Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sawg2PX2aI

The Lord has taught that no one is able to come to Him unless is drawn by Him. Furthermore, the Lord declared that all of those given to Him by the Father would come to Him. Therefore, some were not given to Him by the Father.

However, at the same time, it is the fault of the lost man if he perishes, for he has pursued sin.

Let's beware of finding fault with God for doing as He pleases with His creation. I think we would all say it is just for God to send us [b]all[/b] to hell, so, if we are consistent with our own claims, we should all say it is merciful for God to choose [b]some[/b] to save.

But let no one presume upon the Lord's sovereignty, the Lord commands all men everywhere to repent and believe.

brother Krispy based on your comments I don't think you watched the video. It is 31 minutes and very good explanation. I pray that brothers and sisters watch it and it generates honest, loving discussion.

brother krispy you are a blessing.

Every now and then a light beams through.

I like that comment you made about being a Calvinistic Armenian.

Ricky,

Thanks for posting this bro.

The Bible is clear, in context. 2 Peter 3 is not a passage about soteriology and to make verse 9 a statement about it is to ignore its context completely.

Blessings,

Jon

I believe the doctrines of grace are true, thogh I do not understand all of the Lord's ways concerning who and how he saves men.

I think this question can answered, and even understood; by asking the opposite question:

"Does God predestinate *some men to Eteral life?"

If the answer by yea to this question, then I
think then the answer would by yea to the question you asked.

If one can only come to Christ is the Father has drawn him, and given him to Christ-then what is to be said of those of whom the Father never drew-or what of such men as Judas, who is called the son of perdition. If God predestinated his only begotton Son to come into the world to save those sinners that were given to him by the Father, then what of those were not given to the Son predestinated to save those that were given to him?

However, I am at work, and they block youtube so I can't see the video until I get home.

i want to recomend david bercots book "will the real heretic please stand up" . He proves this heretical doctrine false.This is a man made doctrine and no where to be found in the word of God.

Deu 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is a man made doctrine and no where to be found in the word of God.

[i]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i] (Romans 9:18-20)

I don't know how it can be stated any plainer. The very fact that Paul anticipated the response he does, which is basically the same response many are using today - "If God has to draw us, then why are we still held responsible?" - proves that he was talking about the very thing many deny.

I understand this is not a comfortable thing to study, however, we have to take the Scripture for what it says and ascribe the Lord the sovereignty He possesses.

On a side note, the early, post-apostolic (even some during the apostolic age - see Corinth, Galatia, Laodecia, etc.) Christians believed some very heretical things, therefore, simply to believe that their beliefs must have been true because of the sheer antiquity of them is a bad way to go about ascertaining true doctrine.

I feel Romans 9 gives a lot of authority to Calvinism, but we must treat this great truth with care. The doctrine of election has unsearchable depths to it. Just like the Cross, much of it remains a mystery. To try and bring God's sovereignty and man's responsibility together by reasoning and debate has been the cause of grievous splits in once strong church assemblies. The fact is that we don't know who the elect are and we're called to evangelise.

Does got predestinate men to hell? All I know is that all men were bound for hell and God in His mercy saved some.

Romans 9 v 12-25

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

On a side note, the early, post-apostolic (even some during the apostolic age - see Corinth, Galatia, Laodecia, etc.) Christians believed some very heretical things, therefore, simply to believe that their beliefs must have been true because of the sheer antiquity of them is a bad way to go about ascertaining true doctrine.

these passages speak nothing about their doctrine, it says they lacked works. The thing is, the early christians saw this doctrine as heresy, i mean men who was taught by the apostle John. Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.

They dident believe this, in fact there where people teaching this doctrines, it was the gnostics
and in fact John calls these antichrist in his first epistle.

What i mean is this , yes God elects people, to be conformed after His son Jesus. Not if one should go to hell or heaven. And if one cares to study the early church, they dont see two sides, as we do, calvinism and arminianism. They saw one. And in fact, as you say the bible is plain, God wants all to come to repentance. If this election is true, that God elects people to hell, then it would make God the author of evil.

And he is not.

Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.

Friend, I've read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians more than once, and it never says anything contrary to the teaching of predestination. And it certainly never says anything that could be taken as saying that predestination was a heresy. The letter even speaks of the "elect of God" in the first few sentences.

Furthermore, let's just assume you are correct in saying that God elects people to be conformed to Christ. I agree with this statement. However, I believe you are not following the consequences of your statement. If God elects some to be conformed to the image of Christ, that means they are elected to share in His righteousness by imputation, therefore, those who are not elect to be conformed to the image of Christ are not elected to share in that righteousness. So, if they are not elect to share in that righteousness, they are not going to be saved.

To say that God elects certain people to be conformed to the image of Christ is the same thing as saying He elects people to go to heaven.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.

Friend, I've read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians more than once, and it never says anything contrary to the teaching of predestination. And it certainly never says anything that could be taken as saying that predestination was a heresy. The letter even speaks of the "elect of God" in the first few sentences.

Furthermore, let's just assume you are correct in saying that God elects people to be conformed to Christ. I agree with this statement. However, I believe you are not following the consequences of your statement. If God elects some to be conformed to the image of Christ, that means they are elected to share in His righteousness by imputation, therefore, those who are not elect to be conformed to the image of Christ are not elected to share in that righteousness. So, if they are not elect to share in that righteousness, they are not going to be saved.

To say that God elects certain people to be conformed to the image of Christ is the same thing as saying He elects people to go to heaven.

you are right about polycarp, i was hasty in writing which is always a bad thing, but i took an example and the early church is for the most part united in their beliefs and also in this belief although polycarp did not say about election some very respected others of the early church and their writings do, i will provide quotes later, and these men are just one man away from Polycarp. i will write a long thorough post later my friend.

i hope not, and it seems that it is possible from reading the scripture and how the Lord hardens peoples hearts to not believe and even blinds their eyes and ears, correct me if i am wrong. I think scripture says both personally. But maybe that is why we our to preach the gospel to all. I remember when Jesus told the pharisees that they were not of his sheep but of the father the devil. They were not of his, so maybe that is how it is today, some our Gods and some aren't. But i truly have no idea, has anybody prayed about this and got an answer from God. From what my friend from biblequery.com told me from the early church fathers believed you could lose your salvation and that all were called by God.

If they are one man away from Polycarp, that means they are two men away from the Apostles - which is two men too many.

I agree, division is a bad thing. I hate it just like other Christians, friend. It doesn't bring me joy to see Christians divided.

I do not try and help people understand the doctrines of grace so I can pat myself on the back - I simply know what comfort knowing that God, in rich, free grace, has chosen His people without any shred of worth in them, and that He will never let them go. He is truly our Good Shepherd.

I probably will not have much more time to contribute anything else to this thread.

***edit***

They were not of his, so maybe that is how it is today, some our Gods and some aren't. But i truly have no idea, has anybody prayed about this and got an answer from God.

We have an answer from God in the Scripture - no need to seek for things already revealed. Our Lord plainly stated to the Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not His sheep - He did [b]not[/b] say that they were not His sheep because they did not believe. See the difference?

The Word of God teaches predestination but it also teaches the responsibility of man. Here is a quote from Spurgeon:

"The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

Listen to the scriptures in James 2:19-20 (KJV) 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The bible says believing and putting your faith in the Living Christ is two different things. True faith results in action. Jesus said that we could not come to him unless we were drawn by the spirit. The Father is not going to draw us to Christ unless we truly repent and put our trust in Him. The convicting work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Stephen told the Pharisee’s that they were resisting the Holy Spirit.

If any man will hear the gospel…believe what Jesus did for them on the cross and that he arose from the dead? If he becomes convicted by the Holy Spirit…believes in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for his sins, repents and places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and is regenerated by the Holy Spirit then God has saved him. He has been elected in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Those in Christ are the elect…those outside of Christ are the non-elect. No one has ever been elected apart from Christ. The bible says all mankind (Jesus represented all mankind) was in Christ when He died on the Cross. The regenerated man (all penitent who place faith in Christ) is raised up with Christ.

The new man is regenerated in Christ and the old man is crucified in Christ. The elected is in relation to Christ and those who believe in Christ. The problem we have is that we try to figure out with our finite understanding. Man can resist the Holy Spirit is a fact of scripture and a man desiring to believe is given grace to accomplish of the Holy Spirit what he can not do of himself and that is a fact from scripture.

It is of vital importance that men hear the gospel in order for faith to be created. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There needs to be the powerful preaching of the word that will bring men to conviction. Some receive conviction and some reject it. Most that finally come to conviction and believe unto salvation had at least once resisted the promptings of the Spirit. Sadly there will be those who resist it until it is too late and they will be the non-elect because they rejected Christ…God’s only Son. He is the only way any of us can be elected. God has never elected a person who doesn’t believe and will never damn a person as non-elect who has trusted in Christ completely.

It is not about deciding who the elect are or who the non-elect are…it is about bringing men to the Living Christ and those who come and receive Him as their Lord and Savior are the elect in Christ and those who resist Him completely are the non-elect because God has only predestined only those in his Son, everything else will be in Hell. Everything outside of Christ is predestined to go to hell. It will be all of Christ in heaven. You can wrestle with the doctrines of men to your own destruction and go to hell, or you can trust and in live in Christ to the glory of God.

rbanks,

So, based on your statement that Christ only draws those who are truly penitent, I take it you believe that Paul was truly penitent on the Damascus road, and that is why Christ appeared to Him and called Paul to Himself?

Christ draws them to Himself, and makes hard-hearted sinners penitent. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Excellent video, thanks for posting it.

Brother Mark Kieler does a wonderful job of presenting the false understanding (hyper-Calvinistic) view of “double predestination” that many attribute to those that hold to the doctrines of grace. This erroneous view is often used as the straw man in many poor refutations on the market today. Brother Kieler continues by thoroughly explaining the true and proper historic view held by those that are not “Hyper” in their beliefs.

If you are wondering about this subject, please take the time to view this video. Not to be persuaded, but to be informed. It is okay to disagree. The problem is that often times the Calvinism many people disagree with is based on false presumptions and misinformation. This leads to a type of Calvinism many Calvinist would also disagree with. There have already been comments made on this thread that show a classic misunderstanding of this theology. I will not be pointing them out. I have no intention of debate.

This video does a great job of explaining something that needs to be explained.

Grace and peace

TaylorOtwell wrote:
rbanks,

So, based on your statement that Christ only draws those who are truly penitent, I take it you believe that Paul was truly penitent on the Damascus road, and that is why Christ appeared to Him and called Paul to Himself?

I don't see how true regeneration can take place in a person who is not penitent.

We don't know what God was doing in Paul up until this time. We know that He was witnessing the stoning of Stephen. We are also know that he was very diligent in his Jewist faith and was striving diligently to please the God of his Father's. The many persecutions he was involved in, he said he did it ignorantly in unbelief.

We don't know for sure what was going on in his heart. We also know after his conversion that he said God had mercy on him the chief of sinners as a pattern for all those who would believe.

hmmhmm wrote:
i want to recomend david bercots book "will the real heretic please stand up" . He proves this heretical doctrine false.This is a man made doctrine and no where to be found in the word of God.

Deu 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Good post, Christian. That book helped me a lot with this issue.

taylorotwell thank you for putting that straightforward to me.

I don't see how true regeneration can take place in a person who is not penitent.

That is because we are approaching this from two different views on regeneration. I, and others who share such convictions, believe that regeneration proceeds faith and is not dependent on any merit or cause in the creature. However, you, and others who share your conviction, believe that regeneration follows a response on the creature's part. That discussion has probably already been addressed in length somewhere else on this site.

I would humbly suggest that a thorough review of Ezekiel 36:26-27 would be helpful.

Bible1985: I'm humbled to be of service to you.

repentcanada,

Thanks for posting the link, but I can't watch youtube videos due to the internet filter we use.

I would like to ask the calvinists on here, how is double predestination not true if your view of predestination is right. How can you have one without the other? As you know, I don't believe in predestination as taught in calvinism, but I have wondered this. Thanks!

Sorry…I use Motrin. :-)

Hi TaylorOtwell,

I believe that Ephesians 1:13 is teaching us that after faith in Christ has taken place, then Salvation takes place (The sealing of the Spirit):

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Yours in Christ,
John

3rddaymsngr wrote:

God forbid!...that it was the Word that gave you the headache. Now wouldn't that be a parodox?!

Now here is the kicker. Would you have gotten the headache in the first place if you didn't read this post, or was the headache predestined regardless of this post? :-P

I would like to ask the calvinists on here, how is double predestination not true if your view of predestination is right. How can you have one without the other? As you know, I don't believe in predestination as taught in calvinism, but I have wondered this. Thanks!

This video is not denying the doctrine of double predestination. It is refuting an incorrect view of it called, “Equal Ultimacy”.

This erroneous understanding of double predestination is thought by some non-Calvinists to be the view held by Calvinists.

Grace and peace

Hi TaylorOtwell, I believe that Ephesians 1:13 is teaching us that after faith in Christ has taken place, then Salvation takes place (The sealing of the Spirit): Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Yours in Christ, John

Hi John,

Thanks for responding. I wasn't trying to state that salvation precedes faith. I agree with you, salvation takes place after faith. I was stating that regeneration precedes faith and gives the sinner the desire to believe.

In other words, our blind eyes are opened and we can see the beauty of the gospel and Christ which we once did not care for.

2nd Corinthians 4:6 may prove helpful:

[i]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[/i]

As God said "Let there be light" into the darkness at the creation of the world. Likewise, God said "Let there be light" into the darkness of our souls in redemption. It was the Lord who took the initiative in speaking into the darkness that was our souls.

Brother Taylor, so you are saying that God doesn’t throw out a life line to two people in the water going down stream to an unknown waterfall that will result in sudden destruction. But what he does is…he tries to warn the people, but it’s not up to them to heed the warning, he just uses a crane and grabs one of them out and decides to leave the other to sudden destruction.

Perhaps I would describe it allegorically like this - though I don't believe this allegory completely fits the situation:

The Lord is on the bank. All of mankind of is swimming as fast as they can away from the bank - because they hate God and would rather see Him murdered than ruling their lives. What some don't know, is that they are swimming towards the waterfall. Some hate God so much they would rather swim over the waterfall than return to Him, though He has warned all of them what will be their fate. However, in infinite mercy, instead of letting everyone of those vile sinners swim off the waterfall, God pulls the rock-hard, stone heart out of some, opens their eyes, and they see the infinite beauty of God and return to Him by His grace.

As explained by Mark Kieler:

There are two streams both flowing the same way.

There are two boys, one on each stream, each with a toy boat.

One boy (boy A) grabs his boat and forces it upstream keeping his hand on it the entire way while the other (boy B) simply releases his boat and allows for the stream to take it to its final destination.

Did both boys predetermine what they wanted the boat to do and where they wanted it to end up?

Yes.

Did the boy who let the boat go need to add anything of his effort to the boat to ensure that it went where it was already heading?

No.

He simply took his hand off and allowed for nature to take its course. This latter boy is an example of what is known as reprobation in double predestination. Both boats are going to a destination, but the boy who kept his hand on the boat and pushed it up the river was actively involved in the task against the natural course of things while the boy who simply let it go was passively allowing for what he predestined to come to pass (the natural course of things).

Many people argue against double predestination while using boy A as the metaphor for what God does. (Boy A [God] pushing the boat [man] up river [toward sin] while the river in Boy A's situation [man's inclination to being born good and doing good, wanting to be saved] is trying to get the boy to do what's right while the boy A [God] is not letting that happen.)

This, in logic, is called a straw man fallacy. That means that they're arguing a position that isn't advocated by the person they're arguing against, destroying that argument, then going off to claim victory for themselves.

The correct position is that boy B [God] is restraining the boat [man] from going downstream to its fatal end off a cliff [reprobation]. Boy B then lets his hand off the boat and allows it to go get what will naturally happen. Note that in the first example man's condition is seen as pretty much good while in the latter, man's condition is seen as sinful and "condemned already for not believing on the only begotten son of God." (John 3:18).

*******************************

The video does a much better job.

Grace and peace

tjservant wrote:

I would like to ask the calvinists on here, how is double predestination not true if your view of predestination is right. How can you have one without the other? As you know, I don't believe in predestination as taught in calvinism, but I have wondered this. Thanks!

This video is not denying the doctrine of double predestination. It is refuting an incorrect view of it called, “Equal Ultimacy”.

This erroneous understanding of double predestination is thought by some non-Calvinists to be the view held by Calvinists.

Grace and peace

Thanks, TJ! As I said, I can't watch the video even though I'd like to.

Hi Taylor,

I appreciate your response as well. In regards to the light spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:6, would you see this as the same light referred to in John 1:9, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" ?

Yours in Christ,
John

Hi John,

Well, Paul describes this light as "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ", and in verse 4 describes this light as simply "the gospel".

So, I probably wouldn't make a total connection with this light and the light described in John, which appears to be describing Christ himself.

Grace to you.

Hello all...

Forgive me for not reading this entire thread, but I just wanted to make a single comment. If God has actually "predestined" for a few to be saved -- doesn't that mean everyone else is going to Hell? In this sense, the rest are (by default) "predestined" to go to Hell.

Of course, this goes if we believe the interpretation of the word "predestined" in the Calvinist sense -- that God has "chosen" a few to be saved. If we go along with the notion that "predestination" is only "predestination" because God sits in [u]eternity[/u] and knows the End from the Beginning -- and already knows who will ultimately belong with Him in Eternity -- then this wouldn't make any sense.

I suppose that the whole argument can be summed up in the Scriptures that don't mention the ideas of predestination. The soul who sins will die. Don't live in sin. Don't return to a life of sin like a dog returns to his vomit. Don't run ahead of the teachings of Christ. The end cannot be good for a person who no longer walks with Christ.

I hear you on this Krispy:

This is a topic that will never be settled here and no one on either side will ever be able to fully understand this side of glory.

Thats what I know for sure about Calvinism.

Krispy

God bless,
Ricky

Clyde would have been, but no, Clyde was aborted before he came into the world.

This is Clyde, he lived until 23 and died in a car accident. Clyde was not saved for he was not one of God’s elect.

Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better if he had never been born.

Which would be better for the non-elect if they have no chance to be one of God’s elect, to be born or to be aborted?

An interesting question rbanks, but please allow me to answer, as I believe I am right in the answer you will receive.

if they have no chance

The non-elect do have a chance, but of course, they will "never freely choose" to repent and believe while they are depraved.

TaylorOtwell said,

I wasn't trying to state that salvation precedes faith. I agree with you, salvation takes place after faith. I was stating that regeneration precedes faith and gives the sinner the desire to believe.

To be regenerated is to be being saved. Unless, you honestly believe that salvation is something other than being born-again by the Spirit of Christ.

[b]Titus 3
5.[/b] [b][u]He saved us[/u][/b], not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, [b][u]by the washing of regeneration[/u] and renewing by the Holy Spirit[/b].

For this very reason I disagree with the understanding of regeneration preceding faith. It is my belief that God overcomes our evil hearts with good, that is, His "common grace" is sufficient to soften our hearts. And how much more sufficient through the Light of men, Jesus Christ, hence now God calls all men unto repentance?

If I am not mistaken the concept of regeneration preceding faith is to sustain the supposition that we must love God before we will "freely" believe in Him and repent of our evil deeds. However, I do not find such a requirement in Scripture, unless you can point it out to me. What I do see is "those who are forgiven much, love much." Is it not then true that our love of God comes from being forgiven our sins through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ which is obviously after believing unto salvation through the regeneration and cleansing work of the Holy Spirit?

Does God require us to love Him (as though we could love the Father without Christ the Son) before we can seek the One who is already seeking us and desiring to manifest Himself in us?

Just as Live4JC asked the very same question I am leading to,

In regards to the light spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:6, would you see this as the same light referred to in John 1:9, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" ?

TaylorOtwell you have neglected to take into account the full context of [b]2 Corinthians 4:4[/b], "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see [b]the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God[/b]."

So what exactly would you say the difference is between "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" and "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ"?

It is absolutely the Same Light. If it were not the Same Light then the world would not be condemned already for rejecting the Light. As you cannot reject something you have never been offered or seen. I will explain this further when I attempt to answer with a brief exposition of [b]Romans 9[/b].

It is also of interest to note that Paul says here in this letter that it is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving."

Hello 3rddaymsngr, and welcome to SI!

I believe in Predestination as taught by the Bible

My brother wisely warned me against saying things like this -- as in my own case by saying, "it's Scriptural." There is a big difference between saying things are written in the Bible and saying things are "as taught by the Bible."

To be honest, we all have an understanding of what is written in the Bible and an understanding of those things God has revealed through His Son. If what you have said is "as taught by the Bible," then by all means write "Thus saith the LORD God" with your post -- for that is the essence of what you have just said, "as taught by the Bible." And thereby condemning any variance to the authority of your beliefs and causing others to judge the words of God.

Likewise, if anyone says they were "inspired by the Holy Ghost," well then their ministry (service) better come with the power of the Holy Ghost as revealed in Scripture, with conviction of sin, conviction of righteousness, and conviction of judgment.

Is it little wonder ministers and teachers are in danger of greater condemnation?

So then, to look at the context of [b]Romans 9[/b], we see this:

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I understand this verse differently then what is commonly considered.

I take this from the perspective if "God that sheweth [b][u]no[/u] mercy[/b]," wherefore, running and willing would be in vain. If God were such that He condemned all without pardon of sin, and justly so, then there would be no use in repenting (running) or seeking after God (willing) for He would be found of no one: judgment would triumph over mercy.

However, God has first loved us (a truly great mystery) and has come to seek and save the lost, such that He is not far from anyone, for behold, He stands at the door of our hearts and knocks; He is the Light that is shining in the darkness.

Therefore, because God sheweth mercy, we may run and will by faith as He works in us those things which are according to His good pleasure.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The "[b]therefore[/b]" here is conditioned upon everything Paul just said. Which means there is a lot more to be understood from this verse when it is taken in its context; indeed, a lot more.

To begin, I believe to make such a distinction between "active mercy" upon the redeemed and "passive hardening" upon the reprobate, as explained in the video from the opening post, is inaccurate. However, I completely agree with standing against the error of "Equal Ultimacy." The difference I present to this doctrine is the way in which we understand God [b]actively[/b], rather than passively, hardening the hearts of the reprobate. The error I see comes from thinking that if God is actively working in the hearts of reprobates then God is the one authoring the sins of the world, this being obviously untrue. That is to say, if God is working in the hearts of sinners then whatever God does, it is assumed, must be effective to the salvation of all souls, as we know God is not the author of sin and He comes to save.

Let us consider the context of the hardening of Pharoah's heart in this way:
God, who is Light, actively reveals truth (through signs and miracles and judgments and working upon the conscience) and all the while Pharoah hardened his heart against the Lord, and sinned in doing so ([b]Exodus 9:34[/b]). Thus we have God who hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah who hardened his heart against the Lord. On this point AbideinHim gave us the excellent quotation by Spurgeon, that quote in part, "Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other."

I believe there is such a thing as Jonathan Edwards describes as "passive wrath," or I might describe it by the "patient wrath" or "temporal wrath" as compared to the Eternal Judgment, yet I question "passive hardening." As I do not see it as God "withdrawing Himself" but man fleeing further away from the Light -- searing his conscience against the revealed knowledge of God. Honestly, the darkness flees from the Light, not the other way around. The greater the manifestion of God's glory -- the greater the judgments upon Egypt -- the more Pharoah's heart was hardened against the Lord. If anything I would say God drawing closer, or revealing Himself, to Pharoah was the cause for the further hardening of his heart. Is it not true that we are judged according to the Light -- to the one who is given much, much is required? The one who knows to do right and does not do it, to [b][u]him[/b][/u] it is [b]sin[/b]; and again, [b]John 3:19[/b], "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world."

The very idea of "passive hardening," as has been previously mentioned by some others in this thread, gives the direct implication that God is not seeking to save all who are lost. The way predestination and election were explained in the video was something like this: if you are saved it is because God chose to regenerate you and if you are condemned it is because you chose to hate God; which is really another way of saying God still chose you, but rather chose (or "allowed") you to go on hating Him on your way to hell. Where is the Shepherd who leaves the 99 righteous to save the 1 lost, as opposed to the shepherd who leaves the 99 unrighteous to their obvious fate of everlasting fire to save the 1 righteous? Or where is the God who so loved the world and who desires that none should perish? Does He desire that none should perish without acting upon His desire -- "passively" allowing the many to go to hell?

We might argue, and indeed many have, that if God is the One who sovereignly redeems each saint then why wouldn't God redeem every sinner if His desire is that none should perish (an obvious falacy)? Is God become partial, or as others have said, is His mercy "arbitrary"? Some have told me God predestines people to everlasting wrath so that He might show His Justice ... well, is not God's Justice also perfected in the cross of calvary? What more does God need to show forth of His glory that is not wholly, perfectly satisfied, and awesomely manifested in Christ Jesus?

Predestination and election must of necessity know the God who seeks to save everyone, while yet few shall be saved against the will of God, and in no way diminishing the Sovereignty or Holiness or Mercy of God towards all men whom He has created.

[b]Romans 11
32.[/b] For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

As I have explained in this way, God can and does actively work in the hearts of reprobates with the intention of His salvation -- revealing Light to reprove our wicked hearts -- and this without being the Author of sin and further adding condemnation upon them for the Justice of His wrath against all uncleanness and ungodliness. That is, for the purpose of giving place, as it was previously mentioned, for the grieving of the Holy Spirit, [b]Acts 7:51[/b], "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." Which falls right in line with the thoughts I have laid out here: resisting the Light and witness of the Holy Spirit who has come to lead all to life in Christ.

If God says, "I have set before you life and death; now choose." I do not think to myself this is a strange command because I cannot choose or I am not willing to choose. What God commands us to do, He will not leave us to our own devices and strengths but He will lead us into obedience -- as Jesus said, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

And again, to consider the context of [b]Romans 9[/b],
Rebecca bore Isaac twins, both Jacob and Esau:
From the one lump of Rebecca's womb came forth two vessel (sons): one for honor and one for dishonor.

Thus, in this way, through both the hardening of Pharoah's heart and the story of these twins, are we to understand what Paul is trying to convey with his parable of the Potter and the clay.

If we read over the prophecy concerning these two sons, "The elder shall serve the younger." And again, it was declared, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

So then let us consider these two as set for our instruction. How did the elder come to serve the younger in fulfillment of the Lord's word? Jacob coveted his Esau's inheritance and through bribery took it from him. After this Jacob, along with his mother, through treachery deceived his father, Isaac, to receive Esau's blessing. Thus we see that through the craftiness of sinful deeds the prophecy concerning these two brothers was fulfilled. Curious, I know. The question then becomes: was this sin God's fore-ordained plan to fulfill His prophecy? Was it supposed to happen another way ... or rather, could it have happened another way? How else could the elder have served the younger? The younger could not have simply received the inheritance and blessing of the firstborn unless Esau had died -- wherefore the elder would not have lived to serve the younger. This is an interesting thing to consider.

However, back to the point. Here we see the sin of Pharoah hardening his heart against the Lord and the sin of Jacob, the supplanter, being ordered together by Paul to contextually explain this mystery he describes as "the Potter who has power over the clay" and "therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Is this chapter of [b]Romans 9[/b] truly as straight-forward as "Some are 'fitted to destruction,' while others are 'afore prepared to glory' "?

Personally it is my belief that God in His condescending mercy desires and seeks out to have a people for Himself, to be their God, and dwell and walk among them in Majesty -- which shall come to pass. And when God comes to establish Himself in the hearts of the sons of men, they are either broken and humbled by the Kindness and Holiness of God or repulsed by the Lord of Glory "heaping coals of fire on their heads" ([b]Romans 12:20[/b]). Thus it stands to reason that if God comes in mercy to redeem a vile sinner -- to take Israel for example: and the loving mercies and kindnesses of God, rather ironically (such is the folly of men), harden their hearts and turn them away to serve other gods then how can God who is love gather these people unto Himself -- what fellowship has Light with darkness?

Seriously, what would happen to us if God in His Holiness walked among us while we were yet without Christ and depraved in our sins? It is a humbling conclusion, it would have been instant Judgment and we would be turned into hell.

Therefore, He must give them over to do those things which are inconvenient that they may reap upon themselves destruction and there see their folly in departing from the Lord. Yet, even this without God's intention to cast them into hell, but as Paul admonished the church, for the destruction of their flesh, so likewise God turns us over to His "passive wrath" so that we might cry out to Him in our distress whereby His mercy is ever-present and ready to bring us back and set our feet upon the Rock. However, there is still set for each and every man once to die and then the judgment -- there are surely some that God Himself has and shall put to death in His fierce and burning anger. Indeed, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God -- whether He carries us heavenward or treads us under the weight of His omnipotence in that lake of fire.

Bog, I'm not sure if you understood, or I didn't explain my position, and the position of the reformed throughout history, on regeneration.

I mean by regeneration that event where God removes the heart of stone (Ezek 36:26-27) and the light of the gospel shines in and is beautiful to the soul (2nd Cor 4). The sinner then sees the glory of what he once hated and flees to Christ. The sequence of events will probably not be discernable to the one who is drawn.

I did not mean to present it as us taking the initiative in loving God.

Perhaps I'm not explaining this clearly, so please consult the Westminster Confession Chapter 10 on Effectual Calling for a description by men more articulate than myself.

Grace to you.

Bog, an excellent post my brother!

I hope people will read it, consider and be blessed by the fruit of your labor.

Brother Taylor, what you are calling regeneration, many would call conviction...conviction precedes regeneration. When a person is convicted they respond to God or reject Him. God giving the new heart is regeneration and the only way we can be saved. To God be the glory!

Rbanks,

Conviction is a work of God the Holy Spirit, as taught by our Lord in John 16.

No sinner would ever be convicted were it not for a sovereign work of the Spirit.

Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.

O Lord, vindicate thy name!

Grace to you.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Rbanks,

Conviction is a work of God the Holy Spirit, as taught by our Lord in John 16.

No sinner would ever be convicted were it not for a sovereign work of the Spirit.

Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.

O Lord, vindicate thy name!

Grace to you.

[Conviction is a work of God the Holy Spirit, as taught by our Lord in John 16.

No sinner would ever be convicted were it not for a sovereign work of the Spirit.]

This is true brother Taylor, conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit but it precedes regeneration.

Then you jump the gun and run wild with this!

[Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.]

Their is no merit achieved by man but man has been given responsibility to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force people to love Him. We love Him because he first loved us!

God does not take away our will and make us robots or a puppet on a string. He wants us to have a loving relationship with Him in all humility. Knowing that we deserved hell but by his grace and mercy He saved us from our sins, we are forever grateful.

rbanks,

This is true brother Taylor, conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit but it precedes regeneration.

So, we agree that this is a work of God, and is in no way contingent upon man's merit?

Their is no merit achieved by man but man has been given responsibility to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force people to love Him. We love Him because he first loved us!

So, men must accept this grace because they are either more spiritual, smarter, more humble, etc?

Friend, I never said anything about robots or puppets. You're right, God does not take away our will - [b]he changes them[/b]. He gives us new hearts (Ezek 36:26-27).

I believe TJservant has this quote in his signature: To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. - John Owen

I would suggest thinking long and hard about that quote, friends.

Think about our own situation, was it a sovereign work of God or not. If we were convicted by a sermon - who put it in our hearts to listen to such a sermon? If we were convicted by the Scripture - who put it in our hearts to read such a Book? The work is all of God.

This is so important to me, brothers, because we our talking about our Great God, who shares His glory with no man. I long to see His grace appreciated in all of its fullness and freeness. He showed grace simply out of the "good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1).

Grace to you.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

I believe TJservant has this quote in his signature: To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. - John Owen

I would suggest thinking long and hard about that quote, friends.

Think about our own situation, was it a sovereign work of God or not. If we were convicted by a sermon - who put it in our hearts to listen to such a sermon? If we were convicted by the Scripture - who put it in our hearts to read such a Book? The work is all of God.

Grace to you.

This is true because we do not have power of ourselves to do anything that is of God.

We must totally trust in God and his work of grace by the power of His Spirit. In Romans 4:16, he tells us that we have access to this grace through faith.

In heb. 11:6, He tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Brother Taylor I know that you are exalting God and giving Him all the glory for your salvation and I want you to know I am too!

The main problem is what we both don't quite understand is how to give Him all the glory.

I'm still learning, and I do want to give Him all the glory and that is why I believe I'm giving Him all the glory when I say that I believe He gives everybody the opportunity to be the whosoever that believeth. I am not going to accuse God of sending people to hell just because he didn't want to offer them grace. God is all powerful brother, if he can save some by his sovereign grace then he can save all, if man has been given no responsibility to respond.

Brother Taylor I know that you are exalting God and giving Him all the glory for your salvation and I want you to know I am too! The main problem is what we both don't quite understand is how to give Him all the glory. I'm still learning, and I do want to give Him all the glory and that is why I believe I'm giving Him all the glory when I say that I believe He gives everybody the opportunity to be the whosoever that believeth. I am not going to accuse God of sending people to hell just because he didn't want to offer them grace. God is all powerful brother, if he can save some by his sovereign grace then he can save all, if man has been given no responsibility to respond.

Thank you for your response. I believe we have both sufficiently stated our case for now - may the reader use sound judgment in determining what is of God - as revealed in His Scripture.

May God be pleased to guide us into all truth that accords with godliness.

Grace to you all.

hello brothers and sisters in the LORD! I have been blessed by sermon index but have never had the time to do posts. I can't help but speak up now though. I used to be an arminian but was convinced by Scripture of the doctrines of grace. I count my brothers and sisters in CHRIST who deny these doctrines dear fellow Labourers with me in the LORD but when some come out saying the doctrines of grace are heresy I get quite upset.

Heretics go to hell. Brother HmmHmm, I take your accusations as the writting off of many on sermon index, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, many other dear brothers, and myself as being consigned to hell as heretics. Please be a little more careful with the "H" word.

Brother Krispy and others, please do not comment on this post if you have'nt even seen the video. There are so many egregorious diatribes out there against the doctrines of grace and half the time when people rail on me it is because they think they know what these doctrines are after reading the greviuos misrepresentation and historical revisionist propaganda of the proud Dave HuntM

Brother Ricky posted this video to clear up some of the lies people believe about these doctrines. Please don't comment until you have watched the video.

I am thankful this has developed into a great thread, that we can talk over the Scriptures on such things in love. I just want to deeper know the things of God and the truths of His Holy Word.

What if we simply look at this in a simple way?

Firstly, who are the ones who are saved?

Rom 8:29 For [b]those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son[/b], in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And [b]those whom he predestined he also called[/b], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Notice that the "foreknown" are "predestined" for something; "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
Next notice that "those whom he predestined he also called". But it does not say He calls all men, but rather those whom He foreknew.

Now look at Paul's words in Ephesians

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us(Christians) in him [b]before the foundation of the world[/b], that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 [b]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,[/b]

There are many other passages, but for the sake of brevity I will stop here.

So those who believe in Christ were chosen before the foundation of the world, and are called "the elect".

If only "the elect" and no more will believe in Christ, is it not safe to say that God has chosen them, but not all?

Either way, God has indeed created people that will perish, but they will perish because they were not part of the elect who have faith in Christ and are being conformed into His image.

However we have no idea who or how many the elect are, and it would be best to proclaim the good news of Christ's person and work to all in hopes that some would be saved.

Thank you rbanks for your kind words. :-P

Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.

This is where we agree, TaylorOtwell.

It is God who has shown mercy, amen!

For He has first loved us!

I believe this is the distinction between us in this joy:

God does not take away our will - he changes them. He gives us new hearts (Ezek 36:26-27).

If you would like to understand what I have tried to explain and what many here believe concerning regeneration, it goes something like this:

How does God change our hearts?

Stephen, the evangelist martyr, declared boldly,

[b]Acts 7
51.[/b] "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

And this is important because YOU CANNOT resist a [b]passive force[/b]. The implication here is that the Holy Spirit was actively pursuing these men to convert them but they resisted Him. Hence, I seriously question the doctrine of "passive hardening." The condemnation of men is the LIGHT that has come into the world and NOT the darkness, which God in times past winked at.

Therefore, it is conceivable that God can actively work in reprobate's hearts, where He intends their salvation, but in the LIGHT of this intended salvation, this work of mercy and grace, becomes the very thing that seals their condemnation if they will not repent and seek the Living God.

This is the responsibility of man. As it is my conviction that the very Same Light and Love that leads some unto faith and repentance is the very Same Light and Love that shall utterly condemn the world for its unbelief. I just cannot rationalize a God who acts differently towards different men. So as to say, "this one I will actively work upon and this one I shall passively give over."

Think about this: the very concept gives rise to belief that Love is not able to save! For God's "common grace" -- what is that if not His Love? -- is upon every man. Is it then a "lesser" or "passive" love towards the reprobate?

Consider this, if they are resisting the Holy Spirit then God HAS ALREADY come to them, thus, it is absolutely true "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."

For you see, if the Holy Spirit is already come upon the hearts and minds of men then He comes with all the power of salvation with Him -- and the gospel is the power of God unto salvation! And there is nothing required of men but to stop resisting Him and let Him perfect His work in us, whereof the end is eternal life. However, if we continue to resist the Holy Spirit then our judgment is just and our condemnation made certain -- for He comes to bear witness of the Light, Christ Jesus; and whosoever does not believe the testimony of Him has not believed the gospel God has given unto men.

So you see, God is the First Cause in everything, salvation and regeneration being no different! There is no denying this great joy! He first loved us! He came unto His creatures and sent His Spirit and His prophets and His church and His Scripture so that we all might believe on Him! Thank you Jesus for giving to the Lord!

Indeed, as you have said, "this is all the work of God."

But it does not say He calls all men, but rather those whom He foreknew.

Look here at Paul's words in Acts:

[b]Acts 17
30.[/b] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

God has commanded all men every where to repent.

How does saying I use to be an Armenian or for all that matters...I used to be a Calvinist or now I am a Calvinist or Armenian relieve our responsibility to the lost or our responsibility to the grace of God.

In an earlier post it was mentioned that God only changed the hearts of some by his Sovereign grace. Well, why can't you explain the other one's who you say didn't get the grace of regeneration without blaming God?

I thing some just want to be relieved of their responsibility before God. They talk so much about defending God's grace, but that can also be used as a cop out.(not accusing anyone but could be)

Sounds to me like the same thing Adam did in the garden when he blamed God by saying "the woman that you gave me".

Can't you see this is the same when you say well God is going to save only certain one's and not save certain one's no matter about the responsibility of man. I don't need to have a burden for the lost because it has already been decided and it is God's fault that people are going to hell. It's not my responsibility to pray and witness. It's not man's responsibility to respond to the grace of God because man doesn’t have anything to do with it. (Not accusing anyone on this thread but can be interpreted this way)

Calvinist do a somewhat wonderful job of magnifying the grace of God but a pitiful job when it comes to the many scriptures that deal with the responsibility God has given to all men. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Jesus said except we repent we are all going to perish.(He didn't say unless you were already elected)

The truth of the matter is that God's grace is truly amazing and no one can explain it but that is not our part. Grace is God's part but God has given us a part in trusting and surrendering to that grace. We have a responsibility to believe, pray and obey with the Spirit of his grace. When God's grace touches your life and you believe and receive salvation you will be so thankful. You will give him all the glory and you will know that you had nothing to do with it because if God hadn't given you the ability you couldn't have received nor done anything.

Would you please expound further upon this statement:

"I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit..."

Also,why do you end your post thus:

"Oh, dear, here we go...."

I just wanted to inject some additional thoughts here.

I believe that most who call themselves "Calvinist", perhaps even Spurgeon himself, would deny Calvin's teachings and call him a "hyper-calvinist".

It is my understanding, from Calvin's Institutes, that Calvin was a firm supralapsarian, double-predestinarian. God decreed the Fall, and creates the majority of mankind for the purpose of showing his power in destroying them, and his utter mercy to create others and save them. Calvin taught nothing of "passive" wrath, or leaving men to their own destruction, because they are sinners. But rather, that God from all eternity determined all men to be sinners destined for hell.

To account for the passages regarding God commanding all men everywhere to repent and other "non-Augustinian" passages, Calvin said there was a difference between God's true will and purpose, and His commands to men. So he commands that they not sin, but actually "wills" or decrees that they do.

It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power [b]in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".

TaylorOtwell wrote:
It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power [b]in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".

This is so true brother Taylor! Without God we can not but without us he will not.

Here is how predestination works.

All who are in Christ by grace through faith are predestinated to eternal life.

All who are outside of Christ by their unbelief are predestinated to eternal damnation.

Every person who has reached the age of accountability before they were born of God was at one time predestinated to eternal damnation.

Predestination to eternal life is only in Christ to the one who has turned from himself to Christ in faith believing.

The unbeliever is blinded by Satan and can not see the glad tidings of salvation.

When a person responds to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and puts his faith in Christ and the mercy of God is shown to the person then God will also give that person the powerful working of regeneration.

What God commands, he also gives the power to do, to the believer.

God predestines according to His foreknowledge. He is the only one who knows who will believe and who will not from the beginning.

He has foreordained everyone in Christ to eternal life, because they believed in His Son and his finished work of redemption.

Rbanks, please receive my words with an understanding that I write in a spirit of benevolence, and not insolent argument.

The sort of determination you describe is not Divine Predestination at all, though you may use such language. Rather, it is a kind of heavenly reaction, God's merciful ratification of the foreknown, self-sovereign determination of persons to believe on Christ for salvation. Such belief supposes that from eternity God merely stamps His approval on the foreseen intentions of those who ultimately commit their hearts to Christ. And this decision to place faith in Jesus springs decidedly from an energy native to their own natural being, or else God would be partial and unjust for granting them more than another.

Have I misrepresented your views? I do not think I have been too unfair. Yet even a common dictionary declares this to be a wayward definition of predestination, nor is it classical usage of the term elsewhere.

Webster's 1828 states,

"PREDESTINA'TION, n. The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass. It is used particularly in theology to denote the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

Predestination is an active verb; it is an act. The supposed ratification of which you speak is passive, reactionary. It responds to the work of man. Divine Predestination, by contrast, is unalterably the work of Sovereign God on passive man. I will demonstrate this below. But first,

You wrote, "He has foreordained everyone in Christ to eternal life, because they believed in His Son and his finished work of redemption."

Your application of the word "because" makes the previous statement abhorrent, though I can trust you are saved differently than your writing would indicate. A Gospel which saved because we fulfilled the command to "repent and believe" (Acts 17) is not the Gospel which Ephesians, or the whole counsel of God preaches. You mix the means of salvation for the basis of of it, and pour water on the roots of the Galatian heresy.

Hear the words of inspired Paul,

"For you are saved by grace, through faith, not of yourselves but the gift of God."

We are not saved [i]because[/i] of faith, but [i]through[/i] faith, which comes as a result of being "quickened, who were uterly dead in trespasses and sins. He does this in His elect because of a real atonement made by Christ for all who were predestined by God to adoption from before the foundation of the world. Though the means and conditions of salvation are proclaimed freely, yet all willfully reject it except the few chosen. These only receive the regeneration necessary to alter their nature, thereby freeing their will from bondage to dominating sin.

You may cringe at such a statement, but the fact is everywhere evident. The harmony of will and nature is plain to anyone who looks. Consider now that nearly everyone who has heated water chooses to have hot showers rather than cold ones. The fact that they always choose hot is not because they have no will by which to choose cold; people simply choose their preference, and never will for what they expect to give less satisfaction. Every decision a person makes is for their greatest satisfaction, even if their ability to judge what will satisfy is greatly impaired. Intoxicated men have strong wills but weak judgments. Alcohol does not take their will, it perverts it. So does sin. As well, a man who ordinarily hates lying will eagerly tell one to save his friend's life. Such a man desires the greater satisfaction of preserving his loved one than of preserving his character, and so wills against his usual inclination. We see undeniably that the will is captive to ones ability to judge what will best satisfy his desires.

This brings us to the great problem, that mankind is born with a sinful nature which will always motivate him, at last, to choose self and sin over God. At the very best, men depart like the rich young ruler. Though one sees something of the value of Christ and the gospel, yet he does not desire more to be free of sin and the works of the law. "None cometh unto Me," said Christ, "accept Him whom the Father draws, and ALL of these I shall raise up on that day." The battle for souls is secure in a conquering King, who liberates souls victoriously.

The God who elects some willful sinners to salvation by regeneration unto faith, has also passed over others. He has chosen instead to make some sinners examples of His justice and wrath, per Romans 9.

"What (is your complaint) if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (as it were, by the hands of a Potter God) :
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the [b]vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared[/b] unto glory, Even [b] us, whom he hath called[/b], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

In conclusion, the predestination of some to hell for their willful sin is just. The predestination of others by grace unto salvation through faith which comes by regeneration, is gracious.

Brother, I leave you with John Gill's exposition of Ephesians 2:1. May God save you from this error, though I may have reasonable confidence He has already saved your soul.

Men in an unregenerate state, being represented in these passages as dead in sin, shows, that whilst they are in such a state, they are as incapable of spiritual motion or action, or of quickening themselves, as a dead man is of natural motion, or action, or of raising himself from the dead. Whence it must needs follow, that the work of conversion is a work of God, and not man, and to be ascribed to the exceeding greatness of his power; in which man is passive as a dead body is in its resurrection from the dead. In answer to which,

1st. It is said,[1] "that the metaphor of being dead in trespasses and sins, cannot warrant our saying anything of unregenerate persons, which may properly be affirmed of the dead;" for,

1. "A dead body is void of all sense; whereas the unregenerate man is often under strong convictions, and a deep sense of his present misery." To which I reply, that it is one thing for a man to be under strong convictions, and a deep sense of his present misery, or of the evil and mischief which comes by sin, which sense is purely natural; and another thing to be under real convictions, and a deep sense of the true evil and wickedness that is in sin, which is purely spiritual, and arises from the quickening influences of the Spirit of God.

2. A dead man cannot awake himself out of the sleep of death; but God saith to the spiritually dead man, Awake, thou that sleepest, arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee life, it should have been light (Eph. 5:14). I reply, that these words are not spoken to the spiritually dead, but to professors of religion, as abundantly appears from the context; who were fallen into a drowsy, sleepy frame, which was very much owing to their conversation with dead sinners: wherefore the Apostle exhorts them, to rouse themselves from this lethargy, and arise, and depart from their dead companions, and unfruitful works of darkness, when they might expect more light and liveliness in their souls from Christ.

3. "A dead man cannot hear: but to the spiritually dead, God saith, Hear, and you souls shall live (Isa. 55:8)." To which may be replied, that there is a twofold hearing of the word; an external one, which regards the outward ministry of it, and an internal one, so as to understand it; the former, men spiritually dead may be capable of, but not of the latter; (see John 8:43, 47). Besides the persons spoken to in the passage of Scripture cited, were not spiritually dead, but were such as were quickened, who had a principle of spiritual life implanted in them. In consequence of which, they thirsted after spiritual things, verse 1, though greatly distressed under a sense of their spiritual poverty. Wherefore, the Lord encourages them to hearken to him, and listen to his covenant, grace and promises, that they might live comfortably.

4. "It would be absurd to exhort a dead body to turn about and live; whereas God thinks it not incongruous to say to persons spiritually dead, Turn yourselves, and ye shall live" (Ezek. 18:32; 33:11). I reply, that the passages referred to, do not regard such who were spiritually dead; since they concern the whole house of Israel, and every one of them: of whom it cannot be said, that they were dead in trespasses and sins: nor do the exhortations relate to the first work of conversion, but to an external reformation of them as a body politic, that they might peaceably live in their own land, and comfortably enjoy the good things of it.

5. "Good Christians are said to be dead to sin (Rom. 6:2, 11); to the law (Gal. 2:19), and to the world (Gal. 6:14)." Now if hence we cannot truly argue, that they cannot sin at all, that they can do nothing relating to the world, or to the law; neither can we argue from the metaphor of being dead in trespasses and sins, that we can do nothing in obedience to the calls of God, or compliance with the motions of his word and Spirit. To which I reply, that the meaning of the phrases in the passages mentioned is, that believers are freed from the damning power of sin, and from the curse and condemnation of the law, and are delivered from this present evil world. Now, whereas we can truly argue from hence, that believers are so dead to sin, the law, and the world, and these to them, as that they cannot condemn, damn, or destroy them; so we can truly argue from the metaphor, of being dead in trespasses and sins, that men can do nothing spiritually good, until God powerfully calls them by his grace, and they feel the quickening influences and motions of his Spirit.

2ndly In answer to the argument from these Scriptures, it is observed,[2] that "both the places cited concern only the Gentile world; and so we cannot argue from those words, which do so certainly relate to the worst of Heathens, that this must be the natural state of all men: or, that the same power is requisite to convert the unregenerate Christian, and the worst of Heathens." I reply, that these persons spoken of were Heathens, is readily granted; but that they were the worst of Heathens is not so manifest, though, probably, they were as bad as any. However, I cannot but take notice of the unregenerate Christian, as a mere paradox, a contradiction in terms; since no man can be truly a Christian but he that is regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. But, passing these things, let it be observed, that the same character of being dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is given to unregenerate Jews, which is here given to the unconverted Gentiles (Matthew 8:22; John 5:25). For that they were Jews, and not Gentiles, our Lord speaks to and of in the places referred to, is evident from this consideration, that as yet the Gospel was not sent to the Gentiles; nor were there any among them as yet who heard his voice or followed him. Nothing is more a certain and true than this, that he, or she, that liveth in pleasure, whether Jew or Gentile, are dead while they live. Besides, the a apostle says the very same things, in the same words, of himself, who was a Jew, and a devout one, and of others, while unconverted, as he does of these worst of Heathens (Eph. 2:4, 5). So that we may truly argue, and safely conclude, that this must be the natural state of all men; and that the same power is requisite to convert an unregenerate Jew, yea, an unregenerate man living where Christianity is professed, and the worst of Heathens; since the same characters belong to them.

Theopenlife, the bottom line is this and it comes down to those who believe and those who don’t believe. God is the one who tells man to repent and believe. God is the one who saves men who repent and believe.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God cannot lie and has given the promise to those who believe.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

No argument intended, but many don’t understand Rom 9 and I believe you are one of them. The bible plainly says “to him that believes” God gives them the promise of eternal life. If God does what you say in your understanding of Rom. 9 then explain the determining factor in His selection of those who become fortunate to be the elect. I will believe the scriptures:

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The scripture is also clear that one is not even sealed with the Holy Spirit until after they believe:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Brother Rbanks,

I think Michael (theopenlife), and anyone who believes in sovereign grace, would agree with everything you just said. However, we hold the conviction that the Bible teaches that no man can believe unless he is enabled by the Spirit of God, which I believe is why Michael posted John Gill's exposition of Ephesians 2:1 in his post.

LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: [b]for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.[/b] (Isaiah 26:12)

It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the [b]power in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".

You have made a misconception in your statement here.

"just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power" -- "to keep the command."

You have wrongly assumed we might say "in and of themselves" that is humanism [Edit: actually I should say it is satanism, after all it is humanism with rituals). We say, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Therefore to restate your comment, if I may:

"just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power" -- without God -- "to keep the command."

Or, in other words, because God commands something He Himself is the power by which we obey and keep the command.

TaylorOtwell wrote:

we hold the conviction that the Bible teaches that no man can believe unless he is enabled by the Spirit of God.

God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

How do you defend this?

It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power in and of themselves to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".

Quote:
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. (Isaiah 26:12)

Is faith a work? I think Paul would argue with you on that one.

Is faith a work? I think Paul would argue with you on that one.

Excellent question.

Every decision a person makes is for their greatest satisfaction, even if their ability to judge what will satisfy is greatly impaired. Intoxicated men have strong wills but weak judgments. Alcohol does not take their will, it perverts it. So does sin. As well, a man who ordinarily hates lying will eagerly tell one to save his friend's life. Such a man desires the greater satisfaction of preserving his loved one than of preserving his character, and so wills against his usual inclination. We see undeniably that the will is captive to ones ability to judge what will best satisfy his desires.

I find it fascinating how you have gone through all this explaining how people can will against their inclinations and then jump to the conclusion ...

This brings us to the great problem, that mankind is born with a sinful nature which will always motivate him, at last, to choose self and sin over God.

[b]Romans 7
18.[/b] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: [b]for to will is present with me[/b]; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
...
[b]21.[/b] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[b]22.[/b] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[b]23.[/b] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[b]24.[/b] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[b]25.[/b] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul seems to say otherwise than you have concluded, that the willing to obey God is not the problem but the power to obey in himself is sin -- thus, would not Paul's argument rather agree with our statements?

I had to commant on this, it realy burns my ....

anonimous wrote:
I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit....I don't really care how one says it. According to Romans 9: some INDIVIDUALS are "fitted to destruction", while other INDIVIDUALS are "afore prepared to glory".

God reforms the clay (Israel) because of their disobedience. Therefore, God does it out of judgment, so it is with all vessels of dishonor/wrath. God only reforms vessels into ones for dishonor/wrath only for the reason of judgment, never from the start or original purpose.

God does not create people to be born as vessels of dishonor/wrath, to do so would be corupt.

It would be non-sense to do so.
Example:
Gods will for a person is for them to end up in hell, because god wants a vessel of dishonor/wrath (not out of judgment), he did not elect him.
Therefore, this "doomed" soul would be doing god's will by sinning and never repenting, ending up in hell.
This doomed soul would be in hell by fulfilling his purpose which is god's will.
All this is with the fact that when people who do God's will and fulfill the purpose of their existence go to heaven; because sin is against God's will and those who rebel against their purpose of being created are d@mned.
Do you see that creating people to born as vessels of dishonor/wrath does not make sense?

Tell me how you think could an all loving, infinitely merciful God willingly create people to be born vessels of dishonor/wrath?

Do you know that the term "fitted" means reformed?

Really? I actually wasn't aware of that.

[b][u]"fitted" (Strong's 2674)[/b][/u]
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
--a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1) to complete
--b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
--c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

I have already explained another view of [b]Romans 9[/b] on a previous page of this thread (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25776&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1), so I am not going to restate it all again. [b]Romans 9[/b] does not necessitate that God is the One who has Sovereignly condemned people to eternal hell because He did not choose to regenerate them.

Logic, you criminalize God for supposing that He is responsible for mankind's original sin. Furthermore, you make yourself a hypocrite by stating that God is corrupt for expecting of men what they are not capable to do. Do you not expect drunkards to refrain from driving under the influence, and will uphold the punishments of those who do, though alcohol incapacitated their ability to make wise judgments? Do you not expect a man to control himself even when infuriated to the point of madness? Of course you do. Even so, the sin which mankind participates in by nature, from conception, perverts our judgment and directs us to freely reject every offer of the gospel until divinely sobered by regeneration. Man's inability is moral, not physical, and therefore he is accountable for his unwillingness. Unregenerate men are like Joseph's brothers, who "could not speak kindly to him," for the hate in their hearts.

Parents know that they cannot make children willingly eat foods they do not like. A parent may command, coerce, or cajole, but if it seems undesirable the child will not choose it. Thankfully, God has provided a remedy. Over time our tastes change, and this change is biological. We find that things once bitter to the mouth are strangely satisfying.

Likewise, mankind by nature hates the light and does not come to it. Hear John, "Light came into the world, but they did not come to the Light lest their deeds be exposed, " and "Men loved darkness rather than light." Are you a man? Then you would not come to the light, lest your deeds be exposed. Are you a man? Than you loved darkness rather than light. Are you a man? Than you were by nature dead in trespasses and sins, unable to stir a limb until God quickened you by grace unto faith for salvation. Perhaps you are more than a man, but worms ate a certain Herod who accepted such flattery.

This is not about heady argument. The question is whether God saves, or merely makes a way to save oneself. The question is whether the glory is His, and whether I can pray to God, "Save such and such, and according to your will let it be done." The question is, does God receive all praise, and is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, which is a gift of God.

The question is whether God saves, or merely makes a way to save oneself.

The question is, does God receive all praise, and is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, which is a gift of God.

Yes God deserves all the praise!!!

(FYI, I'm not saying that faith isn't a gift, but Eph 2:9 says that salvation is the gift, not faith)

theopenlife wrote:
Logic, you criminalize God for...ect...

You must also think that God will not enable some to believe and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.

Please explain this.

This is the same for [b]if[/b] repentance is a gift.

I will get to the rest of your post soon.

Personally im not in either camp - that is im not in either ( mr calvins camp or in the arminians camp ) Nor am i some sort of cross breed or half-baked in the middle breed - with a foot in each camp or either party breed. A lot of these things are factious by nature anyhow. And tend that way.

But i would like to add - and was meditating upon this very selfsame THING only last night ...that the stream of truth ( that is to say pure and unadulterated truth ) often lies in the middle of the 2 extremes! Now That it is a poignant point and can even be backed-up in scripture.

Now I believe the scripture says (if im not wrong) that "divers weights and balances - both of them are AN ABOMOINATION TO THE LORD"

And furthermore think on this: There were 2 camps in Christ's day! And none of them - incidently recieved Christ's blessing or his approval...and they were (pharisee camp) and (sadducee camp) But both were censured by Christ: Saying this: Take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and the sadducees! Now Both were preemeinent in Christ day! Yet neither walked in or possessed absolute truth! Both had issues doctrinally SPEAKING! For example when paul percieved in the council that the one PART were pharisee and the other PART SADDUCEE ...he cried out in the council!

For the pharisees say their is NO resurrection, neither angel nor spirit: but the pharisees confessed both. And as one former preacher Boy said the saduccees were certainly aptly named (sad)duccee! So clearly there were two streams of truth and two pre-eminnent camps present. But none were ultimately blessed or approved by Christ. ( both ultimately lost their "power base" with the power base "rightly shifting" to Christ and his to his apostles) hmmm. Which is why the Sadducees and the high priest often resorted to threats and to beatings of the disciples - as they sensed their power base was about to slip away from them! As the majority of Jews up until that time - had stayed with them! But a power shift came and a paradigm change - swept by them!
( another subject for another day - no doubt )

So The addage that Truth often lies somewhere in between is a true statement - and ive often taken what mainstream pentecostals teach and what apolagetics say and what all heresy hunters say...and then go away and think on the matter, and compared notes, weigh things up, and compare spiritual things with spiritual things! And This way i am submitting everything back to God and to his word of truth ( and truly berean like ) - This then serves to protect and to preserve from EVERY wind of DOCTRINE out there in christendom and in religious wonderland!

You criminalise God by this theory. God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for. How do you defend this?

Logic, I respond the same way the holy Apostle Paul did.

[b]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”[/b] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19-20)

Friend, do you realize that Paul is answering the very question you just asked me?

Secondly, what I said about nobody being able to believe unless they are enabled by God is simply the truth Jesus spoke in John 6:65.

You must also think that God will not enable some to believe and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.

No, friend, they are responsible for their multitudes of sins against the living God, none of which God forced them to do. We all deserve hell. Really understanding that would help much in this discussion. All of us, including everyone in this thread deserves infinite hell. It is no injustice if God chooses to save some, when it is just for Him to save none.

Grace to you,
Taylor

My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism

One man who was a proven false prophet - once ran out of steam and things to write and say in forum discussions having not posted anything of substance for a long time...

So you know what he did?

He tried to kick start the old calvinistic debate by throwing out a one line sentence - TO THE FORUM OF " what do you think OF the calvinistic debate AND WHERE DO YA ALL STAND ON THIS?" ETC ETC

YAWN ! Ive personally never entered into the debate and have no desire too...these things paul warned will increase unto more ungodliness and even perverse disputings! My advice avoid like the plague....my advice run for your life and get right away from fruitless arguments

TaylorOtwell wrote:

You criminalise God by this theory. God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for. How do you defend this?

Logic, I respond the same way the holy Apostle Paul did.

[b]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”[/b] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19-20)

Friend, do you realize that Paul is answering the very question you just asked me?

[b]Rom 9:19[/b] [color=990000]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his intention?[/color]
For who has resisted God's intention?

Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use us the hardeness of pharaoh's heart, who can resist His intention?
However, Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.

[b]Rom 9:20[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/color]
Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that.

God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways & you took the offer, so God used that instead for HIS purpose.
So, quite your belly aikin' and do what you're supposed to do, REPENT
-------------------------------------------------
Paul would never leave an important question that needs to be answered open like that.

What you think Paul was saing in those verses is equivelent to saying:
"God is God and He can do anything He wants, even things that are unjustifiable. You have no right to ask God such things."

You therefore must explain how this unjustice by God is done.
How do you defend this?
God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

Another thing that must be explained is:
IF Faith is a gift, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of the world.

God does not cover up inconsistencies, we must not either.

Thank you for responding.

It seems your interpretation of the verses may not take into account v.21, which states that it is the potter who made the clay either for honor or dishonor, yet, you seem to imply that the clay made the clay for honor or dishonor.

Grace to you.

sonofthunder wrote:
My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism

One man who was a proven false prophet - once ran out of steam and things to write and say in forum discussions having not posted anything of substance for a long time...

So you know what he did?

He tried to kick start the old calvinistic debate by throwing out a one line sentence - TO THE FORUM OF " what do you think OF the calvinistic debate AND WHERE DO YA ALL STAND ON THIS?" ETC ETC

YAWN ! Ive personally never entered into the debate and have no desire too...these things paul warned will increase unto more ungodliness and even perverse disputings! My advice avoid like the plague....my advice run for your life and get right away from fruitless arguments

I am not trying to make factions, they already exist.
I am only intrested in how the people who hold these theories defend them, how do they explain the inconsistencies of their theology.
How they justify the injustices which their theology puts on God.
I want to show people the logical conclusion to there theology.

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Thank you for responding.

It seems your interpretation of the verses may not take into account v.21, which states that it is the potter who made the clay either for honor or dishonor, yet, you seem to imply that the clay made the clay for honor or dishonor.

Grace to you.

The answer is; you made yourself like that.

Is that you are the one who sinned and responcible for your judgment.
Your judgment is that I(God) will now make you a vessle of wrath.

[b]21:[/b] [color=990000]Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?[/color] Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specifically for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but uses the same & makes a new vessel out of it.
The Potter did not mar the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.
Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
See notes on next verse for proof of this.

[b]22:[/b] [color=990000]But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction[/color]
Fitted to destruction:
Reformed from a vessel of honor to be a vessel of dishonor.
See notes on Romans 9:21
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Ephesians 2:3
God loves all His creation even those who hate him, that is why God endured in much long-suffering with them. 1Corinth 13:7, "charity (love) bears all things (is patient)

[b]23:[/b] [color=990000]and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,[/color]
What if by showing such longsuffering even to "the vessels of wrath," by contrast to them, God shows abundantly the greatness of his glorious goodness, wisdom, and power on the vessels of mercy; on those whom he had himself, by his grace, prepared for glory. Is this any injustice?

Quote, "I am only intrested in how the people who hold these theories defend them, how do they explain the inconsistencies of their theology."

Logic, with that I can agree!

Son of Thunder wrote,

"My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism."

The pursuit of truth will always cause disagreements, but it is sin, not discussion itself, which nurtures factions. It is good to dispute, provided we do so under the moderation of love at all times. Whatsoever we do, including "contending for the faith" (as we understand it), is to be done unto the Lord.

As for "truth lies between two extremes" I respond that so-called Calvinism falls perfectly between atheism and animistic fatalism.

Hyper-Calvinism, by the way, is not Supralapsarianism or "double-predestination". It is the denial that the gospel can or should be offered to those who do not show signs of being amongst the elect. It is also frequently associated with a denial of the use of means in bringing people to salvation. Anyone who has read the Institutes has seen candidly that Calvin was not "Hyper-Calvinist".

Can't we all just admit that there is a group of people in Scripture called "the elect"?

These people were foreknown by God-
Rom 8:29 For [b]those whom he foreknew[/b] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Now pay close attention to the language used here. It does not say, "that which He foreknew", as to indicate that God saw a future faith in them and elected them because of that faith.

Rather it says, "those whom He foreknew" to show that there were people whom God foreknew or knew before.

Now these people were "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ". But it is only these people, and they will be called, and they will be justified, and they will be glorified.

There's no way around that.

As for Romans 9 and its mentioning of vessels, Paul makes a very distinct point towards the end of the chapter about who the vessels are-
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience [b]vessels of wrath prepared for destruction[/b],
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for [b]vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory[/b]--

Now pay attention to the next verse as it shows that these are not "nations" being talked about, but instead "people".

Rom 9:24 even [b]us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?[/b]

Clearly, the "vessels of mercy" are "called" from all people.

This mentioning of "vessels" in 2 Timothy actually shows this thought as well.

In 2 Timothy, the word "vessels" is used here-
2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

But this discussion is about false teachers(Hymenaeus and Philetus v.17): those who have "swerved from the truth" and are upsetting the "faith of some".

Paul then tells young Timothy, " But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2Ti 2:19, and then begins to show that there are differing vessels in a large house, which is similar to the Lord's words about wheat and tares growing together.

The point here is that there will be false teachers who are vessels of dishonor among the Church.

Hopefully we can look at context in this discussion and let our minds be governed by Scripture and not emotion.

The pursuit of truth will always cause disagreements, but it is sin, not discussion itself, which nurtures factions. It is good to dispute, provided we do so under the moderation of love at all times. Whatsoever we do, including "contending for the faith" (as we understand it), is to be done unto the Lord.

Indeed, brother. The truth is too important to keep our hands off of it like sonofthunder is suggesting. So long as there are discussions among the brethren truth shall be found (those who seek the Lord do not seek Him in vain), however, when the discussions cease truth shall lie fallen in the streets.

We all deserve hell. Really understanding that would help much in this discussion. All of us, including everyone in this thread deserves infinite hell. It is no injustice if God chooses to save some, when it is just for Him to save none.

No one here disagrees with you. This is not a debate concerning whether we deserve hell or not. I would recommend you gentlemen to please go back on this thread and read my post concerning [b]Romans 9[/b] (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25776&forum=36&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=1). If you are wondering which post it is; it is the one that takes up half the page. :-P

By the way, speaking of [b]Romans 9:21[/b], that verse also directly refutes "passive hardening" because "the Potter has power over the clay" and He is actively "fitting them to destruction." I was reading in my Strong's Concordance and it had this commentary concerning the word "fitted": "It indicates the close relationship between character and destiny, Rom 9:22, 'fitted', where the middle voice signifies that those referred to 'fitted' themselves for destruction, as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh, who self-hardened his own heart." (There you have it, its in the Strong's! I am kidding!)

[b]Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?[/b] Please, explain to us the context, as I explained in that previous post, the sin of Pharoah hardening his heart against the Lord and the sin of Jacob, the supplanter, being ordered together by Paul to contextually explain this mystery he describes as "the Potter who has power over the clay" and "therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

boG,

I am going to bed, but here is the most simple way to explain the question you posed:

1.) The bible says God is neither the author of sins, nor is he tempted to sin. He is perfectly righteous, not merely because he says so, but because he truly is.

2.) The bible says God actively hardened Pharaoh and other sinners hearts in some way, bringing them to more fully offend Him. He ORDAINED the death of Christ at the hand of murderers, and it was brought to pass in a very specific way, not simply by an accident God foresaw.

Therefore:

Whether we understand it or not, God is somehow capable of bringing about sins without being in ANY way guilty or approving of sin.

So, in conclusion, I have not offered a positive answer, but I have given the reasoning that underlies my confidence of there being one.

Romans 8:28-39.--Therefore we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose. We can rest in God and commit all to Him. The purpose of God for His own, from eternity to eternity is blessedly revealed. "From God's foreknowledge of us in the past eternity to the accomplished glory of the future, there is a perfectly linked chain of blessing, no link of which can ever be sundered. God's purpose is that Christ His Son, should be a First-born among many brethren" (Numerical Bible). And the chain of blessing is--foreknown -- predestinated -- called -- justified and glorified. We do not enter into the controversies of the past concerning predestination, but repudiate that unscriptural conception that God has predestinated a part of the human race to be lost. This is incorrect in view of the statement of Scripture that God "will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Ti 2:4). But all are not saved because they believe not. (Foreknowledge expresses the original operation of the Divine mind, considered with reference to the pure and unapproachable majesty of the blessed and only Potentate. Predestination respects rather the condition of that which is thus foreknown, objectively regarded as a vessel of His will."--Pridham.) God knows all who would believe and these are predestinated, called, justified and Will be ultimately glorified. And His eternal purpose will not fail and all who are in Christ will be conformed to the image of His Son. This is the Hope of God's calling (Eph 1:18).
--Gaebelein's Annoted Bible

This understanding does not violate the Word of God taken in the context of it's author the Holy Spirit. I had rather stand before God in the judgment with this understanding believing that everybody I witness to, can be saved. Than to stand before God believing that he was not willing to save some of His creation.

The bible says God actively hardened Pharaoh and other sinners hearts in some way [...] Whether we understand it or not, God is somehow capable of bringing about sins without being in ANY way guilty or approving of sin.

The bible doesn't say God "actively hardened" Pharaoh's and other sinner's hearts. It does say He "hardened" his heart but it likewise says Pharaoh sinned against the Lord and hardened his own heart.

Are you aware that debunking this very thing, "Equal Ultimacy," was the beginning purpose of this thread? This is interesting, now I am very curious. Please, explain the context of [b]Romans 9[/b], as I asked earlier, and please explain how what you are saying is either not "Equal Ultimacy" or why "Equal Ultimacy" is not erroneous heresy (as the video from the first post said).

boG asks, "Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?"

David says,"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is set on high; I am not able to reach it."(Psalm 139:6,In its context it is applicable)

I believe from the Word of God that that God of the Word is The Absolute Sovereign,and that that Truth is by revelation of the God of Truth.

"No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matt. 11:27).

"And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven." (Matt.16:17)

"For He spoke, and it came into being; He commanded, and it stood fast. Jehovah voids the counsel of the nations, He frustrates the thoughts of the peoples. Jehovah's counsel stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah, the people He has elected for His inheritance. Jehovah looks down from Heaven; He sees all the sons of mankind. From His dwellingplace He looks on all the ones living in the earth. He forms the heart; He understands all their works." (Psalm 33:9-15)

"And the prophet, if he is deceived, and he speaks a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet. And I will stretch out My hand on him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel." (Ezek. 14:9)

"And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, and he shall go up and fall in Ramoth-gilead? And this one said this, and this one said that. And a spirit came forth and stood before Jehovah, and said, I surely will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and shall be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him, and also you are able. Go out and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and Jehovah has spoken evil as to you!"
(1 Kings 22:20-23)

"If a ram's horn is blowing in a city, will the people not also tremble? If there is a calamity in a city, has Jehovah not even done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"For My servant Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.(Isa. 45:4-7)

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"(Lam. 3:38)

"O LORD, why do you make us err from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?" (Isa. 63:17).

Contrariwise,mere human reason and logic("knowledge so-called")are philosophy,and man by nature is philosophical and obsessed therewith.

This philosophical creature(man)would make God like unto himself, a learner and a reactor, rather than worship Him as Creator,Sustainer,and Governor.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination is not election to heaven or hell.

Predestination is that those that are elect be in Christ.

All mankind have made their choice to hell, there not one that seeks God, no not one.

But God wants sons' out of His Creation and He chooses those that He pleases to give to the Son, with no respect of persons, that they might be son's of God who trusted in Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit. God's elect, those whom the Father gives to Jesus Christ for salvation, predestinated to be In Christ before the foundation of the World. God never ment for any person to be outside of The Christ in those God elected to be the Son's inheritance for His obedience.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

How are we glorified? What is our glory? Who is our glory? It is only One Person, Jesus Christ who is born again in the believer and elect of God.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the election working in us mightily.

No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began.

This is exactly what scripture says;

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

In Christ, elect of God, chosen and predestinated to be conformed to the Image of The Son Jesus Christ Himself in us, who is our only Glory.

Phillip

Phillip ans Savannah, thank you, both of those posts were clear.

I would only comment on the sentence,

"No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began."

Only in the sense that some are "passed over", that is, not included in the elect by virtue of God's sovereign choice not to demonstrate regenerating grace on them, is it true that there is what some call "double predestination". In other words, because God has not determined to bring them, in Christ, to faith, they were from before time marked out for one thing - to willfully rebel and receive such wages as are fitting.

O, praise God that we should be spared!

"Amazing Grace"

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

John New­ton, Ol­ney Hymns (Lon­don: W. Ol­i­ver, 1779)

roaringlamb wrote:
Can't we all just admit that there is a group of people in Scripture called "the elect"?

And personal election is is unto eternal life.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Now pay close attention to the language used here. It does not say, "that which He foreknew", as to indicate that God saw a future faith in them and elected them because of that faith.

Rather it says, "those whom He foreknew" to show that there were people whom God foreknew or knew before.

If not, what was that foreknowdge?
Was it knowing beforehand what he would do?
Or knowing beforehand whom He would choose?

Now these people were "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ". But it is only these people, and they will be called, and they will be justified, and they will be glorified.

If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He choses which are as equal as those He does not choose.

Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

Clearly, the "vessels of mercy" are "called" from all people.

This mentioning of "vessels" in 2 Timothy actually shows this thought as well.

In 2 Timothy, the word "vessels" is used here-

2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

But this discussion is about false teachers(Hymenaeus and Philetus v.17): those who have "swerved from the truth" and are upsetting the "faith of some".

Paul then tells young Timothy, " But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2Ti 2:19, and then begins to show that there are differing vessels in a large house, which is similar to the Lord's words about wheat and tares growing together.

The point here is that there will be false teachers who are vessels of dishonor among the Church.

I found these links below on SI to be helpful which address this subject to some degree:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=23460&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24282&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go

Many of the same questions on this thread are given some very insightfully biblical answers.

The gainsayers are refuted as the scriptures command ought to be done.

theopenlife wrote:

"No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began."

Only in the sense that some are "passed over", that is, not included in the elect by virtue of God's sovereign choice not to demonstrate regenerating grace on them, is it true that there is what some call "double predestination". In other words, because God has not determined to bring them, in Christ, to faith, they were from before time marked out for one thing - to willfully rebel and receive such wages as are fitting.

However, you think that makes them unable.
Unwillingness is not inability.
Whch is it, unwillingness or inability?

Don't say that the unwillingness makes the inability, because one may be persuaded if unwilling, but one cannot ve persuaded from an inability.

Christinyou wrote:

All mankind have made their choice to hell, there not one that seeks God, no not one.

But God wants sons' out of His Creation and He chooses those that He pleases to give to the Son, with no respect of persons,

If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose.

Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

How are we glorified? What is our glory? Who is our glory? It is only One Person, Jesus Christ who is born again in the believer and elect of God.
This is the election working in us mightily.

savannah wrote:
boG asks, "Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?"

"And the prophet, if he is deceived, and he speaks a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet. And I will stretch out My hand on him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel." (Ezek. 14:9)

"And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, and he shall go up and fall in Ramoth-gilead? And this one said this, and this one said that. And a spirit came forth and stood before Jehovah, and said, I surely will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and shall be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him, and also you are able. Go out and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and Jehovah has spoken evil as to you!"

"If a ram's horn is blowing in a city, will the people not also tremble? If there is a calamity in a city, has Jehovah not even done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"For My servant Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.(Isa. 45:4-7)

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"(Lam. 3:38)

"O LORD, why do you make us err from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?" (Isa. 63:17).

Right there is the kicker! One must understand since all mankind are equally hell bound, How does God choose those whom He will save? If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose. Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

Actually, God is not the respecter of persons in the sense of social status and nationality, which you will see if you examine the context of the passages that use such a phrase.

God choosing specific individuals, was not according to any foreseen merit, but rather simply according to his good pleasure (Eph. 1). God did not choose them because they were American, rich, poor, Greek, etc. (although he has chosen some from all of these categories), so, in that sense, God does not show partiality. The Scriptures simply do not give any reason for why God chose the elect other than the good pleasure of his will. That's part of why John Newton called grace "Amazing"! The whole concept of grace is that it is given to those who do not meet the qualifications for its reward.

Furthermore, others have posted arguments such as "chosen to be in Christ; not chosen to heaven", etc. Honestly, that is a very illogical statement. I'm assuming those who state such things believe that those predestined to be in Christ will also go to heaven (otherwise they weren't predestined to be in Christ). So, to be predestined to be in Christ is the same thing as to be predestined to enter the new earth.

Grace to you,
Taylor

No man can meet the qualifications for being the elect. God has made the elect by His own choosing for His good pleasure. Its like a vidio game and the programer gave the created beings the ability to choose right and wrong, and if they chose wrong there are penilities. The first player in the game, chose to believe an original player in the game that wanted to be the programmer. Hence all from the player a little lower than the first programmed (Satan), were then already given Satan's capacity for self and not the Programmer of all. So God chose to wipe them all off the hard drive, but God decided to save eight of His players from destruction by a great flood. They did not deserve to be saved, they just found favor in the Plan of God. What is Gods, the Programmers Plan? He wanted to be a Father and have son's In His house. But a created being does not have the Father's nature, for they were created not birthed, programmed with life, organic beings, not birthed by a Father's Seed.

God in His plan to show His willingness to give all that He had to give Him the Justification to give birth to sons. It is a Father's choice to bring forth birthed sons'. The son's have no choice in the matter, no child can say why did you make me. A Father does not consult with a birthing to ask them if they want to be born or not. My earthly father did not consult with me, to see if I wanted to be born and either did my heaven Father.

Consequently, all children of God are not consulted and they have no right to ask, why did you make me this way? Israel and all before the pivotal point in God's Plan, the Cross were not birthed sons', and could not be, because the Seed had not come yet. Once God was justified in giving birth to His son's, because He Fathered One only begotten Son and and He shed His Blood that God could then put that Seed, and be justified before all creation, Jesus Christ in the created beings and give them rebirth. Now The Programmer was a Father and He is still giving birth to son's for His House.

Now that we are sons' of God, He has already given us sonship in His House and made us to sit in heavenly places with the original begotten Son, and by His Seed we are son's of God and fellow heirs with the only Begotten Son who makes all God's children begotten son's by that Seed, being born again from above, the old created clay pot, become a temple of God by Life and Birth given of a perfect Father, Now we are sons' and we are perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect by the Seed that is birthed in us. Perfect, you ask, how can this be?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

God is much more that just a simple programmer, but know we can know the totality of who The Great Programmer is, Our Father.

Ephesians 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Praise God, in His programmed Plan before the foundation of the World He chose me to be one of His Birthed Children in Christ, and praise God for all that are His, in His perfect Son, of whom I am elected to be be a son also. This is His Plan and no one can say "why did you make me this way".

Psalms 2:7-12 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

Even unto Israel; Jeremiah 18:3-6 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Even unto all that dwell on the earth, all that are at the finger tips of the perfect Programmer, who are no longer Pots of Clay, but Temples of the Living God, In Christ Jesus our Lord and New birthed Life.

Romans 9:20-26 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

We should all be in travail of our birth until Christ be formed in all that are His, now and until His coming.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

We are no longer children of this world.

Luke 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the Seed. (Jesus Christ) "In You the Hope of Glory".

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The Great game of life by the Great and perfect Programmer, even very God our Father of New Birth.

In Christ: Phillip

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Right there is the kicker! One must understand since all mankind are equally hell bound, How does God choose those whom He will save? If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose. Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

Actually, God is not the respecter of persons in the sense of social status and nationality, which you will see if you examine the context of the passages that use such a phrase.

However, if God chooses some and not the rest when all are equal, that is showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward the ones whom He chose.

How do you get around that?

God choosing specific individuals, was not according to any foreseen merit, but rather simply according to his good pleasure (Eph. 1).

We all know God has a reason why He gives eternal life to people.
God is not arbitrary & being arbitrary is choosing for reasons based on ones own will without outide reference or rule.
Therefore, His choice must be based on something outside of Himself.
This "something" which is outside of God must be as He is, eternal, and must be according to His character. They are the terms He has fixed - Namely, on those only who submit to His terms that He has appointed

Do not be amazed at this, for we all know that if God's reason for election is based only on Himself, that would be arbitrary.
God can not chose just because He thinks it is right, He needs to have a foundation for His oppinion to be based.
This foundation or rule is what He had set as mandates & obligations one must do in order fot God to forgive, Justify/make righteous, Reconcile, Regenerate/Adopt, Sanctify, and Glorify.
What rules are there to be save?
According to Calvyies & Refomed, one must not do anything but keep sinning until god suddenly hits you with a irresistible grace and sudenly "regenerates" you & BOOM !!! saved.

However, the set condtions are given in Scripture, which I have already mentioned.

Y'all seem to think that one does not need to repent &/or have faith in order to be saved.
If you saynthat one needs them, you go off the deep end sgain and say that God must give them first.
You can not or will not explain how God could be justified in condemning for what He is responsible for.

God did not choose them because they were American, rich, poor, Greek, etc. (although he has chosen some from all of these categories), so, in that sense, God does not show partiality. The Scriptures simply do not give any reason for why God chose the elect other than the good pleasure of his will.

That's part of why John Newton called grace "Amazing"! The whole concept of grace is that it is given to those who do not meet the qualifications for its reward.

However, without these qulifications of faith & reoentance, one can not be save.
Yes, God can not save those who will not repent or put ones faith in & on Christ & what He has said & done.

Furthermore, others have posted arguments such as "chosen to be in Christ; not chosen to heaven", etc. Honestly, that is a very illogical statement. I'm assuming those who state such things believe that those predestined to be in Christ will also go to heaven (otherwise they weren't predestined to be in Christ). So, to be predestined to be in Christ is the same thing as to be predestined to enter the new earth.

Christinyou wrote:
No man can meet the qualifications for being the elect.

God has made the elect by His own choosing for His good pleasure.

No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

Only the wicked would command something imposible.

Friend, your demand has false assumptions in it, which is perhaps why some have not answered it.

God is not responsible for any unbelief. Sinful men are unbelieving from birth. The fact that the Lord graciously chooses to remove the stony hearts of some does not mean he is responsible for the unbelief of others.

Your other false assumption is that man is never given a command that is impossible for him. Actually, the fact that man is commanded things that are impossible for him is the very thing Paul describes as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. Man was commanded to keep the law perfectly, which, unless you are Christ, is impossible. Therefore, Paul said that the law cannot justify. The fact that it is impossible to keep the law is one means that God uses to drive men to Christ - per Galatians.

Likewise, it is impossible for sinful man to believe in Christ, unless the Lord gives him ears to hear and eyes to see the beauty of such a glorious Savior.

Only the wicked would command something impossible.

Friend, I warn you for your own spiritual good and a desire to see the Lord's flock walking in purity of life. I would be careful saying such things, for in doing so you may have called the Lord of glory wicked.

According to Calvyies & Refomed, one must not do anything but keep sinning until god suddenly hits you with a irresistible grace and sudenly "regenerates" you & BOOM !!! saved.

Which is exactly what happened to the Apostle Paul - and, by the grace of God, me.

Grace to you,
Taylor

TaylorOtwell wrote:

No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

Only the wicked would command something imposible.

Friend, your demand has false assumptions in it, which is perhaps why some have not answered it.

God is not responsible for any unbelief.

Don't say that it is man's falt for loosing the ability to have faith, because according to you man was born that way or, it was Adam's fault.

No one can be responsible for what one is born as, for what Adam has already done.

There is no false assumption, just sound reasoning.

Sinful men are unbelieving from birth.

Think before you type.

The fact that the Lord graciously chooses to remove the stony hearts of some does not mean he is responsible for the unbelief of others.

If all hearts are equally stony, if he chooses some & not others, He is being partial towards them who He chooses.

No one has yet given the reason for God's choosing.
All the answers have been arbitrary, please give a non-arbitrary reason if the ones that I have given are incorrect.

Your other false assumption is that man is never given a command that is impossible for him. Actually, the fact that man is commanded things that are impossible for him is the very thing Paul describes as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. Man was commanded to keep the law perfectly, which, unless you are Christ, is impossible. Therefore, Paul said that the law cannot justify. The fact that it is impossible to keep the law is one means that God uses to drive men to Christ - per Galatians.

Theses are the only commands the lost are able to obey & must obey, outside of Christ.
They are also the criteria in which God elects. If I am wrong, please give the correct answer which is not unarbitrary.

Likewise, it is impossible for sinful man to believe in Christ, unless the Lord gives him ears to hear and eyes to see the beauty of such a glorious Savior.

If you have sinned once, you prove our nature chosen by our created father Adam. If you have never sinned, you prove your obedience to the nature of our Father God. Only One man did that as I can see from Scripture, Jesus Christ. It is His nature that must be born again in the believer for God to be well pleased as God our Father. Adam chose our nature, God did not. God chose our nature in Christ Jesus that He would have son's in His House, which is God's whole arbitrary reason for birthing us in Christ Jesus before the very foundation of the world. God can be arbitrary one day and not arbitrary the next day, but all His decisions are His perfect will and for His pleasure.

Not to man, for the very statement that God is responsibile for your sinning or not sinning, proves your sinning and choosing sin, your choosing or not choosing, your saving faith or no faith, but in ourself, but who are you oh man to question the perfection of God. If you don't have faith unto salvation it is not Gods responsibility, it is yours. If you do have saving faith unto salvation, praise God. This is not the arbitrariness of God, but His Love that any should be saved and yet no want any to parish. I deserve hell by my own choice.
I attained salvation and Christ in me by God's Fatherhood of wanting sons' and His choice, not mine for no sinner could ever choose God, He makes that plain. He did not consult me in my birthing, He just did it. I don't know why or how or really when, except He says He did choose me to be in Christ before the foundation of the World. I don't deserve it or really did not even desire it. Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

His choosing, His will, His Son, He killed to get me. Why? I cannot fathom the depth of the willingness of God to kill a perfect Son to get one that is so imperfect and deserves Hell. But, He did it and all I can do is praise Him forever for doing it. These are the ones in whom we have to do, son's of God. The rest, never could, never would, and never will be son's of God by their own choosing. Not God predestinating them to hell. His only predestination is those He chose will be in His Son Jesus Christ. What ever it takes for those in Christ, God will supply by His own means, that the Son and the Father will be glorified within that means.

You can fight with yourself all your life and you will still not have the answer of why, Just believe and God will do the rest. When you see Him, ask Him that question and use the word arbitrary to the perfect God Jesus Christ, standing before you. I don't think you will get an answer, but will be put in kindergarten to bring forth the Christ that is in you.

Acts 17:28-30 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now we can repent, because we have the knowledge of what to repent of, by the Mind of Christ that is in us.

In His precious Son, whom He killed, just to get a sinner such as I. I cannot justify, or fathom the depth of the mind of God. But, I can praise Him, that He is God and there is no other, not even I who was deceived in my father and mother, Adam and Eve of whose nature I surely was of my father the devil.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic, can you not see in your own writing that you believe the will is enslaved to the affections... since you said yourself that, "The choice that we make will naturally follow our affections."

And if our wills always follow our affections, as you say, then we cannot will against our affections, and are consequently not 'free' at all, but at the mercy of our affections! We are willing only to do what we desire.

And this is exactly my point, that when Adam sinned, the nature of his being changed, and his affections were from then on given to sin. All who are born of Adam share his nature, his being and essence. They have received his fallen nature just as wholly as an acorn receives the full nature of the oak from which it came. Though the seed has not yet produced leaves and roots, it is latent with the full power of the tree, and will only ever grow into the form of its bearer. So says Genesis, "each one produced after its kind." Likewise, the sinful beings spawned from a sinner become only more visibly sinful. Though buds and blossoms of wickedness are not grown to maturity, the youngest soul of fallen man is essentially wicked.

Our Lord told us by John, "A bad tree cannot bear good fruits", and this is why we must become, as it were, new trees. We must have a new Parent, the Spirit, to receive a new nature by a new birth. Which of those analogies places the origin of regeneration in man's power? None.

I may have patience with those who hold opposing opinions because I for so long passionately plead the same views, but I thank God for revealing to me such amazing grace. I think of the billions who will justly perish, and then of His electing me to grace. Me?! Oh God, thank you!

theopenlife wrote:
Logic, can you not see in your own writing that you believe the will is enslaved to the affections... since you said yourself that, "The choice that we make will naturally follow our affections."

And if our wills always follow our affections, as you say, then we cannot will against our affections, and are consequently not 'free' at all, but at the mercy of our affections! We are willing only to do what we desire.

However, we are able to go against our affections.
True story:
A man went to the Philippines and married a woman, and in order to have her come to America, He would need to leave her there and come home to petition for her visa.
His affections were to stay in the Philippines and be with his wife.
Every part of him wanted to stay and not leave.
However, he chose what is right, went against his own affection and went home with out his newly wedded wife.
This man was not saved and did what you say is an incapability, inability.

[b]All I was stating which you misinterpreted was we naturally tend to go according to our affections, [u]but we are not bound to them.[/u][/b]

And this is exactly my point, that when Adam sinned, the nature of his being changed, and his affections were from then on given to sin.

Why don't you say that his affections were given to sin before he ate of that tree? They were in fact towards sin then.

Tell me, why do you say that we have a "sin nature" because we sin, but you do not say that Adam had a "sin nature" because He sinned?

What makes his reason for sinning any different that ours?

Furthermore, since Adam was restored back to God when God clothed him and taught him to sacrifice(which Adam taught his sons) you can not say that he passed anything down to us(if there could have been) as he was before being restored.

All who are born of Adam share his nature, his being and essence.

So says Genesis, "each one produced after its kind." Likewise, the sinful beings spawned from a sinner become only more visibly sinful.

Furthermore, sin is not hereditary, it is nothing to change a nature of man.

You do know that Adam sinned for the same reason that all mankind sins to day.
Adam sinned because he obeyed lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

I have Scripture to prove this if you haven't already read it.
Your theory is full of holes.

Though buds and blossoms of wickedness are not grown to maturity, the youngest soul of fallen man is essentially wicked.

Our Lord told us by John, "A bad tree cannot bear good fruits", and this is why we must become, as it were, new trees.

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourselves or in this world. If our root is of ourselves or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

One is only born immature, not born with a sin nature.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
Do not call our nature as a fruit, for sin is only a fruit.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of either three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

[color=990000]If the root is holy, so also the branches.[/color] [b]Romans 11:16b[/b]
[color=990000]As the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it remain in the vine,[/color] [b]John 15:4[/b]

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature decide what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
[b]James 1:24[/b] [color=990000]for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what [b]kind[/b] he was.[/color]

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, orange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, and it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

We must have a new Parent, the Spirit, to receive a new nature by a new birth.

If Adam can pass his nature down, so must we.
Again, your theory is full of holes.

Which of those analogies places the origin of regeneration in man's power? None.

I may have patience with those who hold opposing opinions because I for so long passionately plead the same views, but I thank God for revealing to me such amazing grace.

I think of the billions who will justly perish, and then of His electing me to grace. Me?! Oh God, thank you!

Do you ever figure the logical conclusion of your theology?

Christinyou wrote:
If you have sinned once, you prove our nature chosen by our created father Adam.

If you don't have faith unto salvation it is not Gods responsibility, it is yours.

If you do have saving faith unto salvation, praise God. This is not the arbitrariness of God, but His Love that any should be saved and yet no want any to parish. I deserve hell by my own choice.

for no sinner could ever choose God, He makes that plain.

Logic wrote,

"His affections were to stay in the Philippines and be with his wife.
Every part of him wanted to stay and not leave.
However, he chose what is right, went against his own affection and went home with out his newly wedded wife."

No, his greater affection was obviously to do what was right and necessary; therefore he willed to do as he did. My use of the term includes our divided wills to do several things, and that our final choice is for that which we suppose will give the most satisfaction.

Quote, Logic:

""" Re:

Quote:

"""Bad logic.
If your obey once, you prove our nature chosen by our created father God."""

Bad doctrine, God was not created, He is and was and always has been and will be God.

Even if He was created it matters not because He is the One that created us and gives us new birth in Christ Jesus, and He is the One that all will have to deal with.

One sin breaks the whole law and keeping just some of the Law or even keeping all the Law has no life in the doing. There is only life in Christ, by Him being born again in you. We live His life in us, because, "it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." The life I now live I live by Him that is in me, His life, His faith, His salvation, His love, His Everything to me, most especially His life in me, a real Person in His Spirit that is now my Spirit, not my soul-mind, that is the Holy Spirits realm where He brings Christ to life in my mind, by truth of, in, by and for and through the Spirit of Christ that is in me.

Philosophy and debating classes destroy the truth of God and keep us from the truth in Christ Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. Philosophy and debating tactics are Satan's forte, where he does his best work.

1 Corinthians 1:22-31 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. ((((((((Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.))))))))) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Like man can put restrictions on God and keep Him in his little box of unfairness of election and going after Calvin, etc. and broken logic and the philosophy of men.

What a waste, just believe and ask for truth and you won't get a stone for the bread of life.

In Christ: Phillip

yes i can say amen in some of those beautiful thoughts and comments by Benjoseph. yes we understand the notion of predestination according to God foreknowledge he knew before the foundation of the world who will believe and who will harden his heart and we don't know. the doctrine of predestination as it often taught it leaves men without any will and that is totally an error, for the word said

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

this passage of Romans comes just after the well know chapter9 were most people lean on to defend predestination doctrine.
yet chapter10 gives a clear understanding of a free choice.
God's will is that none get lost but all men to be save.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What were we predestinated to?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

There is no predestination to heaven or hell. There is only predestination into Christ. Even before the foundation, no man was not to have Jesus Christ in Him, as a nature of God's son's by birth. To be a Father there must be a birth.
Christ is the One God predestinated us to have as our nature and branches of the true vine.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Those whom are the Father's elected and chosen were; them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

This is our only predestination, out of Satan and into Christ. If you want to argue Predestination this must be where you start, In Christ. If you want to argue election, take it up with God.

In Christ: Phillip

Vincent Cheung on Eph. 1:3-14

G. H. Kersten writes:

From the scriptures quoted it is very evident that reprobation is more than letting one lie in the state wherein he fell. It is a predetermination of the state of perdition, both of angels and of men, for God also determined to decree some of the angels to perdition, reserving them in everlasting chains under darkness unto
the judgment of the great day. The reprobate are appointed,ordained, and fitted to destruction..."

Reprobation is therefore no more a passive decree than election is; it is an active decree.The Cause of reprobation does not lie in anything outside of God,not even in sin, but in God's absolute sovereignty.Thus reprobation is the independent decree of God from eternity, the
sovereign, the decreeing God Himself. It is an act of the Father's good pleasure...

Sin, unbelief, hardness, and whatever else is mentioned as a reason for the righteous judgment of God, all follows the decree of God,and is not the cause of the decree. God is sovereign in election, but also in rejection. Both depend on nothing but God's sovereign pleasure, and, being God's decree they cannot be dependent upon
some one or some thing outside of God...

As election is not general, neither is reprobation...It concerns certain people, known to God by name.

On this subject, Paul writes as follows:

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father,our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad – in order that God's purpose in election
might stand: not by works but by him who calls – she was told,"The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have
compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore,depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose,
that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did
you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath – prepared
for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory – even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:10-24)

From this passage we can derive at least four points that are relevant to our discussion on
election and reprobation.

First, reprobation is scriptural. Contrary to the claims of some commentators who acknowledge election but deny reprobation, the Bible teaches both, and teaches them in the same passage here.

Second, reprobation is individual. Contrary to the claims of those who insist that
reprobation must be collective even if it is scriptural, Paul discusses Jacob and Esau as
individuals – not just the nations that would arise from them, but "the twins."

Third, reprobation is unconditional. When discussing divine election, we already pointed
out on the basis of this passage that election to salvation is unconditional. That is, God
selected the individuals for salvation not because of anything foreseen in them. But Paul
is also addressing reprobation in this same passage, and in the same way; therefore,
reprobation is unconditional in the same sense that election is unconditional.

...Paul says that God had decided to treat Jacob and Esau differently "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad." Just as election is not based on "anything good" in the
person, reprobation is not based on "anything…bad" in the person, as if the person could
create and operate himself, with God passively watching him.

Fourth, reprobation is active. Many people claim that even if reprobation is scriptural and
individual, it must nevertheless be a passive decree; however, Scripture teaches otherwise.

Paul writes that just as some are "prepared in advance for glory," others are "prepared for
destruction." Because of grammatical considerations but also their theological biases,
many have suggested that perhaps "prepared for destruction" is meant in the passive
sense, so that it is as if the reprobates prepared themselves for destruction.

However, a variation in expression does not always signify a variation in sense. For
example, suppose I were to say, "I bought this book for myself; the other was bought for
my friend." This does not mean that whereas I bought the first book, someone else bought
the second one for my friend, or worse yet, the second book bought itself for my friend.
The context clearly shows that I bought both books – one for myself, and the other for my
friend.

The false interpretation seems to require the constant use of rigid expressions. Instead of
saying, "I bought this book for myself, but the other was bought for my friend," I would
be always required to say, "I bought this book for myself, and bought the other for my
friend."

That said, the context of Romans 9 is as follows. Paul writes in verse 18, "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." It does not say that the people harden themselves. Many want to make it say this, but it does not say it.

Then, Paul writes in verse 21, "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Surely the pots do not make themselves! But this is the context that Paul gives us by which we must understand the expression, "prepared for destruction" (v. 22).

In addition, God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (v. 13). This also indicates that
reprobation is just as active as election, that just as God decided to treat Jacob a certain
way without basing this decision on anything found in Jacob, God decided to treat Esau a
certain way also without basing this decision on anything found in Esau. As if it changes
anything, commentators are quick to suggest that "hate" here means merely "love less."
Fine, but what does that mean? And how much less? Spinach I love, but eggplant I love
less. How much less? I hate it.

Many Reformed theologians teach that the difference between election and reprobation is
that whereas God must actively select and summon out the elect for salvation, he merely passes by the reprobates, as if this exonerates God from some horrible and shameful crime. But active reprobation is no crime – it is God's righteous decree to reveal his wrath and his power (v. 22), and to show forth his mercy toward the elect (v. 23), all for his glory. Thus all things are done by God's will and power, and he needs no excuse for his decrees and actions.

Although there is indeed a difference between election and reprobation, both are equally
active. The real difference is that there is an additional step in the execution of God's
decree for the elect. Specifically, in eternity God conceived of and decreed the creation of
both the elect individuals and the reprobate individuals, and decreed that both would fall
into sin through Adam, but he also decreed that he would save the elect through Christ.

When Adam fell into sin, both the elect and the reprobate individuals fell with him. The
reprobate individuals are then in their divinely-decreed position, prepared for destruction,
whereas the elect individuals await the application of redemption in God's appointed
time.

Our opponents then object, "But does this not make God the author of sin?" Many
Reformed theologians are quick to deny this charge, even including those who affirm
active reprobation, and they make all kinds of distinctions and qualifications to distance
God from sin and evil. But since the phrase "author of sin" is not even found in the
Bible, I wonder why they are so quick to invent or acknowledge an unbiblical phrase, and
then scramble to say, "God is not that."

Most people do not stop to consider what the phrase means. Specifically, what is meant
by "author"? When God inspired the Scripture, he did not physically take up the pen to
write, but the creatures did (caused by God, of course). So if you mean by the "authors"
of Scripture those who physically took up the pen, then the human writers are the authors.
But if you refer to the source of the content – the thoughts and the words – and the very
cause that made the human writers take up the pen, and the very power that moved the
pen, then God is the author of Scripture.

So if the question is whether the doctrine of predestination makes God a sinner, as in one
who commits sin or evil, then we must deny it.

But if this is what is meant, then let us
rephrase the question to say "sinner" or "evildoer" instead of "author of sin."

Now, since God is the sole standard of right and wrong, then for him to be a sinner, he would have to establish a moral law for himself, then break it, and then judge himself to be wrong.

However, Scripture asserts that he is righteous in all that he does.

But if the question is whether God is the ultimate or even the immediate cause of sin,
then we must affirm it, and in this sense, and for those who for some reason want to use
the phrase, then God is indeed the "author of sin," because he is necessarily the author of
all things. The common assumption is that there is something "wrong" with saying that God is the author of sin. However, since God is the sole standard of right and wrong, it is wrong for God to be the author of sin only if God himself has decreed that it is wrong for him to be the author of sin. It is not up to the likes of us to say that it is wrong, and just because some people assume that it is wrong does not make it wrong.

Theologians are fond of appealing to "secondary causes" to distance God from sin and evil. They say that God indeed causes sin and evil, but he does it only through secondary causes, and thus he indirectly causes them. However, this does not really distance God from sin and evil because, to begin with, each time God must directly make the
secondary causes work the way he wants them to work, and he must directly make the objects supposedly affected by the secondary causes respond the way he wants them to respond. Otherwise, it would be as if we acknowledge a metaphysical principle or power that is different from God but that is as powerful as God, which is dualism.

Now, appeals to secondary causes are legitimate as long as it is correctly applied;however, if the intention is to distance God from the event or the effect (such as murder,rape, etc.) as a way to do theodicy, then the approach fails, because nothing can really distance God this way. It is biblically wrong and metaphysically impossible.

Therefore,in this sense – in the sense that God is necessarily the author of all things – we must
affirm that God is the author of sin. But we will add that this does not generate an apologetic problem, because there is no rational or biblical argument showing that there is anything wrong with it; rather, God and his actions are righteous by definition.

The doctrine of predestination is indeed controversial, not because Scripture is unclear or
that there are good arguments on all sides, but it is controversial chiefly because sinful
man, taught by Satan, demands salvation from God and yet refuses to give him all the
glory. Instead, he reserves a determinative role for himself, asserting that God makes
salvation at best possible, but actual for no one until the person permits God to save him.
He convinces himself that he is the master of his soul, and that no one can take it out of
his hands. Jesus said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you" (John
15:16); in contrast, sinful man retorts, "You have 'chosen' me only because you know that
I would choose you, so that my will logically precedes and determines your will!" He
says, "If conversion is necessary, then by my will I will turn against my (evil) will, by my
might I will escape from Satan's hold and sin's grip, and by my power I will turn to Christ
and permit him to save me, as if I need him at all."

Sinful man may resent the above as a misrepresentation, and he may hide his real
thoughts and motives with beautiful words and reverent expressions, but underneath all
of that rest such wickedness and defiance that would be satisfied with nothing less than
making himself the center of the universe, so that even God must heed and serve him.
And thus "free will" is Satan's slogan, and Arminianism is his creed. On the other hand,
Christianity and Calvinism (which faithfully expresses the teachings of Christianity)
affirm, "Salvation comes from the LORD" (Jonah 2:9) – that is, really and wholly from
God, and not just partly or even mostly from him.

Yes, the doctrine is controversial, so that even some who claim to agree with us suggest that we should not preach about it. But then do they really agree with us? If what we have been saying is correct, then predestination is inseparably interwoven with any adequate exposition of biblical theology and of the gospel itself. Their suggestion insults God, as if he was stupid, or that he erred in revealing this doctrine to us through the Scripture. In contrast to their impiety, Luther writes:

It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He
foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will...

As I said above, what may be found in or proved by the sacred writings is both plain and wholesome, and so may safely be published, learned and known – and, indeed, should be. So your statement, that some things should not be exposed to everyone's hearing, if made with reference to the contents of Scripture, is
false; and if you spoke of other things, your remark was irrelevant and out of place, and a waste of your paper and time.

As for the argument that predestination is best left untaught because of the tumult and
disunity that it causes, Luther replies:

What a fulsome speaker you are! – but utterly ignorant of what you are talking about. In a word, you treat this discussion as if the issue
at stake between us was the recovery of a debt, or some other trivial item, the loss of which matters far less than the public peace,and therefore should not so upset anyone as to make him hesitate to give and take, yielding the point if need be, in order to ensure that no occasion for public disorder arises. You make it clear that
this carnal peace and quiet seems to you far more important than faith, conscience, salvation, the Word of God, the glory of Christ,and God himself.

Let me tell you, therefore – and I beg you to let this sink deep into your mind – I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequence, is at stake in this discussion; one so crucial and
fundamental that it ought to be maintained and defended even at the cost of life, though as a result the whole world should be, not just thrown into turmoil and uproar, but shattered in chaos and reduced to nothingness.

If you do not grasp that, if it leaves you unmoved, then mind your own business, and leave those to grasp it and be moved by it to whom it is given of God!

Some will then say that even if the doctrine must be taught, perhaps it should be taught only to the mature saints, or at least only to believers, but certainly not mentioned in evangelism.

However, Jesus flatly tells his hearers, including the unbelievers, that no one can know
the Father unless "the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matthew 11:27), that no one can come
to him for salvation unless the Father "draws him" (John 6:44) and "has enabled him"
(John 6:65).

This means that it is fully legitimate to preach, even to unbelievers,"Although you will be saved only if you come to Christ and believe the gospel, unless God chooses and enables you, you cannot come and will not believe."

In addition, Jesus says to the unbelievers, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26).

This means that it is fully appropriate to preach, even to unbelievers, "If you do not
believe, it is because you are not one of God's people, but one of the reprobates, destined
for destruction."

Would this not offend some hearers, and drive them away? Yes, preaching like this will
offend the reprobates and drive them away, which will also mean that we will have fewer false converts in our churches, who cause us unnecessary and (because they are unregenerate) unfixable problems.

But surely the elect would rejoice to hear about God's sovereign power and grace, revealed for his glory and for our salvation. As Paul writes,
"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" (Romans 10:15).

There he cites Isaiah 52:7, and the message in that verse is "Your God reigns!" Thus the
sovereign rule and grace of God is the message of the gospel.

This is what we find in the ministry of Christ, so that when he says, "I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him," many people "turned back and no longer followed him"; in contrast, Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God" (John 6:65-69).

Therefore, because of the teaching of Scripture, the example of Christ, the doctrine of the apostles, and even the preferable effect, both election and reprobation are suitable and desirable subjects in teaching and in evangelism.

The truth is that while many Calvinists are hesitant, the Arminians are boldly proclaiming
their false gospel of free will, that the people must save themselves on the basis of what
Christ has done, that God has taken the first step but now the final and decisive step is
theirs to take, and that God can do nothing in their lives without their consent.

In the first place, for us to neglect any part of the biblical system of truth is a great sin, especially such a foundational doctrine, and in the light of the Arminians' audacity, not to boldly preach predestination and sovereign grace in all contexts would be devastating, and has
been devastating, to the church's strength and progress.

Some people treat this as a secondary issue, too trivial to bicker over; however, we have
shown that the doctrine is not trivial, nor is it just a matter of preference or perspective.

Rather, we are considering the very nature of God and the gospel. Is our God as the Bible reveals him – sovereign and almighty – or is he like the pagan mythological gods – limited and struggling?

Is salvation really "from the Lord," or is it partly from God and partly from man?

Luther writes that the issue is "of eternal consequence." He calls the topic "the real
thing," "the essential issue," "the hinge on which all turns," and "the vital spot,"
compared to which other disputes are but "extraneous issues" and "trifles."

If you are a Christian, design your program for theological studies accordingly; if you are a pastor, set your agenda for preaching with this in mind.

Luther and the Reformers understood the nature of the dispute and its implications, for without an absolutely sovereign God who does all things by his sovereign power and saves his people solely by his sovereign grace,there would be no Christianity.

Therefore, let us not be ashamed of the gospel – the true and the whole gospel – that God saves his chosen ones by his grace, according to his will and his pleasure, and for his glory.

[size=xx-large][color=CC3300]No God Does not![/color][/size]

No God Does not!

It is a great sacrilege to impute that the God of Israel is a tyrant. Let no man be mesmerized into this profanity even if some great men or an angel had made this blunt attribution in their discourses.