus' sacrifice.

This “always” has got to be one of the worst esegesis of scripture on any number of items

Now, about the NT verses you quoted: They aren't talking about physical healing!

Yes, I would say always, because Jesus revealed it is the Father's will to always heal. About my “arrogance”: it isn't arrogant to read what Jesus did and form theology from it! It is quite arrogant to have a bad personal experience and use that to form your own, unBiblical theology. And why don't you show me this mountain of evidence? Go through the Gospels and show me the mountains of evidence you have that it isn't the will of God to heal! Since there are mountains, there must be plenty of times where Jesus refused to heal someone, right?

To put the blame on the sufferers [i]always[/i] is the height of audacity even if it is done by inference of implication

As far as the “challenge” to heal goes: Well, first of all, if these people will have your belief, they probably won't get healed. They're going to have to believe that God wants them well first, not that his will is some mysterious thing that no one can know for sure. I can't “put my theology to work” to heal. It is what I've explained in this very thread, you can't just walk into a hospital full of doubt and unbelief and clear it out. Second of all, it appears that you think that pastorfrin should be healed because he is a good Christian man. We don't get healed because we're good, we get healed because of what Jesus has done for us and He is good! If you approach God from that position, you will get little from Him. As for Art Katz, again, God doesn't heal because we pray, fast, beg, cry, read the Bible, etc, again, only because of what Jesus has done for us. Our best, filthy rags get us nothing from Father. Did Art believe it was God's will to heal him? Or did he think he had to learn something? Or there was a divine purpose?

Now, let me ask you a sincere, honest question. Let's say for a second I could go to Seattle and wherever pastorfrin is located, talk to them, pray for them, and they were both healed. Would this somehow change your mind on this subject? Would you then admit that you're wrong, or would you stubbornly cling to your doctrine that God wants some people sick, and it was a big coincidence that they happened to get healed? How does this fit into my “always theology”? The exact same way someone not getting saved and going to hell fits in my “always God's will to save theology”.

Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father‘?"

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think I'll just bow out of this thread. I posted here to try to show people what I've learned about healing and how I've seen it in action, but I really don't think most people are open to that at this point. If I'm wrong and you would like to discuss healing with me further, feel free to PM me.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think I'll just bow out of this thread.

Bow out so you don't have to answer? That is your prerogative and it is too bad that you would jump to a conclusion midstream ...

Had it in mind to come back here and in essence state that it appeared we had something established in regards to Gods sovereignty and that now we could turn to what I kept alluding to in other mentions; Namely just what the Lord Jesus said on these and related matters, on unbelief and asking in His Name all those things that are [i]rightly[/i] attributable and often difficult to wrestle with. I do indeed mean it in regards to healing. The verses are well known ...

But now there is a digression, that we may have not established a foundation well enough.

Crsschk, first of all, if you're going to quote the Bible to back your argument up, post NT verses! Don't post from before Jesus' sacrifice.

Why? Is there a dichotomy? What does this do to the 'always' aspect? Has the Lord changed His mind since the foundation of the world in this regard? And did He therefore contradict Himself by both healing some and [i]allowing[/i] others not to be healed as it is His prerogative to do so in the "Old Testament"? This is absolutely a matter of God's sovereignty and if we cannot get this established, get a grip on what the Lords will is (not didacticly as you suppose)in any given situation and how we come to understand that we will be stuck right here.

Yes, I would say always, because Jesus revealed it is the Father's will to always heal.

The onus is on you to prove this, which you have failed to do except by supposition, that is by [i]supposing[/i] it to be so.

About my “arrogance”: it isn't arrogant to read what Jesus did and form theology from it! It is quite arrogant to have a bad personal experience and use that to form your own, unBiblical theology. And why don't you show me this mountain of evidence? Go through the Gospels and show me the mountains of evidence you have that it isn't the will of God to heal! Since there are mountains, there must be plenty of times where Jesus refused to heal someone, right?

Check yourself there. The problem with this kind of straw man argument, if you are unfamiliar with the term, setting up a notion or construct and then daring someone to knock it down is indeed arrogant. Giving you real life examples, presently before your very eyes and challenging you to put your money where your mouth is not a 'bad personal experience'. Would you have the nerve to go tell anyone this, those presently under the conditions they are right now facing or have you just done so with your haughty statement? That their theology is unbiblical ...
You are greatly misconstruing all that is being said here.

Perhaps I should request our brother Paul West to inform us of what a decaying corpse is comprised of being that he is a mortician as well as a preacher ...

Where you err is to assume that what many of us are stating is in fact an opposite to your 'always' - and that it is 'never' at the least it is an implication from your rhetoric and could not be farther from the truth. But you know not the Lord at all if your presumption is to presume upon the ways of the Lord as if they are quite so easily spelled out as to be something of a listed self help manual or a selection of questions with all the answers and explanations following, not unlike the gentleman you linked to earlier. If it was all so simple!

You choose to ignore what is plainly before you and turn it around to force it into a paradigm that you have yet to prove [i]scripturally[/i] that 'always' be the case. No one is disputing anything the Lord Jesus did. Jesus did what He did. The gift of healing was given to [i]some[/i] not all, why have you chosen to ignore this point?

When I try to talk to someone about their theology on healing, it isn't to try to put them down, but to try to help them to get what God wants to give them, and what they need for themselves.

Like Paul's many stripes? Like David Brainerd's coughing up blood and almost constant sickness and his shortened life before the days of anti biotics -[url=http://www.higherpraise.com/preachers/brainerd.htm]David Brainerd[/url]. Like all the examples in Hebrews;

[i]Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, [u]not accepting deliverance[/u]; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

And [b]others[/b] had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[/i]
Heb 11:33-38

Ah, you will say this has nothing to do with healing, well extrapolate it out, what does it have to say about the will of God and these of who [i]the world was not worthy[/i] of what they both accepted and experienced? Always? The apostle Paul's beatings and imprisonments and stripes as I alluded to earlier, what was Paul's problem that he did not accept the Lords 'always' healing so readily available and even went so far as to state;

[i]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;[/i] Php 3:10

The fellowship of His suffering. Let's turn to the Lord Himself.

[i]And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.[/i] Luk 4:23

[i]He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.[/i] Mat 27:42

[i]And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.[/i] Luk 22:41,42

Like it or not this is the fact of the matter, [i]not my will, but thine, be done[/i]. It is throughout all of scripture, it is the heartbeat of trusting the Lord in all things and accepting everything that comes from His hands. It is the denying of our self and the carrying of the cross, that instrument of [i]death[/i]. How obstinate must one be to deny this.

[i]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.[/i] Jas 4:7-16

Presumption and boasting, it all applies.

As far as the “challenge” to heal goes: Well, first of all, if these people will have your belief, they probably won't get healed.

And just what pray tell is 'my belief'? Have this all figured as well? Though my opinion is of little consequence and can only be stacked against the weight of what is spoken in God's word ... I'll give it. I believe everything written as it is written. I believe that it is the height of audacity and pride to even question the ability of the Lord to heal anyone at any time as is His prerogative. To presume is deadly and I will not do it. My indignation rises up at the charlatans of this hour with their manipulations and contortions of selected verses of scripture to make incidents precedents, to teach step by step formulaic notions - whether they be "how to" secure finances or 'healings'. To 'name it and claim it' as if the High and lofty One sits on the throne of the universe just awaiting for the creatures to petition Him for anything and everything that their fleshly desires want fulfilled. This 'belief' has become so contorted that their presumptuous notions are even met with surprise, denying their very 'belief' as in fact [i]unbelief[/i] when the Lord does bestow anything of a truth upon them. If He does heal someone they go all to pieces as if to say "Can you believe it?" And must run around boasting and generally exaggerating their very claims. So we have a numbers racket of the 'thousands' healed and raised from the dead and on and on it goes. Strange thing that the Lord Himself often told those that He did heal to in essence kept their mouths shut ... go ahead and dissect that if you will and say it doesn't apply and really means ______. I am using a bit of hyperbole to stress the point. We used to talk quite a bit here about normative Christianity and if one carefully notes the conduct and character of the scriptures when it comes to the super natural as we are want to describe it, it is almost 'always' downplayed. It is a matter of course, normative - not surprising at all. I am not in the least astonished when the Lord does anything that He wills to do. We have a generation of disheveled saints that launch forth and flirt about like butterflies from one 'extreme' to another. If it is not dramatic and overblown, something on the order of Lakeland then on to the next thrill seeking adventure. We have no patience or desire to be content with who the Lord is in Himself but must be stirred up continually, have our soulish senses satisfied at every moment or were bored with it all. The Lord Himself is not enough, [i]what's in it for me[/i]?

My mother died about a year and half ago now. She battled, valiantly I might add, cancer- Endured not one but two major brain surgeries which brought my praying to the depths of marrow, of everything within me. Heal her Oh Lord for thy Names sake! She fell and broke her hip and I prayed all the more and petitioned everyone here for their help. We found out that it was due to a second tumor in her brain that likely caused her to fall in the first place, knocking off her equilibrium. My mothers toughness not the least likely brought about in part to her upbringing, faith and living through the depression, a father who took his own life and the greatest utterance of all that came from her lips during this time; "[i]I put my trust in God[/i]." Said with such a confidence and depth of meaning I will never ever forget it. So strong was she internally, this almost hard to put your finger on aspect of some people - that she was able to go into surgery for the now broken off end of the hip joint, the ball end, have it replaced and then two days later go in for the second [i]brain surgery[/i]. I tell you one thing my folks (and I am adopted mind you) exude a confidence that betrays the likes of some many weaker minds and hearts. They have no fear of death, it is almost uncanny, almost [i]matter of course[/i] certainty that I am sometimes embarrassed when I allow myself down into the stupidest notions of worry and anxiety over the light afflictions and circumstantial day to day things that can so grip me at times.

But my prayers for her healing where perhaps partially answered. I will be honest, there were times when the tension was fairly intense. It is the very root of this subject matter; Do I believe and trust the Lord or not? Will You, Oh Lord in fact heal her and restore her? I prayed the likes of a prayer of Isaiah and Hezekiah;

[i]I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.

And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.[/i] 2Ki 20:3-6

Fifteen more years Oh Lord ... And strange thing that even in knowing and believing (of course!) that this was entirely possible, that even before the thoughts were fully formed that this request would be denied. It was an intuition and not unbelief ... (Truthfully this was where I was really hoping to go with all this, being led of the Spirit, grappling with the Gods wisdom over against the foolishness of mere men and so forth, but still I digress ...)I was perfectly content however, there is an understanding with the Lord that is very difficult to articulate. In the midst of all of these things, there where still answers to prayer. The first brain surgery we were warned because of the tumors location could leave her speech confounded amongst other greater problems - Use your imagination to suppose what might have been going through our thoughts ... What a tremendous joy it was to go in and see her afterwords, after she came to from the surgery and see her smile and talk like she had gone out for coffee, not having half her scalp opened up.

All the way through the Lord was there, His will and purposes, His giving of peace at all the right moments, even the subtle fair warning the day He took her home to be with Himself (The Lord is in need of her I remember thinking). I knew it the morning of the day and arrived at the house only minutes after she had gone on. Precious God to allow all this to happen at home and not in a noisy hospital and furthermore that I could be there to kiss her goodbye, hold her hand and pray the sweetest most profound prayers for those minutes when time stood still and great peace was so evident. I am so grateful to God for the way all of it came about.

I still have much to say and really think it a shame if we leave off all this tremendous subject half baked and half finished. There is a great deal of help to so many if we can really derive what the Lord meant in this realm and how all this applies to our faith, to the Lords wisdom and how we are to appropriate it.

Not to jump too far ahead but if we can establish the foundation of Gods sovereignty there is still;

[i]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.[/i] Joh 14:14

To wrestle with.

Perhaps I should request our brother Paul West to inform us of what a decaying corpse is comprised of being that he is a mortician as well as a preacher ...

I say this for obvious reasons. Jesus always raised the dead, he never turned away a corpse; every occurence in the NT where Jesus comes in contact with a corpse, He raises it (we don't know if Jesus ever went to the grave of John the Baptist). If we use this same logic as certain men apply to sickness, we also have reason to [b]infer[/b] that it is God's will to "always" raise the dead when faith is employed. Jesus raised the dead - and he did so even in the midst of mockery and unbelief. So this precludes the faith element which many of these charlatans lean on to explain a non-healing. This may also explain why faith healers exact their trade only on healing the living and not reversing death - indeed, hypnosis, lack of faith accusations, and psychosomatics have no effect on a dead man. If [i]you[/i] have the faith of a mustard seed and will that God raise the dead by virture of Jesus' many examples in the NT - without first consulting the will of God, like you do with sickness - I unhesitatingly invite you to the funeral home.

The same Word of God that says "by His stripes we are healed" also says that "death is swallowed up by victory." Can we not extrapolate that we also have the victory over physical death, and claim it by faith? You believe and apply this as "always" in the physical concerning sickness, so why not death? I am deliberately speaking as a fool here, for we know that all continue to physically die even though those in Christ have eternal life; in the same sense the Word of God says that[i] we are already healed[/i], even though many are physically sick. Spiritually, these scriptures assure God keeps His promise; [i]physically,[/i] however, we see that all still die, and many of God's mightiest men, men full of faith and bathed in unceasing prayer from the saints (Pentecostal believers incuded), die by disease and sickness. O Death, where is thy boast? "Right here!" Death could say, as the world buries yet another Christian, despite all the prayer of faith having gone up to heaven for healing, by both the afflicted and those who prayed for him.

You cannot separate the two: sickness and death. Both entered into our race by Adam's sin, with the former often serving as the antechamber for the latter. You must take a great leap in exegesis to prove God wills to [i]always[/i] banish one in the physical, yet allow the other to manifest itself with uncontested certainty.

Hi appolus, God bless you too brother. I don't know if I have the faith of the Roman soldier [i]yet[/i], though my faith is growing stronger everyday. An interesting thing about that case: I've seen plenty of televangelists sit on their TV show and proclaim that people are getting healed through the TV show. However, Jesus healed thousands, possibly tens of thousands in his earthly ministry. Out of all of all those people, I can count off the top of my head 3 times where He healed someone that was far away from Him. That method of healing appears to be the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of healings came from Jesus touching the person.

Bow out so you don't have to answer?

No Mike, I'm not running scared of you, despite what you might think. It is quite obvious to me that there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind on this subject, so I will say or do nothing to you about this subject anymore. I'm not interested in getting in a long, drawn out forum war where he who posts last wins by default.

Ah you are mistaken brother. It is none of these things. Think about it; "[i]It is quite obvious to me that there is nothing I can say or do that will change your mind on this subject[/i]. And I might say the same of yourself but we never got around to the very ... meat of your argument, that of unbelief and doubting and the Lords own words. To be honest I still wrestle with them, how to make sense of them in so many matters such as this very one under discussion.

This is not a war or winning an argument, last man (post) standing, brother this is not that kind of site though it may give off that unfortunate appearance at times. We are decidedly after the truth, a challenge shouldn't make anyone pack up their tents and go ...

Perhaps it was too heavy handed in places and perhaps you are not so arrogant after all. You are free to express yourself and detach as well, for the sake of those here reading into these things and for trying to get back to Dirks original questions there is just as much speaking in generalities as anything, it's challenges to all our thinking, first my own.

It seems only right that some contrasting is done - What of suffering?

[i]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.[/i] 1Pe 4:19

There it is again, [i]according to the will of God[/i] - It is also God's will that some should suffer. Some even rejoiced;

[i]And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.[/i] Act 5:41

This after first being beaten.

The poor, do they not suffer? The hungry, are they not also sick due to malnutrition? Jesus fed the masses but did they not become hungry again in the days following? What was His purpose for doing the things that He did?

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead only for him to die again, all those He healed eventually lost their healings - It is quite impossible to believe that healing is [i]always[/i] the will of the Lord and more accurate to say that it is [i]always[/i] the Lords will that men shall die and die in their sins if they do not repent.

If this premise was accurate it is met with a great problem; You are 90 years old and already pushing the 'limit' that God also said is the allowable span of human creature life. You have both the faith and the 'gift' of healing, some sickness broods down upon you because one of your organs is failing. You stir up that gift and that faith and declare "[i]It is always the Lords will to heal![/i]" And so you are healed ... this time. How many times can it be repeated? Ad naseum? Into infinity- [i]always[/i]?

Certainly it is ridiculous. The reason for going to such extremes is to simply point out the fallacy of the argument - it cannot stand up to the weight of scrutiny.

[i]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?[/i] Joh 21:18-23

"[i]If I will[/i] ..."

It's interesting you mention this, because this morning while taking a shower I was thinking about death (I know, I know - big surprise for a mortician to be thinking about death while taking a shower), and how it might be fair for the proponents of the God "always" mindset to apply their theology to physical death the same why they do physical sickness.

:-) Well I know we have had a few conversations about this mighty subject brother and ironically was thinking the same thoughts in the shower as well, but that is not uncommon, am often thinking about death - still may yet give a shot at writing that book some day ...

Listened to a couple of randomly selected messages from Art Katz yesterday, had the rare opportunity to do so while painting at work. It was interesting as one was apparently quite a but older, around the time of forming Ben Israel and the other fairly more recent. His voice and inflections were different, the sense of a different disposition, the little nuances and so forth. But these still managed to be directed towards this matter though they were not on the subject of healing.

The older of the two;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=5048]The Cost of Discipleship[/url]

[b]Scripture(s)[/b]: [i]Acts 16:6- 9[/i]

[b]Description[/b]: The spirit of glibness, instantaneous experiences and gratification, and superficiality has entered our spiritual lives. This message gives us the pattern of God’s way with His servants in the world. God’s Spirit not only leads, but also to give us a check. The Lord is leading us to a relationship that we will know His voice and when He speaks, we will go. We must crucify our flesh, our fears, and just follow Him. Art gives examples both from his own life and Scripture of the Spirit of God leading.

The thrust stems from the account in Acts; [i] but the Spirit suffered them not.[/i] Or as I believe he was using the ASV; [i]having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;[/i] And the comparisons with the general scope of preaching the gospel to every creature, "Are we not to go and preach the gospel to everyone?" The parallel to 'always'. "Is this not a contradiction of His own word?" Much more to this message than just this - grasping intuition, even the smile that was brought about when he talked of the earlier years of 'hearing' the Lord speaking more commonly and how as time and understanding went on the less frequent this and even the fright of standing up to speak and sensing nothing of the Holy Spirit at all - The 'knowing' business.

The other and more recent;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10778]The Mysteries of the Faith[/url]

[i]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/i] Eph 6:12

He starts off noting the word repeated five times; [i]against[/i] and emphasizes it. It is interesting to take this really to heart, the tendency is to overlook it, realized I had in fact done just that in part - Not [i]men[/i] but as the text suggests. He manages to stay within the bounds of not overdoing it where some have gone to seed with which demon is controlling this area and that sort of thing but appeals to the atmosphere for instance when one travels to a foreign country and notices the difference just crossing the border, "something in the air". Much more could be said but it appeals back to the sovereignty of God and even further just what the church is as a spectacle to these powers and principalities. The wisdom of God in confounding even what we might think is prudent or even His will and being mistaken, motivation wise aside - I took it back to the idealism of 'always' just as well. Two wisdoms, the wisdom of God and the wisdom of this world, two moral orders. The lack of eternity mindedness. Great message.

Long in the tooth .. again - and have driven this peg probably farther down than is necessary.

What is the Lords will? Is it specific and general only or is it ... dare I say situational? It seems beyond those things we do know that the later is in fact the case. I recall somewhere along the line grasping the notion that when we know the Lord truly we will not be asking for things He will not give us. In other words taking Joh 14:14 - [i]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.[/i] has less to do with either asking or the thing itself and far more to do with all that is encompassing in [i]My Name[/i]. So out goes presumption and try as I might to dislodge myself here from it, so goes [i]always[/i] with it.

Still, for all that - how do we get around, a better word is needed ... how do we get faith and presumption sorted out? There is this sort of hedging I must admit especially with the abuse of such things as WOF doctrine so rampant that makes it difficult to even broach the subject. What about the very real aspect of just not believing, of doubting? James again comes to mind and has now for some time;

[i]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.[/i] Jas 1:5

But!

[i]But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.[/i] Jas 1:6

For ...

[i]For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.[/i] Jas 1:7

Due to ...

[i]A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.[/i] Jas 1:8

This very section has been challenging me greatly of late, perhaps the last couple of months - I keep coming back to it. Lord, grant me wisdom for _______ and yet it seems to allude and though I know the response, there I am doubting after all! Well go figure ... No wonder I seem to be lost and tossed and ... double minded, unstable. So it seemed to dawn on me that I needed to settle this, quit trying to figure it out (Katz comes back into mind here, speaking of "Is it you Lord or is it me, or the [i]debble[/i]?" and how we can just stagnate right there) and just get on with it. Strange how not so much things calmed down as [i]I calmed down[/i] not shortly thereafter. Slow learner ...

So how does this same sort of thing play into what the Lord said about asking and how does it play out in the realm of healing or even deliverance? What about the [i]gift[/i] of faith? I am not at all interested in how to get out of such a dilemma as to get into the depths of it.

Here is what I had in mind in relation to and for Josh's defense as I agree with him in great part. This challenge of faith, from George Mueller;

[b]Clearing the Fog.[/b]

Charles Inglis, the well-known evangelist, relates the following remarkable incident:
“When I first came to America thirty-one years ago, I crossed the Atlantic with the captain of a steamer who was one of the most devoted men I ever knew; and when we were off the banks of Newfoundland he said to me: ‘Mr. Inglis, the last time I crossed here, five weeks ago, one of the most extraordinary things happened that has completely revolutionized the whole of my Christian life. Up to that time I was one of your ordinary Christians. We had a man of God on board, George Mueller, of Bristol. I had been on that bridge for twenty-two hours and never left it. I was startled by someone tapping me on the shoulder. It was George Mueller.

“‘Captain,’ said he, ‘I have come to tell you that I must be in Quebec on Saturday afternoon.’ This was Wednesday.

“‘It is impossible,’ I said.

“‘Very well, if your ship can’t take me God will find some other means of locomotion to take me. I have never broken an engagement in fifty-seven years.’

“‘I would willingly help you, but how can I? I am helpless.’

“‘Let us go down to the chart room and pray,’ he said.

“I looked at this man and I thought to myself, ‘What lunatic asylum could the man have come from? I never heard of such a thing.’

“‘Mr. Mueller,’ I said, ‘do you know how dense this fog is?’

“‘No,’ he replied, ‘my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life.’

“‘He went down on his knees, and he prayed one of the most simple prayers. I thought to myself, ‘That would suit a children’s class, where the children were not more than eight or nine years of age.’ The burden of his prayer was something like this: ‘O Lord, if it is consistent with Thy will, please remove this fog in five minutes. You know the engagement You made for me in Quebec for Saturday. I believe it is Your will.’

“When he had finished, I was going to pray, but he put his hand on my shoulder and told me not to pray.

“‘First,’ he said, ‘you do not believe God will do it; and, second, I believe He has done it. And there is no need whatever for you to pray about it.’

“I looked at him, and George Mueller said this: ‘Captain, I have known my Lord for fifty-seven years and there has never been a single day that I have failed to gain an audience with the King. Get up, Captain and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone.’ I got up, and the fog was gone. On Saturday afternoon George Mueller was in Quebec.”

[url=http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2008/02/two-amazing-accounts-of-george-mueller.html]puritanfellowship.com[/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps the answer is right here.

Frank, one thing about the incidence of the Roman centurion is that it is only one of 2 places in the Gospels where Jesus commented on the person's “great” faith. In fact, it says the Jesus marveled at it, and He hadn't encountered such great faith, even in Israel! So out of all the people Jesus met in his earthly ministry, you could probably say no one had more faith then this man.

If that faith exists, then wherever that one is, there should be no cripples? Agreed?

So to answer your question if I agree that if one had the faith of the centurion there would be no crippled people, I would have to say that right now I don't know. I think the evidence in this case that I've seen is inconclusive.

Mike I'll continue this with you a little while longer. On the issue of suffering, I have no doubt that we all will suffer to some degree. However, we disagree on what role sickness plays in suffering. Look at what Paul went through:

From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one

Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;

in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness--

I think we would all agree that is suffering. But absent from that is chronic disease, chronic or acute sickness. See, I'm not claiming it is always God's will to heal because I just decided one day it was, or I have a special revelation, or someone talked me into it. I believe it's always God's will because when I look in the Gospels I see Jesus always healing. Frank said, and I agree, that Jesus only did what he saw the Father direct. Yet I never see anywhere that Jesus was directed to not heal someone. In fact, Jesus never even had to stop and pray to find out Father's will about healing a certain person. As I see it, there is one reason why he didn't: he already knew that Father's will was for that person was to get healed.

I believe a 90 year old man could in fact receive healing and have a well functioning body through Jesus healing him. Again, I don't see why someone has to go from a heart attack or some other health problem. Read how FF Bosworth died.

So what is God's will? I believe, in this case, it is shown in the Bible, as Jesus always heals. I didn't always believe that. I used to believe He had bigger things to worry about, or I had to get my act together, or learn something, or, or, or...But my experience with healing has changed much since my thinking on this has changed, as have people I know that have had the same change in theology.

Frank, one thing about this subject: There is a big difference between chasing miracles, and trying to get a need met. What I'm doing is trying to show people that God wants to meet that need.

One last thing

In Matthew 14, we have one of the most famous miracles of the Bible.

Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea.

And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear.

But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid."

And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water."

So He said, "Come."And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

So it was the sovereign will of God that Peter walk on the water with Christ. It was the right time, the right purpose. This was God's will for Peter at this situation.

But when he saw that the wind was boisterous,he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"

But Peter began to sink. Why? Why would Peter begin to sink? Did God's sovereign will for Peter suddenly change? Did God have to keep Peter humble?

And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

NO, it was because of Peter's little faith and doubt.

So my question, and I would really love to hear your answers: Could it be that God might sovereignly want to heal us, to fix what is broken in our bodies, but because of our little faith and doubt, we, like Peter, don't get what God wants us to have?

Dirk,

I started reading this thread, having ignored it earlier because I know from experience on SI how involved it can get. And you get nowhere because deep questions still remain.

Healing: we all want it when ill. Sickness all began when man sinned in the garden. On its heels came death - you cannot separate the two. All the people Jesus healed supernaturally ended up dying. Death is coming for all unless the LORD returns before it happens.

One can believe in divine healing and still die: "because it is appointed unto man once to die" and we do not know when that appointment is. It is instinct that we do all we can to survive and this is good.

Brother, we had a daughter that got brain cancer (glioblastoma) and she died. She was 25 YO and had two small children - a 26 month old and a 9 1/2 month old, plus a husband. We prayed, she was anointed with oil three times, and we believed the LORD to heal her. He did, bit he allowed her to go into the realm of eternity to experience it.

Personally, God healed my emotions in dealing with this loss. Today, I am glad she is there, am glad she does not have to deal with the mess the world is in on the personal level. I could detail what the LORD has done for us through this experience but will refrain from it at this moment.

What I think is the greater issue propelling this question is that people are afraid to die! And why so? Think about it! PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO DIE!

Have you seen people die? I have seen it three times: our daughter, my MIL and Dad. Solomon says it well: Eccles. 7:2 (NASB) It is better to go to a house of mourning Than to go to a house of feasting, Because that is the end of every man, And the living takes it to heart. v. 14: In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider--God has made the one as well as the other So that man will not discover anything that will be after him." Read this entire chapter: it will provide you with a longer view of life and God's sovereignty over it. And you will be blessed. And perhaps, the greater issue answered. Oh, and read Job: he was confronted with the same questions raised on this forum. His friends were physicians so their observations and questions are worth considering. If you weary of reading through all those philosophical wranglings, go to the end and read what the conclusion of the matter was.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi Josh, thanks for being patient and gracious. I have some misgivings for the manner and lack of restraint in spots. Forgive me. Some of the old haunts if you will bring back to mind the abuse and manipulations ...

There is probably no way to make a clean delineation with this so probably a bit of both;

[i]See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.[/i] Deu 32:39

I know there was a mention prior about not using the OT and I am not exactly sure how you view matters as distinct one from the other (as in the NT). Not to put words in your mouth but this is often a mistake with many - dispensationalism being just one. But I don't want to get bogged down there ... only don't forget how often the disciples and even the Lord appealed to the OT scriptures, [i]it is written[/i].

In John 12 Jesus is telling the people what death He must die and alludes to Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. He speaks of "believing in the light" and at length John states;

[i]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:[/i] Joh 12:37

Much more could be said right at that juncture but he goes on, quoting Isaiah;

[i]That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/i] Joh 12:38-40

John is stating that this is a fulfilling of that prophecy. It is interesting to note [i]they could not believe (because) [b]He[/b] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart[/i]. It's a difficult passage as are others earlier alluded to, Paul again comes to mind;

[i]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted [b]his will[/b]?[/i] Rom 9:19

And I would take this also back to Deuteronomy above. Gods will and sovereignty. Tucked right square into the midst of all this is indeed the matter of believing but does one therefore spell the other? In other words is the criteria [i]only believe[/i] and everything is ready to be bestowed upon the asking; healing, gifts, finances, right on out into the very extrapolated abuses of WOF and like constructs? It is a very tight point and one that I am at pains to exemplify in a greater more general understanding. It [i]seems[/i] to allude your very efforts of application towards healing and what Jesus did while walking this earth (and beyond) but bare with me, I want to come back to that as well. Some commentary continuing from Paul's exclamation above;

[i]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i] Rom 9:20

[b]Rom 9:20 -
Nay but, O man ...[/b] - To this objection the apostle replies in two ways; first, by asserting the sovereignty of God, and affirming that he had a right to do it Rom_9:20-21; and secondly, by showing that he did it according to the principles of justice and mercy, or that it was involved of necessity in his dispensing justice and mercy to mankind; Rom_9:22-24.

[b]Who art thou ...[/b] - Paul here strongly reproves the impiety and wickedness of arraigning God. This impiety appears,

(1) Because man is a creature of arraigning God. This impiety appears, Because man is a creature of God, and it is improper that he should arraign his Maker.

(2) he is unqualified to understand the subject. “Who art thou?” What qualifications has a creature of a day, a being just in the infancy of his existence; of so limited faculties; so perverse, blinded, and interested as man, to sit in judgment on the doings of the Infinite Mind? Who gave him the authority, or invested him with the prerogatives of a judge over his Maker’s doings?

(3) even if man were qualified to investigate those subjects, what right has he to reply against God, to arraign him, or to follow out a train of argument tending to involve his Creator in shame and disgrace? No where is there to be found a more cutting or humbling reply to the pride of man than this. And on no subject was it more needed. The experience of every age has shown that this has been a prominent topic of objection against the government of God; and that there has been no point in the Christian theology to which the human heart has been so ready to make objections as to the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.

[b]Repliest against God[/b] - Margin, “Answerest again; or, disputest with God.” The passage conveys the idea of answering again; or of arguing to the dishonor of God. It implies that when God declares his will, man should be still. God has his own plans of infinite wisdom, and it is not ours to reply against him, or to arraign him of injustice, when we cannot see the reason of his doings.

[b]Shall the thing formed ...[/b] - This sentiment is found in Isa_29:16; see also Isa_45:9. It was especially proper to adduce this to a Jew. The objection is one which is supposed to be made by a Jew, and it was proper to reply to him by a quotation from his own Scriptures. Any being has a right to fashion his work according to his own views of what is best; and as this right is not denied to people, we ought not to blame the infinitely wise God for acting in a similar way. They who have received every blessing they enjoy from him, ought not to blame him for not making them different.

Albert Barnes

Brother the reason for trying to hammer this all home is manifold. There are severe repercussions for taking things too far. Most of us are familiar with the reports of people dying because even though medical treatment was available it was shunned due to a similar mindset, stemming from the [i]always[/i] attributes of a misconstrued understanding. If anything, these who have gone to such lengths, have they not put their faith to the severest test of all? Shunned medicine and outside help and yet ...

It is such a vital point brother, often a matter of life and death. In the link prior to Art Katz, (the earlier of the two) he spoke of slipping in the shower area of I believe a YMCA after baptizing a number of converts ([i]With Pat Boone! A great visual for the imagination[/i]) and in effect shattering his knee. He goes on later to describe the episode after being persuaded to go the doctor after all and talks of the bones being healed right under the doctors hand (a Jewish man). The doctor tells him that if he puts it in a cast right now he could avoid surgery. Laid up afterward a nurse comes in wanting to give him an injection for the pain but he tells her that it is quite alright, that it is not needed and goes on to explain the puzzlement and even indignation of the nurse over his refusal. She comes back with pills instead and he informs her that he has no fear of needles having been in the Army and punctured multiple times but that he can endure this light affliction and does not want his conscience affected\\manipulated- clouded by some drug and tells his hearers that he hopes that they would have similar concerns. His point was regarding the wisdom of this world and their adamancy of how things are to be done, fixed etc. All that to point out that this is a reoccurring sentiment throughout all his years of preaching, it comes up often - not even taking aspirin to dull the pain I have heard him say. But [i]always[/i]? It must have pained him more severely than the diseases that ultimately took him home to have been hooked up to machines and pumped full of all sorts of drugs in the end. I can say that with a certainty from his character, mentions and disposition but none of this has to do with doubt or unbelief at all. There is hardly anyone I know that stressed the sovereignty of God more than this man of God even to the point where some have accused him of taking even that itself too far - But he was not unrealistic nor a doubter, he believed and taught that everything come from the hands of a benevolent and loving father, His trust I am assured was fully upon the Lord come what may.

Brother, the accounts of Jesus and His healing are not in dispute. That they were recorded as such I do not see as anything other than that which was chosen to be reported, as instanced;

[i]And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/i] Joh 20:30,31

As it states, there are even more that haven't even been told but why were they recorded? It tells us why. But I think this is where the error in thinking comes in. In three years of ministry a great deal must have happened and occurred, look back over your own life for the last three years what has transpired since then? I think that it is often a misnomer of how short the Lords ministry on earth was, though it is in comparison to full age it is easy to miss just how long three years truly is.

If the writers of the New Testament only recorded the healing's that does not necessarily translate that this was always the case but again [i]that you might believe[/i]. It is actually an answer from silence to state otherwise.

It seems the will and desire, the mercy and love of the Lord can be misconstrued. I would appeal back to Richard Baxter on the first page of this post, that even sickness can be a mercy. Even in my own life I can attest to this.

[i]Misunderstand not sickness, as if it were a greater evil than it is; but observe how great a mercy it is, that death has so suitable a harbinger or forerunner: that God should do so much before he takes us hence, to wean us from the world, and make us willing to be gone; that the unwilling flesh has the help of pain; and that the senses and appetite languish and decay, which did draw the mind to earthly things: and that we have so loud a call, and so great a help to true repentance and serious preparation! I know to those that have walked very close with God, and are always ready, a sudden death may be a mercy; as we have lately known divers holy ministers and others, that have died either after a sacrament, or in the evening of the Lord's day, or in the midst of some holy exercise, with so little pain, that none about them perceived when they died. But ordinarily it is a mercy to have the flesh brought down and weakened by painful sickness, to help to conquer our natural unwillingness to die.[/i]

Ever have the flu or a cold and recognize how your senses seem sharpened, that there is a clearing of the thoughts, a recognition of what is truly important? I am not suggesting this is some kind of ideal to be sought after ... I am amazed looking back over my clumsy life just why it is the Lord has keep this fool alive. I have fallen in a mighty crash of scaffolding from 20 feet and sustained only a fractured rib, why was I not impaled? Suddenly I am reminded of;

[i]And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.[/i] Mat 4:6,7

Does this not have a great deal of bearing here?

I should have been dead at 16 from alcohol poisoning in a foolish episode. Have been on the very brink of death from some type of aneurysm or speeding up of the heart rate from abusing drugs, speed namely. Have crashed a moped and fell within inches of having my head ran over by a friends Mustang. Rolled a truck by falling asleep at the wheel with a two year old and my girlfriend inside, that coupled with drinking before hand.

So my question, and I would really love to hear your answers: Could it be that God might sovereignly want to heal us, to fix what is broken in our bodies, but because of our little faith and doubt, we, like Peter, don't get what God wants us to have?

Truthfully, I think absolutely it is true that our faith is often too little and our doubting too great. I want that same faith as George Mueller had and I do not want in any way for any of this to be misconstrued, that by bringing forth all this examination that the inference is to suggest or put doubt into any ones head. Far be it from me to do so.

I do not believe however that it is also [i]always[/i] doubt and unbelief that are the reasons for healing not to be given, that it is just as dangerous to infer or presume as much.

If I could add another way of looking at this. Our present health for those of us who have it. Are we as aware and grateful for that which we do have? The great mercies we are already under to be able to discuss these things from afar without the troubles and difficulties that even our silent members may be undergoing? It is very easy to discuss and suppose and give our opinions, even share our experiences but I know there are saints out there with great faith that in Gods permissive will are under going things for reasons not told them nor us.

Hello all, I just came upon this thread and am interested in how any of you would interpret the following passages:

"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases"
Psalms 103:2-3

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
James 5:14-16

One thing that I notice concerning the first passage in Psalms is that it says he heals all our diseases. The word in Hebrew is "kol" and it means just that--"all". It doesn't say instantaneously, nor does it say you won't have to suffer. But reading this plain and simply, keeping in mind many other verses of Scripture similar to this one, it is easy for me to conclude that God can and [i]does[/i] heal us of all our diseases. Would it be wrong to stand firmly on this promise if one gets sick? Why is it that people find it easy to believe that He forgives our sins, but they can't believe He heals our diseases?

And what about the second passage? It seems pretty clear to me from James that the prayer of faith [i]will[/i] save the sick, and if he have commited any sins, they will be forgiven. How can you reason your way out of that one? I am asking an honest question, not trying to debate or anything.

(Btw I am not an advocate of WoF by any means, but I do see that there is some truth to what they say. Otherwise it would not be so appealing! Satan's method is always to twist a TRUTH from the Word of God, he's done it in the Garden of Eden and all throughout Scripture. That's what heresy is, part truth mixed with lies. We need to be careful about not jumping to the other extreme, imho. I believe we should be claiming God's promises everyday and trusting them and praying according to them without wavering, because we know when we pray according to His promises we are praying according to His will, therefore He will grant us our petitions. So, not trying to be irreverent at all, but it is kind of like "name it and claim it" in a sense...maybe to clean up the language a bit it would be "praying God's promises through". Or how about that "positive confession" stuff--there's some truth in there because we constantly should be reminding ourselves of who we are in Christ, like Paul does in Ephesians 1-3.
Just some thoughts...)

And what about the second passage? It seems pretty clear to me from James that the prayer of faith will save the sick, and if he have commited any sins, they will be forgiven. How can you reason your way out of that one? I am asking an honest question, not trying to debate or anything.

Simply put, "so it is written, so it shall be done"_And going back to James 5:14-16, we may ask these things:

Who are the ELDERS of the church?
What is PRAYER OF FAITH?
What is a RIGHTEOUS MAN?

Do we need a revival in these areas? One may think that by restoring biblical eldership(which among other qualities has a prayer of faith and is a righteous man), we will see fewer of those 'healings scams' that bring shame to Christianity.

Do the qualities of eldership develop overnight through a one shot spiritual outpouring or do they develop primarily through the years of faithful walk with our Lord.

Could it be better, especially in our generation, to call for healing through church elders rather than depend much on those 'super gifted individuals'.

Hi all, sort of stumbled accross this thread via google whilst looking for something else, so please excuse me if i repeat something.....

Some of u were saying that the atonement is only spiritual!! What about:
Mat 8:16 And evening coming on, they brought to Him many who had been possessed with demons. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick
Mat 8:17 so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, "He took on Himself our weaknesses and bore our sicknesses."

- also, This HEALING cannot refere to our spirits, because our spirits were not Wounded!!! - they were DEAD!!!
we have been made alive in Christ.... we were DEAD in our sins....
We are RE-born and RE-generated.... not simply "Healed" of our spiritual wounds. we must get that.
We cannot allow the Devil to continue to Decieve us to live short of the abundant life that Jesus died to give us all. Healing is in the atonement!!
When we view and interperate Scripture through our EXPERIENCE, we are heading down a dangerous road.
If we dont belive what God said about himself: that he is Good, and "he delights to do us good", and he "WILL NEVER CEASE TO DO US GOOD" - Jer 32,
we will start to believe that he makes us sick to teach us to be beter people!! If one believes that, they dont understand the Goodness of their Father who delights to gives good gifts, and they have not fully seen the GOOD NEWS of the NEW Covenant.
It is the Devil who has come to Rob, Kill and destroy!!

Jesus told us that ALL Authority in Heaven (Spiritual) and on earth (Pysical) has been given to him, and He commissions us to go out to undo the works of Satan.....

Mat 10:7 And as you go, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.

and then:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 THEREFORE go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, WHATEVER I COMMANDED YOU. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

You see, if we dont realise our God Given authority, we will be beging and pleading for God to heal the sick......... But He has already given us the authority to do so.
I think we can become so caught up with all the excuses of our failed experience, that we have watered down the Great Commision, as said, " Surely Jesus meant something else when he said "heal the sick"
The world links disobediance to Failure, The bible links Obediance to rewards. Sometimes we may not step out incase we fail..... but God calls us to step out regardless. Our Faithfulness is not based on results, its based on your obediance to the commision. Our task is to obey and step out - Gods delight is to be with us as we do so, and back up your faithfullness with signs, wonders and miracles.

We can get caught up with doctrines and theologies and not ever leave our computers, or we can get off our buts and get caught up in the arms of God and tell the world the good news of his grace.

hope this doesnt come across like im angry - cause im not, ive just been stuck in traditional, powerless, unbelieving, same old - same old Christianity for too long, but thanks be to God, we are not beginning mare and more to live the dream.
We are seeing in increasing measure the sick being instantly healed!! - a cancer disolve!! broken bones mend during worship, deaf ears open,deamons comming our of people and most importantly, the lost coming to know Jesus. But it is a crying shame that we only embraced the Saving aspect of the atonement (and YES!!!, that in itself is glorious and everything else is utterly insignificant without it!!) for so long and live short of fullness that he intended for his Church.

P.S. Start with the Explicits revealed in Scripture, and interperet the Narratives with those lenses on. Dont make doctrine based on Narratives - dangerous ground.
Would be delighted to field any questions...

Love
Andrew