losing your salvation?

I believe that you cannot lose your salvation.Interested in hearing feedback.

Well, a belated welcome to the website, brother or sister. Can't tell with a name like that.

As for your question, may I ask, why you believe that salvation cannot be lost. Thanks.

I don't believe you can "lose" it, but I do think that you can choose to leave it.

Maybe salvation can't be lost-but Holy Scripture is perfectly clear:

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, [b]we[/b] shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If we deny him, he also will deny us before the Father-whether you call that "loosing salvation" or "leaving salvation" the outcome is pretty clear that at that state Christ will deny that person before the Father. Also if any man draws back from faith, God's soul shall have NO pleasure in that man, which to me, is also quite clear that this individual would not receive his before expected end of salvation, but rather perdition as verse 39 speaks of.

If you want to go according to the Bible you cannot lose your salvation. Everyone is reading everything out of context who believe you can lose it, they think it all depends on you to either stay or leave. Let me tell you something, if it depended on us we would leave. But the holy spirit is what keeps us going and growing and convicting. It is not on what we do but what God is doing. If you decide to leave christ after becoming saved, i gues the only thing we could say is that they were never saved. See when you come to christ, Jesus made it clear that we must be fully surrendered in our heart to him, not lukewarm or partially, but fully devoted in their repentance and their wanting to serve christ. Now when the holy spirit comes after that, you our sealed by the holy spirit unto the day of redemption. It says do not grieve the holy spirit during that time. You have become a new creation and God will finish the good work he started in you, not you started in you. Being saved has nothing to do with our getting ourselves to the end because it is the holy spirit that helps us perservere to the end. Read about the seed that fell onto the thorns, the rocks, and the bad soil, then read about the one that fell onto good soil. That is an example of someone truly repenting and coming to saving faith and what does the parable say, he produces like a hundred fold and more. You look at what the disciple John says in first John when he is talking of people who were with them who left. His explanation is that they were never one of us from the beginning, they were decievers or lukewarm.

18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I wonder if there are any ex-Christians at the great white throne judgement?

David

Just to clarify...

What do you think are the circumstances of a person who truly believed in Christ...repented of his sins in tears...completely changed in word, actions and deeds...worked in ministry (evangelism)...prayed and studied the Word of God with daily passion and zeal for over 20 years...told others about his faith...but slowly yet surely fell into temptation via gross, unrepentent sin? This person actually died in his sins (drunk driving with a prostitute in his car).

What is the end of such a person?

Do you think that this person that this person was "never truly saved?" Do you think that this person "lost" his salvation? Do you think that this person is actually "saved?"

A better question is whether or not it is possible for a person who has truly repented -- and truly known and walked with God -- to ever fall back into willful sin. Will such a person be held accountable in Eternity for ultimately deciding to give in to temptation?

:-(

I havent come to a final belif on this, i see truths in both, but i think i see in scripture clear indications one can be saved at one point, but the eternal end of that person is lost forever.

concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?

i have many times looked at it and it is a sobering part of scripture.

also other parts, like in hebrews where the writer says and warns us to be like the unbeliving murmuring jews in the desert, so the same thing dont happend to us.

do we belive those verses ? do we understand them rightly?

Hi hmmmhmmm...

concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?

i have many times looked at it and it is a sobering part of scripture.

also other parts, like in hebrews where the writer says and warns us to be like the unbeliving murmuring jews in the desert, so the same thing dont happend to us.

do we belive those verses ? do we understand them rightly?

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

a horrible fate for the lost

But this is for the redeemed;

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Man! that is awesome!

David

Ive been thinking on this topic a little lately. A real quick synopsis of where im at with this. I think the question is the wrong question to ask. let me explain.

the better question is.... who is saved?
If you are saved you are going to heaven.
if not your going to hell.

lets be careful not to be dogmatic about this topic. i believe scripture teaches both, and its hard to reconcile the two just like sovereignty/free will. you can disagree with me on this because i know people have serious convictions with this topic.
anyway just wanted to share what i thought, and hopefully we will all be encouraged to know we are saved if we abide in Him, and hope we are rebuked if we are not abiding in Him.
Amen.

I will say this, but you need to listen clearly. For you to even come to christ it has to be the father's drawing you to him. So even our decision and us coming to Christ is still God, we would not and could not come to God without his drawing. We would continue on in our sin and never care about the things of God or ever repent. When we our truly saved we have the holy spirit, the holy spirit will keep us continuing in the faith until the end. It will not be us, but the holy spirit willing it to happen because we our children of the living God. We only perservere because of God. I'm not a calvinist but that is what the Bible teaches. If you our doubting your salvation, either you our not saved or satan is messing with you. remember the Bible says that the spirit bears witness that we our saved and that we our children of God. If you our unsure, then cry and pray to god about it. Repent of all your sins, repent of what we have done to God by our sins. Trust Jesus to save you of your sins. But remember you need to fully surrender your will and life over to Christ, not half hearted or lukewarm surrender. You need to surrender everything of you to Jesus, everything.

Sinning willfully would be to deny Christ and continue in your sins without a sacrifice or pardon for them. Their is no sacrifice anymore after Christ.Rejecting the holy spirit.

Well if you have read the scriptures in corinthians where the man that continued in sin who would not repent, was given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. His rewards would be lost but his soul would be saved. That christian couple in acts who lied to the holy spirit after being saved, were dropped dead, did they lose their salvation, no. BUt they did the sin unto death, physical death. This is not a works salvation based on what we do, it was all done on calvary already, that is why Jesus said it is finished. It is based on what Jesus did, not what we do. So all of you who believe you can lose your salvation by doing certain sins, believes that you have apart of salvation and that the good works you do as a christian and abiding in christ by good works is the basis for our salvation. Thats not what the scripture says. Its by the work of Jesus Christ. If you continue in repeated sin the holy spirit will convict, will bring you down until you repent, give you over to satan, or even a sudden death. You lose rewards but not your salvation. You our sealed unto the day of redemption. Another thing, goats, dogs, and pigs in the bible is someone who is not saved in the first place. So in peter if the dog turns back to his own vomit, then what does that mean? It was not a sheep then a dog. But a dog and always a dog until it was revealed he was a dog the whole time. It talks in the gospel of john how nobody can pluck us out of the fathers hands, not even ourselves. Jesus said he would not lose any that the father had given him.

i agree creed 19, you either our a false convert or truly saved. I recommend listening to sermons by ray comfort, paul washer, paris reidhead. For any of you think you can lose your salvation.

I too have not come to a really firm conclusion on this. Have some views yes, but not completely firm up and may change.

Always wondered 'what the destruction of the flesh is when turned over to the devil'. Any takers? Thanks

I havent come to a final belif on this, i see truths in both, but i think i see in scripture clear indications one can be saved at one point, but the eternal end of that person is lost forever.

concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?

I do not believe the lampstand is symbolic of salvation. I believe it is representative of the local ‘institutional’ church at Ephesus, and it is being threatened with a disciplinary act of judgment. He does not say the flame will be extinguished, He says the stand will be removed.

A generation had passed in Ephesus since Paul was with them. The Ephesian Christians did not have their initial consuming zeal and fervent love relationship. After their original love relationship faded, the Ephesians continued to work as they had from the beginning. Their attitude changed from love to duty.

For Jesus to remove a church’s lampstand would mean the church would cease to be a church. Indeed, the Ephesian church did not continue as a body, and its members were dispersed, although I don't believe this means they were no longer Christians.

my 2 cents

Always wondered 'what the destruction of the flesh is when turned over to the devil'. Any takers?

Hello brother.

Good question. I have not the answer, but may be able to shed a little light.

Some say the “destruction of the flesh” here refers to physical death.

Others say it is a casting out of the church into the world of sin and debauchery to reap the consequences of rebellion. This would hopefully cause such physical/emotional distress that the disobedient would repent.

And as we all well know, some have used it as a pretext for a physical purging of the church of ungodly members (e.g., in the use of the death penalty). ‘Christian’ history is saturated with the blood of those whom it considered “heretics.”

Good question. I look forward to reading the responses.

Relpy to all

The right question for us to ask ourselves
Am I still in rebellion?

Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

Eddie

tjservant wrote:

Always wondered 'what the destruction of the flesh is when turned over to the devil'. Any takers?

Hello brother.

Good question. I have not the answer, but may be able to shed a little light.

Some say the “destruction of the flesh” here refers to physical death.

Others say it is a casting out of the church into the world of sin and debauchery to reap the consequences of rebellion. This would hopefully cause such physical/emotional distress that the disobedient would repent.

And as we all well know, some have used it as a pretext for a physical purging of the church of ungodly members (e.g., in the use of the death penalty). ‘Christian’ history is saturated with the blood of those whom it considered “heretics.”

Good question. I look forward to reading the responses.

Thanks.

but if saying one can never lose salvation, then it should be in theory possible to once be saved and then in theory live a life full of sin and never once read a bible, never once pray, never once go and fellowship with believers.

Now i know this may seem foolish thinking, any born again christian would have a desire to live for Christ and a life that suits the profession and walk worthy of that.

But in theory, it would be possible.

I also find it strange, why would Paul and all the others write all those epistles to other believers, exhorting them, warning them and so on, if it dident really matter salvation wise?

seem like a waste of time and effort when they are in no danger anyway?

But if there is a small chance it is possible, it makes more sense, and we can find many scriptures that indicate, we can interpret them differently and have different opinions. I see two extremes, one is the calvinist extreme, not all calvinist agree, but once saved always saved because it not what we or how we live that counts only what God has done so if i am elect, it does not matter how much i sin because God has chosen me, and the other side who always live in fear of losing their salvation and never have peace with God. Trying to please God with works and earning their salvation

I think the case is somewhere in the middle.

But the reasoning that we see much is due to this teaching i think, once saved always saved has a huge part of Christianity living carnal thinking they are saved because they once accepted Jesus.

after reading what i have written, and thinking about it, two scriptures comes to mind

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

and

He is able....

Yah that does sound quite ridiculuous for christian to now be able to just walk in sin because he is saved, why is that because if he has the holy spirit, he hates sin, he hates being disobedient to God. He has become a new creature and the spirit of god has awaken him. What does it mean to walk in the Lord in fear and trembling. It has nothing to do with losing your salvation, but all with serving God in holiness all the time and renewing your mind in christ so we can be great witnesses to the unbelievers so they might come to Christ. Realize this that our sin is what is sending us to hell, now when your born again and you realize that you have been saved from your sins and now you our being disobedient to the one who has saved you. You our rebelling against God everytime you sin. You our offending the almighy everytime you sin, it should make you fearful and tremble that you have sinned against a holy God, but we have someone we can go to , Jesus Christ everytime we slip and sin. But, remember if you believe it depends on us perserving you believe in works salvation.

Hi tjservant...

I do not believe the lampstand is symbolic of salvation. I believe it is representative of the local ‘institutional’ church at Ephesus, and it is being threatened with a disciplinary act of judgment. He does not say the flame will be extinguished, He says the stand will be removed.

A generation had passed in Ephesus since Paul was with them. The Ephesian Christians did not have their initial consuming zeal and fervent love relationship. After their original love relationship faded, the Ephesians continued to work as they had from the beginning. Their attitude changed from love to duty.

For Jesus to remove a church’s lampstand would mean the church would cease to be a church. Indeed, the Ephesian church did not continue as a body, and its members were dispersed, although I don't believe this means they were no longer Christians.

First of all, the Church had been instructed that they "left your first love." This goes against the notion that a "saved" person could never leave Christ. Yet this passage says that someone who is/was part of the Body of Christ could FORSAKE his/her first love. So, yes, it is possible for someone who has known and fellowshipped with Christ to forsake Him.

But even if you think that a Church cannot lose its place as a "Church" -- what of the Church of Laodicea? Consider these words:

Revelation chapter 3...

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I suppose the bottom line, in my opinion, is that "the soul who sins will die." I don't believe that this means that we are condemned to Hell with every mistake, sin or giving in to temptation. I believe that the grace and love of God woo us back to repentance. Yet I think that there is something telling about the words given to each of the Churches of Revelation.

2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

2:17 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

2:25 "But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

"To him who overcometh..."

Our Lord spoke these things to the Churches (not potential members of the Body). When/How do we overcome? Is it when we "call upon the name of the Lord?" Or is it something different? Do we need to [u]remain[/u] faithful until the end?

I just can't agree that a one time decision to follow Christ is all that God requires. I have known individuals who have called upon the Lord who fell by the wayside, were choked by the cares of this world, or who simply were caught into temptation -- even after following the Lord humbly and wholeheartedly for many years. I have even known ministers who have "returned to their vomit" via the temptation that is always before us.

My question, which usually goes unanswered in these sort of discussions, is simple:

What is the end of a man who truly calls upon the Name of the Lord, follows Him wholeheartedly, prays and seeks His face, yet later falls back into the arms of this world by giving into temptation and willful sin? Is such a person "saved and eternally secure?" Are we so audacious as to claim that such a man was "never truly saved?"

Or can we conclude that real salvation is ultimately best viewed through the eyes of Eternity (from the outside looking in)? Remember, God is not confined to our earthly limits of time. He "knows the end from the beginning." He knew us before we were conceived. He already knows our ultimate destiny -- yet provides the opportunity to everyone who will call upon Him at any time.

Perhaps if we better understood the exact nature of what "salvation" is or means, we might be able to better perceive the pros and cons of the "lose it or can't lose it" debate?

Well if you have read the scriptures in corinthians where the man that continued in sin who would not repent, was given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. His rewards would be lost but his soul would be saved

Frankly, I don't believe that's what Paul meant. The Bible doesn't teach that we'll only lose our rewards, but not salvation.

I wuld say to your question is that if he is saved, the Lord will bring him out of that sin sooner or later even if it takes health problems, or things to go completely wrong in his life if he ignores the continued conviction. The Lord will bring him back. Remember when a righteous man falls he gets back up 7 times, when the wicked fall they keep falling. Their is a difference between a saved person and a unbeliever. The holy spirit abides and will change them and lives in them and is always speaking. You must have not been around many true whole hearted, 24/7 christians. Who have the joy and peace and live their whole life for God. I believe you need to really discern between a true christian who is true from his mouth, mind, heart and soul about ghis faith. And discern between the false convert who or professing christian who shows you by their mout and even possibly their works but they don't really know Jesus and our not born again. Come on guys you our making that which is holy to be taken over by the unholy after it comes to abide within, your all teaching and believing a works salvation. Oh, and when it says that the man was given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that their soul could be saved even though by fire.

Here is a website that i go on answering that verse about giving over to satan.

Q: In 1 Cor 5:1, why was Paul disfellowshipping the man but not the woman? Was this a double standard?
A: While scripture is silent on the woman, Paul might have said nothing about her because she never claimed to be a Christian.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.514 has an interesting sidenote. A man having intimate relations with his mother or father’s wife was not only against Old Testament Law (Leviticus 18:8 and Deuteronomy 22:22), it was also against Roman Law (Cicero Cluentes 6:15 and the Institutes of Gaius 1:63).

Q: In 1 Cor 5:5, what does "delivering someone to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" mean?
A: When either a Christian or non-Christian knows what is right and refuses to follow, this prayer is a "last result" that God would hand that person over to physical afflictions by Satan for the purpose of discipline.
One might note that despite Satan’s open rebellion against God, God still chooses to use Satan as an instrument of His discipline and punishment. As one Christian put it, Satan is the unwilling servant of the most High God. See Hard Sayings of the Bible p.581-584 and 1001 Bible Questions Answered p.60-61 for more info.

Q: In 1 Cor 5:5 (NIV) does someone delivered to Satan no longer have a "sinful nature"?
A: No. The NIV usually translates the Greek word for flesh, sarx, as sinful nature, but the context here is the physical affliction, as The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.514 says.

here is a respons for hebrews ch.6

Q: What does Heb 6:4-12 teach about salvation?
A: There are two distinct issues in Hebrews 6.
1) How can a living person reach a state where repentance and salvation are no longer possible for them?
2) Can a genuine Christian lose their salvation?
1) Losing Further Opportunities:
Yes, a person can get to a point beyond which further repentance is not possible for that person. What makes Hebrews 6:6 especially scary is that it says people who fall away in the manner the writer talks about can never be brought back. Some interpreters claim this is a hypothetical situation that would never occur. However, I see no indication that we can ignore this warning in the Bible and not the other warnings in the Bible. Rather, Hebrews 6:6 and Matthew 12:31-32 (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) are both permanent. In Matthew 12:31-32 the Jews, who were never Christians, saw enough and heard enough to know it was true. But not only did they decide not to accept Jesus' words on that day, but they ascribed His actions to the devil.
Now Christians still sin (1 John 2:1). In fact if we think we are without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). So then what are the verses in the previous paragraph referring to?
The main two purposes of the Book of Hebrews are to show Jews how Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and to encourage Jewish background believers to not turn back to Judaism but continue in the faith. So these passages do NOT refer to someone who sins, but to someone who turns their back on Christianity and returns to their false hope, be it Judaism, or generalizing, some other religion. 1 John 2:18-19 says that even in those times there were people who "appeared" saved church-goers, but then they left, presumably permanently. John says that they went out because they never were a part of us. If someone walks an aisle, or says some words, but they do not persevere in their faith, and then later turns their back on Christianity, they does not mean they lost their salvation; if they never return that means they never were saved in the first place.
Here are three cases I know personally that I think it does NOT refer to.
1. One college Christian girl I knew, for a period of months told God she wanted nothing to do with him and asked the Holy Spirit to get out of her life. She still believed, intellectually, but she was willfully disobedient. Later she repented, and returned to the faith. She said that that Hebrews 6:6 was especially scary for her. However, she did repent though. Perhaps God graciously was convicting her by bringing to mind that verse, and almost asking "Is that your final answer". A person who has run afoul of Hebrews 6:6 will not ever repent, and will not want to ever repent.
2. There was a pastor of a small church I knew who said that he was a pastor seven years before he was truly saved. After he was saved, he continued on being a pastor. This is not a case of falling away, but of someone who was never saved in the first place.
3. When I was a [Christian] teenager mowing a lawn, this Christian lady came out and we started talking. She said that her son had moved away to California to be with his live-in girlfriend. But she was sure that he was still saved though, because he had made a confession of faith in the church. I do not think she had any basis at all for her confidence. Paul the apostle tells us to examine ourselves and see if we are really in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5-6. Maybe he was never saved, but could be saved in the future. Maybe he knew so much about salvation and turned his back on it, and Hebrews 6:6 applies to him. Maybe he was genuinely saved before, he fell away into sin, but since he is genuinely saved he will return. We cannot say. Paul commanded the Corinthians to excommunicate an immoral brother in the church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. However, 2 Cor 5:5 shows that Paul still had hope that after this discipline, the brother might be saved. We think that 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 refers to the same brother, and that he did return.
Conclusion on this: We have to make a distinction between a believer who has drifted away into gross sin, and someone who has denied the faith and turned to something else. But whether their denying the faith is permanent, they might get saved in the future, or they are a saved person who is fallen and will return, we have to leave in God's hands to judge.
What should be our attitude towards someone else who has drifted away? It should NOT be complacency saying "don't worry, they are saved anyway." It also should not be writing them off, as they will never come back. Jude 23 says, "save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh." (uNASB). Now the end of Jude 23 implies these people were doing some pretty gross things, but they could still be saved.
James 5:19-20 says, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (uNASB)
2) Can a genuine Christian lose their salvation
This can be thought of as three sub-issues:
a) Can someone whom God knows [with certainty] is one of the elect going to heaven, catch by surprise the all-knowing God and not go to heaven?
b) Can a person have confidence that they are saved, and be sadly, and permanently wrong?
c) Can a person have a valid confidence that they are going to Heaven, and yet change and not make it?
The answer to the first question, when it is phrased that way, is obvious: no.
The answer to the second question is yes, because Matthew 7:21-23 shows us
The answer to the third question is no, but it is not because they have the strength to keep in the faith, but because God has the strength to seal and preserve us in the faith, as Ephesians 1:13-14 shows. However, we must balance the doctrine of once-saved-always-saved with the doctrine that true saints will persevere in the faith. We DO have the responsibility to examine yourselves, as well as our leaders, and see that we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5-7).
By the way, a written debate on person on once-saved-always-saved vs. a person can lose their salvation every time they sin is at http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/LoseSalvationOrNot/LoseSalvationOrNot.htm.

Q: In Heb 6:4-12, can people can lose their salvation?
A: Genuine Christians disagree on this issue, but all should be able to agree on the following points.
1. God is never surprised. Before anyone was born, God knew for certain all who would go to Heaven. (Revelation 20:12,15; 17:8; Psalm 139:16)
2. Some people will be surprised at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)
3. We can have confidence in our salvation. (1 John 5:13; Hebrews 4:16; 10:35; Acts 8:13,20-23)
4. Our rightful confidence should not turn into complacency. Christians can lose rewards in Heaven, and Philippians 2:12-13 shows that (after being saved) the outworking of our salvation should be with fear and trembling. Praise God that it is He that is working in us.
5. There is such as thing a counterfeit conversion. (1 John 2:19; Jeremiah 17:10; James 2:19; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10; 2 Peter 2:17-22)
6. We can know if our salvation is genuine by testing ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5-6), in other words, by comparing our doctrine and life with scripture.
7. We are given the responsibility to persevere. (Hebrews 6:11; 10:36; James 1:3-4; 2 Timothy 2:3; 4:5)
8. The Holy Spirit has sealed genuine believers until the Day of Judgment. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Jude 24; 1 Timothy 1:14). The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come (2 Corinthians 5:5). See The Complete Book of Bible Answers p.191-193, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.419-421, and Now That’s a Good Question p.115-117 for complementary answers. See also the discussion on Ephesians 1:14 for more info.

Q: What does Heb 6:4-12 mean about not being able to repent to salvation anymore?
A: There are at least six views.
1. Believer’s loss of salvation: Christians who teach that believers can lose their salvation would interpret this passage to mean that once salvation is lost, it can never be regained. While I have heard someone teach this means it is difficult to regain salvation, that is not what the word "impossible" means. See Hard Sayings of the Bible p.681-683 for more on this view.
2. A believer giving salvation back: David O’Brien in Today’s Handbook for Solving Bible Difficulties p.307-310 says that a believer can never "misplace" their salvation, meaning no believer can sin so bad that that, unknown to them, their salvation is lost. Our staying saved is not maintained by works, just as our getting saved is not by works. However, a genuine believer could consciously choose to "give back" their salvation to God. Then, they would be like those who knew the truth, and crucified Jesus. They will be going to Hell. O’Brien interprets "impossible" to mean impossible for the person, but not impossible for God.
3. The unpardonable sin. Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin in Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-30, and Luke 12:10-11. One writer of the New Geneva Study Bible p.1567 (The Unpardonable Sin article) believe that Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-29, and 1 John 5:16-17 also refer to the unpardonable sin.
4. Nonbeliever’s loss of opportunity for salvation: There is no way to be saved apart from Jesus’ death and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If a person rejects (without repentance) coming to God through Jesus (John 8:24) or blasphemes the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29), they will never go to Heaven. People can see and taste, but not swallow.
5. Hypothetical ad hominem: If salvation could be lost, then it could never be regained. But since salvation cannot be lost, these severe words are just an explanation, not a warning. R.C. Sproul in Now That’s a Good Question p.592-594 takes this view, though he is not dogmatic about this. Curiously, the New Geneva Study Bible p.1941 mentions various views but not this one.
6. Christian’s being disqualified for further service: A fallen-away Christian would not have the good witness to be of further service in this life, and of losing their glory in the millennium. The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.794 takes this view.
See When Critics Ask p.514-515 for more info on the different views

But i would also like to point to all to look at verse 9 in chapter 6 and read it closely.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Can Salvation Be Lost?

I received the following question from one of my web visitors in July of 2007...

If one cannot loose their salvation, why is the New Testament so full of warnings about being deceived and missing the mark?

Joe

MY RESPONSE:

Hi Joe,

Good question. Although certain Scripture passages do "seem" to imply that salvation can be lost, it is critically important that we shed the Light of the entire Bible on any particular verse in question, or doctrine. I think 1st Corinthians 5:5 clearly shows that salvation cannot be lost...

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

This believer was so sinful, that the Apostle Paul said to give him over unto Satan; YET, we see that his spirit will be saved in the Day of Jesus Christ (i.e., the Rapture). If salvation could be lost, then this man should have definitely lost it. How could one be delivered unto Satan because of his wickedness, and still be saved if salvation could be lost? Clearly, salvation cannot be lost.

Also, we read in 1st Corinthians 3:15...

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Again, this man work will all be burned, and he won't have any rewards in Heaven because of his sinful life; but, he himself will be saved, so as by fire (i.e., he barely escaped going to Hell).

Hope that helps,

Kindest regards,

David J. Stewart

Once Saved Always Saved

By Dr. Max D. Younce
0114

Question

I am a student at (certain college). My question is concerning "once saved always saved". My friend doesn't believe in eternal salvation. Her reason for not believing is II Peter 2:21. Can you please tell me what this verse is really saying?

Answer

II Peter 2:21 says, “For it had been better for them not to have known (Greek "epiginosko" and means "to have a knowledge of, but not to partake in.") the way of righteousness, than, after they have known (epiginosko) it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

II Peter 2 deals with false teachers, beginning in Verse 1 “...there were false prophets among the people...there shall be false teachers among you...”...They shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them. Verse 2 says “many shall follow their pernicious ways by reason of whom the WAY OF TRUTH shall be evil spoken of.” These false teachers are deniers of the truth. They know (epiginosko) the truth, as II Peter 2:21 says; but, they do not BELIEVE the truth. They “turn from” the truth and preach a perverted, or accursed, message of reformation or good works for salvation (Galatians 1:6-9). They have not lost their salvation. They never possessed it, because they never accepted Christ!

In Verse 3, Peter warns that these false teachers ...with feigned words will make a merchandise of you...” The example of Balaam, who preached for gain, is given in Verse 15. They lead others astray with their false message. The blood of those that go into a Christless eternity will be on the hands of the false teachers and God will judge them for it (Ezekiel 33:8). That is why II Peter 2:21 says “...it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness...” There are degrees of punishment in Hell (Revelation 20:13).

Peter warns the followers of these false teachers with examples of the judgment that falls on those who do not accept God’s truth. In Verse 4, everlasting fire for the angels that sinned (Matthew 25:41). In Verse 5, the “old world” perished in the flood because they did not believe the preaching of Noah. We see the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha in Verses 6-8. If we die without accepting Christ’s payment on the cross for our sin, we will spend eternity in Hell (John 3:36).

Verses 10 through 20 describe the false teachers: “Presumptuous...selfwilled (10). “...speak evil of the things they understand not...(the Gospel)(12)” “...sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you....(13)” “Wells without water...(17)” or a message containing no truth about salvation by belief in Jesus Christ (John 4:14). They are like those in Matthew 7:22-23. “...Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

“...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...” (Acts 16:31).

Can a Saved Person Ever Be Lost?

By: Dr. Max D. Younce

0087

Question

Could you give me the Scripture I need to show someone that we are once saved, always saved?

Answer

Christ tells us in John 6:37 there is no way God is going to take away our eternal life. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".

Some will say, "All right. God won't cast me out, but I could get out of my own will and choice!" Go to John 6:39, "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." This verse tells us it is God's will that NO saved person would ever become lost. He says He will "lose nothing", and you are at least something! Actually, we are so important to God that He sent His only Son from Heaven to earth to die in payment for our sin!

I Peter 1:4,5 lets us know that it is God who keeps us. God, himself, by His mighty power, is reserving a place in Heaven for us. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively (living) hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead". "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not way, RESERVED in heaven for you".

If a saved person could go to Hell, the Holy Spirit would have to go to Hell, too. He indwells every believer from the moment he trusts Christ forevermore. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy spirit of promise." "Which is the EARNEST (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the PURCHASED possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13,14). (Also see I Corinthians 6:19; and John 14:16,17).

John 10:28 "nails it down"! Christ gives eternal life, and they who receive this eternal life "shall never perish". "Never" in the original Greek is a double negative, meaning, "not at all, by no means, in no case, NEVER"! "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall ANY MAN (not even yourself) pluck them out of my hand."

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Bible Questions & Answers Archive

Fallen From Grace

By: Dr. Max D. Younce

0056

Question

I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior a number of years ago and I know I have eternal life. My friend, who says he is a Christian, insists that a Christian can fall from grace and lose his salvation. What does the Bible say about this?

Answer

Your friend may be referring to Galatians 5:4 which states, in part, that "ye are fallen from grace". Since you didn’t cite a particular Scripture, I can only assume this may be the one he is referring to. The errors of false teaching are almost always predicated upon two things: First, taking parts of Scripture and using them out of context and, Second, not comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Here is the entire verse as given in Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace". The verse is self-explanatory. If a person is trying to justify themselves by keeping the law, then they have turned away from being saved through God’s grace, through faith in Christ alone. God brought salvation to mankind by His grace in sending Jesus Christ to pay for our sins. (Titus 1:11).

Salvation is offered as a free gift to anyone who will receive it by faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died and rose again in payment for their sin. Ephesians 2:8,9 states very plainly, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Galatians 5:4 does not teach that you lose your salvation; but, rather, that you do not have salvation when you turn, or "fall away", from God’s offer of grace and try to justify yourself by good works.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36).

bible1985 wrote:
If a saved person could go to Hell, the Holy Spirit would have to go to Hell, too. He indwells every believer from the moment he trusts Christ forevermore.

Don't believe this sentence is correct. The Holy Spirit will leave the 'believer' instead of the Holy Spirit going to hell. Saul had the Holy Spirit leave him. King David pleaded with God not to take the Holy Spirit from him in Psalm.

bible1985 wrote:
That christian couple in acts who lied to the holy spirit after being saved, were dropped dead, did they lose their salvation, no. BUt they did the sin unto death, physical death.

The bible doesn't say whether they were saved or not for this couple. You are basing on your view that salvation cannot be lost (which may be right or wrong) to say that the couple was saved. Now don't get me wrong, I would love that this couple is saved, but I'm not going to say that they were saved based on 'what I may/may not believe'

In Hebrews 10:28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.

If we were to compare Hebrews 10:28 with the Christian couple who died when they lie, it would seem more likely that the Christian couple was not saved. (Yes, it's not exactly comparing apples with apples as one was under the Old Testament and one is the New Testament). Just wanted to emphasise the point that we should not say something which the bible did not say (ie that the couple was saved) just because we have a particular viewpoint.

PS: I'm not against/for once saved always/kept saved. Just haven't fully made up my mind yet

Brothers and sisters if you do believe in losing your salvation by sins you have committed after your saved or that depends on you perservering to the end and you deciding to just leave, you our teaching a works salvation.
John ch. 6
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John ch. 14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John ch. 15
6Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

This is very important chapter 10 of the gospel of John

3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

book of ephesians ch. 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
ephesians ch. 2
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Growth--Laying the Foundation\t\t
Assurance of Eternal Security

By: J. Hampton Keathley, III , Th.M. (Bio)

Also available in: Chinese Rwandan
Introduction

While the believer may gain assurance of his salvation and know that he has been saved, the question may arise concerning the permanence of his salvation. Once genuinely saved by trusting in the merit of Christ’s death on the cross for sin, can the believer lose his salvation? Is there anything we can do to lose our salvation? The answer is NO! Why? Because Scripture clearly affirms the fact we are protected by the power of God through faith. Faith brings us into a grace relationship with God as a gift of God through the merit of His beloved Son. We are saved by His record, not ours.

1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

The following seven approaches set forth the case for the believer’s eternal security, “buckled up for safety” because of the power of God and the overwhelming sufficiency of the person and work of Christ.
The Trinity Approach

The first argument for the eternal security of the believer stems from seeing how all three persons of the trinity work in concert to make and keep us secure in Christ.
From the Standpoint of the Son

Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “ For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The declaration in Romans 8:34, “Christ is the one who died,” is given in answer to the questions of verses 31-33, and in anticipation to the questions and declarations of verses 35-39. The goal of verse 34, however, is to show the absolute security of the believer. Two reasons are stated in relation to God the Son:

(1) Christ Died as Our Redeemer and Substitute: By His death Christ removed the barrier that separates mankind from God. Man’s sin and God’s holiness, which form a barrier between the sinner and God, were dealt with at the cross so God is free to justify us, declare us righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. The same truth is declared in the following verses.

Romans 3:23-28 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. 36 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith! 28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 5:1,8 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, … 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The book of Hebrews states Christ’s death is the only sacrifice which counts and is once and for all time.

Hebrews 9:11-14 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

Hebrews 9:26-28 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

Hebrews 10:12-14 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.

(2) Christ Is Risen and Sits at God’s Right Hand. The second argument of Romans 8:34 concerns the resurrection and session of the Savior at God’s right hand. He sits at God’s right hand as our powerful advocate and intercessor to plead our case when we sin or when accused of sin, and to intercede on our behalf by virtue of His finished work on the cross which reconciles us to God.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down.”

Romans 5:10-11 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? 11 Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.

Hebrews 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

John 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
From the Standpoint of the Father

Through the protection of our heavenly Father, whose holiness has been perfectly satisfied by the death of His Son, we are kept by:
His Sovereign Purpose

Salvation depends upon God to bring it to pass, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. 5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.
His Love for the Son

We are kept for the sake of the Son and His perfect work for our sin. Believers are “in his dearly loved Son,” the place where God’s love abides, and nothing whatsoever can separate us from the love of God (cf. Eph 1:3-6 above).

Romans 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
His Work of Discipline

The Father’s work of discipline proves we are still sons even when we sin. He does not disown us; He disciplines us.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons? “My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline or give up when he corrects you. “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” 7 Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. 11 Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful. But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness for those trained by it.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you? 3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:30-32 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Sin does not change our relationship to God as His children though it does affect our fellowship, the intimacy of our walk with God, our ability to serve Him, and the rewards we will receive in the future kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
His Sovereign Power

Nothing or no one is greater than the Father which means nothing or no one can defeat God’s purpose to save us or remove us from His love and care (cf. Rom. 8:31-39).

1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 24 Now to the one who is able to keep you from falling, and to cause you to stand, rejoicing, without blemish before his glorious presence,

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come! 18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
From the Standpoint of the Holy Spirit
His Work of Spirit Baptism

Spirit baptism refers to the work of the Holy Spirit whereby He places believers into union with the body of Christ and identifies them with Christ’s person and work. If believers could lose their salvation, it would mean the body of Christ could and would be maimed. This is foreign to Scripture. To the carnal church in Corinth, which was full of strife, envy, fornication, and drunkenness, Paul declared, “are you not walking like mere men?” (1 Cor. 3:3). Yet, he affirmed the fact of their salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1 So, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but instead as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
His Work in Regeneration

Regeneration refers to the impartation of spiritual and eternal life which makes us new creatures in Christ. This can never change. First, it is based on the work of the Son, not our works. And second, as physical birth makes one a child of his parents forever, so spiritual birth does the same.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!

Titus 3:5-7 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

John 3:3-8 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:16-18 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

As mentioned previously, rather than disown a disobedient child, God disciplines his children. At times it may even be to the point of physical death, but believers still remain His children (cf. above Heb. 12:5-12).
His Work of Indwelling

This refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer which was promised by our Lord as a permanent indwelling. The Spirit is given forever and given without conditions other than faith in Christ.

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘ From within him will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

James 4:5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, “The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning”?
The Holy Spirit as a Seal

This is a description of the Holy Spirit from the standpoint of what He is to the believer through His indwelling. A seal in ancient times was a sign and proof of: (a) a completed transaction, i.e., our salvation, (b) of ownership, we belong to God, and (c) of security since only an authorized person could break the seal. In this case it is God and He has promised not to do so.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

As a result, Paul declares that even the carnal Christians at Corinth belonged to God as a result of this finished transaction of their salvation in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
The Holy Spirit as an Earnest

This forms another picture of what the Holy Spirit is to believers in Christ. As an earnest agreement on a house is a buyer’s pledge to purchase and pay the full price for the house, so the Holy Spirit is God’s personal pledge and guarantee of our security promising us there is more to come: we will receive the ultimate or eternal blessings of our salvation. The term “down payment” in the following verses refer to an earnest agreement-like pledge.

Ephesians 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.
The Positional Approach

Spirit baptism joins the believer into union with Christ. This becomes the new spiritual position of the believer. Phrases such as “in Christ,” “in the beloved,” and “with Christ,” used over and over again in Paul’s epistles, refer to this concept. This calls attention to the fact the Bible emphasizes we are saved and accepted through our position in or union with Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ.

Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 This saying is trustworthy: If we died with him, we will also live with him. 12 If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. 13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, since he cannot deny himself.

This is a place not only of security, but of double security! Our union with Christ is a guarantee of glory.

Colossians 3:3-4 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him.
The Logical Approach

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ?

Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?

Romans 8:32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things?
God’s Hand Approach

A specific and wonderful promise from the Lord is that no one (and this must include Satan or ourselves) can remove us from either the hand of the Son or the Father. Scripture tells us we are in God’s hand, which is a place of perfect security because He is greater than all.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
The Tense Approach

The use of the perfect tense in a number of New Testament passages would further point to the believer’s security. The meaning of the perfect tense in Greek combined with the context and the analogy of Scripture forms another argument for the security of the believer. The perfect tense refers to action or an event which, completed in the past, has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker). It looks at the present state of affairs. The following passages that use the perfect tense stress the saved state of the believer who has trusted in the Savior.

John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are savedthrough faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The Grace Approach

This argument is simply this. The New Testament plainly states we are saved by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ, and that salvation is not of human works or works of righteousness which we have done. If, however, having put our trust in the person and work of Christ, we can lose our salvation by what we do or do not do, then in the final analysis, we are saved by works. This is contrary to the theology of the New Testament (cf. also Rom. 4:1-5; 11:6; Rev. 21:6; 21:17).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
What Sin Approach

This approach asks the question, “ What sin causes a person to lose his salvation?” Sin, any sin falls short of the perfect holiness of God. Every person, regardless of his maturity or relationship with the Lord, is far from perfect by God’s standard. We all have something in our lives which falls short of God’s glory, i.e., some sin though it may be unknown.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Where, then, do we draw the line? Those who believe we can lose our salvation categorize sin as though God overlooks some sins while He judges others. It becomes a matter of degrees and the question arises, how bad must we become before we lose our salvation? Which sin does us in? People often categorize sin into various levels, but their categories are usually out of touch with God’s perspective.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked plans,feet that are swift to run to evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies,and a person who spreads discord among family members.
Problem Passages

What about those passages that are often taken to mean the believer can lose his salvation? For this study, we cannot deal with all these passages. Generally, however, we can show that none of these passages teach we can lose our salvation if the immediate context and the context of the entire New Testament is considered, or if the principle of the analogy of the faith is considered.
The Analogy of the Faith

The analogy of the faith is a hermeneutical principle which says unclear passages should be understood in the light of clear ones, not vice versa. It is my conviction that those who believe we can lose our salvation, or who teach Lordship salvation, violate this principle.

They violate this principle in two ways:

(1) They base their understanding of the Gospel on a few difficult or unclear passages rather than the many very clear ones.

(2) They overthrow the correct interpretation of clear passages by understanding them in the light of their faulty views of the unclear or more difficult passages of Scripture.
Categories of Difficult Passages

The problem passages (those used to teach believers can lose their salvation, or used to teach that they were never really saved or they would never do such and such) in reality fall into one or more of the following categories and do not deal with the issue of eternal salvation:

(1) Passages that deal with the Bema (the Judgment Seat of Christ) and are thus warning believers against the potential loss of rewards—rather than the loss or lack of salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 9:25-27 Each competitor must exercise self-control in everything. They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run uncertainly or box like one who hits only air. 27 Instead I subdue my body and make it my slave, so that after preaching to others I myself will not be disqualified.

(2) Passages that warn against the severity of God’s discipline in this life when believers refuse to respond to His grace.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If someone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, which is what you are.

Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this is what we intend to do, if God permits. 4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:23-31 And let us hold unwaveringly to the hope that we confess, for the one who made the promise is trustworthy. 24 And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works, 25 not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies. 28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who said, “ Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “ The Lord will judge his people.”

(3) Passages that portray the nature of who we are as God’s children, and that which must, therefore, characterize us as children of God. This includes passages that portray the nature and condition of unbelievers as a motivation to godly living or living like the people we have become positionally in Christ. These passages do not threaten us with the loss of salvation nor do they call us to question our salvation. They challenge us to live like the people we are in Christ. For instance, compare Ephesians 5:1-12.

1 Therefore, be imitators of God as dearly loved children 2 and live in love, just as Christ also loved us and gave himself for us, a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God. 3 But among you there must not be either sexual immorality, impurity of any kind, or greed, as these are not fitting for the saints. 4 Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting—all of which are out of character—but rather thanksgiving. 5 For you can be confident of this one thing: that no person who is immoral, impure, or greedy (such a person is an idolater) has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light— 9 for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth— 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For the things they do in secret are shameful even to mention
The Argument of 1 John 3:6f.

1 John 3:6-10 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness—the one who does not love his fellow Christian—is not of God.

First John 3:6 occurs in a section where John is giving reasons why believers should not sin. Here he gives one reason after another not to question our salvation but to motivate believers to walk in the light. Does 1 John 3:6b mean the abiding believer, the one who clings to Christ, actually never sins? Such an idea would contradict 1 John 1:8 and 10 and 5:16. Because of our weakness and lack of perfection in this life, even abiding believers sin. So what does John mean?

As an illustration, let’s say a young child steals a pack of gum at the supermarket. When the mother finds out, she says, “the members of this family do not steal. Do you understand that?” Does that make sense? One of them had just done that very thing. What was this mother saying? She was saying that stealing was against the moral standards of their family, and therefore, the little boy had to learn this lesson and refrain from ever doing it again. She wasn’t saying she had gone around and checked and found that none of the members of the family had ever stolen. She was pointing out the standards of their family as a motivation to her son.

John is simply telling us, this is the standard, that we do not sin, and we need to get with the plan. He is not denying that believers sin or that they can fall into the pattern of sinning. To drive this concept home even more, this verse is followed by more reasons and illustrations against sin in the lives of believers.

Another statement for motivation is in verse 9: “Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.” It is not saying believers are incapable of sinning. This would contradict the verses mentioned above.

Most take this verse to mean that John is saying Christians cannot sin or will not sin habitually. Is this what John is saying? No. I do not believe this is his point. “Practices” is a misleading translation. If that was John’s point, the Greek prasso, which John uses in the verses below, could have expressed that more clearly.

John 3:20 For everyone who does ( prasso) evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed.

John 5:29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done ( prasso) what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.

So, what is John saying? The word “cannot” does not always mean incapable. It can also mean unwilling. The following New Testament passages illustrates this:

Luke 11:5-7 Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6 because a friend of mine has stopped here while on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.’ 7 Then he will reply from inside, ‘Do not bother me. The door is already shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything.’

Luke 14:20 Another said, ‘I just got married, and I cannot come.’

Mark 1:45 But as the man went out he began to announce it publicly and spread the story widely, so that Jesus was no longer able to enter any town openly but stayed outside in remote places. Still they kept coming to him from everywhere.

Mark 6:3-5 Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren’t his sisters here with us?” And so they took offense at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house.” 5 He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take part in the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

First John 3 is saying we must be unwilling to sin because we were born of God’s nature. This is much like Romans 6:1-10 which follows the declaration of 5:20-21.

Let’s say a doctor tells a smoker with throat problems, “You cannot smoke again.” This doesn’t mean the person is incapable of smoking but that he must not because of the physical consequences to his body.

It is clear from the life of King David, who is called a man after God’s own heart, that believers can and do fall into serious sin and for long periods of time. For believers in Christ (with all that they have in Christ) to live under sin’s reign like the unbelieving world is an illogical and contradictory position. It carries with it very serious consequences including the possibility of the sin unto death as God’s divine discipline to stop the pattern of sinning.

1 Corinthians 11:27-32 For this reason, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself first, and in this way let him eat the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without careful regard for the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin not resulting in death.
The Consequences of Carnality
(Living with Known Sin in the Life)

Key Passages:

Psalm 66:18 If I had harbored sin in my heart, the sovereign Master would not have listened.

Psalm 32:3-4 When I refused to confess my sin, my whole body wasted away, while I groaned in pain all day long. 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth.

(1) Loss of fellowship with the Lord plus loss of the control of the Holy Spirit and His fruit in the life (cf. 1 Jn. 1:5-7). Sin grieves and quenches the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). Sin affects our prayer life (Ps. 66:18), our witness (Acts 1:8), Bible study (1 Cor. 2:10-16; Eph. 3:16f), i.e., all the ministries of the Holy Spirit in believers’ lives. The Holy Spirit’s ministry is turned from enabling to convicting, etc.

1 John 1:5-7 Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not extinguish the Spirit.

Psalm 66:18 If I had harbored sin in my heart, the sovereign Master would not have listened.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts of the earth.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. 13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 3:16-19 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love, 18 you may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and thus to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

(2) Misery, loss of joy, because we are controlled by the sinful nature.

Psalm 32:3-4 When I refused to confess my sin, my whole body wasted away, while I groaned in pain all day long. 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

(3) Dissipation or wastefulness of our spiritual, mental, and physical resources.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit,

(4) Production of the works of the flesh with their awful consequences.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

Galatians 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, being jealous of one another.

(5) Divine discipline, the heavy hand of God on our lives to turn us around.

Hebrews 12:5-10 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons? “My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline or give up when he corrects you. 6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” 7 Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness.

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For the one who eats and drinks without careful regard for the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Psalm 32:4 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

(6) Broken relationships and pain to those around us, especially to our families.

Galatians 5:15 However, if you continually bite and devour one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God, that no one be like a bitter root springing up and causing trouble, and through him many become defiled.

(7) Loss of our testimony in the world and dishonor to the Lord.

1 Peter 2:12-15 and maintain good conduct among the non-Christians, so that though they now malign you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God when he appears. 13 Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether to a king as supreme 14 or to governors as those he commissions to punish wrongdoers and praise those who do good. 15 For God wants you to silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good.

1 Peter 3:15-17 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess. 16 Yet do it with courtesy and respect, keeping a good conscience, so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame when they accuse you. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it, than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:15-16 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. 16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name.

(8) Loss of rewards at the Bema seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.
Consequences of
Continued and Open Rebellion

In addition to the above the following apply:

(1) Increased discipline from the heavy hand of God.

Psalm 32:4 4 For day and night you tormented me;
you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

Hebrews 12:6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.”

(2) Continuation in sin may require the church to take action even to the point of excommunication (1 Cor. 5).

2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 6 But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life and not according to the tradition you received from us. 7 For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you, 8 and we did not eat anyone’s food without paying. Instead, in toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command: “If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat.” 11 For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work but meddling in the work of others. 12 Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat. 13 But you, brothers and sisters, do not grow weary in doing what is right. 14 But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not associate closely with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector.

(3) Divine discipline to the point of physical death.

1 Corinthians 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that.

Certainly, believers are secure in Christ and cannot lose their salvation, a salvation accomplished by the finished work of the Savior who sits victoriously at God’s right hand to plead our case. But reality, and Scripture shows us, unless believers abide in fellowship and deal in faith with the sin in their lives, they can fall into serious conditions of sin just like David. Such can happen because the person was never truly saved, but quite often the real cause is a failure to abide in the life and power of the Spirit of God.

It is our hope that this study on the eternal security of the believer has been a help. The goal of understanding our security is an assurance that motivates to godly living, never careless living or taking the Lord for granted. Remember, God is our heavenly Father who, in love will discipline His children to draw them back to himself.

The Apostle staked his faith on the trustworthiness of God’s grace. Though some understand this to refer to God’s deposit of gifts in Paul, I believe that which he had entrusted, literally, “the deposit,” was his personal faith in the finished work of Christ as the basis of his salvation. Paul was confident that this would be preserved until all the dangers and failures of life would be past with the coming of the Lord

Brothers and sisters if you do believe in losing your salvation by sins you have committed after your saved or that depends on you perservering to the end and you deciding to just leave, you our teaching a works salvation.

No, we're not! Just taking the Bible at face value. Nobody said that we keep our salvation by works.

John 3:16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

it is not believe once or once upon a time, it is beliveth and continue to do so. this word is "PRESENT PARTICIPLE"

And to my very limited knowledge, it is something that happens in time, and continues to do so.

some with deeper knowledge then me of language may be able to help out?

Hi bible1985...

Brothers and sisters if you do believe in losing your salvation by sins you have committed after your saved or that depends on you perservering to the end and you deciding to just leave, you our teaching a works salvation.

It has nothing to do with "works" in the sense that our own goodness or good deeds will get us into Heaven. However, it also ignores the idea that someone who came to Christ and slowly or quickly fell away to the point of living in sin is [i]eternally secure[/i].

Just trying to clarify.

When someone is truly born again, the holy spirit brings them out of this continued sin, its not a false convert who can't get out of their sin because they don't have the holy spirit. But the holy spirit wills for them to repent and perservere. Its not you who perserveres but the holy spirit in you. God will finish the good work he started in you. The question isn't if we let the holy spirit do it, but the holy spirit will do it. Watch ray comfort about true and false conversion. That is what the issue really is, our you saved or not, our you a professing christian but do not have the witness of the holy spirit within you.

I also recommend you all to listen to some of paris reidheads sermons. I have all of his sermons on cd. His ministry sent me all of his cds and a few books, and this man explains what being born again is better than most. But you must listen to him, don't ignore me on this, check out his teachings on so great a salvation, it is so good. Also listen to paul washer. These men our born of God truly and explain what being born of God truly is.

This is an interesting thread but the point is missed. It humanistic to be so enthralled with the question: "If I am saved can I sin and still go to heaven."

We know salvation to have three tenses

Past - Justification
Future - Glorification (heaven)
Present - Sanctification (increasing power over sin)

You can lose present tense salvation and backslide. If you have backslidden as a child of God your concern should not be heaven, or 'am I still saved', your primary concern should be repentance and restoration.

To often we debate this Once Saved Always Saved, and both sides miss the point.

great way to answer it

Hi bible1985...

So are you supposing that a true convert can never return to willful sin?

I have known quite a few individuals who seemed to have truly repented, truly known and truly fellowshipped with the Lord -- yet they eventually became entrapped in sin. This recently happened to my next-to-oldest sister. She used to plead with me in tears (when we were in high school) to come to Christ. She witnessed for me daily. I used to hear her crying out to God for me when I would quietly walk past her bedroom. She truly sought after the face of God, told others about Him, and did her utmost toavoid anything evil.

However, now she is living in sin. She got involved with another man, left her husband and is obtaining a divorce. She doesn't want to hear the truth. Every time I try to speak with her, she wants to change the subject. She watches terribly ungodly movies and is undergoing a horrendous transformation. I think that it is ridiculous to claim that she was a "false convert" -- because I know that she was truly converted. I am certainly praying that she will come back to Christ.

I have known of many believers -- including preachers -- who departed from the faith. In fact, the temptation to depart the faith is ever present! We are constantly waging war with our flesh over the vain pleasures of sin for a season. Yes, a true believer hates sin (and hates to sin). But what happens to a believer who slowly gives in to sin and then gives into fleshly urges of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life? What happens when a person who was a believer partakes in the pleasures of the flesh? If such a person departs the faith and does not return to the faith, what is the end of such a man or woman?

I think that it is a "stretch" to simply dismiss such individuals as "false converts." Jesus gave us the Parable of the Sower, in which some "believers" departed the faith due to different circumstances. Is our "salvation" an eternal condition, or the result of someone who is "faithful unto the end?"

The fact that we continue on is evidence that we our truly saved. So if your sister has left the faith even to you it looked like she was definitely saved, proves she wasn't. Do not disregard the work of the holy spirit after your saved or the work of Christ saving us. You all put it all on you, so our you saying that christ living in you is not stronger than you or satan. If your sister is jut living in sin and has not walked completely from the faith she could still be saved, but if she has denounced christ, then she never knew him truly.

bible1985,

I think part of the problem is that you don't understand our beliefs. You keep making statements like,

You all put it all on you, so our you saying that christ living in you is not stronger than you or satan.

Could you explain how the verses by hmmhmm and Chris gave at the beginning of this thread don't mean what they appear to, without post long articles explaining them away? If they don't mean what the appear to at face-value, then what was God trying to say?

Your doctrine could potentially lead to great problems. (For instance, saying that Chris' sister may still be a Christian even though she's in blatant rebellion against God).

another verse to consider, since it is Jesus Him self who says this, it is worthy to meditate on long and hard, what stands out to me is these words "in Me"

Joh 15:2 Every branch [b]in me[/b] that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

taketh away....

where? out of Christ?

are we still saved if we be removed out from Christ? it is obvious they where in Christ, He says they where. Is it possible to be in Christ and yet be unsaved? a false convert in Christ?

and in verse 6 we have this word [b]if[/b]...

to me it is clear, if means a choice, if means it is possible to be in or out.

fearful ? yes...

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

if we dont abide in Him, we will be in the fire.

And from have been in Christ in the earlier verse, to later be found in the fire.

isent it clear?

i to agree, God will finish what he started, but he never forces anyone, no one will be in heaven who dident wanna go there, and no one will be surprised that they are in heaven.

I am not saying or teaching salvation through works, but it is evident i think, in my own opinion. The Lord speaks very clear on this here.

what say ye?

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I would like to say their is nothing wrong with posting anything from someone who is well known in the issue or has a better understanding than me. I also have commented on the issue so i am bringing not just other peoples words but mine too.
Like i said i recommend some sermons from paris reidhead called overcoming the world and abiding in christ. This man explains it very well, it is your decision to see what he says, he uses the scriptures too so you can't say that the Bible has authority over men. He uses the Bible to prove what he is saying. I would like to also say that it would be great if we had the likes of Charles spurgeon, Andrew Murray, John wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Ray comfort, Paul Washer, JOhn Macarthur, Paris Reidhead, Leonard Ravenhill, and Jesus Christ to explain to you all how your all totally wrong on the issue. You guys would gain a lot of knowledge if you looked into these men and if you had the holy spirit to listen to him about the issue. Or did you lose your salvation today. You know what if you could lose your salvation, if you read the verses the way you guys want to, you could never get your salvation back and would be lost forever. I read hebrews ch. 6 totally different than people who think you can lose your salvation, but say you guys our right then their would be no possibility for you to come back.

Paris reidhead actually answers that verse that you bring up in abiding in christ, check it out. I don't want my unscholarly words to unconvince you guys.

bible1985 wrote:
Paris reidhead actually answers that verse that you bring up in abiding in christ, check it out. I don't want my unscholarly words to unconvince you guys.

I have heard it brother, its a good sermon. I dont see Paris emphasizes on the doctrine once saved always saved as much as you seem to do.

Also your list of preachers, are you saying they ALL hold this view? because they have some very different belifs theologically.... some even hold the very opposite view on some things. I meen Paul Washer and Ravenhill dont exactly preach the same doctrines, Edwards and Wesley dont either.

God cut of israel, his chosen people. They where grafted out, and Paul warns us.

and yes, some take it to the extreme, saved one day and next not ect.

I am not preaching that, but i see in scripture it is possible, take Solomon, Davids son, he built the temple, wrote four books of scripture, and are probably in Hell. Scripture never mentions he repented.

Can God keep us? yes and amen, he can, he can keep us from even falling. But we must live in repentance and an overcoming life. and trust Him and believe in Him. that He is our only hope.

those who overcome....

so the question still remains, is it possible to one day believe so, and the next dont?

I think yes, as we see in scripture it is possible.

But it is also possible to be saved to the uttermost.

so we need to consider all scripture

I would like to also say that it would be great if we had the likes of Charles spurgeon, Andrew Murray, John wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Ray comfort, Paul Washer, JOhn Macarthur, Paris Reidhead, Leonard Ravenhill, and Jesus Christ to explain to you all how your all totally wrong on the issue.

Bro(?),

Are you saying that John Wesley believed in eternal security? I'm fairly sure that Ray Comfort doesn't believe in it either, but I just asked on his School of Biblical Evangelism forum to be sure.

EDIT: I just found the answer to my own question. No, Ray Comfort doesn't believe in "Once Save, Always Saved".

hmmhmm wrote:
another verse to consider, since it is Jesus Him self who says this, it is worthy to meditate on long and hard, what stands out to me is these words "in Me"

Joh 15:2 Every branch [b]in me[/b] that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

taketh away....

where? out of Christ?

are we still saved if we be removed out from Christ? it is obvious they where in Christ, He says they where. Is it possible to be in Christ and yet be unsaved? a false convert in Christ?

and in verse 6 we have this word [b]if[/b]...

to me it is clear, if means a choice, if means it is possible to be in or out.

fearful ? yes...

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

if we dont abide in Him, we will be in the fire.

And from have been in Christ in the earlier verse, to later be found in the fire.

isent it clear?

i to agree, God will finish what he started, but he never forces anyone, no one will be in heaven who dident wanna go there, and no one will be surprised that they are in heaven.

I am not saying or teaching salvation through works, but it is evident i think, in my own opinion. The Lord speaks very clear on this here.

what say ye?

Good post! Would you call someone a branch that wasn't a Christian? And why would you be taken away when you were never part of the vine?

No ray comfort does believe once saved always saved. I have 8 of his cds and i have his movie hells best kept secret and have read his book way of the master. His main teaching is that their is a true convert that continues to perservere to the end and their is a false convert that falls away after professing for some time. That is the biggest lie i have ever heard, his whole teaching is based on true conversion. You guys need to find out the truth about stuff like that, email his website living waters.
Better yet watch the video on true and false conversion by way of the master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncnhmzfpwo part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z24R_YYP6z8 part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCxwnldGZPA part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlNxYX8pSbc part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOptjcInfTY part 5

You need to tell that man or woman to get their facts right.

I had my pastor Mark reply to this and this is what he said:

Jesus said he is the vine and you are a branch. When you are grafted in, which means when the seed (JESUS CHRIST) comes into a truly cultivated heart, (the parable of the seed sower) It bears fruit and it never looses the seed. The other three seeds are never there for full time and full term because most so called christians are never truly saved because the will not surrender to God's will and his word. They become religious and then fall into all them scriptures you are discussing. God's word says he will not be mocked and you will never be put to shame. He will not let someone that is truly saved ever fall into sin and stay there and then cut them off.

ASK THEM THIS, IF YOU TRULY HAVE AN EARTHLY FATHER AND DOES IT EVER COME A TIME EVEN IF THE FATHER DIES, OR HE MOVES TO AFRICA AND YOU NEVER SEE HIM, DOES THAT MEAN HE IS NOT YOUR FATHER NO MORE? iT AGAIN ALL GOES TO THE PARABLE OF THE SEED SOWER. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE REPENTANT HEART?

I never have the discussion when any one ever tries to say that because it shows me thew have not sought out the bible and and the Holy Spirit has never given them the true revelation. There is another scripture that no man can pluck you out of his hand.

Listen, ask them this one question. When you truly with a repentant heart accept Jesus as your Saviour, you don't desire to turn back and go and sin again because when you truly taste the goodness and the gifts of God, there is never a desire to go back. Tell them to read the parable of the seed sower and Jesus told his disciples when you understand this one you will understand them all.

All the scriptures you are saying if they will read and seek the understanding is all falling under the parable of the seed sower.

this is on ray comforts website

"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!"

When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). Ask him, "Did you know the Lord?" He will then be forced to say, "I thought I did!" This gives you license to gently say, "If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If he didn’t know the Lord, he was therefore never a Christian (1 John 5:11–13,20).

Explain to him that the Bible speaks of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and persecution, falls away. If he is open to reason, take him through the Ten Commandments, into the message of the cross, and the necessity of repentance and faith in the Savior.

Paris reidhead made a good point in his book the reality of God. He said that those who our born of God when they have sinned our chastened by god. When you our a false convert or the child of the devil, their is no chastening. So if any of you our living in continued sin and not repenting or being chastened by the Lord , i would worry.

bible1985,

You didn't answer my other question, what about John Wesley? He was Arminian...

bible1985 wrote:
No ray comfort does believe once saved always saved. I have 8 of his cds and i have his movie hells best kept secret and have read his book way of the master. His main teaching is that their is a true convert that continues to perservere to the end and their is a false convert that falls away after professing for some time. That is the biggest lie i have ever heard, his whole teaching is based on true conversion. You guys need to find out the truth about stuff like that, email his website living waters.
Better yet watch the video on true and false conversion by way of the master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncnhmzfpwo part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z24R_YYP6z8 part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCxwnldGZPA part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlNxYX8pSbc part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOptjcInfTY part 5

You need to tell that man or woman to get their facts right.

I think you're confusing OSAS with "the Perseverance of the Saints". I believe Ray leans toward POS, but not OSAS as you teach it. At least that's what I've seen on his School of Biblical Evagilism forum.

BTW, I've also read his books, listened to his teaching, watched the videos, etc. but I didn't come away thinking, "Man, he teaches OSAS."

Hi bible1985...

Do you believe that a person who truly converts to Christ can never be in danger to fall away?

Do you think that we are no longer "tempted" to turn away from Christ and follow the ways of the flesh?

There just seems to be so many verses that indicate otherwise.

Bible1985,

I really enjoy your participation here and hope that you will not be scare away by so many of us asking questions or disagreeing with you.

Those preachers that you quote to try to emphasise your view, some like Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley etc don't believe in the OSAS. Leonard Ravenhill has mentioned before of 1 person that really fell away into terrible sins (left wife, adultery etc) for years and later returned back to the Lord. He was saying that this person had a 2nd chance while he doesn't believe he (Leonard Ravenhill) would have a 2nd chance. Neither did Judas Iscariot either.

Paul Washer does believe in OSAS (or as some people would prefer to put it as 'Once saved kept saved' and not 'Once saved always saved'). But he did mention that the falling away will not take a long time before the true believer is turned back to God, certainly not 10 years (that's what Paul Washer said).

But from what I've read on people who have fallen away, come back etc, it can be a long time and not a short time (as many of those that believed OSAS think it should be. The OSAS people will say that they are saved much later on and not the 1st time. But according to some of those that fell back and came back, they disagree and said it was the 1st time they were saved).

There are also those that really seem to know God but has fallen away for years and have not returned to Him. I know that you are trying to say that they never really know God (for example you quote Ray Comfort in saying that 'they think they know God but really maybe they didn't) to try to justify the OSAS doctrine. But for me this is trying to justify something and the justification/reasoning may/maynot be true. Not proof that they were never saved or knew God in the 1st place.

bible1985 wrote:
..., but if she has denounced christ, then she never knew him truly.

The thing is I believe there are similar cases out there but they have come back to Christ and its not necessarily that they never knew him in the first place. Maybe you've never encountered or truly known of these type of people before, so its easier for you to say that they never knew Christ. But what about those that have truly known these people. Its not that easy for them to accept this especially with the seemingly conflicting verses in the bible.

jmiklovic wrote:
This is an interesting thread but the point is missed. It humanistic to be so enthralled with the question: "If I am saved can I sin and still go to heaven."

We know salvation to have three tenses

Past - Justification
Future - Glorification (heaven)
Present - Sanctification (increasing power over sin)

You can lose present tense salvation and backslide. If you have backslidden as a child of God your concern should not be heaven, or 'am I still saved', your primary concern should be repentance and restoration.

To often we debate this Once Saved Always Saved, and both sides miss the point.

There is no doubt that if we have backslidden, then we should repent first and foremost. But don't forget, OSAS came about partly I believe is to give assurance to people and because its normal that all will ask that question on whether they can lose/reject their salvation. So its this assurance and answering of their question that 'Christians' are seeking. With this assurance (if its true), then people can become more 'powerful' in their walk with God(which is a very good thing) as they know no matter what they do, God will never leave them or God will prevent them from doing certain wrongful things. As with most things, it can also be abused by people to think that they can be lax in their walk with God

One cannot stop that question on 'whether one can lose their salvation' from occuring. Its natural to ask that question even for the most pious person, I do believe.

bible1985 wrote:
I had my pastor Mark reply to this and this is what he said:

Jesus said he is the vine and you are a branch. When you are grafted in, which means when the seed (JESUS CHRIST) comes into a truly cultivated heart, (the parable of the seed sower) It bears fruit and it never looses the seed. The other three seeds are never there for full time and full term because most so called christians are never truly saved because the will not surrender to God's will and his word.

When people first accept Jesus and Jesus come into their lives, they are repentant. Are all of them in full repentance and will fully accept (whether they really believe it or not) Jesus's will at the point of asking Jesus to come into their lives--NO. Many do not even know how much they need to repent and that they will not accept God's will on many things (although they may think they have fully repented and will do so to a large degree in following God's will at that point in life when Jesus come into their lives). Also, there are those that repent in the sense that they know they cannot save their lives and only Jesus can save their lives. Now, many will say that last (ie previous) sentence will mean that they are not born again. But the thing is even with that 'little bit of 'repentance' Jesus can still come into their lives and there are people out there as proof. Even the bible has passages where people just believed and they are saved (with no talk of repentance).Even Paul Washer said that it may be just as little as asking Jesus to save you for one to be born again. This is not a suggestion for people to just pray 'an easy prayer without repentance'.

What I'm trying to get across is that if one were truly and fully repentant and will follow God's will at the point of asking Jesus to come into their lives, there will be hardly anyone that will be saved. Jesus in his grace, comes into our lives (even if our repentance is so little) for certain people and this is something that I'm so thankful for. It is then the holy spirit working in us to help us in our obedience and walk with God.

The thing is I'm actually closer to 'not being able to lose our salvation' then being able to lose one's salvation. However, I see holes here and there in the discussion which some including myself have chosen to highlight a few of them. These holes and the seemingly contradictory verses in the bible does make some have doubts as to the OSAS doctrine.

First off repentance is a must because if their is no repentance then their will be no turning away from your sin. The whole Bible is about repentance because of our sins. ONe thing you need to think about when those people who just believed were forgiven, their is something called inward repentance. Jesus saw that inward repentance of the heart. That theif on the cross saw that he was a criminal and that he deserved what was happening to him. He was repentant in his heart and Jesus saw that and he forgave him, the man believed on Jesus too. But repentance is a must.

I was saying that if she has now denounced Christ then she wasn't really saved. Do you see any christians denouncing Christ in the long run besides Judas , who wasn't really saved in the first place.If someone who is saved falls away into witchcraft,satan worship, denounces christ and say then comes back years later. No, they were unconverted the whole time. This is what wrong with the united states, this is why the church has not progressed out here is because nobody knows what means to be saved. They think because you make some profession or some prayer you read that your saved or because you go to church, no the ones that our truly born of God do not fall away, they our children of the living God, if they our not born of God then they can fall away. But God will not allow satan or ourselves to pluck out of his hands ever, you all do not know the power of god. You do not forget the lord for years or even months and then come back and say you were saved the whole time. If the Lord lives inside of you how could you say that. Do you think this all about us living when God is in us, no you couldn't even come to God on your own, none of you. If it wasn't for God you would all still be continuuing on in the world and would die in your sins. You would all still be children of the devil forever. But you know what God drew you to him and he convicted you and you wanted nothing more than to believe after you came in contact with the Living God. Now if you do not have the holy spirit, sure you could resist God and sure you could fall away after years of being a professing christian. But when you have the holy spirit you our sealed unto the day of redemption, and it doesn't matter what anyones says or what you do, the lord will be with you and nobody can stand under the convicting and chastening of the Lord.

Perserverance of the saints, what do you think that is? Perserverane of the saints isn't if we continue on. It is that if we our God's elect that we will perservere. No calvinists believe you can lose your salvation. Especially if you were God's true elect.

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ETERNAL SECURITY
(Once Saved, Always Saved)?
Introduction
What does the Bible Teach?
Should Christians Live in Fear?
Verses which Advocate "Eternal Security"
Supposed Scriptural Refutations of "Eternal Security"

Introduction
Salvation is by faith in Christ, but not just any faith can save. It must be of the right content and of the right quality to be acceptable to God for salvation.

* The content of faith that saves is to put one's faith in Christ as he is defined in the Bible.
* The quality of faith that saves is characterized as being confident, steadfast, submissive and application oriented. These are what separate a "conviction" from a mere "opinion".

Those who have decided to follow Christ are often deficient in one of these two areas and so go through a "nominal" stage" in which, although they may be called "Christians", they have yet to be born of God.

Unsaved
\t
Saved
Non-Christians
\t
Nominal Christians
\t
Christians Born of God
Non-Christians
\t
Christians

However, once a person has been born of God and thus saved, can he lose his salvation status and revert to a nominal or non-Christian status? There have been different points of view on this issue.

Once Saved, Always Saved
\t
You can lose your salvation
Free Grace
\t
Lordship Salvation
\t
Arminians

There is often confusion among Christians between the Calvinistic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the Free Grace doctrine of eternal security. Here is a general summary of both doctrines:

Free Grace Theology

This doctrine states believers can fall into sins for a prolonged period of time and that it is possible for true believers to fall away without losing salvation. This is predominantly a dispensationalist doctrine. Those who hold to this view state that salvation is always in the aorist tense, so that once a person is converted he/she cannot be unconverted regardless of the circumstances. I have heard that theologians who hold to this view are Charles Stanley, Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Erwin Lutzer, Robert Thieme, Michael Cocoris, John Hart, Chuck Swindoll, Earl Radmacher, and all free grace believers.

Calvinism (Perseverance of the Saints) or (Lordship Salvation)

This doctrine states that those who are elected unto salvation will persevere till the end. Holiness and faithfullness will be a general mark for the believer and that true believers will never backslide or fall away from the faith. Those who hold to this position acknowledge that temporary sins will come into a believer's life, but holiness and righteousness will be the consistent lifestyle for the believer. This view denies the view that Christians can lose their salvation. This view is predominant in many Covenant based denominations like presbyterian and reformed baptist. I have heard that this view is held by theologians like John MacArthur (baptist), R. C. Sproul (presbyterian), J. I. Packer (presbyterian), John Gerstner, J. M. Boice, Kenneth Gentry, and James Kennedy.

In his commentary on 1John 3:8-10 Calvin says,
"John (the apostle) denied that any one belongs to Christ except he who is righteous and shews himself to be such by his works; ... Hence two conclusions are to be drawn, that those in whom sin reigns cannot be reckoned among the members of Christ, and that they can by no means belong to his body ... all who are born of God lead a righteous and a holy life, because the Spirit of God restrains the lusting of sin ... John not only shews how efficaciously God works once in man, but plainly declares that the Spirit continues his grace in us to the last, so that inflexible perseverance is added to newness of life. Let us not, then, imagine with the Sophists that it is some neutral movement, which leaves men free either to follow or to reject; but let us know that our own hearts are so ruled by God's Spirit, that they constantly cleave to righteousness ... John declares that all who do not live righteously are not of God, because all those whom God calls, he regenerates by his Spirit. Hence newness of life is a perpetual evidence of divine adoption." John Calvin

Some of an Arminian persuasion may be surprised at hearing Charles Finney's position on this matter. For Finney is often characterized as Arminian, as in fact he is in some of his theology. But on this matter he states, "Another effect of gospel justification is to ensure sanctification. It not only insures all the means of sanctification, but the actual accomplishment of the work so that the individual who is truly converted will surely persevere in obedience till he is fitted for heaven and actually saved."

Arminianism

This doctrine declares that you can lose your salvation. It teaches that you obtain salvation through faith in Christ, but then you must maintain your salvation status or lose it. There's some variation in the Arminian community as to whether one loses salvation by sinning (in which case to maintain your salvation status, you would be required to maintain a certain outward performance or behavior [These I call "Hyper-Wesleyans"], or you lose it by simply not believing anymore [These I call "Wesleyans"], or a combination of these. Aminianism tends to be dominant in those churches that are derived from a Wesleyan tradition such churches as Methodist and Pentecostal (including Assembly of God).

What does the Bible Teach?
1. Can those born of God leave Christ?

1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Once Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Always Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
John indicates here that leaving Christ indicates that one had never been born of God

2. Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?

1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

The word "cannot" is the greek word "dunamai" where we get the English "dynamite" and it refers to ability (see its usage in Hebrews 7:25). Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. The word "remain" is the word "meno" which in 1John 3:6 is translated "lives" and means the same thing here. (see "meno" study further down)

See also A comparision of interpretations of 1John 3:9

Conclusion:

The basic resolution to the objections that both the Free Grace believers and Arminians have against Calvin's 5th point concerning the Perseverance of the Saints is to simply say that once born of God, a Christian loses the ability to chose to leave Christ and he loses the ability to chose to live a lifestyle of sin. If he does either of these, such is an indication that he had not yet been born of God. This is what the Bible teaches. Both the Free Grace believers and Arminians tend to object to this idea in that both groups believe that after being born of God, there is no change in your free will.

Should Christians Live in Fear?
If a doctrine has no application, then it has no relevance to the Christian life. What is the application of the Doctrine of Eternal Security? One application is to consider whether Christians should live in fear of going to hell. And if so, on what basis should they fear?

Free Grace advocates a "no fear" philosophy, regardless of the performance of the supposed "Christian". And even if one falls away and doesn't believe in Christ such a person is still supposedly "saved".

Lordship Salvation advocates that Christians should fear that perhaps they are only nominal Christians and have yet to be born of God. And thus they don't fear losing salvation, but they fear that they may not have gained it yet.

Arminians advocate that Christians should fearthat they may lose their salvation.

The Bible advocates the Calvinist point of view on this issue, as there are clear warnings to make sure you have been born of God, as in 2Cor 13:5, and warnings to nominal Christians against falling away (as I deal with below), yet the security of the true believer is also clearly advocated (as in Ephesians 1 and 1John 4:15-18) and other places. In fact 1John 4:18 advocates no fear of condemnation for those living in Christ as does Romans 8.

Verses which Advocate "Eternal Security"
Jeremiah 32:38-41 (Concerning the Promise of the New Covenant) "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul."

1John 2:19, 1John 3:6,9 (as explained above)

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (Combine this with Jeremiah 32:40 above)

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Romans 6:8 "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

Romans 8:9-10 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Notice the Calvinistic idea of the Perserverence of the Saints. If you belong to Christ, then the Spirit lives in you. And if the Spirit lives in you, the your general outlook and your lifestyle is not controlled by yourself (loss of free-will), but is controlled by the Holy Spirit. In which case, as it says in Rom 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." or if you prefer the King James "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (such a condition is automatically satisfied for those who belong to Christ as Rom 8:9,10 mention).

Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

1Cor 1:8,9 "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."

1Cor 3:15 "If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

1Cor 3:11-15 is the judgment that true believers face. Though all such people have eternal life, yet some will be rewarded more than others based on their performance. This is not a contradiction of John 5:24 which says that such people have already passed through the judgment, as the "judgment" it is referring to in that verse is the Great White Throne judgment in which unbelievers will be cast into hell. In the judgment here, it is not the person, but his works which will be burned up.

2Cor 1:21,22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

Ephesians 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--"

Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,"

Eph 1:13,14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-- to the praise of his glory."

Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

1Pet 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (xref Eph 1:14)

1John 5:4 "for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."
Answers to Supposed Scriptural Refutations of
"Eternal Security" used by Arminians
Parable of sower

Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Their belief did not have savific merit from the start. Not just any quality of faith is acceptable to God. These were nominal Christians who had not yet been saved.

Fallen from grace passage:

Galatians 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Nominal Christians on the road to salvation, getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers. They had fallen away from the concept of grace. Just having a concept of grace, as Paul was preaching doesn't make one saved. For accepting something as a concept is not the same as accepting something as a conviction. And it was evident by their listening to the legalistic teachers that they hadn't held grace as a conviction. (Just as the Hyper-Arminians reject the concept of grace)

"Meno" passages:

Passages using the Greek word "meno" are often misinterpreted due to misunderstanding the translation of this word. The word "meno" means simply "to live, to abide, to dwell". A command such "abide in me" is often misunderstood to mean "continue to remain in me just as you have been" when it may simply mean "Live in me starting now and continuing on indefinitely." The issue here is whether a person who has been "living" in Christ can stop living in Christ and live a lifestyle of sin and lose his salvation. John says NO!

1 John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin was ever a real Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains ("meno") in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

The word "cannot" is the greek word "dunamai" where we get the English "dynamite" and it refers to ability. Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. The word "remain" is the word "meno" which in 1John 3:6 is translated "lives" and means the same thing here.

"Living in Christ" is not so much a condition for salvation as it is a description of a saved person. Are there any verses which indicate that a person who has been living in Christ and who then stops living in Christ and loses his salvation status? Let us continue to consider other verses with this in mind.

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains ("lives") in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain ("live") in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

"If anyone does not live in me": This is not to say that such a man ever lived in Christ to begin with. But those who are real Christians will inevitably produce fruit, not by their own efforts, but simply because Christ produces such through them.

John 15:2 "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit" Here he doesn't use "live, abide or dwell", but simply says "in". I believe he's speaking of those who associate with the visible church, who have a surface knowledge of Christ, but who have not established a living relationship with Christ as is evident of their fruitlessness.

Notice from verse 5 that it is inevitable that branches that have a living relationship with the vine produce fruit. How does a branch produce fruit? It simply allows a passage way for nutrients to flow through it from the vine to the fruit. Why do some branches not produce fruit? Because they are only attached on the surface, but have not opened up inwardly to the Lord. These are nominal Christians.

1John 2:24 "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains ("lives") in you. If it does, you also will remain ("live") in the Son and in the Father."

This could simply mean "Make sure you're not just a nominal Christian, but a real Christian (one born of God). If you believe what you have heard and hold it as a conviction (rather than merely an opinion), then I guarentee that you will continue to live in Christ." Realize that John is speaking to those who call themselves "Christians", but then again how does he know that they are "real" Christians? This is the major subject of the book of 1John - HOW CAN YOU IDENTIFY THOSE BORN OF GOD. And provides many examples of those who call themselves Christians, but are not.

References to groups rather than individuals
There are often passages that refer to groups, such as churches or societies that are given warnings. But salvation is given only on an individual basis. So care must be taken not to misinterpret these to mean that an individual, once saved can them be lost.

Jewish and Gentile Societies

Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

From the context, Paul is not referring to individuals, but societies. The Jewish society as a whole was the "branch" broken off that he is referring to. But that is not true on an individual basis, for many Jews did believe. After all, Paul himself was Jewish. Paul's warning about being "cut off" is referring to the Gentiles as a group, or more specifically, to the society in which these "Christians" lived. This warning is repeated by Jesus in the first three chapters of Revelations where he said "If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." Most of the areas where the early Christian churches existed are now dominated by Islam - they're lampstands have been taken away. Why? Because the churches became nominal.
The Churches of Revelations
Revelation 2:5 "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

The church as a whole was becoming nominal and eventually would no longer be a lamp to the society around it. This is true of the history of many churches. Over generations they often become nominal. But again, this is not speaking on an individual basis.

Revelation 3:1-5 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

Most of this church was composed of dead-unsaved nominal Christians, just as Jesus says "you are dead". In 1John 5:12, Jesus says, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Most of these Christians did not have the Son. But a few did and to those Jesus promised that he would never blot out their names from the book of life.

Also, some point out that the phrase "I will never blot out his name" implies that there are some people who do have their name written in the book of life whose name will be blotted out. But it does not say that explicitly. However some will point out Luke 10:20 "However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." which was spoken to the disciples of whom we assume Judas was among them, but who was later condemned. Did he lose his salvation?

Besides the fact that no one had been born of God until the Spirit came at Pentecost and so the guarantees to those born of God were not effective until then, Jesus may not be telling them that their names were actually written in the book of life at that time. For example, if I said "Don't cry over spilt milk, rather cry at the lose of your brother." (Meaning the death of your brother), but in fact I'm not saying that your brother has died, but rather that if it occurs, cry over that. So Jesus may be saying "rejoice over your names being written in the book of life", not that they had yet been, and not over something like demons being subject to you.

Revelation 3:16-17 "So, because you are lukewarm-- neither hot nor cold-- I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

Again referring to nominal Christians who have not yet been saved. Though salvation (being born of God) occurs at a point in time, it usually takes a long process before a follower of Jesus is actually converted and so along the way, it's possible to get side-tracked and fall away, as many of these passages refer to.

Hebrews Passages:

Hebrews 6:4-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

This section describes a person who has been enlightened to understand the gospel. But just understanding the gospel doesn't make one saved. They have had a taste of the heavenly gift, possibly referring to the Holy Spirit which Peter calls a gift in Acts 2:38. In which case, "tasted" and "shared in" both refer to their experience with the Holy Spirit. Does this mean that such people were born of God? Romans 8:9 says "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." But do such people have the Spirit of God living IN them? The greek word for "shared in" (metochos) is literally "became partners with". It is first used in the New Testament in Lu 5:7 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them." This is the type of relationship that the Holy Spirit has with those He is helping to come to Christ in which he comes along side the person as a partner much as the people of Israel were led through the desert by the cloud and by the pillar of fire.

They also experienced how good the Word of God is, although had yet to really put their faith in it. They also experience miracles, which made them even more accountable in God's sight just as Jesus had said: "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you." Matt 11:21,22 Were such people born of God just because they had such experiences? No!

A person who has such knowledge and experience, and rejects Christ will be permanently lost. Having reject what the Holy Spirit had been revealing to him, he has sinned against the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus says, "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Mr 3:29 Having led the person to the point of salvation, having given him sufficient evidence to make a decision, and having been rejected, the Holy Spirit breaks His partnership with the unbelieving nominal Christian and never returns. For "land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:8

See also Wuest (Translator of the NASB) commentary on Heb 6:4

Hebrews 10:26-27 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Just "receiving the knowledge of the truth" does make one to be born of God. Knowledge itself doesn't save. And in particular, the "knowlege" here is epignosis, which is knowing about something. (As opposed to gnosis, which is relationship knowledge. So again he is referring to nominal Christians, as John says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1John 3:6 So if a "Christian" has such a behavior it is indicative that he has never been born of God.

Hebrews 10:38-39 "'But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.' But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."

vs 38 is a quote taken from Hab 2:4 from the Septuagint "If he should draw back my soul will have no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith." Was "my righteous one" born of God? No one was born of God until Pentacost. So what is true of those born of God (like 1John 3:6,9), was not necessarily true of those "righteous ones" in the Old Testament as in Heb 10:38. They could have shrunk back and been lost. But Hebrews makes clear this is not true of New Testament Christians who have been born of God as Heb 10:39 declares "we are not of those who shrink back." How could he make such a statement if it were not inevitable for true believers? The ones who "shrink back" are those in Heb 10:26,27 he had just mentioned above who were merely nominal Christians.

Doctrinal Apostasy passages:

Acts 20:30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders. Being an elder of a church doesn't mean you're born of God.
1 Timothy 1:18-21 "Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

It didn't say that Hymenaeus and Alexander had saving faith to begin with. Such were nominal Christians, never having been born of God.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 "Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Two cult leaders who had never been born of God are leading some nominal Christians astray.

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

"The faith" is referring to Christianity as defined in the Bible. Some nominal Christians will abandon Biblical Christianity for cults or other religions. Such indicate that they had never been born of God as John declares in 1John 2:19.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you."

Where does it say that the "some" who wandered from the faith had been born of God? Could John Wesley have been an example of such a person who wandered from the faith?

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-- bringing swift destruction on themselves."

Where does it say that these false prophets and false teachers had even been born of God? Jesus said "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" So according to Jesus, such people had never really been born of God.

2 Peter 3:17 "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

The term "secure position" is actually a single word "sterigmos" meaning "steadfastness". It is not declaring what their position actually is but is rather describing a characteristic of salvific faith. Its verb form is often translated "strengthen" or "stand firm". As in 1 Thessalonians 3:2 "We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God's fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith." James 5:8 "You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near." As such this verse is not saying that they have been saved and born of God. For Peter admits at the beginning of his letter that he is uncertain about their salvation status as he says, "Be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure." Paul does the same in 2Cor 13:5 where he says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test?" Peter is writing to them uncertain of their actual salvation status, but confident that at least they correct knowledge of the gospel, as he says, "you are firmly established in the truth you now have." 2Pet 1:12 But knowledge alone is not sufficient to save a person if one's faith is not characterized as a conviction - rather than a mere waverying opinion which may change from time to time when introduced to other ideas as the myths proposed by the false teachers whom Peter makes reference to throughout this letter.

He is warning the nominal Christians to make their belief in Christ into an unwavering conviction which inevitably produces the fruit of righteous behavior. For only then "if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Pet 1:10,11

2 John 8-9 "Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

It is not saying that such people who "run ahead" and claim to have new revelations and start their cults had ever belonged to God to begin with. (Once again this is explain in 1John 2:19 that those who are God's don't commit such apostasy) Continuing in the truth is an indication that one has been born of God, departing from it is an indication that one had never been born of God.

Moral Apostasy passages:

1 Timothy 6:9-10 "People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

The phrase "wandered from the faith" doesn't necessarily mean that they lose salvation. Nor does it indicate that such people where born of God to begin with.

2 Peter 2:20-22 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.""

"Kowing" here is not gnosis (relational knowledge), but epignosis (knowing about something). This is a description of people who have decided to follow Christ and so start to separate from sin and extricate themselves from the world's entanglements, yet whose faith had not yet been of the quality that was acceptable to God for salvation when they turn away from Christ and back to their own ways. Much as those who left Egypt and then regretted doing so later on. Such had never been born of God.

James 5:19-20 "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

This describes the conversion of a nominal Christian who has been living a lifestyle of sin.
Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

Doesn't say that the person lost his salvation and even so, doesn't say whether this person was merely a nominal Christian

Acts 5:1-10 The death of Ananias and Sapphira

This neither says that these were born of God not does it say that they perished after they died. Don't over-interpret historic passages.

Old Testament passages

Ezekiel 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Paul makes mention of this distinction in Romans 2:13 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Paul contrasts this performance-based righteousness to righteousness by faith in Romans 3:20-23 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Furthermore, as the passage is taken from Ezekiel, no one was born of God at that time. It wasn't until Pentacost that the new birth was available. So this is not saying that one born of God can lose his salvation.

More Verses

2Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Doesn't want any nominal Christians to perish, but all to be saved.

1Tim 4:16 "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

Paul exhorts Timothy that he will save himself from false teachings and other such heresies (note the context), if he carefully studies the Bible. One could say also that indirectly Paul is warning Timothy to make sure that he is a "real" Christian - born of God. By abiding in the Word of God. (1Pet 1:23; 1John 2:14)

More Warnings to Nominal Christians

2Cor 11:3,4 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."
1Cor 10:12 "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"
2Tim 2:12 "if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."
Heb 3:6 "But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast."
Col 1:22,23 "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
1Cor 15:2 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

The error that many Arminians make in interpreting such passages is that they assume that these are are talking about conditions for a person to be saved rather than realizing that these are describing attributes of a saved person. (Something to think about the next time you run across an "if" passage)

Kenneth Wuest
(A Translator of the NASB)
on Heb 6:4

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (NIV)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (AV)

"Partakers of the Holy Ghost"

We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold", and a preposition meaning "with" thus "to hold with." It is used in Luke 5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Hebrews 1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Hebrews 3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Hebrews 3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.

The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the Joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salvation ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughy done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their willingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.

Kenneth Wuest on
1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (NIV)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (AV)

The words "out from" and "of" in this verse are the translation of the preposition ek which is followed by the ablative case. There are two classifications of the ablative here, ablative of separation and ablative of source. In the statement, "They went out from use," we have the ablative of separation. These false teachers (antichrists) went out from the true believers in the sense that they departed doctrinally from the position of the Church as to the Person of the Lord Jesus, a position which they had held only in an intellectual way. It was a mental assent to the doctrines concerning, not a heart acceptance of, the Person of Christ.

In the words, "They were not of us," we have the ablative of source. That is, the antichrists did not have their source in the Mystical Body of Christ composed only of true believers. They were merely members of the visible, organized church on earth. They did not partake of the divine life animating the members of the Body of Christ, made up of true believers. All of which means that an apostate is an unsaved person who has mentally subscribed to the doctrines of the Christian faith and who then rejects those doctrines while still remaining within the organization of the visible church and posing as a Christian.

John argues that had these antichrists belonged to the Body of Christ, thus possessing the divine life in company with true believers, they would in that case have remained with these true believers in matters of doctrine. But, he says, they departed from the doctrinal position of the Church so that it could be shown that they did not belong to the company of the saints. The words of the A.V. are misleading, "that they were not all of us," the implication being left with the reader that some of these antichrists had belonged to the company of the saints. The translation should read, "All were not of us." In the Greek text, the verb separates not from all. In such cases, accordign to New Testament usage, the negation is universal. The A.V. not all makes it partial.

Oh and brother you our right that john wesley was an arminian and did believe you could fall out of your salvation if you chose. Sorry for putting his name on their.

I just begun a study of leviticus, and yesterday i was struck by the first verses, so i give here some more scripture for consideration. I know my calvinistic brethren wont agree, but anyway.

Lev 1:1-3 [b] And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.[/b]

[i]If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD....[/i]

this seem very, voluntary as the next verse says, i like more NKJV that says free will. I guess it is the same. What about those of Gods elect children who dident want to?

because all of Israel was the chosen ones, the elect, the redeemed. And how many of them came into the promise land?

so unless the eternal one changed, He still can deal with His people in ways He wills to do.

Gods calling v1, and our free will is bound up and unseparable, yes many scripturetwisters have tried do diminish the one or the other throughout the ages. But they are one because God made them so.

I think if a born again believer choses to not walk with the Lord, God wont force them against their will. What glory is there in that for God?

and if he indeed forces some into the kingdom against their will? why not all?

we should try avoid extreme God in one side and the other, in some cases it might be so, God pursued after some people who backsliden, and in other He might let them go.

I see both in scripture.

I am very glad some who come to the statement like "i dont know, but i see holes"

i to see holes in osas, and the other side to, and in calvinism and arminianism to.

Scripture is bigger and more wise then all doctrines of men. And a God we can figure out completely would not be a God that could amaze us continually.

The depths and riches of God is amazing, but often times when someone is so locked in one doctrine, hold it so thight i imagine it hard to twist it out of their dead hands.

I do see Gods power is able to keep us, and even from falling as is said in scripture, but the warnings, and the fearful verses many try explain away.... are to many and to frequent for me to ignore.

bible1985 wrote:
Oh and brother you our right that john wesley was an arminian and did believe you could fall out of your salvation if you chose. Sorry for putting his name on their.

probably Ravenhills name should not be there either, and not so sure about Paris Reidhead either.

Paris reidhead most certainly didn't think you could lose your salvation. I have 50 of his cds, and he gives the full impression that you cannot. I think that most of these teachers explain that their is a true conversion then their is is someone who just professes, which is the majority but their still a worker of iniquity within and haven't been changed into a worker of righteousness by christ Jesus. Hey brothers i am not trying to be an argumentative person but this is what the Lord has revealed to me over the past year when i thought i had lost my salvation because of sins i had committed. The Lord has shown me that their is a true fruitful christian and a false convert who hasn't changed and his word doesn't abide in them.

bible1985 wrote:
Hey brothers i am not trying to be an argumentative person but this is what the Lord has revealed to me over the past year when i thought i had lost my salvation because of sins i had committed. The Lord has shown me that their is a true fruitful christian and a false convert who hasn't changed and his word doesn't abide in them.

Bible1985, the thing is, we cannot just base on our own experience to say that this is true. For example, more than 1 person believes Calvinism is true because of his experience when God called him.

Each person's experience can widely differ, so we can't just based on our own individual experience.

Also, 'repentance' when first coming to God varies widely. Most will never be able to 'fully repent' in the way you stated when they are born again because they are not fully aware or the minimum not able to 'repent in that way yet'. As I've stated earlier, the repentance at times can be as little as just asking God to save you (and I even said Paul Washer saying that in 1 of his sermons). Do I suggest an easy prayer when asking Jesus to come into your heart? Absolutely not. But hopefully you understand that repentance when first coming to God to be born again varies widely and is not as narrow as you think. And I'm not referring to those majority that think they are born again by just saying a simple prayer.

When one gets the chance to see/read a wide array of people (Christians, people who fall and came back, people who until now fell away and yet to come back etc), one will not be so quick to say that this is this or that is that. The minimum is one will realise that God's actions and abilities cannot be construed in so simple a manner especially when there are seemingly conflicting verses in the bible.

I appreciate your participation in this and I'm sure it will help people and I certainly got something of value out of it, but I also hope that you do too.

Hello bible1985,

Would like to point out if you do a search of this site for instance on 'OSAS' you will find a great deal of prior discussion.

To be honest with you I would be concerned for anyone who takes this too far in endless extrapolation. It is not much different than the 'controversy' between an Arminian and Calvinistic point of view; One loses the forest for the trees, the argument for the greater content, the question becomes all consuming, sides are taken and we reach an impasse with only cyclical reasoning chasing it's tail into dizziness.

I take no 'side' on the question because I believe it is the wrong question, in fact is it ever asked in this [u]fashion[/u] in scripture? Not how one is saved, not endurance and preservation, not [i]if[/i] this situation or that situation, what do the scriptures actually say [i]to us[/i]? This matter is confused I believe because we have the wrong end of the stick. We start with a premise and then scurry about trying to build a foundation underneath it ...

Well if you have read the scriptures in corinthians where the man that continued in sin who would not repent, was given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. His rewards would be lost but his soul would be saved

Whoa there, that is colluding two different verses together, from two different contexts. The man given over to the devil for the destruction of his flesh was for the purpose of ... well what does it say? It says what it means, for that very purpose. There is no need to run off with extrapolations into an ultimate sense, it is very specific to the matter at hand. If we have not forgotten later on Paul brings the same man back to the Corinthians attention;

[i]But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.[/i] 2Co 2:5-9

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the mans salvation [i]unless[/i] we take it apart and take it to extremes to make it say what it never said nor intended to say. Surely we can guess at it and wonder [i]what might have been[/i] if he had done this that or the other, but this a very poor way of wrestling with the text of scripture, it clouds the matter and makes it even more difficult to answer the wrong headed question at the start ;-)

So what do I believe about this matter? Since we are so prone to acronyms and the like ... I will call it the doctrine of AYKM;

[i]Are You Kidding Me?[/i]

It is the doctrine of astonishment, that after all I have done and said, after two days ago, yesterday and all the longs year past that I could even lit up my eyes from the dust and say with Peter,

[i] ... he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.[/i]

It would be in kind to what Paris Reidhead also expressed in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=585&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url];

[i]I have talked with people that have no assurance that sins are forgiven. They want to feel safe, before they're willing to commit themselves to Christ. But I believe that the only ones whom God actually witnesses by His Spirit and are born of Him, are the people, whether they say it or not, that come to Jesus Christ and say something like this, "Lord Jesus, I'm going to obey you, and love you, and serve you, and do what you want me to do, as long as I live even if I go to Hell at the end of the road, simply because YOU ARE WORTHY TO BE LOVED, AND OBEYED, AND SERVED, and I'm not trying to make a deal with you!" Do you see the difference? Do you see the difference? Between a Levite serving for ten shekels and a shirt or a Micah building a chapel because God will do you good AND someone that repents for the glory of God.[/i]

"Do you see the difference"- That is the larger question than the one that has us squirming over and wrongly attributing our fallen cranial opinions upon those that have backslid, departed - been handed over to the destruction of the flesh. Who are we to say one way or the other? Who is to know the length and breadth of seasons of such things? It is an endless and I would say highly presumptive, prideful notion of ours to emphatically state that one was never saved to begin with as is the case with our brothers sister mentioned here. She is still alive, the end is not yet - [i]ye ought rather to forgive her, and comfort her[/i] may be just around the corner and maybe if we were less preoccupied with our notions we might be praying for just such a repentance, return and reconciliation.

Don't get the wrong idea here brother (Is it brother?). I am speaking in generalities even if it is your comments being taken to task, it's just that there is so much of them that they stand out more than others ...

That christian couple in acts who lied to the holy spirit after being saved, were dropped dead, did they lose their salvation, no.

That's purely speculative is it not? It doesn't say that one way or the other, why take off on it? You see it is not the possibilities and I am purposefully staying away from those to try and get to the simplicity of things. If it does not say it one way or the other than it seems to be a poor choice of example. In all likelihood the speculation may be true, [i]but[/i] since it does not state it explicitly then what ought it to do?

Where I am concerned with the formation of the cliché' is that it can give way to that very presumption and stave off [i]fear[/i]. Yes, fear! Fear of the Lord. Our tendencies are to focus too much on the creature (us) as it is anyway and loosen the intensity that should be in front of us. There is a tension that I could but pray would lead to an [i]astonishment[/i], ultimately, daily, hourly. Astonishment that it could be so, astonishment that [i]saved a wretch like me[/i]. An astonishment that though I sinned yesterday, today I awoke and the world had not been destroyed because of it, that I myself did not cause the downfall of us all. That is grace and it is a tremendous, not to be taken for granted attribute, but one that causes awe, fear, reverence - astonishment.

[i]Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/i] 1Co 10:12

The grand indicting verse. And what is the wherefore, the therefore before the wherefore to torture the language a bit ...

"Examples" - [i]Neither[/i] - In repetition. [i]Flee[/i] - Do not do this and do not do that. That is for us to do, it does us no good at all to ignore all the warnings given throughout scripture; to press on, to fight, to crucify the flesh, to endure, to persevere to the [i]end[/i]. It is a fallacy to state that Jesus did it all and then exhort us to [i]work out your salvation with fear and trembling[/i]. Though it is not always stated so graphically there is a tendency, an implication or inference that we are somehow eradicated from the process of our sanctification, our doing some [i]work[/i]. Apart is a different grasp altogether, in our own strength - certainly it is impossible, but we are not made automatons because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, far from it!

It talks in the gospel of john how nobody can pluck us out of the fathers hands, not even ourselves.

It does not state that brother.

[b]Pluck them[/b] - In the original to rob; to seize and bear away as a robber does his prey. Jesus holds them so secure and so certainly that no foe can surprise him as a robber does, or overcome him by force.

Albert Barnes

My emphasis there is on "not even ourselves" as you put it. You cannot steal yourself but you can at all times simply get up and walk away. What kind of love is it that holds you in ones iron grip when you wish to be free? Whether that be free to sin or to indulge yourself in sin, you can denounce your parents as many have, cut all ties with them and they may still yet love you or in turn they may just as well despise you. Which parent do we have in God? Scripture seems to indicate one that loves us so much that He gave His own Son to die for the likes of such ungrateful creatures, but He does not snare them in a net and take them captive against their so called will ... Ah, I can feel the questionings and reasonings develop, the whole machinations of gears grinding against each other ... But I am trying to stay on the outside of the engine here ...

[i]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.[/i] Heb 10:38

Barnes again;

[i]The apostle has retained the general sense of the passage, and the idea which he expresses is, that the unbeliever, or he who renounces his religion, will incur the divine displeasure. He will be a man exposed to the divine wrath; a man on whom God cannot look but with disapprobation. By this solemn consideration, therefore, the apostle urges on them the importance of perseverance, and the guilt and danger of apostasy from the Christian faith. If such a case should occur, no matter what might have been the former condition, and no matter what love or zeal might have been evinced, yet such an apostasy would expose the individual to the certain wrath of God. His former love could not save him, any more than the former obedience of the angels saved them from the horrors of eternal chains and darkness, or than the holiness in which Adam was created saved him and his posterity from the calamities which his apostasy incurred.[/i]

Now what I want to say is going to sting I think a little for some ... I think this notion, this construct is almost entirely selfish. It is a bit of a paradox if we are wishing all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth and then squabble over their assurance that it is so. We have to take things at face value without running off to ten thousand extrapolations. If your sins are forgiven then they are forgiven. Period. If the Lord said no one can snatch you out of His hand then it is so. Period. If the scriptures also state that you ought to [i]fear lest[/i] ... Then we ought to fear, you get the idea. I am staunchly against presumption and I believe the scriptures are quite adamant about the idea as well. We will live in some tension until we draw that last breath here on this earth. I find no dichotomy between having a certain confidence that the Lord will keep me just as long as I keep to His keeping and knowing that the temptation to go ahead and do what pleases the flesh is and will be that part of me that opposes my best efforts, that thwarts my intentions and spiritual desires - that very [i]law[/i] that Paul assess is fixed within the flesh and that at any moment I could go and chase after it, allow myself to be swindled by it's lie ... I can absolutely do so. The question is only this.

Will I?

bible1985 wrote:
I was saying that if she has now denounced Christ then she wasn't really saved. Do you see any christians denouncing Christ in the long run besides Judas , who wasn't really saved in the first place.If someone who is saved falls away into witchcraft,satan worship, denounces christ and say then comes back years later. No, they were unconverted the whole time.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. You and I do not know. There are certainly cases where people have walked away from God for years and came back and insisted that they were saved the 1st time. (I do not know the full extent of how bad it was). Wouldn't these people know better than you and I, after all they were the ones that went through the whole thing.

bible1985 wrote:
Oh and brother you our right that john wesley was an arminian and did believe you could fall out of your salvation if you chose. Sorry for putting his name on their.

Thank you! :-)

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. You and I do not know. There are certainly cases where people have walked away from God for years and came back and insisted that they were saved the 1st time. (I do not know the full extent of how bad it was). Wouldn't these people know better than you and I, after all they were the ones that went through the whole thing.

Can you tell me who exactly that would be and can i hear from them or see some testimony about it.

Paris Reidhead makes some good points on salvation. He likes to say that to be saved really is not the main thing we need to focus on and that it should not be the only reason we come to Christ. We come to Christ because we realized that we that we have been convicted that we our sinners and that we have been living in disobedience to God and we know that we need Gods mercy. We our lost and our not in fellowship with God. God created us for his glory and purpose to be in a relationship with him. Through Jesus Christ we our made righteous in Gods eyes if we trust and give our wills over to Christ. We our imputed with his righteousness and our justified of our sins once and for all. We shouldn't look at Jesus as a way just so we can be heaven and not go to hell, but our hearts should see ourselves as disobedient humans who want to be made by right by God so they can be obedient to him and be in a relationship with him. Paris makes a good point in ten shekels and a shirt when he says that some people want to be saved just because their skin is about to be stinged in hell and that they have not realized their rebellion and disobedience to God, they have not been convicted at all of their sins.

bible1985 wrote:
Can you tell me who exactly that would be and can i hear from them or see some testimony about it.

There is at least 1 person here who has said it in this forum--read the threads on this type of topics--you will find it. There's also 1 which I pointed earlier in the thread where I mentioned Leonard Ravenhill saying about this person. This person was saved by Jackie Pullinger (sp). There are others too but I don't keep track on which forums, websites etc they are in. If you are really interested, you need to spend time and effort to find out. Its best not to rely on others to do such things for you because while one is at it, one will learn other things too. And its going to take a lot of time and the more you find, the more things/questions you have on other things etc. And you realise that things are not so simple as one originally thought. The simple thing then will be to follow God with all your heart and that's what one needs. Those other things will only come in on certain occasions when one needs to use it to help others on certain things. I don't keep a list of these people as it does not serve any purpose.

When doing research, one has to be objective and not try to find something to support one's view and ignore the rest. Also, one needs to think that whether is it fruitful to do such things--there are many things that take our time which are not necessary. Speaking of that, I myself have to cut my own time spent in this forum.

:-P

To defend your reasoning about losing your salvation it would. I did not see anyone on this thread like that who gave a testimony about that happening to them. I have looked into the issue and all i have read is professing christians faloling away into real deep sin where they completely forgot about God then years or so later God started to convict them and they ended up fully surrendering for good and since then they hadn't fallen. I am trying to get some bible scholars to help defend me on this topic. I am waiting for some of their responses.

Hi John,

They key question to ask them is HOW they think they can lose their salvation.
a) Every time they sin? This is basically "see-saw salvation". A person might lose their salvation 100 times a week, but gain it back 90 times. Hopefully each Christian will die on an "uptick" and not a "downtick" and go to Hell, but you never can be sure. A Christian has not confidence they can go to heaven, - contradicted by 1 John 5:13.

b) Mortal vs. venial sins. If a Christian only loses salvation the "big ones", where is the definition of a "big one" and is the definition the same for every person. Again, you never really know, and would have trouble believing God's word in 1 John 5:13.

c) Conscious decision to walk away. Admittedly, some people do this, - never to come back. But 1 John 2:19 says they never really belonged to us. There is a concept of "counterfeit conversion", and people, like Judas, can walk and talk like a Christian and still be lost. But in Matthew 7:23 Jesus does NOT say, "I forgot you", but rather "I never knew you."

When people realize that you accept the concept of counterfeit conversion, they can see not losing your salvation as more reasonable. To me it is almost inconceivable that an all-knowing God, could have a person be "elect" from before the foundation of the world, and then either make a mistake or un-elect Him. God knew every single day of our lives in Psalm 139:16.

I did a four-part discussion with a Church of Christ person who believe a). It is at
www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/LoseSalvationOrNot/LoseSalvationOrNot.htm.

You can also look at Calvinism and non-Calvinism in general at www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/Predestination/TypesOfTulips.htm

All this being said, a Christian can be wrong about many things, including thinking you can lose your salvation, and still be a genuine Christian. Don't consider them as cultists or spiritual counterfeits, but rather as fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord who are misled.

Your brother in Christ,

Steve

My friend steve from biblequery.com has a debate with someone debating about losing your salvation. I recommend you all take a look at it, steve has a great website defending the bible and i think has very good knowledge.

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/LoseSalvationOrNot/LoseSalvationOrNot.htm

Hi bible1985...

You never answered my question(s). Do you think that a person who has truly turned to Christ, truly repented, and truly walked with God -- do you think that such a person can run ahead of Christ and then return to a life of willful sin?

I think that you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that you believe that such a person -- if they truly repented in the first place -- will eventually return to the faith?

But what if they don't? What if such a person dies in their sins?

For instance, Ray Boltz (the former-Christian singer) recently admitted that he divorced his wife and children and has become engrossed in homosexuality. I don't know if Ray Boltz was ever truly saved -- but I will assume that he was. He wrote many great songs and hymns. However, he is now living in gross sin of which he confesses that he has struggled with for over 30 years. What is the end of this man if he were to die while consuming himself in his sins?

The same can be said of anyone. I gave the example of my sister -- whom I am extremely confident was a true Christian. She used to weep as she pleaded with me to come to Christ. Now she is living in sin. I am praying for her to come back to Christ, yet she doesn't want to hear it. It is hard to believe the transformation -- because she is so unlike herself. In one year, she went from dedicated wife, mother and committed believer to an unrepentant adulterer. Ironically, the man with which she is having an affair (and claims to be "an evil atheist") has encouraged her that she is "still a Christian" (perhaps due to his Calvinist background?).

Yet this type of story can be told a thousand times over. There have been men on this website who have confessed to struggling with sin for years (and even decades)! They continuously repent of sins for which they never seem to overcome. Are we to assume that such men were "never truly saved" or that they are completely and eternally secure -- even though they sometimes partake in gross sin? I read a story about a supposedly devout Pastor in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas who died in his office while in the middle of a sexual sin with a young woman from his congregation. He literally died in his sin. Yet many in the congregation said that they expected to "see him in Glory."

I think that we can make a grave mistake by both failing to comprehend the vast greatness of God's saving grace AND by citing that "saving grace" as a crutch for thinking that we are secure while partaking in sin. Of course, I don't think that God is ready to take away the Holy Spirit from us at every mistake. His grace, goodness and love literally woo us back to Him in honest repentance. However, there is a difference when we literally "walk away" from Christ in order to consistantly fulfill the same temptations and willful sins -- such as the lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life. I wonder if some trample the grace of God under foot by living in sin while naming the Name of Jesus?

I think that the end of the matter is that the end of a person living in constant, unrepentant sin is eternal death. It doesn't matter if we argue whether or not such a person was ever truly saved in the first place. Rather, that person must confront themselves with the possibility of being eternally seperated from God as a result of loving sin more than our relationship with our Savior.

bible1985 wrote:
To defend your reasoning about losing your salvation it would. I did not see anyone on this thread like that who gave a testimony about that happening to them. I have looked into the issue and all i have read is professing christians faloling away into real deep sin where they completely forgot about God then years or so later God started to convict them and they ended up fully surrendering for good and since then they hadn't fallen. I am trying to get some bible scholars to help defend me on this topic. I am waiting for some of their responses.

Did I say this thread? I said this forum. Look, the thing with this type of discussions, is to put up good views/discussions and leave it as that. Even if all the scholars were to give their viewpoints, not everyone will be convinced. There are better things to do with one's time than continually doing the things which are of no benefit--its like butting one's head in a brick wall trying to make a way. That's why I said, put up good discussions/views and leave it as it is. No point for me in participating in this further as I've already made my point--whether you chose to accept/understand it, that's not for me to force. History has shown that this will continue to be an area where differences of views continue.

Edit: to clarify--there were 2 cases that I quoted, 1 was what Ravenhill said (which I mentioned 2x in this thread). Another was to be found in this forum and one had to search for it.

What do you consider willful sin. Don't all christians fall into committing willful sin. Yes we all do. I consider willful sin to mean that we have the knowledge of truth in Jesus Christ and we know what we must do to be saved and we decide to pass him up until the day they die. Which i would consider to be living in continued willful sin. Without Christ we our still in our sins and have not been cleansed but the fact that they our denying christ to me would be continued willful sin which they our trampling under the son of man their only sacrifice and their is no other sacrifice besides him so they die in their sins.

.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Take a look at that verse. The first 8 verses is saying or can be interpreted that would be impossible for a christian to walk away or fallaway and then come back because why it would put jesus to an open shame. So if someone loses their salvation, they most definitely cannot get it back from those first 8 verses that is what it says. But look at verse 9 and paul assures us that the things that accompany salvation that we have no need to worry, why because the holy spirit is greater than he who is in the world. Brother i understand your compassion towards your sister and others like this, but the Bible warns us continually also that their our false prophets and false christs. Their our those that our workers of iniquity and profess for an example not to single out anyone at all, but many in the churches profess faith in christ and they do everything to make theirselves look like christians and talk like christians. What they really our doing is filling a need within themselves or doing this to be prideful or to find direction, these my friend will fall away if they don't have the holy spirit. i know people on this site like to copy what i write and pin point every wrong that i am saying. But i will tell you this, if the spirit beareth witness that you our saved and you know Jesus truly you can be full assured that you have eternal life and jesus will not say i never knew you because if you lost your salvation he would not say i never knew you but that i once knew you but now i don't. No that would make him liar to say he never knew you but he did before at one time, but not now. No, he will say i knew you and i still know you. i have come for those who the father has given me. Brother about the minister. If he did die after he committed that maybe it was the fact that he would be hurting God's work on this earth and God took him away because of it. No if he was truly saved i don't think he lost his salvation, but he lost rewards in heaven from earthly work he did here. I recommend you reading the debate i posted about losing your salvation from brother steve from biblequery.com. Tell me what you think.

Hi Chris,

For instance, Ray Boltz (the former-Christian singer) recently admitted that he divorced his wife and children and has become engrossed in homosexuality. I don't know if Ray Boltz was ever truly saved -- but I will assume that he was. He wrote many great songs and hymns. However, he is now living in gross sin of which he confesses that he has struggled with for over 30 years. What is the end of this man if he were to die while consuming himself in his sins?

I know someone that went to church with Ray Boltz years ago. My guess would be that they'd say he was a Christian. I don't want to say for sure, because that would be putting words into their mouth.

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/LoseSalvationOrNot/LoseSalvationOrNot.htm

I recommend reading Mike's well-thought response yesterday. Good stuff.

I suppose that we should simply warn others to NEVER walk away (or "run ahead" -- as written in 2 John) from Christ or return to a life of sin (like a dog returns to his vomit). The end of such a life is not good.

:-(

So you our born of God and then you want to decide to go back to the world to be un born of God. So the flesh and satan defeat the holy spirit in this one. The holy spirit will finish the good work he starts in you. Better than worry about losing your salvation, it is better to make sure that you our truly born again and have known Christ. You see if you believe you can lose your salvation by your own choice or by sinning to bad or continuuing to sin you leave it at you being the one to perservere and not God. If it is going to depend on you, you all will fall and lose your salvation. But thank God the Lord is the one who overcomes the world for us through his son Jesus Christ.

If you can loose your salvation, then all those that are His elect are not His elect and God is a liar.

If Christ will not loose any the Father has given Him and you can loose your salvation, Then Christ is a liar also.

How can one loose what is not theirs to get? If I can get it I can loose it.

Salvation is not ours to get or keep. It is He who wills and in whom we live and move and have our being.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This "received Him", has nothing to do with our getting by anything we do, only by receiving it from God the Father have we received Him.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Who gives new birth to the believer?

God is not an abortionist. He will not take away our new birth.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (The Spirit of Christ and by the Living Water, in which we will never thirst. You cannot loose your birth right (salvation) If you are born of God you cannot be un-birthed. You are a son of the Living God by the only Begotten Son of God in you.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Can you loose it? Can you loose Him? Can you loose new birth? All by the will of God, not of man.

In Christ: Phillip

Great response Christ in You. I agree 1000 percent

Hi bible1985...

Brother, are you ever tempted to return to a life of sin? Do you ever feel the things of this world trying to steal your attention away from the things of God? Yes, I pray that I never turn away -- because I feel that I would be entirely miserable knowing what I know (or actually [u]WHO[/u] I know). Yet the temptation is ever present.

I know individuals who walked with God for years...and then turned back (or ran off...ahead...away from their faith in Christ). You may think yourself wise enough to assume that my sister may not have been saved. She certainly loved and served God. Yet the temptations of this world somehow became too enticing. She has left her husband...her family...and her faith. Does she still pray? I don't know, because she doesn't want to talk about God. Is she still "saved?" If you think that she can live a life of constant adultery (amongst many other sins) and somehow maintain her "status" as a "child of God" -- then I don't know what to tell you. But I knew my sister...and I know that she walked with Christ for many years.

I certainly pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to work in my sister's heart, but I believe that the ultimate decision of whether to return and follow Christ or not is up to her. We are not robots. We still have a free will (you can tell that I am not a Calvinist in this regard) with which we can use our lives as a returned gift to God.

You see if you believe you can lose your salvation by your own choice or by sinning to bad or continuuing to sin you leave it at you being the one to perservere and not God. If it is going to depend on you, you all will fall and lose your salvation. But thank God the Lord is the one who overcomes the world for us through his son Jesus Christ.

I suppose that what I am trying to say is that some people do fall "out of love" with the person of God. Perhaps some would suggest that such individuals were never truly "saved" to begin with -- and maybe they are right from an ETERNAL perspective.

If I ran into a burning home and rescued you from a fire, then you are presently saved -- as long as you don't run back into the burning house out of a love for the things that were left behind. Yes, the way of escape (perhaps a fire escape?) is always present...until the end of the house. I believe that SALVATION can be seen in regard to both PRESENT and ETERNAL perspectives. Is it possible that someone can be "saved" in terms of the present, but then depart the faith before being "faithful unto the end?" This is the situation involving my sister.

Yes, I pray that my sister returns to the faith. But what if she didn't? What if she were to die before repenting of her new life of sin? What would be the eternal condition of her soul? The Word seems quite clear that her eternal ending is not good. Yet some might try to argue that she has nothing to worry about in regard to her eternal destination -- because she truly got saved when she was 14 years old and walked with God for almost 20 years! I am under the persuasion that this just doesn't make sense. A true believer will not continue to live in sin. Yet my sister was certainly a true believer. This leads me to conclude that she departed the faith -- a premise that seems impossible by some OS/AS camps.

Once again: Do you think that it is possible that some can depart the faith? If so, do you think that some that depart the faith might not ever return? What is the end of such a person?

* * *

BTW, no one is talking about "losing" your salvation (as if it were a tangible object that you can place in your pocket). A better discussion that reflects the opinions of those of us who feel this way is that a person can DEPART THE FAITH. What is the end of such a person? It seems like some are trying to argue that either you can never truly "depart the faith" (even though the Word indicates a person can) or that such a person who does depart the faith was "never truly saved" (which negates the idea or "departing" the faith) or that they are eternally secure because they cannot "lose their salvation."

Thus, I think that it is ill-reflective of the conversation to use the term "lose your salvation." Rather, the question is best asked about what happens to those people who do depart the faith and never return.

Hey brother, I don't want to offend you at all between the thing with your sisters salvation. I don't want anyone upset with me at all by what i say, but i am just trying to defend what i believe is sound truth from the Bible. I think many of the verses people use to say you can lose their salvation our talking about something else especially hebrews ch.6 1-9 and hebrews ch. 10 verse 26. Also peter 2 vs.22 also is another one and the one from galations about falling from grace those our not talking about losing salvation at all. We can go through these verses one by one and i will try to show why they don't talk about losing salvation. I will say their our a few tough ones but their is many that speak on that you cannot lose your salvation too. I do not have the greatest vocabulary so many of my responses might not be scholarly but i will let what God reveals to me or what he already has answer them. i question early age salvation for the most part. i have a friend named stephanie who has been in the church her whole life and i'm sure she asked Jesus into her heart at a young age. She believes she is saved but her lifestyle proves she isn't. She party's and gets drunk, goes to hotels with her boyfriend, smokes , and hangsout with ungodly people. She never wants to talk about god, but she assumes she is saved just because she says she believes and goes to church and prayed a prayer. Her boyfriend too think the same about himself, but he loves to get drunk, he has cheated on her over 10 times, does not care about the things of God. I never have seen them care about the things of God at all. Do i think they were once saved, no. The church they go to has got them to believe they our and our not taught any different. Well i know what happened to me 4 and a half years ago when the lord came into my life and since that day my life has been God, God, God, God, God, all day. Since then i have only wanted more of him, have i fell into sin yes, really bad sin, yes. But i was chastened really bad. I always felt terrible about my sin. I think the problem here is that these people who fall away or say they believe and show no fruit were never changed by Jesus and never had a different relationship with their sin. They have gone by emotions in trusting in Jesus instead of truly having the holy spirit in them keeping the faith. Brother i disagree very much on losing your salvation, the Lord has revealed this to me when i thought i lost my own because of my sins. When your truly converted , i just don't think you can fall away. What is your sisters salvation testimony.

If I ran into a burning home and rescued you from a fire, then you are presently saved -- as long as you don't run back into the burning house out of a love for the things that were left behind. Yes, the way of escape (perhaps a fire escape?) is always present...until the end of the house. I believe that SALVATION can be seen in regard to both PRESENT and ETERNAL perspectives.

BTW, no one is talking about "losing" your salvation (as if it were a tangible object that you can place in your pocket). A better discussion that reflects the opinions of those of us who feel this way is that a person can DEPART THE FAITH.

Well said ccchhhrrriiisss, you explained that very well.

the Lord has revealed this to me when i thought i lost my own because of my sins.

Bible1985, I do not question whether this is your testimony and I agree with you completely as I also share the same witness of the faithfulness of Christ towards us. However, ...

[b]Matthew 24][/b]
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The word used here for "love" is "agape." This is referring to Christian love, that is believers; it is a warning to the church, not the world. Moreover, the context verifies this.

Nothing can seperate God from loving us but this makes no promise concerning us not seperating from loving Him.

The warning here is directly comparable to the parable of the sower.

[b]Matthew 24[/b]
9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

[b]Matthew 13[/b]
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The simple fact of this Scripture is that the word of God, that precious seed, was received (even with joy) in the believer's heart and put forth a branch, that is growing in grace. While the beginning of that believer was in the Spirit the end was in the flesh, for the life of the new-man was despised with offense [b]because of the word[/b]. When faced with temptation this believer loved his temporal life more than the eternal life of Christ.

I don't understand why the parable of the sower is considered so lightly these days. Jesus Himself said, "Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. ([b]Mark 4:13-14[/b])"

How can we possible say "they were never saved," or "born-again", when Jesus clearly explains that the seed of Life took root in their hearts.

Only those as explained here ...

[b]Mark 4[/b]
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

are those who were not affected by the hearing of the gospel. For when they heard ...

[b]Hebrews 4[/b]
2. the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The other two [b]plants[/b] (not mere seeds) died in the end.

While only the one plant by perserverance of faith endured until the end.

Quote:

"""Once again: Do you think that it is possible that some can depart the faith? If so, do you think that some that depart the faith might not ever return? What is the end of such a person?""

Who's faith are we talking about here? It is a person's faith or the faith of the Son of God imparted unto us that believe when we are saved.

If it is a person's faith, how much do we need to be saved? If you can move a mountain with your own faith, no bigger than a mustard seed, how much faith do we need to be saved? I cannot move a mountain, I can't even make a penny move. So that means of myself I have no faith, especially saving Faith, which can only come from one place and Person, from God's dwelling place and the Faith of the Son of God unto salvation.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The word, "of" or "in" is not in the Greek, so we cannot argue whether it is the Faith of Christ that saves us or our Faith in Christ that saves us. The Greek says plainly, "I live by the Faith Son of God." In this passage we must have faith in the Law, where there is not life, to save us and if we don't keep it we are not saved. That is why it takes the Faith Son of God to work out salvation in God's elect, those that are Christs', by His Faith that is born again in us.

If it is not our faith that saves us, how can we turn away from it. If it is our faith that saves us then we can turn away from our own faith, which is not the Saving Faith of the Son of God, who's life we now live by His Faith and Love for us on the Cross.

That is why it is impossible for those who have once tasted of the heavenly gift to fall away, for if they did fall away, they would have to crucify again the Son of God. Which God will never allow, so it is not falling away that is seen, but the impossibility of it happening, for if they were saved they could not return and re- crucify Christ. They would be eternally Lost, which is not in God's plan, God can forgive and does forgive all things except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, conviction of the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus Christ said, Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. We can sin and blaspheme Christ even, and all other manner of sin will be forgiven, but how can the conviction that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, if we say it is coming form Satan be forgiven, which we are saying if we deny the conviction of the Holy Spirit of sin and which will not be forgiven unto men.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

If you would rather believe a lie, and say this truth is only coming from a liar, I don't believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to me, It is a lie, who is a liar from the beginning?

Loose salvation, I don't think so, (imperative).

The parable of the Sower, He who plants in Good ground will receive fruit from His Seed. All else will turn away.

In Christ: Phillip

Bible1985, what do you think of Todd Bentley?
Was he born again in the first place? Will he be saved ultimately?

Please read this thread (especially from winthrup7) before you answer. It seems that God did know him but yet he has been seduced by other spirits. From the video clips etc that I've seen, I would think that there was demon influence in it and not just all human emotions. This is a more extreme case where spirits most likely are involved and yet it would seem he was called by God based on winthrup7's post

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25195&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Also, this thread if you are not that familiar with him
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23581&forum=35

Christinyou and Bible1985,

Is King Solomon saved? He maried many wives that turned him from the Lord. Yet, the Lord knew him and gave him wisdom before he turned away. In Matthew 7:23, it mentions--and then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. But people like King Solomon God knew. So is he saved? I don't think he turned back to God before he died?

Also, if a person that lives in sin eg: adultery etc, how long does it take for them to come back to the Lord if they were saved in the 1st place. Paul Washer says that if a real Christian sin, it will not take long before he repent, certainly not 10 years later. So how long will the Holy Spirit be quenched in us while this person go on sinning (eg : in adultery). Can the holy spirit be quenched for many years (say more than 5 years) until this person turns back to the Lord? David sinned, for how long, I do not know, although I don't think its years and years as his child died (not adult but child)

I am familiar with todd bentley and he fits in with that chapter about false prophets. He reminds of kenneth copeland, benny hinn, joel osteen, t.d jakes, joyce meyer etc. I see them all as professing christians with deceit in their hearts from the beginning. Or ravaging wolves in their hearts in sheeps clothing. You can see that his testimony wasn't true just for the fact that a child of God with the holy spirit wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be decieved by their testimonies, its their fruit in the end that will prove their authencity. I appreciate your kindness learn. It is always to meet kind people in general. ChristinYOU, you our very powerful when you speak. What our you doing in your calling for the Lord, i am sure he could use you. You seem to know God very closely. When you said that its not our faith but the saving faith that he gives us, i agree completely. Our faith would fall away from Christ but Gods faith will continue on. I am surprised you knew that, God bless you. I am not calvinist persuay but i agree that it is God when comes to our salvation and even our faith. I really do not know if God only chooses certain people, i wish i did know.

I really do not think Solomon had the holy spirit like us during thattime. It is possible Christ preached to him in abrahams bosom or the grave and he believed on the Lord Jesus but it is also possible that he wasn't given the chance for leaving the almighty God. Like Abraham and MOses and Joseph. They believed God and were given implanted with his righteousness. But solomon was not under grace as we our. The law was on the outside for them but with us it is written inside our hearts so that we will keep them after we our saved.

I would like to say that i really appreciate this website, i have had a lot of great discussions and interactions. I feel at home here with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

bible1985 wrote:
I am familiar with todd bentley and he fits in with that chapter about false prophets. He reminds of kenneth copeland, benny hinn, joel osteen, t.d jakes, joyce meyer etc. I see them all as professing christians with deceit in their hearts from the beginning. Or ravaging wolves in their hearts in sheeps clothing. You can see that his testimony wasn't true just for the fact that a child of God with the holy spirit wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be decieved by their testimonies, its their fruit in the end that will prove their authencity. I appreciate your kindness learn. It is always to meet kind people in general.

Bible1985, did you read winthrup7's post in the link I attached? I don't think winthrup7 is connected with Todd Bentley. If not for winthrup7's post, I would say that yes, he's like the rest. So I'm not so keen to agree completely with you on that although I do continue to warn on Todd B. for those who are unaware so that they do not fall for similar things or his last 'revival'.

Also, thanks for saying the nice things about me although I'm scratching my head in perplexity on this one.

Post edited

bible1985 wrote:
I really do not think Solomon had the holy spirit like us during thattime. It is possible Christ preached to him in abrahams bosom or the grave and he believed on the Lord Jesus but it is also possible that he wasn't given the chance for leaving the almighty God. Like Abraham and MOses and Joseph. They believed God and were given implanted with his righteousness. But solomon was not under grace as we our. The law was on the outside for them but with us it is written inside our hearts so that we will keep them after we our saved.

If king Solomon wasn't given the chance to leave God, then there seems to be a conflict here because he would have died in sin as I don't think he repented of his sins before he died. He married foreign wives which turned his heart to other false gods in his old age

Yah todd bentley is a big no no and so is anyone on tbn except maybe the way of the master. Watch out for people like morris cerrulino too. Even reinhard bonhke possibly too. I would even watch out for churches who want to change the culture of the church by getting more people to come to the church like bill hybels willow creek community church. It was o.k but i really think it is their get people to come back with all of its attractions of books, food, cafe and music. I don't want to draw people from outward worldly material or a watered down message. People need to hear the truth and the funny thing is most people hate the truth.I think that the truth of God is the only thing that will bring people to a true conviction and hopefully a true conversion. Truth from his word.

Hi Christinyou...

That is why it is impossible for those who have once tasted of the heavenly gift to fall away, for if they did fall away, they would have to crucify again the Son of God. Which God will never allow, so it is not falling away that is seen, but the impossibility of it happening, for if they were saved they could not return and re- crucify Christ. They would be eternally Lost, which is not in God's plan, God can forgive and does forgive all things except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, conviction of the Holy Spirit.

What is the end of a person who once walked with God but returned to a life of sin?

Are you assuming that this cannot happen? Yet it does. In fact, I would go so far that many of us are tempted to walk away or run ahead of the faith and return to a life of sin. What is the end of such a person as described in 2nd John -- the man who runs ahead. John said that such a person does not have God.

:-(

Zac Poonen speaks on some of the things touched in this thread[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25319&forum=34]Here[/url]

so i hope all take an hour to watch this, it will bless those who have an ear

hmmhmm wrote:
Zac Poonen speaks on some of the things touched in this thread[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25319&forum=34]Here[/url]

so i hope all take an hour to watch this, it will bless those who have an ear

No doubt it will help some. But the main thing in this thread is for those that really died in their sins ie they did not repent before they die. They followed God for so many years/decades, got the right gospel etc, seek and walk with God with all their heart and yet either finally felt that God never existed or they fall for the temptations in life. I believe the arguement is not so much about whether one can fall away or even how long one can fall away (although these have been asked/discussed) or the reasons why we fall away (eg: due to our own weakness, God allow us to fall away to build us up in the way He wants it) but whether one can reject/fall away completely and never come back.

If it were if one could fall or how long one could fall or why fall is needed, there would be very little 'disagreement'

This man explains almost every verse

Does the Bible Teach “Once Saved, Always Saved”?
Filed under: Bible Study, Biblical Doctrine: SALVATION - How to be Saved — Bearing The Cross @ 6:05 pm
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Does the Bible Teach “One Saved, Always Saved”?
By David J. Stewart
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins… For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 10:43; Romans 10:13)

Yes, and I will prove it from the Bible!!!

A man recently wrote to me, attacking me, saying that I am a false prophet, on my way to Hell, and am sinfully proud for teaching “Once saved, Always Saved” i.e. the eternal security of believers. He provided a list of numerous Scriptures as alleged evidence that salvation can be lost. I would like to examine each of the Scriptures he provided, and honestly consider what they really mean.

1st Corinthians 15:1-2

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

Please look down a few verses at 1st Corinthians 15:12-14

“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”

It is clear from verses 12-14 that the Apostle Paul is warning about unsaved religious people in the church in verses 1 and 2; not true believers in danger of losing their salvation. Paul is simply warning the churchgoers at Corinth that they had better examine their faith (see 2nd Corinthians 13:5), because some of them were denying the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Obviously, such a person would not be saved. There are many professed “Christians” today who deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the Godhead and the Virgin Birth. They are unsaved modernist imposters.

Once again, we clearly see how critics of eternal security pervert the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Hebrews 3:6 and 3:14

“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

Proponents of losing one’s salvation are guilty once again of taking Scripture out of context. Please consider Hebrews 3:14-19

“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Carefully notice in verses 18 and 19 the words “believed not” and “unbelief”. Clearly, these Scriptures are speaking about false Christians who were never saved to begin with; not about believers losing eternal life. America’s churches are filled with phonies, who act religious, talk with spiritual lingo, and think they are saved; but they are on their way to hell in unbelief.

Many of the Jews in the wilderness died in unbelief and went to Hell.

“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it” (Hebrews 4:2).

So what does Hebrews 3:6 exactly mean? It means that a truly born-again person can never be unborn, a change has taken place that is irreversible, and one’s continued faith in the Lord is evidence of it. A true believer won’t deny the Lord at some later time in life. Continuing faith is evidence of salvation; not a means to maintaining it. One who denies Jesus Christ, claiming that they “used to believe”, is a liar. No one ever lost their salvation. Certainly, many people who once possessed the philosophy of Christianity, or the organization of religion, or the culture of Christianity, may turn away from it and deny the faith. They simply gave up their churchianity; but they never had Christianity. Most religious people today do NOT have the Truth of God’s Word; but rather, the traditions and philosophies of sinful men.

Hebrews chapter 3 is speaking about unsaved Jews who went to Hell, because they heard Moses preach the Gospel, but had no faith (Hebrews 4:2). This has nothing to do with Christians.

Hebrews 10:19-31, 38-39

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Carefully notice Hebrews 10:38,39

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

The issue here is faith. These Scriptures plainly speak about unbelievers, i.e. fake Christians who go back into the world because they never had faith in Jesus Christ in the first place. Our churches are filled with such hypocrites today. Hebrews 10:29 mentions those who have “trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing.” No true Christian would do that. Believers trust Jesus Christ. This is all the writer of Hebrews is saying. One who departs from the Christian faith never had faith to begin with, and is hellbound to perdition in the Lake of Fire. No Christian can ever face perdition. Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15; 6:23). Salvation is without works (Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8,9).

Hebrews 10:26 states:

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.”

This verse speaks of the person who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. If, as those who teach you can lose salvation claim, Hebrews 10:26 applies to Christians, then we’re all in serious trouble. If there “remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” for the believer, then we’re all going to Hell. There’s no such thing as a believer who doesn’t sin. In fact, the Bible defines a “just man” as one who sins repeatedly; but keeps getting back up to live for God.

“For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again” (Proverb 26:16).

Wicked people don’t even try to live for God, because they have not the Holy Spirit of God (Romans 8:9). Christians, at best, are horrible sinners trying to live right, falling and getting up, falling and getting up, till the Lord returns or takes us home to glory (Romans 7:15-24). All Christians sin every day. This is the great folly of those who claim that salvation can be lost. If living in sin causes a person to lose salvation, then we’re all going to Hell, because we are all dirty, rotten, lousy sinners.

Hebrews 6:4-6

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

These Scriptures are speaking about unbelievers, who have heard the Gospel, have experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, and have had the opportunity to get saved; but have deliberately rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

It is ridiculous to claim that these Scriptures apply to believers, because the Bible uses the word “impossible” in Hebrews 6:4. Is it impossible for believers to repent of their sins and get right with God? Did not Peter repent after denying and cursing the name of Jesus? Yes, he did. Did not king David repent after impregnating Bathsheba in an adulterous affair and murdering her husband, Uriah? Yes, he did. 1st John 1:9 promises that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” So, clearly, Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about the unsaved. A person who rejects the Saviour is hellbound, and there is no other hope for them apart from Christ.

James 5:19-20

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

James 1:1 reveals that the Apostle was writing to his Jewish brethren.

“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.”

As is the case today, there were many unsaved people amongst the saved. Most of the Scriptures that the proponents of losing salvation claim are Scriptures speaking about unsaved religious people in the church. It is a grave mistake to interpret any Scripture without taking into consideration the truth that eternal life is a free gift.

Ephesians 2:8,9 state:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Ironically, proponents of losing salvation profess to believe in the gift of God; yet they contradict themselves horribly when they simultaneously teach that salvation can be lost through sin. By every definition of the term “gift“, it is something freely given, requiring nothing in return.

To say that salvation can be lost is to call God a liar. Repeatedly, in hundreds of Scriptures, the Word of God tells us that one who believes on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins SHALL BE SAVED (Romans 10:13; John 3:16).

John 15:2,6

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I’ve heard some preachers say this Scripture refers to premature death; however, I know plenty of believers who don’t go soulwinning, and don’t seem to care, and are living selfish lives. They should all be dead if that’s what John 15:2 and 6 mean; but they’re not. Clearly, the Scriptures mean something different, otherwise Christians would be nearly extinct.

Notice that John 15:6 says “as a branch“. Jesus was likening a fruitless believers to a fruitless tree. Most believer’s today are unproductive. Jesus told the parable of the seeds in Luke 8:5-15. There is no mention of premature death for believers who fail to go soulwinning. Jesus spoke of selfish believers who are choked by the cares and riches of this life (Luke 8:14), and never win anybody to Christ. Others are immature, having no roots, and are easily discouraged and quit. 1st Corinthians 3:15 teaches that some believers will receive nothing at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

2nd Corinthians 5:10 states:

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

There is nothing to indicate that John 15:1-7 are speaking about losing salvation. Clearly, these Scriptures are speaking about believers who fail to abide in Christ, and are thus rendered useless for God. The key to the Christian life is abiding in Christ by abiding in the Word of God. Believers with an honest and good heart will obey the Scriptures by sharing the Gospel with the lost. Carnal believers who do not will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:12).

1st John 3:6 and 9

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him… Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

This Scripture speaks of walking in the Spirit:

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16).

It has nothing to do with salvation, or losing salvation. Salvation cannot be lost. Only a believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them (Romans 8:9; 1st Corinthians 3:16). The unsaved walk in the flesh continually, because they have not the Spirit of God in them. That’s all 1st John 3:6 and 9 are talking about. It is impossible for any Christian to go even a day without sinning. Only a self-righteous hypocrite would claim otherwise.

Luke 12:42-46

“And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

These Scriptures warn of coming judgment upon the religious wicked, who know not Christ. We see this plainly taught in Matthew 7:21-23

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

No Christian will ever lose their salvation, nor be cast into Hell. If a believer commits adultery and murder, they will still go to Heaven. King David is an evidence of this Biblical fact. Certainly, no believer has God’s permission to sin, and the Lord will chastise His own (Hebrews 12:8). It is tragic that so many ignorant people are tampering with the Bible, wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. The important rule is to never interpret a single Scripture by itself, without taking into consideration the entire spectrum of Scriptures contained in the Bible. If your interpretation agrees with all other Scriptures, then you have found the correct interpretation.

Eternal life is a free gift, not conditioned upon the lifestyle we choose to live. Certainly, something is very wrong with a man who professes to be saved, but is still living a sinful life without Holy Spirit conviction. He is likely not saved; but Scriptures are filled with such examples of carnal believers who ARE saved, such as when Peter cursed and denied the name of Jesus publicly.

For anyone to teach that unfaithful believers will lose their salvation and burn in Hell goes contrary to other Scriptures in the Bible. Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly state that we are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus. Salvation is not of works, lest any man show boast. It is the gift of God. If living a faithful life is required to keep salvation, then we DO have grounds to boast, because we are working hard to make God happy and stay saved. The Bible condemns such thinking and tells us that salvation is a gift, freely received by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

How absurd that anyone would teach that believers must remain faithful, work hard for God, and walk the narrow path if they want to go to Heaven. False prophets like Paul Washer teach this kind of garbage. Paul Washer corrupts the Meaning of Matthew 7:14

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Mr. Washer differentiates between the words “gate” and “way” in Matthew 7:14, claiming that Jesus is the gate (which is correct), but the “way” refers to a continued life of holy living. This is heresy! Washer’s teaching completely ignores the plain truth of Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.“ Could the Word of God be any clearer? A sinner’s faith is counted for righteousness! It is Jesus who justifieth the UNGODLY by faith; NOT by works! A man’s faith in Jesus is equivalent to a life of righteousness. If Paul Washer is correct, i.e. that Jesus was teaching that salvation requires walking a strait “way” of continued obedience to God, then salvation is a PROCESS.

Luke 8:11-15

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”

Ray Comfort, amongst others, foolishly claim that the second group, i.e. the seeds which gladly received the Word at first but then fell away, represent the unsaved who believe on Christ but fail to repent. This is wrong. Luke 8:13 is speaking about saved people, because the Bible says they “receive the word with joy“. The unrepentant wicked don’t receive God’s Word with joy. The seed sprouted and began to grow, so there was a new life. The problem is that the roots didn’t have time to grow. A new believer needs to be mentored, which is what Jesus taught in Matthew 28:19,20. 1st Peter 2:2 teaches that new believers, as newborn babes, must feed on the milk of the Word in order to GROW.

Galatians 5:3-4

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

It is silly for anyone to quote this Scripture in an attempt to prove that salvation can be lost, because Galatians 5:4 clearly reveals that the issue at hand is works salvation. Anyone who attempts to enter Heaven by keeping the Law is bound for Hellfire. Again, salvation is of God, a free gift, which simply needs to be received on the basis that we are guilty sinners (Romans 3:19) in need of Jesus’ cleansing blood which washes our sins away (Revelation 1:5).

Romans 8:12-13

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

This Scripture is speaking about the spiritual life of the believer. 1st Timothy 5:6 states, “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” A believer who goes into sin, i.e. walks in the flesh, cannot please God. Romans 8:10 reads, “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” Our carnal, sinful flesh and the Spirit of God are diametrically opposed to each other. There is no fellowship between them. A believer who lives in sin is running from God, out of God will, just like Jonah in the Old Testament.

Romans 8:12-13 does not in any way indicate that salvation can be lost. A believer can walk in the flesh, which in effect kills the Spirit; but the Spirit of God is still there indwelling the believer.

In Hebrews 13:5 God promises:

“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

Proponents of the heresy that salvation can be lost are calling God a liar. God has promised never to leave nor to forsake His own. The heresies of Lordship Salvation and Losing Salvation are inseparably linked. Those who believe that salvation can be lost, out of necessity also believe that an effort must be made to remain in God’s saving grace. This is unbiblical. All that God requires is a childlike faith in His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to forgive our sins (Acts 10:43).

2nd Peter 2:20-22

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

Obviously, this Scripture taken by itself can be interpreted to mean multiple things. The only safe method to interpret this Scripture is by cross-referencing it with other Scriptures. This is why Jesus commanded us to “SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES” in John 5:39. I believe the context is clearly speaking about a person who has heard the Gospel, attended a church, played the religious game for awhile; but then went back into the sinful world.

If 2nd Peter 2:20-22 are speaking about believers, then it wouldn’t make any sense, because it require that a born-again believer go through the process of being “UNBORN”. That is impossible. Jesus NEVER said anything about being born again and again and again. No, rather, the spiritual birth occurs once, just as the physical birth occurs only once.

Again, if these Scriptures apply to the saved, then where does the gift of God come into play? If one can lose their salvation by going back into a life of sin, then salvation is NOT a gift, because we must live right to keep it. The big irony of all this is that even the best of Christians, who faithfully attend church, and sing in a choir, and tithe, and go soulwinning, are just as much dirty, rotten sinners as the believer who went to a whore house last night. That’s exactly what James 2;:10 teaches:

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

Whether it be a saint who faithfully attends church or a pimp who’s out on the street corner, “the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him” (Romans 10:12). If that harelips every dog in the county, I don’t care, the Bible teaches that a man’s faith is COUNTED for righteousness (Romans 4:5,22). I am not condoning sin, not at all. Believers who sin WILL be dealt with accordingly at the Judgment Seat of Christ (2nd Corinthians 5:10). I’m simply saying that we are all sinners, and just because our sins aren’t as bad in our own minds as the sins of others, doesn’t mean that they’re lost their salvation.

Another perplexing question for proponents of losing salvation is: If salvation can be lost, then how much sin musts a person commit to lose it? … a little? … a lot? … murder? … adultery? … two murders? … cursing Jesus like Peter did? How ridiculous and unbiblical is the idea that salvation can be lost. Salvation is of God; not man (John 1:10-12). How can we lose that which wasn’t ours to give in the first place? If we’re not saved by good works; then how can we be lost by bad works? We cannot! The man in 1st Corinthians 3:15 escaped the fires of Hell; but all his works were burned by fire and he had nothing to show for his wasted earthly life. Yet, he went to Heaven to be with His Saviour. Also see 1st Corinthians 5:1-5.

1st Timothy 4:16

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

This Scripture says “save thyself“. Consider Paul’s words in Philippians 2:12

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Carefully notice that the Bible doesn’t say to work out God’s salvation; but rather, “your own salvation“. This simply means that we are responsible for the life we live, whether we yield to the Holy Spirit or choose to follow our own selfish will. God has given mankind a freewill to decide for himself whether to live for God, or to live for the Devil and self.

In 1st Timothy 4:16, Paul is instructing Timothy in doctrinal matters. 1st Timothy 4:1 states:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils“

Paul is telling Timothy how to be saved from the errors of false doctrine, by taking heed and upholding Biblical doctrine. This clearly has nothing to do with salvation.

1st Timothy 4:1-3

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

These Scriptures speak of the unsaved, i.e. those who have departed from the faith. They teach false doctrines, like the Catholics, such as abstaining from meats and practicing celibacy. These are doctrines of devils. The masses of society today are departing from the faith, from genuine Christianity, from the Word of God, from morality, from prayer and Bible reading in the public schools,…etc. It is called APOSTASY!

This Scripture is no way indicates that born-again believers would quit their faith and lose their salvation. Such teaching is absurd. Once saved, Always Saved! We could also say, “Lost Now, Lost Then!” Or, “Saved Now, Saved Then!” You’re either saved today and will be saved eternally, or else you need to get saved. Salvation cannot be lost. Most of the Scriptures dishonestly twisted, in an attempt to propagate the heresy that salvation can be lost, are actually speaking about the wicked, many of whom have attended church and heard the Gospel preached, but have never been saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:21-23

“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

Carefully notice what Colossians 1:20 says

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

Clearly, it is the precious blood of Jesus Christ that brings peace with God. In typical fashion, proponents of the heresy that salvation can be lost fail to take into consideration all Scriptures as a whole. They pervert the Scriptures. Romans 6:23 plainly teaches that “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. This Scripture must be reconciled with all others. Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly teaches that mankind has nothing to do with salvation. It is of God.

Salvation is without works (Romans 4:5), and cannot be lost for any reason by those who believe on Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43). How can we lose something that wasn’t ours to give in the first place? Salvation is receiving; not giving. Once saved, always saved! The spiritual birth is as irreversible as is the physical birth.

Biblical Scholar, Kenneth S. Wuest, offers this accurate translation of Colossians 1:23

“Assuming indeed, that you are adhering to your faith, having been placed upon a foundation with the present result that you are on that foundation, firmly established, and that you are not continually being shifted away from your hope held out by the gospel which you heard, that gospel which was proclaimed in all creation, which is under heaven, of which I, Paul, became one who ministers.”

SOURCE: Wuest, K. S. Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans or Logos

Wuest also has an excellent note on Colossians 1:23, adding that

“The word “if” here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of “assuming that you continue in the faith.” That is, continuance in the gospel as it was preached by Paul would show that the person was saved and thus would be presented holy, without blemish, and unchargeable before God. That is, Paul was here addressing truly born-again Colossians, not unsaved professors of Christianity who would follow the Colossian heresy. Heretics would not so be presented, only true believers. It is not the retention of salvation that is in the apostle’s mind, but the possession of it that would be shown by their continuance in the gospel.”

SOURCE: Wuest, K. S. Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans or Logos

Pastor J. Vernon McGee states the following concerning Colossians 1:23

“Paul’s point is that we have been reconciled—it is an accomplished fact. So if you are a child of God today, you will continue in the faith grounded and settled. You will not be moved away from the hope of the gospel which you have heard.”

SOURCE: J. Vernon McGee: Thru the Bible Commentary: Thomas Nelson or Logos

Clearly, from studying the original Greek, it is evident that the Apostle Paul WASN’T warning Christians that they would lose their salvation if they failed to continue in the faith. Tragically, the internet is saturated with ignorant people who know nothing of the Greek, and are corrupting the Word of God shamelessly “As also in all his [Paul’s] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2nd Peter 3:9).

2nd Timothy 2:12-13

“Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

The context of these Scriptures plainly reveal that the issue at hand is belief: “If we believe not“. Clearly, this has nothing to do with losing salvation; but rather, the unsaved. This passage of Scripture speaks of those who have rejected Jesus Christ. Peter denied Jesus 3-times, but he didn’t lose his salvation. The issue is not losing salvation; but rather, have you been saved at all?

Matthew 5:13

“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.”

There is nothing in this Scripture to indicate that salvation can be lost. It just means that a believer who hides his candle under a bushel is displeasing to the Lord.

Ezekiel 18:24 and Ezekiel 33:12-13

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”

The best way to interpret the Bible is with the Bible! I’ve read so much heresy surrounding Ezekiel 18:24. As an example, the Congregational Holiness Church, the Wesleyan Holiness Movement, and the Charismatic Movement all misinterpret Ezekiel 18:24 to teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth! Oral Roberts and his family came from the Holiness Movement out of Oklahoma. He was a product that came from the Latter Rain Pentecostal Movement of the late 1940’s, and was a well known demonic faith healer. Taken by itself, out of context, Ezekiel 18:24 does appear to support the doctrine that a man can fall away from salvation. However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.

Ezekiel 33:12-13 state:

“Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”

Did you read that: “If he trust in his OWN righteousness“? This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4

“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, “And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” These Scriptures clearly eliminate “works” as a necessity to one’s eternal salvation. The damnable heresy that a believer can lose salvation is nothing less than a subtle form of Lordship Salvation. Whereas the Lordship Salvation crowd teaches that a person must forsake their sins to be saved; the eternal insecurity crowd teaches that committing sin will cause a person to lose salvation. Both heresies are based upon self-righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on the matter of salvation “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Again, carefully read Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.“

Conclusion

Eternal life is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by Jesus’ precious blood (1st Peter 1:18,19). We are saved by Jesus’ righteousness, and not by our own efforts. Our faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5). This is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:22).

Having said that, I just don’t understand how anyone could teach that a person must forsake personal sins in their life, or be willing to do so, in order to be saved. Certainly, genuine repentance should bring about a changed life (2nd Corinthians 5:17); but 1st Peter 2:2 speaks about being weaned as newborn babes on the milk of the Word that one may “grow”. It requires time for a new believer to grow in the Lord, some faster than others. It is rare that a new believer is willing to consecrate his/her life to the Lord right away, as in the uncommon case of Paul. The Bible says that “among the chief rulers also many believed on him“, but secretly so, for fear of being persecuted (John 12:42). All of Jesus’ disciples forsook Him prior to the cross.

It is hypocritical for self-righteous religious people today to condemn those who maintain the simplicity of the Biblical Gospel, i.e. we are guilty sinners and Jesus is the Saviour. Those who believe on Jesus to have their sins forgiven are saved! There is no other Gospel. Lordship Salvation and the heresy that salvation can be lost are wicked, rotten and straight out of the pits of Hell.
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” — Acts 10:43

It is written:

_____________________________
Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV

Read it again, without any of man's private interpretations on it this time. Ask God's Holy Spirit to teach you for It Is Written.

hey brother or sister did you read verse 9 in hebrews ch. 6. Paul isn't saying we can lose our salvation but that it is impossible for that to happen and he also could be talking about people who never came to true repentance in Christ. I have an article down the page explaining away that verse.

Jsisrl and Christinyou,

Since both of you believed that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then my questions to both of you are this:

1) Acts 5
Are both Ananias and his wife Sapphira saved? They died because they lied about the $.
Now, we know they have the holy spirit because Peter said that the Holy Spirit was lied to.

a)If you believe that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then you have to say that both were saved (although the bible did not say yes or no).

b)Also, if you say they were both saved, then if a Christian died in his sins (eg: adultery, stealing $, the grossest sins), then there's also a possibility that he is saved based solely on the view that Ananias and his wife were saved

If you are very confident that one cannot lose /reject one's salvation, then the answers to both questions above must be an unequivocal yes without any doubts.

2) Demas (2 Timothy 9-10)
Do your best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica

Now, Demas has been helping Paul in his ministry and it would be very likely that Paul would know whether he was born again or not. Yet, Demas left Paul. Now, we do not know whether Demas ever returned back to God ie whether he is really saved, but bear in mind this:

The Greek word for 'loved' in this verse is agape which is the same word used to describe the love of God or our relationship with God. The use of the word agape suggests that the love that Demas has for the world is just like the love we have for the Lord

If so, it would seem that based on :
--Paul very likely will know whether Demas was born again or not when Demas first join him (after all we are talking the apostle Paul here and not anybody) and Paul would only very likely take Demas to help him only if Demas was born again

--the greek word for 'love' here is agape which is the word used for the relationship between God and us.

So it would seem that based on the above sentences, Demas was born again and did depart from his faith.

Do you disagree with the above sentence then?

Of course,whether, he's finally saved or not, we can't say for sure as the ending is not given.

Learn you our missing the point Jesus didn't just save us of our sins from what we did before we were saved. He saved us from our sins from the past, present and future. It wasn't a partial atonement. THey died a sin unto death, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation because they couldn't repent before they died.

bible1985 wrote:
Learn you our missing the point Jesus didn't just save us of our sins from what we did before we were saved. He saved us from our sins from the past, present and future. It wasn't a partial atonement. THey died a sin unto death, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation because they couldn't repent before they died.

No, bible1985, I'm not missing the point at all, rather you misunderstand me. Haven't I said in an earlier post, that I'm more towards salvation cannot be lost although not 100%. However, if I'm to be convinced further, wouldn't I have questions on 'salvation cannot be lost/rejected' rather than the verses where salvation can be seemingly lost. After all if one is interested in believing that this is a chair and not a table, wouldn't one be asking the person who stoutly defend that its a chair questions to convince one that that's a chair.

Furthermore, people may say that they believe salvation cannot be lost/ rejected, BUT when it comes to cases like my earlier post, they will start to be hesistant on these cases to determine whether those people were saved.

Don't believe me--let me show it to you with an example. If we see a current case where somebody died in their sins --now if person A were to counter and said that person were really born again--what would be the reaction of person B (who believes that salvation cannot be lost/rejected). Person B will most likely say, most likely the person was never born again as he has been leading a sinful life for the last few years and died in his sins although in his earlier years he seemed to show the fruits of the spirit (but no fruits of the spirit in the later years). Isn't this the normal response.

So how many people (besides you) out of all those that believe salvation cannot be lost/rejected will say that that person who died in his sins (which he had for years) is saved if he was born again. I think very few would dare to say that and if so, even fewer will dare to say it with conviction. [Now when thinking of this, don't forget to refer to my earlier post on when Ananias and his wife who had the holy spirit died for lying--are they saved--that's why I asked those questions in my earlier post]

Does it mean that salvation cannot be lost/rejected is false? No. It just means that many a times I think people do not think things through thoroughly when supporting a doctrine wholeheartedly. If they had done so, some doubts may crept it (doesn't mean the doctrine is wrong though)

Hi bible1985...

bible1985 wrote:
Learn you our missing the point Jesus didn't just save us of our sins from what we did before we were saved. He saved us from our sins from the past, present and future. It wasn't a partial atonement. THey died a sin unto death, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation because they couldn't repent before they died.

God saved us from a life of living for ourselves rather than living for God. He saved us from the inability to overcome this world. He saved us from the eternal consequences of being completely unable to live for God.

Yet some people can cite this "salvation," run away from this and jump headfirst back into a life of sin.

Are we to assume that those who leave or willfully abandon their relationship with Jesus are somehow either "eternally secure" or be dismissed as "never really saved to begin with?"

Shouldn't our focus be on maintaining and drawing closer in our relationship with God rather than whether or not someone can walk away from God, live in sin and still be "saved?"

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi bible1985...

bible1985 wrote:
Learn you our missing the point Jesus didn't just save us of our sins from what we did before we were saved. He saved us from our sins from the past, present and future. It wasn't a partial atonement. THey died a sin unto death, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation because they couldn't repent before they died.

Then why do so many Christians continue to fall into sin? Why are all of us still tempted to fall into sin? If we are saved from sin -- they why do some people still swim and drown in them?

God saved us from a life of living for ourselves rather than living for God. He saved us from the inability to overcome this world. He saved us from the eternal consequences of being completely unable to live for God.

Yet some people can cite this "salvation," run away from this and jump headfirst back into a life of sin.

Are we to assume that those who leave or willfully abandon their relationship with Jesus are somehow either "eternally secure" or be dismissed as "never really saved to begin with?"

Shouldn't our focus be on maintaining and drawing closer in our relationship with God rather than whether or not someone can walk away from God, live in sin and still be "saved?"

Bible1985
There's still Philippians 1:6 . This verse is used to support one cannot lose/reject one's salvation ie ' being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus'.

So if based on the above verse, it would seem that anybody died in sin (eg: Ananias and his wife who had the holy spirit) would not be saved as I would tend to think that the good work involves also the fruit of the spirits. Yet there's also bible verses supporting one cannot lose/reject one's salvation(eg: Ephesians 1:13-14) that says
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.'

But then this would mean that people who were born again (ie has the holy spirit) would be saved even if they died in their sins.

This is one of the few threads that the 'opposing side' is not opposing at all, but rather friendly. Don't you, bible1985 realise, how much we want to believe that salvation cannot be lost/rejected and hoping that you convince us. However, we have questions and doubts that want answers.

LOL, typing the earlier sentence reminds me of Josh Mcdowell's book title, 'Evidence that demands a verdict

Matt 10:33[color=FF0000]But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven[/color] .

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: [b]if we deny him, he also will DENY US[/b]

I think that is pretty clear. Why can't we just believe 2 Tim 2:12.

Paul makes it pretty clear to me that we, real, genuine Christians can " deny him"-

Also, Paul once said: 1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means , when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway in this verse means reprobate/rejected/unfit/unproved-why does Paul even state that it is possible for him to become reprobate/rejected/DENIED. It is the same word used in Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is *rejected*, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

In 2 Tim 2:12 it is clear that the "we" are genuine, real Christians, as Paul includes himself by saying " if WE deny him..."

In the Bible, the word debt is interchangable with/for sin:

Matt 18:27 [color=FF0000]23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and [b]forgave him the debt[/b]. 28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, [b]till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you[/b], if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/color]

The lord of that servant forgave him all his debt.....but then a few verses later it said that same servant was thrown into prison TILL he should pay all that he owed his lord.

Then Jesus goes on to say that God the Father will do the very same thing if one genuine Christian brother doesn't forgive from the heart another christian brother.

It is picture of the lord forgiving a man his debt/sin....but then PUTTING IT BACK ON HIM because of his lack of compassion and mercy on the guy that owed him.

That is in line with the rest of scripture pertaining to saints:

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool(to his brother), shall be in danger of [b]hell fire[/b]

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer [b]hath eternal life abiding in him[/b].

If you look up the word "abidin" it means REMAINING, to remain-which 1 John 3:15 would read like this:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life REMAINING in him.

[url=http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3306&version=kjv]"ABIDING" in Greek[/url]

Chris actually God saved from our sins through his son jesus Christ not meaning that we stop sinning but that on judgement day we our implanted with Christs righteousness and not ours, so we have been saved of our sins which has separated us from god by what Jesus did, not anything we do at all. We can sin but we have Jesus who has already cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The ones who our his will not deny him, if they have the holy spirit they have the witness of the spirit in them, they cry abba father. Those our the ones who profess him today and forever.

Hi bible1985...

So are you using the ol' "[i]God sees Jesus and not my sins[/i]" argument? Keith Green mentions this sort of doctrinal view in his message, [i]What's Wrong with the Gospel[/i] (found here on SermonIndex). It seems odd that we think that we are no longer accountable for our sins after calling upon the Name of the Lord.

This sort of idea seems to "go against the grain" in regard to the Parable of the Sower. In this parable, some seeds were sown, grew, but were choked by the weeds (cares of this world). In other words, it seems that a person can grow in the faith of the Son of God but later be destroyed by becoming distracted by this world.

I suppose that the end of the matter is to not be caught in sin.

A person who is living in sin...and who has run ahead and apart from a relationship with Christ...who no longer cares about the things of God...or who cares more about the things of this world...and self...more than the things of God. What is the end of such a man? Are you trying to argue that such a person is "secure" because he once called upon, walked with, and sought the Lord? Or are you saying that such an individual was never truly saved (in the sense that they would have still gone to Hell if they had died while they thought that they were seeking and serving God)?

Yah if he saw our sins we would not have eternal life at all, he only sees Jesus's righteousness and not ours when coming to our salvation. Like i said and what John says in his epistle if they fall away they were not one of us from the beginning. They were never filled with the holy spirit or a child of God. Most christian scholars believe that you cannot lose your salvation. I put down a mans great defense of all the contoversial verses here down here and a debate from my friend steve, you passed them up because you won't change your mind even if given proof that your intrpreting the verses wrong. You must not know the power of the holy spirit.

I didn't read this whole thread, but I will say that I do not believe the elect can lose their salvation.

I trust the words of Christ, that say, "All the Father has given Me will come to Me, and they [i][b]shall[/b][/i] never perish." John 6 & 10

I trust the [i][b]shall's[/b][/i] of Christ are eternal.

Bible1985, that's why I gave the cases of Demas, Ananias and his wife (they had the holy spirit). I know very early on in this thread, you said Anaias and his wife was saved. But when come to present situations like this, I'm pretty sure, most people and maybe including you yourself will say that people who died in their sins are most likely never born again and thus not saved. That's why I quoted the cases and gave an example of a current case. That's why its so easy to say that one will not lose one's salvation but when faced with examples such that of current contemporary cases of people dying in their sins, they will then say these people are not saved and never born again (although they could have very well been born again based on what we see in the bible of Ananias, Saphira and Demas--they had the holy spirit (although Demas I will not say with certainty)--yet Ananais and Saphira died in their sins and Demas turned away).

Can't you see the contradiction stated by those that support eternal security as shown above or will you refuse to admit this.

We our all still sinning when we die, but we have the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sin once Jesus becomes the Lord of our life, we sin but his blood cleanses us for all of our sins. The Lord is not going to take away our salvation because we have sinned and were not able to confess before we died. When we sin we do not lose our salvation if we our saved.

John 15:2,6

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I’ve heard some preachers say this Scripture refers to premature death; however, I know plenty of believers who don’t go soulwinning, and don’t seem to care, and are living selfish lives. They should all be dead if that’s what John 15:2 and 6 mean; but they’re not. Clearly, the Scriptures mean something different, otherwise Christians would be nearly extinct.

Notice that John 15:6 says “as a branch“. Jesus was likening a fruitless believers to a fruitless tree. Most believer’s today are unproductive. Jesus told the parable of the seeds in Luke 8:5-15. There is no mention of premature death for believers who fail to go soulwinning. Jesus spoke of selfish believers who are choked by the cares and riches of this life (Luke 8:14), and never win anybody to Christ. Others are immature, having no roots, and are easily discouraged and quit. 1st Corinthians 3:15 teaches that some believers will receive nothing at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So a person that died in gross sins will still be saved or not? Look at my previous post to Christinyou and Jsrisrl which I attached again for convenience.

Jsisrl and Christinyou,

Since both of you believed that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then my questions to both of you are this:

1) Acts 5
Are both Ananias and his wife Sapphira saved? They died because they lied about the $.
Now, we know they have the holy spirit because Peter said that the Holy Spirit was lied to.

a)If you believe that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then you have to say that both were saved (although the bible did not say yes or no).

b)Also, if you say they were both saved, then if a Christian died in his sins (eg: adultery, stealing $, the grossest sins), then there's also a possibility that he is saved based solely on the view that Ananias and his wife were saved

If you are very confident that one cannot lose /reject one's salvation, then the answers to both questions above must be an unequivocal yes without any doubts.

2) Demas (2 Timothy 9-10)
Do your best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica

Now, Demas has been helping Paul in his ministry and it would be very likely that Paul would know whether he was born again or not. Yet, Demas left Paul. Now, we do not know whether Demas ever returned back to God ie whether he is really saved, but bear in mind this:

The Greek word for 'loved' in this verse is agape which is the same word used to describe the love of God or our relationship with God. The use of the word agape suggests that the love that Demas has for the world is just like the love we have for the Lord

If so, it would seem that based on :
--Paul very likely will know whether Demas was born again or not when Demas first join him (after all we are talking the apostle Paul here and not anybody) and Paul would only very likely take Demas to help him only if Demas was born again

--the greek word for 'love' here is agape which is the word used for the relationship between God and us.

So it would seem that based on the above sentences, Demas was born again and did depart from his faith.

Do you disagree with the above sentence then?

Of course,whether, he's finally saved or not, we can't say for sure as the ending is not given.

He lied he didn't depart from the faith, he died a physical death, that has nothing to do with a spiritual death. Have you lied since being a christian. The Bible is clear in hebrews that if you could lose the holy spirit then it would be impossible to get it back at all, but then in verse 9 he says that he is persuaded better things of you and the things that accompany salvation. The Lord will not take away his free gift but he punished them for hurting the cause for Christ and being a light he no longer had use for them here on earth and they did lose rewards i'm sure, because now God is judging them by what they have done after they been saved, no longer on their salvation, because they have that already.

But what about believers who sin?

Part of the reason why some people deny eternal security is due to their mistaken belief that when they were saved, God only forgave the sins they had committed up to that point in time. They feel they must keep confessing their sins daily to ‘stay saved’. If they commit a particularly bad sin, they will lose their salvation and need to be born again...again. However, the Bible is clear that when God justifies a sinner, He clears his guilt, past, present and future. The sinner is declared righteous on the basis of the propitiatory and substitutionary death of Christ. Think about it; when Christ died on the cross no one now living existed. All their sins were future! So, where are the sins of those who believe in Christ? They have been remitted and forgiven on the basis of their acceptance of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, and those who believe are justified from all things, from which they could not be justified by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39). God never reverses His justification of repentant sinners!

The daily sins of a believer must be confessed individually to God (1 John 1:9), but this is to maintain communion with Christ, not union with Christ. When God adopts into His family, a child of wrath becomes a son of God (1 John 3:1). Although a son in a human family may disobey his parents and be punished, nothing can change the fact of his sonship. Thus it is with a true child of God; the Lord will not cast him away.

Can Christians live as they like?

This seems a logical question at first sight, but it betrays a further misunderstanding of the nature of salvation. Paul encountered this objection when he expounded the twin truths of imputed righteousness and justification by ‘faith alone’ in Romans ch. 3. He states: ‘‘Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein? ’’ (Rom 6:2). He progresses the argument to explain that justified sinners have died to sin. Once the slaves of sin, they have now changed masters. Salvation never sets a man free to do as his sinful nature pleases. From the first moment, the new-born believer cries out ‘‘Lord, what do You want me to do’’ (Acts 9:5). There are no ‘free agents’ in the world, for all are either slaves of sin or bond-servants of Jesus Christ. When a sinner turns to God from idols, it is with a view to becoming God’s bond-slave (1 Thess 1:9).

True believers who fall into sin will be chastened by their Father (Heb 12:6-11) and disciplined by their local church (1 Cor 5:4-5); but any professing Christians who live in sin and go unpunished, only prove they were never saved in the first place (Heb 12:8) — for ‘‘whoever is born of God does not practise sin’’ (1 John 3:9). Thus, the Bible does not teach that those who profess Christianity but then return to their sinful ways are still ‘guaranteed heaven’. The Bible repeatedly emphasises the fact that “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Judas exemplifies this truth. That he never lost his salvation is clear from the Lord’s words to the 12 disciples; ‘‘Ye are clean, but not all ’’ (John 13:10). Judas had never been to Christ for cleansing and forgiveness. His actions proved he was an apostate, not a backslider.

But what about all those tricky verses?

Well known evangelical speakers and writers in the UK, like David Pawson and Jacob Prasch, attempt to prove from the Bible that Christians can lose their salvation. What verses do they employ in their teaching? Here are six typical verses:

1. ‘‘If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned’’ (John 15:6).

This verse concerns ‘abiding in Christ’ and refers to believers’ ‘communion’ - not ‘union’ - with Him. Thus the Lord Jesus Himself speaks in v10 of His own abiding in the Father. The figurative language of v6 speaks of one who, through lack of communion with Christ, loses his testimony before men (men gather and burn, not God).

2. ‘‘...you have fallen from grace’’ (Gal 5:4)

While the epistle to the Romans proves that sinners are saved by ‘faith plus nothing’, Galatians proves they stay saved by ‘faith plus nothing’. The irony is that many who would abhor any thought of earning salvation by works, attempt to keep their salvation by works, which theologically amounts to the same thing. One cannot keep by works the gift one received by faith (Rom 6:23). ‘Falling from grace’ in the context of Galatians, refers to those who were trying to keep the law to ‘stay saved’ and had therefore fallen away from the true teaching of salvation through grace. They had lost their understanding of true salvation (unmerited grace), not salvation itself.

3. ‘‘You...has He reconciled...if you continue in the faith’’ (Col 1:21-23)

Does this verse teach conditional salvation? Not at all. Repeatedly in scripture, ‘if’ simply means ‘since’. One may be asked to turn off a light switch and reply, ‘‘If you say so’’. So here in Colossians, the fact that some continues in the faith furnishes the proof of their salvation; it is not put forth as a condition of salvation.

4. ‘‘For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance’’ (Heb 6:6)

In checking the context here, it is clear that those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again. These Jews had come out of Christ-rejecting Judaism into a knowledge of the truth, yet they had stopped short of actual faith in Christ. With full knowledge of the gospel, they had turned their backs on Christ. The context clearly shows that the author of Hebrews did not have true believers in mind here. Verse 9 states: ‘‘But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.’’ In other words, no true believer can apostatise. (If this passage taught loss of salvation, the loss would be permanent — no repentance is possible according to v6).

5. ‘‘For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins’’ (Heb 10:26)

If this verse robs all deliberately sinning believers of salvation, then all are lost; for all believers commit deliberate sins. To avoid this particular doctrinal pitfall, it is vital to understand the ‘wilful sin’ in the context of the entire Hebrew epistle. Verse 26 refers to Jews who had come to a head-knowledge of the Messiah and then gone back to ritualistic Christ-rejecting Judaism. Then in v39 the position of true believers is contrasted with these Jewish apostates: ‘‘But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.’’ True believers may backslide, but they can never become apostate.

6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’. Believers are sheep (1 Pet 5:2), but here Peter is speaking of dogs and pigs (v22). They had a head-knowledge of the truth but had not truly repented. Finally, after an outward association with Christianity, they drifted back to the very depths of worldly pollution from which they had ‘escaped’.

So, each verse that may appear at first glance to teach conditional salvation, can be seen on closer inspection to teach no such thing. There is no space to deal with other verses here, but reference to sound evangelical commentaries will furnish plenty of helpful exposition to clarify any further difficulties.

4 Questions

Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:

i) What sin causes loss of salvation?

A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.

ii) How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?

Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.

iii) How is salvation recovered?

If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time — repentance is all that is needed!

iv) Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?

There is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness — after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Cor 2:6-8).

Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture — ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.

John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.

John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.

Eph 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.

Phil 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.

II Tim 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.

For further reading see also Heb 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13. The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

Michael J. Penfold

Arriving at a clear understanding of the true nature of salvation represents the first step in settling the question of eternal security. The Bible clearly teaches that at the very moment of genuine repentance and saving faith a sinner is:

· Converted - turned around (Acts 3:19)

· Reconciled - made at peace (2 Cor 5:19)

· Sanctified - set apart for God (1 Cor 1:2)

· Regenerated - given new life (1 Pet 1:23)

· Redeemed - purchased or bought back (1 Pet 1:18)

· Adopted - placed in God’s family as a son (Rom 8:15) and

· Justified - declared righteous by God (Rom 3:28, 2 Cor 5:21).

Furthermore the repentant sinner is sealed with, indwelt by, baptised in and anointed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, John 14:17, 1 Cor 12:13, 1 John 2:27). He receives eternal life (John 3:36) and because he is now ‘in Christ’, he is predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image (Rom 8:29). He has come from darkness to light, from death to life and from the power of Satan to God. Once he was blind but now he can see. Truly, he is blessed with all spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)!

From the very first moment of faith in Christ, all of this is equally true of every single child of God. These are positional truths unrelated to and independent of changing human emotions and feelings. Think for a minute: if Christians can lose their salvation, God is reversing all these actions in the lives of hundreds of people daily.

So if you can i hope any of you can answer this mans responses, none of you have, i have responded to yours, so respond to the articles that i have put out by these scholars or preachers or fellow christians. Their our a few more that our not on this page anymore so you will have to find them, but if you can respond to them without using other verses, please do.

learn wrote:
So a person that died in gross sins will still be saved or not? Look at my previous post to Christinyou and Jsrisrl which I attached again for convenience.

Jsisrl and Christinyou,

Since both of you believed that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then my questions to both of you are this:

1) Acts 5
Are both Ananias and his wife Sapphira saved? They died because they lied about the $.
Now, we know they have the holy spirit because Peter said that the Holy Spirit was lied to.

a)If you believe that one cannot lose/reject one's salvation, then you have to say that both were saved (although the bible did not say yes or no).

b)Also, if you say they were both saved, then if a Christian died in his sins (eg: adultery, stealing $, the grossest sins), then there's also a possibility that he is saved based solely on the view that Ananias and his wife were saved

If you are very confident that one cannot lose /reject one's salvation, then the answers to both questions above must be an unequivocal yes without any doubts.

2) Demas (2 Timothy 9-10)
Do your best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica

Now, Demas has been helping Paul in his ministry and it would be very likely that Paul would know whether he was born again or not. Yet, Demas left Paul. Now, we do not know whether Demas ever returned back to God ie whether he is really saved, but bear in mind this:

The Greek word for 'loved' in this verse is agape which is the same word used to describe the love of God or our relationship with God. The use of the word agape suggests that the love that Demas has for the world is just like the love we have for the Lord

If so, it would seem that based on :
--Paul very likely will know whether Demas was born again or not when Demas first join him (after all we are talking the apostle Paul here and not anybody) and Paul would only very likely take Demas to help him only if Demas was born again

--the greek word for 'love' here is agape which is the word used for the relationship between God and us.

So it would seem that based on the above sentences, Demas was born again and did depart from his faith.

Do you disagree with the above sentence then?

Of course,whether, he's finally saved or not, we can't say for sure as the ending is not given.

No answer on 1b)?

Yes they were saved even if they committed a gross sin.

Hi bible1985...

Yah if he saw our sins we would not have eternal life at all, he only sees Jesus's righteousness and not ours when coming to our salvation. Like i said and what John says in his epistle if they fall away they were not one of us from the beginning. They were never filled with the holy spirit or a child of God.

It seems like you are indicating a belief that it is impossible for a person who truly walks with Christ to EVER WALK AWAY. Is this what you are saying?

Or are you saying that a believer who happens to walk away from Christ will ALWAYS come back to Christ?

Or are you saying that a person who does walk away and perhaps never comes back has nothing to worry about -- because God only sees Jesus and not their continuous embrace of and returned life of sin?

Most christian scholars believe that you cannot lose your salvation.

Upon what are you basing this claim? I seem to have heard MANY Christian scholars who acknowledge that individuals can walk with Christ, abandon him, and return to a life of sin -- which they preach will lead to death. Even Leonard Ravenhill preached a message about "dogs who return to their vomit." I would hesitate to make a cliam that "most" scholars believe either way.

I put down a mans great defense of all the contoversial verses here down here and a debate from my friend steve, you passed them up because you won't change your mind even if given proof that your intrpreting the verses wrong. You must not know the power of the holy spirit.

So you now assume that I "[i]must not know the power of the Holy Spirit[/i]" simply because we disagree on the interpretation of some passages of Scripture? Brother, that is a strong accusation to make! You should refrain from doing so in the future, dear brother, because you might be unaware of the hurt that such statements can cause.

I know the verses that you indicate about why you don't think that a person can "lose" their salvation. But like I said before, this isn't really the debate at all. I don't think that "salvation" is a tangible item that can be held -- let alone lost. The great gift of God -- our salvation -- is personified by the death of Christ on the cross. His sacrifice, that provides our salvation, is a gift that can never be taken away.

However, I think that the questions that I am asking are about the people who have called upon the Lord, walked with God for years, maintained a relationship of prayer, fasting and worship, sought His face in truth, and yet still somehow forsook their first love -- and regained a love for the pleasures of this world.

I've known individuals with whom this has happened (such as my sister). It is easy to dismiss them as having "never truly been saved" -- simply because it might fit in with your own particular doctrinal views. Yet I know my sister loved and walked with the Lord. I have known others who are currently miserable because they have abandoned their long walk with God because their desires for the pleasures of this world was just too tempting.

I suppose that the root of the matter is actually the real definition of "salvation" according to the Scriptures. Is it a tangible item? Is it an eternal condition? Or is it simply the ability to know and fellowship with God following the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross? That ability to know Him can never be taken away -- because the sacrifice of Christ allows this relationship to be available to anyone and everyone.

I understand that there are a variety of thoughts on this issue. I suppose that this might be very important to you, since you seem very concerned with this issue. The bottom line should be a warning to NEVER walk away or run ahead of God. Remember the words found in 2 John 1:8-9...

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

I agree Chris we our disagreeing on scripture what does not prove if someone knows the power of the holy spirit or not. I think that people can walk with the knowledge of Christ and be drawn to Christ and even try to live for them but still not have true repentance the whole time and they fall away because they did not have the holy spirit to begin with. You do make good points and do point out testimonies and you know if i was wrong i would be the first to admit i was wrong, but i sincerely trust that the intrpretation that i'm getting is right on.

1. ‘‘If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned’’ (John 15:6).

This verse concerns ‘abiding in Christ’ and refers to believers’ ‘communion’ - not ‘union’ - with Him. Thus the Lord Jesus Himself speaks in v10 of His own abiding in the Father. The figurative language of v6 speaks of one who, through lack of communion with Christ, loses his testimony before men (men gather and burn, not God)

I agree with the article that i posted, we lose communion with christ but not union because that union is sealed unto the day of redemption, don't grieve the holy spirit during your time here on earth.

Hi bible1985...

But what if such a union is shaken by a bride who leaves her Groom and returns to sleep with the world?

Wouldn't such unfaithfulness indicate a break of that union?

learn wrote:
b)Also, if you say they were both saved, then if a Christian died in his sins (eg: adultery, stealing $, the grossest sins), then there's also a possibility that he is saved based solely on the view that Ananias and his wife were saved

bible1985 wrote:
Yes they were saved even if they committed a gross sin.

Ok, so you said that this person who has died in gross sins is saved. Appreciate the answer although I think many that hold on to eternal security would disagree or at least refuse to say yay/nay with you on that.

Did we have a choice in our natural birth?

If we are aborted before does not mean there was not life there.

On both accounts we have no choice and yet we live.

The Same with being born again. It is not our choice, it is the choice of The Parent.

Can you loose you natural birth? The only way I can see you loosing it is by suicide, but the life of the soul is still functioning, it will be judged.

The same for the soul/mind of man, depending on which spirit it is under. The spirit of our father the devil or the Spirit of our Father, Jesus Christ Spirit and the Holy Spirit all live in the believer. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and His Father making their abode with us.

We cannot choose to loose what is not our to loose. Just like we cannot choose to loose the life we had no choice in.

"The Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God". "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who live in me."

How can you loose it, it is not yours, it is God's in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Scriture Teaches:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part [b]out of the book of life[/b], AND out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There is only one way to have your name in the Book of life, and to have God "take away his part OUT of the book of life" has only one meaning.

bible1985 wrote:
I agree with the article that i posted, we lose communion with christ but not union because that union is sealed unto the day of redemption, don't grieve the holy spirit during your time here on earth.

The union is within commUNION-if you lose communion(totally), you have lost union.

To those of us who are married, if we were to stop communioning as husband & wife, do you still think the union of husband & wife would be there?

True christians do not take away from the book of life, you our all talking as if a christian is some deceptive person and decideds to leave the faith while the holy spirit is abiding in him, their is a difference between turning your head to or resisting the holy spirit when it draws you but when it has its abode in you its purpose to clean out your sinfulness and it will continue to do that until its gets out almost all of your sins. The holy spirit is suppose to conform us into the image of his son on a daily basis. If you our disobeying the Lord and not repenting the Lord will chastize you and break you down until you come weeping back to God. You our not going to be saying holy spirit leave me, i want nothing to do with you and its going to leave. The holy spirit will go against our will to make our wills to conform to gods will, that is what the holy spirit is their for. Because you sin the holy spirit is not going to leave but convict, if their is no response to the conviction, chastize, if not give your flesh over to satan until you repent for good. An example would be Job, satan was having almost all of Job but his life. Job didn't have the holy spirit like us but you can see that the Lord can allow us to be attacked by satan in the flesh and also in our lives so we can repent, Jobs was different but still satan had everything but his life. You see you think the holy spirit stays on our say so and you think that we our still our old creation never submitting to god, that is why the holy spirit is their because god knows you cannot perserve on your own and you would turn from in the end. The holy spirit is what makes you overcome the world, if you have the holy spirit your a new creation not still your old creation which will want to leave the lord, that is almost blaspheme, your taking the power of the Lord that is suppose to be in you and making it unto some weak thing that depends on you to continue on and not him. Your faith is sealed once you surrender and the holy spirit comes to be in you, that means you will have saving faith so you will not even want to leave and your faith will not change. Its Gods faith that he gives you and not of yourselves. Our faith would not perservere and you all should know that, we couldn't perservere and we not want anything to do with the lord at all. What the Lord has changed is changed for good. All those people who fall away from their faith were never saved and they proved it by falling away. What is walking away, is it sinning no, is it falling into a gross sin no, but it is to denounce the christ you said you believed, proving the person you said you knew, you never did. Like Jesus own words you worker of iniquity , i never knew you. Not i knew you once but now i don't, but i never knew you. Oh and these our people who professed to be christians and supposedly walked with the Lord but they never truly repented and gave their life completely to jesus.

"True christians do not take away from the book of life..."

I'm sorry bible1985, but the words of Jesus, are the words of Jesus. In Rev 22:19 Jesus did not speak of people who were not saved, or who were phonies.... he spoke of people whose names were in the book of life-and the only people whose name is in the book are Christians.

Jesus emphatically stated that during the end times " the love of MANY would wax cold"-that speaks of Christians as well in their love waxing cold towards God and towards man (brethren).

The fact is, they are christians, and Jesus makes it plain that the love of a Christian can "wax cold"-not they themselves, but their "LOVE would wax cold"-meaning a heart that once was on fire, walking with and serving the Lord, can grow cold if not properly and fervently " keeping themselves in the love of God".

We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God for that very reason-because if you don't , it is indeed very possibly for your love for the Father wax cold-thus, a cold heart.

The apostle Paul spoke of himself as possibly becoming reprobate-that says alot all on it's own.

Paul spoke of "making shipwreck of the faith" " denying the faith" " erroring from the faith" and to Christians, examine yourself and see if ye be "in the faith"....

The implication of Rev 22:19 are clear-that his person's name was in the book, in order for it to be " taken away from the book AND FROM THE HOLY CITY" (the Holy City is the New Jerusalem-in which ONLY Christians dwell)

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

How can one loose his birth, "the witness is in himself", I believe that I exist, because I do exist.

The same is for being born again, God must give birth and rebirth, the seed of Life. One natural birth as an earthly person. One spiritual birth, which is heavenly birth. You have no choice in either, you can only believe.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You may walk away from your earthly parents, but you are still their son. The same goes with God as our parent, you may walk away from Him, but but you are still His son.

If any would come to God and ask for salvation, and it be given then one could turn away and give it up.

But none come to God no not one. Salvation is of God, when it is given, it is not to be repented of. No man can make God a liar, and change his birthright, a son and heir with Christ of whom we Call, "Our Father".

In Christ? Christ in you? Who places us there?
How can you loose it?

Only the son of perdition, to fulfill the scriptures.

In Christ? YES
In Christ: Phillip

But none come to God no not one. Salvation is of God, when it is given, it is not to be repented of.

Great reply christ in you. I really am at a stand still with this discussion because no one really agrees and seems everybody is dead set on their belief at least most. I will still be reading everyones quotes and enjoy it, but this really isn't going anywhere, christian brothers and sisters. Their is a division in this between many of us. For me the main thing i want to point out is for anyone who is unsure if their saved make sure you our truly in the faith and if your unsure then your probably not or satan is messing with your mind. But as the Bible says you should have the witness within you that you our saved, if you don't and you want Jesus. Truly surrender your life to him and fully repent and believe that he has saved you of your sins and he will save you. God bless everyone and i appreciate all the great answers and replies that i have heard personally on both issues, but i would like to get on other subjects.

Just 1 person's thoughts

Parable of the sower

Luke 8:8
Still other seeds fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.

Luke 8:15
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop

The different types of soil have been used to describe the different type of people and only the last soil (ie good soil) will be successful.

However, I think it may have another meaning also. All the soils except the last soil was not the Holy Spirit. The last soil ie the good soil is the Holy Spirit--and that's why its successful. That means the Holy Spirit is the one that 'carries us' and prevent us from completely straying away forever or completely rejecting God forever.

Without the Holy Spirit, we will fail. Don't forget, we are not only fighting this world but also the devils who are loads cleverer than us. That's why God has to hold us and never let us go/reject Him once He has accepted us as our children (ie we being the elect)if we are to be His. Some may have doubts as to whether God will just never let us go (ie we don't have a choice to reject Him) just because at one point in time we asked God to come into our lives. But don't forget, God sees everything--past, present and future. Thus, while we do not know what we will do in the future, God already knows all this when He came into our lives. So the point of can God refuse to let us go or can we reject Him later on just because of that 1 particular point in life we turned to God is moot as God is not restricted by what we know/can see which is the present (and not the future).

I've known that eternal security verses are stronger than the asking us to persevere verses--I was once an OSAS believer and went through all the shenanigans of comparing eternal security and salvation can be lost. Guess am going back to OSAS (or I prefer OSKS--Once saved kept saved) as I just cannot see us succeeding (which may include falling away for goodness knows how long although its not easy to think that it be many years as I can't bear to imagine of the grief the Holy Spirit has to suffer) without the Holy Spirit in us all the time.

Also, I've always felt that the bible verses does not have only 1-2 meanings/intention but more. I'll give one now. God started with Israel first and no matter how stubborn Israel is or how much they rejected God, God will still save Israel in the end. Although Israel is a large group of people (and not everyone called an Israilean is saved), the 'part of Israel that is saved/going to be saved' can also be likened to 1 person. That means, no matter how much the person may want to misbehave and seek the temptations of the world or avoid trials, the Holy Spirit will not let him do this forever and ultimately bring him back to the fold (maybe/maybe not death could be an option???) This of course, is not in the bible, its just my way of thinking.

Also, I've always favoured the view that 'God is working in us' instead of 'we working for our salvation' in Phillipians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I have not really focused on the verses on asking us to persevere in this thread as I've done them in the past and can create some type of 'excuse' at least in my own mind. Plus, I've never denied the verses supporting OSKS is stronger than the former.

Maybe am wrong but have to admit that am rather tired to keep pondering this in my head and for the moment am willing to go back to OSKS.

If all else fails, hey have incorporated Paris Reidhead's sermon on 1 point (I have talked with people that have no assurance that sins are forgiven. They want to feel safe, before they're willing to commit themselves to Christ.)

ie : Am willing to serve God without having to feel saved first. Hopefully this will not need to happen. And if this fails to, then onwards to Hebrews 11 :-P

Okay, end of rambling and back to others quoting scriptures. (AKA the commercial is over and back to the main show)

:-P :-P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0M_4rKlR3k part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFLKkTpDQFI part 2

Christinyou wrote:
Did we have a choice in our natural birth?

If we are aborted before does not mean there was not life there.

On both accounts we have no choice and yet we live.

The Same with being born again. It is not our choice, it is the choice of The Parent.

Can you loose you natural birth? The only way I can see you loosing it is by suicide, but the life of the soul is still functioning, it will be judged.

The same for the soul/mind of man, depending on which spirit it is under. The spirit of our father the devil or the Spirit of our Father, Jesus Christ Spirit and the Holy Spirit all live in the believer. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and His Father making their abode with us.

We cannot choose to loose what is not our to loose. Just like we cannot choose to loose the life we had no choice in.

"The Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God". "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who live in me."

How can you loose it, it is not yours, it is God's in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Your analogy falls short...

explain where CHRISTINYOU analogy falls short. Please explain why we can answer all of the verses that you put on here with losing salvation, but you guys don't admit to taking them out of context. Not meaning to seem rude, but many of those verses you take out of context.

True christians do not take away from the book of life

Bible1985,

What in the world do the verses in Rev. 22, Hebrews, and John 15 and 16:1, mean to you then?

I have answered the book of hebrews many times pertainings to chapter 6 verses 1-9 and hebrews ch. 26.
I have put 3 defenses from christians who have done a detailed discussion on almost all of this, look at them, those answers they give our probably going to be as good as they get. If you don't agree, show where you don't agree and i will answer them.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
revelation ch. 22

Why would a true christian take the words out of this book, they wouldn't because it would be an offense to even think about doing that having God's spirit abiding in you. The only ones who take away our the ones who have the spirit of the antichrist or who not children of God.

john 16:1
1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
I do not see anything their with the controversy that we our studying, did you have a mistype.

Lets take at at something jesus quotes from john 15

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Right their it is saying that he ordained and chosen the disciples that their fruit would remain.

John 15:2,6

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I’ve heard some preachers say this Scripture refers to premature death; however, I know plenty of believers who don’t go soulwinning, and don’t seem to care, and are living selfish lives. They should all be dead if that’s what John 15:2 and 6 mean; but they’re not. Clearly, the Scriptures mean something different, otherwise Christians would be nearly extinct.

Notice that John 15:6 says “as a branch“. Jesus was likening a fruitless believers to a fruitless tree. Most believer’s today are unproductive. Jesus told the parable of the seeds in Luke 8:5-15. There is no mention of premature death for believers who fail to go soulwinning. Jesus spoke of selfish believers who are choked by the cares and riches of this life (Luke 8:14), and never win anybody to Christ. Others are immature, having no roots, and are easily discouraged and quit. 1st Corinthians 3:15 teaches that some believers will receive nothing at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Eighteen Biblical Examples Of People Who Once Had Saving Faith.

by Dan Corner

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It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. 1Sa 15:11

All reference sources are listed at the end of the article. Copyright by Daniel D. Corner. However, for the sake of truth and eternal souls, you have our permission to copy this article for free distribution but NOT TO SELL.

In disbelief to a conditional security, the author of a tract wrote: Show me one man in the Scriptures who was saved and then lost. (1) The following section will cite eighteen Scriptural examples of such—two from the Old Testament and sixteen from the New Testament.

Saul

Out of all of Israel, God himself chose Saul to be the leader over his inheritance (1 Sam. 10:1 cf. 9:16,17). Since we learn later that God rejected David’s oldest brother (Eliab) to be king because of a wrong heart condition (1 Sam. 16:6,7 cf. 17:28), aren’t we safe to say God must have chosen Saul to be king on the basis of a proper heart condition? It is also inconceivable that God would have his prophet anoint an unsaved man to be king over his people!

Scripture declares that Saul, in his early days, had the Spirit of God come upon him in power (1 Sam. 10:10). Later, however, God said of the same man:

I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments (1 Sam. 15:11, NKJV).

Saul turned back from following God. Doesn’t this clearly indicate that Saul was with God before that point? Soon after Saul stopped following the Lord, we read:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Sam. 16:14, NKJV).

After this we read of Saul’s spiritual decline. His jealousy of David (1 Sam. 18:7-9) led to other sins, including multiple murder attempts on David’s life (and even on the life of Jonathan, Saul’s own son). See 1 Sam. 18:11; 19:10; 20:33.

Saul also unjustly ordered the murder of 85 men who wore the linen ephod and put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests with its men, women, children and infants (1 Sam. 22:18,19). The Bible declares that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John. 3:15, NKJV).

In spite of all of this, some still think Saul was saved at the very end of his life since Samuel, who died in a saved condition, told him:

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me . . . (1 Sam. 28:19, NKJV). 2

Two points need to be noted in conjunction with that verse. First, to quote 1 Sam. 28:19 is to start too late in the passage. We should begin the quote at verse 16:

Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines” (NKJV).

At that point in time, God had become Saul’s enemy. According to Hebrews 10:27, raging fire will consume the enemies of God. Saul only had one day left to live, yet he still never repented! In fact, he took his own life (1 Sam. 31:4). So from the point of 1 Sam. 15:11 to the very end of his life, Saul never turned back to God. It is, therefore, impossible that he could have escaped fiery torment beyond the grave, since he died an enemy of God.

Secondly, many people fail to understand that back in the prophet Samuel’s day, both the righteous and wicked people went to Hades (or Sheol)! This is graphically shown in Lk. 16:19-31. There we see righteous Abraham and Lazarus were in a place of contentment and separated by an impassable gulf from the rich, Jewish person who died in his sins in need of repentance. That same unrepentant man was in fiery torment. In light of this, righteous Samuel could say that wicked Saul will be with me, meaning he would be dead and in Hades. But according to other Scriptural evidence, he would be in fire on the opposite side of the gulf from where the prophet Samuel was.

Saul is clearly an example of a person who once followed God (1 Sam. 15:11), but afterwards turned away to the point where he became God’s enemy (1 Sam. 28:16) and committed self-murder (1 Sam. 31:4,5).

In other words, Scripture states Saul totally and finally fell away from the faith, in spite of how this contradicts the Westminster Confession and certain once saved always saved [OSAS] teachers!

Solomon

Solomon is an example of a person who walked with God for decades. However, in his latter years, he turned from God and never came back!

So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD had commanded (1 Ki. 11:9,10, NKJV).

This same man had a most unusual beginning with the Lord. God gave him incredible wisdom to govern Israel and beyond that both riches and honor (1 Ki. 3:12,13). He also had the unique privilege of building the Temple. When he finished his prayer of dedicating the Temple fire came down out of heaven:

When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the Lord’s house (2 Chron. 7:1,2, NKJV).

Solomon actually saw God twice (1 Ki. 11:9), and was used to write part of the Bible.

However, after this man walked faithfully with God for decades, as he grew old “his wives turned his heart after other gods” (1 Ki. 11:4, NIV).

Imagine that! True worship and sacrifice was offered to God at the Temple that Solomon built, yet this same man was adversely influenced to go after pagan gods because of his pagan wives. (Single people, remember Solomon and take warning! Marry only in the Lord. See also Neh. 13:26.)

Solomon’s heart turned away from God to idolatry! There is not one scintilla of Scriptural proof to say that he ever came back to God in the book of Ecclesiastes or anywhere else in the Bible. None! If the OSAS people think there is, then let them supply a specific chapter and verse which clearly says so. The burden of proof is on them to show that Solomon returned to God, but it is impossible to prove this.

Prior to Solomon’s heart turning away from God, we read:

He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever (1 Chron. 22:10, NIV).

Those words were spoken by a prophet of God to David about Solomon. Hence, at one point, God was Solomon’s spiritual father and Solomon was God’s son. Yet, in spite of this he was warned that if he forsook God, God would reject him forever:

If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever (1 Chron. 28:9, NIV).

Unfortunately, the Scriptural record shows that this warning against apostasy didn’t prevent it from happening. Because Solomon forsook God, God was faithful to his warning and likewise rejected him forever! Solomon’s past faithfulness and services to the LORD, as God’s son, had no bearing whatsoever on what God would do to him if he forsook God. Neither would the fact of God loving him (2 Sam. 12:24,25; Neh. 13:26) prevent this. In other words, there is no seniority with the LORD or security for any saint who would forsake God for idolatry.

OSAS defenders write of Solomon:

Over the fate of Solomon there rests such a cloud and silence that many good men conclude he was lost: on the other hand there are those who do not believe that he so fell as to lose the favor of God and perish eternally. [5]

But the very last details of Solomon’s life are much clearer than some would like to think. Regretfully, Solomon never repented, for he tried to thwart the will of God by attempting to murder Jeroboam, God’s choice to rule over the ten tribes he was going to tear from his hand (1 Ki. 11:31). Consequently, Jeroboam fled to Egypt from Jerusalem until Solomon’s death.

Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam. But Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt, to Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon (1 Ki. 11:40, NKJV).

If Solomon would have repented after this attempt Jeroboam would have been safe to return, but he wasn’t safe as long as Solomon was alive and Jeroboam knew it! Since Solomon died in such a spiritual state and the Apostle John wrote that no murderer has eternal life (1 John. 3:15), then we can only conclude Solomon died in a lost spiritual condition. In Rev. 21:8 God also states where the unrepentant idolaters and murderers will go—to the lake of fire.

There is, therefore, no cloud and silence over Solomon’s fate, as some say, except for those who refuse to accept the obvious evidence of Scripture in favor of some manmade confession or doctrine. Moreover, to say Solomon did not fall as to lose the favor of God and perish eternally is to say one can be an unrepentant idolater (and murderous) and not go to the lake of fire, which is clearly antithetical to what God says (Rev. 21:8).

This information about Solomon, who totally and finally fell away from the faith, also shows that certain verses from the Old Testament that allegedly show the believer is [unconditionally] preserved by the Lord have been misinterpreted. Usually, Psalm 37:24,28 are cited for such. 6 Robert Morey is another OSAS defender who makes the same kind of misinterpretation from the Old Testament. [7] If those Scriptures really teach we are unconditionally preserved by the Lord, why didn’t it work for Solomon? Man’s free will and human responsibilities after his salvation must have a role in him being preserved by the Lord, as Solomon’s example shows; if man’s free will didn’t then Solomon would have remained faithful, since God doesn’t want any to perish and he never fails!

Solomon’s life (as well as Saul’s) also disproves a different concept held by OSAS teachers (moderate form) such as what is taught by Kennedy:

That person may fall into sin occasionally, but he will not live in that sin (italics his). 8

After he turned away from God, Solomon, just like Saul, did continue to live in sin till the end of his natural life. Therefore, dogmatic assertions to the contrary must be rejected: No one can point to someone who was indisputably a true believer who permanently apostatized. 9

Those Who Believe For A While

Jesus communicated the secrets of the kingdom to the saved through parables (Mt. 13:11-15; Lk. 8:9,10). Several of these parables are very destructive to OSAS, especially the one called the Parable of the Sower which is found in all three of the synoptic gospels (Mt. 13:3-9 cf. 13:18-23; Mk. 4:3-8 cf. 4:14-20 and Lk. 8:5-8 cf. 8:11-15). This parable is one of the only two for which the Lord actually gives an interpretation. (The other parable the Lord interpreted is the Parable of the Weeds.)

In the Parable of the Sower, the Lord spoke of four types of people who hear the word of God. Of those four types:

Type A never gets saved—the seed never produced a plant.

Type B is the one we’ll focus in upon in detail, those on the rock.

Type C is the person who hears the word of God, but his fruitfulness for God is choked out by thorns—the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth.

Only Type D person has a heart likened unto good soil that produces a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

In reference to the Type B person mentioned in the Parable of the Sower, Jesus said in Lk. 8:13:

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away (NIV).

Why did Jesus say they have no root? What did Jesus mean by fall away? What is the time of testing? What does believe for a while mean?

Let’s answer these questions in reverse order. First, to believe for a while must mean the person who heard the word of God (also called the message about the kingdom, Mt. 13:19) truly and genuinely had saving faith. We must conclude this since life was produced in this type of person from the word of God through their personal faith, unlike Type A who never believed and consequently never got saved. Referring to Type A, Jesus said:

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved (Lk. 8:12, NIV).

The word of God (seed) never produced life in the form of a plant for Type A because that person never believed. If that person would have believed he would have been saved. But this is not the case for Type B person.

Type B person hears the word and receives it with joy (Mt. 13:20). Also, there can be no legitimate doubt over this type of person believing or not, for Jesus clearly stated that this type of person did believe, unlike Type A. He said that they believe for a while. [10] Please note, the Lord used the same Greek word (pisteuo) in Lk. 8:13 for believe that he used in verse 12 which was lacking for salvation in Type A person!

Furthermore, in regard to Type B person, he lasts only a short time (Mt. 13:21). So, again, there was true, spiritual life in that type of person, but it didn’t continue, according to Jesus. This is Jesus’ interpretation of the parable. Therefore, it is not open for another possible interpretation! So, the man did have personal faith which produced spiritual life for a time period. If such a person would die physically while he was still believing and before he falls away, he would enter the kingdom of God.

What is the time of testing? The answer can be found in Mt. 13:21:

When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away (NIV).

In other words, trouble and persecution for godly living caused Type B person to stop believing, which consequently terminated his spiritual life. This is shown by the plant drying up and dying. It’s not that the person never believed to begin with, but trouble and persecution because of the word adversely affected this type of person to not continue to believe and stay alive. So then, trouble and persecution because of true faith will always come to those who believe. Paul concurs:

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Tim. 3:12, KJV).

Dear reader, if you are a real Christian, persecution will come to you as a test. According to Lk. 8:13, persecution for godly living is your time of testing. Such might come in the mild form of mockery or being excluded by others (Lk. 6:22,23). But when it comes, regardless the form, don’t let it destroy you spiritually like it has destroyed many.

What does it mean to fall away? If we compare Lk. 8:6 to 8:13, we will notice that Jesus said the plants withered when they fell away. In other words, it was when the plants withered (or died) that the people fell away. We can’t die unless we first had life! Therefore, one must first be saved before he can fall away, according to Jesus’ teaching.

Also, the same Greek word translated withered in Lk. 8:6 is used in John. 15:6 which is what happens to branches that are severed from the Vine. Jesus gave us both of these passages and used this word in the same sense in these two places to mean die spiritually, which he termed fall away in Luke. Again, this occurs when a person stops believing. So it is clearly possible to have complete loss of faith, though OSAS denies this:

Further, complete loss of faith is only a theory. Given the stated purposes of God in the life of the believer, we do not think it a genuine possibility. 11

Finally, in Mk. 4:17 and John. 16:1, Jesus used the word skandalizo, which the NIV translates go astray. The latter reference was clearly directed to those already saved:

All this I have told you so that you will not go astray (John. 16:1, NIV).

So what we read of Type B person in the Parable of the Sower at Mk. 4:17 is what Jesus later taught could possibly happen to true Christians, namely his disciples!

This is a clear and powerful refutation by the Lord Jesus himself to what was written by John Calvin, who denied a Christian can fall away:

Moreover, it cannot be doubted, that since Christ prays for all the elect, he asks the same thing for them as he asked for Peter—viz. that their faith fail not (Luke xxii. 32). Hence we infer, that there is no danger of their falling away. . . . 12

What did Jesus mean by they have no root? (The NASB says, “no firm root,” italics theirs.) To understand what the Lord meant by this, we must observe that there was a real plant that sprang up. After a time period, that same plant died. In other words, the plant didn’t endure. This is likened to the type of believer that doesn’t continue with the Lord after his regeneration. This is what the Lord meant by they have no root.

OSAS proponents usually refer to Mt. 13:20 to the total exclusion of Lk. 8:13 and try to force out an interpretation consistent with their doctrine for those on the rock, that is, they say this type of person only had a spurious or temporary faith that was never genuine.

It’s critical to know that a temporary faith to OSAS proponents means one that never produced regeneration. As already proven, spiritual life did exist for a time in such people. Hence, such passed from death to life, then again back to death as shown by the seed producing life which later died at the point of unbelief.

There is no way to know how many people that we have personally observed in our generation who got truly saved, then fell away right before our own eyes, according to Jesus’ teaching. Of course, to protect OSAS, this is flatly denied with a simple, “they were never really saved to begin with.” While it’s true that some never get saved, like Type A in the parable, or those mentioned in Mt. 7:21-23,Type B person does get saved, but doesn’t continue to believe (stay alive spiritually). Therefore, this kind of OSAS answer can’t apply here.

It seems that Paul had godly concern in mind over what had happened to Type B person when he wrote:

We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God’s fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them. In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know. For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless (1 Thess. 3:2-5, NIV).

By the way, to be Type D person (the one with a good heart that produces a crop from the word of God), you will have to:

(1) endure trouble and persecution for godly living; and

(2) not allow life’s worries, riches, pleasures and desires for other things to choke out its fruitfulness (Mk. 4:19; Lk. 8:14).

Lk. 8:15 is most clear in describing Type D person:

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop (NIV).

The word persevering implies adversity. Paul was an example of this type of person. He faced much adversity (2 Cor. 6:4-10; 11:23-27; etc.), but still remained faithful to God.

Demas

Demas was a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14; Philemon 24). Together they worked, enduring various troubles and persecution, to extend the kingdom of God. This speaks highly of Demas at that point in time, for Paul was very selective and careful with whom he labored for the Lord. This is apparent since he rejected John (also called Mark) for his past unfaithfulness (Acts 15:37-41).

However, in Paul’s last letter before his own martyrdom, he informed Timothy of the following change in Demas:

For Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica (2 Tim. 4:10, NIV).

The Wuest expanded translation reads:

Demas let me down, having set a high value upon this present age and thus has come to love it.

This translation clearly states that at the time of Demas’ departure from Paul:

(1) He loved this world which caused him to desert Paul. [The Greek shows what Demas came to love is that of which Satan is god (2 Cor. 4:4)!]

(2) He didn’t love the world like this earlier in his Christian life. In other words, his heart condition was different at the time of Paul’s last letter. Apparently, Demas did not guard his heart (Prov. 4:23). Somehow he got deceived which naturally affected his behavior.

Remembering all this about Demas, let Scripture speak to you more extensively about him:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John. 2:15, NIV).

The seriousness of not loving the Father is evident from Jam. 1:12; 2:5 and John. 5:42. In other words, this reflects that one is not saved when he doesn’t love the Father. Demas degenerated to this state. Eph. 2:1,2 goes on to say:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (NIV).

The word translated ways (aion) is the same word found in 2 Tim. 4:10, which is also what Demas came to love. The word translated world (kosmos) is the same word found in 1 John. 2:15!

Jam. 4:4 supplements all this by adding:

You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NIV).

James was, in part, writing to a group of spiritual adulterers. (Compare this to Jer. 3:20 and Ezek. 6:9.) Notice how James declares that one can become an enemy of God [again].

Other translations similarly say:

Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NRSV).

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (NASB).

One is either saved or unsaved; with Jesus or against him; a child of God or an enemy of God. Now, for one to become an enemy of God must imply he was, just before that spiritual condition, a child of God. There is no other spiritual condition in which to be. Jam. 4:4, therefore, means such go from enemy of God to child of God to enemy of God again! Heb. 10:27 adds to this by saying:

... raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (NIV).

So if one becomes an enemy of God from his former spiritual condition of being saved, then he can’t be saved any more and raging fire is awaiting him, unless he repents.

James cites in condensed form what happened to Demas, that is, a Christian can come to love the world and show himself no longer saved. Also, this is the answer for those who say, based on the Old Testament, that “Christ is married to the backslider,” but fail to say:

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries (Jeremiah 3:8, NIV).

The Prodigal Son

The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS. In Lk. 15:11-32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:

Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found (vv. 23,24, NIV).

From Jesus’ teaching we learn:

(1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.

(2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.

(3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spirituallylost.

(4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.

(5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.

(6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.

(7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.

(8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.

The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.

It also shows he got saved again through repentance after he became lost. Similarly, Rom. 11:23 says:

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again (NIV).

In contrast to these Scriptures, OSAS unscripturally teaches:

Nowhere does Scripture speak of a person being saved twice. [13]

The Prodigal was spiritually alive when he was in the presence of the Father, both before and after his wild living (v. 13). When in wild living, he was spiritually dead and lost in his sins.

Perhaps the words alive again are most revealing. The Greek word anazao from which alive again comes is found five times in the New Testament—in these two verses just cited, Romans 7:9; 14:9 and Rev. 20:5. It means live again, or revive. 14

This is easily seen in Rom. 14:9, “. . . Christ died and returned to life. . . .” Here it is stated that the Lord’s physical condition went from life to death [on the cross] tolife again [when he arose from the grave].

Similarly, the Prodigal’s spiritual condition went from life to death [when with the prostitutes] to life again [when he returned to the Father’s presence].

Many in our hour teach and sincerely believe that the most one could ever lose through sin after initial salvation is their joy of salvation, fellowship with the Father, spiritual rewards, position in the kingdom, etc. Jesus, however, taught otherwise! The Lord taught the Prodigal’s alive spiritual condition degenerated to dead, the same as for everyone before initial salvation (Eph. 2:1).

What happened to the Prodigal is the reverse of what happens at the point of initial salvation (John. 5:24). Jesus taught there that we pass from death to life, but the Lord also taught we can pass from life to death (Lk. 15:24,32)!

Paul likewise informed Christians, after their initial salvation:

If you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live (Rom. 8:13, NIV).

This is what happened to the Prodigal. He died spiritually because he chose, through his own free will, to live according to the sinful nature.

Luke 15:13 states wild living characterized his behavior when spiritually dead and lost in his unconfessed and unrepented sins. The word for wild living (asotos) comes from the Greek word meaning excess, as found in Eph. 5:18:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit (KJV).

So the Prodigal’s behavior, as implied by Lk. 15:13, included drunkenness and other excesses that go with that kind of sinful lifestyle. This would be a safe assumption anyway, especially since he spent his money with prostitutes (Lk. 15:30). Therefore, among other grievous sins, the Prodigal’s sins were sexual immorality and probably drunkenness also—two rampant spiritual killers in our day too! Paul wrote about these and other similar sins in Gal. 5:19-21 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10. This former passage, written to Christians in warning form, reads:

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (NIV).

Notice, unlike what some of the OSAS teachers say, based on a faulty interpretation of Col. 2:13, the Prodigal’s future sins were not automatically forgiven, because if they were, it would have been impossible for them to bring about his dead and lost spiritual condition!

Others say of the Prodigal, “He was still a son when with the prostitutes.” But such seem to forget a spiritual son of God can’t be spiritually dead and lost, as the Prodigal was at that point. If the Prodigal would have died at that point in time, he would have gone to eternal fire!

Somehow, when Hal Lindsey was commenting on the Prodigal, he misquoted Lk. 15:24,32 into something other than what the Lord taught, which also happens to be consistent with OSAS:

And the fact that the father says of his son that he was “dead and is now alive, was lost and is now found” shows that a very radical change had taken place in the relationship of these two.

The change that had taken place is called “reconciliation.” 15

Lindsey omitted the word again from Lk. 15:24 and inserted the word now! In the beginning of his book, he states “Unless otherwise designated, Scripture quotations are from the New American Standard Bible.” When one checks Lk. 15:24 in the NASB, this is what he reads:

For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found. And they began to be merry.

Please note the difference between Lindsey’s quote and what the NASB actually says. By removing the word again and inserting the word now the fact is concealed that the Prodigal was spiritually alive before he became spiritually dead and lost through sin.

Sin can bring forth spiritual death, according to Jesus’ teaching! See also Mk. 9:43-48 where Jesus taught that personal sin can always be the cause of going to eternal and unquenchable fire.

There is no seniority with God. It’s your final spiritual condition that counts! You must endure until the end of your life to enter the kingdom of God. You must continue to believe on Jesus Christ or be lost.

In review, the Prodigal Son (Lk. 15:11-32) demonstratively shows the full extent of sin’s destructive power in the life of a son of God, the key roles that free will and human responsibility play, the limited protective power offered by the believer’s seal, etc. All of these were taught by Christ himself.

Judas Iscariot

Judas Iscariot was, at one time, both an apostle (Mt. 10:2) and a disciple of Christ (Mt. 10:1). Jesus, however, inferred that he ended up in the torments of eternal fire with the words:

. . . But woe to the man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born (Mk. 14:21, NIV).

[Obviously, this can’t be implying Paradise as mentioned in Lk. 23:43 and 2 Cor. 12:4.] Those truths about the Apostle Judas have caused great trouble for the OSAS adherents, for it is a clear refutation of their doctrine by the Lord himself!

Some try to escape the force of these combined verses by saying one can be a disciple of Christ, like Judas, yet never be a real follower of Christ: Judas was a disciple, but never a true believer. [16]

However, the following verses show the opposite about the meaning of disciple:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Lk. 14:26,27, NIV).

. . . Any of you who does notgive up everything he has cannot be my disciple (Lk. 14:33, NIV).

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother (Mt. 12:49,50, KJV).

Judas Iscariot met all these conditions of commitment to Christ, just as much as the rest of the Twelve, since he too was the same kind of disciple as they were.

Others will say Judas was called a devil 17 (John. 6:70), a thief (John. 12:6), and Satan entered into him (John. 13:27), how then could he have been saved? Such people overlook the truth that one’s spiritual condition can change from righteous to evil, as we clearly saw with Saul, Solomon and the Prodigal Son. Yes, Judas was once saved, though he wasn’t clean shortly before the betrayal (John. 13:10,11). This, however, does not mean he was never saved! Remember, Judas was clearly the Lord’s disciple in the beginning as already shown.

Some have also confused the truth stated in John. 6:64 to mean Judas never believed, even from the beginning. However, it doesn’t say this at all. The verse reads:

Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them [plural] did not believe and who [singular] would betray him (NIV).

There are two groups referred to here. This is evident in the Greek. One is plural in tense that didn’t believe from the beginning and the other is singular in tense referring to Judas who would betray him! The Wuest translation renders John. 6:64 as follows:

But there are certain of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who were not believing, and who the one was who was betraying Him.

Another argument offered to say Judas was never saved is, he was called the son of perdition (John. 17:12, KJV). If this is true, then we should say the Apostle Peter was not saved either for Jesus called him, Satan (Mt. 16:23)!

Matthias was the apostolic replacement for Judas, as we read:

To take the place in this ministry and receive the position of an apostle from which Judas fell away and went astray to go (where he belonged), to his own (proper) place (Acts 1:25, Amplified Bible).

Notice, the Apostle Judas went astray from his former condition.

In Matthew 10, we have a number of directives given by the Lord to the entire Twelve, including Judas. Verse 25 implies Jesus was Judas’ head and Judas was a member of Jesus’ household! Verse 29 also declares God to be the spiritual Father of Judas, at that point in time. To receive Judas, before he went astray—when he was still a disciple, was the same as receiving Jesus, verse 40. When Judas would be arrested for preaching God’s word, he wasn’t to worry about what to say or how he was to answer for the Spirit of the Father would speak through him, verse 20. Also, Judas was a servant of God and Jesus was his Master, verse 24.

If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons. Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative?Never! For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.

Also, please note the high spiritual qualifications listed in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9 which a spiritual leader, like Judas, had to meet! In fact, Judas held the highest office in the New Testament church as apostle (1 Cor. 12:28). For Jesus to elevate him to such a high office as apostle would be a violation of Scripture, if he was never saved.

The OSAS teachers almost never use his exalted church office of apostle with Judas. Can you remember the last time you heard an OSAS teacher refer to the Lord’s betrayer as “the Apostle Judas Iscariot who became a traitor” or even “the Apostle Judas”?

Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.

In John. 17:12 we read:

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled (NIV).

Also, John. 17:12 is similar to someone saying the following: “Here are the twelve marbles you gave me. None has been lost except the one green marble.” Would that statement mean that he never had twelve marbles to begin with? Or, could it mean that the green marble (likened unto Judas) was never in his possession, even at the beginning? Of course not! Why do some read Scripture that way? If Judas was never saved, he couldn’t be the exception to the other eleven, who were kept safe and didn’t become lost like he did.

Finally, please notice the obvious conclusion to which we must come by comparing John. 17:2 to John. 17:12. Jesus gave eternal life to all the Father gave him, verse 2. Clearly, Judas is included in this group of recipients, as verse 12 shows. Therefore, Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas.

Logically, for OSAS to be proven false, it would only take one example of a person in Scripture who ever received spiritual life through salvation then later lost it or a Scriptural teaching which would declare the possibility of such occurring. Consequently, the OSAS proponents are left with no alternative but to dogmatically insist that Judas was never really saved to begin with or forfeit their belief in OSAS—something which few of them seem to be willing to do.

Sometimes, blatantly unscriptural things are said about this apostle:

Judas is a prime example of a professing believer who fell into absolute apostasy. For three years he followed the Lord with the other disciples. He appeared to be one of them. Presumably he thought of himself as a believer, at least at the outset. It is doubtful that he joined Christ’s band with the intention of turning against Him. Somewhere along the line he became greedy, but that could hardly have been his motive in the beginning; Jesus and the disciples never had anything of material value (Matthew 8:20). Apparently Judas initially shared the hope of Christ’s kingdom, and he likely believed that Jesus was the Messiah. After all, he also had left everything to follow the Lord. In modern terminology, he had “accepted” Jesus. 18

As you can see, MacArthur states that Judas joined Christ’s band, as though the apostolic band already existed before he came on the scene! In contrast, the Biblical account states the following about the Twelve, including Judas, aquiring the office of apostle:

When morning came, he calledhis disciples to him and chose twelve of them whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor (Lk. 6:13-16).

The first time we hear of Judas Iscariot, we are informed that he already was the Lord’s disciple. Furthermore, he was called and chosen by Christ himself to be an apostle at the same time as the other Twelve. See also John. 6:70. Judas did not join Christ’s band which already existed, for he was already part of that group!

Yet, while the others were growing into apostles, Judas was quietly becoming a vile, calculating tool of Satan. Whatever his character seemed to be at the beginning, his faith was not real (John 13:10-11). He was unregenerate, and his heart gradually hardened so that he became the treacherous man who sold the Savior for a fistful of coins. In the end, he was so prepared to do Satan’s bidding that the devil himself possessed Judas (John 13:27). 19

MacArthur also erroneously has the Twelve, that is, minus Judas Iscariot, growing into apostles instead of instantly being made apostles by Christ himself! Judas too was of this group chosen over the other disciples of the Lord who were present when he chose only Twelve to be his apostles. This fact about instant apostleship is also shown elsewhere in Scripture and confirmed by the origin of Paul’s apostleship (Rom. 1:1). One never grows into an apostle, as MacArthur teaches!

Judas became a traitor (Lk. 6:16, NIV). The word became for Judas suggests a change for the worse that occurred sometime after he was chosen as a disciple by Christ to be his apostle, or special messenger. In other words, Judas went from disciple of Christ to apostle of Christ to traitor. Or we might say he was once a disciple of the Lord’s elevated to apostle, who later became a traitor, as Scripture words it.

Either way, the spiritual condition of the Apostle Judas Iscariot regressed to the place where he betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver, committed suicide (self-murder) and then went to destruction. What an awesome thing to contemplate!

Moreover, Jesus quotes from Psalm 41 and attributes it to Judas in John. 13:18b. That full verse from Psalm 41 is:

Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me (v. 9, NIV).

Judas was once Jesus’ close friend whom he trusted! Since Jesus knew what was in a man (John. 2:25), that is, in his heart, how then could Jesus trust Judas in the early days of their companionship if Judas was never saved? Also, Ps. 41:9 states that Judas was Jesus’ close friend at that same time. Could that be possible if he was never saved?

MacArthur also made the statement, his faith was not real in reference to Judas based on John. 13:10,11 where we read:

He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you. For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean” (NASB).

MacArthur reads into those verses as he wears his OSAS glasses and sees that Judas was not clean in contrast to the other disciples. But does this say that Judas was never clean? It merely says, at that point in time, Judas wasn’t clean then. Remember, he was a disciple in the beginning, chosen to be an apostle, so he must have been clean at the beginning. Hence, MacArthur tries to make John. 13:10,11 say that Judas didn’t have real faith, without a solid Scriptural basis for saying such!

A final point needs to be made—a hypothetical one. Let’s say the OSAS proponent is right that Judas was never saved at any point. That in itself would not prove that OSAS was true. It would only prove Judas couldn’t be cited as evidence against OSAS! It only takes a single Scriptural example of a person ever saved who later became lost again to disprove OSAS, be it Judas, Saul, Solomon, the Prodigal or anyone else. OSAS would likewise be disproven if Scripture would in some way state the possibility of such occurring. So Judas’ example really isn’t needed to disprove OSAS.

Simon

Simon, who once practiced sorcery in a city in Samaria (Acts 8:5-9), was influenced spiritually by Philip, the evangelist, but later needed to repent because his heart wasn’t right. But was he ever saved? Yes, according to verse 13!

And Simon himself also believed, and being baptized was continuing steadfastly with Philip. And seeing miracles and works of power happening, he was amazed (Green’s).

There we learn that Simon himself also believed. The verse does not say seemingly believed. This should settle the question once and for all! He believed like the others in that city who believed and were baptized, verse 12.

Simon received Christian baptism, just as the Ethiopian eunuch was qualified for baptism after he too believed (Acts 8:34-39). Remember, one can believe for a while and quickly fall away through persecution (Lk. 8:13). Though persecution isn’t even implied in Simon’s short walk with the Lord, he still likewise believed, then needed to repent of sin afterwards (v. 23).

The KJV renders Acts 8:18-23 as:

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

For one to be in the bond of iniquity shows that he is a slave to sin thereby showing he is under the control of the sinful nature. This means he is not saved (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21,24; 6:8-10).

Peter also said his heart was not right in God’s sight at that point. He and his money would perish (apoleia) together unless he would repent of his wickedness. All of this together shows his spiritual condition after he believed (v. 13).

Hymenaeus And Philetus

Hymenaeus and Philetus were first-century apostate teachers, who were spreading a spiritually poisonous message.

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17,18, NIV).

Notice, they wandered away from the truth. One can’t wander away from the truth unless he is first in the truth, which is a description of Jesus (John. 14:6)!

Though this is the only time we read of Philetus in the entire New Testament, perhaps we have a shade more information about his partner, Hymenaeus. In 1 Tim. 1:19,20, Hymenaeus (if the same person) is mentioned as a person who shipwrecked his faith. This is cited as a warning to Timothy to hold on to the faith and a good conscience which Hymenaeus (and Alexander) didn’t do. This shows that they were once saved, just as much as Timothy was, when he got this word of caution from Paul. In other words, the same disastrous thing that happened to Hymenaeus and Alexander could potentially happen to Timothy in spite of the seal of the Holy Ghost and God’s keeping power! There is free will and human responsibility (holding to faith and a good conscience) that would guard Timothy from this type of spiritual disaster, according to true grace teaching.

Unnamed Christians Destroyed By False Teaching

Continuing on with 2 Tim. 2:17,18, Hymenaeus and Philetus were destroying the faith of unnamed Christian people that Paul knew of by their teaching about the resurrection! The ones adversely affected by their teaching were clearly Christians, for their faith was destroyed! Certain false doctrines, if believed, can do this to real Christians. Sin, therefore, is not the only way to negate one’s salvation.

Many Unnamed Disciples

Many unnamed disciples of John. 6:66 stopped following Jesus and therefore went to eternal fire. That verse is clear and needs no additional comments:

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him (NIV).

Remember Lk. 14:27,33 and Mt. 12:49,50 when understanding their prior commitment to Jesus.

The OSAS position that a backslider will always come back to the Lord is obviously refuted by John. 6:66. Furthermore, King Saul, Solomon and Judas Iscariot all turned away and clearly never came back to the Lord! With this in mind, how do we answer the OSAS argument from Mt. 18:12-14 that none of Christ’s sheep who wander off will perish in the end? Verse 13 reads:

And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about the one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off (NIV).

This verse qualifies the OSAS position by stating: If he finds it. Therefore, the possibility of not being brought back exists and is conditional upon us being found! Finally, if we interpret Scripture with Scripture, this is the only conclusion to which we can logically come, especially with John. 6:66 in mind.

Some Younger Christian Widows

Some younger Christian widows turned from Jesus and started to follow Satan!

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:14,15, NIV).

We cannot turn away to follow Satan unless we were first following someone else! Since there is only one other possibility, they must have been following Jesus before they turned to start to follow Satan. Verse 11 verifies this:

. . . when their sensual desires overcame their dedication to Christ . . . (NIV).

Clearly, it is stated that they did have a real dedication to Christ at first, which came to an end. Then they started to follow Satan. True Christians must not allow their sinful nature to take control, which occurred with those women. Rom. 8:5,6 is especially enlightening as to how this can occur:

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace (NIV).

There are only two types of people in the world. Paul describes both of them here and declared why they live the way they do. Notice the importance of our thought life as to how we live. Please compare this to Col. 3:1,2.

In contrast to Paul and his understanding of grace, many OSAS proponents if present then, would have been forced to comment that those widows were never really saved to begin! This reflects how different the times are from then to now.

Some Christians Eager For Money

Some Christians eager for money have wandered from the Christian faith. Paul wrote:

But if we have food and clothing, we will be

cont.....

content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs (1 Tim. 6:8-10, NIV).

Please notice the word destruction. The same Greek word (apoleia) as found here in verse 9 is also used in Mt. 7:13 and rendered destruction, which clearly refers to eternal fire:

. . . For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it (NIV).

Christian people who want material wealth can go from temptation for such to harmful desires to their own spiritual destruction, according to Paul. Wow! What a blow this is to much of the teaching of our day.

This section of Holy Writ is especially relevant in the United States today, with its rampant sin of greed, that is, an ever-increasing desire for more. God only knows how many Christians have wandered from the faith in our own generation, back into darkness and a mind dominated by earthly things and sinful desires.

The deceitfulness of wealth is likened unto thorns in the soil of our heart, which can have a deadly influence on our fruitfulness (Mk. 4:18,19).

We should all ponder for a long time what Jesus said about the rich:

Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God (Lk. 18:25, NIV).

Beware of any religious teachers emphasizing material possessions and riches, even if they are extremely popular.

Heb. 13:5 commands:

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have . . . (NIV).

A good prayer for us all to pray regarding temporal possessions is found in Prov. 30:8,9:

. . . give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread. Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you and say, “Who is the Lord?” Or I may become poor and steal, and so dishonor the name of my God (NIV).

Reader, do you have the heart to sincerely pray this prayer? If not, why not?

Fruitless Christians

Fruitless Christians are in the greatest danger that exists in the universe. Unless they repent and bear fruit, they will be severed from Christ and will be thrown into the fire and burned, according to Jesus! What a shock it must be to some to hear statements like this, but Jesus taught this truth more than once!

In John. 15:2, Jesus taught about the Father:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he trims clean so that it will be even more fruitful (NIV).

Notice how the Father wants fruit. But what happens to people who do not remain in Christ, namely the branches that get cut off because they bear no fruit? Verse 6 gives the answer:

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned (NIV).

Remember, Jesus taught in John. 15:1-10 that there are two types of Christians—those who do remain in him and bring forth fruit and those who do not remain (the fruitless) and end up in the fire! Though the moderate form of OSAS teaches that a real Christian has to remain, the Lord taught otherwise!

The KJV uses the word abide in this passage instead of remain. The reader should be aware that the Greek meaning of abide is remain:

abide, continue, dwell in, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for) X thine own. 20

Similarly, in Mt. 25:14-30 we read the Parable of the Talents. The servant of the Master who was entrusted with one talent never lost that one talent, but gained absolutely nothing. His Master returned from his journey and called him to account. The Master of that servant then said:

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (v. 30, NIV).

Similarly, in Lk. 13:6-9, Jesus taught about a fruit tree that wasn’t bearing fruit. The owner of the vineyard went to it for three years without finding any fruit. It would be given just one more year to bear fruit—with special attention of digging around it and fertilizing—then it would be cut down (or killed), if it remained fruitless! Fruitlessness leads to termination of life.

(All of this information on the fruitless Christian could also apply to Type C person in the Parable of the Sower.)

The Servant Who Backslides In Luke 12

The servant who backslides to the point where he begins to beat others and get drunk is another time OSAS is confuted with Scripture. Read Lk. 12:45,46. Notice, he began to do evil acts as he pondered the long-time delay in his Master’s return. Was that servant unconditionally eternally secure? Not according to Jesus! Verse 46 reads:

The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers (NKJV).

His portion with the unbelievers is clearly shown to be the fiery lake of burning sulfur, according to Rev. 21:8. Also, no unrepentant drunkard, like that servant, will inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Cor. 6:9,10; Gal. 5:19-21. This is true even if he was once a faithful servant. It is, therefore, impossible to be a drunkard and a Christian at the same time, in contrast to what some would like to believe!

The Unrepentant Lukewarm

The unrepentant lukewarm, so rampant in our day, are issued a very straightforward warning by the Lord himself. When Jesus addressed this issue in Rev. 3:14-22, those lukewarm Christians were still saved at that moment. However, such people will be rebuked and disciplined by God unless they repent. If after this, they still refuse to change then Jesus will spit them out of his mouth! In other words, they will no longer be in the body of Christ.

One must overcome lukewarmness because of life’s struggles, disappointments and problems, that even befall the godly, to have the right to sit with Jesus on his throne, verse 21. Jesus himself declared this. [For additional information on lukewarmness, see the chapter devoted to this subject.]

The Unforgiving In Heart

The unforgiving in heart will nullify their own forgiveness, according to the ultimate authority—the Lord Jesus (Mt. 18:21-35)! Furthermore, the Father forgiving us of our sins is conditional upon us forgiving others who have sinned against us. Jesus taught:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins (Mt. 6:14,15, NIV).

This can only be referring to the saved, for the unsaved have the devil as their spiritual father (John. 8:44), and he can’t forgive our sins!

Also, Jesus elaborated on this important subject of forgiving others at another time when Peter asked him about the number of times he should forgive his brother who sins against him (Mt. 18:21-35). [See our chapter addressing this teaching entitled, The Importance of Forgiving.]

Scripture elsewhere reiterates the dangers of hatred and bitterness. Gal. 5:15 and Heb. 12:15, respectively, read:

If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other (NIV).

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many (NIV).

Unforgiveness, hatred and bitterness seem to be implied here, as are other works of the sinful nature.

The Weak Christian Of 1 Corinthians 8

1 Cor. 8:10,11 read:

For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge (NIV).

Being consistent with OSAS, Harold Barker cites his interpretation of verse 11:

1 Corinthians 8:12-13 explains what is meant by 1 Corinthians 8:11. The “weak conscience” of the brother is “wounded” and he is made to “offend.” It does not say that he is lost. 21

The same Greek word apollumi rendered destroyed here is translated perish in John. 3:16 (NIV) and lost in Lk. 15:24 (NIV). The Greek allows for verse 11 to be used as a refutation to OSAS.

By the way, the Christian was weak because he didn’t have knowledge that he could eat certain types of food.

The Recent Convert Who Is Potentially A Spiritual Leader

1 Timothy 3 cites numerous conditions for a possible overseer. In verse 6, we read:

He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil (NIV).

Without a doubt, Paul can only be referring to real Christians here, for only such can qualify to be an overseer.

It is also apparent that the sin of pride in the heart of a Christian can lead to his spiritual death. Compare to Mk. 7:22,23. Moreover, there can be no question that Paul knew this possibility exists for real Christians and taught others to take it seriously!

Furthermore, it is clear from the Scriptures that the judgment or condemnation {22} of the devil is eternal fire. Mt. 25:41 reads:

Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (NIV).

Also, Rev. 20:10 states that the devil will finally end up in the lake of fire and be tormented forever there! Again we see, Paul was not an OSAS proponent to write of this possibility for a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).

OSAS Has Been Scripturally Refuted

These eighteen examples just listed not only show the intensity of our spiritual warfare but also refute OSAS, for Scripture teaches a truly saved person can afterwards become spiritually dead just like he was before initial salvation.

The OSAS proponent who reads this book in an effort to refute it will have to explain away all of the previously cited eighteen examples of specific people and types of people who either totally and finally fell away from the faith never to return or lost their salvation temporarily for some reason. If just one of the previous eighteen cases cannot be explained away, then OSAS has been successfully refuted with Scripture, because if salvation didn’t continue for that one, then the believer’s security has to be conditional!

Finally, every individual Scripture cited as a proof text for OSAS has also been neutralized by these eighteen examples. For example, if the seal of the Holy Spirit didn’t keep these believers saved, why would we think it would unconditionally keep us saved? If somehow these sons of God lost their relationship with the Father, then it could happen to us also. If somehow God’s discipline to the disobedient child didn’t cause him to repent before spiritual death, then it might not work for us either! In fact, without exception, every single argument presented to teach or defend OSAS has been reduced to meaningless chatter and the traditions of men by these examples.

In spite of all the clear Scriptures cited in this chapter, which prove a conditional security, there will always be some who will agree with Chafer like Ankerberg and Weldon:

We agree with theologians like Lewis Sperry Chafer, who, after examining all the so-called problem passages, conclude “that there is no Scripture, when rightly divided and related to the whole testimony of God, that teaches that a Christian may be lost. Nor is there any such example in the Bible. Of all the incidents and parables, none can be made to teach the loss of salvation.” [23]

1 John 2:19 Explained

One must also interpret 1 John. 2:19 with these eighteen Scriptural examples in mind:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us (NKJV).

John can’t be saying here that a saved person could never turn away from God, for there are numerous clear passages which teach otherwise, such as the ones you just read. (This is what this verse is not saying; shortly we’ll look at the immediate context to see what it is saying.)

The OSAS proponent, who emphasizes 1 John. 2:19, is in error if he believes that one can’t really be sure another is anything more than just a professing Christian, since only God can see the heart. This OSAS conclusion is part true and part false. (In the natural, we can’t see the roots of a fruit tree, but we can examine the fruit to determine how healthy the unseen roots are!) Scripturally, while it is true that only God can see the heart, Barnabas saw clear, observable evidence that the grace of God brought salvation to some at Antioch (Acts 11:23)! Some of the evidences found in Scripture for such are: The world hating you (John. 15:19), and thinking your separation from their behavior is strange to the point where they heap abuse on you (1 Pet. 4:4), etc.

True conversion to Christ means being ashamed of your past life of sin (Rom. 6:21) and proving your repentance by your deeds (Acts 26:20). Certainly, these and other factors, like risking his life for the name of Jesus (Acts 15:26), caused the early church to rightly conclude Paul was definitely saved, even though he once hated Christians and tried to destroy the church through persecution. [See Sin, Repentance and Salvation]

In addition, Paul knew Timothy and Titus were definitely saved (2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5). He also believed “loyal yoke fellow” could identify those whose names are in the book of life (Phil. 4:3)! Perhaps the clearest proof of salvation is John. 8:36:

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed (NIV).

The context bears out that Jesus is speaking of freedom from slavery to sin (v. 34). This is exactly what happened at Corinth. Before their salvation, some in this Greek city were sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers. This is clearly shown in 1 Cor. 6:11:

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (NKJV).

Because of the grace of God touching their lives, there was an obvious, observable, clean break from this type of behavior! This also explains what it does not mean to be a carnal Christian (1 Cor. 3:3, KJV). Clearly, from 1 Cor. 6:11, carnal Christianity doesn’t allow for the types of sins cited in the two preceding verses that will exclude anyone from the kingdom of God.

To learn further what 1 John. 2:19 is saying, we must closely examine:

(1) The immediate context (1 John. 2:18-29); and

(2) Interpret this Scripture in light of other relevant Scripture, which has just been done.

The immediate context shows that false teachers (Gnostics), whom John calls antichrist (v. 18) were teaching the group of Christians to whom John was writing that Jesus is not the Christ (v. 22). John wrote that such teachers were trying to deceive them (v. 26) into believing their lie about the Lord’s identity. John expresses his godly concern regarding the truth of Jesus Christ’s identity remaining in these Christians, so that they in turn will continue to remain in Christ and in the Father and receive the promised eternal life:

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life (1 John. 2:24,25, NIV).

The apostles [and prophets] are the foundation on which the church is built (Eph. 2:20). Furthermore, the early church devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching (Acts 2:42). The false teachers that John labeled antichrist apparently knew these things and were claiming to be apostles of Christ too, for the sake of more influence on the people. [Paul also battled with false apostles, 2 Cor. 11:13.] This is how the pronouns they and them in 1 John. 2:19 should be understood. In other words, we should interpret 1 John. 2:19 as follows:

They [antichrists or false apostles] went out from us [true apostles—teaching others as they went], but they did not really belong to us [true apostles]. For if they [false apostles] had belonged to us [true apostles], they [false apostles] would have remained with us [that is, remained teaching the simple truth which they denied about Jesus being the Christ and not departing us to begin their own separate group, but remaining]; but their going [to teach their lies] showed that none of them [false apostles] belonged to us [true apostles, in spite of their claim].

Also, please note the immediate context shows that the ones who went out from us in verse 19 were false teachers, and not just ordinary laymen, as we would call them in our day!

In conclusion, we know the following:

(1) If the OSAS interpretation of 1 John. 2:19 was correct, then we could never know if someone was really saved or just a professing Christian who might not be saved. This point has already been dealt with and refuted with Scripture.

(2) If the OSAS interpretation of this key verse is correct, then how could there be at least eighteen Biblical examples of people and types of people who did indeed experience genuine salvation, then afterwards turned away from Christ to the point where they again experienced spiritual death, as already shown? This too would be an impossibility!

Therefore, by allowing the immediate context of 1 John. 2:19 and these other Scriptures to interpret this passage in question, we must reject the OSAS interpretation of it. 1 John. 2:19 refers to false teachers leaving and not remaining.

\t\t\t\t[url=http://www.inplainsite.org/html/examples_conditional_security.html]source and footnotes[/url]

bible1985 wrote:
explain where CHRISTINYOU analogy falls short. Please explain why we can answer all of the verses that you put on here with losing salvation, but you guys don't admit to taking them out of context. Not meaning to seem rude, but many of those verses you take out of context.

Well, for one as I said, it's an analogy. I could use an analogy too that would back up my beliefs, but it wouldn't mean much. Second, comparing the physical birth to the spiritual rebirth is like comparing apples to oranges.

You're right about not admitting to taking verses out of context. We don't believe we are (not saying this in arrogance). We wouldn't be saying what we are if we believe that. :-) Personally, I would say that that's what you're doing, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, what does the Bible say? Not what your personal experiance is or what your article is saying.

Frankly, my questions haven't been answered. In fact, I feel my position has only been strengthened (again, not saying this in arrogance). The articles to me, seem only to explain away Scritpure after Scripture.

I also think the assumption that when a christian who says died doing a gross sin or dies sometime after doing this gross sin, is going to lose their salvation because of this even if he had never fell like this is ridiculous. WE then our entering by our works we please God and our saved by them. No matter what way you put it, if it depends on what sin we have committed as what makes us right with God, we our believing a works salvation. Then you might bring the assumption that we can choose to leave the faith, but i will tell you that when God makes this old creation a new creation, it doesn't want to go back for good ever, God's spirit is in them and their hearts have been forever changed. Like i said the Lord works through a christian with conviction, chastizement, and lets satan have it at you until you repent, i had this happen to me this past year when i was living with my wife in sin, i knew it was wrong and i wanted to get married but i was more worried about what evryone else was going to think in our fammily and i was so convicted then one day i just i began having demonic attacks by satan. I felt complete terror upon me all day and night. It felt like depression plus panic attacks times 2. It went on all for about a month and a half until i finally got married and these spirits stopped attacking me. But i also severly hurt my back during this time from these attacks and also had to stay out of work. I repented after it became too much for me.

Homefree89 Wrote:

Quote:

"""Well, for one as I said, it's an analogy. I could use an analogy too that would back up my beliefs, but it wouldn't mean much. Second, comparing the physical birth to the spiritual rebirth is like comparing apples to oranges.

You're right about not admitting to taking verses out of context. We don't believe we are (not saying this in arrogance). We wouldn't be saying what we are if we believe that. Personally, I would say that that's what you're doing, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, what does the Bible say? Not what your personal experiance is or what your article is saying."""

Frankly, my questions haven't been answered. In fact, I feel my position has only been strengthened (again, not saying this in arrogance). The articles to me, seem only to explain away Scritpure after Scripture"""

If natural birth is not compared to spiritual birth, then why did Peter compare corruptible seed with Incorruptable Seed.

Our parents did not sit down with us and ask our permission to be born. God is not going to sit down with me and ask my permission to have His Incorruptable Seed birthed in me either. How long has He been asking all mankind this very question? None would seek His Face and ask to be born or reborn. If God knew, speaking for myself only, before the foundation of the world that I was to be in Christ, how could He ask my permission, depending on my answer? If I wanted to be saved or not? Impossible, Yes?

"You must be born again", correct? Who is the One that is giving this rebirth? It certainly does not have anything to do with me, and I didn't have to give my permission or even ask for it. It was God's choice before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

I was birthed by my mother and father by corruptable seed, (my permission not ask for or granted) and I am rebirthed by my Heavenly Father's Seed (permission not ask for or granted) and now I am a son of God by His choice. Now I will be obedient by the things I suffer, from a loving Heavenly Father.
Even Jesus Christ also; Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;

I may suffer by my disobedience, but I will never loose my birthright from my Father, who chose me to be His Elect, before the foundation of the world, not by my goodness or not ungoodness but by His Grace am I saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye (I) walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (to reanimate conjointly with) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

None of this is my doing, not by my permission, none of it would I even be able to agree with, I can only believe what He has done in me, that is where the Witness is of my salvation, the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ the Word Himself that is now my new birth and life in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:13-25 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, (Logos of God; John 1) which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

I in the flesh without being quickened by God, was withered away flowers and grass. But, In Christ I am the Hope of Glory and cannot fade away.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

It is His working in me, How can He loose Himself?

Once Saved, Always Saved, completely in Christ Jesus. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

[url=http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts850605.html]Spirit of Slumber by David Wilkerson[/url]

I'm not sure if sermonindex has the audio here but this David Wilkerson message above makes a good case for the possibility of losing your salvation.

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Maybe salvation can't be lost-but Holy Scripture is perfectly clear:

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, [b]we[/b] shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If we deny him, he also will deny us before the Father-whether you call that "loosing salvation" or "leaving salvation" the outcome is pretty clear that at that state Christ will deny that person before the Father. Also if any man draws back from faith, God's soul shall have NO pleasure in that man, which to me, is also quite clear that this individual would not receive his before expected end of salvation, but rather perdition as verse 39 speaks of.

Amen

I just praise God our Father, that He Loves us without measure, not sparing His own Son, but freely giving Him [Jesus} for for our benefit.
If He did not spare His Son, He will not spare any of His resources to seek and find one of His that has stumbled in sin. His kindness leads us to repentance, thank God for his kindness.
In the old covenant the scriptures declare, " ALL DAY LONG I'VE HELD OUT MY HAND TO A STUBORN AND OBSENANT NATION".

The Father in His great Love for us, by His Holy Spirit is continually wooing us to a deeper life with Himself, and repentance from our understanding of the word to His.
We are all walking in unbelieve to some degree, which is sin, and God still loves us, and draws us into deeper Faith and Love in Himself.

I thinks it easier to bring an adulterer to repentance, than someone who is self righteous according to the Law.

Love in CHRIST tom

This sermon by paul washer is unbelievable on the whole losing your salvation topic, everyone should listen to this

http://downloads2.sermonindex.us/12/SID12975.mp3

examine yourselves by paul washer

There are countless warnings in Scripture about falling away or walking away from God. This is a reality and a call for each of us to treat ourselves with sober judgement so that we do not fall. If any of us are to keep on continually walking with God we need to remain close to Him, always seeking to put Him first and give Him the reign in our lives.

Praise to God that he has never (as history has shown us) utterly abandoned his people. "Even if we are faithless, He is faithful..." and pursues us - the hound of heaven - with theincomprehensible depth of grace and mercy that is the only base of our salvation.

If we find ourselves asking 'am I losing salvation?' and this question has arisen not through the work of the accuser or some godless person, the answer may well be found on our knees. God will keep us if we seek Him daily, and we need fear nothing, not even a fall, if we are continually walking with him. Are we still capable of falling, of weakness, of giving in to evil? Yes, and such is the greatness of God's grace that we can stay safe from the tempters snare. But we can do all things, including remaining victorious in Christ who lets us share in his victory over sin.

I pray that each of us who know God remain in Him and one day receive the crown that we will receive on the Day, a crown we can cast before the holy throne of God in adoration and praise.

How can anyone say that The Will of Jesus Christ is to keep those the Father has given Him, and they can be lost? None will be lost that are given to Jesus, For He keeps them in the Name of the Father. The only ones lost are governed by the Father, ie: Judas, to fulfill God's Word.

This prayer of Christ confirms, if we are given to Christ by the Father, we will not be lost. Man in his own self, does not want to admit that God is the Chooser of life in the believer and if man can loose his salvation then it is his self will that gains it. You cannot receive what is not yours to get. You cannot loose what is given by God, self cannot out will God. Even Jesus said, "I have lost none that God gave Him. That is what this prayer is all about, not just for the Apostles given Jesus Christ, but all that the Father will give Him through the Apostles Word, which is given by God and they received it. How can man out-will God's will.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

"I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:1-26 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Impossible to go against the Will of God. Christ was already prepared before the foundation of the world to give Adams free will, salvation by Christ being put in the Believer. How do we believe? By the will of God. How are we saved? By the will of God. How are we kept saved? By the will of Jesus Christ. My will is not stronger that either of Them, which is One God including the Holy Spirit. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip

Impossible to go against the Will of God.

So, it was God's will for Adam and Eve to sin?

Brother Paul Washers sermon is all about their being a true believer who truly lives for God and the holy spirit is always evident in their lives until the day they die. Then the other one who is the professing christian who really does not know the Lord and ends up falling away or who never has changed and has been of the world the whole time and professing to know the Christ. Brother Paul even brings up that if someone professed for years and even looked like a christian but then fell away that they really never knew the Lord from the beginning and did a great working of the flesh to full himself and many. At least someone like brother paul who i would say seems to most definitely knows the Lord believes true believers can't lose your salvation, he has sen the power of the holy spirit for many years and he knows that the Lord continues to work in him. He brings up the heresy of losing communion too in this sermon. Brother paul is so powerful in his preaching and he seems to be closer to the Lord than almost anyone i have ever seen. I had a friend named robert too who is the same way, he doesn't care about anything but God and nothing to do with the things of the world. He continues to growin the Lord. I never have known anyone who only cared about the things of God like robert. Maybe their our many who really our not saved in this world.

Was it God's will that Judas turn Jesus over to the authorities? What about Pharaoh? Was Esau's life God's will.

Quote:

"""So, it was God's will for Adam and Eve to sin?"""

If it was not God's will how could they have sinned?

Especially if Jesus Christ was before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-9 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself:

The mystery of God, according to His good pleasure, His purpose is in Himself. No man can go against what He proposes in Himself. Try it.

Romans 9:21-24 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

If He is the Potter and we are the clay, each of us is exactly what the Potter made us to be.

Romans 9:14-21 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Man does not want to admit that God is in complete control. That leaves his own self completely lacking, which is exactly what Satan rebelled against. Now God even uses Satan to accomplish His will. Satan can do nothing unless God permits or tells him to. Just who do you think we are dealing with? Not a namby pamby God who allows man and fallen angles to dictate who they are and try to take over and deny who He is.

Our God is the the God of all that is and it is still expanding at the rate of 186,000 miles per second, the speed of light, trillions of light years and still God is creating as He pleases. Man is such a speck, and yet God has chosen to have them as son's in His House, by the Only Begotten Son that He has birthed in us. You tell Him He is not in control, not me. Even as Jesus did we will learn obedience by the things we suffer. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip, by His choice, not mine.

If it was not God's will how could they have sinned?

I believe they could have by using their free will. Do you still sin, then you're doing something God doesn't want you to. If He doesn't want us to sin, then is it really His will if we do?

If we do not sin, how do we know that it is God's will for us not to sin. Is God just in forgiving sin? It takes the negative to allow the positive to flow. If you only have negative there is no power. The same goes for positive, no current without the negative. The same with me. God temps no man to sin, but he is carried away by his own lust, negative, the positive allowing the negative to give power to sin and the amperage is controlled by God, death. Turn the positive up and you get life out of the negative, depending on positive or negative ground. Christ or Satan.

We can cry out all we want to about mans free will, but what free will would we have if God did not give it? None. The same with Love, Jesus shows the pure love of God, then love without God is selfishness and that is negative power that allow the positive to flow and we learn from the negative how the true positive love from God and Jesus Christ flows. Who is in charge of the negative and positive, and the amount of current that gives life to death or eternal life in Love Himself, Jesus Christ:

We can go on about this forever as it has from the beginning of creation, but if you take God out of the presentation, there is nothing. God is both negative and positive, it is His choice of what to do with it of His own good pleasure.

If God is not in control even of sin, there would be no sin. The same for Love and all that we are and all that creation is. That is why Christ is all and in all, including those the Father has given Him.

This sound like far eastern religious completion, the only difference is they have put man's thinking into it, reincarnation and worship of cows and don't kill a cockroach it may be your grandmother. You will pay for your sins in this life and next time around you have a chance to do better until you become perfect.

But, God is all and in all, even every atom and even those that are His and those that are not His. His power, negative or positive, His amount of current applied to life or death.

This is applied logic which is not God's Word, but God is still in control. The Holy Spirit Teacher is the only One that can give truth of this delima that man has of trying to be in control of his own destiny.

In Christ, my destiny: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

This topic is an endless discussion. I would like to add some points here.

The OSAS statement is not found in the bible period. I think many of us fail to understand salvation completely. For instance salvation is of the Lord and did not come from us. We treat salvation like a thing that we can not loose. Salvation is not a thing you can have apart from Christ. Jesus Christ is our salvation.

How many true Christians would honestly believe that God wants some people to go to hell and some to go to heaven? Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem if he didn’t want to save them? Why did he say that God so loved the world if he didn’t want to save them? Why does he give us so many warnings and tells us not to be deceived?

Jesus said not everyone that says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. The battle is within the will of man. This it what Jesus knew when he said that if any man come after him he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow him. He that seeks to save his life will lose it. The truth of the matter is that one can not have security is any form of doctrine of man because our security is only in Christ. We must place our all in Him. He said that He would never loose us if we surrendered all to Him.

We are to believe unto the saving of the soul. God will never take complete control over man’s will so therefore mankind must heed the warnings of the Word of God. We must have an obedient faith through the power of the aid of God’s Spirit. We must stay humble and strive to do His will with the joyful relationship He has blessed us with. We must not deceive ourselves into thinking because we got saved once with a real experience with God that we can now have security in our salvation as a thing. Our salvation is in a justified relationship with the Lord. We are to confess our sins as we walk in the light and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin. We must not think that we can continue in sin and that God has already forgiven us anyway. God hates sin and He sent his Son to save us from sin. We must not think because we are saved we want sin any more or our sins are different that the worlds sins. We must never think that God will send the nonbelievers to hell for their sins but not us believers. God created hell for the devil and his angels. He does not want to send any man to hell. Sin is what separates us from God. The savior’s blood makes atonement for the believer who abides in Christ until the saving of the soul.

In closing I will repeat something I said earlier God does not really want to send anybody to hell. The battle is not with God being able to save the whole world. The battle is within the will of man. He must trust and obey Christ until the end of his journey and then He will be changed into his likeness glorified forever.

rbanks you made some very good points but i truly believed the ones who our saved hate sin and will repent everytime they do, if not the Lord will chastize to bring them to repentance. What does being sealed unto the day of redemption do not grieve the spirit mean to you. Born again believers will fall but get back up. You see our will might be going against Gods will but when your saved the holy spirit will overcome your will because it all powerful.

bible1985 wrote:
You see our will might be going against Gods will but when your saved the holy spirit will overcome your will because it all powerful.

The statement you have made is not biblical.

Let's look at the scriptures.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Notice everyone of these scriptures show the involvement we must will to do. We must will to do God's will.

There is not any scriptures in the context of the whole bible under the new covenant that says that God takes control over our will to make us do His will.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12 If WE suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also WILL deny us

Clear and cut.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12 If WE suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also WILL deny us

BlazedbyGod the true believer would not do that, you assume that a true believer after being born again would deny christ. No only the ones who have not the spirit of God will deny him.

rbanks here is one from ezekiel that someone posted and i will find the rest, their our many that say he will keep us in obedience in jeremiah, ezekiel, isaiah.

I will cause them to walk in my commandments.”
(Ezekiel 11:20.

bible1985, Let me help you, here are the scriptures which I have thanked God for a many of times.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I preached a message many years ago about how God gave me a new heart and caused me to walk in his commandments. This is so true but he does not do this against our will. We have been given the ability by the Spirit to walk and to please God. We are to be dead to sin and walk in the Spirit and we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We still have a responsibility to God to be obedient. We are to continue with the ability of God working in us to do his will. We never become robotic. We will never loose our will entirely. Sin is never dead but we must reckon ourselves dead to it. We are still tempted to go back into sin. We still must resist the devil.

This can be an endless journey for some on this thread because they are so anxious to give their favorite hyper Calvinist views and accuse people with any common reasoning whatsoever with being Armenian. I love all those scriptures and appreciate everyone that the Calvinists quote. The Word of God is my delight. I believe in taking the whole counsel of the Word of God. I know I can’t keep myself saved only God can do that. But He also tells me to keep myself in the Love of God by praying in the Holy Spirit building up my most holy faith. We can argue over the scriptures until kingdom come and it will not change the Word of God. God is the one who saves and my responsibility is to trust Him. I could not Love Him unless He had not loved me first. He tells me to obey Him and to fear Him and to Love Him. I can only do that with the ability that he gives me. He gets all the credit.

I owe Him everything. He does not choose some to go to heaven and some to go to hell against their will. You can believe that if you want but you also need to hope that you are the lucky one that God chose to go to heaven. I don’t believe that for one minute because I don’t believe God created any human just to send him to hell. If God did decree for a person to go to heaven against his will because Christ was crucified for him, then He decreed everybody to go to heaven against their will because God so loved the world that He gave his Son for them. Then everybody will be saved. That is not the case because according to the bible multitudes will be in hell. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The only one who can make us righteous is the one who becomes our righteousness the Lord Jesus Christ by our faith and obedience in Him. We must not trust in ourselves or in our experience because we will lose our soul if we do. We give Him all the glory for saving us because we all deserved hell. He alone made it possible for us to be saved.

I have chosen to look over the ones who are so wordy with what others have said over and over again. It seems to me that some can't even think for themselves for they have to let others do all the thinking for them.

Quote:

"""There is not any scriptures in the context of the whole bible under the new covenant that says that God takes control over our will to make us do His will."""

What do we do if it is no longer we who live? Then who's will are we under? I am dead, it is Christ alive in me that brings me to the Father.

This must have been the will of God or we would not have God Himself in us as our new life.

Maybe we just don't believe the mystery that Paul taught.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If we believe that salvation comes by anything we do we are under circumcision. If we do the things that by our nature are in the Law, we are a law unto ourselves and under Grace. Christ now being our nature by our new birth, we will do the things that fulfilled the Law in Christ Jesus. We have Christ in us, we have the Holy Spirit in us We have The Father in us. What is our nature?

It took the death of Christ on the Cross to bring about this marvelous exchange of natures. If a man still sin, it is not from his new nature but his old nature still controlling the old man in the flesh. Those that are born from above cannot sin. The man can, but not the Christ that is in Him. So who's will is it to sin? Mans' Who will is it to be perfect in Christ Jesus? Gods'

"If any man commit a sin, we have an advocate with the Father" That is why "if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This scripture in the context of the whole bible under the new covenant says that God takes control over our will to make us do His will, along with many others. Lest why would The whole God Head be in the Believer.

Praise God He has taken over my will and chosen me to be a son of God by the Son of God in me.

This is the whole fulfillment of Gods plan from before the foundation of the world, that He might have son's in His house, that are not strangers.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the only works we should admit to the striving and labour according to His working, which worketh in us mightily.

Working in those that don't even know it or believe it, He will continue to work in all those that are His, even to those that believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, both hear and in the kindergarten of the Kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi wisevirgin...

Liars tell the lies of their father. One particular lie his children tell is that those who have been born of God, made to be sons by adoption, a new creation in Christ can/may lose so great salvation.

The slanderer (devil; meaning slanderer) has instructed these little slanderers of his to change the words "lose your salvation" to "walk away from", or "leave or depart from." As "lose your salvation" was losing its power to deceive.

They tempt us to doubt the goodness,faithfulness,and graciousness of our Father who sent His Son to die for us.

The garden lie has taken on a different sleight. Yet it remains that he (the devil) and his children are one and the same, perpetrating lies to slander the Name of the One True God.

So you are calling anyone who does not believe in "once saved/always saved" a LIAR?

Brother, that is VERY silly and uncalled for! You don't have to agree with those who embrace the notion (as we see it in Scripture) that people who depart the faith or return to a life of willful sin might not be headed to Heaven -- but please don't call us liars.

This is very silly.

:-?

II John 1:8-11

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

bible1985 wrote:
Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12 If WE suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also WILL deny us

BlazedbyGod the true believer would not do that, you assume that a true believer after being born again would deny christ. No only the ones who have not the spirit of God will deny him.

bible1985 that is not true what you said, your theology is not accurate pertaining to this point. In 2 Tim 2:12 the apostle Paul is speaking, and he includes himself " if WE suffer with him..." that refers to ONLY the Church (true believers) because a false believer cannot suffer with him-however, but then Paul does on to say " If WE deny him, he will also deny US" Paul includes himself in this statement and he without a dobut was a true believer.

A false believer cannot deny him, because a false believer does not KNOW him, neither is he with him.

The "we" in 2 Tim 2:12 is the TRUE Church-that is undisputable

If "WE" deny him, he also WILL DENY US"

I'm sorry, but your theory of what a true believer wouldn't do is not accurate. If that was the case then a true believer would NEVER sin or miss the mark, but we know that is not true either....and if I do recall, Peter, denied the Lord 3 times (he was a true believer) and he was restored by the Lord.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

The bible is filled with admonitions for us to fulfill. What I have stated in my posts is that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only. We still have to make decisions to trust in the Lord with all of our heart and to lean not to our own understanding.

Christinyou has written a long post that I am in basic agreement with. I love those scriptures you stated. The apostle Paul got the revelation of him being crucified with Christ and reckoned himself crucified. We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and dead to ourselves because we believe that Jesus Christ for us and we being in Him we were crucified with Him. The Holy Spirit makes the experience real in us.

We are to humble ourselves and subject ourselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We are to take his yoke upon us and learn of Him. We are not to trust in ourselves. He who thinks he stands must take heed lest he fall. We are to continue in prayer and in the study of the Word. We are not to neglect our great salvation or how will we escape the pull of the flesh that is against God.

Let’s think about this for a minute. Let’s say that a teacher gives two boys an opportunity to go on a trip to the mountains. The trip is already paid for and the only requirement is to place 5 correct words in the blanks on the page. The words must be correct according to the teacher and blanks must be filled in. The teacher comes over to one of the boys and writes the 5 words for him in the correct blanks. The other boy did not know the correct words to put in the blanks. The teacher takes the boy with the correct words that he put in the blanks for him on the trip and the other boy can not go because he didn’t do what the teacher required. How would you feel if the boy who didn’t go was your boy and how would you feel about that teacher?

Ladies and gentlemen some of you are treating God like this concerning the eternal souls of men. The bible says that God is no respecter of persons. What he says to one he says to all. He tells us all what to do and then he gives us the ability to do it but we still have to obey with our will. He will not be barring heaven for some and dragging others in. He gives all a measure of faith to believe but we must do the believing. All things are possible to him that believes in God. Unbelief will keep God from blessing us?

God does not believe for us. We must believe and act according to our believing. Saying you have Faith that does not result in obedience is useless.

Brother Chris thank you for your very sane reasoning of the scriptures. I agree with you about the danger of calling our brethren liars just because they don't agree with man made doctrines. We will let God be the judge.

Quote:

""" The teacher comes over to one of the boys and writes the 5 words for him in the correct blanks. The other boy did not know the correct words to put in the blanks. The teacher takes the boy with the correct words that he put in the blanks for him on the trip and the other boy can not go because he didn’t do what the teacher required. How would you feel if the boy who didn’t go was your boy and how would you feel about that teacher?"""

If the teacher is man and he/she has done this thing before man, it would be unfair.

If the Teacher is God, then He would be perfectly righteous in His choice. For it is for His good pleasure that the one with the answers go to camp.
This is God making the clay pot for His perfect choosing of those to be in His Camp.

The five words must have been, 1you 2are 3Mine 4in 5Christ.

The expanded version of those five words:

Ephesians 1:3-13 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: (the five words in the blanks) in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Man's version or Gods', which is plainly portrayed in scripture. Without Christ in you, none of us could heed all the warnings to keep your paper with the five words and don't allow any to deceive you with the words of man. "You will loose your camp privileges if you don't do what I say." For I have chosen you and no man or devil can come against you. "1You 2are 3Mine 4in 5Christ". Or if you prefer: "1 I 2 am 3crucified 4with 5Christ

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Praise God.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

""" The teacher comes over to one of the boys and writes the 5 words for him in the correct blanks. The other boy did not know the correct words to put in the blanks. The teacher takes the boy with the correct words that he put in the blanks for him on the trip and the other boy can not go because he didn’t do what the teacher required. How would you feel if the boy who didn’t go was your boy and how would you feel about that teacher?"""

If the teacher is man and he/she has done this thing before man, it would be unfair.

If the Teacher is God, then He would be perfectly righteous in His choice. For it is for His good pleasure that the one with the answers go to camp.
This is God making the clay pot for His perfect choosing of those to be in His Camp.

In Christ: Phillip

Do you even realized what you just stated. You said "If the teacher is man and he/she has done this thing before man, it would be unfair."

Then you went on to say that if God does it then it is perfectly ok. The bible teaches us to walk in Love as Christ Loved us. God does not have two sets of standards for God is Love.

God has provided the sacrifice for everybody and chooses us in Christ. God gives to everyone the measure of faith to believe. We must exercise our faith in Christ. God can not believe for us. We must do that. It is whosoever that believeth in Christ and that will always be the main difference in those who are saved and those who are not.

rbanks without Gods assistance you will not believe. Thats why Jesus said the only way that you could come to him is if the father drew us. Our faith is not good enough, we will eventually fall away. God implants us with saving faith, not us. I f it was true what you were saying their would be many more saved. God has to move before anything happens in us, we our dead spiritually in our tresspasses. It is not our faith, i trust you if it was you would fall away. Everything is God, you respond but that is that God does something first in you. Our faith is fruitless by ourselves but when the holy spirit empowers us to fully believe that is when you believe.

Amen, bible1985

Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (((((but by the faith Jesus Christ,))))) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be (((((justified by the faith Christ,))))) and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh (((((I live by the faith Son of God,))))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who's Faith?

In Christ's Faith. Not my faith in Christ. The "in" is a misinterpretation of scripture.

It is either of or nothing. Just plain Faith Christ.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

See Greek 3982

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3982. peitho
Search for G3982 in KJVSL
peiqw peitho pi'-tho
a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Can man's faith, reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

This is not the kind of faith an unregenerate man has, It must come from God, through the Holy Spirit by the Faith of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

We cannot without God and God will not without us.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The bible truly says that God does not want any to perish but all to come to repentance.

If there is no responsibility on man's part to hear and believe then why would not God save everybody if man has no responsibility in his salvation.

The only responsibility man has is his condemnation. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is only One hope of glory; Christ in you the hope of Glory.

No man can be perfect before God with out this Hope, which is Christ in you.

We can chase our tails all we want to and God only laughs at our trying to pull ourselves up by our own boot straps and claim salvation by our works, repentance and faith. Simply won't work.

In Christ; Phillip

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

TAKE HEED "BRETHREN", LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU, AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To-Day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
HEBREWS 3;12-14

Blessings, bonni

I don’t know you wisevirgin but assuming that you’re born again.

Do you believe that you were at one time unregenerate?

Do you believe that you at one time had a dominate unregenerate nature that crucified Jesus?

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Thought I would use one of your commentators this time.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:10
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; by the "truth" is meant either Christ the truth of types, the sum of promises, in whom the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are, and by whom grace and truth came; or the Gospel, often called truth, and the word of truth, it coming from the God of truth, has for its subject Christ the truth, is dictated and directed into by the spirit of truth, and contains nothing but truth: and by "the love" of it is meant, either the loveliness of it, for truth is an amiable, lovely thing, in its nature and use; or an affection for it, which there is, where true faith in it is, for faith works by love: there may be a flashy affection for the truths of the Gospel, where there is no true faith in Christ, or the root of the matter is not, as in the stony ground hearers; and there may be an historical faith in the doctrines of the Gospel, where the power of them is denied, and there is no true hearty love for them; and in these persons there is neither faith nor love; the truths of the Gospel are neither believed by them, nor are they affected with them, that so, they might be saved; for where there is true faith in the Gospel of Christ, and in Christ the substance of it, there is salvation; the reason therefore of these men's perishing is not the decree of God, nor even want of the means of grace, the revelation of the Gospel, but their rejection and contempt of it.

Notice even John Gill said here that it was their rejection of it.

I think he's saved.

I'm 100% sure I'm saved. I love God and really do want to live a life for Him but I regularly fall into temptation and give in to lust and masterbation and sometimes porn. I haven't lost my salvation by giving in to sin. If that were the case there would be hope for NO ONE. God does not make a list of which sins are worse and say if you do these sins, I won't accept you, but these others are forgivable. No he forgives ALL sin-all of your past, present, and future sins. My porn is no worse than someone else acting selfish in a different way. Both are in opposition to God. Both are sin. Both are forgiven. However one has a much higher consequence and cost. Porn destroys my closeness to God. It destroys my ability to look at a woman with Christ's love. It destroys my relationships with women and can even destroy marriages, etc. Consequences are higher for certain sins. Sounds like this guy definitely paid a higher consequence. But as hard as it is for us men to look and say oh he died drunk with a prostitute but God still accepts him, that's the truth. David was favored by God and made king. He lusted after Bathseba and had sex with her then killed her husband. God still loved him and still used him. But he paid a heavy price-his son absolam and that whole fiasco. So I don't think sins take away salvation. But they can have huge consequences and regardless of the sin, they all move us away from close intimate relationship from God which is not what we want.

alright, what you're dealing with is someone who does not have biblical Faith.

in order to have Biblical Faith, God must first speak something. And then no matter how terrible and impossible the circumstances look, you believe that God is not only able to perform that which He said He would but also that He WILL do what he said He would do.

And you STAY believeing those two things!

Now, if a person is unrepentant of self provision and self religion, he or she will not know if enough 'good works' have been performed to please an angry God.

Paul's converts understood so well the New Cov't that they were accused of being under "greasy Grace" and he himself was told in not so many words that he was this way.

God took all His anger out on His Son at Calvary. Legally, our Lord cannot be angry at us anylonger. So, if you are 'feeling' like you're not Saved (that phrase gets thrown around loosely), that means you still think you could have performed better.

And because you feel like you did not perform/ act as 'good' as you think you could have, you will spend some certain amount of time, conducting yourself in acts of contrition to 'pay' for the faults you come up in.

This is worldly living.

Godly living is that all sin has been paid for at the Cross and there is no more reason why you cannot go to Heaven, having been perfectly and freely Justified by Radically Free Grace.

Oh yeah, I believe people ought to live by Great Grace. Take as much as you need! Because once you know how loved of God you are and how much you have been forgiven, you are supernaturally 'calmed' and have no need to run out and provide for yourself...( drinking, women, parties, drugs, putting others down to make self feel better, envy, jealousy, self-religion and other sorts of acts of the flesh).

I pray you can understand all this.

Consider these two quotes from the first and the last...that is,the first and the last page of this thread;

HomeFree89 wrote,

"I don't believe you can "lose" it, but I do think that you can choose to leave it."

andie72 wrote,

"I certainly believe we can lose our salvation if we choose to turn away from God, he is faithful but we are not always."

Now consider these quotes from the First and the Last...the Beginning and the End;

Note this first quote from Jer. 32:40 is twofold, and refutes the two quotes from the two mere men above, "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In the verse above, note Who's power it is by which we are kept. It is God's power not our own. And it is through faith which is a gift of God(Eph.2:8.9),and that faith shall not fail because Jesus assures that it won't in Luke 22:32.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you look carefully and intently at the list above, you'll notice that you and I are included in that list, which Paul is persuaded shall not be able to separate us from the love of God,which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. There you and I are as it is written,"nor any other creature". Youngs Literal Translation says,"nor any other created thing." I ask,are you a creature? Are you a created thing?

And finally brethren,

A question to you from none other than the LORD of Glory Himself,

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

How can one who has God in them choose to turn away? He will never leave you.

Do you have Christ in you? This is our perfection, not what we do or don't do.

"It is no longer I who live", I cannot deny that which is no longer mine.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

It is now His working in us. My work means nothing, only my labor, striving according to His working.

Only satan wants man to think he can loose what God has done.

In Christ: Phillip

hi, the question boils down to who saved you and how? we all have a bias when we study the scripture bu Jesus became man to cut a covenant for God and for man for He is The God Man.the blood He shed was the blood of a new and better covenant,kept and administrated by Christ Himself who forever is making intercession for us.He said that He will in no wise cast you out and since He is in charge of the process and has already conquered sin and satan for you...what sin is greater than the blood of this Lamb?jimp

Christinyou said

"Only satan wants man to think he can loose what God has done"

very true, and here's a point of deception. Our enemy continually puts up doubt and confusion before us, seeking to make us doubt the wonderful works of God.

Another fiery dart is the one than says that our sin is greater than His Blood. Never!

There have sadly been times in my own life whenm, because of my own failings I have walked perilously close to the edge. However, on each and every occasion without fail God has disciplined and restored me. No, to truly lose salvation would mean such a rejection of truth already revealed, testimony given, a turning away from something that a person once held as the dearest thing to their weakened heart....

God is sufficient, now and always. His Blood is sufficient. So's His Grace, Faithfulness and all else. Despite our weaknesses, He remains precisely as He is.

Praise God!

Like losing car keys? No, you cannot lose or misplace your salvation.

The question should be changed?

No one ever asks "Can you harden your heart and blaspheme the Holy Spirit"?

Probably because the answer is obvious.

Can you lose your salvation only has one answer? No! I have never misplaced it. The Lord is with me all the time. The question is, will I remain with Him? It was my choice to choose Him and still my choice to choose Him everyday. But the choice I make is very little compared to His grace which keeps me. If you give God a little, He gives you so much more.

He that "endures" to the end SHALL BE SAVED.

The Lord is good. Do not run away from Him when the trials come, do not harden your heart. Train your heart to run to Him. He is for us not against us.

Pro 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

Just a followup with all due respect. I know this question/debate has been going on forever and maybe none of us will truly know until we see Him face to face. But one thing I want to do, is take my Lord's Word seriously. Here are some quotes from the Holy Spirit:

According to God's Word it is possible to:

let the things which you have heard slip (Heb. 2:1)

go astray (Mt. 18:12,13)

err from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)

err from the faith and overthrow the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)

lose your savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)

be offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)

fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)

believe for awhile but in time of temptation fall away (Lk. 8:13)

be offended, betray one another and hate one another (Mt. 24:10)

have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)

turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)

forsake the right way and go astray (2 Pet. 2:15)

stop abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)

be offended (Jn. 16:1)

turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)

depart from the faith, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)

turn your ears away from the truth and turn unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)

acquire an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Heb. 3:12)

fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)

refuse Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)

become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)

not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)

have God take away your part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)

be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)

be carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

Better to take heed to these words than man's.

---deleted--- double post by accident.

Better to take heed to these words than man's.

absolutely correct. All these have the same context as far as I scanned. The point to all of these deals with the Object of our Faith.

No where do we see individual sins denying us the Savior. We do see that the ultimate sin, of unbelief, will get us no where fast. See Jude's writings on unbelief.

Once you have had an actual encounter with the Loving Savior and are given His Free Radical Grace, you won't turn from Him.

We are only deceived in thinking someone was truly Saved when they say they 'tried' Christianity and it did not work so they became muslim etc...

That is why it is more important to offer Awesome Grace rather than condemnation. People can live moral lives and still go to hell.

Religion is very moral but hell is filled with the moral people of the world. I don't know anyone who has Jesus living on the inside that is in hell though.

Hello everyone, this is a long thread and I have not read all the posts. Please forgive me if I am repeating scriptures that have already been posted.

This is an excellent explanation from God on the subject of salvation and the losing or regaining of it.

Ezekiel 18:25-32 KJV
(25) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
(26) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

(27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
(28) Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

(29) Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
(30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
(31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Turn to God, turn to Jesus, repent and be saved.

(John 5:14 KJV) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

(John 8:11 KJV) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Revelation 3:19-22 KJV
(19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
(22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

(Jeremiah 31:34 KJV) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Quote:

"""According to God's Word it is possible to:

let the things which you have heard slip (Heb. 2:1)

go astray (Mt. 18:12,13)

err from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)

err from the faith and overthrow the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)

lose your savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)

be offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)

fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)

believe for awhile but in time of temptation fall away (Lk. 8:13)

be offended, betray one another and hate one another (Mt. 24:10)

have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)

turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)

forsake the right way and go astray (2 Pet. 2:15)

stop abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)

be offended (Jn. 16:1)

turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)

depart from the faith, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)

turn your ears away from the truth and turn unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)

acquire an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Heb. 3:12)

fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)

refuse Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)

become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)

not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)

have God take away your part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)

be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)

be carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)"""

All these above are in the Flesh.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Do we have the Spirit of Christ in us? The scripture says if we are saved we do. If we don't, all the above failings pertain and we are lost.

If Christ is in us and we walk according to His Spirit then we cannot fail and will not fail.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:6-11 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Our confidence is in Christ for all that we do, if we are His and His Spirit dwell in us, of whom we can only come to if the Father sends us. We can only know our Father by the Son of whom He is the One the reveals our Father to us. "Our Father", is this how we pray?

""we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to ((((His working, which worketh in me mightily."")))) ""we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be ((((justified by the faith of Christ,"")))) ((((""Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.))))

In Christ: Phillip

You're absolutely right.

If,, if, if, if

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If, if, if, if

Yes, if we walk in the flesh those verses apply to us.

Here is the answer. Let me know what you think about it. It took me a long time to understand these verses but i want to know your thoughts on it first before i comment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The answer is that we whom Jesus died for can not lose our salvation.

It is important to know that during Jesus ministry on Earth and until His death, Jesus only went to preach the Jews and never to the gentiles, and He only taught the Mosaic Covenant with its' 613 Laws. He never taught the New Covenant prior to His death on the cross. He was Israel's Chief Rabbi, and had Jesus taught the New Covenant, He Himself would have been a violator of the Mosaic Covenant, thus disqualifying Himself as being the Perfect unblemished Lamb whose blood washes away (i.e. atones for) all of our sins for all time of we whom God predestined to be saved from before He laid the foundations of the Cosmos.

When Jesus died on the cross, God Annihilated the Mosaic Covenant and instituted the New Covenant through His only begotten Son, Jesus our Messiah. The Thick Veil in the Temple was torn apart. This Veil separated us from God's presence. Now God is in us Christians via the indwelling Holy Spirit, continually transforming our very nature that we may eventually do the good that God created us to do, naturally.

Jesus kept every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law throughout His life, and in His death He took on Himself the stripes we deserved for our sins, Jesus paid off our debts. All was fulfilled and God Annihilated the Mosaic Covenant. A Covenant that could not save any of us, but only condemned us.

Ephesians 1-14).

1-3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

4. HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE COSMOS, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [GR. cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

It's a gift to us, well planned out before time.

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

According to God's timing and plan etc.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as GOD predestined according to God's will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus's message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit(the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

To read a full debated discussion on this topic on Catholic Online and titled 'Absolute Salvation.:

http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=41981