Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.

Jerry, I can only speak from my own experience.
Salvation came when I realized my shame and sin
and invited Christ into my heart and life. The
baptism and filling of the Spirit came later
when I began to understand what it meant to be
filled and led by the Spirit. We must be Spirit
born, Spirit filled, and Spirit led Christians.
The Spirit is the pledge of Christ within us,
the hope of glory. When our Blessed Lord returns
for His own, He will know us by the emblem of
His Holy Spirit within !!

Hi Krispy,

You challenged me on issue yesterday and I was about to start a thread. Now somebody else has done it.

I do believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is distinguished from but subsequent to repentance, faith and water baptism and there is overwhelming evidence in the scriptures for that.

The Holy Spirit is not necessary for those who are satisfied to have the correct doctrine only.
He is not neccessary for those who have it all togehter and know the answer to everything.

The Holy Spirit is promised to everyone, but not everyone, in fact only a minority is desperate enough to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

You have to ask for Him or you may not receive Him.

I see it sometimes as a counter reaction to Charismatic chaos. There is even a book entitled "Charismatic Chaos"
Satan works a dual strategy as always.
Either people go into wild exaggerations and as a reaction others reject any envolvement in anything that smells Charismatic.

There was a small move of the Holy Spirit in my country Germany just about at the time of the Azusa Street and Welsh Revival. There were some strange manifestation that were likely caused by demons. Subsequently the whole move was condemned by most Christian leaders. Some go so far as to say that Adolf Hitler was God's judgement because of this rejection.

Can you go to heaven without being filled with the Spirit? Can you go to heaven without being baptized in water?
I would answer: What is the reason why you did not get filled with the Holy Spirit or baptized in water? Was is ignorance, indifference or rejection of this truth?

How do I know if I am filled with the Holy Spirit? When you can cry out Abba Father. The Spirit Himself will witness to you.

In addition to the bible verses quoted by others I would mention these:
Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Act 8
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

narrowpath

Why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit? Why did He say He Himself would not leave us comfortless and would come Himself also?

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ, even though they are One Spirit with the Father. For we are all baptized into One Spirit. The Holy Spirit shed no blood, the Holy Spirit did not hang on the Cross. The Holy Spirit is not life, only the Spirit of Christ by the Incorruptable See of the Father is Life. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and works in the Soul of man. The Spirit of Christ is our rebirth and the life of all that are saved by the Father, new creatures in Christ.

The "another Comforter", who is the Holy Spirit who abides with us forever does what? To testify and teach Christ to the believers.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Who is our life, our life Comforter and who is the teacher of that life, another Comforter?

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So we have two Comforters, One to everlasting life which is Christ, and One to live with us forever declaring to us who Christ is and what He has said.

Spirit, Soul and Body.

Spirit, is Christ, Soul, where the Teacher Holy Spirit dwells, Body, clay pots, quickened to contain the God Head and all that God represents of His children, born of God by the Seed of Christ in us, making us son's of God also and lead by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

God is the One that sends the Holy Spirit and He is the One that Seals us into the life of Christ, new creatures in Christ Jesus, which we already have received, lest how could we be sealed.

The Holy Spirit Parakleet, Teacher is not the Spirit of Christ that gives us life, for without Christ's Spirit we are none of His and have no birth rights. But Baptized into all three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, Which water baptism displays to all that see, we are now son's of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, signed, sealed and delivered.

In Christ: Phillip

Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.

I am post-tribulation in theology, though I do believe in a post-conversion Spirit baptism. Regardless of your view, the idea that only those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit will go when the trumpet blows (no matter the timing) is entirely unbiblical.

May I be so bold as to say if somebody says otherwise, they are clearly enslaved to a works based theology, and thus, likely not even saved let alone filled with the Holy Spirit?

Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?\t

Reply Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.

This question is loaded with terms that need defining (Rapture, Conversion and Baptism with the Holy Spirit). I guess we should also ask can a person be baptized with the Holy Spirit [i]before[/i] conversion?

May I be so bold as to say if somebody says otherwise, they are clearly enslaved to a works based theology, and thus, likely not even saved let alone filled with the Holy Spirit?

This depends on what is meant by Spirit Baptism, I think.

[color=000066]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (I Cor. 12:13)[/color]

Can a person be saved that is [u]not[/u] in the Body of Christ?

This depends on what is meant by Spirit Baptism, I think.

By "Spirit Baptism," I mean that "Pentecostal" (loaded term) experience whereby after one's conversion in which they are born-again (and receive the indwelling and sealing Spirit of God), that person receives a special "endument" with "power from on high," which equips the believer for effectual and powerful service.

Quote:

"""By "Spirit Baptism," I mean that "Pentecostal" (loaded term) experience whereby after one's conversion in which they are born-again (and receive the indwelling and sealing Spirit of God), that person receives a special "endument" with "power from on high," which equips the believer for effectual and powerful service."""

Amen, but the evidence of it is not speaking in tongues, for the witness is in us, The Spirit of Christ for His Body the Church, the Holy Spirit giving power to our minds to the effectual and powerful service of Truth that may be brought to a dying and sinning world.

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:" Then the Holy Spirit comes and teaches us the truth of this mystery, which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

All that are born again have this witness in themselves. This is the power from on high given to all that are born again in Christ.

If we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His and the rapture and the Father's House in heavenly places are not ours either.

Praise God for the power in the Holy Spirit Teaching of the Truth, to our place in Christ. Heirs of God and Co-heirs with Christ:

1Jo 5:6 This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Phillip

quote;
Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.

Have you read the parable of the 10 virgins?

First, I request only those that believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is after they are saved because that is the stand I shall forever hold becvause I have experienced IT. Second, In reply to your belief of being baptized with the Holy Ghost at when one is saved, did not Paul ask some diciples in Acts 19:1-2:

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

We would have to agree that the baptism of the Holy Ghost was separate from their conversion.

Your Brother in Christ,
Jerry

By baptism, I mean a pentecostal blessing as in Acts 2. By rapture, I mean a pretribulation rapture.

I do not hold the belief that you must be baptized with the Hly Ghost to go in the rapture. I have a friend who as of the last time I spoke with him, he was leaning toward that belief. I was not satisfied with all the scripture he gave in support of that belief.

jerryaustin1 wrote:

First, I request only those that believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is after they are saved because that is the stand I shall forever hold becvause I have experienced IT.

[u][b]Luke 23:39-43 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ save Yourself and us.”
But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
[b]And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”[/b]

Brother, from scripture, this thief did not experience anthing other then the precious work from our Lord stating, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Nothing was done, no implication of being filled with the Holy Spirit, no baptism with water, nothing besides a pure belief in the Lord. This thief is now a brother of ours in Christ Jesus, raised on that day of glory. To state otherwise would be to imply that Jesus does not mean what He says.

As for the pre-trib q&a, I cannot answer your question because I do not subscribe to that thought. :-)

Blessings brother.

jerryaustin1 wrote:
I do not hold the belief that you must be baptized with the Hly Ghost to go in the rapture. I have a friend who as of the last time I spoke with him, he was leaning toward that belief. I was not satisfied with all the scripture he gave in support of that belief.

I understand that you do NOT hold to that belief, but my question is: why is it that do not you hold to that belief?

The Word of God is clear, that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ-he is none of his (does not belong to Christ)

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If the Spirit of Christ is not in someone, then that individual will not go with Christ in the rapture because "...he is none of his".

I believe that a person is not saved if they have NOT received the Spirit of God (Spirit of Christ, Holy Ghost) because that is the clear teaching to the Church in the New Testament.

If a man believes in Jesus, yet has not the Spirit-his belief in Christ may be motivated or assumed by the flesh-and belief according to the flesh is not justified by God as redeemable means of Grace unto salvation. Our belief in Christ must come from that "drawing of the Spirit"- which the Spirit can and does draw people unto him without being inside of them.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Billy Graham, Spurgeon, Tozer, Ravenhill... the list goes on and on... all men who never spoke in tongues. Are we prepared to say that none of these champions of Christ were Baptized with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [i]"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to [b]every man[/b] to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; [b]to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[/b] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/i]

Notice scripture makes it clear that tongues is given to [b]some[/b], but clearly not all.

It says "...[b]DIVERS[/b] KINDS of tongues" are given to some. Divers means "various". This means More than one kind of tongue are given to some. This is not the same as " unknown tongue" spoken of in 1 Cor 14:2-4.

In scripture you have "divers(various) kinds of tongues" and you " unknown tongue" and these are NOT the same thing.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Billy Graham, Spurgeon, Tozer, Ravenhill... the list goes on and on... all men who never spoke in tongues. Are we prepared to say that none of these champions of Christ were Baptized with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 [i]"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to [b]every man[/b] to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; [b]to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[/b] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/i]

Notice scripture makes it clear that tongues is given to [b]some[/b], but clearly not all.

And just to make things perfectly clear, the Holy Spirit has Paul re-emphasize the fact the [b]not all[/b] will speak with tongues. Read on...

[b]1 Corinthians 12:28-31[/b] [i]"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? [b]do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?[/b] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.[/i]

In context, the obvious answer to the question "do all speak with tongues?"... is [b]NO[/b].

I am glad for those who come here and tell us they speak in tongues. I believe in tongues. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. The amazing thing to me tho is that people love to boast and argue for the gift of tongues... yet I rarely hear anyone boast and argue for the gift of helps, or administration, or exhortation, or [b]giving[/b], or intercession, or leadership, or mercy, or....

It's always about tongues. It's interesting that Paul goes on in the next chapter to actually [b]minimize[/b] the gift of tongues in light of the other gifts, and in light of godly love.

If you feel the need to carry the banner of "tongues", and convince everyone that you're right... and that everyone needs to speak in tongues... and grade people's spirituality on whether or not they speak in tongues... you are out of balance and what you're doing is unscriptural. You're out of order.

Tongues is an important gift because it comes from God, and if something comes from God... it's important. But compared to the other gifts of the Spirit, especially the ones that empower the believer to minister to others... tongues is the least important gift of all.

Oh Lord that we would all have the gift of "helps"!

Krispy

A couple of points to point out in Scripture. Just because tongues is mentioned last doesn't mean it's the least. (Do you have a Scripture reference that says "tongues is the least of ALL the gifts" and therefore it is of less importance to God and should be to us also?)

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Second. I don't mean to be nit picky here but it doesn't say that the gifts are not available to "all." It just asks do all heal? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The only answer is no, all do not; but it's definitely NOT because God is withholding these gifts from certain individuals.

I believe God has made available each and every gift to each and every individual who desires them.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Depends on how you interpret it. You can speak to me in Swahili and Vietnamese... they are "divers" tongues, [b]and they are unknown tongues to ME[/b].

Fact is there is no clear evidence in scripture that all men will speak in tongues when filled with the Holy Spirit. There is clear evidence (because it painly says so) that not all speak in tongues.

And you conveniently refuse to answer my question about Tozer, Spurgeon, etc...

And I stand by my last point in that post too. Another point you choose to ignore.

:-) ... love ya, bro.

Krispy

Correct....however, when it comes to speaking in "unknown tongues" the Bible is clear that: "..he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD

1 Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Thus, the unknown tongue of scripture is one that is NOT even spoken to man because he speaketh UNTO GOD and NO MAN understandeth. The point of speaking in an unknown tongue is NOT to speak to men anyway, because it is the spirit (inner man) praying and speaking unto God.

I am sorry Krispy, but the clear evidence is NOT what you suggest-the Bible does not say that ALL will NOT speak in (unknown) tongues-the Bible is clear that ALL will NOT speak with DIVERS KINDS OF tongue, yea, but the Bible never says that all will not speak in/with unknown tongues.

Divers kinds of tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Unknown tongues
"other tongues"

All three are all different facets of speaking in/with tongues

I did not REFUSE to answer your question about Tozer, Ravenhill, etc....I just did not deal with that part of your message bacause I do not base my beliefs off of men outside of the scripture. Yes, I truly and greatly appreciate the ministries of Ravenhill, Spurgeon, Tozer, etc...but it would have been a different thing if you would have asked that same question about Paul-but then again, we know he spoke in/with other/unknown tongues. Then again, even the upper room on the day of Pentecost, which refers to ALL who were a part of the Church at that time spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were [b]ALL[/b] with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled [b]ALL[/b] the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon [b]each of them[/b]. 4 And they were [b]ALL[/b] filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

ALL the about 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost AND began to speak with OTHER tongues. This was the WHOLE Church at that time.......

I did not choose to reply to your last statement, because truthfully it does not pertain to me-I have never had this conversation with you (at least not to my knowledge) so I did not find it necessary to answer regarding "it;s always about tongues"- This particular thread lead to the issue of tongues, and that is why I addressed it- the other gifts are not a part of the subject, neither had they come up until you mentioned them. The orginator of this thread was not asking about the other gifts-he was asking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit-...... and I am not even the one who started talking about speaking in tongues-I find that ironic. I didn't start talking about speaking in tongues until after you mentioned it first.........

love you to bro

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Blazed... we'll never agree on tongues in this life, so we'll agree to disagree.

Let me ask you, do you agree to my response about the availability of all gifts to every individual who desires them?

Krispy

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were [b]ALL[/b] with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled [b]ALL[/b] the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon [b]each of them[/b]. 4 And they were [b]ALL[/b] filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

ALL the about 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost AND began to speak with OTHER tongues. This was the WHOLE Church at that time.......

Is this true, yea or nay?

The truth is, you do not know, neither can you say " we will NEVER agree on tongues in this lifetime" because we do not know the future.

I will answer your other question, after you answer the one I just asked you.

In your other post you claimed I ignored some statements of yours, but then you also ignored one of mines. :-P

KrispyKrittr wrote:

No, here is where you are in error. Scripture never says the gifts are available to every individual who [b]desires[/b] them. You will find [b]NO[/b] scripture to support that.

If you do I'll email you an ice cream sundae.

What scripture DOES say is that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts according to HIS will... not ours. The gifts are for the edification of the Church and for the ministry.

Krispy

1 Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and [b]desire spiritual gifts[/b], but rather that ye may prophesy...

If you read what I wrote you would see that I said it is important because it comes from God, just as anything that comes from God is important.

Paul said at the end of chapter 12, after listing all these "miracle" gifts to "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

So obviously the Holy Spirit would agree all gifts from God are good... but some are "best" and some are not. It's not that they are less important (thats you putting words in my mouth)... but truly the Spirit says thru Paul that some are "best". And in context... the "best" are those which empower the believer to minister unto others. Read chapter 13

I’m not arguing with you over the gift of tongues, per se. And you are right, that Paul did indeed say “best gifts” but would you not also agree that no where in Scripture did he infer that any gift was “least?”

I take issue with those who don’t want to speak in tongues, how they adhere to ({edit} Propogate would be a better word), the belief that tongues is “the least” of all the gifts and because of that, that lulls them into believing that they don’t need it.

God will withhold NO GOOD thing from those of us who desire spiritual gifts that God will be glorified in us that we might help others. That is my take on ALL the gifts.

There are these Scriptures...
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
Psalms 84.11

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mt 6:33

God bless you Krispy

PS: I couldn't resist but I guess you owe BlazedbyGod a ice cream sundae!! :-P

What makes one a Christian? Certainly not unknown languages not learned by natural means of birth. Christ is the only true gifted One, He that is born again in you is the first of all the greatest and truly the greatest gift, and He is the only One that gives gifts to men and the Holy Spirit is the only One that distributes the Gifts as He pleases for the upbuilding of the Church the Body of Christ His Church, not ours. We all have the Gifted One in us, if we are born again of the incorruptable Seed of the Father by the Son Jesus Christ, this is a Christian and they and they only will be in the first resurrection, and none of the gifts will give us a ticket to heaven. Only "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", will get you into heavenly places in Christ Jesus, our ticket is already validated by Him that is in us, seated in the Heavenlies as we are with Him NOW.

All do not speak with tongues, all do not prophesy, etc, but all can, because of Christ the Only Gifted One, by the distrubution of any of the gifts by the Holy Spirit as He pleases, not as we please with the evidence of our being in the Holy Spirit, being what is called divers tongues. Which Paul said the ratio is 10,000 to 5 in preference of the operation of tongues, 10,000, to speaking truth with understanding, 5. Tongues mean nothing, five words, unless the Holy Spirit is using them through a born from above believer, to bring others into the Kingdom of Christ in their own language with understanding and truth, for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ His Church which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Krispy wrote: Why dont we spend this much time arguing about the gift "helps"... or "giving"?

It's true. I think these are the two 'gifts' that are greatly overlooked by many believers.

I've been more and more thinking of the lack of 'giving' in my own life.

I've seen many people who are more taken up with the gifts which are more popular rather than seeking to balance the body of Christ by seeking the gifts of 'Helps' and 'Giving' etc...

Just the very fact that so much time is spent debating tongues shows that this is out of balance. Why dont we spend this much time arguing about the gift "helps"... or "giving"?

Because "helps" or "giving" isn't the topic of this thread! We could start a new thread on those! I would take part in it as well! LOL

But please know, I'm not arguing over whether or not Krispy (or anyone else for that matter) should speak in tongues! I, personally, entered this discussion because it was stated that tongues was the least of all the gifts.

Y'all think I'm saying that I dont think tongues is important (which isn't true)... but y'all prove to me that you think tongues is more important than the other gifts.(emphasis by Lysa)

(I don't think BlazedbyGod was trying and) I know for sure that I wasn't trying to prove that tongues is MORE important than the other gifts but as equal and definitely NOT the "least" of all the gifts as previously stated.

As far as 1 Cor 14:1 (Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...) is concerned... it says to desire spiritual gifts, but it does not say or imply that you get specific gifts because you desire them. Thats pretty close to WOF doctrine... "blab it and grab it" heresy.

God forbid I should put words in your mouth!! :) But what exactly does the Bible mean by "desire spiritual gifts" if that's NOT what the Bible means.... to desire them? [dictionary.com says desire means to wish for, or long for, to crave, to want, and request.]

And also would you please provide the verse that tells us that even though we are instructed to desire them we won't get what we "desire?" [And by the way, I DO NOT BELIEVE in WOF doctrine in any way, shape or form.] I just want to know why "desire" doesn't mean desire anymore.

I agree with you that I love you guys in the love of Christ as well. I really would like to know your heart, I'm not out rightly trying to be disagreeable here!

Thank you

I am not aking whether Christians who are not baptized with the Holy Ghost will to heaven or not, but if they will go in the rapture. There are those (NOT I) who believe that they who are sanctified and/or filled with the Holy Ghost are going in the rapture and the Christians who are not will go through the tribulation.

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

We would have to agree that the baptism of the Holy Ghost was separate from their conversion.

I am not claiming to hold the belief of only Holy Ghost baptized christian being the only ines going in the rapture.

Desire spiritual gifts, absolutely. But Paul also ends chapter 12 and seguays into chapter 13 with "Desire the best gifts (meaning not all are the "best" gifts!). And now I will show you a more excellent way..."

I did a quick search on the word "best":

"more useful, more serviceable, more advantageous, more excellent"

And it is also translated variously as:

"best, better, greater, more important"

Personally, I do not regard any gift greater than another, in themselves, as they are all given from above ([b]James 1:17[/b]). As you well marked that every gift is given as the Holy Spirit wills and not as we humans so desire in our sentiments -- considering those things that might bring us the greater honor.

However, in that regard, as He wills, there are greater or better or best gifts to be given in consideration of each member of the body of Christ. (A tongue isn't going to be very effective as a hand, will it? Or an eye that tastes rather than sees? Indeed not.)

Every gift has its purpose and function sanctified unto the Lord. And every gift is profitable for every good work and for the witness that Jesus of Nazareth is both Christ and Lord.

What is the more excellent way? Love. What giftings focus on love? Helps... Hospitality... Giving... Evangelism... etc etc... the gifts that dont get discussed much, at least not as much as the gifts that get us noticed by those around us.

I would have to make a correction on this idea. I do not believe Paul was trying to say, "desire those gifts that focus on love." But much rather, "[b]let every gift be found in love.[/b]"

The fruits of the Spirit are the foundation for the gifts of the Spirit. They are to go hand in hand. Just as Paul describes to the Corinthians, "many members" yet "one body" and "many gifts" yet "One Spirit."

And, even, by One Spirit baptized into one body ([b]1 Corinthians 12:13[/b]).

None-the-less, excellent point on bringing it back to the true focus and value of the "less honorable" gifts and members (as it so seems in our eyes).

[b]1 Corinthians 12
22.[/b] On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
[b]23.[/b] and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,
[b]24.[/b] whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
[b]25.[/b] so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

In my opinion, if "Helps... Hospitality... Giving... Evangelism... etc etc..." were actively being pursued in holiness then the gifts of the Spirit would be in common abundance. As I said, the Spirit of Love is the foundation by which all the gifts spring forth.

Re:
I am not aking whether Christians who are not baptized with the Holy Ghost will to heaven or not, but if they will go in the rapture. There are those (NOT I) who believe that they who are sanctified and/or filled with the Holy Ghost are going in the rapture and the Christians who are not will go through the tribulation.

Personally, I give no credence to teachings on the rapture. Will it happen, yes, I believe so. When? -- pre, mid, post, etc. -- no idea.

I have heard arguments for many variations, ok, they all sound fine. Does that mean they are all true? No. Only that the truth is still sealed up. And that is the main problem I have with teachings on Revelation and end time prophecies. I have never, ever!, heard anyone talk about how there are still things sealed up that the Father has fixed by His own authority -- wherein it is not our place to know until the day it is revealed from heaven. Rather, there are commentaries and (probably) children's coloring books and movies all over the place as though it was all black-and-white, clear as day; "we got it all figured out."

So, the question of how the rapture shall happen is one question. But now you have compounded the mystery with another mystery, by asking, if there are Christians who are NOT baptized and/or filled with the Holy Ghost.

We might argue, as we say life begins at conception so likewise a Christian is born-again at the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Or, perhaps, there is a distinction between [b]a believer "born of the Spirit"[/b] and a [b]"Spirit-filled believer"[/b] -- [u]not in question of salvation[/u], but for the purpose of being a witness with power from on high. And these are discussions concerning the "Second Blessing."

There is no question as to whether any Christian is being saved unto the Day the Lord returns.

[b]Romans 8
16.[/b] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

And, if we have not this witness, then we are not Christian. Well said, brother Krispy.

However, such a question within a question on top of a question is all beyond me -- and I honestly wouldn't give much ear to anyone who says they have this figured out. Just like with most end time prophecies. They sound interesting, there might be some good scripture to support, but it isn't something we can necessarily base our lives upon.

I will say as Martin Luther said, "There are only two days on my calendar: Today and that Day (Judgment Day)."

And, again, as Jesus commands us, "do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Don't worry about the rapture, concern yourself with faith, hope, and love because our Lord Jesus is coming quickly to judge the living and the dead.

Christ is the one who baptizes with the Holy Ghost. In the book of acts of the apostles there are instances where people were baptized and filled with Holy Ghost the moment they were converted and believed Jesus as Lord and Savior, Cornelius and his household is one example.Its really difficult to find support from the book of acts and letters of the apostles that Baptism in the holy Spirit is a post conversion experiece.

We are commanded by Paul to continually be filled with the Spirit but not to look for an after conversion experience of being Baptized with the Spirit.There is something mystical about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. We often limit the truth of scripture by our experience and reason and theological convictions.

There is one baptism, one faith and one Lord. The moment we were truly regenerated by the holy Spirit and born from above the Holy Spirit came to indwell us, comfort us, guide us to all truth.
Indwelling Christ and abiding in Christ and bearing fruit and doing the will of God in our daily life or being filled with the pure love of God are evidences that the Spirit is in control of your life. At the same time the daily need to be filled with Holy Spirit is necessary.

Many godly men like Jonathan Edwards, Wesley, Finney, Moody,Evan Roberts,Duncan Campbell, Andrew Murray,Ravenhill,Jonathan Goforth, Robert M. MCcheyne, all of them had powerful post conversion experiences that changed, transformed, empowered then to be powerful witnesses for Christ.What was after all the great awakening in 18th century in America, the methodist revival in Great Britain, or the Second Great awakening in America and the subsequent revivals in 19th and 20th century in America, Great Britain and on the mission fields in China, Korea, India, Africa but a powerful pentecost of induviduals and local churches?

Alas we often are victimes of our traditions and prejudices and theological systems that harden our hearts, puff us up with biblical knowledge but make us proud of our stoic stand for orthodoxy. Knowledge is not the fulfilment of the law but God pure love shead abroad on the heart of christian and its daily application is the fulfillment of the law. The pharises in Jesus time were the very radical and uncompromising for the traditions of their forfathers but they were blind and whitewashed tombs. God save us from such a pharisaic spirit of self-exaltaion or being religiously proud of our evangelical inherintance, or our self-sufficency, or our dead and suffocating orthodoxy.

Whenever rapture will take place i can't tell it, but one thing i know Jesus is comming for his beautiful Bride to take her up to heaven, he is comming for the overcommers, for those who have the pure robe of righteousness, those who have received him in their hearts as their justifier and sanctifier. May our lamps be burning and shining till his second commimg, may he save us from lukewarmness, spiritual blindness and self-love.

Jesus knocking at the door of the church, at the door of each lukewarm christian today, what a tragedy! The presence of God is gone from among many in our midts and many dont even perceive it in their daily routine. We need the holy silence, we have lost the closet of communion and intimacy with God, we have lost the fear of God, the vision of holiness. In our fast paced and noisy activities we have ignored the small and gentle voice of the Holy Spirit.
We have lost the anointing, the first love for our Savior, the simplicity and humility of the child of God. We have lost a humble and contrite heart, we have lost the instinct to go agaist the worldly tide, lost the awareness of the presence of God.

This is the kind of gift we should be stirring up in each other, as Paul stirred up in Timothy.

2 Timothy 1:1-9 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

""Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.""

"which was given us in Christ Jesus, "Before the world began".

Ephesians 1:1-9 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (((((According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:))))) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: Check out all the H'.

This is the gift of God we should be stirring up in each other. We should not be arguing about who has the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and which are the best. For they are not our gifts, but of the Gifted One, Jesus Christ. If we stir up the Gift of Christ in us, then the Holy Spirit will be able to use all the gifts as He pleases for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, His Church. This is the, "purpose in Himself".

"according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,"

Where is the mystery and Glory of God? "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Leave the working of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Gifted One Himself and the Holy Spirit will make sure that all the gifts Christ are used according to His Good Pleasure, and none will lack in the building of the Kingdom of Christ in Heavenly Places where we are already seated, with, in, through and by Him, the Spirit of Christ that dwelleth in us.

With out His Spirit we are none of His no matter what the gifts we think we have. With out His Gifts given to men and operated in the Holy Spirit, all gifts are carnally operated of man in his own self exhalation.

Romans 8:6-12 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness, (no gifts, except counterfeit of the devil for the dead body of sin), But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

But to live after the Spirit of Christ in us.

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (praying in tongues does nothing) He maketh intercession for us with groanings which ((((cannot)))) be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Let the Spirit operate the Gifts and we will not even know when they are being used, but they will be used by The Holy Spirit to build up the Body of Christ, His Church. Seek Him first and all these things will be added unto you, not for our profit but for His. It was He that went to the Cross and took us with Him.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ Jesus the Gifted One:

Phillip