Obama and Truth Truck attend rally in Fayetteville, NC

Late Saturday evening (Oct. 18) I received an e-mail informing me that Barak Obama was holding a rally in Fayetteville, NC on the following morning. I quickly rearranged my plans and grabbed three hours of sleep before heading for NC. As we entered Fayetteville at approximately 8am, I gave my friend, Johnny Hunter, a call to see if he knew about the rally. He had just finished praying with his wife that the Father would send someone to Fayetteville to speak out on behalf of the babies and our blessed Messiah when the phone rang. They told us that we were the answer to their prayer. HalleluYah! We drove over to the LEARN office and picked up four large boxes of prolife literature geared for the African American population.

[image][img]http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/images/TT%20in%20parking%20lot.JPG[/img]

I prayed as I approached the Coliseum that I would be able to get into the parking lot and find a parking spot where the masses of Obama dicsiples would see our message. Everything worked perfectly and we parked in a spot in full view.

[image][img]http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/images/TT%20in%20Fayetteville.JPG[/img]

After our arrival, Christian and I got busy passing out the flyers. By 2:00pm we had put 2,000 pieces of literature into the hands of the attendees. It was amazing to hear the large number of black Obama supporters who said that Barak was strongly pro-life. There seems to be a veil of darkness over their minds and that which is obviously not true is strongly believed. Pray that truth would find it's way into the hearts of the people.

WHY OBAMA RALLIES ?

Our outreaches to "political functions" are in no way politically motivated. Truth is truth whether you speak at a political rally or in a back alley. John the Baptist (Mark 6:18) and the Messiah himself (Luke 13:32) spoke the truth to the lost whether they were homeless or political leaders. The eyes of the nation are on the election campaign and crowds flock to hear their candidate ramble on about how he intends to solve all of the nations problems. It is very effective to let the lost gather into large groups and then use those venues to proclaim the Gospel and Biblical truth to them. The one thing that is truly needed is the Gospel. You can be sure you won't hear the Good News of salvation coming from those on the stage.

Is this truck on a mission for Christ? Are people being converted by seeing this truck? Is Christ being glorified every time the world sees this driving up and down the streets?

Hi Paula4jc...

paula4jc wrote:
Is this truck on a mission for Christ? Are people being converted by seeing this truck? Is Christ being glorified every time the world sees this driving up and down the streets?

Just a thought.

"Then again, perhaps the lives of unborn children are being spared a horrible death? Perhaps those who were contemplating abortion might reconsider...and then consider the reason that it is wrong? And just perhaps...maybe people seeing a human being that is formed inside of the womb might realize just how fearfully and wonderfully we are made?

Just a thought."

And a very well reasoned thought at that.

Why do we show the bloody photographs of the murdered preborn?

“A picture is worth a thousand words”

In this case however, it is worth much more. Approximately 1.2 million preborn babies are murdered by abortion every year in America. An atrocity of this magnitude must not remain hidden. These photographs expose the suffering of the preborn child.

Let us briefly explain our purpose for displaying these photographs.

Ending Censorship

We display these photos because the media has censored the preborn child from the “abortion debate”. The American press refuses to show the American people what these babies look like who are dying in the womb. We are simply attempting to bypass that media blackout by going to the streets and displaying these photographs.

Now the American people can see for themselves exactly what a preborn child looks like after he or she has been in the hands of an abortionist.

Most believe the myth that abortion is just the removal of some benign tissue. These photographs expose just how mythical such thinking is. The displaying of these photographs reveals to this nation that a great holocaust is going on in our midst, that our indifference towards it must cease, and that we must act on behalf of those who are oppressed.

Faithful to Messiah

Messiah taught, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If we were in the position of our preborn neighbor threatened with an unjust death, we would hope someone would speak up for us, so we speak up for them.

Some say our photographs are disgusting and hurt our Christian witness. Our response: have you ever seen a pretty picture of a murder? Murder is disgusting; abortion is murder; therefore, our pictures are disgusting. Beyond that, what hurts our Christian witness more – being silent while our neighbor is unjustly killed or exposing the atrocities being committed against our neighbor (Ephesians 5:11)? We think the former.

We also display these photographs to inform our nation that it has violated God’s Law, and to therefore call its people to repentance.

Our photographs stand as a haunting indictment upon our nation.

What a pathetic people we are if we want to tolerate the oppression of an entire people group, but then become outraged at someone for displaying the suffering of that people group. It is important to note that the displaying of these photographs has saved many preborn babies from death by abortion and has spared many women and men the grief of having aborted their own son or daughter.

Historical Precedents

There are many historical precedents for displaying such photographs. Just as we have seen photographs of lynched black men, Jewish corpses, and lifeless Vietnamese children, so we need to look at the frozen horrid images of preborn babies torn from their mother’s wombs.

At the end of WWII, our American soldiers marched the citizens of Germany past the remains of those who died in the death camps. They marched men, women, and children past the remains of those who died in the death camps. Why did they do it? Because those citizens all stood guilty for having tolerated the atrocities that went on in their midst. So it is in America today, we all stand guilty for being silent while this atrocity goes on in our nation.

Matthew Brady, the famed Civil War photographer, took and displayed many photographs of the war dead. In 1862, the New York Times wrote the following about Brady’s photographs:

“The dead of the battlefield come up to us very rarely, even in dreams. We see the list in the morning paper at breakfast, but dismiss its recollection with the coffee. We recognize the battlefield as reality, but it stands as a remote one. It is like a funeral next door. It attracts your attention, but it does not enlist your sympathy. But it is very different when the hearse stops at your own door and the corpse is carried over your own threshold. Mr. Brady has done something to bring us the terrible reality and earnestness or the war. If he has not brought bodies and laid them in our dooryards and along our streets, he has done something very like it.”

So our photographs have brought you “the terrible reality and earnestness” of abortion.

Our prayer is that people would be moved with compassion for the helpless preborn when they see these photographs and act to see this bloodshed outlawed. Otherwise, God will use His sword of justice and bring retribution upon a nation of people whose hands are covered with blood.

When something is so horrifying we can’t stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn’t be tolerating it.

Will some one answer the questions? It's believer’s duty to labor in the harvest field snatching souls from the fire. Redemption comes first in change of heart not change of action, thus, point not at the log in the eyes of the unrighteous. Woe! Woe! The sin of your land has comes to maturity rend your garment as the hour is neigh.

Brother,

You couldn't have picked a better place to bring your truck, because those that support Barak Obama are also giving their approval for abortion, whether they know it or not. America doesn't need any more liberal Supreme Court Justices who have no fear of God or respect for life , and that is what we are going to get if we elect another pro abortion president.

Paula, My Bible stilll says this in Proverbs 24: 11- 12 (NASB):

Deliver those who are being taken away to death,
And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back.
12If you say, "See, we did not know this,"
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work?

The task for the Christian varies from one person to another. Just check out Ephesians 4.

ginnyrose

Denny,

Thanks for updating us on this rally and for standing up for those who cannot defend themselves.

It is frightening that so many who support Obama don't know his pro abortion record. Here's some info on his stance...
Dr. Robert George, professor of Jurisprudence and Director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University, analyzes Senator Obama's legislative positions on abortion and the unborn:
But it gets even worse. Senator Obama, despite the urging of pro-life members of his own party, has not endorsed or offered support for the Pregnant Women Support Act, the signature bill of Democrats for Life, meant to reduce abortions by providing assistance for women facing crisis pregnancies. In fact, Obama has opposed key provisions of the Act, including providing coverage of unborn children in the State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), and informed consent for women about the effects of abortion and the gestational age of their child. This legislation would not make a single abortion illegal. It simply seeks to make it easier for pregnant women to make the choice not to abort their babies. Here is a concrete test of whether Obama is ''pro-choice'' rather than pro-abortion. He flunked. Even Senator Edward Kennedy voted to include coverage of unborn children in S-CHIP. But Barack Obama stood resolutely with the most stalwart abortion advocates in opposing it....
You may be thinking, it can't get worse than that. But it does.
For several years, Americans have been debating the use for biomedical research of embryos produced by in vitro fertilization (originally for reproductive purposes) but now left in a frozen condition in cryopreservation units. President Bush has restricted the use of federal funds for stem-cell research of the type that makes use of these embryos and destroys them in the process. I support the President's restriction, but some legislators with excellent pro-life records, including John McCain, argue that the use of federal money should be permitted where the embryos are going to be discarded or die anyway as the result of the parents' decision. Senator Obama, too, wants to lift the restriction.
But Obama would not stop there. He has co-sponsored a bill-strongly opposed by McCain-that would authorize the large-scale industrial production of human embryos for use in biomedical research in which they would be killed. In fact, the bill Obama co-sponsored would effectively require the killing of human beings in the embryonic stage that were produced by cloning. It would make it a federal crime for a woman to save an embryo by agreeing to have the tiny developing human being implanted in her womb so that he or she could be brought to term. This ''clone and kill'' bill would, if enacted, bring something to America that has heretofore existed only in China-the equivalent of legally mandated abortion. In an audacious act of deceit, Obama and his co-sponsors misleadingly call this an anti-cloning bill. But it is nothing of the kind. What it bans is not cloning, but allowing the embryonic children produced by cloning to survive.
Can it get still worse? Yes.
Decent people of every persuasion hold out the increasingly realistic hope of resolving the moral issue surrounding embryonic stem-cell research by developing methods to produce the exact equivalent of embryonic stem cells without using (or producing) embryos. But when a bill was introduced in the United States Senate to put a modest amount of federal money into research to develop these methods, Barack Obama was one of the few senators who opposed it. From any rational vantage point, this is unconscionable. Why would someone not wish to find a method of producing the pluripotent cells scientists want that all Americans could enthusiastically endorse? Why create and kill human embryos when there are alternatives that do not require the taking of nascent human lives? It is as if Obama is opposed to stem-cell research unless it involves killing human embryos.

Hi Paula...

paula4jc wrote:
Will some one answer the questions? It's believer’s duty to labor in the harvest field snatching souls from the fire. Redemption comes first in change of heart not change of action, thus, point not at the log in the eyes of the unrighteous. Woe! Woe! The sin of your land has comes to maturity rend your garment as the hour is neigh.

It is possible to reap the harvest while at the same time protecting and crying out against the murder of the preborn. In fact, didn't Christ command us to not only preach -- but to feed the pour, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc... (Matthew 25)? We can do both. We can preach the Gospel to all creatures while preaching against the slaughter of unborn human lives.

"I tell you the truth: Whatsoever ye did for the least of these...you did it unto me." Matthew 25:40

I really do not know how any christian votes for obama because of his stance on abortion and civil union for homosexuals. He is allowing corruption in our nation by allowing it to happen. If he gets into the office, our christian life as we know it and our Godly heritage is going to be snatched from us as we know it possibly. I really don't see Mccain being to much better with the pride he has shown during his debates either but i refuse to vote for obama, if you have heard any of his speeches you would guess he is against christianity. I have a bad feeling about it, and so many black christians our voting for him, its real nonsense and sin.

paula4jc wrote:
Will some one answer the questions? It's believer’s duty to labor in the harvest field snatching souls from the fire. Redemption comes first in change of heart not change of action, thus, point not at the log in the eyes of the unrighteous. Woe! Woe! The sin of your land has comes to maturity rend your garment as the hour is neigh.

Good point paula. I was thinking the same thing.
What's the difference bewteen Obama and McCain anyway? Are they running for presdincy because of their own glory or for Jesus's glory? The answer is obvious. Jesus does not recieve glory because men are keeping the law. No.. He does not recieve glory when we acomplish somethig great and stand up and say "I give glory to God, for giving me this medal." The only way Jesus recieves glory is, 1, by the giving of our true hearts,(worshiping in spirit and in truth) 2 by the evangelizing of others and turning their hearts unto Jesus. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. It doesn't matter if the goverenment calls itself christian, cause christianity is not about some structural "lets follow the Bible" or about church culture. Its about the word having come to life. It's about Jesus meeting this incredibly undeciptable sinner, poor and weary as he is, and changing all the values from within. The object of his love is changed. The master of his life is totally changed. All his values are changed.

So the point is, Christianity is close to dead today because most christians think that a change in behavior (the law) is what people need.
Nevermind the fact that even though we have the law, we don't have the power to follow it. If we did have the capacity to get salvation through actions, why would we need Jesus anyway? All our righteousness is like rags! thats why we need Jesus.

Nothing changes a man. The fact that he has sinned one sin, does not change a man. The only that can change a man is the true gospel that shines on the naked heart of a humble man.

But I still think it is possible for the Holy Spirit to strike a persons heart to true repentance of his own being through what your doing. But this is if you are relying on the Holy Spirit, who teaches about sin, and not gory images. If it's the goryiness if the image that you're trusting.. Then the Lord cannot work. But if it's not in your bow or horses your trusting but upon Jesus, who is faithful.. I'm sure he'll do amazing things through your ministry.

We have so many programs.. So many gadgets that we trust. when its the holy spirit that we are to trust. The lack of trust in Him has brought all these "courses" into the christian circle..

But this is kind of political though, don't you think. Don't vote for Obama, he's an abortionist, vote for Mc Cain is what your saying, regardless of your intentions.

Jesus never worked in the ministry by governmental powers. That is not how Jesus ministered...He was always focused on meeting that samaritan women.. or that tax collector.. He wants to meet that lost person...

Um.. I don't mean to be critical brothers.. And I do realize that it's about a persons ministry we're talking about, so I want to be very careful, as only the Lord knows the hearts of men. If what I said above does not involve you, then thats so great! I really hope that through your life an poor in spirit man will see the incredible love of Jesus.

Reply to jiyouk & paula4jc

Have either one of you considered the business opportunity you are missing? With your heartless attitudes you could become partners and design and operate a crematory specially built to cremate the bodies of the slaughtered babies.

As far as your religion of snatching souls from the fire.

James 1- 27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Eddie

As far as your religion of snatching souls from the fire.

James 1- 27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Eddiequote]

Driving this truck around this town is fullfiling James1-27.

The sins of your land of idolatry have come to maturity. Weep and howl you nation of idolaters. The hour has come for the foundation of your high places to crumble. Woe! Woe! The hour has come!i

Reply to paula4jc

Have you have bought into the hate America crowd's agenda also?

I live in a rural area of America but I would dare say you could find a lot more than ten righteous men in the area.
Eddie

Eddie

"The dead of the battlefield come up to us very rarely, even in dreams. We see the list in the morning paper at breakfast, but dismiss its recollection with the coffee. We recognize the battlefield as reality, but it stands as a remote one. It is like a funeral next door. It attracts your attention, but it does not enlist your sympathy. But it is very different when the hearse stops at your own door and the corpse is carried over your own threshold.

[i]It is the commonness of death, which deprives it
of its extreme dreadfulness. If death happened in
our world only once in a century, it would be felt
like the shock of an earthquake; and would hush
the inhabitants of earth into a breathless silence,
while the echoes of the knell of the departed soul
were reverberating around the globe![/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14907&forum=45&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Death awaits[/url]

See also;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=12137&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go] Understanding Mortification[/url]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Utter madness has so desensitized mankind in general that some sort of shock to the system, some lasting image impressed upon the mind, without [i]commercial[/i] breaks to further the dulling of reality seems the last, best way to shake up the sleepers. Historically it is to forget, to shrink back and to hide the conscience from atrocities, to put death off to some far advanced region ...

At the end of WWII, our American soldiers marched the citizens of Germany past the remains of those who died in the death camps. They marched men, women, and children past the remains of those who died in the death camps. Why did they do it? Because those citizens all stood guilty for having tolerated the atrocities that went on in their midst. So it is in America today, we all stand guilty for being silent while this atrocity goes on in our nation.

It is with a sense of indignation that I feel compelled to clear up some misconceptions that are being forwarded here. Ignorance is one thing and it is forgivable for not knowing. However at the same time to take some sort of high moral ground, siting behind a keyboard and postulating ... I find it haughty and proud. Before one starts shooting from the hip or presuming with a question that is tainted by inference after a statement of how things ought to be done ...

Here is Denny's site;

[url=http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/]Life & Liberty Ministries[/url]

To be truthful I found the article regarding the senators record unfortunate as well. For the truth that is there the unnecessary hyperbole and slant ... Why must this be done? It doesn't matter what it is, what matter is under discussion credibility always gets knocked when things have to have a flourish or embellishment.

It also leads to a warning again about political matters in this forum. It's a fine line at times and this is a very perfect example of where it may be allowed [i]if[/i] it can be kept to the subject matter at hand.

Awhile back there was a posting on abortion and the positions of the candidates and I recall being very vocal about the horrors of the matter, the [i]subject[/i] matter. It still seems crass to put it in such terms when the stark reality is so atrocious, it is [i]life[/i] and [i]death[/i]. More succinctly it is [i]death[/i] before [i]life[/i].

[i] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.[/i]

Afterword, days later was thinking on all this and it occurred to me that there was an exact correlation to Mat 5:28 ([i]But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.[/i])

That correlation was to answer the nefarious question of "When does life begin?" and the decision to kill the life that is yet not born, starts in the exact same place.

If the issue here is opposing the the abortion industry as not being a spiritual mission, may I share an email I got this morning from another group who go to AB clinics and pray. It is headed by David Bereit. Here goes:

"I have an URGENT prayer request...

On Saturday a medical worker at a Planned Parenthood abortion center where a 40 Days for Life campaign is happening approached the prayer volunteers outside.

She said that Planned Parenthood had told its workers that they would be immediately fired if they ever talked to those on the sidewalk, but she felt drawn to them -- and she shared that she desperately wants out of her job.

She explained that after she started working at
Planned Parenthood earlier this year, the abortion business assigned her the gruesome task of counting the baby body parts following each abortion to make sure everything was removed from the mother.

What she has seen inside the walls of Planned Parenthood is horrific.

She then shared that several weeks ago a young woman sat before her registering for an abortion and said, "I'm so conflicted, should I do this or not?"

She leaned forward and quietly told her, "Don't do this." The girl left, her baby alive within her.

A co-worker overheard and reported her to the
abortion center's supervisor who wrote her up and put a stern warning in her employment file.

She asked the 40 Days for Life prayer volunteers if she could meet Monday with someone who might be able to help her -- and the time she had available was the exact time that Jim Pinto, pastoral associate for Priests for Life, was there in town for his visit to the 40 Days for Life location.

Jim stopped everything else to pray for her, with
her, and over her. He also connected her with an
organization called The Centurions that helps to
bring abortion providers out of the abortion industry where they can find forgiveness and healing in Christ and restore their sense of self-worth.

The 40 Days for Life volunteers are now taking up a collection to provide for her short-term needs so she can leave her job immediately and they are helping her find another job quickly since she is the sole provider for her four daughters and needs income.

Sandra, there is a real possibility that these faithful 40 Days for Life volunteers may be able to help her walk away from the abortion industry TODAY!

Praise God for what He is doing in this woman's life,and please keep her -- and this situation -- in your prayers throughout the day."

And reports like this are common from this group. This is just the most recent one. And if any take offense at the Catholics' participation in this ministry, all I can think of is "Shame on Evangelicals for their apathy!"

ginnyrose

Hi jiyouk...

From this sort of logic, I might wonder if it is EVER proper to point out sin? Tell me: Do you correct your children, your close family members, your neighbors, your community, etc... about right and wrong? If your community was going to pass an ordinance that would remove your pet dog or cat from your home -- would you just give them up (without voicing your concern)? Why must we be silent when we see certain citizens and neighbors (elected as government lawmakers and judges) who promote the murder of millions of unborn babies?

Jesus never worked in the ministry by governmental powers. That is not how Jesus ministered...He was always focused on meeting that samaritan women.. or that tax collector.. He wants to meet that lost person...

Nothing changes a man. The fact that he has sinned one sin, does not change a man. The only that can change a man is the true gospel that shines on the naked heart of a humble man.

By saying that we should not do such about something as horrific and evil in the sight of God as ABORTION (the unbelievably painful murder of the smallest and most helpless people in our society), then why should we EVER preach in a manner that exposes sin for what it is?

Let me be clear: No one is saying that we can "legislate" righteousness in the heart. However, we can proclaim the truth. We can proclaim that truth with our words, our voices, signs upon our vehicles, and even our voices in elections (also called [i]votes[/i]). Can we legislate righteousness with the law of the land? I don't know. I guess it would be a whole lot better than the current attempt by the Left to legislate [u]unrighteousness[/u].

Believe me: There are groups in this nation who almost PRAY that Christians would simply "shut up." They so desire that Christians would keep their mouths shut, refrain from voting and keep their beliefs to themselves. Abortionists, homosexual activists, those who wish to rid this nation of any hint of Christianity from its origins or infrastructure, commercial and "artistic" pornographers seeking government approval, people who want to call any disagreement with social liberalism as "hate speech," etc... -- they WANT for us to remain silent!

I find it so amazing that there are so many believers living in this nation who almost agree. Yet many of the preachers who have endured the persecutions and tribulations in closed nations almost urge believers to get involved! Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, founder of [i]Voice of the Martyrs[/i], used to urge believers to write to our Congressmen for the release of imprisoned believers around the world. He actually testified before the U.S. Congress (even removing his shirt to reveal the scars that he received from his years of torture in a communist prison) in the hope that the U.S. Government would act on the behalf of the persecuted Church around the world! Once, he was arrested for taking the bullhorn out of the hands of a hippy protester at an antiwar rally in Berkeley during the 1960s. Not only did Brother Wurmbrand preach against the persecution of the Church -- but against the errors of communism! Regardless of whether you feel that he was right or wrong, he felt an urgency regarding such things.

Other representatives of believers and Church leaders have voiced the same sort of concern. It seems so easy for us to remain quiet in the West -- because we aren't really risking our physical lives. But what is the problem with trying to save millions of unborn babies? What is the problem with trying to save a mother from making a decision to murder her child? Can't we proclaim the Gospel while still pointing out this merciless slaughter? I think that this is the error of your argument. We can do both. We can preach the risen Savior while pointing to the blatant examples of sin that separate this world from God.

Question: Do you think there were any women during the first century that had abortions? Or were all unwanted children just exposed?

Just a thought.

And a high percentage of those that seek abortions are religious people, among them Evangelical Christians. And many of those had been pro-life but now find themselves in a predicament because of fornication.

Steve, you are right: immorality - fornication and adultery - are the underlying sins propelling the abortion industry. These sins have become acceptable, shame no longer stalks unrepentent sinners because of the acceptance found in churches.

ginnyrose

you find problems on both candidates. But i have this real bad feeling that president obama is going to lead us even farther down and that our freedom of religion is soon going to be taken away. So many our blinded by satan today.

Krispy and Chris, amen, amen, and amen!

Hitler + Stalin + Mao Tse Tong = 30-60 million murders over a combined 50 years

America since Roe v. Wade (35 years): 50 million unborn

Who will fall under greater judgment?

And Obama wants to extend it to newborns, and state-mandate it for "stem cell research", making it illegal to carry "designated embryos" to term.

He is a monster, leading the rest of this country and its politicians.

From this sort of logic, I might wonder if it is EVER proper to point out sin? Tell me: Do you correct your children, your close family members, your neighbors, your community, etc... about right and wrong?

Wow. Didn't know that so many people here would disagree. :)
I do understand what you're saying.
And I think that many of you have a heart for the aborted babies, and I respect that and think that I should seek the Lord to grant me such compassionate hearts.
One thing though before I go on. Are aborted babies without sin? Are they innocent?
The bible tells us that sin is not only a violation of the ten commandments, but it's when the center of your heart is cut away from the savior.
David cries out "Surely I was sinful from my mothers womb."
I'm sorry that this is the way it is, but just because a baby didn't sin, it doesn't mean he is sinless. When we talk about sin, we're not talking about a person violating ethics or moral principals regarded by society. We're talking about the self-centered, wanting to be God, man that you are regardelss of what sin you've commited.
Thats why the bible says many times sin, not sins, because we're not refering to snatching cookies from the jar, or even murder.. or even abortion. Our sin is so much greater than that.

Hitler, Stalin.. When I came before the cross, I wept realizing that I was on the same page as those evil brutes. The sin that I had.. It was the same as their sin. It is this revealing of the man of sin that makes people repent.

Sure, realizing that you've violated the law of God helps, but repenting from sin is not only talking about a repentance of your individual sins, but of your entire being.

And I do agree that we do need the law.. We need to enforce the right and the wrong. We need to go against abortion. But remember how Jesus said he'll write the law in our hearts and the people will no longer teach each other "sin no more" for from the least to the greatest, they will all know me. Jeremiah 33: 31 or somewhere there..
So although it is needed, that is not the essense of the gospel, the bible, or Jesus. (which esentially are the same:)
So the thing is, if we have such hearts toward aborted babies.. I think we should have the exact same heart toward souls who are going to hell. Because both of them are in sin and are in need of salvation.

The gospel.
What is the gospel?
Good news.
There are many good news in our lives.
Maybe we've got a new job, married a wonderful lady, got into Harvard.. So on.
But what is the ultimate good news that is unchanging, everlasting, and good news toward all?
It is that Jesus came down to save sinner, of which I am the worst.

What changes the sinful heart of man?
His effort to gain righteousness?
Some positive thinking maybe?
Confessing the the word of Faith?
Some counselling program?
Accountability partners?
no..
Nothing is able to change a man from the inside out expect the gospel.. except that news of Jesus.
As long as we're not telling people about the ultimate undescribable.. the wonder of his amazing cross.. About Jesus.. We're not bringing about true change.
Yes, the change is there for a time, temporarily.. But a total transformation of a being from a man of sin, to a bride of Christ is not there.

We need the law, but let us not forget that it is not the law that changes man. Correcting your child is all good, and is definetly needed, but the that child needs to meet Jesus, no matter how "good" he may be.
There is no one righteous not even one.
Is this only a verse out there in the Bible, but something that we do not truly believe in?
Why would we need Jesus to die on the cross if there are other means in which the heart of man is changed?

It is only through the gospel that a man that loved the world, a man that was the master of himself, a man who had the values of this world, is totally transformed to loving only jesus, setting Jesus as his master, and having a value that esteems only the gospel.
So he consdiers everything "rubbish" compared to the greatness of knowing Him.
So that in comparison it even seems like you hate your mother, father, and so on. (whoever does not hate his mother... um. don't know exactly where that verse is)

For the Jews want signs and Greeks wisdom, but we preach christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and Greeks, but the power of GOd to us who are being saved.

THe Gospel is wonderful news... And thats what we're to preach.

And that's what I'm saying. Hope that going against abortion brings out a true change in individuals, a true deep repentance that makes a person cling to that cross which is his only hope...

[b]Obama and LLM visit Richmond, VA[/b]
[b]They chanted, "Obama Save Us! Obama Save Us ![/b]

"Obama save us!

Obama save us!"

This was actually one of the chants that resounded around the Richmond Coliseum this morning. I know it sounds outrageous, but it's true.

For the third time in one week, LLM has had the opportunity to reach out to the lost at an Obama rally. This time it was at the Richmond Coliseum here in Virginia.

It is hard to explain the devotion that Obama's followers have for him. Rather than looking to the true Savior for hope, multitudes are seeking for hope from a man who despises the God of the Bible.

The Truth Truck was on hand and most of the Obama followers in attendance saw the grisly reality of abortion.

[image][img]http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/images/Hosanna%20in%20Richmond.JPG[/img]

[b]Literature was distributed to thousands[/b]

Thousands of pieces of pro-life literature and Gospel tracts were put into peoples' hands. It was great to see people all around reading the literature as they waited for the doors to open for the event. Pray that the truth they saw and read will take root in good soil. Today the outreach team consisted of eleven Christians. The coliseum was filled to capacity with a huge crowd outside listening to the speeches over loudspeakers.

[image][img]http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/images/Reading%20lit%20in%20Richmond.JPG[/img]

[b]GO! GO! GO![/b]

The battle for the hearts of the lost in our nation will only be won through prayer "and" action. The Scriptures command us to "GO". Lies concerning Biblical truth and God's standards for humanity are spreading like wildfire by very zealous deceivers. Information alone won't change a heart. A well rounded presentation of the Gospel along with answers to honest questions is an effective method of outreach. To "reason" and to "contend for the faith" must go hand in hand with our "praying for the lost."

Too often we can convince ourselves that we are doing all we should to fulfill the great commission. We can hang out with those who also feel that they are sufficiently active when all the while we only deceive ourselves. If we used Messiah, the Disciples, and the first followers of the risen Savior as our examples we may find ourselves ashamed at our actual lack of "Christlikeness". I'm not saying that "activity" equals holiness and obedience but inactivity and complacency where never referred to as fruits of the Spirit.

Brothers and Sisters, commit yourselves to seek after a life that resembles our Messiah and cultivate a true love for the lost who stand condemned without the Gospel. Once we begin to actually think as He thinks and act as He acts, we may find our lives being drastically changed and we may even find ourselves being misunderstood by those who are comfortable just playing church.

I pray that the Father turns up the refining fire in our lives even though the thought really does scare me somewhat. I have a lot that needs to burn up. Let's get busy and burn. Better now than later.

[url=http//www.lifeandlibertyministries.com]Life and Liberty Ministries[/url]

Hitler, Stalin.. When I came before the cross, I wept realizing that I was on the same page as those evil brutes. The sin that I had.. It was the same as their sin. It is this revealing of the man of sin that makes people repent.

Sure, realizing that you've violated the law of God helps, but repenting from sin is not only talking about a repentance of your individual sins, but of your entire being.

And I do agree that we do need the law.. We need to enforce the right and the wrong. We need to go against abortion. But remember how Jesus said he'll write the law in our hearts and the people will no longer teach each other "sin no more" for from the least to the greatest, they will all know me. Jeremiah 33: 31 or somewhere there..

So the thing is, if we have such hearts toward aborted babies.. I think we should have the exact same heart toward souls who are going to hell. Because both of them are in sin and are in need of salvation.

...

We need the law, but let us not forget that it is not the law that changes man. Correcting your child is all good, and is definetly needed, but the that child needs to meet Jesus, no matter how "good" he may be.
...
It is only through the gospel that a man that loved the world, a man that was the master of himself, a man who had the values of this world, is totally transformed to loving only jesus, setting Jesus as his master, and having a value that esteems only the gospel.
So he consdiers everything "rubbish" compared to the greatness of knowing Him.

Jiyouk, what you write (I selected quotes) rings true in me.
We in the USA have a choice to promote righteousness by politics or by Christ in us. The former starts from the outside and works in--or at least it is supposed to-- and the latter starts on the inside and works out.
I support the idea of "abortion trucks", but divorced from politics. I, as a follower of Jesus, would have to treat both sides equal. If anti-Obama because of abortion, then anti-McCain because of war. Should I get some photos of the mutilated bodies he created as a pilot in Vietnam and paste them on the side of a truck at his campaign? No, I wouldn't do that against him, but I would do that in opposition to the horrors of war.
I choose, by the grace of God, to spend my labors warring for righteousness, in the spiritual realm rather than the political.
I hope that whatever changes in a man/woman in which I may have been used as an instrument, started from the inside, like leaven in dough.
Peace,
Mike

Hi MikeAtnip...

I support the idea of "abortion trucks", but divorced from politics. I, as a follower of Jesus, would have to treat both sides equal. If anti-Obama because of abortion, then anti-McCain because of war. Should I get some photos of the mutilated bodies he created as a pilot in Vietnam and paste them on the side of a truck at his campaign? No, I wouldn't do that against him, but I would do that in opposition to the horrors of war.

But regardless of whether or not you agree with war at all -- God has (at times) allowed it to go on and be the catalyst for the rise and fall of nations and empires. Yet I think that if you were to ask John McCain (or read any of his autobiography -- like [i]Faith of our Fathers[/i]), you will understand that he NEVER had a desire to kill anyone. It would be cliched to say that he was simply "following orders." At the time, McCain (like my dad, a 18 yr old teenager serving in the military in Vietnam) felt that he was defending the principles of freedom against the intolerable cruelty of communism in a distant land. He thought that the horrors of war could prevent worse horrors from occurring.

The difference with abortion? Whereas military men felt (in Vietnam as well as Iraq) that they were DEFENDING lives (even through something so horrible as war), those who would promote abortion are all about promoting first degree murder. Some of these individuals claim that the "right" to abort children is the crown of their "righteous marching orders" to get involved in politics. Abortion is the slaughter of innocent human lives -- usually for no reason other than convenience. Somehow, a segment of politicians in this nation (and elsewhere) have tried to spin the issue in a way that diminishes the victims of the practice.

I was reading about a well known personality whose was stating his views on the upcoming election. He admitted that McCain was the most experienced and qualified candidate (and offered much hesitation about Obama). Yet he argued that the only reason he would NOT vote for John McCain is due to the idea that John McCain would appoint conservatives to the Supreme Court. This, this person said, would ultimately lead to a woman being stripped of her "right" to abort babies. This person also argued that another conservative appointment to the Supreme Court could stop the attempt by some to remove references to Christianity from our government and society (which he argued is a good thing). He also said that another conservative appointed by McCain could stifle the "progress" made by homosexual advocacy groups over the last decade (in regards to marriage -- and how "normal" it is in general).

Please understand that I am not trying to be too political here. I understand that it is largely discouraged on this website. However, I am simply responding to your statement and this topic. This is an important election. It isn't that I think that one candidate has a monopoly on total righteousness and truth and the other is a total fraud. However, there is one candidate who is underhandedly promoting the cause of abortion. This matters to me.

I don't think that we can legislate inner righteousness. However, we can protect 1.2 million lives -- who matter in the sight of God. By voicing our concern about abortion on the sides of this van/bus -- and the popular candidate who is actively promoting it -- this nation might come to realize just how far "the mighty has fallen." If they don't realize that they are sinners, then why would they repent?

If we can't feel the liberty to vote, then can we at least PRAY regarding the outcome of this election? Can we pray that abortion will diminish, ungodliness will not be promoted as a "normal human right" and that the Faith will no longer be attacked by those who hate it (and us...and worse, our Lord)?

Hi everyone.

Chris, I appreciate what you shared here.

"But don't you see a difference? John McCain was an officer in the military performing actions in an attempt to protect one nation from becoming enslaved to communism."

I appreciate this also. It makes me ask if there is some sort of moral equivalency being implied here between Senator McCain fighting in the army of a Government and abortion? Was this the same communisim that we read tortured him and others with horrific torture for years and not only him but how many Christians and others?

Also,

"But regardless of whether or not you agree with war at all -- God has (at times) allowed it to go on and be the catalyst for the rise and fall of nations and empires."

This reminded me of a passage from Isaiah chapter 10, in particular verses 5-12.

Our outreaches to "political functions" are in no way politically motivated. Truth is truth whether you speak at a political rally or in a back alley. John the Baptist (Mark 6:18) and the Messiah himself (Luke 13:32) spoke the truth to the lost whether they were homeless or political leaders. The eyes of the nation are on the election campaign and crowds flock to hear their candidate ramble on about how he intends to solve all of the nations problems. It is very effective to let the lost gather into large groups and then use those venues to proclaim the Gospel and Biblical truth to them. The one thing that is truly needed is the Gospel. You can be sure you won't hear the Good News of salvation coming from those on the stage.

Just because someone labels something as "political" doesn't mean that God's Word is silent on the issue at hand. However abortion is packaged by those who are at peace with it, the Church should be loud and clear when stating God's position on it. God doesn't wink at the shedding of innocent blood and we should be the first to speak out loud and clear on behalf of the children being killed. There is no valid Biblical argument for silence in the face of a holocaust.

ccchhhrrriiisss:
I am with you on 110% on the atrocity of abortion, and the undeniable fact that this nation (and many of the nations of this world) will be judged as a nation for this sin, if Jesus does not return soon. IN fact, I read one person's musings recently that just as God used ungodly Bablyon to punish the Jews for 70 years, He may well use the Muslims to punish Europe and the US. An interesting thought, although I do not say this will happen.
To sum up my thoughts, I will make plain that I agree with the abortion truck idea. I like it. I just would separate it from the political and make it totally a spiritual issue. To make my point, which I realize is idealist...
Suppose Susie American is pregnant and doesn't want the "fuss" of "bothering" with the baby. Joe the papa, like many other men who are co-partners in the abortion industry, has no desire for the baby either.
But the abortion truck has done its job, and the State Susie lives in has outlawed abortion on demand. So she has the baby. She doesn't want it, neither does Joe.
Joe Jr. grows up feeling unwanted and unloved, because that is exactly the way it is.
Has not having the abortion stopped the sin? Not exactly, it has just been changed the sin from actual murder to hatred and despite, manifested for a whole lifetime instead of a moment.
Now, not in the least am I justifying abortion, my point is that outwardly the abortion was stopped, but the terrible situation with Susie and her baby is not a whole lot better off.
Suppose now that the abortion truck is used as a vehicle to promote a spiritual change, instead of a political agenda (which I am sure that happens some even now).
Susie sees the horror of her hatred, repents, has the baby and loves it. The State may or may not allow abortion, but that doesnt even matter to Susie in her case now. In fact, she would die herself rather than abort her baby.
To me, the second scenario is 77 times more worthy to work for than the first.
Concerning war, I am solidly convinced of what is often called "non-resistance", hence my equation of McCain's sin with Obama's. If one accepts the "just war" theory, then McCain could have one up on Obama.
And pray? Absolutely!!
Our nation is sinking into a moral cesspool, caused by our spiritual degeneracy. I do pray that God would raise up civil leaders to point our nation back into decency. But if the people of a nation do not have it in their hearts to live righteously, civil law is but a "virtual fence" for their ungodly deeds.
For this reason, I also pray for a spiritual revival in our land.
In fact, I am convincing myself, even as I write this post, that I need to pray more, and more for the latter than the former. ;-)

Hi Mikeatnip,

Please pardon me for inserting some thoughts here.

I believe you've articulated plainly two ideas that I think are pushing post-modern western civilization into the void, and the church along with it.

But if the people of a nation do not have it in their hearts to live righteously, civil law is but a "virtual fence" for their ungodly deeds.

I find it curious that intelligent people can understand the need for dams and walls in a city like New Orleans but do not understand the need for laws in that same city. We would never say, "let the ocean pour into the basin just as it is inclined to..." Yet Christians (of all people) say, "let men act without restraint according to their natural inclinations; it is not possible to legislate morality'. This is not true...the only thing that does away with law is the new man, the regenerated man. Until Christ returns we are compelled to hold back the seas of immorality and lawlessness with good laws. The bible is not silent on the subject of government for good reason.

Now, not in the least am I justifying abortion, my point is that outwardly the abortion was stopped, but the terrible situation with Susie and her baby is not a whole lot better off....To me, the second scenario is 77 times more worthy to work for than the first.

Now the second curiosity---many Christians seem to say we cannot legislate godly laws, yet here you presume to judge as God would. Who are we to drop the gavel on the outcome of this child's life? With all due respect, this is a sociologists perspective, not a biblical one. It is not our place to determine pre-history of a life, but it is our place to obey God in the present regarding a life. The little child does not deserve to die just because we lack the imagination to see anything but unhappiness and suffering for the child. Such a liberal ethic of foreclosing on a human life according to our own relativistic fears and values, is completely contrary to the basic commandments of God.

For those of us who believe the Christian can't ever take a hand in war, it is nevertheless still biblically defendable that the state has a charter from to bear the sword against law breakers and military enemies, In contrast, it is biblically indefensible that this same state ever make itself an instrument of infanticide in it's quest to achieve economic and political security.

Even if a great leader were to bring world peace, and take away world poverty, he would still be a prototype antichrist if in the bargain for his utopia, he exacted the price of millions of innocent deaths.

We must be careful of blending Jesus word's "My Kingdom is not of this World" with a existential moral relativism that tries to view all earthly political governments, or all political ideologies as equally evil or good. Every earthly political system may be tainted with corruption and evil, but they are not all equally corrupted and evil. I am not saying that we must participate politically in any way---I am saying that we cannot participate in relativism that assess all governments, cultures, and laws on this Earth as being equally good or bad. Abstain politically if you must, but do so because you are obeying scripture, without having to resort to the impossible claim that all systems are equally evil. Despite the high-minded relativism of our age, we must maintain basic intellectual integrity in the face of popular relativistic insanity and it's resulting moral indifference.

Your brother,

MC

Compton:
I am agreed that God has ordained civil government. My whole point is that, as Christians, we better invest our time and energy in bringing about a spiritual renewal, rather than in correcting civil governments and in striving against sin by pushing for moral legislation.
I mentioned that my example was idealism. I know it doesnt have to turn out that Susie would hate her child if she is denied the "right" to abort it.
But I have lived almost 5 years in South America where abortion is not as wide-spread. I have seen the multitudes of unwanted children being raised by grandmas and/or aunts, or even by the mother herself. Or, in some cases turned out on the street as a small child. I think the number of unwanted children roaming Lima, Peru is estimated at over 100,000. In Sucre, Bolivia where our Daniel is from, one Catholic orphanage that took in newborns kept the children until age six. If by that time no-one had taken them--which is not that often I think--the girls were sent to a nunnery and the boys were turned out into the street to fend for themself.
It is an abortion that lasts for years instead of moments.
Again I reiterate that I am not saying abortion is better than having the child born unwanted. But it is not a whole lot worse.
Neither is the real answer adoption (and we have adopted one). Too many times, in S. America, the idea is, "Oh, you will take my unwanted child? Great!!! I can now go party instead of watching this baby!" (And fornicate, and have another one, and repeat the cycle...)
My goal is simply to spend my efforts at the root of the problem- spiritual decadency.
It is like a sinking boat. We can work at bailing water, or we can try to plug the hole. God has ordained civil governments to bail water, and Christians to plug the hole.
And I suppose you have figured out by now that I dont think the two ought to mix in each others business.
:-)
yours for righteousness,
Mike

Hi again everyone,

MikeAtnip, how are you?

I was wondering if I could suggest something here in regards to this:

"God has ordained civil governments to bail water, and Christians to plug the hole."

I think this is perahps a false dichotomy? The Lord Jesus said his people are the salt of the earth.

I think that means they serve as a preservative against decay [i]wherever[/i] they may be: in whatever station or posistion of life [b]God[/b] may call them to enter, or place them in.

When the Lord Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this world, He went on further to say that His servants would not fight [b]in order to keep Him from being delivered unto the Jews[/b]. Compare that with John 18:11.

This seems to be far and away from suggesting that His servants would have no involvement in the kingdoms of this world, or that they would not use positions in those kingdoms to advance His purposes in the earth.

In fact, that seems contrary to other examples of men and women that God used to save His people in the history of the Bible. Am thinking here of Joseph, Esther, and Daniel.

I would only suggest here that we at least consider that God may have plans for people to enter many different areas of life that we may not consider to be [i]spiritual[/i].

Wish you all grace and peace,

Chris

Hi Brother MikeAtnip…

Has not having the abortion stopped the sin? Not exactly, it has just been changed the sin from actual murder to hatred and despite, manifested for a whole lifetime instead of a moment.
Now, not in the least am I justifying abortion, my point is that outwardly the abortion was stopped, but the terrible situation with Susie and her baby is not a whole lot better off.

Abortion is murder. It is murder that is being promoted by common individuals who are seeking to get voted into office in order to prolong the “right” – and even [u]extend[/u] it (including unto children without their parents’ permission or notification and paid for by our tax dollars). Most politicians now say that they don’t “like” abortion – but that they want to keep it legal and “rare.” Their policy, in reality, makes abortion into just another form of birth control. The platforms of many candidates make it seem like they want for abortion to be cheap and plentiful – and as easy as getting your teeth cleaned at a dentist office.

The status of children born is a completely different matter. Yes, there are a lot of unwanted children in the world – but that doesn’t justify abortion. Yes, there are children who are despised by even their parents. [u]But how is abortion even in this sort of discussion[/u]? Child neglect is certainly a sin. But how can it even be compared with abortion? It isn’t cured by abortion – it is cured by taking responsibility for our own children (or those who are parentless). Oddly enough, legislation exists that prohibits children from starving (at least, in theory). In this nation, a child cannot starve or be neglected unless the people around that child are ignorant of the circumstances or help available.

I recently moved to California. It is illegal in California for a 17 yr old girl to take an aspirin at school without her parents’ permission. Yet the State allows a much younger girl to have an abortion while at school – without her parents ever learning. The school doesn’t think enough of parents to let them know that the children are even sexually active! I learned that one young 15 yr old girl who suffered complications on the abortion table was actually sexually active only AT SCHOOL. Sadly, many in the state of California seem to care more about FARM ANIMALS and TREES than unborn babies.

You say that “Suzie’s baby” is not much better off? Better off than [i]what[/i]? The excruciating murder by poisoning or chopping is better for her child? Ultimately, both of the sins that you mentioned (abortion and child neglect) are the sins of the parents. The children are the VICTIM. The former allows parents to have their children painfully murdered within the safe confines of their womb. The latter allows for parents to simply ignore the children.

Why does this matter so much to me? Of course, I understand that the murder of children by “doctors” is a tragedy of disastrous proportions. I find it hard to ignore when men running for office on such a platform might when simply if I choose not to stand in the way with my voice (vote). Edmund Burke once said that, “[i]All that is needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.[/i] It makes some sense. It is funny that some churches will vote for pastors (or even the color of the paint on the walls), but don’t think that abortion is important enough to merit utilization of such a right.

Secondly, this hits close to home. My “dad” is not my biological father. My mom remarried when I was a child and my step-father raised me as his own. I didn’t even realize that he was my “step” dad until I was in junior high school. I could not have asked for a better father than my step-father. In fact, I have never referred to him as a “step father” (except when telling others about the situation).

My biological father married my mom when she was very young. He was extremely abusive. She had my oldest two sisters while she was still a teenager. When she was pregnant with me, my biological father wanted her to have an abortion. My mom was not a Christian, but she knew it was wrong. She refused. Eventually, he beat her badly enough – hoping that I would have died in her womb. My mother left that relationship (after being in the hospital several times and he was threatening to kill her if she gave birth to me). She divorced my biological father and later gave birth to me.

I am a child who escaped an abortion. My mother never told me this until after I reached adulthood. What great love from my mother! My mother met the Lord when I was in the third grade. Since then, she was able to minister to women who had made mistakes in their lives – and those who had considered abortion. My mom used to tell them that abortion goes against the will of God. Not only is it the same as murder, she tells them, but it is goes against the purpose of God to create mankind in His own image. God created men to fellowship with Him – to be given the chance to choose to love and know Him. Abortion destroys this opportunity that brings joy to the Creator of all things. Perhaps that is why Satan loves it so much?

Christians greetings to all!
First, thank you to each one for contributing to this discussion. It could easily branch into several healthy veins of thought to meditate upon.
Bro. ccchhhrrriiisss:
There is one point you make that I think validates my whole point:

...but she knew it was wrong. She refused.

Very simple and down to earth MikeAtnip..
Thanks for the good insights.:)

Hi Brother MikeAtnip...

Regardless of the rationale that caused my Mom to decide not to abort me (before she was a believer), the fact remains that I am a survivor. My biological father wanted me dead. My mother chose life. I wonder how many lives (like mine) would have been saved if the fellow Americans that the other Americans elected didn't legislate a choice in the first place? One way to stop such an agenda is to do what we can to prevent them from being elected in the first place.

I think that your argument is built on the idea that we can do only one or the other. We can either pray and focus on the spiritual -- or we can participate (as God leads) with our physical voices (and votes). Why can't we do both? Didn't Paul the Apostle use the Roman legal system to "appeal unto Caesar" and take the Gospel to Rome? Amazingly -- it worked! Paul could have simply sailed to Rome and prayed for a miraculous audience with Caesar; but, he didn't. He took the long, Roman-built road and preached as he went along.

If I want abortion to stop, what can I do? Am I limited to one avenue of remedy? No. I will certainly pray and speak out to anyone who will listen. But I can also utilize the freedom in this land to vote (which did not exist much in Rome). I can pray, speak, vote and drive trucks that point out the horrors of abortion and those who wish to extend it. Please don't confuse this with any sort of "Kingdom" doctrine (I certainly don't think that we can legislate the Kingdom of God; rather, just prevent the elected Americans from promoting gross sin with our taxes -- another option that was not available in Rome).

Brother, there is a big difference from voting and acting toward the chopping off of noses by a government (sin) and that same government trying to simply give up and make it a "right" to snort cocaine. The root is one and the same: Cocaine is a drug that destroys much. If I lived in Bolivia (using your example), I would pray against the drug trade. But I would also pray, vote and speak out against a system that allows for the chopping off of noses. Yet I would also pray, speak out and vote against any attempt to make cocaine [u]legal[/u].

It is possible to do both. We can participate without losing our faith. In fact, we can participate as a direct result of our faith in Christ. It isn't "bowing down" to a system, a candidate or a worldly philosophy. It is taking a spiritual stand against a legislated act of unrighteousness. I can PRAY for my wife to be fed all day long. But if I don't WORK to provide for her, then I am worse than an infidel. So what do I do? I pray AND work -- even if the social-welfare system implimented by this government makes it easy to be lazy and still get fed.

(Edit: I am concerned that) western Christians are succumbing to the hopeless nihilism of western civilization and are expressing their philosophy under the pleasant guise "my kingdom is not of this world".

MC

Hi again everyone,

"Because of civil legislation, or deep-rooted spiritual ethics?"

I think again we could be creating a false dichotomy here.

"Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness."

- Leviticus 19:29(KJV)

[b]...lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become [u]full[/u] of wickedness[/b]

Isn't it possible rather that the morality reflected in a community's, or a nation's laws will work to inform and correct the consciences of it's citizens? Or to at least restrain them?

Are Islamic nations somehow impressed with our standards of public decency?

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Brother MikeAtnip...

Regardless of the rationale that caused my Mom to decide not to abort me (before she was a believer), the fact remains that I am a survivor. My biological father wanted me dead. My mother chose life. I wonder how many lives (like mine) would have been saved if the fellow Americans that the other Americans elected didn't legislate a choice in the first place? One way to stop such an agenda is to do what we can to prevent them from being elected in the first place.

I think that your argument is built on the idea that we can do only one or the other. We can either pray and focus on the spiritual -- or we can participate (as God leads) with our physical voices (and votes). Why can't we do both? Didn't Paul the Apostle use the Roman legal system to "appeal unto Caesar" and take the Gospel to Rome? Amazingly -- it worked! Paul could have simply sailed to Rome and prayed for a miraculous audience with Caesar; but, he didn't. He took the long, Roman-built road and preached as he went along.

If I want abortion to stop, what can I do? Am I limited to one avenue of remedy? No. I will certainly pray and speak out to anyone who will listen. But I can also utilize the freedom in this land to vote (which did not exist much in Rome). I can pray, speak, vote and drive trucks that point out the horrors of abortion and those who wish to extend it. Please don't confuse this with any sort of "Kingdom" doctrine (I certainly don't think that we can legislate the Kingdom of God; rather, just prevent the elected Americans from promoting gross sin with our taxes -- another option that was not available in Rome).

Brother, there is a big difference from voting and acting toward the chopping off of noses by a government (sin) and that same government trying to simply give up and make it a "right" to snort cocaine. The root is one and the same: Cocaine is a drug that destroys much. If I lived in Bolivia (using your example), I would pray against the drug trade. But I would also pray, vote and speak out against a system that allows for the chopping off of noses. Yet I would also pray, speak out and vote against any attempt to make cocaine [u]legal[/u].

It is possible to do both. We can participate without losing our faith. In fact, we can participate as a direct result of our faith in Christ. It isn't "bowing down" to a system, a candidate or a worldly philosophy. It is taking a spiritual stand against a legislated act of unrighteousness. I can PRAY for my wife to be fed all day long. But if I don't WORK to provide for her, then I am worse than an infidel. So what do I do? I pray AND work -- even if the social-welfare system implimented by this government makes it easy to be lazy and still get fed.

Brother Chris.
Paul went to Ceasar with the sole assurance that only the gospel of Jesus Christ will change a man totally. He used the law system to get to Ceasar, but in front of Ceasar he preached the gospel.
So a person is changed by the gospel and gospel alone. Jews seek miracles, Greeks wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, foolishenss to the Jews and Greeks but the power of God for those who believe.
And I, bretheren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I was determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus christ, and him crucified.

This problem that we're discussing here is not only on abortion but on many other issues as well.
For example, medical improvements that save a patients life.
Or food distributions that save starving people.
And so on.
They save physical, tangible, literal lives!
And so many people go on seeking these.

I have many North Korean friends who have escaped from the horrible regime and tell me, "once North Korea goes down, I'm going to stand up for the human rights in North Korea. So I'm working to become a lawyer."
"Once North Korea goes down, I'm going to provide food for the hungry, so I'm going to be a business man."
And you know.. Their hearts are as sincere as they can get because they know what real hunger, hunger to the point of picking up little seeds on the muddy floor, is. They know what it means to get beat up by the soldiers to the point where you cannot walk. They know the fear of death. And so they want to "minister" to these people and help them out...

So I tell them, "friends, but that will not change them. Maybe all that is needed, but lets preach the everlasting gospel of Jesus to these people before anything else. Give them food, their stomachs will be full like the westerners, give them rights, and they'll be arrogant promoting their right to have rights.. But what saves someone eternally?"

Oh! How the eternal things that exist have become so "unrealistic" in our minds that the hunger for food of one person is greater than his need for salvation!
How we have trampled on this gospel of Jesus, and promoting other ways!
We think that if we love that person, he will be changed.
No, that man can only be changed by the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We think that we first need to do other things and then the gospel.

Look at the savation army! They were so focused on souls and then the head guy, whatever his name was, started saying "lets feed the people before we preach the gospel." And what happened? THey're just feeding people. This is all good. And I'm not saying that this is bad! Going against abortion is good!!
But what about eternal life!

Brothers, we do have to choose one or the other, because you know what? Time is so limited? Do you have time to watch TV? Time to have some good time amongs family members? Time to do this and that, promote other "good" things?
But.. what are we going to do about the person next to me going to hell? the person on the bus, our next door neighboor? We're to preach the gospel, and only the gospel all day long.
And hearing this people call me extreme.. But brothers, let me tell you what is extreme.. Jesus dying on the cross for this non-worthy man.. This is extereme.. And nothing that I do is extreme..
Yes I do fight too. On the subways, I don't always want to disrubt the people with my preaching. So I just sit there praying, (which can not be a substitute. "preach the gospel amongs all nations"). I sit there saying to myself, "yes, the gospel is what changes a man, but I can't be always preaching.. then I won't have my own life"
Bingo..
Yes, if we were to preach only Jesus, wherever and whenever.. We wouldn't have our own life.
So you see, it is the love of our selves that causes us not to be radical for Jesus. "Hey I still want to have a nice family, I still want to have a decent job, I still want to enjoy the things others enjoy" And this is not "wrong" but! what is the confession of a Christian? "I consider everything rubbish comared to the greatness of knowing Jesus." Paul didn't confess this because he was "mature." Anyone who has met the gospel of Jesus and confronted his own self at the feet of this Jesus.. Knows this.
That our existance cannot be, and should not be expalined as "I'm a father of a son, I'm this persons wife, I'm a doctor, or I'm a professor, or I'm a white collar worker, or blue collar worker" What does Jesus say?
"Whoever does not hate his father or mother for MY SAKE is not worthy to be my disciple!"

What does it mean to be content with Jesus? It means that all other things may come and go, but that joy of Jesus is there. Because he is your everything. Literally everything. Not, "he should be my everything but I still need a job." no.. He is our everything.
And so even if the whole economy colapses. And the earth quakes and the mountains fall to the oceans, we are safe in that wide arms of Jesus.
It does not shake us..Cause he is really our everything..

Why does our faith shake with the economy? Or why does it shake with our close ones death? Because, he never was our everything.
"The kingdom of God is like a man who found a great pearl in the field and rejoiced and went and sold HIS EVERYTHING to buy the field."
Jesus being our everything does not have to do with maturity, or how far along we are on the road. It has to do with us truly finding ourselves in Jesus. It has to do with the gospel!!
If our Creator sold his everything(Jesus) to buy us, as a crunched ugly pearl as we are, then nothing that we do.. nothing that we give is ever enough. So we quit trying to give back to the Lord all these small little presents and give him our whole hearts.. All of it..
And Preach the gospel that saved a sinner like me........

We're not talking about "is having a job wrong?" Or "Can I get married?" Let us look at the root!!!!!!! of the Whole problem with Christianity today..
They have forsaken the fountain.. THe gospel that saves man, and have dug their own sinister that have holes...
We know that it should be first, but when you think of it, it never is, is it?
We know that we should preach the gospel, but thats not all we do is it?
......

Hi jiyouk...

Yes, brother. I understand your perspective on this. But the question that I am asking is why can't we do the Lord's work in EVERYTHING regarding this life? When I eat -- it is to provide nourishment for my body...which is the temple of the Holy Spirit...which is the vessel used to provide for my wife...which is then used to give food and clothing to the poor...etc... When I was saved, my relationship with Jesus Christ goes with me in EVERY aspect of my life. It is with me when I sleep and when I rise, when I eat and when I work, when I fellowship with my wife, and even in my perspectives about right and wrong and the direction that our government could go.

I don't want abortion to occur. Why? Because it is a holocaust that was caused by a few elected men who thought that it was something that could get them elected by a culture of convenience? It goes further than that! Even if this society rejected abortion (which about 50% of this nation does) -- it doesn't change God's opinion of the matter! He HATES abortion!

I don't think that we can legislate righteousness -- because righteousness is not found only in faithfully observing the law. It is by knowing Jesus. I believe that my great passion in this world (other than knowing Jesus for myself) is to introduce a relationship with Jesus Christ to others. I strive to introduce Him to anyone that I speak with (or those who watch me). Yet I still live in this nation...my "temporary" citizenship. I believe that I can still follow Christ in the purity and truth while still living in this present world. If I feel concern for the direction of this present world, I can speak out about it (such as with my vote). Is this possible? Didn't John the Baptist preach against the sin in Herod's relationship (he married his brother's wife -- legal, yet immoral)? Ironically, John lost his head for this.

In today's world, there is a candidate and segment of common citizens who want to promote such ungodliness. They promote homosexual marriage, abortion, pornography as "free speech" (with one liberal court ruling that allows such pornography to have children's faces superimposed on young adult bodies), etc... Should we remain silent? Yes, there is a root to this problem (selfish pride). Yet it is still sin!

Please don't mistake my decision to utilize my voice AND vote as a entanglement in the affairs of this world. I am just calling it as I see it. It is not a "one or the other" choice -- as if we are trying to have it "both ways." Rather, I see this entire world through the lens of my faith and relationship in the Lord Jesus Christ. I love my wife, my family, my neighbors, unborn babies -- and even those in sin -- far too much to sit around and do nothing. I am not trying to "evangelize the world" through my vote. I do that with my speech and very life. Rather, I am concerned about the direction of my home, my city, my community, my local Church, the Church of this nation, the Church of this world, and the people of this nation into which the Lord has placed me. I am concerned about the children who can be aborted, the children who will be forced to live with gay men or gay women by the will of a small group of elected liberal legislators (who might not have been in office if Christians simply voted).

Do you see what I am trying to say? I am simply living according to my faith no matter where I go. I can follow Christ wholeheartedly and still vote my conscience. It isn't any sort of allegiance to a party (I would preach against abortion no matter WHICH CANDIDATE or PARTY was parading it or advancing it). Rather, it is an allegiance to the mind of Christ on the subject. Yes, I am very aware of the root -- but I am also aware of the output too.

This is just some things to think about...that I feel the need to clear up.

Brother Chris.
I understand what your saying and now understand where you're coming from. And I can see that Jesus has placed in you what I was talking about earlier. What you say is true. Yes, legal wrong needs to be spoken out against. But I think you also understand what I was talking about right? :) You understand how people are trading off the most important thing for the less important thing.. Everywhere you go.. The gospel seems such a myth to the people.. That speaking out agaisnt abortion takes a greater part of our lives rather than what you said "I am not trying to evangelize the world through my vote. I do that with my speech and my very life."
Not just politically, but in all aspects of society..
Anyway, thankyou brother for further explaining your faith. It makes much more sense and I agree wholeheartedlyl :)
Jesus in evry part of our life.. Yes..

"Because of civil legislation, or deep-rooted spiritual ethics?"
I think again we could be creating a false dichotomy here.

Isn't it possible rather that the morality reflected in a community's, or a nation's laws will work to inform and correct the consciences of it's citizens? Or to at least restrain them?

From a lack of time, I will not be spending much time here for a while. I tend to bounce in and out of forums. Maybe I will "see" you all after a bit.
Grace, peace, and
blessings to all.
Mike

Yet my whole point is that we as Christians should spend our time at the root, not the branch

Yet, disease can find it's way into a healthy tree through the branches and even the trunk. Even air pollution can effect a tree.

I remember experiencing this truth first hand when an outwardly healthy tree fell on my house. Though it appeared to be a huge and strong tree, it cracked revealing that a large section of the center was eaten out halfway up the trunk. The roots were still fine, even so the only way to save the tree was to treat the parts that were weak above the soil.

A tree doctor now and then needs to treat unhealthy branches for the sake of the whole. So, if a Christian is analogous to a tree doctor, then civil evil, like diseased branches and dead blossoms, needs pruned back from time to time, so that the tree can continue to grow upright. If we don't, the moral damage will become irreparable, making it so much harder for a man's regenerated roots to compensate for a tree full of diseased branches.

Take the case of pornography. An orchard of Christians exposed to this environment is going to have a much harder time becoming healthy spiritually, then previous generations. Likewise, a tree growing next to toxic waste dump is going to have a much harder time then a tree planted by the waters.

Unrestrained evil is one reason there is more opposition to Christianity today then other times. That is why a Christian concerned about planting the seeds of the Gospel is also going to be concerned about the environment, morally and spiritually speaking. Otherwise, even tall sprouting spirit filled Christians can be infected by the philosophical pollution of our day---(edit:) The roots of the tree are healthy, nevertheless some of the fruit is infested by worms.

MC

Hi MikeAtnip...

Yet my whole point is that we as Christians should spend our time at the root, not the branch. And it is a true dichotomy in the sense of either one or the other, not both at the same time. Whenever I am spending time in one project (making a civil law), I cannot be spending that same time in preaching Jesus. I can spend 2 hours testifying before the Senate, or I can spend 2 hours preaching at the subway station. I can spend 1 hour at the Senate, and 1 at the subway station. But I cannot spend 2 hours in the Senate and 2 hours at the Subway, if I only have 2 hours of time.

Our relationship with Christ Jesus does not negate our responsibilities to our families or neighbors. Rather, it makes those responsibilities all the more defined. I must work and provide -- or risk becoming "worse than an infidel." I can certainly give everything that I have to the poor; but in doing so, I risk failing to provide for my family or paying the taxes that as the Lord advised.

I read the article that you posted, but I must personally disagree. A vote against abortion is not the result of neglecting a relationship or mission of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rather, it is proclaiming the extent and preventing the establishment of murder -- and using the very system of the world to do so. Why? Because the Lord did not take me or my family out of this world. We are still here, as temporary citizens of a nation that some try to argue was never very Christian in the first place (even though they probably wouldn't want to live anywhere else). Like Augustine of Hippo said, "[i]Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words[/i]." I pray that my entire life -- including my likes and dislikes -- reflect the mind of Christ.

When I was a newly converted young teen totally in love with Jesus, I reasoned in my heart that I should not ever marry. Instead, I thought that I would use my life to preach the Gospel. And I did. I assumed that the Lord was coming quickly and would prefer to work in McDonalds for minimum wage than to get married and support a family -- all so I could preach. Then, one day, I realized that I wanted to one day get married (I saw the sunset while atop a mountain during a missionary trip to the Tarahumara tribes of the Sierra Madre Occidental). I realized the loneliness of my heart, hoping to share the beauty of that moment with someone else (because I was sharing it with God because he had created it). At that moment, I knew that I would probably end up getting married...because I felt alone (even though I was strongly aware of the presence of the Lord -- go figure).

I realized that a minimum wage job at McDonalds would not suffice as provision for a wife and children. So I went to college. Yet I did not leave my faith at the entrace of the school. Rather, I carried my friendship with Jesus to every corner of that campus and into every classroom. Every paper was written with the knowledge that Christ was with me...and the Holy Spirit was inside of me. Every conversation was spoken with the knowledge of the Holy One. And you know what? Every vote that I have made was made only within the limits of my knowledge of the mind of Christ. I don't vote against abortion because I am aligning myself with a party, a candidate or simply against another candidate. Rather, I vote against abortion, homosexual marriage, ridicule of Christ, pornography as "free speech," and the attempt to supress the faith simply because I feel that this lines up with the mind of Christ in regard to those issues.

In this election, I am strongly aware of the issues. I don't care nearly as much that Obama will raise taxes to small businesses (who will likely pass those taxes on to people like us). Rather, I worry greatly with the type of agenda that the man stands behind. Abortion is a sin that affects the most helpless in our society. Jesus hates abortion. Yet I find it remarkable that some believers would argue against voting about the issue. I imagine, will they be the same people who will complain and preach against it? They had the power (through the voice of their vote) to do something, yet they preferred to do nothing but speak. Why couldn't they both speak and act? Are we not supposed to speak AND act in accordance to our faith? Are we supposed to simply preach to the hungry, thirsty, sick and imprisoned? Or are we supposed to preach to them AND do what we can to meet their needs? Voting is, in this regard, simply doing what we can to meet the needs of the millions who are aborted each year.

There is no dichotomy of allegiance here. We can do both.

Hi everyone.

MikeAtnip, thank you for your time and response :) I realise that you may not have much time to respond and I understand. Thank you again.

I was wondering if I could respond briefly to something in your reply, which Mike and Chris also responded to,

"Yet my whole point is that we as Christians should spend our time at the root, not the branch. And it is a true dichotomy in the sense of either one or the other, not both at the same time."

If I could suggest here too, that preaching the Gospel is not the [b]only[/b] mandate that we have from the Lord and that others, that is, [i]other things[/i] which we are directed to be concerned about in our labors, can compliment and accompany and work together with our efforts to spread the Gospel; for instance, clothing the naked, feeding the poor, and relieving the oppressed(Matthew 25:34-45, James 1:27).

And too, I think of how the disciples were not only told to preach the Gospel, but they were told to teach others to observe what the Lord had commanded(Matthew 5:19, 28:19-20).

And in a free society such as this one, Christians have access to the highest and most influencial places of public thought and life.

Tonight as I was thinking about the discussion here, I remembered this story that I heard about a Judge and how he was speaking to a man that had been convicted of treason, about using the time he had left to get right with God.

I found the story qouted in an article by David Barton called "The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible". According to the article, the Judge's name was Thomas McKean and he was, among other things, a Signer of the Declaration of Independence and a Ratifier of the US Constitution. The qoute is about half way down the page.

[url=http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755#R80]The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible[/url]

Wish you and the others well,

Chris

Thought this was an interesting email I received, wanted to pass it on, and remembered this post.

A worried woman went to her gynecologist and said: 'Doctor, I have a serious problem and desperately need your help! My baby is not even 1 yr. old and I'm pregnant again. I don't want kids so close together.' So the doctor said: 'Ok, and what do you want me to do?'

She said: 'I want you to end my pregnancy, and I'm counting on your help with this.'

The doctor thought for a little, and after some silence he said to the lady: 'I think I have a better solution for your problem. It's less dangerous for you too.'

She smiled, thinking that the doctor was going to accept her request.

Then he continued: 'You see, in order for you not to have to take care of 2 babies at the same time, let's kill the one in your arms. This way, you could rest some before the other one is born. If we're going to kill one of them, it doesn't matter which one it is. There would be no risk for your body if you chose the one in your arms.

The lady was horrified and said: 'No doctor! How terrible! It's a crime to kill a child!

'I agree', the doctor replied. 'But you seemed to be ok with it, so I thought maybe that was the best solution.

The doctor smiled, realizing that he had made his point.

He convinced the mom that there is no difference in killing a child that's already been born and one that's still in the womb. The crime is the same!

Save precious lives!