10%, 100%, or nothing?

Ask the Lord.

Thank you for the happy face - it made me smile.

Just keep doing what you have been doing until He lets you know otherwise. He likes it when we wait patiently, and when He is ready to talk there is no mistaking His commands. It is when we step out on our own, before He has answered, that we get in trouble - you may wonder how I know this.

:-)

More than once. :-(

It is usually expensive and embarrassing.

BrianMira wrote:
Saints,

Would I be wrong if I were to stop tithing and start paying my debt completely off. God knows my heart. Saintly wisdom and council is appreciated. I brought it up to my wife and she said, "Ask SI"!(besides prayer)...

Blessings.

I firmly believe you should not stop thithing to pay off your debt. Its not like you are at deaths door etc. Also, if you were to pay off your debt first, the outward sign that is shown to others is that paying off the debts are more important than God.

There was a lady in China whose husband had been imprisoned for many years because of the gospel. She had children and I think her mother in law to take care of too. She continued to tithe her meager income even though they could hardly get by. (She would set aside the tithe first before she spent any of her income). There was 1 day in which she had nothing left and no food and prayed to God. The next morning after her prayers there was a knock on the door and a person provided her some money. Over the time that her husband was in prison, God would continue to provide her the necessary $ for her family to survive.

This story is in 1 of the videos here.
http://www.chinasoul.org/e/cs-e.htm

I would also like to add, there is another Christian that decided to stop thithing or give less because of all the things that he had to pay. Well, God showed to him that he was wrong.

Edit to include:
There is always something that compete with God in areas such as finance, time etc.
If we wait for everything to be perfect, we will never move and this I believe is never the intention of God.

Here is a testimony that was shared by a brother in the forums some time ago:

"I am a big Fan of George Mueller. And had I learned of him before college, I don't believe I would have taken any student loans, better to not go at all... Anyway, I remember one story of Mr. Mueller returning money to a woman who gave to his orphanage work, he returned the money when he found out she had some debt."

Tears_of_joy wrote:
Here is a testimony that was shared by a brother in the forums some time ago:

"I am a big Fan of George Mueller. And had I learned of him before college, I don't believe I would have taken any student loans, better to not go at all... Anyway, I remember one story of Mr. Mueller returning money to a woman who gave to his orphanage work, he returned the money when he found out she had some debt."

There may be situations when God would want us to pay our debt off and the above example could be that. (It may also not be that because that woman may had receive an even greater blessing if Mueller had not returned the money to her. We can't say for sure that its the will of God for Mueller to return the $ to her)

Also don't forget Mark 12:41-44 (where the widow cast everything she had to live on)--Jesus did not stop the widow from giving everything she had.

(Disclaimer: by putting the above verses, I'm not encouraging anyone to do the above. There are times when this may be required of some of us--not all the time and maybe not all of us)

Would I be wrong if I were to stop tithing and start paying my debt completely off. God knows my heart. Saintly wisdom and council is appreciated. I brought it up to my wife and she said, "Ask SI"!(besides prayer)...

I think it begins with genuine contentment in life and a basic attitude that we don't want to be in debt at all if possible. I say this from experience that debt makes slaves out of us and paying each debt off is very encouraging.

I think there has to be an absolute determination and resolve to pay the debt off (Dave Ramsey style) as soon as possible. This might mean cutting off everything that is unnecessary or working extra hours or a part time job. It may take time. But I am not convinced that cutting off monies we have set aside for the Lord is the answer. I would try to cut somewhere else [u]if[/u] possible.

Here's another interesting question for you to consider. Would giving your tithe to the church actually be giving it wisely to the Lord. I have had this dilemma.

If the money is only going to be spent on Pastor's salaries and expenses and not on any other Christian mission work or ministry, is it right to give exclusively to the church.

In my own life I have been lead to give to more than one Christian missions organization or ministry in addition to giving at church, but also reducing the amount that I give at church in the process.

I guess it is a moot point; right now I serve as a missionary in Tokyo, I get a stipend from the church, I try my best to tithe out of the stipend. I really wonder whether I should even feel compelled to tithe when I am giving 100% of my time to the Lord, and burning through my savings in the process.

Great questions and answers.

1. As we all know, the Lord needs no person's money to do His will.

[u][b]Acts 8:20-21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.

2. Jesus tells us to give everything and pick up our cross daily.

[u][b]Mark 10:21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

3. We are not to owe others or carry debt.

[u][b]2 Kings 4:7 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, “Go, sell the oil and pay your debt; and you and your sons live on the rest.”

4. A man of the Lord who teaches is worth his wages
[u][b]1 Timothy 5:17-18 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

Should we tithe? Yes, If the Lord commands. Should you pay off your debt? Yes. Should you give 100%? Yes. If you are sitting under teh teachings of a man of God should we help pay his wages? Yes.

Should you pay off your debt before you tithe. This is between you and the Lord. I would say yes and no. Yes because we need to be free from the bonds of this world, all the while we need to support our brothers and sisters in need. I for one believe in paying off my debts AND a tithe, in what ever fashion that takes.
:-)

Give what God shows you to give.
He will help you.
I speak from experience.
He will show you what to do.
Before I found a Bible based Church, I gave my tithes to a couple of Ministries, who I knew preached the True Word of God.'
I give to the local Church I attend now.
The Pastor doesn't take a salary.
I think this is amazing!

God Bless you.
He will show you what to do.
Nellie

If you are a fan of Zac Poonen, read the [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/finances.php]Contact Us - Financial Support[/url] page. There are a series of questions they request that you ask yourself before giving. The third questions is:

3. Do you have any large debts to repay? If so, do clear those debts first. God wants His children to live restful lives, free from all debt. We must first give to Caesar what is his, before we can give anything to God, because God does not want us to give Him Caesar's money, or anyone else's money (Matt.22:21; Rom.13:8).

Also, in regards to the widow's mite, I heard a teacher bring up an interesting point. The point being: Jesus merely observes that the woman gave all she had - he doesn't offer endorsement. AND, if you read the context (the real context ignoring chapter breaks)the setting is suggestive:

He had just finished warning them to "Beware the scribes...who devour widows' houses." Then they sit down opposite the treasury and observe how people are giving. Once Jesus makes his observation about the widow, the disciples mention the temple "how it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings" and Jesus replies, "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

It is possible that Jesus was actually upset that this widow's house was being devoured by greedy religious leaders of the day who demanded a tithe. Not sure, it's just an interesting proposition.

Personally, my wife and I still try to set aside 10 percent for giving as a good habit. But we don't feel compelled to robotically (new adjective?) give 10% to line local pastors' pockets. We try to be good investors, putting finances into people/ministries/charities/churches which are doing the Gospel and taking minimal or no cut for themselves. If a pastor wants a new Cadillac, he can get a job like the rest of us. Not to say that we are unwilling to help out a minister with personal needs, but there is something wrong with a pastor telling people to give their tithes to God and then using all the tithes on himself.

Though they don't condemn others who do take a salary, Zac Poonen and his Elders take none:

Like the other elders in CFC, Zac Poonen also supports himself and his family through "tent-making" and does not receive any salary for his services. He does not receive any royalty for any of his books, audio tapes, video tapes or CDs, published by Christian Fellowship Centre.

I am well aware of what Zac Poonen said in his website before I first replied in this thread. I also believe that the in the case of the widow that gave all in the bible, there are many lessons to be learned from it and not just what MisterCheez or myself has put forth. So I believe that what MisterCheez and myself have put forth are both applicable and not exclusive to each other (I believed that, for other stories in the bible as well).

Edit to include:
In Corrie Ten Boom's book, they had a large debt that had to be paid soon. A person walked into the store and purchased an expensive watch. When Casper Ten Boom found out that this rich person was a former customer of another person who had died (and the dead man's son could not do a proper job in servicing the watch that this rich man needed), Casper Ten Boom refused to sell him the watch. In fact, he encouraged him to go back to the dead man's son and said that he (Casper) will help the rich man if he ran into any problems. Corrie Ten Boom was shocked and ran out. Casper Ten Boom told her that the Lord had many sheeps and we should not worry.

I know that the above case does not exactly apply but thought I put it out there.

In many places, one has no choice but to be in debt (due to studies, getting a house to stay in etc). One cannot say dont't buy a house because one do not want to take a loan/debt. Then where is one to stay then? At times we have to incur huge debt (such as loan on house). Is it then contradictory to the bible--I don't see it. Does it mean we are to stop giving to God just because we have that huge house debt? I can't imagine it.

I'm sorry, but somehow I can't imagine stopping giving to God completely until one has cleared off one's large debts completely (unless its a dire situation). The bible doesn't tell us to do so and common sense will tell us that its wrong. Maybe at times we have to stop giving for a certain period, give less etc (but to stop giving completely until one's debts are all cleared--I can't believe its God's will unless somebody can point out the verses in the bible saying that).

To me, stopping giving to God completely just to clear off all debts completely (without more substantial reasons eg: dire situation) smacks of the world (and not of God). I also believe that at times God may chose not to answer us because common sense should tell us what's the right answer. Imagine if we were to cut ourselves badly and need medical help, do we have to pray to God and wait for an answer from God to see whether we should go and see a doctor. I hope that this will help some (its not my intention to be a bit harsh here but I am unable to put it into softer words without it losing its meaning completely, maybe due to my own limitations. I'm also not saying that in the case of Brian, his situation is not dire etc or his question is wrong etc, because only he and God know the actual situation and the question/discussion may also help others)

I can understand the reasons why some people would return the $ to those in debt and why Zac Poonen put those words in his website (for example, many people in India are very poor, and they may feel compelled to give to God even though they are in dire situations--so putting those words there will help and possibly may well be what God intended. But this should not apply to all situations.)

Learn, I must say I have enjoyed reading your posts and the wisdom you have displayed. The Love for God and the good advice you are giving to those on this thread and also to Brian is commendable.

Brian the question you have asked to those on SI, I hope that you realized that you will get all kinds of advice. There is some very good advice from many on here but you also need to realize that God and his word to you is most important. Sometimes we want to be freer and we think that if we don’t have to give or tithe regularly or as much with a clear conscience, then that would be so wonderful. But we must realize that our giving shows our love for God and his cause on the earth. It also shows that we believe God will provide and that He can use us in our faithfulness to Him.

I have also come to understand sadly that there are some on here who will not give you good advice because they enjoy a freedom not to give regularly nor do they believe in tithing. They have some how reached a level that has freed them from tithing because they think it is bondage. There are some on here that have freedom to drink alcohol occasionally. There are others on here that have freedom not to attend church. There are others on here that believe in once saved always saved no matter how they live for God. There are others on here who believe they are the elect and are forced to do God’s will and believe they are doing God’s will all the time.

I could say a lot more but it really comes down to your faith in God. Do you love God and how do you see it. Most people are in debt in some way or another. We need to ask ourselves before we go into debt is this necessary and where are my priorities, and is God and his cause first in my life. The bible speaks much about giving and God has given so much to me and why shouldn’t I want to give regularly to God and his cause on the earth.

There are some who say tithing was only for the Old Testament and we are in a new covenant with God now so we don’t have to tithe. Do we not realize that under grace we have been given so much more from God and if we have the means why would we want to do less than a tithe. He is the same God and his promises to those who give are greater under the new covenant than it was in the Old. The bible says to owe no man anything but to love one another so we should never go into a debt that we don’t have the means to pay back. We owe God a debt that we can never repay so we are indebted to his cause on this earth for His great love to us.

We should never think that money is ours to spend on ourselves and if we have anything left we should then give something to God. I don’t believe the bible teaches it that way at all, because God should be first in our Life and if that does not include our money which is a basic necessity to buy the things we need, then we are putting our self above God and that is idolatry.

Most of all my brother I hope you will have peace in whatever you decide and also be a cheerful giver.

Brian,

I will stand by Zac's admonishens and agree with him wholeheartedly. It is in fact the very process that I am going through; One goal with one mind; Out of debt.

This matter of tithing has been gone through here at length and if anyone takes notice, even in this posting ... there is a great deal of [i]opinion[/i] but not a lot of firm New Testament model aspects being applied.

That being said ... Have flipped flopped over this for years, have read a great deal on the proscriptions and am not convinced that the mode and model that has been established, the 'tithe' has any bearing on us as it is [i]prescribed[/i]

I am hesitating and it is difficult not to get a bit agitated over this. Our brother is 60K in debt. [i]$60,000.00[/i] If some of the more vocal commentators have not been or are not presently in this same neighborhood then it might be very easy for you to give your opinions. I am sorry, I do not mean to be harsh but there is a point where practicality meets the ashphalt.

Part of my indignation arises from past days under the influence of so much prosperity\\WOF constructs and even the borrowing of the greater majority of the evangelical ... setup. I wonder aloud what would happen if the members did a turn about and gave from the heart against this proscription? In both ways. That is, on the one hand those who can hardly afford to be giving anything though they might desire to, were upheld by those that could and that well beyond the "10%" litmus test. Even this very site, SermonIndex ... God will provide indeed. But to secure something as seemingly inconsequential as a new laptop for Greg appeared to be a strain at the resources of those of us who freely consume from the depth of this well.

This is and will always be a matter of heart and conscience, not prodding nor guilt association (despite my own beef mentioned a moment ago) nor manipulation. My ire gets up on a number of fronts over this. The flip flopping itself is one often conducive to all the past absorbed teachings, though they may be distanced they still come. As an example ... After we left the prosperity nonsense and went to another church, one that was at least disassociated from these things, we happened to arrive just at the time they were starting up their building program. Being naive on the one hand and yet still apparently effected by so much prior teaching, we attended their kick-off event and though we had only been there a month 'decided'(and 'prayed') that we would contribute 10K over the course of a couple, three years. I cannot and will not blame them but would to God that a man of the grasp and stature of Zac Poonen or George Mueller would have had the foresight to not only take note of the fact that we were very, very new members but if they new us better, that we were also under a mountain of debt as well. Again, I take the responsibility for my ignorance at that time, we should never had made such a commitment under a sense of obligation and compulsion. It was sheer foolishness.

Look, there is far too much of this in Christianity in this day. It is a contorting of the sheep - It is largely based upon a give to get scheme no matter how well it is polished up to look otherwise. This is the impression put into the mind, that it is [i]attached[/i] to monetary giving. We have all but forgotten the point of [i]But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be done in secret[/i]. Nobody knows but God, what might a teaching be upon this exhortation, that we ought to be trying as hard as possible to conceal that which is seen by men? How might it also apply to those who are being torn asunder because nothing more would please them then to give their money and themselves to the Lord in [i]secret[/i] and with no expectation of anything, just their desire to do so, [i]but[/i] they are shackled to this debt that is like a dead weight always upon their shoulder, often keeping them occupied with how to get out from underneath it so that they can give that which is burning inside them to give .... I am telling you, you have no idea how difficult it is. To do so sounds like boasting or pie in the sky 'what if' scenarios but I have been laboring long under this and it kills me when I want to secretly give to this very place and many, many others but know that this debt must be dealt with and dealt with first. The accumulation of interest alone is insanity. You can pay a fraction over your minimum and if you have some high interest debts paying $100 on a $50 minimum payment you may have just evened out, your principle ekes down a couple of bucks a month. There are other complications I have here with not everyone on the same page, it becomes a broken record, the economy is in very bad shape if anyone has taken notice and I am often torn between becoming something of ... a brut with the finances and just giving up on the notion of ever getting out of this hole. But I will press on and will, if need be take on even more work, every weekend if that is what it takes. I am so proud of Zac Poonen for the very fact that he does work and has seemingly told few if anybody what it is he does to earn a living outside of those in his area. What an example, what a stark contrast to ...

I have had my share of guilt ridden, self inflicted pummeling over this whole business, it creeps into your pores. Even the puritans who I love would be at odds I think in many ways with me. I do not 'tithe' any more and for the time being ... it is a secret between myself and the Lord what is done in this present time. It is very little if it must be known - out of debt. first and foremost.

I do not think many know what kind of burden this is for some of us - longing to do so much and shackled at that very point.

No offense meant to previous posters but I agree with 'crsschk' pay your debts with priority before it drag you down. I believe tithing per se is not a must for Christians, rather as the apostle Paul said:

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver"(2 Cor 9:7).

This is not a license however, to give charity or the simple mode of living with the lowest degree of consideration nor an encouragement to spend our money in a wordly manner.

The Lord put it upon my heart to begin tithing many years ago. Since I was not attending any church, I began by helping to support a missionary family. The amount that I began with was small, but I kept increasing the amount when ever possible.

Later, I incurred debt. The Lord made me aware that this was not His will - so I set my heart to pay it off - and with His help it was paid off in a short amount of time - the money just seemed to flow in. All during this time I continued tithing.

It was not long after my debt was paid off that the Lord provided me with a brand new car. Not long after that, a house that I had admired as a teenager became available for about a third of it's original value. One time when I needed money, the Lord had me find a substantial error that the bank had made on a past financial statement. One time He had me find some gold that I had forgotten that I had stashed. One time I found some money that someone had hidden in a wall . . . and it goes on and on.

Since I turned my heart to be obedient in these things, the Lord has always provided - exceedingly and abundantly - but we must do them in Him - trust in Him to direct us in the things that He has asked us to do. He is faithful, and He is true - but we can do nothing of ourselves. Only in Him.

crsschk wrote:
I am hesitating and it is difficult not to get a bit agitated over this. Our brother is 60K in debt. [i]$60,000.00[/i] If some of the more vocal commentators have not been or are not presently in this same neighborhood then it might be very easy for you to give your opinions. I am sorry, I do not mean to be harsh but there is a point where practicality meets the ashphalt.

My situation is not exactly the same as Brian (but I'm certainly in a much worse situation than you Crsschk or Brian are in, not just from monetary issues). Just because I and maybe others do not chose to say out loud our situations doesn't mean that we are giving comments flippantly. Just as you were agitated with some of the comments, so were I, but I try to learn from both sides and being self-controlled instead of getting agitated and showing the agitation in my posts.

Brian, thank you for your reply. I will try to listen to his the 12 minute message as I've not although I don't feel the necessity to listen to it immediately (unless I am compelled to later on). I've only been to his website quite some time ago.

Truly only you, your wife and God know your actual situation. I would also like to add, sometimes God may not answer for quite some time even though we feel that its imperative He answer now. You have received advise/opinions on both sides and ultimately its up to you to make up your decision and decide what is God's will.

BrianMira wrote:

learn wrote:

crsschk wrote:
I am hesitating and it is difficult not to get a bit agitated over this. Our brother is 60K in debt. [i]$60,000.00[/i] If some of the more vocal commentators have not been or are not presently in this same neighborhood then it might be very easy for you to give your opinions. I am sorry, I do not mean to be harsh but there is a point where practicality meets the ashphalt.

My situation is not exactly the same as Brian (but I'm certainly in a much worse situation than you Crsschk or Brian are in, not just from monetary issues). Just because I and maybe others do not chose to say out loud our situations doesn't mean that we are giving comments flippantly. Just as you were agitated with some of the comments, so were I, but I try to learn from both sides and being self-controlled instead of getting agitated and showing the agitation in my posts.

This seems agitated.

Nope. There have been quite a few times where I felt Crsshk have gone overboard towards others (not myself)in other threads and have often wanted to correct him and felt pity for the others but have always restrained myself. Finally I did in this thread although I am well aware that he may not be referring to me at all when he wrote this. I'm hoping that he sees the error of his ways where he gets angry/agitated and start saying things that maybe is best left unsaid. Although in the post, he has been mild compared to some of the other occassions when I really wanted to step in, I decided to do it here as since I was already involved in this thread in the first place. Part of the reason why I've been reluctant to do so previously is because he is a moderator...but bear in mind as a moderator, one has an even greater obligation to show a good example to others. Partly also why I chose to do so now is because I am no longer bothered whether I get banned because I'm willing to be the bad person in doing so and in the process may get 'attacked by others'. I am currently relying on God on almost every facet of my life, and getting banned is of little concern for me at this stage.

I am no longer bothered whether I get banned because I'm willing to be the bad person in doing so and in the process may get 'attacked by others'. I am currently relying on God on almost every facet of my life, and getting banned is of little concern for me at this stage.

learn wrote:

Nope. There have been quite a few times where I felt Crsshk have gone overboard towards others (not myself)in other threads and have often wanted to correct him and felt pity for the others but have always restrained myself. Finally I did in this thread although I am well aware that he may not be referring to me at all when he wrote this. I'm hoping that he sees the error of his ways where he gets angry/agitated and start saying things that maybe is best left unsaid. Although in the post, he has been mild compared to some of the other occassions when I really wanted to step in, I decided to do it here as since I was already involved in this thread in the first place. Part of the reason why I've been reluctant to do so previously is because he is a moderator...but bear in mind as a moderator, one has an even greater obligation to show a good example to others. Partly also why I chose to do so now is because I am no longer bothered whether I get banned because I'm willing to be the bad person in doing so and in the process may get 'attacked by others'. I am currently relying on God on almost every facet of my life, and getting banned is of little concern for me at this stage.

Hopefully you won't see this as an attack, but just another brother asking a brother a few questions.

Have you addressed this (these) situation/s biblically, or just on the main message board?

Also, stating that...

I am no longer bothered whether I get banned because I'm willing to be the bad person in doing so and in the process may get 'attacked by others'. I am currently relying on God on almost every facet of my life, and getting banned is of little concern for me at this stage.

...contradicts scripture. Brother, the Lord says...

[u][b]Romans 12:9-21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. Therefore

“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It concerns me, not that you rebuke Crrschk, but that you would be so flipant about your Christian fellowship here. Many brothers and sister around the globe are watching and reading how YOU are living your life. Is the example that you are bringing to the plate, as in not caring about the outcome of your actions regardless if they are right or wrong, Christ like?

Brother, pray about this. With much love.

Here is another message Zac preached at a local church nearby for consideration;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15951]What Jesus Taught About Money [/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15952]What Jesus Taught About Money (video) [/url]

Learn,

Thank you for the rebuke. Too many times I have walked away regretful over poor choice of words, reacting on impulse, being unclear or otherwise just flat wrong in my assesments. My apologies to all.

To return the favor (not the volley);

To me, stopping giving to God completely just to clear off all debts completely (without more substantial reasons eg: dire situation) smacks of the world (and not of God).

On the contrary, this would be considerd the fringe in the majority of present day Christianity. I cannot think of anyone - even the financial ministires that are dedicated soely to this purpose that would ever suggest anything but holding the line of 'tithing'. It is a mantra that rarely get's a real hard look. This is my agitation indeed. It is of the same fabric that Paul Washer just got done speaking so vocaly about. Manipulation is the word, subtle and overt, the subliminal message put to the conscience is one that suggests God is unhappy because you did not part with a portion of ones money. Most of what is fowarded is, to my mind a very surface level application of the scriptures- Borrowing from Malachi - All the ususal verses. There is a great deal of waffling;

I also believe that at times God may chose not to answer us because common sense should tell us what's the right answer.

Precisely, and what might that common sense be?

Imagine if we were to cut ourselves badly and need medical help, do we have to pray to God and wait for an answer from God to see whether we should go and see a doctor. I hope that this will help some (its not my intention to be a bit harsh here but I am unable to put it into softer words without it losing its meaning completely, maybe due to my own limitations. I'm also not saying that in the case of Brian, his situation is not dire etc or his question is wrong etc, because only he and God know the actual situation and the question/discussion may also help others)

But you are suggesting as much by saying "I am not saying". I know something of your situation from other mentions but they are not the same. Dare I say you are blessed and we are cursed? I think you are waffling here trying to play both sides of the equation. I have been flat broke for a season and in great debt at the same time. Was even tremendously helped in a time of need by some incredible brothers from the very midst
of this forum, something that I will never ever forget. As Brian noted and I concur, both of us having the blessedness of hindsight and of a earlier conversion certainly would have gone about things differently and never allowed ourselves to get into the situations we now find ourselves in.

[i]No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.[/i] Mat 6:24

Think real hard about this verse. The usual take is too general and concentrates on the love aspect. What about the hate side of it? Debt is a master and a slave driver, it can be a self impossed imprisonment due to agradizment, the penchant for having to have everything now, the antithesis of delayed gratification, easy credit and not to forget the very poor teaching that is all about modern day Chrisitanity - That ones giving is tied directly to God's blessing (and the subtle opposite that a lack of it meets His disapproval. How strange that the very verses often used do not penetrate to the bones and marrow, that the Lord also depsises those feast days and giving that are disconnected from reality. How many are using this crutch of a tithe as a replacement for their very life, heart and soul - Having done this 'part', this meager 10 cents on the dollar can sit back convinced that it is enough or for those of means that contribute very large sums that this also somehow makes up for a lack of reality, in spirit and in truth?

I am aggitated at these notions that are quasi-spiritual and far more some falacious accounting entires into a divine ledger. But the hate aspect ... It is true! Either one or the other. I hate money, I really truly do. Not that it is a evil in and of itself but that it can be a [i]master[/i], a ruler and never so much more than to be under it's structure of debt. Did not the Lord speak a great deal about this? Not just money, but debt and debtors? And what about that very challenging word about shrewdness? The people of the world vs, the children of the light?

The long way around point of all this and hope there is a realization of having gone off in generalities here is that there is a great paradox in understanding over matters of money. There was a time when I would pray "Oh, that Ed McMhan would call"- "That I might find that wining lottery ticket lying on the ground" and a whole host of other foolish notions, not forget the whole diabolical scheming of prosperity teachers promising me everything from a house to financial windfalls from 'giving to the Lord', the multiplcation-corruption ... Even now with a better understanding, the last thing in the world needed is a financial windfall. For a fact it wouldn't faze me one bit, but for those I live with it would be utter destruction, there is a comeplete disconnect on the sheer ruin that would be brought from such a curse. See the paradox? I cringe when I get paid knowing that somehow or another I will again be thwarted in the attempt to pay off debt by the perceived 'needs', the waste and cavalier attitude towards x-number of dollars coming in and x-number going out. It is as plain as day but it is contorted to be one of a miser and the other as a free spending ... I digress. It has been 10 years at least now of this struggle, the last four was enough to have been free from the shackles and yet here it is, still hardly making a dent in the overall picture. I hate it vehemently, hate this master and until it's head is lopped off and I am freed from his grip I will despise him.

And Learn, your misconception about being 'banned' is faulty, it is pride to think that you are being the 'bad guy', you will find no sympathy from me with such a comment. You are not even close to being the worm that I am.

it is pride to think that you are being the 'bad guy', you will find no sympathy from me with such a comment. You are not even close to being the worm that I am.

To PaulWest, Chrsshk,

If you think I'm stirring drama or being flippant or playing both sides etc-- No, I'm not. I'm not even going to bother to answer the accusations and attacks that have been leveled here as I see its no point judging from your responses.

Miccah,
I'm going to keep it short as I have neither the interest to discuss further and have no wish for others like Paul West etc to continue accuse me of stirring up drama. The thoughts that I expressed has been with me for quite some time now and I did talk with God on certain things in this forum. One should follow Scripture but do I feel its really being practised faithfully in writing of posts is another thing.

Suffice to say I'll not reply further to anyone or make any new posts as I can see where this will be heading which will not be beneficial to anyone.

I cringe when I get paid knowing that somehow or another I will again be thwarted in the attempt to pay off debt by the perceived 'needs', the waste and cavalier attitude towards x-number of dollars coming in and x-number going out. It is as plain as day but it is contorted to be one of a miser and the other as a free spending ...

Set your heart upon the Lord in the matter - and He will make it happen - and He will change the hearts of your family.

EDIT: As I reflected upon this further...the Lord has been showing me something recently: that which I worry about (fear) invariably seems to take place. I think that this is due to fearing something other than the Lord - not trusting Him - unbelief. Somehow having concern seems to release the powers to bring about the very thing that I am concerned about - fear bringing about that which I fear. So the next time you pick up your paycheck - just trust in Him. Your battle is not against your family - it is against Satan. If you are harboring any resentment toward your family in the matter, you are adding fuel to your own fire.

The long way around point of all this and hope there is a realization of having gone off in generalities here is that there is a great paradox in understanding over matters of money. There was a time when I would pray "Oh, that Ed McMhan would call"- "That I might find that wining lottery ticket lying on the ground" and a whole host of other foolish notions, not forget the whole diabolical scheming of prosperity teachers promising me everything from a house to financial windfalls from 'giving to the Lord', the multiplcation-corruption ... Even now with a better understanding, the last thing in the world needed is a financial windfall. For a fact it wouldn't faze me one bit, but for those I live with it would be utter destruction, there is a comeplete disconnect on the sheer ruin that would be brought from such a curse. See the paradox? I cringe when I get paid knowing that somehow or another I will again be thwarted in the attempt to pay off debt by the perceived 'needs', the waste and cavalier attitude towards x-number of dollars coming in and x-number going out. It is as plain as day but it is contorted to be one of a miser and the other as a free spending ... I digress. It has been 10 years at least now of this struggle, the last four was enough to have been free from the shackles and yet here it is, still hardly making a dent in the overall picture. I hate it vehemently, hate this master and until it's head is lopped off and I am freed from his grip I will despise him.

Just wanted to say how much I appreciated this, laughed out loud over the Ed McMahn statement, and can very much relate to the issue of "hoping for a windfall", and indeed how harmful such can be.

Just a thought, it seems that within the equation of what is taught by some as "tithing" is missing the teaching of Paul in 2 Cor. 8:13-15. It is disconcerting that there seems to be a lack of understanding within some teachings regarding the area of "burden", where those who have plenty give so that those who have little have enough... sometimes it seems that with the issue of [b]money[/b] there is never [u]enough[/u]... but more like our purses have holes in them and the drain never tires of taking what we may not even have.

It has been an arduous journey to be "debt free", one I do not envy any person!!! And now that we are it is still very difficult to maintain standards of living which are low enough to [i]have to give to those who have need[/i]. And as many have said, a lot of times all we can do is pray, pray, pray; for wisdom, for discernment, for understanding, and for opportunity.

The account of helping the mother with the dental issue was a very precious one... because to me, it speaks of that very thing that Jesus taught that we should do (unlike the Pharisees)... Mk 7:11,12

Just wanted to say that this discussion has been a blessing to me and has been very helpful!

Thank you,
In Christ,
Lori

Brother Mike thanks for the message from Zac Poonen. I really like his spirit concerning money and the proper use of it. I think he is very much right on and I do have some area’s of concern in my own life also in the area of giving.

We have raised our two children in the fear and admonition of the Lord but I feel I could have done better but I’m thankful for God’s grace and mercy. I started tithing right after I got saved and a few months before I was to be married I was laid off, and I started receiving unemployment checks which were much less. I still tithed and also got married because I believed God would make a way. I have been tithing now for around 25 years and also giving some to missions. We have taught our two children to tithe and they are both working now and we have notice that they are tithing. I have also notice that my daughter has also recently started giving monthly to missions. She is planning her wedding in the spring and will need money and I am also helping her. Brother this really blesses my heart to see her giving to God and his causes. There are so many coming up today who don’t even think about making God first in their giving. I heard a report one time that stated only 20% of Christians was tithing. Some would even make a statement to say that how could a real Christian if they have the means not be a giver.

I must say I’m not writing this to be critical of someone who gives as God prospers them but don’t call it tithing. I’m just writing about God’s faithfulness to those who trust Him in their giving and that He also looks out for them. There are some things that concern me about giving and to make sure it is going to the proper place that the Lord would have one to give. I notice brother Zac said that it was a curse to give to the rich. I also believe that we are to give to a real need and not to the rich. I also like what he said about giving to Caesar what is his and to the Lord what is His. I have been concern about the way my own denomination is being so much about money here lately in trying to control everything to the point of wanting to know every penny that the ministers are getting to make sure that they give the proper % on their reports. I have wrestled some myself on giving everything the conference wants us to do and some real needs I would like to do. I have a house payment and am not able to save at this present time but I am very thankful.

I don’t have any savings right now and to be honest I don’t know how to save all you can and give all you can. I am able to pay my bills and meet other obligations and I thank God for that. There are some that are very strong about tithing off of your gross but I am starting to wonder about what Jesus said about rendering to Caesar before He mention God. I’m beginning to think that because the money is coming from Caesar that he already has a hold on the taxes before we actually get the money. The gross is never actually ours in the 1st place then that would make the net only really ours that was earned. Then the net would be where one would start from. I have notice that some ministers and their churches are having a hard time doing what the conference requires.

I only want to be in the Lord’s will and I am not a denominational person because I believe the Church is built only on Jesus Christ. I am not against organization but we are not to organize the Holy Spirit and His work. I only want to please the Lord and not go against His Word.

thanks for the great thread

Hello all, I have had some trouble with these things too, and I would love some points to Scripture or thoughts from any brother or sister on here as I bring these things before the Lord as well.

I also am in considerable college debt (from before meeting Christ), and am in a similar situation to the poster, but it doesn't have too much to do with my dilemna.

I have not had any conviction to tithe other than the fact that its the "right thing to do". I have given before to various missions gladly that I agree is promoting the gospel biblically. The church that I attend I cannot seem to give to comfortably because of the way the gospel is preached and the missions programs being wishy-washy. Am I to give regardless of that? I've been awakened to many of the old paths, and consequently it has been very hard to find a sound church! I want to be pleasing to God, and I am just confused a bit here. I know I am to submit to elders, but on the other hand I am to be discerning as well. Has anyone else been in a similar situation or can point me to a thread that maybe this has been discussed?

To know the heart of God and what He wants for our finances is all that matters. DO as the Lord leads, and you will not go wrong.

Learn brother,

That is an interesting combination of words, using your nickname but I would put it to myself, [i]learn[/i].

Am not at all pleased that I have given you grief here dear brother. Thinking on this throughout the day, recalling to mind those things you have shared in the past .. I do not know just how difficult it is for you and it was very wrong for me to make such an assessment, forgive me. Nothing would be more wonderful than to surprise you with some monetary help, in secret, anonymously ... perhaps some day long after this is all forgotten, after the debts have been put away for good, something shows up in your mailbox to warm your heart and lift up your soul. Dear brother, again forgive me for the poor way I often jump between generalities and ... indignation, it was not to be directed [i]at[/i] you.

Thanks HeartSong, there is something to your mention and it is complicated and difficult to divulge everything here. The fear ... is more centered around just keeping peace, not compromise mind you, things are not that out of control, the role is understood and practiced. It is almost hypocritical of me to be on the one hand complaining when, after trying everything under the sun; harsh and 'laying down the law', too soft on the opposite extreme and coming to the point where I told myself I will patiently wait on the Lord to do what He would have me do. The verses come from all over the place in this regard, 1Co 7:33, for instance but it is not worth the upheaval and disruption of the home to do what my flesh tells me ... an interesting mention there in itself.

I found rbanks mentions just as true, I don't see this is all very black and white, there is a lot of perspective and a great deal of misunderstanding on how and why tithing was practiced under the law, a lot of it very surprising taken back to the scriptures themselves and out of the hands of what has become this great construct. It's not the do or don't of it that gets me but the coercion and abuse and the very shaky proscriptions that undergird it. It's almost as if there is a fear to truly examine it without ... well a lot of emotion, apparently even my own just in reaction.

There are some very long posts in this regard here, a lot to go through and consider, will dig them up and post them later.

The subject of Christian giving is one in which there is as much disagreement as speaking in tongues.

If a believer chooses to give to God by the tithe, that is fine, but it should not be given as a matter of law, because he feels that he has to do it or the curse of God will be on his life.

New Testament giving is giving by grace, and the principle is "as a man purposes in his heart, so let him give". It is Spirit directed giving. That does not relieve our responsibility to be good stewards with our finances.

The truth is that everything that we have is the Lords. He should be Lord of all.

Mike

Some older threads;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1696&forum=36]Tithing - new testament practice or not?[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1788&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=0]Tithing is not a Old Testament Law ![/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17468&forum=36]is tithing for today??[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9651&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]How about tithing nowadays?[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20699&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed[/url]

A lot to sift through and if you note the dates some go far back to the inception of SI. The last link contains a lot of heat so be forewarned, maybe the best consideration is that all of this be taken as just that, consideration.

Thank you for the links, brother.

To add to our 'drama'... we suddenly were forced to pay a $3000 deposit for our apartment and then an additional $1200 for three months rent. This is not a huge concern, since it allows us to have a secured place to live, rather than being a slave to employers who usually pay those fees, but the concern comes back to the debt, which still remains.

We are also forced to delay paying any interest or principal. Who is my master?

Are you certain that this apartment situation is the will of the Lord? Did you pray before you committed to it? Did you wait and listen for His answer? It has been my experience that the things that I do that are within His will do not incur any liabilities. If His Word never contradicts itself, how could it be that He would have you get into a situation that would incur more debt?

When you say:

"This is not a huge concern, since it allows us to have a secured place to live," it sounds like your logic, rather than something that you have done in response to the Lord.

I am not trying to pick you apart here, truly I am only trying to help. Our words show the condition and direction of our heart and the things you are saying remind me of myself.

As for a "secured place to live" . . . I had a brand new house literally fall apart around me. Praise the Lord it was still within the 1 year warranty as it cost the builder $85K just to fix the foundational problems. It cost me 15K to find out why I could not breathe in my "own" house. The levels of fiberglass and mold were so high that I could not even enter the house without a mask, and even the residue on my clothing made me gasp for air. While I am sure I prayed about buying the house, I am equally sure that I did not wait for His answer for my heart was turned toward having it, rather than waiting to hear what He would have me to do. When our heart is turned away, we can not hear.

As it turned out, the house was only part of the problem - I had taken a wrong turn in life, and in His mercy, the Lord pressed ever harder until I turned in the direction that He would have me to go - for this is what I had asked Him to do and will be eternally grateful for His answer to that prayer.

"In all things" - we are to be obedient "in all things." Even the little things are great in the eyes of the Lord - maybe even more so because they appear to be small and we obey even when it looks like something else is the logical answer.

Is it the debt that is the problem? Or is it that we are not being obedient to the Lord in the things that we are choosing.

Deuteronomy 14:23
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
(KJV)

The purpose of tithing is to teach you to put God first in your lives.
(The Living Bible)

Zac Poonen
From Babylon to Jersusalem
- Nehemiah 05-9 & 10 (@ 50:32)