i have been searching many years on the scriptures that many faith preachers of this day use to say that Jesus was dead spiritually on the cross and died spiritually and went and took the keys of hell and death from the devil in hell. they teach this had to happen and that it was not finished on the cross but in Jesus dying spiritually and going to hell to defeat the devil. i have studied as much as i can find on this and i do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus' death was spiritual. i would like to know more info from well established men of God who have seached this all the way through . i would like to know what people think about those who see Jesus' death as a spiritual one, of those hardlined preachers that do and the reasons why you think they adhere to this doctrine . to me it seems to take away from what the atonement really is and makes Jesus out to be just a mere man and not God. i have listened to the preachers that teach this and i still do not find it in scripture when i have diligently searched to find where they come up with this, spiritual death of Christ doctrine that is so prevailent.
did Jesus really die spiritually
You might would want to start with:
E.W. Kenyon's " Identification-A Romance in Redemption"-chapter 5 " We died with Him".
All I will say for now is: Jesus in scripture is called the second/last Adam
Well, the first Adam, his first death was spritual, then physical. God said the day you eat from this tree you shall surely die-well Adam did die that day spiritually-Jesus, being the last Adam went through this same type of process-Jesus was sinless, yet for him to become sin, or when he did in fact become sin-that was his spiritual death to ENABLE him to be able to EVEN die physically. Christ had to take on death spiritually first, for him to even be able to taste natural/physical death for 3 days-because he blood was that sinless, that pure, and so was his spirit (I refer to his human spirit)
Just like Adam could not die physically, without first dying spiritually-so was Christ. Adam had a body without sin, but I think seldom we forget that Christ came to earth in the same bodiy state as Adam. Both had MIRACOULOUS births-to never be mimicked throughout the rest of time. Adam came directly from the hands of God without a womb, and Christ came into this earth through the womb of a virgin without a natural man.
E. W. Kenyon starts the 5th chapter of Identification off like this:
Jesus died twice on the cross.
The rest, I will leave for you to read. Kenyon doesn't teach that Christ's death was ONLY spiritually, he does teach in fact that there was both a spiritual & physical death which both in fact were temporary.
Hope this helps.
I think it comes from this verse
2 Cor 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Some interperate that to mean Jesus died Spiritually
What you're really asking is could God die??
NO. That which is eternal is immortal.
Jesus was and is divine and eternal. His
self could die, His flesh could perish; but
His Spirit and His life are eternal!!
Just as Physical death is the seperation of the spirit from body - [b]Eccl 12:7[b]James 2:26
So is Spiritual death is a severed relationship between God & man or the seperation of the spirit from God.
Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My [b]God[b]God
This is when Jesus was separated from God which is spiritual death. Jesus does not call His Father "God", only sinners do.
Jesus recieved Spiritual life again when Jesus called out with a loud voice, "[b]Father
Jesus died physically when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.
I don't agree with E.W. Kenyon on this doctrine.
Yes, Christ was separated from God while He was
made to bear our shame and sin and God's wrath
against it. The only reason He went to hell
was to bear witness that He is the Holy Son of
God who was dead and lives forevermore and has
the keys of death and hell!!
sojourner7 wrote:
I don't agree with E.W. Kenyon on this doctrine.
Yes, Christ was separated from God while He was
made to bear our shame and sin and God's wrath
against it. The only reason He went to hell
was to bear witness that He is the Holy Son of
God who was dead and lives forevermore and has
the keys of death and hell!!
Am I understanding you correctly?
You think that being in hell is spiritual death?
IF Jesus went to hell, it would have been after He gaind His relationship back with the Father as He cryed with a loud voice saying, Father...ect...".
However, being in hell is not the main thing of spiritual death, it is only the outcome.
Spiritual death is mainly a severed relationsip with with God.
Jesus mends that realitionship between us so that we may have spiritual life, which is also eternal life(John 17:3)
sojourner7 wrote:
I don't agree with E.W. Kenyon on this doctrine.[b]Yes, Christ was separated from God[/b] while He was
made to bear our shame and sin and God's wrath
against it. The only reason He went to hell
was to bear witness that He is the Holy Son of
God who was dead and lives forevermore and has
the keys of death and hell!!
To be separated from God.......is spiritual death. Thus Christ did die spiritually, as well as physically-this is the very reason he cries " my God my God why hast THOU FORSAKEN me.." before his physical death.
e .w . kenyon went to emersen college and was taught fnostism by ralf waldo trine and waldo emerson and mary baker eddy which started Christian science. kenyons viewpoints. i do not find in Scripture.
nowhere in the bible have i founr that jesus' death was a spiritual one in isaiah 53 it says he poured out his soulnot spirit in 1 cor 5: 21 in the greek it says how God viewed our sin as Jesus' . the bible says that no man speakibf by the Holy Spirit can call Jesus accursed [ anathema ]in the greek. i want to know what , if any of the old timers on here think of this and some more info to reinforce what i already believe to be true. that is from scripture and studying some of the original usages of greek and hebrew and what i know of the atonement as taught by charles finney. that Jesus did not die spiritually . i do want the truth , that can be unreprovable in any court of reason. so far all i see is a mythical spiritual death that the bible does not say happened.
clintstone wrote:
nowhere in the bible have i founr that jesus' death was a spiritual one in isaiah 53 it says he poured out his soulnot spirit in 1 cor 5: 21 in the greek it says how God viewed our sin as Jesus' . the bible says that no man speakibf by the Holy Spirit can call Jesus accursed [ anathema ]in the greek. i want to know what , if any of the old timers on here think of this and some more info to reinforce what i already believe to be true. that is from scripture and studying some of the original usages of greek and hebrew and what i know of the atonement as taught by charles finney. that Jesus did not die spiritually . i do want the truth , that can be unreprovable in any court of reason. so far all i see is a mythical spiritual death that the bible does not say happened.
The soul and the spirit are united.If he poured out his soul-then you should understand that that includes his spirit.
When God breathed the breath of life (spirit) into Adam he instantanouesly BECAME a LIVING SOUL.
i know this is where it is taught from by the believers of Jesus death being spiritual, in the since that He died spiritually. but to me this says nothing in its meaning of Jesus' spiritual death. this only Speaks of Gods viewpoint of Jesus' taking our place,,,, who knew no sin,,, does not any man have to know sin before he dies spiritually, Jesus never knew sin, that's why no one can Call Jesus anathema [accursed]
What do you define as spiritual death?clintstone wrote:
nowhere in the bible have i founr that jesus' death was a spiritual one...
I gave a definition.
Do you not agree?
If not, what is it then?
hello , sojournor7 . i do believe that it is easy to see that Jesus' death was only physical. that when all the fact of who He was is seen. i believe the devil wants to decieve as much as he can about who Jesus was and thereby undermine the effectualness of the atonement. i really want to know this thoroughly , becuase i live in tulsa, ok. where a lot of this born again man Jesus is taught on and i see this as a grave error.so i want to be as solid as scripture reveals on this. letusreason.org .. speaks much about this and judith mattas' book " the born again jesus of the word faith movement " teaches about this. i am asking here becuase i thought that some of the old timers had dealt with this issue as i believe the first century Christians did.
I am not saying Christ's death was a "spiritual one"-I am stating that Christ's death included both death spiritually and physically-that it was NOT just physical.
Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, [b]why hast thou forsaken me
clintstone wrote:
i know this is where it is taught from by the believers of Jesus death being spiritual, in the since that He died spiritually. but to me this says nothing in its meaning of Jesus' spiritual death. this only Speaks of Gods viewpoint of Jesus' taking our place,,,, who knew no sin,,, does not any man have to know sin before he dies spiritually, Jesus never knew sin, that's why no one can Call Jesus anathema [accursed]
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, [b]being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
e w kenyon was a terrible mess with his doctrine he was taught at emerson college by mary baker eddy, ralf trine , and waldo emerson. i do not agree with him either . he is where this spiritaul death of Jesus started then hagin and copeland followed him.
While Jesus died physically and was "made sin" on our behalf, Jesus did not die spiritually. Had he died spiritually, then His death would have no atoning value. It's as Peter said: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;" (1 Peter 3:18)
Had Christ died a spiritual death, then His physical death would have been justified. But because He died a physical death without a spiritual death, His death was unjustified. Therefore, God recognized Christ's death and sacrifice, and raised Him up from the dead. For as Peter says, even though Christ was put to death in the flesh, He was spiritually alive even though physically dead.
The contrast of Peter's affirmation here cannot be ignored: Christ died physically, though, alive spiritually. He was the just (spiritually alive and in right standing with God), dying for the unjust (those spiritually dead and in wrong relationship with God).
What do you define as spiritual death?
I gave a definition.
Do you not agree?
If not, what is it then?
logic , in the bible when it speaks of spiritually dead people and the outcome of such it is always refering to everlasting , eternal punishment unending eternal death. did not Jesus give His life through an eternal spirit. if spiritual death was a means of being justified. would not the scripture say, when Jesus was at the supper," take this is my spirit which is broken for you " would not Scripture be very clear on this as it is of His physical death and bleeding for us.
What do you define as spiritual death?
Spiritual death is being in wrong relationship to God. This wrong relationship is not merely a passive "lack of intimacy." Rather, it is a defiant rebellion against God ("sin is lawlessness"). It is the assertion of self against God. It is to be God's enemy ("He who is not for me is against me"). This is what makes one in "wrong" relationship with God.
Therefore, to assert that Jesus died spiritually is to assert the above things. Such is something the Scriptures never do.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: [b]for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
When Adam ate the fruit did he die " in the day" that he ate it, or some hundred of years later?
Gen 5:5 And all the [b]days
hail brother hail al hail king Jesus who was and is and is to come you have it right brother and this is an issue that needs to be addressed in my home town . i want to know of stong men in God from past history that hard addressed this very thing if any articles on this site about it. i do not see it being scripture that Jesus' death was more than in his soul and body . thanks for the input from peter very good
i will search this line out . but the bible never contadicts itself .in the new testament paul prays that the saints be preserved spirit , soul and body, Jesus was also God and no other man has ever been God , not even the first adam, as some teach. now his soul and spirit might have not had seperation from God until the day adam sinned.
Where did you get your definition?KingJimmy wrote:What do you define as spiritual death?Spiritual death is being in wrong relationship to God. This wrong relationship is not merely a passive "lack of intimacy." Rather, it is a defiant rebellion against God ("sin is lawlessness"). It is the assertion of self against God. It is to be God's enemy ("He who is not for me is against me"). This is what makes one in "wrong" relationship with God.Therefore, to assert that Jesus died spiritually is to assert the above things. Such is something the Scriptures never do.
What Scriptures?
Seems that your definition of spiritual death is more of an action("Rather, it is a defiant rebellion against God")
If one know that physical death is only seperation:[b]Eccl 12:7[b]James 1:26
We see physical death being a separation, we must conclude that spiritual death is nothing more.[b]Isa 59:2
Where did you get your definition?
What Scriptures?
I quoted Scripture already. Do you really need me to get chapter and verse? The state of being spiritually dead is being at antimony with God. As Jesus said, "He who is not for Me is against Me." Such is a disposition. And such a dispostion can only come from somebody who is spiritually dead.
Seems that your definition of spiritual death is more of an action("Rather, it is a defiant rebellion against God")
No. It's a spiritual dispostion. "Action" (sins) are merely the outworking of of sin & death (inward dispostion).
when He , Jesus cried my god my God why hast thou forsaken me . i believe this is where isaiash was prophetically calling attention to this in ch 53 when it says there that Jesus poured out His soul onto death. this did not include His spirit He was speaking from His souls seperation as a man . not as God that He also was and is and is to come. He was delivered from death ,in that He feared and was heard of God and that was when He prayed in the garden with strong cryings and tears and sweat drops of blood. this is in hebrews
What do you mean "The state of being spiritually dead is being atKingJimmy wrote:Where did you get your definition?
What Scriptures?I quoted Scripture already. Do you really need me to get chapter and verse? The state of being spiritually dead is being at antimony with God. As Jesus said, "He who is not for Me is against Me." Such is a disposition. And such a dispostion can only come from somebody who is spiritually dead.
antimony is a brittle, lustrous, white metallic element occurring in nature.
Unless you mean enmity.
IOW, if one is hostle toward God, he is spiritualy dead.The state of being spiritually dead is being at antimony with God.
IOW, the enmity with God causes the severed relationship.As Jesus said, "He who is not for Me is against Me." Such is a disposition. And such a dispostion can only come from somebody who is spiritually dead.
Am I right?
No. It's a spiritual dispostion. "Action" (sins) are merely the outworking ofSeems that your definition of spiritual death is more of an action("Rather, it is a defiant rebellion against God")
What is "
Did you get that from Rom 8:2?
Where do you get that "sin & death" are an inward dispostion?
Just trying to understand.
Unless you mean enmity.
Yes, that's what I meant :-)
IOW,
I'm not sure I know what this acroynm stands for? So, please explain so I can better respond to your posts :)
hi,for Jesus to die spiritually ;God would have had to stop being God. the idea is insane. jimp
IOW = In Other Words
8-)
i do not believe the bible anywhere states that Jesus' death was anything other than physical. it also seems to imply, by preaching that He did die spiritually to make Him who knew no sin to become anathema [ accursed ] and that is not what cor 5: 21 is saying. i think this messes with the atonement. the atonement is the paramount , most needed event in history and in all of heaven and earth. to show forth Gods great love for us and the just desert of punishment for sin. for Jesus to have suffered the amount we were supposed to would be for him to still be in hell . Jesus satisfied God by going to the cross and on the cross ,, IT WAS FINISHED " not in the belly of the earth, not in hades. Jesus told the thief He would be with him that day in paradise not in hell somewhere. jimp do you know of any material or books that address this other than the ones i have mentioned . Christians that i love here in tulsa ok. need help in seeing this.i am glad that yo see it is nonsence ... i am asking for anyone to show me undeniably that Jesus , according to scripture , died spiritually and had to wrestle the keys of hell and death from the devil in hell somewhere for us to be justified.
hello , logic i appreciate your input, the thing that i am searching for is more info on solidifying my position further , from the scriptures, that for Jesus to have died Spiritually would go against much of what Jesus said of Himself and go against much of what paul and others taught of the atonement . the atonement is a covering , an exchange, it is not according to the law of sin , meaning it was not an eye for an eye , or in this case a spirit that was alive to become dead { Jesus']so that ours that was dead to god could became alive . this is what the spiritual death thing teaches , andd it does not add up. and through all my studies , i know the bible fits all of our nature and relations it fits perfectly with all , and all.
This teaching concerning Jesus dying spiritually is a heresy.
This teaching says that Jesus in order to redeem us took the nature of satan, went to hell, and was born again in hell. It takes away from the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Jesus was made to be sin in His soul, but His spirit remained pure and holy. When Jesus died He comitted His spirit to the Father. This JDS teaching says that the Father didn't receive Jesus because He was made sin, so He had to suffer in hell for us. Jesus suffered on the cross for us, and not in hell.
Mike
hello , abideinHim , i do believe this is gross heresy. i believe that this goes a lot deeper into heresy than most realise. i am searching for more info on the truth and heart of this false teaching . i have only found one book on this and it is " the born again jesus of the word of faith teaching" . it is written by judith matta. it is very informative and also , letusreason.org , is great on teaching and sharing the truth. i am wanting to find all i can to refute unquestionable this heresy . i live in tulsa, ok. and we have so many that sperate themselves from all who do not agree with them on this line. those who believe that jesus died spiritually , act as if we who do not believe this, are crazy, and do not know much. i was hoping to be led to some sermons and teachings or more books adressing the truth on this matter and the motive behind propagating this born again jesus, that died spiritually. i personally think that this denies the deity of Jesus, and makes the jesus they speak of a false one with no real atoning value for sin.
AbideinHim wrote:
This teaching concerning Jesus dying spiritually is a heresy.This teaching says that Jesus in order to redeem us took the nature of satan, went to hell, and was born again in hell. It takes away from the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Jesus was made to be sin in His soul, but His spirit remained pure and holy. When Jesus died He comitted His spirit to the Father. This JDS teaching says that the Father didn't receive Jesus because He was made sin, so He had to suffer in hell for us. Jesus suffered on the cross for us, and not in hell.
Mike
When Jesus became sin-he died spiritually. How could God forsake him if his spirit was still pure and Holy? Do we forget that scripture says he bore our sins " IN HIS BODY"-what may I ask is inside of the body?
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins IN HIS OWN BODY on the tree,
I asked earlier-when Adam (who was sinless, and in sinless state) took and ate from the tree-God declared he would die "IN" that same day-my question is did Adam die "IN" the day-or some hundreds of years later?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for [b]in the day[b]thou shalt surely die
Gen 5:5 And all the [b]days[b]and he died.
Did Adam die that day he took from the tree? or did Adam die hundreds of years later after he ate from the tree?
To teach that Christ diedy spiritually, is NOT heresy, it is scriptural. His death was not ONLY physical, and here is a scripture:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the [b]Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world-was that spiritually or physically? Was not the Lamb slain in eternity from the foundation of the world only to when the "fullness of time came" to be carried out physically in the earth?
Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,...
1 Peter 1:19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,...
Tell me, how was the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world"?
Abideinhim, you said : " Jesus was made to be sin in his soul.
People forget that Jesus not ONLY "bore/took OUR sins"-but he himself BECAME SIN. 2 Cor 5:21For he hath [b]made him TO BE sin for us
1 Peter 2:24-Bore our sins IN HIS BODY
1 Peter 2:24-ON the cross
He bore our sins IN his body -ON the cross.
The suffering that Jesus suffered for us, was what he beared on the cross, and AFTER that in Hell-drinking the full cup of God's wrath!
Christ himself, was not afraid of the cross-as to many men have gone to the cross since Christ-to include Peter his own apostle-and Peter was crucified upside down.We are even told to carry our crosses. It was the wrath of God that Christ prayed, that if possible "be removed"-NOT THE CROSS.
Luke 22: 41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, [b]remove this CUP from me
He said "remove this cup"-not remove this cross. And the cup, as displayed in Revelation-is the wrath of God poured out without mixture.
Rev 14:10The same [b]shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation
And besides, from what I have seen in this thread, the people who are against the teaching of Jesus dying spiritually, seem to also have a belief that Jesus did not "go to hell"-but what does the Holy Writ say:
Eph 4:8 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that [b]he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Again, Abideinhim, you said: Jesus was made to be sin in His soul....
Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils [b]the breath of life; and man became a living soul
Man is a living soul: And the living soul consists of "the breathe of life"-which is the spirit. Without the "breathe of life" (the spirit) man is not a LIVING soul. Paul in 1 Cor 15 says the last adam was a "quickening spirit".
If Christ poured OUT his soul; (which he did do)-inside of the soul is the breath of life(the spirit) It was the breathe of life that enacted the soul to be living.
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Also, it is no mere coincedence that Christ gives the sign of Jonah as a sign of himself. While yes many people know that Jonah was in the "whale's belly"-many people also forget that Jonah does in fact make this statement as well, which is another fascinating reason as to why Christ would refer this to himself:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; [b]out of the belly of HELL cried I
In Matt 12:40 when Jesus said HEART of the earth, he was not merely/only refering to the grave dug a little bit under the earth-he was referring to hell itself. A common grave is not the HEART of the earth.
Jonah was thrown in the sea and he went WAY down into that sea-so far down that the "weeds wrapped round about my head" (Jonah 2:5) then went INTO the mouth of the whale, to only be swallowed further INTO the BELLY of the whale-and this is why Jesus uses the phrase " heart of the earth-because he was referring just exactly how deep, how far he himself would be going INTO the heart of the earth. Not just merely being dug 6 feet under the ground.
Jesus never became sin.BlazedbyGod wrote:When Jesus became sin-he died spiritually.
The verse your thginking of means that Jesus became a sin offering.
(1)\tThat he was literally sin in the abstract, or sin as such. No one can pretend this. The expression must be, therefore, in some sense, figurative. Nor,
(2)\tCan it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor,
(3)\tCan it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the Law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings.
(Barnes)
IOW, if one is hostle toward God, he is spiritualy dead.
Indeed, somebody who is hostile towards God is spiritually dead. However, it is my contention that one cannot be spiritually dead without being hostile towards God. So, to assert that Jesus was spiritually dead is to assert that He was at war with God in His spirit. And if this were the case, then Jesus Christ was no longer the just dying for the unjust, rather, he was simply another of many who were died and were unjust.
IOW, the enmity with God causes the severed relationship.
Good trees produce good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. It is out of the heart that fornications, thefts, murders, etc. come. It's a heart issue before it is ever an outward action, never the other way around.
Isn't "sin" an action as you just said?
Sinful actions are the manifestation of sinfulness-- a state of being.
What is "sin & death"?
Did you get that from Rom 8:2?
"Sin" and "death" are concepts traced all throughout the book of Romans. Sin is both an inward dispostion/state of being and outward action. Likewise, death is a state of being and outward action. One sins because they are born a sinner, and one is born a sinner because of the death that works in all creation, the result of Adam's fall as the head of all things, causing the corrpution of everything God created as good. Death came through sin, and sin reigns through death. It's a reciprocal relationship where both feed off eachother. These are the "laws" (principles) under which the old fallen creation operate.
However, Christ "violated" these "laws" which work in the old creation. He who knew no sin tasted death for us all. A just man died the death due only to a criminal in God's court. Thus, through His voluntary act, the old order which we were subjected to from conception was toppled. Thus, though we were sinners who sinned, and were destined to death and everlasting punishment, because of Christ's work, we have come to experience eternal life in place of the death that we once knew. And even though our bodies are still subject to die being part of the old order, we one day will see the changing of these bodies through the resurrection. Our death, like Christ's, will not be permanent.
the only scriptures you give here say in His body. Jesus in john 6:51 says" the bread which i give is My flesh ,which i shall give for the life of the world." isaiah 53:6 says " the lord the the iniquity of us all on Him . not in Him. in hebrews 10:20 the vei that was torn was His flesh. in 1 cor 12:3 paulwarns that no man can call Jesus accursed { anathema ]in the greek which means to become unredeemed. in gal3:14 when Jesus became a curse for us , the word katara from the greek root word kata and the root ara which means impreciated. as other scriptures sat that the father looked upon Jesus as He would have us. while He was on the cross shedding His blood and with rent flesh.if Christ ....became sin... then Jesus had to have been anathema [accursed] ,which is exactly what copeland and hagin and kenyon and all who believe thier report, are saying. 2cor 5:21 should be translated ; " he made Him who knew no sin, a sin offering for us." in the old testament Jesus was always represented as on offering for sin , this fit with all of scripture of Jesus being God in and also of God justification in now being able to forgive our sins becuase of the sinless sin offering, that is only Jesus' flesh and Jesus' blood. the life is in the blood and hebrews says He gave His blood through an eternal spirit . that eternal Spirit was Jesus' spirit. i cannot find where Jesus had 2 spirits in scripture.
For Jesus to have died Spiritually, then that would mean that God died Spiritually, also.
He didn't die Spiritually.
It says in John 10:30.I and My Father are one.
Just get in touch with Brother Clendenen in Beumont, TX. He is over the School of Christ.
He will tell you where to find what you are looking for.
I believe he deals with this in his dvd "Conquered by Light."
God Bless you, Brother Clint, hope you find out more info on this.
Nellie
i cannot find where , jesus says He must spiritualy die all Jesus says is take this is my body and this is my blood. nowhere does it talk of Jesus having a different Spirit than Gods Spirit . God is Jesus and Jesus is God so how Did God, which is Life and was in Jesus' blood, for the Life is in the blood , and Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, die spiritually, i cannot see how this happened by searching scripture and the original language . these scripture. you wrote up here don,t prove Jesus' death was also spiritual !! Jesus' soul was being poured out on the cross when He cried out not His Spirit. isa, 53 bears this out.
clintstone wrote:
the only scriptures you give here say in His body. Jesus in john 6:51 says" the bread which i give is My flesh ,which i shall give for the life of the world." isaiah 53:6 says " the lord the the iniquity of us all on Him . not in Him. in hebrews 10:20 the vei that was torn was His flesh. in 1 cor 12:3 paulwarns that no man can call Jesus accursed { anathema ]in the greek which means to become unredeemed. in gal3:14 when Jesus became a curse for us , the word katara from the greek root word kata and the root ara which means impreciated. as other scriptures sat that the father looked upon Jesus as He would have us. while He was on the cross shedding His blood and with rent flesh.if Christ ....became sin... then Jesus had to have been anathema [accursed] ,which is exactly what copeland and hagin and kenyon and all who believe thier report, are saying. 2cor 5:21 should be translated ; " he made Him who knew no sin, a sin offering for us." in the old testament Jesus was always represented as on offering for sin , this fit with all of scripture of Jesus being God in and also of God justification in now being able to forgive our sins becuase of the sinless sin offering, that is only Jesus' flesh and Jesus' blood.[b]the life is in the blood and hebrews says He gave His blood THROUGH an eternal spirit[/b] . that eternal Spirit was Jesus' spirit. i cannot find where Jesus had 2 spirits in scripture.
"[b]..the life is in the blood and hebrews says He gave His blood THROUGH an eternal spirit.that eternal Spirit was Jesus' spirit"
You just said it, you really should re-read this statement that you just said-
The LIFE of the flesh is IN the blood-now, let me ask you, what is the life of the blood?
What is "IN" the blood that make it the LIFE (breath) of the Flesh?
the scripture is always clear, John g. Lake said that we can test everything through the words of Jesus. Jesus made it clear what was to be given by Him {who is God} for us to be saved and it was His Flesh and His Blood. His Flesh was torn and His blood was given THROUGH AN ETERNAL SPIRIT,and that spirit was not eternal death. to be spiritually dead is eternal death,everlasting unending death. it is so easy to know the truth if you look to Jesus and His word. not hagin, copeland, dollar,hinn,kenyon, words.
Jesus was righteous-and not only righteous but sinless. Righteous/Sinless man can't die-because the wages of sin is death-speakig of Christ, " in him was no sin" he of himself "knew no sin"-but in order for him to die " He was made to be sin for us.."
The reason why Jesus's death was not eternal is because of :
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because [b]it was not possible that he should be holden of it
It was not possible for him to be HOLDEN of death-it was not possible for death to hold Christ.
Before we were saved, we were spiritually dead, (condemned already) to be receipiants of eternal death-but Christ coming and suffering for us, not only on the cross, but also in hell-we deserved, and were under eternal damnation-but Christ had to only suffer for 3 days and nights for us-though WE deserved ETERNITY IN HELL. Jesus's death upon the cross and his 3 days and 3 nights in hell was able to resuce us from a penalty of ETERNAL DAMNATION. (we did not deserve 3 days and 3 nights in damnation, we deserved Eternal damnation)But his 3 days and 3 nights was enough to satisfy God for the procuring of our salvation.
Even though, it was not possible for the pains of death to stay eternally upon Christ-for it was impossible for death to hold him-
clintstone wrote:
the scripture is always clear, John g. Lake said that we can test everything through the words of Jesus. Jesus made it clear what was to be given by Him {who is God} for us to be saved and it was His Flesh and His Blood. His Flesh was torn and His blood was given THROUGH AN ETERNAL SPIRIT,and that spirit was not eternal death. to be spiritually dead is eternal death,everlasting unending death. it is so easy to know the truth if you look to Jesus and His word. not hagin, copeland, dollar,hinn,kenyon, words.
You cannot separate the Blood of Christ from the Spirit of Christ-the scripture is clear on this. Because the Spirit testifies of/to the Blood.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. [b]And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth[b]the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one
John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The eternal Spirit of God, cannot and never die, lest how do we gain eternal life in Him. The Soul do Christ, the Body of Christ, the Blood of Christ was crucified at the Cross, this is the like the the sacrifice in the temple, a spotless lamb, offered up for the sins of His people, that they might have eternal life, and that life is in Him. If eternal life was given at the Cross, how would Jesus have the power to lay down His own life and take it up again.
The key to this life of the flesh that is in the Blood, separating it from the Spirit is in; Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Is Jesus Christ not the Word made flesh? Is not the Blood shed, which is liquid flesh, the life of the flesh that God would accept as the only atonement of perfect flesh for the sin of corruptible flesh. Even those that are to be cast into the pit, have eternal spirits which will never die.
We must separate the soul and spirit as the
Word of God says, The Word of God being the medium which does the separating, which is Christ. John 1
When we are born again, we are not born again in the soul, that is being conformed to the image of Christ, but the spirit which is separated by the Word of God is eternal and that spirit which before salvation was the spirit of iniquity, Satan's spirit, the new birth gives that spirit of corruption the boot and Incorruptable Seed of the Father is given that we become new creatures, a new creation race of God's children, which have a new Spirit the Spirit of Christ, which will never die.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Just like Christ, the body is dead because of our sin, but the Spirit is life because of His perfect righteous of the atonement of His Soul, and Body and the life of the Flesh which is our atoning sacrifice for all sin of those that believe. When the life in the blood stops moving or is all shed from the body, it separates into flesh and water. What came from the spear in the side of Christ on the Cross? John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
The life of the flesh which is the blood was dead. That is the Life given for us, who is not our living sacrifice, The Spirit of Christ in You the Hope of Glory. Amen
In Christ: Phillip
Was Jesus forsaken of the Father-yes or no?
Did Jesus have what we would call a human spirit-yes or no?
Quote:
"""Was Jesus forsaken of the Father-yes or no"""
In His soul and flesh, Yes, in Spirit, No.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
If Jesus was forsaken in the Oneness that He and His Father were in Spirit, that would mean that God forsake Himself. The only thing that was forsaken was the soul of Christ, which governed His flesh, which is divided from the Spirit by the two edged sword, He Himself being the Sword, that is what contained the sins of the flesh of the whole world, by the cup He drank into His body for the sacrifice and atonement of the whole world, in the Garden, "Yet not my will, but yours be done".
Where does it say that man has a human spirit. Man has a human soul. That is the breath of Life that God breathed into Adam, Adam chose his spirit by whom he believed the lie from.
"""Did Jesus have what we would call a human spirit-yes or no?"""
No, there is no human spirit, only the spirit of Satan or the Spirit of Christ, only that which is chosen to believe in. In that since, Yes, for Christ and His Father were One and they totally believed in each other.
"This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".
If Jesus is eternal life, and gives it to us who believe, and He could loose it, then so can we. This is where salvation is not eternal and depends on works not Grace.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In Christ: Phillip
N/A
thank you nellie . i have already established , in my own mind , by all that i have studied, that, Jesus could not have died Spiritually and to make Him to have died this way makes Jesus just a man, and in doing so, as copeland teaches thatany man before his fall could have saved the world and die as Jesus did for all sin. I have many battles ahead of me on this line here[ in tulsa] and abroad. so i am getting all the truth i can to reason with all who will listen and come out of this lie . thak you for telling me of brother Clendenen. may peace be overwhelmingly yours and fullness of Joy flood your life through the fruits of answered prayer. i feel by the spirit to tell you to ASK !!! that your JOY be full the father says to you ask. this word ask is a most assured and excellent invitation to us, who are sons of God. God bless
nowhere in SCRIPTURE was Jesus said to have been in hell 3 days and nights nowhere in scripture did Jesus die SPIRITUALLY. i know that this is hard for you to swallow because you are a hagin, copeland,adherent and for these mere men to be wrong would ruin YOUR thoughts up to now . many other peoples thoughts about this would be, shot down, in the light of real truth blessed are those who fall on this ROCK and are broken in pieces, and woe to those this ROCK falls on and crushes to powder!! hail brother let the heart of truth prevail and not what falible men say. even when multitudes follow them .
Christinyou thank you so much for your Holy Spirit filled words , i do know that Jesus could not have died spiritually, seperated from Himself,who WAS and IS and IS TO COME . yet there are so many adherents to this teaching where i live and they; for the most part, act like those who do not believe this are below thier higher level.I wish so many were not wrong and snared by this doctrine. From where i live the majority that hold to this doctrine, are not aquianted with and are not happy in the atonement that the bible speaks of. the saddest part of this whole teaching is what affects of righteousness, peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost, that it does not produce. thank you for your scriptural input ,i have though about the Blood and How the Spirit bears witness of that life, i sahll keep looking at this thank you for your Godly prospective, God Bless you , Clint. I love the fact!! that you have shown, by scripture ,here in your post, that the Living Sacrifice went all the way through BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST right into the heavenly sanctuary and sprinkled, the physical life , that was poured out ,BY HIS BLOOD, ,, on the MERCY SEAT, which is the covering, the atonement.
Christinyou,, Phillip thanks again for this post . blazedbyGod is quite adamant about this. i thank you for your input. do you know of. letusreason.org it is informative. you have given good answers here . thanks again. I will keep in touch with you . God bless you and keep you always , Clint. isaiah chapter 53 shows that Jesus poured out his soul unto death and He Himself says in John that it is His Flesh and Blood that is given. if it was to be His SPIRIT ,He would have made that clear to us , like He has made clear to us everything else that pertains to Life and Godliness.
These men that coarsely use the Spirit of Christ for their own works gain, they are unable to separate the created being form in which God created man and the New Creature in Christ which is Spirit.
An earthly birth takes a father and mother and seed of the father to create a new life, which is not a spiritual being but a flesh, bone and blood, with the breath of Life, the soul of a man that God breathed into him in his creation.
The Spirit of A man must be Spirit, and man is not a spirit being, if he was a spirit, flesh and blood, with the soul of a man, he could enter the kingdom of God.
Scripture says, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, it takes a Spiritual being to enter the kingdom and that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", Col 1:27.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Unless a kernel of corn be planted in the Ground and It die alone, it cannot produce fruit.
The Life Spirit of the Son of God could not die alone, only the Flesh and bone and blood, dies and with the New resurrected Body of Christ, which is flesh and bone, with His eternal Spirit intact could He ascend in the clouds and return in the clouds of Glory. No blood in His resurrected body for that is the life of the un- resurrected and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. That is the same body we will have in the resurrection, the dead in Christ resurrected to new bodies like His, the living in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye to have the same body like His, Flesh, Bone And the Spirit of Christ,
With our renewed soul-minds to the mind of Christ.
The blood was shed from the whipping post to the foot of the Cross, where it was poured out on the altar of the world that His death and the shedding of that sinless blood would atone for the sin of the whole world. You see that blood was not the blood of the flesh of our earthly father Adam but the perfect Blood of His Heavenly Father, that is why there was no sin in His Blood and the only reason God could accept Christ's Blood for the atonement.
The physical shedding of that blood is still upon the earth, the Seed of that Blood which is the Seed of the Father in Mary by the Holy Spirit, producing Jesus Christ the Son of God, is the atoning Seed we receive when we are born again and then and only then can we become the son's of God, perfect replicas of Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son, with all the attributes of Christ Himself, with our own soul and individuality that God made us to be as the flowers of the earth, no one being the same.
In Christ the eternal Spirit birthed in the Believer unto a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things have become new in Him.
In Him: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:"""Was Jesus forsaken of the Father-yes or no"""
In His soul and flesh, Yes, in Spirit, No.
Where does it say that man has a human spirit. Man has a human soul. That is the breath of Life that God breathed into Adam, Adam chose his spirit by whom he believed the lie from.
"""Did Jesus have what we would call a human spirit-yes or no?"""
[b]No, there is no human spirit, only the spirit of Satan or the Spirit of Christ[/b] , only that which is chosen to believe in. In that since, Yes, for Christ and His Father were One and they totally believed in each other.In Christ: Phillip
Phillip says that there is "no human spirit, only the spirit of Satan or the Spirit of Christ.."
Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the [b]spirit and power of Elias
Jesus spoke of Elijah's spirit.
Luke 1: 46 [b]And Mary said, My SOUL doth magnify the Lord, 47 AND MY spirit
Mary spoke of her soul magnifying the Lord; AND her SPIRIT rejoicing in God.
Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong [b]in spirit
Acts 7:59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive [b]my spirit
rStephen, calling upon the Lord said "receive MY SPIRIT"
The apostle Paul said:
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with [b]my spirit
1 Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and [b]my spirit
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, [b]my spirit
1 Cor 16:18 For they have refreshed [b]my spirit and yours
2 Cor 2:13 I had no rest in [b]my spirit
Phillip, is this not the human spirit-yes or no?
What spirit is Paul referring to when he says "my spirit"-it most definitely is neither the spirit of Satan, nor the Spirit of Christ-it is exactly what he calls it, " his spirit".
Gen 2:7 does not say "man has a human soul" neither does it say that God breathed soul into him, Gen 2:7 says
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath(spirit) of life; AND man BECAME a living soul.
The word for breath here is: N@shamah,nesh-aw-maw' and the definition for this word is: spirit[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05397&version=kjv]Definition for "breath" in Gen 2:7
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, [b]and spirit
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [b]spirit[b]preserved blameless
Why does he mention our WHOLE spirit, soul, and body? Because man is spirit, soul, and body.
1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, [b]and in your spirit
clintstone wrote:
[b]nowhere in SCRIPTURE was Jesus said to have been in hell[/b] 3 days and nights nowhere in scripture did Jesus die SPIRITUALLY. i know that this is hard for you to swallow because you are a hagin, copeland,adherent and for these mere men to be wrong would ruin YOUR thoughts up to now . many other peoples thoughts about this would be, shot down, in the light of real truth blessed are those who fall on this ROCK and are broken in pieces, and woe to those this ROCK falls on and crushes to powder!! hail brother let the heart of truth prevail and not what falible men say. even when multitudes follow them .
Clintstone, you are always so quick so to unscripturally say that Jesus did not go to Hell, but the Word of God is Truth, Power, and Pure.
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before [b]spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS soul was not left IN HELL[b]THIS JESUS
David way back in the Psalms prophecied that God would not leave the soul of Christ in HELL, because he would resurrect him.
You always quote that Jesus is the one WHO WAS, WHO IS, and IS TO COME-but you never finish the rest of that verse:
Rev 1:18 [color=FF0000]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of HELL and of death[/color]
quote:
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit : for theirs is the kingdom of heaven .
To start with we must break down the word pneuma, which in context is a spirit, but not a spirit that can enter the kingdom of God. It is referred to as the soul of a men.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (when speaking of) (human) it is the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, (mind, will and emotions)etc., or of(superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.
See Greek 4154
See Greek 5590
Coming from 5590: Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. psuche
Search for G5590 in KJVSL
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias , to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children , and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just ; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord .
God went before Elijah and His Spirit and power, going forth before him, Elijah is forerunner of the Spirit of Christ in us, but the spirit went before Elijah, not confirmed in Him but with Elijah, as Jesus Said, the Holy Spirit is with you and will be in you. Then the Born Again Christian has a Spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in him. And the Spirit of Satan defeated at the Cross can no longer be call our father.
Satan's spirit defeated and out, the Spirit of Christ now making the spirit of the Believer, His own Spirit.
This is not the soul mind and body that the Word of God separates with the two edged sword, dividing the soul and Spirit and even to the dividing the bone and marrow, the flesh.
The Spirit of a born again believer is not Christ. Satan now has no hold on the believer, only when the believer gives a mind to Satan can he do anything, if we don't give Satan a mind to work with he is defeated in every way. That is what the full Armour of God which every peace is Christ in the The hope of Glory. The breastplate of righteousness is Christ in us, the Helmet of salvation is Christ in us, the feet show with the preparation of the gospel of Peace, He is our Peace, etc;
yuch psuche psoo-khay'
from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
This word when rightly divided in contest, is not speaking of a spirit a man has but immortal soul, as of vitality of life, even of plants, not a spirit being.
Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
The Holy Spirit came upon her and she was with child, Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God.
Then she could say; Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
With the spirit of Christ in her, she could say and it be the truth, that: Lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Without the Spirit of Christ in her she could not say; "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. But now that Jesus Christ was in her, she could say her spirit which was Christ could rejoice.
If you rightly divide the word pneuma, which ie.
in humans means the soul of a man the life force breathed into him in the garden given him, the mind, will and emotions, smell, touch, taste, hear, see, and never able to please God, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
Quote:
"" 1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why does he mention our WHOLE spirit, soul, and body? Because man is spirit, soul, and body.
1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.""
These already were born from above and had the Spirit of Christ in them and they knew It was so, because the Spirit of Christ was evidenced in them.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The Holy Spirit is in us also and He is the one that quickens our mortal bodies by the Spirit of Christ that dwelleth in us.
Satan is a spirit, and Christ is a Spirit, and God is Spirit, and the Holy Spirit also. Which spirit are in the children of disobedience? Which Spirit is in the birthed son's of God?
Not by my spirit which is my soul-mind, but by His Spirit unto salvation and the knowing that Christ is in me, given birth by God, birthed in the believer, sealed by the Holy Spirit, where Christ is no my spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
With the Spirit of Christ in me, My soul-mind will and emotions is now in the Power of Life in Christ and By the Holy Spirit teacher making that truth real to me. John 14,15,16,17 our Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher of the things Christ says.
In Him by His Spirit in me: Phillip
again, you will not find any place in scripture that says Jesus was in hell 3 days and nights
thank you brother Phillip. that is also my dads name. i can tell you have looked much at Jesus . thank you for your timely well fitting input in this thread. they are to me," like apples of gold in pitchers of silver ".
phillip,again thank you for your time. i love to study charles finneys systematic theology
clintstone wrote:
again, you will not find any place in scripture that says Jesus was in hell 3 days and nights
So how long was he in Hell Clintstone-or will you deny what scripture says, by saying he never went to hell, as you have already said-and have been proven wrong?
How long was Jesus in Hell?
It does not appear to be scriptural that Jesus' or Adam's spirit died. And yes man is three parts spirit soul and body.
I may be wrong but I dont know where kenneth hagin ever said Jesus' spirit died.
How do you kill a spirit. It is eternal
David
1 John 3;8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
What are the works of the devil?
If one negates Jesus' decent to hell,I wonder what impact that has on one's doctrine?
Jesus told the thief on the cross "today you shall be with me in paradise"
Jesus hadnt been to heaven untill after he had risen.
David
Spirits don't die at all as in the same way bodies of flesh die.psalm1 wrote:
It does not appear to be scriptural that Jesus' or Adam's spirit died.
To die spiritualy is having the relationship[ between you & God severed.
Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death - spirit from body(Eccl 12:7, James 2:26)
Spiritual death - spirit from God(Isa 59:2)
Even the death of a marriage is the eperation of man & wife.
Many times God hides His face when sin is[b]Mic 3:4
Isa 57:17; [b]Deu 31:16[b]:17[b]I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them,
Deu 31:17-18[color=990000]Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?[/color], Deu 32:20; Eze 39:23-24, Eze 39:29; Mic 3:4.
What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Is that not His Father hiding His face?
Is that not His Father forsaking Him?
What is spiritual death, if not this?
I thought spiritual death was being referred to literally.
I guess it is a cliche
David
psalm1 wrote:
I thought spiritual death was being referred to literally.I guess it is a cliche
David
We aren't talking about Adam's or Christ spirit dying (at least that is not what I am saying), I am saying that Adam died spiritually (not that his spirit died literally) as in his relationship to God that he had with God prior to the fall-and the same for Christ when he became sin for us baring our sins IN his body on the cross.
If God hides his face from you as Logic said, then God turns his face from you-as a whole body, soul, and spirit-
Jesus said that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH, and that which is born of the Spirit(Holy Spirit) is spirit.
Philip (Christinyou) came and said that Jesus had no " my spirit"-however, scripture is clear that he did.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,[color=FF0000]Father, into thy hands I commend [b]my spirit
And we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
Whenever the scripture speak of a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, it makes the "s" lower case, but when it speaks of the Holy Spirit the "S" is always capitalized in the New Testament, and in the above scripture Luke 23:46 the "s" is lower case just like:
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, [b]receive my spirit
What "spirit" is this that Stephen is talking about? This is NOT the Holy Spirit, however, to some degree that is what Phillip was trying to tell or say to me.
Deeper than I thought.......My bad.
I see now what you are saying.
..........Interesting
Will ponder it............
David
Or, just into a grave ot tomb.BlazedbyGod wrote:And we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
That would also be a "lower region of the Earth.
he that ascedened FIRST descendedAnd we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
Capital letters and puncyuation are not inpired.Whenever the scripture speak of a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, it makes the "s" lower case, but when it speaks of the Holy Spirit the "S" is always capitalized in the New Testament, and in the above scripture Luke 23:46 the "s" is lower case just like:
The original Greek was all capital with no punctuation.
Just so we don't get confused, Jesus didn't just have a spirit, He had THEE Holy Spirit.Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
If not, there would have been two(2) Holy Spirits.
The One spirit Jesus had AND the "Original".
This is why (I think) The Holy Spirit couldn't come untill He had risen.
This is also why The Father is not
However, you are correct in that we all have a spirit and not the Spirit.
Or, just into a grave ot tomb.
Logic wrote:BlazedbyGod wrote:And we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
That would also be a "lower region of the Earth.
he that ascedened FIRST descendedAnd we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
Capital letters and puncyuation are not inpired.Whenever the scripture speak of a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, it makes the "s" lower case, but when it speaks of the Holy Spirit the "S" is always capitalized in the New Testament, and in the above scripture Luke 23:46 the "s" is lower case just like:
The original Greek was all capital with no punctuation.
Just so we don't get confused, Jesus didn't just have a spirit, He had THEE Holy Spirit.Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
If not, there would have been two(2) Holy Spirits.
The One spirit Jesus had AND the "Original".
This is why (I think) The Holy Spirit couldn't come untill He had risen.
This is also why The Father is not
However, you are correct in that we all have a spirit and not the Spirit.
Jesus ascended into (and far above) the Heavens, he descended first, yes, into earth, no, just merely "into the heart"- into the HEART OF THE EARTH.
A grave would be " in the earth"-a grave is not " in the heart of the earth"
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man [b]also died, and was buried[b]And in hell
We see the rich man was buried in the earth, but then we see him lifting up his eyes in hell. His body was buried in the grave, but his spirit/soul was in hell. Jesus did say he would be in the earth, but he said he would be in the inner most part of the earth-and that is not 6feet under ground. The grave for the rich man was being buried. The physical grave is the place of the dead bodies, hell is the grave of the spirit part of man that is damned because of sin.
Thus; what David prophecied is true:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before [b]spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left IN HELL[b]This Jesus
Paul speaking of David, clearly says that Christ's soul was not LEFT IN HELL. Christ body was in the tomb in the grave in the earth, but Christ's soul was in hell/paradise in the heart of the earth.
Quote:
"""How long was Jesus in Hell?"""
Jesus was in Hades as long as it took Him to speak the Good News of His resurrection and acknowledgement of their place in the Kingdom of God.
The body of Christ did not see corruption. Rigor-Mortis sets in with in 6 hours of death, and since the body of Christ did not see corruption as did Lazarus did, His resurrection must have been within that 6 hours. When Jesus went into Hades, He did not go their to experience Hades, He went their to preach the Good News to those that were waiting for Him.
Jesus went into Hades with all the Glory of God, resurrected, glorified, in person. Just like He appeared in the upper room with the door locked.
Just like He rose into the clouds in His Assention and seated on the Throne with His Father.
Jesus did not have to experience Hell, He is the One that made it and put it into effect.
That doctrine is purely Copeland Theology, with Hagen, Hinn, and all the other name it and claim it preachers.
His manifestation of His resurrection on the third day was to fulfill prophecy. The stone was rolled away and He was not there and had not been there, but preaching to the Saints in Hades in His Glorified and Resurrected body.
God the Father kept the soul of Jesus from being in Hades and Jesus Himself had the power to give His life and take it up again. Why would Jesus need to spend three days and three nights in Hades, save for the preaching of the Good News that He is Come, resurrected into His new body of flesh and Bone with the blood of His Flesh and Blood body shed on the Cross for those He was preaching to.
1 John 4:2-6 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
"Is Come", not has come.
Christ is come in me in my flesh also: which the Holy Spirit has quickened to contain the Son of God. Amen
Phillip
Just so we don't get confused, Jesus didn't just have a spirit, He had THEE Holy Spirit.
Logic wrote:BlazedbyGod wrote:Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
If not, there would have been two(2) Holy Spirits.
The One spirit Jesus had AND the "Original".
This is why (I think) The Holy Spirit couldn't come untill He had risen.
This is also why The Father is not
However, you are correct in that we all have a spirit and not the Spirit.
The scripture is very clear:
John 4:24 God is [b]a Spirit
Why can't we just believe what the verses say, the way they say them?
The Father is "a Spirit" as Jesus says, the Father is One Spirit, the Father is/has 7 Spirits
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the [b]seven Spirits of God
The Father is, and can be " a Spirit" -because that is the ONLY (singular) Spirit (capital S) which exists.
Ephesians 4:2-10 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
God is Spirit, Jesus Christ is also Spirit, and a given, so is the Holy Spirit.
One God and Father of us all. The Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit, of which They are One Spirit and that is the One Spirit we are baptized into. The Father and Jesus Christ making their abode with us and the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. We have the One Spirit of the Trinity in each and every believer, that is our new birth.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:"""How long was Jesus in Hell?"""
Jesus was in Hades as long as it took Him to speak the Good News of His resurrection and acknowledgement of their place in the Kingdom of God.The body of Christ did not see corruption. Rigor-Mortis sets in with in 6 hours of death, and since the body of Christ did not see corruption as did Lazarus did, His resurrection must have been within that 6 hours. When Jesus went into Hades, He did not go their to experience Hades, He went their to preach the Good News to those that were waiting for Him.
Jesus went into Hades with all the Glory of God, resurrected, glorified, in person. Just like He appeared in the upper room with the door locked.
Just like He rose into the clouds in His Assention and seated on the Throne with His Father.
Jesus did not have to experience Hell, He is the One that made it and put it into effect.
That doctrine is purely Copeland Theology, with Hagen, Hinn, and all the other name it and claim it preachers.
His manifestation of His resurrection on the third day was to fulfill prophecy. The stone was rolled away and He was not there and had not been there, but preaching to the Saints in Hades in His Glorified and Resurrected body.
God the Father kept the soul of Jesus from being in Hades and Jesus Himself had the power to give His life and take it up again. Why would Jesus need to spend three days and three nights in Hades, save for the preaching of the Good News that He is Come, resurrected into His new body of flesh and Bone with the blood of His Flesh and Blood body shed on the Cross for those He was preaching to.
1 John 4:2-6 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
"Is Come", not has come.
Christ is come in me in my flesh also: which the Holy Spirit has quickened to contain the Son of God. Amen
Phillip
The Bible is clear that Christ rose, resurrected " on the third day"- he did not resurrect before 6 hours was up.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and [b]to rise from the dead the third day
Matt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, [b]and be raised again the third day
Mt 17:23 And they shall kill him, [b]and the third day he shall be raised again
Mt 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: [b]and the third day he shall rise again
All of these verses, and many more, declare rose/resurrected " the third day"-none of them, not one of them, say he will rise again 6 hours later.
Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, [b]he shall rise the third day.
It said he would actually rise the third day-not just simply the manifestation of some pre-resurrection suppoedly 6hours after he died.
Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: [b]and the third day he shall rise again
Also I might add, I have never listened to Copland, or Hagin's theology, neither have I read any of their books or teachings, actually I have never even heard a sermon from either one of those men.
Then you don't believe what you wrote:
Quote:
"""Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost .
And we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
Whenever the scripture speak of a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, it makes the "s" lower case, but when it speaks of the Holy Spirit the "S" is always capitalized in the New Testament, and in the above scripture Luke 23:46 the "s" is lower case just like:"""
Rose on the third day is the physical manifestation of what had already happened. He went to the spirits in Hades in the Glory of His resurrection. Lest how would the spirits in Hades know it was Jesus Christ the Son of God, The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He did not need His Physical Body for that, but the resurrection power of God had already taken place that His Physical Body did not see corruption.
Jesus could move in all demention, physical and spiritual, third and forth dementions as He pleased. Through walls, when nobody would recognize who He was unless He manifest Himself to them as the Risen Christ. He could appear as a unrecognizable Spirit, or recognizable Spirit, unrecognizable flesh body or recognizable.
Even if He did not use His physical Body in the tomb, to preach to those in the lower parts of the earth, His body still did not see corruption because of the promise of the Father, but on the third He did use His Physical Body to manifest the prophecy and came forth physically in an Incorruptable body.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Then you don't believe what you wrote:Quote:
"""Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost .And we know that right after Jesus said this, he descended to the lower regions of the earth paradise/hell. As Paul said, he that ascedened FIRST descended.
Whenever the scripture speak of a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, it makes the "s" lower case, but when it speaks of the Holy Spirit the "S" is always capitalized in the New Testament, and in the above scripture Luke 23:46 the "s" is lower case just like:"""
Rose on the third day is the physical manifestation of what had already happened. He went to the spirits in Hades in the Glory of His resurrection. Lest how would the spirits in Hades know it was Jesus Christ the Son of God, The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He did not need His Physical Body for that, but the resurrection power of God had already taken place that His Physical Body did not see corruption.
Jesus could move in all demention, physical and spiritual, third and forth dementions as He pleased. Through walls, when nobody would recognize who He was unless He manifest Himself to them as the Risen Christ. He could appear as a unrecognizable Spirit, or recognizable Spirit, unrecognizable flesh body or recognizable.
Even if He did not use His physical Body in the tomb, to preach to those in the lower parts of the earth, His body still did not see corruption because of the promise of the Father, but on the third He did use His Physical Body to manifest the prophecy and came forth physically in an Incorruptable body.In Christ: Phillip
So now you are saying his spirit resurrected right when he said" Father into thy hands I commend my spirit?
Trust, me, I believe what I said.
When the Bible speaks of the resurrection of Christ, it is speaking of his body-yes, Christ went to Hell in spirit form, and his body was resurrected the third day.
When I said and right after this, he descended into the lower regions of the earth, I am not ONLY referring to his body being put in the grave, I am also referring to his spirit descending into hell.
It's the basis of sound doctrine that physical death cannot occur without first experiencing a spiritual death.
That said I think the problem is in how each of us are defining the term "spiritual death"
If by spiritual death you mean separation from God, Jesus certainly experienced that
2 Cor 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This scripture makes it clear that
He was made to be sin. I suggest to you that unless Jesus experienced physical death He could not have been made sin
However let us make sure we are all on the same page with the term spiritual death.
I believe that the bible makes it clear that no spirit "literally" dies, all are eternal. This is why hell is necessary, its a place where those who are spiritually dead ( separated from God) will serve their life sentences. Jesus said Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. Similarly one can say Hell was not a place prepared with the intenetion that it was for the souls of men, but I digress.
Obviously Jesus went into Hell as a conquerer, John 14:6 says I am the way the truth and the Life. One can say Jesus was saying this
I am the Way of Life, I am the Truth of Life and I am the Life of Life.
In other words as stated in John 1:9 Jesus is Life itself, the source of Life. Everything was created by Him and through Him so that He could actually die is certainly out of the question, yet He temporarily experienced spiritual death, meaning separation from the Godhead when sin was laid upon Him on the Cross. At the point of physical death He entered Satans realm as a Conqueror.
Jesus Literally Being The Life of Life, He overcame the sting of spiritual death and physical death at the point He stated it is finished. One can say He fooled the enemy into thinking He could actually die, for if the enemy knew Jesus would enter his realm as a conqueror He certainly would've not crucified our Lord.
One can go one step further and say if Colossians 1:16 is correct, then Jesus certainly had a hand in preparing Satan's eternal prison. In that case, how could it hold Jesus.
The keys literally belong to Him! Jesus IS the Warden!
Jesus is one in Spirit with God , i cannot find in Scripture where Jesus had 2 spirits a human one and the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus, remember. He was God in the flesh. Emanuel, God is with us. in eph.4:1-9 pual is speaking of us walking lowly in meekness,Jesus' descending paul was refering to here is speaking of Him coming from heaven to earth and the grave . i shall clarify many points in this discussion soon
hagin says Jesus' spirit and inner man went to hell in my place, and says Jesus tasted spiritual death for everyman, he says that physical death would'nt remove your sins. this is on tape # 44 H01 .hagin also says that the believer is as much of an incarnation as Jesus Christ.in faith food,winter, 4th edition,1979.
Notice I said, "TheBlazedbyGod wrote:The scripture is very clear:
John 4:24 God is
[b]a Spirit[/b] : and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Why can't we just believe what the verses say, the way they say them?
Actually the verse says "God is spirit" with out the artical.
There is [b]a[b]Father[b]a
But, this is sorta off the topic.
Hagan is a heritic from the start.clintstone wrote:
hagin says Jesus' spirit and inner man went to hell in my place, and says Jesus tasted spiritual death for everyman, he says that physical death would'nt remove your sins. this is on tape # 44 H01 .hagin also says that the believer is as much of an incarnation as Jesus Christ.in faith food,winter, 4th edition,1979.
He is a heritic on more than one subject.
He is also a false prophet, you shouldn't be listening to him in the first place.
Why did His Spirit descend into Hell?
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice , he said , Father , into thy hands I commend my spirit : and having said thus , he gave up the ghost .
In His humanness His human soul, (spirit) is what He commended into the Father's hands. That is why He said, "my spirit". Father pathr, into eiV thy sou hands ceir I commend paratiqhmi my mou spirit. If it was the Spirit of God the Trinity, He would have said, Into you hands I commend our Spirit.
His Pneuma, superhuman Spirit was His to give or take up. The Spirit of God did not die, only His human pneuma (spirit), that is why the small "s", is what He commended to the Father.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's Spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.
Is the mind of Christ, that we know have, His rational human soul the vital principles of His full humanity, being all man, or the Spirit of the Father including the Holy Spirit, being all God.
See Greek 4154
See Greek 5590
i listen to what other believers are being decieved with . i have know since becomeing a Christian in 1985 that hagin has a messed up theology. i know that i need to only look to Jesus and His words . but we must also look to ourselves and some of us should long to be fathers spiritually in the things of God and that requires purity .i know that Jesus did not die a spiritual death. His death was physical . if it was his spirit and body that died which one pardoned our sins ?. i live in tulsa and there are alot of rhema students and grads here. i am writing about what the bible actually says on this Jesus dying and what it implys but i type slow and i will post it on here soon . it was finished on the cross the day Jesus hung there not in hell later. redeption happened on the cross , not in Jesus' spiritual death in hell that is so erroneously taught, and by some believed.
No.
i think these comments of yours have more wisdom in them than you think..i have studied as much as i can find on this and i do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus' death was spirituali still do not find it in scripture
phil
Could some one respond to this.clintstone:
i have studied as much as i can find on this and i do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus' death was spiritual
I tis a clear picture of spiritual death.
Since the Father hid His face from Jesus by forsaking Him, is that not severing the relationship(spiritual death)?
Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death - spirit from body(Eccl 12:7, James 2:26)
Spiritual death - spirit from God(Isa 59:2)
Even the death of a marriage is the eperation of man & wife.
Many times God hides His face when sin is[b]Mic 3:4
Isa 57:17; [b]Deu 31:16[b]:17[b]I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them,
Deu 31:17-18[color=990000]Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?[/color], Deu 32:20; Eze 39:23-24, Eze 39:29; Mic 3:4.
What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"[b]Is that not His Father hiding His face?
Is that not His Father forsaking Him?
What is severing a relationship, if not this?
What is spiritual death, if not this?
Jesus didn't have two Spirits.Christinyou:
His Pneuma, superhuman Spirit was His to give or take up. The Spirit of God did not die, only His human pneuma (spirit), that is why the small "s", is what He commended to the Father.
You can't use the lack od Capital letter "S" in the word "spirit" to prooves anything.
What Jesus commended to the Father was His Holy Spirit, that is all He had.
His breath(pnuma) was/is not his "Spirit" any more than your breath is.
I don't know what your talking about with this "superhuman Spirit" & human pneuma(spirit)
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Even though the spirit is soul of man is one in the container or clay pot of his body, the Word of God quickly and powerfully separates the three. The soul-mind is separated for the spirit of a man, which is either the spirit of our father Satan or the born again Spirit of Christ in us. Satan out, defeated at the Cross, Christ in for the believers and no longer of their father the devil. In Adam's choice of believing a lie and disobeying God, he chose the spirit of evil, which is Satan, not the Spirit of Life which is eternal life in Christ. That is why Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, God did not want them with eternal life being evil and in separation from God, with their chosen father Satan's spirit now in them and eternal damnation at the same time. That is why the Plan of God before even the foundation made provision for Adam's choice, and that was: Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
This is the purpose of our Glory, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
The same dispensation of God's timing, His fulness, which fulfilling it in Christ and giving the mystery to Paul to give to us-ward, "you-ward".
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
This is the Spirit of Christ in you and the spirit of Satan out. Now being able to be called by the Son that is birthed in us, by His Spirit, with our spirit, son's, the (human soul-mind spirit) now controlled by The Spirit of Christ we are His, and the Father can now have the son's He wanted in the first Adam, through the eternal last Adam's quickening Spirit.
Given to Paul, which is the mystery, The Born Again.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. ((((((((((Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.))))))))))
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Just like the Body of Christ was dead by the Cup He drank in the garden, the sin of the whole world, into His body, that is why in the mind of Christ, He felt the Father had turned away and that is the physical and soulish separation Jesus felt and cried, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me". That is the body that was resurrected on the third day.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Edited for content.
In Christ: Phillip
Christ bore all the weight of our sins and bore the wrath of God for us.What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
no, brother where does it say "the Father hid His face from Christ"? it doesn't, at best all we have is a vague old testament scripture that says nothing about the Father hiding His face from Christ.Is that not His Father hiding His face?
Although the trinity is in many ways a deep mystery, i do not see anywhere in scripture that says the Father severed a relationship with Jesus. can you please give me some scripture to show that??What is severing a relationship, if not this?
spiritual death in many places in scripture refer to us being dead because we are not quickened and filled with His Spirit. we are dead because we do not have Life in us and us in Him.What is spiritual death, if not this?
But nowhere in scripture do we see that the Father and Christ were seperated. nowhere do we see that they are not "One". in fact in john 10:30 Christ tells us that I and the Father are One". to say that the Father severed a relationship with Christ is to assert that at some point they were not "One". That would be denying the very foundation of the trinity my friend.
Add that along with the fact that Christ said "it is finished" (nothing else was needed), "today you'll be with Me in paradise" (not suffering in hell) and "into Your hands I commit my Spirit" and we see that while His body was in the grave, His Spirit was with the Father.
*interesting note* "Into Your hands I commit My Spirit" sounds alot like stephen , who while being stoned to death said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". Much like Christ, after stephen died his body went to the grave and his spirit went to be with the Lord.. just a cool parallel.
just some thoughts brother,
phil
This is the corruption that the body of Christ did not come to. So when was resurrection power applied?
Determining the Time of Death....
Rigor Mortis:
Immediately upon death, muscles all relax and become flexible or flaccid. But as glycogen in the muscles is converted to lactic acid, the muscles become rigid this occurs due to metabolism in the muscle continuing anaerobically for a short period after death. All muscles, large and small become rigor at the same rate, but it will become more obvious in smaller muscles first. This process occurs more quickly when the body is exposed to warmer temperatures and proceeds more slowly when the body is cooled. An examiner will calssify the degree of rigor as mild, early, moderate or complete and the determination is purely subjective. Rigor mortis is affected by temperature, illness, activity before death, and the physical conditions of the environment where the body is found.
The onset of rigor mortis is immediate manifesting itself between 1-6 hours, maximum being at 6-24 hours and disappears between 12-36 hours.
Livor Mortis....
Livor mortis is teh way blood settles after death to the dependant parts of the body. Blood settles to the lowest points of the body once the heart has stopped pumping. The areas where blood has settled will become dark and take on a dark bluish or purple color. Visibility will depend on the level of pigmentation in the deceased skin.
Because the heart stops beating at death, livor begins very soon afterward. This darkening maximizes at 8-12 hours after death and does not disappear.
Tardeau's spots (petechial hemorrhages):
These small spots are caused by broken capillaries and when they occur in the whites of the eye, are suggestive of asphyxia or suffocation. The spots maybe 4-5 mm in diameter.
Algor Mortis.....
The body cools uniformly after death. Once metabolism has ceased, the body immediately begins to cool down. Body temperature after death can be raised or maintained due to
activity, illness, decompositon, infection and absorption of heat from the surroundings. In determining the rate of cooling, consideration must be given to the clothing, victim size, activity and physical factors. The one equation used to determine the cooling rate is known as the GLAISTER EQUATION:
98.4% minus measured rectal temperature
_____________________________________ = appr. Hrs.
1.5 since death
Ocular Changes:
The cornea becomes cloudy within 2 hours or less if the deceased dies with the eyes open, closed it will be 12-24 hours. On the 3rd post mortem day, the corneas become opaque. When gases begin to collect in the body, the eyes may actually bulge out of the socket, but when advanced decomposition sets in, the eyes become endopthalmic, or retracted into the socket.
In Christ: Phillip
Thanx for the reply
Christ bore all the weight of our sins and bore the wrath of God for usLoveHim wrote:What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Explain what you think the weight of our sins is.
Does it include all of the consequences that sin brings between the Father & sinner?
You do know that this is the ONLY time that Jesus called His Father "God"?
Why did He call His Father "God"?
Because, only the estranged call The Father as "God".
How did God "forsake" Him?
no, brother where does it say "the Father hid His face from Christ"? it doesn't, at best all we have is a vague old testament scripture that says nothing about the Father hiding His face from Christ.Is that not His Father hiding His face?
All those verses that I gave with God hiding His face on the account of sin, God hid His face from Jesus as He being our sin offering.
Why do you think Jesus wept so bitterly in the Garden?
Why the swet of blood?
I tell you it ain't from the coming crucifiction, but from the bearing of the consequence of the guilt of sin(though not being guilty himself).
God can not look upon sin, & for Jesus to take the full brunt of our sin, God could not look upon Him just the Father can not look upon those who are not aquainted with Him through faith.
Although the trinity is in many ways a deep mystery, i do not see anywhere in scripture that says the Father severed a relationship with Jesus. can you please give me some scripture to show that?What is severing a relationship, if not this?
What is the consequence of the guilt of sin in which He bore?
It must be more than only physical death, for we suffer more than only physical death.
If Jesus didn't bear the full brunt of the consequence of the guilt of sin(physical & spiritual death), the question must be asked; did Jesus pay the full ransom price?
Was Jesus sacrifice an equal substitution of/for our condemnation?
spiritual death in many places in scripture refer to us being dead because we are not quickened and filled with His Spirit. we are dead because we do not have Life in us and us in Him.What is spiritual death, if not this?
The Trinity being "One" means to be unified. The Trinity is a coalition, concord, &/or agreement, conjunction of mind, will, affections & interest.But nowhere in scripture do we see that the Father and Christ were separated. nowhere do we see that they are not "One". in fact in john 10:30 Christ tells us that I and the Father are One". To say that the Father severed a relationship with Christ is to assert that at some point they were not "One". That would be denying the very foundation of the trinity my friend.
Being "One" is the junction or united existence of the Godhead for the Holy Trinity.
They never became un-unified in purpose, of mind, in working & love.
Jesus never stoped being God, niether did the Father.
All that happened was the Father forsook Jesus in respect to the consequence of the guilt of sin.
I whole heartedly agree. Jesus was never tormented or suffered in hell.Add that along with the fact that Christ said "it is finished" (nothing else was needed), "today you'll be with Me in paradise" (not suffering in hell) and "into Your hands I commit my Spirit" and we see that while His body was in the grave, His Spirit was with the Father.
thank you for your encouraging words . i am soon to post what i have found in my searchings on here . the mythology that some men go into to exsplain thier system of believing. Such as, that all men can be gods, since Jesus was only a man on earth and became the first one to be born again .
logic, you do not use logic when you exclude scriptures that refer to the subject that is being spoken of in particular passages . the bible is very subjective in the way it is written. theories about what certain scriptures are saying , that can go either way, prove nothing. there is much said about the atonement and what it was in scripture that just goes totally opposite of your arguement that "my god my god why have you forsaken me" means jesus spiritually died because god turned his back to jesus. that is not proof of jesus dying spiritually. in isaiah 53:10-12 ..yet it pleased the lord to bruise him ; he hath put him to grief : whe thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin' he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his daysand the pleasure of the lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see the travail of HIS SOUL, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my RIGHTEOUS SERVANT justify many, for He shall bear thier iniquities. therefore will i devide him a portion with the great, and he shall devide spoil with the strong; because HE HATH POURED OUT HIS SOUL unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors ; and he bare the sin of many , and made intercession for the transgressors. now when jesus had God turn his face away from him and he cried out " my god my god why have you forsaken me " that is what is spoken of in isa.53:10 in His soul was an offering for sin . it did not say His Spirit .an offering for sinand in isa.53:12 when it says " because He pour out HIS SOUL unto death" and it did not say His Spirit here either. that is what JESUS WWAS CRYING OUT FROM AND OFFERING when he cried out " myGod my God why have you forsaken me... he was not crying out from His spirit he was not pouring out his spirit when he said that HE commended HIS SPIRIT to the father already . he was crying out and pouring out His Soul unto death . at least according to this passage in isaiah 53 that is what happened.and thre is much more scripture on this that needs to be seen in the right context too.
logic , i am glad that you are here and that you believe in Christ but something to know about the atonemet that really helped me to see a lot of the mistakes is the way that charles finney taught in his systematic theology is that Christ did not suffer everything we would suffer if we did not get born again. the Scriptures nowhere represent the atonement as a commercial transaction. meaning that it was NOT an eye for an eye kind of transaction . yet this is what the false teachers that claim that jesus was on the cross and came to earth only as a man and not man and God. the atonement was only a transaction betweent the Father Son and Holy Spirit. it was ALL about the RIGHTEOUS SERVANTS' sacrifice for the ungodly. it was never about the sinful cursed jesus who died a spiritual death and needed to be born again before we could attain to the same place he had been born again into after he spiritually died . this was real shocking for me to think that hagin and copeland and dollar and hinn and capps and parsley and so many other prominent men can be so beyond what the bible really says,, this is why i am so blessed to have a site that i can discuss and search out the matter as far is i can go because i live in tulsa and have many loved ones i come in contact with that believe most anything hagin and copeland tell them , and are not willing to give into the scriptual view of the atonement. look up what charles finney teaches on what the atonement is, he is one of the best theologians i know of . i am not saying that he is infallible, but he is clear deep and precise on the scriptual view of atonement. this will help to clear up much about what secured our fellowship with the Heavenly Father and just exactly how we can do what He requires of us . remember if a sinner can do it , it is not what God requires .
I have tried as often as possible to read every forum from the first, but I hope you will pardon me on this if I do not read all 91 previous posts as I am not intending to enter this topic. I am only posting this as I noticed clintstone asked a question from a previous thread, "Geenna and Hades". :-P
I just wanted to make a few points of some things that I have understood from Scripture concerning the three days of Christ's death and burial.
I have heard some say that while the Lord Jesus was buried He was "inactive." That is to say, He was in His grave (I guess we might say "sleeping") and three days later He came out.
But this is a very strange thing to say, and it ought to be.
The argument is: how can we say Jesus went down to the pit and was tortured by demons, etc., when Jesus was Himself without sin, even though He took our sins upon Himself.
Well, the first error that occurs to me when I hear this: when did demons suddenly have authority to torture those in the "underworld"? If we want to talk about Catholic fiction, this would be it. Last I checked the pit was a prison for demonic angels, not their playground or kingdom to torture pitiful souls.
And I am not concerned about what people have "dreamed" or had "visions" of (regardless of being "out of the body" or not)-- it isn't in Scripture, simple as that. Thus, it is enough for me to be satisfied that these people who dreamed or had visions were possibly shaken up to their eternal judgment.
Now, Jesus said He was going to "Paradise" just before he died on the cross. Shall we then assume He was talking about suffering in death as a certain rich man did (Luke 16)? It should also be mentioned that before Christ's resurrection every spirit descended. Scripture says the spirit of Jesus went down to Sheol - did He suffer there or what? We do not know.
To be very honest the Scriptures are not entirely clear on what happened during the three days of Christ's burial. He certainly descended, and that descended spiritually, there are plenty of verses to verify this. And He likewise ascended leading captivity captive.
Ephesians 4
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
As you will recall that when Jesus resurrected on the third day,
Matthew 27
52. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. "And came out of the graves [b]after his resurrection
As for Jesus being spiritually "dead" because He took our sins upon Himself, I like what Logic said
They (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) never became un-unified in purpose
That is absolutely correct.
So, again, clearly Jesus went down beyond the grave. But if you would like to know more information about this, it will be mostly speculation and if it were honestly of significance the Lord would have explained it to us. This is not a query that will likely ever be understood with the human wisdom considering the nature of this question being not only spiritual but a matter of Deity (not to mention the lack of Scripture).
What truly matters is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins and rose again on the third day conquering death and the grave: proving Himself the Son of God. He also ascended up on high and sat down upon His Throne as our King and High Priest forever; offering up the blood of His atoning sacrifice through the Holy Spirit unto the Father; whereby the Father sent forth the Holy Spirit in the Name of Christ Jesus according to the promise.
thank you for your replies, i will try to answer your questions as well.
What is the wrath of God at the cross? I think Wayne Grudem answers it pretty good."The wrath of God at the cross seems to be what romans 3:25-26 is describing. That in times past God did not simply forgive sins and forget about them, but instead He had forgiven sins and stored up His righteous anger. Then at the cross the fury of all that stored up wrath against sin was unleashed on His own Son".I know about the weight of sin, but what is the wrath?
not true my friend. He also calls His Father "God" in john 20:17 when He tells Mary not to touch Him "Because He has not ascended to His Father......I ascend to My Father and your Father and to My God and your God"You do know that this is the ONLY time that Jesus called His Father "God"?
Why did He call His Father "God"?
Because, only the estranged call The Father as "God".
here would be a good time to explain the forsaking at the cross. First we know that this is a reference to the 22nd Psalm which starts out "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"? What does this psalm talk about? feeling forsaken by God and men. being despised, beaten, being outnumbered by the enemy, using up all your strength, etc.. but then look at the psalm from verse 19-31. It is a psalm of praise in who God is and a trust that ultimately God will deliver Him.How did God "forsake" Him?
So Jesus when saying this was referencing His feeling forsaken by the disciples, family and The Father. He was saying the same thing as the psalm. but the question has to be asked "Was Jesus forsaken all together and did God totally turn His back on Jesus at the cross? Did God totally forsake David in the 22nd psalm? I don't think scripture shows us that. i believe that it shows us how desperate, alone and forsaken they felt, but they knew that although they felt forsaken, they were not and would utimately be delivered..
i hope that kinda answers some of your questions.. i gotta go, but i wanted to try to write you and answer some of your questions..
thanks for your graciousness..
phil
hello boG , thank you for the post. i mentioned the first thread as a question because i am not al knowing . but i do know what the scripture says , and also what Jesus himself said, of his work and the culmination of that in His death and ressurection. Yet the more that i keep ,adding line upon line here a little and there a little,of understanding who Jesus Christ is and the atonement, the more that i see many following this group that says they have all the answers of what really happened to this jesus that became a sinful man and died spiritually... all sin is voluntary not one partical of sin is constitutional. the outcome of sin is physical but not the sin itself. i do believe there is abottom to this issue from scripture and i am learning and searching it all the way through. i believe i will find the way to exsplain ,from scripture, all there is to know of this ,so that those who follow those that adhere to this false doctrine can know for certain the truth . so i am looking for more info on this topic that what i already have. i have yet to post all that i know from scriptures and the original language. i do know that those who claim Jesus died spiritually and physically have misinterpreted 2cor5:21 and isa.53 to come up with this nonscence
Love Him, you have a good spirit , i am glad to know that you care for truth . thank you for your input . Clint
Logic wrote:
"""I don't know what your talking about with this "superhuman Spirit" & human pneuma(spirit)"""
Because we have a spirit, soul, and body.
The spirit and soul are connected with the body, but when the body dies the soul and spirit are present with the Lord, when we are His.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This "superhuman" is a reference from;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.
See Greek 4154
See Greek 5590
Spirit, pneuma, of Christ (superhuman) Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The spirit-soul of Christ is what died on the Cross. The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot be in separation, so it was not the Spirit of Christ that dies on the Cross, but his human spirit-soul. The Spirit of Christ that is in us will never die either, that is why the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the By the Faith of the Son of God, which is His Spirit that is in me, which will never die, My human soul-spirit which is now One with the Spirit of Christ, which is the fulness of the God-head bodily.
Colossians 2:8-16 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
"Superhuman," came directly from Strong's Greek Concordance.
Can you separate the spirit, soul and body in your mind? God does: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
What sword is coming out of the mouth of Jesus?
The Word Himself.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Same sword as Heb 4; romjaia rhomphaia hrom-fah'-yah.
Soul; Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. psuche
Search for G5590 in KJVSL
yuch psuche psoo-khay'
from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
Spirit; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
In Christ: Phillip
Well clintstone, after I wrote that last post, I went to bed and lay awake quite a few more hours in prayer.
This is one of the fruits of that time with the Lord. I pray it directs your path in truth.
As I noted Logic wrote previously,
They (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) never became un-unified in purpose
So, if I may, I would like to expound on that point.
What is sin? It is obedience to unrighteousness (that which is contrary to the Spirit of Life).
[b]Romans 6
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
...
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Was Jesus a slave to sin? [b]Never.
Was Jesus a slave (servant) to the Father?[b]Always.
Thus, this raises a peculiarity of "spiritual" proportions.
[b]1 Peter 2
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree ...
[b]2 Corinthians 5
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
[b]Philippians 2
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, [b]and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross
Now Christ was made to be sin for us, though He Himself was without sin. However, even in this "sin" Christ was perfectly "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" according to the will of the Father.
So we have Jesus made to be sin and yet perfectly obedient unto righteousness "resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life," by doing so.
In this way it is very straight-forward to understand how death could not hold Him nor the grave keep Him. But as to the "dynamics" of how Jesus could become sin through righteousness?
I know the OT sacrifices are parables of Christ's sacrifice; they give us some practical understanding, yet these parables are "speaking in human terms because of the weakness of [our] flesh."
So we may reason the atonement through all the different OT offerings, of particular note would be [b]Leviticus 16, concerning the two goats and the bullock
Now, if I were to put in my two-cents, here is what I would say:
1) Jesus' spirit: did not die. How could His eternal Spirit be seperated from the Father for perfect obedience?
2) Jesus' soul: I don't know, you tell me. As far as my mind can grasp, there is no such knowledge or wisdom given to reveal such a revelation (it is unprecedented). However, personally I would put the "made to be sin" part here: in the soul.
But how shall we say it is so: like oil and water, like fire and water, or righteousness and unrighteousness equally mixed together into one substance? It is all speculation.
3) Jesus' body: died indeed, yet did not suffer corruption (decay).
As much as I despise hearing anyone tell me, "well, it is a mystery" (when it isn't! :-P ). This is one of those things I will gladly let be what it is: the Mystery of the Love of God.
(Congratulations, you've taken me as far out of Scriptural certainty as you will likely ever see me go! :-) )
Well said brother. That is the main point i was trying to make. I do not see in scripture where Jesus and the Father were seperated. Jesus said of His Father "I am in Him and He is in Me". That is the aspect of the trinity that is more than a unified purpose. It is a1) Jesus' spirit: did not die. How could His eternal Spirit be seperated from the Father for perfect obedience?
phil
If you take a spotless lamb, which has nothing to do with the sin it is being slain for the sins of the people. The Lamb does not know why he is being slain. The Lamb of God did know why He was being slain, especially in drinking the Cup in the garden with the sin of the whole world into His Body, which was a special body prepared for Him, the only body strong enough to have all the sin of the world in his body, that is the cup he ask to be taken away, but He drank it, "Yet not my will but your".
The body of Christ was the perfect atonement, for it was sinless, just like the spotless lamb slain before the altar, that animals blood being a temporary sacrifice every year for the sin of the children of Israel. The Blood of Jesus being Human and all God, the Blood which was Devine God's Seed put in Mary to bring forth the blood of Christ which was in the Fathers Seed, no spot, wrinkle or inkling of any sin in His body, "The life of the flesh is in the Blood", "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood", the only sacrifice God could accept for the sin of the whole world, Once for all time, The only perfect blood sacrifice was in the flesh body of Christ, never to be hung on the Cross again.
The God Spirit and divinity of Christ could never die, but the soul-spirit, flesh and blood body could and did for the sin of the whole world.
In Christ: Phillip
well said brother. all hail the power in the blood that was given through an eternal spirit that never died ,and that spirit was the one spirit of the Father Son and Holy Ghost
now , lets dig into what is fitting with our nature , which God is the author of. the proponents of Christs spiritual death take 3 scriptures out of context to come up with this. the main one is 2corinthians5:21 the other is isaiah 53:9 and phillipians 2:8...in phillipians 2;8 " Jesus became obedient unto death" the greek word used becomes important : it is the word makri or " until " or " up to the time of " His death, which was the act of ultimate obedience to the Father . However, word faith teaches that He was obedient to death and to the creator of death, which never happened. this meaning fits with abraham and his obedience in offering his son , which his son was spared. now isaiah 53:9 says "His grave was assigned with the wicked men Yet he was with arich man in His DEATH." e.w. kenyon exsplains that the word death is in the plural in the Hebrew , indicating that Jesus died twice on the cross,He died spiritually so that He could die physically. kenyon states this in his book ,, what happened from the crosss to the throne ,pp.44-45. In the hebrew, the word death is preceeded by an artical, "His" it is true that this article is in the plural in some manuscripts. However, the noun " death" is NOT in the plural in the hebrew text. if it were in the plural it would have a special ending indicating this. the earliest manuscripts do not even have the artical " His " in the plural. this has led scholars to assume that the plural article is merely a copyists error, since it is not followed as a plural noun as it should be.The word for death in the hebrew is "MAWET" it is used 150 times in the old testament .D.R. McConnell exsplains the hebrew pural in this text in relation to kenyons teachings: " pural nouns are extreemly common in the hebrew scriptures. they are not just used to denote numerical plurality, but also to emphasize a particular meaning of the noun. In Hebrew,plural nouns exspress majesty,rank, excellence, magnitude and intensity. in isa.53:9 " deaths " is a pural of intensity used by the writer to indicate that the death of Jesus was a particularly violent one. it no more means that the king of tyre died two deaths than that the Messiah died two deaths" [ d.r. mcconnell,p.128 ]. the translation could be,, "and He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His violent death.". from the [jamieson, fausset, and brown commentary ] they say that the Messiah died in both ways physically and spiritually.. Greek scholars agree that it was a violent death. another example of this is in ezek.28:8-10 which depicts the violent death of the king of tyre: " you will die the DEATH of those who are slain. " Keil and Delitzsch, in thier commentary on the old testament vol. 7, isaiah, inform us that both the is. and ezek. passages , the pural form for death is an example of pluralis exaggerativus: it is applied to a violent death, the very pain of which makes it like dying again and again." luke22:19,20 Jesus exsplains what His death meant, and also 1cor.11:24-26, mark 14:22-24 Jesus said take eat this is my body and it being unleavened bread meant sinless. Jesus spoke of laying down His physical life in John15:13, not His spirit.. john6:51 Jesus said this bread i give for the life of the world is My Flesh. Col.1:20." yet now has he reconciled you in His fleshy body through death". even if He did die spiritually , it is not the spiritual death that could have any importance but the atonementthrought the blood, the life of the man. the blood atones, not any suffering by itself before or after the cross. The whole old testament types and symbolic usage's of sacrifices show Christ as the fulfillment of the law. both Paul's epistles to different churches say the very same things.Col.1:14, eph. 1:7. ,heb.10:19-20, rev.1:5, these scripture al say by His blood or through His blood , which , by the way was given through an eternal spirit. Kenneth copeland has literally said that " when His blood poured out , it did not atone." [ kenneth Copeland : from a personal letter to D. R. McConnell, dated 12/3/79 . cited in a different gospel, p. 120 ] what hagin , kenyon, billhiemer, copeland teach is a diferent gospel, becuase the whole gospel is center in the atonement that is by the physical , fleshy body broken and and the ,life ressurection,Jesus, blood of Jesus . one name that we can all name Jesus with , that i hardly ever here Him called is Ressurection , Jesus is Ressurection . He told mary that at lazarus' grave. What actually happened to Jesus' spirit is seen in Luke 23:46: " Father, into Thy hands i commit My Spirit [ matthew 27:50 ,John 19:30].Jesus gave Himself to the fathers hand , not satan. He pronounced His time of departure, yielding His spirit to God the Father , and then breathed His last . He gave His body for us , and commited His spirit to God. His spirit did not die, or go to sleep, nor was it taken captive in hell.The cross was a place of victory not of defeat.kenneth hagin says the cross was a place of defeat though, yet He and Copeland are not scriptually sound. This brings me to the final of the 3 scriptures tha is taken way out of context and misinterpreted. That is 2 corinthians 5:21. In 2 cor. 5:19 it says that" God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself " 2 cor.5:21 word-faith promoters confuse the meaning of this passage, since it is important for thier doctrine of substitution and validates the idea of Jesus suffering in hell . Paul says: " for He made Him who knew no sin TO BE SIN FOR US that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. isa.53:5 tells us that the chastisement of our peace was laid " upon" Him. isa. 53:6 says that the Lord laid the iniquity of us all "on" Him , not "in" Him; there was nochange in nature. Our sin was laid to His account.He bore it as a penalty as a punishment, as our substitution; He carried it away [ fulfilling the typology of the scapegoat in leviticus. 16 ]not becomeing sin orcrushed by it.As it says in isa.53:10, it peased the Lord to bruise Him. How? By being a lamb led to the slaughter.vs12 tells us he made intercession for the transgressors, which would be hard to do if He became one of them. Since God does not hear the prayer of asinful man, especially the sin fullest man that ever lved [ the faith teachers claim He became worse than all having every sin imaginable]. i could wrie specifics on just how bad Hinn , copeland ,creflo dollar, hagin are so wrong but the bible is what i want to get across to those reading this . i do think that some things they say should be mentioned so here is one from , Creflo Dollar " He's got to look like a sinner. Or they're not going receive Him into hell, you've got to be a sinner. He's got to somehowlook like that serpent on that stick in moses' day. He's got to look like a serpent in order to be taken in . And Jesus who had never sinned , made an exchange with His covenant partner. He says " let me where your coat of sin. It'll make me look like a sinner. I've never sinned , but if i can put your coat of sin on , when i get back I'm going to give you my coat of righteousness. So the bible says that He who had not sinned was made to be sin [ Our Equaltiy with God Through Righteousness 1/21/2001 ] Jesus had to " accept the sin nature of satan." [ Kenneth Copeland, what happened fron the cross to the throne, side 2] thes are just a couple of many . Nowhere in scripture does it say , God made Him to be a sinner' but ' He had made Him to be sin'. This occured by taking our place as our substitution. contrary to kenyons theology, which went to emerson college to learn his theology from mary baker eddy , who founded christian science, and trine, and emerson, Nowhere does scripture say that satan became Jesus' master. God subject to satan is not the teaching of the bible in any shape or form. Benny Hinn says " ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way He could stop satan is by becoming one in nature with him. you say,' What did you say? What blasphemy is this ?' No, you hear this! He did not take my sin ; He became my sin. Sin is the nature of hell. Sin is what madesatan... It was sin that made satan. Jesus said," I'll besin ! I'll go to the lowest place! I'll go to the origin of it! I won't just tack part in it, I'll be the totality of it!''[ Benny Hinn program, TBN, 12/15/90 ] First we need to know that the origin of sin was not hell nor does hell have a nature. If Christ became sin He is ACCURSED, which is exactly what faith teachers are saying. this would be different than the curse of the law found in galations 3;13-14 " Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law , having become a curse for us[ for ti is written " cursed is everyone who hang on a tree " ] this shows He took away the law away that made one guilty when they did not keep it perfectly. it also shows it occured on the cross [ Col. 2: 14-15 ] 2 cor.5:21 In adam Clarkes commentary he states " He made him who knew no sin[ who was innocent ] , a sin offering for us. the word hamartia [ nt;266] occures here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said He knew NO sin, i.e. was innocent.. In the second place it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the chaTa'ah [ OT: 2401 ] and chaTa'at [ OT 2401 ] of the hebrew text; which signifies both sin and a sin-offering in a great variety of places in the petateuch. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew word by hamartia [ NT:266 ] in 94 places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our trans lators attended to thier own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here , they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; namely, that uor sins were imputed to Christ , and that He was a proper object of the indignation of devine justice, because He was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind , or of the elect, as they say , were imputed to Him, and reckoned as His own. One of these writers translates the passage thus;... God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin with the punishment due to sin. Christ in our stead;died for us; bore our sins[ the punishment due them ] , in His own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon Him the iniquities fo us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making His soul-His life, an offering for sin; and healing us by His stripes. [ Adam Clarke's Commentary ] Jamieson, Fausset , and Browns Commentary on 2 cor.5:21'...the representative guilt-bearer of the aggregate sin of all men past , present,and future. The sin of the world is one; therefore the singular, not the plural is used; its manifestations are maniflod [ john1;29, rom. 8; 3-4; Gal. 3:13 ] [ For us ] - Greek ' in our behalf' [ john3;14 ] Christ was represented by the brazen serpent, the form, not the substance, of the old serpent. At this death on the cross the sin-bearing for us was consummated . [from jamieson, fausset, and brown commentary ] Albert Barnes notes on 2cor5:21 that hamartian does not mean that He was sin itself, or a sinner, or guilty , then it must mean that He was a sinoffering- an offering or sacrifice for sin; and this is the interpretation now genarally adopted by expositors; or it must be taken as an abstract for the concrete, and mean that God treated Him as if He were a sinner. The former interpretation , that it means that God made Him a sin-offering." Locke also agrees that God treated Him as if He had been a sinner ; that while He was in fact perfectly innocent, it pleased the Father to lay upon Him the punishment ,[ THAT GOD DEEMED needful to secure justice and show mercy, and extend pardon ] [ Certainly Christ's being made sin,is not to be explained of His being made sin in the abstract, nor of His having actually become a sinner; yet it does imply, that sin was charged on Christ, or that it was imputed to Him, and that He became answerable for it. Nor can this idea be excluded, even if we admit " sin-offering " is the proper rendering of hamartia in the passage. A.T. Robertson states that the words " to be " in 2cor. 5;21 or not in the greek. Sin here is in the substantive, not the verb. God " treated as sin" the one " who knew no sin." A.T. Robertson also staes that " we dare not probe to far into the mystery of Christ's sufferings on the Cross, ' meaning its depth is left to God alone . But this si exactly what the faith teachers do, and because of this they come to the wrong conclusions . By going beyond what Scripture states ! in 1 John 3:5 it says " in Him , THERE IS NO SIN , literally meaning He had no sin before , during, nor after the cross, ther are some who may not understand that they are saying that there is NO salvation in the cross! But Paul states that there is no salvation apart from the cross. i could go on a lot further how this does away with the atonement , when you believe hagin and copelands and hinns ideas of this spiritual death and jesus becoming sin and going to hell because of ti but i shall stop for now and let you all reason this post out first . God Bless you all , and there is POWER IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS 1