Does God love all people equally?

[b]Does God love all people equally?[/b]
By Michael Spotts:.
(You may hear an audio version of this article on my website, [url=http://theopenlife.blogspot.com/2008/09/does-god-love-all-people-equally.html]here[/url].)

Contrary to prevailing notions, the bible does not state anywhere that God [i]loves[/i] all people in the same, unqualified sense. Rather, we are told He loves certain groups and individuals in different ways and extents. It is important now to express what we mean by the term [i]love[/i], which in relation to God differs substantially from the word in other contexts.

Divine love is God's sovereign and sincere determination to do benevolently to others to the full extent that doing so agrees with His perfect wisdom and will. In relation to sinners, the word [i]love[/i] is used to describe His patient withholding of just curses. For example, we read that God loved the nation of Israel, and therefore held back judgments for a time. Bear in mind that Israel included many - if not mostly - reprobate idolaters. God patiently extended mercies to them, despite all the while having what is called hatred for them as well. God [i]hates all workers of iniquity[/i]. [Psalm 5:5] His ways are not our ways.

We may better understand this apparent duality of Divine intentions by appreciating the relationship between sin, justice, and grace. No sinner deserves for God to withhold judgment and damnation. Not for one minute, one second. The just nature of God may at any time require the recompense of their wicked actions. However, God is innately good; therefore, according to the extent of grace He has determined to reveal in them, He not only preserves the earthly lives of these objects of His righteous anger but gives many blessings such as health, relationships, and pleasure. These gifts are given with unfeigned benevolence even to those who pervert and worship created things in place of their Creator.

No inconsistency of Divine character may be found in God's withdrawing of this kindness from any sinner. To assert otherwise would deny the basic fact that such long-suffering was [i]graciously[/i] given in the first place. Sinners cannot make demands of God, nor is God motivated to do sinners kindly for any other reason that He sees fit to glorify His name through the revelation of His patience towards them. When God has finished with His gracious favors and mercies, and they have continued in willful rebellion, then His mode of self-glorification is changed to their destruction. They become eternal markers of holy justice, [i]vessels of wrath fitted to damnation[/i].

There is only one sense of God's love towards sinners which may be thought of as irrevocable and filial. The father-and-child type of God's love is reserved for the Elect only, as it was given to them from eternity by virtue of their eternal adoption. From before time God elected certain sinners to be joint-heirs with Christ. Their election was not based upon any foreseen work or faithfulness in them, nor was their choice arbitrarily random, but was made entirely in the good and secret wisdom of God.

It must be remembered that with regards to their sins, God once possessed a just hatred even of those sinners whom He elected, for God is no respecter of persons. But in respect of the death of Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the Father's covenantal love for the Elect is eternal and proceeds their conversion in time. In other words, before all times God placed His eternal love upon sinners whom He hated justly.

What may be said of those whom the Father did not elect? God has wisely chosen instead to magnify His patience and generosity through His temporary merciful dealings and sincere pleadings, providences and deliverances of them. Alas, none of these wretched persons heed the strivings of God's Spirit to seek salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but willfully plunge onward in love of sin. Therefore they are concluded as objects of His wrath. When and as He determines, God removes these reprobates into judgment, never again to receive expressions of His gracious benevolence upon them.

In consideration of God's various forms and extents of graciousness towards His creatures, we may accept all God does as the most perfect design of His infinite wisdom. There could have been no alternate way, for had there been another, better way, He would certainly have done it. Let us be content to cover our mouths and say with Job, [i]Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right[/i]?

I do not agree with much of your predestination theory, or how you interpret scripture. But brother, what do you make of Titus chapter two?

NKJ Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

is this not to say God loved all men? or what do you make of it?

Christian

in Matthew 13:13-16
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 6:13-16
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Hebrews 12:6-17
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no * * chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby *.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby * * many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward *, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

If your obedient it is an indication that your a son. when your not obedient and are chasened your loved by him who chastens...

heres a couple last scriptures to think about.
psalm 5:5
5 The arrogant shall not stand in your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity.

PSALM 11:4-5

4 Yahweh is in his holy temple. Yahweh is on his throne in heaven. His eyes observe. His eyes examine the children of men.
5 Yahweh examines the righteous, But the wicked and him who loves violence his soul hates.

DEUT.7:9-16
9 Know therefore that Yahweh your God, he is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant and lovingkindness with them who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations,
10 and repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.
11 You shall therefore keep the commandment, and the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day, to do them.
12 It shall happen, because you listen to these ordinances, and keep and do them, that Yahweh your God will keep with you the covenant and the lovingkindness which he swore to your fathers:
13 and he will love you, and bless you, and multiply you; he will also bless the fruit of your body and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your cattle and the young of your flock, in the land which he swore to your fathers to give you.
14 You shall be blessed above all peoples: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
15 Yahweh will take away from you all sickness; and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you know, will he put on you, but will lay them on all those who hate you.
16 You shall consume all the peoples who Yahweh your God shall deliver to you; your eye shall not pity them: neither shall you serve their gods; for that will be a snare to you.

MY FAVORITE SCRIPTURE
JOHN 14:21
21 Someone who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him."

So does God love everyone the same? well in some way yes, but not in the context that would matter to all of us who will face him on judgment day. That is what matters, what will happen to us when we stand before a holy God.

Were we someone who he opened our eyes, so that we would repent and be saved, or are we blind, our hearts fat, according to Isaiah?
Only God will reveal that to those who are His.
Praise God for his mercy and allows us to see our true condition.

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(Mat 5:43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

(Mat 5:44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

(Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

(Mat 5:46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

(Mat 5:47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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The nature of the children of God is to love their enemies. They love in this way because they are of their Heavenly Father and He causes it to rain on the just and unjust. He is utterly consistent in the distribution of His love. If God did not love His enemies He would have no [i]living[/i] enemies, but He is not willing that any perish, but all come to repentance. So He continues to pour upon them His goodness that they might be led unto repentance and be reconciled to Him.

I believe in a sense, that God took upon Himself the full fury of His own unbridled wrath on the Cross of Calvary. In the mystery of those hours covered in darkness He shielded me from the wrath I so justly deserved with His own Self. He stood betwixt me and His wrath and poured it out without mixture. He did this while I was yet His enemy. He did this when my life was train wrecking and I was pressing Him far from my mind.

When I had heaped my affection on every unworthy thing- giving 'common things' that which only HE deserved; He looked through the corridor of time and saw me... and He died for [u]me[/u]. This is the message of the Gospel that even while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. This is the greatest expression of love imaginable. Who can come to this love? Who can bask in the warmth and generosity of it? Who can whet their parched tongue that hath cursed when it should have blessed and complained when it should have thanked?

[color=000066]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And [u]whosoever will[/u], let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)[/color]

Two verses to reconsider 'rigid' predestination.

1 Tim 2:3-4 NIV This is good, and pleases [b]God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth[/b].

Matt 23:37 KJV O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, [b]how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not[/b]!

God desires all men to be saved, Jesus would have gathered the people of Israel but they would not be gathered. This doesn't sound like a God who predestines people to eternal damnation, this doesn't sound like a God who has different shades of love.

God is Love, perfect love, there is o gradation of God's love, if there was, He would not be perfect and he would not be God. The difference is not with God, the difference is with the response of man.

In consideration of God's various forms and extents of graciousness towards His creatures, we may accept all God does as the most perfect design of His infinite wisdom. There could have been no alternate way, for had there been another, better way, He would certainly have done it. Let us be content to cover our mouths and say with Job, Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

The idea that a loving God unconditionally reprobates sinners cuts against the grain of our understanding of God all together. That would not be the behavior of a God of love. The trouble of unconditional reprobation is that is makes God the Devil and Satan appears more righteous than God. As Wesley once said, if unconditional reprobation were true it had made God the father of lies.

[color=000066]Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (Abraham)[/color]

Beloved brothers and sisters,

I encourage you to spend a couple of months reading Matthew Henry's commentary on Song of Solomon on your knees in the prayer closet. God has greatly used Matthew Henry's Exposition on Song of Solomon to reveal that my Saviors love for me is eternally and infinitely greater than for those who will perish in hell. Read and study that book and God will manifest himself to you with great discoveries of His love for you.

The day that I realized that God's love for me (His bride) is infinitely and eternally greater than His love for those who perished in hell, brought me to weeping for days.

I was like a bride who was being told by modern preachers, "your husband loves you the same way he loves all women." Now I know he has loved me with an everlasting love. he gave His son for me. Dear child of God, if that does not make you weep... you have yet to discover greater depths of His love for you.

Oh, how this modern trend made the love of Christ toward His bride so shallow.

I know that God hates all workers of iniquity and that His holy hatred and wrath abides on them forever in hell. When someone tells me that God loves me just as much as he loves them... Oh, this robbed me of any assurance to know that He has loved me (His bride) with an everlasting love!

You can read Henry's exposition here. I encourage you to print it and read in the prayer closet.

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=so

Blessings,
Abraham

EDIT:word corrections,Sentence added

I know that God hates all workers of iniquity and that His holy hatred and wrath abides on them forever in hell.

[color=000066]And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, (Luke 19:41)[/color]

This may be, but we cannot forget the fact that Jesus wept over the people and lamented with the strongest of lamentations (Matthew 23). When Jeremiah wept- it was God weeping over the people through his eyes. Sinners are going to a devils hell, no doubt, but not without a lamentation from their creator.

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. When Jesus wept over the people they were [u]real[/u] tears that burned from a gross sadness that a people created in His own image would be cut off forever and ever from Him. And when our hearts begin to beat in step with God's we will lament and weep for the lost also. It is a wrong spirit in men that desires fire to be called down upon sinners. Where is the love that Paul expressed when he said he would be cut-off from Christ to save his own people the Israelites? Was that Paul or was the the manifestation of the love of God poured out in his heart by the Holy Ghost?

Friends we will never understand God love so long as we keep congratulating ourselves in having been elected. We will know God's love when we can look down from a cross suspended between heaven and earth and cry out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." When we can be so full of the love of God, as Steven, that we would look up to heaven and ask God not to lay the sin to his killers account. We will know God's love when Christ is in us reconciling the world unto Himself. The longer I spend in prayer the more I weep for a hardened and lost people that are doomed and damned.

RobertW wrote:

Friends we will never understand God love so long as we keep congratulating ourselves in having been elected.

Yes my friend. Your words speak truth.

The thinking that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell is a product of carnal mind. It is a play of the scriptures with human genius and logic.

To the faithful, God's offer of His Grace & salvation is sure with utmost sincerity, honesty, without pretense, without partiality to whosoever will have faith on Him, Jews, Greek, anybody..

Grace and Faith as simply declared in the bible and not according to the terminologies that the human beings added according to the excellency of their thinking.

I wonder, how sure are the ones who believe in limited atonement, that they are really one of the Elect?

Will they prevent themselves to enter the kingdom of God, will they prevent others also.

Human logic is very limited, the pharisees seemingly knew the scriptures very well, but when the Lord came they failed to recognize Him.

Friends we will never understand God love so long as we keep congratulating ourselves in having been elected.

I have in mind, again Paul's continual sorrow of heart for the lost Jews. I rejoice that my name is written in heaven, but there is a lamentation besides that weeps for family and friends and multitudes that know not the Lord.

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(Rom 11:17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

(Rom 11:18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

(Rom 11:19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

(Rom 11:20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. [u]Be not highminded, but fear:[/u]

(Rom 11:21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
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Truly there is severity upon those that are lost, but we must fear also. There is a seriousness to folk going to hell that ought to make us shutter. I think of Leonard Ravenhill's story of Charlie Peace and how he said he would have crawled across England on broken glass to save one soul. That is the magnitude of the weight of soberness that a revelation of Hell upon our minds ought to bring. This is why I believe Ravenhill was so near to weeping all the time in his latter years. This is not like getting picked or not picked for a grade school kickball team. This is an eternal situation that demands soberness to the uttermost.

Many verses have been raised here to challenge the doctrines in question. I do not have time abounding to answer every response, though I would desire to. It is my pleasure to work for the Lord in presenting precious truth in a palatable and generous way, but for the passages I cannot attend to, I greatly commend Dr. John Gill's [url=http://lampfordarktimes.blogspot.com/2008/09/cause-of-god-and-truth-john-gill.html]"The Cause of God and Truth"[/url]. In this mammoth work he exigetically provides responses to every major (and virtually every minor) passage used to deny or confuse these facts. The book is laid out very nicely online with links to each common passage. You may see it [url=http://lampfordarktimes.blogspot.com/2008/09/cause-of-god-and-truth-john-gill.html]here[/url].

I will respond now to the first question, raised by Christian (hmmhmm), regarding Titus 2:11-12.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Christian, we are friends, and I speak kindly to you as a brother. I believe you have separated this passage from its context and, I am sure unintentionally, obscured it to frame a meaning not intended by Paul.

It must be minded that this passage is set within a long exhortation to practice Christian ethics; Paul is arguing that all professing Christians should maintain a high standard of holiness. His reasoning is that every man, woman, and child to whom God's justifying grace is imparted, receives an also imparted principle of holiness, and should therefore live holy lives. In other words, Paul is leaving no excuse for someone who says, "I have received saving grace," and yet claims to not feel obligated to improve his morality.

Consider the passage again,

"For the grace of God that [b]bringeth salvation[/b] hath appeared to all men, [b]Teaching us[/b] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; [b] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing[/b] of the great God and [b]our Saviour[/b] Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

First, the grace here spoken of (v.11) is not an [i]ineffectual[i] grace. There is effectual grace, and there is ineffectual grace. Felix heard the gospel and shuddered, but he did not believe. However, in Acts 16:14, we are told that the Holy Spirit "opened Lydia's heart so that she would respond to Paul's message." It can not be any more plain that all men's hearts are therefore closed to the gospel message, which is itself ineffectual, until the Holy Spirit effectually opens their hearts, thereby causing them to willfully respond in acceptance. Again, this passage cannot refer to the gracious verbal call to repentance; otherwise Paul could not say it has "appeared to all men." Need I say that it is painfully obvious that relatively few people have ever heard the true gospel? The message has not appeared to every man. Nor can Paul be speaking of the mere preaching of the gospel, for the preached word does not "bring salvation" effectually to all who hear it.

Allow me to make it very evident that Paul is speaking of [i]effectual[/i] grace. This is seen by Paul's qualification of "all men" with the word "us", in verse 12. "Us" contextually and certainly refers to believers alone, for the term is used synonymously with those who are "taught by saving grace" to "look for the blessed hope". Compare this with 2 Thessalonians 1, which says that Christ comes with wrath upon those who did not trust in His gospel. They are not looking for the hope of Christ's return!

Again, Paul qualifies the term "all men" by describing them as ones who are "taught by grace which brings salvation" to "deny ungodly lusts." Paul does not say merely say that unbelievers are being taught by the word to live differently. If this were so, he could not say "all men", for the majority of mankind has never heard the scriptures say these things. Rather, Paul is describing the necessary holy effects of saving grace which directs all true converts to live according to Christian ethics.

So, to conclude, though other passages may or may not reveal aspects of God's affections and intentions towards varying groups, individuals, and humanity in general, this passage is not amongst them.

A final few notes:

"Poet" mentioned Hebrews 12:6-8, which says,

"For [b]whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth[/b], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for [b]what son is he whom the father chasteneth not[/b]? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof [b]all[/b] are partakers, then are [b]ye bastards, and not sons[/b]."

hath appeared to all men; which supposes it to have been hid, as it was, in the thoughts, purposes, and counsels of God; and in Jesus Christ, in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid; and in the covenant of grace, of which the Gospel is a transcript; and in the types and shadows of the ceremonial law: it was in some measure hid from angels, who desire to look into it, and from the Old Testament saints, to whom it was not known as it is now, by the apostles and prophets; and it was entirely hid from the Gentiles, the times of whose ignorance God overlooked: and it suggests, that it now appeared or shone out more clearly, and more largely. The Gospel had been like a candle lighted up in one part of the world, only in Judea, but now it shone out like the sun in its meridian glory, and appeared to all men; not to every individual person; it has neither shined upon, nor in everyone: it did not in the apostle's time, when it appeared the most illustrious, and shone out the most extensively, as well as the most clearly; nor has it in ages since, nor does it in ours; there are multitudes who know nothing of it, and are neither under its form nor power: but this is to be understood of all sorts of men, of every nation, of every age and sex, of every state and condition, high and low, rich and poor, bond and free, masters and servants; which sense well agrees with the context, Titus 2:2 and the words are a reason why the apostle would have duty urged on all sorts of persons, because the Gospel was now preached to all; and it had reached the hearts of all sorts of men; particularly the Gentiles may be intended from whom the Gospel was before hid, and who sat in darkness, and in the shadow of death; but now the great light shined upon them, and the Gospel was no more confined to one people only, but was preached to every creature under heaven, or to the whole creation; namely, to the Gentiles, pursuant to the commission in Mr 16:15."

We must understand why God hates sinners (God also hates sin) in the first place.

It is the natural relationship of Light with darkness -- Of a Holy God in the presence of unholiness -- Of a Consuming Fire among wood, hay, and stubble.

Yet, God is Love, God is "kind (compassionate) towards ungrateful and evil men." Thus it is "the kindness of God that leads men unto repentance." And it is that very same Love of God that burns with fierce indignation towards the hard hearted, stiff necked, unrepentant sinners.

Not because it is God's will that sinners should be destroyed, for as RobertW mentioned,

Ezekiel 33
11. Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And again,
Acts 17
30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL men EVERY WHERE to repent.

The Love of God does one of two things:

His love shall either break the heart -- a broken spirit, and a broken and contrite heart.

Or His love shall harden the heart --
John 3
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

As we draw near to Him, He shall draw near to us, thus:

If He is a Consuming Fire then He makes us ministers of flame.
If He is Light then He makes us as lights upon a hill.
If He is Love then He sheds His love abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. He who abides in love, abides in God and God in him.

Therefore, to be hard hearted against the Love of God is to automatically be destroyed by the very Spirit that comes to give Life.

It was a great surprise to me the first time the Love of God broke my heart. Up until that moment I had only known conviction of sin; I had never understood conviction of righteousness.

I hear so often about people being broken down by guilt and condemnation of sins. O God, who can stand up and testify the praises of God who breaks our hearts by righteousness, peace, and joy?

thereby [b]causing[/b] them to [u]willfully[/u] respond

Could you please explain that seeming contradiction of terms?

but then this cannot be understood of every individual person; for the Gospel has not brought salvation to everyone in any sense, not even in the external ministry of it

[b]2 Timothy 3
15. and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.[/b]

there have been multitudes who have never so much as heard the outward sound of salvation by Jesus Christ

And what of the familiar verses ...
Romans 1
15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the [b][u]gospel of Christ[/u]: for it is the power of God unto salvation[/b] to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. [b]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed (in the Gospel of Christ)[/b] from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven [b]against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (surely this must include all men)[/b], who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Mind you, Paul is speaking of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yet, when Paul begins to speak about the wrath of God revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness it is against the true knowledge of God; not specifically referring to Christ Jesus but rather the Godhead. And this is enough that all men are without excuse "[b]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.[/b]"

Hello, BoG. I'm going to bed very soon, and so will not be writing out a more thorough answer, especially as the question has been dealt with elsewhere much more completely. Please accept this effort for the mean time...

*God is not obligated to offer a way of salvation, nor is there anything in fallen man which God is impulsed to love. If God is merciful, it is because He is innately good, not because sinful man is worthy of pity.

*God has chosen to demonstrate His graciousness and glory in the gospel of Christ.

*God has made the benefits of the gospel contingent upon man's choice to receive it.

*Mankind is fallen into sin and his nature is corrupt. From his conception no man naturally desires the terms of the gospel. He will neither repent of sinfulness, nor can bring himself to have faith in Christ alone.

*Every choice a man makes flows from his nature, and is done in some way to gratify himself. Even a man who commits suicide does so to gratify his desire for escape from misery or to exact revenge. Therefore, no man has a free will, but rather a will that is subject to the inclinations of his nature. Even God's own will flows from His holy nature and for this reason He cannot will to lie. The will follows the nature.

*Therefore, God does not "force" the willful decision of men to believe the gospel, but regenerates their nature to be one that naturally and freely desires salvation on God's terms of repentance and faith.

*He performs this work in the elect only, and all of this people instantly and perpetually follow His voice: "My sheep hear my voice and follow me, another they will not hear."

*All who desire to repent and believe may do so, with the full promise of salvation. Those who repent and believe will at last discover that the source of their conversion was in the act of God which proceeded their willingness. They were saved by His gracious actions, purchased especially for them at the cross and determined from before the foundation of the world.

Dear brother Michael, I do agree my verse may be out of context. It is true it is written to believers, and its interesting you brought up that passage from Hebrews, it is the same word in the Greek. Teaching in verse twelve

[b]Teaching[/b] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

and

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he [b]chasteneth[/b], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

παιδεύω
paideuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to train children
1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
2b) of God
2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
2c1) of a father punishing his son
2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Part of Speech: verb

So we see the love of God is not all about softness and "positive". Speaking in human terms.

But what makes to me this kind of selectivity very unlogical, and not fitting with totality of scripture, is that first of all, that when one who believes this, if he is to be consistent with his belief must preach like this

"For so God loved some of you, that he sent His only son to die for a few of you, so those who he has called can come, and even if they dont come, dont worrie God has elected you and you must come even if you dont want to"

And if this is true, that God only loves a few. it would make God the author of evil. I know some of the hard core predestination followers, at least some years back believed that God caused Adam to fall so he could then show His grace and mercy and love to some.

We have many pictures of Gods love, but what God wants us to know about Him he has showed is in Jesus. So looking to Jesus we can see Gods love. Jesus did not love some more then others. He was not unfair or unjust. He said what was required to ALL to inherit eternal life, and most did not receive it. Surly Gods gift of eternal life must be received. That means a responding. And if we study how people in the NT responded to our Lords message and call. We learn many things.

God is the same, what we see in the life of Jesus is true of God. The way Jesus loved people, is exactly the same way God loves people. Else, Jesus would not be God.

So in one sense, I think the verse apply to all people, Gods grace has appeared to all men, all who have seen or heard about Jesus. Have seen Gods grace. Most walk away as the rich young ruler, grieved in their hearts because they love their own life and their sin. May it be money or anything else that keeps us from fully come to Him.

Some more for further study, some in the lines of your thinking and some that is not. But its good reading.

HAS APPEARED: Epephane (2API):

As discussed below (see phrase to all men) the following translations are not entirely accurate...

(NIV) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

(KJV) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Has appeared - "Did appear". It has shined forth. It has brought to light or shown. This is the first epiphany or the incarnation. This grace has penetrated our moral and spiritual darkness.

Clarke writes...

There is a beauty and energy in the word epiphaino, hath shined out, that is rarely noted; it seems to be a metaphor taken from the sun. As by his rising in the east and shining out, he enlightens, successively, the whole world; so the Lord Jesus, who is called the Sun of righteousness, Malachi 4:2, arises on the whole human race with healing in his wings.

Isaiah had prophesied of this appearance centuries earlier writing that...

The people who walk in darkness will see a great light. Those who live in a dark land, the light will shine on them. (Isaiah 9:2)

As Jameison rightly observes that the grace of God has appeared...

after having been long hidden in the loving counsels of God (see notes Colossians 1:26; 2 Timothy 1:9; 10). The image is illustrated in Acts 27:20 ("since neither sun nor stars appeared [epiphaino] for many days"). The grace of God hath now been embodied in Jesus, the brightness of the Father’s glory,” manifested as the “Sun of righteousness,” “the Word made flesh.” The Gospel dispensation is hence termed “the day” (see notes 1Thessalonians 5:5; 5:8; there is a double “appearing,” that of “grace” here, that of “glory,” Tit 2:13; compare Romans 13:12-note).

Grace of God has appeared - When did it appear in history? In the first century, the time of the New Testament. However the Tyndale Bible Dictionary makes the excellent point that...

The doctrine of divine grace underlies the thought of both the OT and NT. However, the OT merely anticipates and prepares for the full expression of grace that becomes manifest in the NT... Divine grace was already operative in the Garden of Eden when God responded to the debacle of the fall with the promise of redemption (Gen 3:15) and solicitous care rather than with abandonment or retributive annihilation... Divine grace becomes embodied in the person of Jesus Christ, who demonstrates visibly the dynamic nature of God’s grace and fulfills in his ministry of redemption the old covenant promises relative to God’s gracious dealings with humanity (Jn 1:14, 17).

Appeared (2014) (epiphaino from epí = upon + phaíno = to shine, English = epiphany, which some churches observe in commemoration of coming of Magi as first manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles) (Click for more detailed definition) means literally to shine upon and so to become visible and to be made clear or manifest (passive voice).

Epiphaino means to cause light to shine upon some object in the sense of illuminating it and was used of the dawning of light upon darkness.

Epiphaino is used particularly of divine interposition, especially to aid, and of the dawning of light upon darkness.

The Septuagint uses epiphaino in the famous Aaronic blessing...

Numbers 6:25 The LORD make His face shine on (epiphaino) you, And be gracious to you;

Zacharias (John the Baptist's father) filled with the Holy Spirit prophetically declared...

And you, child (John the Baptist), will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS; To give to His people the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, with which the Sunrise from on high (Speaks of the Messiah) shall visit us, TO SHINE UPON (epiphaino) THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS (Messiah's coming would be like the coming of dawn, light driving away darkness) AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH, To guide our feet into the way of peace." (Luke 1:75-79) (Comment: The coming of Jesus Christ was the light of the grace of God’s salvation dawning upon this sin-darkened world.)

In Titus 3 Paul uses epiphaino again writing that

when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit (see notes Titus 3:4; 3:5)

Epiphaino describes the sudden appearance upon the scene and was used in ancient Greece as a religious term to describe a visible manifestation of a hidden deity (especially to provide aid), either in person or by some great act through which his presence is revealed.

Hughes writes that

In Greek literature this word can function as a technical term to describe a hero (or a god) breaking into a helpless situation to rescue someone from danger. Paul typically uses this terminology to refer to the past or future coming of Christ to rescue his people (cf. Titus 2:13). When the apostle uses the same word to describe the coming of grace, he so intertwines who Christ is with what Christ provides that the two become inseparable in our consideration. Grace is not some abstract doctrine or theological construct. Grace comes as Christ does. Grace is as personal as he is. In fact, Christ is grace. The unmerited favor of God is what Jesus is about, but it is also who he is. We should thus see grace as a personal action by a personal God who saved us from our helpless condition out of pure love. (Preaching the Word - 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus: To Guard the Post.)

And so the image conveyed by epiphaino is that of grace suddenly breaking in on our moral darkness, like the rising sun or as Malachi puts it "the Sun (Son) of righteousness " rising "with healing in (His) wings" so that we those so enlightened might be empowered to "go forth and skip about like calves from the stall." (Mal 4:2)

In the Greek text, the verb epiphaino, "has appeared" is placed at the beginning of the passage to stress that the manifestation of grace is a historical reality, a fact also emphasized by use of the aorist tense which pictures a past completed action (a historical event).

Howard Zabriskie comments that epiphaino...

is an aorist indicative, and since all aorists express punctiliar action, one learns that the appearance of God’s grace here spoken of, is not a process. It may be noticed also that this aorist is ingressive. There are three kinds of aorist tenses in Greek; ingressive, constative, and effective. The ingressive aorist places the emphasis on the beginning of the action. This verb, therefore, throws light on a difficult problem. This age is called the Age of Grace and yet many see little difference between God’s dealings with man now and His dealings with man before the inception of the law. Many reason that God dealt in grace then and saved those who looked in faith to Him, just as He saves those who now believe in His Son. Faith was then the necessary prerogative to please God just as it is now. Wherein lies the difference?

The verb helps answer the question. Since it stresses point action it implies that God did something at a definite time which serves to display His grace in a manner superior to any revelation of it that had been previously given. Clearly, then, this points to the cross of Christ, for it was there that God’s grace found a display superior to that seen in all other ages. Therefore, because Christ has died and because we are living in an age this side of the cross, God can deal with us in a different manner from that in which He dealt with those living before the cross. Never before has God concluded all under sin, because of which action all who are unsaved, Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, stand on the same plane before Him. There never has been an age, before our present one, nor will one ever come again, in which God will be selecting a group from every kindred, tongue, and nation to make a people for His name. This group is being selected during this present age, and the selection is being made, not on the basis of individual merit, but purely on the basis of grace. Lastly, this age shows men that God in grace is doing for man what man in other ages has never been able to do for himself. Therefore, this is rightly called the Age of Grace. Grace is the outstanding thing that characterizes all of God’s dealings with man today. (The Discipline of Grace in Bibliotheca Sacra 93:370. April, 1936. Page 168) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!) (Ed: Don't misunderstand -- all of God's dealings in the OT were also by grace for men are ever and only saved by grace through faith, cp Abram in Genesis 15:6)

Hiebert comments that

The reference is to Christ’s entire earthly life—his birth, life, death, and resurrection. The verb epephane, from which we derive our word ‘epiphany,’ means ‘to become visible, make an appearance,’ and conveys the image of grace suddenly breaking in on our moral darkness, like the rising sun. (It is used of the sun in Acts 27:20.) Men could never have formed an adequate conception of that grace apart from its personal manifestation in Christ, in his incarnation and atonement.

Who appeared? Not simply the attribute of God's grace, but Jesus Christ Himself, grace incarnate, God’s supremely gracious gift to fallen mankind. Isaac Watts has an apropos hymn...

BEHOLD, THE GRACE APPEARS!
Play hymn

Behold, the grace appears!
The promise is fulfilled;
Mary, the wondrous virgin, bears,
And Jesus is the Child.

>>>

Don't Waste It - The prince of a small, oil-rich Asian nation was indicted for allegedly squandering $16 billion of his country's wealth. Over a 10-year period, the prince is believed to have lost huge sums through poor judgment and bad investments. His nation's High Court said that he spent $2.7 billion just on aircraft, yachts, cars, and jewelry.

While shaking my head in disbelief, I had to ask myself if I too am guilty of recklessly wasting riches—the riches of God's grace. If I have received His mercy and forgiveness yet continue to yield to sin, I am squandering His grace.

After Jesus healed a man who had been an invalid for 38 years, the Lord said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you" (John 5:14). It seems that Jesus was warning him not to waste God's healing touch on his life. Paul too pleaded with the Christians in Corinth "not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1). Indeed, God's grace should result in changed lives (Titus 2:11-12).

As God freely forgives us, His grace opens the door for us to change. How tragic it would be to fritter away a spiritual fortune instead of allowing "the riches of His grace" to transform our lives! (Ephesians 1:7). — David C. McCasland

Almighty God, Your grace impart,
Fix deep conviction on each heart;
Nor let us waste on trifling things
The life that Your salvation brings. —Anon.

To avoid disgrace, grow in grace.

BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MEN: sôtêrios pasin anthropois: (Ps 67:2,Lk 3:6,Jn 1:9, 1Ti 2:4-6, Ro 10:18,2Pe 3:9) (Ps 96:1-3;96:10 98:1-3; 117:1-2; Isa 2:2;2:3 45:22; 49:6; 52:10; 60:1-3; Mt 28:19; Mk 16:15; Lu 3:6; 24:47; Acts 13:47; Jn 1:9; Ro 10:18; 15:9-19; Eph 3:6-8; Col 1:6; 1:23 1Ti 2:4; 2Ti 4:17)

"which carries with it salvation for all men" (Darby)

The following version if taken out of context could be misinterpreted as "universalism" (all will be saved)

"For the grace of God has appeared, saving all" (New American Bible).

But even the NAS rendering is one of which the Universalist is particularly fond, craftily misinterpreting and misusing this verse to give pseudo-Scriptural support to his false doctrine that all men will be saved irrespective of their deeds. Paul's point is not that the entire world will be saved but that the message of God's grace has been made available to all people. He is showing the universal scope of salvation while the saving effect is dependent on the personal response of faith.

2. The training

Here are some other translations:

"that brings salvation has appeared to all men" (NIV)

"God's saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people" (GWT)

"For the free gift of eternal salvation is now being offered to everyone" (TLB)

Bringing salvation - The verb bringing is not present in the original Greek but is added to smooth out the English translation.

To all men- The phrase to all men may be connected either with appeared (NIV "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men") or with salvation (NAS) and grammatically either would be possible.

A D Litfin however argues that the NIV rendering...

introduces an idea foreign to the New Testament and to common sense, since the gospel itself has patently not “appeared” to all men (unless “all men” means all kinds of people and not every single person). (Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., et al: The Bible Knowledge Commentary. 1985. Victor or Logos)

Salvation (4992) (soterios from soter = savior) is an adjective which refers to that which is pertains to the means of salvation = bringing salvation, delivering, rescuing.

Soterion/soterios is used 5x: (2x Lu; 1x Acts; 1x Eph; 1x Titus)

Soterios describes the act of delivering or saving from great danger or peril and of healing, protecting and preserving. In the original Greek text here in Titus 2:11 "soterios" is an adjective meaning "saving, bringing salvation" and describes the effect of this grace as being beneficent and redemptive.

Grace brings salvation (see note Romans 3:24, Eph 2:8, 2:9, see note 2 Timothy 1:9) but it doesn't stop there, for then grace empowers the believer for daily sanctification (See discussion of sanctification at the three tenses of salvation)

Grace as used here by Paul refers both to grace to the guilty sinner (in Titus 2:11) and the gracious favor of God in its enabling power and effect, which is to be found alone in Christ (see note on this meaning of grace in 2 Timothy 2:1).

Vine writes that it is

"Only as we live in the enjoyment of the power of this grace can we devotedly and faithfully discharge the service committed to us (in 2:12). There is adequate grace to meet our every need. (cf "manifold [poikilos - variegated] grace" (see note 1Peter 4:10] for "various [poikilos - variegated, multi-colored - same word in Lxx describing Joseph's coat of "many colors"] trials" (see note 1 Peter 1:6) (Vine)

God in His mercy does not give us what we do deserve but God in His grace gives us what we don’t deserve and could never obtain without Him, so that now believers are empowered to do "good works" which we could not have done unless grace had appeared.

All the other NT uses of soterios/soterion are recorded below

(1) Luke 2:30 - Luke uses this word in his description of the encounter of Simeon and the infant Jesus, writing that

"there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, "Now Lord, Thou dost let Thy bond-servant depart In peace, according to Thy word for my eyes have seen Thy salvation (soterios) which Thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, a LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Thy people Israel." (Lu 2:25-32)

It is interesting that in the Bible's first mention of "salvation," Jacob also stated that he was waiting "for Thy salvation (Hebrew = Yeshua from which is derived the name Jesus) I wait, O LORD." (Ge 49:18). Simeon, the namesake of Jacob's second son actually saw "Thy Salvation" in the Spirit in the Person of little Jesus.

(2) Luke 3:6 - Luke again uses soterios in his description of John the Baptist's prophesy of the coming Messiah in which he declared that

"ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD." (Lu 3:6)

In both of these verses, Luke uses "salvation" as virtually synonymous with the Savior, a figure of speech known as a metonymy in which one uses the name of one thing ("salvation") for another thing (in this case "Jesus" or "Savior") of which it ("salvation") is an attribute.

(3) Acts 28:28 - Paul speaking to the Jews during his house arrest in Rome declared to them that since they had rejected the offer of salvation, it would go to the Gentiles saying

"Let it be known to you therefore, that this salvation (soterios) of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen." (Acts 28:29)

(4) Ephesians 6:17 - The last use by Paul is in describing the Christian's spiritual wardrobe...

And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Comment: The "helmet of salvation" speaks of the believer's assurance of salvation) (Ephesians 6:17)

To all men - The Greek word for "all" (pas) means all without exception. The point is that "Salvation" is available to all men but not all men will receive (believe in) Jesus as Savior. In fact Scripture teaches that most will not. There is no suggestion here or anywhere else in the Bible that everyone will eventually be saved. Universal salvation is a lie. The heart of "God our Savior...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1Ti 2:3b-4). Later in that same epistle Paul reiterated that

the living God...is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1Ti 4:10)

Howard Zabriskie explains that...

Although salvation has been bought for all men, all have not accepted it for themselves. By the death of Christ, God has provided salvation for all men and has made such provision as is necessary for the salvation of “whosoever will.” Christ’s death is a finished work in the matter of salvation, having procured redemption towards sin, reconciliation with respect to man, and propitiation towards God. Every barrier has been removed that has hindered this marvelous display of God’s grace. Thus, humanly speaking, man himself is the only hindrance to his salvation. By this explanation, the text of the American Revised Version, which is to be preferred, can be accepted and the position of the Universalist can be refuted. (The Discipline of Grace in Bibliotheca Sacra 93:370. April 36. p. 163)

Hiebert adds that this phrase ("to all men") is

descriptive of the universality of the salvation provided in Christ; it is adapted to and freely available to all men. No nation, tongue, class, or group was excluded. The atonement rendered all men saveable. This does not mean that all men will be saved, since its power actually to save is dependent upon personal faith. (Titus and Philemon, p57, Moody Press, 1957).

What does genuine salvation look like? See the clear description in the next verse. How deceptive is it to say one is saved by "believing" and then fail to show no denial of ungodliness or worldly desires and no heart for godly living. Jesus warned that many would be deceived (see notes Matthew 7:21; 7:22; 7:23). How dangerous is the cloak and garb of "religion". There are many religious men and women in hell today who "believed" and yet by their continual lawless behavior (cf 1Jn 3:9 10) they demonstrated that there had never been a circumcision of their hearts (see note Colossians 2:11).

Grace in the form of salvation is so adjusted that the one who receives it, turns from sin to serve the living God and live a holy life, for grace includes not only the bestowal of a righteousness, but the inward transformation consisting of the power of indwelling sin broken and the divine nature implanted, which liberates the believer from the compelling power of sin and makes him hate sin, love holiness, and gives him the power to love and obey the Word of God.

Kenneth Wuest comments on grace and law writing that

To be under law refers to an unsaved person who attempts to live in obedience to the law of God. To be under grace is to be a saved person who has been the subject of the surgical operation in which the power of the sinful nature has been broken and the divine nature implanted. The poet says, “Do this and live, the law commands, but gives me neither feet nor hands. A better word the gospel brings. It bids me fly and gives me wings.” Wings in Scripture, speak of supernatural power. (Wuest, K. S. Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans)

Paul sets grace against works directly in opposition to one another so far as the means of salvation is concerned (see note Romans 11:6). But Paul is very careful to make plain that good deeds naturally issue from and are required by grace (Titus 2:11, 12).

Grace! ’tis a charming sound,
Harmonious to the ear;
Heav’n with the echo shall resound,
And all the earth shall hear.

Saved by grace alone!
This is all my plea:
Jesus died for all mankind,
And Jesus died for me.”
--Poet unknown

[url=http://preceptaustin.org/titus_211-16.htm#2:11]Source[/url]

Does God love all, yes, clearly. Does he love the elect infinitely more, again, yes, clearly. Jesus' high priestly prayer says so. See John 17:22,23 where Jesus prays to the Father and affirms that the Father loves believers with the same love that he loves Jesus. Astounding! Amazing Grace. Jesus explicitly doesn't apply this notion of God's love of believers to the world.

passerby wrote:
The thinking that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell is a product of carnal mind. It is a play of the scriptures with human genius and logic.

To the faithful, God's offer of His Grace & salvation is sure with utmost sincerity, honesty, without pretense, without partiality to whosoever will have faith on Him, Jews, Greek, anybody..

Grace and Faith as simply declared in the bible and not according to the terminologies that the human beings added according to the excellency of their thinking.

I wonder, how sure are the ones who believe in limited atonement, that they are really one of the Elect?

Will they prevent themselves to enter the kingdom of God, will they prevent others also.

Human logic is very limited, the pharisees seemingly knew the scriptures very well, but when the Lord came they failed to recognize Him.

Actually there's already 1 I know that's very strong Calvinist and now is wondering whether he was ever saved to begin with.

There's also another in the Church (elder or pastor or something like that. In his testimony, he mentioned that after some time in the church, he studied Calvinism and wonder if his lukewarm attitude was because he was not one of the elect. He has been an aetheist I believe for some time already.

There's also another in the Church (elder or pastor or something like that. In his testimony, he mentioned that after some time in the church, he studied Calvinism and wonder if his lukewarm attitude was because he was not one of the elect. He has been an aetheist I believe for some time already.

This is one of the dangers of Calvinism and other forms of Arminianism, Finny-ism and other Christian doctrine that focus on areas God did not intend. What is the danger? Despair. There are other hybrid versions of doctrines that while pressing for perfection almost cause people to fail in the grace of God. I can think of a few specific horror stories along these lines.

But we need to remember that God is working towards bringing many sons unto glory. If we keep this in mind we will know that God desires that all would come to repentance. He is not willing that any should perish. This is why I worry how these conversations do not edify- they only raise more questions than they answer and generate more heat than light. Greater men that I will ever be have died debating these topics and hashing over the issues with tremendous depth and probing. I think we need to pillow our heads on John 3:16, 17.

'Learn' said,

Actually there's already 1 I know that's very strong Calvinist and now is wondering whether he was ever saved to begin with.

The same may be said of Arminians who doubt their possession of true faith, and of Second Blessing types who second guess their entry into "Canaan".

The measure of doctrine is not the abuse of it.

Did not Peter say that Paul's writings contain teachings which unlearned and unstable people twist to their destruction?

2 Peter 3:15-16
"Account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are [b]some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction[/b]."

As for this concern about "knowing if one is elect", the bible itself says, "make your calling and election sure," and, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, [b]knowing that it is God who wors in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.[/b]"

The fact is, we do not yet know our election with certitude, as if we held a certificate.

By faith and with good reason we believe we are elect because we see the fruits of our union with Christ. We sense our trust in His righteousness. We experience the Spirit progressively leading us from sin into greater degrees of sanctification. These gifts belong to believers, and believers are those God elected. At times our faith soars and can be called "the full assurance of faith." In these times we have no reason to doubt our election, for only the Elect love Christ so. Blessed assurance is like the sweet aroma of a blossom that opens in the morning, yet even in the night seasons faith, though less fragrant, is nonetheless a flower.

If we continue in faith to the end, we shall at last discover in God's presence, by His grace, that we were elect from before the foundation of the world. Then it will be a certitude.

Praise God, and may He give us grace to persevere.

But all of this discussion strays from the original subject, which is that God's filial relationship is for believers only, and it was given to them in eternity on the basis of what Christ did. Their reception of it by faith is the gift of God, according to grace.

* * *

Christian, I do not indiscriminately tell unbelievers that God loves them in the same way as He loves believers. It would be a falsehood. Christ tells believers, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", yet he will forsake those who persist in unbelief. He says, "I lay down my life for my sheep," and tells the pharisees in the same passage, "you are not my sheep, [b]therefore[/b] you do not believe."

Rather, I tell unbelievers that God is patient, and will continue to show them patience and long-suffering until He determines that their time is ended. He will carry them to judgment when and where He chooses, and He will not be held back in His wrath by any human-sentimentality. The only hope of the unbeliever is by faith to believe the promises of God that "all who come to me I shall in no wise cast out." I tell them to come immediately, without hesitation, and in doing so realize and accept that from all time God has welcomed them as His chosen people.

What else would I say? "God has accepted you because He foresaw your commendable willingness to cease from the sin of unbelief and to turn from your lifestyle of sins. Therefore you may have eternal life. Christ did not actually intend the salvation of particular persons, and secured salvation for no one, but rather purchased the right to administer a new, more lenient law; now by fulfilling the law of faith and repentance, we are accepted of Him."

That, my brother, is no gospel.

Theopenlife,

I do not believe that any camp has it totally right--Arminian, Calvinist etc.

I believe 3x God has shown me that the answer is somewhere between Arminian and Calvinist when it comes to 'the election issue'. I don't believe that it was my own effort/emotions/etc that misled me into thinking what God show especially not the 2nd inccident because I could not have possibly caused/faked it.

Even without the above paragraph,no matter what Calvinists say, I see that its not logical, no matter how Calvinists want to phrase it as logical. I'm not saying that its foreknowledge that causes God to chose certain people over another. I do not know what's the method God choses as it has not been declared in the bible, but it seems that Calvinists just want to impose certain restrictions on God by denying that humans have a part to play in this matter. Pls note that in no way, by this statement, am I denying God is sovereign or elevating/glorifying humans as Calvinists tend to claim for those who don't believe as they do.

Jesus' high priestly prayer says so. See John 17:22,23 where Jesus prays to the Father and affirms that the Father loves believers with the same love that he loves Jesus. Astounding! Amazing Grace. Jesus explicitly doesn't apply this notion of God's love of believers to the world.

You are mistaken sir. I am familiar with Jesus' priestly prayer.

John 17
23. "and that [b]the world may know[/b] that thou hast sent me and hast loved them as thou hast loved me."

"and hast loved them as thou hast love me" -- this is specifically applied to the world, not only those who are saved.

To put it straight-forward: If the world will not recognize the love God has for them then God will have His love for the world recognized through those who are one with Him.

Does God love all, yes, clearly. Does he love the elect infinitely more, again, yes, clearly.

Infinitely more? For God SO LOVED [u]the world[/u] that He gave His only begotten Son ...

There is no way to love the "elect" more than this and this is the same love God has given to all.

The only difference being that the "elect" are those who enter in to be partakers of this love. As opposed to being infinitely loved without abiding in God.

the living God...is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1Ti 4:10)

An excellent comparison. God is the Savior of all men; yet, He is especially the Savior of believers because they shall be saved from their sins. The difference between "Potential" Savior and "Kinetic" Savior, as we might say: if you are familiar with Physics.

Howard Zabriskie explains that...

Although salvation has been bought for all men, all have not accepted it for themselves. By the death of Christ, God has provided salvation for all men and has made such provision as is necessary for the salvation of “whosoever will.” Christ’s death is a finished work in the matter of salvation, having procured redemption towards sin, reconciliation with respect to man, and propitiation towards God. Every barrier has been removed that has hindered this marvelous display of God’s grace. Thus, humanly speaking, man himself is the only hindrance to his salvation.

Beautifully explained, if I do say so.

Hiebert adds that this phrase ("to all men") is

descriptive of the universality of the salvation provided in Christ; it is adapted to and freely available to all men. No nation, tongue, class, or group was excluded. The atonement rendered all men saveable. This does not mean that all men will be saved, since its power actually to save is dependent upon personal faith. (Titus and Philemon, p57, Moody Press, 1957).

Well said.

Grace in the form of salvation is so adjusted that the one who receives it, turns from sin to serve the living God and live a holy life, for grace includes not only the bestowal of a righteousness, but the inward transformation consisting of the power of indwelling sin broken and the divine nature implanted, which liberates the believer from the compelling power of sin and makes him hate sin, love holiness, and gives him the power to love and obey the Word of God.

I would disagree on one point here: "which liberates the believer from the compelling power of sin and [b]makes[/b] him hate sin ... etc."

It still isn't proper to say "makes" him hate sin for we know by our own consciences that this is not true.

"and [b]gives[/b] him the power to love and obey the Word of God"

This is more accurate to say. Therefore, "and gives" him the power to will against sin and love holiness and to love and obey the Word of God.

the power of the sinful nature has been broken and the divine nature implanted

We know that it is impossible for "the divine nature" to be successfully implanted unless it is first united with faith in the hearers. When this implantation occurs it breaks (interrupts) the power of sinful nature, as it is written, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Thus, our escape is faith in Him who has promised, for He is able to perform it. And our faith acts in accordance to His power, that is, in resisting the devil (the devil), fleeing from temptation (the world), abstaining from sexual immorality (the flesh), etc..

In one instance we stand (for having done all to stand, stand), in another we flee, and in another we put to death the deeds of the flesh. So we see that grace gives us the power to stand or flee those things in the world, wherein "vengenace is Mine," sayeth the Lord, and likewise, those things in ourselves that we must ourselves put to death in loving obedience (faithfullness) to His Nature -- "he must first deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

For the reality is the partaking of the Divine Nature, as compared to implanting. God gives and we eat and grow in grace (if we are faithful stewards) and repeat. Implanting may get the seed in our hearts through faith but only through partaking shall the seed spring forth and bear fruit after its own kind (faith).

It has appeared to me with great emphasis lately. As this same and similar themes have been a frequent discussion in fellowship and prayer. Particularly concerning "election" and "predestination" revealing our understanding of God's Love.

The common verse is "God's word shall not return void to Him, but shall accomplish that for which it was sent." The principle being implied that God created the world so that He shall have a people who will worship Him in spirit and truth. Just as Christ has been slain from before the foundations of the world, so also has God chosen those who shall love Him and be the "elect", by Grace, as theopenlife previously mentioned.

The problem with this understanding of God's Love is in the following:

Matthew 6
1. Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4. That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

This is also true when God "doest thine" Grace (that old english, I love it).

To imply that God created the world or sent His Son to die for the world SO THAT the world [b]shall[/b] love Him is very simply summed in this very common understanding: "selfishness."

If we are to give without expecting anything in return, so also does God give without any expectation or requirement of return. For it is written, "God loves a cheerful (charitable) giver." Thus, if God created a world full of people "upon which He set His affections" then He did so without expecting to be loved in return. And, Jesus came into this world, sent of the Father, died and resurrected and ascended and poured out His Holy Spirit for the salvation of all men without expecting any to be saved.

In this way, we understand that such commandments, "thou shalt love the Lord thy God and serve Him only," is not a matter of expectation (law) but of faith resulting in Life.

We know indeed that many shall love Him and many shall be saved but not because it was "impulsed" to be so if God first loved us (that is to say so that His word shall not return void). But for the reason that God "overcomes evil with good" -- "God is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

To imply that there MUST be saved souls and that we MUST love Him because of the Love of God revealed in Jesus, the Christ, is completely contrary to the Spirit of Life. Just as theopenlife also mentioned,

*God is not obligated to offer a way of salvation, nor is there anything in fallen man which God is impulsed to love. If God is merciful, it is because He is innately good, not because sinful man is worthy of pity.

So in this manner, man is not obligated to accept salvation, nor is there anything in God which man is "impulsed" (sudden, involuntary inclination prompting to action) to love (even after being born-again).

'Learn', thank you for the continuing dialogue.

If I may say, you are mistakenly burning a straw man when you state that Calvinists believe "humans play no part in the matter." This is not so. The part man plays is to willfully reject the gospel if and when it comes to him, unless God's grace super-abounds to save him. "[b]No man comes unto me except the Father draws him[/b], and I [b]shall[/b] raise [b]him[/b] up on the last day". Not all people who hear the gospel are drawn in this special way or else "all" would be raised to eternal life on the day of judgment!

Why do most who hear the gospel not come? Because "men loved darkness rather than light, and do not come to the light... for their deeds are evil." Yet some, by God's effectual grace, repent and believe. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Note the order of divine ordination and subsequent belief. We believe God has ordained to give grace that is is victorious in freeing the heart from the moral bondage to sin which willfully restrains him from repentance and belief.

As well, you mentioned the concept of being "somewhere in between" the two positions. May I comment on that, having one said the same myself?

You may recall the infamous passage in 1 Chronicles 20 which begins,"it came to pass... at the time when kings go out to battle... David tarried at Jerusalem." As the doctrinal camps begin preparing for their regular warfare, without fail there seems to be someone loitering back at the castle, looking for an easy way out of the fight. I have heard many diplomatic brothers announce with irenic tones, "I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian."

In most cases these persons are trying to avoid contention in the body, which of itself is commendable on their part; however I submit that these have not realized how important an error their pacifism lets live. They are like Saul, who killed his thousands of lesser opponents but spared Agag. I hear Elijah crying, "How long halt ye between two opinions?" [1 Kings 18:21] They may say, "I do not know which I am," or "I choose not to discuss the issue," but claiming one is neither Calvinist nor Arminian reveals either apathy or ignorance, both of which are unbecoming of Christians regarding such paramount points of the Faith.

Of all subjects, the disagreement between Calvinism and Arminianism is not one which offers a third side. To quote the oft-quoted Charles Spurgeon, "Calvinism is nothing more than the Gospel." By Calvinism, Spurgeon is not referring to all of the diverse things John Calvin taught, but specifically to the Five Points spelled out at the Synod of Dort, which Calvinists believe to be consistent with the bible.

With all love, I will remind everyone that I once halted between the two, but now see the impossibility of maintaining such a nonexistent stance.

Either you do or do not believe in unconditional election, which is not based upon any foreseen works, choices, or merit, but is solely decreed out of God's mysterious love in Christ for specific individuals.

Either you do or do not believe in the depravity of man, which is his unchangeable unwillingness to ever repent unto faith unless he is first regenerated by God's Spirit.

Either you do or do not believe in irresistible grace, which is the "inward call" given to the "few chosen" which "quickens them to life that were dead in trespasses and sins", changing them into "new creations" through "birth of the Spirit"; and is more than the common call of grace which is always willfully resisted and finally rejected by those who have not been elected.

Either you do or do not believe in particular redemption, which affirms that Christ's death brought certain benefits for all and is offered to all, but which also redeemed the elect to receive the effectual grace necessary to salvation, who were chosen unconditionally according to grace before time. [Isa 53, John 16 & 17, Hebrews 1&10]

Either you do or do not believe in the perseverance and preservation in faith of the saints, which confirms that one-hundred percent of those who are born again will be glorified with Christ at the resurrection of the just, nor will any of them ever finally apostatize from the faith.[John 6, Romans 8] Those who apostatize were false converts and were never born again. [1 John 2.]

Carefully and honestly considered, these points stand and fall together, with *perhaps* some disagreement regarding Particular Redemption, though most reformed individuals will stress that there is no real argument - five points, or no points.

My purpose is not to be contentious, but to disperse the ambiguity which adds to confusion. If you can say you believe in at least four of the points, you are accepted as a Calvinist. Anything less and by default you are, without another option, Arminian.

The only hope of the unbeliever is by faith to believe the promises of God

"by faith to believe"?

Is that like having faith to have faith?

Christ did not actually intend the salvation of particular persons, and secured salvation for no one, but rather purchased the right to administer a new, more lenient law; now by fulfilling the law of faith and repentance, we are accepted of Him.

This is a curious statement of you to say "is no gospel."

"Christ did not actually intend the salvation of particular persons ... but rather purchased the right to administer a new, more lenient law; now by fulfilling the law of faith and repentance, we are accepted of Him"

James 3
17. But the wisdom that is from above is [b]first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated (I assume this is like "a new, more lenient law")[/b], full of mercy and good fruits, [b]without partiality (that is particular persons)[/b], and without hypocrisy.

"but rather purchased the right to administer a new, more lenient law"

What exactly are you implying by a new, more lenient law?

Matthew 11
28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

And we know this is not contrary to the Sermon on the Mount, containing the Beatitudes (which in truth is, humanly speaking, a more strict "law" for it begins in the heart).

"now by fulfilling the law of faith and repentance, we are accepted of Him"

Mark 1
14. ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: [b]repent ye, and believe the gospel[/b].

Acts 10
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, [b]is accepted with him[/b].

"God has accepted you because He foresaw your commendable willingness"

I would not readily agree with this statement (given many ways to interpret this). But that rather when you did indeed "cease from the sin of unbelief and to turn from your lifestyle of sins."

How exactly is this not part of the Gospel message of Christ?

In most cases these persons are trying to avoid contention in the body, which of itself is commendable on their part; however I submit that these have not realized how important an error their pacifism lets live. They are like Saul, who killed his thousands of lesser opponents but spared Agag. I hear Elijah crying, "How long halt ye between two opinions?" [1 Kings 18:21] They may say, "I do not know which I am," or "I choose not to discuss the issue," but claiming one is neither Calvinist nor Arminian reveals either apathy or ignorance, both of which are unbecoming of Christians regarding such paramount points of the Faith.

This is a very dangerous statement. You are implying that one or the other of these is right and not giving place that they may both be in error. I say I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, yet I am not halting between two opinions; for these two opinions are not in my mind but being imposed without me. I am settled, insofar, as I have light to understand and you know well that I am not a pacifist or ignorant about this.

My purpose is not to be contentious, but to disperse the ambiguity which adds to confusion. If you can say you believe in at least four of the points, you are accepted as a Calvinist. Anything less and by default you are, without another option, Arminian.

I guess in this way I would be Calvinist myself, for I agree with all 5-points; yet, I disagree with the [b]entirety[/b] concluded and proposed by every one of the 5-points (TULIP). That being I agree in part to the explanations of the points rather than the proposed summations.

theopenlife wrote:
'Learn', thank you for the continuing dialogue.

If I may say, you are mistakenly burning a straw man when you state that Calvinists believe "humans play no part in the matter." This is not so. The part man plays is to willfully reject the gospel if and when it comes to him, unless God's grace super-abounds to save him. "[b]No man comes unto me except the Father draws him[/b], and I [b]shall[/b] raise [b]him[/b] up on the last day". Not all people who hear the gospel are drawn in this special way or else "all" would be raised to eternal life on the day of judgment!

Theopenlife,

I'm familiar with Calvinist doctrine on 'man's ability' although I did not phrase it very well in my earlier post (sorry, don't really want to go through the whole jargon for Calvinist but I do understand it very clearly). I've read countless articles, posts on Calvinists (from Calvinist websites/forums etc) I know (shortened it) that Calvinist will say its man's responsibility to come to God but if he's totally depraved, then he will not (have edited cannot to will not--as this is the standard Calvinist reply ie will not and not cannot) come to God if he's not elected as God will not open his heart to accept God.

I've even heard several times Paul Washer's viewpoint/sermon on Calvinism (he's Calvinist). I'm going to paraphrase and highlight some parts of Paul's sermon here as I can't remember word for word. Paul Washer in describing total depravity and God's election, says that God has to first yank the chain, open the curtain, open the eyes and then take out the heart of stone and put in the heart of flesh (edit to include :the changing of heart is so that the elect will want to accept God) for those that He elects so that the elect will want to choose Him. Paul Washer continues to say that when Calvinists made a point that since people are totally depraved and hence cannot come to God, then others will say how can man/non-elect be guilty--and this is a valid point according to Paul Washer. However, he then goes on to say the below. He said that for those not elected, they refused (ie will not) to accept God --they are not helpless beings as many Calvinists fail to explain clearly (he gave the example of Joseph's brothers who could not speak a kind word to him although they had mouths). Thus, God will judge them (the non elect) for not coming to him.

Huh! Paul Washer seems to contradict himself here. I respect Paul a lot, but on this, I just do not agree with. Since God did not draw them to Him, how could the non-elect be guilty since they are totally depraved, and hence cannot love God and come to Him. There's a judgement seat at the end, so these people are cast into hell because they will not come to God (as God has not drawn them, so these non-elect hate God). Judgement seat is to judge the people. How can a person be judged on something he has no say/control in? If he has hatred for God (because his heart has not been changed by God since he is non-elect), then according to Calvinist, he's still at fault. Yes--sin deserves hell....but he has no desire to come to God to cleanse him of the sins since God did not draw him

These doctrines--Arminian, Calvinist--are all man made doctrines and not fully representative of the bible. To say then that Calvinist is the gospel, I believe is erroneous. Also, to say that one has to choose a side, sorry I just don't buy it. Especially since to me, neither fully represents the full facts of the bible.

Plus, there is basically almost zero chance for you or anyone to convince me to believe Calvinism based on your arguements unless God shows me otherwise (because as I mentioned earlier, 3x God has shown me the answer is certainly not Calvinism).

Good luck in your quest trying to convince people. However, I would caution you that is it really necessary?

(I think that hardly any people here will deny that God grants salvation and that regeneration is a supernatural act of God. Also, we are certainly not saying that God is wrangling his hands waiting for us to say 'yes' to him--we all know that's not true. We know all we can do is plead with Him and wait for Him to give us the Holy Spirit etc--we do not dictate the time or place when the Holy Spirit will come upon us. Plus, we are not argueing that God does not do the electing and predestination, drawing of people etc. We just don't agree with Calvinist trying to limit God's way to preclude certain things etc. There's seemingly a contradiction between God's election and man's responsibility--and its because I guess we are not supposed to know how it 'works together' or we are just not capable of knowing it. ).

These Calvinist/Arminian posts are very divisive and will harm many people (especially those that are new or not very sure as to their salvation etc). Plus, whether one believes that God loves people equally or not etc will not cause them to lose their salvation. Lastly, let's not be so caught up in doctrine, rather use the time that we are allocating for this to bringing more people to Jesus or helping others out in other areas for example health, old folks etc.

People like John Wesley, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer are all not Calvinists. Yet we pretty much am certain that they are going to Heaven and that they are elect. Pls reconsider whether bringing up all these divisive topics actually help believers and non-believers alike or will they cause more harm than good. The time spent on this can be used for better purpose and more edifying things.
There have been plenty of discussions on Calvinism etc. Those interested can search for it. People much wiser and certainly closer to God such as John Wesley, Whitefield, Ravenhill etc have differeing views and cannot agree, what more of us.

Have edited it later to be more in line with Calvinist doctrine

BoG: I respectfully don't agree with your interpretation of John 17:23. The "them" referenced in the verse is clearly referring back to verse 20 and to believers. Throughout chapter 17 the world is distinguished from the love of God and the application of the prayer of Jesus. In no way do I see the High Priestly Prayer applying to the world other than in a negative sense. Please explain another interpretation of John's use of the world other than appears to me throughout the context of the chapter.

The question is simple: Did Jesus die for all sinners?

If you believe in limited atonement then we shall not agree on this, not at all.

If the Father sent His Son to die for all sinners then the Father loves all sinners just as He loves His Son, as it is written, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." If it were not so then He would not have paid such a high cost. God knew the cost, He counted it, and paid the price with the blood of His Son. Thus it stands to reason that God considers the value of a dying sinner to be comparable to the blood of His Son.

There is no need to question whether we are actually worth the high cost of Jesus' blood; just as we would not question whether we would even think to pay a million dollars for a putrid worm. But if God paid this price for us then He must love us, at the very least, equal to the amount of the cost He paid.

[b]Is it not true that the Good Shepherd shall leave the 99 to seek and save the one lost?[/b] If we were to take this reference concerning God's love then we might (mistakenly) say that God loves the lost sinners more than the righteous!

So even if we disagree whether or not the translation gives the interpretation as I have made it, it is still Scriptural to say it does.

And as for the verse itself,

I went and picked up my interlinear bible and this passage was given in the following way:

23. I in them, and you in Me, that they may be perfected in one, and that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them, even as You loved Me.

(Note the usage of punctuations, especially commas.)

I will unhesitantly say I am no scholar in Greek, but I also notice that the flow of the words in the Greek show the same inference.

The direct translation goes like this:

"that they may be one, as We one are; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, and that may know the world that You Me sent and loved them even as Me You loved."

Matthew 5
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the Golden Rule,
Luke 6
31. "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.

[b]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?[/b]

How do you believe this applies to the relationship between God and the sinner (before Judgment)?

P.S.
Forgive me if I am a little slow :-P

I forgot this very reference that I have saved onto my desktop.

Ezekiel 36:22-23
"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; [b]and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.[/b]"

Compare this passage in Ezekiel to John 17:17-24

boG:
I think that we may agree on something that you think we disagree on. God does love all people; he is a God of love. I am trying to communicate that His love for those who are His children ( a group only He knows and has always known....this whether you believe in sovereign grace or in free will ) is much greater than those who are not His children. If you merely look at Paul and Peter's descriptions in their epistles of the lavish grace and love God pours out on the believer or elect, this should be plainly evident. I am attempting to point out the point of view that magnifies the love of God to the elect, not detract from or diminish the love God has for the world. God has varying degrees of love yet all is love. God does love His enemies which all unbelievers are yet for those who are born again as sons, there is apparently a quantam leap in the quality of love for His children. You could hold that this love is available, potentially, to all. I believe, rather, that this love is held and expressed for the elect chosen before the foundtion of the world.

God has varying degrees of love yet all is love.

I would disagree with this. I do not see God having varying degrees but rather varying expressions of One Love. Just as a variety of gifts but the Same Spirit.

I heard a sociology professor one time, speaking of "love." He described it like a tennis match.

When I hit the ball over in to your court and you hit it back: that is "love."

I definitely did not agree at all. This is not describing Love but is instead speaking of "relationship." The world's selfish "love" of you scratch my back and I scratch yours and this is "love."

Likewise, the varying degree of God's love, Who is Love, is a degree of intimacy in relationship rather than how much God loves you.

I guess we might say it is like learning about a new machine. Unless you are knowledgable to all the functions and depth of understanding it just seems like "less than it is."

yes.

i know that looking at early apostolic doctrine is not a "End All Be All", but it does give us some insight into what the early Church believed about these matters..

pretty interesting stuff.... :-)

phil