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Pub Situation

J
joeSOC

Dear Team,

I have had some excellent help from this forum in the past. Once again I come to this online community for answers or perhaps help to analyze my response to a question put forth by my colleague at work. The Analysis has to be done through a biblical world view

So the question is (I paraphrase to the closest accuracy )

"Hi would you like to come to the pub on thursday, as a friend of mine from church is playing a gig there"

Gig refers to a song in above context.

Background information
I will attempt to present facts and be as objective as possible without judging.

1. My colleague goes to church on Sunday
2. My colleague has no issues going to pubs
3. My colleague drinks alcohol.
4. Both of us work in Melbourne Australia.
5. I hate pubs, Alochol ( if there was a way to convert alcohol to electricity i would do it)
6. I do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)
7. I goto church on Sunday
8. It is my desire to please the Lord Jesus Christ
9. I do not believe the Lord would have me goto Pubs
9. my colleague and i are the only two Christians in my workplace.
10. I am vulnerable to the opposite sex.

Having now established some context my response to the question was

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

This response was given in presences of my colleague and several others who do not believe in the christian worldview.

Is there anything wrong with my response. If so please give me reasons.

Also do the following response provider a better way

1. " I don't like to go there"
2. " Get a grip man what are you doing !"
3. " Jesus would not like it if I went there ".

M
Miccah

Great questions brother.

I would have to say that if you are being lead by the Lord to not attend this event, do not attend. But to say that you would not go into a pub because "you are a Christian reminds me of some of these...

[u][b]Matthew 9:10-14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”


Are you sure that the Lord is keeping you away, or would it be some sort of religiousity in you? Compare yourself to scripture. Also...


[u][b]Luke 18:9-14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; [b]for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/b]


All of this being said... you have begun to state your faith in the Lord through this situation. Let the Lord continue to work through you. This doesn't mean that you have to attend anything that is allowing sin to be present, but only that His ways are higher then our ways. Maybe the appointment IS devine.?.?.

Blessings brother.


E
enid

First, this is the type thread that will generate much interest.

Also, from scripture, people will point out that is is both ok and not ok to go.

However, let us look at scripture.

Romans 14v21, 'It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine, not to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.'

Also in verse 23 of the same chapter it says, 'But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith, for whatever is not from faith is sin.'

We need to follow our own conviction, regardless of the convictions of others.

I can see people saying, well, Jesus dined with sinners.

We're not Jesus.

I don't see how compromise will bring people to Christ. We might bring them to a building where the church worships, but that does not mean we have brought them to Christ.

Besides, how does a 'Christian' singing in a pub bring glory to God?

Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God, 1 Cor 10v31.

God bless.

D
dohzman

I understand where you're coming from personally. As long as being in that environment doesn't cause you or other fellow christians who know you to stumble into sin or harm a weaker christians conscience. That said, when Canton had several bars in the downtown area several of us would go out street witnessing, as a result of this we were invited into one or more bars for a debate, by the owners often times none the less. We wrestled over this matter long and hard and came to the conclusion that Jesus went where He was invited. We never stayed to socialize but went in to engage thoughs who were there and to answer questions.
As to your response, you have to meet the Lord on the battlefield of your own heart and walk according to two rules 1) conscience, that needs protected and nurtured according to biblical knowledge and prayer 2) Faith, what ever is not of faith is not pleasing to God and is sin. Now Faith is a strange and wonderful virtue and gift from God and is closely related to conscience in it exercise, so walk in faith.

I believe you did right for you. I know also that "worldview" is the new christian catch word passed about these days, I wouldn't so much as worry about how it will look to others as how Jesus will see(weigh) my actions. God Bless bro daryl

S
sermonindex

9. I do not believe the Lord would have me goto Pubs

10. I am vulnerable to the opposite sex.

These are the two things that stand out to me. I could debate OSAS w/you, but thats not the focus of your question.

First, if you believe the Lord would not have you go into a bar... then to do otherwise would be to sin against your own conscience. Paul had a lot to say about this in the context of meat sacrificed to idols. If you can not do it as unto the Lord, than you should not do it.

Secondly, I commend you on your honesty about the opposite sex. If going to the bar would put you in a situation where your eyes may wander and even worse... then you know you should not be there. If your right offends thee... cut it off. If it would cause you to sin (lust) then you need to avoid it at all costs. Women in bars generally tend to dress to show off the goods. You know that as much as I do. Stay away.

Yes, Jesus dined with sinners. But why? Was it to participate in a good time and to party? No! He went there to be a witness and to teach them, and thats exactly what He did. Your friend is not going there to do this, he's going there for a couple drinks and to fit in with the guys from work.

I'm all for going into a bar if the purpose is to reach the lost. I'm not in favor at all for going into bars just to fit in and have a good time. If you do... you will fall, and fall hard.

Take a stand, my friend.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Hi Joe...how are you? Great question and one I can fully relate to where you are coming from. I am from Scotland and as you probably know, Scotland has a pub culture. In fact, they really do not trust someone who does not drink. So, if you become a Christian in Scotland, you get ostrazised. Its part of "counting the cost," before one comes to Christ, you know that you will lose all of your friends, become weird to your workmates, and potentially lose your family(I was a Catholic so I experienced some of this too) The challenge is to be completely authentic. Not some stereotypical Christian. One young man in my home town carried his Bible everywhere, and it just resulted in people staying away from him. You can do things with the best of intentions and get the opposite result of what you were looking for. I belive that he thought he was doing somethng noble, but it only helped to further alienate him from the people of "the world." Now, if the Lord specifically instructed him to do that, then that would be different. What I found was that by the mere fact of not drinking and going to pubs(I spent my whole life in pubs, got banned from my first pub at 16, and not for being 16 ) that I was a witness for Christ. One time, a very old friend was getting engaged and of course had an engagement party at a local pub. I went there for the party, drank fresh orange and lemonade and got many questions as to why I was not drinking. Great opportunity to witness. So, one offs and weddings and so on can be a great witnessing tool. If you have a problem with girls, find one quick and get married :)Someone once said that it was better to get married than to burn with lust, brother Paul I believe. Just be authentic Joe, as long as your authentically saved :)............brother Frank

J
JoanM

You told us the truth of why you don’t want to go or feel this conflict. Just tell them whatever the truth is.

I’d like to hear him play. Like the idea of going with you. But I really hate alcohol, what it does to people, what it has done to me in the past. (Tell him. Men know about alcohol and women, right?). Maybe it’s a particular weakness on my part but I can’t avoid seeing, as the night progresses, how it hurts people. And they don’t even know it. I know it would hurt my enjoyment of hearing him play (whatever). When I said, " I am not coming, because I am a Christian " I didn’t know how to explain it without ….. Freedom from all kinds of stuff that goes on in bars is so precious to me, part of my relationship with God/Jesus. Who know what will happen as I grow. I didn’t say all this (whatever you end up saying) because (you also value your relationship to him). I can really loose it sometimes and I want to stick as close to what I sense and know of Christ as I can. I sure hope you understand.

[b]Ok so maybe men don’t talk that way[/b]. But you can tell the truth about you somehow. Not the theology, the truth as it is alive in you so far. SO FAR.

Sounds like God may have it in His heart to use you and it’s time for you to get even clearer on sharing Truth and Grace. Truth in Love. Wonderful.

I can’t shake the feeling that God will “invade” the Pubs in Scotland (see Greenock Conference). Or at least those that go to pubs. Maybe you would go and witness that? :-) Maybe they will web-cast testimonies.

Do we get to hear how it goes so we can learn?


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi joe...

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

Is there anything wrong with my response. If so please give me reasons.

Also do the following response provider a better way

1. " I don't like to go there"
2. " Get a grip man what are you doing !"
3. " Jesus would not like it if I went there ".

How about this response:

"Thank you for the invitation, but I cannot attend because alcohol is incompatible with my beliefs as a Christian. Perhaps we can meet somewhere else next time?"

It is possible to be honest with an individual without somehow (by our words or attitude -- even if done with integrity) making us look like "mindless" or almost arrogant religious clones. I am reminded of [url=http://www.lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008550/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/Discipleship_Teachings/How_To_Be.aspx]a picture[/url] on one of Keith Green's "wisetracts" that my mom used to have. It showed an apparently zealous believer -- so zealous that people literally ran from him.

Shortly after I met the Lord, I had a friend who went "door-to-door" with me sharing the "Good News." Our congregation had set aside Sunday night as a time to go out in pairs and bring the Gospel to our city. My friend, a guy much older than me (I was a teen) had come from a loose background of sin (sex, drugs and rock-n-roll). At one of the houses that we knocked on the door, I began to share my faith. After this person kindly listened for a while, this person thanked me but replied that they were already Christians. My friend immediately jumped in. He said something to the effect of, "[i]Christians? Is that a television in your house? You watch television and movies? You aren't a Christian! You are deceived by the devil![/i]" The person was immediately offended, turned red in the face, criticized our attitude, asked us to leave and then slammed the door. As we walked off, my friend said, "[i]It's okay brother. We're just being persecuted for righteousness[/i]."

The point is that our purpose should not be to offend those around us. The truth of God's Word has power. It will offend those who are already closed to the truth. But to those whose hearts are prepared...or who have a stirring and longing within their souls, the Good News has the power to draw them to Christ.

Paul proclaimed to the believers that he helped to cultivate, as he was leaving them for what would be the last time, that he had not failed to declare "[i]all the counsel of God[/i]." Ray Comfort, in his message [i]Hell's Best Kept Secret[/i] (available here on SermonIndex), illustrates the fact that people can't understand the "Good News" unless they realize the "Bad News" (namely, that this world is lost, dying and on its way to Hell).

However, the problem with much of the preaching today (especially open air preaching) is that most people just don't want to stick around to hear it. They are turned off in the beginning -- often by our manners. While we mean it with pure love, they see it as mere [u]criticism[/u]. There is a bridge to such individuals. In the Word, we read that people -- including prostitutes, tax collectors and even children -- followed Jesus. What did He do to attract them? Were His Words simply a constant barrage of criticism that were true? Or were the people convinced that this man cared for them?

I learned a long time ago that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Anyone can discipline or correct a person. But when that person knows that the discipline or correction comes from a heart of love, then it has the power to break pre-built down walls of the heart and mind.

A church that I attended when I was an undergrad had a vibrant bus ministry that I started. We went from 0 kids to over 450 kids! Yet I was extremely strict. I preached to these children (mostly from poor homes or government projects) -- and wouldn't put up with any disruption during the meeting. It was chaotic in the sense that it grew so large so fast. Yet the meetings were wonderful! Children from the streets would weep during our times of worship and prayer! One day, many of the helpers (bus drivers, bus monitors and assistants) spoke up in one of our meetings. They complained that I was "too strict" with the rules. They complained that many of the children already get criticized or disciplined at home, so they didn't need it at Church. I explained that children are very perceptive. They know the difference between discipline and correction that comes from a heart of love -- and discipline and correction that comes from a heart of arrogance or frustration. To this day, many of those children (now teens or even adults) are still serving God -- along with their parents!

Whenever we share our faith or even our convictions about what we understand (or think we understand) from the Word of God, we should always mingle our words with the overwhelmingly apparent love of God. And why should this surprise us? Isn't this the way that the Lord deals with us individually? He doesn't treat us with "shock and awe" (except, perhaps, as a final measure). Matthew 11:28-30 says that Christ is "meek and gentle at heart." He constantly bids us to come unto Him. And in Him we find a peace that passes all understanding.

Brother, when you speak with your friend, bear this in mind. There is a way to be truthful...with tact. In other words, you can share your faith without obviously offending your hearer. The world holds a stereotype of Christians; and sadly, Christians often live up to that stereotype. We aren't all social failures who are parrots/puppets of our pastors. We certainly lay down our lives as dung when compared to the surpassing knowledge of friendship with Christ. We are new creatures...but we are still married to our wives, live in our temporary citizenship, hold our jobs, provide for our families. The transformation is in how we view and react with this world. But this can be illustrated by love.

Anyway, you are in my prayers, brother. May the Lord provide you with the precise words to use in order to win over those around you!

:-)

*P.S. - It would be easy for us to walk around while shouting to everyone, "[i]You're going to go to Hell...because of your alcohol! You are going to burn for Eternity because of your televisions...and movies...and books...and magazines...and clothes![/i] Do you see how arrogant that this sort of speech might come across. Yes, it could strike fear in the heart of unbelievers. However, I think that most people would view such a preacher with a "my way or the highway" arrogance -- if his love was not completely apparent. Besides, it isn't all of these things that take the world to Hell. It is the fact that they simply ignore or reject Jesus Christ. All of the rest is primary only in the sense that sin separates men from God. But an attempt at holy living still does not result in salvation. We are only saved because we believe in and cling to the Lord Jesus Christ.

S
sermonindex

I hate to even bring this up... but we're talking about being honest and keeping it real. So let's be honest: alcohol is [b]not[/b] prohibited in the Bible.

Now, that said, drunkeness and revelry [b]are[/b] incompatible with Christianity. So perhaps a more scripturally honest way to say it would be as follows:

"Thank you for the invitation, but I cannot attend because drunkeness and revelry is incompatible with my beliefs as a Christian. Perhaps we can meet somewhere else next time?"

I'll probably be accused of nit picking... but it's not honest at all to say that alcohol is not compatible with Christianity because no where in scripture is that ever stated.

If we're gonna call for truth... lets have some truth.

Krispy

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Krispy...

I wouldn't "nitpick" with that -- because I agree. I certainly believe that the "wine" mentioned in the Bible was fermented, because there was simply no means to prevent fermentation (and grape juice begins fermentation within 24-72 hours of juicing).

Of course, there is an interesting case against man-made alcohols (like those that are brewed or alcohols and liquors that are created by artificial means meant to enhance, speed up or increase the power of the alcohol). But regardless, the "sin" in question is drunkeness. I suppose that it would be interesting to consider just when "drunkeness" begins. It would take quite a bit of natural wine to get a person drunk versus "enhanced" drinks like one would expect to drink at a pub (enhanced beers, vodkas, and other liquors). Whereas even children in Europe are accustomed to drinking wine during meals, this is a far cry from going to a pub and paying money for a drink created to propel the drunken effect.

Myself? I am quite certain that drinking wine is permissible according to Scripture. Yet I don't drink. I just don't like the smell or taste of fermented fruit. I don't think that I could develop a taste for wine -- especially since we have technology available today that prevents the fermentation process (which was unavailable in Biblical times). Now a bottle of fresh concord grape juice or pomegranite juice (like the Pom brand available at the grocery store) -- that is some GREAT stuff! I would take that over a glass of wine anyday! Of course, I wouldn't pass judgment a person who did take an occasional glass of wine either.

I agree that there is a way that isn't quite so confrontational. Moreover, I agree with you that if our brother is convinced that entering any establishment that serves liquor is inappropriate, he can politely explain his position with unoffensive tact. Who knows? Perhaps the hearer would be inclined to search himself and his own beliefs after such a statement?

:-)

P
PaulWest

Let's push all hermeneutics aside for a moment.

Steve, brother, can I ask you plainly why you drink? You may be thinking it's none of my business to ask this question, and you are probably feeling a bit defensive right now, but I want to assure you this is not an attack. I just have a few things to ask you, things that I believe deserve your serious attention. Brother, in humility and openess please try to consider the following: Is enjoying an occasional drink - even behind closed doors and without getting drunk - really worth forfeiting the authority you [i]could have[/i] with God if you didn't drink? Give this serious attention. Think of how much you lose out, brother, think of all the wisdom and unction in ministry you unknowingly relinquish because of this vice, think of how no serious man or woman of God will receive anything you have to say on holiness and sanctification and self-denial once they realize you drink (even in private), and think of how the Holy Spirit will put checks in everyone's spirit once you begin publically condoning alcohol consumption as a Christian (whether it's prohibited in the Bible or not). Brother, you cannot argue these things; this is reality.

When a man who professes Christ in the same breath also professes to consume alcohol and then [i]defends[/i] his drinking before other saints, he loses any unction he had in the Word and the Lord will not bring him to the deeper levels of His school. He bottoms out and meanders indefinately in an area where he no longer has divine influence upon other men. It has been my observation, and the observation of other saints down throughout history that God does not invest His power in men who drink alcohol as a form of personal recreation. Indeed, alcohol may be permissable, but this doesn't mean it's expedient in God's eyes. Alcohol may be permissable, but this doesn't mean it's beneficial to your progressing in maturity. Alcohol may be permissable, but it doesn't mean God is required to fill you with His power on account of it. The question, therefore, is permission versus expediency (I Cor. 6:12).

Now, the withdrawl of the authority of God in ministry is decidedly not expedient to a believer, and we understand that this sort of thing not only pertains to those who drink alcohol, but to any other type of vice the Holy Spirit refuses to sanction in the lives of those who would go onto the more glorious levels in the knowledge of God's grace. Sure, such men continue to learn about the Bible and participate in heated apologetics and polemics and politics and whatever else, but this earthly realm is exactly where they'll stay for the rest of their lives.

Brother, I say this in love, having followed your threads defending alcohol consistently for years now. I understand it's a self-fulfilling vice, otherwise you would have given it up years ago, like most do when they become apprehended by God. Others for whatever reason continue to cling to it, thinking they too can indulge in moderation and "have their cake and eat it too" spiritually, but it never pans out, and they always end up paying the price. God, Who is no respector of persons, doesn't disown you as a child, but the sad truth is that He doesn't use you either. Not in transforming lives, not at the level of influence He originally desired for your life. Right now, you're probably thinking about all the people you've influenced for Christ in the past, at home and in this forum over the years, and you think you've done pretty good. You feel decently used by God despite all I've said. This may be true, but I am speaking of an intimacy and an authority in God that is on a whole other level.

Brother, take this for what it's worth. Drinking alcohol and naming the Name of Christ doesn't cause me look any lower or love you less as a brother, but it does sadden me. Because I know with your zeal and boldness and in the open integrity you constantly demonstrate here before the brethren, you could be a much greater weapon in the hands of God.

O brother, won't you take this issue to prayer, in light of this post?

As always, I remain your brother in the love of Christ.

Paul


J
JoanM


Thank you Chris for a keeper link. The words on that track were even better than the picture.

Are those tracts available? I could just e-mail a link but there is something about having a piece of paper in you hand. Do you know the original Finney the paraphrase came from?

M
murrcolr

g'day cobber


joeSOC wrote:

"Hi would you like to come to the pub on thursday, as a friend of mine from church is playing a gig there"

Was this a woman who was asking you to go?

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

So you think your are a wowser. Don't worry everything will be okay.

You could have just said "sorry I can't make it".

You don't have to give a explanation as to why you don't want to go.

A
AbideinHim

"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak" (1 Corinthians 8:9).

"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. (1 Cor.8: 11-13).

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Cor.10:31).

S
sermonindex

Hi brother Paul, would you add overweight people to those to whom the Lord will not invest His power? Serious question, because in the same sentence that they accused the Lord of being a winebibber(this is an insult aimed at people who drank alcoholic wine on a regular basis, the modern day word being "tippler.")they also accused Him of being a glutton. I am not convinced that you are right on what you say about Christians who occasionaly drink, but I think it is possible that you may be right. So, someone who is grossly overwieght, do you think they dishonor the Lord?....brother Frank

P
PaulWest

I am not convinced that you are right on what you say about Christians who occasionaly drink, but I think it is possible that you may be right.

Well, this is fine. It's not a doctrine or anything, just a pattern I have noticed. Most of the people who object to it are ones who drink occasionally anyhow (big surprise, eh?). The trap to not fall into is to understand that those who chose not to drink are not any closer to the Lord on account of their abstainment, but those who do drink are also not any closer to the Lord on account of their drinking. I just believe you come to a point in your walk where God puts His finger on drinking and tobacco and whatever else and says, "If you are going to come with Me any further, you will not need these things any more". And you can either let the Holy Spirit take them out of your life via mortification or you can continue to indulge, as God will not force you to comply. Every serious man and woman of God I know has been dealt the death blow to alcohol and/or smoking at some point in their walk. Don't ask me why - it's just a pattern we see in the Spirit's dealing with those He has called out to follow Him into deeper water.
So, someone who is grossly overwieght, do you think they dishonor the Lord?....

I see what you're getting at. I think this can fall into a slightly different category. If gluttony is the cause for their corpulence, and God has put His finger on their eating habits yet they refuse to reform...well, God is dishonored by their [i]disobedience[/i], and not the corpulence. The corpulence is the physical result of their disobedience, but in reality God had been dishonored long before they began putting on weight. Many awesome saints of God were overweight; three that come to mind are Henry, Spurgeon and Moody. Now, were these men obese by gluttony according to today's standards? Who knows. I think M. Henry may have had health issues - perhaps diabetes. He died in his fourties from a stroke. I think being grossly overweight is primarily a sign of overeating, but in rare cases it can also be glandular. There's factors invloved, but wheter it be drinking or eating, the fulcrum is obedience to the light you already have on the subject.

Many people who insist on their right to have an occasional drink or cigarette and then minister the Word of God to others have already been dealt with on those things - and have disobeyed God. And so God withdraws and they once again experience their "freedom", and now they ardently defend this freedom by pointing to the freedom verses in scripture.

in the same sentence that they accused the Lord of being a winebibber(this is an insult aimed at people who drank alcoholic wine on a regular basis, the modern day word being "tippler.")they also accused Him of being a glutton.

This argument doesn't work today. The next thing you can deduce if we follow your logic is that Jesus was also a stumbling block to others (He deliberatly was in this aspect), so let's not worry about being stumbling blocks either. You are welcome to follow His example in winebibbing and gluttony and being a stumbling block to religious people if you choose, but I will not, nor will I give occasion to those who are "without" to lay that claim against me. We have to remember that we are not the Lord, and there were certain things He did for a specific reason to level with sinners and confound the powers of darkness which I don't believe applies for us to emulate today. How do I know this? Well, Jesus was a winebibber, but the Holy Spirit to me expressly says "no" to winebibbing. The Holy Spirit also expressly says "no" to being a glutton, and He says this not only to me but to other men and women of God. He says the same about being a stumbling block, which I would be if I condoned winebibbing and gluttony here as a Moderator in the forums. It was the will of God for Jesus to do those things for that time and place and purpose, but expressly wrong for us to do them today by the will of the Holy Spirit. If anything, we are to be persecuted and mocked because [i]we are not[/i] winebibbers and gluttons and stumbling blocks! You've got it reversed, brother.

(edit) Hey Frank, just so you don't think I typed all this with a vindictive scowl, or I'm accusing you of gluttony and winebibbing:

:-D

You know I love you dearly, and honor your fellowship. I'd give you a big Christian hug right now if I could (even tho you don't like the Puritans, I guess I could still do it) :-P

Brother Paul

S
sermonindex

Gosh brother Paul, I thought you were angry and so on there with the "youve got it reversed brother," and so on. I was so glad to see the smiley faces. Actualy Paul, you could not deduce my stance by the questions that I asked. They are questions that will come at every Christian, once or many times in their lives. And, if you come from a drinking and smoking culture like Scotland or Russia or Australia, it is vital that we communicate our positions in love and in truth. To tell you the truth, if I did not agree with you, I think that I may have become defensive. :-) So, now for where I stand. I believe that I am totaly capable of taking the odd glass of wine, but, the decision to do so, especially in the places that I described where alcohol has caused untold devastation, could prove to be disaterous for my witness and for unbelievers observing me.I would say that also smoking is a very bad witness for Christians. And also to be obese shows a lack of self control and undealt with issues. I think you may go a little far in saying that the heavens are shut to these people and that ultimately God cannot use them. But I would agree that the level of dependency upon God, which truly determines our effectiveness for God, is diminished by people who smoke and drink and over-eat. For all the people who do that are getting a payoff by indulging in such behaviour. The anxious one who smokes or drinks to calm the nerves, is not living in the fullness of "be anxious for nothing," and is not living in the "peace that surpasses all understanding." The over-eater who is perhaps masking some emotional pain, or is bored, or simply greedy, is not finding all His needs met by His Lord and is displacing Him to a degree.

I would be interested in what you thought of C.S.Lewis who liked an occasional drink and smoke, yet whose writngs have been greatly used by the Lord.

Also the problem seems to be that people like C.S.lEWIS who was mightily used by the Lord despite their undeniable weknesses, can still be used more than the man who does none of those things but is proud. So, everything that flows from humility and surrender seems to be so sweet and from the Lord Himself. As an ex-alcoholic and drug addict, I was still a smoker for three years after coming to Jesus. No one had to tell me it was wrong, I knew it, right in the center of my heart I knew it. The Lord was so patient and kind, not one time rebuking it. I tried and failed a couple of times. I smoked two packs a day and had done for many years. Then one night, the Lord whispered into my heat"Frank, I want you to think about tomorrow without smoking." I sat down and thought about a whole day without smoking. It seemed like an impossibility. I knew without a doubt at that time I was enslaved. Then the Lord , very gently and with so much love whispered into my heart "Frank, if you do not smoke again tonight, you will never smoke again in your life." I stayed up till two in the morning, but did not smoke. That was 15 years ago.I have never smoked since. No withdrawels, nothing. No condemnation Paul, no rebuke from the Lord, simply a revelation and a conviction of my true state. I love the Lord Jesus. He knew where I came from and He knew where He was taking me and He was putting me back together piece by piece, with infinate patience and Love. So, if you are a smoker or drinker reading this, man, God loves you and wants what is best for you. I would just say, surrender to what you know to be true, you will never regret it and He will stand with you and enable you because you are His and He loves you. Perhaps we will hear testimony of God's delivering power and I know it will be with love. It is love that breaks the chains that bind us. It was love that caused Him to hang upon the tree for us. It was love that caused Stephen to cry out Father, forgive them and Love has conquered hell and the grave. When you consider that, know that God can deliver you from anything............brother Frank

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PaulWest

Yeah, brother, I figured you might take my response as being angry; we've got to be very careful with this medium when discussing volatile subjects like this one. Emoticons come in exremely helpful :)

Okay, let me try answer some of your points.

I think you may go a little far in saying that the heavens are shut to these people and that ultimately God cannot use them.

No, no. What I meant to say was that God can not use them as fully as He could if they were clean from drinking fermented intoxicants and broadcasting their freedom of it to others. When a Christian picks up a wine glass or a cigar he or she destroys their witness on many different levels, and puts themselves in a precarious potentiality for becoming a stumbling block to weaker Christians. God typically will not use them as He will a man or woman completely free from these vices. Which isn't to say they can't become famous or influential, only that they will not have the same power and authority on their ministry as a man or woman who is clean from these worldy vices.
I would be interested in what you thought of C.S.Lewis who liked an occasional drink and smoke, yet whose writngs have been greatly used by the Lord.

I'm glad you brought up C.S. Lewis because I feel he perfectly illustrates my point above. C.S. Lewis is not a man I consider mighty in God, and I think there were serious flaws in his theology, and His writings I find more allegorical and intelligent than Holy Spirit unction-filled and transforming. C.S. Lewis was primarily an apologist for Christianity, which is pretty much the norm for men who cling to worldly vices with one hand and Christ with the other.

Tozer had this to say about Lewis, and I totally agree:

[i]"He (C.S. Lewis) brings to the defense of historic Christianity a mind as clear as sunlight and an amazing ability to make the faith of our fathers appear reasonable. His weakness, or rather the weakness of his books, lies in an almost total absence of [b]moral urgency[/b]. One may read his arguments, admit their soundness and remain completely unmoved by the whole thing. In short, his books persuade the intellect but never get the conscience in trouble. For this reason, C.S. Lewis must remain an apologist; he can never be a reformer."[/i] (A.W. Tozer, from "We Need Sanctified Thinkers")

I agree that C.S. Lewis' ministry lacked the divine life-giving unction of God. I tell you that I have never met a man who professed Christ and who drank socially and/or recreationally who had the life-giving authority of God on his ministry. I've met plenty of men who could write very good and thought-provoking Christian articles and argue the faith and quote scripture prolifically, but who lacked that mysterious and elusive authority of the Holy Spirit which is able to irretrievably transform a person's life for the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven. The latter is a stamp of a broken man who has given up all and has nothing but the Lord to cling to, with both hands free to grip the cross.

I was still a smoker for three years after coming to Jesus. No one had to tell me it was wrong, I knew it, right in the center of my heart I knew it. The Lord was so patient and kind, not one time rebuking it. I tried and failed a couple of times. I smoked two packs a day and had done for many years.

O brother, there's no condemnation at all. I would be one enormous hypocrite were I to sit here and type otherwise. I used to smoke pot and drink like a fish (I lived in the ex-Soviet Union for 5 years and then served in the US Army another 4 - totally unsaved and debauched). The day I got saved, I never touched another cigarette. I had half a pack of Camels on my credenza in the army barracks and I remember crushing them up and tossing them in the wastebasket. But the six-pack of Heineken in the fridge I kept and drank. And I still ordered beer in the restaurants, and drank margaritas with Marissa in her apartment (my wife now, then my girlfriend). This was all going on six months after my conversion! Drinking but no smoking. And then, one day, I looked at the half-empty bottle of rum in my refrigerator and had an epiphany. The Holy Spirit brought it gently and lovingly to my spirit - no condemnation, like you said - that the drinking would have to go. I knew in my heart 6 months ago that it was wrong, but I continued all the same, enjoying the adult recreation and relaxation alcohol affords, and all the time wondering why God didn't take it away like He took away the smokes. I used this logic to leverage the thought that it was somehow okay still to drink, but when God finally stepped in and put His finger on it, I knew the ax had to come down forever and resoluely on that root or I would be in flagrant disobedience and perhaps miss out on God's best for my life. And so I did, and the Lord gave me the grace to just walk away and not look back. See, when God steps in, giving things up is not a burden or struggle. You just agree with Him and the Spirit mortifies, but when you try to do it on your own, you fight and struggle and fail and binge. It's true. This is why I tell people not to listen to me, but to take everything to God in prayer and see what He says. If He says something needs to change, just agree with him and admit you have no strength to change on your own. God is looking for agreement unto obedience, and once this happens His Spirit can operate in our lives to bring about the change He desires.

I am 100% convinced that a Christian who clings to alcohol is sabotaging God's absolute best for his life, not because of the alcohol per say, but because of their disobedience in not doing what they know they should obstructing God's further work of grace in their spirits. Ministers who love the Lord will not try to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit in this matter with someone who drinks - and if I am guilty of that, I truly repent and apologize to you and Steve - but I do count it my duty and labor of love to exhort my brethren in considering what they may be missing in exchange for their vices, whatever those vices may be.

Peace and love dear brother,

Paul

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KathleenP

Thankyou Frank and Paul for addressing these issues on this matter. I'm so glad the Lord has allowed them to come up as they are sensity to many saints and you have both experienced similar situations concerning tobacco and alcohol.

I, myself, after backsliding miserably for 15 years became a prisoner to both these vices as well as compulsive gambling.

I could not preach the gospel even after I came back to the Lord because these still had a hold on me. I so did not want to shame Jesus by speaking of salvation while I was still bound by things that did not bring Him glory.

Then one day, in the midst of His gentle dealings, I knew the time had come and that they had to go together. I stayed up until 1:30 am drinking and smoking my last.

That was 5 years ago and than I was free to speak the word and provide a wonderful testimony as well to others bound. I had no withdrawels whatsoever after a 12 pack of beer and 2 pack of cigarette a day habit. How I thank Him.

Dear brethren that are still under bondage, I attest to the fact that He is still a deliverer.

Kathleen

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A-Run


I am 100% convinced that a Christian who clings to alcohol is sabotaging God's absolute best for his life, not because of the alcohol per say, but because of their disobedience in not doing what they know they should obstructing God's further work of grace in their spirits. Ministers who love the Lord will not try to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit
Peace and love dear brother,

Paul

Hi

I completely agree with Bro. Paul on the things he mentioned.

Before I got saved, i was into the habit drinking for almost like 5-6years and was completely a slave to it. I just did not know how to get rid of it. But, once the Lord touched me I got completely delivered of it. And it's been more than 3years since.
And i do think the Lord wants everyone to get delivered from alcohol completely- the calling of a Christian is a higher one (one to abstain from all appearance of evil).

Now to answer the questions by 'joeSOC':
* I think you did the right thing by disagreeing to there. We always learn from experience of how to respond to them that are 'without'- the Lord teaches.
-I am probably the only one in the whole of my office who doesn't drink at all. And i strongly stand by my convictions in all circumstances. So, be encouraged brother, the Lord needs people everywhere and sometimes His witnesses are alone.
-Initially after i got saved, i used to avoid going to office parties etc... but gradually whenever i felt led i did go and the best part is I usually ended up testifying to my colleagues of the Lord and of His saving power- sometimes even to my higher officials and people from other countries too. But, i only go when i feel that God was permitting and leading me. I don't run anywhere wherever i feel like. I think we need to be careful in making our decisions, lest we end up messing up things.


[i][size=x-small]1 Corinthians 10:23 (NLT)[/size][/i]
[i][size=x-small]You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.[/size][/i]

(Apologize for the length of the post- didn't know how to keep it short) :oops:

S
sermonindex

What concerns me is all of the half and completely empty (or half full) glasses of wine which all of the 'elite' had in front of them during the Al Smith Memorial Fund Charity Dinner.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/17/sot.obama.dinner.cnn

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/17/sot.obama.dinner.cnn

...subsequently, they seemed to be quite amused with themselves. I would not suggest that many of them were drunk, but the nearest thesaurus words I could find are buzzed, feeling no pain, flying, glazed, or high.

The catholic church, mixed with politicians, and mixed with wine... :-(

I am not sure of my point, except that it was a little saddening to watch...and not very God glorifying.

I could be wrong; it has happened before.


P.S. If my 'Christian' friend invited me to this event, I would refuse knowing what I know now and like a pub invitation, I would refuse with no explanation, unless asked for one.

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sermonindex

Steve, brother, can I ask you plainly why you drink?

OK, lets be very very careful here. I'm not promoting drinking. I'm also not going to put a blanket condemnation on something that the Bible does not put a blanket condemnation on. I think that is putting man's rules over top of God's.

The Bible is replete with warnings about alcohol, but never condemns the consumption of alcohol. Therefore, we would do well to heed the warnings of scripture, and Christians are certainly better off to leave it alone.

In America the church's attitude toward alcohol has very much been shaped by the "temperance" movement of the 1800's, which eventually led to Prohibition in the 1920's... which was an utter failure. Why did it fail? Because it wasnt about changing the hearts of men... it was about legislating morality.

In other cultures, such as in Italy or Germany for instance, alcohol is not viewed as we in the US tend to view it. Are there problem with alcohol? Certainly there is. But at the same time many people in those societies drink a glass of wine with dinner and it's no different to them than having an ice tea with dinner here. I'm speaking of Christians. I have friends who are missionaries in Germany and Italy, and we've had this discussion.

I'm honest about the fact that 2 or 3 times a year my wife and I have wine with dinner... and people here react like I'm a drunk or something. It's quite silly, really.

But here's the key factor: every Christian has to consider how their behavior effects other believers and non-believers. Paul spoke about our freedom in Christ, and I am wholly convinced that this issue falls under that category. Whether I drink a glass of wine or a cold beer with a steak dinner at my favorite steak house (which is called The Peddler's Inn in Hendersonville, NC... if you're ever passing thru) has no bearing whatsoever on my salvation. And on top of that, I do so with a clear conscience before my Lord.

[b]BUT[/b]... at the same time Paul also warned that we should never let our freedom be a stumbling block to a younger believer. Therefore this is not something I do in front of someone who I know will stumble because of my freedom in Christ to do so. I will "sacrifice" (tho it's not really a big deal to me to refrain) my freedom in order to not cause someone to stumble.

In fact, my wife is generally the only person around... when I have that glass of wine or beer every 4 - 6 months.

Some might say I may cause someone to stumble simply by being open about my freedom in Christ. I dont believe it will. First off, to act like I dont exercise this freedom is to be deceitful. So therefore I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it and join the chorus of people roundly condemning moderate alcohol consumption because I do not believe it is a sin.

Secondly, it is a great teaching moment on several different levels. It's a challenge to believers to go to the scriptures and see if what we've all been taught is true. Is alcohol forbidden in scripture? The simple answer is no. Tho most believers think it is. Our Lord's very first miracle was turning water into what? Grape juice? No... wine. It was a celebration, a wedding. The grooms father asked why the best wine was saved for last when everyone knows you serve the best wine first... and the worst wine gets served after everyone is feeling good.

So Jesus contributed to the celebration. Let that sink in.

I've heard the arguments that He created grape juice, or that it barely had any alcohol in it. But in context it's obvious to anyone who is honest that it was wine... as in wine served at a great celebration like a wedding.

It's also a great teaching example of what Paul taught about freedom in Christ... and how we can exercise our freedom responsibly, and not cause others to stumble. How we should put others first, and sacrifice our freedom as needed.

Thats why I insist on being honest and open with y'all about this. Paul called out Peter for eating meat with Gentile believers and then pretending that he didnt when the Jewish believers showed up. I dont want to be like Peter in that situation... I'm already enough like Peter! lol

I am convinced within my heart that what I do is unto the Lord, and with a clear heart. I also sacrifice the exercise of that freedom as the Holy Spirit leads me to do so. I am very sensitive about not causing others to stumble. I never want to be guilty of that.

Over a private romantic dinner with the beautiful Georgia peach I married... having a glass of wine is a pleasure. And we only get to go out to dinner alone (without 4 hungry boys in tow) only happens a couple times a year. So relax, y'all... I am not a slosh! lol

Love y'all... and I'm not interested in debating this. This is the clearest way I know how to express my position on this issue. I'm totally convinced that this is a 100% scriptural position. So if I dont respond to opinions against what I've wrote... I'm simply choosing not to argue about it. Dont take it personally. :-)

Krispy

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Ruach34

Paul and Frank, thank you for your candor and frankness. (no pun intended)
Would like to tell a quick story that may relate more to the original post on this thread...

During my days in the far-country i thought i was saved and going to heaven, but lived far from God without an internal witness of His saving power over sin. It was one day before my wedding and we were living in Missoula, MT. Many friends had been invited, friends both from un-saved condition and some from a born-again condition. So, what did we do but plan a night out dancing and drinking... My long-time friend, who was with me in China growing up, came and sat with us in the bar, a glum lump. Oh, how my heart longed for him to take part, liven up etc... The night got progressively worse as drinks turned to shots and then violently ill. At one point I found myself on the curb outside the pub sitting, depressed at the condition I was in, then came my friend, so perfect and in the Holy Spirit. Cannot recall a thing he said to me, but it was in full love and grace, without a hint of condemnation. It ruined me and as I watched him through out the whole night he was as an indictment to my hypocrisy and life.
So, I can attest that the Lord God used him mightily in my life to draw my heart back to the Lord. It was his obedience that the Lord honored.

O, I praise God for those who can obediently go into pubs, the hoosegows, the hovels of whoredoms and pull out the lost souls. This is the love that is from Christ Himself and that will wrestle the world from anyone.

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sermonindex

Dear brother Paul....now brother, I like that answer much better. You said exaclty what you said the first time, only with such sweetness :) And, by the way, I completely agree with you. And I also agree with you and brother Tozer about C.S.Lewis..........your brother in Christ........Frank

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mamaluk

I'm glad you brought up C.S. Lewis because I feel he perfectly illustrates my point above. C.S. Lewis is not a man I consider mighty in God, and I think there were serious flaws in his theology, and His writings I find more allegorical and intelligent than Holy Spirit unction-filled and transforming. C.S. Lewis was primarily an apologist for Christianity, which is pretty much the norm for men who cling to worldly vices with one hand and Christ with the other.

Brother Paul, I too am glad to see C.S. Lewis brought up, for the longest time, I thought I might be holding some unfair prejudice against his writings since everyone around me seem to love his them alright,yet I can't seem to figure out why I dislike his works.

Could you please explain the part of the Christian apologists' views or works and their impact on Christianity to us a bit further?

As for the drinking and smoking bit, everyone on this thread has some valid points , this verse comes to mind here in Colossians 3:23
"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men." It'd be hard to smoke and drink, in whatever quantity, ...heartily, as to the Lord. :)

I thank the Lord for delivering me from the power of all such (drinking, smoking cig/pot) years ago, praise HIM so much really. I fully agree with brother Paul's stance on his encouragement to the body of Christ here on SI, for it appears most edifying and honoring to God.

Unfortunately, sometimes, it is just that one, one glass, one shot,one sip, one dose..that causes problems down the line. One glass of wine or beer with dinner is enough to be a stumblingblock for my grown children in our household. Hope I don't come across as self-righteous.

Thanks,


Margaret

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rbanks

Brother Paul I must say that I appreciate the candor that you have written in your posts. I thank you for the depth of concern that you have displayed concerning our witness and devotion to our lord Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul stated that if eating meat would offend his brother that he would eat no meat as long as the world standeth. He also said for us not to use our liberty for a stumbling block to others. We are also not to let our good be evil spoken of and we are also exhorted to live above reproach. Any Christian that does not understand this has not matured in his walk with God. I have seen many destroyed by alcohol and I have warned my children not to touch it and they will never become addicted nor will they ever be an alcoholic. God has saved me from a terrible past life and I appreciate so much what God has saved me from that I don’t want to please myself but only my Lord and Savior.

I have asked the Lord that before I would ever bring reproach to his name to please take me out of this world. I had rather die early than to live long and bring any kind of shame to his name. I don’t care where you find me at home or in a restaurant I will not have in my possession anything that could be a stumbling block to someone else no matter how old or young they maybe in the Lord. The Apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ and what you see me do then you can do and God will bless you.

I believe God is calling Christians praying for genuine revival to a higher calling than to please ourselves in any matter that is related to an ungodly lifestyle. The bible tells us to be filled with the Spirit and you want desire the lusts of the flesh. I have never met a true Holy Spirit filled man/woman who could enjoy drinking any alcohol for pleasure. A person filled with the Holy Spirit enjoys the things of the Spirit. The apostle Paul told those at Corinth, you are yet carnal and walk as mere men. God save us from carnality!

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PaulWest

Brother Paul I must say that I appreciate the candor that you have written in your posts. I thank you for the depth of concern that you have displayed concerning our witness and devotion to our lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you so much for the feedback. And I also thank my precious brother Frank and our dear little Krittr - who just happens to be Krispy (aka Steve) - for their mature responses as well.

You know, standing up for what you believe is right can often make you seem like a villian. It can make you quite unpopular and appear self-righteous and arrogant. I've lost friends because of these convictions, and fellowships have been broken (not by my choice). Words can be interpreted wrong, motives scrutinized and miscontrued. I happen to hold the view that a mature Christian is not given to alcohol and tobacco - not even on occasion. This kind of absolutism is very often put down and misunderstood by others when a person vocalizes such stringent convictions publically. Those who do partake of these vices will stand up and throw down the gauntlet of challenge, usually citing how the Bible does not explicitly prohibit drinking alcohol. In the worst case scenario, they will write you off as one attepting to push legality and personal convictions to strip others of their freedom in Christ. If I have come off like that in this thread, I sincerely repent. This is not my intention. This may sound surprising, but I believe in allowing the Holy Spirit to do His job sovereignly, without my interference.

I dearly love Steve and anyone else who may not see eye-to-eye with my convictions, and I take any and all contstructive criticisms pertaining to my postings and ministry here on SermonIndex to heart. For the most part, I receive unanimous support and appreciation through private email and PM's - but I occasionally get the angry, resentful email and PM as well. I take those to heart just as much (nay, even more) than the favorable ones, because as ministers of righteousness and holiness we must always be examining and inspecting our inner condition, lest the enemy break through with sublity and contaminate our words or advice. Sometimes God uses others to show us just that.

Even with my criticism of C.S. Lewis, I realize I must take caution with what I say and how I come across. In truth, I count the man as a sleeping brother, and I'm fearful to lose a reward on judgment day because of an incautious statement made about him here in forum. Sharpshooting one's theology and pointing out that which is obvious is not a malicious thing in itself, but the motive behind it may be, and nothing ever passes God's radar undetected.

C
Compton

Krispy (aka Steve)

I was thinking to myself today that Krispy is SI's Joe the Plumber. (That's meant as a compliment) ;-)

MC

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rbanks

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God doesn’t wink at wrong doing.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

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KathleenP

I've been blessed and encouraged by this thread. Sometimes I've been a bit unsure of the overall views of some and then become hesitant to post lest I open myself up to a rebuke. I do attempt to display meekness and pray that that is felt through what is put on paper.

I simply feel that God himself has laid the plumbline and that we are entering into walks that will require us to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are to be holy in all manner of conversation. I also recall the verses of II Corinthians 6:3-4. Giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed: But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses...

I read alot of times in Daniel and study the manner of his character and how they could find no fault in him. The world will be scrutinizing us more and more and it will not help when those that are false will set such shameful examples. May we strive be the opposite and display such integrity to the world.

May I recommend Art Katz's Growing into Sonship. Very very good.

Lastly, I pray that we chose to simply avoid all appearance of evil and desire to set a precedent for the bride to come.

Kathleen

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JoanM

What a blessing this thread has been to all that have walked through it. God must really love JoeSOC because not only did he get a lot of counsel on the question he asked, [b]he also got to see a mini-version of the very difficulty he was having (anticipating) in what to say when someone asks you....how to say it[/b].

Scripture, and the living Word being worked out with the Spirit of God, through poor men and women. This is testimony, which accompanied individual testimony, and the fruit: Love. Glory to God. It spoke to my heart. I really wanted to post “Group Hug” at one point on this thread which I first saw posted by our Krispy on another thread.

Of course this applies to more situations than going to a pub and drinking alcohol.

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PaulWest

Could you please explain the part of the Christian apologists' views or works and their impact on Christianity to us a bit further?

Well, an apologist is basically a person who defends a particular belief or philosophy, often using logic and/or other types and techniques of persuasion. C.S Lewis, of course, was famous with his apologetical [i]Jesus was either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic[/i] statement.

I think apologetics are good - up to a point. I see them only as a conditioner - or a primer - to perhaps get the system ready for the real fuel. Too much apologetics I think can do more harm than good, just like too much conditioner can frustrate an optimal condition, and too much primer can ruin a good engine. Too much apologetics can deaden and kill and seal off that which you are trying to open. Also, apologetics do not give divine life, because the technique stems from logic and reasonable deduction, which are earthly and can be comprehended by man independant of God. You do not have to be a man or woman indued with God to be an able apologist for Christianity; in fact, you don't even need to be saved. You just need to be intelligent and zealous and convinced. This is why I believe the most ardent apologists for Christianity and religion are those who have [i]nothing but[/i] logic and reason and zeal and conviction to project their case from. But all of that minus unction equals zero in terms of the impartation of divine life. If you shake a tree, 100 apologists will fall out with their pet Bible versions and patriotism (or antipatriotism) and crusade for moral uprightness; but for every 100 apologists that fall, maybe 2 or 3 men seized by God who are are broken and sequestered from the world and self will fall out with living fire on their toungues and a well of living water flowing from their bellies.

Once in awhile you'll see the merging of the two - apologetics leading to life, but you'll never see apologetics [i]replacing[/i] life with the sanction of God upon it. When men do not have the sanction of God's unction upon their lives because of a vice or some other kind of disobedience, they often become brilliant (albeit lifeless) apologists by default. Their ministry of life is forfeited, the Spirit withdraws (but doesn't disown) and they are relgated to an earthly realm of logic and deduction and formulas.

Oops. Did I just get myself in trouble again?

:-o

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sermonindex

Hi Brother Paul...what I like about you brother is that you exhibit the maturity that you speak of. You willingness to apologize for even percieved issues. For that I thank you for leading by example. You strike me as a brother who , although is thouroughly convinced in what he believes,(and one should be) but still has a teachable spirit. We are 99% in agreement on these issues brother, and I think that is pretty good :) What I more happy to align myself with you though is, your humility and love. When we exercise and demonstrate these fruits, then we will walk in the power that you spoke of earlier......brother Frank

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Swordbearer

C.S. Lewis was primarily an apologist for Christianity, which is pretty much the norm for men who cling to worldly vices with one hand and Christ with the other.

Very poignant observation, brother. The more I think about it, and think of men whose writings I have read, and men I have observed or listened to... :-o...This is a very wise statement indeed, and is certainly worthy of further discussion. It could prove interesting to see who argues the point.... :-)

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PaulWest

[i]"And a certain Jew named Apollos...an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures...this man was instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in the Spirit...and he began to speak boldly in the synagogues; whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, [b]they took him onto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly[/b]."[/i] (Acts 18:24-26)

I don't think we would have ever heard of a man named Apollos, had he not humbled himself and allowed someone to expound the way of God more perfectly to him. He was aready mighty in the scriptures, fervent in spirit, and bold in the synagogues. Because he submitted, in spite of his authority and eloquence, to a better expounding of God's ways, we know of him today and the Holy Spirit saw fit to include his name in blessed, eternal scripture. This is a object lesson for me, and it should be for everyone who reads this.

I am a nobody...but I love God and I am confident in my convictions because I believe with all my heart that they are from God. But that verse about Apollo blesses me tremendously, and sets an example I believe God would have me emulate and grow from. God has sent plenty of Aquilas and Priscillas down my path; some I have listened to, but many others I have foolishly disregarded. But God, in His grace, doesnlt give up and keeps them coming. Dear brother, I have learnt years ago that growth in God and maturity in grace comes from believing you are not as grown-up as others may think you are, and not as mature as others would regard you as. Once you get confident in self, you begin to discount the Aquilas and Priscillas God sends your way, but the lower you bend in humility and honest self-deprecation, the higher God exalts you in grace and wisdom. If we make it our objective to get closer to God - no matter what the cost is to self-perception - the Lord will make that path available.

M
mamaluk

When men do not have the sanction of God's unction upon their lives because of a vice or some other kind of disobedience, they often become brilliant (albeit lifeless) apologists by default. Their ministry of life is forfeited, the Spirit withdraws (but doesn't disown) and they are relgated to an earthly realm of logic and deduction and formulas.

I have to take a deep breath from reading this, surely all things work together for good...well,
I came across someone as such but was totally taken by his brilliance with all as described.
By the way, how do you mean by "the Spirit withdraws ( but doesn't disown )", I tend to see that the Spirit withdraws from whatever or whomever He can't or won't own anyhow? Please expand a bit.

which is pretty much the norm for men who cling to worldly vices with one hand and Christ with the other

This brilliant bible teacher I met is exactly this way and even manages to teach the bible with the events in Genesis by injecting sexual innuendo, believe it or not! Not only is he well read, well learned,and well versed, with 3 doctoral degrees and a physician, his photographic memory allows him to pull out scriptures left and right instantaneously. Besides, he teaches not for economic gain.

Many of the participants are extremely impressed by his ability and knowledge. As much as I held my suspicion for a long time, I had the hardest time withdrawing only because I just could not get over the fact of his brilliance with Scriptures. I had the hardest time believing how can one knows Scripture so well but leads a life contrary to It all his life. Then I tried to defend him by telling myself not to be so critical or judgmental. Besides, I was suppose to show love!? In time, I deluded myself into thinking of persuading him to seek unction from the Spirit via prayers, not only that, that I was able to draw him back to God and correct his life style. Speaking of the total lack of discretion and presumption on my part. "Pride comes before destruction", this time around, my over confidence and pride almost cost me to stumble to no end.


This is why I believe the most ardent apologists for Christianity and religion are those who have nothing but logic and reason and zeal and conviction to project their case from

Indeed. These men carry a great deal of zeal and conviction, but only to their own gain. Another characteristic of this kind is perhaps, smoothness.

Judge, brothers and sisters, judge by their (teachers,preachers,leaders) fruits according the the Word. We simply can not afford not to.

Did I just get myself in trouble again?

Ah..if you do get into trouble of this kind, get more, it's good for The Lord's sheep.
Paul, thank you. by the way, [b]none[/b] of us in Christ, is "nobody", to God, and perhaps more so to Satan. He is out to get [b]every single one[/b] of us...24/7.

Let us warn each other, admonish each other...for this is the much needed love in keeping ourselves in sobriety and unity.

Thanks again
Margaret

M
mamaluk

Sigh...I feel as if God is wanting me to share further from my last post. In the end, I was seduced, (as a married woman) this event almost cost me my marriage and my children's faith.

God's faithfulness delivered me just in time, but I walked away with an injured soul and a shameful spirit.

Beware brothers and sisters, intoxication is not only from the pubs, but perhaps from all too many pulpits.

sola gratia

P
PaulWest

By the way, how do you mean by "the Spirit withdraws ( but doesn't disown )", I tend to see that the Spirit withdraws from whatever or whomever He can't or won't own anyhow? Please expand a bit.

Sorry if it seems confusing. When I refer to the "Spirit withdrawing but not disowning", I mean to say the Holy Spirit withdrawing divine unction from a person's ministry, but not disowning or damning him/her. It's basically the Lord not being able to use the man in giving life to others, though the man is still counted a child of God. I believe there are diferent levels of Christians, in different grades in God's school. Though the Lord is no respector of persons, He [i]does[/i] promote certain men to higher levels in maturity and wisdom while others remain at one level - on a plateau, if you will - and stay there for the rest of their life. I believe at some point in time every believer is given the opportunity to grow into a mighty, holy vessel in God's Hands, but some men count the tuition as too costly, knowing they may have to give up drinking or smoking or inordinate affection for entertainment or sports or politics or money or whatever - and so the Spirit that was once brooding over and convicting them on these things (i.e. inviting them to progess in the levels of God's academy), withdraws and lets them have their freedoms back. But it comes with a price, for as their "freedom" returns, their ability now to impart divine life through the unction of God departs. What we are left with is your nominal Christian man or woman - witty, opinionated, zealous to a degree, apologetic...but unctionless and impotent in being to bring life to others.

I hope this explains my position a bit clearer. Thank you, sister.

Brother Paul

G
ginnyrose

Joe,

You are a Christian and have a deep desire to do the will of the Father. This is commendable. In our walk we often encounter surprises which later leaves one questioning our response. And such appears to have been the case here.

May I be so bold to say you did OK and do not fret and I will tell you why.

You took a stand for your LORD. Now the devil will come along and question what you said: did I say the right thing? Should I not have said it differently? was I too rude? Could I have said it nicer? What will people think? and then - you could have gone one time, that would not have hurt....Brother, these are darts sent your way by the enemy of your soul! DO NOT listen to them! Regardless who says what. You are looking back! You know what Jesus says about those who look back? He says they are not fit for the kingdom of God!

Brother, this is life - you will do what you really thought was the right thing and then later you question your response. It happens all the time and I do not reckon you will ever get to the place where it won't. Knowing this should strengthen you, help you to be alert to the tactics of your enemy. And he will use other Christians to facilitate doubt in your mind.

Stay close to the LORD and he will direct your responses now and in the future. Personally, I admire you! God bless and keep you!

ginnyrose


J
joeSOC

Dear Team,

Thank you all for your mixed responses. I have definitely been blessed. What blessed me the most is to see brothers and sisters with different views on alcohol who passionately disagree on the subject matter not loose sight of the primary commandment of Jesus love your neighbour.
I wish I could have this kind of fellowship with those in my life who did consume alcohol, but unfortunately I can't. I know I cannot go where my colleague goes to relax. I broke up with a girl because of my stand on alcohol and bars. She goes to church on Sunday (she even went to bible college) and finds nothing wrong in going to a night club and drinking with her colleagues. She may be right, she may be wrong, I do not know but what I do know is this... I cannot marry someone like that. This was difficult for me but from an objective view point it is easy, as the word says do not be unequally yoked. There is a cost to pay for my convictions. I know this is cost is nothing in the light of what Jesus has done for me. Just for the record I do not actually think I am very holy. I still have desires to watch movies etc. One day I know even that will be gone. What a glorious day will that day be.
I want to be able to tell my kids when I do get married and have them, that they don't need alcohol to enjoy and relax. I might actually tell them its dangerous. I want them to experience the same level of freedom I do
I have seen the effects of alcohol on people. Let me close with this one incident I will never forget this as long as I live. I was flying from London to Melbourne, stopping over at Hong Kong. This happened after 9 11. We were flying over Moscow and i heard screams in the plane. I am not kidding loud screams. Several passengers woke up and so did I. I asked the passenger to my left what's going on and she told me. There was a man at the lower end of the plane, who drank a "few" beers and then threatened to kill his girl friend, the passengers in the row they were sitting and then he wanted to kill the crew. I saw one of the crew members with blood on his singlet (what you wear under the shirt). His shirt was ripped off. I got up to see and I saw a man lying on the floor with his hands tied yelling profanities and screaming. We landed in Hong Kong and there were commandoes with mp5 sub machine guns waiting to pick this person while all the other passengers got out of the aircraft. First hand account.

G
ginnyrose

God bless you, son! You keep on doing what your convictions instruct you and you will never regret it..would that more young men - and a lot of older ones, as well - have the nerve and strength of character to take unpopular stands.

Like I said in another post on this thread - I admire you!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

M
mamaluk

Thanks for the clarification brother Paul

The trouble is, seems as if many(including myself in my recent encounter) are saying/hearing and refusing to judge the wolves in sheepskin, they are saying they can't tell what's on one's heart, who is and who is not !!??

While i'm now thinking, that despite so many Scriptures in Matthew, Jude, 1John, 1Cor, even with all the warnings from the O.T....we are still convinced with preachings such as:


Judge not lest ye be judged..(out of context of course)
God loves the sinners just not their sins (so yoke with them and close one eye to sin!)
You never know people's motives (what else can be the motive behind sin? Sin!!)
You never know whats on one's heart (how else can sin manifest one's heart? Sin!!)

Unctionless teachers/preachers, I am tempted to say, often come with not-so-healthy fruits.

Bear with me, I'm really reproving myself here for refusing to judge when I ought to, and ended up almost in disaster.

Praise God, nonetheless, especially for Christ's Blood and His Word.


J
joeSOC

Christ in me the Hope of Glory ! Thanks for your encouragement ginny.

C
crsschk

[i]Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[/i] Rom 14:22

I was thinking to myself today that Krispy is SI's Joe the Plumber. (That's meant as a compliment)

:-)

Coach, father, defender of the faith and ... a certain King who has a very good book attributed to his name.

All sentiments truly meant aside I do not know if this is a coming to defense more than just a sideways approach ...

For all the years of similar postings on this subject matter I cannot but wonder if [i]sometimes[/i] personal convictions might not be better kept to silence and to, well oneself. That verse above stood out recently maybe a week ago and it wasn't the concluding part as much as;

[i] have it to thyself before God[/i]

Herein lies the difficulty of jumping into what perhaps is the middle - unbiased, recognizing and hearing all thoughts on this matter. Not to defend nor to promote.

Amongst mature Brethren a discussion of convictions is helpful and edifying and here ... it seems kind of a tricky business. On the one hand the participants are of this mind, mature but the wonder goes out to that very verse, at least the implications ... [i]Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.[/i] 1Co 8:13 towards those that may be peering in from afar, those possibly looking for that elusive loop hole of justification, a whole myriad of possibilities. Careful seems to be the word - Forgive me, I am working through my thoughts as I go.

Now, my experience ... I hesitate but I love [i]good[/i] beer. Trouble is, it no longer loves me. That is to say that for some ... strange reason ... it appears I have developed some sort of allergic reaction to it and not just beer just alcohol in general. My sinuses shut down and I get an instant headache if, on those very rare occasions I would have partaken in a (singular) Guinness or a Sam Adams. (An insert here, there is also something to be said about [i]with a meal[/i], absobtion and so forth). Going into full disclosure here I do prefer beer over the sweet, syrupy and caffeinated beverage of choice (Coke) though I generally have one with lunch. So it is O'Douls for me, the non-alcoholic beverage.

Some background. "Joe six-pak" had nothing on me, my buddies and I were far closer to "Joe twelve-pak" for a great number of years. Everyone brought their 'twelver' of Coors light. And they just kind of all merged together in the fridge where we would gather for that male bonding rite of American sports- Yes, all of them
;-)

Throw in the bong and well, you have the picture completed. Hardly a defense, an explanation, an assessment of days gone by. Well, enough of that, if they ever make a non-alcoholic Guinness that still tasted exactly like the original ...

Where I want to go with this is back to the beginning. I perfectly grasp where our brother Krispy is coming from and just as well our dear brother Paul West to make them standouts not excluded from everyone else. To be clear, I once posted something of a tirade derived from Act 2:15 ([i] ... not drunken, as ye suppose[/i]) against the unfathomable corruption of the text by much some of the Charismatic realm equating the Holy Spirit's actions as somehow similar, comparable ... [i]welcomed[/i]. It can get the blood boiling to even make mention of it here ... All of scripture denies it adamantly, drunkenness is foolishness, folly, trouble, pain, shame - ruinous and in every culture, epidemic. To be frank I still find it ... somewhat spurious that it is labeled a 'disease' - Sin is perceived as a 'disease' as well and ... maybe that is not a good parallel and would open up the wrong can of worms. Alcoholism, as it is termed is rampant and so are other vices of escapism - drug's, food, sex, entertainment and ah, the mere mention falls right into the comparable category - making all things equal, the defense\\justification mantra. You know it seems like this is really preaching to the choir and almost a complete waste of time, what am I trying to say? Each to his own? Or maybe it is after all a good thing to hear some hard words and strong opinions [i]against[/i] the practice, even in very light doses. Here is the crux or trick of it all- If you are seeking justification I would suppose you are already under a sense of personal conviction and ought to hear and internalize the admonishens. Defending (self defending that is) is almost always a sign in my estimation of justifying that which we are either not sure of or that which we are sure of but do not want to come to terms with. It is the bane of modern day 'prophets' being put to the test having to explain their way out of their words and proclamations rather than speaking and simultaneously shutting up, end of subject. It is similar to a multitude of things that we come up against - honesty and honest dealings - admitting when we are wrong, changing our minds when presented with better evidence, we are often so proud and so afraid of losing an estimation in a mans eye that we shrink and cower back, cover, explain ... defend. It is really a great farce are more often than not we know it, convictions more often, most often, come from the inside out - The outside in, those that our own bring forth, through the melon, the eyes and ears and senses usually finds the center already there, finds food to feed on.

It's really something I must say. You see, I spent decades in a state of altered conscience, under the influance of so much - all the aforementioned partying and even my love for music and as a life long goal of becoming a musician kept me in this state. I have gone on here about it before, but [i]for me[/i] I had to forgo it, all of it, even the "Christianized" music because of the tweaking and manipulating of the senses, emotions, the soulishness of it all. Again, [i]me[/i], personally, my conviction, but also my new reality - I just cannot deal with being altered in my conscience, no matter what it comes from, even pain killers are difficult to deal with, I cannot be 'buzzed' on any level and cannot square things that are half-baked, half truth - in denomination, doctrine, character, disposition yet for all that, those things are still in need of extraction, the hypocrisy of my own life, the lies my own thoughts tell me, the failings and falterings and foolishness ... the creation groans, I groan.

Quite the ramble, but to come back to the original post here, this;

10. I am vulnerable to the opposite sex.

This, this is so telling and so penetratingly honest. This is admittance and I share the same, practically and abstractly if you will, in principle. Ah for more [i]conviction[/i], full circle back to Romans, [i] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God.[/i] Just as well, [i]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. - Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[/i] I would suppose there are those who can go places where others cannot go and maybe this is the line that many cannot figure out when it comes to who we can or cannot 'hang around with' to put it coarsely. The straddle of keeping company with unbelievers and so forth ... [i]to what level?[/i] comes to mind, to what conviction, [i]Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth[/i].

Will leave off with an impression I got earlier this year. I know the atmosphere is often hostile towards sports and even, maybe too often rightly suspicious of celebrity 'conversions', whoever they may be. Was watching the baseball All-Star festivities and specifically the Home Run derby prior to the main game and was very impressed by Josh Hamilton of the Texas Rangers. Not only did he do something never done before (Hitting more home runs in one 'set' than any before him) but the mentions of his faith and a lone comment that spelled out everything I needed to hear. This man knew his own distrust and from the telling he never went [i]anywhere[/i] without his mentor, that he had submitted himself to this discipline knowing his disposition, temptations, especially those that would come along in his line of work. There was something just in the way he carried himself that spoke louder than words but this I found just tremendous, this was more than 'talk' this was practical evidence for all to see, all his teammates, everyone around him. My imagination reeled at the questions that must be asked all the time for the [i]why[/i] of it all from onlookers and fans etc. Faith in action. Here is a bit on him;


[url=http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/012708dnspowebrangersz.218a1b6.html]Faith brings Texas Rangers' Hamilton back from the brink[/url]

A
AbideinHim

I really do appreciate all that has been shared on this subject, because this affects each and every one of us. There are many Christians that might not see drinking to be a stumblingblock to them but have a problem with over eating. I really think that this is more of a problem for Christians than drinking, and when we read the scripture that Paul gave "I buffet my body", I think that we interpret that as eating everything on the buffet at the restaraunt.

The point is that we make many rules and regulations about eating and drinking but if we are being led by the Spirit within us, we would never do anything that would dishonor the Lord. The Spirit of God would always convict us of anything that is not in line with His will for us.

My wife and I were in an Italian Restaraunt several years ago, and I thought it might be nice to order a glass of wine with my meal, but I did not feel right on the inside about doing this, so I ordered ice tea instead. It was a short time after this that a man walked up to our table that I recognized as being one of the prison inmates that I had ministered to in the past. Now what kind of witness would that have been if he would have seen me drinking that wine? It could have even been a real stumbling block to him.

The difference between being taught by man about whether or not it is wrong for Christians to drink, and then having the Spirit of God reveal it to you is as different as night and day.

I would like to share a little story that Brother Watchman Nee shares in the book "The Normal Christian Life".

"I went, late one summer, for a prolonged period of rest to a hill-resort where accommodation was difficult to obtain, and while there it was necessary for me to sleep in one house and take my meals in another, the latter being the home of a mechanic and his wife. For the first two weeks of my visit, apart from asking a blessing at each meal, I said nothing to my hosts about the Gospel; and then one day my opportunity came to tell them about the Lord Jesus. They were ready to listen and to come to Him in simple faith for the forgiveness of their sins. They were born again, and a new light and joy came into their lives, for theirs was a real conversion. I took care to make clear to them what had happened, and then, as the weather turned colder, the time came for me to leave them and return to Shanghai.

During the cold winter months the man was in the habit of drinking wine with his meals, and he was apt to do so to excess. After my departure, with the return of the cold weather, the wine appeared on the table again, and that day, as he had become accustomed to do, the husband bowed his head to return thanks for the meal—but no words would come. After one or two vain attempts he turned to his wife. ‘What is wrong?’ he asked. ‘Why cannot we pray today? Fetch the Bible and see what it has to say about wine drinking.’ I had left a copy of the Scriptures with them, but though the wife could read she was ignorant of the Word, and she turned the pages in vain seeking for light on the subject. They did not know how to consult God’s Book and it was impossible to consult God’s messenger, for I was many miles away and it might be months before they could see me. ‘Just drink your wine’, said his wife. ‘We’ll refer the matter to brother Nee at the first opportunity.’ But still the man found he just could not return thanks to the Lord for that wine. ‘Take it away!’ he said at length; and when she had done so, together they asked a blessing on their meal.

When eventually the man was able to visit Shanghai he told me the story. Using an expression familiar in Chinese: ‘Brother Nee’, he said, ‘Resident Boss wouldn’t let me have that drink!’ ‘Very good, brother’, I said. ‘You always listen to Resident Boss!’

Many of us know that Christ is our life. We believe that the Spirit of God is resident in us, but this fact has little effect upon our behaviour. The question is, do we know Him as a living Person, and do we know Him as ‘Boss’? - From "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee

G
ginnyrose

Brother,

I appreciate your post...I was compiling our church bulletin when I needed more inspirational pieces to fill it up. I felt led to come to SI to search for something, what I did not know. Then I read your post...and it seemed right to me to take parts of it and include it our bulletin. In fact, I removed what I did have and used this post instead.

God must have inspired this post, brother. Yes, when one posts one never knows who will end up reading it and be challenged.

Also appreciate Mike's post - he is right on. One should never confuse personal opinions with Biblical directives - it is tantamount to idolatry. Something we all have to deal with on a regular basis - no one is immune from its lure.

Just thought I would share this and hope it will be an encouragement to you all....

Blessings,
ginnyrose

B
broclint

Excellent quote Brother Mike F.

Many of us know that Christ is our life. We believe that the Spirit of God is resident in us, but this fact has little effect upon our behaviour. The question is, do we know Him as a living Person, and do we know Him as ‘Boss’?

Solomon said after a life of justifying all sorts of behaviors and then concluding that he had been chasing the wind:
Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14 (NKJV) 13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

It all comes down to whether or not we really want to please "the Boss" and to that matter of love... love that dares not for the sake of self displease willfully one who loved us so much to lay aside the splendor of heaven, condescend to become a man and as a man die so brutal a death to pay for my sins.

God bless all of you who have written so amicably on this forum.

Clint

P. S. I surely am sorry that it took a backache to get me the time to visit these forums as much as I once did, but it has been a pleasant experience (the visit, not the backache).... hope to see some of you in a couple of days, Lord willing. :-)

J
joeSOC

Brilliant post


When eventually the man was able to visit Shanghai he told me the story. Using an expression familiar in Chinese: ‘Brother Nee’, he said, ‘Resident Boss wouldn’t let me have that drink!’ ‘Very good, brother’, I said. ‘You always listen to Resident Boss!’

S
sermonindex


joeSOC wrote:
Brilliant post


When eventually the man was able to visit Shanghai he told me the story. Using an expression familiar in Chinese: ‘Brother Nee’, he said, ‘Resident Boss wouldn’t let me have that drink!’ ‘Very good, brother’, I said. ‘You always listen to Resident Boss!’


That's good!

M
mamaluk

What’s one glass of wine with dinner?

Event: After all, the man of ‘god” ordered one. One should have a glass too, just to be polite. Followed by the man of god saying, “I have desire, ….flatteries…...more flatteries…I’d like to see you drunk…”. What a nightmare!!

Here’s one glass that called upon grief from the watching angels.
Here’s one glass that wrecked one’s conscience before God.
Here’s one glass that caused an emotional scar for the child of God,
Here’s one glass that almost destroyed many Blood-bought souls,
and Here’s one glass that robbed the glory of God.

Saints, can you be confident that you would not ever find yourself in this scenario? That's what I was most certain of, after blessed by God to be a faithful wife and mother for 30 years.

Behind the pulpits, in the pub. Same difference.

Be warned, sisters.

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