Hi appolus…
There are certainly quite a few Christians (or those who claim to be Christians) who profess a belief in voting. However, that doesn’t make it wrong. Many professing Christians also profess that we are obligated to pay our taxes (although there is a minority who refuse). Yet Jesus gave us an example by supernaturally paying taxes (via a fish) and reminded us to “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”
In this nation, there is no Caesar. There is no dictator. There is no king. Rather, this nation’s government is its people. It is a government “of the people, by the people and for the people” (to quote Lincoln). Each of us are allowed the opportunity to cast a vote in which we voice the direction that we want our nation to go. Believe me: There are forces that are almost “praying” for Christians to NOT vote! Abortionists, Homosexual activists, pornographers (who peddle smut to children and lustful men), public school teacher unions (who want to remove our ability to homeschool), and those who hope that any reference to Christianity can be removed from our nation – they are all hoping that Christians will choose to NOT vote in November.
I would also like to explain that Dr. Dobson, Pat Robertson and any of the other famous Christians do not speak for me. I don’t agree with the doctrinal views of many of these men. I certainly don’t agree that it is unscriptural to refrain from voting (…although I have never heard them say such. But then again, I don’t listen to them).
But is it possible to have a living Church even in a land of plenty?
I think that this is a legitimate point of disagreement. You see, your statement seems to convey the idea that the [i]entire[/i] Church is dead in complacency. I certainly believe that the modern Church, as an institutional system, is dead, dying or lukewarm. Yet I am not. My heart still burns with a passionate hunger to know and fellowship with Christ! The brethren who fellowship here at SermonIndex are not. Many of the good brothers and sisters that I know are just as hungry and thirsty for the things of God as many of us. In fact, there is a vibrant Body of Christ that is alive and well – even outside of the scope of persecution. Yes, there are members of the Body of Christ that are lukewarm. But are you one of them? Am I?
That is the difficulty of speaking of the entire Body of Christ around the world (or in America) in such broad terms. Even when Christ spoke to those seven Churches of Asia in the second and third chapters of Revelation, He didn’t lump them together in one entirely generality. He spoke specifically to the Church in Ephesus (a city), Sardis (a city), Laodicea (a city), etc… This was a time where there weren’t denominations or separate fellowships in the same town. There was one Church in each place, and such generalities are far more sweeping and reflective of the people. It is far more difficult to properly address the western Church with such generalities – because there are so many shades within the Body of Christ here.
It also seems like you have supposed that the Body of Christ would be better off with persecution. Why? If persecution were to come to the true Church, I admit that the distinction between the true Body of Christ and the pretenders might be far more apparent. However, the false Church would still remain. Yet like I stated earlier, even cults that tie themselves to Christianity seem to thrive under persecution. The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and many others seem to thrive under persecution. I suppose that the only Church that might fall apart would be the “name it/claim it” prosperity churches. Even though that might be a good thing, do you really wish that our families, friends, neighbors, cities, and congregations – and effectively, CHRIST himself would be persecuted just so that distinction is more apparent?
I truly believe that we need a revival in this land. Yet we need a move of God that can occur even if the Church is not persecuted. Otherwise, we might blame that revival on persecution, rather than honest love for Christ. There have been revivals in this nation at times that persecution did NOT exist. The Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening, the Welsh Revival and other regional revivals took place outside of the scope of great persecution. Such a revival can take place again. That is what I pray.
Actually, brother, you misunderstand my views. I don’t assume that the answer lay in whether or not we can legislate SIN or GODLINESS. I will say that some local and state governments have lately had a tendency of not only legislating sin, but pushing certain sins upon the people of this nation. Legislation has made it possible for schools to teach that homosexuality, lust, premarital sex, rebellion and abortion are normal and should be applauded. So the legislation of sin is already taking place.
I don’t have any children. But once I do, I do not want this government to say that I cannot teach them Godly truths simply because they don’t think that I should. I don’t want this government telling me what I can or cannot say or teach in regard to the faith. I don’t want the government to charge me with hate crimes for simply stating the fact that homosexuality is ungodly and unnatural. I don’t want this government to use my tax dollars as a means to murder millions of unborn babies (or to be used to pay for “secret” abortions for children without their parents ever finding out).
Do I think that Christians should take over the country? I tell you what – it would be a good thing and a bad thing. It would be a good thing to have righteous men in office. It would be a bad thing because it is difficult to get two Christians to agree on ANYTHING regarding specific doctrines. It is [u]ridiculous[/u] to assume that a desire to elect Christians or godly men is reflective of a “Dominionist” view. Rather, it simply reflects a desire to prevent the total domination of EVIL in every aspect of this nation. I am not a Dominionist at all. Yet I pray for there to be Christians who make the decisions in our city, state and country. Why? It is a whole lot better than having atheists making all of the decisions for us!
Glad you asked! Abortion is now at the lowest rate since it was legalized! A couple of weeks ago, I added a news article to the forums about how abortion had fallen to its lowest levels ever (even though the population has increased significantly). Approximately 200,000 – 400,000 less lives are murdered each year now compared with just a few years ago.
The abortion rate was at its highest during the Carter Administration. Ronald Reagan signed an executive order preventing our taxpayer dollars to be used to fund abortions or abortion research. George Bush (41) kept that order. Reagan and Bush also appointed individuals to the Supreme Court who were not judicial activists. Clinton, on the other hand, lifted the gag order and allowed our money to pay for abortions in the United States and Africa! He also appointed two judicial activists to the Court – who remain the two most liberal members of the Court. They have voted ONLY in favor of abortion – regardless of the facts. They also vote in favor of homosexual activism and even secular humanism that attempts to remove all aspects of the Christian faith from our history. Bush (43) has appointed two conservative members to the Court. As a result, abortion rights groups are fearful of bringing any appeals to the Court, because they fear that it would be counterproductive. These groups, however, have promised to quickly move cases on appeal to the Court if Obama is elected and appoints liberals to the Court.
Really? No water? Brother, how many individuals have you lead to the Lord over the past few years? Are you a part of that 93%? Where did you even get that figure (93%)? Is that based upon a scientific poll, or did someone just say it? Even if that figure is accurate, is the problem with the freedoms and lack of persecution in our COUNTRY or in the complacency of those who call themselves Christians?
The fact remains that TRUE Christians are always sharing their faith! They may not always be producing a crop 30, 60 or 100 fold, but they share their faith nonetheless. You see, the problem with your statement is that it goes back to a broad generalization that we sometimes use. Yes, the Church is dead – but only in a generalized perspective that includes everyone who CLAIMS to be a believer and excludes those who really are believers. I guess that your qualm regarding all of this is not with TRUE believers, but with PROFESSING Christians. Just because a person “professes” to be a believer doesn’t make it so.
So if we could direct this toward those of us who truly know and love Christ…
Believers who choose do vote do not do so in order to take “dominion” of this world and its governments. Rather, we simply want to curtail the legislature and candidates from promoting those things that we might think are dangerous to our families, friends, neighbors, and fellow believers. Yes, the Gospel will be preached regardless or persecution or not. But I would prefer not. I would gladly give my life because I preached the Word – but I would prefer that I could live to preach another day. It’s not that I want to remain in this present world and my temporary country. To die is gain. But for the sake of those who have not heard, I prefer to stay around longer.
Amen!
Or perhaps those who have the light have refused to shine it everywhere (such as in the voting booth)? Have many believers have hidden their light? Have we hidden it away from the candidates who make decisions that affects 300 Million in this country alone?
Actually, brother, that quote was directed at the people of God – the NATION OF ISRAEL. But yes, it can be extended to believers today. But the point is that the true Church humbles themselves and pray. This isn’t a Scripture that precludes voting; rather, it shows the preeminence and importance of prayer in a dark world.
Amen! And like I said before, the Welsh Revival (and the two earlier Great Awakenings) happened in places relatively void of true persecution or legislated ungodliness. Benjamin Franklin, in his autobiography, wrote about the effects of George Whitefield. He described how you knew that Whitefield had been through town due to the bars closing down, gambling ceasing and the public singing of hymns by individuals walking throughout the town. He also related how Whitefield should be regarded as one of our founding fathers, because he exerted so much influence on those who help design the nation. If I remember correctly, Whitefield preached to over 2/3 of the men who participated in the Continental Congress.
But I agree with you: Prayer is the most important thing. We need to know God. Whether we choose to vote, we need to know and seek the face of our Maker and Divine Friend!
:-)
