Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14

Recently at church, I had the opportunity to teach a group Bible study during a cell group. The passage we explored was 2 Chronicles 7:14 which says:

If My people who are called by My name would humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and heal their land.

I would encourage you to listen to the following teaching along with the discussion that took place (due to a number of factors, the group discussion was edited/compressed). If there ever were a teaching we need to grasp in America, I believe this is one we ought to grasp and hold on to:

Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14 (6.7 MB Download / 57 minutes)

Any thoughts of your own?

KingJimmy,

The scripture you have placed here is that which is spoken to Israel...a Theocracy under Law, to Israel and Israel alone.

There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation. We have no Kings as overseers sitting upon a throne, over America.

Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen

Unfortunately Replacement Theology has replaced the Abrahamic Covenant of individual salvation based upon the finished work of Christ, becoming Children of promise, As Isaac was so are we to a National Salvation.

We know Israel as a Nation was never saved.

To apply this scripture to a group you would call My People as if America is now My People is not only presumptuous sin but at the height of arrogance.

To assume My People refer only to the Body of Christ, (those individual believers In Christ) stating they are wicked and need to turn from their wicked ways, is an assault upon the Church and the Body of Christ.

The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation.

Who ever said it was passed onto another nation? This promise was made with "My people." There are not two peoples of God, but one. The land, while in 2 Chronicles 7:14, God is specifically talking about the geographical land of Israel, upon which His eye is upon. However, that doesn't mean it cannot apply to the land in which we live. Jeremiah reminds the exiles to pray for the welfare of the nations where they have been scattered:

Jeremiah 29:4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and become the fathers of sons and daughters, and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; and multiply there and do not decrease. 7 Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare.

You said:

To apply this scripture to a group you would call My People as if America is now My People is not only presumptuous sin but at the height of arrogance.

I am not calling America "My people." That would be a statement of uttermost arrogance if I were to do so... something which many Christians seemingly do. I'm simply saying for those who constitute "My people" dwelling in the midst of America, we are to pray for our nations welfare, just as Jeremiah exhorted the remnant who were in exile.

You said:

The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.

James wrote the following exhortation to the church:

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

The Christian life is one of continual repentance. One need not be living in any active and continuous sin to qualify for this. For even if we are living in no present sin, we are still continuing on the path of repentance from our old life. Sadly though, walking in continual victory is not always an abiding reality for the church. In the former instance, the repentance message is still necessary. If appropriate in the former instance, how much more appropriate is it in the latter?

James 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

KingJimmy, I like to look at verses before and after to get a deeper and clearer understanding of what is being spoken.

It is so easy to just lift any verse out of context that you hope will apply to a doctrine.

James is not talking to a Nation but to individual believers IN CHRIST, still in a carnal state of worldliness.

You will notice with these verses James does not promise that any land or nation they are attached to or living in will be healed due to their obedience.

James as well as Peter were both Apostles to the dispersed of Israel as Paul to the Gentiles. NONE of the Apostles promise lands being healed as a condition of Christian obedience.

Let me ask you KingJimmy. If the handful of Believers in Somalia are obedient, will Somalia be healed?

This teaching leads Christians to look down and around to see what they can do, rather than UP....waiting for the Lord of Glory.

It teaches a false doctrine that the Church is to take dominion of this earth and try to fix the problems.

This is NOT the Gospel.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

KingJimmy, I would also like to add; What you are teaching is in direct opposition and disobedience to the following scriptures.

Colossians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

KingJimmy, I like to look at verses before and after to get a deeper and clearer understanding of what is being spoken... James is not talking to a Nation but to individual believers IN CHRIST, still in a carnal state of worldliness

What do you think we Christians are? We are not merely individuals. Though, of course, we are that. But rather, we are a nation, citizens of another kingdom, ruled by another king. Indeed, James has in mind (obviously) those believers who are still having a "fit of carnality," and are still clinging to old thought patterns and ways of life. Paul had the same problem with the Corinthians. John had the same problem with most the churches in Asia-Minor. The verse I quoted, far from being ripped from context, has a context which is most appropriate.

You will notice with these verses James does not promise that any land or nation they are attached to or living in will be healed due to their obedience.

This is true. But just because one Bible verse doesn't teach something doesn't mean others don't.

NONE of the Apostles promise lands being healed as a condition of Christian obedience.

Indeed, off the top of my head, I can think of no verse written by the apostles that directly teaches the same thing uttered in 2 Chronicles 7:14. But being that there is no such thing as a "canon within a canon," and being that we must look at the whole counsel of God's word, no overt teaching from their writings need be supplied. Otherwise you run into the problem of creating a canon within a canon.

As Gentiles, we have been made joint-heirs with Christ of God's promises and covenants. We are fellow citizens with the saints, part of the commonwealth of Israel, and partakers of the covenants (Ephesians 2:11-22) There is one people of God, not two. Thus, we stand in continuity with the Old Testament saints. They were raised up to be a people of God's own possession, a holy nation, and a royal priesthood. We too, through our union with Christ, have entered into that. Thus, the promises made to the fathers, which were confirmed by Christ (Romans 15:8), are available to us by the same faith by which it was made available to them.

Thus, promises such as 2 Chronicles 7:14 exhort God's people to repent. Indeed, had there been more righteous within Sodom and Gomorrah, those nations would remain even to this day. Why? Because God's people are a nation of priests who, by virtue of their priesthood, are able to mediate God's blessings in tangible ways, and intercede on behalf of the nations in which they dwell.

Thus, the same Elijah who shut the heavens through prayer, was also able to pray that it rain again. This man, who was of the same nature we are, we are given as an example to imitate. For the effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much (James 5:16-17). If Elijah's prayer was able to bring in God's judgment, it was also able to bring the rain that showered the nation with God's mercy. Shall it not be the same with us?

This teaching leads Christians to look down and around to see what they can do, rather than UP....waiting for the Lord of Glory.

Those who are heavenly minded are of earthly good. 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not an exhortation to look "down and around." Rather, it is an exhortation to look up. Indeed, it is a verse to correct those who have been doing nothing but merely looking down and around. But while looking down and around, something caught their attention (the judgments of God), which when paired with a corrective word, caused them to look up.

It teaches a false doctrine that the Church is to take dominion of this earth and try to fix the problems.

Brother, I believe such a comment shows you are arguing with shadows. I am in no way an advocate of "taking dominion" of the earth in the name of Jesus. But that doesn't mean we can't be a tangible source of blessing in the midst of a world under judgment. Indeed, the problems will never be fixed, not until there are a new heavens and new earth.

KingJimmy, I would also like to add; What you are teaching is in direct opposition and disobedience to the following scriptures.

Colossians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Once again, if we are truly heavenly minded we will be of earthly good.

Hi RevBenjamin,

This is an interesting point that you make about replacement theology. From my perspective, there are many Old Testament passages that refer to Israel alone and could not be applied to the church. I wonder if there are some scriptures though, which might be applicable to both Israel and the church. The question this prompts is, how would we know which scriptures these are ? Generally, ‘context’ is what guides us in our interpretation of the Scripture and would enable us to make the distinction. Having said this, when you look at the ‘messianic prophecies’, many of these Old Testament prophecies could only be recognized as prophecies after the fact (after Christ came), and not before.

In the Hebrides revival, the people were motivated to pray regularly for revival based on the idea that God was a covenant keeping God, as revealed in 2 Chronicles 7:14. In fact, at certain points when the people reminded God of these covenants, through prayer, it appears that He responded in a powerful fashion that seemed to indicate that he was honoring these covenants.

However, it is possible that the connection between what these people asked (on a covenant basis) and how God responded, may have been in a sense ‘circumstantial’. Maybe his blessing upon this people had simply to do with the fact that they prayed without ceasing and purified their hearts, and so it could be that ‘the prayers of righteous men and women availed much’.

I think the experience of the Hebrides revival does lend some credence to the possibility that certain Old Testament covenants apply to the church as well though, and makes this topic worthy of further investigation. Maybe a good question to ask is, do we find any record of the apostles making references to any Old Testament covenants ( originally meant for Israel) and applying them to the church ?

In Jesus,
John

Hi RevBenjamin,

As far as Kingdom Theology or Dominion Theology, I believe these are doctrines to be concerned about and to stay far away from. I see this theology as saying that Christians can restore the Earth and all its kingdoms (political kingdoms, social kingdoms etc) to Christ. In other words, we can ‘Christianize the Earth’, in contrast to the focus being on changing the hearts of individuals, through salvation in Christ. Kingdom Theology is all about us becoming powerful, becoming little kings and queens who set up Christ’s reign on Earth, in a sense.

In contrast, when I see people applying 2 Chronicles 7:14 to the church, most often I see the emphasis being on humility and not on power, at least not on our power, but on God’s power. From what I have seen throughout church history, revivals have always been preceded by God’s people praying and God honoring these prayers. For sure, he is sovereign in when he chooses to revive his people, but he always revives them at times when they have exercised obedience, through prayer and repentance. If it turns out that 2 Chronicles is being misapplied or misunderstood here, my impression is that the motive behind the application of this scripture would be different from the motives that are behind Kingdom Theology.

Love in Christ :-)
John

live4jc,

As I opened up this page, I couldn't help but notice the thread at the beginning...The Purpose of suffering. With this in mind, let's review the following scriptures in depth,

1 Corinthians 4
1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

8Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Paul is being somewhat sarcastic here. I'm curious about the KING in front of Jimmy's name. Is your name in fact KING Jimmy, or are you stating in some sort of way you are reigning NOW as a King? Let's look at what Paul says next;

9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;

12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Yes, Paul has BEGOTTEN us through the Gospel. Let's examine again , What is the Gospel?

Paul is telling the Church we are being groomed to one day Reign and rule as Kings and Priests upon the earth. But when? My answer is when Christ returns upon the Earth and the Millennium Kingdom Reign of Christ is established.

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We, His Body are now at this time being made through sanctification of the spirit, being conformed to His Image through the fellowship of His sufferings.

It would also be noted, the only people teaching this are those of Kingdom Now Replacement Theologians.

We too must realize scripture is not for any private interpretation. In other words. we just can't snatch scripture anywhere we like, and apply our own touchy feely doctrine around it, regardless of how it may arouse our fleshly self righteous humanism.

What you are saying live4jc, is most wonderful. And yes, we are to pray for the lost souls of this world. But 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not, in any way making the same statement. They are praying for their LAND, not lost souls. In OT Israel, earthly blessings were attached to their obedience. The Church however is no longer part of the world, and does not seek after earthly blessings. WE are blessed in Heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS. This doctrine also leads to and is steeped in the Prosperity false doctrine teachings. It simply does not belong to the Church.

Blessings to you all,

R.G. Benjamin

Hi RevBenjamin,

Brother, I understand where you are coming from in your concerns. My main point is that rightly or wrongly Christians have applied 2 Chronicles 7:14 to the church, over the years, most times, I believe, with godly motives. For instance, here's a devotional from Spurgeon, that's based on 2 Chronicles 7:14. He says, "He has left us because of our faults, and we must entreat Him to return."

This wraps up my thoughts on this topic.

In Christ,
John

If, and a Triple Promise (CH Spurgeon)

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14)
Called by the name of the Lord, we are nevertheless erring men and women. What a mercy it is that our God is ready to forgive! Whenever we sin let us hasten to the mercy seat of our God, seeking pardon.

We are to humble ourselves. Should we not be humbled by the fact that after receiving so much love we yet transgress? O Lord, we bow before Thee in the dust and own our grievous ingratitude. Oh, the infamy of sin! Oh, the sevenfold infamy of it in persons so favored as we have been!

Next, we are to pray for mercy, for cleansing, for deliverance from the power of sin. O Lord, hear us even now, and shut not out our cry.

In this prayer we are to seek the Lord's face. He has left us because of our faults, and we must entreat Him to return. O Lord, look on us in Thy Son Jesus, and smile upon Thy servants.

With this must go our own turning from evil; God cannot turn to us unless we turn from sin.

Then comes the triple promise of hearing, pardon, and healing. Our Father, grant us these at once, for our Lord Jesus Christ's sake.

In this prayer we are to seek the Lord's face. He has left us because of our faults, and we must entreat Him to return. O Lord, look on us in Thy Son Jesus, and smile upon Thy servants.

With this must go our own turning from evil; God cannot turn to us unless we turn from sin.

Then comes the triple promise of hearing, pardon, and healing. Our Father, grant us these at once, for our Lord Jesus Christ's sake.

live4jc,

Who is the audience here?

I will have to disagree with Spurgeon here on this subject. Unfortunately many expounded and spiritualized verse by verse scripture that is not meant to be spiritualized. This was a LITERAL call of repentance to a NATION. When one sinned they were ALL punished. However this is NOT the way the Church operates. I am not punished because of something YOU have done. I am not punished because YOU did not humble yourself.

We are saved by Grace through faith. We are justified by His blood, and saved by His risen life.

We die to sin once and for all.

Israel was not Born again...born of the Spirit of the Life of Christ who set them free from the law of sin and death.

I also might add, Spurgeon taught Calvinism, Calvinism being the father of the Prosperity Gospel, perpetuating a false Gospel that everywhere they set foot, America, South Africa etc, they took dominion of the land, calling it...as in America...God's New Promise Land and God's New Chosen people. Called the protestant Pope, perpetuating Romish Ideas of dominion/replacement theology.

Please do more heart searching on this subject.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

So, what you are saying then, RevBenjamin, that ultimately it is futile to pray for the well being of our nation, to intercede on its behalf, and to pray that God show it mercy. If this is an over-realized eschatology, then I'm over-realized.

hi, i believe that if we ever humble our proud and haughty selves (a stench in the nostrils of God) we might see revival.jimp

KingJimmy, Paul tells us in the NT, we are to pray for those in power over us. But no where are we called to convert Nations.

All I'm saying is the verse you and so many others use, is not applicable, and was never used by any of the Apostles for the NT Church, or the countries or lands they found themselves living in.

We, His Church, His Body, are actually called out of this world and worldly systems, to be Ambassadors for Christ..to reconcile sinners to God, through Jesus Christ. Again, not to Nations, but to individual sinners.

Nations are not baptized into the Body of Christ. Nations as a whole cannot identify in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, therefore becoming a New Creature.

Nations cannot walk in the spirit and not give way to the flesh.

And we must also remember, God sets up Kings( heads of nations) and pulls them down...for His purpose and His Glory.

Kings were placed over Nations...not Pope's.

Christians have been translated out of this present evil age into the Kingdom of His Dear Son. We've overcome the world, and it's worldly systems (Mystery Babylon).

Our mission here is simply this:

If you see a ship burning and KNOW it is going to sink, do you:

1. Spend your time putting out the fire?
2. Get as many OFF the ship as you can before it goes down?

I believe the Church is called to #2.

We are strangers and pilgrims in this world and its systems.

I hope that answered your concerns.

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

But no where are we called to convert Nations.

Brother, I've been listening in here, and in all fairness you are propping up a straw man. Jimmy isn't saying we should 'convert a nation'.

The old puritans never considered a land to be wicked because the wicked are in it, for the wicked will always be in this world. They considered a land to be wicked when those who were supposed to be righteous acted wickedly without reproof or shame.

When a Christian asks God to 'heal this land' or to 'bring revival to this nation' he isn't necessarily expressing dominionist theology. This is a prayer that those who are professing to be Christians within the land will become revived. Revival might very well mean those who thought they were Christians actually discover what that means, and become what they've been professing outwardly for the first time in their inward nature.

You've invested much argument in the anabaptist position, so I don't expect to convert you. I am only asking that you show a little more intellectual integrity to Jimmy and cease from trying to render him as some Constantinian babylonian dominionist just because he cares about the people of this nation.

If you see a ship burning and KNOW it is going to sink, do you:

1. Spend your time putting out the fire?
2. Get as many OFF the ship as you can before it goes down?

Well, I think you would do both. Besides, knowing that the world will end in God's time is quite a different thing then presuming to know when the United States will end. Presuming to know the fate of the United States is actually a very intrusive political statement...a (edit: contradictory) position I see being expressed more and more these days by so-called 'pilgrims' who are supposed to be divested and uninvolved in the systems of this world.

MC

When a Christian asks God to 'heal this land' or to 'bring revival to this nation' he isn't necessarily expressing dominionist theology.

Compton, on what NT grounds is there to heal this land?

And again, what is revival? Reviving the saved or the lost?

Can you apply NT scripture concerning reviving the WICKED ways of MY PEOPLE, who would be Christians, that constitutes this kind of blessing?

To accuse the Church of being WICKED, who need turn from her wicked ways before God can heal, is anti-christ!

Romans 16: 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

What is the Gospel we are to make known to [u][i][b]ALL NATIONS[/b][/i][/u]??

It is none other than the Gospel according to the [b]MYSTERY[/b].

What then is this [b]MYSTERY[/b]?

Colossians tells us, the Mystery is Christ in you, the hope of Glory. Now where is Glory?

Again Compton, the Gospel according to the Mystery is not a Gospel calling those In Christ wicked and evil, and the hope of the Nations dependent on the Church turning from her wicked ways, tying God's hands in some way, until WE repent!

This you propose is [i]another gospel[/i] and Paul warns against any other gospel, and calls it accursed.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

Numbers 22:12
And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

Jude 1:11
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

What was Balaam's sin? Being asked to Curse Israel! A hirling prophet!

Who are the Balaam's of today, those who bring down curses to the church!

AND that is exactly what that verse is doing.

The Church is Blessed, Holy, Righteous in Christ Jesus, a Chaste Virgin Bride!

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

To accuse the Church of being WICKED, who need turn from her wicked ways before God can heal, is anti-christ!

I specifically said that those who were supposed to be righteous behaved wickedly and have no shame...

I've expressed my perspective. I would be happy to discuss that perspective. I don't have time to respond to the many ways you can rephrase what is said. However, I'll go along on this one.

What do we mean by 'healing' a land? Do we mean that the politicans will become Christians? That would be a welcome turn of events, but that still wouldn't 'heal' the land.

Returning to your ship metaphor; imagine there is a ship at sea with 100 shipmates, and only 2 of them are true Christians with character. The rest of crew is busy drinking, gambling, fighting and letting the ship fall apart. (It's why the ship invariable caught on fire.) Now imagine an evangelist came on board and, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, led half of the shipmates to Christ. Now instead of looking for handouts the repentant Christian crew members started putting in an honest days work. In no time at all, the general welfare of the ship would improve. The other shipmates, including the Captain, are still not Christians and are still without character, and are still living destructively while the honest men work. Nevertheless, because the righteous population aboard the ship have character, the result is that all are benefited and prosper aboard this ship. In this scenario, we can say that there was a healthy restoration of the crew aboard the ship. The ship isn't a Christian ship with a Christian flag, but nevertheless the collective character of it's crew is greatly improved, which greatly increases the survivability of the entire ship.

Likewise, when too many professing Christians live like the world, the general welfare of the nation suffers. For instance, my entire family was blessed when I repented. My wife and children experienced the blessings that comes with their husband and their father having an improved character. This is not to say they are going to heaven from my conversion, or even that my being saved opened up a heavenly fountain of blessing. Simply put, because I am more healthy, my family is going to be just a little more healthy, and they experience just a little less of sin's corrosive decay in the general welfare of the shared domestic sphere. Furthermore, my son has a better chance of choosing the right path for his family, because instead of a bad example, he has a much improved example to learn from. Again, these blessings are not an example of seeking after Babylon or of promoting dominion theology, but a derivative of just one man following Christ.

In both my examples, the wicked shipmates and the unsaved family members will still have to reckon their personal accounts with God, but nevertheless, because of the character and actions of a few righteous, they have more access to the fruit of honest labor such as increased security and health.

The blessings of a Godly saint upon the ship, family, or nation he is part of is just common sense, and is not a vote for Constantine.

Blessings rev,

MC

MC, are you assuming that the NT Church comes under the same blessings as did Israel?

The Gospel is God's final announcement before His Wrath. We cannot stop or delay the wrath to come, as in the times of Nineveh. Yes, it was delayed, however Nineveh fell, just as God said.

If you say, too many professing Christians live like the world, then one might ask, what is your definition of Christian?

There will always be tares among the wheat, but a tare is a tare is a tare, and no hope of changing into wheat.

I believe I said the idea behind KingJimmy and all others concerned for our nation is noble, but the verse used to establish this bleeding heart liberal idea of another Gospel in place of the only one we are to be obedient to is not found in scripture.

After reviewing KingJimmy's web site that was the initial intention here to begin with in his original beginning post is what needs to be reviewed and brought to light as the motives.

Not only do I pray for our nation but all nations as well.

The Blessings and cursings upon any nation goes back to Abraham. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.

There are two YOU's here in Abraham. The YOU who are the church....As Isaac was...so are YOU....Birthed by God, through a promise. And the YOU of the Nation of Israel, the Elect, through Jacob.

If we curse either one, His Body, or His Beloved Israel, we need to repent as a Nation!

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

http://www.churchofhopeontheweb.org/articles/2Chron714.htm

Compton, here is a site you may want to gleen from. It appears many today feel the same as I do.

2 Chronicles 7:14 is the issue that this false teaching...no matter what it is, centers around.

Many are claiming that through this verse brings REVIVAL to Nations.

The Only thing that brings revival is the preaching of the Cross. Christ Crucified and Risen! Revival in NT times is to revive the dead in their sin, not the living in Christ, who have already been revived in the Risen Christ.

God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time! Those who are not dealt with are called illegitimate. What does God have to do with these. According to Hebrews....nothing at this time!

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

But no where are we called to convert Nations.

[b]Matthew 24
14[/b]. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

[b]Matthew 28
19[/b]. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Actually, that is the definitive command -- "to convert Nations". As it so happens, the nations are comprised of many individual people and God desires that none of them should perish but that all receive the gift of everlasting life through His Son.

There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation. We have no Kings as overseers sitting upon a throne, over America.

You will also notice [b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b] says nothing about kings. And a side note, the Pope, though he is in my opinion probably the greatest example of the anti-Christ, is still in authority and therefore raised up by God to judge this ungodly generation. He is also to be blessed by us just as Hitler was in his time.

Neither is the context "If the [u]children of Israel[/u] ..."

But rather it is "If My people who are called by My Name ..."

So I guess if you do not desire to be called by His Name then indeed this does not apply to you.

[b]Romans 9
6[/b]. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
[b]7[/b]. nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named."
[b]8[/b]. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

[b]Galatians 3[/b]
[b]7[/b]. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
[b]8[/b]. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Notice the explicit connotations:

"those who are of faith are sons of Abraham"
"it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants"

So in a very literal sense, if we are born again according to the adoption as sons, we are descendants according to the Promise and fellow-heirs with the true children of Israel by faith through Christ Jesus.

To assume My People refer only to the Body of Christ, (those individual believers In Christ) stating they are wicked and need to turn from their wicked ways, is an assault upon the Church and the Body of Christ.

The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.

[b]1 John 1
8[/b]. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The Church as a Body of individual believers, of whom Christ is the Head, just like a nation or kingdom (that is a nation raised up to be a royal priesthood), is to be [b]reckoned[/b] as dead to sin.

Are you trying to hold up a theology that says anyone who is wicked or sins is not part of the Body of Christ? Or that we are each without sin or wickedness in our hearts?

And yes, we are to pray for the lost souls of this world. But 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not, in any way making the same statement. They are praying for their LAND, not lost souls.

The word used for LAND in [b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b] can be used to indicate the territory or the inhabitants of the land. Now, there are two implications here.

1) the land itself, as the OT had a lot of earthly fulfillments, to grow crops and livestock, etc..

2) the people themselves to be healed and delivered of sicknesses and diseases and slavery. Not to mention, if the land, ground, prospered the inhabitants would naturally prosper.

Especially considering if God's people obey and seek Him then He "will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

The idea here is a holistic redemption: heaven, forgive sin, and land.

We may easily recognize this to mean: spirit, soul, and body, respectively.

Likewise, as it is promised, "all the nations will be blessed in you;" if the church is prospering in the riches of glory in Christ Jesus then will not God hear our prayers, will He not forgive our sin, will He not redeem the lost and renew the face of the earth with fire?

Now, I also agree with you when you said the following,

In OT Israel, earthly blessings were attached to their obedience. The Church however is no longer part of the world, and does not seek after earthly blessings. WE are blessed in Heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS. This doctrine also leads to and is steeped in the Prosperity false doctrine teachings. It simply does not belong to the Church.

This is absolutely true. However, I have also just showed this blessing is also understood as a blessing received in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

But we should not entirely throw out the "prosperity doctrine" insofar as it is properly weighed and balanced against eternity. You will recall the well-known verse, "Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these other things shall be added unto you."

The "other things" are obviously those things the Lord knows we have need of. So there is an element of earthly prosperity that remains. Yet, this is by no means a guarantee or promise of fatness or comfort. Personally, I see the "prosperity" in worldly terms as it was prayed in this way:

[b]Proverbs 30
7[/b]. Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
[b]8[/b]. Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
[b]9[/b]. Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

I may be mistaken Rev. Ben, but it almost seems like you are so repulsed by "Kingdom Now" theology (and rightly so) that you are throwing out many of the commands and promises of God.

As it also ought to be remembered that it is not we who are yet kings and priests but He Who is in us, our glorious King and High Priest; He is the One Who is greater than he who is in the world.

[b]Matthew 28
18[/b]. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[b]Acts 1
8[/b]. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me...

Because Christ abides in us and we in Him (if indeed we are His) we are kings and priests insofar as we are in Him. This is important because of the fact that if we were not priests through faith in Christ then we could not pray and intercede unto our Father. And if we were not kings through faith in Christ then the demons would not be subject unto us by His Name nor would we be partakers of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the edification of the church and, again, to be witnesses unto the nations.

Dear RevBenjamin,

You had written :

“Revival in NT times is to revive the dead in their sin, not the living in Christ, who have already been revived in the Risen Christ.

God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time!”

I believe that a Christian is justified by faith in Christ and by his blood. However, the Bible describes the sins a Christian can commit as ‘filth’ etc. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says : "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.."

I agree that God holds us morally responsible only for our own sins. However, as far as maintaining the purity of the church which reflects on the impact of the church, I also believe that he calls us to be responsible for the sins of other members in the church. 1 Corinthians 5:6 says, “Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?”. One commentary I read on this verse explains it this way :

“It does not take much leaven to infect the whole lump of bread. A small amount of leaven will spread through the whole lump of dough. Leaven here stands for evil influence. It ferments with putrefaction, with rottenness. Tolerance of incest in the congregation will spread its corrupting influence into the entire congregation.”

In Revelations, I see Christ dealing with the ‘churches’; the church of Ephesus, the church of Sardis etc. Also, Paul’s letters were addressed to churches as a whole.

In Revelations 3:14-22 we read about the message to the church of Laodicea, which Christ describes as “wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.” He urges this church to “repent”. Then in Revelations 2 : 1-7 he addresses the church of Ephesus, again urging this church to repent and in verse 5 he says ,”or else I will remove your candlestick out of its place”. A ‘repentant church’ seems to be much the same thing as a ‘revived church’.

To me the candlestick speaks, among other things, to the influence that this church would have on the unbelieving world.

Also, in Christ’s Sermon on the Mount message he said, “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored?”
Matthew 5 :13

God bless you,
John

14. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven preached in Matthew will be preached before the end comes.

However NOW is preached the Gospel according the Mystery.

I believe the real issue lies here. The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is that Kingdom preached, the Millennial Kingdom Reign, taking place after the rapture of the church. The church is called to the Gospel according to the Mystery, Christ in you.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, speaks on this...on earth as it is in Heaven.

Things will not be on earth as it is in Heaven until Jesus Christ returns.

You are wanting to co-mingle law and grace, by stating we have earthly blessings as well as heavenly blessings. Paul tells us a little Leaven ruins the whole lump.

Those of OT 2 Chronicles 7:14 had a KING through the line of Judah sitting on the throne at the time of this verse, calling that Nation, Israel into repentance, a nation under LAW, not Grace. We are not under OT Law, but under Grace.

This Covenant under Law was given to Israel alone, and no Mosaic Law was ever passed on to a Gentile Nation placing any King of Judah on a throne.

You make a most remarkable statement that makes me gasp in shock,

You will also notice 2 Chronicles 7:14 says nothing about kings. And a side note, the Pope, though he is in my opinion probably the greatest example of the anti-Christ, is still in authority and therefore raised up by God to judge this ungodly generation. He is also to be blessed by us just as Hitler was in his time.

God did not raise up Hitler to judge anyone. We are living in the age of GRACE, not God's Judgement and wrath.

Your argument is a straw man at best, and anti-Semitic at most.

A witches brew of this and that, making no sound stand for the Gospel in any way.

Christians are being murdered in Somalia for being OBEDIENT to preaching the Gospel.

Christians are called to SUFFER with Christ, and carry the sufferings of Christ.

You want your cake and you want to eat it too!

I can't help you out here, you're on your own!

R.G. Benjamin

God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time!

Well, it may be that you and I aren't so far apart after-all.

I would agree there is some troubling overlap between the law, the Gospel, and the Nation of Israel and the New Covenant relationship through Christ. I understand there might be some resemblance in what I said to dominion theology. (A term brandied so loosely today that it seems that anyone who isn't praying for violent persecution is suspected of having Babylonian sympathies.)

So let me say I appreciate what you are saying. I was only trying to point out that I think you are reading too much into the things Jimmy was saying.

To further build understanding here between us let me freely admit two pitfalls that can come in some of the viewpoints I expressed.

One of the banner sermons of this website is Ten Shekels and a Shirt. The central premise is that preaching the Gospel for man's benefit is missing the central purpose of bringing God his deserved glory. Likewise, emphasizing only the benefits of the Gospel upon society will inevitably puts the Church on an idolatrous seeker-sensitive vector...a corrupted direction that I feel, if not halted and repented of, leads to rank universalism.

The other possible critique of what I shared is simply that by emphasizing earthly benefits we have replaced the gospel with the law. Many Christian 'principles' today seem to suggest that if we obey perfectly we can live without suffering or pain...a falsehood I patently reject from both NT scripture and experience as a Christian.

The balance to these critiques of any belief that observes the earthly blessings of Christianity, including your concern of dominionism, is to remember that these things are simply derivatives of the Gospel...not the message itself.

The US army offers enlisters a chance to go to college. However, a man enlists in the army to be a soldier, not to get a free college education. If he signs up for the college education, he might feel he has been misled when he goes to war. The problem is with his understanding of the terms of enlistment. Nevertheless, in the army there has been established a relationship between going to college and going to war. The two aren't the same thing at all, but they share an appositional relationship.

Likewise the kingdom of heaven and the earthly nation state aren't the same either. Nevertheless, they do share an appositional relationship. The Christian is being made to glorify God and to desire heaven first and foremost. Yet it is this very crucible of character that makes him a benefit to the Earth. His honesty benefits society. His hard work benefits his society. His love benefits society. His piety benefits society. His fear of God benefits society. His humily benefits society.

And his willingness to die for truth ultimately benefits society...even if only as a witness to the truth. The Christian benifits society preceisely because he does not bow to the idols of society.

The carnal man can hold Christian ideals, but only the Christian can live by Christian principles through the life that lives in him. The Christian is both sectarian from the world (love not the world) and sacrificed for the world (For God so loved the World...) His visible life on earth is not the same as his hidden life in Christ, yet he still seeks to live righteously in both places.

MC

MC, I appreciate your thoughts here, and blessed we can come to a meeting of the mind of Christ in us.

Keep your eye on Glory!

Exodus 24:16
And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

That was then.

This is NOW

1 Peter 4:12-14

12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

This shall come.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

So many preach today that America has lost the Shekinah Glory of God. Let me ask you, did it ever have it to begin with? That is called Presumptuous!

Christ in you...the Hope of GLORY!!!!

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

John,

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

My reference to leaven is to this: Legalism.

Mixing Law and Grace and coming up with another Gospel as Paul would clearly state, is accursed.

When we die to the Law we also died to sin. Romans 7. Shall we continue to sin tht Grace may abound...God forbid....we died to sin.

In the letters to the Churches, it is stated more than anything else the blessings to the over comers. We also know we don't overcome sin, but died to sin.

We overcome the world, and all that is in the world. We overcome the wicked one who would draw us back into the world and worldly systems. We also overcome those who would put us under Law, robbing us of our liberty in Christ.

2 Chronicles 7:14 was spoken under Law, to those under Law.

“It does not take much leaven to infect the whole lump of bread. A small amount of leaven will spread through the whole lump of dough. Leaven here stands for evil influence. It ferments with putrefaction, with rottenness. Tolerance of incest in the congregation will spread its corrupting influence into the entire congregation.”

You are absolutely correct. Putting those under law, also puts one back under sin and the flesh.

Matthew also states to enter into the Kingdom, one must cut off a hand.

Under Grace, flesh and blood cannot enter in, and the Cross has taken care of our hands, feet, eyes, ears, the whole of man...not just bits and pieces of man.

Paul's whole argument is this....I am ( all of me) is Crucified with Christ....no longer I but Christ in me.....

God Bless,

R.G. Benjamin

I find that when I get into discussions like this one and others, it's sometimes good to take a step back and remember...all those who have been bought by the blood of Christ are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

As such, I love you as my brothers and sisters
:-)

In Jesus,
John

You have a very negative perspective of other's replies Rev. Ben. I was actually agreeing with you when I made the comment about the Pope and Hitler.

And we must also remember, God sets up Kings( heads of nations) and pulls them down...for His purpose and His Glory.

The Popes, as well as Hitler, are heads of nations, or of people. God raises them up and pulls them down for His purposes, just as He did with Pharoah. What I meant by "judging" was to indicate that they rule over people. Yet I don't see why this couldn't also be a judgment against the nations for rebellion against God.

You will also remember that a "king" reigning over Israel was not part of the Mosaic Law, so I am not sure where you are getting that. Having a king to rule over them was no different than permitting the divorce of wives. These things were established because of the hardness of their hearts and desiring to be like other nations who's gods (idols) are not God.

It is also true that no Mosaic Law, the law based on ordinances, was ever supposed to be placed upon a Gentile nation. Yet we are not without the Law of God and Christ and the Spirit.

So please, explain to me these:

1) humble yourselves
2) pray
3) seek God's face
4) turn from your wicked ways

How are these Mosaic Law and of no import or consideration for the NT Christian?

Will God listen to us if we knowingly harbor unrepentant sin in our hearts?

Will God forgive our sins if we subject ourselves again, as the dog returns to its vomit, to the yoke of slavery to lawlessness and death?

Is this not forgetting our purification from sins, if indeed we have been forgiven? I would say the judgment would be all the more severe because we knowingly sin against the Light of regeneration. Personally, I do not lean towards "once saved, always saved."

[b]Ezekiel 3
20[/b]. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Either way, it makes no difference, those who sin against the Lord, if they are sons, shall be chastised. And this is judgment and wrath that comes through His grace to turn us away from our wicked ways. As it is that God repeatedly admonished the people to repent lest He destroy them in His anger, for He says that such signs of destruction that come upon them are warnings against them to turn from their wickedness SO THAT they would not die in their sins and live. Therefore, in this respect God's judgment and wrath becomes the salvation of many sons.

Also, will God forsake his people and leave them to their own strength and provision for the furtherance of His kingdom and the preaching of His Gospel?

God did not raise up Hitler to judge anyone.

No?

But God did raise Hitler up, yes?

Is it not conceivable that Hitler and the Nazi regime were raised up to bring the Jewish people (or rather people in general) unto repentance? And add to this that many Christians were murdered beside their Jewish brothers and sisters.

Or shall we say that God does not work in the whirlwind? The Nazis, among many others throughout history, inflamed by the fires of hell to do the will of their father, the devil, were still given authority by God.

If I was personally taken before Hitler or the Pope I would stand as my brothers Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. "O King / Fuhrer / Pope, live forever! ... let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

It is that simple. Live or die we obey Jesus in all things above men.

We are living in the age of GRACE, not God's Judgement and wrath.

Your argument is a straw man at best, and anti-Semitic at most.

A witches brew of this and that, making no sound stand for the Gospel in any way.

No it is not a straw man and I am not in the least anti-Semitic. I am not preaching the extermination of any nation or people.

Not to mention I was making a very sound stand for the Gospel concerning the adoption of sons as it relates to this verse in [b]2 Chronicles 7[/b]. Or did you overlook that?

Christians are being murdered in Somalia for being OBEDIENT to preaching the Gospel.

Christians are called to SUFFER with Christ, and carry the sufferings of Christ.

And this is expected, promised no-less, did I say anything contrary to this?

We are living in the age of GRACE, not God's Judgement and wrath.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you on this point; unless God has changed?

I understand you seem big on dispensationalism, and that is fine, but the fact remains that God's Grace and Wrath have always been and remain even the same today. The only difference between the time of "Wrath" (as you might say) and "Grace" (today) is that through the revelation of Christ Jesus a Light has shone in the darkness. And because of the greater manifestation of God's Love and Nature in the world of men we are judged accordingly to that responsibility. As it is written, "where much is given, much is required." And now we know that the Father gave His Son and the Son gave the Spirit.

This is no distinction between a time of Wrath or Grace for both come from the One God. And both Wrath and Grace are satisfied in the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus -- who has been slain even before the foundations of the earth. Everyone in the OT received grace through the Eternal Word, even then. For example, the adulterer and murderer, David, yet the man after God's own heart.

To say that the curses -- sickness, diseases, death, violence, tyrants, etc. -- are not part of the Wrath of God, or the Passive Wrath (as it has been called), is naive. These things certainly aren't the "grace" of God, are they? Or does God have no part in these things?

Truly God tempts no man, nor is there any shadow in Him, yet it stands that God's greatest judgment in the world is proclaimed in this present NT day, [b]Romans 1:28, 32[/b], "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient ... Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Those who are in Christ Jesus have passed from death unto life, from judgment to mercy. Yet, the wrath of judgment was still satisfied even for the redeemed. It was not annulled or abolished, just as Jesus said the law would not be, but fulfilled, accomplished, paid in full in Him.

This is the reason the Mosaic Law, a law based on ordinances, has not been passed on to the Gentiles. Because the Law of Christ is not in external practices but is based on a new heart, a new nature, after the image of Christ. It is faith that works by love (charity).

By the way, Ananias and Sapphira (which is NT) ... was that judgment and wrath or was that also grace?

Also, what do you think about this?

[b]Acts 12
21[/b]. On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
[b]22[/b]. The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
[b]23[/b]. And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Or when Paul curses Elymas the magician and tells him,

"Now, behold, the hand of the Lord ([b]God of "only Grace now"[/b]) is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand ([b]Acts 13:9-11[/b]).

I would have to seriously question what you consider "judgment and wrath" and "grace" to be.

The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament.

[b]A.W. Tozer[/b] has said it well,
"God never pits the Father against the Son. He never pits the Old testament against the New."

The Popes, as well as Hitler, are heads of nations, or of people. God raises them up and pulls them down for His purposes, just as He did with Pharoah. What I meant by "judging" was to indicate that they rule over people. Yet I don't see why this couldn't also be a judgment against the nations for rebellion against God.

This is exactly what Kingdom NOW Theology teaches.

It's the Lord Himself who will judge the Nations.

This is no distinction between a time of Wrath or Grace for both come from the One God.

I believe scripture teaches about His WRATH to Come:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Did God in fact raise up Hitler who broke the very laws of Germany MURDERING innocent people because they were not Arianism....and Aryanism...white supremacists?

Did God really raise up Popes to murder CHRISTIANS as well as Jews?

Additional insight!

Hitlers Aryanism:

WOW to those who call evil good and good evil.

The theory of the Northern origins of the Aryans was particularly influential in Germany. It was widely believed that the "Vedic Aryans" were ethnically identical to the Goths, Vandals and other ancient Germanic peoples of the Völkerwanderung. This idea was often intertwined with anti-Semitic ideas. The distinctions between the "Aryan" and "Semitic" peoples were based on the aforementioned linguistic and ethnic history. Semitic peoples came to be seen as a foreign presence within Aryan societies, and the Semitic peoples were often pointed to as the cause of conversion and destruction of social order and values leading to culture and civilization's downfall by proto-Nazi and Nazi theorists such as Houston Stewart Chamberlain and Alfred Rosenberg.

According to the adherents to Ariosophy, the Aryan was a "master race" that built a civilization that dominated the world from Atlantis about ten thousand years ago. This alleged civilization declined when other parts of the world were colonized after the 8,000 BC destruction of Atlantis because the inferior races mixed with the "Aryans" but it left traces of their civilization in Tibet (via Buddhism), and even in Central America, South America, and Ancient Egypt. (The date of 8,000 BC for the destruction of Atlantis in Ariosophy is 2,000 years later than the date of 10,000 BC given for this event in Theosophy.) These theories affected the more esotericist strand of Nazism.

A complete, highly speculative theory of Aryan and anti-Semitic history can be found in Alfred Rosenberg's major work, The Myth of the Twentieth Century. Rosenberg's well researched account of ancient history was very effective in spreading racialism among German intellectuals in the early 20th century, especially after the first World War.

These and other ideas evolved into the Nazi use of the term "Aryan race" to refer to what they saw as being a master race of people of northern European descent. They worked to maintain the purity of this race through eugenics programs (including anti-miscegenation legislation, compulsory sterilization of the mentally ill and the mentally deficient, the execution of the institutionalized mentally ill as part of a euthanasia program.

Heinrich Himmler (the Reichsfuhrer of the SS), the person ordered by Adolf Hitler to implement the final solution (Holocaust), told his personal masseur Felix Kersten that he always carried with him a copy of the ancient Aryan scripture, the Bhagavad Gita because it relieved him of guilt about what he was doing — he felt that like the warrior Arjuna, he was simply doing his duty without attachment to his actions

The KINGDOM NOW, or DOMINION THEOLOGY teaching is continuing to make rapidly inroads into churches across the world. This theological persuasion has penetrated into evangelical, pentecostal and mainline charismatic denominations, the proportions of this thing is so huge that some leaders from overseas are stating that an entirely new denomination is being formed by this movement. There are dangerous trends emerging, the area we will deal with here is the anti-Semitic trend.

Because the Dominionists believe that Israel has no place in the plan of God since the Church of the New Testament was formed, the obvious question has been asked by them, WHY HAS ISRAEL TAKEN OVER PALESTINE? These theologians do not acknowledge that Israel will be restored to the land of promise by the hand of the Almighty. The Kingdom Now people apply the Old Testament promises to the Church, never to Israel, they see no victory for the Israelis, only the Church triumphant! There is contempt for the Jews growing at a fast rate amongst those who allegorize the Biblical prophecies, just as there was in Hitler's day. As David Allen Lewis, Assembly of God Pastor, has put it in his book, "Prophecy 2,000": "Many of Hitler's henchmen quoted outstanding Christian theologians in justification for feeding the Jews to the gas furnaces. The Church in Germany had taught the "doctrine of contempt" for the Jews and it was gist for the Satanic Nazi's mill. Beware of the Kingdom Now teachers for this reason, as well as all the other reasons." (Page 268).

I am sorry but "blah, blah, blah, bl-blah."

What does any of this conspired history have to do with what we are talking about?

The Bible clearly says, as you said so yourself, it is God who raises up and tears down kings and kingdoms.

If this is what "Kingdom NOW Theology teaches" then at least they are saying one truth from the Scriptures.

[b]Romans 9[/b]
17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Hm, God raised up Pharoah. The same Pharoah who enslaved and murdered the people of God.

[b]Amos 6[/b]
14. "For behold, I am going to raise up a nation against you, O house of Israel," declares the LORD God of hosts, "And they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath to the brook of the Arabah."

Hm, God raising up a nation against His children to slay many of them. This is but one of many instances and in this instance only ONE nation was raised up against them.

[b]Revelation 13[/b]
7. It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

And again, here is God giving authority to the anti-Christ to wage war against the SAINTS and to OVERCOME them, etc. Fascinating, I know. Yet, God shall not forsake the saints through all these things and these are the things which shall come to pass before the end.

Perhaps I should also mention the times where God Himself slew His people?

Did God really raise up Popes to murder CHRISTIANS as well as Jews?

Much more than this my friend,
[b]Jesus also gave authority to the powers of this world to murder and crucify Himself[/b]. Indeed, it could not have happened any other way.

Shall you call this evil, this thing which God was well pleased to accomplish?

It should be noted however that it is not God who is the instigator of evil here. Which may be what you are fleeing from here. But this is the curse of the world and the way things are. To put it another way, all God has to do to raise up a nation against His people or against His Son is:

[b]Nehemiah 9[/b]
28. "But as soon as they had rest, they did evil again before You;
Therefore You abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they ruled over them.

How is God often described as judging people here in the earth? He gives them over to do the sinful desires they want to do (the end thereof being death) or to what others are already trying to do against them (whereas God had previously been defending them).

It's the Lord Himself who will judge the Nations.

And it is also the Lord Himself who establishes these nations and leaders.

Tell me, is it better to be judged here on the earth, where temporary and worldly judgments may turn us from our evil ways and lead us to eternal life; or to be judged before the Throne of God in heaven, where He shall cast many into the eternal fire?

You seem to have a problem accepting worldy authority and governments, which judge people, as something that is NOT contrary to the workings of God in the world.

For example, a man murders someone and is condemned by a court of law. Thus he suffers worldy consequences and through the internal struggles of his own conscience and through the people in his life, he repents his evil deeds and sinful life and seeks out the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Normally we call this a good thing. But you seem to find this detestable because it is not the "Judgment of God."

[b]Nehemiah 9[/b]
30. "However, You bore with them for many years, And admonished them by Your Spirit through Your prophets, Yet they would not give ear. Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
31. "Nevertheless, in Your great compassion You did not make an end of them or forsake them, For You are a gracious and compassionate God.

33. "However, You are just in all that has come upon us; For You have dealt faithfully, but we have acted wickedly.

If we understand mercy then we know mercy triumphs over judgment because those who are in Christ are judged already. Just as it is that this world has been judged already and condemned. This world, every person, saint and sinner, IS ALREADY JUDGED through Christ ([b]John 3:18[/b]).

And this fact does not diminish the JUDGMENT TO COME, as it is destined for all men once to die and then the judgment. And again, [b]Eccl 11:3[/b], "and whether a tree falls toward the south or toward the north, wherever the tree falls, there it lies." Likewise, we are judged according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil during our time here on this earth, thus shall a man enter his eternal place -- either eternal joy or eternal torment as Christ has commanded ([b]Matthew 25[/b]).

It is my belief that the kingdom of God came with Jesus and with the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. Yet, there is THE Kingdom to come at the second appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[b]Matthew 4[/b]
17. From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

[b]Mark 1[/b]
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

[b]Matthew 12[/b]
28. But if I (Jesus) cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

[b]Luke 9[/b]
27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

As you will note, the kingdom of God declared in these previous verses is not exactly the same as the following:

[b]Acts 1[/b]
6. So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
7. He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8. but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

[b]Revelation 12[/b]
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So then there is a distinction between the "kingdom of Israel" as it shall come to pass according to prophecy, "the kingdom of God" at hand, and the "kingdom of God" to come.

I enjoy the way it is sung in the hymn,

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine,
O what a [b]foretaste[/b] of glory divine!

Because the Dominionists believe that Israel has no place in the plan of God since the Church of the New Testament was formed, the obvious question has been asked by them, WHY HAS ISRAEL TAKEN OVER PALESTINE? These theologians do not acknowledge that Israel will be restored to the land of promise by the hand of the Almighty. The Kingdom Now people apply the Old Testament promises to the Church, never to Israel

As I have previously mentioned,

[b]Romans 9[/b]
6. But it is not as though the word of God has failed.

[b]For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel[/b];

7. nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named."
8. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Again, here we see the clear distinction between the children of Israel according to the flesh and the children of Israel according to the promise.

So then, we must ask, if "The Kingdom Now people apply the Old Testament promises to the Church, [and] never to Israel"; who then is the true Israel or WHICH Israel are we talking about?

We must be aware, that the people of Israel, those according to the flesh, are not forsaken by God in this world -- but this is no indication of their eternal salvation. As there are yet prophecies to be fulfilled according to the covenant of God that shall come to pass concerning them.

To put it plainly, there are prophecies concerning the descendants of the Jewish nation and prophecies concerning the children of promise (who are Jew and Gentile alike, those who live by faith in Christ Jesus).