I live in the washingto dc area, and after being saved God has done His work in me through the Spirit. I have been attending a church, i do not want to name it, i would prefer to just desribe it. Let me say that for the first year of my relationship with Christ I was very excited about the church, I listened to 100's of the pastors sermons on a regular basis through an online source in which they are all available, from the first to the latest. I heard a sermon one day which troubled me, the pastor said that a professing Christian, saved by God, could spend a life in adultery, drunkeness, and sin with his eternity in heaven being secured. Basically faith in Christ covers all sins, which is true, but isn't the truth in the bible that faith in Christ frees us from sin? The first thing that popped into my head was, why would a new creature, with the Holy Spirit live a life in such a way, how can one be saved from sin while being enslaved to it?? Well I spoke to some fellow church goers and they stated that given his experience(30 years) and the level of the church with its board of members and elders examing everything(11,000 members), what he said was probably accurate. After spending more time in the scriptures I saw God speaking clearly to me about this matter through some of pauls letters and more specifically 1 John along with the gospels. Then by Gods grace, I was led to by a fellow brother to this website, and I have heard reidhead, ravenhill, wilkerson and others. As time passes on and I heard more of these godly men I have had difficulty attending the church and hearing the sermons, I dont know If i have become puffed up on the truths God has revealed to me or whether I am feeling the genuine anguish God feels about this church and others. No one weeps, no one cries, everyone is smiling all the time, I never hear sermons on conviction repentance and judgement, only a mention of it with constant message of grace. The air in the church is one of a social nature, not one of God fearing Christians, do not know it that makes much sense.Very rarely I hear things on the sinfulness of sin, condemnation, judgement and hell, nothing offensive. Never hear things on false converts, nothing trying to awaken or weed out those dead in the audience, as we all know, there are many in every church. The most sinful of people attend and walk out as they entered, no one trembles, none of the members of the church are called out and challenged with regard to whether or not they are in the faith. The pastor at times tells unbelievers to say a sinners prayer, and he then tells them that if they meant the prayer about Jesus coming into their lives they were now breathing eternally, I dont get this and I am a baby in Christ, a little more than a year in my rebirth. It makes me angry, like I said maybe I am puffed up, but I feel like something is missing, something is wrong. I spoke to this about an older church member and to my surprise, he was like yea so what, repentance and conviction is not needed for grace to come,just believe, a person can live as he chooses under grace,enslaved to sin or free, etc... Do not get me wrong, the sermons are informative and have much truth in them, I enjoy them, but I feel like people who go here have this sort of attitide, which is, say uhuh to various fundamental truths, agree here agree their and you are saved, nothing on brokeness and repentance and conviction and rebirth and the sanctification of the very Spirit of God,(only mentions of it) just say uhuh, uhuh, uhuh, read the bible come to church, be in the fellowship etc... Basically, agree on fundamental biblical truths,be aware of them, study them, live a Christian life etc.. but not much on the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of every man or woman of Christ. Kind of like how Paul stated, holding on to forms of religion, but denying its power. Can anyone relate, is there anywhere to go in this area to feel the Holy Spirit confront and visit you when you are hearing a sermon? or am I taking this too serious.
Revival churches in the washington dc area, or am I being to critical???
You, my friend have been awakened!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a sitdown with your pastor, maybe your pastor regrets that sermon, over time as we study and serve God we mature and change over time, Hopefully he sees now the error.
But if your pastor is teaching bad doctrine, you must exercise Rom 16:17
Depart from them.
You could look around for another church, pray and see If God reveals something to you.
If you have friends at your present church and do fellowship with them, you could make copys of some of the good sermons and pass them around, that is what I did and it helped one friend out of all of them, we both left the church we were at but we both love the old sermons and now we are on fire for God's word and helping others see the truth, you may never get many converts but the few you get will be in good company.
Im not from around the D.C. area so Im no help there.
Crossbearer8 said:
"I heard a sermon one day which troubled me, the pastor said that a professing Christian, saved by God, could spend a life in adultery, drunkeness, and sin with his eternity in heaven being secured. Basically faith in Christ covers all sins, which is true, but isn't the truth in the bible that faith in Christ frees us from sin? The first thing that popped into my head was, why would a new creature, with the Holy Spirit live a life in such a way, how can one be saved from sin while being enslaved to it??"
Praise God that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not your pastor. You are right that Jesus did not only came to deliver us from the penalty of sin, but He came to set us free from sin. To teach that you can live anyway that you like and make it into heaven is a false teaching. The bible clearly teaches that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Crossbearer 8 "I dont get this and I am a baby in Christ, a little more than a year in my rebirth. It makes me angry, like I said maybe I am puffed up, but I feel like something is missing, something is wrong."
It is a precious thing to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and be able to discern between truth and error.
I would ask the Lord for wisdom, to show you what you need to do. You need good solid teaching of the Word of God so that you may grow. I don't believe that the Lord will leave you in a Church where error is being taught. Continue to listen to men like David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill. Find a Church that teaches the whole council of God. Our flesh loves the outward blessings but despises the discipline of the Lord.
In His Love,
Mike
PRAISE GOD! Keep listening the the Holy Ghost! He will truly "guide you into all truth" (John 16:13) So many scriptures negate the preaching that you heard at that church. 1 John ch. 3 comes to mind. It makes it very clear who is a child of God and who is a child of the devil. The practice of sin is the test.
Another chapter to ponder is Romans 6. Verse 6 states: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.". It is my understanding that the Greek tense used for "is crucified" is a "done deal" a once and for all finished act! When we whole-heartedly accept with faith that our old man is truly dead, and we continue in that faith, that old man stays dead.
When I was a young Christian, someone tried to confuse me with the last few verses of Romans chapter 7: "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.". He tried to use those verses to support the idea that a Christian continues in a mixture of sin and godliness. When I got home, I read that scripture again . . . and then I kept reading:
Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Chapter 7 was simply describing the condition of human flesh without the Spirit of God! Within ourselves, we CANNOT "no way, no sir, no how" live a righteous life. There is no righteousness to be found within human beings! But if Jesus lives within us, how can we not be victorious over sin? Did he not conquer our sin on the cross?
The Christian life is a life of VICTORY! Victory over sin! It is not a victory that we personally win by any effort of our own. It is a victory that HE wins in and through us. It is His good pleasure to do so. We simply open the door by grace through faith, and let Him do what HE WANTS to do.
It is not a victory that makes you escape suffering and hardship on earth, but victory that keeps you holy in the midst of all of the suffering and hardship and temptation that comes with living on this planet.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
If God would preserve the people of Thessalonica "blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", would He not be a "respector of persons" to not offer the same life of victory to us?
I wish that I could help you with a church in that area, but the Lord WILL lead you.
God bless you!
I spent the first part of my christian life going from church to church and just staying in the word, ect... I read David Wilkerson's newsletters constantly and I read alot of Watchman Nee. We didn't have computers or the internet 20 years ago. The Lord is faithful though and knows just what you need when you need it. He'll feed you with the ravens if need be (spiritually speaking here). When your thirsty it's not hard to find water but I know what your saying what we get is not always ideal. Sometimes I feel like it would be great to attend TSC but than do I want to live in NYC, nope!
There is a ministry out of Richmond Virginia called "The Christian Tape Ministry". http://www.christiantapeministry.com/. this ministry is out of Richmond Virginia and there is a fellowship of believers there. I know that this would be a pretty good drive for you, but there is a conferenece that takes place usually the last week of June, called "The Christian Family Conference". This conference has been going on for a number of years and many of the teachers at these conferences actually ministered with T.Austin Sparks. Brother Stephen Kaung ministers a lot at these conferences and he worked with Watchman Nee for many years, and actually translated much of Brother Nee's materials into English. Go to the Christian Tape Ministry website and you can find out more information on this ministry.
Mike
Have you ever seen "Choice Book" racks around the city? You may want to contact them and ask them to direct you to a Bible Believing church. It used to be that Simon Schrock, who authored "One Anothering" supervised "Choice Books" in that area.
Simon Schrock is a very godly man who loves the LORD. I think he lives at Fairfax; he would be delighted to assist you. BTW, he looks like Abraham Lincoln! and has also been mistaken for Dr. Evertte Koop!
Blessings,
ginnyrose
hi, we are never going to find the perfect church..i would rather hear grace and love and joy all year because that exemplifies Jesus,who died so that all sin is covered or none. to pilot a ship upriver you do not need to know where the pitfalls(sand bars, bad currents etc.)are;you need to know where the channel is. Jesus' finished work and faith in this alone. pray for your pastor lest you grow hard and phareseeical can't spell...make a difference. jimp
Yea I thought of that, but I can sense that this is not something that he has departed from, he has reafirmed it through other statements less directly. I have tried that already with a few people, interesting you said that, I have been burning copies of various sermons and giving them to a few people, at one point I even considered giving hell best kept secret to the pastor but decided not to. And as far as waiting for God to reveal things, well, for one of faith there is no better path.
Our flesh loves the outward blessings but despises the discipline of the Lord.
Yea, and truthfully even a part of me does, but I reject it. The human part of me feels a sense of guilt for feeling this way about a church who does much in community as far as service is concerned, and offers good teaching on the Lord on various occasions. But the Spirit of truth stirs me up against it, If people want to live their lives asleep and dead, well it is up to them, but to see people do it, and do so with much ease while hearing the gospel at a church of Christ, well it stirs me up in a way which makes me want to cry out.
Amen brother! Keep that fire burning, and don't let anyone put it out. God has His hand on you.
Mike
When I was a young Christian, someone tried to confuse me with the last few verses of Romans chapter 7: "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.". He tried to use those verses to support the idea that a Christian continues in a mixture of sin and godliness. When I got home, I read that scripture again . . . and then I kept reading:Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.Chapter 7 was simply describing the condition of human flesh without the Spirit of God! Within ourselves, we CANNOT "no way, no sir, no how" live a righteous life. There is no righteousness to be found within human beings! But if Jesus lives within us, how can we not be victorious over sin? Did he not conquer our sin on the cross?
Yes, he used much of romans to back his sermon, he used some of the Scriptures you have listed above, but reading one line without taking it into context with the entirety of the text, along with the entirity of the Scriptures is why these heretics develop. I read more into the first 8 chapters of Romans and God revealed it clearly. But honestly, I feel, and let me say the way I feel is often wrong, but nonetheless I feel that people(like this man) who talk grace out of context are those who are using grace as an occasion of the flesh, and are hoping that when they trample on it through their indulgences that they will escape Gods wrath. People like this often want others to be like them, and just as pigs wallow in filth with other pigs so do men who trample over grace want others to share in this as well. I thank you all very much for your responses, and feel encouraged by all your words.
The Lord is faithful though and knows just what you need when you need it. He'll feed you with the ravens if need be (spiritually speaking here). When your thirsty it's not hard to find water but I know what your saying what we get is not always ideal. Sometimes I feel like it would be great to attend TSC but than do I want to live in NYC, nope!
Wow, that was so put so well, and it so depicts my life, in my hunger to know Him He has, with the ravens as you say, brought me all sorts of insight and food of the Spirit through sermons on websites from various sources etc... When you say TSC is that Time Square Church, does wilkerson still preach there? Might be worth the 3 hour drive from time to time.
AbideinHim wrote:
There is a ministry out of Richmond Virginia called "The Christian Tape Ministry". http://www.christiantapeministry.com/. this ministry is out of Richmond Virginia and there is a fellowship of believers there. I know that this would be a pretty good drive for you, but there is a conferenece that takes place usually the last week of June, called "The Christian Family Conference". This conference has been going on for a number of years and many of the teachers at these conferences actually ministered with T.Austin Sparks. Brother Stephen Kaung ministers a lot at these conferences and he worked with Watchman Nee for many years, and actually translated much of Brother Nee's materials into English. Go to the Christian Tape Ministry website and you can find out more information on this ministry.Mike
thanks you very much, I will definitely look into it :-)
ginnyrose wrote:
Have you ever seen "Choice Book" racks around the city? You may want to contact them and ask them to direct you to a Bible Believing church. It used to be that Simon Schrock, who authored "One Anothering" supervised "Choice Books" in that area.Simon Schrock is a very godly man who loves the LORD. I think he lives at Fairfax; he would be delighted to assist you. BTW, he looks like Abraham Lincoln! and has also been mistaken for Dr. Evertte Koop!
Blessings,
ginnyrose
Never heard of the man,I will surely look into it, and thank you very much!
jimp wrote:
hi, we are never going to find the perfect church..i would rather hear grace and love and joy all year because that exemplifies Jesus,who died so that all sin is covered or none. to pilot a ship upriver you do not need to know where the pitfalls(sand bars, bad currents etc.)are;you need to know where the channel is. Jesus' finished work and faith in this alone. pray for your pastor lest you grow hard and phareseeical can't spell...make a difference. jimp
The perfect church, on earth one will not exist, such perfection is only above. Nonetheless, knowing Gods holiness, His justified wrath and judgement on sin and all of us who have indulged in it truly gives us an understanding and appreciation of grace and the cross. Grace after repentance and repentence after conviction, if the church neglects this many of its dead visitors will walk leave as they entered, and those members attending who are not saved are not broken to repentance. When you are truly under grace the wrath judgement and righteousness of God only makes grace all the more appreciated and understood. The truth of God in its entirity is food and life to the man who has a relationship with God, the idolatrous one only cares to enjoy and partake in the choice words which suit his fleshiness. And as far as being a pharisee, well to tell you the truth I care more of people being broken to pieces and saved that people being comfortable, happy, untested and dead.
Crossbearer8 wrote:
The Lord is faithful though and knows just what you need when you need it. He'll feed you with the ravens if need be (spiritually speaking here). When your thirsty it's not hard to find water but I know what your saying what we get is not always ideal. Sometimes I feel like it would be great to attend TSC but than do I want to live in NYC, nope!
Wow, that was so put so well, and it so depicts my life, in my hunger to know Him He has, with the ravens as you say, brought me all sorts of insight and food of the Spirit through sermons on websites from various sources etc... When you say TSC is that Time Square Church, does wilkerson still preach there? Might be worth the 3 hour drive from time to time.
Yes, Times Square Church is where I was referring to. David Wilkerson, has been such a blessing in my life. I have been so blessed by his newsletter and now I just read it online.
Here is the information on service times, directions, parking ect.. You might find this will fill that need in your life even if you just visit from time to time. I have heard that people drive for miles to attend their services.
[url=http://www.tscnyc.org/schedule_of_services.php] Times Square Church weekly service schedule
Looking back that was a faith building experience for me in many ways. I had to hang onto what little the Lord allowed me which was no small thing at all. Most of the time a few words from God is all we need, sometimes more but He is faithful. I will pray that the Lord fills this need in your life.
Wow, thanks again Rebecca! God bless you
And as far as being a pharisee, well to tell you the truth I care more of people being broken to pieces and saved that people being comfortable, happy, untested and dead.
Brother, you're not at all being a Pharasee by obeying Christ's call to "beware of false prophets" (Matt. 7).
That chapter begins with the often quoted:
Matthew 7:1 ¶Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
A hypocrite (actor - as were the pharasees) continues in his own indulgences of sin while condemning others. Many of those "mega-churches" that only focus on grace love and joy (to the exclusion of wrath for sin and remorse and true repentance) still have certain pet "motes" that they still condemn in others. They would be appalled and vocal about such sins as child molestation, brutal and cruel murders, abortion, homosexuality (sometimes) . . . and perhaps a few other sins that are not acceptable to their religious peer groups yet the beams of adultery, drunkenness, fornication, "politically correct" theft . . .etc, they "cover" with the banner of unconditional grace (no repentance required).
How can they judge the cruel murderer or child molester while continuing to commit adultery or fornication? They are altogether missing what Jesus meant by "judge not"!
Yet in the same chapter, Jesus clearly commands us:
Matthew 7:15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
When you see evil fruits . . . you are to stay away.
The greatest difficulty of being a part of such a church is the fact that your own personal work in the Kingdom can get poisoned. When you witness to someone, and they see Christ in your life, and they want to know more, and you start leading them in the right direction . . . then they visit your church, and they hear messages that go in another direction . . . they will get confused, and possibly destroyed.
A "gospel" that doesn't involve remorse for sin and turning from sin is what Paul called "another gospel"
Galatians 1:6 ¶I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
THANK GOD for the glorious gospel that convicts the sinner of his sin and leads him to repentance and cleansing from sin!
God bless you, brother.
Dear Crossbearer8,
I would recommend Pastor Carter Conlon's Message " Run For Your Life " . He is the Pastor for Times Square Church in NYC.
It is under Carter Conlon Audio Sermons page 7 here on SI.
hi,i can understand your zeal for holiness and seeing it demonstrated in the sermons of your pastor. Len ravenhill was driven by this same vision but was tempered by great love for Jesus and people. we all think that we have a duty to preach sin, wrath,hell,holiness etc. we are to preach the gospel of the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross and invite people to come and DIE. we can not clean up live(bios) people. the Holy Spirit is the covictor of sin. if your life is hid with Christ in God you will change as a caterpillar changes into a butterfly. it is with joy that you draw waters out of the wells of salvation and in that day shall you say praise the Lord.remember that God saved you out of the pit:not preaching ,not fear which has torment. only through faith in Jesus. please read Micah 6:8 i only write this to you because i saw myself 45 yrs ago in your writings. jimp
jimp wrote:
hi,i can understand your zeal for holiness and seeing it demonstrated in the sermons of your pastor. Len ravenhill was driven by this same vision but was tempered by great love for Jesus and people. we all think that we have a duty to preach sin, wrath,hell,holiness etc. we are to preach the gospel of the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross and invite people to come and DIE. we can not clean up live(bios) people. the Holy Spirit is the covictor of sin. if your life is hid with Christ in God you will change as a caterpillar changes into a butterfly. it is with joy that you draw waters out of the wells of salvation and in that day shall you say praise the Lord.remember that God saved you out of the pit:not preaching ,not fear which has torment. only through faith in Jesus. please read Micah 6:8 i only write this to you because i saw myself 45 yrs ago in your writings. jimp
The concern is not with myself, God has taken a hold of me and He will finish the work He started. I say these things out of concern and anguish for others, If one sees what I see and hears what I hear at this place of worship they could understand the urgency and frustration. I write these things because I see dead churchgoers all around me, like I said, makes me want to cry out.
Crossbearer8 wrote:
The perfect church, on earth one will not exist, such perfection is only above.
Matt 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
We are told here that we shall be perfect. Is this on this earth or in heaven?
Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Jesus tells this man if he wants to be perfect know sell all he has and give it to the poor. So by this verse we can be perfect know on this earth.
Matt 19:26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
We might find it hard to believe that we can be perfect but with God all things are possible.
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus came onto this earth to save us from sin this sinfullness we are born with is the root cause of us being unperfect. Jesus shall save his people from sin so that we can presented to him as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.
Eph 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church , not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
I know it looks impossible because the church is in a terrible mess. But he is a God of the impossible he can and will do it.
Keep your head up cross bearer there is hope. Don't get frustrated or angry but rejoice as God will show his mighty hand again when he comes to breathe life back into the church.
murrcolr wrote:
Crossbearer8 wrote:
The perfect church, on earth one will not exist, such perfection is only above.
Matt 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
We are told here that we shall be perfect. Is this on this earth or in heaven?
Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Jesus tells this man if he wants to be perfect know sell all he has and give it to the poor. So by this verse we can be perfect know on this earth.
Matt 19:26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
We might find it hard to believe that we can be perfect but with God all things are possible.
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus came onto this earth to save us from sin this sinfullness we are born with is the root cause of us being unperfect. Jesus shall save his people from sin so that we can presented to him as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.
Eph 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church , not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
I know it looks impossible because the church is in a terrible mess. But he is a God of the impossible he can and will do it.
Keep your head up cross bearer there is hope. Don't get frustrated or angry but rejoice as God will show his mighty hand again when he comes to breathe life back into the church.
1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we are decieving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
You are taking that out of context. This perfection will be someday, once our corruptible self will be clothed with incorruptable self, but never in the the flesh, perfection in the flesh was seen and will only be seen in one, which is Christ. To say one is freed from the slavery of sin is different then to say you are perfect and without blemish.
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good? Jesus asked him. No one is good but One-God."
Even a Christian reborn in the Spirit is full of blemish and sin in the presence of a Holy God.
Yes your right every Christian that is reborn is full of blemishes and sin but there is a deeper work, a second blessing, Holiness, Christian perfection. This is the difference between the church today and the church of yesteryears.
The secret of it all. “Perfect love” and this is surely possible, but only possible when Jesus Christ Himself—God Himself Who is love— comes to dwell in our hearts.
1 John 4 v 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Is Love enough will it banish sin from my life
1 Cor 13
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Perfect Love drives out a the vast army of sins.
Love never fails.
To me to live is Christ”—and Christ is love
It cannot be doubted that the bible expects some sort of perfection that perfection is Love.
Is there any men who testify to this perfection here is one testimony.
Samuel Brengle Helps to Holiness
He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. It was a heaven of love that came into my heart. I walked out over Boston Common before breakfast weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I loved the sparrows, I loved the dogs, I loved the horses, I loved the little urchins on the streets, I loved the strangers who hurried past me, I loved the heathen -- I loved the whole world.
Do you want to know what holiness is? It is pure love. Do you want to know what the baptism of the Holy Ghost is? It is not a mere sentiment. It is not a happy sensation that passes away in a night. It is a baptism of love that brings every thought into captivity to the Lord Jesus (2 Cor. x. 5); that casts out all fear (I John iv. 18); that burns up doubt and unbelief as fire burns tow; that makes one "meek and lowly in heart" (Matt. xi. 29); that makes one hate uncleanness, lying and deceit, a flattering tongue and every evil way with a perfect hatred; that makes Heaven and Hell eternal realities; that makes one patient and gentle with the froward and sinful; that makes one "pure ... peaceable ... easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy" (Jas. iii. 17); that brings one into perfect and unbroken sympathy with the Lord Jesus Christ in His toil and travail to bring a lost and rebel world back to God. God did all that for me, bless His holy name!
It's possilbe, it is possible.
murrcolr wrote:
Yes your right every Christian that is reborn is full of blemishes and sin but there is a deeper work, a second blessing, Holiness, Christian perfection. This is the difference between the church today and the church of yesteryears.The secret of it all. “Perfect love” and this is surely possible, but only possible when Jesus Christ Himself—God Himself Who is love— comes to dwell in our hearts.
1 John 4 v 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Is Love enough will it banish sin from my life
1 Cor 13
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Perfect Love drives out a the vast army of sins.
Love never fails.
To me to live is Christ”—and Christ is love
It cannot be doubted that the bible expects some sort of perfection that perfection is Love.
Is there any men who testify to this perfection here is one testimony.
Samuel Brengle Helps to Holiness
He gave me such a blessing as I never had dreamed a man could have this side of Heaven. It was a heaven of love that came into my heart. I walked out over Boston Common before breakfast weeping for joy and praising God. Oh, how I loved! In that hour I knew Jesus and I loved Him till it seemed my heart would break with love. I loved the sparrows, I loved the dogs, I loved the horses, I loved the little urchins on the streets, I loved the strangers who hurried past me, I loved the heathen -- I loved the whole world.
Do you want to know what holiness is? It is pure love. Do you want to know what the baptism of the Holy Ghost is? It is not a mere sentiment. It is not a happy sensation that passes away in a night. It is a baptism of love that brings every thought into captivity to the Lord Jesus (2 Cor. x. 5); that casts out all fear (I John iv. 18); that burns up doubt and unbelief as fire burns tow; that makes one "meek and lowly in heart" (Matt. xi. 29); that makes one hate uncleanness, lying and deceit, a flattering tongue and every evil way with a perfect hatred; that makes Heaven and Hell eternal realities; that makes one patient and gentle with the froward and sinful; that makes one "pure ... peaceable ... easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy" (Jas. iii. 17); that brings one into perfect and unbroken sympathy with the Lord Jesus Christ in His toil and travail to bring a lost and rebel world back to God. God did all that for me, bless His holy name!
It's possilbe, it is possible.
I strongly disagree, the closer God draws me to Him, the more He reveals Himself to me,the more sinful things God purges from me, the more I feel aware of how wretched I still am and will be. I can relate to Paul's take of this matter, that is having Gods Spirit in a fleshly body bound by sin.
Romans 7:14-25
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
What is then the perfection of which man is capable while he dwells in a corruptible body? It is the complying with that kind command, "My son, give me thy heart." It is the "loving the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind." This is the sum of Christian perfection: It is all comprised in that one word, Love. The first branch of it is the love of God: And as he that loves God loves his brother also, it is inseparably connected with the second: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:" Thou shalt love every man as thy own soul, as Christ loved us. "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:" These contain the whole of Christian perfection.
Taken from John Wesley On Perfection
[url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/serm-076.stm]John Wesley On Perfection